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- [00:00]
Jon Lovett
Today's presenting sponsor of SimpliSafe Home Security no one wants to imagine their home getting broken into, but the scary statistic is that every 26 seconds in the US a family experiences a break in. Scary, yes, but that's why SimpliSafe has worked to make home security accessible to more American families. I've set up a SimpliSafe. It's very easy to do. The customer support was great, gives you peace of mind. Plus the app is really easy to use and works great. Had a great experience. Traditionally, security systems only take action after someone has already broken in that's too late. SimpliSafe's Active Guard Outdoor Protection can help prevent break ins before they happen. AI powered cameras backed by Light Live professional monitoring agents monitor your property and detect suspicious activity. If someone is lurking around or acting suspiciously, those agents can see and talk to them in real time, activate spotlights and even contact the police all before they ever have a chance to get inside your home. No long term contracts or cancellation fees. Monitoring plans start affordably at around $1 per day, 60 day satisfaction guarantee or your money back. Name Best Home security systems by U.S. news World Report five years in a row ranked number one in customer service among home security providers by both Newsweek and USA Today. And right now our listeners can get 50% off their new Simply Safe system with professional monitoring and their first month free at simplisafe.com crooked that's simply safe.com crooked there's no safe like SimpliSafe.
- [01:11]
Dan Pfeiffer
If you love positive America and want more of my political analysis, you should subscribe to my newsletter, the Message Box. I'm Dan Pfeiffer, former senior advisor to Barack Obama, and in Message Box I break down what's actually happening in politics and what it's going to take to beat Donald Trump. Maga if you follow every poll and every twist and turn in the campaign message box is for you. This isn't just hot takes. Every edition delivers clear analysis, behind the scenes insight and practical strategy you can actually use whether you're working on a race, organizing your community or just trying to win the argument in your group chat. So if you're listening to this, hit pause, go to your browser and head to crooked.com yeswedan because I have a special offer for crooked media Fans. You'll get 20% off a message box for an entire year, so go to crooked.com yeswedan.
- [01:59]
Simone Sanders Townsend
With VRBoCare. Help is always ready before, during and after your stay. We've planned for the plot twists so Support is always available because a great
- [02:10]
Jon Lovett
trip starts with peace of mind.
- [02:34]
Jon Favreau
Welcome to Pod Save America. I'm Jon Favreau.
- [02:36]
Jon Lovett
I'm Jon Levitt.
- [02:36]
Tommy Vietor
And Tommy Vitor.
- [02:37]
Jon Favreau
On today's show, we're going to talk about Kash Patel's make a wish trip to pound beers with the U.S. men's hockey team. Donald Trump saying he's suffering for all of us while raising our taxes and potentially launching a war with Iran, which maybe he'll try making the case for during tonight's State of the Union, which he promises will be long. That's just a thing. What a preview. We'll also talk about what to expect from the big speech and all the different ways Democrats are planning to respond and pre spawned pre but post. But then our pals Simone Sanders Townsend and Eugene Daniels of Ms. Now stop by to talk with Lovett about their new podcast clock it, the upcoming Texas Senate primary and more. And a reminder, if you want even more Pod Save America, more politics, more laughs with all your favorite crooked hosts and I guess some of your least favorite too. There's gonna be some least favorite? Yeah, I guess. Please consider becoming a friend of the pod subscriber. You'll get our new extra episode of Pod Save America called Pod Save America. Only friends, other subscriber only shows like Polar Coaster with Dan Pfeiffer, access to all of our excellent substack newsletters like Pod Save America, open tabs ad free episodes of all your favorite crooked pods. And you get to feel good about supporting an independent pro democracy media outlet that doesn't take orders from Donald Trump or the Ellison.
- [03:54]
Tommy Vietor
There we go.
- [03:55]
Jon Lovett
Yeah. And once you get done subscribing to the bull work, come over here.
- [04:01]
Jon Favreau
Crooked.com friends travel cash Patel's travelogue.
- [04:05]
Tommy Vietor
That could be a show that's behind the pool.
- [04:08]
Jon Lovett
Yeah, yeah, yeah. Cash Patel's some reservations.
- [04:11]
Tommy Vietor
Pam Bondi's things you should care about.
- [04:14]
Jon Favreau
That's good. That's good. There you go. Put it behind the paywall. I love that none of you can listen unless you subscribe. Cricket.com friends all right, let's get to the news. The president heads into his State of the Union on the verge of a war with Iran that very few Americans want, an equally unpopular tariff regime that has been struck down by the Supreme Court and an approval rating that just hit January 6th. Lows in new polls from the Washington Post and CNN. So naturally, he's in a great headspace as he prepares for the biggest audience he'll get before the midterms. Here he is at a White House event on Monday.
- [04:46]
Jon Lovett
Polls are tough. You know, when you get a fake poll. I get them today. I saw one today that I'm at 40%. 40%. I'm not at 40%. I'm at much higher than that. It just amazes me that there's not more support out there. It's just we actually have a silent support. I think it's silent. I suffer for the country.
- [05:08]
Jon Favreau
He suffers silently. Do you guys think he'll be able to deliver the State of the Union with that cross on his back the whole time?
- [05:14]
Tommy Vietor
I hope so.
- [05:15]
Jon Lovett
Yeah. It's.
- [05:16]
Simone Sanders Townsend
He.
- [05:17]
Jon Lovett
He is going into this thing. The amount of. So he's gonna be in the room. There's gonna be all these Epstein people will get to it. He's gonna have the Supreme Court in front of them. He's gonna have these poll numbers in his head. He will have been told who he shouldn't be talking to. And it's gonna take every. Like he's gonna be shaking with his desire to break the script and go after that Supreme. I think it's gonna go all. At Roberts in the Supreme Court. All the energy, all the anger, all of it. That's my feeling right now.
- [05:45]
Jon Favreau
You don't think Susie Wiles will have the shock collar, like, sort of amped up?
- [05:51]
Tommy Vietor
She would like to, but. I could also imagine a scenario where Cash Patel comes out in full hockey pads, shotguns a beer, personally arrests a bunch of the Supreme Court justices, and then frog marches them out.
- [06:01]
Jon Favreau
That's. That's be dramatic. It would be content. I don't.
- [06:05]
Jon Lovett
Yeah. Cash Patel. I don't know if they make the. I guess you can get the teen size. Yes, they have. They have the.
- [06:10]
Tommy Vietor
Yeah, they make kids jerseys that are size.
- [06:12]
Simone Sanders Townsend
Yeah.
- [06:13]
Tommy Vietor
The only Washington Post had him at 60% disapproval. CNN has disapproval at 36%. 26% with independence. That feels bad.
- [06:20]
Jon Favreau
Marist University in the world.
- [06:22]
Tommy Vietor
Marist University. 57% of respondents said the State of the Union is not very strong or not strong at all. I guess those are all fake.
- [06:29]
Jon Favreau
32% says he has the right priorities. In The CNN poll, 68% says he hasn't paid enough attention to the country's most important problems. He is crushing it.
- [06:39]
Tommy Vietor
Let's go to war with Iran.
- [06:40]
Jon Lovett
Then every once in a while, he references the actual poll numbers and he has this sort of sad quality to him. And I actually prefer when he just makes up the numbers.
- [06:49]
Tommy Vietor
Me too.
- [06:49]
Jon Favreau
I feel like he wasn't getting any information that was real for at least the first year I feel like some, some real information's been getting through to him. I don't know who's, I don't know who's delivering it, but who's slipping it there. Yeah, yeah. Cuz he seemed genuinely like, why isn't, why isn't there more support? I don't understand. We're doing amazing stuff. There was some thought that Trump might take questions at that event about the war he's reportedly ready to launch against
- [07:13]
Tommy Vietor
the State of the Union. Yeah, it'd be so funny if he just took some cues.
- [07:16]
Jon Favreau
I mean, that's a good, we should talk about that later. But that is a good strategy. Turning into question time.
- [07:21]
Jon Lovett
It'd be better.
- [07:22]
Jon Favreau
Yeah. Instead of just like interrupting him, just keep asking the question, do it anyway. But, yeah, but people thought that maybe he would take event questions at that event. He did in the White House on Monday, maybe questions about the war he's reportedly ready to launch against Iran. But the White House seems to believe that's none of our business. The latest on potential military action as of this recording Monday evening is that the US And Iranian negotiators are scheduled to meet in Geneva on Thursday for one last ditch attempt at diplomacy. But Trump advisers are telling the Times that the President is considering an initial strike against Iran in the coming days to pressure them into some kind of a deal and may go for the full regime change operation later in the year. You're going to want to save that for later. It's all very confusing, including these comments over the weekend from Trump's top diplomat real estate buddy, Steve Witkoff, about an Iranian nuclear program that the Trump administration previously had assured us was, quote, obliterated.
- [08:17]
Jon Lovett
You know, they say that it's all about their civil program and yet they've been enriching well beyond the number that you need for civil nuclear. It's up to 60%. They're probably a week away from having industrial, industrial grade bomb making material and that's really dangerous.
- [08:42]
Jon Favreau
So what do you think, Tommy? Were they, were they lying before, lying now, or. I guess you don't have to choose. They could be lying and lying in both situations.
- [08:52]
Tommy Vietor
So I actually reached out to a couple, like genuine experts on Iran just to be like, what do you guys think he meant? And none of them were sure. They just genuinely did not know. I think the most charitable reading is he might be saying that Iran is a week away from being able to enrich their existing uranium stockpile to weapons grade, but that supposedly that material is supposed to be buried Under a mountain with all the centrifuges.
- [09:11]
Jon Favreau
Right.
- [09:12]
Tommy Vietor
Because of the last airstrike. So I don't know, maybe Wyckoff doesn't know what he's saying, but it's super triggering because that framing that like they're a week away or two weeks away is what we heard from Netanyahu for decades, what we heard from Trump the last time we bombed Iran. And then afterwards, as you guys recall, we were told the nuclear infrastructure was completely and totally obliterated. That's what he kept saying over and over again. He even fired intelligence analysts, us who said otherwise. And now here we are, not even a year later, doing this all again. And I think Witkoff's comments speak to this broader problem, which is why, like, why is this urgent? Why are we doing this right now? Like, what is the thing? Right? And it's also, what is the goal? Is it pressure them into making a diplomatic deal? Is it adopting the Israeli position that a deal has to deal with nukes, ballistic missiles, proxy groups like the Hezbollah and the Houthis? Is it retaliation for killing protesters? Remember, he said he was going to bomb them for that. Is it full on regime change? We have no ide. And it's not clear that Trump knows or has decided. We also don't know how Iran will retaliate. And so it just feels like we're about to go to war. But the reasons for it and the scope of it are not only not being debated, but they are secret from us. And that is very weird.
- [10:22]
Jon Favreau
I also feel like we should probably talk a little bit about. More about the. You mentioned retaliation, potential retaliation here, because it does not seem like this is without great risks to American interests and American lives. I saw that New York Times piece about how like, Iran. I'm sure you guys have been talking about this, Tommy, but like how Iran may, you know, direct its proxies to attack American interests in Europe, American troops, there could be energy disruptions right throughout the Middle east that could really shake our economy. I mean, there's just a. This is not a cost free. Let's lob in a few missiles. Or if he is just going to lob in a few missiles, then it doesn't seem like that's going to do anything.
