Trump Admits He's for He/Him, Not You

Summary

Pod Save America – Episode Summary

Episode: Trump Admits He's for He/Him, Not You
Date: May 15, 2026
Hosts: Jon Favreau, Dan Pfeiffer, (with appearances by Jon Lovett & others)

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Episode Overview

This episode grapples with the fallout from Donald Trump's headline-making admission in China that he doesn't think about "Americans' financial situation, not even a little bit." Jon Favreau and Dan Pfeiffer dissect why the gaffe is so damaging, analyze the looming possibility of Trump personally profiting through a Justice Department lawsuit settlement, and touch on Democratic responses to Republican gerrymandering, the DNC's failure to release a promised 2024 "autopsy," and the bizarre spectacle of a new 22-foot golden statue of Trump. They weave in strategy for Democrats heading into the 2026 midterms while poking fun at the perpetual state of political absurdity.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Trump’s Damaging ‘Not For You’ Gaffe

[03:59–08:01]

• Trump, while in China, referred to Chinese restaurants in America outnumbering fast food chains, then stumbled into a disastrous admission: “Not even a little bit. I don’t think about American financial situation. I don’t think about anybody.”

  • Dan Pfeiffer [05:57]: “From a political perspective, this is the worst thing he has said by far, hands down. Not even close."
  • Favreau & Pfeiffer discuss how this “accidental truth-telling” confirms voters’ worst suspicions about Trump’s priorities—not just gaffes, but perceived indifference.

• Republican officials’ inability to explain away Trump’s statement is lampooned:

  • Favreau [09:43]: “When the President said he doesn’t think about Americans’ financial situation, what he actually meant was that he cares about America’s financial situation.”
  • They note the outdated press chase for accountability, arguing the media and Democratic ad makers instead must exploit Trump’s words directly.

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2. Trump’s Lawsuit and Brazen Self-Dealing

[15:41–20:30, breaking at 29:00]

• Trump may settle a $10 billion lawsuit against the IRS via his own Justice Department—potentially giving himself or his affiliated entities up to $1.7 billion from taxpayer funds.

  • Favreau [18:26]:
    “It’s just like he’s stealing from us…our taxes go in Donald Trump’s pocket. He is a crook. That’s it.”
  • Pfeiffer [17:44]:
    “This is a lawsuit where Donald Trump sued Donald Trump, and now Donald Trump is going to settle with Donald Trump to give Donald Trump money. Our money.”

• The settlement may take the form of a “weaponization fund” purportedly to aid those targeted by government, but would still funnel Treasury dollars into Trump-related hands.

  • Pfeiffer [29:43]: “So it’s a slush fund for Trump, potentially his family and his friends.”

• The hosts stress that this kind of corruption, due to both its scale and clarity, is particularly potent for Democrats to message around, contrasting it with general cynicism over “corruption” in politics.

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3. Democratic Strategy: Corruption, Reform, and Gerrymandering

[20:25–43:19]

On Framing Corruption

• Pfeiffer [21:57]:
  • Democrats shouldn’t treat corruption as courtroom evidence but as an explanation for why things feel broken for ordinary people—linking it to high costs, unfairness, and the feeling that the system is rigged for the rich.
  • A party-wide reform agenda is unlikely to be believed, but clear, bold ideas and visible fights—like banning stock trades for Congress—are essential both as policy and proof.

On Gerrymandering and Congressional Maps

• Ongoing Supreme Court decisions (and Republican aggression) put Democrats in “perpetual political warfare” over congressional maps.

• Pfeiffer [35:59]:
  “We are now in a state of perpetual political warfare. The maps will be redrawn every cycle… We have to use every single lever of power we have.”

• Kamala Harris’s push for a “no bad ideas brainstorm” (34:26) is lauded for moving expansion of the Supreme Court, D.C. statehood, and multi-member districts into mainstream conversation.

• Favreau & Pfeiffer emphasize that only national reforms (via federal legislation, and thus Senate wins in places like Texas and Alaska) will break this endless cycle.

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4. Republican Strategy for the Midterms (The Three W’s: ‘Woke, Weak, Way Too Liberal’)

[49:19–57:13]

• Trump’s campaign strategist, James Blair, plans to brand Democrats as “woke, weak, and way too liberal.”
  • Pfeiffer [53:55]: “This is an attack on generic Democrats. Don’t be a generic Democrat … Run against the Democratic establishment, show you’re a fighter for something, and go on offense.”
  • The strategy may spark GOP turnout but, Pfeiffer notes, polling now shows Trump and the GOP as more extreme or “weak,” especially among independents.

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5. DNC ‘Autopsy’ Scandal and Party Credibility

[57:13–75:10]

• The DNC promised but failed to deliver a post-2024 campaign “autopsy.” Rob Flaherty—former senior Biden staff—published his own, revealing the DNC’s report never existed.

  • Flaherty’s summary [58:08]: “No autopsy was released because there is no actual autopsy. The members of the autopsy team were in over their heads…”

• Favreau and Pfeiffer argue the DNC’s evasion typifies an establishment credibility crisis.

  • Favreau [66:21]: “Don’t treat voters like they're stupid. People know when you’re lying to them. Everyone knew that Ken Martin wasn’t telling the truth… It was pretty obvious.”

• They delve into lessons for future campaigns:

  • Shift resources from TV to digital, treating digital not as a department but as the core of campaign communication.
  • Candidates themselves must define—and communicate—why they’re running; authenticity and a meaningful narrative “brand” trumps generic polling-based messaging.

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6. Memorable Moments

• Golden Trump Statue
  • A 22-foot golden statue of Trump was unveiled at his golf club, blessed by his spiritual advisor, and dismissed as “not a golden calf.”
  • Dan Pfeiffer [76:46]: “Just so fucking weird. It's so weird. I want every person in America to see this.”
  • Favreau details the absurdity, crypto grifters’ involvement, and ties the statue in with Trump’s pattern of self-obsession.

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Notable Quotes & Timestamps

• Trump’s Gaffe:

  “Not even a little bit. I don’t think about American financial situation. I don’t think about anybody.”
  – Donald Trump (as quoted), [04:54]

• Pfeiffer on Political Impact:

  “This is the worst thing he has said by far, hands down. Not even close.”
  – Dan Pfeiffer, [05:57]

• On Settling Trump’s Suit:

  “He is stealing from us… He is a crook. That’s it.”
  – Jon Favreau, [18:26] “This is a lawsuit where Donald Trump sued Donald Trump, and now Donald Trump is going to settle with Donald Trump to give Donald Trump money. Our money.”
  – Dan Pfeiffer, [17:44]

• On Democrats & Corruption Narrative:

  “The way to think about corruption is … as an explanation for why everything sucks…”
  – Dan Pfeiffer, [21:57]

• On Democratic Reform Focus:

  “You need a few very big, ambitious, haven’t-heard-before, reform ideas that people can grab onto…”
  – Jon Favreau, [24:26]

• On Media & Accountability:

  “That doesn’t…That’s not how the world works anymore.”
  – Dan Pfeiffer, [10:57]

• Golden Statue:

  “It’s big in gold. About all I got. It’s his place. He can do whatever he wants.”
  – PGA pro via Palm Beach Post, [76:39] “Just so fucking weird… I want every person in America to see this.”
  – Dan Pfeiffer, [76:46]

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Timestamps for Major Segments

• [03:59] – Trump’s visit to China, "Doesn’t think about Americans’ financial situation" gaffe analysis
• [15:41] – Trump’s IRS lawsuit & self-enrichment scandal
• [20:25] – Corruption as campaign message; reform agenda discussion
• [33:02] – Republican gerrymandering update; Kamala’s “no bad ideas” brainstorm
• [49:19] – GOP’s “Woke, Weak, Way Too Liberal” strategy & Democratic response
• [57:13] – DNC autopsy debacle and credibility crisis
• [73:15] – Lessons for candidates in new digital media landscape
• [76:11] – Golden Trump statue at Mar-a-Lago

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In Summary

This episode is a brisk, candid rundown of the latest in 2026’s political battles, with the hosts wielding equal parts outrage, humor, and strategy lessons. It’s a must-listen (or must-read) for anyone seeking sharp, on-the-ground analysis of Trump’s vulnerabilities, the Democratic Party’s challenges, and the current media and campaign environment. The co-hosts’ palpable exasperation with political theater—be it Trump’s corruption or the DNC’s obfuscation—is as central to the episode as their practical advice for the road ahead.

Transcript

[Jon Favreau]

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[Adrian]

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[Jon Favreau]

Welcome to Pod Save America. I'm Jon Favreau.

[Dan Pfeiffer]

I'm Dan Pfeiffer.

[Jon Favreau]

On today's show, Donald Trump has fled to China after admitting he doesn't think about American's financial situation, not even a little bit. We'll talk about all the fallout from that fun little gaffe and the possibility that Trump may personally pocket billions in taxpayer dollars because of a lawsuit he filed that his own Justice Department is on the verge of settling. We'll also talk about the Democrats latest plan to fight the Republican gerrymander spree. More updates on the DNC and its Phantom 2024 autopsy. And of course, why the new 22 foot golden statue of Donald Trump at his golf Club, blessed by his spiritual advisor, is definitely not a golden calf. Before we get into any of that, if you're a friend of the prod subscriber, which if you aren't, you should be, you can now buy tickets for this year's Crooked Con special presale just for subscribers. So go get your ticket now. If you're not a subscriber, which must be because you hate pro democracy media and love podcast ads, you can buy Crooked Con tickets starting next week on May 19th. Tuesday, May 19th. Either way, it's gonna be a big fun party after the midterms November 5th through the 7th. I am sticking with big fun party Dan.

