How To Survive a Dictatorship (feat. Wagner Moura)

Summary

Pod Save America Episode 1121: "How to Survive a Dictatorship" (feat. Wagner Moura)

Date: February 15, 2026
Host: Alex Wagner
Guest: Wagner Moura (actor, director, activist; star of "The Secret Agent")

---

Episode Overview

This episode features a candid, wide-ranging conversation between host Alex Wagner and acclaimed Brazilian actor Wagner Moura, known for "Narcos" and Oscar-nominated for "The Secret Agent." The dialogue dives deep into the film's themes of dictatorship, resistance, masculinity, generational trauma, and the role of art in combating authoritarianism. Drawing connections between Brazil’s history and the current American political climate, Wagner and Moura discuss the dangers of creeping autocracy, the responsibility of artists and citizens, and the hope found in cultural and political resistance.

---

Main Discussion Themes

1. “The Secret Agent” and Echoes of Dictatorship

• Brazil’s Civil-Military Dictatorship (1964–1985):
  Moura’s film "The Secret Agent" revisits a dark era of Brazilian history, highlighting the involvement of civilian institutions along with the military.

  • [07:21] Moura: "I love this about films because films are always like an encounter between what an artist wants to say ... with the present."
  • [08:38] Moura: "...now to see the film being released in Europe and in different countries ... it's interesting, the discussions about how Franco's name is coming back to young people..."

• Parallels to Current U.S. & Global Politics:
  Wagner underscores the film's resonance with rising authoritarian tendencies worldwide, especially in the U.S.

  • [05:26] Wagner: "...a really perilous time for anybody who dares to think freely ... all of it has a real echo with some of the stuff we're dealing with today here in America."

2. Masculinity, Power, and Socialization

• Strongman Archetypes:
  Moura reflects on how authoritarian regimes often depend on a cult of toxic masculinity, connecting it with police brutality and recent American tragedies.

  • [10:10] Moura: "I think there is an idea of masculinity going on in the world right now ... the idea of the macho man that's gonna solve the problem."
  • [14:23] Moura: "It's about values ... what kind of values you pass along to the new generations. Because Secret Agent is a film about generational trauma..."

• Raising Sons in Turbulent Times:
  Both discuss their experiences as parents and fears about the values being inherited amid political uncertainty.

  • [13:18] Moura: "...what kind of values we are passing along to our sons."

3. Generational Trauma and Social Memory

• Amnesty and National Amnesia:
  Moura details how Brazil's 1979 Amnesty Law enabled collective forgetting, impeding justice and allowing the seeds of future authoritarianism.

  • [15:49] Moura: "...79 we had a law called the Amnesty law that basically forgave torturers and killers ... it's like the dictatorship forgiving themselves."
  • [16:59] Moura: "If trauma can be passed along generations ... values can too."

• Blanket Pardons as Ominous Warnings:
  Wagner draws a parallel to potential Trump pardons in the U.S.

  • [15:49] Wagner: "Here we call it a blanket pardon. And everybody should be expecting more of those when Trump is on his way out of office..."

4. Technology, Disinformation, and Authoritarian Power

• Tech Oligarchs & Disinformation:
  Moura voices concern about the alignment of technology giants with far-right power, and the erosion of shared realities.

  • [17:29] Moura: "...the alignment of Facebook or whatever ... these guys with the far-right ... They have a project themselves."
  • [18:23] Wagner: "...they're going to get increasingly powerful as artificial intelligence becomes more of our everyday reality..."

• Post-Truth & Divided Realities:
  Moura worries about the loss of shared facts, and the increasing polarization of truth.

  • [27:35] Moura: "The idea that the truth is over, or the Post truth ... we are not living in the same mental space."
  • [28:01] Wagner: "They think the world is operating in a different fashion."

5. Resistance—a Duty and a Risk

• What Resistance Looks Like:
  Drawing from Brazilian and American experience, Moura highlights the importance of civil disobedience.

  • [22:09] Moura: "Authoritarianism is ... a reality in Brazil ... But there must be resistance, civilian resistance. And I'm not talking about guerrilla fighters... but civil disobedience."
  • [23:44] Moura: "...this is a very important moment, I think, for that kind of resistance."

• State Violence and Reputation:
  Discussion of the murders of Renee Nicole Goode and Alex Preddy, and how oppressive regimes kill memory as well as people.

  • [25:55] Moura: "There are things that cannot be forgotten, things that cannot be ... forgiven ... when you kill someone twice, you know, because you kill the person and then you kill their reputation."

6. Art, Representation, and the Power of Story

• Why Fascists Fear Artists:
  Moura sees art as vital to resistance, not merely for what is said, but for what is done and shown.

  • [51:14] Moura: "...Any fascist government, they attack journalists, they attack artists ... with artists, I don't think that they are afraid of what we say publicly. They are afraid of what we do."

• Representation and Stereotypes:
  Moura reflects on rejecting stereotypical roles and the importance of authentic Latino representation.

  • [55:34] Moura: "I don't want to do anything that would be ... that would represent my people in a way that would be stereotype ... representation matters a lot."
  • [56:17] Moura: "It's so important ... a Mexican little boy ... go like, oh my God, there's this dude speaking with that accent and it's in the Star Wars world. I belong to that too."

• The Role of Film in National and Global Self-Reflection:
  Both agree on the role of film in helping societies see themselves critically and empathetically.

  • [68:19] Moura: "No country develops without [art]. So the false dichotomy of, like, hospitals or films, it's stupid ... we need films, we need books, we need to see ourselves..."

7. Personal Risk and Backlash for Speaking Out

• Threats in Brazil:
  Moura details the real dangers of being an outspoken artist, including threats and increased security.

  • [32:18] Moura: "When I did ... Mariguela, ... under Bolsonaro's government, we received many death threats ... we had to have metal detectors at the door ..."

• Uncertainty in America:
  Moura describes the anxiety of being an immigrant artist during the Trump era, openly asking what he'd do if confronted by ICE.

  • [39:13] Moura: "I've been asking myself, what would I do?"
  • [40:28] Moura: "If ICE comes, fuck. I don't know what I'd do."

• The Right Moment for Outspokenness:
  Moura and Wagner agree now is the time for those who can safely speak out, to do so.

  • [48:07] Moura: "...if there's a moment to go out there and say shit, I think it's now."

8. Cultural Elites, Corruption, and Power

• Epstein, QAnon, and Elite Corruption:
  Moura reflects on the transpartisan nature of corruption and conspiracies, noting cultural complicity.
  • [44:57] Wagner: "...what do you think of all that? ... the corruption of the elites ..."
  • [45:54] Moura: "For me ... every time a president in Brazil ... tried to do something about [inequality], this person got ousted ..."

9. Optimism, Generational Values, and the Future of Art

• Passing Down Hope and Values:
  In the face of generational trauma, Moura is hopeful that positive values can also be inherited and reinforced through culture and storytelling.

  • [16:59] Moura: "If trauma can be passed along generations ... values can too."
  • [66:15] Wagner: "...one of the ways you remind people ... of who we are ... is through art ... and that's really hopeful."

• Hollywood’s Potential:
  Moura remains cautious but optimistic about film’s potential to mirror and inspire resistance, even amid technological and political upheaval.

  • [63:08] Moura: "I'm very bad with these predictions ... I can see that the AI thing is ... moving so fast ... but artists will keep doing our thing ... It's just what we do."

---

Notable Quotes & Moments

On Parallels Between Past and Present

• Wagner Moura (07:21):
  "Films are always like an encounter between what an artist wants to say with a very particular [moment] ... with the present."
• Alex Wagner (05:26):
  "All of it has a real echo with some of the stuff we're dealing with today here in America."

On Civil Resistance

• Wagner Moura (22:09):
  "...there must be resistance, civilian resistance ... I'm not talking about guerrilla fighters ... but civil disobedience."

On Forgiving Atrocities

• Wagner Moura (15:49):
  "...it forgave all torturers and killers and people that did despicable things ... it's like the dictatorship forgiving themselves."

On Technology and Truth

• Wagner Moura (17:29):
  "The alignment of Facebook or whatever ... with the far right ... They have a project themselves."
• Alex Wagner (28:01):
  "People just want information ... who confirm that the way they think and see things is the right way. And anything that disrupts that is rejected as false ..."

On Art as Resistance

• Wagner Moura (51:14):
  "What fascists are afraid of is ... not what we say publicly. They are afraid of what we do."

On Generational Values

• Wagner Moura (16:59):
  "If trauma can be passed along generations ... values can too."

On Personal Risk

• Wagner Moura (32:18):
  "When I did ... Mariguela … under Bolsonaro's government, we received many death threats ..."