- [11:03]
Jon Lovett
Yeah. And just all the more sort of dangerous when the people in charge of telling you what the policy is are in some measure incomprehensible or incoherent. They have industrial grade nuclear fissile material, like, as opposed to the farm to table stuff. Of course, it's Confusing to the experts. These people are in over their heads. Meanwhile, you see the stories about Trump having these sort of two phases in his mind. Like a really alarming. Because he's amassing, what is it like, a huge proportion of our military around Iran. Clearly he wants to do something. I am sure behind the scenes, they are telling members of Congress and others like, this is about creating pressure to get a deal, but we don't know what kind of deal they're trying to get. And then he says, actually, I may do a small war, a small set of strikes, and the big one will be later. Right? Because what is the. He took the lesson. He took, right? He took the lesson from the first strikes against Iran's nuclear facilities as a huge success for him politically and without the negative consequences that many feared. So he took that as a kind of win. So he imagines he could do that again, get all the plaudits, right? And like, Trump is not a guy that, like, delays gratification. He has put all of this military force in position. He's just going to withstand. Draw that. That isn't the. The tough boy, Donnie, you know, the guy that's like, so strong and so tough for America and for Israel that we've come to expect. So I just like, the whole thing is set up for us to be, at the very least, doing some kind of a military strike against Iran with zero real debate in Congress and zero understanding of the strategy at all. Shocking.
- [12:48]
Tommy Vietor
And remember, last time Iran responded, they basically fired what, like a dozen missiles at a base. They warned us in advance. They knew we'd shoot them down. They wanted to de. Escalate through that escalation. There's a lot of experts who now think Iran will decide that they need to raise the costs for the US or else they're just going to get bombed over and over and over again every six, 10, whatever, 12 months. And so they could respond with a giant salvo of ballistic missiles. They could hit US Bases in the Gulf. They could hit energy infrastructure. Like, they could hit a Saudi oil depot and send up prices. They could hit Tel Aviv, the Israeli targets. Like, all it takes is one or two missiles to get through and something really bad happens and you're on this escalation ladder. And then also, I mean, they have, like, pretty advanced cyber capabilities. They could go after the US Electric grid or, you know, dhs, meanwhile, is like getting rid of all of its cyber defense. So it's just, look, maybe there's a scenario where these guys have been decimated and they will not get a single missile off the ground because we are just so much better than them. And that's what happened in Venezuela. But it's like a, it's a pretty big bet.
- [13:45]
Jon Lovett
There was a line in the Times story that the, that the Ayatollah has instructed senior leaders to make sure the assassination attempts don't work.
- [13:54]
Tommy Vietor
It's like, yeah, man, smart move.
- [13:55]
Jon Lovett
Yeah, you should, that's a good idea. Make sure they don't work for you. That's right.
- [13:59]
Jon Favreau
Not that we can ever know what's going on in Donald Trump's adult mind, but I genuinely don't have any idea why he's doing this. Because, like, Venezuela sort of kooky, but you could kind of see like, okay, it was a Stephen Miller thing, it was a Rubio thing. He likes getting the oil right. You think Greenland, even that, you know, looks big on the map. He wants to take that. Like the Iran thing now at this moment, with this much firepower in the region is just baffling to me because it's like, well, I don't know, like Lindsey Graham's pushing him to do it. Right. But like, who else is really jonesing for a war with Iran in his orbit?
- [14:37]
Jon Lovett
Lindsey Graham's like a pig in Shiite.
- [14:42]
Tommy Vietor
I think I can imagine a couple arguments. One is another oil based argument, right. Suddenly the US controls like all the energy in the world. If we're controlling the Iranian oil infrastructure somehow and Venezuela and our own, it doesn't totally make sense. But sure, there's an argument that's like, Trump no longer cares about politics. He just wants to be viewed as a historic figure. And he's got Lindsey Graham in his ear being like, sir, if you take out Maduro and the Supreme Leader, you are like, you know, the greatest president in history. And maybe he's listening to that, like,
- [15:11]
Jon Favreau
pure appeal to vanity.
- [15:12]
Tommy Vietor
Yeah. And like, look, there's a lot of
- [15:14]
Jon Favreau
long term BB's doing that too.
- [15:15]
Tommy Vietor
We're genuinely low on munitions, especially like air interceptor missiles for the Patriot missile batteries, things like that. The Israelis are too, after the 12 day war. And so like the Chinese are sitting there watching this, being like, yes, fucking unload the clip. Have at it, boys. Like, you know, we'll just sit here quietly and see what happens. It's nuts. But politically, it's crazy.
- [15:33]
Jon Lovett
Yeah. The only other part of it to make sense of it is he wants to undo anything Obama did and do better than any anything Obama did. And so he is applying pressure in order to get some kind of a Deal, like, the timing only makes sense. The, the aggressive timing in the context of trying to get some kind of a deal, whatever that would be. And he wants to go out there and say, Obama sold out the country. I got the real deal, I fixed it, and I stopped yet another war. Right. Like that. That to me is honestly, it's a hopeful direction.
- [16:05]
Jon Favreau
Yeah. Well, I do think that, you know, Venezuela, like, we know that it was a pretty close call for the Special Forces. Like, he has sort of danced through the raindrops with a lot of these military strikes.
- [16:18]
Jon Lovett
He's done that his entire fucking life.
- [16:19]
Jon Favreau
Right, of course. But it's like at some point, you know, Americans get killed in this. These things can go south really fast.
- [16:27]
Tommy Vietor
No one was killed in the Venezuela operation, but a guy got shot in the leg, one of the helicopter pilots, and then nearly went down. And that was in part because clearly the US we know this from leaks that we had someone on the inside that, you know, turned on Maduro and set him up to get taken. I do think there is this sense that the post Afghanistan and Iraq conflicts have been largely cost free and that we can just bomb stuff with drones or B2 bombers and call today like, you know, the Cosmos Soleimani operation. In the first term, when Trump assassinated the then head of the irgc, they responded with a ballistic missile barrage. Only by the grace of God was no one killed. Like 100 service members got traumatic brain injuries and that sort of ended the escalation. But if, you know, one guy dies there, it's up and up and up.
- [17:06]
Jon Favreau
Yep. So you mentioned the politics. Here's the way a University of Maryland poll from a few weeks ago asked the question, do you favor or oppose the United States initiating an attack on Iran under the current circumstances? Oppose 49%, don't know, 30% and support gets 21%. And yet the war powers resolution from Ro Khanna and Thomas Massie, which would simply require Congress to authorize any kind of military action against Iran as it is laid out in the Constitution. And the War Powers act itself doesn't have the votes to pass, at least as of this moment. Why do you think that is?
- [17:41]
Jon Lovett
Well, look, the Venezuela resolution failed in the house 215 to 215. That was with Democratic unanimity. We've already lost Josh Gottheimer and Jared Moskowitz, who not only said they're opposed it, but put out a ridiculous statement claiming it was the Ayatollah Enabler act or Protection Act. Protection act, which is just like pretty insulting to Your to your colleagues and like such a kind of like glib minimization of the role of Congress in approving military force. But losing those means that even if you had basically every Democrat in favor of a war powers vote, you would still lose because Marjorie Taylor Greene is now gone and Thomas Massie is not very persuasive with his caucus.
- [18:24]
Jon Favreau
I think it's so embarrassing for any Democrat, really Republican too. I mean, I just don't expect as much from them. It's not to just say like, yes, I think we should, let's debate it. And I think Congress should vote to give the President authorization to like, just give up your own power before there's even a debate. Just give to Donald Trump of all people like Josh Gothammer, Jared Moskowitz, you trust Donald Trump. That's who you're deciding to give your power that the Constitution has authorized you with away to, to Donald Trump because you trust him to do war the right way. It's crazy.
- [19:00]
Jon Lovett
They're not proposing an actual vote to authorize the use of military force. They're just standing in the way of
- [19:05]
Jon Favreau
yes, that's what I'm saying.
- [19:06]
Jon Lovett
Of having a vote.
- [19:07]
Jon Favreau
And the excuses. When you get further into that crazy statement, this resolution would restrict the flexibility needed to respond to real and evolving threats and risks, signaling weakness at a dangerous moment. That is such fucking. Also like George W. Bush era Republican bullshit.
- [19:23]
Jon Lovett
That was a lot of the justification people used for voting in favor of the Iraq war authorization because they claimed it was merely to give George W. Bush leverage to prevent the war in the first place, which obviously is not what came to pass.
- [19:37]
Tommy Vietor
Yeah, I just, I feel like the debate is even worse than 2003 somehow.
- [19:42]
Jon Favreau
Yeah.
- [19:43]
Tommy Vietor
least then there was, there was a conversation about the underlying reason why we may or may go to war, which is this false claim of WMDs that that literally isn't happening. It's just like, hey, look, we've amassed a ton of military assets in the region and what's Trump going to decide? Like, here's some leaks about the menu of options before him. Is he going to just have an appetizer? Is he going to go with the full like, you know, it's just like,
- [20:03]
Jon Favreau
it's like a video game.
- [20:05]
Tommy Vietor
It's crazy. And like, meanwhile, like there, there's like a real human cost here. Like the USS Gerald Ford has now one of the aircraft carriers. They've had their deployment extended twice. So they've been out for eight months. They will possibly be out for 11 months. These are sailors with, you know, families, little kids, wives, husbands. They can only have sporadic contact with their family for OPSEC reasons. Like they'll go into quote unquote ghost mode for weeks at a time where you just like can't contact people. And also the fucking toilets are broken on the ship.
- [20:30]
Jon Lovett
I saw that.
- [20:30]
Tommy Vietor
And like to fix them full you have to dock. So there's 45 minute lines for a toilet on an aircraft carrier. Like imagine the nightmare for these guys.
- [20:38]
Jon Lovett
It's like right before the we record the Pod.
- [20:47]
Tommy Vietor
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Jon Lovett
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Tommy Vietor
That's what she said.
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Jon Lovett
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- [23:28]
Jon Favreau
It's also yet another issue splitting MAGA world for various reasons we just saw the debate play out during the Tucker Carlson's recent interview with U.S. ambassador to Israel Mike Huckabee, which produced this viral clip about Israel's role in the Middle east that the administration has also been trying to walk back. Let's listen.
- [23:44]
Jon Lovett
I just read Genesis 15 as I have many times, and that land, I think it says from the Nile to the Euphrates, which is once again basically the entire Middle East. So God gave that land to his people, the Jews. Or he didn't. You're saying he did. What does that mean? Does Israel have the right to that land? Because you're appealing to Genesis. Yeah. You're saying that's the original deed. It would be fine if they took it all, but I don't think that's what we're talking about here today. What would be fine? Well, it's exactly what we're talking about today. Well, but here's what I don't think you're I think it would be fine if the state of Israel took over
- [24:23]
Jon Favreau
all they want to take it over
- [24:25]
Jon Lovett
that they're not asking to take it over.
- [24:29]
Jon Favreau
I will say beyond those comments, Huckabee's case for war with Iran seemed to have quite a few holes in it. What did you guys make of that interview and the broader intra MAGA debate over Iran?
- [24:43]
Jon Lovett
First of all, Huckabee just does such a terrible job in this interview. It's really sort of hard to watch. Tucker just asks him hard questions and just he can't defend the position. He just can't defend the position. He can't defend the civilian casualties in Gaza. He can't defend Israel's conduct of the war. And Tucker really makes a meal of it. At the same time, Tucker is someone who has had sort of a slavish conversation with Nick Fuentes. He's had Holocaust deniers on. And so, like, you see Tucker give Huckabee a really hard time. And he is a. Tucker is a very smart, like, very sophisticated interviewer. And it is, I think, notable that he turns in on in this conversation, but doesn't turn it on in some of those other interactions. Right. And so it's hard. You watch this. You're like, yeah, I'm glad to see Huckabee face these tough questions in this sort of very sort of tense way. But then you think this is sort of Tucker with an agenda of his own. And Tucker actually starts. Did you watch the beginning? Where he talks, like 20 minutes about the circumstances of the interview in a kind of vaguely conspiratorial way and the ways in which it was clear Huckabee really didn't want to have the debate and they wouldn't let them leave the airport. The whole thing was very strange. So I came away, like, kind of glad to see Huckabee put on the spot, but then, like, a little bit uncomfortable with the kind of the fact that it had to come from Tucker Carlson of all places.
