Bernie vs. the Robots

Summary

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Pod Save America — “Bernie vs. the Robots” (May 3, 2026)

Overview of the Episode This episode, hosted by Jon Lovett, delivers a no-nonsense, deeply political double feature: a candid, wide-ranging interview with Senator Bernie Sanders on the existential risks and vast societal effects of AI, Big Tech’s political influence, and shifting Democratic attitudes, especially on Israel; and a thoughtful conversation with journalist Peter Hamby on political violence and the information ecosystem shaping today’s left. Both segments interrogate urgent questions about technology, governance, and the Democratic Party’s path forward—with Lovett’s sharp asides and humor grounding the tone.

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Section 1: Interview with Senator Bernie Sanders

Main Themes & Purpose

• How AI presents unprecedented risks and requires urgent regulation.
• The concentration of tech power and its political consequences.
• Democratic Party campaign finance reform (especially super PACs).
• The dramatic shift in Democratic attitudes towards Israel.
• Economic and social shocks from automation.
• Sanders’s roots, generational change, and vision for a social contract.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Existential Risk from AI (01:00–11:21)

• Massive Social Impact

  • “AI and robotics are the most revolutionary technologies in the history of humanity. They’re going to transform life for every man, woman and child.” (Sen. Sanders, 01:27)
  • Sanders warns of AI’s reach: job loss, mental health (children isolated on AI bots), democratic vulnerability, and even existential threats from runaway AI.

• Regulatory Failure

  • “You go to a sandwich shop, it is regulated … Yet the AI guys want to go forward with this revolutionary technology with no regulation.” (Sen. Sanders quoting Max Tegmark, 04:24)
  • Calls for slowing down AI development (“moratorium on new data centers”) and a global approach (bringing in Chinese scientists, international protocols).

• On Fatalism and Odds

  • “The point is that either I’m nuts or a 10% chance that the whole world might be destroyed. Yeah, I think we might want to get to work to prevent that.” (Sen. Sanders, 09:21)
  • Stresses Nobel and Turing Award winners’ warnings should be heeded, not dismissed.

• US-China Cooperation

  • Argues this isn’t a zero-sum race: “The human race losing control over AI ain’t good for China, ain’t good for America, ain’t good for the world. Of course we’ve got to work together.” (Sen. Sanders, 06:05)
  • Sees the AI challenge as akin to the nuclear arms race—a moment for adversaries to collaborate on restraint.

2. AI Industry Money, Super PACs, and Democratic Corruption (11:21–15:06)

• Super PAC Power

  • “We’re talking about many, many hundreds of millions of dollars coming into the midterm elections right now … That takes us from the dangers of AI to a corrupt campaign finance system, which is undermining American democracy.” (Sen. Sanders, 11:21)
  • Expresses deep worry about tech industry money preventing meaningful regulation by intimidating politicians.

• Calls for Campaign Finance Reform

  • Sanders urges Democrats to ban super PAC money from their primaries and highlights the hypocrisy of establishment voices hustling money from tech, crypto, and other industries.
  • “This is really insidious and I think progressives increasingly understand that that money … is going to be used against progressives and decent people who are running in primaries.” (Sen. Sanders, 14:26)

3. Economic Shocks from Automation & the Need for a New Social Contract (16:22–21:27)

• On Job Loss

  • Lovett and Sanders explore the scope: “If really 100 million jobs could potentially be at risk … we'd have to think about a much different social compact right now.” (Lovett, 18:39)
  • “This in my view goes beyond saying we got to extend unemployment benefits … this technological revolution is so sweeping that we need to be talking about a new social contract.” (Sen. Sanders, 18:39)

• On the Tax Code

  • Companies are rewarded for buying robots, not hiring people—a policy inversion Sanders wants to address.
  • “We need to go a lot deeper … because you may never get another job. You’re a 50-year-old truck driver today and you’re replaced by a driverless vehicle. Where are you going to go out and get a job?” (Sen. Sanders, 19:26)

• Sustainability of Social Programs

  • Raises alarm that mass job loss means fewer tax contributors, endangering Social Security, Medicare, etc.

4. Shift in Democratic Politics on Israel (21:27–26:34)

• Rapid Change in Caucus Attitudes

  • “In April of last year, only 15 Democrats voted with your resolution to block weapons sales to Israel. Now, two weeks ago, 40 Democrats joined you. There’s a profound shift happening.” (Lovett, 21:27)
  • Sanders: “It is not just Democrats, it’s Republicans as well. … I think what people, including myself, I think, have concluded: this is a genocidal attack.” (Sen. Sanders, 22:09)
  • Points to polls and grassroots anger as drivers of the shift.

• On Activism and Elections

  • Praises primary successes of candidates with populist, anti-big-money, and anti-Netanyahu stances, e.g., Graham Platner in Maine, “not dissimilar” to Mamdani in NYC.

5. Sanders on Jewish Identity and the Israel Debate (26:34–28:57)

• On Being Critical of Israel
  • "Netanyahu pushes this all the time, that if you are critical of the horrific policies of the Netanyahu government, you are somehow an anti-Semite. And that is totally absurd." (Sen. Sanders, 27:04)
  • Sanders roots his criticism in Jewish values and the history of Zionist progressivism.

6. Sanders' Life Journey, from Kibbutz to Senate (28:57–29:59)

• “These were very progressive entities. … It was an interesting and novel model which I happen to believe in. But obviously that is not what Israel is about today. And going from where I was as a kid to being a United States Senator dealing with these issues, it’s been a long journey to say the least.” (Sen. Sanders, 29:08)

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Notable Quotes

• “Either I’m nuts or a 10% chance … that the whole world might be destroyed. Yeah, I think we might want to get to work to prevent that.” — Bernie Sanders (09:21)
• “This is not a race with China. This is a question of scientists sitting down and figuring out how we can prevent this technology from escaping human control with calamitous impact. I cannot believe that any sane person would be against that.” — Bernie Sanders (07:57)
• “We need to be talking about a new social compact. How do we make sure this revolutionary technology improves human life economically, socially, psychologically, and of course prevents any kind of catastrophe?” — Bernie Sanders (20:32)
• “If you are critical of the horrific policies of the Netanyahu government, you are somehow an anti-Semite. And that is totally absurd.” — Bernie Sanders (27:04)

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Timestamps for Major Segments

• AI Existential Risk: 01:00–11:21
• Super PACs and Campaign Finance: 11:21–15:06
• Automation and New Social Contract: 16:22–21:27
• Dem Shift on Israel: 21:27–26:34
• Sanders on Jewish Values & Personal Journey: 26:34–29:59

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Section 2: Conversation with Peter Hamby

Main Themes & Purpose

• The rise of political violence and the online ecosystem's role.
• Diminished ability of established media and politicians to set boundaries.
• The responsibilities of influencers and the changing landscape of news consumption.
• The challenge of nuance and forbearance in polarized times.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Political Violence & Dangerous Rhetoric (33:23–53:41)

• Online Ecosystem Amplifies Extremes

  • “The random people on the Internet thing matters.” (Hamby, 34:51)
  • After high-profile acts (e.g., assassination attempt at the White House Correspondents Dinner, Charlie Kirk shooting), fringe celebrations or conspiracies spike online, fueled by algorithms.
  • Hamby points to increased left-wing violence and plots, noting, “2025 was the first year ever that left wing violence … surpassed right wing violence and or plots.” (Hamby, 40:44)
  • However, actual violence overwhelmingly remains right-wing, and Democratic politicians aren’t fomenting it.

• Role of Political Leaders vs. Influencers

  • “The comfort that people have, right, whether it’s the shooting of the United Healthcare CEO or the killing of Charlie Kirk, that is morally wrong.” (Lovett, 47:16)
  • Both agree: Democratic politicians mostly behave responsibly, but lack of central leadership on the left means influencers—often less disciplined—set the tone for millions.

• Conspiracy Culture

  • “There aren’t any real epistemological boundaries … it just feels like the fever swamps of the Internet are just grabbing otherwise normal people and yanking them in.” (Hamby, 49:05)
  • The embrace of conspiracy theory is fueled by a culture of instant digital comfort: “You don’t have to feel that [friction] anymore. The algorithm is telling you you don’t have to feel that anymore.” (Lovett, 49:17)

2. Media Environment and Responsibility (53:41–57:29)

• Shift from Legacy Media

  • “Influencers and creators are now on the par, on par with, according to this poll, local TV news, radio … and that’s a huge shift in just a few years.” (Hamby, 55:21)
  • Calls for influencers to embrace more responsibility as their power grows.

