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- [00:21]
Tommy Vitor
Welcome to Pod Save America. I'm Tommy Vitor. As we speak, the MAGA media world is fracturing and many of its leading voices are desperately trying to figure out what a post Trump MAGA movement will mean for them. For some, this is about business. They want to know if they can maintain the same level of clicks, of ad sales, of paid promotion deals in a post Trump political world. But for others, it's about influence and a desire to steer the Republican Party to a new place, in some cases a much more extreme place. What we're talking about is ultimately a battle for the sole and attention of the MAGA movement and it's being fought as we speak in the podcast, YouTube and TikTok trenches, often on shows or on platforms that most Democrats have never heard of, but have enormous reach and influence in conservative circles, especially younger conservative circles. So to help me understand and track where the MAGA movement is going, I'm joined today by Will Sommer from the Bulwark. Will's newsletter, False Flag is a twice weekly deep dive into right wing online culture and the communities around it. And it is a must read for me every week. He has an unparalleled understanding of who makes up this world, where it's going, what they're talking about, the weird, petty, pathetic infighting between them. It is fascinating stuff. Now, unfortunately for all of us, right wing media is incredibly popular, which is why we here at Crooked Media are trying to create a progressive alternative. The best way you can help us is to become a friend of the pod subscriber. For about 10 bucks a month, you get bonus episodes of Pod Save America. You, you get ad free episodes. You get deep dives into the latest polling data from Dan Pfeiffer and tons more bonus content. And you also can get discounted tickets to our upcoming CrookedCon conference and fun on site perks. So check that out. Go to crooked.com friends to learn more. And now, here's my conversation with Will Sommer. So, will, your coworker Sarah Longwell got a bunch of grief recently for saying that a surprising name keeps coming up in her focus groups when she's asking people who they think should run for president. Candace Owen. And again, this is not people saying that they like Candace's content. It's voters saying they would vote for Candace Owens for president. Now, I'm sure people listening to this are thinking like, shut up, Tommy. That is dumb. This is insane. She is bonkers. And to them I say, sure, I agree with you. But I think the point is that a lot of people don't. So just to start with the basics, who is Candace Owens and why do you think she is so popular and influential to the point where people want to run for president?
- [02:53]
Will Sommer
Sure. So Candace Owens is a woman who emerged. She's from sort of the right wing media ecosystem that kind of these classic characters working for people like Dennis Prager and Ben Shapiro. And then for the past year or so, past two years, she's become this sort of insurgent right wing conspiracy theorist, very anti Semitic. She pushes a lot of crazy ideas about, most notably Charlie Kirk's assassination. She used to work with him and they were friends. And she's sort of been, you know, building this YouTube empire off of both conspiracy theories and also sort of more mainstream celebrity gossip coverage. And so I think she's managed to really sort of diversify her audience beyond just sort of people who listen to talk radio or watch Fox News.
- [03:37]
Tommy Vitor
Yeah, I mean, so Candace's biggest, or at least sort of like splashiest, most recent interview was a surprising one. It was with Hunter Biden of all people. Before that, like you said, she spent months and months and months just relentlessly focused on the assassination of Charlie Kirk and spreading conspiracy theories about it of all shapes and sizes. Like planes were tracking Charlie, that there was like a false flag operation. She seemed to suggest that Erica Kirk, Charlie Kirk's wife, might have been the killer. And then before that, there was this endless series of videos she did alleging that French President Emmanuel Macron's wife is in fact a man. So just for folks who haven't listened to Candace, much like, here's a clip of Candace on Piers Morgan's show that I think will give you a sense of the vibe that comes out of a lot of our content. Let's watch.
- [04:22]
Candace Owens (clip)
Why are we pretending that we don't know why we ask questions like why you're a journalist, you know, you're like, what's going on? What's going on? You want to know why these planes were tracking Charlie? And that is the reason why people are watching my show, because I'm the only one not treating them like they're absolute idiots who don't have two eyes, who believe in magic bullet, and who understands that Egyptian planes should not have been tracking Charlie even three times this year would be an anomaly. Okay, They've been tracking him with, we don't know where it's going to happen, but we are going to keep asking questions until we get clear answers.
- [04:54]
Tommy Vitor
So she was yelling about Egyptian planes tracking Charlie Kirk. I mean, like, I. What Is her beat you mentioned? I mean, she does like celebrity stuff, she does pop culture stuff. But is it, is her beat just conspiracy? Like, how would you define it?
- [05:07]
Will Sommer
Yeah, you know, it's interesting. I mean, I think this, she has sort of cohered around this idea that there are these sort of pedophile Epstein class powers that be. They're very closely linked to Israel, closely linked to sort of centuries old Jewish cults and cabals. I mean, you mentioned Brigitte Macron. It's not just that Brigitte Macron is trans, but it's that like the Macrons are part of this ancient Jewish network going back to the Middle Ages at the Frankists. The Frankus. Yes, exactly.
- [05:36]
Tommy Vitor
Too deep in the shit.
- [05:38]
Will Sommer
Yes. I mean, even if you listen to it, it often like I can get this sense of. It can be kind of hard to describe because in part because it's just. You listen to it and it's, it's like so crazy. And she kind of, she doesn't really bother to like make a coherent theory per se. She more just kind of throws stuff out. She goes, oh, isn't that weird? Isn't that weird? And then suddenly you find yourself that she's walked you to Erica Kirk murder her husband, or Brigitte Macron is trans. And she often will sort of abandon things as they're disproven. So like she'll say, I think that guy in the crowd at the assassination is acting weird. And then that guy will have an excuse and she'll say, oh, well, never mind, you know, moving on, you know, and, and so there isn't so much one conspiracy theory as this general sense of like anti Semitic, hateful, this sense of like the cabal runs the world.
- [06:24]
Tommy Vitor
Yeah, I mean like when I listen to Candace's stuff, I find myself getting lost in the sauce and not able to follow her and we're like down all these conspiracy roads. But the reason I led with her and her and our next subject, Tucker Carlson, is because the normies in my life who text me about politics mention those two the most. So like, much like Sarah's focus group, like Candace, I feel like is very influential. And also she's been waging this battle against Turning Point usa TP USA ever since Kirk's assassination. And tpusa, for those who don't know, was an incredibly influential media, political kind of voter turnout organization. But now she seems to have done some damage to it, or I guess that's the question. I mean, how much damage do you think Candace has done to TP USA through this kind of ongoing fighting.
- [07:09]
Will Sommer
Yeah. I mean, I think Candace and sort of the conspiracy theorists around her have actually done a lot of damage to Turning Point. I mean, they have created this sense of, you know, after the Charlie Kirk assassination, there was a lot of goodwill towards Turning Point, a lot of sense that I think both Trump and that organization were going to capitalize on after the murder. But instead, Candace has said, well, maybe Erica Kirk killed her husband. Maybe this organization, you know, she's picked out all these individual executives. Maybe they were involved in these murders. And I think, you know, anecdotally, if you look at, like, groups of conservative moms, they'll say, oh, well, we were going to order some Turning Point shirts, but now, you know, we don't want to be associated with them, stuff like that. I mean, I think it's been at. At best, for a Turning Point, a big distraction. I think it's been a lot more damaging.
- [07:52]
Tommy Vitor
Yeah. Do you think Candace actually has political ambitions? Because it seems like she kind of flirts with maybe running for office in some of her answers, but I don't know, maybe that's just a way to keep yourself in the news.
