Trump Held a Fair And (Almost) No One Came

Summary

Pod Save America: Episode Summary
Episode: “Trump Held a Fair And (Almost) No One Came”
Date: June 30, 2026

Overview

This episode sees hosts Jon Favreau, Jon Lovett, Tommy Vietor, and guest Heather Williams (president of the Democratic Legislative Campaign Committee) tackle a packed political week. The big story: Donald Trump’s ego-driven, underwhelming “Great American State Fair” on the National Mall and the partisan boondoggle it became. The crew also unpacks several consequential Supreme Court decisions on Trump’s liability in the E. Jean Carroll case, presidential authority to fire agency heads, and mail-in voting rules. In the backdrop: a raucous intra-Democratic Party debate about the rise of leftist candidates, and a smart, practical conversation with Heather Williams on the fight for state legislatures ahead of 2026.

---

Main Topics & Key Insights

1. Trump’s “Great American State Fair” Fiasco

[01:32 - 13:00]

• Trump’s celebratory event for America’s 250th birthday—organized by his own group “Freedom250” to rival Congress’s bipartisan “America250”—has gone embarrassingly awry.
• Attendance is low, ten states and nearly all musical acts (except Vanilla Ice and Florida) pulled out, and weather plus technical mishaps (power outages, food spoilage, broken Ferris wheel) plagued the fair.
• The event has become a partisan spectacle rather than a unifying celebration.
  • Jon Lovett [08:00]: “Trump took that money, gave it to Freedom250, turned it into a partisan boondoggle, and now nobody's showing up.”
• Reports of bizarre incidents (e.g., a MAGA live streamer arrested for public indecency) add to the farcical tone.
• The fair is dominated by corporate sponsors and questionable financial transparency:
  • Donors giving $1+ million can attend a private Trump reception.
• Notably, even attendees acknowledged the situation’s surrealism:
  • Scott, attendee, quoted by Jon Favreau [11:25]: “I like this. I don’t really take Trump into consideration. He’s gonna be gone in three years, dead in ten…”

2. The Continuing Trumpian Personalization of Public Property

[13:00 - 17:05]

• Trump is busy rebranding DC landmarks for himself—renovating public golf courses and planning 47 maple trees in Lafayette Park (“for 47th president”).
• He falsely claims to have funded a new White House colonnade; in reality, taxpayers footed the $690K bill.
• Hosts point out the narcissistic and petty use of presidential power for self-aggrandizement, drawing sharp contrasts to past presidents.

3. Major Supreme Court Decisions

[17:07 - 30:25]

• E. Jean Carroll Libel Case: SCOTUS lets verdict stand; Trump must pay $5M.
  • Jon Favreau [17:53]: “She’s getting paid. That’s the end of the road for Trump on that one.”
• Geofence Warrants & Privacy: SCOTUS (6-3, cross-ideological majority) rules that police need warrants for location data; notable for protecting privacy in the digital era.
  • Jon Lovett [18:06]: “If my phone knows where I am at all times, I view that information as both like my private information and useful to me.”
  • Tommy Vietor [19:10]: “The government was trying to argue... a little tiny taste of your location history...was not a search, which is just nonsense.”
• Presidential Removal of Agency Heads: In a 6-3 split, the Court rules presidents can fire certain independent agency heads without cause (FTC, others) but maintains special protection for Federal Reserve governors.
  • Tommy Vietor [24:20]: “...the implications go well beyond the FTC. The president can now fire leaders at will from the SEC, the Consumer Product Safety Commission...”
  • Hosts warn this change makes independent agencies far more subject to presidential whim and endangers checks and balances.
• Mail-in Ballot Rules: 5-4 decision upholds Mississippi’s postmark-by-Election-Day rule and prevents GOP-led efforts to toss similar rules in 14 states.
  • Tommy Vietor [30:25]: “I think it allows, like, 30 states to keep their policies in place in terms of how they count mail in ballots. So that’s pretty important.”

4. Housing Bill, The SAVE Act, and GOP Disarray

[30:53 - 36:52]

• Trump threatens to veto popular bipartisan housing legislation to force passage of his “SAVE America Act.”
• The crew ridicules Trump’s approach and highlights the GOP’s awkward politics:
  • Jon Favreau [32:11]: “Bored of the Iran War, bored of housing. Just wants to rig elections.”
• The hosts laud the housing bill’s prospects and political importance, noting broad support and the lack of real leverage for Trump.

5. Democratic Party’s Internal Left-Right Split

[39:21 - 51:50]

• Recent primary wins by DSA (Democratic Socialists of America) candidates in NY and leftist surge in Colorado signal ongoing tension.
• Hosts and guests review Democratic reactions: some calling for purges, others seeking coalitions.
  • Josh Gottheimer (quoted by Lovett) [40:20]: “If you’re a socialist, you are not Democrat...”
  • Chris Murphy [41:15]: “I do believe the Democratic Party has been historically way too timid in taking on corporate power.”
• The crew urges nuanced, big-tent coalition politics, noting that primaries are for these debates and pushing for good-faith engagement over purity tests.
  • Jon Favreau [48:15]: “I think primaries are good no matter what. If the progressive wins, if the moderate wins, they're primaries. They're fine. That's what the voters want.”
• Online discourse is slammed for bad faith and toxicity versus real-world organizing and the need to persuade and build coalitions:
  • Jon Lovett [44:19]: “I found very few responses to what you said about trying to persuade you or, or kind of think about what you're saying... Did not see a lot of that.”

6. Progressive Backlash and Antisemitism Debate

[51:59 - 57:56]

• A viral confrontation at a San Francisco trans march: state senator Scott Wiener is harassed by protesters over his perceived Israel stance, despite his progressive record and outspoken criticism of Israel's Gaza actions.
• The hosts unequivocally denounce the behavior as antisemitic and counterproductive for the movement.
  • Jon Lovett [54:56]: “...what you’re doing is being an anti-Semite. If you’re following Scott Weiner around, yelling at him in this park, it is because you are being anti-Semitic.”
• They call for the left to call out such behavior and warn about its use as right-wing ammo.

---

Interview: Heather Williams, DLCC President

[59:17 - 75:25]

Key Segments:

• Why State Legislatures Matter ([59:40 - 61:06])
  • State legislatures control critical election procedures, certification, and voting rights. Winning them is essential for democratic process in 2028 and beyond.
• Major Opportunities in 2026 ([61:53 - 62:49])
  • Democrat wins in states like Minnesota, Wisconsin, Michigan, Arizona, and Pennsylvania can reshape the national landscape; picking up just 19 seats would flip six majorities and four trifectas.
• Fighting Gerrymandering and Building Power ([64:17 - 65:46])
  • Strategy includes running candidates everywhere, leveraging state Supreme Court races, and supporting ballot initiatives (e.g., MI’s citizens’ redistricting).
• Beyond Fundraising ([66:16 - 68:28])
  • The “attention battle”: low name ID and media focus make it tough, compounded by the decline of local journalism. Ground game is thus vital.
• Diversity and Community Connection ([70:22 - 71:37])
  • State legislative candidates resemble typical community members, often first-timers, who can connect local and national issues in voters’ lives.
• Advising Listeners ([73:07 - 74:03])
  • Heather urges involvement in state races, noting that dialogue and participation broaden perspectives and can build the Democratic bench nationwide.

---

Notable Quotes & Moments

• On Trump’s fair:
  Jon Favreau [08:02]: “Even though it’s a 501C3, apparently donors who donate a million dollars or more can secure an invitation to a private reception hosted by Trump himself. There’s not a lot of transparency on the finances of Freedom250.”
• On Supreme Court decisions:
  Heather Williams [18:05]: “Have kind of allowing these companies to track us digitally... then it’s still being like Google has already changed their policy. So your location data is stored on your phone... it remains my private information in the same way that if I had written it all down and put it in my safe deposit box...”
• On Democratic leftward drift:
  Chris Murphy [41:15]: “Democrats are not gonna win by defending this version of capitalism, but I think we’ll be able to offer ideas on how to dramatically reform it rather than throwing out the entire system.”
• On antisemitism:
  Jon Lovett [54:56]: “...what you’re doing is being an anti-Semite. If you’re following Scott Weiner around, yelling at him in this park, it is because you are being anti-Semitic... as pure antisemitism as you can see, and it is corrosive and it’s worth calling out.”

---

Important Timestamps

• Trump’s fair, attendance & fallout: [01:30 - 13:00]
• Personalization of federal property: [13:00 - 17:05]
• SCOTUS on privacy & E. Jean Carroll: [17:07 - 20:25]
• Agency firings & unitary executive: [22:00 - 29:49]
• Mail-in balloting, housing bill politics: [29:49 - 36:52]
• Democratic Party internal fights: [39:21 - 51:50]
• Backlash against Scott Wiener: [51:59 - 57:56]
• Heather Williams on state legislatures: [59:17 - 75:25]

---

Tone & Language

The conversation is sharp, irreverent, and often deeply funny, but rooted in policy substance. The hosts are candid about their frustrations (with Trump, with the Supreme Court, and with both the Democratic establishment and purist left), often using colorful language but maintaining focus on the stakes for democracy and practical politics.

---

Summary prepared for listeners who want the full substance and flavor of the episode, minus the ads and banter.

Transcript

[Jon Favreau]

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[Jon Lovett]

I'm Jon Lovett.

[Jon Favreau]

And Tommy Gutorre. On today's show, we got major Supreme Court decisions on mail in voting and Donald Trump's right to fire agency heads he doesn't like. It's decision time for Trump on the bipartisan housing bill, which he has threatened to hold hostage until the SAVE act passes. And Democratic socialists are feeling the momentum after last week's primaries in New York with big primaries in Colorado today. Then Heather Williams, president of the Democratic Legislative Campaign Committee, stopped by to talk about breaking Republican trifectas and building Democratic ones in a bunch of key states and how critical it is that you get involved in the down ballot races happening wherever you are. But let's begin where Trump kicked off his week, posting this at 6:30am on Monday. Do you think people appreciate what a fantastic job we did in building and operating the Great American State Fair at the National Mall packed with happy people and everybody loving it? Ask yourself this simple question. And now we're in all caps. Do you think that Obama, he wants to say Obama, but he spells it O B U M A so it's like Obuma.