- [26:06]
Eugene Daniels
Yeah.
- [26:07]
Tommy Vietor
I mean, Tucker's got some questionable motives, I think it's fair to say, but just in terms of, like, pure performance, like taking out the two individuals. I mean, it's a fascinating interview because Tucker comes in with a plan and he lays a trap, which is he knows, he wants to ask, why does Israel have a right to exist? And do all countries have a right? This is a universal principle. And he knows that Huckabee will cite both international law and theology. Right. He'll say that, as he said there, that it's a divine right that comes from Genesis 15. And Tucker is pushing on this because he knows that those two arguments are fundamentally irreconcilable. And it culminates in Huckabee saying, yes, a literal reading would say Israel should control the entire Middle east and, quote, it would be fine if they took it all. Which is an absolutely crazy thing for him to say. Obviously, like, was not his intention. Right. But it led to this massive backlash. There were statements from Oman, Qatar, Pakistan, Turkey, the uae, Kuwait, Saudi Arabia, Jordan, Egypt, oic, the League of Arab States.
- [27:02]
Jon Favreau
Like every country in the region, they like that.
- [27:05]
Tommy Vietor
They were not thrilled.
- [27:06]
Jon Lovett
It simply would not be fine if they took it all.
- [27:08]
Tommy Vietor
It would not be fine. It would be a real problem.
- [27:09]
Jon Favreau
But they're not asking for it.
- [27:10]
Jon Lovett
So it would be fine if they did. Yeah, but that's not what they want.
- [27:13]
Jon Favreau
That's not what they want.
- [27:14]
Eugene Daniels
Yes.
- [27:14]
Tommy Vietor
And it highlights actually like how much of an extremist Huckabee is on all the policy areas he oversees because he says he opposes a two state solution. He supports Israel annexing the West Bank. He says there is no west bank, there's only Judea and Samaria. He says there's no such thing as a Palestinian. And so like Tucker is being a troll. We question his motives. But there's also like, I think from the countries that responded, again, a lot of reasons they lash out at Israel. Some of its anti Semitism, some of its bias, but some of it is genuine anger about Israel's territorial expansion in that dates back to 1967 and the Six Day War. But also like settlement construction, the slow motion annexation of the West Bank. Israel has taken territory in Syria and Lebanon recently since the October 7th. So it was, it was a riveting interview between two pretty flawed people. Yeah.
- [28:04]
Jon Favreau
I also think it, you know, the situation with Iran sort of combines the anti war strain in the MAGA world with the anti Israel, especially anti Israeli government strain in MAGA world too. And at one point Tucker goes in on, well, Bibi Netanyahu has been to the White House seven times. He's like, what other foreign leader has had a meeting with Trump seven times in the last year? And where has the debate been with the American people over whether we launch another war? And you can see a lot of the anti war stuff that Tucker's doing. You could see like gain a lot of traction, not just with, I mean, because it is how most Americans feel about war, especially war with Iran that no one has told us why we're waging or may wage.
- [28:48]
Jon Lovett
He also does some.
- [28:49]
Jon Favreau
But with Republicans, he also does this
- [28:51]
Jon Lovett
dual loyalty stuff with Tucker and Huckabee. He does kind of, he goes into sort of DNA and who has the right to the land. And then he does sort of, sort of America being sort of controlled by Israel and making decisions on behalf of Israel. And so yeah, there is this, I would say like the alignment is between sort of anti war America first types and some of the sort of the virulent anti Semitism, anti Israel. Oh, that's the other thing he does. He had to apologize. He actually apologized for it. But he made reference to the president of Israel, Herzog being in the Epstein files. And Herzog sent up a long letter basically saying, like, this is false and, like, a complete fabrication. And Tucker clearly, I guess, in a way that sounds like someone who's worried about defamation came out and said. Said I didn't know anything beyond what I read. I don't have any reason to believe it is true. If you defame. If you malign somebody, you should correct it. So he corrects it. But clearly he is swimming in the kind of conspiratorial waters.
- [29:48]
Jon Favreau
He goes off on the Epstein files, too. And Huckabee's like, well, I'm the ambassador to Israel, so I don't. And he's like, you haven't read the Epstein files. He's like, you don't know what's going on in the Epstein files. You're trying to tell me. It's so funny. Tucker really does the. I'm so confused. Yeah, I'm not mad. I'm just confused.
- [30:03]
Jon Lovett
Yes. I don't understand. I don't understand this sort of like, babe in the woods thing.
- [30:07]
Tommy Vietor
Yes. The interview starts quite hot. It's. Yes, It's Jonathan Pollard, who is a guy who spied on the US on behalf of Israel, who Huckabee met with for some reason at the embassy. Then I think it's into Epstein or then it goes into, like, some Israeli official who, like, is accused of molesting Kurtis. Like, it's all. It's like, it's just kind of weird stuff. But on the. On the kind of intermaga. Iran split, like, there are some genuine Iran splits. Some of it is very hard to deduplicate at times. The anti Israel, anti Semitism from the anti war stuff.
- [30:39]
Jon Favreau
Right.
- [30:39]
Tommy Vietor
And that is. That is a troubling piece of this. I do think I would divide it into, like, elite opinion, into voter opinion on the elites. I still think when you're talking about electeds and media types, the hawkish, traditional neocons are still like, the majority. It's like the Wall Street Journal editorial page, Lindsey Graham. Like, those are the people, I think, in Trump's ear the most.
- [30:56]
Jon Favreau
Although Tucker, the Murdoch empire.
- [30:58]
Tommy Vietor
Yeah, Tucker was at the White House today. Right. Wasn't there a tweet about that? But Unlike Iraq in 2003, you now have this far right faction of people like Tucker or Nick Fuentes, similar, like, candidates overlap. Candace. And then some folks who are very hardcore anti war. And then there's some folks in, I think, like, the podcaster manosphere ecosystem who are more just kind of like, why are we doing this?
- [31:19]
Jon Favreau
Right.
- [31:20]
Tommy Vietor
And then you have the people in the traditional kind of more MAGA suck upy space who are just like, Trump hasn't made the case yet. They don't. They're like, where we are right now, it's just like, why? Why does he want us to do that? Then there's voters who are like, what? What the fuck are you doing? Like, I care about tariffs, I care about inflation or whatever. And I think ultimately some of these arguments are a good faith, like, hey, Iraq was bad. Why are we doing this again? Shouldn't we spend money elsewhere? Some of it's kind of weird. I think ultimately, if Trump does, like another, what, one or two day bombing raid like he did last time, like, they just won't share and they'll move on.
- [31:54]
Jon Lovett
That's what he's counting on, too.
- [31:55]
Tommy Vietor
Yeah, but if it's protracted, like, it's a whole different story. Especially if, if the Iranians blow something up in the straight order moves and oil prices go through the roof and then there's real economic fallout.
- [32:05]
Jon Favreau
Yeah. Well, the one thing about wars, you can always predict what's gonna happen and they end fast. Now, I know everyone's accusing Trump of not focusing enough on the struggles of everyday Americans, but that's clearly not true. He's passionate about making them worse by raising taxes again. After the Supreme Court declared his tariffs illegal on Friday in a 6, 3 decision, Trump almost immediately announced a new 10% tariff on all foreign goods, which he then quickly raised to 15% on Saturday outbid himself. The President has been bitching about the court since Friday. This morning he posted that from now on, he'll be spelling Supreme Court with lowercase letters based on a complete lack of respect.
- [32:42]
Tommy Vietor
Got him.
- [32:43]
Jon Favreau
Got him.
- [32:43]
Jon Lovett
I thought it was me too.
- [32:44]
Jon Favreau
I'm gonna be doing the same thing
- [32:45]
Jon Lovett
because he had been reading a lot of EE Cummings.
- [32:47]
Jon Favreau
I also have a lack of respect for the Supreme Court, so I'm gonna give him the lowercase letter treatment.
- [32:52]
Jon Lovett
I love those. Sort of like the news over the last couple of days, it's like, in a historic blow to Trump's agenda, the Supreme Court has removed his tariffs. The tariffs are back.
- [33:03]
Jon Favreau
Trump officials are also out there expressing confidence that they'll be able to use other authorities to keep most of the tariff rates where they were before the Supreme Court decision, and they won't be taking any action to refund the illegal taxes we've all been paying since Liberation Day. According to Politico, this commitment to fighting for tax hikes in an election year has Democrats quote Frothing at the mouth, for starters. Senate Democrats released a refund proposal on Monday. Governor J.B. pritzker trolled the administration by sending a letter publicly demanding a refund check for every Illinois family. Newsom said pretty much the same thing on CNN over the weekend. Let's play a clip.
- [33:37]
Tommy Vietor
He needs to return that money. Needs to refund that money with interest.
- [33:40]
Jon Lovett
He can do that in a nanosecond.
- [33:42]
Tommy Vietor
The problem is, for families, it's been about $1,701 a year.
- [33:48]
Jon Lovett
That's a different requirement that I think
- [33:50]
Tommy Vietor
he has to pay the American people back. I saw Besant out there almost gleeful. He was gleeful that, no, we won't be doing it.
- [33:57]
Jon Lovett
This is dumb and dumber. Trump and Bessant. What, is he doing this in a gallery?
- [34:02]
Tommy Vietor
Is that a Gustav Klimt behind him? Was that the kiss?
- [34:05]
Jon Favreau
I couldn't tell if that was. Oh, he was in Nashville. So he was somewhere in Nashville for his book event.
- [34:09]
Jon Lovett
Huh?
- [34:10]
Jon Favreau
Okay. I only know that because I think Dana Bash said I talked to him in Nashville, so I assume that's the only.
- [34:14]
Tommy Vietor
It was weird.
- [34:14]
Jon Lovett
His postmodernism reached Nashville.
- [34:16]
Jon Favreau
Okay.
- [34:19]
Tommy Vietor
I love saying he could do that in a nanosecond.
- [34:21]
Jon Lovett
Nanoseconds, very fast.
- [34:23]
Jon Favreau
It's like they're all one upping each other. It's like, with interest. J.B. pritzker says refund. I'm saying refund with interest. So we've talked about the Supreme Court decision a bunch from Friday over the weekend. Everyone should check out our YouTube for that. But what do you guys make of Trump doubling down? And are your mouths as frothy as other Democrats?
- [34:42]
Jon Lovett
I love the refund proposal. I think we should just be hammering the refund postal. Everybody's entitled to seventeen hundred dollars. Where's my seventeen hundred dollars? Get me my seventeen hundred dollars. I think that that is. That is great. The other part of this is the leverage. Trump clearly is afraid he's losing because of this ruling, because he's posting these unhinged things about how I have license to destroy other countries. Be careful what you wish for. And so he's sort of like, I think, worried about what this will mean for his effort to kind of continuously have news cycle after news cycle about how he's sort of pummeling our trading partners around the world, which he views as good for him. I don't know. Yes, I think we should be hammering this all the time. He's fighting to keep taxes high and costs high for Americans. And by the way, he's keeping your money. It feels like a no brainer to me.