- [08:02]
Will Sommer
You know, that's a good question. I don't think it's hard for me to imagine her running just because I think she has such a good thing going right now. I mean, she's making so much money. She's making, you know, tens of thousands of dollars per video. She's putting out four or five videos a week. I mean, you know, I think she has far more influence at the point where, you know, I think it' relatively credible reports that Macron complained to Trump and asked him to have Candace cut these things off. I mean, that. That shows you sort of the influence that she enjoys. So I think she could run for office if she wanted, but I think right now I think she'd be foolish to do it. I think she's happy right where she
- [08:36]
Tommy Vitor
is until the French clean her out in this libel lawsuit.
- [08:40]
Will Sommer
Yes. And now some turning. You know, at least one Turning Point person is suing her. I think there's more to come. You know, her husband is this mega wealthy British guy, so they may be able to weather that. But I think ultimately these lawsuits, you know, just as Alex Jones was to avoid it until he couldn't, I think she could face the same issue.
- [08:56]
Tommy Vitor
Yeah, not fun. Okay, let's turn to another sort of heavyweight in this fight for the future of maga, which is Tucker Carlson. So Tucker's career arc is fascinating to me. He was widely viewed as one of the best magazine writers of his generation. Then he bumped along in various TV jobs for a while, including stints at CNN and msnbc. Those sort of eventually ended or failed in some way. Then he got picked up at Fox and was kind of like a weekend journeyman until he got on the Trump train early and then parlayed that support relationship. You know, I don't know, just focus into the highest rated show in the history of cable news before he was suddenly fired in 2023. And then after getting fired, Tucker started his own news network and show. He currently has about 5.6 million YouTube subscribers, which is more than his old show in terms of the aggregate ratings. So do with that information what you will. Obviously not all of those people are watching every episode, but it's a lot. And then more recently, he's kind of broken with Trump on some issues, particularly on Iran, in US Policy towards Israel. But a lot of the critiques were at times very harsh and very personal. So, you know, Will, in your opinion, where does Tucker rank in terms of kind of influence in this media world we're talking about today? Is he, is he number one?
- [10:09]
Will Sommer
You know, it can be hard to quite figure out. I mean, I think he's very influential. I think he sits at a unique point which is, you know, someone like Candace Owens, someone like Nick Fuentes, people kind of further than that on the right or more into conspiracy theories. They're sort of existing in this kind of insurgent, anti Trump, from the right world world. Tucker sort of straddles both camps. I mean, he has a lot of influence in the White House. He's still seen as enough of a mainstream conservative figure to appear at Turning Point USA conventions, for example. On the other hand, he has this kind of growing credibility with the, the anti maga, right. You know, what might call themselves the America first movement. People like Marjorie Taylor Greene Fuentes, Candace. And so I think he's sort of uniquely able there to mainstream these really hateful and toxic ideas like having Nick Fuentes on his show for a very nice sit down interview, while also, let's say, ties to the Heritage foundation and getting support from them. So in that way, I think he's very powerful. And as you said, he also has a massive audience just on his own.
- [11:05]
Tommy Vitor
Yeah. So let's watch a recent clip from the Israeli ambassador to the United Nations, Danny Dannon, talking about a phone call he got from Tucker Carlson. Then I'll ask you a question about it.
- [11:16]
Will Sommer
He told me, ambassador, can you please take me off the list. And I was shocked. I told him, what are you talking about? He told me, I'm being attacked by the Jews, so maybe you have like a list. Can you take me off the list? So I waited for a minute and I told him, Mr. Carlson, we don't have a list. You are being attacked because you're spreading lies.
- [11:41]
Tommy Vitor
It's an interesting phone call there. So of all the people we'll discuss today, Tucker seems to be among the most interested in shaping policy, or at least the Republican Party's policy views, especially US Policy towards Israel. He's been a fierce critic of Israeli Prime Minister Bibi Netanyahu. He's been a fierce critic of the war in Iran, of US Policy towards Israel generally. At times, as you mentioned, I think that criticism has veered into anti Semitic territory and some really troubling language. Do you think that his general motive is policy focused or is this political? Is this like kind of. Tucker knows where the puck is going and he's skating there by becoming more isolationist.
- [12:21]
Will Sommer
Yeah, I think throughout his career, I mean, you mentioned these kind of different changes he's done, you know, whether it's like a writer at the Weekly Standard or now or then in Fox News or now this, I think he's a guy who is very interested. Maybe it's a mix. I think he's trying to stay ahead of things. I think he recognizes that things like the Iran war are going to be unpopular with Republicans and only get more so as the years goes on. So he's trying to avoid associating himself with that. But I think also being fired from Fox News really sort of radicalized him and sort of caused him to seek out these more extreme politics where he could sort of stake out his own, his own position in a way that wouldn't just look like another Fox News type person.
- [12:58]
Tommy Vitor
Do you think? I mean, a lot of people worry or wonder if he is setting himself up for a run for president. And, you know, look, I can make a pretty compelling case for it. I mean, he's a huge media figure. He is probably universal name ID in the Republican Party. He has, I think, carved out this interesting lane to. I don't know how, how big the lane is, but there is an isolationist lane in the Republican Party. Right. And Trump, you know, was courting them and then went back on everything he told them in the campaign when he went to war with Iran. Do you view what Tucker's doing is some sort of, like, political setup?
- [13:31]
Will Sommer
I think it's very possible that he could run for president or some other office. I mean, I think if we look in 2028, the lane for someone who opposed the war, who's kind of a more populist figure, is pretty open. You know, J.D. vance, I think is going to be damaged both by his association with the Trump administration, but also by associations with people like Peter Thiel, all these kind of tech oligarch. And so I think if you have someone like Tucker Carlson who could say, oh, I hate AI data centers and, you know, we got to go back to, you know, he's up in this cabin in Maine. He says, you know, I just want to have, you know, grow my family and, you know, you know, go back to the traditional American ways. I think that would appeal to some people. I mean, I think it would be a risk for him to run because potentially he could kind of get crushed like a bug somehow and then, you know, lose his audience. But I think more so than Candace or someone else, other media figures, I think he's the one I see most likely as potentially running.
- [14:22]
Tommy Vitor
Yeah, I mean, it's fascinating because so many people run for president knowing they're going to lose, but they know they'll hand them a giant megaphone. And like, Tucker has a giant megaphone. It's totally unclear to me. Like you were saying with Candace earlier, like, would getting in politics benefit or hurt them because they're such heavyweights already, it's just not obvious.
- [14:40]
Will Sommer
Yeah, I agree. And you know, he might also throw himself behind, Gosh, like maybe Joe Kent, the counter terror chief who resigned. I mean, seems like someone who's potentially setting up a run for office. So I think on. On the other hand, you know, he was very supportive of J.D. vance, only to see that kind of fizzle out and JD Vance to support the war. So I could maybe if he's like, you know, I got to get this done myself.
- [14:59]
Tommy Vitor
Yeah. So Will, before we keep going, can I just ask, how the hell did you get on this beat? Because we've spoken a bunch of times. Look, I have a. I have a whole bucket of questions coming up about the kind of like Nazi adjacent media space you end up having to consume all that content. You have to learn about all these terrible people. How did you get into this, this focus?