[Dan Pfeiffer]

Okay, look, you won.

[Jon Favreau]

Go to crookedcon.com for more details, including how to become a friends of the Pod subscriber, in which you again get ad free episodes of all your favorite crooked pods. And you get special subscriber only pods like Polar Coaster with Dan Pfeiffer, who I'm hosting with today. And you also get access to all of our excellent substack newsletters and all kinds of other cool stuff. So go check it out, become a subscriber and buy your CrookedCon tickets. CrookedCon.com all right, the president is in China, glazing Xi Jinping. He called the communist dictator a quote, great leader while dropping some knowledge on his Chinese hosts.

[Donald Trump]

Chinese restaurants in America today outnumber the five largest fast food chains in the United States all combined. That's a pretty big statement.

[Jon Favreau]

Pretty, pretty big statement. Pretty big statement. Glad he, glad he gave them that one. The Beijing leg of Trump's affordability tour puts him out of the country at a moment when the president has never been less popular after starting a war he can't seem to end that's led to inflation he doesn't seem to care about, which for some reason he won't stop telling us. President, you promised to bring inflation down. It's now at its highest level in three years. Are your policies not working?

[Donald Trump]

What's happening working incredibly. We have a ballroom that's under budget. We're right now on budget. Under budget and ahead of schedule. I doubled the size of it, you dumb person.

[Jon Favreau]

Double the size when you're negotiating with Iran.

[Dan Pfeiffer]

Mr. President, to what extent are American financial situations motivating you to make a deal?

[Donald Trump]

Not even a little bit. I don't think about American financial situation. I don't think about anybody.

[Jon Favreau]

The best, the best part of that is, like, it would have been bad enough if he had just stuck with not at all. Because then, like, that's still bad. But then you would have had to, like, you know, make sure you heard the reporter's question. But then he, like, does the quote, as if it was like, here's the line that if you say it will be a major gaffe. And he's like, I will do the whole line. I will just say it. I do not think about American's financial situation. I don't think about anybody.

[Dan Pfeiffer]

The only thing that would have been worse if he'd asked him to turn the helicopter engines off first so he could say it. So the audio.

[Jon Favreau]

Okay, folks, I'm gonna do one more take. Gonna say it a little louder. And two camera just so it looks better.

[Dan Pfeiffer]

Let me hold this big box of gold right now.

[Jon Favreau]

Can you get the. Can you get the unfinished ballroom in the background? In fairness, the one group of Americans whose financial situation Trump keeps improving are Democratic ad makers. In the pantheon of gaffes, where do you rank this one?

[Dan Pfeiffer]

Donald Trump has had many offensive and morally odious things over the years, but from a political perspective, this is the worst thing he has said by far, hands down. Not even close.

[Jon Favreau]

Do we think so? I mean, oh, God, I can't remember. It's been 10 years. But yeah, it's up there for sure.

[Dan Pfeiffer]

It absolutely has to be. And here's why. Because a lot of Trump's like, the terrible things he says, like, Nazis are fine people. I trust the Russian intel, trust Russia over our own intelligence agencies. All of those things which are really, really bad things for a president to say on every level are afield from the thing Americans care most about. So right here he is doing the worst kind of gaffes are when you say the truth out loud. And that's what this is. Because what he said was the exact thing that the people who voted for Trump who have grown disillusioned with him and are thinking of voting for Democrats, fear most that he does not give a shit about them. Yeah, it is like he said the whole thing. And you just. That is our message. Like somewhere on a whiteboard in a Democratic super pac is Trump does not care about American people's financial situations. And then he said it. He said our message on camera. That's bad.

[Jon Favreau]

Remember, Kamala's for they them. Trump's for you. I guess. Trump is not for you.

[Dan Pfeiffer]

No, Trump is not for you.

[Jon Favreau]

This is not for you. Yeah.

[Dan Pfeiffer]

This is like when Kamala Harris the two quotes, which we'll get to this later. But when Kamala Harris said that Biden nomics were working and when she had no ways in which she would separate herself from Joe Biden. Similar. Right. When you make a gaffe that fits with people's greatest fear about you, those are the gaffes that hurt the most.

[Jon Favreau]

I was thinking whether this was even the worst gaffe within the context of all of the terrible, politically stupid gaffes he's made within the context of the just affordability. Just in that category because it was like affordability is a hoax.

[Dan Pfeiffer]

It's bullshit.

[Jon Favreau]

It's bullshit. Everything's fine. People are okay. If it could be worse, gas prices, I mean, there's just so many of them. I do think this nicely encapsulates that.

[Dan Pfeiffer]

Yes.

[Jon Favreau]

Aside from any one policy or him being out of touch with how people are feeling, he actually just doesn't think about it.

[Dan Pfeiffer]

Does not care. Could not care less. Back to the ballroom.

[Jon Favreau]

This story is like the advisors are saying. Well, he was talking about, he was talking about this in the context of Iran having a nuclear weapon. And what he was saying is that he doesn't think about American's financial situation in a way that would stop him from doing what he needs to do to stop Iran from getting a nuclear weapon. Which is also funny because he hasn't done that either.

[Dan Pfeiffer]

That's right. First of all, they still have the uranium dust and our gas prices are really high.

[Jon Favreau]

Zero progress. Zero progress since this war. The latest war began in February of 28. Whatever he bombed over last summer is one thing, but like nothing on the nuclear dust since, since this war started. So hasn't figured that out. Doesn't think of American's financial situation. It has been funny to watch Republicans respond to this one, which so many of them have been asked to do, including the Vice President and the speaker of the House and random members of Congress. Let's listen.

[Adrian]

Yesterday the President was asked about whether Americans financial concerns were motivating him to make a deal with Iran.

[Dan Pfeiffer]

His response was, I don't think about Americans financial situations.

[Adrian]

Do you think that's the right message?

[Jon Favreau]

Do you think the President should be

[Adrian]

considering the financial tool?

[Dan Pfeiffer]

I don't know the context in which

[Donald Trump]

he made that comment, but I can

[Jon Favreau]

tell you the President thinks about Americans financial situations. I talk to him on average twice a day, sometimes three or four times a day.

[Dan Pfeiffer]

If I could just kind of give a little clarity to what I think President Trump was saying is, look, he does care about the American people. He does care about the price of the pump.

[Jon Favreau]

Well, I don't think the President said that. I think that's a misrepresentation of what the President said. So good. So good. Let me just clarify. Let me just clarify. When the President said he doesn't think about American's financial situation, what he actually meant was that he cares about America's financial situation.

[Dan Pfeiffer]

It's like, look, he's an older gentleman. He doesn't get a lot of sleep. He gets confused sometimes.

[Jon Favreau]

I like that Mike Johnson went to. I mean, I talked to him two, three times a day. It's like, what does that have to do with him caring about American's financial situation? I also enjoyed that the question was, do you think that's a good message?

[Dan Pfeiffer]

I don't know. The context look like no one has a narrower media diet than Mike Johnson.

[Jon Favreau]

I feel like every Democratic candidate on the ballot in 2026 should make their Republican opponent answer for this. Right?

[Dan Pfeiffer]

It feels like a leading question, John.

[Jon Favreau]

I'm just saying, like, why I haven't. I'm trying to figure out, like, why I haven't seen more of that yet. I mean, I guess you can only really do that in a. I guess the place to do that is in a debate, because if you do some video where you're like, I call on my opponent to, you know, no one's gonna actually do that. That's not gonna get you very far. But I do think it'd be a good debate moment.

[Dan Pfeiffer]

So I think the way we generally think about this, the way that question is framed, is, like, based in this other world of politics that you and I came up in, where these Republicans are out there on the campaign trail. They're being trailed by a pack of experienced local reporters who are waving recorders and notepads at them, demanding answers.

[Jon Favreau]

Sort of like, Jeff Bezos took all their jobs. So that's not.

[Dan Pfeiffer]

Yeah, well, it's. That doesn't. That's not how the world works anymore.

[Jon Favreau]

Right?

[Dan Pfeiffer]

Yeah. And so that's not like, I would like a world. Like, I want every Republican walking down the halls of Congress to be swarmed by the staff of Punchbowl News and demand it. They can't leave the Senate subway until they answer this question. Like, I would like that. That is good karmic justice, and people should use it in debates. The better thing to do here in this media environment is you take the Trump clip, you mix it with a. You then follow it up with a bunch of policies that this Republican member supported or is fine with or has done, or they themselves said that. That illustrate this larger point that Trump and his Republican flunkies do not give a shit. About your financial situation. They focus on all these other things. And I think that's sort of the way it happens now. Like in a campaign. I just like. You hear this all the time. And I think about this. I always know, like, why is no one forcing these candidates to ask about it? Because there is no one to force them to do it anymore.

[Jon Favreau]

Right.

[Dan Pfeiffer]

There's maybe one reporter trailing them in some of these places.

[Jon Favreau]

You know, I watched the. I don't know if you've watched any of these. This is sort of off topic, but I watched the last California gubernatorial debate. Seems like there's a couple opportunities.

[Dan Pfeiffer]

The CNN one or the Buffy Wicks one?

[Jon Favreau]

Neither. The. The local NBC affiliate one. That came after the LA mayoral debate.

[Dan Pfeiffer]

Oh, okay. Yeah, I watched the CNN one and I watched the Buffy one.

[Jon Favreau]

Yeah.