- [35:23]
Tommy Vietor
Yeah, I'm frothing. I'm a, I'm a walking bubble bath over here. I'm a cappuccino. This just occurred to me though.
- [35:29]
Jon Favreau
Remember he's going to go more the rabies.
- [35:31]
Tommy Vietor
Rabies. Your rabid raccoon. So I feel like, you know, at one point I was worried that he would give everyone like a tariff stipend. Right? Like a tariff stimulus. Don't tell. No if we.
- [35:43]
Jon Favreau
Are we not worried that that would.
- [35:44]
Tommy Vietor
Because this just occurred to me like what if he did write everyone a seventeen hundred dollar check as JB Pritzker said? Would framing it as a refund, I guess defang the political value? Is that the hope or the hope is that he would just never do it because you feel like it would be under duress.
- [35:56]
Jon Favreau
I know, I didn't think about that. And then I heard Jesse Waters be like Democrats have stepped into a trap now he's gonna do a refund right before the election. But I was like, I mean that would be the smart political thing to do. But it doesn't seem like first of all, I mean he would have to just do it illegally like he does everything else because it would never pass Congress because they don't want to. They keep floating this in Congress and Republicans keep knocking it down thune. All of them, they're just like, no, we're not doing a refund check. We have a death set and everything's too expensive and blah blah, blah. So there's that. But they also don't have the. I mean, I guess they could do it, but they feel like that's maybe giving up. Maybe that's.
- [36:31]
Tommy Vietor
I don't know.
- [36:32]
Jon Favreau
Maybe. I don't know.
- [36:33]
Jon Lovett
Well, I think it's.
- [36:33]
Jon Favreau
I would. Cause I think this is, I'm also frothing. I think this is the, this is incredible that he is just going forward with this.
- [36:39]
Jon Lovett
I think there's no downside for Democrats saying every American deserves a check from the illegally. This is basically money that was stolen from you, from our country. We pay the tariffs, we're educating people about it as we go. Like you're all paying these fucking tariffs.
- [36:55]
Jon Favreau
Look, we're educating you, but like, but
- [36:57]
Jon Lovett
we're having the people.
- [36:58]
Tommy Vietor
I agree.
- [36:59]
Jon Lovett
And you will get. And if you don't get the money, it is because Trump pocketed your money. He cut taxes for corporations, he's cut taxes for his wealthy friends, but they can't afford to give you the $1700 took from you illegally. And then if he does it, great, Trump caves to Democrats and gives Americans money. I think we could make that argument or he doesn't. And that's something we can keep running on and hammering through November. So I don't see the downside to pushing really hard.
- [37:22]
Tommy Vietor
You know, I agree on the messaging. I just wonder, like, what happens if we catch the car? It would be an interesting situation. And, like, but before, I mean, before this ruling, Fox News had a poll where they found 63% of registered voters disapproved of Trump's handling of the tariffs. So basically, he's just drawing more attention to a wildly unpopular policy to begin with. It looks weak, he looks angry. It looks chaotic, like. And voters are just like, it's not gonna solve the problem, which is voters are mad about costs. And nothing he's doing is going to fix it. It's going to make it worse.
- [37:50]
Jon Favreau
No more illegal taxes to pay for the President's illegal wars. Just run around saying that for the next nine months. And the illegal taxes, they used to just be taxes, now they're illegal taxes. When is the last time either party has proudly run on raising taxes on, like, most middle class Americans, working class Americans, poor Americans, like that, like, not tried to say we're not actually raising taxes. And even though it might be true or this. No. Just out there being like, no, no, no. We are fighting hard to keep this tax increase in effect. And by the way, we want to keep your taxes high.
- [38:25]
Jon Lovett
And what are we using?
- [38:26]
Jon Favreau
Vote for Republicans.
- [38:27]
Jon Lovett
And what are we using it for? We're going to use it to buy a plane. We're going to use it to send Kash Patel on a whirlwind vacation.
- [38:34]
Jon Favreau
Noam and Lewandowski are getting their fucking job.
- [38:38]
Jon Lovett
They're in the mile high club. And by the way, a bunch of wars never approved by Congress, never voted on, never debated. Terrific. Terrific.
- [38:48]
Jon Favreau
Oh, and we're terrorizing various American communities that didn't vote for the president by rounding people up and throwing them in jail and sometimes killing them.
- [38:55]
Jon Lovett
Though money's gone to that, too.
- [38:56]
Jon Favreau
Yeah. So it doesn't seem popular, doesn't seem popular, but we'll see.
- [39:09]
Tommy Vietor
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- [39:12]
Jon Lovett
I had a moment when I had realized I had to get my finances under control. It was when I was in what I call call my lost year, and I realized that I had a lot of mail and it was collecting in a garbage bag and that there was some stuff from the IRS in there. But the cool thing was the first letter said I owed them money, the second letter said they were going to take it out of my account, and the third letter said I was all good.
- [39:33]
Tommy Vietor
Well, sounds like. Sounds like you could use Rocket Money, huh?
- [39:36]
Jon Lovett
And price some therapy at the time.
- [39:38]
Tommy Vietor
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- [40:24]
Jon Lovett
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- [40:56]
Tommy Vietor
Truly daunting.
- [40:57]
Jon Lovett
I have a lot of quint stuff that I'm bringing. Quints works directly with top factories and cut out the middlemen. So you're not paying for brand markup, just quality clothing. Everything is built to hold up to daily wear and still look good season after season. Plus they only partner with factories that meet rigorous safety standards for craftsmanship and ethical production. Huge fan of quints. Have a bunch of stuff from there. Not just clothes. Some sheets bag. They have great stuff. You should just go there and check it out because they have a range of stuff that compares to more expensive brands. So you should just kind of make it a habit to check to see if there's a better option there. Refresh your wardrobe with Quince. Go to quince.comcrooked for a free shipping on your order and 365 day returns. Now available in Canada too. That's Q-U-I-N-C-E.comcrooked free shipping and 365 day returns. Quince.comcrooked
- [41:43]
Jon Favreau
you may be upset that Trump's taxes on all the shit you buy aren't going away, but at least that money is going to a good cause, which is flying the FBI director to Milan so he could pound beers in the locker room with the US Men's hockey team. By now you've probably seen the leaked video of Cash Patel partying with the gold medalists, who he calls his good friends in a way that's totally believable. I'm sure they're buddies. You may also have seen the vigorous denials from Patel's spokesperson that the point of Patel's trip was to go to the Olympics. He obviously had mission critical official FBI meetings that just happened to be in Milan at the exact same time as the gold medal game, which unfortunately had to take the FBI director away from lesser duties like keeping Americans safe or figuring out how another guy with a gun got past the security perimeter at Mar A Lago. So Tommy and I ranted about this on YouTube on Monday. Lovett, did you happen to have any thoughts on this one?
- [42:28]
Jon Lovett
Yeah, two points I'd wanna make one. I think the most pathetic part of the whole thing is how often Kash Patel refers to the hockey team as the boys.
- [42:36]
Tommy Vietor
The boys.
- [42:36]
Jon Lovett
He calls them the boys.
- [42:37]
Tommy Vietor
It's a very hockey thing to talk.
- [42:39]
Jon Lovett
They're his friends. Oh, hanging with the boys. You're not one of the boys. You've never been. I think your whole life is a story of a man desperate to be one of the boys who will never be one of the boys. You look out of place in every. There's never been an outfit Kash Patel has worn that doesn't look like it doesn't belong on him. He just always looks out of place and uncomfortable. Too big, too small, too stiff, whatever it is. So the embarrassing thing of calling, of desperately trying to hang with the boys was interesting. And the other is a lot of pressing work in the Dolomites, a lot of important investigations going on in the mountainous region of the Italian Alps for the FBI director. Look, we've all. Look, everybody out there who's traveled for work knows that you can play some games and have a work trip that also is fun. We just went to Melbourne, Sydney and Auckland you know, we can, but we're not the FBI director. And Brisbane, of course, we don't have
- [43:41]
Jon Favreau
quite the same remit as Cash Patel,
- [43:43]
Jon Lovett
of course, but the idea that, like, you think people can't see through this, that you created some silly cover meetings to justify calling it a work trip.
- [43:51]
Tommy Vietor
Nobody joke.
- [43:52]
Jon Lovett
It's a fucking joke. Well, expense it.
- [43:55]
Jon Favreau
It's like if you're. If you're in the administration, obviously everyone's jockeying to see who gets to go to the Winter Olympics. And there's always a delegation that they send. And so you're like, oh, maybe Marco wants to go, or maybe JD Vance wants to go. Who, when, or whatever else. But it's like on rare occasions, meaning never is the FBI director one of the people jockeying for that.
- [44:16]
Jon Lovett
Because they should have shit to do. And they're not. And they're not. They're not part of this. Like the, like we. We in the. We in our system, diplomats, ambassadors, the head of state and the head of our government is the same function. And so a lot of them have to perform that function. And we can say it's silly and maybe not worth their time and not worth the money, but we send.
- [44:32]
Jon Favreau
And JD Vance doesn't have anything better to do. Good for him for going. Dignitaries, like, you know, that guy doesn't have a job.
- [44:37]
Jon Lovett
And by the way, like, it is the Olympics and they do represent America and these people are our elected leaders and I don't care for it. But that. That you can make sense of that, that's fine. Like, he is the head of the FBI. He is a law enforcement official right now, but he's. He's pounding beers in the fucking locker room. It's all so embarrassing.
- [44:53]
Jon Favreau
At least $75,000 on our tab.
- [44:55]
Eugene Daniels
At least.
- [44:55]
Tommy Vietor
It's way more. I guarantee it's more. Because the FBI director is required by law to fly on a Gulfstream G550 airplane. It's a private jet. Because they need security and secure comm. So the cost of just the gas alone has got to be like five, ten grand an hour. It's an 18 hour trip. Then there's this.
- [45:09]
Jon Favreau
I gotta steal the oil from Venezuela.
- [45:10]
Tommy Vietor
Steal the oil. There's security, there's accommodations, there's God knows what else. And so Patel, like, he'll pay back a fraction of that, but someone in Congress just. I know we can't. But like, it would be so great to subpoena the actual cost of this because I bet it's a lot of money.
- [45:24]
Jon Lovett
Great thing to Promise. For when we win the house.
- [45:26]
Tommy Vietor
Yes. But it also just. It misses the bigger opportunity cost of having this industrial string douchebag as their FBI director.
- [45:32]
Jon Favreau
And more industrial strength.
- [45:34]
Tommy Vietor
Not doing serious stuff. He's not qualified for the job and he doesn't spend any of his time actually doing it. He's been to Ultimate Fighting events in Miami and Las Vegas. He went to a hockey game with Wayne Gretzky in New York. I'd love to do that, but he should have better to do he. During the manhunt for Charlie Kirk's killer, Cash Patel was tweeting out inaccurate information from some exclusive restaurant in New York City. He goes on trips to visit his girlfriend. He went to see her sing the national anthem at a low rent wrestling match at Penn State. He took the FBI PJ to Scotland for a golf weekend with the boys. The boys again. He took it to a weekend vacation at a place called I shit you not, the boondoggle ranch, owned by a big Republican donor. Like, again, this guy is a fucking clown and he's making a mockery of everyone who voted for him.
- [46:18]
Jon Lovett
Apparently there's a lot of like, outrage inside the FBI about this. I mean, that's why we've gotten all these leaks. The leaks of him sort of putting on his little coat and doing a performance of FBI Director. So much of what he thinks the job is, it's just sort of a performance. It's what's public facing. It's the headlines, it's the stories.