• The Value of Nuance

  • Hamby praises PSA: “You don’t just tell people what they want to hear. You tell people sometimes … what they need to hear. … Wrestling with ideas is like really good. It’s really good and healthy.” (Hamby, 57:29)

3. Generational Perspective and Forbearance (59:19–61:11)

• On Negative Partisanship

  • Lovett: “What we’re circling … is forbearance, which is just the idea of restraint and being willing to lose and willing to take a shot to your ego at times.” (59:19)
  • Both agree that the ability to live with discomfort and disagreement—a key to democracy—is eroding.

• Generational Trends

  • Millennial “immunity” against right-wing propaganda, boomers drifting left, Gen X and some Gen Z moving right.

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Highlighted Quotes

• “Maybe I’m just being idealistic … but it just feels like the fever swamps of the internet are just grabbing otherwise normal people and yanking them in. And it’s depressing to me.” — Peter Hamby (49:05)
• “The comfort that people have, right, whether it’s the shooting of the United Healthcare CEO or the killing of Charlie Kirk, that is morally wrong.” — Jon Lovett (47:16)
• “Influencers and creators are now on par with … local tv, news, radio … that’s a huge shift in just a few years.” — Peter Hamby (55:21)
• “Wrestling with ideas is really good and healthy, and not … just blind partisanship.” — Peter Hamby (57:29)

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Timestamps for Major Segments

• Political Violence and Rhetoric: 33:23–53:41
• Media Responsibility, Influencers: 53:41–57:29
• Generational & Cultural Analysis: 59:19–61:11

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Section 3: Fast Takes on Current Politics

Maine and California Primaries (64:12–75:44)

• Maine: Mills drops out, Platner surges—a young, populist, left-protagonist, but with baggage (Reddit posts, loan from father). Race will be tough due to state demographics and opponent’s popularity (Collins).
• California: A lackluster, “boring momentum” for Becerra as the safe candidate; opponents (Porter, Steyer) failing to connect. Debates lack big ideas or passion for robust solutions to California’s deep problems.
• Insight: Both races show the push-pull between grassroots progressivism and the establishment’s preference for safety.

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Memorable Moments

• Lovett’s humor and jabs:

  • “Shakespeare was familiar with metaphor as well, I think.” (34:46)
  • “Ernie’s or Burt and Ernie. Gay couple. Yeah.” (51:40)

• Hamby’s assessment of influencer culture:

  • “There are some insane YouTube tiles out there, man. There are some for sure.” (53:41)

• On Millennial Superiority:

  • “We are the best generation because we were vaccinated against Republicans by George W. Bush.” (Lovett, 60:02)

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Summary Table of Timestamps

| Segment | Speakers | Timestamps | |---------------------------------------------|-----------------------|------------------| | Bernie Sanders on AI Risk | Sanders, Lovett | 01:00–11:21 | | Big Tech, Money, Super PACs | Sanders, Lovett | 11:21–15:06 | | Automation and Jobs | Sanders, Lovett | 16:22–21:27 | | Democrats Shift on Israel | Sanders, Lovett | 21:27–26:34 | | Sanders on Jewish Values & Kibbutz Roots | Sanders, Lovett | 26:34–29:59 | | Political Violence & Online Culture | Hamby, Lovett | 33:23–53:41 | | Media, Influencers, Responsibility | Hamby, Lovett | 53:41–57:29 | | Generational/Forbearance | Hamby, Lovett | 59:19–61:11 | | Maine & California Primaries | Hamby, Lovett | 64:12–75:44 |

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For Listeners Who Missed the Episode

This episode is a must for anyone wrestling with the pace and direction of today’s politics: from the global challenge of AI to the grassroots revolt over Israel, to the dilemmas of public discourse in the algorithmic age. Lovett and Sanders are lucid, passionate, and occasionally comic. Hamby brings a reporter’s rigor and a generational perspective to the paradox of outrage, conspiracy, and influence. The episode closes with sharp, candid takes on the Maine and California primaries, exemplifying the intersections of big money, identity, and generational change reverberating through the Democratic Party.

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To the point, urgent, witty, and never afraid to get into the weeds—this episode is Pod Save America at its best.

Transcript

[Senator Bernie Sanders]

Foreign.

[John Lovett]

Welcome to Pont Save America. I'm John Lovett. Today on the show, I had a great conversation with Senator Bernie Sanders on AI Super PACs and his journey from a kid on a kibbutz in Israel to a senator trying to prevent weapons sales to Netanyahu and trying to save humanity from robots at the same time. And then you'll hear my conversation with our friend and journalist Peter Hamby, founding partner of Puck News and host of the Powers that Be podcast. On the Democratic shakeup in Maine, the governor's race in California, some news on the DNC and how the left ought to confront political violence. But first, here's my conversation with Bernie. Senator Sanders, welcome back to the show.

[Senator Bernie Sanders]

Good to be with you, John.

[John Lovett]

So I watched your panel last night on the existential risks of AI. You had researchers from North America and China. It was a bracing experience. There's a just for people that may not have caught it, MIT's Max Tegmark says we'll be like animals in a zoo. And then another researcher named David Krueger says zoos, most of us won't be so lucky. What did you take away? Why did you want to do this conversation?

[Senator Bernie Sanders]

Thank you, John, for asking me about that. I am not a tech guy, but I'm sitting around and I read and I listen to people, and it is clear to me that AI and robotics are the most revolutionary technologies in the history of humanity. They are going to transform life for every man, woman and child, certainly in our country and around the world. How the hell do we ignore that reality? Why is there not massive discussion about the impact of AI, for example? All right, who is pushing AI right now? Who's pushing AI and robotics? The richest guys in the world. Musk, Bezos, Ellison, Zuckerberg. What do you think they want? Do you think they're staying up nights worrying about your family? I doubt it. Number two, there are economists all over the place who estimate no one knows exactly. Tens and tens of millions of jobs are going to be lost. What happens to the people who lose the jobs? They automatically go out and get another job. That does not appear to be the case. We got kids hooked to AI bots for emotional support, becoming increasingly isolated. Should we worry about that? Yeah, we should. Politically, I won't get to what it will mean to our democracy and politics in America. It's a big deal. But what last night was about is having very knowledgeable people talking about the real possibility that AI will escape human control, become independent, do its own thing, and the likelihood that that could lead to catastrophic implications, including extinction. So my job is not to fear Monger, but it's to say, wait a second. You got Nobel prize winners Geoffrey Hinton saying this. Do you think we might want to take a deep breath and think about where we go from here?

[John Lovett]

Yeah, there's this strange fatalism about it. And I think about when we've gone through other big technological changes. You know, it wasn't assembly lines that put kids in factories. It was people that own the factories that made that decision. It's not, you know, it's not the technology itself that's being unleashed and hitting our kids and affecting our, you know, our media. It's the people who own those tools that are distributing them and profiting off of them. How do we. There's this way in which this technology, it seems like magic, and we kind of lose our senses. And one of the things that came out of your discussion last night is treat this company's product like you would a Toyota or a tortilla chip. So what kind of regulations would you like to see if we sort of got our heads out of our asses here?

[Senator Bernie Sanders]

Well, Tegmark, Dr. Tegmar from MIT said, Look, you go to a sandwich shop, you know what? It is regulated. The health department comes in to make sure the food you're eating is edible and none shop is clean. Yet the AI guys want to go forward with this revolutionary technology with no regulation. There is an enormous amount of work that has to be done. But, John, the first thing that has to be done is, is that we have got to say, slow it down. Let us get our hands around it. The AI safety element about AI becoming independent of human control, you just. What do you do? Well, clearly you bring people from all over the world. Last night, as you know, we had scientists from China bring them together to sit down, to advise governments around the world about how we slow this down so we don't lose control of the technology. In terms of economics, if millions and millions of workers lose their jobs, what do we do? Well, you know what? Extending unemployment ain't gonna be good enough. We're gonna have to be thinking about a whole new social contract, et cetera, et cetera. This is all that I'm saying here. This is a big, big deal. Congress is way behind where it should be. We need some serious discussion.

[John Lovett]

So you had Chinese voices as part of this conversation. Scott Besant, the Treasury Secretary, posted a criticism of you saying that the. That the real threat is letting any nation other than the United States set the global standard. What's your response to that criticism?