[Dan Pfeiffer]

None of the Buffy Wicks. Buffy Wicks sponsored a housing debate.

[Jon Favreau]

I know that, Ezra.

[Dan Pfeiffer]

For those who are wondering, I will say that Buffy Wicks is an assembly member in California and a friend of ours.

[Jon Favreau]

Yeah. No, I will say that neither the LA mayoral debate or the California gubernatorial debate that I watched was very inspiring. Yeah.

[Dan Pfeiffer]

If you've done. If you've done local races, the. And it's been a long time since I've done that. But like, these debates are never. They're not presidential debates.

[Jon Favreau]

No, they're really not. They're really not.

[Dan Pfeiffer]

It's not a hard follow up.

[Jon Favreau]

There's not a lot of rules, sort of. But anyway, anyway, for other people running for Congress, I do think that could be a good moment. But you're right, I think you throw it in an ad. I think you could be creative. Whatever. We could talk about that forever.

[Adrian]

Foreign

[John Lovett]

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[Jon Favreau]

Wow.

[John Lovett]

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[Jon Favreau]

They really know their audience. They really do.

[John Lovett]

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[Jon Favreau]

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[Dan Pfeiffer]

Yeah.

[Jon Favreau]

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[John Lovett]

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[Jon Favreau]

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Try mill risk free for 90 days and get 75 [e-mail] crooked and use code crooked. That's 75 [e-mail] crooked and use code crooked. The president may not be thinking about American's financial situation, but he's always thinking about his own. And he continues to use the presidency to make himself richer in cartoonishly corrupt ways. Remember the $10 billion lawsuit Donald Trump filed against the IRS over his tax returns leaking? Well, the New York Times reports that Trump's Justice Department might settle the lawsuit any day now. And that, quote, a settlement payment even a fraction of the size of Mr. Trump's requested $10 billion could be much larger than his other attempts at private gain, potentially doubling his net worth with our tax dollars. I know a lot of these corruption stories are a bit complicated, but this would just be Trump literally just taking the tax dollars we send the government and putting them directly into his pocket. First of all, before we get into, like, the political implications of this, do you think they'll actually do something so brazenly stupid as this, even by Trump standards?

[Dan Pfeiffer]

Yeah, I think they might. And I think they'll justify it by saying, look, it's not. We didn't do it for 10 billion. We did it for 1 billion or 2 billion.

[Jon Favreau]

You think? So You'll. Yeah. The other thing that they kind of floated in the story, and I couldn't. I couldn't tell if this was, you know, some reporting that didn't. They couldn't bear out yet, which was there's a possibility they might just say, no, no financial award goes to Trump from Trump's Justice Department, but that somehow he gets protected from ever being audited again, which seems. Which is also incredibly corrupt, of course.

[Dan Pfeiffer]

Yes.

[Jon Favreau]

But I do think any kind of dollar amount is fucking nuts, man.

[Adrian]

It.

[Dan Pfeiffer]

I mean, it would have to be. Let's say it's a. Let's say it's $1 million, right? Let's say it's.

[Jon Favreau]

Let's say they're still stealing.

[Dan Pfeiffer]

This is a lawsuit where Donald Trump sued Donald Trump, and now Donald Trump is going to settle with Donald Trump to give Donald Trump money. Our money.

[Jon Favreau]

Our money.

[Dan Pfeiffer]

He's basically just backing up a truck to the Treasury Department and taking our money and giving it to himself. And he's gonna say he's giving it to charity. That's what he said when he was pushed on this in an NBC interview earlier this year. Donald Trump's been lying about giving money to charity his whole life. This would be the greatest example of presidential corruption in American history by a factor of 1000. It's just stealing money.

[Jon Favreau]

I was going to say the easiest to explain. Don't fucking get out your message box on this one, Dan.

[Dan Pfeiffer]

No, don't worry. I'll be message boxing.

[Jon Favreau]

Let me, let me tell you, it's just like he's stealing from us. You go to work, you get a paycheck. They take taxes out of the paycheck. It goes to the government. Now those taxes go in Donald Trump's pocket. He's a thief. He is. He is stealing from us. $10 billion. He is a crook. That's it.

[Dan Pfeiffer]

I mean, it's wild, really.

[Jon Favreau]

It's also, it's like a lawsuit that, I mean, not to get into the details here, but now that we've done our top line message, like an IRS contractor fucking leaked all these tax returns of a whole bunch of wealthy people, including Donald Trump, to ProPublica. Apparently, the guy went to jail for five years over this. And others who had their tax returns leaked sued, none of them got any damages. Ken Griffin, the billionaire, he was one of them. He got like a public apology from the irs. There's all kinds of problems with the lawsuits. It's for way too much money. First of all, he doesn't seem to have filed it at the right time. And so there's only one party of the lawsuit.

[Dan Pfeiffer]

Well, I was gonna say that's the

[Jon Favreau]

big thing, but no, I think the big thing is it's also clear that if it was Donald Trump suing Joe Biden's federal government or some other president, this lawsuit, he would never get anything from this because it's a fucking phony lawsuit. And the only reason he would win the lawsuit is because he decides the lawsuit because he is the Justice Department, because the Justice Department isn't independent. And so he tells them, hey, settle this lawsuit that I filed against us, and I'm gonna pocket the cash or I'm gonna pretend that I give it to charity. It is unfucking believable. I can't wait. I hope he does it.

[Dan Pfeiffer]

I hope it is worth $1 billion in taxpayer money.

[Jon Favreau]

For this, I'll write some kind of a check

[John Lovett]

myself.

[Jon Favreau]

Not for that much, but I would. I mean, this would be the greatest political gift. Now, this is the easiest one, but I know you have thoughts on, just in general, how Democrats should be talking about corruption over these next couple months leading into the midterms.

[Dan Pfeiffer]

Yeah. You know, way back in 2020, one of my arguments was that the way before we, before Biden was the nominee, when it was beginning to run For Trump in 2019, 2020, my argument was that Democrats should frame the argument against Trump around chaos and corruption. And you were in some of these meetings, pollsters would come to us and they would say corruption does not work. We've tested it. Voters do not buy the idea, or it's not. They don't buy the idea that Trump is corrupt, is that it does not move them. It's not new information to them. They, they are willing to accept a baseline of corruption from Trump. It's kind of priced into their baseline. And they kind of think all politicians are corrupt. Flash forward to now, even, even as recently as, as early last year, when Trump was really doing a lot of all his crypto stuff, we heard the same thing from the same pollsters, that corruption was not a message that worked with swing voters. And I believe these pollsters, I believe their data. I just think they, they are tactically correct and strategically wrong. And there's two things here. The first is corruption. This is a different backdrop. People may be okay with Trump dipping his beak when gas is under $2 a gallon and prices are low and the economy is going good. They feel very differently about it when gas is 450A gallon and the economy sucks. That's a very different. There's a very different backdrop to this. So that's 1, 2. I think how we use corruption is very important here because I think too often Democrats treat it as if we were in a court of law. Like, we are going to present this evidence. There is the Qatari jet, there is the theft of the $10 billion. Look at the crypto schemes. We've presented this evidence. Jury of my voter peers, please tell me whether you find the President corrupt. And if you find him corrupt, then we're gonna get rid of him. But that's not how it works. Right? The way to think about corruption is to understand that is to treat corruption as an explanation for why everything sucks. It is the keystone to explain why rich people are getting richer, politically connected people are getting pardons and gifts and access, and you're getting kicked off your health care, you're getting kicked off your food assistance, why nothing works, why corporations are getting richer, small businesses are hurting, things costing more. It is all because of corruption. It is a corrupt system. It is bigger than Trump. Trump is a part of that system. He is exploiting that system. And if we don't talk about corruption as a party, then what we are doing is we are implying to voters that we're okay with that system because they think we're part of it, too. Now, I think there's a lot Democrats have to do in terms of the positions we have, the policies we advocate for that show that we're willing to take on that system. But if you just refuse to acknowledge this giant elephant in the room, that people believe the system is corrupt, and it is corrupt because Donald Trump is showing us every single day, then you're just leaving so much money on the table, no pun intended.

[Jon Favreau]

How much do you think an actual reform agenda should be part of that?

[Dan Pfeiffer]

I don't think it is credible for the Democratic party running in 2026 to have a. This is our reform agenda. I don't think anyone's going to believe that. I think individual candidates should be running on it. Obviously, like, the biggest layup ever that we seem incapable of accomplishing is banning members of Congress from trading stocks. Like, truly one of the biggest mistakes of the Biden era was not getting that done when we had the majority, you know, dark money, you know, the aoc. And I think, I hate to say this, I think Ted Cruz have this bill that says that members of Congress can't become lobbyists when they leave. Like, I think individual people should have their own to show that they're taking on that system. I think it should be a big part. Like, I want our 2028 candidate to be seen as a reformer. Like, Ossoff is doing that in his stuff right now. But I don't think there's like, a Democratic Party agenda when we get in. If we take the House, one of the things we should do is pass a, a government ethics campaign finance reform bill. We know it's going nowhere, but we should show that we want to deliver on it.