- [46:35]
Jon Favreau
Tweet out information mid investigation that turns out not to be true. Loves to do that. You can do that anywhere. You know we got him.
- [46:42]
Tommy Vietor
Jk.
- [46:43]
Jon Favreau
Yeah.
- [46:44]
Tommy Vietor
Who knows what Trump will do or like, if he'll fire him. He doesn't fire anyone. He probably doesn't want to go through another confirmation process. I guarantee you he's seen these stories. I guarantee you he is pissed about it. We know there's been reporting that he was pissed about the travel and the PJ to visit the girlfriend. This will get onto his radar screen in part because it's not just libs like us that are talking about this. It is right Winger. There's this guy, Kyle Seraphin, who's a former FBI guy who's on Infowars all the time, who goes after Cash Patel all day, every day. His tweet about this stuff had millions of views last night. Like, this will get to Trump. This is the kind of thing that if you're Susie Wiles, the chief of staff, and you're watching this cabinet Full of morons. Create bad headlines for you. This will piss you off. And you will be like, rein it the fuck in.
- [47:26]
Jon Favreau
Not one of them has made Trump look better. Like, like, the cabinet is doing such a bad job.
- [47:31]
Jon Lovett
Doug Burgam erasure.
- [47:33]
Jon Favreau
Even if you're like, yeah, maybe Doug, he's like, on the better end of this. And Labor Secretary, she's got shit.
- [47:38]
Jon Lovett
What is that story with the husband?
- [47:41]
Jon Favreau
I thought RK Jr. They're like. They're like. They're.
- [47:43]
Jon Lovett
They're shaking up Duffy.
- [47:45]
Jon Favreau
They're shaking up hhs. Yes. They're taking away RFK staffers because they're like, hey, we're done with the anti vaccine stuff. Let's just have them go talk about raw milk and being healthy or whatever.
- [47:55]
Jon Lovett
And by the way, the White House had to get RFK Jr to reverse a decision about a moderna vaccine that they weren't even gonna allow.
- [48:03]
Jon Favreau
Lutniks on Epstein Island. Gnomes fucking in the back of the plane.
- [48:06]
Jon Lovett
I'm telling you, Sean Duffy, former Real World contestant, he's the best fucking one.
- [48:10]
Tommy Vietor
He really is. He's doing fine. Remember the planes were crashing at the beginning, though.
- [48:14]
Simone Sanders Townsend
That was a huge.
- [48:15]
Jon Lovett
Yeah, the planes were touching and that
- [48:16]
Tommy Vietor
was a huge problem in the spot.
- [48:18]
Jon Lovett
Planes are touching.
- [48:19]
Jon Favreau
They were going fast and touching.
- [48:20]
Jon Lovett
They were touching.
- [48:21]
Jon Favreau
Bad for planes.
- [48:21]
Jon Lovett
They're not supposed to touch. But again, it's not his fault. They still use floppy disks.
- [48:25]
Jon Favreau
Scott Besson's out there like fucking Richie Rich.
- [48:31]
Tommy Vietor
So mean to him. He's just, you know, farming soybeans.
- [48:33]
Jon Favreau
That's fucking drunks blowing up boats.
- [48:36]
Tommy Vietor
He just really. It's just posting photos of himself. Benching.
- [48:39]
Jon Lovett
Benching. The benching. The benching photo of. Was it. They claimed it was like £315 or something like that. No, that seems like a lot.
- [48:47]
Tommy Vietor
It's a solid max.
- [48:48]
Jon Lovett
And what is benching? What does that prove?
- [48:50]
Tommy Vietor
Do you think that you have male pectorals, Big pecs.
- [48:53]
Jon Lovett
The other boys. You know what?
- [48:55]
Jon Favreau
He could strangle the mullahs with his bare hands.
- [48:58]
Jon Lovett
I'll tell you something.
- [48:58]
Simone Sanders Townsend
I'll tell you something.
- [48:59]
Jon Lovett
Men bench press for other men. Men do Pilates for women. That's what I'll show you. That's what I'll say.
- [49:06]
Jon Favreau
Okay, sure. Anyway, where were we? All right, before we get to Levitt's interview with Simone and Eugene, let's talk a little bit more about the state of the Union. You know, President, the expectation setting for him has been just on point telling us it's gonna be very long, which is what America craves. Democrats are preparing to respond in all different kinds of ways, as we are wont to do. If you're looking for a more traditional reaction, you can tune in to watch Virginia Governor Abigail Spanberger give the official Democratic response. If you're in the market for something a bit more ideological, Congresswoman Summer Lee is giving the progressive response. If you want to watch what's gonna make Megyn Kelly angry, you can catch the Spanish language response from Senator Alex Padilla.
- [49:50]
Tommy Vietor
They say all of the above.
- [49:52]
Jon Favreau
There's a State of the Union prebuttal from Congresswoman LaMonica McIver and a post speech rally on the National Mall called the People State of the Union. Some Democrats intend to skip the speech. Others have said they plan to go. And still others have said they plan to defy Hakeem Jeffrey's instructions to avoid disrupting the speech. What do you think? Anything else we're missing? Anything else they should throw in here?
- [50:13]
Jon Lovett
The one thing I would just add is just that the guests that they're bringing is that Schumer and others are bringing victims or people that have been impacted by Epstein. I think that is an interesting way to respond to kind of puts Trump.
- [50:27]
Jon Favreau
Bringing Trump. He's already gonna be there.
- [50:28]
Jon Lovett
Well, yeah, right. For sure. But I think that at least is using the moment to kind of force Trump to confront something or at least the image will force Trump to confront something or not confront something, which I think is interesting. I will just say, if I were a member of Congress and you told me I could patriotically skip the State of the Union, it would be a me shaped hole in the side of that fucking Capitol. Oh, you mean for my country, I can skip this fucking long speech. Okay. I'll do it for America.
- [50:52]
Jon Favreau
Yeah. What about you?
- [50:54]
Tommy Vietor
Yeah. On the pre bottle things like if, you know, if a sotu prebuttal streamed on the Mall, does it even make a sound like I don't care? The idea of an official response was always kind of dumb. It never worked and never got covered. I think in this media age, it's even sillier. And so it's like it's fin that there's like 25 of them. Who cares? We're not. There's no coordinating message. Everyone's just out there doing their thing. I think I would skip two. Like, what's the upside for going?
- [51:20]
Jon Favreau
The upside for show respect or the upside for going is to. I mean, everything is a game for attention. Right. All of these are going to compete for attention in a way that is probably most are not going to be successful because like you said, you know, maybe people who still have the TV on catch the official response after the State of the Union is done, if they get up to go to the bathroom and they haven't shut the ct, you know, like. So there's maybe some of that. But like the people who are going to tune into the people State of the Union or to the prebuttal or this or that, it's basically like your own audience. Right. Like if you tend to follow those people, then you're going to follow them on this maybe. So it's not like you're breaking through. And so the only other option is to try to create a tension in some way at the State of the Union. So if you're gonna go and either disrupt the speech, you know, try to turn it into question time, have a guest that somehow Trump notices or the media notices and ask questions about and then that becomes a little story. So it's just like the only case for going is to somehow create an attentional moment.
- [52:21]
Jon Lovett
Yeah.
- [52:21]
Jon Favreau
Otherwise like, why bother?
- [52:23]
Jon Lovett
I do think where we're at now, and I talked about this a bit with Eugene and Simone, but like the idea that we should. But yes, it does seem disjointed, but that's fine. Who cares? And really, yes, most people will be performing for their own audiences, but you take that many shots on goal, you will end up with something hopefully that can get beyond the bubble and like
- [52:42]
Jon Favreau
some clips, something that you can celebrate with cash, right?
- [52:45]
Jon Lovett
Exactly. Yeah. On the flight home perhaps. But yeah, I just think you can get some viral moments that come out of this. I don't know who knows what they are. But like that I think has to. I don't know well. Cause like Al Green stood up last time and you couldn't quite understand him in the. He stood up and he was saying something and kind of found out later what it was.
- [53:08]
Jon Favreau
Did anyone remember that Al Green was escorted out last time until you write about it today? Because I didn't.
- [53:14]
Jon Lovett
I did not remember it till I was reminded of it today for sure.
- [53:18]
Tommy Vietor
I remembered it just now with my memory. I didn't research this part very much because I think it's fine. What was he yelling like you have no mandate to cut Social Security or something like that. It was something along those to know. Look, there is a huge incentive to be disruptive, get carried out in some way, make that all about the speech. And you could make an argument that I wouldn't really agree with that it's Beneficial kind of. I don't, I don't know, but I
- [53:40]
Jon Favreau
think people, they could all paint a different letter of Release the files on their chests.
- [53:46]
Jon Lovett
They could all put a mask on.
- [53:47]
Jon Favreau
They could put a mask on. They could.
- [53:49]
Jon Lovett
Non Covid edition says ice. We're anti mask mask protest, not pro mass mass protest. Just to be clear, in this case,
- [53:59]
Jon Favreau
it's also hard whenever whatever party is facing the President giving a speech. It's like asymmetric warfare, Right? Like, the president's got to, he's got the microphone. The people in the chamber do not have the microphone. So they're all gonna sound. Oh, you're always gonna sound like you're yelling and you're interrupting. The president's gonna be able to just like, do what he wants there, right? So there's a little.
- [54:18]
Jon Lovett
The other side of it, though is this is a president disposed towards reacting in ways that rebound poorly for him. Right. Like he has the ability, like if you can interrupt him and get into some kind of a. If he gets mad all of a sudden, he's sort of, he's, you know, he'll break restraints and he'll, he'll start saying all the crazy shit like he's on it. He's going into this thing on a hair trigger anyway.
- [54:43]
Jon Favreau
Well, that's the. I mean, the other side of that is at, you know, 35, 39% approval. He's going to ruin the speech himself.
- [54:50]
Jon Lovett
Exactly. Yeah.
- [54:51]
Jon Favreau
Like, he could give that speech and not a single Democrat could be heard from for the rest of the night and people would still be like, that sucked.
- [54:59]
Eugene Daniels
Yeah.
- [54:59]
Tommy Vietor
If we were doing like, like a Super bowl party squares kind of betting thing. I think, like, the, the odds on thing to happen are that he denounces the Supreme Court justices in a way that maybe gets some like, scattered murmurs and booze. Right. And like, leads to some like, civility freak out. There is another version of it where he uses a speech to announce that, like, on my orders tonight we have commenced the bombing of Iran. And like, he goes for the big dramatic thing and I could see him doing that again for just cause. He, like, is a drama queen and like, likes attention, but it would be the least popular thing you could possibly do with the biggest megaphone.
- [55:33]
Jon Favreau
You don't think that's. You don't think that was a stop in the affordability tour?
- [55:36]
Jon Lovett
He's gonna, he's gonna. There's some line in there that's meant to assuage him. That's gonna be something about like the shameful decision on tariffs and it is showing shameful. Was very. You know, he's gonna start talking like he just. The, you know, the fence around him is fragile when he's up there.
- [55:55]
Jon Favreau
If I had to bet it would be just lots of stories of dead Americans killed by immigrants just hauling all that out again. Like they like to do a lot of stories. They're probably doing that today. Very sympathetic Americans who were somehow. I mean they're. I don't wanna say they're good at that, but they are at least adept at trying to find those stories. I'm sure Stephen Miller's all over that. Those are gonna be all the guests. They're gonna have random fucking people who are helped by Trump's policies. Cuz you can't really find them in the polls anywhere. So they'll bring him to the State of the Union.
- [56:23]
Jon Lovett
He's already done the longest State of the Union history. Right. Was that him?