- [15:18]
Will Sommer
So I was a sort of young teen Republican in Texas, and I just had a huge. I consumed a lot of conservative media, talk radio and Fox News and all this. And then during the second, the George W. Bush administration. Administration, you know, my politics change. I thought it was just Awful. He did such a bad job. But I still was like, you know, I still had such a passion for right wing media. And then, you know, a couple years went by and then I was following figures like Ben Shapiro, whose whole thing was that he was a virgin at the time. And, you know, wasn't that novel? It was all these characters. And then in 2016, I was at a party and people were like, have you heard about Laura Loomer and Milo Yiannopoulos? And I thought, oh my gosh, people are finally interested in these people. And so I started writing about them.
- [15:55]
Tommy Vitor
No way. So you were like, I'm just gonna make this my thing and focus on these folks.
- [15:58]
Will Sommer
Yeah. And, you know, I mean, there's, you know, as we've discovered, I mean, there's really sort of an endless well of bizarre stories about them.
- [16:05]
Tommy Vitor
Well, sometimes I'll be, I'll find myself sitting in bed with headphones in, not speaking to my wife at 10pm Because I'm streaming something horrible and I wonder what it's doing to my mental health. Does it, does it impact yours? Are you able to divorce the two?
- [16:19]
Will Sommer
No. It's a good question. I think I just have a really high tolerance. I really enjoy the, the twists and the turns, you know, whether it's kind of the personalities or appearance of a new idea or ideology. Similarly, you know, my, I do a lot while I'm cooking for my kids. And so I run through these videos and my wife will come down and see, you know, five people hunched over a computer, you know, broadcasting something, and she'll say, you know, that certainly looks like something you'd be watching.
- [16:43]
Tommy Vitor
Speaking of great replacements, we're going to do onions instead of scallions in this recipe. Honey.
- [16:57]
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- [17:05]
Tommy Vitor
It's been a minute.
- [17:06]
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- [17:45]
Tommy Vitor
Because a lot of people battle with their significant other about the temperature in the room. And during the day, it's okay at night. This is an existential war for your sl.
- [17:53]
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- [18:34]
Will Sommer
Genuinely.
- [18:34]
Ad Read Host
It's been great. I have the Chilipad 1.0 right now. I'm going to upgrade to the 2.0.
- [18:39]
Tommy Vitor
I might have to do that soon.
- [18:40]
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- [19:02]
Tommy Vitor
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- [19:15]
Tommy Vitor
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Tommy Vitor
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- [19:57]
Tommy Vitor
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- [19:58]
Tommy Vitor
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- [21:10]
Will Sommer
You know, I would say Megan Kelly is much more mercenary even than Tucker Carlson is. I think she is someone who, you know, they're very similar in some ways. They both came out of Fox News in these kind of more, such as it is moderate, more traditional, conservative environments. But I think she is really seeing the way the wind is blowing. And she, number one, doesn't want to get targeted by figures like Candace Owens or Nick Fuentes because I think she sees them correctly as much more dynamic and much more able to make people look like dinosaurs in the way that Ben Shapiro or Mark Levin have kind of been sidelined. And so I think she really wants to stay out of their way. She's also, I think, is trying to ride this wave of discontent with Trump. And look, I think if Trump was at, like, 60 approval, I'm sure she wouldn't be saying, you know, shut up with the tweets and stop threatening to destroy Iranian civilization. But I think right now, she's recognizing where the wind is blowing and trying to stay on the right side of things.
- [22:00]
Tommy Vitor
Yeah. You mentioned the Daily Wire. There's been a lot of coverage lately of the decline of the Daily Wire and in particular, the decline in viewership for America's favorite virgin podcast host, Ben Shapiro. Last week or last month, sorry, the Daily Wire CEO stepped down. He handed the reins to this game show producer and host named Mike Richards, who I think is his claim to fame is almost becoming the host of Jeopardy. Before, after. Until some, like old quotes from a podcast he did resurfaced that were offensive and got him bounced. Ben Shapiro has reportedly lost at least 80,000 YouTube followers this year alone, which is, you know, that's remarkable. How real do you think these issues are for the Daily Wire? And to what do you attribute their decline?
- [22:46]
Will Sommer
I think they're very real for the Daily Wire. I think there's maybe, let's say, two challenges they're facing. I mean, it's striking because just a few years ago, Jeremy Boreing, who is the co founder of the Daily Wire and really kind of became the face of the company is for a while, as Ben Shapiro sort of receded, he was being profiled as like, the new Hollywood mogul. In Nashville, where they're based, he was gonna change the face of entertainment. They built out all these streaming shows. They built out a Game of Thrones knockoff that was like his passion project for it was like several million dollars per episode. It went way over budget.
- [23:17]
Tommy Vitor
The Pendragon cycle. It was tens of millions of dollars over budget.
- [23:21]
Will Sommer
Yes. It's about King Arthur. He doesn't show up in the first season, but, you know, they felt really confident that there would be more. It was all about Merlin. And so this was a dream of his that he had had since college to make this show. So, and I mean, it looks great, but, you know, very expensive. They made a bluey knockoff starring chinchillas to win over kids to conservatism. So they had all these side projects, and that cost them enormous amounts of money. So he got booted last year Essentially over these cost overruns. Now they're kind of trying to retrench in a much more traditional kind of like, we're going to have a couple podcasts, maybe we're going to have some documentaries from Matt Walsh where he skewers liberals. But. But I think the bigger problem they're facing is that, you know, the kind of politics that Ben Shapiro wants to promote, which is sort of this, like, anti. Anti Trump, he's like, you know, a little cautious about Trump. He's not a hardcore Trump guy like Sean Hannity. But on the other hand, he agrees with things like the war in Iran. He's very pro Israel. And I think both of those that he's kind of wedged here between. He can't go anti Trump, but he also, like, doesn't love Trump all that much. So he's kind of trapped. And I think that that point of view is just not that popular right now on the right. And then it's losing him audience.
- [24:31]
Tommy Vitor
Yeah, I mean, it's interesting. You read these reports, and there are these amazing financial challenges, like you mentioned. I mean, like, I can't get enough of the stories about the Pendragon cycle and just, like, the reality that so many of these guys are just theater kids who didn't quite make it and who are trying to revamp their theater kidness in the conservative world. But the Daily wire reportedly had $200 million in annual revenue in, like, 2024. Maybe that was a projection. I remember reading about their business success and worrying, like, how it compared to us, you know, their. Their subscriber count. And then just something seems to have, like, fallen off a cliff. And I don't know what it is, but, I mean, I. I think Ben Shapiro lives in Florida, but the company is in Nashville. Maybe there's just sort of, like, a lack of business alignment as well as the sort of, like, ideological and content misalignment with the party that you mentioned there.
- [25:21]
Will Sommer
Yeah, I mean, I think Puck had some reporting on how basically the guy who followed Jeremy Boring was also seen as kind of bumbling around. There's been a lot of internal discord between Ben Shapiro and the other founders. But I think what we're looking at is that the Daily Wire will probably retrench as something more like the Daily Caller, like Steven Crowder. I mean, speaking of, like, failed theater kids, like, it'll be a thing with. With a popular podcast and a couple other popular podcasts, but not like this kind of what they were going for, which was sort of like a Conservative entertainment giant.
- [25:51]
Tommy Vitor
Yeah, they wanted to replace, like, a major studio in Hollywood with this conservative thing. And I just wondered, like, is that even doable? Like, are there enough audience or advertisers? And it seems like maybe the verdict is not quite yet. Or at least cbd.