[Jon Favreau]

I kind of think that. And I don't know if this is for. If we take the House and then just want to pass a bill that is sitting there ready for a Democratic president, or this is the candidates who run in 2028 who do this. But I think you need a few very big, ambitious, haven't heard before, reform ideas that people can grab onto, both because that's what it takes to get attention in this information environment. And the stock trading ban is great and obviously polls through the roof. We get that. But people have been talking about it for so long. When is it going to happen? I think the next thing that's going to get attention is someone actually fucking passing the stock trading ban. But how would you stop the corruption? We just talked about Donald Trump stealing from the treasury because he controls the Justice Department. Like, we're going to have to figure out a way. Again, this is another conversation. But the idea that the next Democratic president is just going to be like, well, the Justice Department is independent again and that's going to prevent the next Trump from doing what he's done with the Justice Department. Seems a bit fanciful to me. I'm talking like histor like we have gone through in these last this term especially like historic levels of corruption we have never seen in the United States of America. And so it seems like you'll need reform that has also will be reform for the history books that we've never seen in the United States of America too. And I worry that you'll get this like fucking mealy mouth, like you know, just bit by bit reform agenda that is just recycled from Democratic campaigns passed.

[Dan Pfeiffer]

I think there's sort of two things that are at play here that sometimes get conflated. 1 and I would say they are related too. One is reforming campaign finance law, lobbying, just like government ethics. Right. Like akin to a version of what Obama ran on in 08 and when Democrats actually passed in 2003. Seven, I think or six or seven when we passed it. And then there is like what do we do with the fact that we. That our system is so filled with Swiss cheese that a bad person can exploit it with no consequences? Like how do you reign that in? What can you do to rein in presidential power? Like will a Democratic president come in and be willing to rein in their own power in ways that would put them under more. And it's hard because the Supreme Court immunity decision makes it hard. Like you say, like what is the. Like you could put in place a bunch of different disclosure laws or conflict of interest laws that apply to the president. You make the Hatch act apply to the president doesn't currently do it. There are things like that you could do, but what do you do? What are the teeth? Right. If the president just says fuck you, what actually can you do in a world in which the impeachment system does not work? When I wrote my book on trumping America in 2020, I guess it came out 2020. Yeah. Right before the pandemic and like one week before the pandemic and one of the like this is a big spend a lot of time working on this. And why I thought both politically for the sake of the party and the sake of the country, the next Democratic president should do this. The next Democratic president did not do this. But one of the things was repealing the OLC memo. The Office of Legal Counsel member that said that the president could not be indicted. Now the Supreme Court has. Because that. That's one of the. Then the Supreme Court just made that memo case law now. So you can't do that. But we do need to think. Like, this should be a big part of Project 2029 or whatever is thinking about how we. How we what? Like, what lessons can we learn from all the bad shit Trump did and how can we stop future presidents? Because the system never anticipated someone as craven and corrupt as Trump.

[Jon Favreau]

Yeah, the. The easy way to say it and not the messagey way to say it, but it's like you got to. All the norms gotta become laws. Codify the norms.

[Dan Pfeiffer]

But how do you codify the norms?

[Jon Favreau]

Then there's the. That's the.

[Dan Pfeiffer]

That's the question. Like, you can make the people around him, like, there are all these things that you would want to do that are very hard constitutionally.

[Jon Favreau]

What you have to do is, is, I think, write into law, because the loophole that the Supreme Court decision gives you is anything that is clearly not an official act, he can be prosecuted for. And so you would have to make sure that certain things you have to put into law, that certain things that the President does are not official, are obviously not official acts in the legislation. I think that's.

[John Lovett]

I'm.

[Jon Favreau]

I'm not a lawyer, obviously.

[Dan Pfeiffer]

It's good enough for me.

[Jon Favreau]

It feels like by then, some smart lawyers and maybe Clyde can help us figure this out.

[Dan Pfeiffer]

Anthropic should really start paying for this.

[Jon Favreau]

All right, Dan, we're going to. We're going to move on, but there's some breaking news on this IRS thing right from.

[Dan Pfeiffer]

You drop the case.

[Jon Favreau]

Well, so ABC News is reporting that Trump is poised to settle the case. And instead of the $10 billion, it's gonna be $1.7 billion that he still gets. But he's saying it's going to turn into a $1.7 billion weaponization fund so that people, I guess, can sue people who've weaponized the government against Trump allies. And I'm sure there'll be strict oversight over such a fund. That, of course, does go to Donald Trump, and that's what'll happen there.

[Dan Pfeiffer]

So it's a slush fund for Trump, potentially his family and his friends.

[Jon Favreau]

Yeah, that is about right. That is about right.

[Dan Pfeiffer]

Seems like a good use of taxpayer dollars.

[Jon Favreau]

The compensation fund is believed to be the main condition for Trump to drop a series of legal blah, blah, blah. The settlement terms are expected to prohibit Trump from directly receiving payments related to those claims. However, entities associated with Trump are not explicitly barred from filing additional claims, sources said.

[Dan Pfeiffer]

Oh, like his family and his business, who also had their tax releases.

[Jon Favreau]

The proposed fund released, which would face significant legal hurdles, would draw money from the Treasury Department's Judgment Fund. $1.7 billion will be coming out of the treasury in this scenario. Going into some slush fund that Donald Trump controls is what you need to know about this. So it is some combination of what

[Dan Pfeiffer]

we thought it might be and still bad.

[Jon Favreau]

Yeah. Yeah, I'd say it's still bad. Still a lot of money. It's a lot of money. $1.7 billion. Just taking it out of the Treasury.

[John Lovett]

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[Jon Favreau]

So despite all this, Republicans are still projecting confidence about the midterms, which of course could be bullshit. Of course they'd project confidence. But the one thing they can legitimately point to is the success they're having gerrymandering the maps courtesy of again, the Supreme Court. Some new developments there. South Carolina now looks like it will redistrict even though a handful of Republicans joined Democrats to vote down the idea earlier this week. The governor's going to call a special session that will apparently require only a simple majority. So that's not good news. Louisiana advanced its plan too, but they're getting rid of one Democratic district, not two. So slight good news there. On the Democratic side, Maryland may now move to redistrict the cycle. After all, the Senate president there who would oppose the idea is now in talks about it with Governor Wes Moore. So fingers crossed there. Mississippi and Georgia will both redraw their maps, but not till 2028. So that's temporary. Good news would be Speaker Hakeem Jeffries has announced a no more Mr. Nice Guy approach, pushing every blue state to redistrict by 2028 and promising to shame any Democrat who resists. And he also is sharpening the rhetoric on Republicans. He promised this week to, quote, crush their souls. Okay, then there's Kamala Harris, who popped up on an organizing call about redistricting with this advice.

[Adrian]

I think that we need an expanded playbook. This is a moment where there are no bad ideas. No bad idea Brainstorm is what I'd like to call it. We talk about what we need to do and think about doing around the Electoral College. We talk about the idea of Supreme Court reform, which includes expanding the Supreme Court. We invite a conversation about multi members districts. Let's talk about statehood for Puerto Rico and D.C. we've got to neutralize these red states from cheating, including blue states, expanding their maps.

[Jon Favreau]

So that was Kamala Harris zooming in from I don't know where. Let's have a no bad ideas brainstorm, Dan.

[Dan Pfeiffer]

Okay, I haven't been a part of many of them. It's not possible. There are bad ideas in a brainstorm. I've heard many of them.

[Jon Favreau]

There are many, many. Sometimes they leave the brainstorm and then we're saddled.

[Dan Pfeiffer]

In fact, saying that just usually elicits more bad ideas. People should have a little bit of fear of what they suggest in a meeting. What is.

[Jon Favreau]

Anyway, talk to Kamala Harris's team about the backdrop. Anyway, she's.

[Dan Pfeiffer]

This was not a media event she was zooming into.

[Jon Favreau]

Right.

[Dan Pfeiffer]

I think it was a merge, which is a organization that recruits and trans women candidates, I believe.

[Jon Favreau]

Good. She's out there chatting. We like it. What do you make of both the Democratic counterattack plan in the short term and then some of the longer term stuff that Kamala was talking about there?

[Dan Pfeiffer]

We have to recognize that we are now, because of the Supreme Court, we are now in a state of perpetual political warfare. The maps will be redrawn every cycle and at every time when there's a change in power. So if we have a trifecta in Oregon now and we redraw the maps, Republicans get a trifecta. Two years, four years, six years later, they'll redraw the maps again. And we're just going to live like this. And it's going to be that way up until the moment Congress passes a ban on partisan gerrymandering. And so we have to approach this fight with the attitude that I think Haskeem Jarvis is bringing to, which is we need a maximal approach. We have to use every single lever of power we have. If there's an opportunity to draw more Democratic districts in one of these blue states, we have to do it. If we have to repeal or find clever legal workarounds for anti gerrymandering laws and amendments, then we must do that. Because as we can already see, Republicans are wasting no time. They're leaving no stone unturned to find extra seats. And we hate your. I hate gerrymandering. You hate gerrymandering. Democrats hate gerrymandering. This sucks. Like, so the, you know, you guys joked about the. Or you discussed and joked a little bit about the. The plan in Virginia to retire all the justices and put new ones in.

[Jon Favreau]

Yeah.

[Dan Pfeiffer]

And that does seem extreme. And it was, I think, for a variety of reasons, logistically unworkable this time.

[Jon Favreau]

Honestly, for it reasons, apparently, yes.

[Dan Pfeiffer]

But even I. Yes, it's confusing. But either that sort of idea, I hate to say this, has to be on the table. That idea is no dumber or worse than just packing the Supreme Court ads. They've done in Florida and Utah and other places.

[Jon Favreau]

Or like throwing out votes in an election that had already happened in Louisiana.