---

Key Timestamps

• 03:54 – 08:38: Personal reflections on parenthood, the making of "The Secret Agent", Brazil’s dictatorship, and art’s resonance across time.
• 10:10 – 14:23: Discussion of masculinity, state violence, and generational trauma.
• 15:49 – 18:23: Forgiveness for past atrocities, generational memory, and the impact of social media and tech oligarchs on contemporary politics.
• 22:09 – 25:55: The necessity of resistance and parallels between Brazilian and American state violence and reputational destruction.
• 27:35 – 29:39: The erosion of shared reality, “post-truth,” and dangers of polarized media ecosystems.
• 30:01 – 33:55: The personal risks of political outspokenness, backlash under Bolsonaro, and psychological toll.
• 34:38 – 39:43: Day-to-day life under dictatorship or autocracy; the normalization of repression; Trump’s open embrace of oil-driven intervention.
• 51:14 – 56:42: Art as true resistance; on-screen representation; impact of seeing Latinos in mainstream global franchises.
• 63:08 – 66:15: Future of Hollywood and art under technology and political pressure; optimism for art’s vital role.
• 68:19 – 71:12: Art and culture as nation-building; false dichotomy of public funding for the arts vs. other social needs.

---

Conclusion & Reflections

The episode stands as both a warning and a rallying cry. Wagner Moura’s personal and political insights, combined with Alex Wagner's probing questions, offer listeners a powerful meditation on the cyclical nature of authoritarianism, the fragility of democracy, and the enduring power of art. The conversation moves fluidly between the personal (parenting, immigrant anxieties, career decisions) and the political (resistance, memory, disinformation, racism), urging listeners—especially artists and those with platforms—to "pick a side" and participate actively in the struggle for democratic values, because “if trauma can be passed down generations, so can hope and values” ([16:59]).

---

For those who haven’t listened, this episode offers profoundly relevant, engaging reflections on art, politics, identity, and resistance—with a sense of urgency and hope rooted in lived history and personal conviction.

---

End of Summary

Transcript

[Alex Wagner]

I didn't realize I was wasting $415 a month until I downloaded Rocket Money. I thought I had my finances under control until the app laid out all my spending and categorized it for me. Takeout shopping and unused subscriptions were quietly draining my account, and as a result, my savings took a backseat. But Rocket Money doesn't just tell you what you're wasting money on. It takes action to save you money. First, the app looks at your income and monthly expenses and and calculates how much you can safely spend each day to stay under budget. Rocket Money also fines and cancels unwanted subscriptions for you, and even negotiates better rates on your bills so you have more money in your pocket. On average, Rocket Money members can save up to $740 a year when using all the app's premium features. Users love the app with over 186,000 five star ratings. It's time to simplify your finances and take control of your Money. Go to RocketMoney.com Cancel to get started. That's RocketMoney.com Cancel, right? RocketMoney.com Cancel.

[Brian Tyler Cohen]

This is Brian Tyler Cohen, host of the no Lie podcast, which is part of Crooked Media. You've likely seen my videos online or watched me torture Tommy Vitor as part of our series on YouTube, but this week I've got a really exciting episode. I'm interviewing the 44th President of the United States, Barack Obama. So if you want to tune in and hear what he's got to say, including a definitive answer as to whether or not aliens are real, make sure to listen by searching for no Lie with Brian Tyler Cohen on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you listen to podcasts.

[Alex Wagner]

Hi, welcome to Pod Save America. I'm Alex Wagner, sometimes host of Pod Save America, but also host of Runaway Country. This week we have a really special interview. I'm talking to Wagner Mora, who you may recognize from his turn playing Pablo Escobar and Narcos, which was amazing, but he is nominated for Best Actor at the Academy Awards. The picture he is in, the Secret Agent, is also nominated for Best Picture, and it is an incredible film which you should all see if you haven't already. And what brings us together today is the talk of dictatorship, because the Secret Agent focuses a lot on a period of Brazil's history when dictatorship was the order of the day. And the film is set in the 1970s. And what you will notice in that film is the eerie echoes with the society we are living in today. It's not quite as overt, but certainly the freedoms that are being infringed upon, the targeting of perceived enemies. All of it has a real echo with some of the stuff we're dealing with today here in America. And, and Wagner Mora is an incredible actor, but also a real deep thinker about politics both here and in his home country and sort of what this moment means for artists and people who are keen to resist tyranny. So it's a really good conversation. I hope you check it out. This is Wagner Mora and me, Alex Wagner, talking in politics. Take a listen. I did not believe this could happen and I am so thrilled to have Wagner Mora on the POD Save America Sunday show. This is a real delight. I am a big fan of your work, which is. I know what everybody says to you when these things start, but I really mean it. And you obviously have the best name in Hollywood.

[Wagner Moura]

Thank you so much. Thanks for having me. It's a pleasure. I was looking forward to doing this.

[Alex Wagner]

Really. You've been doing so much. I can't believe you really wanted to do an hour long interview with me, but I'll take it.

[Wagner Moura]

I know, totally. Because, you know, I think it's going to be a different one, this one.

[Alex Wagner]

Yeah, it's definitely going to be a different one.

[Wagner Moura]

And I'm looking forward to doing something.

[Alex Wagner]

Oh, I was gutted by the movie. I was gutted by it. I did not all. There's so many scenes I'm not going to. I'm really going to try and not give spoilers, but there's so many levels. It's gutting on a personal level where it's like the relationship between father and son. I have a kid, I have two boys, they're six and eight. You have three boys, right?

[Wagner Moura]

Yeah, I miss that age.

[Alex Wagner]

Oh, no, you don't.

[Wagner Moura]

No, no, trust me, you can. It's interesting because each age is a different challenge, but it's also a different kind of. I see photos of them when they were 6 and 8. I was like, oh my God, I hate my kids.

[Alex Wagner]

So I hate them. I mean, I really was like, I think boarding school is a great day for that today. I was like, it's the day. It's the. This is. They finally pushed me over the edge. They actually stormed out of the house like 15 minutes ago in my winter clothing with a pack of Girl Scout cookies and some Gatorade. And they were like, we're leaving, we're done here. And I was like, goodbye, goodbye.

[Wagner Moura]

And they will come back.

[Alex Wagner]

Yeah, calorically. I don't think that's Going to be enough. But it might be so great. So it was. It's got. It's like. It's so visceral on so many levels. But obviously, to watch that movie, which is about a very specific and dark period in Brazil's history, the military dictatorship that ran from, I think, 64 to 85.

[Wagner Moura]

Yeah.

[Alex Wagner]

Not the end of strongmen leading Brazil by any stretch of the imagination, but it's a really perilous time for anybody who dares to think freely or has inclinations and impulses towards democratic systems. And it's chilling. I mean, I kind of wonder, you started filming this. What year did you start filming this?

[Wagner Moura]

We shot this in 24. I'm so bad with these dates, but. Yeah, like, June. Yeah. July 2024, I think.

[Alex Wagner]

I mean. Okay, so let's talk about this a little bit. You've characterized that in previous interviews. You've characterized that period as a civil military dictatorship. Oh, my God. I'm so sorry. Hold on. That's them calling me from upstairs.

[Wagner Moura]

Yeah, because they ran away and now they're calling you.

[Alex Wagner]

They're back. I'm so sorry.

[Wagner Moura]

I have three kids. I totally get it.

[Alex Wagner]

I'm back. I'm so sorry.

[Wagner Moura]

Are they all right? Alex? Are they okay? How are they?

[Alex Wagner]

Who cares? Just like. I don't even. I just. Like, they. They've been slipping notes under my door. I just. Okay.

[Wagner Moura]

And they were fine. Do they work together? Like, are they, like, a good.

[Alex Wagner]

Right now, when they're not clawing each other's eyes out, they're united in their rage.

[Wagner Moura]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. If there's one person that understands that, that's me.

[Alex Wagner]

Trust me, it's the Wagner in all of us.

[Wagner Moura]

Okay, the Wagner thing. Yeah.

[Alex Wagner]

Okay. So you've characterized this period in Brazil's history as a civil military dictatorship because both there was a political organization, but also elites and civilian institutions were complicit in all of this. And I kind of wonder, as you think about that period and you look at the period we are living through right now here in the United States, where you live, and you see the capitulation of law firms and universities, and to some degree, private business, or at least the wealthiest among us, how do you sort of reconcile the movie that you made and the reality in which you live?

[Wagner Moura]

It's interesting because this. I love this about films because films are always like an encounter between what an artist wants to say with a very particular. Because we shot the film in 2024, we could have. This could have been shot, like, in 23, sometimes films, they take time to be released. So when we release a film, it's the encounter of that will. That thing that an artist wanted to say two years, three years, four years ago with the present. And I always think that this is an interesting thing. For example, I directed a film called Mariguela, right. About a freedom fighter in Brazil, a real character. And I had to release the film under Bolsonaro's government, which was crazy, to release a film about a guy who was fighting against a dictatorship under the government of a man who praised the dictatorship and censored my film. So it's interesting to see that now. For example, I love the fact that the film is. The secret agent is being released in Brazil now under Lula, which is a very democratic.

