100 Perfect Days

Summary

Pod Save America - Episode Summary: "100 Perfect Days" (April 29, 2025)

In this landmark 100th episode of "Pod Save America," hosts Jon Favreau, Jon Lovett, Dan Pfeiffer, and Tommy Vietor delve deep into the first 100 days of Donald Trump's second presidency. The discussion navigates through the administration's controversial policies, particularly focusing on immigration, economic strategies, and the resulting public sentiment. Additionally, the episode highlights the robust opposition from Democrats, media outlets, and various institutions striving to counteract the President's agenda.

---

1. Overview of Trump's 100 Days

The hosts kick off the episode by addressing the Trump administration's attempt to frame the first 100 days as a period of significant achievement, albeit humorously dubbed "100 Days Week."

• Jon Favreau [02:24]: "We're somehow only 100 days into Donald Trump's second term, and the only promising news is that just about all the polling is now showing that the president and his agenda and his party have already reached historic levels of unpopularity in just three months."

This segment sets the tone for the episode, emphasizing the administration's struggles in garnering public support within the initial phase of the presidency.

---

2. Immigration Controversies

A significant portion of the discussion centers on the Trump administration's aggressive immigration policies, which have sparked widespread outrage and legal challenges.

Deportation of U.S. Citizen Children

• Jon Lovett [04:01]: "Not pictured on the lawn were three small American kids—the administration just deported a two-year-old, a four-year-old, and a seven-year-old. All U.S. Citizens who were sent out of the country when they showed up with their mothers for routine immigration checks."

The tragic deportation of U.S. citizen children has been a focal point of criticism, highlighting the administration's disregard for due process and humanitarian considerations.

Arrest of Judge Hannah Dugan

• Jon Favreau [05:37]: Discusses the arrest of Wisconsin county judge Hannah Dugan, accused of aiding an undocumented immigrant's escape.

• Dan Pfeiffer [05:37]: "If you choose to have a U.S. Citizen child, knowing you're in this country legally, you put yourself in that position... This was not a case where... there was no danger... These are questions that require humility and compassion."

The episode critiques the administration's methodology, suggesting a rushed and inhumane approach devoid of empathy and legal safeguards.

Administration's Justifications and Public Response

• Neera Tanden [06:23]: "I think big picture, it tells you that the process is a rush disaster and the Trump administration doesn't really care... They're just moving as quickly as they can."

The administration's attempts to downplay these actions as parental decisions lacking meaningful process are met with skepticism and condemnation from the hosts.

---

3. Economic Policies and Trade War

The Trump administration's economic strategies, particularly the imposition of tariffs and trade tensions with China, have had profound implications.

• Jon Favreau [26:44]: "He is going to go much further than he ever has in the past because he does not care as much about public opinion as he ever did."

The tariffs have not only strained international relations but have also led to inflation and economic instability domestically, with significant public disapproval.

• Neera Tanden [27:08]: "Like the China piece... if Trump doesn't want to back down, it's going to cause some serious problems in the long run."

The hosts express concern over the long-term economic repercussions and the administration's inflexibility in negotiations.

---

4. Polling and Public Opinion

Public sentiment towards President Trump and his administration is notably negative, with approval ratings plummeting across various polls.

• Jon Lovett [31:33]: "There's one number from the Harvard poll that jumped out, which is, I think 59% of young men now disapprove of Trump. So he's lost the boys."

• Neera Tanden [32:10]: "The numbers are abysmal... even people who voted for him think he's gone too far."

These statistics underscore a widespread disapproval, particularly among key demographics such as young people, independents, and Hispanic communities.

---

5. Democratic Resistance Efforts

In response to the administration's policies, Democrats are mobilizing through protests, speeches, and strategic planning to counteract Trump's agenda.

Protests and Activism

• Senator Cory Booker and House Democratic Leader Hakeem Jeffries conducted a 12-hour sit-in on Capitol steps protesting the Republican budget.

• Illinois Governor J.B. Pritzker delivered a fervent speech in New Hampshire urging mass mobilization against the administration's cruelty.

Alternative Agendas and Policy Proposals

• Neera Tanden [Tommy Vietor Interview]: Emphasizes the need for Democrats to present a clear alternative agenda, focusing on practical solutions to pressing issues like immigration reform and economic fairness.

• Tommy Vietor [68:45]: "We have to offer solutions on a whole range of issues... The focus should be what is the problem and how are we fixing it."

This approach aims to shift the narrative from merely opposing Trump to actively presenting viable alternatives that resonate with the electorate.

---

6. Media and Institutional Pressures

The Trump administration has exerted significant pressure on media outlets and institutions, leading to resignations and challenges to journalistic integrity.

60 Minutes Executive Resignation

• Dan Pfeiffer [54:44]: Discusses the resignation of Bill Owens, the executive producer of "60 Minutes," who stepped down amidst pressure from the Trump administration to overlook critical reporting.

• Scott Pelley [54:49]: "Bill proved he was the right person to lead 60 Minutes all along."

This event highlights the administration's attempts to control media narratives and suppress unfavorable reporting.

Law Firms and Corporate Media

• Neera Tanden [58:43]: "The Trump administration is weaponizing the Department of Justice to punish law firms, news outlets..."

The pressure extends beyond media to legal institutions, with notable law firms like Jenner & Block facing executive orders targeting their diversity policies.

---

7. Signs of Hope and Future Outlook

Despite the bleak landscape, there are emerging signs of resilience and hope within Democratic circles and institutions.

Democratic Leadership and Grassroots Movements

• Protests and Speeches: Democratic leaders like Cory Booker and J.B. Pritzker are taking bold stances, inspiring grassroots movements and encouraging voter mobilization.

• Law Firm Resistance: Independent law firms are contesting executive orders, defending their diversity policies, and upholding legal standards despite administrative pressures.

Public Opinion and Institutional Support

• Jon Lovett [33:11]: "That is heartening... voters don't want chaos... they think these deportations are cruel and over the top."

Public trust in institutions is bolstered by the administration's declining approval ratings, empowering courts and other bodies to act with greater independence.

---

8. Conclusion

"Pod Save America" paints a dire yet nuanced picture of the Trump administration's initial 100 days, underscored by deplorable immigration practices, economic turmoil, and aggressive media suppression. However, the vigorous resistance from Democrats, bolstered by declining public approval and institutional support, offers a glimmer of hope. The episode underscores the critical need for Democrats to not only oppose but also proactively present comprehensive policy alternatives, ensuring a resilient and democratic future amidst escalating authoritarian tendencies.

---

Notable Quotes:

• Dan Pfeiffer [05:37]: "If you choose to have a U.S. Citizen child, knowing you're in this country legally, you put yourself in that position..."

• Neera Tanden [06:23]: "I think big picture, it tells you that the process is a rush disaster and the Trump administration doesn't really care."

• Jon Lovett [31:33]: "There's one number from the Harvard poll that jumped out, which is, I think 59% of young men now disapprove of Trump. So he's lost the boys."

• Tommy Vietor [68:45]: "We have to offer solutions on a whole range of issues... The focus should be what is the problem and how are we fixing it."

• Dan Pfeiffer [54:44]: "Bill proved he was the right person to lead 60 Minutes all along."

---

This comprehensive summary encapsulates the pivotal discussions and insights from the "100 Perfect Days" episode of "Pod Save America," providing a clear and detailed overview for both existing listeners and newcomers alike.

Transcript

[Jon Favreau]

Today's presenting sponsor is Simplisafe Home Security. Here's a chilling fact. Homes without a security system are 300% more likely to be broken into.

[Jon Lovett]

Wow.

[Jon Favreau]

But securing your home doesn't have to be complicated or expensive. SimpliSafe is changing the game with innovative, affordable protection for every family. Have you ever heard about this Simplisafe?

[Jon Lovett]

I have heard about Simplisafe. I've lived under its protective auspices. You need Simplisafe on that wall. All right.

[Jon Favreau]

And the window, and the window and the door.

[Jon Lovett]

That was vaguely in the rhythm of, you know what it was. Anyway, the point is, I set up Assemblisafe, works perfectly. Fantastic app user experience, great customer support. You need a security system. It's for peace of mind. Peace of mind in this day and age seems impossible. But not around this one thing of security at the house.

[Jon Favreau]

With Simplisafe, millions of Americans enjoy the new standard in home security and greater peace of mind every time they arm their system when heading out into the morning or when locking up each night. Traditional security systems only take action after someone's already broken in that's too late. SimpliSafe's Active Guard Outdoor protection can help prevent break ins before they happen. If someone's lurking around or acting suspiciously, those agents see and talk to them in real time, activate spotlights and even contact the police. All before they have the chance to get in your home. No long term contracts or cancellation fees. Monitoring plans start affordably at around a dollar a day, 60 day satisfaction guarantee or your money back. Visit simplisafe.com crooked to claim 50% off a new system. Win with a professional monitoring plan and get your first month free. That's SimpliSafe.com crooked there's no safe like SimpliSafe.

[Jon Lovett]

As a contractor, I don't pay for materials I don't use.

[Tommy Vietor]

So why would I pay for stuff.

[Jon Lovett]

I don't need in my mobile plan? That's why the new my biz plan.

[Jon Favreau]

From Verizon Business is so perfect.

[Jon Lovett]

Now I can choose exactly what I.

[Tommy Vietor]

Want and I only pay for what.

[Jon Favreau]

I need right now with my biz plan. Get our best price as low as $25 a line. Visit verizon.com business to get started today. Price per month with five plus lines include auto pay and paper free billing and special intro offer discounts, taxes, fees, economic adjustment charge and terms apply. Offers end June 10, 2025. Welcome to Pod Save America. I'm Jon Favreau.

[Jon Lovett]

I'm Jon Lovett.

[Jon Favreau]

Tommy Vitorin on today's show, we are somehow only 100 days into Donald Trump's second term, and the only promising news is that just about all the polling is now showing that the president and his agenda and his party have already reached historic levels of unpopularity in just three months. We'll talk about where things stand, how we're feeling and the state of the opposition. Then you'll hear the conversation that Dan had when we were in D.C. with our old friend Neera Tanden, who's once again running the center for American Progress. But let's start with what the White House wants to be talking about on day one of what they're calling Hundred days Week.

[Jon Lovett]

What? Hundred days Week, Tommy.

[Dan Pfeiffer]

Seriously?

[Jon Favreau]

Calling it, they're calling it 100 days week. So it's like it's the hundredth day, but then it's a week of days. I wonder if it's like 100 days month again. How do you do the math there?

[Jon Lovett]

Just beaten by the dumbest motherfuckers on earth. A friend of mine.

[Jon Favreau]

We sure are.

[Jon Lovett]

A friend of mine is on a jury and it's federal or it's in a federal building and he went to report for jury duty and there was a notice on the front of the DOJ saying that they hadn't been paying their water bill and that the water is going to be turned off starting next week.

[Jon Favreau]

Feels like that's an Elon question.

[Jon Lovett]

An Elon question.

[Jon Favreau]

They do turn the water off.

[Jon Lovett]

They doge the person that's in charge of paying the bill.

[Jon Favreau]

They doge the water payment person. On day one of 100 days a week, they want to talk about deportations. They kicked things off on Monday morning by putting signs all over the White House lawn that had photos of people they've deported along with the crimes they've committed. I'm sure Stephen Miller was out there in the middle of the night putting up the signs.

[Neera Tanden]

Oh, he was doing Photoshop. He was making these himself.

[Jon Lovett]

Yeah, doing something. Getting pretty excited.

[Jon Favreau]

Not pictured on the lawn were three small American kids the administration just deported a two year old, a four year old and a seven year old. All US Citizens who were sent out of the country when they showed up with their mothers for routine immigration check INS in New Orleans. The 2 year old's father is an American citizen who had asked a federal court to keep his daughter with him. But before the courthouse could open, the government had already deported the girl and her mother to Honduras. The presiding judge, who is a conservative Trump appointee, said it's quote illegal and unconstitutional to deport a citizen. And scheduled a hearing for May 16, quote, in the interest of dispelling our strong suspicion that the government just deported a US Citizen with no meaningful process, that is the conservative Trump appointee. The four year old and the seven year old are siblings. And according to the family's lawyers, the four year old has stage four cancer and was deported without their medication or the ability to contact their medical team. Stomach churning stuff. The other big deportation story is the highly publicized arrest on Friday of a county judge in Wisconsin, Hannah Dugan, who the administration says helped an undocumented immigrant escape from her courthouse. As ICE agents arrived to make an arrest, FBI Cash Patel essentially live tweeted the arrest and later posted a photo of Dugan being frog marched to a cop car while Attorney General Pam Bondi called Dugan, quote, a criminal judge on a criminal bench and labeled all judges who opposed Trump's immigration crackdown, quote, deranged. And here's border czar Tom Homan talking about the deported children today.

