Pod Save America Episode 1121: "How to Survive a Dictatorship" (feat. Wagner Moura)

Date: February 15, 2026
Host: Alex Wagner
Guest: Wagner Moura (actor, director, activist; star of "The Secret Agent")

Episode Overview

This episode features a candid, wide-ranging conversation between host Alex Wagner and acclaimed Brazilian actor Wagner Moura, known for "Narcos" and Oscar-nominated for "The Secret Agent." The dialogue dives deep into the film's themes of dictatorship, resistance, masculinity, generational trauma, and the role of art in combating authoritarianism. Drawing connections between Brazil’s history and the current American political climate, Wagner and Moura discuss the dangers of creeping autocracy, the responsibility of artists and citizens, and the hope found in cultural and political resistance.

Main Discussion Themes

1. “The Secret Agent” and Echoes of Dictatorship

• Brazil’s Civil-Military Dictatorship (1964–1985):
  Moura’s film "The Secret Agent" revisits a dark era of Brazilian history, highlighting the involvement of civilian institutions along with the military.

  • [07:21] Moura: "I love this about films because films are always like an encounter between what an artist wants to say ... with the present."
  • [08:38] Moura: "...now to see the film being released in Europe and in different countries ... it's interesting, the discussions about how Franco's name is coming back to young people..."

• Parallels to Current U.S. & Global Politics:
  Wagner underscores the film's resonance with rising authoritarian tendencies worldwide, especially in the U.S.

  • [05:26] Wagner: "...a really perilous time for anybody who dares to think freely ... all of it has a real echo with some of the stuff we're dealing with today here in America."

2. Masculinity, Power, and Socialization

• Strongman Archetypes:
  Moura reflects on how authoritarian regimes often depend on a cult of toxic masculinity, connecting it with police brutality and recent American tragedies.

  • [10:10] Moura: "I think there is an idea of masculinity going on in the world right now ... the idea of the macho man that's gonna solve the problem."
  • [14:23] Moura: "It's about values ... what kind of values you pass along to the new generations. Because Secret Agent is a film about generational trauma..."

• Raising Sons in Turbulent Times:
  Both discuss their experiences as parents and fears about the values being inherited amid political uncertainty.

  • [13:18] Moura: "...what kind of values we are passing along to our sons."

3. Generational Trauma and Social Memory

• Amnesty and National Amnesia:
  Moura details how Brazil's 1979 Amnesty Law enabled collective forgetting, impeding justice and allowing the seeds of future authoritarianism.

  • [15:49] Moura: "...79 we had a law called the Amnesty law that basically forgave torturers and killers ... it's like the dictatorship forgiving themselves."
  • [16:59] Moura: "If trauma can be passed along generations ... values can too."

• Blanket Pardons as Ominous Warnings:
  Wagner draws a parallel to potential Trump pardons in the U.S.

  • [15:49] Wagner: "Here we call it a blanket pardon. And everybody should be expecting more of those when Trump is on his way out of office..."

4. Technology, Disinformation, and Authoritarian Power

• Tech Oligarchs & Disinformation:
  Moura voices concern about the alignment of technology giants with far-right power, and the erosion of shared realities.

  • [17:29] Moura: "...the alignment of Facebook or whatever ... these guys with the far-right ... They have a project themselves."
  • [18:23] Wagner: "...they're going to get increasingly powerful as artificial intelligence becomes more of our everyday reality..."

• Post-Truth & Divided Realities:
  Moura worries about the loss of shared facts, and the increasing polarization of truth.

  • [27:35] Moura: "The idea that the truth is over, or the Post truth ... we are not living in the same mental space."
  • [28:01] Wagner: "They think the world is operating in a different fashion."

5. Resistance—a Duty and a Risk

• What Resistance Looks Like:
  Drawing from Brazilian and American experience, Moura highlights the importance of civil disobedience.

  • [22:09] Moura: "Authoritarianism is ... a reality in Brazil ... But there must be resistance, civilian resistance. And I'm not talking about guerrilla fighters... but civil disobedience."
  • [23:44] Moura: "...this is a very important moment, I think, for that kind of resistance."

• State Violence and Reputation:
  Discussion of the murders of Renee Nicole Goode and Alex Preddy, and how oppressive regimes kill memory as well as people.

  • [25:55] Moura: "There are things that cannot be forgotten, things that cannot be ... forgiven ... when you kill someone twice, you know, because you kill the person and then you kill their reputation."

6. Art, Representation, and the Power of Story

• Why Fascists Fear Artists:
  Moura sees art as vital to resistance, not merely for what is said, but for what is done and shown.

  • [51:14] Moura: "...Any fascist government, they attack journalists, they attack artists ... with artists, I don't think that they are afraid of what we say publicly. They are afraid of what we do."

• Representation and Stereotypes:
  Moura reflects on rejecting stereotypical roles and the importance of authentic Latino representation.

  • [55:34] Moura: "I don't want to do anything that would be ... that would represent my people in a way that would be stereotype ... representation matters a lot."
  • [56:17] Moura: "It's so important ... a Mexican little boy ... go like, oh my God, there's this dude speaking with that accent and it's in the Star Wars world. I belong to that too."

• The Role of Film in National and Global Self-Reflection:
  Both agree on the role of film in helping societies see themselves critically and empathetically.