[Alex Wagner]

Yeah, different guy.

[Wagner Moura]

A very different guy. I mean, I'm. I mean, it's hard to say these things with politicians, but I'm a fan. I think Lula is a fantastic character of Brazilian history, but also. Exactly. And now to see the film being released in Europe and in different countries of Europe, like in Spain, it's interesting, the discussions about how Franco's name is coming back to young people, you know, as if, like, maybe there was this strong president back then that was doing so. And here in the U.S. of course, it's interesting because when you do the Q and A's, for example, when you talk to journalists, you end up learning a lot about the film that you did or, like, having insights about. I've been learning about this secret agent just by listening to American audiences, for example, like, kind of questions that they do. So. Yeah, of course. And that's how it was supposed to. This is supposed to be, right? Like, these parallels, these connections with the present, with what's going on right now.

[Alex Wagner]

Did you. I mean, obviously you were thinking about Brazil when you made the film, but were you thinking about the United States? I mean, was that something you conceived of? You filmed it in 2024, before Trump had won. So obviously, things could have been really quite different once the film was released. But we are where we are. I mean, did you think about our flirtation with. And now outright embrace of autocracy?

[Wagner Moura]

Yeah, I think the idea of strong governments, of strong men. I think there is an idea of masculinity going on in the world right now, that. That, you know that. And that was how it was back then with Pinochet and Sheili, with Hitler, with, you know, the idea of the macho man that's gonna solve the problem. I was very impressed when I saw the thing that really, of course, was when Alex Peretti was killed by ICE in Minneapolis. Of course, that image was so horrible and so strong. But while I was watching what I could, my brain was like. I could see two different kind of masculinity. They're very clear to me. Like, there was a man that put his body in front of a woman or a person that needed his help trying to protect her. And then there was these other men that were pure rage and brutality. And you could see. I mean, it's. Maybe it's just a man, actually, but I could go and look at these men and go, like. And kind of see all the fragility that they carried with them, you know, all the issues that these men were carrying with them in order to do what they did to that other human. To the other human beings. So, yeah. So maybe I'm. I'm traveling, like. But I think that we are living in a moment where. Yeah. It's a discussion about. There is a big thing about masculinity.

[Alex Wagner]

Yeah. And that's in the movie, too. I mean, there are these moments where it's like, your name's Bobby. What kind of name is Bobby? Of course, they say it so lyrically and mellifluously in Portuguese, but, you know, and it's like, this is the 70s. And it's like, well, what the fuck? Bobby's a pretty masculine name, as far as I know. But this constant battle we seem to have through the ages, at least in modern society, around what makes a man. And so much of politics is driven by. And then I'm sure, as an actor, it's something you, as a man must confront in the roles that you play, too. Right. This, like, war, these warring ideas about what makes a man and how. I mean, I don't like how. How much time do we have to spend talking about men in the. In the world.

[Dan Pfeiffer]

Right.

[Alex Wagner]

But it is so determinative in. In terms of, like, society and social outcomes.

[Wagner Moura]

Yeah.

[Dan Pfeiffer]

And.

[Wagner Moura]

And we both have sons. Right, Alex.

[Alex Wagner]

Yeah. A lot of them. Too many, one would argue.

[Wagner Moura]

It's five just between us.

[Alex Wagner]

Five between the two of us.

[Wagner Moura]

So it's what it is also to. Yeah. What kind of values we are passing along to our sons.

[Alex Wagner]

Can I interrupt you for a second? Because you mentioned Alex Preddy, and I know you meant you've talked about this before, but you've talked about Renee Nicole.

[Wagner Moura]

Good.

[Alex Wagner]

And Alex Preddy as being kind of similar to the character you play in terms of outcome and, I guess, tragedy. Can you talk a little bit More about that. And I don't want to ruin any endings, but I just wonder how you see a kinship between the person that you play in this movie that's set in 1977 and what happened on the streets of Minneapolis in the year 2026.

[Wagner Moura]

Yeah, I think we are. We're discussing. It's about values. But I was. Now I got a little lost because I wanted to answer your previous question about.

[Alex Wagner]

About masculinity.

[Wagner Moura]

Yeah, about. Yeah, because I'll go back to.

[Alex Wagner]

Yeah, of course.

[Wagner Moura]

But in the film, in the Secret Agent, there is something also about. There is a father and son thing in the film going, yeah, because my character has a son, you know, but the, the chief of police of the film has also. Also has two sons and the killers that are. That are trying to find my character. It's like a father and son thing too. So now going. I think I'm going to make a bridge between these. The two things. And it's about values, I think, and what kind of values you pass along to the new generations. Because Secret Agent is a film about generational trauma and how these things can be passed along within an entire country. Brazil suffered of. Of generational trauma, I think, throughout our entire history. In 79, you mentioned that the dictatorship ended in 85. In 79 we had a law called the Amnesty law that basically forgave torturers and killers. And it's like the detectorship forgiving themselves. It forgave all torturers and killers and people that did despicable things.

[Alex Wagner]

Here we call it a blanket pardon. And everybody should be expecting more of those when Trump is on his way.

[Wagner Moura]

Out of office like that. And so people that made people sort of like Bolsonaro himself would never have been possible, I think, as a president if it wasn't because of that law, you know, that affected the memory of an entire country that was like, there are young people in Brazil that didn't even know that there was a dictatorship in the country. Or people would go like, oh, maybe it wasn't that bad. Again, going back to the first conversation, things that when we were talking about the time film is released. It's also interesting that this film is being released in Brazil in a moment where finally Brazil is sort of getting even with its memory. When we sent Bolsonaro to jail, we sent military people that attempted against democracy in Brazil to jail. And I think that just to try to put it all together, I think it has to do. And I said when I won the Golden Globes that if trauma can be passed along generations. Values can too.

[Alex Wagner]

That's so important. Right?

[Wagner Moura]

Yeah. How are we. Yeah, how can we. Exactly. And I think it comes to how are we educating our kids and how the society. How are the crisis of information that we are going through in society, the alignment of the tech oligarchs with the power. That's the thing that scares me a lot in the US because I only kind of started to realize that recently. I'm not an Internet guy. I'm not on social medias.

[Dan Pfeiffer]

I'm not.

[Wagner Moura]

But I only understood the alignment of Facebook or whatever. These guys with the far right, with the right and with the republics and with the power in the way that they are now and they all. They have a project themselves. And I didn't know that because back then, I guess like 10 years ago, technology and social media, these things were kind of like a world to be explored even for progressive ideas. Right. How can we connect? How can we share ideas? How can the world be connected? And I think that this idea just disappeared in my mind. It's very clear to me right now that this is the disalignment is what it is.

[Alex Wagner]

Yeah. And they're going to get increasingly powerful as artificial intelligence becomes more of our everyday reality. Right. The world is going to be in the hands of tech billionaires who've proven in this hour that they have no moral code, which is a terrifying thing.

[Wagner Moura]

It's a terrifying thing.

[Jon Favreau]

This podcast is sponsored by Strawberry Me. Let me ask you something. You think LeBron, Patrick, Mahomes or Serena got to the goat status by guessing? No, they had coaching. Every pro athlete has a specialized coach watching their form, calling the plays and finding the blind spots they can't see themselves. That is exactly how they win championships. Yeah, like a little coach named Bill Belichick who's just snubbed, what the hell, by the NFL hall of Fame. If he's not a first ballot hall.

[Dan Pfeiffer]

Of Fame, that's crazy.

[Jon Favreau]

Literally no one is. She should work for Strawberry on me and help out other people. So why are you trying to win in your career without a coach? You're grinding away. You're hoping for a promotion, trying to guess the right moves. That is amateur hour. You need a strategist. You need Strawberry me. I don't care if you're Tom Brady. You need your Bill Belichick. Strawberry Me matches you with a professional career coach who breaks down your game film. They help you negotiate that raise, navigate the politics, and execute a game plan that actually works. And if you're wondering about the cost, think about it. One raise, one promotion and this coaching pays for itself 10 times over. That is the best ROI in the game. Stop riding the bench in your own life. Go to Strawberry me. Crooked Go today and get 50% off your first coaching session. Strawberry me. Because pros don't guess. They get coached to win.

[Dan Pfeiffer]

Pod Save America is brought to you by Uplifting desk movement equals mindset. The allnew Uplift V3 standing desk transforms your desk into a productivity engine. The V3 combines the best of Uplift's V2 and V2 commercial into one stronger, smarter frame. Redesigned feet and steel reinforcements make this the most stable standing desk yet. Assembles in minutes. No stress, no mess. The new flex mount cable manager comes with every desk to keep cords hidden and tidy up upgraded everything. Speed, stability, ergonomics and design. Ultimate customization options with the most extensive range of desktop styles and accessories in the industry. We got not one, not two, but three Uplift desks in the office that we share. Me and Tommy love it. And you walk in, we're all sitting, sometimes we're all standing. Sometimes you get a combo. Some of us are sitting, some of us are standing. You just press the little button, it goes up and down and the desk just. It looks really cool too. I love it. It's the best desk I've ever had. Does it?