[Dan Pfeiffer]

If you choose to have a US Citizen child, knowing you're in this country legally, you put yourself in that position, you put your family in that position. What we did is remove children with their mothers, who requested the children depart with them. This was a parental decision, Parenting 101. The mothers made that choice. And I tell you what, if we didn't do it, the story today be Trump administration separating families.

[Jon Favreau]

Again, lawyers for the family said the mothers did not make that choice.

[Neera Tanden]

You did separate families.

[Jon Favreau]

But anyway, Tom, so the White House line is basically, these weren't deportations. These were mothers who chose to take their kids with them. You just heard Homan. But the Trump judge in Louisiana said in his ruling basically that he couldn't take that into account until the administration actually proved it in court. What do you guys make of all this, Tommy?

[Neera Tanden]

I mean, I think big picture, it tells you that the process is a rush disaster and the Trump administration doesn't really care. I mean, hear Tom Homan there, he's just so unapologetic about the human suffering involved in this. I think they think it's the price of doing business. It's similar to what we saw with the Venezuelans who were sent to El Salvador, who were just people who had tattoos, who are clearly not members of a gang in 90% of the cases. And, you know, in this case, I mean, you have a father. Apparently ICE threatened to arrest the dad, too. Yeah, and the dad was allowed a one minute conversation with the mom while she was in custody before they were deported. So I mean they're just the, I mean the cruelty is. The point has become a cliche. But clearly they are rushing this process because as we've read there's a goal of deporting 1 million people this year. I think Tom Homan said Today they've deported 138,000 so far. So they're behind schedule and so they're just moving as quickly as they can.

[Jon Lovett]

Yeah, it's a. So in the past look, there are undocumented people who have citizen children. That creates a horrible circumstance if that person is going to be deported. Uh, the way he says it is disgusting. He is pointing at the fact that there is inherent cruelty in any immigration system even when it is operating with compassion and decency as much as it can because there are difficult human questions in our immigration system. But that's why the lack of due process is so evil and awful. These are questions that require humility and compassion and time and attention by people who have the best, have some like modicum of, of, of decency in, in dealing with this. But for them there's just two kinds of people like citizens and trend. And so if, if this is happening to you it's your fucking fault and if we do something cruel it's your fault. There was a, there's a guy that took a wrong turn and if you saw this story it happened I think over the weekend or just before the weekend of somebody took a wrong turn and ended up crossing into Canada.

[Jon Favreau]

It's happening all the time and he.

[Jon Lovett]

Was doing Uber eats and gets picked up. It's not clear if it was purposeful or just in error. But then the family can't find him. Turns out he is in El Salvador even though he wasn't on the record. So they guess they corrected that. And of course the Department of Homeland Security and the spokesperson who is consistently lying throughout this whole process like no trend. Iragua got him and the family's like this is not true and were desperate to get in contact. They only because the New York Times investigated to get this information. And, and I don't know what I've like realizing as just watching all this unfold is how like competence is part of how you show empathy in a society that mistreating people this way, whether it's, whether cruelty is the point. You're just ham fisted morons. Doesn't really matter because they are being so callous and reckless with people's lives.

[Jon Favreau]

Yeah, it just didn't. I mean look, there are, there are tough choices. You have to make when, like you said, there's undocumented immigrants who are getting deported and then they're US citizen children. This was not a case where like they didn't apprehend this woman, either of these women. She went in for a check, they showed up for a check in, right? So there was no danger there. It wasn't like there was criminal conduct there they were worried about. They did not, according to the lawyers, families, and we'll find out in court later. They didn't give the mothers options. They didn't give them time to talk to the fathers or the caregivers or the lawyers. And one mother was pregnant. There was just, there was no reason not to let them contact caregivers or the fathers or anything. There was no reason to do it this fast. There was no reason to do it before the court opened. There was just no reason to do it like this. And now they get into this defensive crouch like they always do, where they're like, oh, do you think we made a mistake? No, fuck them. It's their problem.

[Neera Tanden]

Well, they lie, right? Like Jose Hermosillo, the 19 year old U.S. citizen who was in prison for 10 days by U.S. immigration authorities. It turns out he had a seizure and he went to the hospital and then he saw a border patrol agent and asked that guy for help and then they, they threw him in jail.

[Jon Favreau]

It's.

[Neera Tanden]

And then they. Then Trisha McLaughlin, the DHS spokesman, went online on Twitter and lied and made up this whole story about how he went up to a border patrol agent and claimed to be from Mexico in the country illegally. And it's like this is just the pattern over and over and over again. They do something horrible and they pretend something else happened.

[Jon Favreau]

Also, I feel like you have, if you deported, even if the mother wanted the kid to come, if it's a four year old with cancer and you find that out and you're the government, wouldn't you do something? Wouldn't you, like, make it so that the kid could get his medic, the kid could get their medication or a doctor or something? These people don't fucking give a shit on the Judge Dugan case. It certainly seems like whether or not she broke the law, there wasn't a legal or public safety rationale for frog marching her out of the courtroom and having the FBI director and the Attorney general essentially celebrate the arrest in the media. What did you think of the story? How alarming was it to you? Love it.

[Jon Lovett]

You know, Donald Trump's been arrested and nobody showed up at his house. And Frog marched him out of the door because they understood that he's not a danger in that circumstance, that there's no urgency to this, that you can show some respect and have this person report, clearly, this judge is gonna fight these charges. There was a. The judge was angry that they were even trying to serve this arrest warrant. The judge claiming it was a. They had the wrong kind of warrant. Right. We're gonna learn more about this. Whatever the exact facts turn out to be, this will be a gray area. Even if it's the worst possible version of what fucking Kash Patel is saying, it will be a gray area at best. I can't trust these people or anything that they're saying about it anyway. What is certainly clear is they are excited about the prospect of arresting a judge and sending a message to other judges about, hey, if you're thinking about standing up for an immigrant, that's in your courtroom. That's a dangerous thing to do. You should be really careful about how you do that. You should be worried that if you cross some invisible line that you won't know about till after, till we tell you about it, you might find yourself arrested in front of your courthouse.

[Jon Favreau]

Yeah.

[Neera Tanden]

Tom Homan threatened others today at that press conference at the White House. I mean, it's very clear that these guys, Homan, Stephen Miller, all the hardline immigration folks, they want to fix fights with state and local officials so they can call them soft on immigration or call them sanctuary cities or whatever. And this does seem like it's a shocking escalation. But also, clearly, there was a weird PR rollout that had been planned, right, Because Cash Patel tweets about it, he deletes it, then Pam Bondi tweets about it, and then they push this. They do this big PR push. The story is very weird. The facts are weird. Like, why would a judge help someone who was before her for battery charges get out of the courtroom? You're right. There was no public safety problem because they. The cops immediately arrest the guy the same day, so it's not like he was on the lam. And then they also arrested her at work when she arrived.

[Jon Lovett]

No, that's the public safety problem. Like. Like it was. Yes. And the claim, right, that, oh, she secretly directed him out one door and then another, they got him right then. Like, it didn't lead to any actual negative consequences.

[Jon Favreau]

Clay Higgins, Republican House member, said, I hope they rest 100 more judges. Cool. So member of Congress. I was looking into this because Andrew McCarthy, of all people, is like, a very right Wing, conservative, legal pundit. He was writing in the National Review why it was very bad that they did this, basically. And he said, look, whether she was in. Did the right thing or not, whether she's guilty or not, he's like, the deal is, in Milwaukee and Wisconsin and other places like this, the state judge doesn't necessarily know the person's immigration status that comes to the courtroom for this other trial. And the federal agents didn't tell the judge they were coming. They didn't alert the police. They could have alerted the chief judge ahead of time. They needed to get this guy and, like, make arrangements so they could have, again, if they wanted to get this guy, you call up the local state authorities and be like, hey, there's this guy. He's a danger we're gonna get. You know, didn't do any of that. And state court judges don't necessarily like, federal agents just jumping into their courtrooms and arresting people. Because you're trying these cases in state court. And if people who are supposed to go into state court, whether they're defendants, whether they're testifying, if they know that, like, federal agents can come scoop them up at any time, then they're not gonna come testify for the other cases. Right. So there's a reason not to do this. And the idea that feds can just come in without a federal search warrant. Right. Cause they had an administrative warrant, which is what.

[Jon Lovett]

This is what the judge objected to.

[Tommy Vietor]

Right.

[Jon Favreau]

And this is what she objected to. And again. Right. Like, they ended up getting the guy. And they did. They just. They. This happened, I guess, in the first Trump term as well. There was a judge in Boston who told an undocumented immigrant to go down into the basement. And the difference was they let the judge come in on their own, they didn't arrest them right there. And the charges were eventually dropped. And they had the state disciplinary board deal with it.

[Neera Tanden]

It was like an ethics case.

[Jon Favreau]

Yeah, it was like an ethics. Yeah, exactly.

[Tommy Vietor]

Yeah.

[Jon Lovett]

It's not like they think this judge is, I don't know, danger to the community, flight risk. The judge is out now. Of course. It's ridiculous.

[Jon Favreau]

They love this. They love this. One other big story that Trump is probably less eager to discuss on immigration. On Friday, the administration abandoned its efforts to terminate the legal status of thousands of foreign students. Tommy, what do we know about why they did this and what happens now?

[Neera Tanden]

I mean, it sounds like There are about 100 lawsuits and nearly two dozen court orders blocking them from deporting these people or getting out of the country. And it sounds like ICE was about to have to testify under oath about the process. So maybe that was a concern just on the merits. If the administration cares about that, this likely would precipitate a huge drop in foreign students, which would impact not just school revenue, but the U.S. s ability to get the smartest researchers and the engineers to come here and to learn and to conduct research and do things that are very beneficial to the country. I'm not confident that the administration won't find some other way to punish foreign students. It's not at all clear that this is going to help people like Mahmoud Khalil, who was arrested for peaceful protests over the war in Gaza. By the way, speaking of cruelty, he was denied a request for a two week furlough with an ankle bracelet to be present at the birth of his first child. I said no. But, you know, it does seem like there's reprieve here for a lot of other students.

[Jon Lovett]

Yeah, this reminds. We talked about this early on and about what it looks like for the administration to follow court orders. And following court orders doesn't just mean what you do or don't do after the order has come through. It's all the work that goes into treating the courts with respect and showing up. And they're a little bit like Lucy with the chocolates right now. They do a brazenly illegal move to hundreds, if not thousands of students. Suddenly there's 100 lawsuits. Suddenly there's all these people with very valid claims in front of very angry judges. The Jenner Block case is before a judge and, and the DOJ person's trying to defend this ridiculous order. And actually it's cause of racial discrimination. And the judge is like, what the fuck are you talking about? It's embarrassing. And so they're kind of brushing up. It seems like, look, I do not think they give a fuck about whether or not colleges recruit students from around the world. I think they are thrilled to fuck with colleges and their ability to recruit foreign students. But I do think they are hitting some kind of genuine, like, human capacity limits to pursue all this, like, brazen illegal conduct and then defend it in court.

[Neera Tanden]

Does Lucy have a move with chocolates, too?

[Jon Lovett]

Lucy. So there's Lucy with the football. That's Charlie Brown I'm talking about. Oh, I'm sorry. I love Lucy with the chocolates on the conveyor belts. So they're doing illegal. The chocolates are. I think the chocolates are crimes of some kind, you know, and they're trying. She.

[Neera Tanden]

Or they're Lucy with the construct.

[Jon Lovett]

Yes. No, I hear that. I hear that. Lucy with the chocolates.

[Neera Tanden]

Lucy with the football.

[Jon Favreau]

It seems like what happened here, there may have been AI involved, which is. There's this big database of all the students who have this specific kind of visa. This is the F1 visa. Right. And this is. And so they were not gonna deport them like they did Mahmoud Khalil. Right. That was like the. The Secretary of State. Somehow.