- [26:04]
Will Sommer
Yeah, I think that's what they're looking at. I mean, they were, you know, this was the idea. Like, well, I subscribe to Netflix, Disney plus, and, you know, my kids love the Chinchilla show, so I gotta subscribe
- [26:13]
Tommy Vitor
to the Daily Wire, catch every episode of the Pendergrun cycle. Okay, so again, tell me if you disagree, but I kind of mentally slot the Free Press into a similar bucket or basket as the Daily Wire. Now it's less ideologically overt. It's a little more like trolley, maybe, but it clearly has, like, an editorial slant and omission. So the Free Press, as folks probably know, was bought by Paramount for $150 million. Must be nice. Barry Weiss, the founder of the Free Press, was named editor in chief of CBS News. That part of the kind of project is not going great. We've all been reading this week. You and I are talking on Wednesday, June 3, about a horrible meeting with the new 60 Minutes executive producer where the kind of 60 Minutes Uber anchor Scott Pelley dressed him down and was later fired. Which makes me wonder how that show is going to even keep going. But that's neither here nor there. But, you know, we're reading a lot about CBS and not a lot about the Free Press. Like, what is happening over there? I feel like they've kind of disappeared. Like, I just don't see their stuff anymore more.
- [27:18]
Will Sommer
Yeah, I mean, I think the Free Press is trying to, similar to the Daily Wire, in some ways become kind of like a lifestyle thing. They're launching these events. You could. They're going to have Free Press meetups in their town so you can meet fellow heterodox thinkers, maybe date them, whatever. You know, they're trying to branch out in these various ways. But I agree with you. I think the Free Press is kind of facing this drift as Bari Weiss focuses on who she's going to fire at 60 minutes or what have you. I think also, I mean, you know, it's also worth noting, I mean, like, they had a crazy high turnover of people. I mean, they brought in kind of other prominent people like Chuck Lane from the Washington Post, people may remember from the movie Shattered Glass, Michael Moynihan, who's kind of like a podcast personality, Andy Mills, who founded the Daily at the New York Times. And they just, these people just quit like really quickly suggesting, by the way, sort of a foreshadowing of what, 60 Minutes in CBS News, how they're run now. So I think there is some amount of trouble there. They're down to like Olivia Ryan Gold, who's kind of like a wannabe Daily Barry Weiss figure who's like a bit alarming, you know, in her demeanor. I just don't find her like. I don't know if people have like a huge.
- [28:24]
Tommy Vitor
No, no. There was a journalist who was, you know, fairly or unfairly, you decide, mocked for taking video during the shooting attempt at the White House Correspondents Dinner when the. There was assassin. Everyone calls it an assassination attempt. The individual got nowhere near Donald Trump. But there was a reporter who videoed sort of like the aftermath of it, but had the camera turned into on herself the entire time and got a lot of grief for it in the media. That's Olivia Reingold.
- [28:50]
Will Sommer
Yeah. And you know, I mean to get into like a larger structural issue I think they're facing and sort of these other figures, you know, I think there's been a lot a decline in interest in like anti woke content. Yeah. As obviously Donald Trump is in charge. I think a lot of these companies have sort of retreated from things like, you know, from like woke entertainment, such as it is. So you on the upscale end, you have something like the Free Press, which is going to have all these kind of canceled professors. On the lower end, you have people like Tim Pool or the quartering on YouTube who are going to say, I can't believe they have a black Disney princess or what have you. But all of those guys have said, you know, my traffic's going down, my views are down. Because when Democrats are out of power, there's just less wokeness to get outraged about.
- [29:32]
Tommy Vitor
Yeah, there's less things, less to be outraged about. It always struck me though that the Free Press had an impressive elite audience. You know, like there's like smart, professional, thoughtful people I know here in LA who consume a lot of Free Press content that she clearly had. Barry Bari. Weiss said. Is it Barry or Bari? I don't know if I'm saying it right.
- [29:50]
Will Sommer
I kind of think. I don't know.
- [29:52]
Tommy Vitor
Okay.
- [29:52]
Will Sommer
To be honest with you, either way,
- [29:53]
Tommy Vitor
Ms. Weiss, Ms. Weiss clearly was able to build relationships with charm. Otherwise, you know, get investment from billionaires or, you know, elites like the Ellison family. But was that the secret sauce of the Free Press? Only just like that kind of elite audience and maybe not the mass market appeal that they need.
- [30:14]
Will Sommer
I think Barry Wise has had a lot of success kind of having these, what appears to be like a relatively like straightforward, often admirable ideology of like free speech and, you know, all this stuff, intellectual pursuits. But often that boils down to, and I think we can see this elsewhere in right wing media is sort of like respect rich people ideology or like, like rich people should get to do whatever they want. And obviously that's very flattering to the tech oligarchs, to people like the, you know, all of these kind of certainly Elon Musk people like that. And so I, I think that's why she was so successful on the LA cocktail party circuit. And, you know, it's sort of similar to, to the Spencer Pratt thing, you know, I mean, different flavors of it, but this idea of like, you know, we gotta clean up the streets, you know, so the. I think that has obviously served her very well and I think got her that $150 million purchase.
- [31:02]
Tommy Vitor
Yeah, a lot of it is just like I find the people you find annoying. Annoying too. And I'm gonna make fun of them on my website, so subscribe to me.
- [31:10]
Will Sommer
Yeah, I'm going to validate you for these opinions you might otherwise be uncomfortable having.
- [31:13]
Tommy Vitor
Yeah, exactly. All right, now I'm going to ask you about the kind of darker, more extreme fringe, the people I worry about you listening to as you're making your kids Mac and cheese. You've probably, folks have probably heard of Nick Fuentes, who is an openly racist, misogynistic, holocaust denying, streamer, podcast host, whatever you want to call him. His content really exploded, at least in my feeds, in recent months, especially after his interview with Tucker Carlson. But also his episodes get clipped and shared everywhere. And if you kind of like make the wrong moves on the Twitter algorithm, all of a sudden they're getting force fed down your throat. Then there's figures like Chud the Builder, which I'd love to get into a bit with you, who is just a truly awful new Internet figure who would literally run around screaming racial slurs in an effort to bait black people into fights. And that story ended exactly how you'd expect it would end, with him getting arrested for shooting someone in one of those fights. So can you tell us about those two individuals and any other big voices in this extremist fringe that you keep an eye on?
- [32:17]
Will Sommer
Yeah, so this kind of fits into sort of the Gen Z streamer community. You know, Nick Fuentes being the most prominent one, this white nationalist. He has a sort of Unique demeanor among racists, which is like, he's a little Fae. He's like a kind of a little guy. And so he appeals in sort of a strange way, you know, to the extent that I think he has had sort of a Candace Owens, like, breakout into the broader Internet where people will, you know, play his audios and, you know, over their TikToks or what have you. I think Chud the builder, as you said. I think one of the most reprehensible people I've ever written about someone who goes around, says the N word. And then when, you know, black person says, hey, what are you doing? He says, you know, step to me and I'll shoot you. And ultimately, not only did he shoot someone, but he also doofus ended up shooting himself.
- [33:08]
Tommy Vitor
Did shoot himself.