[Jon Lovett]

Yeah.

[Tommy Vietor]

It just looks like a typo.

[Jon Lovett]

I think it's like a bummer.

[Jon Favreau]

Right, of course. But he's shorthanding Obama. He's not quite getting there. Do you think that Obama or sleepy Joe Biden could have done it? The answer is no. President is of course referring to the 16 day exposition on the National Mall that will run through July 10 to celebrate America's 250th birthday, an event run by Freedom 250, which is the entity Trump created to compete with America 250, which is the bipartisan entity created by Congress years ago.

[Tommy Vietor]

Why 16 days? That's such a weird number of days.

[Jon Lovett]

Yeah.

[Jon Favreau]

I don't know. Okay. I don't know. It's a good question. I don't have the answer to two

[Jon Lovett]

weeks with an extra weekend.

[Tommy Vietor]

Okay.

[Jon Favreau]

I guess started last week.

[Tommy Vietor]

So besides, weeks really work.

[Jon Lovett]

Right. But it'll be a set because it'll be, oh, I get Saturday to a Sunday.

[Heather Williams]

Okay.

[Jon Favreau]

Yeah. Two weeks. Two weeks.

[Jon Lovett]

This is the one thing he got right.

[Tommy Vietor]

I guess.

[Jon Favreau]

Anyway. The perception that Trump turned America's 250th into a partisan event caused all the state fair musical acts to drop out with the exception of Florida and Vanilla Ice. Ten states have also decided not to participate. And the opening weekend was plagued by extreme heat, rain, power outages, and sparse crowds. You never know this if you listen to MAGA World, where everyone thinks it's going great. Happy early birthday, America.

[Tommy Vietor]

We're celebrating already at the great American State Fair.

[Jon Favreau]

Man, we've got thousands of people celebrating this birthday with us.

[Heather Williams]

Do you ever, in your wildest dreams think you may be doing your Sunday show from a state fair on the National Mall? How great is that?

[Jon Favreau]

It's really. It's really something.

[Jon Lovett]

And the weather, not the best today,

[Tommy Vietor]

but people are still coming out.

[Jon Favreau]

Help me out. I want to be a part of this. Well, it's a great day for Larry.

[Jon Lovett]

Good afternoon.

[Jon Favreau]

Perhaps now the closing bell is here. We're getting more people coming out here now that work is done. You mentioned the latest with the Ron. If you look behind us, you see,

[Tommy Vietor]

okay, there are a couple hundred people back there.

[Jon Favreau]

But the truth is, when you make your way over here and you're in this lot, you're in a wash of people.

[Tommy Vietor]

There's tons of people here.

[Jon Lovett]

It's a huge space and it's just going to get more and more crowded as the week goes on.

[Jon Favreau]

Good song. I think we have to give a big round of Applause for our military band and singers. Way better than those libtards that canceled on us. That was Transportation Secretary Sean Duffy talking about the libtards. What do you guys think? Happy 250th. Thanks. How you feeling about the festivities? Trump has organized the Freedom 250America 250 split in the 10 states that aren't participating.

[Tommy Vietor]

I thought the performance by Manny was really good. Did you guys catch that one? You didn't see Maga Manny the live streamer who jerked off in front of the acrobat truck.

[Jon Favreau]

We forgot about the guy who forgot about the guy that the uncle Sam costume.

[Tommy Vietor]

54 year old right wing Maga streamer.

[Jon Lovett]

Did not think 54 was the number

[Tommy Vietor]

two younger arrested by park police for masturbating in front of an acrobat troop called the Cirque Mechanics.

[Jon Favreau]

Can you blame them?

[Tommy Vietor]

According to the Independent, apparently, apparently he was vaping recording and then had a hand through the pocket of the overalls.

[Jon Favreau]

Wow. So he's holding the vape started going down and the phone. I was going to say how many

[Tommy Vietor]

and then another witness said he came back for round two later. And that's what I think. The park police got him.

[Jon Lovett]

Not bad for 54.

[Tommy Vietor]

That's a good point.

[Jon Favreau]

Yeah, I love that. It did look. It did look sparse. But now that the closing bell,

[Jon Lovett]

the traders leaving the floor of the stock exchange where in DC Gonna run up to go check out the latest quilting. I suppose. Also there's just something about all the. Like the thing that I was thinking about is watching this over the weekend is just how much like the whole MAGA world is online. It just exists online. It's a bunch of people complaining online caricatures of the cities that are going to hell online. Just people talking to each other about how America's going down the tubes on the Internet and on Fox News. But like Larry Kudlow's like, oh, it looks like a. When's the last time Larry Kudlow had a fucking corn dog? When's the last time he walked around a state fair? Like none of these people look like they're at home in a kind of outdoor event with fellow citizens.

[Jon Favreau]

Gotta wait for the closing.

[Tommy Vietor]

Well, it's so funny that Fox News State TV decided to go all in on this event. And the net effect is they have to do like sweltering live shots outdoors in front of no.

[Jon Favreau]

1.

[Tommy Vietor]

It's just green fields. No one and then Manny jerking off.

[Jon Favreau]

I also love that the comment like, did you ever think you'd be Doing your live shot from a state fair.

[Tommy Vietor]

What a hypothetical.

[Heather Williams]

Yeah.

[Jon Favreau]

Who would, who would have thunk it?

[Jon Lovett]

But it just, that's what I mean. It's like these are just people that seem like kind of unfamiliar with the country on some level. Like, state fairs are great. They're all over the country. There are a lot of different. Most states, it turns out. Yeah. And they're. And you can go. And there's like actually the news often broadcast from them and tell you about the latest deep fried foods you can get. Like, that was the vibe you could have have had if this weren't taken over by Trump. Like he took. He took something that was bipartisan and a decade in the making. You can actually go online and read what the original plan is. I don't think it would have, you know, what is going to change the country or anything, but it would have been nice. There was like a lot of events happening all across the country. There would have been kind of like a, kind of a national event for craft makers. There would have been big concerts by famous people. There was a lot of money set aside. Trump took that money, gave it to Freedom250, turned it into a partisan boondoggle, and now nobody's showing up.

[Jon Favreau]

And for. Even though it's a 501C3, apparently donors who donate a million dollars or more can secure an invitation to a private reception hosted by Trump himself. There's not a lot of transparency on the finances of Freedom250.

[Jon Lovett]

And even though they've taken most of the money that was supposed to go

[Jon Favreau]

to America 250 from taxpayers, and we do have some corporate sponsors as well, of course, your Northrop Grummans, your United Health Groups, your Space Xs.

[Tommy Vietor]

You see the little army robot Dol kind of marching around like filming people and performing.

[Jon Lovett]

It's very dystopian, the Ferris wheel. I read Devil in the White City recently. I'm an Erik Larson kick, which is about the World's Fair in Chicago in 1893, I believe. And that was when the first Ferris wheel was built. And it was this marvel because they were trying to rival the Eiffel Tower. And all the Europeans were like, oh, those Americans, they'll never be able to build the thing. And then we built a Ferris wheel that was basically a steel tower that moved. It was amazing. Right? Like America is building an Eiffel Tower basically the size of Eiffel Tower. And then you would get on it and you would rotate, freak people the fuck out when people like tried to jump off it. They were freaking out because like we were saying, you know what? Eat shit, Europe. We're going to make something awesome. We're going to build skyscrapers, going to be a cool country. And wait till you see what America is going to do. And now here we are, 130 years later, we got this jag off, you know, doing his version of a great American state fair, quite literally a jago. And with jagoffs. With jagoffs to spare.

[Tommy Vietor]

And you see the Ferris wheel was broken for hours because of generator issues. And also there were power out outages that spoiled like all the food and melted all the ice cream on the first day.

[Jon Favreau]

And last minute, Vanilla Ice canceled because it did inclement weather. Even though he had previously said rain or shine, he was going to be there.

[Tommy Vietor]

Did you read the profile?

[Jon Lovett]

That doesn't sound like the Vanilla Ice I know.

[Tommy Vietor]

Did you read his profile in the Atlantic?

[Jon Favreau]

No.

[Tommy Vietor]

It's fascinating. He claims to have performed for the Taliban. That's just one little tidbit for you to wet your beak. Go read the rest.

[Jon Lovett]

Remember when he said that? I believe he said that this is

[Jon Favreau]

a government where he feels at home then.

[Jon Lovett]

Yeah.

[Jon Favreau]

His kind of rulers that he hadn't

[Jon Lovett]

taken under pressure wasn't that he had claimed like the Vanilla Ice thing that he hadn't taken under pressure.

[Tommy Vietor]

There's a great clip where he's like, no, that one's doom, doom, doom, do doom, doom. And mine is doom, doom, doom, do do do doom, doom. That's the same thing, pal.

[Heather Williams]

Same thing.

[Jon Lovett]

It's the same thing.

[Tommy Vietor]

It's also funny. Some of them mailed it in like Connecticut, Maine, I think, shared a space, put up four chairs and then Maine just had lobster facts on the wall.

[Jon Favreau]

Yeah. In their, like, booth and, and a Totenkopf

[Jon Lovett]

state bird, I believe.

[Jon Favreau]

Yes.

[Tommy Vietor]

Yeah.

[Jon Favreau]

I guess next to the lobby.

[Tommy Vietor]

I mean, the North Carolina booth had a Confederate flag up. So you're.

[Jon Favreau]

Oh, yeah, that's right.