[Neera Tanden]

It's Marco Rubio saying he's a threat to national security.

[Jon Favreau]

Right? Yeah. Somehow that. That's something that the Secretary of State can do. This was. So they all have their legal status in some database. Right. And then they went through. And anyone who's ever had the most minor brush with the law, they just terminated their status.

[Jon Lovett]

Traffic violations.

[Jon Favreau]

So one woman in Connecticut said she was targeted after a dispute over a luggage fee. One was accused of boarding a bus that was out of service. One was cited by police for driving too slowly. So these are the kinds of things that people. And so then they'd go to court, and the judge was like, okay, so. And the DOJ would be like, well, that doesn't necessarily mean they're going to get deported. It's just that they're. They can always challenge it. And they're like, yeah, but what if they just get scooped up? And they're like, well, their status was terminated in the database. But that doesn't necessarily. And so one of the judges, an exasperated U.S. district Judge Ana Rais, this was in the Politico story about this, said, he's either here legally or he's not here legally. There is a yes or no answer here. This is not Schrodinger's visa. Either he's here legally or he's not.

[Neera Tanden]

Nice.

[Jon Favreau]

Like, this is. In the end, I think this is one of the reasons they sort of backed off, because it was. It was.

[Jon Lovett]

This is what I mean.

[Jon Favreau]

But it's just, like, incompetent.

[Jon Lovett]

They can't get in front. These guys have to go to. In front of a judge and defend these indefensible decisions. It reminds me a little. What makes me, like. I think the Tommy's point. It reminds me of when they, in the early days in 2017, did their Muslim ban. It gets thrown out, and then they go back and figure out a way to do it that can, like, pass muster with at least, you know, conservative judges.

[Jon Favreau]

Yeah.

[Jon Lovett]

And that. That's what they're doing here. They're gonna go back and trying to figure out a way to do this.

[Jon Favreau]

Yeah.

[Neera Tanden]

I think that's right. But I also do think this is exactly what they did with the Venezuelans they sent to El Salvador, which was they pulsed the ICE database for anyone somehow connected to Trend Aragua. And it found people who just had tattoos or like, wore a bull's jersey.

[Tommy Vietor]

And.

[Neera Tanden]

And the problem there is the damage is done, and these people are now rotting in hell in an El Salvador prison.

[Jon Lovett]

Or people that just happen to have been touching the immigration system at the moment where they were getting beat down by their boss to go find people.

[Jon Favreau]

Right? Pod Save America is brought to you by books. Mother's Day is almost here. And just think about. Think about how much you. You want to give your mother a wonderful Mother's Day because of all that she's done for you in your entire life. I know my mom is. I'm very grateful for my mom.

[Jon Lovett]

If only there was some way you could do it easily. Send someone flowers, beautiful flowers. But there isn't.

[Jon Favreau]

Wait a minute.

[Jon Lovett]

Wait a minute.

[Jon Favreau]

Wait.

[Jon Lovett]

Wait just a second.

[Jon Favreau]

Stop right there.

[Jon Lovett]

Hey, wait a second.

[Jon Favreau]

My mom does everything to make me happy, so I'm returning the favor. This year, I'm sending happy flowers for a happy Mother's Day from the Boox company. That is short for bouquet. Did you know that?

[Jon Lovett]

Is that what it's short for?

[Jon Favreau]

Yeah, that's what it says right here. And we got you 25% off your order, so you can send some happy, too. Bouques aren't just any flowers. Their flowers are cut fresh from the best farm. So they're bigger, brighter, and last way longer. Some even grow on the side of a volcano.

[F]

What?

[Jon Favreau]

Wow. Wow. Mom with a bright happy bouquet. Or go for the Bouque's flower subscription so she gets fresh blooms and major joy on repeat. It's easy. I picked my bouquet and delivery date and I'm already done. And with 25% off, why stop with mom? Grab some for your wife, aunt, and grandma too, Or, I don't know, anyone else. Maybe there's other people in your life that you want. Whoever you'd like to.

[Jon Lovett]

Someone.

[Jon Favreau]

Look, guys, you can't forget Mom. Mother's Day is May 11th. Go to boox.com, use my promo code CROOKED for 25% off. That's B O U Q S.com, promo code CROOKED. Boox promo code CROOKED.

[Dan Pfeiffer]

With a home equity investment from HomeTab, you get access to your home equity in cash without monthly payments to use for whatever you'd like, from paying off debt to making renovations or Handling emergency expenses, receive your funds in just a few weeks, start pursuing your financial goals and start getting more out of life. See if you pre qualify for an [e-mail] Subject to eligibility, terms and conditions apply. That's hometap.com.

[Jon Favreau]

So here we are at 100 days, which is a completely made up milestone in every President's four year term that gives an administration the chance to talk about its accomplishments. Media is a chance to do some retrospectives and if they're lucky, get an interview with the President. Pollsters get a chance to put out a bunch of new polls. Trump's doing a rally in Michigan on Tuesday night. He'll also be sitting for an interview with ABC News. He's already done big interviews with Time magazine. Another with our friends Ashley Parker and Michael Scher at the Atlantic. That one posted on Monday morning as we were getting ready for this recording. You guys have moments from the Time or Atlantic interviews you want to talk about that stood out to you as either newsy or at least noteworthy.

[Jon Lovett]

I mean, first of all, gee, the time one, there's one thing that it just sucks to sort of sink into a Trump interview because it's just sand through your, through your hands. But I did wanna note that he basically says when he's talking about the law firms that the law firms going along with these deals, and these are smart people, they went along with these deals cuz they know they did something wrong. And I just hope the people that made those deals feel pretty proud of themselves that now he's just basically saying, look, these guys are copping to it.

[Jon Favreau]

That's what happened here in the Atlantic. One, he did something similar about with the, with the media people. Like he was talking about Bezos, but with them he was like, at some point you just keep going, you keep pushing, you keep pushing. And then they say no mas, no mas.

[Neera Tanden]

You know, the first kind of hundred. This person who raised up 100 days milestone, who is it?

[Jon Favreau]

FDR?

[Neera Tanden]

FDR? Yeah, nice, John.

[Jon Lovett]

Good trivia. Another great president who served more than two terms.

[Neera Tanden]

Yeah, I mean a couple from the Time magazine. One when he's talked about the Supreme Court's ruling on Abrego Garcia, they read the language from the ruling that's like the order properly requires the government to facilitate Abrego Garcia's release from custody in El Salvador. And they say, are you facilitating his release? Trump ducks the question. He's like, I leave that to my lawyers. I give them no instructions. You know, they feel the order says something different than what you're saying. So it just. It reminds you that if he's going to defy the Supreme Court, it's not gonna be openly, bravely. It's gonna be through bureaucratic bullshit like that and cowardice also.

[Jon Favreau]

That is gonna. He then says, yeah, I mean, I'm for bringing him back and doing it here the right way, but I'll leave it to my lawyer. So, like, even him acknowledging that he's willing to bring him back, that is going to fuck him in these court hearings. Because now the Supreme Court's gonna be like, all right, we said, you must facilitate his release. You must take steps to facilitate his release. And then the President just told a reporter that he's fine with that. But you jokers are refusing to do that.

[Neera Tanden]

The Attorney General.

[Jon Favreau]

Yeah, that's not gonna work so well in court, I don't think. Yeah, that, to me, was one of the big takeaways from the two. From the two issues.

[Jon Lovett]

I agree. No, I agree. And there was something strange about that.

[Jon Favreau]

Right.

[Jon Lovett]

Because the court has already ordered him to do it, whether he wants to do it or not. So it's almost like. It's almost beside the point whether he wants to do it or not. Unless he's trying to push it onto his underlings for failing to do it, which, of course, is something he'll be interested in doing.

[Neera Tanden]

He's leaving it to Pam, as Steven Miller would say. He also promises to veto any bill that cuts Social Security, Medicare, and Medicaid. So file that one away.

[Jon Favreau]

Except fraud and abuse.

[Neera Tanden]

Everything's gonna be fraud, and absolutely everything's fraud and abuse. He's asked about promising to end the war in Ukraine on day one, and Trump now says he meant it, quote, figuratively, as an exaggeration and in jest. So your classic joke about a war that you are also saying is going to lead to World War Three. And then when the interviewer suggests he was kidding about annexing Canada and just trolling them, he says, actually, no, I'm not.

[Jon Favreau]

Repeatedly. The other thing I took from the Atlantic piece is he is not backing down on the tariffs in this trade war. Because Scherer at one point asks him, you know, folks on Wall street are calling. They're calling it the Trump put. And they're saying that if things get bad enough and the market's bad enough, the economy looks like it's going to a recession, that you will pull back on the tariffs because you don't want the economy to go into recession. Is there any truth to that? And Trump's like, no, no. He's like, look, I've been talking about this stuff for 30, 40 years and this could have been. I could have been easy. I could have came in here, I could have not done the tariff stuff and just had everything be fine. But I think this is important to do and so I'm doing it.

[Jon Lovett]

Yeah. It's so hard to figure out what's going on with their obvious because they don't have a long term plan. Like what their long term plan is on tariffs. If he is ever going to relieve them, he can't say that he's going to do it. He's also making ridiculous claims about how much tax revenue will come from these tariffs and claiming it's gonna be able to reduce income taxes or get rid of the income tax, which is absurd on its face. And it can't do both. It can't restore American manufacturing and replace income taxes because they're in trust purposes. So I just think he's just full of shit on the top.

[Neera Tanden]

I think he's full of shit too. I think what'll happen is they'll try to negotiate some sort of memorandum of understanding with the non China countries that suggests there's a trade agreement. It won't be a real trade agreement because real trade agreements involve caring about the details and those take years and they'll kind of muddle through that way. The big question to me is what happens with the China piece of this? Because Xi Jinping ain't backing down. If Trump doesn't want to back down, it's going to cause some serious problems in the long run.

[Jon Favreau]

Yeah, this is my issue with this, is that like I'm sure Besant is and the people who don't want a global economic meltdown are pushing this. Like we're going to get some parameters of a deal and then he'll back off. So fine, he backs off the reciprocal tariffs.

[Neera Tanden]

Like the China piece.

[Jon Favreau]

The China piece is still there. We still have a 10% universal tariff for everywhere else. Even without the reciprocal tariffs, you still have the 25% on Canada and Mexico. And so we're still a couple weeks out from really experiencing like the full effects or at least the start to experiencing the effects of the trade war, like empty shelves and higher prices.

[Neera Tanden]

The rare earth minerals piece is the biggest, scariest part.

[Jon Favreau]

Yeah, like this is all, this is all a couple of weeks away. And the idea that we're just gonna announce a couple deals or sub deals, as they were called over the weekend by some people in the administration and that everything's gonna be fine. Like, yeah, maybe the markets rally for a little bit, but that's not gonna. Like, we are headed for some bad economic times here.

[Jon Lovett]

It's also just very silly that. Like that. Okay, look, Trump, the United States has power and economic might. We have leverage on our relationship with China. China has its power and its leverage and its. And its might that it can wield in this kind of a negotiation. But, like, do you think you're gonna wait him out? Do you think you can wait out? Do you think Donald Trump has the discipline to wait out China? Have you read anything about China and how it works over time? Like, how long, historically, they play a long game, how long their dynasties are? You think Donald Trump, the most impatient and undisciplined man, you don't think they're smart enough to know that they can hold out longer than Donald fucking Trump?

[Jon Favreau]

I gotta say, I think you got two very stubborn authoritarians sitting there. And the one thing I got from the full Atlantic interview, this guy, he does not give a shit. He really is at a point in his life where he's like, everything's, you know, I came back from. He thinks that he came back from the dead, although he doesn't like to call it a comeback, he said, because he thinks he was never really gone, but he basically thinks he has defied political gravity. And what's worse, the people around him are all people who believe he is chosen by God and has defied political gravity. Well, he was, and. Right, of course. And so none of them are gonna pull him back either, except poor Scott Bessant, who's, like, hoping that we don't have a global economic collapse. So I really do think, look, he's Donald Trump. At some point, he pulls back. How much damage there is, who knows? But I think in general, whether it's tariffs or anything else, he is going to go much further than he ever has in the past because he does not care as much about public opinion as he ever did.

