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Dan Pfeiffer (2:13)

Welcome to Pod Save America. I'm Dan Pfeiffer.

Alex Wagner (2:15)

And I'm Alex Wagner.

Dan Pfeiffer (2:16)

Jon is off today. Alex, thank you for filling in for him on what is going to be a very big show.

Alex Wagner (2:21)

Oh, huge. I mean, listen, I don't, I can't, I, I can't make it unless it's a big show. You know what I'm saying?

Dan Pfeiffer (2:26)

Yes, that's right. You have, you have in your deal that it has to be a certain level of contractual before you appear on this podcast.

Alex Wagner (2:31)

Yeah. A personal emergency. I'm in. If this is just your team.

Dan Pfeiffer (2:35)

Good.

Alex Wagner (2:36)

Because, well, we're always in an emergency, so.

Dan Pfeiffer (2:38)

Yes, well, we're in several emergencies today, so. As we will see on today's show, Pete Hegseth lectures America's top military leaders about weight loss, physical fitness, and grooming. Donald Trump tries to extort universities in becoming more maga. And Trump loses two huge court cases. But first it loomed, then it barreled. And shortly after midnight on Wednesday, the government shut down. The earliest it could reopen is Friday, when the Senate is scheduled to vote after members return from the Yom Kippur holiday. But that vote is expected to fail. Democrats have held the line on their demand that ACA subsidies, which are set to expire at the end of the year, be extended, while Republicans have maintained, as Speaker Johnson said at a news conference, that they have, quote, literally nothing to negotiate. With no bipartisan agreement in sight, Senate Majority Leader John Thune is now attempting to peel off a handful of Democratic senators. But President Trump doesn't seem too anxious to. To reopen the government anytime soon. He and Republicans seem to be relishing the opportunity to inflict as much pain on as many people as possible. Alex, we are 40 or so hours into the shutdown as we record. How are you feeling?

Alex Wagner (3:42)

I mean, I think we live in the upside down, Dan, when Republicans are trying to, like, care about, pretend that they care about funding the government and the appropriations process, when they've literally bent the knee and, like, done a blood oath to the man who is completely vaulted over the legislative process and wants to do nothing but strip the government down to its studs. So, yeah, I mean, it feels weird, right? It's a complete inversion of the party's normal stances, and that is odd. I am heartened to some degree, and we'll talk more about this by the fact that Democrats are hanging together and for the most part that they've done something differently, because I think these abnormal times call for unusual measures. I think the strategy itself is pretty complicated. And I worry that the American public, until Yellowstone closes down. We have a history as a country of not caring probably enough about federal bureaucracy and what happens to federal workers. And they exist in a kind of liminal space, I think, as far as the American imagination. But I think it's good that all the stories about this shutdown begin with an explanation about what Republicans are trying to do to American health care and that we are having at least the beginnings of a conversation about health care costs and what the Big Beautiful Bill act has done and the sort of priorities of the Republican Party as it concerns the welfare of the most vulnerable in our society. So that part seems good. But I'd like to see a lot. I mean, I'd like to see a lot more coordination and creativity and ambition as far as, you know, where the Democrats are at, at least from a messaging perspective.

Dan Pfeiffer (5:34)

Yeah, we'll get to the message in a second. You're right. There is this is very awkward dynamic, which is the Republicans are the ones who've initiated every other shutdown in recent American history and generally want to see the government and they want to, in their own parlance, drown the government in a bathtub. And they. And so they are. They're so insincere and awkward in arguing for the government to be reopened. Like, that doesn't. Like, it does not compute for them. And the Democrats have always been the ones who have argued that the government is important and should stay open. And we can have this long epistemological argument about who's really at fault here, but Democrats are the ones who are demanding something in this process, but also the ones who seem to care the most about the federal workers who are furloughed or, or the people who are impacted by the projects or the initiatives that are being temporarily shut down due to the shutdown. So everyone is. You're right. It's like, that's a good way of putting it. We're sort of in the upside down, where no one really kind of knows they're playing the opposite role, and that's uncomfortable for them. And so, you know, it's. We are, as I said, We're 40 hours into this. What is probably most notable to me is that there really is no conversation about how to solve the problem. Republicans have no interest in having that conversation. They're not willing to compromise. Compromise equals surrender. And so there is no, like, gang of 12 off meeting somewhere or anything else. It's just we are. Everyone's just staring at each other. Maybe that'll change after the weekend. But right now we're just sort of like, stuck in this place, and it Feels like we could be here for a while.

Alex Wagner (7:02)

Well, yeah, I mean, and there's the fundamental reality that like in the interim, Republicans under the leadership of both Trump and Russell Vote at OMB are just doing the thing they've always wanted to do. It's like playing chicken with someone who very badly wants to drive a car off a cliff, who's like lifelong dream has been like Thelma and Louise style, let's gun the engine and go. And you finally been given an opportunity to do that and they're not trying to stop, you know, so that's a sort of, that's a structural problem in any strategy in this situation.

Dan Pfeiffer (7:34)

Yeah, it's been the structural problem in every shutdown where everyone, where the positions are reversed, which is we actually are responsible. We actually care what happens to people. And if they don't, it's very hard. You can't negotiate with people like that. And then this time they're theoretically the ones who serve the government and they can't pretend to actually care. Like as we're watching this, right. Trump and Republicans are trying very hard to project confidence. They are. It's all bluster and swagger from the Trump White House on down. The press, you know, seems to believe maybe in some Democrats seem to believe Republicans have the upper hand politically in this. Do you agree with.

Alex Wagner (8:11)

I mean, I don't think it's a great sign that like within 24 hours they've peeled off three Democratic senators. Right. I think it's, you know, I think the fact that Trump has ordered federal agencies to have sort of banners on their website saying this agency is not able to operate at full tilt because of a Democrat led shutdown. You know, he is doing things that are clear violations of the Hatch Act. But like whatever, the Hatch act went the way of the dodo bird some eight years ago.

Dan Pfeiffer (8:40)

Well, they fired the people who enforced the Hatch Act.

Alex Wagner (8:42)

Exactly.

Dan Pfeiffer (8:42)

So that's no longer an issue.

Alex Wagner (8:44)

But I mean, the lawlessness and the sort of wanton, the lawlessness and the rules not applying to them are really being, you know, it ratchets up to like a degree that we haven't seen before in typical fights. Right. Like they will weaponize every part of the federal bureaucracy to have a partisan fight with Democrats. They have a president who's utterly reckless and they have a real sociopath who's like picking and choosing which blue states to fuck over hardest, given an opportunity to shrink the federal workforce in a period of like government shutdown. So, you know, I do think they have some real leverage here. Having said that, I mean, Dan, the polling is good for Democrats on the issue of healthcare for right now. And I think again I go back to what I said at the beginning. I think it's good that that's what the stories have to lead with. This is why Democrats are doing this because this is the reality for many people, if not the majority of Americans who are on either the exchanges or whose insurance premiums are going to rise, which is like everybody who's in, in a pool that's affected by fewer healthy people being in the pool, so is a lot of the country. So, you know, I think they, at least for the moment, have a hand to play. And on an issue that really matters.

Dan Pfeiffer (10:03)

I mean they obviously have the substantive upper hand here, right? They're the ones who get to decide what goes on the websites. They can change the White House comment line to be Caroline Levitt's voice attacking Democrats as they have done. They can make threats like a bunch of two bit mafiosos about how they're going to hurt these people or hurt that people. You know, it's like really nice government you have there. Too bad you shut it down now we can destroy it. Like all of they can do all of that stuff. But I do think Republicans think they can only win and Democrats think they can't win, sort of in our mentality and you can see it in the body language of Democrats in this. A lot of people, I mean there are exceptions, but a lot of the people are out there speaking. It feels like they were either dragged into this or they're just waiting around until the bottom falls out and we lose. And I think the Democrats have a much stronger hand here than we think. One, we're doing this over an incredibly popular issue. I mean, one, we have an advantage on healthcare. It's the one issue we have an advantage on these days. But on the specific question of extending the Obamacare tax credits or the Kaiser Family foundation poll from earlier this summer would show that huge majorities of people wanted them extended. Large majorities, Republicans and a narrow majority of self identified MAGA Republicans think they should be extended. There's a Washington Post poll out this morning which shows that on the question of who's responsible for this shutdown, 17% more people think it's Trump and the Republicans than Democrats. And that's consistent with a bunch of polls we saw before. It could change now that we're in it. But I think every Democrat seems to think that we are in a messaging fight or political fight against The Donald Trump that won the popular vote in all seven battleground states in 2024. That is not the case. Donald Trump's poll numbers today are not good. All the people he made grounds with, if you look at the New York Times Sienna poll from this past weekend, or, sorry, we look at the New York Times Sienna poll from earlier this week, have abandoned him. He is. His games with young people, gone. His game with Latinos, gone. His games with non white, non college educated voters, gone. And so Donald Trump's approval rating right now at this exact moment in time is almost exactly what it was the week before the 2018 elections when Democrats picked up 40 seats. If we were in a shutdown fight with that Donald Trump In October of 2018, we would have thought we would kick his ass. And so we do have to adjust our mentality. There's a learned helplessness in how Democrats are approaching this. Some Democrats, I think, are approaching this to think, we can't beat this guy, we can't win, we're too inept, we're too insecure in our position. And I think we actually can, but we have to have the winning mentality to do it. Does that make you feel any better?