[Senator Bernie Sanders]

Right, Mr. Bessant, the billionaire and the Trump administration. Billionaires working with Elon Musk, Mark Zuckerberg. Mark Zuckerberg, Larry Ellison, and a host of other billionaires who dominate AI. They're not a threat. Hey, we should all trust them because they have the betterment of the American people at heart. Well, forgive me, I don't accept that at all. So I think in China, they are smart enough. Look, this gets me thinking about the nuclear arms race. You had a conservative Republican named Ronald Reagan sitting down with Gorbachev, then the premier of the Soviet Union talking about the reality that a nuclear war would not be good for the Soviet Union, not be good for the United States. They work together on a nuclear arms treaty. You know what? The world, human race losing control over AI ain't good for China, ain't good for America, ain't good for the world. Of course we've got to work together.

[John Lovett]

So as part of this you put forward, you proposed a moratorium on new data centers until we have these kinds of safeguards in place. Your colleague, Senator Mark Warner, who's a pretty, I think, mild mannered guy, called it idiocy because he's worried about losing this race to China. And I don't think he is. You know, he's not Trump, he's not Zuckerberg. What do you say to that criticism for people who both agree there might need to. That there do need to be safeguards. But also, as much as we worry about these billionaires having so much sway, it would be worse if control of this technology by China surpassed us.

[Senator Bernie Sanders]

This is not a race with China. This is a question of scientists sitting down and figuring out how we can prevent this technology from escaping human control with calamitous impact. I cannot believe that any sane person would be against that. That's my view. So this is not, you know, we got to get. Compete with China all you want, but we have got to do everything that we can to prevent what some scientists think is a very dangerous situation.

[John Lovett]

Yeah, I guess I agree with that. But it's almost like these are two separate questions, right? Because if we were to slow down and China didn't slow down, it's not preventing this extreme.

[Senator Bernie Sanders]

Look, the moratorium is not the end. All that I want from the moratorium is to give up. Maybe I'm crazy, John. Maybe I am. I know one or two people have told me about, including my wife. If scientists who are Nobel Prize winners, guys who've gotten the Turing Award, which is the major award given to people in computer science. If they say to you that humanity is in danger, do you think you might want to do something about it or am I missing something? You tell me.

[John Lovett]

So. No, the percentages are also someone's, oh, there's only a 10% chance humanity is destroyed. It's like, well, I don't like those odds.

[Senator Bernie Sanders]

Only a 10%. Chips. God.

[John Lovett]

I know. I'm with you.

[Senator Bernie Sanders]

This is the point. The point is that again, either I'm nuts or a 10% chance. Yeah. That the whole world might be destroyed. Yeah, I think we might want to get to work to prevent that. And this is preventable by the way. It's nothing to do with competing against China coming together to prevent what might be a catastrophe.

[John Lovett]

Right. It seems like that. Like, you know, you mentioned this in the past and last night, you know, President Trump and the leader of China, Xi, they're going to meet and AI may be part of what they're discussing. What do you hope, what do you hope would come out of that kind of conversation?

[Senator Bernie Sanders]

I was glad to see that the Wall Street Journal reported that that will be part of their agenda and that's a very positive thing. And I hope that they sit down and say, look, your scientists in the United States, scientists in China agree this is a danger. It works to nobody's advantage to allow this to happen. Okay, Not China, not the United States. Bring together the scientific community, develop some protocols to prevent that. You don't want a technology that can escape human control. Can we bring that about? We can, but you're going to have to have people from China, the United States, other countries working on something which would eventually then I suspect and a little bit over my head here, you know, become something like an international treaty.

[John Lovett]

Right. And then in between that, right. There's so there's the kind of broader threat of this technology escaping our control. But in between there and now, there's the ways in which kids are getting sucked into this technology. There's the ways it's affecting our media. And it does seem as though the industry would benefit from a set of regulations that allow them to compete on non evil aspects of the technology and continue to develop and grow and improve the technology in ways that are beneficial to people rather than these sort of toxic and parasitic implications.

[Senator Bernie Sanders]

Let's get to another issue. And to ask, you know, this is not because members of Congress are dumb or don't know what's going on. This has a lot to do with the power and the financial resources of AI and their super PACs. We're talking about many, many, many hundreds of millions of dollars coming into the midterm elections right now. So you're running for Congress, okay, and you had a kid, and you're worried about the impact of AI. You think you're going to stand up and say, well, you know, I think we need some sensible regulations here. And then the AI industry says, really? Well, guess what, I got a $10 million check going in to negative ads against you. Which takes us, John, from the dangers of AI to a corrupt campaign finance system, which is undermining American democracy.

[John Lovett]

So I talked to Senator Chris Murphy about this recently, and he's worried about this, too, that Democrats won't draw an effective contrast with Republicans. Trump and the Republicans, they forget sensible regulations. They even try to prevent state regulations. So they tried to take us in the other direction. But what Murphy was worried about is because there's this sort of Damocles of all this cash hanging over Democrats heads that people will not take a strong stand. What do you say to Democrats who worried about that?

[Senator Bernie Sanders]

Well, Chris, what Chris told you is right, but it speaks to the need for us to be honest about where we are as a country. Look, all of us are concerned about Trump's pathological lying, his attempt to undermine democracy in so many ways. I think every Democrat and independent caucuses with the Democrats agrees with that. But there is another threat to democracy, and that is the power of big money over the political process. And that is why I circulated a letter with a number of my colleagues saying that while we must work to overturn this disastrous Citizens United Supreme Court decision, which allows billionaires to spend as much money as they want to buy elections, at the very least, Democrats, within Democratic primaries, their presidential primaries as well as congressional and other primaries, got to get super PAC money out of those primaries. Yeah.

[John Lovett]

No, you sent that letter this week. It actually follows a letter you sent about a year ago. This was to Senator Schumer, to Ken Martin, the head of the DNC. Basically, let's first wear super PACs inside of our own primaries. And, you know, Ken Martin responded by saying he's in spirit behind it, but that his hands seem to be tied. What is the reluctance, do you think, of just fully embracing this kind of smiling? What's happening?

[Senator Bernie Sanders]

Tell me this is not a very hard question to answer. What do you think the answer is? What do you think the establishment, Democratic establishment is doing right now, as we speak, hustling this money?

[John Lovett]

Oh, they're right. That's right. Okay.

[Senator Bernie Sanders]

You know they are hustling money from AI industry, they're hustling money from apac, they're hustling money from crypto and from other special interests. All right, they got that money and they use what they do with it, what they do. But this is really insidious and I think progressives increasingly understand that that money often, which comes by the way from Trumpers Republicans, is going to be used against progressives and decent people who are running in primaries.

[Pod Save America Announcer]

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[John Lovett]

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[Senator Bernie Sanders]

Look, I think we have not yet our main thrust right now is to say slow it down so we can get our hands around all of this. And I just had a meeting today with my staff to start working on what a sensible solution would be. And it ain't easy stuff because what we're dealing with is unprecedented problems. But to your point, this in my view goes beyond saying we got to extend unemployment benefits. Fine. Yeah. We need what's called a trade adjustment assistance. If you lose your job to AI, we'll retrain you. Fine. It goes a lot deeper than that because this technological revolution is so sweeping that what we need to be talking about is a new social contract.

[John Lovett]

All right?

[Senator Bernie Sanders]

It's not say, hey, you lose your job, you can get unemployment. Great. We need to go a lot deeper than that because you may never get another job. You're a 50 year old truck driver today and you're replaced by a driverless vehicle. Where are you going to go out and get a job? It's not like you can walk down the street and get another job. That job may not be there. So we need to think really in new ways as to how we address these crises.

[John Lovett]

Yeah, I'm talking to you in California. And we live in a kind of signal example of this because we are, what, the fifth fourth largest economy in the world, driven primarily from half dozen companies in Silicon Valley that are growing exponentially but don't hire. They're not hiring at a rate to match the scale of their growth. And if we have a tax code in which we've lowered the corporate rate, we basically have said our tax code says we would rather a company be gigantic and employ no one than be kind of profitable while employing hundreds of thousands of people. That is what our tax code currently prefers.

[Senator Bernie Sanders]

Let me throw something else out to you here. And again, the truth is, nobody knows exactly what is going to happen. Honest people have differences of opinion as to the nature of the job loss, how quickly it will occur, et cetera. But if underlined, if tens of millions of people lose their jobs, they're not paying any taxes at all, are they? How are you going to sustain programs like Social Security, Medicare, Medicaid, et cetera, et cetera? How are you going to sustain government? These are profound questions that we've got to adjust. But bottom line is, I think we're talking about a new social compact. How do we make sure this revolutionary technology improves human life economically, socially, psychologically, and of course, prevents any kind of catastrophe?