[Tommy Vietor]

You're not far from it.

[Jon Lovett]

Well, because that was. Because that was take. Because North Carolina didn't do it. So like a private. Somehow someone other group did it. Even though, by the way, that was never any. That flag was not the North Carolina flag not associated with the state of North Carolina. So they just wanted to throw one up there.

[Jon Favreau]

It's just kind of a bummer, like you said. It's, it's, it's not the biggest deal of anything. But the 250th anniversary could have been a moment where, you know, a president decided to try to at least try to bring the country together, or didn't try to bring the country together, but at least offered entertainment that anyone could feel welcome. Yeah. Or that anyone could feel welcome, you know, participating.

[Jon Lovett]

He could have just done nothing. He could have just let the group America 250 that existed, had bipartisan membership, had a lot of his allies on

[Jon Favreau]

it, come out, make a little speech on the Fourth, you know, that would

[Jon Lovett]

have been offensive to us. He would have come out there and said something terrible.

[Jon Favreau]

Right.

[Jon Lovett]

But whatever. He could have just let it happen. But instead he got his. His mitts on it, ruined it.

[Jon Favreau]

I will say NBC. And then the New Republic went out and interviewed a bunch of people. And even people that didn't like Trump were like, it's fine. This is great. This is cool. And I do like that one attendee named Scott said to the New Republic, I like this. I don't really take Trump into consideration. He's gonna be gone in three years, dead in 10. He's not gonna take away my joy of this event. He's the president, but he's not God, even though he thinks he is. I wasn't going to come to this, but then I thought, you know, I'm not going to let him take it away.

[Tommy Vietor]

I like.

[Jon Favreau]

Good for you, Scott.

[Jon Lovett]

I like that.

[Jon Favreau]

That is the attitude. I want to hear all patriots from all the libs.

[Tommy Vietor]

That's how I feel.

[Jon Favreau]

Don't let him take it away.

[Tommy Vietor]

Yeah, yeah. You know, they're taken away. The fireworks show in D.C. doesn't start until 11pm Eastern because he has to

[Jon Lovett]

give a long speech. Right. That's what they're.

[Tommy Vietor]

Maybe it's weather, too. That's so late.

[Jon Lovett]

So late for fireworks.

[Jon Favreau]

We're so sleep.

[Tommy Vietor]

That's crazy.

[Jon Lovett]

No, the sun goes down, you look up when sunset is. Whenever that is. I want five minutes later. Explosions in the sky.

[Tommy Vietor]

You want kids to be able to.

[Jon Favreau]

When I was a kid, it used to be. Yeah, we used to. Our town was like 9pm Yeah, 9pm's fine. 11:11 is a wild start.

[Jon Lovett]

Massachusetts has a late sunset. That makes a lot of sense.

[Jon Favreau]

Oh, there we go.

[Jon Lovett]

Okay, I'm sorry. I'm getting on my. My, my high horse.

[Jon Favreau]

So one DC event that will undoubtedly be packed Crooked Con in November, and

[Tommy Vietor]

it's fine to crank one out in front of the main stage there.

[Jon Favreau]

Yes. It's worse, in fact, because then Tommy will feel like, you know, he's got someone else.

[Tommy Vietor]

Applaud you back.

[Heather Williams]

Yeah. You know what I mean?

[Jon Favreau]

He's not the only one Doing it let. You can still get tickets for that and you can get discounted tickets. If you become a crooked subscriber, you also get ad free episodes of all your favorite Crooked Pods Subscriber only shows substack newsletters and much more. Sign [e-mail] friends so, with his fair getting rained out on Sunday, Trump spent the morning motorcating around the Capitol he's busy rebuilding as a monument to himself. He toured the East Potomac Golf Links and will start renovations on that federally owned public course September 1, despite a federal judge threatening, quote, serious consequences if he moves ahead without approval, which he seems to be doing. The president is also planning to redesign Lafayette park, which is the one right in front of the White House, so that it contains exactly 47 maple trees in honor of Trump. That's according to the Washington Post. If you're in town visiting and hop on over to the Washington Passport Agency, you might be able to pick up a limited edition US Passport featuring a photo of Trump at the Resolute desk in front of the Declaration of Independence, which Trump described as saying, quote, welcome, but be good, even though those words don't actually appear on the passport or make any sense.

[Jon Lovett]

Yes, that's not what passports are for. I did when I saw this, he, because he said, this passport says this. And a lot of people were like, but that's not what passports are for. You're a citizen. It's not a welcoming document. You can only get it here.

[Jon Favreau]

Right.

[Jon Lovett]

To leave.

[Tommy Vietor]

It's not a green card. Right.

[Jon Lovett]

It's to leave and come back.

[Jon Favreau]

I think he's a little confused, but

[Jon Lovett]

I think he was describing his own portrait in a way. I think it was his way of saying my angry face here saying, welcome, but be good. Cause we could take your pat. It's a citizenship thing. We could take your citizenship away. That was my interpretation of it.

[Jon Favreau]

Limited edition act now while supplies last. Closer to home, the Atlantic's Michael Scherer found out that the new White House colonnade walkway made of, quote, polished African granite carved in Italy that Trump said he paid for himself was actually paid for by us, about $690,000 charged to the taxpayers. I didn't even know that had happened.

[Jon Lovett]

No, I didn't either.

[Jon Favreau]

Replaced. There was apparently another couple hundred thousand dollars spent on the wall next to the colonnade. Because, remember, he put up the pictures, all the pictures, and you had to, like, do something to the wall. I don't know why it cost that much money, but to do something to the wall in order to Put up all those pictures. And so that costs money as well. Have you guys said thank you yet? Have you even said thank you?

[Jon Lovett]

Math scores in the schools are continuing to slide. It's gonna flag some problems that are getting worse while he's been president.

[Tommy Vietor]

I just, I think that The Lafayette Park 47 Tree tribute demand is actually quite instructive because for those who've never been to Washington D.C. or gone to Lafayette park, it is nothing. I can't, I can't overstate how underwhelming and shitty of a little park it is. I've been through it a thousand times. I'm sure you guys have too, because like you get off the bus or you get off the metro, you walk a block and you walk through it to get to the White House and it's like, usually there's just a lot of squirrels and a couple crazy people. And then that one protest that's been there for 30 years, the anti war protest. But the fact that he needs that to be a tribute to himself means that no narcissistic stone will go unturned by this man.

[Jon Favreau]

It's also no one knows if he wants to add trees or subtract trees because no one knows how many trees there are in Lafayette park because who would count such a thing? It's just a park with bunch of trees. And now we're gonna go figure out whether we have to add more trees

[Jon Lovett]

or take more trees.

[Tommy Vietor]

And they're maple trees.

[Jon Favreau]

That's his favorite. Oh yeah. He's gotta go with his favorite. Everything's, everything's about him. His favorite trees, his favorite, his picture everywhere.

[Jon Lovett]

I gotta say though, you know, at this point, the ark. Great. I want him in as many fucking tree meetings and ark meetings and pool meetings as possible. He is not busy enough if he wants to plant a couple trees. We're just three chopped trees away from it being the Obama Lafayette park tribute. So whatever have we have at it. Park. Plant your fucking trees. Fucking asshole. But it's the, the, the, the absurdity you imagine. Could you imagine if, if in the last year of his administration, Joe Biden was wandering around the, the various grounds, talking about the renovations he was going to be doing and what kind of reaction you would be hearing right now from, from, from the right of B.

[Jon Favreau]

You'd be hearing it from us.

[Jon Lovett]

You hear from us.

[Tommy Vietor]

25th of March.

[Jon Favreau]

Oh boy. All right.

[Jon Lovett]

Plant away, buddy.

[Jon Favreau]

Plant away. Yeah, enjoy those trees. Let's get to some more consequential news. The Supreme Court handed down a few big decisions On Monday, as it closes out its term, the court declined to throw out the 2023 jury verdict finding Trump liable for sexually abusing and defaming Eugene Carroll, meaning he has to pay her that $5 million. In a 6, 3 ruling where three conservatives joined the liberals, the court also held the Fourth Amendment covers your cell phone location history, even when you've agreed that a third party like Google or Apple can record it, meaning police now need a specific warrant to get it, rather than a so called geofence warrant that sweeps up the movements of every phone in a particular area. So that seems good. Both of those seem good, right? We have some other ones to get through, but I thought we'd start with E. Jean Carroll and the. And the geofencing.

[Jon Lovett]

Yeah, the I've been. The geofencing one is just interesting. It's also interesting that it's like it's a non ideological. It has a kind of a ideologically mixed ruling in part because I do think it's like a novel question. And if we are going to have.

[Heather Williams]

Be.

[Jon Lovett]

Have kind of allowing these companies to track us digitally, including in ways that in a previous era would have been only private information, then it's still being like Google has already changed their policy. So your location data is stored on your phone. They did that to avoid this issue. But if my phone knows where I am at all times, I view that information as both like my private information and useful to me. Whether or not it is stored directly on my phone or stored at a server, it remains my private information in the same way that if I had written it all down and put it in my safe deposit box, it would remain private information. And I think the more that when they're thinking about how to translate our principles into a digital world, the more they're respecting how we actually use things and how what privacy really means, not sort of the technical definition that's sort of blown up by how interconnected and cloud based so much of our lives are.

[Jon Favreau]

The better.

[Tommy Vietor]

Yeah, definitely. It's a limited, but it's a good. It's a win and a good day for privacy. I mean like the government was trying to argue that like just demanding just a little tiny taste of your location history for a discrete period of time was not a search, which is just nonsense. And I think the court saw through that because you can learn a ton from everyone's location history. Sotomayor laid that out. I think she talked about how you can see that someone went to the psychiatrist, the plastic surgeon, the abortion clinic, the aids Treatment center, the strip club. She goes on and on and on. Then Kagan argued and then to a

[Jon Lovett]

concert to jack up.