[Dan Pfeiffer]

Yeah, yeah. It's like, we just. I don't want to do those things, but we have to be. We have to think like that because we are. We're now in a total war for democracy. The Republicans are trying to. They are just. They're just eliminating black districts across the country. You know, when this is all said and done, 30% of the black caucus could have their district. They didn't lose election. Their districts would be written out of existence because the Supreme Court says that racial gerrymandering was okay. And we have to have a very aggressive attitude about it. So that's the short term. Over the long term, this gets into the conversation we just had about how you reign in political power from corruption, from Trump is we do need to think about how, when we have power, how to use that power to protect democracy and fight fascism. And the way to do that is you have to make the country more democratic. That means getting rid of the filibuster. That means giving D.C. statehood. It means giving Puerto Rico the opportunity for statehood. Shit. If the people of Venezuela want to join America, given Trump's approval ratings right there, we'll take them, too. Right?

[Jon Favreau]

Cool.

[Dan Pfeiffer]

Court reform, as Kamala Harris mentioned, including expansion or certainly term limits would be very helpful. And there are creative ways that I think you can get around some of the constitutional language on term limits. But all these things should be on the table because Republicans are exploiting the loopholes in our system, and they're doing it ruthlessly and relentlessly, and we have to find ways to. And the system cannot work. The whole thing falls apart if the popular will of the people is denied because of a handful of justices who were put on the court by Donald Trump, a guy who only won the popular vote once over the course of. There's still ruling this way decades later. Like, we have to think really hard about how we reform our system and fix our democracy, and we should be willing to expend political capital to do that. Now, I don't think we should run on that message right now. That's not what I'm arguing. But I think when we're in power, we have to look at that very seriously.

[Jon Favreau]

Well, but I also think there's an expectation setting here, too, that I think is a challenge, because we just talked about. And you just talked about sort of gerrymandering or redrawing maps. If we have a trifecta in a blue state in like, the same breath as, you know, Supreme Court expansion. Right. And I think that we have to divide all of these reforms into reforms that we can do because we have power now in certain places, and reforms that we can only do if we amass power that is much more power than we have right now, which we

[Dan Pfeiffer]

can only do if we do the. We can only do the latter if we do the former.

[Jon Favreau]

Well, right. Well, that's also true. I mean, they go hand in hand. But, like, you know, you really can't blame any blue states right now for. Except for Maryland. This one guy in Maryland who's the state Senate president, I think.

[Dan Pfeiffer]

I think so. Yeah.

[Jon Favreau]

Yeah. Who has refused to do this. So as of right now in the calendar, like, he's the only one who's not doing what he could do with the power that they have in Maryland. Right. Then you sort of wonder, like, if you're looking back, it's too late now, but could Illinois have done redistricting this time around? If they jumped on it, maybe, like, did Pritzker make a mistake there? I don't know. I don't know why they didn't do it. But, like, you know, it's too late now. But, like, that was one state. Colorado, too. Like, did they miss the chance on this? I do think there's a series. And then New York, I think there was like more of a legal thing. But look, between now and 2028, you think I get New York, you got Illinois. I think you got Wisconsin maybe, which is going to be tougher because there's a Republican legislature there. But I don't know what Evers can do or the next.

[Dan Pfeiffer]

Pennsylvania is an option.

[Jon Favreau]

Pennsylvania is an option. Colorado will be an option.

[Dan Pfeiffer]

It's Maryland, Pennsylvania, Oregon, Colorado, New York, New Jersey, maybe. I think I may be missing one. There's a list of states that get you well over a dozen new seats.

[Jon Favreau]

Yeah. And so all that, all those states got to move for sure. And if they don't move, then they deserve all the pressure and all the criticism that they have coming to them for sure.

[Dan Pfeiffer]

This is hard because what happens sometimes when you redraw the districts is you take these compacted districts that off that are largely. They're urban districts, usually made up of a large segment of the black population. They have. And then you. You basically do the reverse of what Republicans do, which is then you divide that district in several ways and put some of those black voters into these. Into these, these swing districts and make them more Democratic. And you do. And this is One of the things that has, even New York has already said, there's already been reporting that New York may not take a maximalist approach to this in 2028 because there's fear that it will reduce New York's black representation in Congress. And so we're really gonna have to wrestle with that and figure that out. But ultimately it's not good for anyone if Republicans just call control Congress ad infinitum because we don't draw the districts

[Jon Favreau]

in the right way.

[Dan Pfeiffer]

Yeah, because, you know, you like, you guys were doing the math, the math on Tuesday's podcast. And you know, and I like, the political environment still suggests Democrats will take the majority. But this is a historically good political environment. We're not going to have that every time. And if we can only have the House when the president is at. The Republican president is at 38% and saying insane shit all the time while involved in a protracted war in the Middle East. We're not gonna have the House that often. And which means we're not gonna govern that often. It reduces the chance that a Democratic president has a governing trifecta. Actually get shit done.

[Jon Favreau]

Yeah, I mean, I was doing the math on this before we started and I looked at the Cook political and you tell me if my calculation's wrong on this. But if we, if Democrats win all the toss ups and all the lean Rs, which is pretty, we're pretty good. But like in a big blue, you know, that means we get 13 seats. We flip 13 seats. And for that I was saying that that's if Republicans then win all the likely Rs and all the solid Rs. And of course there are now some blue seats in solid R and likely R because of the, because of the redistricting. But so like, winning all the toss ups and all the lean Rs and only netting 13 seats is like not, it's not great.

[Dan Pfeiffer]

We didn't win all the lean Rs and all the toss ups in 2018.

[Jon Favreau]

Right, exactly. So it would have to be a better environment than 2018, which it might be. But like, still now to the broader national reforms, which again, we are not going to win this long term on a state by state basis. You have to have national reforms. National reform is the only way. Federal legislation is the only way to stop gerrymandering everywhere. It's the only way to change the Electoral College. It's the only way to change the Supreme Court. And in order to do that, it really comes down to, can we field candidates that win Senate seats. And in this cycle, at least Alaska, Texas, Iowa, Ohio, and people might say, oh, those are some hard states. It doesn't get easier than those. Doesn't get easier. And so if we're fielding candidates who can't figure out a way to win in those states and we're not focused on how to win in those states, then no one should be talking about all the other reforms because they're never gonna get done. And one thing I do worry about is that for people who don't pay close attention to politics, they're like, well, why won't the Democrats pack the court? Why won't the Democrats do this? Why won't the Democrats do this? Well, they can't because we didn't win the Senate. And we didn't win the Senate because we couldn't have a. We didn't get a candidate who could win Texas or could win Iowa or win. So I just. I only say that to tell people that, like you, we really have to focus on winning very difficult states, which we have a good chance of doing this in this environment with these candidates. Mary Peltola in Alaska and James Talarico in Texas, you can go on and on, but, like, those are the kind of. Those are the states that aren't just nice to win. Like, we have to win if we ever hope to have these national reforms.

[Dan Pfeiffer]

There's a longer conversation, and it's a quite depressing conversation about the state of the Senate map. Because if you sort of look at

[Jon Favreau]

it, but it's like, that's every. That's everything. That's all the stuff we're talking about. All the anger over the Vs. The. The Voting Rights act and the Supreme Court, all this shit. It all comes down to the Senate.

[Dan Pfeiffer]

Yeah. And I mean. Exactly. Right. And so if you look at the Senate map, I'm doing this off the top of my head, but there are only two Republicans in states, like, in remaining in truly swing states. And it's Ron Johnson in Wisconsin and Dave McCormick in Pennsylvania.

[Jon Favreau]

Yep.

[Dan Pfeiffer]

Because we have both senators in Michigan and we have both senators in Arizona. We have both senators in Georgia.

[Jon Favreau]

And it's like. And this is the map in 2026 where we are expanding into Alaska. This is why I think Mary Poltola's race is so important. Like, if we can now put Alaska in the column, then perhaps then if Murkowski retires at some point, maybe we can get the other seat there. So now we have that. But, like, it's, It's. Everyone's looking At Texas. Like, Democrats always. They always dream about Texas, but it never happens. And it's a lot. It's really expensive. So it was like, well, there's not a lot of other options. Yeah, you know, like, we're going to have to win Texas if we hope to survive as a democracy, unfortunately. And Florida, too. Like, I mean, this is just. Unless we want a bunch of liberals moving to Wyoming and fucking Montana, which,

[Dan Pfeiffer]

honestly, it's the highest leverage play that Democrats could do. You just move To Wyoming, move 50,000 to 100,000. Move 100,000 Californians to look Jackson beautiful. Or to Wyoming, do it after the 2030 census is completed so that we don't lose even more electoral votes. And then go, yeah, that's a.

[Jon Favreau]

You know what? No. Hey, you know what? This was a no bad ideas brainstorm.

[Dan Pfeiffer]

There could have been bad ideas, but there weren't.

[Jon Favreau]

At least. Well, that's what we're going to call it, that there could be bad ideas. Pod Save America is brought to you by ZipRecruiter. If you're hiring, you want a candidate who's passionate about your role. But you can't get that insight from a resume unless you post your job on ZipRecruiter. ZipRecruiter's powerful matching technology finds qualified candidates quickly. And. And ZipRecruiter has a new feature that shows you the most interested qualified candidates first. So you meet the right people faster. Candidates can tell you in their own words why they're interested in your job. No wonder ZipRecruiter is the number one rated hiring site based on G2.

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[Jon Favreau]

Would have gotten through a ZipRecruiter.

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I mean, we do want. Do we want the administration to have better people?

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[Adrian]

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Leslie.

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That makes sense. Sorry. Book with support, not surprises. Verbo Care and 24. 7 Life Support. If you know you've O terms apply. See vrbo.com trust for details.