[Jon Lovett]

Yeah. Oh, I think that's. First of all, I think that's already true. He's already gone further than he did in his first term. Now, I have no idea whether or not Donald Trump will cave. I just think. I don't think he'll show the same patience as the nation of China.

[Neera Tanden]

Yeah, I think the Chinese, you know, Xi Jinping has prepared his people for a war, and the American people are not at all prepared for what a war with China could look like, what it means if we have zero rare earth Minerals. That means we can't produce cars anymore. If 99% of child safety seats are coming from China and you can't like travel with your kid anymore because your car seats too small or buy them toys. 95% of cooking appliances, 93% of coloring books for kids, 88% of microwave ovens, like, yeah, 70% of toys intended for children under 12 are from China. Like, Americans are going to squeal if this shit really happens. And I do think political gravity will come for Trump because he has a Congress unlike the Chinese Communist Party.

[Jon Lovett]

Yeah, yeah. I think when people started going to Walmart instead of church on Christmas, it really, really made having stuff on the shelves important.

[Jon Favreau]

It's true. Let's talk about the polls, which are much worse for Trump than they were even a few weeks ago. Certainly worse than they've been for any other president at this point. I think his average approval rating is now tied with his first term approval rating at 100 days. New Times Siena poll has Trump at 42:54. He's underwater on every issue. Immigration by 4 points, the Abrego Garcia case specifically by 21 points, and the economy by 12 points. ABC Washington Post has him at 42:55. CNN's 4357, Pew 40:59. Fox is 44:55 and AP is 3959. Trump's numbers with young people, independents and Hispanics are pretty abysmal after he made inroads with all those groups in the last election. And most of the slide has to do with people's feelings about the economy and their own personal finances, which are bad. Any thoughts on the polling here?

[Jon Lovett]

There's one number from the Harvard poll that jumped out, which is, I think 59% of young men now disapprove of Trump. So he's lost the boys.

[Neera Tanden]

Tough.

[Jon Lovett]

The vibe shift has shifted back.

[Neera Tanden]

Let's hope it's abysmal. The numbers are abysmal. I mean, ABC News had him with the lowest 100 day approval rating of any president in the past 80 years, and the second lowest was him last time. And it's funny just because the narrative around his presidency in 2017 was that it felt very weak and unsteady because he shouldn't have been elected. And it was a shock to everybody and they were just getting up to speed. And the narrative after this election was how much stronger he was politically, how much more overwhelming the victory was. And now he's in worse shape politically.

[Jon Favreau]

Put that away.

[Neera Tanden]

Yeah. So it's just good to remember this guy's not 10ft tall.

[Jon Favreau]

He never. And he also, by the way, in the first term, he never really recovered from the 100 day mark. Like, it only got, I mean, it was in a narrow band from like, you know, 39 to 43, 44. And then he lost. Not by much, but he lost. It's also interesting. Most people, including those who voted for him, think he's gone too far. That's like the theme of the New York Times Siena Poll is that even people who there's still like a slight majority support for deporting undocumented immigrants, but they just don't like the way he's doing it because of Abreco Garcia, because of other things they've heard, because of defying court orders. I also thought it was one of the more hopeful parts of the New York Times Siena poll was they asked about support for deporting citizens to El Salvador, US Citizens who were convicted of crimes to El Salvador. And they asked about whether you support him defying the Supreme Court. And Nate Cohen was saying he had almost 0% on those Supreme Court defying the Supreme Court. 6% would approve of that. 6. You don't get that for anything anymore.

[Neera Tanden]

No.

[Jon Lovett]

That is heartening. That is heartening. And it is the. I mean, you see them, this is why I think the public opinion matters. You see them backing off in certain places. And that is because I think courts will be more confident when they feel like public support is behind them. And Trump will be more weak and afraid of the consequences of violating court orders when the public are so thoroughly behind the courts. It is interesting thinking about 2017 versus now, because chaos was the kind of order of the day when Trump first won and he was at his lowest ebb when he was actually almost. It didn't come through because of John McCain, but he was on the precipice of repealing Obamacare. And it was a moment where he was about to be effective. And when he was about to be effective, he was never more unpopular. And I do think the early days, we were, I think, caught off guard by the swiftness. And I think word effective is wrong. But the speed and deliberateness with which they were like attacking the government, going after immigrants, kind of implementing the 2025 Project 2025 agenda. But he's actually paying for that success. He's paying for the lack, because chaos stopped him from doing the policies that we are currently seeing that the American people, even though it's very clear that this is what Trump has always said he was going to do were not fully. Couldn't fully imagine what it would feel like to live under.

[Neera Tanden]

Yeah, I think that's right. And I also think, you know, deciding to tank the stock market, not a great political strategy. I mean, I think 73% said the economy is in bad shape. 53% said it's worse. Since Trump took office, 41% said their own finances have worsened. 62% said prices are rising. So they're doing a ton of shit. They're dojing, they're harming migrants, et cetera. But they're doing nothing to deal with inflation. And the tariffs are just actively causing inflation. And no one, only 31% believe that they'll strengthen the economy long term. Like 64% of people disapprove of the tariffs. So the American people are not buying what he's selling on the theory of the case here.

[Jon Favreau]

Yeah, and he did act fast and he did do a lot. But the Times asked people for like a word to describe the first hundred days and chaos was still the order of the day.

[Jon Lovett]

It's his essence.

[Jon Favreau]

It is his essence. Question on the polling. Guy can't run for reelection despite selling Trump 2028 merch on his website. How much do you think the polling matters?

[Jon Lovett]

I talked to Ro Khanna on Love or Leave it about what the prospects are for reconciliation and he basically said he never had felt more confident or hopeful. I don't think he would say he's confident, but more confident that they'd be able to get enough Republicans to say no, at least before they strip out certain parts. Who knows where it leads. But I do think it matters because he has a razor thin majority and there are a lot of Republicans who would like to stay in Congress and there are a lot of them in districts that right now they are going to have a very hard time successfully getting reelected in. And I just think that is going to affect their ability to pass this agenda. He was much stronger a couple weeks ago. He was much. And that's why you saw today he posted on Truth Social like they should arrest the people disturbing these town halls because it's creating the illusion that there isn't incredible unity and love amongst Republicans. And I think he's feeling the heat there and I think it's making his job much harder.

[Neera Tanden]

Yeah, we want the vulnerable Republicans to feel like they can defy him. And when they're doing some calculus, like are my war worried about a primary challenge or a general election, we want them to fear the general election more. Now the problem is, you know, he sells the North Korean numbers with the Republican base so he can fuck with them in the primary.

[Jon Favreau]

The. The timeline isn't good for him either. Thune said today that he doesn't think this thing is getting done till like later in the summer. And also. But he's had a moving target because of when the debt ceiling. When we hit the debt ceiling, we run out of money, just in case we need another crisis. So as the effects from the trade war start to hit and the economy gets even worse and people get even angrier, then we're gonna have a debate in Congress about how big a tax cut is that goes mostly to rich people. And cutting Medicare and cutting Medicare and cutting Medicaid. And they've already now ruled out a tax increase on the rich. You know, which, like, Steve Bannon wanted and Trump was floating. And some of these, some of the populists wanted.

[Jon Lovett]

There was like a 40 hour window.

[Jon Favreau]

40 hour, yeah.

[Jon Lovett]

When that was on the table.

[Jon Favreau]

So that's not on the table. So now. And they also have to do something on taxes. Cause otherwise everyone's taxes goes up at the end of the year, at which time we'll probably already be in a. We could be in a recession. Right. I don't know how this. I don't know how this goes.

[Jon Lovett]

The other side of this is there are a bunch of Republicans that just signed a letter about not wanting to cut Medicaid, Right? And so let's say they strip. Now, I don't think it's inconceivable that they strip out the Medicaid cuts and just try to do a tax cut there. But one of the only places where even Freedom Caucus members have bucked Trump is when it came to raising the deficit. They sincerely believe, and they believe they care about it as much as they care about pleasing Donald Trump. It's one of the only issues and the only group of people that do this in the Republican Party that they don't want to vote for increased deficits. If you lose those guys, you don't have a bill. You don't have it.

[Jon Favreau]

So I think it. I think it fucks up his congressional agenda. And it makes life pretty. The polling makes life pretty bad for Republicans. I also hope that this kind of polling emboldens more people to speak out against him. Colleges, media, business, whatever you thought about Trump at the beginning, how strong he was, how scary this was like, it's just he's not there now, and you should not feel that same fear. I also wonder if. Look, I know courts are Just. They're just calling balls and strikes. Judges are just calling balls and strikes. But you gotta imagine if you're in the Supreme Court or some of these courts and you're thinking what the administration is doing is unlawful or unconstitutional, and it comes before you, you're a little less nervous about making the ruling you wanna make when the numbers are like this.

[Jon Lovett]

Oh, absolutely, absolutely.

[Jon Favreau]

You know, so that's how regular Americans say they're feeling. How are you guys feeling being irregular Americans?

[Jon Lovett]

Honestly, I've never been less regular, frankly, under the trumpet.

[Jon Favreau]

Also, just a. A couple days on the road.

[Neera Tanden]

I know, I know.

[Jon Lovett]

Time zone changes. I wish I was a regular American. I'm go see the Dahmeo. Got to figure out a new kind of smoothie in the morning. Join my fellow regular Americans.

[Jon Favreau]

We're sitting in the airport waiting to go home. Love it. Take out just a. Just a bottle of those fiber gummies.

[Jon Lovett]

You bet. You fucking bet we do.

[Jon Favreau]

And I started laughing, but then I said, yeah, I'll take a couple. Yeah, yeah, I'll take a couple.

[Jon Lovett]

Tommy didn't want one. Tommy didn't want one. Tommy's too cool for the fiber gummies. At the Delta Lounge.

[Jon Favreau]

I was just trying to make it.

[Neera Tanden]

Through a hangover at 45 for I.

[Jon Lovett]

Don'T think fiber hurts. I don't think fiber hurts.

[Jon Favreau]

Anyway, what are your takes on how consequential these 14 weeks have been? Oh, it's a question I wrote down here.

[Neera Tanden]

It's been consequent. I mean, it's been a historically damaging 100 days. Right. There's no way to sugarcoat it. Like millions of people are going to die because the USAID cuts. God knows what RFK Jr is doing behind the scenes. But the stuff he's talking about publicly.

[Jon Favreau]

We haven't had time to talk about him. We got to devote a whole segment to that.

[Neera Tanden]

Yeah, he's just going to gut public health. He's going to cherry pick data. He's, you know, demagoguing anybody with autism. I mean, it's just really terrible stuff. Yet corporations folding left and right. We're seeing the weaponization of the Department of Justice to punish law firms, news outlets, former Trump officials. I'm also worried that the. The tariff war has set in motion some economic changes that will be impossible to walk back and will be very damaging too. But so I'm like, on some level, it's heartening to know that the polling has collapsed, at least for this amount of time, because voters don't want chaos. They don't want the stock market crashing. They don't like the deportations. Despite everyone's concern that Democrats are offsides on immigration, they actually think these deportations are cruel and over the top. But I'm also worried that it's not gonna stop him.

[Jon Favreau]

I had the exact feeling, which is like, I think that the polling is gonna get worse for Trump and Republicans, and I think the damage is gonna get worse because I think that they're not backing down. Like, there's one scenario where the polling gets really bad and they all back down, or they just. Then I guess, what, we have, like, a semi normal administration for the next couple years where they just, like. That doesn't seem like Trump to me. So then the other thing they do if the polling gets worse is they double down like they've been doing so far, or they never show weakness, never apologize. And then we're in a situation where the country is very angry and the economy's bad, and we have crises that we're dealing with here and all over the world, and then the Trump administration decides to, like, use all the power they have to crack down even more. So that's what I'm sort of worried about.

[Jon Lovett]

Yeah. I think, like, you have to start and just say, he is doing a lot of damage. He is hurting a lot of people. There are people that will die, that would have lived. I mean, he is. And that destruction can't be undone. There's no pretending it didn't happen. We will be digging out of this for a long time internationally. We will be digging out of this for a long time, though. Like, I want to believe in, like, the resilience of the American economy and the unique place we have as, like, an innovative and kind of creative country that contributes so much to the world that we can repair the damage. But to me, like, the core question from the day Trump won is, is Donald Trump's second victory a door that locked behind us? Right. Like, the damage can't be undone, but we can kind of rebuild and repair if we can win.