Alex Wagner (12:37)

Yeah, totally. Can you just put that on my voicemail so I can play it like.

Dan Pfeiffer (12:41)

Tomorrow, like Caroline Levitt, we will add.

Alex Wagner (12:43)

It to the crooked voice, Dan Pfeiffer. That's what we need. But also it gets at kind of beliefs that the American public hold about each party. And I think that Democrats have an advantage there. Right. Like it is sort of a truism in American politics that Democrats care more about people. Sometimes that comes back to bite them in the ass or seen as caring about too many people or too, too small a group of people in too big a, too big a fashion, or carrying over being strategic with the nation's finances or whatever it is. I'm not saying any of that's necessarily true, but the impression widely and deeply held, is that Democrats care more about the health and welfare of the American public. And they are fighting a battle on that territory. And I think that's how you win. Right. Like, you don't, you don't have to reinvent the wheel here. People understand this to be something that's a priority for the party and it sort of, it's a natural extension of party priorities for them to be fighting this fight. They don't have to pretend to be anything that they aren't. And so they should take an advantage of that.

Dan Pfeiffer (13:41)

As you mentioned, three Democrats have been peeled off Catherine Cortez Mesto, John Fetterman and Angus King in independent caucus of Democrats all voted to open the government the last time there was a vote. Are you worried that Democrats could fold before too long, or do you think Schumer can keep them in line?

Alex Wagner (13:58)

I mean, how fast can you record that voicemail and send it out?

Dan Pfeiffer (14:01)

Yeah, that's right. That's a good point, bro. Send me back to the Senate caucus people.

Alex Wagner (14:05)

Get him back up on the Hill. They've been saying, where's Pfeiffer on the Hill? I think, I think the fact. I just want to say, I think the fact that Schumer and Jeffries are even doing this is a testament to the degree to which they want to hold the coalition together. They're doing this because progressives were like, we're not fucking doing this again. We need to extract something. We need to fight. We need to have a backbone. We need to go. And I think that they should be, you know, I think there should be some acknowledgement of the fact that they, you know, they're really trying to hold the party together and they're doing something that is gutsy. Right? I mean, and, and very risky. High risk, high reward. So that's, that's a positive, I think data point in all of this, that leadership is, you know, willing to take some risks to, in the, in the, in the sake of sort of preventing intra party mutiny, mutiny and holding folks together. I think the pressure is going to be extraordinary. I think Jonathan's going to keep calling for votes on this every day, and he's gonna try and smoke out one more Democratic member, and it's gonna be an enormous strain on the coalition. But listen, this is where all, you know, facets of the Democratic coalition, from activists, grassroots voters, you know, people that care about, you know, the future of this, our society collectively, they need to make their voices heard as much. I mean, right. It can't just be a battle that's fought by the lone soldiers on the Hill. Like, I really feel like this is where people who are listening to this podcast and people who give a shit about their parents and their healthcare and their healthcare in the future need to be part of keeping the sort of beach ball in the air, to use a weird Club Med metaphor. And if that can happen, it will give them strength. But the more we second guess the strategy and say it's a losing hand and say they're gonna cave, the easier it will be for them to cave because they're on the front lines and Republicans are gonna use every tactic they can to try and fracture the coalition. And they don't need that many more.

Dan Pfeiffer (16:04)

Votes, though it like, there's always a fear that Democrats will capitulate like that is possible. Senate Republicans also have capitulated and shut down. Senators generally are uncomfortable with all this. They'd rather be, like, doing something, or at least previous generations of Republican senators would rather be doing something than shutting down the government. But there are some dynamics that lend themselves to staying in the fight. One is the last time there was a shutdown that Democrats kind of sort of initiated. It was the, we call it the Waffle House shutdown over here at Crooked Media. But it was over. It was to, it was in 2018, I think to 28. It was in 2018 to try to demand that Trump help. The Dreamers and Democrats folded over the weekend. Now, what led to the surrender that time was all, there were a whole bunch of Democrats in tough seats who were up for election in 2018, and they had wanted no part of this. In this situation, you only have one incumbent Democrat in a very tough race, and that is Jon Ossoff in Georgia, and he seems to be fully on board with the strategy. And so you're not going to get that sort of pressure, because the other people that they're, like, targeting who could bail is like Jean Shaheen, who's retiring. And it's like, is she really going to, because she voted the last time the government opened, is she really going to do that again? It's like, I've seen people who are retiring take a tough vote to help other members. I'm not really sure who she's helping here if Jon Ossoff is okay with this. And so that does help. And the way that Trump and the Republicans are overplaying their hands so much here, refusing to negotiate as we'll get to trying to exert pain on as many people as possible, that doesn't help. That hardens people's positions, doesn't solve them. So I don't, like, I don't know if I'm being Pollyannish about this, but I think that Democrats are going to, are willing to stay in this for a while because Trump is already screwing over, doing all these terrible things when the government was open. So it's not like there's like, one world where the grass is really green and there's the world we're in. It kind of sucks in both places. And so I think there's a, I think there's a chance that Democrats could, could stick here And I think they probably also understand that Schumer has a lot of stake in this. And if they bail before he does, then he like, he will. Like he's already, his poll numbers are already terrible at Democrats. He has a potential primary in 2028. They would be doing him a great disservice if, sort of an act of disloyalty if they abandoned the fight before he did.

Alex Wagner (18:34)

Yeah, and like the fact that he got into a fight is a testament to the degree to which he wants to. I don't, the word isn't appease, but like I said, he is trying to be a unifying figure in all this. So maybe don't mutiny against the captain.

Dan Pfeiffer (18:48)

Do you have any ideas on how this possibly ends other than the government stays shut down indefinitely?

Alex Wagner (18:54)

Dan Pfeiffer's voicemail is gonna change the. I, I mean, I guess the best case scenario is the White House offering a deal on extending ACA subsidies and, and the government opens, reopens and everybody tries to take credit. I mean I feel like the fact that the White House is making overtures towards, you know, how much the cares about health care by negotiating with Pfizer or whatever, you know, these sort of fig leafs that they're offering to the American public as rejoinders to the contention that the White House is populated by cruel people who don't care about Americans and their health care. That's a testament to they, they know this is an issue that they could lose on. So maybe there's some deal to be made there. But I mean, I don't think that this is gonna reframe. You know, I think an important part of this, if you're in the legislative branch, is an assurance that the shit you pass in Congress doesn't just get overridden by the President and they're trying that process from happening again, the rescission nonsense. Because like what's the point of Congress if the President can just be like, yeah, you know what, nevermind, whatever you did, that doesn't count. I don't think that's going to get solved in this. I just have a very hard time that Trump or the Republicans are going to accede to that demand at all in any way. But I mean I'm hopeful, I'm hopeful that some kind of semi sanity and mutual vested interest in this can lead to some movement on the ACA and everybody can just agree that they're going to take credit for it and pretend like it was their handiwork and that it's, you know, the Democrats get something meaningful and good out of it and don't harm the party in the process and maybe are emboldened to take big moves the next time there's an important fight. I guess that's my hope. That's my hope. But I don't, I mean, like, or the filibuster could end and this could.

Dan Pfeiffer (20:39)

Be like, that is one option. The Republicans could, they could end the filibuster to, to pass this bill and they took like somewhat unprecedented set of moves around the big beautiful bill, which were kind of akin to eliminate, to deal to. They were basically, they were willing to go nuclear in some ways to get the big beautiful bill, the budget bill, whatever you want to call it out. They could do that here. Trump does not like the filibuster. I'm not sure there are enough votes among the Republican caucus to do that Right. Yet. But maybe weeks from now that could possibly be the case. I think one possible outcome here, and this is once again me possibly being Pollyannish, which is something I've never done with this before.

Alex Wagner (21:18)

I know I don't think of you as a Pollyanna like figure, Jim.

Dan Pfeiffer (21:20)

No one does.

Alex Wagner (21:21)

But hey, I'm happy to have you wear that.