- [33:09]
Will Sommer
So, yeah, so now he's on trial for attempted murder. And so even more broadly, we can look around to people like whether it's clavicular, the guy who's trying to look so handsome, or these like, dating podcasts where they bring in a bunch of women from only fans and they say, what's your body count? And then, you know, they go, oh my God, that's not trad. And these things just kind of like whipping up hate against women or, or minorities. And it's all kind of united around a lot of it gets clipped as you into these, like, these 12 minute segments that get a lot of social media traction.
- [33:43]
Tommy Vitor
And to your point about the clipping, I mean, it can feel really hard to understand if these shows are actually big and influential or if I just see them because Twitter knows that I clicked on a bunch of Fuentes clips at one point and now it's just constantly serving me more of them. Do you, do you have any sense of like, kind of the aggregate influence of this world?
- [34:03]
Will Sommer
You know, it's. It's interesting. I think, you know, we can have. There are a couple metrics, and as you said, it can be challenging, right? Because on one hand we've seen these articles that say, you know, clipping, it's making it all fake. You know, there, there's. None of this is real. None of these people are popular. But, you know, as Taylor Lorenz has pointed out, I mean, someone like Clavicular was popular before he came to the attention of people like you and me. He's popular at kind of like a Gen Z. Here's this handsome oddball level. And also, you know, if clipping, if this was all this fake thing, then, you know, everyone would do it. We would have a Hundred thousand killers, right. Heaven, heaven forbid. But like, you know, it is a challenging world and for me it's often when it kind of spills over into the real world. So when Clavicular is out walking around and all these people are going, oh my God, it's Clavicular. Well, clearly there's some amount of fan base there. Or when Chud the builder unfortunately raises 300 grand after shooting a guy, I mean, clearly there's some amount of genuine support another side.
- [35:00]
Tommy Vitor
So for us at Crooked, I mean when I think about the technology and the platforms we focus on, it's like the standard podcast app from Apple. It's YouTube is huge for us, especially in terms of growth. And then obviously we try to clip and share our stuff too on Twitter, Instagram, TikTok. Obviously the conservatives use a lot of these same sites as well. But they're also, they use platforms that I feel like Democrats just don't really live on, like Rumble, Kik, Twitch is a little more, you know, broadly used. What are the biggest platforms you think for this sort of conservative MAGA media world and how important are they to the growth of these spaces?
- [35:37]
Will Sommer
Yeah, so I mean, you mentioned Kik, which is like basically Twitch, the people who were kicked off of Twitch went to Kik and, and it's sort of a, like it's basically funded all by like gambling ads because they couldn't have those on Twitch. So that's like the very unsavory people on Kik and that's someone like Clavicular for example. And then if you get kicked off a kick, you end up where Chud the Builder ended up, which is like, God, something called like Brain pill dot info or something along those lines.
- [36:02]
Tommy Vitor
I've never even heard of that.
- [36:03]
Will Sommer
I mean, yeah, it's these like, I think I'm mangling the name, but it's these like really like, you know, these kind of backwaters of the Internet now it can all still get clipped and end up on Twitter. And especially as we've seen the mainstream social media platforms sort of pull back from moderating and really go hands off. I mean a lot of it still happens on places like YouTube and X. And you know, as you mentioned, Rumble, which is sort of the, the right wing YouTube alternative, which just hosted, you know, was the main sponsor for the steroid games that were held recently. I mean, so that's kind of the world. The world they're operating.
- [36:34]
Tommy Vitor
Yeah. The. Was the Enhanced games. Were they in games?
- [36:37]
Will Sommer
Yes.
- [36:38]
Tommy Vitor
I, you know, I feel like everyone was sharing the Picture of that one swimmer who looked like he had been inflated, you know, with a. With a hose. But then I don't think they broke any records. Right. I mean, you had some sort of natural athletes just smoking the steroid guys.
- [36:51]
Will Sommer
Yeah, I watched it. You know, in a way, it wasn't as like, as sinister as I hoped. I mean, they tried to make it just look like the Olympics. But yeah, ultimately, really, the guys, you know, and I think especially with things like weightlifting, these guys are on so many drugs anyway, that it's kind of same same.
- [37:08]
Tommy Vitor
And also, I think, wasn't it hosted by the guy, Brian Johnson, who's trying to maximize his longevity, but in practice, that means, I guess, tweeting out things, observations about his girlfriend's vaginal biome was one of them.
- [37:21]
Will Sommer
Yeah, he's a disturbing fellow. And he appeared with an umbrella so that he wouldn't get any natural sunlight.
- [37:29]
Tommy Vitor
How does that space overlap, overlap with conservative media? Or does it. Am I wrong?
- [37:34]
Will Sommer
I mean, I. I think there is some overlap. I mean, certainly someone like Brian Johnson is trying to live forever. I mean, he's like a tech guy, kind of tech adjacent guy. You have these guys who are like, trying to, you know, it's someone like clavicular. Similarly, as Brian Johnson's trying to live forever, clavicular is like trying to, you know, be as handsome as he can be. And so I think this idea, particularly among young people, of like, you know, optimizing and having this kind of very clavicular represents kind of like a very nihilistic view of the world where it's like, if weren't in the, like, 0.1%, you know, women are. They call it hypergamy. So, you know, the most handsome men will have 10 lovers, you know, at the same time, and everyone else will be. Will be an incel. And so, you know, then your life is over, essentially. And so you have to compete in these really intense ways. I think we. We see that reflected a lot in this kind of really intense, like, Silicon Valley culture as well?
- [38:24]
Tommy Vitor
Yeah, it's a very weird culture. I mean, it's always interesting to me to kind of identify points where the Venn diagrams overlap. Right. Because I think Maha the Make America Healthy Again agenda really did bring in a big community of people to the Trump orbit that might not otherwise have ever voted for a Republican. Right. I mean, a lot of it was like, you know, out here in la, it's like west side moms who were, you know, sort of like anti vax in some way kind of Got drawn into the Maha movement during COVID and ended up voting Trump. And it's interesting, like the sort of of like the longevity, lifestyle, health space can get, you know, coded conservative if Democrats are not talking to those people or communicating an alternative message.
- [39:06]
Will Sommer
I mean, there's a huge overlap between all these different groups. So, you know, for example, let's take a look at Candace Owens who got really into Blake Lively, Justin Baldoni stuff. And so she drew in a lot of people who didn't care about conservative politics. But it was kind of these like conservative coded, like blame the woman kind of anti me too type stuff. And they start, you know, combing through the court documents and then, oh, you want to comb through some something else. Let's go through Brigitte Macron's high school yearbooks or what have you, or you know, like the world of like meme stocks where people, oh, I lost all my money on Bed, Bath and Beyond. Then they're championed by people like Bill Pulte, now our deputy, you know, intelligence chief, or our director of National Intelligence. And then, you know, then they get into QAnon or they get into other conspiracy theories because they feel that they've been wronged.
- [39:48]
Tommy Vitor
Extraordinary video going around the Internet this week of Bill Pulte at a conference where he is trying to promote the Bed, Bath and Beyond stock and the speaker before him slaps another man in the face with a dildo and then
- [40:00]
Will Sommer
Pulte himself gets presented with a dildo. So, I mean, this is the
- [40:06]
Tommy Vitor
trophy, I think when it said Bill Pulte fucks only the Young was the joke, I guess.
- [40:11]
Will Sommer
Yeah, he loves the Taylor Swift song Only the Young. I've unfortunately. But it's certainly regrettable phrasing.
