An Obama Arrest a Day Keeps the Epstein Files Away

Summary

Pod Save America: "An Obama Arrest a Day Keeps the Epstein Files Away" – Detailed Summary

Release Date: July 22, 2025

In this intense episode of Pod Save America, hosted by Crooked Media’s Jon Favreau, Jon Lovett, Dan Pfeiffer, and Tommy Vietor, the hosts dive deep into the swirling controversies surrounding former President Donald Trump, Jeffrey Epstein, and recent immigration policies. The episode is packed with robust discussions, insightful analysis, and pointed critiques of current political maneuvers.

---

1. Trump’s Distortion of the Epstein Narrative

The episode kicks off with a heated discussion about Donald Trump’s latest attempts to manipulate the Epstein files narrative. The hosts highlight Trump’s use of artificial intelligence to create misleading content, including AI-generated videos depicting former President Barack Obama being arrested by the FBI in the Oval Office.

Dan Pfeiffer emphasizes the gravity of such actions:
"No one, especially the President, is above the law." ([04:49])

Jon Lovett reinforces this sentiment:
"No one is above the law." ([05:00])

John Favreau mocks the absurdity of the AI video:
"So for those of you who are just listening, that was Donald Trump and Barack Obama sitting in the Oval Office, and then the FBI comes in and they arrest Barack Obama, of course, while Village People is playing in the background." ([05:10])

2. Debunking Tulsi Gabbard’s Conspiracy Theories

The hosts critically examine Tulsi Gabbard’s recent allegations that the Obama administration engaged in a treasonous conspiracy to influence the 2016 election in favor of Donald Trump. They systematically dismantle her claims by referencing comprehensive investigations, including those led by Marco Rubio, which conclusively found Russian interference aimed at undermining Hillary Clinton and aiding Trump.

Dan Pfeiffer breaks down the flaws in Gabbard’s report:
"What she walks through in actually pretty good detail, is a good process... but then claims somehow that because the intelligence community didn't conclude that the voting systems were hacked, therefore this has all been a conspiracy by Barack Obama..." ([07:47])

Tommy Vietor adds context to the intelligence findings:
"We know that they did in part because the Senate Intelligence Committee, then led by Marco Rubio... determined Russia waged an aggressive effort to interfere in our election." ([10:15])

3. Trump’s Epstein-Related Legal Battles and Media Influence

The conversation shifts to the resurgence of Epstein-related scandals, particularly focusing on the Wall Street Journal’s revelations of Trump’s 2003 birthday note to Epstein, accompanied by an inappropriate doodle. Trump’s dismissive response and subsequent $10 billion lawsuit against the Journal are dissected as part of his broader strategy to deflect from mounting Epstein investigations.

John Favreau sarcastically comments on the lawsuit:
"Like such a funny amount, quadrillion dollars. Not to be outdone, the New York Times ran two big Epstein stories this weekend." ([20:20])

The hosts also discuss Paramount Globals decision to cancel Stephen Colbert’s Late Show, speculating on possible connections to Trump’s influence amidst larger corporate and political pressures.

Tommy Vietor expresses disbelief:
"I don’t believe for a second that it wasn't connected to quotes like what we just heard connected to trying to make Trump happy." ([38:42])

4. Immigration Policies and the Andre Hernandez Ramiro Case

A significant portion of the episode is dedicated to immigration issues, particularly the harrowing case of Andre Hernandez Ramiro, a Venezuelan citizen who was abducted by the Trump administration and sent to Seekot in El Salvador without due process. After 125 days in captivity, he was freed through a prisoner exchange involving Venezuela, El Salvador, and the United States.

Tommy Vietor shares his concerns:
"He sought asylum in the U.S. because of credible threats... Now he's back in the custody of the Venezuelan government and we don't know how they will treat him." ([48:51])

Jon Lovett provides an update from an interview with Lindsay Teslowski of the Immigrant Defenders Law Center:
"Andri does confirm our worst fears, which is that he was tortured in El Salvador... And it's clear that the Maduro regime prioritized not reuniting him with his mother, not allowing him to speak to his lawyers." ([69:48])

5. Expansion of ICE Detention Centers and Public Opinion

The hosts delve into the Trump administration’s aggressive expansion of ICE detention facilities, fueled by a $45 billion influx from Congress. Human Rights Watch reports detailing abuses at Florida detention centers are highlighted, revealing disturbing conditions such as detainees being shackled while eating and subjected to retaliation for seeking medical care.

Dan Pfeiffer critiques the administration’s tactics:
"They are trying to weaponize the strain they're putting on the system... They are just trying to ruin people's lives." ([19:57])

Public sentiment has shifted sharply against Trump’s immigration policies, with recent polls indicating majority opposition to mass deportations and the construction of new detention centers.

Tommy Vietor reflects on personal impacts:
"One of the vendors there is a relative who died during an ICE raid because he was trying to escape and he fell off a 30 foot roof and is dead now." ([54:46])

6. Supporting Immigrant Rights and Legal Defenses

The episode emphasizes the vital role of organizations like the Immigrant Defenders Law Center in fighting for the rights of deported individuals. Lindsay Teslowski urges listeners to document ICE raids, support legal defense funds, and amplify the stories of those affected to foster broader societal change.

Jon Lovett advocates for community involvement:
"We rely on volunteers to help us to go out... shining a light on the injustice is going to help us to fight back." ([81:33])

7. Hunter Biden’s Controversial Interview

In a surprising turn, the hosts address an extensive three-hour interview with Hunter Biden conducted by Channel 5. The episode critiques Hunter’s grievances against former Obama aides and media figures, portraying it as a misguided outburst lacking substantive critique of his own controversies.