Dan Pfeiffer (21:23)

Yeah, I just maybe I don't know what it is today. I sleep better last night than the night before. It must be you. It is the true pleasure of doing this podcast with someone other than Jon Favreau has turned me into a glass.

Alex Wagner (21:35)

Half full kind of lightness in your heart. Yeah. Okay.

Dan Pfeiffer (21:38)

Yes. So one way this possibly ends is that Trump becomes convinced that extending these tax credits is good for him.

Alex Wagner (21:48)

Yeah, right.

Dan Pfeiffer (21:50)

Earlier this summer, a memo went around that showed just how critical it was for Republicans chances in the midterms to extend these tax credits. The author of that memo or one of the two authors of that memo was Tony Fabrizio, his pollster, who obviously is working for the insurance companies on some sort of insurance company funded project to get this done. But if he sees that this is good for him politically or the increase in premiums is bad for him politically and could hurt the chances of the midterm, then you could see him cutting a deal and trying to take credit for it. That's one. That is one possible way. This.

Alex Wagner (22:26)

I feel like that's our best case scenario, right?

Dan Pfeiffer (22:28)

Yes. Yeah, that's probably the best case scenario. Now there are some questions here, like do they open the government for some period of time, a week, two weeks, a month, until after the Christmas holidays, to have a negotiation around this to try to get something done like is that one process and then we're right back at it. Because they still, once they get the cr, they still have to theoretically pass come to a longer term budget agreement to actually fund the government for more than some short period of time. And that's the point where they're going to have to have the recision conversation where Democrats, if there's going to be anything other than short term CRS ad finitum, then you're gonna have to have some provision which says the president cannot unilaterally undo this deal. Cause there is something very, very wrong with a budget process that requires 60 votes to pass the budget, but 50 votes to undo the deal totally. And so we'll have to see what that goes. But I think there's a chance if Democrats hang in there and they message better and we'll get to the messaging in a bit. I think there's a world in which they could come away with a victory here of some kind.

Alex Wagner (23:38)

Listen, Dan, I just hope that my jam band CRS forever ad inf an item like never takes off.

Dan Pfeiffer (23:44)

Yes. You know what I'm saying? What a sentence I just uttered. Just really. My brain is broken.

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Dan Pfeiffer (24:50)

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Alex Wagner (24:52)

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Alex Wagner (25:49)

Hey, it's Kirsten Gillibrand here at the DSCC with a very important message. Something big is taking shape. Democrats are gaining in the polls. We're winning special election after special election and we are far from through. But I need your help to keep the work going and flip the Senate seats to finally put a check on Trump. Will you chip in before midnight to help Democrats win the Senate? Donate now@dscc.org win paid for by DSC.

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Dan Pfeiffer (26:22)

Let's turn to the man that has the power to make this shutdown as painful as possible for Democrats and frankly, every American, Russ Vogt, the former architect of Project 2025 turned OMB director Trump met with Vote earlier today to discuss which Democrat agencies Vote would permanently cut during the shutdown. Vote has also threatened mass firings at federal agencies and said that layoffs would begin in a day or two. Additionally, vote immediately froze $8 billion in funding for a series of Biden era clean energy infrastructure projects in predominantly blue states, as well as $18 billion in funding for an infrastructure project in New York City, which happens to be the home of Democratic leaders Hakeem Jeffries and Chuck Schumers. For all intents and purposes, Russ Vote appears to be relishing the opportunity. A shutdown presents something Senator Mike Lee says he's been planning for quite some time. Let's take a listen. This is what they're doing. They're doing it deliberately. It's going to harm them because Russ Vogt, the OMB director, has been dreaming about this moment, preparing this moment since Puberty. Russ Vogt has a plan, and that plan is going to succeed in empowering further empowering Trump. This is going to be the Democrats worst nightmare, and it's of their own making. Alex, do you want to unpack what Senator Mike Lee has to say here about Russ Vote and his motivations?

Alex Wagner (27:37)

Thanks for putting the image of Russ Vote in puberty in my mind. Mike Lee.

Dan Pfeiffer (27:43)

Don't thank me for cannot see that.

Alex Wagner (27:45)

Also, doesn't that explain it all? Like, oh, this is what Russ Vote was thinking about during puberty. Well, yeah. That explains today's modern Republican Party, right? That's what you were thinking of in those crucial, critical developmental years, slashing the size of the federal government.

Dan Pfeiffer (28:02)

I think he's essentially suggesting that for Russ Vote, this is sexual.

Alex Wagner (28:08)

This is a wet dream. Let's just say it's wet dream. I'm sorry I said these things. Can we delete it? I don't know.

Dan Pfeiffer (28:14)

Did we just name the podcast? Did we just name the podcast? I don't know.

Alex Wagner (28:17)

Oh, my God. Gross. All right. Sorry. I've barfed in my mind. This is. This is the problem. This is the problem, right? I mean, first of all, this is not normal. It is not normal to be torturing commuters in New Jersey and New York and punishing 220,000 workers in California and targeting Minnesota's energy grid. Like, that's what's happening here. This is, like, wanton and cruel and highly unusual to have some. Now, let's call him a weird guy who has had a passion, a zeal, an anti bureaucratic, anti federal government, anti. I don't know, just a zealot at the omb, giving him free reign to wreak havoc and own the libs in, like, the most, like, potentially disastrous fashion as it concerns the role of the federal government and its impact on American lives. Like, these are projects that will make us resilient, energy independent, clean the air, make us competitive internationally with superpowers that are in many ways way ahead of us. Like, this is literally shooting ourselves in the feet, hurting us. Because you just want to, like, just because torture is fun. This is like the, the. The. The. The Republican fiscal hog version of, like, finding someone's cat and skinning it, right? Like, this is not Jesus. It is.

Dan Pfeiffer (29:45)

Talk about putting an image in right now.

Alex Wagner (29:46)

I'm sorry. It's like the wet dream, the skin cat. It's also disgusting. Everybody's turned this podcast off so you and I can just, like, get real. But it is. It is so foul. And I don't Think we should let the cruelty that is inherent in all of this go unnoticed. And like, at the same time, it's deeply problematic. Right. This is what I mean about playing chicken with a group of people who have been like, just dying to gun the engine and drive the car off the cliff. Like, this is Russell Vogt sitting there, like, twiddling his fingers and deciding which blue state and which lib program to unwant and like, kneecap next. And that's scary. This is a project he's had in mind for, for, you know, Project 2025. Turns out it's totally real, Dan. And that guy is now pulling the levers. So, I mean, I find the whole thing terrifying and not just because this is the fantasies had since puberty.

Dan Pfeiffer (30:38)

Yeah, it's. I mean, it is worth noting that throughout the entire campaign, Donald Trump the promise are like, Project 2025 is a hoax. And then Donald Trump truths out. Today I'm meeting with the head of Project 2025, Russ Vogue.

Alex Wagner (30:49)

Exactly.

Dan Pfeiffer (30:50)

Oh. Oh, you were full of shit then. I see, I see. I think these guys, I think Russ Vote and Donald Trump, the rest of these guys are either full of shit or they're dumb as hell. Because you can cut all these programs for blue states. You can theoretically do that because the Supreme Court will let Donald Trump do anything. But guess who's up in November?

Alex Wagner (31:13)

Totally.

Dan Pfeiffer (31:14)

It's not Chuck Schumer in New York, it's Mike Lawler and a bunch of very vulnerable House Republicans. All these blue. The houses can be decided in blue states.

Alex Wagner (31:24)

Yep.

Dan Pfeiffer (31:24)

And so if you want to, if they want to use this opportunity to attack blue states, that is going to, that is going to be such a self defeating, stupid thing to do, which I think they are trying to talk a tough game to try to convince Democrats to fold here. Like a lot, if you read the fine print, a lot of what they're doing is freezing funding. In the case of the New York infrastructure project, they're doing a DEI review of the funding and they can't do it because they furloughed all the civil rights people who do DEI reviews. And so I do think they are a little bit of trying to talk tough here to try to scare Democrats. There's also real legal questions. There's reports in the Washington Post that the agency lawyers have told the cabinet secretaries, you probably don't want to do these layoffs because it probably violates the law.

Alex Wagner (32:11)

Although that hasn't stopped them in the past.

Dan Pfeiffer (32:14)

But, you know, yeah, they might, I mean, they might fire Them, like they might fire them. A court may put them back, another court may undo them.

Alex Wagner (32:22)

Then we go to the Supreme Court and that outcome, we sort of know what happens there.

Dan Pfeiffer (32:26)

But once again, they are talking a better game than the hand they're actually.