[John Lovett]

Switching gears. In April of Last year, only 15 Democrats voted with your resolution to block weapons sales to Israel. Now, two weeks ago, 40 Democrats joined you. There's a profound shift happening, obviously, that is driven by the ways in which Israel has conducted its military campaign in Gaza, the way it has been expanding settlements, its incursion into Lebanon. What are you observing about this shift in Democratic politics among your colleagues? And what does it tell you about where we're heading, what it tells me,

[Senator Bernie Sanders]

and by the way, it is not just Democrats, it's Republicans as well. And I think you're going to see movement in the direction you described among Republicans in the not too distant future. Look, we have an economy in which 60% of our people are living paycheck to paycheck. People are hurting, can't afford health care, housing, educating their kids, childcare, et cetera. Then they look up and they see that President Trump wants to provide billions of dollars of military aid to the extremist Netanyahu government in Israel. And they look and they say, really? But what has this government done? And we all know that Hamas is a terrorist organization that attacked Israel in a horrible way, killing 1,200 people. Israel had a right to respond, but they did not have a right to go to war against the entire Palestinian people. 2.2 million people in the area killed, 72,000 of them, mostly women, children, and the elderly. Injured something like 170,000. That's more than 10% of the population killed or wounded. Wiped out almost the entire infrastructure. And what people, including myself, I think, have concluded this is a genocidal attack. So people are looking, then they say, well, that's bad. Why are we giving money to a government that does that? And then we wake up a few months ago, and Israel has gotten Netanyahu. After 40 years of effort, Netanyahu finally found a president who is willing to go to war against Iran. Tax Iran in the middle of the night, Great. We're off in another war. Price of gas is now going up. We're killing school children in Iran. Israel now is in Lebanon, displacing over a million people, killing, bombing civilian neighborhoods, as you indicated, in the west bank, like vigilantes now killing Palestinians, destroying farms, destroying homes. Who in their right mind wants to continue to fund a government that does that? And the polls tell us that. And Democrats look at the polls and they say, I go home, I hold a town meeting. Everybody says, why the hell are you funding Netanyahu's government? So they're beginning to catch on. And as you indicated more and more, now we have 40 out of 47 members of the caucus who's saying, no more.

[John Lovett]

Yeah, I mean, this has been an issue in primaries across the country right now that are playing out today. Janet Mills suspended her campaign, which means that Graham Plattner will be the nominee. He's somebody that's been outspoken about this. Did you have any reaction to what happened in Maine?

[Senator Bernie Sanders]

Yeah, I do. And I gotta tell you, John, you know, I've been all over the country, and you have to trust me on this. But whenever I talk about what was going on in Gaza, just people would stand up and really express their feelings. This is a very emotional issue for people all over this country who do not want to be complicit in killing women and children and destroying all of Gaza. So I think what Platner is doing, he has run a brilliant campaign to my mind, not dissimilar. Maine is obviously a very rural state, but not radically dissimilar from what Mamdani did in New York City, which is clearly the largest city in America. What do they do? They both have taken, brought forth an agenda that is prepared to take on the oligarchs and the big money interest. Nobody or very few people in America think that it's okay that the top 1% now owns more wealth than the bottom 93% or that Elon Musk himself owns more wealth than than the bottom 53% of American households. That make sense. So Mohan Gandhi talked about it. That's what Platner is talking about. And they have an agenda that speaks to the needs of working people. Health care for all, education for all, etc. Etc. So I see that happening not just in New York City and Maine, I see it happening in communities all over this country. Tomorrow, as a matter of fact, tomorrow night, I will be in Ohio. Then I'll be in Minnesota. Then I'll be in Detroit with Abdul El Sayed in Detroit, Peggy Flanagan in Minnesota. Mr. Poindexter. Brian Poindexter in Ohio. People now are raising these issues. Working class people are sick and tired of the greed of the big money interests. They want a government that represents all of us, not just a few.

[John Lovett]

So you spent time in Israel as a young man on a kibbutz. You've talked about being part of the Jewish tradition of social justice. A few years ago you wrote about this. You said your pride and admiration for Israel lives alongside your support for Palestinian freedom and independence. What do you say to people, especially younger Jewish people, who find it impossible to feel any pride or admiration for an Israel that does not uphold Jewish values?

[Senator Bernie Sanders]

But look, right now you have. You know, when you talk about what I don't like and Netanyahu pushes this all of the time, that if you are critical of the horrific policies of the Netanyahu government, you are somehow an anti Semite. And that is totally absurd. As it happens, my father's family was kind of wiped out in Poland by Hitler. I'm not an antisemite. And in fact, antisemitism is a growing and serious problem all over the world. What has gone on, for whatever reason that I am not the most knowledgeable guy in the world on Israel over the last number of years has gone from being a moderate liberal type country to a right wing extremist country in which by the way, Netanyahu is not even the worst. You're talking about guys there really kind of racist guys who really want expansionism. So we have got to oppose that government. And hopefully the day will come when Israel will elect people who understand that we need to, they need to be working with their neighbors and not just simply trying to dominate them in terrible ways.

[John Lovett]

What do you say to younger people, especially younger Jews who now feel, you know, they, they grew up seeing an Israel led by Netanyahu. They've watched these atrocities unfold over the last few years and it's led them to believe the problem just isn't Benjamin Netanyahu, that there's something fundamentally wrong about the project of Israel.

[Senator Bernie Sanders]

I don't have a magical answer to that right now. But right now what I am trying to do is to make sure that the United States government is not complicit in the horrific acts of the Netanyahu government. We can talk about where we go from there, but that's where I am right now.

[John Lovett]

What do you think if you saw that 20 something Bernie Sanders on a kibbutz and you said, hey, 60 years from now I'm gonna be fighting in the Senate against the robots.

[Senator Bernie Sanders]

Well, it's gone. And by the way, I will tell you, when I was, you know, I don't know how much you know about the history of the kibbutzim from formed by Jews who left the anti Semitism of Europe. When I was, these were very, very progressive entities. Women, it was democratically owned and controlled. Women had rights that they didn't have in the United States, were leaders in a way that was not true. Older people were playing an active role. It was an interesting and novel model which I happen to believe in. But obviously that is not what Israel is about today. And going from where I was as a kid to being a United States Senator dealing with these issues, it's been a long journey to say the least. Yeah.

[John Lovett]

Senator Sanders, thanks for your time. Good to talk to you.

[Senator Bernie Sanders]

Thank you, Joe.

[John Lovett]

Thanks to Senator Sanders for joining us. When we come back, I talk to Peter Hamby.

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[Peter Hamby]

Good to see you, John.

[John Lovett]

All right, so I want to start with your piece of on political violence. You wrote, Democratic elected and other party leaders vehemently condemn political violence all the time, but many on the left have become too comfortable celebrating violence or bad luck that befalls their Trumpian enemies. They are too loose with their language, too cozy with conspiracies that can lead to a dark place. Now, you're very clear in this piece which you wrote after the assassination attempt at the White House Correspondent Dinner, very clear about the ways in which the right looks past Trump's calls to violence, exploits tragedies to target the left. I keep saying that, but even still, I am sure there are people hearing this and thinking the most powerful person on the earth encouraged an insurrection, seeks to jail his enemies, celebrates the deaths of people like Robert Mueller and Rob Reiner. And you're talking about random people on the Internet. So what are you seeing and why do you think it's important?

[Peter Hamby]

I think the phrase random people on the Internet actually matters. First of all, and I do want to say thank you for saying that, acknowledging that part of the piece, because I felt like I wrote 10 paragraphs about Caroline Levitt mischaracterizing or lying about how Various people, Hakeem Jeffries use terms like warfare, quote unquote, to refer to redistricting, the redistricting wars. I mean, we've both been in politics for a long time. People use terms like combat or murder, suicide or just violent martial terms. This comes up in sports commentary all the time.

[John Lovett]

Shakespeare was familiar with metaphor as well, I think.

[Peter Hamby]

Yeah.

[John Lovett]

And I consider Hakeem Jeffries the Shakespeare of people that do the Alphabet.