- [56:27]
Jon Favreau
It sounds like he wants to beat
- [56:28]
Jon Lovett
it and I think he's gonna wanna beat it. So. It's gonna be a long night.
- [56:30]
Simone Sanders Townsend
Fuck.
- [56:32]
Jon Lovett
It's gonna be.
- [56:32]
Jon Favreau
But we'll be doing our. The crooked media official response.
- [56:35]
Jon Lovett
We will. Yeah, we'll be doing. We'll have a pod out about it after. And we're going to be on.
- [56:40]
Jon Favreau
We're going to be Jimmy Kimmel.
- [56:41]
Jon Lovett
Jimmy Kimmel.
- [56:41]
Jon Favreau
Three of us and Dan.
- [56:42]
Tommy Vietor
It's going to be late. It's going to be late night.
- [56:44]
Jon Favreau
Yeah. So anyway, when we come back, you'll hear Lovett's interview with Simone Sanders Townsend and Eugene Daniels about State of the Union and much more.
- [57:01]
Tommy Vietor
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- [57:26]
Jon Favreau
That's crazy.
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- [59:07]
Dan Pfeiffer
If you love positive America and want more of my political analysis, you should subscribe to my newsletter, the Message Box. I'm Dan Pfeiffer, former senior advisor to Barack Obama, and in Message box I break down what's actually happening in politics and what it's going to take to beat Donald Trump. Maga if you follow every poll and every twist and turn in the campaign message boxes for you, this isn't just hot takes. Every edition delivers clear analysis, behind the scenes insight and practical strategy you can actually use whether you're working on a race, organizing your community, or just trying to win the argument in your group chat. So if you're listening to this, hit pause, go to your browser and head to crooked.com yeswedan because I have a special offer for Crooked Media Fans. You'll get 20% off a message box for an entire year. So go to crooked.com yes. Yes we did.
- [59:56]
Jon Lovett
Joining me today is Ms. Now Simone Sanders Townsend and Eugene Daniels who are the hosts of the brand new podcast Clock It. Simone, Eugene, welcome back to the pod.
- [60:04]
Simone Sanders Townsend
Greetings.
- [60:06]
Eugene Daniels
Thanks for having us.
- [60:08]
Jon Lovett
So hi to you both. What are we clocking today well, there's a long list.
- [60:14]
Simone Sanders Townsend
You want to talk about the bafta,
- [60:17]
Eugene Daniels
you want to talk about the disrespect Tony Gonzalez.
- [60:20]
Simone Sanders Townsend
Okay, you just want to go with the State of the Union. I mean, we can go.
- [60:23]
Jon Lovett
I. Let's, let's not forget to touch on the baftas before we leave because I actually, you brought it up. And I am interested in the topic of the BAFTAs. I saw a stead Herndon, a journalist was saying it feels like a test on some kind of woke exam.
- [60:39]
Eugene Daniels
So.
- [60:40]
Jon Lovett
All right, but we got it. Let's focus on the news. State of the Union is tonight for our dear listeners. Trump says the speech will be very long. Are you excited about that? And what are you both going to be watching for? Why don't. Simone, why don't you kick it off?
- [60:55]
Simone Sanders Townsend
Well, I am, I guess I'm excited about the length because Eugene and I will be watching the State of the Union on YouTube, on msNow, Ms. Now's YouTube channel, along with everybody else who wants to tune in with us. So if it's long, the longer we'll sit there and watch and have our commentary. What I am watching for is actually how many times the president veers off script. Okay. Because obviously he is known to not stick to the teleprompter. His last address to Congress went, I think it was over about an hour and 39 minutes. That was the longest ever. Maybe he's trying to beat his own record. You know, he loves a fake trophy child. Um, so I'll be watching for how long he goes, and then the lies he tells about the economy, I don't have to caveat it, they're gonna be lies. He's gonna say everything is great. Meanwhile, it's like Hunger Games in the grocery store. I wanna know how far he's gonna go tonight.
- [61:44]
Jon Lovett
Eugene, what about you?
- [61:46]
Eugene Daniels
All of those things. But also I think the Supreme Court just struck down his tariffs and they're gonna be standing sitting right in front of him. Everybody but probably Alito, who stopped going years ago. So how does he engage with them? Right. Last time he shook their hands and thanked Justice Roberts, which was very awkward for everybody. How he's going to talk about the economy, like Simone says about the lies. But, but in his last joint address to Congress, what he said was basically telling people like, give us some time, it's gonna be painful. So like, is that the message you want going into midterms? Is that what they're going to go with? Cuz that's what they've been going with so far. But I think how he interacts and talks about the tariffs because it is the center point of how he thinks about the economy and his economic agenda. And so how he engages with them is really interesting to me. Yeah.
- [62:37]
Jon Lovett
It's worth noting that the reason Alito stopped going is because of a very mild comment about Citizens United by President Barack Obama.
- [62:45]
Eugene Daniels
Did you write that?
- [62:48]
Simone Sanders Townsend
Are you the reason Alito no longer attends the State of the Union?
- [62:51]
Jon Lovett
Man. But it's like, Alito, if you keep talking like this, I, Samuel Alito, will stop coming to your events. It's like you're threatening us with a good time here. But it is. I am interested in what Trump is gonna say directly to them. He's already, in the past week said he's. He's said more vicious things about the Supreme Court than any president in living memory. Now onto. There's another group of people that'll be there. They're called Democrats. They plan to. They plan to respond in a lot of different ways. Some are attending and what Hakeem Jeffries calls silent defiance. Democrats have also invited victims of Jeffrey Epstein to the State of the Union as guests. Other Democrats will be boycotting and attending competing events. If I were a member of Congress and I could skip because I'm a patriot, I probably would. But what do you think?
- [63:40]
Simone Sanders Townsend
Look, I have a piece up on Ms. Now, right now, about this very thing. I understand leadership's position. I want to note that the leadership of the Democratic Caucus, particularly in the House. Hakeem Jeffries has said, we're not going to Trump's house. Trump is coming to our house. And you don't let somebody run you off your block. Which is like, okay, I'm feeling the Brooklyn piece of it all. I get it. I get it. I'm not mad about that. And I don't think that leadership should be encouraging people to rush the podium. Right. That's not leadership's position. But I don't think that the leadership of the Democratic Caucus writ large, not just Jeffries, the entirety of the leadership and even the former leadership. Okay. Clock. That should tamp down the ability for protest or disruption or understanding the moment. I know that when Congressman Al Green stood up in the middle of Trump's last address to Congress, he was not.
- [64:33]
Eugene Daniels
Not.
- [64:33]
Simone Sanders Townsend
It was not taken, well, frankly, by Democrats in Washington. He was censured. There were members of his own Democratic caucus that voted to censure him. But, you know, who understood the moment and who appreciated what happened. The people outside of Washington, D.C. outside of the Beltway. That moment broke through and that moment proceeded many more inflection points of, of civil disobedience and people coming together in groups and protesting. And so I think, think, you know, never let a good crisis go to waste. Don't, don't tamp down a good disruption is what I think should be happening. And if I was a member of Congress, I would not be attending. I would be on one of the live streams. I would be coming to watch it with Eugene and I. On YouTube.
- [65:13]
Jon Favreau
Yeah.
- [65:13]
Jon Lovett
Oh, yeah, that's. Members of Congress just for live stream. They'll skip the State of the Union to do the live stream. I support that. I support that. Yeah. Eugene, I think part of the challenge here is it's always hard to figure out how to compete with the State of the Union. It's a classic dilemma. Long before Trump, you have the national stage, you have the, you have the pomp and circumstance. The responses are often, they often feel flat in comparison. Protests can, they can get attention. My problem, if I remember when, when Al Green stood up, it wasn't totally clear what he was protesting about. I think we had to find that out then. We had to find that out later. So there's a, there are challenges in trying to kind of take the microphone from Trump. But, but what do you make of the decision to bring people connected to, affected by Jeffrey Epstein to the State of the Union?
- [66:04]
Eugene Daniels
I think that's a great move.
- [66:06]
Jon Favreau
Right.
- [66:06]
Eugene Daniels
I think it is something substantive that they have. Democrats have been fighting for, making sure that there is a real release of the Epstein file, something that Republicans used to be leading on. They don't anymore. Shocker. But it is also part of when you're talking about the pompous circumstance of the State of the Union and what do you do to counter that? This is one of those things. Right. Because we're going to be. We as journalists are going to be trying to interview those women before. We're definitely going to interview them after. Now the White House and the administration have to figure out, Donald Trump have to figure out how do we, or if, if at all engage with these women. Do we talk about Epstein? Do we say anything about the women in there? He's probably not, you guys, just to be very clear, it's very unlike.
- [66:52]
Simone Sanders Townsend
He's going to say he's been exonerated.
- [66:54]
Eugene Daniels
Correct. He's up and. He's up and through them files all over the place. He's probably not going to say anything, but it helps to create a dilemma. And I think when you are on the outside looking in, as Democrats are when it comes to power in D.C. trying to force people to make a move and getting them off their game is very interesting. Like, you know, Donald Trump watches a lot of tv, so it's very possible he has seen, you know, Jess Michaels, for example, before. So locking eyes with her. What does that do? It could create something. And if it doesn't, there's a substance, substantive aspect of this where the DOJ has been holding back files. They redacted more than members of Congress are comfortable with. And so it gives them a lot to talk about. I will add just to folks not going. I was talking with someone this weekend and they said that what they should do is be there and be silent. I don't know if that's helpful, but all the Democrats be there and be silent and then talk about it after. Because you could appear looking disjointed, doing all these different things. And this is one of the things that Hakeem draftees was so worried about because now you have this, this, you know, this. I think it was like the we the People State of the Union rally that's happening with Chris Van Hollen and et al. And then you have the people that are gonna go there, the people that are just gonna skip completely. So it's kind of all over the place. So it could appear to the American people as disjointed when they want a Democratic Party that feels more unified.
- [68:14]
Simone Sanders Townsend
Can I just say one other point about that? Because in talking to some folks in leadership, people out of leadership, and some strategists, one of the things that they have all said is that, look, we are on offense here. Republicans are our own defense. And so we don't want to do anything that will potentially knock us off our own game. And, and we want. They said Donald Trump is going to lie and we want people to hear the lies, not talk about something else that could be a distraction. And, and I just think that, that, like, the American people are smart, we can. Donald Trump lies every day, sitting in the chamber silently while he lies about the economy and then hoping to get a cable news hit afterwards or going live on your Instagram. I just, I don't think that meets the moment now. I think that some people going and some people not. It will seem disparate. I will also note there's a weather issue here in the northeastern part of the United States, the DMV area. So some people might just not be there because the flight won't make it child.
- [69:09]
Jon Lovett
And has anyone Let the District of Columbia know about the technology of snowplows? Or is that something that is still, are still.
- [69:16]
Eugene Daniels
Look, no, we're still trying to figure that one out. We're waiting until we're a state to be able to do that.
- [69:20]
Simone Sanders Townsend
Has, has seen the remnants of the last situation. And, you know, my street was quite clear today. So kudos.
- [69:27]
Jon Lovett
Axios reported today that this hidden autopsy report that the DNC has done that. One of the lessons, one of the findings is that Gaza and the administration's position on Israel and Gaza costs Kamala Harris votes in 2024. What did you make of that news and why is this?
- [69:55]
Simone Sanders Townsend
Well, welcome, welcome, welcome. Did they need a freaking autopsy? Welcome.
- [70:00]
Jon Lovett
Is it better to get the information? Why don't they just release the fucking report?
- [70:04]
Eugene Daniels
It's silly. This part is. This part is very silly.