[Jon Favreau]

All right, so one of the architects of the redistricting strategy, Trump political director James Blair, is about to take a leave from the White House to run the midterm operation full time. Like any good Beltway strategist, he marked the occasion by conducting a lengthy interview with Dasha Burns at Playbook about his plans, which were then transcribed, and he summed them up as attack, attack, attack. And his key quote swing voters already think the Democratic Party's too far left, and we're going to make sure voters know just how far left they are. They are woke, weak and way too liberal. You got three W's. You always need alliteration. He knew that liberal one at the end needed a way because you need the three W's. That's otherwise it's not a good slogan. And the and the whole country will be reminded of that. He also told Dasha Burns that Democratic primaries and infighting are doing real damage to the party and that he plans to capitalize on that. Seems like that's a play for social media to get everyone fighting even more, but we can leave that aside. If I'm not mistaken, Message Box Pro subscribers have already seen your take on this, Dan. But for those who have not visited messageboxpro.com to lock in the special early signup price before it's too late. How's that for an organic plug?

[Dan Pfeiffer]

That's organic, and I'm gonna make it even more organic in a second.

[John Lovett]

Yes.

[Jon Favreau]

How do you think Democrats should be prepared to respond to the weak, woke and way too liberal attack?

[Dan Pfeiffer]

Well, John, great question and great opportunity to talk about Mystery Box Pro, so thank you for that.

[Jon Favreau]

Wonderful.

[Dan Pfeiffer]

Some of you may remember a few weeks ago I launched Message Box Pro, which is a subscription service for people who are work in politics and communications at any level. And subscribers get weekly strategy memos from me. Data driven insights on what to say, advice on how to get your message heard, polling analysis and access to a community of candidates, operatives, activists and organizers.

[Jon Favreau]

Nerds.

[Dan Pfeiffer]

Nerds. Some are nerds, some are quite cool. The real nerds are not subscribers for the Word and we are up and running. We've already have strategy memos out on where swing voters get their information on how to construct a narrative for a coherent, cohesive narrative for this election, what the latest polling on the economy says and what to do with it. And the message box pro community is up and running and it's truly amazing. You have all these people in there every day connecting, sharing best practices. They're posting their questions for me, I'm answering them every day. It's really awesome. I'm really excited about it. And as you mentioned, there is a special founding members discounted price of $49.99 a month forever. It locks in forever. No matter how much Trump's raises, prices and everything else, you get to lock this price in. There are only a handful of those left, so there is no better time to sign up than now. So go to messageboxpro.com end of quasi organic plug. Thank you.

[Jon Favreau]

I'm going to give a quasi organic plug on a plug here. I was doing a fundraising event where I was moderating for a couple house candidates in this cycle and they're in the red to blue program and they could flip their seats and they said to the crowd that because the D trip offers them financial support and all the support that the D trip can, but they're not getting detailed campaign advice, they're not getting detailed strategy advice. It is hard to hire pollsters, strategists, right? You've got your like very small team if you're running a house campaign. And so they were like, we listen to Pod Save America a lot to try to get like we to try to get advice. And I'm like, oh gosh, now I'm sorry, we gotta make sure we get some. We can't have too many no bad ideas brainstorms here. But our friend Dan here doesn't just spout off ideas on the pod. He's gonna write them down in memos. Precisely for candidates like this who can't afford to hire fancy consultants. But Dan can provide his wisdom in written form to all of you who are running for office especially. And that's our house candidates. What about people who are running for like local office and races that are even smaller than that and they definitely can't afford to have these consultants. So I think it's a fair, fantastic service that you're doing this. I think it's very much needed. And if you are someone who's running for office out there or working for someone who's running for office, I think this would be a very, very valuable use of your money.

[Dan Pfeiffer]

Well, thank you for that double on quasi organic plug. But now, now I answer your original question.

[Jon Favreau]

Yeah, I forgot. Forgot I asked a question. We're just plugging everything.

[Dan Pfeiffer]

The question relates to James Blair woke week and way too liberal.

[Jon Favreau]

That's it.

[Dan Pfeiffer]

And so basically what James Blair is doing here, other than just puffing his chest in a Politico interview, is trying to rerun the 2024 strategy in 2026. And I have bad news for Mr. Blair. It's not 2024 anymore. The world has changed. Views of Trump have changed. The In 2024, Trump was seen as strong, seen as much stronger than Biden, much stronger than Kamala Harris. Democrats were seen as the extreme party that has flipped. Pluralities of voters now describe Trump's leadership as weak. There is a tip poll from last week which shows that a large number of independents describe his leadership as weak. He is not seen as a strong man anymore, in part because he is dawdling around out there. He's not getting anything done. He's sleeping at events. He just seems distracted. And he doesn't seem like a strong figure because he promised to take on the system and he really didn't do any of that. And even. Well, I'm not saying the Democrats have, we have are associated with American flags, baseball and apple pie right now. But voters now, because of the way Trump is governed, voters now see the Republican Party as more extreme. In the Cook Political Report poll of the 32 battleground districts, more voters are worried about Republican extremism than Democrat extremism. So like, I'm not saying that this, that this strategy can't have some effect. It can. It's more likely to have an effect in ginning up GOP turnout than persuading swing voters. But it is not. Maybe it's the only strategy available to them with a president with these approval ratings saying all the dumb shit he's saying. But it's not necessarily a winning strategy.

[Jon Favreau]

You get one of these attacks if you're running in a Senate race or a House race, run a bunch of ads that you know some crazy position you've taken in the past and you're weak and you're too woke and all that kind of shit. Do you. How do you respond? You respond to the attack. You ignore the attack or you do the. They're just doing this because they have nothing to say about the fact that you can't afford gas and rent and your mortgage.

[Dan Pfeiffer]

You don't do that last one, but let me, let me explain. I think the way to think about this is they just, it's we're six months from the election. There aren't really ads on the air in any of these races. They've told us what the plan is so you can prepare for it. So you spend that between now and then inoculating yourself against that attack. And there are a couple ways to do that. One is this is an attack on generic Democrats. Don't be a generic Democrat. Find ways to separate yourself from the party. You can do that going to the middle. You can do that going to the left, depending on your district. You can do that by criticizing the former, the former president. You can do that by criticizing the leadership. Run again, be willing to run against the Democratic establishment. That will help inoculate you against an attack on generic Democrats. So that's 1, 2 is the way you demonstrate strength is not trying to talk tougher on immigration or crime than Trump, although you should. If those are issues in your race, you should have positions on them that show that you, that you take people's concerns about them seriously. The way you show strength is to show that you are a fighter. Right. How you fight is more important than whether you fight left or you fight right or you fight middle. It is that you are fighting for something. So look for ways to highlight that about yourself and go on offense and attack the other side as extreme and demonstrate their extremism.

[Jon Favreau]

Okay. All right. Good advice. You can get some more of that [e-mail] all right. While we're talking about Democratic strategy, there's been some developments around the DNC autopsy report in which we have taken great interest. The chair of the dnc, less so. The AP reported on Wednesday that, quote, Democratic operatives have begun informal discussions about recruiting a new chair and that senior strategists have even approached our pal Amanda Littman, founder of Run for Something about the Job. Though she has declined. They also interviewed the ap, also interviewed current and former party officials who defended Ken Martin, said his job is safe and are apparently mad at us for asking him why he hasn't kept his promise to release the autopsy. Then on Thursday, our friends at the Bulwark published a piece from former Biden Harris deputy campaign manager Rob Flaherty titled here's what I told the DNC autopsy. We've talked to Rob before. He's been on offline. I feel like he's been on the pod at some point.

[Dan Pfeiffer]

He's been on podcast.

[Jon Favreau]

Yeah, I've interviewed him on Potsy Murder. It's a long piece. Long, long piece. But especially if you're working on campaigns, if you're an operative, if you're in the field, if you're volunteers. Plenty of interesting insights that we can get into. But one notable thing I want to highlight, Rob writes that his understanding of the autopsy mystery is that, quote, no autopsy was released because there is no actual autopsy. The members of the autopsy team were in over their heads and struggled to put the thing together. What they produced was a loose summary of a bunch of interviews that were largely done without talking to the campaign or the big spenders, end quote. Now, Tommy and Lovett and I sort of talked about this a little after the Ken Martin interview. Tommy had heard similar reports, I had heard similar reports from people, from different people. So this is just more corrobo of that story from Rob, who was interviewed by the autopsy team. And then his autopsy, we know what he told them was never went anywhere and so he published this piece. Your reactions to Rob's piece and also the continued frustrations with Ken Martin and the Missing Autopsy, which is the great

[Dan Pfeiffer]

title for a hardy voice book. The Autopsy DNC Ken Martin conversation is so frustrating because it's very clear what happened here. Right? Like there is Ken Martin promised to do an autopsy. The people he picked to do the autopsy did a piss poor job. There is no autopsy. He looked at that, what that was said, we cannot release this. It would be embarrassing. And now he's under. He's out there saying, we can't release the autopsy, but there's no autopsy, so we can't solve the problem. Because what he can't do, because he has not been the easiest thing to do would be to say to do it right the first time, which would have been cool.

[Jon Favreau]

That's number one. Yeah, number one.

[Dan Pfeiffer]

Failing that to just be honest and say it needs more time. And you would have taken some shit for that, but that is better. But then to say it's finished, it's in a drawer, it's incredibly useful. Look at the playbook we use based on it. Well, will you release it? Well, we can't release it because it doesn't exist. And so we're Just like, it's a. Never ending. He's basically lied himself into a corner here.