Alex Wagner (32:30)

But I mean, even the talk is sick. Like, this isn't how it's supposed to work. You don't get to do this. You don't get to just torture people as a partisan mechanism. And I just think it's to see the glee even in that Mike Lee clip, the joy. Right. It's so cruel, it's so dark. It's so fucked up. And like, it shouldn't be. It just, I mean, I just, I marinate in just the sort of precedent that sets and the sort of. The new age of this Republican Party.

Dan Pfeiffer (33:04)

Back in April, when Democrats decided to fund the government, one of Schumer's big arguments was he was very worried that vote would do to the government agencies exactly what he's doing right now during the shutdown. Does this give you any second thoughts about this strategy?

Alex Wagner (33:21)

I mean, I have second thoughts about the strategy all the time. And at the same time, I think it was the only strategy that could have been pursued. I just think I have a real aversion to business as usual because nothing here is normal and it could all, you know, it could blow up in everyone's face. But I do think you have to try and do something bold and different, something that sort of resets the conversation. You know, it's risky. I have no idea what Russ Vote's gonna be able to do. I think that you make a really important and astute point about how politically this could be costly on just a policy level and then a political level. And you have to hold onto that. In a moment like this, we're just in terra incognito. So, like, yeah, I mean, maybe Chuck Schumer was right, but the last time Chuck Schumer saved Republican asses, that didn't go over so well either. And it's like we can't keep, like Democrats can't keep doing the same thing over and over again because the administration is acting with impunity. And this is the first time there's a little bit of soft shoe back and forth with Democrats over an issue that really matters.

Dan Pfeiffer (34:32)

Yeah, I mean, there is no risk free options here. Right. As we saw from funding the government, there was great risk in that. Think of all the things that happened with government funding since the Democrats funded it this spring. It is like you just have to be willing to take some risks. And if you truly believe we are in an extraordinary time facing an extraordinary threat, then you can, and you have to respond in kind. You can't respond in just simple, ordinary politics. And like, you're right. Like, this could go terribly. It absolutely could go terribly. Terribly politically, it could go terribly substantively. It's bad for the economy. There are people who are going to be hurt, but things are not going great the other way either. And you just have to take risks. I don't know what the downside is here. I know there is some upside in the alternative universe where you just decided not to fight and funded the government through the election. I know exactly what the downside is, and I know there's no upside. So this seems to be. You need in these moments to have a high variance strategy. And this is a high variance strategy. Even like we're playing with live ammo here. I want to be very clear about that. I remember sitting in the White House going through all the damage from the shutdown. It is very real. We take it very seriously. But you also, on the other hand, have 15 million people whose premiums are going to skyrocket and they're not going to be able to go to the drugstore and get medicines. I can be able to go to the doctor. People will.

Alex Wagner (35:56)

They'll go bankrupt because of chemotherapy. As AOC explains to us, this is very real. And I will say, as someone that spent a lot of time with furloughed federal workers in the last prolonged government shutdown, who were people who had been working for the federal government for decades, who were in line at soup kitchens to get canned food because they could no longer afford their groceries. There is a group of people who are doing the hard work of government who are gonna get real fucked for every day this goes on. And those lives are real, those people are real. And man, it is a thankless job, especially right now, filled with peril. So, like, you know, my heart and my thoughts go out to, like, the. The reality they're living as well.

Dan Pfeiffer (36:37)

I mean, just think about that. These, some of these people were told when they left their offices on Wednesday or on Tuesday, I guess, in anticipation of the shows, and on Wednesday to bring their work phones with them so that they could get a notice about layoffs if we're one were to come. Yeah, like, imagine the anxiety that gives people. Because the whole point, like one of the, like, if you're working for the government, you're going to have great benefits and you're going to have job security. What you're not going to like you're. But you're going to make less money than people would make for doing similar jobs in the private sector in many cases. And now you have your job secure. Now you live constantly on the precipice of losing your job. At any moment one of these Maga Doge goons can just fire you and undermining a lot of why you took that job. It's a terrible, terrible situation. I would just know and as part of this fight we should try to protect these people. Right? That's one of the things we're trying to do.

Alex Wagner (37:28)

The reason my mother came over here is because my grandmother was offered a job with the Library of Congress and the US government got my family out of Burma, got my grandmother a job. And like the reason I'm on this earth in some ways is because of the federal bureaucracy and federal government work. And that was like one of the best periods of her life. They were saved from a country that was, you know, and continues to be in the middle of chaos because of government work. And it was good work and it was important work and it like offered her a pension and, and just to see how those workers are treated now and the gutting of that service is just so sad and also shameful because it's one of the things that I think has made this country great.

Dan Pfeiffer (38:16)

In the absence of negotiations, the shutdown should really become simply a messaging exercise. Which side can exert enough political pain on the other to force compromise or surrender. The Republicans have been out in full force all week, consistently pushing their admittedly ridiculous talking points about Democratic demands. Let's listen. The Democrats said instead that they wanted to give health care to illegal aliens instead of keeping critical services provided for the American citizens.

Ad Read Host (38:40)

That's what happened, plain and simple. What they have done instead is to shut down the government because we won't give billions of dollars to health care funding for illegal aliens. That is what has actually happened.

Alex Wagner (38:50)

They are holding our country hostage. They are holding the American people hostage for this wildly unpopular proposal to get give taxpayer funded benefits to illegals. And now they're lying about it and they know it.

Dan Pfeiffer (39:01)

Meanwhile, Democratic messaging has been a bit all over the map. Some are talking about healthcare, some are trying to pin the blame for the shutdown on the gop. Others are very mad about some racist AI videos. As just one example, the Democrats official TikTok account posted a video explaining the shutdown using cats. One bright spot though has been this great video AOC And Bernie Sanders put out of them explaining their view on the shutdown. Let's take a listen.

Alex Wagner (39:25)

Why didn't you vote for this clean.

Ad Read Host (39:27)

CR to keep the government open?

Alex Wagner (39:29)

Well, there's nothing clean about it. This is one of the dirtiest tricks that is being pulled on the American people right now. Starting today, October 1st, and throughout the rest of the month, Americans across this country are going to start getting notifications that their insurance premiums are up to doubling a ton.

Ad Read Host (39:50)

And we're already paying by far the.

Dan Pfeiffer (39:53)

Highest prices in the world for health care at a time when people can't afford it right now.

Alex Wagner (39:58)

And so Republicans want us to rubber stamp that. And we're saying no. We need to stand up for the American people. We need to stand up for our health care system. And if they want our votes, they need to make sure that we're protecting every American and making sure that we can do what we can to continue to make health care accessible, affordable, as we work to make it a human right for all.

Dan Pfeiffer (40:20)

All right, let's start with the Republicans. Alex, can you just set the record straight on why their claims about health care for illegal aliens is complete and utter bullshit?

Alex Wagner (40:28)

People who do not have their papers to be here cannot access federally funded health care. They are not eligible for Medicaid, Medicare. They can't go on the ACA exchanges and buy health care. There is a small group of migrants or immigrants who are here who are considered lawfully present who have access to this. But there is no world in which Democrats are fighting to get undocumented immigrants access to federally funded health care. It is a lie. It is also the most obvious. Like they're running the only play they have, really, in moments of, you know, crisis, which is talk about illegals. Just like if, if something's going bad, like talk about illegals. And this is, you know, like the people who were lawfully present in this country who were able to access some federally funded health care are people like refugees, people who have papers to be here temporarily, DACA recipients. This is a small group of people who are now who are made ineligible under the last funding bill or under the build back, under the one big beautiful God. Can we just call it something else? The one.

Dan Pfeiffer (41:32)

They call it the Republican budget bill.

Alex Wagner (41:33)

The Republican budget bill. And Democrats are seeking to restore their eligibility, but they are by no means trying to create a new set of subsidies or access to health care for people who do not have papers to be in the country legally. And it's a lie. And it's also race Baiting. And it's also just the, you know, more of the Republican bullshit to distract from what they're really trying to do, which is make, you know, redistribute income to the top, you know, 0.01% and make everybody else pay for it.

Dan Pfeiffer (42:01)

Yeah. There's a couple things here. One, if Donald Trump had a poker tell, it would be when he starts lying about immigrants, that's a sign when he knows he's in trouble in some way, shape or form. That was the caravan in 2018. This is. I know everyone thinks they have the strongest hand, but this lie is so just bold and brazen, and it's indefensible. They can't even go on regular to talk to actual reporters without getting just. Just massacred on it. Right. Like, it just doesn't hold up to any scrutiny. It also really, it's a real window into what they truly believe, which is any immigrant, anyone who's here, you know, has legal status, is not. Is not a real person. They're inhuman. They do not count. And that, like, this is like, they. They like to pretend like, oh, we're fine with legal immigration. It's illegal immigration. We don't like. Well, but in this case, they are treating people who are here legally under an array of programs and saying they should not have access, they should not be here, and we're going to just call them illegal. Right. They're just lying about people because that's what. Because in their mind, someone who's here legally went through the process, who waited in line, filed a legitimate amnesty claim, came over here for humanitarian reasons, because what's happening in Ukraine or Afghanistan or any of that, that they are exactly the same as someone who crossed the border illegally. Right. That's the same. It is. Like, that is what is in their head. That is the unspoken truth to their actual position.