[Peter Hamby]

Yeah, I do too. I consider the nos of people who do the Alphabet. He would like that reference. I think that the random people on the Internet thing matters. And I thought about this with, with John Favreau, other John, who after Charlie Kirk was killed noticed, yes, random people on the Internet, random tiktokers celebrating his death. And even as I was walking in here, Taylor Lorenz posted a tweet, or maybe not a tweet, maybe a blue sky or a thread that people are using the sound of Charlie Kirk getting shot, the gunshot, to do quick cut edits of outfit changes. And that just again diminishes. I think I didn't know that what happened. And you don't have to like Charlie Kirk. I don't. This is the other thing, John. I know coming in here. This is a founding principle of crooked media. And I feel like this came from John Lovett brain, which is the DC media's tendency to both sides think that is not me. And for the people listening, I'm not that journalist, but I was there in the ballroom. And part of it too is I've read polls, right. Like in the first Trump term, obviously in the Obama years, you know, people blamed Trump and Republicans for the crazy, for the conspiracy theories voters did. NPR had a poll, I think in 2017 saying 70% of voters blame Trump and Republicans for the toxicity of in our politics. And there was a moral and intellectual high ground, I think in the Democratic Party. There hasn't been widespread political violence coming from the left since the seventies with the Weather Underground, Black Panthers, et cetera. There's obviously been anti government violence. You've got black bloc, antifa types and whatever. But there has been an uptick in partisan motivated, not just violence, but plots. There was somebody who showed up at the Capitol last year wanting to kill Pete Hegseth. That person was arrested. There's obviously two of the three assassins, attempted assassins on Donald Trump sounded like they had left leaning political views. And again, back to the random people on the Internet thing. It's not coming from Democratic politicians. It's not. It's really not. Now there's like Jasmine Crockett posted Conspiracy Theory the other day that the attack on the Washington Hilton might have been a false flag or whatever. The problem is the diminishing power of people like me in the mainstream press and the diminishing ability of normie politicians to, you know, get out there in the information ecosystem and have people hear them. That stuff is being replaced just by noise and slop on the Internet. And it does seem like to me, and I think the evidence in the polling bears this out, that, you know, liberals and progressives and by the way, some of these people might just be fake bots. They might be. They might, you know, J.D. vance likes to totally in the right, completely exploit, you know, even the fringiest thing that you found on the Internet and pretend it's like the mainstream view of the Democratic Party. And I make clear in the piece, as you read, Democrats aren't the ones saying this. It is, though, kind of ambient on the Internet. And I think I actually wanted to ask you about this. The Michelle Obama, they, you know, when they go low, we go high thing. That's. That feels dead and gone and like, millennial cringe at this point in the second Trump term. There has, it has been celebrated that, like, we're going to fight dirty. It's. And I'm not, I'm not trying to be civility police either, dude, at all. But, like, people just feel like, okay, we're going to play on their terms, get in their sandbox, we're going to throw punches, call names, and then, you know, then maybe, maybe you end up with a guy who's got a screw loose, who hears all this stuff on the Internet and thinks, I've got to go kill the rapist, fascist pedophile in the White House. I just think that it's easier to hear the crazy stuff that the algorithms have poured gasoline on than it ever was. And you just hear it more on the left than I think you used to.

[John Lovett]

Yeah. It's like there's so many parts that you have to tease out. Right. And there's an. A big distinction. It isn't coming from the vast majority of Democratic politicians. Right. And there is just a distinction between how responsible elected Republicans are, including the president, versus how responsible elected Democrats are. Even this week we saw what is obviously a ridiculous prosecution of James Comey. The number of Republicans refusing to criticize that or openly embracing that. People going, members of Congress saying, well, look at all the other bad things Jim Comey did. Right. It is distinct from political violence. But embracing the Jailing of your political enemies on specious reasons is adjacent to a politics in which people can celebrate political violence. But the challenge is most Americans deplore political violence. All the mainstream politicians on the left can deplore political violence. 95% of people say the right thing, then the next day, 100% of people spend the day talking about what the 5% said and how heinous it is and how it's actually justified and all the rest. You know, we at Crooked Media, I feel like we take some flack from all directions for this, but we obviously denounce Republicans when they try to exploit political violence. We also try to go after what we see people when we see people justifying it. John, as you mentioned, did that as well in the piece. But if everybody but a few are doing the right thing, but we end up talking about what the wrong thing is, like I don't know what the right thing. How do you respond In a media environment like that in which we try to model best behavior, the Democrats say the right thing, but you have Republicans that are going to pull out the worst comments from the Internet. You have an algorithm that's going to elevate the most exciting and morally depraved comments. Like, what do we do? We do okay, I agree there's a problem. What do we do?

[Peter Hamby]

Yeah, well, that's getting you to say that. I know. I mean, you're a sophisticated thinker about this stuff. So it is important to say that there was a problem. And I want to say this isn't just my feelings. This is me being a hack political journalist. I should point out also in the piece, the center for Strategic and International Studies, which has measured this and has kept track of incidents. 2025 was the first year ever that left wing violence and plots and or plots surpass right wing violence and or plots. Say it's only eight plots. That's only eight plots. And this is another thing I need to say again. Like the left was. There was no violence, no plots for like 30 years. Most of the actual deaths from political violence in this country over the last 30 years have come from right wing political violence. And we're talking like in the hundreds, okay? And so yes, the baseline for Democrats and the left, whatever the coalition is, was very low. It just has ticked up. And I think you're though, right, John, I remember when I worked at CNN back when you were in the White House in the 2010s, there was this like, do you remember watching like cable news in that era and CNN where I worked or wherever. Like, a random Republican state legislator in Missouri would say something loony about abortion or something racist about Obama, and we would all elevate it. Be like, this is an example of the Republican Party being nuts. And while the Republican Party does have a tendency to accommodate. And by the way, this is just history, you know, the Birchers and the conspiracy theorists and whatever you'd hear from someone on Capitol Hill, like someone from like, John Thune's office, like, why the fuck are you talking about this random guy in Missouri? And so that is a absolute attentional problem that the press has and kind of always has. By the way, since then, that random state senator in Missouri is now probably on Capitol Hill in the mainstream of the Republican Party. I just think it is what you guys do. It's that you have to call it out and say there's no room for it. And the other thing worth talking about isn't just violence. It is the conspiracy theorizing. And those two are not the same, but they are connected. You know, the people who I think tend to commit acts of violence in the name of politics, like, seize on conspiracy theories. They do. And I noticed this on Snapchat when I put, I work at SNAP and like, posted on snap. I had a bunch of people in my comments being like, fake stage, whatever. It's not. We don't know that those people are even Democrats. They could just be some teenager like, on. On, like sitting in their basement somewhere. But there this has been happening again. This gets to the higher intellectual standard that I think Democrats used to hold themselves to in Obama's term. At some point, some press conference in the Tan Suit era might have been like Ed Henry. It was like in the White House briefing room, and there was the latest outrage of the day. Whatever somebody wanted Obama to be outraged about. I think it was Ed Henry. He said, you know, Mr. President, why are you more outraged? And I tried to look this up before coming in. I couldn't find it. Someone listening, please find it. It's probably in Favreau's encyclopedic brain. But Obama looks at him and goes, because I haven't read the briefs. And that was Obama being a lawyer, but it was also just a smart person who hewed closely to facts and didn't want to, like, spout off on something where he didn't, like, know the baseline information. And we've come a long way on the Internet since then. Like, social media has rampantly changed how people's instincts when it comes to responding, gathering facts and you know, I think that's hurt everybody. It's hurt everybody across the board. And, you know, I just think that you see it more now on the left than you used to. I sting out that article with a quote from Isaac Asimov, who was a, became a big Democrat later in his life. Hated Nixon like just a raging Democrat. And he said, like the anti intellectual strain in this country was always on the right and liberals would fight ignorance with knowledge and conservatives would fight knowledge with ignorance. There's a lot more ignorance out there, man, on the left now. I'm sorry, there just is. And like, maybe I'm just being idealistic about, you know, the great thinkers of the American left and what they cared about compared to the right. But it just feels like the fever swamps of the Internet are just grabbing otherwise normal people and yanking them in. And it's depressing to me.

[John Lovett]

Yeah, I don't know, it's hard not, you know, you know, to be nostalgic for how we used to have information. Look, I see it too, and I do think it's more than just a few random people. There is something that has happened and it isn't coming from the politicians. I do think there's a bigger shift and I think it's important. As you pointed out, political violence in our country still is very, very rare. And so I feel like there's these two ideas you have to have in your mind at the same time. One being that we can't allow acts of violence by individuals who are united, regardless of ideology, by a willingness to do violence. Right. That's the most important thing about a mass shooter, about the person that shot Charlie Kirk, this person, the person that shot at Gabby Giffords.

[Senator Bernie Sanders]

Right.