- [40:18]
Tommy Vitor
It is. Oh yeah, very regrettable phrasing. This week alone you got Bill Pulte talking about only the young and then Ivanka talking about buying an island. It was not a good week for moving on from the Jeffrey Epstein dialogue for the Trump administration.
- [40:37]
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- [42:00]
Tommy Vitor
Okay, let's talk about the kind of manosphere world such as it is. You've mentioned Clavicular a few times. You're right, he's been around for a while. But I think he exploded onto the national scene a few months back and taught us all about looks, maxing and this weird lingo he has and hitting his face with hammer. And he also infamously went to a club in Miami with Nick Fuentes we talked about earlier, the kind of neo Nazi content creator. And then a truly awful guy named Andrew Tate who was charged with, what is it?
- [42:32]
Will Sommer
Human trafficking, rape, human trafficking, all kinds of stuff.
- [42:35]
Tommy Vitor
Yeah, just like genuinely awful human being who, by the way, was just in Russia with Candace Owens for some reason. We can talk about that if you want. And a streamer named Sneako. They all sang along to Kanye West's song Heil Hitler, filmed it, chucked it on the Internet. Are those folks Clavicular? Andrew Tate, Sneako? Are they talking about politics these days? How do you think about them and their influence in this kind of media world?
- [43:02]
Will Sommer
You know, it's interesting. I feel like each of them has sort of a bespoke ideology all their own. You know, someone like Clavicular famously said that, you know, J.D. vance is too fat and he's gonna vote for Gavin Newsom as a result because Gavin Newsom's just more handsome. You know, know, you, you have these figures that almost exist in sort of a right wing realm beyond any even like Trumpian politics, where, you know, for example, you know, clinicular's representatives will always say, oh, he's not right wing. You know, he likes Gavin Newsom. But then when you actually watch him interact with women, he's like, it's like a caveman view. Like a girl will say, like, I'm going to college. And he's like, what? Why? You know, so it's ultimately this very reactionary, ultimately, like really like nihilistic view of the world. You know, someone like, like, you know, whether it's Andrew Tate, who obviously has all these sort of criminal allegations. You know, also in the club was this guy named Myron Gaines.
- [43:55]
Tommy Vitor
Yes.
- [43:55]
Will Sommer
Who's, you know, sort of pseudonym, because they're admiring his gains in the gym. You know, he's. These are guys who are really like, just pumping out this, like, hate content. And, and so it is interesting, I feel like when there's kind of a big political moment, they might discuss it, but they certainly aren't like orthodox conservative figures as we might think of them.
- [44:16]
Tommy Vitor
Yeah, no, it's interesting. Hearing you talk about it made me think that, you know, I guess if Candace Owens beat is conspiracy, their beat is misogyny. And hate for women. I mean, frankly.
- [44:28]
Will Sommer
Yeah, hate for women, sometimes hate for Indian people. That's kind of a rising one. You know, they're kind of just. They're these guys who sort of like, look, I mean, they just want more attention, essentially, is what they're after. And, and they do, you know, they can get, you know, someone like Chud the Builder, who's sort of an extreme example of this, they get sort of trapped in these, like, escalatory attention cycles. And so Sneako converts to Islam and then, you know, is caught drinking and all this stuff. And so they live some pretty twisted lives.
- [44:59]
Tommy Vitor
Just weird drama all the time. I used to listen to Steve Bannon's podcast all the time because I felt like it would tell me where Maga was going. least a couple weeks earlier, you hear like some crazy idea and then all of a sudden to be on Trump's true social feed a few weeks later, I've fallen off on that listing habit in part because the guy just cranks out like, what, three, four hours of stuff a day and I couldn't keep up for it. But also I felt like in the beginning of Trump 2.0, the Bannon wing of the party Seemed to be losing.
- [45:30]
Will Sommer
Right.
- [45:30]
Tommy Vitor
Like his enemy was Elon Musk. Elon Musk was sitting in the White House. He was like co president for a while. I don't know, maybe that's not the case anymore. Like where do you think Bannon and that media empire sit in the kind of MAGA media hierarchy in space these days?
- [45:45]
Will Sommer
You know, it's interesting. People are. People asked me this before and I'm kind of trying to figure it out myself exactly what influence Steve Bannon has. I mean, I think it's often sort of overstated because I think he's a pretty easy source for journalists and so they're happy. He's often in articles or kind of cited as this his wisdom. He is, as you said, I mean he still has these figures who are kind of like these like B tier operatives who will sort of reveal that something's gonna happen. Like he'll have like John Solomon who's kind of this like conservative investigative reporter and is now joining the government as. And he'll say, you know, Tulsi Gabbard's, you know, basically digging up stuff to interfere with elections, things like that, which is very. Or Tina Peters lawyer was on and he said, Tina Peters are going to get pardoned soon. And that happened. And so I think think. But as for his like actual influence, I mean, as you said, he was kind of this like anti tech oligarch guy. I think we're seeing more of that coalition kind of congeal on the right. But at the moment I think he's kind of just humming along, but not with any sort of particular amount of sweat.
- [46:49]
Tommy Vitor
Yeah, I think he was last seen pushing the anti Sharia law ballot initiative in Texas, for example, as a way to maybe turn out voters for pax. And he clearly it's his hobby horses and his candidates. But yeah, I'm sort of not exactly clear where he's at in this space. So look, the whole point of this conversation was to talk about this MAGA media ecosystem and figure out what it tells us about where the party is going. Because they're all kind of clamoring to figure out what a post Donald Trump political reality will be, even if it's, you know, later than we all want it to be. We talked about Tucker, in the policy fights around Iran and US support towards Israel. Are there other ideological or policy splits that you're observing kind of bubble up in this space?
- [47:33]
Will Sommer
I do think, you know, things like certainly AI, I think is emerging as a real issue, whether it's data centers or like Government oversight of AI. People like Steve Bannon have really been whipping up the idea of like, you know, we need more government oversight or I think there's also, you know, on sort of a more smaller scale, there's this growing sense on like places like TikTok where you'll have a video of a farmer being like, people keep asking to buy my land for a data center. Now, you know, admittedly I don't think that's much of like a sob story. You know, he can sell it or not, but it's giving people this sense of like there's like sinister forces at play. And I think that always like really hits with the right. On the other hand you have these people like David Sacks, these, these tech people who are clearly very associated with the administration who basically, you know, want to run amok. And so I think things like AI and tech in general, you know, Matt Walsh at the Daily Wire on the other hand is like a very anti AI guy. So you can see these splits. I mean certainly as you mentioned, the, the Iran and sort of intervention, Israel in general is, is like a huge fault line. So I think we're as Trump kind of recedes and influence. I think this fight is going to break out more in the open.
- [48:38]
Tommy Vitor
Yeah. The other thing I want to ask you is, you know, there's been some suggestion that a lot of the, the heat you see in the MAGA media world is just financially driven. Like there is a, a woman named Ashley St. Claire who is a former MAGA media influencer who is probably best known to this audience is for having a child with Elon Musk and then kind of like talking about it afterwards. She recently said that the whole right wing influencer world is just getting paid and that most of the posts you see or that causes that kind of these MAGA folks take up happen because someone is cutting them a check. And I think a lot of people appointed the fact that like all of a sudden Katie Miller, Stephen Miller, White House advisor Stephen Miller's wife is talking about like, like what solar farms I think. And people are like interesting that happened. Is that true? Do you think is Ashley St. Clair right that there's a lot of folks on the takeout there.