- [70:07]
Simone Sanders Townsend
Do y' all want the tea?
- [70:07]
Jon Lovett
Yeah, sure.
- [70:08]
Eugene Daniels
Yes, they do.
- [70:10]
Simone Sanders Townsend
The T is the report is not being released, allegedly, according to people familiar that I have talked to. And I wanna caveat with this. I have not seen the report myself, but I have heard about it. It's not being released because they believe that it will be a distraction. And it's a distraction that is not wanted by folks on the House side, the Senate side, Democrats writ large across the country in terms of like, the, the Alphabet committees, as I like to say, the dccc, the dnc, the dscc, they don't want that out before the midterms. I think that we will see the autopsy, but we'll see the autopsy in, like, December of 2026. But I, I, Because I think more eyes have started to get on it. That's how some of these things are, are leaking out.
- [70:51]
Tommy Vietor
Out.
- [70:51]
Simone Sanders Townsend
One could argue you should have just ripped a band aid off this summer and we, or last summer, like last fall, frankly. And we wouldn't even be talking about it later, but that's how the ball balances. I don't necessarily agree, but I'm just telling you, that's the tea.
- [71:04]
Jon Lovett
It's still February of 2026, still eight months until the midterm elections. I, I just find it hard to believe that what's inside of this document is so controversial that it'll be felt in an election eight months from now, especially when we're getting the outcome of it, we're getting the information.
- [71:21]
Simone Sanders Townsend
I mean, the same reason why Democrats are like Hakeem Jeffries is like, either stay home or go and sit silently is the same reason why they're not releasing this autopsy. Democrats feel like they're on offense. And they do not want unforced errors. And they feel like releasing this will be an unforced error.
- [71:35]
Eugene Daniels
I think not releasing it is an unforced error. And I think we probably all agree, because you have one, they promised to release it. So that's what's most important, is that you, at one, when you were running, right. Ken Martin, who's now the chair of the dnc, said he was gonna release it. Of course he would release it. Release it. Then they made a different decision. So that just reiterates to voters within the Democratic Party that people who are elected, whether they are actually in office or whether that one of these Alphabet committees, they don't follow through with what they say they're going to do when they actually get the job. So that is one concern. Two is that we are going to find out what's in here, right? Like, Holly Otterbein and Axios is not the only reporter sniffing around. We all are. And so she found this one. Someone else will find another thing. We'll find out race. We'll find out gender. We'll find out, you know, what was the ground game? What was the digital game like? All of it is going to come out. And so the ripping off the band aid should have happened because at this point, it's just gonna be like, drip, drip, drip, drip. And then in October, maybe something huge happens. And now you're really embarrassed before voters go and vote in November. And so I think at the end of the day, the party may have made a misstep here. And there are a lot of people, especially the younger folks that work within the party apparatus, who are frustrated with this that I've talked to, who are like, we should have just released it. We would have forgotten about it. Of course, all the things that Donald Trump is doing every day, like, if we release it, and then we would have bombed Iran, and then everybody would have moved on. Right? Like, it's like that. That is the. That. That is how you have to think nowadays. And I don't know why. I know they don't. They want to be on offense. But, you know, I played college sports. I know that's confusing for people, but I played college football. You have to play offense and defense. You have to do both to win the game.
- [73:17]
Jon Lovett
Did you have a heated rivalry?
- [73:20]
Eugene Daniels
I wish. I really wish. I really wish. That's, like, my only regret because there were a couple moments where I feel like I could have, but I was too scared. Yeah. My biggest regret.
- [73:31]
Jon Lovett
Yeah.
- [73:31]
Eugene Daniels
The.
- [73:32]
Jon Lovett
On the autopsy, it's It's. It like, first of all, I want to know what we got for buying that sphere. And then the other part of it is what we get for the sphere.
- [73:40]
Simone Sanders Townsend
It's a waste of money. But then, I'm sorry, but you can't be. You can't. You can't have, as people would say during that time, more money than God, because that's what people in the campaign would say they had and advertise and you're advertising on the spear. But organizers in Phoenix and Nevada, specifically Las Vegas, can't get money to do their GOTV outreach efforts. There's a disconnect. And I just think. I agree with y'. All. Ripped a band aid off. Da da da da. I mean, to be very clear, the voters in the streets that are gonna decide who the next Democratic nominee is, they. They actually don't necessarily care much about the autopsy. I. I think we care about the autopsy, understandably so, for various reasons. And we're not gonna stop caring about the autopsy. So release the tapes.
- [74:22]
Jon Lovett
Yeah. I would say, like, you know, release the Martin files, but the. Sorry, I don't know if that's.
- [74:29]
Simone Sanders Townsend
Now, can I just say, I have heard that it is not Kim Martin himself that is independently saying, I'm not releasing it. There are lots of people that don't wanna release. But Kim Martin, I mean, he's the DNC chair, so he's the face of it. But.
- [74:41]
Eugene Daniels
But correct.
- [74:42]
Jon Lovett
I understand why what I just said is terribly unfair in a variety of ways. But the other. It's also like it is being released. We're going to get the information. Just. You're not releasing it on your terms. You're putting it in the hands of feckless reporters. Sort of, you know, people like Eugene. People like Eugene trying to get their. Their hands on it.
- [74:59]
Simone Sanders Townsend
Who.
- [74:59]
Eugene Daniels
Only grimy little.
- [75:00]
Jon Lovett
They don't give a fuck what happens. They want the scoop.
- [75:05]
Eugene Daniels
Yeah. Release the information to the people.
- [75:07]
Simone Sanders Townsend
This just feels so. So, so nasty. Like, what is this? It is very spinning tapes. I love how we made them tapes. They are.
- [75:18]
Eugene Daniels
It is the papers. They are papers.
- [75:21]
Jon Lovett
Yes.
- [75:21]
Eugene Daniels
It's a PDF.
- [75:22]
Jon Lovett
So. Gavin Newsome. I want to cover him.
- [75:26]
Simone Sanders Townsend
Eugene has thoughts.
- [75:27]
Eugene Daniels
I do have thoughts. He.
- [75:29]
Jon Lovett
He had these comments over the weekend about his son not wanting him to run for president, but obviously he was. He's running. He's sort of the front runner. To be the front runner right now. He's been trying to kind of. I think people have been impressed by his kind of ability to kind of break through and get attention and going after Trump. Eugene, what do you think?
- [75:49]
Eugene Daniels
No, I think that's right. I think people are like, especially the online people. And this is where you have to live in. Like Twitter is not real life, but like the folks online who are watching him, they're excited about seeing someone fight back, right? That's what Democratic voters want. They want someone who's caught fighting. And that's something he's done. He's done it in court, he's done it on tv, he's done it in this book, he's on this tour now. But I also think that when you're a politician, you gotta be careful about how you're talking about things, right? He was up there in Atlanta talking to the mayor and he's doing his interview about his book and he's trying to explain that he's just one of the folks, right? But what he's saying, what he ends up saying, yeah, I'm just like you, Like, I get what he's saying and I think a lot of people understand what he's saying. But you're trying to run for president, like being like, I have a 960sat, I can't read just like you. And it's like, wait a damn second, sir, we can read, right? So it's like you have. It's about being careful.
- [76:47]
Simone Sanders Townsend
It's important that he said it before. He said it in that, in the interview he did with Charlie Kirk on his podcast, but in that room that he was in with Andre Dickens, the mayor of Atlanta, okay? In that black room he was in. It didn't land well. Okay? Even the mayor, if you just watch the clip, the mayor didn't laugh at first. He was kind of like, like it didn't land well. And I just think it's those kind of things that we gonna see a lot more of from a lot of different people. Because this is gonna be 2020 on steroids. Everybody and their mama wants to be the Democratic nominee.
- [77:20]
Jon Lovett
There's a. There's sort of a like. And the response has been blown up by kind of right wing Republicans and right wing accounts. And I don't know how to. There needs to be some sort of a name for it, which is Republicans doing the kind of doing their impression, they're kind of trolley impression of circa 2020 Democrats to try to kind of like troll Democrats because they're the ones that really care about racism. And then, and then I saw, I also saw Tim Scott post it in this sort of like, sort of like, how dare you kind of away when,
- [77:58]
Eugene Daniels
like, he just had two weeks ago to say the monkey video was the most racist thing he's seen out of the White House, which means he's seen other racist things out of the White House.
- [78:07]
Simone Sanders Townsend
So I don't know the first racist. This is the only racist. This is the most racist thing yet.
- [78:12]
Eugene Daniels
Okay, so let's be very clear. Let's. Sir, like, this does not touch what you've seen come out of the White House.
- [78:18]
Simone Sanders Townsend
But they're going after him because they do. See, I mean, just think about it. I just wanna. I mean, you work for Obama. Do I even need to tell you this? Like, at this time, prior to the 2008 election, election, people didn't think it was Barack Obama. They thought it was Secretary Clinton. They were like, she's the front runner. Da, da, da. There were other people that maybe also wanted to be president. Joe Biden was about to be on his second run for president yet again. Like, maybe that was his third. I can't recall. So he. There were lots of people, but no one would have said at this point in time prior to the 2008 election that Barack Obama was definitely gonna be the Democratic nominee, that he was the front runner. And so they're attacking who they, quote, unquote, Unquote think is the front runner. But I will just tell people the. The things that are going to make a difference or who actually shakes out to the top in this Democratic primary when it finally gets underway. And to be clear, we're in the early. Early as. As love is said, we're in the early days. But post midterms, baby, we are kicking off. It's going to be the map. What is the map? How does the map shake out for the primary? Because the map is going to tell a lot. Okay? The map can take some people out or it can, boy, you some people till the end. End. And it's going to be the. The reliable black voters choose the Democratic nominee in this party. But you know what? Black voters do not make their. Do not make their decision in a vacuum. They want to know what some of the white voters are going to do. They want to know what some of the Latino voters are going to do. They might say, damn these white voters, these Latino voters. I. This is what the black voters want. The map, though, helps color that. The primaries help color that. How people stand up in the bright lights, how they fail on the debate stage. Um, let's be clear. Vice President Kamala Harris, then Senator Harris, she did very well on the Senate confirmations. In the judiciary hearings, when she got on the debate stage, you know, it was a little bit of a different story in that 2020 primary. So the things that we see out here in the wild don't always translate when the primary gets underway. So watch this space. As Rachel Mad I was said, what you.
- [80:11]
Jon Lovett
What do you think of bi there. There's a story in Axios that. That South Carolina is enlisting Joe Biden to try to keep South Carolina early in the process. I'm not sure what that even means. Like, I understand why I. You sure?
- [80:25]
Simone Sanders Townsend
Because I understand why they would ask him, because, you know, he has no current dog in the fight. He just. He loves South Carolina. South Carolina kept him afloat. I mean, the map mattered for him. So I understand why. I believe and know for sure he is not the only person that they have enlisted. I don't think South Carolina is losing its place in the. In the. In the top first five contests, I would say, but I highly doubt that they'll end up being first.
- [80:49]
Eugene Daniels
I will say this. I think the idea Joe Biden is a good choice to help push South Carolina across the finish line. I get having that idea.
- [80:59]
Simone Sanders Townsend
Y' all think haters.
- [81:00]
Eugene Daniels
I think the current. No, I just think, like, the current setup of the Democratic Party is like, that's not going to. That's not gonna be the. That's not gonna be the push to keep South Carolina. I think that obviously, And I imagine Mr. Clyburn is one of those folks that is at the top of that list who actually does have some still pull and lots of respect within the den and the Democratic Party apparatus, most importantly, to get that done. I think that people are still raw about, to say the least, about Simone's former boss.