Alex Wagner (43:41)

And why are they the same? Dan, why are they the same? Because they weren't born here. Basically. It's nativism.

Dan Pfeiffer (43:48)

And they're not white. Because, remember, we're welcoming the South African immigrants here, the white South African immigrants here.

Alex Wagner (43:54)

Afrikaners. Yeah. That's another conversation for another time.

Dan Pfeiffer (43:59)

Yes. Do you have any worry the American people will buy this bullshit?

Alex Wagner (44:03)

I don't think so. I actually think this is one where it's like, huh? I mean, nobody's talking about that. Democrats have, like, it's, it's. Again, this goes back to, like, I think one. One of the structural advantages Democrats have in this fight is like, they are seen as a party that gives a shit about the sick and the poor and healthcare. Like they're. It's called Obamacare. You know what I mean? Like it's a party plank and the Democrats are saying unanimously and with one voice. This is about fight for, you know, ensuring that costs don't go up on insurance premiums and people have access to healthcare. And I think the canard that this is, you know, Democrats trying to pay for, you know, trans undocumented migrants. Like healthcare is. So it's such a convoluted and pathetic and destructive narrative. I just, I have more faith in the American people and I just don't think it takes. It's already baked in. Like I think people understand why Democrats are fighting this fight because they've basically been fighting this fight since I was five. You know, like this has been going on for a while.

Dan Pfeiffer (45:07)

Yeah, I think, I'm not sure this is a believable claim that they would actually do this. To the extent that you. Where it has some potential efficacy. It's in this idea that Democrats are extreme on immigration issues. This is, you know, this is sort of a similar reason why the, that really infamous gross trans ad about Kamala Harris was effective. It was not that people really thought that she was actually going to support taxpayer funded gender affirming care for undocumented people in prison. It was that this is an indication that she's out of touch. And so they're trying to play into that stereotype. I just don't think this is their best argument. Right. This is the argument that gets their base fired up. Their base is already fired up. This is the argument that gets Fox News all fired up. Fox News is already fired up up. If they have an actual political task here, it's that most people think the Republicans are in the wrong here. They think they're in the wrong on the shutdown, that they're actually responsible. This because they control all of government unwilling to negotiate and they think that they're wrong on the policy issue. And so they're having an argument that is not of a piece of what the actual conversation is. And sometimes I. You've been on it. I do this recently returned YouTube show, Political Experts react where we look at political ads and content and the ads that come from Republicans are often like they have Fox News brain on it, which is you can tell that the person who made the ad gets all of their information from right wing media. So they're making an ad that speaks to that audience. And I think this argument is a little akin to that.

Alex Wagner (46:36)

Well, And I also think, you know, people can be. If it's an issue like immigration that doesn't necessarily touch people at the kitchen table. They. They can be lied to or the truth. The truth can be muddied. But people give a shit about their healthcare premiums. People give a shit about their access to doctors. And they will find. You know what I mean? This is. Get to the bottom of it. And I think it makes it harder to lie about what's actually happening here.

Dan Pfeiffer (47:03)

All right, I've put this off long enough that it's time. Everyone's favorite topic.

Alex Wagner (47:07)

Have you.

Dan Pfeiffer (47:08)

I mean, I'm running out of room here, but everyone's favorite topic. Democratic messaging.

Alex Wagner (47:13)

Yeah.

Dan Pfeiffer (47:13)

Alex, what have you made about the Democratic messages so far? Effective or not so much?

Alex Wagner (47:17)

I mean, listen, let's talk about the. What do we call it? A public service announcement from aoc. And Bernie thought it was great.

Dan Pfeiffer (47:24)

Yep.

Alex Wagner (47:24)

It's like more of this. Like, why is this. Why has this been so elusive? Like, plain speak, declarative, informative and authentic. Really clear. That's what. That's what this should be. And Democrats should be fanning out, doing all kinds of this. It's just so abundantly clear in that video that this is the truth. And it. And I just think it's. It's actually really helpful. I mean, I think they need to do more of that. No, more like clickbaity cat videos. Like it. This is a really serious topic. There's a way to just get at it in a succinct fashion that really underscores the gravity of the moment and the reason Democrats are taking a stand. And I think that video does it beautifully.

Dan Pfeiffer (48:06)

Yeah, I. I would say I don't mind the cat video. It's like, for a particular article.

Alex Wagner (48:10)

I mean, I'm a cat lover, too, Dan, but it got.

Dan Pfeiffer (48:13)

Last I checked, it had like, nearly 4 million views on TikTok.

Alex Wagner (48:15)

Because people love cats.

Dan Pfeiffer (48:16)

That is, they love cats. Cat videos have always said, well, the Internet, it's one of the. Some of the first viral videos involve cats. But I think the. I'll get to the Bernie video, AFC video in a minute. But I think there's sort of three things that Democrats could do better in their messaging. The first is stop trying to blame the Republicans for the shutdown. Like, they're constantly in. Like, there's so much of our content is like the Republicans shut it down. This is the Trump shutdown. It's the MAGA shutdown. No one cares who's responsible for it. Right. We can debate who's responsible for it. But that's not the point. That is an argument for Politico Punchbowl inside the Beltway media. And the sort of value of shaping that conversation is so diminished in this media environment. It's just like, it's not what people care about. Second, there is this tension related to that. There's this tension between saying that. That, you know, this fight's so important, but you're not the one who started the fight. Like, if you care so passionately about it, be proud of the tactic you use to start the fight. Like, we care about all we like. We. The government's very important. We don't want to hurt any of these people. But the stakes here are so high for so many people that we have to take this extraordinary step to do it.

Alex Wagner (49:32)

Totally.

Dan Pfeiffer (49:32)

Like, lean into it. Like, there is this sense of discomfort with the actual thing we're doing, which is like, we really want to fight, but we don't want to tell people. We want the fight to come to us. Like, pick the fight. You pick the fight. Be proud. You pick the fight. It's a righteous fight.

Alex Wagner (49:46)

Totally. It's a principled fight. They have principle in their favor and they should stand up.

Dan Pfeiffer (49:50)

Yes, lean. Lean into it. So that's one, two. Stop confusing. Your legislative strategy and your messaging strategy. Your legislative strategy and the possible exit ramp here is some sort of deal on the ACA tax credits. Like that. I'm sure every wishy washy member wanted to know from Schumer, Jeffries, if we go in this, how do we get it out? And that's the most obvious answer, because it's really the only thing there might possibly one day be an agreement on. But that's your legislative strategy. The way you achieve your legislative strategy is to win the messaging war. And the way you win the messaging war is to make this entire thing be about a bigger conversation, about that you are the ones fighting to lower healthcare costs. You are fighting for people. Like that is your strategic goal. Every moment talking about something else totally. Is a missed opportunity to talk about the one thing.

Alex Wagner (50:40)

Totally.

Dan Pfeiffer (50:40)

That's why the AOC Bernie video is so good, because it makes it very clear, here's why we're doing it, here's why it's important. It's a big fucking deal. So we have to take on this big fucking risk to do it. And like this. We're just so. We're like tiptoeing in. This is sort of the third thing. And this is like a problem with Democratic messaging. A lot over the last couple years. Here is we're playing not to lose, right? Like we, like we're not confident in our position. So we're not being aggressive about it. It's like we can win this fight. Act like you win this fight. Be aggressive about it.

Alex Wagner (51:12)

Well. And if you've learned anything from the Trump years, play to win, believe you can win, have the posture of a winner.

Dan Pfeiffer (51:20)

Yeah, we just, we really struggle. Like there's a learned helplessness that we have gotten. Like, in fairness, it's been a rough many years. Right. Like, like it's just for Democrats, we've gotten beat. Like the 2024 election was a scarring event. It's just people are struggling with. But just like be more aggressive about it.

Alex Wagner (51:41)

It's like what Hailey Barber. I think it was Hailey Barber. Keep the main thing. The main thing. The main thing is healthcare. Go at it with everything you got.

Dan Pfeiffer (51:49)

A Hailey Barber reference for our younger listeners.

Alex Wagner (51:53)

Listen, it's not a catchy time.

Dan Pfeiffer (51:54)

Governor of Mississippi, but he was a very, he was an RNC chair, very powerful Republican.

Alex Wagner (51:58)

Keep the main thing, the main thing.