[Jon Favreau]

Were you at the Great American Fair Geofence that place.

[Tommy Vietor]

And then Kagan argued that tracking location data isn't really optional. It's like the price we all pay to use a cell phone. So it was nice to see them have a little techno fluency and understand how this stuff actually works.

[Jon Favreau]

Gorsuch, Kavanaugh, Roberts sided with the liberals. Interesting. Very interesting group people.

[Jon Lovett]

Gorsuch, Gorsuch, there's the other and we'll get to the other ones. But Gorsuch is always is interesting. He's an interesting one.

[Tommy Vietor]

On like tribal rights in particular, Trump

[Jon Favreau]

said that he would fight back on the E. Jean Carroll thing powerfully and strongly. It's like, no you won't. He already transferred $5.5 million to a court controlled account back in 2023. So she's getting paid. That's the end of the road for Trump on that one.

[Jon Lovett]

I can't believe that's the like. I know, I'm glad she's getting her cash money. But man, there were so many avenues for Trump to face some kind of accountability. And him losing 5 million, while I'm glad goes to Eugene Carroll is not high on the list of ways in which he could have faced consequences.

[Jon Favreau]

But there's still an $83 million verdict that he's appealing as well.

[Jon Lovett]

That's one deal in Kazakhstan, right?

[Tommy Vietor]

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[Tommy Vietor]

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[Tommy Vietor]

Well, so what the court says is the FTC is an entity that exercises executive power. The Fed is different because it's supposed to be a non political entity that is insulated from presidential pressure. And they argue that the Fed has to be independent because even the appearance of political pressure could destroy the faith in the US economy. Now, I think the FTC case is very bad. They threw out 91 years of precedent and basically the FTC. The implications go well beyond the FTC. The president can now fire leaders at will from the sec, the Consumer Product Safety Commission, the Equal Employment Opportunity Commission, the National Labor Relations Board, the list goes on.

[Jon Favreau]

Basically everywhere but the Fed.

[Tommy Vietor]

Everywhere but the Fed. And he can sort of paralyze those entities by making them not have enough members, they don't have a quorum, so they can't even meet. So it's quite bad. The Fed is different because monetary policy has to be free from political manipulation and perceived meddling. But even in this case, like ominously for Cook, the court said that Trump could try to fire her again. They just didn't. They said he didn't go through the process. Right. He didn't tell her why she was being fired and given her a chance to rebut the charges.

[Jon Favreau]

Yes, they said that. I think Roberts sort of cordoning off the Fed as like a special case means that the ruling was narrow and that said, okay, they got the process wrong. And so while it's still litigating, she can be on the job, but they still have to prove that she did something wrong.

[Tommy Vietor]

She can be fired for cause.

[Jon Favreau]

Exactly.

[Heather Williams]

Right.

[Tommy Vietor]

Under the Federal Reserve act, the President can only remove a Fed governor if they are fired for cause. And he didn't meet that standard by presenting any evidence.

[Jon Favreau]

So if she doesn't get, if her case goes away, then like, then there's no cause.

[Jon Lovett]

Right. But it won't go away. Ironically, it just puts more pressure on the administration to politically prosecute Lisa Cook until they can claim that she can be fired for cause. What that, what will happen? They leave the door open to kind of evaluating whether or not they've met some threshold for cause, whatever that would mean. It's interesting kind of reading that, going back and forth between the ruling and the dissent because they're all so like mad at each other, which I think is very funny. But then you read Gorsuch, who wrote this, like, really interesting concurring opinion about it. And I see a lot of people today saying, when Democrats win, oh, we'll just put our people in charge and now we'll have that power. But as like the Sotomayor notes, in the dissent, Congress creates the ftc, the court says that these people can be insulated from being fired by the President. And then they give all these independent agencies, not just executive authority. Right. But legislative authority and judicial authority. So Congress creates these independent agencies and they're kind of quasi legislative. Right. They can write rules and regulate and do things that Congress could do. They also do things an executive could do. And the majority decided that given that kind of mix between the authorities, they're going to give all the power to the President. Right. So the President is now taking all the legislative authorities that were granted, all the judicial authorities that were granted, and, oh, when a Democrat wins, we'll have the same authority. But then Gorsuch comes back and says, no, because we're going to look at this again in the future. So in deciding whether or not to allow there to be an independent agency or not, the Court said, no, we'd rather make the President like kind of a supreme authority over all these legislative functions. But if a Democrat becomes President, we'll just come back and say, no one has this authority. We'll strike a bunch of this down.

[Jon Favreau]

That's not what. That's not what the majority opinions are.

[Jon Lovett]

No, no, no. But that's what Gorsuch is saying happens next. And there is going to. But that is what happens.

[Jon Favreau]

It is because Robert's opinion, Robert's argument is it's all unitary executive theory. And they have been. So Robert says the President may remove his subordinates at will because subordinates who exercise the President's power must be accountable to him and he to the people. And that's where it ends. But that.

[Jon Lovett]

But this is the problem, because it's not just the President's power, it's congressional power. The reason there was a balance and the reason it makes sense, and I think this is why Sotomayor and Kagan are so pissed about it, is you're not just giving the President his executive authority, you are stealing power from Congress because Congress delegated some of its authority.

[Jon Favreau]

I agree with that, too. I agree with that for sure. I'm just saying I think Roberts and Kavanaugh, the unitary executive people, would be very comfortable being consistent with a Democratic President on this kind of stuff, which they have shown before as well.

[Jon Lovett]

Except this wouldn't be about where the authority should rest. This would be about saying that.

[Jon Favreau]

Now, I think it's bad no matter what. I don't think Democratic presidents or Republican presidents should have this power.

[Jon Lovett]

But you come back in and then you say, actually, you can't do this because this whole agency shouldn't have been allowed to do this in the first place. So now we're no longer gonna say you still are in charge of this whole agency, but we are now gonna restrict what this agency is allowed.

[Jon Favreau]

That's the Chevron, I think.

[Tommy Vietor]

Leah Lippman, in her conversation with Dan, said she was concerned about it. Kind of hypothetical you're talking about there.

[Jon Favreau]

Love it.

[Tommy Vietor]

I mean, just like one thing that worries me. So you read this comment from Bill Pulte, who tweeted, as I've repeatedly said, I believe Lisa Cook will be indicted for mortgage fraud.

[Jon Favreau]

No shit.

[Tommy Vietor]

This is a case he cooked up as the US Director of Federal Housing. He is now tweeting this attack on her from his new job as the temporary Director of National Intelligence. That is chilling.

[Jon Favreau]

I mean, yeah, the whole thing, I mean, it's nice for Lisa Cook and I. Actually, you know, what we're talking about is who knows what will happen, right, if this comes up again. I think that the upshot of this whole thing is there are no more independent agencies except for the Fed, the one potentially. And so that means that Justice Department, Intelligence, all the rest of them, everything that Trump has done over the last four years now gets to happen again. Like, this is this. This is just. This is what the Supreme. As long as this Supreme Court majority is in place, they believe that. That no one has to be independent except for the Fed.

[Jon Lovett]

Well, and the. The distinction. They're breaking down. Right. Look, it was always the case. There were a bunch of executive agencies that the President was totally in charge of. What they're saying is that these independent agencies are no longer independent, even though those agencies were made incredibly powerful by Congress in ways that assumed that the President would be so. Wouldn't be solely in charge of them. And so, like, the. The. That, to me, is where the kind of like, yes, now FTC looks a lot like the Department of Justice, except the FTC can do more than what the Department of Justice could do.

[Jon Favreau]

Meanwhile, in a very close 54 decision where John Roberts and Amy Coney Barrett sided with the liberals, the Supreme Court ruled in favor of a Mississippi law allowing the state to count mail in ballots that are postmarked by Election Day but arrive after the decision could preempt similar legal challenges by Republicans in at least 14 other states that continue counting ballots that arrive after Election Day. Trump whined about the decision and said it proves the need for Senate Republicans to pass his Save act name dropping the five holdouts on Truth, Social. How meaningful or not do you guys think this is? In the context of the larger Trump assault on voting rights.

[Tommy Vietor]

I mean, I think it allows, like, 30 states to keep their policies in place in terms of how they count mail in ballots. So that's pretty important. I'm sure the ongoing assault on voting rights will continue. I mean, it was a 5, 4 decision. It was Trump's DOJ and the RNC trying to strike down a Mississippi law allowing ballots to be counted. I'm glad to see they made this decision. Just, it feels just like part of a broader process of just constantly chipping away. And maybe this chip didn't come undone, but there will be many more attempts.

[Jon Favreau]

Yeah. So Dan and I talked last episode about how Trump's trying to get the SAVE act passed by refusing to sign the bipartisan housing bill until it is on Monday, Mike Johnson sent Trump the housing bill anyway, which means that it will become law in 10 days unless Trump signs it sooner or vetoes it. The bill passed so overwhelmingly, the Congress could override a Trump veto, though House Republicans are now unclear if they'll have the votes. Just listen to what Florida Representative Randy Fine said on Monday morning.

[Tommy Vietor]

My issue was, if Elizabeth Warren thinks a bill is great, then it probably isn't. And that sort of how I look. But the enthusiasm with which Democrats had for this bill got me spooked. And I didn't come to Washington to work with Democrats. I came to Washington to beat them.

[Jon Favreau]

Here's a message for you.

[Tommy Vietor]

Did you read the bill before you voted for it?

[Jon Favreau]

Probably not. And here's what Trump said on Monday when asked whether he'll sign the bill.

[Tommy Vietor]

What are your plans for the housing bill, Mr. President?

[Jon Lovett]

I don't know. I think it's so unimportant by comparison compared to the Save America Act. When I look at that bill, it's

[Jon Favreau]

a bill, but when I look at

[Jon Lovett]

the Save America act, it's about saving America.