[Jon Favreau]

Right.

[Jon Lovett]

We can take back the House, take back the Senate, take back the White House. I do worry about what happens if the economy gets worse, the chaos gets worse. That's a tinderbox. It's people in the streets and an authoritarian president.

[Jon Favreau]

That is, he's already unhappy with people at town halls.

[Jon Lovett]

Already unhappy with town halls. You had Stephen Miller out there today criticizing J.B. pritzker, suggesting that what he's doing is inciting violence just for calling for protest.

[Jon Favreau]

Right.

[Jon Lovett]

Like, it is dangerous These are people that are, they are instinctively fascist, they are instinctively authoritarian. That is incredibly dangerous. But one sign of, to me at least, hope is just, I think even the past couple of weeks we've seen Democrats starting to get their legs under them a little bit in a lot of interesting ways. You could talk about Pete, you could talk about Pritzker, you could talk about Ro Khanna, talk about a bunch of people, Cory Booker, others. And I did have this feeling in the first like few weeks of the Trump administration of a kind of like, like defeatism, like, oh, he's turning us into Hungary, he's turning us into to Russia. And I really was like looking for more leaders to say but, but don't like, we'll have to fight that and we'll win because America is filled with Americans and we're a rebellious and freedom loving and democracy loving bunch. And maybe we're a little bit, we're a little soft and a little decadent. But like, we'll find our footing and we'll fight back and we'll win and he can't take this country from us. And I feel like that energy is starting to appear more and more. You see it at protests, you see it at people showing up at rallies and town halls. And so that has made me feel like the question like, is the door, did the door lock behind us? I think the answer is still no.

[Jon Favreau]

Pod Save America is brought to you by Stamps.com Stamps. We've been using Stamps.com from the beginning. From the beginning, basically when we were just a couple people who didn't have time to go to the fucking post office.

[Jon Lovett]

We were children. We were in a. It was a simpler time, we thought. It was not a simpler time. We thought it was a complicated time. No boy, Wrong boy. That was the simple time.

[Jon Favreau]

We could all. We could tell. Tell the US of 2017.

[Jon Lovett]

That's bad. Wait till he. That guy's gonna figure out how to do puzzles. Here's what that guy's gonna learn how to unlock the doors.

[Jon Favreau]

Here's what hasn't changed. We're still using stamps.com flexibility in your workday means you can decide when and where to invest your time. Like focusing on the important parts of the business that only you can do. With stamps.com, tedious tasks like sending certified mail, invoices, checks or documents and packages can be done on your time, not someone else's. Stamps.com simplifies your postage needs and adds valuable flexibility back into your workday. Stamps.com handles all your mailing and shipping needs wherever, whenever. Access all the USPS and UPS services you need to run your business right from your computer or phone anytime, day or night. No lines, no traffic, no waiting. All you need is your computer and printer. They even send you a free scale. Easily package pickups through your stamps.com dashboard. No more tedious postage. Math Rate Advisor helps you calculate the best shipping rates and fast get rates you won't see anywhere else, like up to 88% off. USPS and UPS have more flexibility in your life with stamps.com sign [e-mail] and use code Cricut for a special offer that includes a four week trial plus free postage and a free digital scale. No long term commitments or contracts, just go to stamps.com code crooked with a.

[Dan Pfeiffer]

Home Equity Investment from Home tab you get access to your home equity in cash without monthly payments to use for whatever you'd like, from paying off debt to making renovations or handling emergency expenses. Receive your funds in just a few weeks, start pursuing your financial goals and start getting more out of life. See if you pre qualify for an [e-mail] subject to eligibility. Terms and conditions apply. That's hometap.com.

[Jon Favreau]

So let's talk about fighting back and sort of the general state of the opposition. At 100 days we do have some reassuring updates about what Democrats, media outlets, universities and law firms are doing to fight back against Trump. To start with the politicians on Sunday, Senator Cory Booker and House Democratic Leader Hakeem Jeffries held a 12 hour sit in on the Capitol steps to protest the Republican budget. Meanwhile, Illinois Governor J.B. pritzker, a 2028 presidential hopeful, gave a barn burner of a speech in New Hampshire. Why New Hampshire, I wonder? Let's listen.

[Dan Pfeiffer]

Fellow Democrats, for far too long we've been guilty of listening to a bunch of do nothing political types who would tell you that America's house is not on fire even as the flames were licking their faces. Time to stop wondering if you can trust the nuclear codes to people who don't know how to organize a group chat. It's time to stop ignoring the hypocrisy and wearing a big gold cross while announcing the defunding of children's cancer research. Never before in my life have I called for mass protests, for mobilization, for disruption. But I am now. These Republicans cannot know a moment of peace. They have to understand that we will fight their cruelty with every megaphone and microphone that we have. We must castigate them on the soapbox and then punish them at the ballot Box.

[Jon Favreau]

Okay. Side note, if you guys listening out there want to heed Pritzker's call to mobilize, you can find events and actions near you by visiting Vote Save America dot com. And they're all peaceful protests. No inciting violence like Stephen Miller assuming claimed today. Yeah. What did you guys think of Pritzker's message?

[Jon Lovett]

I really liked the speech. I really did. You know, the part you played. I know. I'm sure yours had a little bit of a little sing songy. Yeah, yeah, I'm sure. A little bit. But I thought it was great. I actually really liked a lot of it. One part, One section that I thought is worth looking at is the way he handled immigration because he was so strong on due process, on the inhumanity of some of these deportations, while talking about what we actually need to be for unabashedly. There was a lot of places in there where I thought, like, the rhetoric wasn't as sanded down as you would hear from Democrats in the past. And there was a part where he talked about one reason Democrats lost is not because Democrats don't have the right values, but because the American people just don't see Democrats as the kind of people that will fight for them. And I really liked it. And it was a turn into this section that you played. And on the whole, I just. I hadn't seen him give a speech like that before. And to me, like, the two best speeches I've heard lately was this speech and the speech Ro Khanna gave at Yale, which is a much more kind of cerebral and academic and philosophical speech, but putting them side by side, I thought, like. Oh, like, there's an interesting kind of broad message there that I really liked.

[Jon Favreau]

What'd you think, Tommy?

[Neera Tanden]

Did you guys feel like a lot of this was a pretty. Not that thinly veiled shot of Chuck Schumer?

[Jon Favreau]

Oh, I was picking.

[Neera Tanden]

You kept talking about Democrats who hoped that one day Republicans would come to their senses, which Schumer famously talked about in that New York Times interview around the cave, the budget cave.

[Jon Favreau]

So I thought Newsom Newsome. I thought Whitmer. And then I thought it was just a general, like, you know, Obama, Biden, years, the fever's gonna break kind of thing. Like, it was like a sort of.

[Neera Tanden]

Yeah.

[Jon Favreau]

Vague shot at all that.

[Neera Tanden]

Yeah, we were shadowboxing. A lot of straw men.

[Jon Favreau]

There was.

[Neera Tanden]

That's, you know.

[Jon Favreau]

Yeah. You know, it's funny. I'm doing what I told myself I didn't want to do, which is, like, I watched the speech And I'm like, I could pick apart a lot of different parts of the speech. And some of it is like, as a speechwriter, some of it is like, what do you actually mean by that?

[Jon Lovett]

Yeah, no, I know.

[Jon Favreau]

I know the straw man thing. And then some of it was, you know, for a speech where you're supposed to be like, we just gotta say what we believe, it does feel like a lot of rhetorical lines that are. You do to get applause. But overall, I'm like, good for him for fucking getting out there and saying something.

[Neera Tanden]

Yeah, I want to be. I actually liked it. I mean, like, I watched 30 minute long speech and it made me feel good. And I was like, oh, this guy's a fighter and he's not pulling punches. He's calling RFK Jr. Nepo Baby. And Pete Hegseth, a washed up Fox TV commentator who drank too much and committed sexual assault. Like, this was red meat.

[Jon Favreau]

A weird, weird Nepo baby that threw the Baron is Trump.

[Neera Tanden]

These are like fun lines designed to.

[Jon Favreau]

Rev up a crowd.

[Neera Tanden]

It's a great speech to, you know, hit the primary trail. I thought he did well, and I thought it was a call to arms. I like when he said, as a Jew, like, stop tearing down the Constitution in the name of my ancestors.

[Jon Favreau]

That was great.

[Jon Lovett]

That was very.

[Neera Tanden]

Because when the pendulum swings back, you'll contribute to the climate of retribution, I think was the line. So I thought there's a lot of interesting points he made. The language was. Was tough, but quotable and made news. And I liked it.

[Jon Lovett]

Yeah, that was my only. It's funny that you brought because I actually thought it was directed more at Newsom. I didn't think of Schumer. And then I like, sense that when I was getting to the. To the. When he was talking about the Democrats, he was critiquing, that was like my. I was like, well, these are applause lines about a kind of Democrat anybody would hate. But, like, who. Who do you mean? And what is it? What does it look like to do something different? But I think that's what the next few months are about.

[Jon Favreau]

It also made me think of, like, you know, we'll get to that point, a primary debate stage, and he's gonna be the one that makes a lot of the other Democrats on that stage feel uncomfortable because he's not gonna let them get away with not going hard at Trump and Republicans. And I think you need that kind of person in a primary for sure. And we certainly need that kind of leader right now. Just who's gonna call out the bullshit. It's interesting. Like, we, you know, we were talking over the weekend about Pete's three and a half hour conversation on the Flagrant podcast with Andrew Schultz. And it's just such a different style. But like, Pete did a really great job in that interview. Totally different than Pritzker, totally different than a lot of these other candidates that we talked about. So I kind of like seeing everyone out there doing something different.

[Jon Lovett]

Yeah. And speaking of just like, what has made the last, even as things have been so terrible, what has made me feel at least some glimmer of hope? It is people have asked, well, who do you think the next generation of leaders are? Who's the next one? Who's the next one? And like, it's not, they're not going to come out of an egg. Like, they're going to come through what we get to see. And like, what we've seen is like, really interesting stuff. We've seen Cory Booker on the floor. We've seen Van Hollen go to El Salvador. I like what Roe's doing. I like the speech by Pritzker. I like seeing what Pete's doing. And it's sort of leadership is as leadership does. And I'm like heartened by the Pritzker speech.

[Jon Favreau]

There are also encouraging signs from various institutions. Wall Street Journal reports that a group of about 10 schools, including the Ivies and the major research schools, is coordinating behind the scenes to make sure no one else folds like Columbia did. Love it. You mentioned Jenner and Block, one of the law firms that refused to capitulate to Trump. How they were in court and they were asking a federal judge on Monday to permanently block Trump's executive order targeting them. The judge hasn't issued a ruling yet, but he's a George W. Bush judge. Seemed pretty hostile to the government's case, shouting, give me a break. To the DOJ lawyer who attempted to justify blocking Jenner employees from all federal.

[Jon Lovett]

Buildings based on the fact that Jenner and Block had DEI policies. That's sort of. It was like you said, that they.

[Jon Favreau]

Claim they the reason that it's okay for the administration to block them from federal buildings is because they are racist. Oh, yeah.

[Neera Tanden]

Because they know that.

[Jon Lovett]

And that the order can't be illegal because what the order says is this order must follow applicable law.

[Jon Favreau]

Yeah, that's right. Also, we've talked a lot on the show about the Trump lawsuit and pressure campaign against 60 Minutes, whose executive producer, Bill Owens resigned last week out of concern that Paramount might cave to Trump in order to Win approval for a merger. If you were wondering how the rest of the team feels about it, Scott Pelley ended Sunday night 60 Minutes broadcast with this.

[Dan Pfeiffer]

Bill resigned Tuesday. It was hard on him and hard on us, but he did it for us and you. Stories we pursued for 57 years are often controversial lately. The Israel, Gaza war and the Trump administration. Bill made sure they were accurate and fair. He was tough that way. But our parent company, Paramount, is trying to complete a merger. The Trump administration must approve it. Paramount began to supervise our content in new ways. None of our stories has been blocked. But Bill felt he lost the independence that honest journalism requires. No one here is happy about it. But in resigning, Bill proved one thing. He was the right person to lead 60 minutes all along.

[Jon Favreau]

Tick, tick, tick, tick, tick. As angry as Scott Pelley gets, really? What do you think? Hopeful signs there?