[Jon Favreau]

Yeah, yeah, he has. And this is what. This is what's so enraging about it, because like you said, would he have taken some shit if. When they said the autopsy was gonna be released, he said, you know what? It's not ready. We need more time. You know, there's a whole. Yeah, but, like, if I had interviewed him then and he said that to me, even if he said it to me when I interviewed him a couple weeks ago, he was like, you know what? I know. I said we were gonna release it. I know people want it. We're gonna. The midterms are coming, and we're gonna be working on it. And then, you know, the day after the midterms, we will release full one because it'll be, you know, we're gonna head into primary season then. And then for campaigns running for president, they can learn lessons then. And we're gonna do that. I would've been like, oh, okay, cool. Instead of what he's dealing with right now. And it is the thing that everyone's like, oh, the autopsy, the autopsy. Who's obsessed with the autopsy? Is not the fucking. I mean, it is the point, because I think it is very useful, but it is the.

[Dan Pfeiffer]

Well, theoretically useful.

[Jon Favreau]

Theoretically useful, but it's the dishonesty that is really crazy right now. And on Rob's thing. So what we have here, and this is Rob's thing in relation to Ken's answers, we have a single senior Biden Harris official wrote his own autopsy that includes more info and more lessons than anything Ken Martin's DNC has released. And, you know, contrary to what Ken tried to tell me, like, the world hasn't ended. Democrats aren't tearing themselves apart over it. Rob writes that some of his own colleagues, like, disagree with some of the things that he concluded in there. Fine. They can write. Their own people can debate it, figure out the best way to move forward so we can win. We're all big boys and girls. Like, we can all be trusted with the information. And what it seems like for every time Ken Martin talks about this and now some other DNC officials, former and current, that are defending him, is that, like, they don't believe that we should be trusted with the information. They don't think that we should have it. Ken Martin either thinks that we're stupid or that we don't deserve the full truth. And either option is completely unacceptable for the person who's running the Democratic National Committee. You know.

[Dan Pfeiffer]

Yeah. It's so. The whole thing is just so stupid and pointless because we didn't have to be here. Like what matters? A lot of people say, like, what are you going to learn from this autopsy? Even if it was perfectly done? That's to me beside the point.

[Jon Favreau]

Yes.

[Dan Pfeiffer]

What bothers me about this is that the way the autopsy has been handled is indicative of the larger problems at the dnc. And you hear this from a lot of people in the party, donors, operatives, elected officials. Very few people are happy with the way things are going. The dnc. They're not happy with how the money's being spent. They're not happy with how little is being raised. And we like Ken Martin with you can debate all the factors of it, but there is dissatisfaction there and there are challenges in the leadership and is born as autopsy. So like what do you do about that? Can you get a new DNC chair?

[John Lovett]

I don't know.

[Dan Pfeiffer]

It's not a particularly easy thing to do. Apparently the big problem is not the rules in getting rid of the DNC chair, it's finding someone who will take the job because the job sucks. And it's very, very hard. And Ken Martin was dealt a very, very, very tough hand with and you know, it's just the whole thing is dumb.

[Jon Favreau]

Well, it. I think the problems at the DNC and the lack of transparency and the dishonesty from Ken are also, I think, emblematic of a larger issue with the Democratic establishment. And this goes back to Rob's piece. Rob, who was one of Biden's most senior staffers, writes in the piece, quote, president Biden never should have run for reelection in the first place. End quote. Now, like credit to Rob for admitting that and also for acknowledging that when he publicly made the case after the Biden Trump debate, that Biden was still the only person who could beat Trump and the rest of us who thought otherwise were, you know, self important bedwetters, self important podcasters. Well, he also word.

[Dan Pfeiffer]

We were all specific words and they

[Jon Favreau]

were combining two was also. And then everyone else is the. The bedwetting brigade.

[Dan Pfeiffer]

Yes.

[Jon Favreau]

So beyond podcasters, anyone who thought that, anyone who thought that maybe that debate was bad and maybe Joe Biden should step aside, was part of the bedwetting brigade, which I guess included most Americans. And Rob, to his credit and the thing says he was basically just trying to be a team player cuz he was on the campaign, it's like, that's fine. But the reason I bring that up is I promise not to relitigate Old beefs. But I don't think.

[Dan Pfeiffer]

Let's do an entire section on Ken Martin and the guy who wrote the email that called us self important podcasters. But the goal is not to relitigate all beasts.

[Jon Favreau]

No. And this is what everyone should read. Rob's thing. And I want to talk about some of Rob's insights, cuz I think they're great and Rob and I have talked about it privately, so it's not like this is the first time this is happening. But I do not think that the Democratic establishment has fully reckoned with the magnitude of the credibility problem that it has with voters. And a big reason why is that a whole bunch of them tried to tell us with a straight face that Joe Biden was fine and the debate wasn't that bad and he was still the only person who could beat Donald Trump. And now Ken Martin is trying to tell us with a straight face that actually he has been releasing the lessons from 2024 and we're all assholes for wanting the full autopsy. And the DNC's finances are totally fine. And if people in the Democratic establishment who work on campaigns, candidates, officials, if they want to keep doing that shit, fine. But don't be surprised when people don't believe what you say about politics. It's just like, and like I don't. It's like there is a credibility problem here. And I get, we've been on the inside and I get it and you're on a team and you just, you've got to like anyone who criticizes you, their bedwetters and all that bullshit. But like, you have to forget about the people criticizing. You have to think about beyond that what the voters think. And don't treat voters like they're stupid. Like people know when you're lying to them. Everyone knew that Ken Martin wasn't telling the truth in that interview. It was pretty obvious.

[Dan Pfeiffer]

Yeah, I mean there are two different things. Yeah, that was the big problem. There's a different way in which the interview goes where Ken Martin comes on, he gives his answer and is not defensive about it and doesn't keep trying. He basically kept trying to tell you that he actually, for all intents and purposes, released the autopsy. So you should stop asking about it. And that's how he ended up down this rabbit hole, which he could not get himself out of. I guess the only thing I would add is, and if you want to talk about the recommendations in Rob's report, which I think is quite good, but I just think the one just to put A button on it. And I say this with good nature, is that Rob, who called us self important podcasters in that email, discussed the autopsy today on his podcast, which Rob

[Jon Favreau]

is self aware enough to make jokes about, which is great.

[Dan Pfeiffer]

Yes.

[Jon Favreau]

Which is totally fine. Again, call us whatever the fuck you want, but it's just the whole, it's

[Dan Pfeiffer]

actually great for us in the long run.

[Jon Favreau]

Right. Joe Biden not stepping aside cost us all a lot. Right? All of us and not forget about us, but lots of people.

[Dan Pfeiffer]

Not us.

[Jon Favreau]

It didn't cost you on us. I'm fine, but like the whole country collectively cost us. That's what I'm at. Yes, collectively. And I think, you know, part of the autopsy is not like, oh well, Biden's gone, whatever. But it is the, the Ken Martin thing. And I think the reason I was so exercised about it is that like, it was like PTSD from 2024, where the Democratic Party is like, all is fine, don't believe your eyes. Everything is good here. Leave it to us. We got it. And you're all, you're all bedwetters. So what do you think? Some of, some of the recommendations and insights from Rob's memoir, like what, what, what's, what stood out at you.

[Dan Pfeiffer]

So what I worried a little bit about just sort of 2024 lessons in general, the autopsy is 2024 is somewhat of a black swan event. Right. You have Biden, you have this older candidate who does not leave, then face plants on a debate stage and then they just throw the vice president with 107 days to go.

[Jon Favreau]

Yeah.

[Dan Pfeiffer]

Against someone like Donald Trump who then gets shot in the ear. Like, you know, it's just, you know,

[Jon Favreau]

like every, like tough series of events,

[Dan Pfeiffer]

tough series events that are not going to, you know, knock on wood, happen again. And so like there is this world in which you could take the wrong lessons from something like that, or you could just throw up your arms and say, it was 107 days, we were fucked, inflation was high. What I thought was useful about Rob's was, I think some of the lessons in there are useful for campaigns going forward in terms of how you think about communicating in this media age. Even he makes a point that the campaign spent half as much on digital as on TV, which was a dramatic shift from 2020, when it was 7030 TV digital, I believe. But TV was sort of still the dominant medium. Right. It was really how it drove is where the campaigns, the messaging they truly believed in went. It sort of was how they thought about the campaign strategy and I thought, just thinking about almost not getting rid of all TV ads, but shifting the focus more digital. The one thing I thought he said at the end that was very smart was. And this is something that I think it's smart because I agree with it and I've been arguing for it for years, is that you have to. Digital should no longer be an apartment in a campaign.

[Jon Favreau]

And I thought about you when I

[Dan Pfeiffer]

read that it's all digital. And I think that we really have to just think that way. And there's a lot of very specific things about how you deal with creators and how to think about branding and all of that. And something. There are unanswerable questions about how. And we're getting really nerdy here, how you think about digital persuasion in an algorithmically powered world that only shows people content they already agree with.

[Jon Favreau]

Yes, we had the debate a million times throughout the 2024 campaign about what is polling well and testing well. And the people who test these ads, and they test it with, like, not just 300 voters in some shitty public poll, but, like, thousands and thousands of voters. And like, with, you know, and they're like, these are. These are really great testing messages. And yet, you know, Kamala Harris talking about fascism or this or that, or Brat Summer, all the bullshit. And Rob talks about this in terms of brand, and I hate the word brand. It's icky. But I think it is useful in this context.

[Dan Pfeiffer]

You have to use it.