[John Lovett]

That they are willing to go to this extreme and do violence. And sometimes their rationales are cogent, sometimes their rationales are nonsense. It's the act of violence that unites them. And there's something rising, whether it's people willing to shoot up a school, people wanting to go out of a blaze of glory, and we cannot arrange our society around that. We can't allow that to warp our politics too much because it is so rare in our society. But at the same time, like, it does seem to be like an emergent property of the amount of vitriol, hate, lack of empathy, cruelty on the Internet and beyond. I think that Trump is both a cause of and a symptom of. And I, and it's, and I struggle with how you think about this, those two things. But the comfort that people have, right. Whether it's the shooting of the United Healthcare CEO or the killing of Charlie Kirk that is morally wrong. Before you even get to whether it will encourage future violence, it said something really ugly about our politics and our culture. And I do think that that is real. So that's the thing I struggle with.

[Peter Hamby]

There's something else interesting. I just. This is an obvious thought, but I just thought about it. When you think about Luigi, you think about the butler shooter. We don't know his politics, and the guy from the Hilton. All these people and the Charlie Crick shooter are young and, like, obviously there's the. The idea of the school shooter and the serial killer and the lone wolf killer out there tend to be white men. But all of these examples are people who grew up online. We grew up online, but like, in middle school and high school, I just had aol. Like, these people grew up with phones in their pockets. And so that they have so many more touch points to dark places on the Internet. But in dark places, that's sort of what I'm talking about. It's that, you know, like, Jennifer Welch on the. I've had a podcast the other day was entertaining these conspiracy theories about how Trump was like, this was a false flag so he could develop Ballroom. I'm not saying she's spreading hate speech, but, like, that's one of the ascendant podcasters on the left. Like, I just. There aren't any real epistemological boundaries. I feel like at this point, and, you know, you can be a liberal and listen to Jennifer Welch or this, or go on a twitch stream or whatever, but all of those young people, like you said, I'm not being nostalgic for an old media time necessarily. I'm just like, I call myself a student of media history, but they don't know a time of, like, monoculture, Walter Cronkite, anything. There's no shared facts. And, like, you know, it just. The conspiracy depresses me.

[John Lovett]

Yeah. Like, the conspiracy theory embrace that we see across the board. I do think there's something about.

[Peter Hamby]

Some people think it's just fun. By the way, like, I have friends who are like, conspiracy theories are fun.

[John Lovett]

Yeah. There's something about the way in which the Internet encourages you that we are all being encouraged to embrace easy and quick comfort across our lives. And social media does that. Right. Like, you don't have to have any discipline of attention whatsoever. You can just get a jolt of something fun, something funny, something outrageous, whatever. Get a quick hit of an endorphin or an emotion you don't have to leave the house to see a movie. You can just stay in bed, whatever. You can have food come to your house. Like we have. We're very. We're easy. Easy to satisfy, uncomfortable with any kind of discomfort. And when there's something horrible that happens, like the killing of Charlie Kirk, in which you, I think, morally, are called to denounce the killing of someone you found reprehensible, that tiny bit of friction, that tiny bit of discomfort, there's a whole algorithm that's telling you you don't have to feel that anymore. And the same thing with someone trying to assassinate Donald Trump because of views you might agree with. Wouldn't it be nice if there were a way you didn't have to sit with that for even a moment? Well, guess what? There is. Because it turns out maybe it was staged. And we live in a crazy world in which there were legitimate news stories that in Hungary, Trump's ally, there was a plan to stage an assassination attempt to help Viktor Orban in the final days of the election. That is real. Reporting about something real that very well could have happened in the world.

[Peter Hamby]

There's also a conspiracy theory that Trump wouldn't leave office if he lost.

[John Lovett]

Of course. Of course. And there was a conspiracy theory that a powerful cabal of abusers were protecting Jeffrey Epstein. Like, a lot of people have come to believe that conspiracy theories had some merit. And the truth is, the great conspiracy theories always do begin with a kernel of truth in them, or a lot of the great ones do. Like, so I understand where that impulse comes from, and I understand how the Internet feeds it.

[Peter Hamby]

Yeah. I just think that it is incumbent upon Democratic politicians to try so hard to keep the. What was Ernie in the trash can? Like, whatever. Just, like, push, push it down. Like, Mark Kelly came out with the. Was that Oscar. Was the Oscar right?

[John Lovett]

Ernie's or Burton Ernie. Gay couple. Yeah.

[Peter Hamby]

Sorry, no offense to the happy gay. No, Mark Kelly put out. I mean, who cares what Mark Kelly thinks? But, like a substack, I care.

[Senator Bernie Sanders]

Sure.

[John Lovett]

I care what Mark Kelly thinks. I care.

[Peter Hamby]

And I. I think you said the other day on this podcast referencing Chris Murphy talking after the United Healthcare murder. I forget the anecdote. Why did this come up? I think, like, Nate Silver wrote about it, that he sort of said, like, I acknowledge why people, like, hate insurance companies. What did Chris Murphy.

[John Lovett]

I was referencing people who had. I was referencing that someone, I think, like a prominent conservative had said that the shooter at the White House correspondent's dinner. His rhetoric is indistinguishable. From that of Chris Murphy. As if that's an indictment of Chris Murphy. Got it. That's what I was referring to, I believe.

[Peter Hamby]

I think. I don't want to pair, like, miscast what Chris Murphy said. He's probably listening. But again, the press certainly has less power than we used to. And you know, maybe wrongly, the press was the arbiter of common decency for many decades in this country. But, you know, politicians are akin to where people get a lot of news now. Influencers, creators, they're famous people on the Internet, that's who they are. And they have a responsibility to call it out when it happens. It's just really hard. Like again, this is in a leaderless party. No one like attention matters. Getting attention matters. This is one of my beats. Like Ro Khanna can call it out, Chuck Schumer can call it out, Alyssa Slotkin can call it out. But you know, which random normie in Ohio is listening to any of those people?

[John Lovett]

Well, look, I think sometimes in our politics we treat Democrats like the protagonist with agency, and Republicans are the villains who will do what villains do. I sometimes think we do the same thing with people on the Internet now, that of course Democratic politicians are gonna say the same thing. But there's nothing we can do about the influencers. But influencers have responsibility. And I think part of this is, I think as there are some insane

[Peter Hamby]

YouTube tiles out there, man. There are some for sure.

[John Lovett]

But the. I don't know, I think sometimes we have to. If the people who are going to be helping to shape what people view as the kind of bounds of appropriate political discourse, if that's not going to be coming from politicians or mainstream media, if it's going to become from people on the Internet, then that comes with responsibility. You know, like in, in 2024, I think a lot of people felt like you had people in the kind of manosphere, the kind of independent, kind of right adjacent podcast world embracing their power, but not their responsibility. Right. Their power to influence, their power to get big people on their power to reach tens of millions of people, but not their responsibility.

[Peter Hamby]

Yeah, they're just an unfrozen caveman lawyer. They don't know what's going on.

[John Lovett]

Right? Yeah, yeah. I'm just a big chicken. I'm just a big chicken.

[Peter Hamby]

You know what's funny about that? I have some data on this. This week the AP came out with a poll about media habits. And it's a really interesting poll because they also poll teenagers, but all the elite sort of things that we do as former DCers and political junkies. Listen to podcasts, subscribe to newsletters. I'm trying to think of some other ones. Oh, pay for, subscribe to news. Vast majorities of Americans don't do those things. They really don't. And by the way, podcast's a little different. Cause they'll also watch it on YouTube or whatever. But the one thing that has really popped is influencers and creators for a long time in these polls. Could be Pew, could be AP that ask people how they got their news. Social media was just sort of an umbrella term. That could be snap, it could be YouTube, it could be meta, whatever.

[John Lovett]

Could be clips of mainstream content, by the way, as well.

[Peter Hamby]

Totally. But they actually asked specifically about influencers and creators. And near majorities of Americans say they get news from influencers and creators now. And that's a huge shift in just a few years. And so that gets to what you're saying about responsibility. Influencers and creators are now on the par. On par with, according to this poll, local tv, news, radio, terrestrial radio still matters. Search engines still matter way more than like, AI and like television. And so, like, that's just really, really taken off. And I agree with you. And you've seen that with the Ovon and Andrew Schultz after the election when, you know, they're deporting, rounding up and deporting people and separating mothers from their children or whatever. Doge, I didn't vote for this because I was just playing the humble, unfrozen caveman lawyer. But they have to. I think they're becoming more responsible, actually, at least in terms of acknowledging their power. These people were at the inauguration for the president, United States.