[Jon Favreau]

It also does a good job as like a cup holder. It's like very like well designed ergonomically. There's stuff for all your cords and wires. You know, it just doesn't, it doesn't look cluttered.

[Dan Pfeiffer]

It's nice. Sings you a lullaby, puts you to sleep. Yeah, it's great.

[Jon Favreau]

Gives you a big hug, tells you he loves you.

[Dan Pfeiffer]

Transform your workspace and unlock your full potential with the all new Uplift V3 standing desk. Go to upliftdesk.com PSA and use our code PSA to get four free accessories, free same day shipping, free returns and an industry leading 15 year warranty that covers your entire desk plus an extra discount off your entire order. That's U P l I f T-E-S-K.com PSA for this exclusive offer. It's only available through our link.

[Alex Wagner]

I do want to get, I mean I want to go, I want to go to the ideas of Renee Nicole Goode and Alex Preddy because you made this film in 2024 and then these two people were murdered on video in Minneapolis in 2026. And I know you've said you feel there's a through line between what happens and what happened to people in Brazil and what happens to your character in the Secret Agent, and what is happening to Americans like Preddy and Good in this day and age? Can you talk a little bit more about that?

[Wagner Moura]

Yeah, listen. Authoritarianism is. I'm not an expert in that field, but I lived in a country that had not only one dictatorship, but some. Our history is full of coup d' etats and authoritarianism and violence and other beautiful things, too. But this is a reality in Brazil. Bolsonaro is a manifestation of these forces that are part of what our country really is. And what I understood or what I understand about this, especially when we were under the government of. Of a fascist a president, is that. And also, too, going back to the books and reading about authoritarian regimes is that there must be resistance, civilian resistance. And I'm not talking about guerrilla fighters or armed resistances or anything like that, but civil disobedience, basically what people in Minneapolis were doing, you know, and look what they got.

[Alex Wagner]

I mean, we're recording this on the day that Tom Homan, who was brought in to take the reins from the psychopath Greg Bevino and Kristi Noem is announcing they're gonna withdraw ICE agents. Operation Metro Surge is gonna be wound down, which is a testament to the bravery and the tenacity and the organization of these moms and dads and neighbors in Minneapolis.

[Wagner Moura]

Exactly. And that's. Exactly. That's the perfect example. You know, I think that this is what has to be done. Just sometimes just record something or blow a whistle or, like, it's something that shows to a wannabe authoritarian or an authoritarian government that they will face some sort of resistance. Otherwise, they just roll over, and it's real fast. That's the only thing that I can say. Yeah. For the experience of living in a country with that kind of. Where that kind of thing happened many, many times. And we almost had that, like, in a very. We kind of had it with Bolsonaro. But if he had a second term the way Trump is having. Because we all know that the second terms are. That's when they go. Because it's basically the population saying, we saw what you did. We liked it. Go for it. You know, so this is a very important moment, I think, for that kind of resistance.

[Alex Wagner]

The other thing that strikes me in terms of parallels is the main character that you play in the movie. Part of the struggle is getting at the truth of what happened to him and what his life was like and who he actually was, his character. And I would. One of the most revolting parts of both the Renee Nicole Goode death and Alex Preddy was the swiftness with which the federal government decided to destroy their humanity and their memory and their legacy. And just how unhidden that just. It was all happening in plain sight. You know, it was like, we're gonna deny the facts of what happened on the ground, but we're also going to call these people domestic terrorists.

[Wagner Moura]

Yeah.

[Alex Wagner]

That. I think for a lot of Americans, seeing that happen was a real wake up call. And I wonder if you can talk a little bit about how. How to fight against that. Right. Like, there's a desire to forget the bad stuff. There's also desire to look away, but part of the thing is to keep looking and keep asking questions.

[Wagner Moura]

Yeah. There are things that cannot be forgotten, things that cannot be, you know, forgiven. And I saw the other day Donald Trump saying, like, we have to go over. We have to move on. The absence. And I go like, that is dangerous. You know, there are things that you cannot absolutely forget. When I said that, I've been learning a lot about the film that I did talking to people. It's like, recently in one of those Q and A's, I was answering a question about what happened to my character and how it ended up for him, and I realized one thing that I hadn't thought about the film, that this is also a film about infamy. And exactly what you said, when you kill someone twice, you know, because you kill the person and then you kill their reputation.

[Alex Wagner]

Exactly.

[Wagner Moura]

And that's so cruel. And that's typical of this kind of regime. I've been saying this, Alex, and I don't want to repeat myself, but the thing that scares me, it really scares me. And when we're talking about the alignment of the tech oligarchs with the power is that and the decadence of journalism and the Washington Post just firing people. This is the thing that concerns me, the idea that the truth is over, or the Post truth, or whatever scholars call it.

[Alex Wagner]

Yeah. That we have shared realities.

[Wagner Moura]

It's shared realities. We are not living in the same mental space. You know, we are not like, it's not that everybody that voted for Trump or voted for Bolson, they are not like bad people like some of them are. But lots of these people are just people that are living in another reality.

[Alex Wagner]

Yeah. They think the world is operating in a different fashion.

[Wagner Moura]

It's a different. And this was something that was always. It's a thing for the far right. They have always done that. But with the technology now, with the Fact that you can have a video, this right now could be me speaking. It's me. It's my face, it's my voice, and it's not me.

[Alex Wagner]

I know.

[Wagner Moura]

And for me, I'm almost 50. This is crazy.

[Alex Wagner]

I know.

[Wagner Moura]

You know, it's the idea that, like I said, they can say. It's just that the resistance, just that kind of thing doesn't allow them to go that far with the lies against Rene Gude, Alex, Petra. Because there are people here to say, like, this is not true, but it's becoming more and more common that these kind of things are going to be taken as the truth.

[Alex Wagner]

Well, that people feel they're being manipulated by technology and that the real truth is not the truth that challenges their assumptions about the world. I mean, that's the thing, is people just want information, data, stories, narrators who confirm that the way they think and see things is the right way. And anything that disrupts that is rejected as false or part of some kind of conspiracy. And that is not good. I mean, has anyone watched your movie and not. Have you gotten any reactions that have not seen the parallel reality between what was happening in Brazil in 1977 and what's unfolding not just in America, but in other places with the rise of strongmen?

[Wagner Moura]

And I think that this has been very clear and this has been the.

[Alex Wagner]

Okay, good.

[Wagner Moura]

The subject of all the discussions and all The Q&As and all the conversations that we've been having. And I'm glad that it's been like, this is what. I think. That's why we do films. That's why we do what we do. I think.

[Alex Wagner]

Have you been. I mean, has it. You live in Los Angeles, and we're at a moment when this president is trying to kick out people who are legally here, people that are inconvenient for him, people especially who are from Central and South America. I mean, have you felt any particular peril going out there and being openly political about this and being outwardly critical of certain administrations?

[Wagner Moura]

Yeah, I've been always very vocal. Right. Like in Brazil, especially.

[Alex Wagner]

Yeah. And Bolsonaro, you were on his radar.

[Wagner Moura]

Oh, yeah. It wasn't easy. It was because in order to be vocal, you have to be also willing to face the backlash. That's why I'm against. When people go, you have to go out, you have to speak up. There are some people that are not ready to do that, and they shouldn't, because the backlash is really strong. Yeah, but I think that this is.

[Alex Wagner]

What did you ask something have you worried at all?

[Wagner Moura]

No.

[Alex Wagner]

You worried at all about repercussions?

[Wagner Moura]

No, because it would be worse for me to go seasoning. Yeah, but this is how I am again. This is me, you know, they shouldn't value. This shouldn't be the thing for everybody. For me, I wouldn't be able to sleep at night if I knew something. If I had something that I knew I would say and people would listen to me and I would do it. I wouldn't do it because I was afraid of something or because someone is paid, Paying me, you know, because I have an economical, a financial interest that would destroy. Again, talking about values, how can I tell my kids to be honest and to be, you know, to be. To be themselves and to stick with the values that they have if I don't do that?

[Alex Wagner]

Right.

[Wagner Moura]

So, no, I'm not. Of course it's some. It's. I've been again, the world is totally polarized. Right. So when I say something, especially in Brazil, when I say something like half of the country I guess go like, that's nice, that's cool. And the other half is like, yeah. I mean.

[Alex Wagner]

Do you get shit? Like, do people give you a hard time in Brazil?

[Wagner Moura]

Oh my God.

[Alex Wagner]

Like, what do they do? Do they come up to you? What do they say?

[Wagner Moura]

I'm glad that I don't have social medias, because it's hardcore. Yeah. When I did that, my film Mariguela, and that was under Bolsonaro's government, we received many death threats and when we were releasing the film, we had to have metal detectors at the door. Yeah. I've been like, when I was on the street, because I go out and I had to be really pay attention where I was and who I was talking to.