[Neera Tanden]

No, to me, that's a very not hopeful sign. I mean, good for Bill Owens. It takes some courage and guts to resign like that. But I think to me, it was a sign that Trump successfully used the leverage he has as president to block this merger to at least dissuade critical reporting or at least drive someone who's good at the job out. And also, if CBS News gets sold to Skydance, I think David Ellison is notionally in control, but his father, Larry Ellison, I think is seen as like, really controlling things behind the scenes. David's a big Dem donor, Larry's a Republican donor. So I don't know what that means for the future politics of the parent company, but I think this is a just dark, kind of scary moment for media.

[Jon Lovett]

Yeah, it's the son of Fred Trump with a pressure campaign against the daughter of Sumner Redstone in a fight with the son of Larry Ellison. It is a Nepo baby conflagration. I do think that between, I mean, you see why he undid the cuts to the Social Security office, but if Trump fucks with Medicare, Social Security payments and 60 minutes, they will do to Washington what the British did in 1815. I mean, it's just not. You can't do this. You can't do these people. People watch every weekend. They've been watching over 40 years.

[Jon Favreau]

I thought it was good that Scott Pelli said something.

[Jon Lovett]

Oh, yeah, no, it was, it's.

[Jon Favreau]

And that Bill Owens did.

[Dan Pfeiffer]

It's great.

[Jon Favreau]

Oh, it's obviously a bad. Bad. It's obviously bad. Courageously bad. That is happening.

[Neera Tanden]

Cowards as corporations, you know.

[Jon Favreau]

Yeah. And Dan and I talked about this on the last pod. But like the corporate media side of this is not where. Is not where we're going to find the, the real heroes. I'm glad the colleges are finally banding together. That, that some are finally banding together. Good for Jenner and Block. I, I think that the executive orders on the law firms are ridiculous. And they're like, if they're not going to get laughed out of the courtroom, judges are going to yell like they did today. Like, they're, they're not going to hold up. So the law firms that capitulated are going to be like, what the fuck are we doing? So I think that's good. But I do think on the, on the corporate media side, you know, these people, we were saying on Friday, like, the, for a lot of these big companies, the media outlets are a rounding error in their, in their business. And so they're not going to feel like they need to really stand up for it.

[Jon Lovett]

Yeah, jbl, the Bulwark wrote a piece about this kind of. I really, it really kind of stuck with me about the Pascal's Wager of the Trump years, which is basically, if you think Republicans will seek political retribution, but you think Democrats are too good of people to ever do that, it creates a terrible incentive because you just go along with Republicans because you'll never pay a price. And I do think we need to be. And that's what he talked about in this piece, that we need to be thinking about what it looks like for us to make clear that, like, we're watching what's happening here and capitulating to Trump in order to get a merger through. Well, that's a merger to reexamine. Right. Like, there are ways in which we need to be signaling that, like, going along with this. And the matter is that Trump's becoming less popular, too, because this is not going to go on forever. And I like that Pritzker says in a speech like, we will win Congress and we will take back the White House. Like, people need to think that this era will end, that people will look back on what happened with it with not just disgust, but, like, with genuine consequences.

[Jon Favreau]

Are you canceling your Paramount plus subscription?

[Jon Lovett]

What do I watch on Paramount Plus?

[Neera Tanden]

Survivor.

[Jon Lovett]

I watch Survivor on Paramount Plus. How about that?

[Jon Favreau]

There you go.

[Jon Lovett]

How about that?

[Jon Favreau]

Still remember that?

[Jon Lovett]

Remember when I was on that?

[Jon Favreau]

Still?

[Jon Lovett]

I'm taking a break. I'm in a strategic pause.

[Neera Tanden]

It's a hazy memory.

[Jon Lovett]

Yes, I'm in a strategic survivor pause. But I'll be back.

[Neera Tanden]

I think you're right. There are some smart members of Congress, like Tom Malinowski. I think Van Hollen, I think Adam Schiff, people talking about what can we do now to send a message that we are paying attention, we're keeping score, and we're going to talk about this through hearings or whatever means down the road. Whether it's the authoritarians in El Salvador who are contributing to the rendition, extraordinary rendition of American citizens down there that's gonna lead to future assistance cuts, or these law firms that are cutting these disgusting deals and forcing their associates to do pro bono work. And it's like, what? Like, cataloging it all now is very important.

[Jon Favreau]

Speaking of press freedom, we were in D.C. the Correspondence Dinner. No president at the dinner, no comedian, no jokes and fascism, you know?

[Jon Lovett]

Yeah.

[Jon Favreau]

Do you guys notice a difference? Should we discuss. Do a couple minutes on our.

[Jon Lovett]

Can I tell you something? There's a little bit too much of like, you can't, you can't go to a party, ironically, you know, there's a little too much, like, as long as I say this is weird and maybe uncomfortable, I can have a couple of drinks. Like, there's no need to do this. Like, the opposite of. The opposite of, like, you don't prove how much you take Trump seriously by, like, not having a couple drinks.

[Jon Favreau]

I know I was, I said this to someone who asked me that question. I was like, maybe it's just because we're in LA all the time, but I'm like, we do this all day long, talk about this and how scary Trump is. And we talk about, like, you got to go live your life too.

[Neera Tanden]

I just think that like the entire White House press corps, the Correspondence association, would be better off not pretending that weekend is about anything but a fucking party. It has always been about a party. It is not about press freedom. Yes, they do some good scholarships. There's real speakers that talk. But I have watched that room full of random celebrities talk over the children of deceased journalists who are killed in conflicts. Okay, These, this was a decade ago. This is 15 years ago. It was never about these high minded principles. It was a bunch of people getting loaded with the guys from the Hangover movies or whatever it was, which is. Okay, just be what you are.

[Jon Lovett]

Well, that's the thing is like, I.

[Jon Favreau]

Think like there was, got drunk, talked to a bunch of people who hadn't seen in a while. That was great.

[Jon Lovett]

It was great. And like, this is why, like, I.

[Jon Favreau]

Did save press freedom.

[Jon Lovett]

No, I didn't do much too much damage either. But like, I talked about this with Eugene on Love it or Leave it, that, like, part of the, like, what I was disappointed by is that that Amber Ruffin, who's great, like, would have brought a lot of attention to journalism. And, like, there should be a comedian at dinner because otherwise no one's going to pay attention to it. That's part of what the, like, the weekend is all about. And then I said that, like, obviously I'm available.

[Neera Tanden]

You know, I think Alex Thompson got a lot of attention for talking about how the media should have done a better job covering Biden's age, et cetera. And, like, there's some truth to that. Alex also has a book coming out on the subject, so it's a little bit self serving.

[Jon Favreau]

More.

[Neera Tanden]

A little bit self serving, if we're being honest. But also just an example. Like, yes, maybe there could have. Should have been more coverage of Biden's age and mental acuity and decline, but also the American people were very aware of it. Yeah, it showed up in every poll.

[Jon Favreau]

Every single one. Every single one. Even without the additional intrepid reporting. Yeah, they kind of got the. They kind of got the hint.

[Jon Lovett]

Yeah, he was held accountable. Yeah.

[Jon Favreau]

Like, it seems like a couple of these.

[Jon Lovett]

Yeah, this is the. This, These. These two journalists were picking it up. Dear listener, I pointed out my eyes. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Here's Leslie Stahl. Leslie Stahl and Anderson Cooper were on the case.

[Jon Favreau]

Oh, boy, oh, boy. I'm excited for the book.

[Jon Lovett]

I'm excited for the book.

[Jon Favreau]

I'm excited to talk to them on this podcast. Oh, yeah, we're gonna talk to them anyway. Anyway, it was a good time. Always good to pop into D.C. and then leave. One more thing we wanted to mention before we go. Semaphore's Ben Smith had a great story on Sunday about.

[Neera Tanden]

Great story.

[Jon Favreau]

Oh, my gosh. So fun to read these private group chats over the last where the tech elite started to open up to each other about moving toward Trump. Love it. You talked to Ben for a YouTube special today that you can get on the podcast YouTube channel. So check it out. But how was that?

[Jon Lovett]

It's great. First of all, you should just read this story. But basically all of these guys that kind of radicalized a little bit during kind of the combination of, I think Covid and me too, and George Floyd and felt like, you know, they would say they were like, basically under, like Soviet occupation, but basically they didn't feel like they didn't want to post what they really thought because they didn't want to stand by it or face the blowback for whatever it was. So they took it to Group chats, ostensibly to have a kind of freewheeling open conversation where all ideas would be welcome, but they kind of slowly shift to the right and slowly become a little bit annoyed by people that aren't agreeing with them on certain issues. And it includes everybody from Mark Cuban to like far right activists and all of a sudden Tucker Carlson. But then all of a sudden Donald Trump is president and the economy isn't doing so hot. And it turns out maybe stopping wokeness isn't the most important thing when the stock market loses a couple trillion in value. So it was a good conversation. Check it out.

[Neera Tanden]

My favorite piece of that story. It's not ruining anything, is there was some big group chat called Chatham House that involved like kind of a bunch of hardcore MAGA people and then some journalists. And David Sachs, the now aizar who is mostly known for being a huge douchebag vetro capitalist guy, wrote, this group has become worthless since the loudest voices have tds. So and so you should start a new one with just smart people. Then it's like David Sacks left the group, Tucker Carlson left the group, Sean McGuire left the group, Tyler Winklevoss left the group. They all just left in a fit of pique.

[Jon Lovett]

It's so funny. Just, it's just the whole idea is to have dissent. We gotta be able to talk about things. We will have dissenting views. I talked about this with Ben too, that like one of one, they were challenged on why none of them seemed to find it a big deal that Donald Trump was denying the results of the election. And like House Republicans or anybody else, they have all these justifications for why they don't want to bring it up. But it is interesting.

[Jon Favreau]

When are we starting one?

[Jon Lovett]

Look, I said this in my conversation with Ben, which is, I will not send Ben Smith fucking anything. All right, Add me, you can. Look, it's all fun and games. Put me in.

[Neera Tanden]

It's funny that it's all of this one guy, Mark Andreessen, this venture capitalist who's starting all these group chats. And do you guys remember why he got canceled in like 2016? He tweeted anti colonialism has been economically catastrophic for the Indian people for decades. Why stop now? He was mad about something they did to hurt Facebook. It's like, yeah, well, you're wrong, sir.

[Jon Favreau]

He's got a few other issues.

[Neera Tanden]

Colonialism was bad.

[Jon Lovett]

It doesn't like cancel like he got criticized.

[Jon Favreau]

Exactly.

[Jon Lovett]

These fucking people got criticized. Like it's such as like a kind of both sides of their mouth thing because it's like, oh, you know, it's, it's. You can't say anything. You just. Of course you can. You just don't like what happens when you do. And that's okay. You don't have to say, that's okay. Yeah.

[Jon Favreau]

Well, go check out Lovett's interview with Ben on pod save America YouTube. Go subscribe. If you're not subscribed to the pod save America YouTube channel, I don't know what you're doing.

[Jon Lovett]

Yeah, get on there.

[Jon Favreau]

Okay. When we come back, you'll hear Dan's conversation with Neera Tanden from the center for American Progress. But before we get to that, we are offering a 30 day free trial to friends of the pod. But it's ending tomorrow, so now's the time to join. If you're enjoying this podcast and you believe in what we do, subscribing to Friends of the POD is the best way to support crooked media. It's the most direct way to help us keep building a progressive media ecosystem. You get tons of perks. Ad free episodes of Pod Save America. Pod Save the World Offline. Love it or leave it Exclusive content like Polar Coaster with Dan and access to our Discord community. Head to qriket.com friends or sign up through Apple Podcasts. But don't wait. This offer ends tomorrow. April 30th. Pod Save America is brought to you by Aura Frames. Ready to win Mother's Day and cement your reputation as the best gift giver in the family? Give the moms in your life an Aura digital picture frame that you can preload with family photos they'll love. Every frame comes packaged in a premium gift box with no price tag. It only takes about two minutes to set up a frame using the Aura app, add unlimited photos and videos, and invite as many people as you want to a frame. There are absolutely no hidden fees or subscriptions. Share photos or videos from any device and they will instantly appear on the frame wherever it is in the world. No memory card required. You have complete control over who has access to your frame. And the Aura app lets you share photos more securely than with email, which many other digital frames require. I love Aura frames. I got my parents one for Christmas. Load it up with pictures of our kids all the time, right from my phone, right as we take a new picture on your phone. Then you can just immediately load it into the Aura frame and boom. Beautiful picture in a frame in your loved one's house. It's great. Aura Frames was named the best digital photo frame by a wirecutter and it's easy to see why. There's unlimited storage so you can add as many photos, videos and funny memes as you can find. And it's so simple to set up. Just plug it in and share away or it has a great deal for Mother's Day. For a limited time, listeners can save on the perfect gift by visiting auraframes.com to get $35 off plus free shipping on their best selling Carver mat frame. That's a U R A frames.com promo code CROOKED. Support the show by mentioning us at checkout. Terms and conditions apply With a home.