[John Lovett]

But, and I, and I do think that we're due for a similar turn on the left of people with big platforms who reach a big audience viewing a responsibility and, and like, you know, we're here and we try to have honest conversations, but part of being, having. I think part of what being responsible it is, is you try to be honest, critical, where you think it's helpful, critical. Maybe we think it's unhelpful, but needs to be said at times. But view, view what you're trying to do as, as more than just saying what you happen to think or feel in that moment. Right. Like, that's what I think the difference is between what Obama did in that press conference you're talking about and what a lot of members of Congress do every time a camera comes in front of their faces, which is just take a moment and say, you know what, I'm gonna take a beat and make sure that I'm sharing good information or like interrogating a bias for one moment or knowing that even if I feel something in the moment that I believe is true, I know that I have a responsibility to my audience to not become a tool of the right.

[Peter Hamby]

Yeah, I also think I really want to pay you guys a sincere compliment and I'm friends with you. We live in the same city, we socialize. I get that. I still listen to this podcast despite knowing how personally annoying each and every one of you is. Because you are willing to interrogate collective assumptions on the left, you are willing to tangle with those ideas. You know, we saw it this week with the Ken Martin interview. But you guys frequently will have people on and I think this a lot about a variety of left leaning media. You don't just tell people what they want to hear. You tell people sometimes, sometimes maybe not as much as other news organizations what they need to hear. And I think that's really important because I do think that maybe this is the Obama, you know, example, but like wrestling with ideas is like really good. It's really good and healthy and not. There's just such blind partisanship now. And this is where I will say on both sides that, you know, the battle for ideas is hard. It's hard to inhabit not the middle, but it's hard to present nuance to people. That's why I wrote 10 paragraphs in that frickin Puck article before I could get to the point, because I had to say over and over again, Trump inspired. January 6th, Trump inspired mail bombers. The Trump Republican Party welcomed Nazis and liars and mainstreamed this poison. But you know, social media has taken it to another level and other people are getting yanked into it.

[John Lovett]

The I think what we're talking about, and that's very nice of you to say, it's not, it is not my experience that there's a lot of blind partisanship on the left. My view of where we're at right

[Peter Hamby]

now is actually, but sorry, blind negative

[John Lovett]

partisanship, Negative partisan, that's for sure. No, I agree with that. But what I was going to say only is that I think like what we're circling, which I think relates to the conspiracy theories, the willingness to celebrate or kind of tolerate or kind of even just sort of minimize political violence, like it's forbearance, which is just the idea of restraint and being like kind of willing to lose and willing to take a shot to your ego at times.

[Peter Hamby]

In Politics. This is why us old millennials are the best generation.

[John Lovett]

We are, you know, we are the best generation.

[Peter Hamby]

We are the best generation because we

[John Lovett]

were vaccinated against Republicans by George W. Bush. Continue.

[Peter Hamby]

We had debates in our dorms, you know, at Georgetown we had something called Red Square, which was a free speech zone. I know that sounds anathema now, but like you could have debates and interrogate things. You didn't have social media poisoning it. You know, I don't know, maybe that's an elite view, but baby boomers went to the right.

[John Lovett]

Gen X is the last redoubt of Donald Trump right now.

[Peter Hamby]

Well, boomers, by the way, boomers are. I wrote about this last year. Boomers are drifted to the left because boomers now are hippies. Boomers are our parents. But that, so they still, still hold onto some, you know, pluralistic values. Gen X is the bad one because they were. Alex P. Keaton, like, the thing that happens is your politics in your 20s. Like that's what it generally is later in life. And so the Gen X folks, you know, put aside all the rock music and pop culture. Like those were the Alex P. Keat.

[John Lovett]

So yeah, the Gen X has really kind of moved to the right. But then also some of the Gen Z has moved a bit to the right and millennials actually not moving to the right at the same degree over time as previous generations have. The millennials are holding out. Greatest generation. Thank you. All right.

[Peter Hamby]

Hear that bro call.

[John Lovett]

Yeah, whatever. What happened to him? All right, before we go to break, I want to thank everybody who has become a friend of the POD subscriber. And if you haven't subscribed yet, please, please, please become a friend of the pod. Join this community. You get our special episode, Pod Save America Only friends. That's where we really let loose with our Pod Save America episode. That's just for subscribers. You get Polar Coaster, that's Dan's show where he breaks down all the latest polling. You get open Tabs, the behind the scenes newsletter from PSA editor Reed Churlin. There's ad free breaking news from POD Save America. And not only do you get all of that great content and ad free episodes, you help support independent pro democracy media. It is one of the most important ways you can help support what we're building here at Crooked. So go to crooked.com friends to sign up now. It is genuinely how we help get more good information to more people. So thank you very much. With Vrbill's last minute deals, you can save over $50 on your spring getaway. So whether it's a mountain escape city break or a week at the beach,

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[John Lovett]

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[Senator Bernie Sanders]

We've planned for the plot twists, so

[John Lovett]

support is always available. Because a great trip starts with peace of mind.

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Give it a shot.

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[John Lovett]

all right, let's hit some more topics. Platner. Janet Mills out Pluto reported yesterday and called from Democrats for Schumer to drop his involvement in the Iowa and Michigan primaries. What was your reaction to the Mills news and the general state of play in these primaries?

[Peter Hamby]

Surprised, but not surprised. I think Mills got in late. Platner got in what, last August September went super viral, raised a lot of money. Great vibes for the moment, nationally for Democrats, you know, raging against the establishment. I am more looking forward than thinking about the surprise because he was up 3340 points in the most recent. I think Emerson had him up 33 at the end of April. This is a jump ball race. Like, it's going to be very hard, and they are. Graham Platner does have baggage. And it's not even the. The Totenkonf tattoo or whatever. It's the Reddit post. I think we saw an article in the Free Beacon today, which is an oppo dump for Republicans, showing that Platner paid for his house with a loan from his wealthy father, not the VA like he said. I just think there's lots of stuff there. And by the way, all this is to say he can still win. Trump's at like 33, 34% approval. I think Maine is tougher than certain states, and here's why. And again, he can win. A lot of times you win with a pure contrast. And she's unpopular. Susan Collins, I think her own faves are like 57%. They gotta win there. They gotta win Alaska, they gotta win Ohio and Iowa and all these places. Maine is the oldest electorate in the country. So it's also not very partisan. You've got a third of the state is independent, John. So, you know, that helps someone like Platner, I think, like, I'm not from the system that could appeal. You've got that Maine 2nd congressional district, which is represented by Jared golden for a while, who's a moderate in a different. Like Platner's a lib. Goldman was a moderate. Both have tattoos, but he won in Maine too, which is a district Trump has won in the last two presidential elections by being just a purebred moderate. Jared Golden. So, you know, putting on Reddit that black people don't tip, that women shouldn't get so drunk that they get sexually assaulted. Honestly, I loved this episode that I forget which content it was from crooked media. But Pfeiffer and Alex Wagner did a piece on this a couple weeks ago, and it was really interesting listening to Alex, and I thought she was very sharp because I think a lot of the initial commentary supporting Platner when jumped in the race was coming from men. And when these posts came out, not that Alex Wagner wouldn't vote for Grant Platner versus Susan Collins, but, like, I think women might be a little squeamish about this, about him in a race against a woman that you know, has successfully won over and over and over again. Also brought some reporting to the show. I learned from journalism, from Republican pollsters that they had 12 to 13% of Susan, Susan, past Susan Collins voters going for Janet Mills in this election. So that plays to what Schumer was probably thinking about. Like, this is an independent, older state, and we need someone safe to run against someone who's been reliably reelected. So Platner's got some work to do, I think, to reassure. He's a young millennial with tattoos, a history of inflammatory Reddit posts. We don't clearly, I think Republicans are sitting on more stuff. That's why I brought up the Free Beacon example. And he's got to convince voters in a state, it's like an old state, and that's, it's, it's gonna be tough for him. But in this environment, Trump's, Trump's approval rings are absolute dog shit. That's why we're talking about Alaska. That's why we're talking about Maine. That's why we're talking about even Ohio and Iowa.

[John Lovett]

We're in the home stretch here of the California governor's race. The two highest vote getters will move on to the general post. Small wall. We've seen polls that show Becerra rising. CBS poll this week had Steve Hilton leading with 16, Ben Stire at 15, Becerra at 13. Other polls have Becerra higher. Where's your head at on this, on this race right now?