- [49:29]
Will Sommer
I, I think she is right. I think there's like a huge amount of pay to play or payola washing around. I mean whether it's people who are kind of like named figures like the talk radio has like Chad Prather or what have you or just these like meme accounts that are like end wokeness and have a million followers.
- [49:44]
Ad Read Host
Right.
- [49:45]
Will Sommer
I'll give you an example. I just wrote this week about how suddenly, suddenly a bunch of these people were saying, Harley Davidson is so woke and gay. We gotta get. Ditch your Harley whatever and buy a Indian motorcycle, which is, there's another motorcycle company called Indian. And it was so strange that there wasn't at the mo at that time, like a real, like, wokeness, like a genuine wokeness controversy. And all of a sudden they all just start attacking it. And I think, look, I haven't proven it, but I think it's clear that this is a paid campaign, whether by this rival motorcycle company or some other third force to, to, to just pump out these, these articles and these posts. You know, similarly, someone like Laura Loomer will suddenly be like, we got to straighten out these Venezuelan oil export licenses. I mean, these, these things. Oil is a big one, though. The Gateway pundit had this thing that was like, we got it. We can't stop keep sanctioning this Indian oil refinery. I mean, these things, like, these guys, these people who normally just like base level culture war stuff are just like, I. I just am really passionate about the Indian and hydrocarbon industry. It's so funny to all of a
- [50:44]
Tommy Vitor
sudden have like dozens of influencers be like, harley Davidson is gay. Like, I'm sorry, what, what is that? What are you talking about?
- [50:50]
Will Sommer
Where is that coming from?
- [50:51]
Tommy Vitor
The other one that was very obvious to a lot of people, I think Ashley St. Clair called out was after the White House correspondent's dinner shooting. All these influencers were posting essentially verbatim messages saying Trump needs a ballroom. And she suggested that that was clear evidence that there was a coordination of this message in like, I don't know, maybe a discourse chat room or something.
- [51:09]
Will Sommer
Yeah, I mean, I think clearly there's like group chats of some kind that, you know, whether, I don't think necessarily those people are being paid.
- [51:15]
Ad Read Host
Right.
- [51:15]
Will Sommer
But I think there is also this kind of like, there's like an access I think you probably want to preserve with the Republican Party, with the White House. So you get invited to the events or to Mar a Lago. And so they, they'll say, you know, the line is, you know, within like 20, 30 minutes of the shooting, suddenly, like, it is unbelievable. The Democrats won't let Trump have his giant ball ballroom.
- [51:35]
Tommy Vitor
Yeah, the White House is not directly paying these folks, but if you do their bidding, then people like Stephen Miller will reply to you, share your content, help algorithmically boost you so you have more followers and more engagement. And can make more money off future posts, so there is a whole smart grift to it. This episode is sponsored by Better Help. Not everyone experiences summer as an endless parade of hot dogs, vacations and pool parks parties. For some people, life's woes don't abate when the temperature climbs and the days get longer. If you've got the summertime blues or Simply feeling overwhelmed, BetterHelp is there when you need it. With over 30,000 therapists, BetterHelp is the world's largest online therapy platform, having served over 6 million people globally. And it works with an average rating of 4.9 out of 5 for a live session based on over 1.7 million client reviews. BetterHelp therapists work according to a strict code of conduct and it's fully licensed in the U.S. u.S. Better Help does the initial matching work for you so you can focus on your therapy goals. A short questionnaire helps you identify your needs and your preferences and their 12 or more years of experience and industry leading match fulfillment rate means they typically get it right the first time. If you aren't happy with your match, switch to a different therapist at any time from their tailored Rex I actually took their quiz. Love it. And I just said I want Harrison Ford.
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Tommy Vitor
He was in OH where he played a therapist.
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Tommy Vitor
I wanted Harrison Ford. I to wanted a handsome senior who survived lots of plane crashes. It's a very specific quiz. Everyone needs therapy. It's incredibly important this day and age. Every day and age really. Probably could have used it in the 12th century as well. For sure.
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Tommy Vitor
But also, the world sucks. There's a lot going on. If you're listening to this show, you're probably a little bit anxious about what happens next. And so it's good to talk to someone. It's good to talk to someone about your life, whatever's going on with family, friends, work, work. You don't have to say yes to everything. This summer, find support and therapy. Sign up and get 10% off@betterhelp.com PSA that's betterhelp.com PSA. One other thing I want to ask you about. There's sort of like there's this conservative gonzo media world out there. There's James o' Keefe was it. Project Veritas was his old thing. He's sort of still doing that kind of thing, like these sting operation type reporting gigs. There's a story in Politico this week about a Florida woman who is a former QAnon organizer who went undercover to seduce several liberal men who worked in politics, record them and then release these embarrassing clips to right wing figures like Steven Crowder or James o'. Keefe. Is this a boom in business? Is this something that like anyone in Washington needs to worry about about?
- [54:20]
Will Sommer
Yeah, I mean I, I, I would say it is. It's so o' Keefe clearly is just so as you said, Project Veritas kind of imploded. O' Keefe got pushed out. He was spending all this money on like, like putting on musicals that he was in. I mean it was truly like crazy stuff. And so that collapsed and now he's basically posted up in D.C. and he's doing much cheaper things. Like we might remember he used to like plant people in Democratic campaigns for a long time and now he just has, you know, beautiful women scrolling on Tinder and they'll get a hit. And if it's anyone who seems at or media, he recently got a guy who like worked at the Washington Nationals baseball team like as a community relations guy. And they're like this guy is woke. I mean so it often it's kind of a scattershot approach. It doesn't really, you know, always bring in the big targets but at the same time they have, they've gotten people at the Department of Justice, all this stuff. And so, you know, look, I would say if you're like a middle aged bald DC bureaucrat and like, and this is a real one, like a 20 year old AU pair in Georgetown just finds you so fascinating and wants to hear about your joke job, you know, you got to be on the lookout.
- [55:22]
Tommy Vitor
Yeah, right. If someone is really, really interested in all the work you do at GSA and then wants you to talk shit about Donald Trump. Yeah. Be on the lookout for that. It's interesting the way some candidates have or staffers have kind of dove into this super right wing, the most extreme media world and parlayed it to some success. Like you have written about this right wing nut in Florida named James Fishback who's running an insurgent campaign for governor. Governor, can you just tell us about Fishback, what he believes and like the degree to which the kind of neo Nazi adjacent kind of Nick Fuentes fringe content creation world has helped him rise.
- [56:01]
Ad Read Host
Yeah.
- [56:01]
Will Sommer
So James Fishback is a guy who's running for governor in the Republican primary in Florida. He's challenging Byron Donalds who's the sort of Trump endorsed congressman. And James Fishback is a guy with a resume that is like he Makes someone like Bill Pulte look like extremely qualified. I mean this guy really should not be anywhere near elected office. He had this whole thing with, he got fired from a hedge fund. He had all these kind of sleazy machinations that were exposed in court records where he would like he had an intern who he was, he wrote for the Free Press. Speaking of. And he was like, send them an email under a fake name and say you want more Jane's fish back. And so as a result of these machinations, he's now like $2 million in debt. So he's basically running from his creditors. His campaign staff was saying his couch might get repossessed. So at the same time though, he has endorsed basically Nick Fuente's politics. He's sort of the first test of this, like angry, like super racist. Byron Donalds is black and James Fishback will call him a slave. I mean he'll, he all this racist will send him back to the ghetto, all this sort of stuff. And yet he's rising in the polls. I don't think he's gonna win. But if you look at, you know, Byron Donald's events, kind of lackluster, not that many people he's host. Fishback meanwhile, is hosting these events standing room only, huge overflow crowd.