Dan Pfeiffer (52:01)

All right, one quick thing before we jump to break the Supreme Court's new term is off to the racist and surprise, surprise, it's a mess. In October, the justices will decide if cops can storm your house without a warrant, if states can play games with black voters districts, and if free speech stops at your therapist's office door. And Crooked's legal podcast, strict scrutiny is here to cut through the chaos. With legal expertise and plenty of side eye that was written for me, I promise new episodes drop every Monday. It's an amazing podcast. It's one of my favorite listens. Check it out wherever you get your podcasts and watch it on YouTube. Every day we here at Crooked Media sift through endless noise and misinformation trying to make sense of it all for you. With attacks on free speech growing louder, Crooked's commitment to facts and no BS commentary has never been more essential. If you want to stay informed while supporting independent media, you're in the right place. We report the facts and deliver honest analysis. But here's the truth. We can't do it alone. If you believe in media that holds power accountable, consider becoming a paid subscriber to Crooked Media. Your support helps us keep doing this work. In return, you get all your favorite shows ad free plus exclusive subscriber only content and a Discord community to connect with like minded people from across the country. Subscribe to Friends of the Pod on Apple substack Spotify or YouTube or visit crooked.com friends to help us keep building something great over here. Subscribe to Friends in the Pod on Apple substack, Spotify or YouTube or visit crooked.com friends to help us keep building something great over here.

Alex Wagner (53:23)

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Dan Pfeiffer (53:34)

No. That slimy bastard.

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Dan Pfeiffer (53:38)

I don't trust him as far as I can throw those fish guts. He's got a little shiftiness in his eyes, my fishmonger. He does.

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Alex Wagner (53:49)

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Dan Pfeiffer (53:50)

I think it's a bit.

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I don't either. I made it too. I made a. I made one. I made. I made a curry with like a coconut curry with it.

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Alex Wagner (55:11)

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Dscc.Org, not authorized by any candidate or candidates committee.

Dan Pfeiffer (55:44)

Another part of the messaging fight that we need to talk about is the strange AI generated videos Trump posted of Hakeem Jeffries this week. The videos feature Jeffries in a sombrero and mustache and are set to mariachi music, which is definitely not racist. The videos have sparked strong reactions among Democrats. The White House has been defiant, even playing one of the videos in a loop in the press room. Here's Jeffrey's response, followed by Vance at a White House presser on Wednesday. Could you give us your reaction to that Trump posted video tonight? It's a disgusting video and we're going to continue to make clear bigotry will get you nowhere. We are fighting to protect the health care of the American people in the face of an unprecedented Republican assault.

Ad Read Host (56:29)

Oh, I think it's funny. The President's joking and we're having a good time. You can negotiate in good faith while also poking a little bit of fun at some of the absurdities of the Democrats position and even, you know, poking some, some fun at the absurdity of the Democrats themselves. I mean, I'll tell Hakeem Jeffries right now. I make this solemn promise to you that if you help us reopen the government, the sombrero memes will stop.

Dan Pfeiffer (56:50)

If there's one person who knows Funny, it's J.D. vance.

Alex Wagner (56:53)

It's true. He leads with humor.

Dan Pfeiffer (56:54)

Alex, what do you make of this whole thing?

Alex Wagner (56:56)

I mean, he was also asked if he thought the. Vance was asked if he thought the video was racist or bigoted and said, I don't even know what that means. Which is like the first true thing.

Dan Pfeiffer (57:05)

Probably doesn't.

Alex Wagner (57:06)

JD Vance has actually said. I mean, I gotta say, we've come so far as a country that the president. And come so far, we've descended so far. The President of the United States is posting and defending what is just on its face, racist garbage, and it's not funny. And the fact that the Vice President of the United States can smile and laugh at that. I mean, I just. This is one of those things where I spent time with, you know, voters of color leading into the 2024 election. And a lot of them that I spoke with were ready to make peace with Trump. But you gotta hope that this is the Kind of shit they remember, you know, and you don't have to be a voter of color to care about this. In fact, you shouldn't just be a voter of color to care about this. In fact, more white people should care about this. But, God, I hope they pay a price. It is not okay, and it's not funny. And it just, it gives the. It gives, it sheds light on the central, you know, tactic and the strategy here, which is, you know, race bait. Make this about illegals. Make, you know, poke fun at the Democrats as being a party that cares about brown and black people. Make that a joke. Make the welfare and the wellness and the survival of the weakest among us. And those who've been, you know, just dealt the worst hands, make their unhappiness and their pain a thing to laugh at. I mean, it's so awful. I gotta say, I thought Hakeem Jeffries did absolutely the right thing, was speaking to my friend and former colleague Lawrence o', Donnell, you know, saying it's disgusting, saying it's racist, and then pivoting back to, this is why we're in this fight, and just going back to them, keeping the main thing. The main thing. But it is very hard to just let this pass and, and, and pivot to, you know, why Democrats are in this fight. Because it's just appalling. It's appalling.

Dan Pfeiffer (58:56)

Yeah, it is absolutely appalling. The fact that this is, it's getting attention, which is why we're talking about it. It's been a big topic on Capitol Hill. But the fact that it's something that happened and is not the biggest story in America really shows, as you mentioned, how far we've descended or how much Trump has moved the Overton window on what's acceptable conduct in public society. There's always a tension with everything that outrageous that Trump's does is you have to pick and choose, like, what are you going to fight about today? And I think Jeffrey said that, right? I mean, if you listen to the full clip, Lawrence really set him up. Because before we, before we cut in here, there's a long thing about how basically your point, how disgusting it is. And so Jeffries responds to it. And I think that's great. It's about Jeffries. He should respond to it. But in general, every moment that we are talking about something other than our fight to lower healthcare for people is that's what Trump wants. Like, that's why they're doing it. That's why they're leaning into it, because they want to take us down that path. And I just think we have to be disciplined about it. You should condemn it. And as Jeffries did, pivot right away, we need a little bit of dirt off our shoulders approach to these things, which is Obama had to do this all the time. He was constantly in a. There is an example of a Republican member of Congress who called him boy in a meeting during a shutdown, and he had to decide whether that was gonna be a public issue or not, because we were fighting to save the Affordable Care act at the time. You just sort of have to decide. And we can decide whether to give Trump the outrage he wants or not. And so we have to pick and choose the moments to do that.

Alex Wagner (60:40)

Would you say, Dan, as a veteran of the Obama administration, that it's like refashioning of the. When we, when they go low, it's not that we go high, it's like when they go low, we wipe the shit off of our feet. I just don't even like. As we keep marching. I don't even know. So many mixed metaphors, but. Because it's not necessarily trying to be above it, but it's, it's, it's, it's. I mean, it's, it's not accepting the invitation to descend, I guess. I don't, I don't.

Dan Pfeiffer (61:08)

Yeah, I just think you just. I think you have to pick and choose. Right. There are moments to do it and moments to not. And you can't ignore it. Hakeem Jeffrey's got to ask the question. You can't pretend the question didn't happen. You can't do a Republican. I didn't see the video. Right. But there is, as you said, stay focused. The main things, the main thing, stay focused.

Alex Wagner (61:28)

Hailey Barber. You see, now you're quoting him.

Dan Pfeiffer (61:30)

Yep. We're back to two Haley Barber references in one podcast, which is the first two Haley Barbour references in the history of Foxy America.

Alex Wagner (61:36)

That's why I'm here.

Dan Pfeiffer (61:37)

Meanwhile, on Tuesday, we saw more authoritarian lunacy from this administration. If you recall Secretary of Defense, because I won't call him Secretary of War. Pete Hegseth called more than 800 generals and admirals to Marine based Quantico. There was a ton of very scary speculation about the purpose of the meeting. Where we headed to war, was there imminent attack? But as it turned out, this was mostly a TED style lecture where Hegseth sauntered around the stage ranting about the wokeness of the military, military codes of conduct, and the physical appearance and fitness of soldiers. One Defense official told Politico that it was the definition of quote could have been an email. But Trump also decided to make an appearance where he was a bit more, let's say, fascistic about what he expected from the US Military. Here's Hagseth, followed by no more Identity Months. DEI offices, Dudes in dresses.

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Dan Pfeiffer (62:29)

To our enemies. F A, F O. I've never walked into a room so silent before. This is very. Don't laugh, don't laugh. You're not allowed to do that. You want to applaud, you applaud. And if you want to do anything you want, you can do anything you want. And if you don't like what I'm saying, you can leave the room. Of course, there goes your rank. There goes your future. Last month, I signed an executive order to provide training for Quick Reaction Force that can help quell civil disturbances. This is going to be a big thing for the people in this room because it's the enemy from within. And I told Pete we should use some of these dangerous cities as training grounds for our military National Guard. But military. Trump said it was going to be a nice meeting. Did that sound very nice to you?