[Heather Williams]

To me, compared to the Save America

[Jon Favreau]

act, just about everything is a big yawn.

[Tommy Vietor]

Wow, he's bored.

[Jon Favreau]

Really cares about housing.

[Jon Lovett]

Bored of the Iran War, bored of housing.

[Jon Favreau]

Just wants to rig elections. How badly do you guys think Trump and Republicans have fucked up the politics of this bill? And what do you guys think of the final product?

[Tommy Vietor]

I mean, the goal is to boost housing supply and affordability. They're going to, like, streamline environmental reviews and encourage development. I'm not an expert on this stuff. It passed with 85 votes in the Senate and 358 votes in the House. Was, like, overwhelming bipartisan support. I will leave it to smarter people to see if it will really solve the job. But like, politically speaking, this is a very important issue to the American people. Like, voters overwhelmingly think housing costs are really important. Huge majorities want Congress to do something about it. The underlying components of the bill, when you peel them out and pull them, are very popular for young people in particular. They feel like they're never going to be able to afford a home. Like 60, 70% of majorities. And so to say that that's a big yawn when it could have been your like, crowning legislative accomplishment on housing as opposed to the SAVE act, which is a thing that people are like 52% think it's maybe a good idea because it's. By the way, there's just not a huge issue in this country of undocumented noncitizens registering to vote or whatever the

[Jon Lovett]

hell he's talking about.

[Jon Favreau]

It's also not going to pass.

[Tommy Vietor]

It's not going to pass.

[Jon Favreau]

Burden the hand. That's what, that's the whole, that's the whole thing.

[Tommy Vietor]

So stupid. Yeah, there's no leverage here.

[Jon Lovett]

It's funny too, because part of it. Right. Is like, this is a housing bill that's about addressing the long term causes of a lack of housing stock and the rising price of housing. There's no like, yeah, being clean fix.

[Jon Favreau]

He doesn't know that. No one's going to feel the effects of the housing bill for years. For years.

[Jon Lovett]

Yeah.

[Jon Favreau]

And if it's a good bill, you

[Tommy Vietor]

can sell it, right?

[Jon Favreau]

You can, you can, yeah. You can try to. Biden administration.

[Jon Lovett]

The Recovery act is divided into three parts, right?

[Jon Favreau]

Yeah, you can try to say it's a good thing.

[Jon Lovett]

But yeah, there was a, there was a little like a mini fight as part of this bill for a, for the details are, are complicated, but basically to try to prevent institutional investors from sitting on houses that a lot of experts thought would have kind of a countervailing effect to what the bill was going to do. It might actually cause housing prices to go up. Senator Brian Schatz, friend of the show, was accused of being a corporate stooge for pointing this out, including by a lot of progressives. And they did manage to kind of change that rule in such a way that it's no longer going to have that effect. And that won the day too, which was, I think, a good victory for the kind of emb abundance people that were arguing that he wasn't being a corporate stooge, he was just talking about basic economics and what the impact would be. But like, this was a bipartisan Bill. Elizabeth Warren fought hard for this bill. A ton of Republicans voted for this bill. It's a rare kind of policymaking victory, like from another era. And of course, right on the one yard line, they were literally putting up the podium and people were speak within, they were speaking at the podium. The event was basically already staff was

[Tommy Vietor]

tweeting out how excited they were.

[Jon Lovett]

Yeah. Caroline Levitt posted about how one of the most important bills ever, something to that effect and he just rips the rug out right from under all of them. And now they are afraid to support it even though it has a veto proof majority because the dear leader says he would rather rig elections.

[Jon Favreau]

I haven't seen these stories yet, but I'm looking forward to the anonymous frontline Republicans in races who were like getting ads ready to tee up the housing bill as part of how they were going to tackle the issue of affordability and work with the other party to show that they're bipartisan because they're in a district that, you know, Kamala Harris won or that, you know, Trump only won by a couple. Just hear what they think about this.

[Tommy Vietor]

And now the response ad is like, big yawn, says the President.

[Jon Favreau]

Okay, so that'll be fun.

[Jon Lovett]

So if he doesn't, if he refuses to sign it and Congress doesn't adjourn, it'll become law. But if they don't want to deal with it, they could adjourn Congress and let the thing die. Is that basically the gist of it?

[Jon Favreau]

What's going to happen in 10 days? It becomes law unless he vetoes it.

[Heather Williams]

If.

[Jon Lovett]

Okay. How would he.

[Jon Favreau]

Okay, yeah, I don't know. The Congress, that's just the, that's. I don't, I don't know. All I've seen is that 10 days, it becomes law in 10 days or he vetoes it. You know, listening to the whole thing there. He's gonna let it become law.

[Jon Lovett]

Yeah.

[Tommy Vietor]

I don't think it's being a baby about it.

[Jon Favreau]

Unless now someone could, who knows, right. He changes his mind on a dime. So something could piss him off between now and when he decides to sign it. But there he sounded like, I'm annoyed that I have to do this, but I threw a tantrum and now I'm just gonna let this bill become law, but I'm not gonna be happy about it. That's sort of what I got.

[Tommy Vietor]

He's just cutting off his nose despite his face. I. Someone gave him really dumb last minute advice about how to use this bill for leverage to get the same backpack.

[Jon Favreau]

It was probably Bill Pulte.

[Tommy Vietor]

Exactly what I was gonna say.

[Jon Favreau]

Yeah. The mortgage. Yeah, because combines his two passions. Mortgage, mortgage, housing and being a dick. Yeah.

[Tommy Vietor]

And he's also, by the way, he,

[Jon Lovett]

he did promise not to sign any new legislation until the SAVE act was passed. He just instantly broke that promise. So in a way, he's actually returning to what he had always said he was going to do.

[Tommy Vietor]

Promise, cap. Promise.

[Jon Lovett]

He's a promise cap.

[Jon Favreau]

No legislation from me.

[Tommy Vietor]

Positive America is brought to you by Common Power with redistricting happening all across the south, the GOP has made it clear that earning Americans votes is the least of their priorities. And after gutting the vra, they've doubled down on their attempts to rig the midterm elections. Common Power believes that Democrats can still take back the House and the Senate by focusing on three things. One, policies that benefit the working class. Two, paying for those policies by taxing billionaires and trillionaires. Three, expanding the Democratic coalition. Their support has already driven major victories for emerging leaders in New York, Texas and Maine. Now Common Power is focused on the general election, working to ensure wins for Democrats nationwide. Common Power is the organizing force behind training and deploying volunteers to door knock for democrats at over 50 key races across battleground states. Vote Save America partnered with Common power in the 2024 election, sending hundreds of volunteers to win important races across the country. As Republicans rely on rigged maps to win, we're relying on people power. For those who refuse to sit this moment out, donate and volunteer with common [e-mail] Crooked that's commonpower.org Crooked Pod Save

[Jon Favreau]

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[Tommy Vietor]

Iconic and edible also. That's a thing. Tastes really good.

[Jon Favreau]

I love Magic Spoon.

[Tommy Vietor]

I do too.

[Jon Favreau]

I kind of want some of that chocolate peanut butter right now. Magic Spoon is easy to find. Just look for Magic Spoon at your local grocery store. And they just rolled out treats nationwide at 7:11. And if you haven't tried them yet, check out Magic Spoon's new protein pastries, a high protein, low sugar take on the classic toaster pastries you grew up with. You can get $5 off your next order, including the protein pastries@a magicspoon.com Crooked that's magicspoon.com Crooked for $5 off. All right, let's talk about the debate inside the Democratic Party, which is likely to keep raging this week as Colorado becomes the next state to hold Primaries on Tuesday. Fifteen term Congresswoman Diana DeGette is in danger of losing to 29 year old DSA member Milat Kiros. Senator Michael Bennett, who's running for governor, is also getting a serious challenge from the left. Republicans are having fun with all of this. Trump spent much of the weekend posting about communism while Democrats offered their takes on the DSA wins in last week's New York primaries. Here's Zoran Mamdani himself, Josh Shapiro and Chris Murphy.

[Jon Lovett]

Josh Gottheimer, a Democratic member of Congress,

[Tommy Vietor]

says many of us believe, as do

[Jon Lovett]

I, if you're a socialist, you are not Democrat. And in fact they put out a manifesto today. Have you seen this thing?

[Jon Favreau]

Sounds pretty socialist to me. I think democratic socialism at the heart

[Jon Lovett]

is pragmatic because if we cannot deliver

[Jon Favreau]

for working people, then what is this for?

[Jon Lovett]

I'm not interested in writing a manifesto or frankly in reading one, I'm interested in delivering. And that's exactly what we've been showing.

[Heather Williams]

Democratic voters in New York chose three candidates backed by Zoram Madani, far left, and Democratic socialist candidates. What message do you take from that about where your party is?

[Jon Favreau]

Well, you know, those were races in

[Tommy Vietor]

individual districts in a whole other state. I think what is important are the people who are making a lot of noise who are engaging in these performative politics have to now figure out how to deliver results.

[Jon Favreau]

I'm not a Democratic socialist, but I do believe that the Democratic Party has been historically way too timid in taking on corporate power. Democrats are not gonna win by defending this version of capitalism, but I think we'll be able to offer ideas on how to dramatically reform it rather than throwing out the entire system. All right, Chris Murphy, doing a little Goldilocks at the end there. I've already said plenty, so maybe you guys can kick us off with your reaction to this debate and what it all means.

[Tommy Vietor]

You weighed in on this?

[Jon Favreau]

I did, yeah.

[Tommy Vietor]

I had a. I didn't notice that.

[Jon Favreau]

A clip from Thursday's pod.