- [57:17]
Tommy Vitor
Yeah, I'm like really worried about the seeming lack of cop cost for this right wing extremism. Like one other individual that has made a splash this week is Greg Bevino. Folks probably remember him. He was the kind of like fascist munchkin who was running customs and border patrol who used to wear that long Nazi coat. And he ran the occupations of Minneapolis before Donald Trump finally decided like, okay, this guy's too extreme even for me. He popped up at a re migration conference in Portugal recently with a bunch of totally extremist, far right kind of neo Nazi types. Remigration, for those who don't know the term. It's ethnic cleansing. It's the idea of pushing out migrants from whatever European country. And Pavino did an interview in advance of this conference with some far right outlet out of nowhere. He brought up Erwin Rommel, the Nazi general, also known as the Desert Fox, as sort of an example of how their career tracks were similar. Like it was bizarre fucking shit. But like, I don't know, is Bovino going to parlay, you know, his work at CBP into these like alt right spaces into something else? Like it's very worrisome stuff.
- [58:32]
Will Sommer
Yeah, you know, I think he's certainly going to try to. I was just talking to someone who's trying to run a sort of draft Bovino for 2028 campaign. But as you said, I mean, you know, it's an interesting kind of character because he's wearing the Gestapo coat, he's doing all this, this border patrol stuff. You know, you don't want to jump to conclusions, but it turns out, yes, he is a, you know, essentially he an admirer of Nazis and this kind of hanging out with these fascists. As you said, re migration is a term I think unfortunately we're going to hear more and more about. This isn't just deporting people who are here illegally. This is saying, you know, well, you're brown even if you're a citizen. Even if you're a citizen, you gotta go back to your parents or grandparents, country of origin. And so he's hanging out with people like Austrian far right figures. This guy it organized by a guy who has an organization called Reconquista, which obviously was kicking the Jews and Muslims out of Spain and has said, you know, Weimar problems call for Weimar solutions. So like some kind of Nazi like movement. And now this is, you know, who Greg Bovino's hanging out with and really kind of being embraced by these Gen Z Republicans and sort of tying that back in with James Fishback. You know, Fishback has also faced these, these allegations of like having a sexual relationship with a high school student. You know, he hasn't been charged with anything, but if you imagine a candidate that damaged and how much success he's having, how successful could someone who doesn't have all that baggage do?
- [59:47]
Tommy Vitor
Yeah, I mean, look, this remigration concept, I mean, it's too extreme even for like Marine Le Pen and the National Rally Party in France. I mean, this is really dark stuff. This is like the AfD, the kind of neo Nazis from Germany were at this conference and Greg Bevino was there. And I think this the day of, he tweeted himself like very much doing, I'm not going to do it, Hitler's salute. So yeah, your point, like the mask is off with this guy and he certainly doesn't seem to see a political cost in any way.
- [60:12]
Will Sommer
Yeah. And it's not like the Trump administration is, you know, grappling with the fact that this guy has a big role in the border patrol.
- [60:17]
Tommy Vitor
Yeah, they could care less. Finally. So look, of all the people we've discussed, is there one that, I don't know, worries you most? Maybe worries the wrong word, but that has the most crossover appeal to Democrats and independents and the most influence to sort of drag people into this conservative space or the MAGA space.
- [60:33]
Will Sommer
Yeah, I mean, I think there are a lot that are concerning. I mean, my mind just instantly jumps to Candace Owens, who I think has done a lot too, you know, mainstream anti Semitism to, you know, I was getting my hair cut and the, the woman cutting my hair was otherwise very liberal and said, but, you know, but I think Candace Owens is on to a lot. You know, she's, she's just doing investigations. I mean, we saw Hunter Biden when he was on her show. He said, you know, I love the questions you're asking about kissing her ass. Murder.
- [60:58]
Tommy Vitor
It was gross.
- [60:59]
Will Sommer
Crazy.
- [60:59]
Tommy Vitor
Yeah.
- [61:00]
Will Sommer
And, and so I think someone like that and she's, you know, frankly, she's very compelling broadcaster. And so I think that kind of combination I think is pretty concerning.
- [61:08]
Tommy Vitor
I put Fuentes up there too. I mean, like, I think that there a lot of young kids in like fraternities at SEC schools who are listening to Nick Fuentes and like, to his credit, he's a compelling broadcaster. Like, he sits in front of a microphone for an hour, several hours a night and just speaks into the ether. And that is an incredibly hard thing to do. And he is skilled at it. And he also can be very, very funny. I mean, like, you see, I'll see clips of like Joe Rogan and other very famous comedians talking about how funny Nick Fuentes is. And I worry that that like, that really can help, you know, obscure some genuinely like neo Nazi, scary, misogynistic racist views.
- [61:47]
Will Sommer
Yeah, absolutely. I mean, I, I think, you know, and we can see not just with things like the way Fuentes has promoted Fishback, but also the, these sort of recurring Republican, Young Republican, racist text message leaks and things like this. I mean, those views, this is not just one guy who has a sizable social media following. I think those views are really sinking in with young, young Republicans. And those people are unfortunately the future of the party.
- [62:10]
Tommy Vitor
Yep, they're future of the party. And this kind of MAGA media world I think will determine the course that party takes. And so will. I'm so grateful to you for talking me through all of this. I find this endlessly fascinating. I could literally go on all day. But I'm grateful. You and everyone again should subscribe to False Flag, your incredible newsletter, which, by the way, we promoted the top two.
- [62:29]
Will Sommer
Yeah, well, thanks for having me on.
- [62:30]
Tommy Vitor
Thanks, buddy. Thanks again to Will Sommer for joining the show and Jon Favreau, Jon Levitt and I will be, be back next week on the regular Tuesday episode Pods
- [62:38]
Will Sommer
of America is a crooked media production. Our show is produced by Austin Fisher,
- [62:41]
Tommy Vitor
Saul Rubin, McKenna Roberts and Farrah Safari, with Ree Churlin, Elijah Cohn and Adrian Hill.
- [62:45]
Will Sommer
Our team includes Matt de Groat, Ben
- [62:47]
Tommy Vitor
Hethcote, Jordan Kantor, Charlotte Landis, Kirill Pel Aviv, David Toles, Mia Kelman, Ryan Young and Naomi Singel. Our staff is proudly unionized with the Writers Guild of America East.
- [62:58]
Candace Owens (clip)
In moments like these, it's easy to feel overwhelmed and even easier to feel powerless.
- [63:03]
Tommy Vitor
Powerless.
- [63:04]
Candace Owens (clip)
But we are neither. I'm Stacey Abrams and on my podcast Assembly Required, I take on each executive action, legislative battle and breaking news moment by asking three questions. What's really happening? What can we do about it? And how do we keep going together? This is a space for clarity, strategy and hope rooted in action, not the denial. New episodes of Assembly Required Drop Tuesdays. Tune in wherever you get your podcast and on YouTube.