Alex Wagner (63:17)

No. I mean, it sort of like toggles between Orwellian McCarthyism and, like, metrosexual Grooming Conference. Like. Like, it's just like, at one point, the Secretary of Defense said, fat generals are a bad look. And I was like, what? At the same time, the President of the United States is like, and we're also waging war on half the country, like, which is like, what the fuck was that? I found the whole thing incredibly disturbing. Dan.

Dan Pfeiffer (63:53)

Yeah, it's just. Let's start with the Pete Hegseth part here, which is almost. In the history of the United States government, no person has been less qualified for the job they have than Pete Hegseth. He's the weekend anchor of Fox News.

Alex Wagner (64:12)

I'm a former weekend anchor, so, like, let's not malign the entire category, but.

Dan Pfeiffer (64:16)

I like to think my wife's Alex. I have to say, I have a lot of respect, and there are a lot of places in the cabinet where I can see you working.

Alex Wagner (64:22)

Well, I mean, I'm assuming for the next administration as Secretary of War.

Dan Pfeiffer (64:27)

Yes. I think I feel like if you're a Secretary of defense. Let's say you were. Let's say that as a former cable weekend anchor.

Alex Wagner (64:33)

No, no, network. It was network. Let's just be clear.

Dan Pfeiffer (64:36)

Oh, network. You could be vice president. Yeah. Put you in the line of Succession. But like, the idea that you would act like this in front of the most senior members of the military, like, it just requires such a lack of self awareness that it's stunning. Like, you're gonna lecture these people, these people who've risen to the top of their profession, serving their country in a time of war on shaving and running laps. Like, it's just wild to have the.

Alex Wagner (65:06)

Audacity to tell a room full of generals in military dress, fat generals are a bad look. Who the fuck does Pete Hegseth think he is?

Dan Pfeiffer (65:17)

Yes, exactly. It's wild. It's truly wild. While most of Trump's speech was his normal rambling word vomit, we do have to talk about his line about using US Cities as training grounds for troops. And who exactly do you think he meant when he said the enemy within? What's your reaction?

Alex Wagner (65:33)

You and me, for sure. I mean, this is not okay. This is the language. This is the stuff that really needs to disturb everyone. I mean, this is like, I mean, they're not even, like, they're not even keeping a secret. They're completely, completely unconstitutional. Strategy here to launch a kind of like, semi civil war against blue cities and states universities that are seen as bastions of liberalism. I mean, it's war against our own people. And announced by the President of the United States at Quantico in front of a room of, what is it, 800 top military brass. This is a very alarming set of statements that he made. And there was a high degree of concern and outrage when President Trump talked about vermin and adopted the rhetoric of some of the worst autocrats and dictators of the 20th century. To be using this language again and to be targeting Americans in a military setting as Trump is ordering federal troops to cities, you know, across the country. Like, we're in this. We're in this. You know, we find ourselves constantly in this state of panic about so many things that Trump does, but this seems to be actually his raison d'. Etre. Like, I think there's just such a desire to punish and own those who disagree with him in the most acute and perverted fashion. And he's here announcing that and doubling down on it. And yeah, it's, it's. I mean, it, it. I, I don't, I don't know what the right expression was, but it's like the full, the culmination of something conservatives have been obsessed with, I think, since they first sort of felt the rising tide of liberalism in the 1960s and, and 40s, actually, in many cases.

Dan Pfeiffer (67:29)

Trump's bark is worse than his bike. Like, as we saw in dc, a lot of these National Guard people, he sends their end up picking up trash on the mall or sitting around doing nothing. Right? It's the people who, like the National Guard troops themselves, are pulled away from home to do nothing. It's not like they're just making a political statement. But the fact that he has no problem, he's too dumb or ahistorical or has too much dictator envy to see the danger. You just have to not understand what this country is about to think, think that it is okay to talk about in this way. Right? Like that's the exact opposite of what America is supposed to exist for. And it just is a very disturbing window into his mentality. That's like the danger of which is exponentially magnified by the fact this entire party is going to be fine with it. Right? Is that there is no bulwark to that. I mean, we're really counting on those people in the room who would not applaud to be the ones who will stop this from going too far. That's a scary place to be.

Alex Wagner (68:30)

We're in a scary place.

Dan Pfeiffer (68:40)

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Dan Pfeiffer (70:58)

Okay, speaking of scary places, let's pivot from the military to higher education as one does. This week, the White House rolled out what they're calling the Compact for academic excellence, a 10 point set of demands that will require universities to cap international enrollment at 15%, ban the use of race or gender in admissions or hiring, and reform or eliminate, quote, institutional units that purposely punish, belittle, or even spark violence against conservative ideas. Universities that signed onto this agreement would get preferential access to federal funding. Those that do not, well, pretty sure you can figure that out. So far, the White House has only invited nine schools they believe would be good actors to sign on. Those schools include Penn, usc, mit, and what I believe to be your alma mater, Brown University. Alex, what do you make of the shortlist and why is Brown on this list?

Alex Wagner (71:48)

I could insert some dumb inside Brown jokes, but I'm gonna save you from that. Dan, you are correct.

Dan Pfeiffer (71:53)

I'm sure we have many Brown listeners, and I've always thought that Brown is a very liberal place. Yeah, Was I wrong about that?

Alex Wagner (72:01)

No, you're not. It is a liberal place.

Dan Pfeiffer (72:04)

Are they too liberal for grades?

Alex Wagner (72:05)

You know What? That is a canard. Okay? Like I get grades. You can take things pass fail. But I, okay, I knew I did choose to get grades and they were okay. Kind of mediocre.

Dan Pfeiffer (72:17)

This is why you'll be Secretary of Defense.

Alex Wagner (72:18)

This is why. Also I have like a lot of thoughts on grooming.

Dan Pfeiffer (72:23)

Yes. Well, perfect.

Alex Wagner (72:24)

Look at these are, these are places that have signaled that they will play ball. You know, they're bastions of liberalism that Trump has targeted in other respects and they have signaled that they will play ball. And you know, the thing about, you know, making concessions to Trump if people haven't fucking figured this out yet, is you give him an inch and he'll ask for a mile. Like nobody's ever done. You're not done till it's over. And he tells you when it's over. So yeah, of course this is the short list. But I mean, Dan, this is like, it's also embarrassing for higher education, right? It's so dark, it's so bad. Autocrats love targeting universities because that's where people get educated and are opened to discussion and debate. I remember in Burma, I keep bringing it up, but one of the first things the military did after student led protests in 88 was crack down on universities. And to this day they have really curbed tons of institutions of higher, higher learning. They've shuttered universities before. Nobody likes places where people learn and discuss and debate and are exposed to new concepts and ideas and people. Because that's a losing hand for autocracy and dictatorship. So it's not surprising that our, you know, small handed autocrat here in the United States wants to tackle higher ed here. And he is assisted by conservatives who have been, you know, obsessed with this for, for decades. Right? Like, I mean, people forget I've been writing a book for the last, however, I mean, such a dumb idea. It's coming out next year. We don't have a name for it. But one of the things that I've been going back at is the origins of the Federalist Society. The Federalist Society started as an alt college group by a bunch of conservatives who were like, there's no place for us. It's an alt campus group that's effectively started by conservatives who are like, the liberal campuses suck. We have nobody like ourselves. There are no like minded individuals. What can we do to reclaim a little bit of territory for ourselves? And look what their Federalist Society is now. Right? Like there has been a focus and an obsession with the liberalism that is pervasive on university campuses and trying to rein it in at all costs. And this is like just the most exponentially extreme example of that agenda coming to fruition.

Dan Pfeiffer (74:44)

Yeah. It's deeply dangerous. It is the. It's essentially extortion.

Alex Wagner (74:50)

Yeah.

Dan Pfeiffer (74:50)

Is if you do these things, if you become more conservative, you adopt our political principles and our policies, we will give you federal money, the federal money you need to fund your research projects. Everything else, we will do that for you. And if you don't do it, then you will suffer competitively compared to other universities. And as you point out, this is the lesson of if you give in once, you're going to give in again and again and again. And because these universities can't stick together, some of them will immediately accept this because they think that'll give them an advantage over everyone else will force other people to do it and you'll end in a very bad place. Like this is. It's just if universities cannot fight for the First Amendment, who is going to do that?

Alex Wagner (75:35)

Totally.

Dan Pfeiffer (75:36)

Right. It's just like the media companies giving it right or the law firms or the law firms right. If law firms won't sue to protect their First Amendment rights, if universities won't fight for academic freedom and freedom of speech, if media companies won't fight for freedom of the press, that's it. Who is going to.