[Tommy Vietor]

Look, for what it's worth, slot me into the Murphy camp. I mean, like, I think my big takeaway from the New York elections is how much voters hate the establishment and the status quo. And I think that is not new information. Every poll we've seen is like, people really hate Trump. They also hate the Democratic Party. Things are not great. These people are pissed. The results, I think, hammer home just how angry voters are and that they are happy to trade a powerful incumbent for something new to demonstrate that anger. Does that mean that every district is going to want the furthest left candidate?

[Jon Lovett]

No.

[Tommy Vietor]

Look who's on the ballot from the Democratic Party in Iowa, for example. They're very different than New York races. That's not surprising at all. I think what's exhausting about this and that you experience is just how much everyone's talking past each other because, like, a lot of people want the same thing and they're labeling it differently. Like, I. I'm sure there are some DSA members who are like classical socialists, like the Marxist Leninist state, but I think most people do not want that. It's certainly not what Bernie Sanders wants. He is talking about redistributing economic power through the democratic process, not a violent Bolshevik revolution. He believes in civil liberties and elections and change through democratic means. And it's a worldview that is a lot closer to the Labour Party in the UK or like Nordic countries than, you know, something radical like Medicare for all the nhs. Right. Like, these are not crazy ideas. But Trump and Republicans say, oh, this is communism. Right? This is all about drumming up, like, Cold War era fears. And that is more politically potent than saying you want a Scandinavian welfare state.

[Jon Favreau]

But I think, yeah, no one goes after the Scandinavian.

[Tommy Vietor]

Well, they got all that.

[Jon Lovett]

Social democracy is the term.

[Tommy Vietor]

Yes, they. In a country with a two party system, this is inevitable. You're going to have a huge range of opinions within the party from DSA to dlc. And I think if we want to effectively fight back against Trump, we're going to have to find a way to work together and kind of bridge some of these gaps and find common Cause on things and you know, which is where the kind of Josh gottheimer kind of you're with us or against us, you're a Democrat or you're a socialist thing. I think it's just reductive and stupid and not helpful.

[Jon Favreau]

Yeah, it's counterproductive.

[Tommy Vietor]

Why are we doing this?

[Jon Lovett]

Yeah, I mean, look, I know that you had sort of said your piece about this, and I, I found very few responses to what you said about trying to persuade you or, or kind of think about what you're saying and try to respond to it in a way that was sort of treating you as you were acting in good faith. Didn't see a lot of that.

[Heather Williams]

Yeah.

[Jon Favreau]

Look, it is the Internet.

[Jon Lovett]

So some of the most liberal districts in the country are feeling like they can have someone who is further to left and they know they're going to win in November and they want that kind of person fighting for them or they want to support the person that Bernie and Mandani got behind because they really like them. They don't have a lot of love for establishment figures. They don't feel like establishment politics has done well for them, even when those establishment figures are to the left. That doesn't mean that Josh Shapiro is not one of the most popular governors in the country or that if there was just a poll out that said who are the most popular political figures? Well, they're Barack Obama and Bernie Sanders. Right. Like it's a complicated, heterodox country and we have to make one big pro democracy coalition. I think that puts responsibility on both sides of this divide. On the Josh gottheimer, Jamie Harrison, James Carville side, you can disagree with people. I think you should be really critical of them. You should say why you disagree. I think Josh Piro actually did this. Well, I disagree. I have strong disagreements. This district, in another state, that's one district. And I'll defend my views and people should defend their own without saying that these people have no place in our coalition. If you are a democratic socialist, you're not Democrat. You don't get to decide that. The Democratic voters in those districts went to the polls and decided the party reflects what the voters want. The voters aren't meant to follow what the party tells them defines a Democrat.

[Jon Favreau]

If you, Imam Donnie had said that somewhere in that interview that I thought was right.

[Jon Lovett]

Right. And if parts of your coalition are further than the left, that then you like well have an argument with them. Figure out the places where you agree and figure out an agenda together. Joe Biden wins the primary in 2020. And actually I thought did a pretty extraordinary job of talking to Elizabeth Warren and Bernie Sanders and kind of finding a way to bring those people into his coalition to the point where they were some of the people advocating for him the most after he blew the debate. So there are, there is a way to bring these sides of the party together. On the other side. It is not a. Just because someone is on your team and you want to and you don't like the mainstream Democrats and you think they're too centrist, doesn't mean that people on the left don't have to answer for some of the dumbest or most heinous things that they've said in the past.

[Jon Favreau]

Oh, careful.

[Jon Lovett]

Well, but, and that, and by the way, that people do. We, we talked about Grand Platinum. People deserve a chance to explain the difference between who they were before they were in public life and who they are now. Now that they have a bigger platform and more responsibility, they deserve that chance. But also, that is a responsibility. You are part of a coalition. Speak your mind, say your piece. But also know that, like, yes, sometimes Republicans are going to take words either in context or out of context and try to paint people that you should also want to win with what you have said in the past. It's just we're, it's, it's, it's collectively doing what is, I think, the work of being part of one big fractious team.

[Jon Favreau]

Yeah. AOC was asked about this in her interview with Jen Psaki. And, you know, she said this without referring directly to Darieliza Chevalier, but she was like, look, I think what happens is, from my experience, when you actually take these jobs and you go into office, the weight of the office and the weight of the job, it does change you and it makes you realize the responsibility you have. Which is what I said on Friday is, look, she has these views that she just articulated a week before the election. Not in her old tweets. A week before the election. But maybe she'll go to Congress and vote in a way that doesn't align with some of the more extreme positions, in which case, great. Everyone deserves the grace to change and prove themselves. Which is like, well, I thought that was pretty, pretty normal to say, I'm not concerned. And again, I'm not concerned about, like, DSA candidates or progressive candidates knocking off incumbent Democrats in deep blue districts. That's what primaries are for. Primaries are good. I think primaries are good no matter what. If the progressive wins, if the moderate wins, they're primaries. They're fine. That's what the voters want. I'm also not concerned about what DSA wins for Dems in more competitive districts. My only advice for those frontline Dems, which I had said on Friday, is don't be afraid to distance yourself from DSA positions that you disagree with. If someone asks you whether you agree with abolishing prisons and police and borders and you don't just say that, say that you don't like the ideas, say that they're terrible, say that they're not that great. Say whatever you want to say. But like, don't be afraid to say that because then folks on the left will be mad at you that you said you didn't like that idea. You don't have to attack the people and try to purge them from the party. You don't have to attack their character, their person. I don't want to do that with anyone who won. But you can disagree with the ideas.

[Jon Lovett]

And by the way, like I also then. And if you and I think there's nothing wrong with saying like I'm not a socialist and I actually think, you know, socialism, I want to figure out whatever a person like a Josh got him or would say to has been their actual point of view. Like, I'm not a socialist. I don't agree with socialist ideas, whatever looks like. But to say like I ca. And therefore I cast you out as a means to protecting what you think the brand should be as opposed to saying. And I look forward to having that disagreement approaching because I want to make my argument for how, for, for, for why I think that it could be

[Jon Favreau]

such a godheimers and then would say that like, all right, let's, let's discuss this. Let's discuss your ideas and have a debate and we can learn to work together. Maybe we can find some common ground on stuff that we do agree on.

[Tommy Vietor]

Yeah, but that, yeah, it's just posturing, a political posturing like the, the, the Gothammer version of this is frustrating. I think the reaction to you that was sort of like how dare you criticize an elected official. I find that so patronizing and stupid because once you're in elected office, like everything is up for grabs. You're going to be criticized for everything. It just is what it is. Also the freak out. Like I think the establishment should be worried about what it means for them electorally, but the people who are like the party's off the rails is going to change everything. Like we heard exactly the same in 2018 when AOC beat Joe Crowley. And there was all this fear mongering about the squad. And then we nominated Joe Biden to be our Democratic nominee in 2020.

[Jon Favreau]

And you know what?

[Tommy Vietor]

Establishment moderates.

[Jon Favreau]

And Joe Biden went out there and said, for all that he did to bring in Bernie and the left, he also said, and I think defund the police is a horrible idea. And he said it like, he articulated it and said it specifically. And the left got really mad at him. But it's probably good that he did that because then people know where Joe Biden stood on that issue and didn't lump him in with the left. The Republicans tried to, but it didn't work.

[Tommy Vietor]

The online reaction to you is just sort of like the most annoying version of an online reaction, which is like, it must have been in bad faith. Like, you know, it means you're dead to them. You're like a shill. You're a corporatist. You should be. Luigi. Like, whatever. Like insane.

[Jon Favreau]

Literally a couple people said I should be sponsors.

[Tommy Vietor]

And it's like, everyone calm the fuck down. It's a political discussion.

[Jon Favreau]

Somebody did a whole video, put me in my picture next to Mike Johnson and said, these. These two are the same.

[Tommy Vietor]

But this is like, we've been saying that for years.

[Jon Favreau]

I know, it's true.

[Jon Lovett]

It's.

[Jon Favreau]

I do like to monitor other people's porn.

[Jon Lovett]

Yeah, that's your kink.

[Tommy Vietor]

Well, Manny, back to our guy.

[Jon Lovett]

Yeah. And. But also by like Mamdani, I mean, we interview. I talked to Mamdani about this directly. Right.

[Jon Favreau]

Like, he's so smart. He gets it.

[Jon Lovett]

But also, by the way, like I'm

[Jon Favreau]

saying, that's the thing. It's like AOC so smart about this.

[Jon Lovett]

He is defending views that I think maybe would be unpalatable to a lot of Americans. But he's the mayor of New York, so he's free to do that. He's evolving on certain things, he's trying to persuade on other things. He did so much work to try to demonstrate to Jewish New Yorkers that he could be relied on as an opponent of anti Semitism without giving an inch on some of his views that

[Jon Favreau]

are anti Israel, including condemning the rally that Chevalier went to.

[Jon Lovett]

Yeah. And so like, he. I do think online is. So it's so toxic. Right. But like, actual organizers, even DSA organizers that are actually, like, trying to do this work, I think probably are not as toxic as what you're getting, though. At the same time, there is. There are people in the real world following people like Scott Weiner around, yelling at them on the streets.