[Peter Hamby]

I think someone smartly framed it this way to me and look nationally like you might not care about governor's race. California matters. Like, like Gavin Newsom will set a tailpipe, emission regulation, and the rest of the country will follow. Like, that's, that's what California is. So, yes, these candidates are underwhelming. Someone compared it to the 2020 presidential primary where you've got not just Tom Steyer once again spending a lot of money, but you've got all these candidates who fail to catch fire. They pop in certain moments and fade. Javier Becerra is just sort of emerging the last four polls too independent, I think, and two sort of partisan have showed him climbing and having clear momentum. Sty and Katie Porter having a very hard time connecting with high information voters. There's. Their negatives are very high. For all the money that Tom Stier is spending, he's, they kind of are hitting a ceiling, but Sarah has kind of come from behind to go to the front. I didn't quite get it either. It kind of Came out of nowhere organically. He's not. Hasn't spent a lot of money on television.

[John Lovett]

I believe he spent. He spent the money. He has. I think he spent.

[Peter Hamby]

Yeah, he went up on TV like three, three or four weeks ago at

[John Lovett]

a key moment when he had dropped. Right. Well, I think as Swalwell was dropping before. Swallow, drop. He's up on the air.

[Pod Save America Announcer]

Yes.

[John Lovett]

And so he's up on the air at a moment where all of a sudden there's all these Swalwell voters saying, oops, yes.

[Peter Hamby]

And Javier Becerra is a boring person. Javier Becerra. I talked to someone in the Biden administration about this the other day. Kind of aloof as HHS secretary. Not incompetent, but just sort of like he's not lighting the world on fire. Okay. But he does have two things going for him right now in this governor's race, and which is, by the primary's in June, he. There's a lot of confusion among voters. People don't like the choices and they're just kind of falling back on him, which is sort of similar to the Biden experience in 2020. Right. He just. You can win the primary at 23% of the vote, 25 of the vote. I'm not saying it's totally the same. And he's Latino. I mean, a third of the state is Latino. And I think the first part of that spot that went on TV about a month ago, it wasn't like Prop 50. It wasn't like Adam Schiff versus Katie Porter, like, we gotta stop Donald Trump. It wasn't like Swalwell. It was my parents were immigrants. And it leads with bio. And then it gets into, you know, working class affordability issues, health care, prescription drugs. And so for all of the forgive my term lib slop that you see in some of these TV ads and campaigns, like just raging against Trump and trying to go after the hardcore college educated white MSNBC viewer voter, you know, he reaches a different kind of voter than just that. And that's the thing. Like Porter, Steyer, Swalwell. There was no, no data suggesting they had any numbers of people of color in this state. And so Becerra is just emerging as, like a safe choice right now. Steyer's going after him already. He's not a great debater. There's two debates coming up this coming week, I think CNN and NBC. So we'll see if he can make it all the way to June. But he, he is the one with momentum right now. But it's Sort of like boring momentum. I don't even have a word for it.

[John Lovett]

Yeah, no, I watched the last debate. I didn't watch. There was another debate this week.

[Peter Hamby]

Oh, it's terrible.

[John Lovett]

The first debate. And there was a moment where they were all asked if they would support a per mile tax for electric vehicles because California has a very high gas tax. I think it's like 60 or some odd cents a gallon, maybe a little more now. And so there's this idea that, well, we switch to electric vehicles, then no one's going to be paying for the roads, even though California has the worst roads in the country and we pay the highest gas tax in the country. And so the question was, would you support a per mile tax for electric vehicles? And it got to Becerra. And Becerra said, well, it's definitely something we ought to perhaps take a look at. If that's something the voters are interested in, then I could get behind it. And then you go to, I think it was one of the Republicans and they're like, you're going to make everybody log all their miles? Hell fucking no. And I was like, that makes like there's a, like the passion on that stage. I was, I talked to Katie Porter about this in my conversation with her that California is in an emergency. Yes, we are losing people, we are losing our industries. And the only people up there that seem to have fire about it were the Republicans.

[Peter Hamby]

The right wing sheriff guy was like talking about the humanitarian crisis of homeless people. And like again, his ideas are probably not great, but like he had passion and you nailed it. I was meant to say this about Becerra actually. None of these people have big ideas. Stires like will break up the utilities, pass a billionaires tax, whatever. But like there was a question, this was a moderator issue actually in the CBS debate where they said, what are the first things you would do in the event of an earthquake? Like as governor, you're governor, you're in that seat. What are the three things you're going to do? You know, the thoughtful political leader would have said, well, like let's think bigger, like how do we not get in that position in the first place, whatever. But they were all very content to be like, Becerra included. Well, we'll call in the first responders and I'll call the federal government and then we'll figure it out. You know, like just. That's the other thing. Beyond all the charisma and the horse race stuff that has characterized this race. Nothing exciting. Like big ideas are powerful. I mean, I know Bernie's on this episode, too. Like, there's. Steyer's trying to sort of be in that lane a little bit, but everyone else is just sort of like, Katie

[John Lovett]

Porter is a bitch.

[Peter Hamby]

We'll figure it out.

[John Lovett]

Well, this is where I press Katie Porter as well, because she's talking about this plan to exempt $100,000 from. Or people making up to $100,000 from the state income tax. And she has a way to pay for it. But. And fine, like, help people. California is very unaffordable. But, like, the problems are so kind of upriver from that. Like, we're, we're like the reason California is unaffordable when it has, like the income tax rate hasn't gone up with. What's gone up is the cost of housing. What's gone up is the, Is the cost of living in our state. What's gone up is. And what's gone down is the availability of jobs for. In Hollywood and other industries. And, and, you know, I talked to

[Peter Hamby]

housing, by the way, the housing conversation, at least in the CBS debate I watched was infuriating. I mean, Matt Mahan at least was like, here's what I did in San Jose. I want to build this many units. Tom Stier said the same thing. To build housing. But like, people just say, like, via Ragosa, we need to build more housing. No shit.

[John Lovett]

Yeah.

[Peter Hamby]

Like, I don't know. There's just not. There just weren't a lot of compelling ideas there.

[John Lovett]

Yeah, it's. It's been pretty frustrating. But I had a good conversation with Porter. I hope we get to talk to Becerra. And so I think I'm going to talk to Stier next week. So we're going to talk to all those candidates. Last question. Why, hey, why'd they call it Puck? Is it after the Midsummer Night's dream?

[Peter Hamby]

Yeah. Yeah.

[John Lovett]

So it's a puckish. It's a puckish organization.

[Peter Hamby]

Mischievous literary inspiration. But I think John Kelly, who created Puck, very literate man and thought Puck would be an inspiration because we like to be a little mischievous, I guess, in what we do.

[John Lovett]

Yeah, you're puckish.

[Peter Hamby]

Please subscribe. Thank you.

[John Lovett]

You, as a person, I would have called.

[Peter Hamby]

How would you describe puckish the adjective. How would you define that?

[John Lovett]

A pucket. Mischievous is a very good word for it. I would say mischievous with a joyful quality.

[Peter Hamby]

Aw.

[John Lovett]

Is what I would say.

[Peter Hamby]

I like that. My wife liked that. Thanks, John.

[John Lovett]

You're in, you know, a little stinker, you know, kind of energy. Peter Hamby, thank you so much. Good to talk to you.

[Peter Hamby]

Good to see you man.

[John Lovett]

And that's our show. Thank you to Senator Sanders. Thank you to Peter Hamby. We will see you with a new episode on Tuesday.

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[Peter Hamby]

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to subscribe on Supercast, Substack, YouTube or Apple Podcasts. Also, please consider leaving us a review that helps boost this episode and everything we do here at Crooked Pod Save America is a crooked Media production. Our producer is Saul Rubin. Our associate producer is Farah Safari. Austin Fisher is our senior producer. Reed Churlin is a our executive editor. Adrian Hill is our head of news and politics. Jordan Kanter is our Sound engineer with audio support from Kyle Seglin and Charlotte Landis.

[Peter Hamby]

Matt de Groat is our Head of production.

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[Peter Hamby]

Out here, if you're doing nothing, you're doing everything right.

[John Lovett]

Though on a cruise with Norwegian, even

[Peter Hamby]

if you're doing nothing, you're still basking in the warm sun, enjoying the peaceful ocean waves.

[John Lovett]

You're breathing. Don't forget about breathing. Definitely need to be breathing. So you get to do nothing. Alright, everything. But you still need to be breathing.

[Peter Hamby]

It's like really important experience.

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The difference with cruises to Alaska, the Caribbean and Europe.

[John Lovett]

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[Senator Bernie Sanders]

We've planned for the plot twists so

[John Lovett]

support is always available because a great trip starts with peace of mind.