[Alex Wagner]

So you decided to follow that up with this. Like, if I were your wife, I'd be like, how about an animation? How about a Pixar film?

[Wagner Moura]

Honey, I would love.

[Alex Wagner]

Wanna be the voice of a crab. How about that?

[Wagner Moura]

I was actually visiting Pixar studios yesterday.

[Alex Wagner]

Yeah. Yeah, you were.

[Wagner Moura]

That's what I should be doing. But. Yeah, but I think it's. Yeah, this is how I function, I think, as a. As a person.

[Alex Wagner]

Well, I mean, hats off to you. And I wish there were more people. I honestly think we are living in times. And I say this as an American who has lived largely a life of privilege in a very free society as a journalist, but it really feels like it's time to pick aside when they're threatening to arrest and hang for treason US Senators, when They're going after the fourth estate. And when they're terrorizing communities of color in American cities just by virtue of disagreement, it's like, this is the hour. This is the hour to say something.

[Wagner Moura]

And I think, I think so, yeah.

[Alex Wagner]

You know, Hollywood is one thing, but if you have a pulpit, if you have a voice, why not use it? I mean, I do want to ask though, because I say this and you're in Hollywood. It's another sunny day. You were at Pixar Studios. I was in Hungary early last year, trying to get a sense of what it was like to live in an autocracy. And one of the things, as an American, I didn't fully under. I did not grasp the lived experience of being in Brazil in the late 70s. Right. I think most Americans, because we're largely ignorant about world history, think of Brazil as like Carnaval and like Caipiri and whatever. The movie takes place during Carnaval, which I thought was really interesting. But they think of Brazil as an.

[Wagner Moura]

Ah, which is happening right now.

[Alex Wagner]

Well, I mean, the Lenten season, right?

[Wagner Moura]

My God, it's so.

[Alex Wagner]

But just talk to me a little bit about how, you know, we. I do feel like autocracies now are. They're not like the gulags of yesteryear. They're like, like Hungary is a lovely place to visit. You can go have a cocktail and a great meal, but there's not real freedom of speech. Right. And Brazil, it's like, it's still this beautiful place. It's bucolic, There's a lot of sex happening, a lot of sex in the movie. Not gratuitous and yet very sexy, very authentically of the fabric of Brazil. But yeah, exactly, that's so true. It's just hard for people to understand that just because your day to day life can be one of sunshine and beaches, it doesn't guarantee that you have real freedom. And I wonder how you as a Brazilian think about that period and just the way, you know, people like enjoying their lives. They don't want to have to worry about darkness at the edge of the frame.

[Wagner Moura]

You know, when I did narcos and I was living in Colombia and Bogota back in the 80s was the most dangerous city in the world because of the bombs Pablo Escobar was putting on the streets and everything. And I was asking my friends in Colombia, hey, how was it to be to live here back in the 80s, what it was in? And they were like, dude, we were going out, we were going to bars and living our lives and Then boom, a bomb would explode.

[Alex Wagner]

Exactly.

[Wagner Moura]

And that's one thing that I love in films is to see characters, I love to see characters that want to live, that like to be alive despite of the situations. Because that's how human beings are.

[Alex Wagner]

Yeah.

[Wagner Moura]

So we're not monolithic. Of course, it's hardcore to be under a dictatorship. But one of my favorite scenes in the Secret Agents, when he realizes that there are hitmen looking for him and he goes downstairs and carnival is going on and he goes like, okay, so he gives himself to the carnival and goes. And that's. For me, that's very humane. But you were right about this thing, the dictatorships, not detectorships, but authoritarian regime nowadays. It's interesting, man. I mean, yeah, when I think about the detectors, the dictators from South America and back in the 70s and six 70s, they're all those military guys with you know, like those hats and, and things.

[Alex Wagner]

Uniforms.

[Wagner Moura]

Yeah, uniforms. And, and, and it's interesting that they all now they, they are perceived as exactly like you said. Haven't thought about that. As like, yeah, this is just, you know, like this is it, this is normal. It's more like a cynical. That's just one thing about Donald Trump that I think it's interesting.

[Alex Wagner]

What? Yeah, tell me.

[Wagner Moura]

When he, for example, when he invaded Venezuela right now, he didn't say they had mass destruction weapons or anything like that.

[Alex Wagner]

He was like, no, WMDs, oil. You know, straight up, we're robbing this fucking country.

[Wagner Moura]

We want their oil. That's what we want. And I was like, wow. Because yeah, I feel that nowadays these authoritarian guys, they, they passed as, they like to behave as democratic guys.

[Alex Wagner]

It's like they don't want people to know. It's like a full on dictatorship. They're like, you can still go to Zumba class, you can still get a smoothie. There's just no press anymore. And also if you're brown, if you're too brown, we're gonna deport you regardless.

[Wagner Moura]

Of whether you're an American, to another country that's not even yours.

[Alex Wagner]

I mean, but that's the thing of the United States. It's like, it's a very careful line, right. You're nominated for best actor. We have a best picture nomination. And like those hallmarks of a free and fair society that would champion that level of artistry that addresses the subject of dictatorship so directly. But it's also like, but shit, the rest of the countries like go to Minneapolis. I was there three weeks ago. That sure as fuck did not feel Like a democracy, Right.

[Wagner Moura]

And you say like, I'm nominated for an Academy Award, but if I see ICE people on the street.

[Brian Tyler Cohen]

Right.

[Wagner Moura]

I've been asking myself, what would I do?

[Alex Wagner]

What would you do?

[Wagner Moura]

I don't know, because my, My, my instinct, and I have. I know that I have this instinct in, in me, which my wife gets very nervous about, which is like, you. You know, and, and. And I have to be careful with that because.

[Alex Wagner]

Insane. Can I just say, this is insane that you.

[Wagner Moura]

Yeah, because they. If they.

[Alex Wagner]

You are going in the Oscar and.

[Wagner Moura]

And I speak with an accent and I. Yeah, well, it's like they. And they go away. I. I don't know. What. What would I do? I don't know. Should I just pretend that they're not there and try to walk? I don't know if I could be able to do that. You know, of all my reaction would be like, confront confrontation. And that could be very. And that put. Could put my life in danger.

[Alex Wagner]

Yeah. Do you do. Your kid. Your kids are old enough to know about what's happening. Do you talk to them?

[Wagner Moura]

Yeah, they went to a manifestation against ice.

[Alex Wagner]

A protest?

[Wagner Moura]

Yeah, a protest here.

[Alex Wagner]

And did they talk to you about what you should do or what you would do as a family? I mean, that's so insane that someone who's up for best actor is like, if ICE comes. Fuck. I don't know what I do.

[Wagner Moura]

I don't know. I don't know. No. We have conversations here about politics, and I just want them to be safe, you know, like when they. The younger ones I have, my kids are 19, 15 and 13. And the 15 and the 13, they were like, dad, there's a manifestation against ice. Some of our friends are. They're going, can we go? I was like, yeah, you should go. Go.

[Alex Wagner]

Yeah.

[Wagner Moura]

But I was like, worried. Worried. Yeah.

[Jon Favreau]

Positive America is brought to you by stamps.com. it is honestly shocking to me that to this very day, many small business owners are still making post office runs or are stuck with expensive postage meter leases. It's 2026, not 1926. Mail and ship when you want, how you want. With stamps.com. with stamps.com you can send from your computer or phone 24. 7. No long lines, no low supplies. Open anytime. Print postage on demand and get up to 90% off carrier rates like FedEx, UPS and USPS. Schedule carrier pickups right from your door and get carrier compliant labels every time. No errors, no rejected mail, no wasted trips. It's perfect for your business. Send certified mail, get document tracking to confirm delivery and analytics to make sure you know exactly what you've sent and spent. For almost 30 years, millions of customers have relied on stamps.com to make mailing and shipping faster. And so simple. Look, if you're a small business owner and you are still like driving to the post office to drop stuff off, to mail stuff, to pick stuff off, it's just a huge time suck. Stamps.com is one of those tools that is so obvious it makes sense. It's helped us here at Crooked. We've used it to send merch. We've saved time, we save money. We don't have to leave the home or the office. It just, it's totally worth it right now. You can try stamps.com risk free for 60 days. Go to stamps.com and use the code PSA to get 60 days. Risk free. 60 days gives you plenty of time to see exactly how much time and money you're saving on every shipment. That's stamps.com code PSA stamps.com code PSA.

[Wagner Moura]

Want to feel more confident with your finances this year?

[Alex Wagner]

If you have 60 seconds, I can.

[Dan Pfeiffer]

Show you how quick and easy it is to start building healthy money habits.

[Wagner Moura]

That could last you the entire year.

[Dan Pfeiffer]

Just by using rocket Money.