[Jon Favreau]

Yeah, yeah, I get it. But he says at one point, you know, we could have focused more on prescription drugs or whatever the top polling issue was, but that would have been driving a message when we should have been building a brand. A brand is a story about who you are and what you believe, that everything else, the ads, the organic content, the surrogates, the creator appearances, the events, levels up to. I think this is. I think that is so important. And I worry sometimes that when we. And this is like a. I think a legacy of when we grew up in politics, which was like, you get the polling back, you get the messaging. These are the top polling messages. We must get these messages out because they work with voters.

[Dan Pfeiffer]

We.

[Jon Favreau]

But voters are never going to fucking hear these messages anymore if they are boring. If they don't tell a story about the candidate, maybe they'll hear the messages, but they won't be persuasive as to voting for the actual candidate, because they may like the message, but they may not like the candidate delivering the message, or may not trust the candidate delivering the message. And so everything has to level up to, who is this person? What do they stand for? Why are they running for president? So much of what Rob's memo made me think is that, like, just the importance of the candidates themselves. Like, we. I know, I know, but like, you. You think that's fucking obvious, Dan. But it's clearly not. It's clearly not in our party because we do all this stuff around the candidates, give them good ads, good messaging. This, that the campaign staff we blame for this, that. But it's like, if you don't. I mean, at one point he talks about. He says digital presence is a direct reflection of a candidate's brand. It's how voters come to understand who a candidate is. For this to work, the candidate needs to be actively engaged in the planning and execution of their social media presence. And Rob tells a story about when AOC endorsed Biden. He talked to AOC for like, 45 minutes about. And she had, like, detailed ideas about digital, about how she wanted her. The videos they did with her, what she wanted to say, all this kind of stuff. And then he said when he worked for Beto, back when Beto ran, Beto was like, the same way when. When Beto was, like, going viral and all that kind of stuff. And this is the same thing that I say a million times with speechwriting, right? Which is like, because Barack Obama was so involved in his speeches and because I spent enough time with him, that's the only reason I was able to, like, help him deliver good speeches. And I think on a lot of campaigns, the candidate looks to the staff and the consultants and is like, all right, make me a winner. And I just don't think you can do that. Now. I think if you were going, especially if you're gonna run for president, you need to know exactly what you believe, exactly why you wanna be president. And you need to be able to communicate that, if not first to the American people, to at least your staff on a regular basis. And I just don't think that has happened in a while.

[Dan Pfeiffer]

This is gonna be an unpopular suggestion that I often offer to candidates when I talk to them, and this drives the staff fucking bananas. But if you were thinking of running for president right now, and you do not have TikTok Instagram on your phone and you're not going to YouTube and just watching it, then you should not run. And maybe you want to put on a burner because you don't necessarily want the Chinese government, Larry Ellison, to have all your shit. But point being is, you have to be fluent in the language of today's media ecosystem to understand it. And it can't just be that you're, you know, Rob makes this in the point. It can't just be that your staff walks in and gives you a, a quick five minute briefing and a memo on what you're supposed to do because you don't understand it. When they relaunched the HQ account as headquarters or whatever it is now, that was the Kamala hq. And Kamala Harris did this briefing. She did a video for it. She clearly had no idea what it was or what it was going to do.

[Jon Favreau]

But that is, unfortunately, that is a lot of Kamala Harris appearances.

[Dan Pfeiffer]

Yeah. You have to swim in the sometimes very rough and dirty seas of today's Internet to be able to truly communicate.

[Jon Favreau]

I was gonna say when you said sit down and make sure you have all those on your phone. Yes. I think the other thing you need to do is before you even meet with your advisors, like, and this sounds maybe cheesy and a little antiquated, but I don't know, write down, type out why you wanna be president, what you wanna do. Do you have a few big ideas? Like actual big ideas. Not like, I wanna grow the middle class, I wanna bring down costs. No, no, like, like people didn't like it. It was controversial. Everyone knew what it was by the end. Freeze the rent free public buses. Like, like if you want someone more moderate, Gretchen Whitmer, when she was running in Michigan, fix the damn roads. Right. Like just pick fucking something that you actually want to do that you will be able to talk about and communicate about in an authentic way on all of those platforms that you are also watching. Because they're on your phone. Yeah.

[Dan Pfeiffer]

If you do not know why you're running, you can't answer what the. What is known once known as the Ted Kennedy question.

[Jon Favreau]

Right.

[Dan Pfeiffer]

Because he failed to answer it.

[Donald Trump]

Yeah.

[Dan Pfeiffer]

In the 80 race, then you shouldn't run. But then, then all the time. Well, TikTok's not going to help you then.

[Jon Favreau]

You're just. Then you're just consuming content. You're just doom scrolling. Anyway, go read it. It's at the Bulwark. I'm glad Rob did it. Good for him. And other people should do the same because I guess we're not going to get it out of the dnc. All right, one last story before we go. The new gold statue of Donald Trump that was gifted to the President by cryptogrifters and blessed by his spiritual advisor and pastor who has repeatedly claimed that, quote, this is not a golden calf, but rather a symbol of resilience and gratitude to God for sparing Trump's life from a sniper's bullet in Butler. All of that is real. That is a real thing. That happened earlier in the week. Trump himself couldn't make it to the statue dedication, which was, I believe, at his Doral Golf Club. But he did call into the ceremony with, with this observation.

[Donald Trump]

It's. Everybody is taking pictures of it. Everybody is. My people told me that it's unbelievable. All day long they're taking pictures. They stand up next to it and they have their picture taken.

[Jon Favreau]

It is unbelievable. He is correct about that. I would definitely take a picture next to it. The the Palm Beach Post interviewed a bunch of PGA pros who were at Doral for a tournament. Best response? It's big in gold. About all I got. It's his place. He can do whatever he wants.

[Dan Pfeiffer]

I guess that's true. It's big in gold. He can do whatever he wants.

[Jon Favreau]

What did you think of this one?

[Dan Pfeiffer]

Just so fucking weird. It's so weird. Like, I want every person in America to see this. Like, it is a just the idea that the president just. I want you to think about this for a second. We're at war. Prices are high. Shit's not going great. Generally, presidents, even in the best of times, are pretty busy. So there's a scheduling meeting. They talk about the things the president could do. And remember when you're scheduling Trump, you have to schedule it around six to eight hours of Fox News viewing.

[Jon Favreau]

And truth socialing.

[Dan Pfeiffer]

And truth. Well, truth socialing really happens after working hours when he should be asleep. And you decide this request comes and you're like, you know what? That could be good use of the president's time. You know what wouldn't be fucking weird at all. You know, it would not. What would definitely be good politics and not at all contribute to the idea that he's a narcissist who cares only about himself. Let's have him call into the ceremony about the gold statue delivered from God of the President at his golf club.

[Jon Favreau]

So many parts of the story are funny. The people who did the statue, created the statue, used it to sell a meme coin called Patriot Coin. So these are the crypto times. And then there's the pastor who's I guess became his spiritual advisor. Just did a great.

[Dan Pfeiffer]

Doing a bang up job of that.

[Jon Favreau]

Sign me up. Just did an Isaac Chotiner interview, which, oh, man. He asked him like, how did you get into this? How'd you get to become a Trump supporter. And he said, so early on, I was there, and the Lord told me then the first thing the Lord told me was to show the world that this man's not racist. And then. And then at the end, Isaac asks him about the. The AI image of Jesus and what he thought about that. And he said, well, again, I was one of the first people to reach out to the president and say that was bad. Please take that down as fast as possible. And Isaac said, what did he say? He said he thought it was a doctor, but again, he's no theologian. And then Isaac says, I'm not a theologian, and I knew it wasn't a doctor. And the pastor just goes, great, great.

[Dan Pfeiffer]

So good. So I'm so glad we can still laugh.

[Jon Favreau]

Yeah. You know, just throw the statue up there with the ballroom and the arch and the $400 million Qatari jet and the $10 billion he's putting in his pocket from the IRS.

[Dan Pfeiffer]

Just.

[Jon Favreau]

Oh, good.

[Dan Pfeiffer]

Free idea for Democratic digital consultants is evolve a little AI. So, okay, follow your. Follow your local.

[Jon Favreau]

Clutch your pearls.

[Dan Pfeiffer]

Well, also, it is illegal in some states, but we need images and maybe it's Need Photoshop. You just need images of vulnerable Republicans worshipping at the Trump statue.

[Jon Favreau]

It's a good idea.

[Dan Pfeiffer]

I think J.D. vance and. Or Marco Rubio and that. You know what? Not even message box pro. That shit's free.

[Jon Favreau]

I mean, it is now. You just said it.

[Dan Pfeiffer]

Yeah.

[Jon Favreau]

We're not putting this behind the paywall. Lucky you guys. All right, that's our show for today. And in case you want more Dan and more, great advice. He's back in your feet on Sunday with our pal David Axelrod. Can't wait for that episode.

[Dan Pfeiffer]

Excited.

[Jon Favreau]

Have a good weekend, everyone.

[Dan Pfeiffer]

Bye, everyone.

[Jon Favreau]

Pods in America is a crooked media production. Our show is produced by Austin Fisher, Saul Rubin, McKenna Roberts, and Farah Safari, with Richard Elijah Cohn and Adrian Hill. Our team includes Matt de Groat, Ben Hethcote, Jordan Kantor, Charlotte Landis, Kirill Pelaviev, David Toles, Mia Kelman, Ryan Young, and Naomi Singel. Our staff is proudly unionized with the Writers Guild of America East.