- [81:33]
Simone Sanders Townsend
Which one?
- [81:34]
Eugene Daniels
Yeah, well, the first one. The old white man.
- [81:37]
Simone Sanders Townsend
Which one?
- [81:38]
Eugene Daniels
Sorry. The second old white man.
- [81:42]
Simone Sanders Townsend
Thank you.
- [81:43]
Eugene Daniels
To be clear. And so I think. I think the folks want. They desperately want that pool to still be there that Joe Biden had. I think he doesn't have. There's still a lot of respect within the party, but I think, like, give it a. Give it some time, because I don't want to.
- [81:58]
Simone Sanders Townsend
I will just say this. As a former DNC member, I think the respect within the actual party apparatus is what matters. It is the people within the party apparatus that are gonna make the decision about the map. Given the recent events of the death of Reverend Jesse Jackson, the changes that Reverend Jackson pushed forward for, to make sure that black people had viable chances, frankly, within the. The. Within the party, to even Become the nominee. Those kind of changes, the proportional representation, the map, those came out of 1988. Jesse Jackson, child. So if you think black people are about to let their cachet slip away within the Democratic Party apparatus, you got another thing coming. DEI might be out, but out everywhere else at Target. DI might be out at Target Child. But what black and Latino and women and Aapi, Pacific Islander and everybody that's not a straight white man. Want and need. That is very much so in inside the Democratic Party apparatus.
- [82:53]
Jon Lovett
Sometimes I do think, though, that I agree how early things come have been important. But I remember from 2008 that once we got into the primary, it was less about the sequence and more about the kind of the makeup of the scene, state's electorate. Like there was. The momentum was less important than the fundamental qualities of what was happening in the state because we were bouncing back and forth. You know, Hillary was winning in the places she was expected to win, and that was happening deep into the process.
- [83:19]
Simone Sanders Townsend
To be clear, had Barack Obama not done well in Iowa, we would not be around. So the demographics of the state did, in fact matter. No, no sequencing of the states matter.
- [83:28]
Jon Lovett
I think both really are important. But then with Joe Biden, right, He, he, you know, people are telling him to drop out, but he's saying, wait for South Carolina. And he was right about that.
- [83:36]
Eugene Daniels
So.
- [83:36]
Jon Lovett
So it was, you know, I think it's like a. It's a. Absolutely, absolutely, absolutely, absolutely. And I was gonna. I was gonna say doesn't have a dog in the fight because the Christine Ohm killed that dog. But. So. Oh, doesn't even make sense. I want to, I want to land on the battle. I do want to ask about what's happening in Texas. Just last, last sort of serious question, which is we have this battle between Jasmine Crockett and James Talarika, who, you know, it seems to be about what it means to be electable in 2026 in Texas. And I'm curious what you make of the back and forth between the campaigns.
- [84:15]
Eugene Daniels
The fight is less ideological in the Democratic Party now, and it is about, do you fight and how you fight. And I think, like, those two people show you kind of the different ways in which folks are going to be doing that throughout the year as we head through the primary season. I think that when certain people say electability, it is a dog whistle. And it's very clear what they mean. Right? Like, we all know what that actually means. We know what it meant when people said that about Barack Obama. We know what it means when they said about Kamala Harris, we know what it means when they say it about Jasmine Crockett. But the in Texas, and it's very unclear how this is gonna shake out. But if you look at both of them were in Lubbock, Texas, I think over the weekend. And if you look at their crowds, the crowds are vastly different in the same city. And you have her crowd which is super diverse. Younger people, older people, lots of black and brown people. He is not so much now. Texas is a very diverse state. I don't know if that bodes well for him. Who knows? We'll see. But I do not think the Stephen Colbert of it all is going to change a lot of voters minds. I don't think that there are a lot of Texas voters who are like, oh, he didn't get to do his interview, didn't get to air on Stephen Colbert, so then I gotta vote for him. Like, I don't think that's how voters are thinking. And as a person who graduated high school in Texas, I don't think. And I have a Texas tattoo. It's very crazy.
- [85:46]
Simone Sanders Townsend
It's really insane.
- [85:47]
Eugene Daniels
It is shocking.
- [85:48]
Simone Sanders Townsend
We don't want to ask a follow up question about that.
- [85:50]
Eugene Daniels
No, don't do that.
- [85:52]
Jon Lovett
Look, everything's bigger in Texas. Texas, they say it's true.
- [85:56]
Simone Sanders Townsend
I do not want to address that comment. What I will say, what I will say is this. I think that at the end of the. I, I agree with what Eugene said about electability. Like basically, are they electable in Texas? We're asking will white people vote for Jasmine Crockett? Right, right. Well, well, well. Will black voters vote for James Palo? But the question is will black, will white people vote for Jasmine Crockett? Will Latinos vote for Jasmine Crockett? Giving some of the things that she has in a general election, giving some of the things she has said about Latino Hispanic voters literally in print and on national television. It's insane. That being said, the way you win a primary is still a ground game. Early vote in Texas is happening right now. If you talk to folks within the Texas Democratic Party, they will tell you they are encouraged by the numbers that they're seeing. Early vote is by Democrats is outpacing Republicans. There is energy in this race. We don't know who those voters are though. And I think that the people that don't like the electability conversation that feel like it's a. They're trying to hang an album, they're trying to put a. I don't want to use that term, but they're trying to weigh Jasmine Crockett down and try to take her out of the race with the electability conversation. Maybe who might not have really felt strongly about her initially, but like, feel strongly about the fact they trying to take her out. So, like, now we're going to vote for her. Maybe there are enough of those voters. But I just think the kind of campaign that has been run, she didn't run a traditional campaign. So if she is able to eke out in this Democratic primary primary, it won't be because she ran a stellar campaign. I want to be really clear. It'll be because I believe that she had great name id, she had a good message, and she was the kind of fighter that Democrats in Texas want to go into their general election. Not because the ground game is just so great. And that's. That's okay to say because it's the truth.
- [87:39]
Jon Lovett
And it's also, I think we're saying that the Tal Rico has not been, I think, attacking Jasmine Crockett on the stump. That he has been saying no, he's been sort of attacking, I think above board. Right. You agree with that?
- [87:52]
Simone Sanders Townsend
I think he's been overly above board, yes.
- [87:55]
Eugene Daniels
Agree. Agree.
- [87:56]
Simone Sanders Townsend
Operative in me is like, I'm not saying you got to attack her. And I. And I wouldn't have advised that of him, but I mean, he has been practically out there saying, and to be clear, if she wins, I'm going to support her. Even at his fundraisers. He's like, and I think you all should too. We. I'm g. Can't say that either one. Hold up, do you want to win or not? Like, hold it. Just shut up. And when they ask you on a debate stage about the racism, then you defend her. But Jesus, win the race. But you know, I think this overly nice. These niceties. The Democrats are still scarred from like their. You know, Democrats don't actually like infighting unless it's a presidential primary situation. But Democratic voters, they really don't like that. Like, they really just. They don't want people attacking people. They just want you to talk about the issues until they don't.
- [88:36]
Jon Lovett
So, but that's part of this is
- [88:37]
Simone Sanders Townsend
the moderates done the right situation.
- [88:39]
Jon Lovett
But that's to get at the moderates, you would need the, like, kind of less partisans that you would need that the argument would be be Crockett will have a tougher time with Right. Like that. That would be why he's sort of running it in this sort of positive way.
- [88:50]
Simone Sanders Townsend
I. I think that. But I Also think it's what he believes to be very clear. And I think. And I think it's what he thinks it will get him a. Is what he thinks will work for him. I think if you. I've asked Jasmine Crocker, we had her on our show, like, two weeks ago, and I asked her straight up, like, you know, do you think white people will vote for you, essentially? And Michael Steele asked as well. And she said that she has Republicans in her phone right now who have told her that if she wins, they will support her. So this idea that she can't win, she Republicans won't vote for her isn't right. Also, a tone shift for Jasmine Crockett, who started her election talking about, we don't need the reds, we just need all the blues. And I think as. As my colleague Michael Steele would say, the former RNC chairman, which is crazy, because now Democrats are like, we need Michael to run the party. I'm like, michael is the reason we are here. Y' all just has rebranded.
- [89:35]
Eugene Daniels
Well, pay attention.
- [89:37]
Simone Sanders Townsend
Y' all need to clock that. Okay? Y' all need to read that bio. He said, you know what campaigns reveal. Reveal the. They reveal. Candidates go on a journey in a campaign. And what he said when he heard those comments from Congresswoman Crockett, he said, she has obviously been on a journey in this campaign and has arrived to the place where she needs to be to try to win.
- [89:56]
Jon Lovett
Well, we have to. I promise people the baftas, but I. I don't.
- [90:03]
Eugene Daniels
We're gonna talk about the baftas on our.
- [90:05]
Jon Lovett
You'll talk it on your show. It's insane.
- [90:07]
Eugene Daniels
We're talking about it on ours. This is insane. I want to redo a Black History Month. Too much. It's too much.
- [90:13]
Simone Sanders Townsend
Every Black History Month. They trying us, Eugene. Every Black History Month.
- [90:15]
Eugene Daniels
And it's just 28 damn days. Can we just get 28 days?
- [90:18]
Simone Sanders Townsend
He did not go to the mat to get Negro History Week to turn into Black History Month for us to talk about this. Disrespecting racism during Black History Month. Not today.
- [90:29]
Eugene Daniels
It's too bad.
- [90:30]
Jon Lovett
Eugene Daniels, Simone Sanders Townsend. What a joy. New podcast, Clockette. They were doing a live stream during the State of the Union. You know, everybody join us. Join them.
- [90:47]
Jon Favreau
That's our show for today. Thanks to Simone and Eugene for coming on. We'll be back on your feed tomorrow morning with a bonus episode reacting to the State of the Union. Everybody hang in there. If you want to listen to Pod Save America ad free and get access to exclusive podcasts, go to Cross Crooked.com friends to subscribe on Supercast, Substack, YouTube or Apple Podcasts. Also, please consider leaving us a review that helps boost this episode and everything we do here at Crooked. Pod Save America is a Crooked Media production. Our producer is Saul Rubin. Our associate producer is Farah Safari. Austin Fisher is our Senior producer. Reed Churlin is our Executive editor. Adrian Hill is our head of news and politics. The show is mixed and edited by Andrew Chadwick. George Jordan Kanter is our Sound engineer with audio support from Kyle Seglin and Charlotte Landis. Matt de Groat is our Head of production. Naomi Sengel is our Executive assistant. Thanks to our digital team, Elijah Cohn, Hayley Jones, Ben Hefcoat, Mia Kelman, Kirill Pelaviev, David Toles and Ryan Young. Our production staff is proudly unionized with the Writers Guild of America eas.
- [91:57]
Tommy Vietor
If you guys like Pod Save America, please consider subscribing to our Friends at the Pod program. So Friends of the Pod get lots of stuff. You get more Pod Save America. That includes our new show which is called Pod Save America. Only Friends.
- [92:08]
Jon Favreau
It's where Dan gets naked, where Dan
- [92:09]
Tommy Vietor
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- [92:35]
Jon Favreau
Yeah Clothes Dan is very busy.
- [92:36]
Tommy Vietor
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- [92:55]
Simone Sanders Townsend
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Jon Lovett
VRBO care is here 24.
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Simone Sanders Townsend
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- [93:28]
Jon Lovett
We're here to help things run smoothly,
- [93:31]
Simone Sanders Townsend
because a great trip starts with the right support. And, hey, a good playlist doesn't hurt either.