[Wagner Moura]

Step 1 Download Rocket Money.

[Dan Pfeiffer]

Step 2 Link all your accounts and.

[Wagner Moura]

See your entire spending picture your subscriptions.

[Dan Pfeiffer]

Your upcoming bills, your due dates, everything. Step 3 Tap a subscription you don't use and cancel it. Boom.

[Wagner Moura]

That's money back every single month. Step 4 Create a financial goal for.

[Dan Pfeiffer]

Something you want to save for, whether it be a vacation, a retirement account.

[Wagner Moura]

Or a pet's birthday. We don't judge. Now, let the app automatically move small.

[Dan Pfeiffer]

Amounts of cash towards your goal.

[Wagner Moura]

In a month, you'll see real dollars piling up. In a year, you'll be shocked at.

[Dan Pfeiffer]

How much money you saved, similar to the over 10 million members on the app that have saved up to $740 a year. When using all of the app's premium.

[Wagner Moura]

Features, use the Savings Challenge as one step closer to feeling better about your finances.

[Dan Pfeiffer]

[e-mail] cancel that's rocketmoney.com cancel one more time, it's rocketmoney.com cancel.

[Brian Tyler Cohen]

This is Brian Tyler Cohen, host of the no Lie Podcast, which is part of Crooked Media. You've likely seen my videos online or watched me torture Tommy Vitor as part of our series on YouTube, but this week I've got a really exciting episode. I'm interviewing the 44th President of the United States, Barack Obama. So if you want to tune in and hear what he's got to say, including a definitive answer as to whether or not aliens are real. Make sure to listen by Searching for no Lie with Brian Tyler Cohen on Apple Podcasts, Spotify or wherever you listen to podcasts.

[Alex Wagner]

When we talk about sort of like, masculinity and the ways in which fathers and sons can impart lessons to each other and just how much of our political moment is dictated by toxic masculinity. I must ask you, since you just sort of made a glancing mention of the Epstein files, like, what do you think of all that? I know that the corruption of the elites was something that happened in Brazil in this period, something that a lot of autocratic and dictatorial societies are familiar with, because you really can't get far unless you have buy in from the richest, the most and the most powerful. Like, when you see this Epstein stuff come out, like, I mean, what do you think of it? What is it? What is. Like, what was your thought when you saw all the people that were mentioned in that book?

[Wagner Moura]

It's crazy because I sometimes I catch myself like, in a sort of like, QAnon sort of like.

[Alex Wagner]

Well, I mean, I think all of us were like, yeah, like this, like going QAnon maybe, maybe kind of we.

[Wagner Moura]

Hit on something there conspiracy theories about. Because for sure, we're talking about a financial elite, right? That, that, that. When I heard that Noam Chomsky was involved in this thing, I was like, yeah, man, you know, this is. This is it, you know, for sure, this. Most of the, most of the people involved in these scandals are conservative politicians. But actually it's not about right or left.

[Alex Wagner]

No, it's about power and wealth.

[Wagner Moura]

About power and wealth. And for me, that is coming from a country where social inequality is the biggest issue. You know, it's the biggest issue of Brazil. And every time, with the exception of Lula, that's why I respect him so much. But every time a president in Brazil, someone tried to do something about it, this person got ousted, you know, got impeached, or there was a coup d' etat or something. Every time. Because people make lots of money. The interest rates in Brazil is like, I don't know. I don't even know. It's like the biggest in the world. So the biggest, the banks makes lots of money financial. It's a system that they don't want to disrupt, be changed. So it's just. Yeah, it's hard not to go like, oh, my God, this world is being ruled by lizards.

[Alex Wagner]

Is it Weird to be in a place like Hollywood when this stuff comes out. Because he made inroads. He was always. Epstein was always trying to get to Hollywood. And there is a certain. Like, Hollywood can look away from things it doesn't wanna see. We know that from the MeToo movement.

[Wagner Moura]

Yeah.

[Alex Wagner]

And I just wonder, like. I wonder what it's like to be a bit of a radical and to be politically engaged and being someone who's ready to resist in a. In a. And I'm not asking you to, like, smear Hollywood, but so much of Hollywood is transactional and it's just about like, you know, who knows who and power and access.

[Wagner Moura]

Don't expose yourself. Be. You know.

[Alex Wagner]

Exactly. Yeah, yeah.

[Wagner Moura]

But, you know, of course, in a way, smaller scale. I lived this in Brazil as well.

[Alex Wagner]

Yeah, yeah.

[Wagner Moura]

A star system in Brazil as well, that it operates sort of in the same way, but in a way smaller scale. And it's. Yeah, it's how. The same that we spoke in the beginning. I understand. I really understand people that don't want to go out there and say things. Although I agree with you, if there's a moment to go out there and say, shit, I think it's now.

[Alex Wagner]

It's now.

[Wagner Moura]

But I understand. Who doesn't want to do that? Because people are not equipped emotionally or intellectually, or didn't. Don't. People shouldn't talk about things that they don't understand.

[Alex Wagner]

I get that.

[Wagner Moura]

I get that. Right. I get that. But for me, yeah, I'll keep being myself again. The thing that I tell to my kids all the time is like, be yourself. You know, what you are is good enough. Don't try to be something else. Don't try to impress anyone. Just, you are wonderful just the way you are. Just be yourself and you'll be fine. Stick with the values that you have.

[Alex Wagner]

And you, meanwhile, are going to be someone else every couple months. I'm kidding. I know what you're saying, but.

[Wagner Moura]

Yeah, but that's another thing about it.

[Alex Wagner]

And I will be Pablo Escobar.

[Wagner Moura]

But that's the point. For me, it's interesting. I've come to realize more and more that when I play a character, it's way more a version of myself than anything else, you know, like, it's not like the idea that actors, like, put masks in front of them.

[Alex Wagner]

So you're not method.

[Wagner Moura]

I think we expose ourselves a lot when we play. Even when we play characters like Pablo Escobar.

[Alex Wagner]

Can I ask you. I ask you this. Cause you're from South America and Trump's ramp up to the super bowl and Bad Bunny performing and was like, so the racism usually lives right on the surface, but in that moment and the aftermath, it was like the degradation of Latin culture and the accusations that you can't be part of America. Bad Bunny saying, together, we are America, and ending the super bowl listing off, including your home country, all these countries, and suggesting the promise of this place is its inclusivity and that you can be Brazilian, but you're also American. How did, like, how did that moment strike you when you were. I mean, I don't know if you watch football, but, like, I assume the, like, the. The sort of, like, do you speak English? What language do you speak? Like, the whole debate about having this performer and what he said ultimately in his joyous celebration of a halftime.

[Wagner Moura]

Beautiful. I didn't see the whole thing. I saw a video afterwards, and I. I thought he was beautiful. I thought. I thought he was. He was brave. And he. Because I. For me, it's always, I could be here talking to you and saying things. And I can say here right now, I think Donald Trump is racist. And I keep telling this and doing this all the time. This wouldn't be as important or stronger than, for example, the film that we did, the Secret Agent. I think that what fascists are afraid of is not. They're not afraid of. Because they. Any fascist government, they attack journalists, they attack artists, they attack universities. But with artists, I don't think that they are afraid of what we say publicly. They are afraid of what we do. Yeah, this is what concerns them, you know? And so Bad Bunny in the Grammys, he went up there and he said, eyes out. And it was like, fucking cool. But what he did with that performance, it's way more powerful.

[Alex Wagner]

Totally.

[Wagner Moura]

It's his talent, and that's what he was born to do. And the way he did it, I was very moved performance. And of course, Trump's reaction is a clear display of racism.

[Alex Wagner]

But also fear, I think, too.

[Wagner Moura]

And fear. And that's what I'm talking. And fear. That's right. And fear.

[Alex Wagner]

Because to your point, I mean, Trump wants to believe as. As. As much of a cultural idiot as he is. I think you're totally right about artists being a very powerful bulwark to authoritarianism because they have the hearts and the mind of the people. They have this magic to them that can't easily be stamped out and can't be dismissed as partisan chicanery. It's. It's like, it's something that. That Trump will Never have that magic that Bad Bunny had. And the goodness and the like, joy of that performance is the opposite of what he's offering to the end.

[Wagner Moura]

And him being such a narcissist, you know, for him, that's not a. But you said very right. Like fear is a. I'm convinced that the whole. All the. All the bad things in the world, the. They all come out of fear and insecure and lack of self esteem. Going back to the guys killing Alex Petti in Minneapolis. I saw those men. They were in fear. That's what I could see. Very scared men. They were all scared. There's something in their life. Exactly. And the way they recruit the ICE people, from what I heard, it's very particular. It's like they're gathering people not only ideologically, but there is something about these men that connect them in their fear, in their lack of self esteem, in the way that they've been like, in their minds, that they've been relegated their entire lives. And I could see this when Bolsonaro got elect, when in his. All his secretaries and ministers, they were like a bunch of people that no one really never cared about. It was like, people. There were like a lot of, like, people with so much resentment in their hearts and that. And now this. Now it's my moment.