[Dan Pfeiffer]

Equity investment from Home tab, you get access to your home equity in cash without monthly payments to use for whatever you'd like, from paying off debt to making renovations or handling emergency expenses. Receive your funds in just a few weeks, start pursuing your financial goals and start getting more out of life. See if you pre qualify for an [e-mail] subject to eligibility. Terms and conditions apply. That's hometap.com.

[F]

She served as domestic policy advisor to President Joe Biden, worked in the Obama White House, worked for Hillary Clinton. Bill Clinton has been around Democratic politics for a long time, but she's now the CEO of the center for American Progress Action Fund. Neera Tanden, welcome to POD Save America.

[Tommy Vietor]

Great to be with you, Dan.

[F]

I should disclose at the top of this that on Inauguration Day 2017, while Trump was speaking, you called me and asked me to join the board of the center for American Progress Action Fund. So I have been a board member of your organization for eight years now.

[Tommy Vietor]

Yes.

[F]

That was wild.

[Tommy Vietor]

I don't blame you for his inauguration.

[F]

It was a really good time to get me to agree to something.

[Tommy Vietor]

I bet.

[F]

So it was very clever. Very clever. All right, let's start. The center for American Progress was formed in 2003. It really rose up to be sort of in the center of Democratic resistance and opposition for more than 20 years now. It was sort of the locus of a lot of thought about how to defeat George W. Bush and how to build back from the losses we had in those election as really a center of resistance in the first Trump administration. What do you think resistance in Trump 2.0 should look like?

[Tommy Vietor]

Well, I think resistance is very different from 2017. We are in a very different time. The president, President Trump is much more dangerous. The country was, is in a much more fertile place right now for him.

[F]

Fertile meaning fertile.

[Tommy Vietor]

And I'll say, I mean, meaning essentially, you know, because he won the popular vote, I think a lot of people believe he has, you know, he has the majority with him and are much more scared of him. In 2017, he lost the popular vote. A lot of people thought it was a fluke. So you didn't see institutions sort of pre obey or gave. So I think the moment right now is much more dangerous in a real sense because, you know, I think Bannon and Trump and Russ Fot look at America as a battlefield and they are really systematically not just trying to advance their own forces, but take out oppositional organizations, things that they see as oppositional to them, whether it's the media or law firms or universities or unions. So the country's in a much more dangerous place. And also, frankly, the brand of the Democratic Party and the is in a very different place than it was eight years ago. Eight years ago, again, Hillary Clinton didn't win the Electoral College, but she did win the popular vote. And also President Obama was seen as a successful president. And so the party was in a much stronger position than it is now. So I think resistance and opposition today has to mean three things. One, really trying to drive facts about what Trump is doing and really make clear to the American people in the miasma of Greenland and Canada, he's actually harming your pocketbook. He's taking away security for your families, health security, raising prices. So it's really driving that connection. I also think it's vital that we create an alternative agenda so it's, you know, so that people see that they have two choices of change, not just Trump's wrecking ball versus a Democratic party status quo. And then third, and, you know, I think this really goes to the democracy point. We have to think about how we bolster institutions and buck them up and really push against institutions that want to cave to Trump because, you know, that is also very, very dangerous and different.

[F]

Let's start with the institutions, right? Like you have, you have talked about in some of your interviews since returning to the center for American Progress Action Fund, that Democrats can't continue to be just like knee jerk defenders of institutions.

[Tommy Vietor]

Yes, yes.

[F]

CAP is probably the most influential or one of the most influential of all Democratic Party institutions. It sort of sits at the nexus of sort of politics and policy making and sort of thinking about the future of the party. What is the alternative to defending institutions when Trump is trying to destroy them? Like, how do we. I guess the question is, and I think it's a fair critique of all of us that the, like, we took the election like a lot of people took. The lesson of the 2020 election is that people did not like Trump's destruction of institutions he was trying to take down. Congress came out January 6th, and so we became defenders of institutions. President Biden is an institutionalist to his core. Like, when he was most passionate, I think, in his presidency was in some of those speeches he gave about democracy and defending institutions. Like, what's the middle ground between where Trump is and defending the broken political system?

[Tommy Vietor]

So I think this is really a central question for the party going forward. And I think that in many ways, we sort of misread 2020, and we being all of us, all of us misread 2020. I think, you know, every election is actually a change election. Every election has been a Change election since 2006, except for one, and that was President Obama's reelection in 2012, which, if you think about it now going back, looks pretty amazing. That, given all the trend lines before and since, it's a real standout. So every election has been a change election. I think one of our challenges in 2020 was that, and I speak for all of us, is that we thought that it was really a restoration. It was like a restoration of the order. And I think it may have just been a repudiation of the form and function of Donald Trump's presidency. And I really fundamentally believe that people in the country are still angry across the board about what, you know, a whole range of problems. And that really, the tactic that or the approach has to be, you know, that we're going to solve every problem. And I think it's. This is an even more important issue for Democrats because we believe in government. And so, you know, I look back and I'll say candidly, I think we should have solved problems earlier. You know, I wasn't there for the entire time on immigration, and I didn't, you know, handled the border day to day, but I was in the immigration team, and we should have handled that much earlier.

[F]

You mean more aggressive, like, moving more aggressive border security? What does that mean?

[Tommy Vietor]

Yes. So we took actions in June of this year to really ensure that we were limiting border crossings. And, you know, very painful to do in the party, but candidly, doing it after Trump was the nominee really communicated to a lot of people. I think that, you know, if you really cared about immigration, he was the force that was making us do it. If we'd solved it a year or two earlier, then maybe we'd be in a different place. And I just think, actually, I actually think the most important thing is that we offer solutions on a whole Host of things. And, you know, we've been working on, for example, we've been working on government reform issues. Now we. It's Secretary Buttigieg, or I guess Pete Buttigieg, we call him now, talked about this the other day, which is, you know, it's actually not reforming the government to just slash programs, but it is totally reasonable for people to want the government to work better for them. So we're undertaking a project where we're providing ideas about how to make government work more seamlessly for consumers, reduce friction, make the government, put the citizen at the center of its work instead of making citizens go through lots of hoops. And that's really a product of a lot of conservatives who want to make government more difficult. So we really see this as a moment where we have to offer actual ideas on a whole range of issues, take more seriously where people are on some of these problems. Sometimes I think, coming from the administration, sometimes I think we think people's concerns about an issue are really just political. You know, a lot of people, I think, thought immigration was just an issue conservatives were pushing instead of a legitimate concern. Of course, there's insane things they're doing now that people don't like that people don't like that. Actually sticking people who are legally here in prison gulags in El Salvador is wrong. You know, we can have a happy medium, you know, on these issues. So I think the real challenge for Democrats right now, I mean, there's multiple challenges.

[F]

Yes, it feels that way.

[Tommy Vietor]

Yes, it could be here for hours, but. But a challenge for four Democrats is not just defending institutions. You know, like, I am angry at what they're doing, but I'm not sure doing a rally in front of a building is the most important thing. More communicating, you know, using your channels to communicate the impact of what that is with human stories, real people stories of how they're, you know, being denied small business loans or other things, or their prices are going up or they're worried about the health of their children. You know, that I think is really crucial, but also it's really important to say what you would do. And I think the one asymmetric benefit or asymmetric asset that Trump has is he's very good at making his opponents, caricaturing his opponents as defenders of status quo.

[F]

Let's talk about an alternative agenda, right? This is something Central American progress has worked on, you know, for as long as it's been around. I remember in 2005, they worked on an Iraq plan to sort of help Democrats figure Out, particularly Democrats who had voted for the Iraq war, to figure out sort of how to get to the. Get to a. Have an alternative. Right.

[Tommy Vietor]

Yeah. And how to end the Iraq war in a way that increases our security, which a certain senator took up. Yes, yes, exactly.

[F]

I assume immigration is one of those issues in which you think we probably need an alternative. And I guess sort of another question is, like, I've been thinking about this a lot. I get this question all the time, like, Democrats need an agenda, which I, I agree with. Like, it's. If you don't agree with that, I'm not sure, like, what you really believe if you're not willing to just accept that premise.

[Tommy Vietor]

Yeah.

[F]

But there is this question of, like, how do you, like, how do you communicate it? Like, in 2005, you could have Senate and House leadership before it, and it felt like then we had a party. Now it's just, I just don't even know. Like, like, how are you sort of thinking about a. What's in that agenda? But how do you let people, Voters know that we have an agenda?

[Tommy Vietor]

Well, the truth is that, I mean, we will put out our agenda, but obviously it's like thousands upon thousands of conversations. Right. It's leaders in the House taking them up. But, you know, I'd be interested. It's really interesting right now. You know, governors are reaching out for what do we say about immigration? Particularly because they want to criticize what Trump is doing. But I think they also feel a little bit of insecurity about answering, you know, what do you do about immigration writ large? Or what do you do about the border and other things. So, you know, our, our ideas, which we'll be putting out very shortly, are how to fix the broken immigration system. And the truth is our system is broken in multiple dimensions, and we have the str. We have to be able to make that case. So it is a problem that our border is not secure, but really there has been an abuse of the asylum system. That abuse started in the Trump administration and went up in the Biden administration. So we should fix that problem. It's also a big problem in our country that these green card backlogs are decades old, and we should fix that. And I actually believe that people want more or be open to more legal immigration if they felt that their border itself was secure. And so we're going to put forward ideas that basically fix all of the problems of the immigration system. Not everyone's going to love our plan, I'm sure, but we really think the focus should be what is the problem and how are we fixing it? And we've both worked for political leaders who got up every day and thought, when there's a big problem, the country has to solve it. And I think one of the changes in the presidency over the last couple of decades is, you know, people sort of expect the president to solve problems. And, you know, they're not thinking politically of like, does this issue help or her. Democrats are just really trying to get solutions. And I think one of the challenges is if you think about your job as oriented towards Congress and what can pass, then you think about just that dimension. But if you just think, if you're thinking about every SOP problem you can solve for, sometimes that takes Congress, sometimes that takes executive action, sometimes that takes working with governors, sometimes that takes trying to change the culture. But you are being a change agent. And in, like, the way you're thinking about things.

[F]

That is something I'm gonna ask you in a second about Trump's first hundred days. But that is something that. I was talking to Molly Murphy, who was a poster for President Biden and Kamala Harris, but she was saying in her focus groups, like, people don't really love what Trump is doing, but they do think he's doing things.

[Tommy Vietor]

Yes, right. Yes.

[F]

And so he is, given the perception of action.

[Tommy Vietor]

Yeah, he's leading.

[F]

He's leading. And we don't actually believe he's leading, but people think. People see that.

[Tommy Vietor]

I think he's leading us off a cliff.

[F]

Yeah. Yeah. I guess you could be leading in bad ways.

[Tommy Vietor]

He's definitely leading.

[F]

Yes.

[Tommy Vietor]

And he's driving events instead of being driven by them.

[F]

Exactly. And he is. And this is something President Obama used to say, which is something like, sometimes you just have to get caught trying 100%. And even if you can't, like, let's say a Democrat wins in 2028, maybe we have a Democratic Congress, maybe we don't. Maybe we have a split. But that president is going to be like. Has to seem like they are trying every day to solve the problem, even if they are limited somewhat by Congress. Right.