Alex Wagner (75:50)

That's the ball game, dude. Like, that's the ball game. And it's all because of money. Like, let's just remember that principle is more valuable than money. And the universities have endowments. And this is like, this is the fight. This is the existential fight for academic freedom. Don't mistake it for anything but that. Brown University. You get a fail on this one.

Dan Pfeiffer (76:11)

Perfect. Okay, there's been a lot of bad news this week and in this podcast, but it hasn't been all bad news.

Alex Wagner (76:17)

We've been quoting Hailey Barber.

Dan Pfeiffer (76:18)

Yes, that's where we are. We've been quoting Hailey Barber.

Alex Wagner (76:21)

Gotten.

Dan Pfeiffer (76:22)

So I thought we'd take a moment to talk about some good news. So first, the Supreme Court announced that it's allowing Federal Reserve Governor Lisa Cook to remain at her post while they consider Trump's case to fire her. The White House withdrew its nomination of E.J. antony, the controversial and unqualified hack. They chose to lead the Bureau of Labor Statistics after Republicans Susan Collins and Lisa Murkowski refused to even meet with them. On Tuesday, a Reagan appointed federal district judge issued a damning ruling of the Trump administration's effort to crack down on free speech. The ruling concluded that foreign students have the same First Amendment protections as U.S. citizens. The judge also responded to a threatening note he'd received which went, quote, trump has pardons in tanks. What do you have? Young's response. Dear Mr. Or Ms. Anonymous, alone I have nothing but my sense of duty. Together, we, the people of the United States, you and me, have our magnificent Constitution. And In a final 13 page section, the judge took Trump to task by breaking down the misdeeds of his second term. Young ended by writing, I think this is very powerful. I fear President Trump believes the American people are so divided that today they will not stand up, fight for and defend our most precious constitutional values so long as they are lulled into thinking their own personal interests are not affected. Is he correct? The White House, of course, called the ruling outrageous. Seems pretty spot on to me. What did you think?

Alex Wagner (77:38)

Yeah, you know, I think this is the sort of question we're all asking ourselves. Those of us who are still asking, it's like, where is everyone? You know, and I think that there's a real profound fear, I'm not going to say sinking suspicion, but I mean, where is everybody? You know, you just rattled off a group of institutions that should be fighting this for their own self interest. Right. But have decided that the money is just too easy to come by. I don't know. I mean, I think that the lower courts, like, like, hats off to them, these are the guys that are, you know, to, to actually, we should say, like, for these federal district judges to do what they're doing and to be very clear and, and pointed in their criticism of this administration is not an easy thing to do because they know what's coming at them. These judges are under threat. They are putting their, their own lives, the lives of their family at risk, and they're doing so on principle. And, and that's really hard. Like, that part of the court system is really heartening. But you do feel like it needs to be undergirded by people and other institutions that have their back. And I really do worry about him. I mean, I don't like that it ends with the question, is he correct? That scares me because it's something I think we're all asking ourselves right now. But I think it's a remarkable and courageous document. And I really hope this, as with all these things, we don't just end up back in John Roberts lap, where instead of a little white cat, it's just like whatever animal enables the Trump administration. That's such a weird visual. I just painted. I'm sorry.

Dan Pfeiffer (79:19)

It's okay. It's okay. It's been a weird week. You know, I think as we look at this, it's easy to ask the question, like, where is everyone? The people have responded, right? Like the people within the United States have responded. The no Kings Day protest is one of the largest protests in American history. People are showing up for things, they are protesting. They are actually there. The failure here is from elites. It's from the law firms, it's from the CEOs, it's from Wall street, it's from some Democratic leaders before this fight. And those are the people who are not standing up. The grassroots of the Democratic Party, the pro democracy movement in this country are responding. They are pushing back. They are, are living their values in volunteering, organizing, donating, protesting campaigns. The question is, are the elites gonna do it? And thus far, this, like Trump's authoritarian power grab has been enabled entirely by cowardly, greedy elites. Like that is exactly what's happening. And I wanna hear more Democrats make that argument.

Alex Wagner (80:24)

Yeah, the shame argument, it's powerful. I mean, it's shocking as a member of the media, as someone who went to brown, you know, like with friends in law firms, like, where are you guys? How can you not see this for what it is? This is your future.

Dan Pfeiffer (80:40)

Another bit of good news. The Pope is still woke.

Alex Wagner (80:43)

Yeah, baby.

Dan Pfeiffer (80:44)

On Tuesday, Pope Leo offered reporters a glimpse into his political views. The Chicago born pontiff was asked about an apparently controversial plan for a Catholic institution to give Illinois Senator Dick Durbin an award for support of migrants. Despite Durbin's support for abortion rights, here's how Pope Leo responded. Someone who says I'm against abortion, but says I'm in favor of the death penalty is not really pro life. So someone who says that I'm against.

Ad Read Host (81:09)

Abortion, but I'm in agreement with the.

Dan Pfeiffer (81:13)

Inhuman treatment of immigrants who are in the United States. I don't know if that's pro life. Is Pope Leo our best chance in 2028?

Alex Wagner (81:20)

Yeah, he is. I mean, I think that this is, this is the ace in the hole. Oh, you, you, you gop. You want to get rid of the division between church and state? Well, how about Pope for president? Snitches? Let's go. He's like an amazing Pope. I mean, Chicago, run it back. Why not? I think the minute Leo was, the smoke came out. It was black smoke, right? Black smoke.

Dan Pfeiffer (81:46)

When they chose the Pope, I think it's white smoke.

Alex Wagner (81:48)

White smoke, Right. It's black smoke when they haven't chosen. Sorry, I'm a bad lapsed Catholic. Quite obviously, this is the kind of stuff we need more of. We talk about institutions. Religious institutions are just as important in this fight as media institutions and legal institutions and the court system, like all hands on deck. And this pope is clearly a deeply ethical person. He has an incredible pulpit, quite literally to speak from. And I think it's really important it reframes issues that should matter to all Americans outside of partisan lens. And I think that's essential, especially the conversation around immigration. I wish Democrats has had as much gumption and empathy as this pope to talk about immigrants in a humane and loving way. Right. So hats off. Can you say hats off to the pope, Miters off to the Pope.

Dan Pfeiffer (82:41)

Either way.

Alex Wagner (82:41)

Oprah Pope Popra Popra 28 Pope Ra 28. Could we do it? Can you spin that? Can you make that happen?

Dan Pfeiffer (82:50)

Pope Roth I think that doesn't need to be spinning. That is. That seems like you nailed it, Pope.

Alex Wagner (82:54)

And Oprah can't lose.

Dan Pfeiffer (82:55)

All right. That seems like a great place to end it. That's our show for today. Alex will be back with a new show on Sunday, her first Sunday interview episode. Alex, who are you talking to?

Alex Wagner (83:04)

I am talking to the wise, provocative, profound writer, author, feminist, Roxane Gay, who has some really, I would say controversial but compelling ideas about whether or not civility has a place in American politics right now. So we're gonna be getting into that as well as a host of other things. I'm super excited. I didn't realize I had to work on Sundays here, but they say there's some free RX bars coming my way, so I guess I'm gonna get extra.

Dan Pfeiffer (83:36)

Snacks if you work on Sundays.

Alex Wagner (83:37)

Yeah.

Dan Pfeiffer (83:38)

Well, I'm looking forward to that episode. Thanks, Alex. Thanks for filling in for John. Thanks to everyone for listening. And Alex will be back in your feed on Sunday.

Ad Read Host (83:46)

If you want to listen to Pod Save America ad free and get access to exclusive podcasts, go to cricket.com friends to subscribe on Supercast, Substack, YouTube or Apple Podcasts. Also, please consider leaving us a review that helps boost this episode and everything we do here at Crooked. Pod Save America is a Crooked Media production. Our producers are David Toledo, Emma Ilic, Frank and Saul Rubin. Our associate producer is Farah Safari. Austin Fisher is our senior producer. Reed Churlin is our executive editor. Adrienne Hill is our head of news and politics. The show is mixed and edited by Andrew Chadwick. Jordan Kanter is our sound engineer with audio support from Kyle Seglin and Charlotte Landis. Matt de Groat is our head of production Naomi Sengel is our executive assistant. Thanks to our digital team, Elijah Cohn, Haley Jones, Ben Hefcoat, Mia Kelman, Kirill Pelaviev, David Toles, and Ryan Young, our production staff is proudly unionized with the Writers Guild of America East. Sometimes an identity threat is a ring of professional hackers, and sometimes it's an overworked accountant who forgot to encrypt their connection while sending bank details.

Dan Pfeiffer (84:56)

I need a coffee.

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Dan Pfeiffer (85:46)

Com.