[Alex Wagner]

Now it's totally. Well, I would argue the same is true of the Trump administration. It's like the cabinet of broken toys. It's people who have faced rejection, who feel less than and who've been given some power and are gonna use that to, you know, put the boot on other people's necks. I think it's also why ICE wears masks. It's for their own. It's like they're also. They know that part of their impunity is because they're hidden, but if they actually had to face the music of what they're doing, the depravity of it, like they're terrified of what they're doing.

[Wagner Moura]

That says a lot. Exactly.

[Alex Wagner]

The masks are a huge part of this.

[Wagner Moura]

The mask says a lot. You know why you're not showing your face?

[Alex Wagner]

I gotta ask you about this, because I was really struck by this quote when you. After Narcos, a series I absolutely loved so much. Again, it's like, I know every journalist does this in these interviews with you, so I'm trying my best not to be fawning. But anyway, you said you turned down a lot of interviews after Narcos because you didn't want to be like the Latin bad guy. And in an interview you said, I want to play a character who speaks the way I speak because I represent a big portion of this country. People who came here speak with accents and are important for what we know as the United States, which is Chef's kiss, no notes. But like, was that a political, like how, how frau, how much of a political. That feels like a really political statement in this.

[Wagner Moura]

Yeah, it's, it's for sure a political statement. You know, I don't want to play, I don't want to do anything that would be, you know, that would represent my people in a way that would be stereotype or would the image representation matters a lot. You know, I think that it's great to see, you know, to have kids back in Brazil looking at the kind of characters that I want to play or that, you know, one thing that I was very like, I love to see Diego Luna in Star Wars.

[Alex Wagner]

I know, it's so good.

[Wagner Moura]

That's so important. Like a Mexican little boy there in Mexico or like the Mexican communities or people that speak Spanish here in this country go like, oh my God, there's this dude speaking with that accent and it's in the Star wars world. I belong to that too. I think this is so important, you know, for kids, for the new generations and yeah, it's for sure a political statement.

[Alex Wagner]

Pedro Pascal needs to take that Mandalorian mask off. Just kidding. He's great. He's great.

[Dan Pfeiffer]

Pod Save America is brought to you by Bombas. Whether you've been able to stick to your resolutions this year, there's one goal that should remain at the top of your list. Get comfy. That's where Bombas comes in. They're bringing serious comfort to all your everyday go tos. The all new Bombus sport socks are engineered with sport specific comfort for running, golf, hiking, skiing, snowboarding and all sport. They're cushioned where you need it most. Sweat wicking and loaded with other tech features to keep you comfy and locked in. For those everyday around the house resolutions, Bombas also has you covered with the comfiest front footwear imaginable. They got these luxurious Sherpa Sunday slippers that feel like you're walking on clouds. Yeah, I could use some Sunday slippers.

[Jon Favreau]

I went and bought right over around Christmas I bought a bunch of new Bomba socks, like half dozen or so. And they're great, they're super comfortable. They're like the no show ones, but they're really cushy still. I like that.

[Dan Pfeiffer]

Do they wick some moisture as well.

[Jon Favreau]

They wick their asses off.

[Dan Pfeiffer]

So important, they're great. For every item you purchase, an essential clothing item is donated to someone facing housing insecurity. One purchased one, one donated. With over 150 million donations and counting, head over to bombas.com crooked and use code crooked for 20% off your first purchase. That's B O M B-A-S.com crooked code crooked at checkout.

[Wagner Moura]

Let's do the 60 Second Savings Challenge. Step one download Rocket Money. Step two link your accounts and see every subscription you're paying for. Tap one you don't use and cancel it. That's money back every month. Step 3 Create a financial goal. $50 every paycheck. Or let the app automatically move small amounts of cash. When you can afford it in a week, you'll forget you set it up. In a month, you'll see real dollars piling up. In a year, you'll be shocked at how much money you've saved. Bonus challenge. Upload an Internet or phone bill and let Rocket Money try to lower it. You only pay if they find you savings. On average, Rocket Money members can save up to $740 a year when using all of the app's premium features. Users love the app with over 186,000 five star ratings. Make saving money the resolution you actually keep. Start the 60 second savings [e-mail] cancel. That's rocketmoney.com cancel rocketmoney.com cancel.

[Brian Tyler Cohen]

This is Brian Tyler Cohen, host of the no Lie podcast, which is part of Crooked Media. You've likely seen my videos online or watch me torture Tommy Vitor as part of our series on YouTube. But this week I've got a really exciting episode. I'm interviewing the 44th President of the United States, Barack Obama. So if you want to tune in and hear what he's got to say, including a definitive answer as to whether or not aliens are real, make sure to listen by searching for no Lie with Brian Tyler Cohen on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you listen to podcasts.

[Alex Wagner]

Let me ask you, because I feel like on your CV it says that you at one point worked as a journalist. Is that right?

[Wagner Moura]

I graduated as a journalist. I, that's why I also why I care so much about journalism and, and I, and I'm so concerned about the state of journalism.

[Alex Wagner]

Is that why you took the, the less glamorous path of a Hollywood superstar? It's just like it was too much pressure being a journalist?

[Wagner Moura]

No, I, I, I think that I wouldn't that wasn't my thing. I don't think I would be a very good journalist.

[Alex Wagner]

Why?

[Wagner Moura]

I think it requires a lot of. I have lots of interest in other people and I want to know about it. But there is a thing that a journalist has to be very invasive sometimes.

[Alex Wagner]

Like me saying, why not you?

[Wagner Moura]

No. But, you know, like, you have to be relaxed. You do, you know, have to, like, skip not receiving a no. And going back there and knocking at their door and trying. And I don't think I had that kind of skills, you know. And also, too, when I worked as a journalist, I was. I had a very romantic idea that I wanted to chapel. I wanted to be like, oh, the president's man kind of thing, and do something that. And it. The kind of thing that I was doing when I started as a journalist.

[Alex Wagner]

Was very like, what were you doing? Do you remember?

[Wagner Moura]

I remember that I covered police. I had to go to the police station and know how many people died, how many.

[Alex Wagner]

That's what Woodward and Bernstein were doing. They were like weekend beat reporters.

[Wagner Moura]

It was very like. And also I did some cultural things, too, and I don't know, man. I think that acting is more.

[Alex Wagner]

Well, you're nominated for an Academy Award. Obviously, you chose the right path.

[Wagner Moura]

My friends from the city where I'm from, from Salvador, but most of them are my. I met my wife in college studying journalists. Most of my friends are journalists. And I'm very concerned of the state of journalism as a business and as a idea. The Washington Post thing is very. It was a very sad thing to see. You know, like, was like, Jeff Bezos has 40 million to put in that documentary. And he couldn't. You know, he had to fire all these people, like, from. From. From the Washington Post. The Washington Post is a very, very important institution for American democracy.

[Alex Wagner]

Yeah.

[Wagner Moura]

You know, again, talking about all the presidents, man. You know, like, it's. It's so those. That. Those kind of things really, this concerns me a lot.

[Alex Wagner]

You talk about Watergate, and I'm reminded of the 1970s in America, which was like an incredible period of cinema, I think, in large part because it was a response to Vietnam and Watergate and the corruption of institutions. Do you feel optimistic that we're going to. I mean, and your movie is obviously ti. You know, you did it in 24, and we've obviously been talking about autocracy and dictatorships a lot in the Western world. Do you. Are you optimistic that Hollywood can react in the way that it did, like it did in the 70s and sort of Be fertile again or do you feel like the system is fucked beyond repair?

[Wagner Moura]

I'm very bad with this predictions. I never know what's going to happen and I don't know how the impact of technology is gonna have in our, in what we do. I can see that the AI thing is, you know, is moving so fast. There's AI actors already, you know, like, I don't know, you know, I don't know the grip of this technology. The film the Secret Agent had, if you, if you noticed it had a very huge. Cleber Mendoza Fitter, the director of this film. He loves American films as I do from the 70s.

[Alex Wagner]

Yeah. And is very influenced by that.

[Wagner Moura]

Very clear even in. With the way he shoots with the panamorphic lenses and the zooms and the political aspects of Three Days of Calendar and all those films from Peckinpah, from, you know, the Palma and Peckinpah, all these. This is a great era for films in the world. World is, is.

[Alex Wagner]

And the clothes are so awesome. Let's just say.

[Wagner Moura]

Yeah, the clothes are great. I hope so. Listen, I hope.

[Alex Wagner]

Are you kidding? You got, you like, you look amazing.