  • [68:19] Moura: "No country develops without [art]. So the false dichotomy of, like, hospitals or films, it's stupid ... we need films, we need books, we need to see ourselves..."

7. Personal Risk and Backlash for Speaking Out

• Threats in Brazil:
  Moura details the real dangers of being an outspoken artist, including threats and increased security.

  • [32:18] Moura: "When I did ... Mariguela, ... under Bolsonaro's government, we received many death threats ... we had to have metal detectors at the door ..."

• Uncertainty in America:
  Moura describes the anxiety of being an immigrant artist during the Trump era, openly asking what he'd do if confronted by ICE.

  • [39:13] Moura: "I've been asking myself, what would I do?"
  • [40:28] Moura: "If ICE comes, fuck. I don't know what I'd do."

• The Right Moment for Outspokenness:
  Moura and Wagner agree now is the time for those who can safely speak out, to do so.

  • [48:07] Moura: "...if there's a moment to go out there and say shit, I think it's now."

8. Cultural Elites, Corruption, and Power

• Epstein, QAnon, and Elite Corruption:
  Moura reflects on the transpartisan nature of corruption and conspiracies, noting cultural complicity.
  • [44:57] Wagner: "...what do you think of all that? ... the corruption of the elites ..."
  • [45:54] Moura: "For me ... every time a president in Brazil ... tried to do something about [inequality], this person got ousted ..."

9. Optimism, Generational Values, and the Future of Art

• Passing Down Hope and Values:
  In the face of generational trauma, Moura is hopeful that positive values can also be inherited and reinforced through culture and storytelling.

  • [16:59] Moura: "If trauma can be passed along generations ... values can too."
  • [66:15] Wagner: "...one of the ways you remind people ... of who we are ... is through art ... and that's really hopeful."

• Hollywood’s Potential:
  Moura remains cautious but optimistic about film’s potential to mirror and inspire resistance, even amid technological and political upheaval.

  • [63:08] Moura: "I'm very bad with these predictions ... I can see that the AI thing is ... moving so fast ... but artists will keep doing our thing ... It's just what we do."

Notable Quotes & Moments

On Parallels Between Past and Present

• Wagner Moura (07:21):
  "Films are always like an encounter between what an artist wants to say with a very particular [moment] ... with the present."
• Alex Wagner (05:26):
  "All of it has a real echo with some of the stuff we're dealing with today here in America."

On Civil Resistance

• Wagner Moura (22:09):
  "...there must be resistance, civilian resistance ... I'm not talking about guerrilla fighters ... but civil disobedience."

On Forgiving Atrocities

• Wagner Moura (15:49):
  "...it forgave all torturers and killers and people that did despicable things ... it's like the dictatorship forgiving themselves."

On Technology and Truth

• Wagner Moura (17:29):
  "The alignment of Facebook or whatever ... with the far right ... They have a project themselves."
• Alex Wagner (28:01):
  "People just want information ... who confirm that the way they think and see things is the right way. And anything that disrupts that is rejected as false ..."

On Art as Resistance

• Wagner Moura (51:14):
  "What fascists are afraid of is ... not what we say publicly. They are afraid of what we do."

On Generational Values

• Wagner Moura (16:59):
  "If trauma can be passed along generations ... values can too."

On Personal Risk

• Wagner Moura (32:18):
  "When I did ... Mariguela … under Bolsonaro's government, we received many death threats ..."

Key Timestamps

• 03:54 – 08:38: Personal reflections on parenthood, the making of "The Secret Agent", Brazil’s dictatorship, and art’s resonance across time.
• 10:10 – 14:23: Discussion of masculinity, state violence, and generational trauma.
• 15:49 – 18:23: Forgiveness for past atrocities, generational memory, and the impact of social media and tech oligarchs on contemporary politics.
• 22:09 – 25:55: The necessity of resistance and parallels between Brazilian and American state violence and reputational destruction.
• 27:35 – 29:39: The erosion of shared reality, “post-truth,” and dangers of polarized media ecosystems.
• 30:01 – 33:55: The personal risks of political outspokenness, backlash under Bolsonaro, and psychological toll.
• 34:38 – 39:43: Day-to-day life under dictatorship or autocracy; the normalization of repression; Trump’s open embrace of oil-driven intervention.
• 51:14 – 56:42: Art as true resistance; on-screen representation; impact of seeing Latinos in mainstream global franchises.
• 63:08 – 66:15: Future of Hollywood and art under technology and political pressure; optimism for art’s vital role.
• 68:19 – 71:12: Art and culture as nation-building; false dichotomy of public funding for the arts vs. other social needs.

Conclusion & Reflections

The episode stands as both a warning and a rallying cry. Wagner Moura’s personal and political insights, combined with Alex Wagner's probing questions, offer listeners a powerful meditation on the cyclical nature of authoritarianism, the fragility of democracy, and the enduring power of art. The conversation moves fluidly between the personal (parenting, immigrant anxieties, career decisions) and the political (resistance, memory, disinformation, racism), urging listeners—especially artists and those with platforms—to "pick a side" and participate actively in the struggle for democratic values, because “if trauma can be passed down generations, so can hope and values” ([16:59]).

For those who haven’t listened, this episode offers profoundly relevant, engaging reflections on art, politics, identity, and resistance—with a sense of urgency and hope rooted in lived history and personal conviction.

End of Summary