[Jon Favreau]

Let's talk about that then. Scott Weiner, the state senator from San Francisco who's running to replace Nancy Pelosi, was over the weekend surrounded and berated by a gang of hecklers at the city's annual trans march, who told him that his long record of fighting for trans rights was no longer sufficient because of his record on Israel. Let's take a listen, Scott.

[Jon Lovett]

I want to support someone who's so positive on trans rights, but you're a piece of shit on Gaza. How could you do that? How could you betray queers? How could you oppress people? You sucked in queer the moment you started supporting Israel, you piece of shit.

[Jon Favreau]

I just want to read from Wiener's website what his positions are on Israel and Palestine. He has publicly called the Israeli government's action in Gaza genocide, joining Bernie Sanders and Representative Bailent as one of the only three prominent Jewish elected officials in the country to do so. He has never taken any money from aipac. He has voted no on military funding for Israel and he supports Palestinian statehood. So that was because he didn't say the word genocide until January. And Weiner said that he left the march because the hecklers, quote, were so physically and verbally aggressive that it was impossible for me to safely remain in the park. What do you guys think? San Francisco being San Francisco, or is this a bigger deal?

[Tommy Vietor]

No, this is assholes being assholes. I mean, like, I'm fine with confronting elected officials, heckling them, saying whatever, but like, he's in a public space. You can't tell this man to leave. And also they're so threatening there and they sound stupid. Saying here your sexual orientation is predicated on your past comments on Gaza is just like. So I don't know, Scott Weiner, I've never talked to the guy, like, but he is by any objective measure an extremely progressive Democrat who, like, he's probably a touch more moderate than the squad, say, because of, like, housing issues. The people filming this stuff ultimately make their movement look bad. They make Wiener look sympathetic, which I assume is the opposite of what the intention was. And I think they also hand Fox News and Republicans a piece of content that they'll now use forever to make Democrats, especially progressive Democrats, look crazy and aggressive and so soup to nuts. It was just a fucking terrible, terrible way to conduct politics and to treat another human being.

[Jon Lovett]

Yeah, I think if you're following around a. An elected official who is pro gay, pro trans at a trans supporting event and you are yelling at them and saying you're oppressing queers because of your position on Israel, even though your position on Israel is that you believe Israel has committed a genocide in Gaza, then what you're doing is being an anti Semite. If you're following Scott Weiner around, yelling at him in this park, it is because you are being anti Semitic, talking

[Jon Favreau]

about his Zionist handlers, yelling at him about his Zionist.

[Jon Lovett]

You are an anti Semite.

[Jon Favreau]

Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah.

[Jon Lovett]

That is why you are yelling at this man. Whatever you tell yourself, whatever story you tell yourself online about what you believe and why it's justified, that is. That is as pure antisemitism as you can see, and it is corrosive and it's worth calling out. There's a lot of people, like I, you know, when. When someone says that Brad lander in New York 10 won because of anti Semitism against, or that anti Semitism played a role, I find that hard to understand because it is a very Jewish district. Brad Lander is Jewish. Dan Goldman was Jewish. But that doesn't mean that. So I don't like it when antisemitism is used as a cudgel, but that doesn't mean it isn't, like, worth calling out when you see it. And, like, give me a fucking break.

[Jon Favreau]

We live in a world where, like, every single person with a phone has a megaphone now and can do this kind of thing. So I don't think, you know, talking about the people who followed Scott way around, like, they're not going to listen to us or anyone. Right. You're not going to be able to ever stop. Stop people from being assholes and holding up their phone. I do think that it would behoove people on the left and especially people who have been marching and organizing in protests for Palestinian rights and have been right on this issue from the beginning to call that out. Right. Because this is the like, as Tommy said, this is going to be the clip they use to show that Democrats are crazy and all that kind of stuff. And also, it's just, it's good movement politics to be like, yes, we can hold two ideas in our head at the same time, that it is horrendous what the Israeli government has done and that the most important issue is the fact that Palestinians are being slaughtered and now people in Lebanon are being killed. And that is the more important issue. But also, it's still awful that this happened. And in our movement, we don't want that kind of thing, and we don't believe that. I think it's very possible to do that.

[Jon Lovett]

Yes.

[Jon Favreau]

Just didn't see a lot of it.

[Jon Lovett]

No. And that, that being morally outraged doesn't justify treating people terribly and like. It's not obviously these are just random people. You can't. To a few random people following someone around a whole movement can't be held accountable for it.

[Jon Favreau]

And it shouldn't be.

[Jon Lovett]

However, however, it is more than just that. Right. Because you will see people defend following Scott Wiener. You'll see people defend a coffee shop that refuses to serve Dan Goldman. You will see people and you will see people describe any figure that criticizes following around Scott Wiener or criticizes what happened to Dan Goldman as civility politics or kind of or, or performative responsibility made up words. Right. And look, we've made fun of, you know, the red hen alert around, around civility. But, but if, but like being, if you want a movement to succeed, it has to be something that is appealing and, and, and generative and, and, and brings people in and tries to persuade people and treats them in good faith. And that's obviously not what happened here.

[Jon Favreau]

Yeah. All right, when we come back, I'll talk to the DLCC's Heather Williams.

[Tommy Vietor]

Pod Save America is brought to you by Rocket Money. I've told this on the show before, but I realized I was paying for a British only version of some streaming service just to watch one show and then we watch one episode and then we got rid of it. Yeah, it was terrible. Honestly, Rocket Money, it'll save you a lot of money. They'll track your subscriptions, it'll cancel them within the app with just a few taps. In fact, Rocket Money has saved users over 880 million in canceled subscriptions. You can categorize automatic transactions across your accounts and customize categories with tags to help shed light on your spending patterns. Get regular reports on your spending habits. You can even receive real time alerts for large transactions, upcoming bills, refunds and low balance. Consolidate your checking, savings, loans and investment accounts into a single dashboard to give you a clear picture of your finances. Rocket Money is a personal finance app that helps find and cancel unwanted subscriptions, monitors your spending and helps lower your bills so you can grow your savings. Let Rocket Money help you reach your financial goals faster. [e-mail] Crooked that's RocketMoney.com Crooked RocketMoney.com Crooked.

[Jon Favreau]

Heather Williams, welcome to Pod Save America.

[Heather Williams]

Thank you. It's great to be here.

[Jon Favreau]

So you hear state legislatures, there's a firewall against Trump stealing an election and it can sound abstract to people, so maybe you can help make it Concrete, if we get a contested presidential results in 2028, which chambers are the ones standing between a close call and a stolen one? Where's the actual fight?

[Heather Williams]

Oh, that's such a good question. You know, in 2026, we have real opportunities to create new majorities in our presidential battleground states. So think Minnesota, Wisconsin, Michigan, Arizona, Pennsylvania. These are the places that are going to have huge impacts, obviously, on the 2028 presidential. And these are places where we can win majorities in 2026, which will allow us to move legislation as needed to shore up our democracy laws in those states to ensure that we've got a really strong presidential process.

[Jon Favreau]

Yeah, and I think people don't. Maybe not everyone understands, though, probably more people after what happened in 2020, just the power that state legislatures have over the electoral process, over sending delegates of electors to Congress. Maybe you can speak a little bit about that.

[Heather Williams]

Yeah, that's exactly right. The presidential certification process originates in our state. And that alongside with our voting laws, with our election administration, all of that are state actions. And so the more democratic majorities we have, the better our elections are certainly now in this environment. And the opportunities that we have to build that power this year will be sort of immediately put to use. Right. To again, ensure that people's votes are counted, they're counted in real ways, regardless of who wins, that the election is certified and that person becomes president.

[Jon Favreau]

So potential election theft aside for someone who's not familiar with their state legislature or what state legislatures even do, what's a concrete example of something that a Democratic run state legislature has done over the last few years that's actually, you know, changed people's lives?

[Heather Williams]

Oh, the one that I love to talk about is meals for kids in schools, ensuring that every kid has access to a free meal in school. This was something that passed in Minnesota when they had the trifecta. It passed in a number of states since then. It is such a great way to think about how do we nurture our kids in our community, how do we make sure that our resources are going into our future? And it also puts a little more money in people's pockets.

[Jon Favreau]

So you mentioned some of the battleground states. Minnesota, Wisconsin, Arizona. What are the states where Democrats have the biggest opportunities this year? Talk about sort of the map and the target list for you guys.

[Heather Williams]

Yeah, so we think about the map of opportunities in building power in the states. And what that means for us is that we are looking at everything from how do we put Democrats in the negotiating room by breaking the Republican power of a supermajority to how do we make sure that our Democratic governors in states where their legislature is Republican have the veto pen? And how do we, of course, create new majorities, trifectas for the future? So those places that we can create these new majorities, these new trifectas really are centered in those presidential battlegrounds. Again, Minnesota, Wisconsin, Michigan, Arizona, winning just 19 seats in those states will build six new majorities and four new trifectas.

[Jon Favreau]

Wow.

[Heather Williams]

It's amazing, right?

[Jon Favreau]

Fifteen seats.

[Heather Williams]

And that's where the core fight is gonna be. But I think it's important to also mention. Right. That thinking about how do we build power for the long term, how do we start building back Democrats, Particularly in the south, where that break of a Republican supermajority puts Democrats in that negotiating room, it gives them a little more power. It gives them, you know, more access to voters, to constituents, and allows them to build back for the future. Because we know post 2030 that the census comes, reapportionment happens, and we've got congressional districts that are growing in the South.