[Wagner Moura]

You, the words the clothes are great. But I, I to, to your question. I hope, I hope so. I think I really liked one battle after another. I thought that it was a great film, you know, about a revolution in the future and, and also like again, like a film that was, they shot it. I don't know when they shot that, but you know, and then all these film that starts with lots of Latinos in the getting, you know, in a prison and revolutionaries freeing them and yeah, I think we'll, I think it's, it's filmmakers and artists will keep doing our thing, you know, like, it's like despite of economical powers and Hollywood and the grip that money has on the studios and the technology thing. And I think we'll keep doing our thing. It's just what we do.

[Alex Wagner]

Well, you said something really beautiful at the beginning of this, which I want to get back to before we close it out, which is generational trauma can be passed down, but so can. I'm getting it wrong already. Is it generational hope? I mean, I think one of the.

[Wagner Moura]

What values?

[Alex Wagner]

Yeah, values. You said generational trauma can be passed down, but so can generational values. And I think honestly one of the ways you remind people, we remind ourselves of who we are and in all of our complexities is through art. Right? Like, it's like this film is a reminder of what happened in Brazil, but it's a Way for Brazil to also reconcile her past, or his, whatever you want, to his past, whatever. And it's a holding a mirror back up to ourselves. But that's also how we. It's a statement of values and priorities that you make art like that. Right. That one battle after another and the Secret Agent are both going to be best picture nominees is a value statement about what matters and what resonates in our culture. And that's really hopeful.

[Wagner Moura]

I think so. I think so, too. And I think that this is. So. It's been so important because the far right in Brazil, they were very efficient in transforming artists, of course, into the enemies of the people. There's a big discussion in Brazil about if the government should fund culture or not. Of course, the far right says that, no, we shouldn't. They shouldn't do that. And they. And they said, oh, all these artists, they are. You know, they're using the money to. That we should build a school or a hospital and we're doing a film. Bunch of.

[Alex Wagner]

It's bullshit. That's a false. That's a false statement. That's a false choice.

[Wagner Moura]

The false. Absolutely. But, you know, but people. It's crazy because people see that and people go like, oh, yeah, I prefer a school than a film, you know, and this has been a battle, one battle after another, that we are. That we are fighting in Brazil against. Against this. This kind of thing, because no country developed. I listen, I grew up watching American films, right? So that for me were international films that I saw with subtitles. But my understanding of what the US Is comes from the films that I saw. You know, every time I think about Christmas, although in Brazil it's summer, I think about snow because of the American Christmas films. So. And that's. And that's. And that was something that was important for me to read your country, to have empathy for these people, to admire things about this culture and to see things that I didn't like as well, and to go like, oh, that's not cool, to form an idea of other countries. But I guess it's even more important for an American, for Americans throughout history, like, to be able to see themselves to go like, oh, so this is who we are.

[Alex Wagner]

Exactly.

[Wagner Moura]

We are. This is. And great things. And that's the shaping of a culture. No country develops without that. So the false dichotomy of, like, hospitals or films, it's stupid, because we need. We need films, we need books, we need to see ourselves in our. I love what's going on in Brazil right now. The way people are embracing this film, even with the polarization and seeing, like, this film represent us, you know, this is Brazil. You know, this is a part of Brazil. It's a part of Brazilian history. So, yeah, I think this is indeed very, very important.

[Alex Wagner]

Yeah, it's like. It's like, why, you know, the videos of Alex Preddy and Renee Nicole Goode are really important, but then it's also. It's also important to see Bad Bunny at the super bowl. And it's also important, you know, it's all of a piece. It's all America. And the only true. The truth is not distilled into just one image, but many images. Right. So.

[Wagner Moura]

Yeah.

[Alex Wagner]

Can I ask you, like, do you know what you're gonna say if you win?

[Wagner Moura]

I really don't expect.

[Alex Wagner]

Are you gonna say ice out? I'm kidding.

[Wagner Moura]

I have no idea. I think that we got. I'm so happy that we. Honestly, no, bullshit. We got so far. It's crazy. You know, this Brazilian film had four nominations to the Academy Awards. We won awards in Cannes. We won awards in the Golden Globes. It's great. You know, I think that we are where we didn't really dream to be when we were doing this movie. So, yeah, as a. As you know, I don't think. I don't have expectations, like, win an award this time. Really?

[Alex Wagner]

You've given more thought to what happens if ICE detains you than if you actually win the Academy Award. Jesus Christ.

[Wagner Moura]

That I should be definitely thinking about. Why isn't he here? Oh, he's detained. Oh, my God.

[Alex Wagner]

Jesus Christ. Well, that would be amazing. For the cause. Let's just be clear.

[Wagner Moura]

Yeah. Now I could have a chance now.

[Alex Wagner]

Thanks to this podcast, we've put a target on your back, not the intention at all. And we know you would get out.

[Wagner Moura]

Fast because that would generate lots of publicity for sure.

[Alex Wagner]

Well, listen, I hope that you win it and there's no ICE agents anywhere near. It's an extraordinary film. You're an extraordinary. It's so reassuring to have artists who are also politically engaged and just so fucking awake. It's awesome. It's great to have you on a program like this. And it means a lot, both, I think, for us here at Crooked, but also for our audience. And it's just great to see a handshake between politics and art that's so effortless and so real.

[Wagner Moura]

So I think that they walk together. I don't see. I think that they're really entangled. Our arts and politics is sort of like the Same, you know, I think that's how I see it.

[Alex Wagner]

Listen, I wanted to be an actor, but I became a journalist. You wanted to be a journalist, became an actor. I think we ended up in our.

[Wagner Moura]

Right lanes and we're both Wagners and.

[Alex Wagner]

We both, we needed a Wagner in journalism, a one in vogue.

[Wagner Moura]

There's a lot in common here, Alex.

[Alex Wagner]

I don't know, I just. We're. We're siblings from a different mother. I don't know. Something like that. It is a true pleasure. Wagner, thank you for spending some time with me today. You're the best.

[Wagner Moura]

Thank you, thank you.

[Alex Wagner]

Thank you to Wagner Mora for being such a sport about all of this. I hope this doesn't dim your prospects getting a Pixar movie, but keep making these movies and everybody please keep supporting artists who can have conversations like this in the middle of an Academy Awards season by going to see the Secret Agent, which is streaming now, or by going back into the vaults and checking out season one of Narcos, where he is totally awesome. Thank you to Wagner for doing this and thank you guys all for listening.

[Dan Pfeiffer]

If you want to listen to Pod Save America ad free and get access to exclusive podcasts, go to crooked.com friends to subscribe on Supercast, Substack, YouTube or Apple Podcasts. Also, please consider leaving us a review that helps boost this episode and everything we do here at Crooked. Pod Save America is a crooked media production. Our producer is Saul Rubin. Our associate producer is fellow Faris Safari. Austin Fisher is our senior producer. Reed Churlin is our executive editor. Adrian Hill is our head of news and politics. The show is mixed and edited by Andrew Chadwick. Jordan Kanter is our sound engineer with audio support from Kyle Seglin and Charlotte Landis. Matt de Groat is our head of production. Naomi Sengel is our executive assistant. Thanks to our digital team, Elijah Cohn, Hayley Jones, Ben Hefcoat, Mia Kelman, Kirill Pelaviev, David Toles and Ryan Young. Our production production staff is proudly unionized with the Writers Guild of America East.

[Jon Favreau]

If you guys like Pod Save America, please consider subscribing to our Friends of the Pod program. So Friends of the Pod get lots of stuff, you get more Pod Save America. That includes our new show, which is called Podcast Day of America Only Friends.

[Dan Pfeiffer]

It's where Dan gets naked, where Dan.

[Jon Favreau]

Gets full frontal nudity. But mostly it's a bi weekly subscription exclusive podcast that is basically Pod Save America, but behind a paywall. So it's a little bit looser and more fun. And it's love it and Favreau and me and Pfeiffer and then other crooked hosts. We go deeper on the news and cover more stories. You also get Open Tabs, which is a weekly behind the scenes newsletter from the show. Plus you get ad free episodes of your favorite crooked podcasts and all kinds of other stuff. Dan will come to your house house and clean it once every quarter.

[Dan Pfeiffer]

Yeah, clothed.

[Jon Favreau]

Dan is very busy. Clothed only, but along with just getting great content Becoming a Friend of the Pod Joining our subscription community is the number one thing you can do to help us grow to help independent progressive media. So if you're ever thought about doing it, if you ever wanted more pod save America, consider going to Cricut.com friends and becoming a friend of the Pod.

[Alex Wagner]

After the rush of the holidays, what you really want is your space back. Pura is a smart home fragrance system designed to help you feel calm, grounded and at ease without adding one more thing to your routine. Control scent, intensity, schedules and timing right from your phone and right now. Get a free Pura Home Diffuser when you subscribe to 2 cents for 12 months, risk free for 30 days. It's restoration made simple. Visit pura.com to get started now. After the holidays, your home deserves a reset, not another routine. Right now. Get a free FREE Pura Home Diffuser when you subscribe to $0.02 for 12 months risk free for 30 days. Create calm on your terms. Visit pura.com.