[Tommy Vietor]

A thousand percent. And, you know, I think this is. This is really also just changed dramatically in the way communications have changed. You know, there's so much competition for attention. Right. But the presidency and the president is, you know, is still the national leader of the country. And I think, you know, I think people just expect the president to solve their problems. You know, it's like, you know, we've all had the experience where you're talking to somebody and they're basically are like, why hasn't the president fixed, you know, for example, homelessness? And, you know, you can get into a robust conversation about actually how homelessness is mostly a localized problem. It's not in most places. You know, most of the resources are at the. At the local level. But this is, you know, I mean, I think this is one of the things that Trump has done, which is that, you know, he. There's no differentiation in his mind between federal, state, and local. He won't comment on anything. He will.

[F]

He was commenting on the changing of a mascot at Long Island High School the other day.

[Tommy Vietor]

Nobody. And, like, he will try to direct resources on anything. And, you know, I do think, you know, we both worked for President Obama and, you know, like, something would happen. He, you know, he would try to see how he could fix it. Right. And even if Congress was out of the way, he'd kind of think about how he tried to fix it another way. And sometimes people would malign that as, like, pattern pen strategy. But actually, it was a how do we fix this problem? Strategy. People. I thought it's. I think it's always important to communicate that you are trying to fix a problem. Get caught trying. But actually you're trying to fix a problem, whether it's through Congress, through the executive branch, or any other way. And, you know, I think this is the way governors think a lot.

[F]

That's right. You know, so we're coming up on the hundredth day of the Trump presidency.

[Tommy Vietor]

I shouldn't smile. It's very grim.

[F]

Well, I mean, it could. It could be worse. We go on the 50th day. Right. So 100 days behind us. What's your sort of assessment of how, like, there's a lot of noise. Right. A lot of things. He keeps doing a lot of things. Many of those things have been stopped in court or the executive order doesn't really add up to a lot of substance.

[Tommy Vietor]

I mean, it's really. These executive orders are like press releases. Honestly, like, as someone who was a.

[F]

Staff secretary, that must be quite frustrating.

[Tommy Vietor]

Well, I'm also like, I just wish we could have gotten away with this tactic of just doing a press release and people like obeying ahead of a time.

[Jon Lovett]

You know, when we were at the.

[F]

Obama White House, I wanted. And I was the communications director, I wanted to do a presidential memorandum on something, and we really had to, like, get it done for the news cycle. And obviously, as you know, there's a very robust interagency process to get it approved. And I was like, no, we have to get it done tomorrow.

[Tommy Vietor]

Yeah.

[F]

And the person. The staff secretary's office told me I was taking the guardrails off government.

[Jon Lovett]

Which is. Which is.

[F]

I don't think that is. That phrase is used very often in the Trump administration. I don't think they're running a process.

[Tommy Vietor]

The quaint notions of, like, asking agencies how it would affect people. Yeah, it's kind of crazy thing, but.

[F]

How do you think about just what's your sort of your quick assessment of the first hundred days?

[Tommy Vietor]

You know, I actually think we've turned a real corner in the last couple of weeks. And I don't know if it's like Harvard stood up or Democrats getting a spine on immigration issues, like on the deportation issues, but I actually think that. Or maybe it's just Trump has done so much that the levels of chaos with the tariffs and the economic, the economic dislocations have all just like gone into a whirlwind. But I, you know, I do think fundamentally he is in a very different place. And honestly, you know, he's got a great communications, a range of communications assets. But the, the truth of the, the first hundred days is that I think he will. People will look back at this and say he used a lot of his political capital in ways that were ultimately squandered. Most of his EOs are being shut down by the courts. There are temporary restraining orders, and he is actually. His administration is obeying most of those TROs. So I think he kind of came in and thought, I'm going to do all these executive actions. And he's actually been quite limited and it is really important that people are standing up. I mean, this is why mass protests are really important, because institution. Everybody sees that there is a strong opposition and that's been hugely critical.

[F]

Yeah, I mean, it is. If you just were. Assess it politically. He is underwater. On. He's underwater. The only person with lower approval rates at this point is Donald Trump in his first term. A hundred percent Obama and George W. Bush from the 60s. President Biden was at 54, his approval rating at this point. And Trump's 46. 45.

[Tommy Vietor]

45.

[F]

Depending. Depending on the moment in which poll comes out.

[Tommy Vietor]

Let's hope it's just a trend line.

[F]

Yeah, well, I mean, he has lost a point every week in his approval rating for the last two months.

[Tommy Vietor]

Yeah. Now, I do think, and this is an important thing for all of us, I do think it is. It feels very different if you were in the 30s than if you're in the 40s. And I think institutions will treat him differently. And you know, I keep harping, harping on these institutions. But I will say when you look at other countries that face an authoritarian threat, it feels very different in the country when a whole range of institutions are just kowtowing to the administration. So it is important that we keep at it and drive his numbers down. And I will say cap and cap action. We are very focused on driving the connection every day between a thing Trump has done and the cost to you and your family.

[F]

Last question for you. You did an interview with Ben Smith of Semaphore where you talked about one of the things you really want to understand is why quote, unquote bidenomics did not have the political impact you thought were did all these things that were very good for the country, very good for a lot of the people who left our party to vote for Donald Trump in this election. Have you what's your assessment on why that is or how you're thinking about it?

[Tommy Vietor]

Well, I think honestly lots of people are cross pressured on lots of issues. And I think it's multi dimensional, multi dimensional and it's not just economics. I mean, Joe Biden had an agenda for working class people. It was I'm going to get the Congress to pass hundreds of billions of dollars of investments and 70 to 80% of those jobs are going to go to people without a college degree. Now, maybe we didn't communicate that, but that was definitely a strategy focused on working class people. And he talked about plants and manufacturing locations and jobs in places that had been economically left behind in red state and blue state and purple states. And that message was trumped by other messages in this last election. Now maybe it's also possible we didn't communicate it well, always a possibility. So I think we should understand that. But I also think there's two other things that are going on that we also have to wrestle with. First there kind of security issues, culture issues where, you know, I mean, I do think a range of voters thought of immigration as a kind of economic issue as well. The right really focused on large numbers of people coming in and raising rents and other issues. So that's something that I think we have to wrestle with and address and actually address which we're working on. But I also think, and this is I, you know, I kind of defer to you where I think there's just a constant drumbeat online and elsewhere that by the right, well funded that says liberal elites look down on you as a working class person. They judge you, their values are different from you. And I think there's two ways to approach that. First, we should figure out our own mechanisms of communication. But I also think we have to go out of our way in instances where that might feel like it's happening to distinguish ourselves, say that's wrong, go out of our way to really listen to people. I mean, I think there's this big, robust debate about where things are in the party. And I think we have to wrestle with the fact that white working class people, not all working class people, but white working class people, have voted for a billionaire three times. And like, how do we impact that and how do we question our own assumptions when we do that?

[F]

And an increasing share of non white working class people, which I think is.

[Tommy Vietor]

Yes.

[F]

And the part that really, I think flummoxes a lot of how a lot of people thought about politics in the Trump era.

[Jon Favreau]

Yeah.

[Tommy Vietor]

And I think honestly, we have to think about economics from a fairness perspective. Absolutely. But I think for a lot of people, young people, the working class, people of color, we lost, particularly the men. You know, what I've heard from a lot of people doing analysis is that they have been really focused on economic success, opportunity, like how do their family does, how their family will do better. And I think that, like, that is another. That's an area where we have to come up with ideas. And Cap will be working on that over the next several months as well.

[F]

The hard part is, I mean, there's sort of a twofold problem here. One, like, as you mentioned, there's a communications issue. Just people did not have the information. Like, that did not break through to people at all. Like you would like, I saw all the polls, which is like, what did you know? Did Biden do all these things? No. Here are the things Biden did. Do you like them? Yes. Now, but what's interesting there is it did not lead to them to vote for him. Vote change.

[Tommy Vietor]

Yeah, but that's like the business. The business is in everybody. You know, people like a lot of things. It's like what persuades them to vote for you over the other guy. Yeah.

[F]

And I think one thing as a party we have to think about is like, we need. You need the policy.

[Jon Lovett]

Right.

[F]

You need the ideas. But we have to think about economics as an identity issue. A hundred percent, which is like, am I, like, are you, Am I fighting for you? This is what Trump is very good at. Right. It's like they think some group of people think that he'll fight for them. Right. Like he had an advantage in this election just because he was not the incumbent at a time of inflation and people remember lower costs from his age. But in general, all this stuff, this is like absurd policies that don't really make a lot of sense or would only address a small portion, like the no tax on tips affects a small group. It's a good.

[Tommy Vietor]

It's a signifier.

[F]

Yes.

[Tommy Vietor]

You know, it was a signifier to voters that he got what it's like to be a waitress or a waiter because he was really focused on that issue. I mean, I think we should learn lessons from that. Yeah, we need signifier policies. We're communicating. Like, we get this. We get what it's like. I mean, I think sometimes we think about the biggest policies. But I, I guess my take on, on, you know, on everything you were talking about is he has an advantage, which is, you know, he will say kind of crazy things that nobody would nor no political advisor would tell you to say. So people are like, well, he's obviously being candid. And, you know, he has a whole frame of, I'm fighting for you. Because he gets attacked a lot. And he has a way of speaking. And I think we have to do many things. But I think the fundamental problem or a fundamental issue is that he himself says, and there is a constant message machine that liberals look down on you and hate you and distrust your values and don't know what your life is like. And there's a way to talk about that. There's a way to communicate about those issues. I mean, no one really remembers this, but the, you know, President Obama's share of working class voters and white working class voters was higher than our last several nominees. And, and he was a black man and they were white. And. Except for.

[F]

But he was. But he was, but he was an outsider, which is.

[Tommy Vietor]

Yeah, but he was an outsider. He was an outsider and he had a populist critique of Romney. And also I just think there's. And he was a, you know, he was arguing for change in multiple ways. So. And he was running, you know, John McCain was an institutionalist. So I think there's, you know, we just have to be super mindful of talking, like, you know, representing ourselves as champions of change, but also, you know, champions of people who are struggling every day.

[F]

Well, Neera, I could talk to you about this for hours and we probably will offline. But thank you so much for being here on Pot Save America. And it's always great to talk to you.

[Tommy Vietor]

Thank you so much. Thanks for having me.

[Jon Favreau]

That's our show for today. Dan and I will be back with a new show on Friday. If you want to listen to Pod Save America ad free or get access to our subscriber discord and exclusive podcasts, consider joining our Friends of the pod [e-mail] friends or subscribe on Apple Podcasts directly from the Pod Save America feed. Also, be sure to follow Pod Save America on TikTok, Instagram, Twitter, and YouTube for full episodes, bonus content, and more. And before you hit that next button, you can help boost this episode by leaving us a review and by sharing it with friends and family. Pod Save America is a crooked media production. Our producers are David Toledo and Saul Rubin. Our associate producer is Farah Safari. Reid Churlin is our Executive editor and Adrienne Hill is our Executive Producer. The show is mixed and edited by Andrew Chadwick. Jordan Kanter is our sound engineer with audio support from Kyle Seglin and Charlotte Landis. Madelyn Herringer is our head of news and programming. Matt de Groat is our Head of production. Naomi Sengel is our Executive assistant. Thanks to our digital team, Elijah Cohn, Hayley Jones, Ben Hethcoat, Mia Kellman, Molly Lobel, Kiril Pelaviev, and David Toles. Our production staff is proudly unionized with the Writers Guild of America east what's poppin listeners?

[Tommy Vietor]

I'm Laci Mosley, host of the podcast Scam Goddess, the show that's an ode to fraud and all those who practice it. Each week I talk with very special guests about the scammiest scammers of all time.

[Jon Favreau]

Wanna know about the fake errors?

[Tommy Vietor]

We got em. What about a career con man? We've got them too guys that will.

[Jon Favreau]

Wine and dine you and then steal all your coins.

[Tommy Vietor]

Oh, you know they are represented because representation matters. I'm joined by guests like Nicole byer.

[Jon Favreau]

Ira Madison III, Conan O'Brien, and more.

[Tommy Vietor]

Join the congregation and listen to Scam Goddess wherever you get your podcasts.

[Jon Favreau]

Did you know that parents rank financial literacy as the number one most difficult life skill to teach? Meet Greenlight, the debit card and money app for families. With Greenlight, you can set up chores, automate allowance and keep an eye on your kids spending with real time notifications, kids learn to earn, save and spend wisely. And parents can rest easy knowing their kids are learning about money with guardrails in place. Sign up for Greenlight [e-mail] podcast.