[Jon Favreau]

Yeah. So this is something I think about all the time now is you have all the opportunities for 2026. There's so many states now where Republicans have taken power in a state legislature and then gerrymandered the state legislature to such a degree that it's almost impossible for Democrats to make any ground. And I think about Wisconsin as an example. I remember when Ben Wickler was the party chair there and he would talk about how it's just really difficult because you can elect a Democratic governor, but they have gerrymandered the legislature so badly that they can't. And ultimately what fixed Wisconsin was state supreme court elections. So in states where Republicans have gerrymandered the legislature, what is the strategy there and how do we make headway in some of those legislatures that are really gerrymandered?

[Heather Williams]

Your Wisconsin example is great. Right. So we are winning statewide or could win statewide in Wisconsin. We could win at the congressional level, although not as much as I think what was possible there. Right. But couldn't flip those state legislatures. You know, I think the strategy is sort of multi pronged. Right. You can't divest in the state legislative races because we do still have legislators there. And those legislators, while maybe not in the majority, do still have some power to band together, to bring some folks together on issues that matter a lot. Right. Particularly when there's a Democratic governor, their assurance that he has the veto pen has been really important. So we can't walk away from the state legislatures just because it's hard. But alongside that in Wisconsin is a great example where the Supreme Court mattered deeply. You know, these Supreme Court races are sometimes partisan, sometimes nonpartisan, but we need to make sure that we let voters know the values of these candidates and that we are thinking about a court strategy alongside our electoral strategy. And then I think the third thing, right, and this varies by state. Wisconsin is not a great example of this. But others are where there's ballot initiative opportunities. That is another way in Michigan, right, we've got a people, not politicians process that put a nonpartisan commission in Michigan that has incredibly competitive legislative seats and chambers. And those are sort of the three anchor ways that I think that you really start to build back.

[Jon Favreau]

One thing that surprised me is I assumed one reason Democrats have been at a disadvantage is because Republicans outspent us on the state legislative level. But in 2024, the Democratic side outspent the RSLC. The Republican counterpart to you guys, roughly 175 million to 49 million, little better than 3 to 1, still lost the Minnesota trifecta in the Michigan House. So beyond money, what are some of the biggest challenges that the party has faced at the state level?

[Heather Williams]

The attention battle, right. These races are, you know, folks know these candidates less. They're often first time candidates, right. They're running for the first time. Their name ID is not great. They don't have a record right. To run on. And that attention fight is really important. And I think the thing when you couple the attention with the money and you think about these battleground states, we have competitive races up the whole ballot. So when you think about a low name ID candidate that's running for state legislature but has a great story to tell, competing for people's time and brain space in the election season is really hard. So I think as much as we can run as tickets, as much as we can support in coordinated campaigns and other statewide efforts, what is happening at our local races, it's really important.

[Jon Favreau]

That's also going to be an issue of sort of the hollowing out of local news and the disappearance of local news. Because if you are reading about politics now, you're reading about national politics. And if you're reading about national politics politics, you're reading about presidential level, maybe congressional level, but probably not much about your state level.

[Heather Williams]

That is exactly right.

[Jon Favreau]

I imagine that in that situation, the ground game field probably has to be even more critical than even sort of the media strategy.

[Heather Williams]

Yes, the direct voter contact by the candidates is the most important. Thing that these races do, these candidates, you know, these districts are small enough in most cases where the candidate can knock the door of every voter in their district. They still live in their districts. So they're going to the grocery store and drop off and the library and, you know, every. Everywhere else alongside voters and constituents. And they are sort of never off duty. And that means that their muscle of communicating and talking about the things they care about, what they believe in, why they're running for office, what's happening nationally, and how they put it in their own words, that's happening all the time. And they're building that muscle, I think we call it now. They're authentic communicators, but truly they're just normal people who are having conversations with their neighbors.

[Jon Favreau]

So the recruitment numbers are really impressive. In Minnesota, I think you guys have filled every district. Kansas has the biggest slate in 30 years. Question I had. How does the recruiting pitch go for a candidate who lives in a district where Republicans routinely win by 20 to 30 points? Because that is a. Getting people to run for office in the first place. Difficult. Getting people to run for office in a place where the climb is very steep. I imagine that's even harder.

[Heather Williams]

It is. You know, this is the thing that I was most nervous about this cycle was, you know, coming out of 2024, starting this year off, how are we gonna get people to run for office?

[Jon Favreau]

Yeah.

[Heather Williams]

And then, of course, we had the horrific assassination of Speaker Hortman in Minnesota. Another reminder of how difficult it is to run for office. It didn't come true. Like, people were really excited to run for office. And I think, you know, we work hard to make sure that candidates across the country have some level of tools and sort of toolkits. Right. To run for office. But I think what we've seen is our ability at this ballot level to connect with voters in all kinds of communities this year and win elections. We've already flipped 30 seats. Some of these have been in ruby red districts. Is a reminder that if we don't show up, if someone doesn't show up, we can't even compete, let alone win. And this really feels like a year where, you know, people are seeing that one way to change the direction of the country is to change the people in power. And you've got two options in that. You vote or you run for office. And we are seeing that all over. It's just incredible.

[Jon Favreau]

I'm sure there's an incredible diversity of candidates that you've recruited, but is there any sort of demographic group or type of candidate or profession that keeps showing up more this cycle compared to other cycles.

[Heather Williams]

You know, it's interesting that you asked this question in part because you know, our candidates tend to be middle class. They tend to be, like I said, first time candidates. They tend to be maybe not your sort of made for TV sort of politician. And that is what is so great about this ballot level. It's what's great about our state legislatures is you've got real people trying to solve real problems. I feel like there is a stronger spotlight on that. And you're noticing it more. It feels just different than what you stereotypically have seen in sort of national politics.

[Jon Favreau]

Student council president.

[Heather Williams]

Exactly.

[Jon Lovett]

To law school.

[Heather Williams]

Yes. Lawyer, right?

[Jon Favreau]

Lawyer, right.

[Heather Williams]

Yeah, exactly. And I think that the value of these candidates is their ability to say, you know, I get what you're dealing with. Here's my story and how I'm dealing with it and how it's challenging for me. This is my own personal antidote of what is happening here. But I get it. I hear you. And like we may have slightly different views of how this can come together, but we can talk about it. And I think that is really what we're seeing in these candidates. It's great.

[Jon Favreau]

Obviously the Democratic Party's sort of national favorability rating is in the basement and yet state legislative Democrats routinely run ahead of the national party brand. What are your candidates doing that the national party can't seem to do?

[Heather Williams]

These candidates are community organizing. Right. They are still talking about the thing that's happening in your backyard. And you know, if you talk to someone who has been in office in the state legislature, you will hear them say like they are problem solvers on behalf of their community. They are connecting constituents with federal agencies that are solving their problem. They're trying to get their trash can that, you know, had gone missing and they hadn't been able to get it back. They are able to take these big policies, I like to use the infrastructure bill as an example and break it down into community impact. You know, the infrastructure bill. What does it mean for our community? It means that this road is going to be fixed in 20 minutes, is going to be cut off your commute time. You're going to have 40 minutes a day back in your life to do whatever it is that you want to do. That ability to really localize the national issues is really the art form of this ballot level. Everything is about your neighbor. And as much as we are a country divided, people still care a lot about their communities and their Neighbors. And that is what separates things.

[Jon Favreau]

For the person listening right now who's surrounded by Trumpy neighbors and is sure Democrats have no shot where they live, what do you say to that person? What should they do?

[Heather Williams]

Get involved in your state legislative race. Seriously. It will, it will broaden what you think, it'll broaden your view of your neighbors.

[Jon Lovett]

Right.

[Heather Williams]

But it'll also give you that opportunity to have those conversations. You know, these legislative candidates are surrounded by friends and family who are volunteering and talking to voters on their behalf, persuading them all the way to the end of the election. And it is in conversation that we move the needle together. You know, even those of us that are far apart, maybe not on the Super Maga end of things, but on the disillusioned Republican that no longer feels like they have a place in Trump's Republican Party, there is a real opportunity to dialogue and have that conversation and find some level of common ground and honestly just listen and hold space for people. And that is what is being craved everywhere.

[Jon Favreau]

Last question.

[Heather Williams]

Yeah.

[Jon Favreau]

Give us the state legislative chamber. People aren't paying enough attention to that. You'll be watching on election night and what it'll tell us if it goes our way.

[Heather Williams]

Ooh, man. Okay, so I'm gonna take this in two ways. One, the one that I care most about is Minnesota. I just, it's my home state.

[Jon Favreau]

You guys have been through a lot.

[Heather Williams]

We've been through a lot there. We just. I really wanna get that one back. So that's my personal take on it. I think, you know, if we are having just an incre year, there's real things happening in Arizona.

[Jon Favreau]

Yeah, I saw Arizona in the list and I was like, oh, wow, how do we go from Arizona being so red to now two Democratic senators? Katie Hobbs is governor and I guess the legislature is up for grabs too.

[Heather Williams]

It very much is. And I think this starts to tell us that big things are happening. But we're in an environment right now where if the election was held today, I think we've got roughly a plus four environment that we're seeing at our ballot level. That means that we could flip as many as 600 plus seats. There is a lot in play and these races are often run on the margins. So we've got this big spreadsheet, as everyone does on election night, that we watch. And it is, it's going to be exciting.

[Jon Favreau]

Heather Williams, thanks for joining POD Save America and good luck out there.

[Heather Williams]

Thank you.

[Jon Favreau]

That's our show for today. Thanks to Heather Williams for coming on. Dan and I will be back with a new show on Friday. Pod Save America is a crooked media production. Our show is produced by Austin Fisher, Saul Rubin, McKenna Roberts and Farah Safari, with Rhea Churlin, Elijah Cohn and Adrian Hill. Our team includes Matt de Groat, Ben Hethcote, Jordan Kantor, Charlotte Landis, Carol Pelaviev, David Toles, Mia Kelman, Ryan Young and Naomi Singel. Our staff is proudly unionized with the Writers Guild of America East.