Tommy Vietor shares his frustration:
"It's three hours of Hunter playing the victim, and he rages at Axelrod and Clooney... The problem was the voters." ([85:23])

Dan Pfeiffer comments on the electoral implications:
"The whole premise of 2024 was, yes, voters are saying that Joe Biden's age is his biggest liability... ultimately they did that, and everybody kind of collectively, ultimately were able to get Joe Biden to step aside and do the right thing for the country." ([87:56])

Conclusion

The episode of Pod Save America intricately weaves through major political scandals, exposing the manipulation of information, the erosion of due process in immigration policies, and the personal vendettas that continue to shape American politics. Through incisive dialogue and critical analysis, the hosts illuminate the challenges facing the nation, urging listeners to stay informed and actively participate in the democratic process.

---

Notable Quotes:

• Dan Pfeiffer: "No one, especially the President, is above the law." ([04:49])
• Jon Lovett: "No one is above the law." ([05:00])
• John Favreau: "So for those of you who are just listening, that was Donald Trump and Barack Obama sitting in the Oval Office..." ([05:10])
• Johnny Favreau: "Like such a funny amount, quadrillion dollars." ([20:20])
• Tommy Vietor: "He sought asylum in the U.S. because of credible threats... Now he's back in the custody of the Venezuelan government..." ([48:51])
• Dan Pfeiffer: "They are trying to weaponize the strain they're putting on the system... They are just trying to ruin people's lives." ([19:57])
• Jon Lovett: "We rely on volunteers to help us to go out... shining a light on the injustice is going to help us to fight back." ([81:33])

This comprehensive summary encapsulates the episode’s key discussions, offering listeners who haven’t tuned in a thorough understanding of the topics covered and the critical perspectives presented by the hosts.

Transcript

[John Favreau]

Today's presenting sponsor is Simplisafe Home Security. We talk a lot about transparency and fighting against shady deals. That's what we like about Simplisafe. No hidden fees, no long term contracts. Just highly effective award winning home security at a fair price. You all know this by now that John Lovett set up Simplisafe all on his own. Kept him and pundit safe for a long, long time. Most security systems only take action after someone breaks in. That's too late. Simplisafe's new active guard, outdoor protection. Helps stop break ins before they happen. If someone's lurking, agents talk to them in real time, turn on spotlights and can call the police proactively to turn crime before it starts. Simplisafe has been named the best home security system of 2025 by CNET. 4 million plus Americans trust SimpliSafe. It's ranked number one in customer service by Newsweek and USA Today. Monitoring plans start around $1 a day. 60 day money back guarantee. No contracts, no hidden fees. Just visit simplisafe.com cricket to claim 50% off a new system with a professional monitoring plan and get your first month free. That's simplisafe.com crooked there's no safe like Simplisafe.

[Jon Lovett]

Possibility means you have a chance.

[John Favreau]

Passion opens the door to all possibilities.

[Jon Lovett]

When I feel like anything's possible, I feel kind of giddy.

[John Favreau]

I want to be an astronaut, be.

[Jon Lovett]

An artist, be an actress to visit another country. All I need is a backpack and.

[John Favreau]

A pair of shoes and I'll find.

[Jon Lovett]

A way I'm able to do anything I set my mind to.

[Tommy Vietor]

I've never felt like more things are.

[Jon Lovett]

Possible than right now. In the right shoes, anything's possible.

[Tommy Vietor]

Dsw.

[John Favreau]

Countless shoes at bragworthy prices.

[Tommy Vietor]

Imagine the possibilities.

[John Favreau]

Welcome to Pod Save America. I'm John Favreau.

[Dan Pfeiffer]

I'm Jon Lovett.

[John Favreau]

Tom Evitor Lovett. Welcome back.

[Dan Pfeiffer]

It's good to be back.

[Tommy Vietor]

Missed a slow couple weeks.

[John Favreau]

Slow couple weeks.

[Dan Pfeiffer]

The I will. We'll talk about it.

[John Favreau]

How black was your news blackout?

[Dan Pfeiffer]

It was so the only. All I saw was every day. You were filming a new video about the Epstein files. And beyond that, I really didn't click in to learn more. I really tried to stay out of the news. I was like, what the fuck happened?

[John Favreau]

This is Pod Save Epstein now.

[Dan Pfeiffer]

Yeah, you guys went wall to wall.

[John Favreau]

We sure did.

[Tommy Vietor]

Got to cover the news.

[John Favreau]

Well, we have a big show in honor of your return. We're going to talk about the Venezuelans who Trump disappeared to Seekot, who have now been released in a prisoner exchange. We're going to talk about that. And you'll hear Lovett's interview with the lawyer who represents the now freed Andre Hernandez Romero. Lindsay Teslowski. We're also going to talk about Trump's continued crackdown on free speech with his new lawsuit against the Wall Street Journal, his fight with Harvard, and Paramount's decision to cancel the Late show with Stephen Colbert. Then at the very end of the show, we'll respond to some fan mail from friend of the pod, Hunter Biden. But let's start with Trump and his old friend Jeff. Two enigmas with wonderful secrets. Lovett. I think the most succinct way to explain what you missed these last two weeks is that Pam Bondi. Right. When you left, Pam Bondi said they won't be releasing any more Epstein files. And now Trump is posting AI videos of the FBI arresting Barack Obama. So you're all caught up. A bunch of stuff happened in between, but it's like the little. It's the domino meme.

[Dan Pfeiffer]

Right, Right. Well, I just. You can't say that something's on your desk for review and then say it doesn't exist.

[Tommy Vietor]

Right.

[Dan Pfeiffer]

It's tough because what was on your desk?

[John Favreau]

Files. Files, but not the files that we can see.

[Dan Pfeiffer]

But she said they were theirs. You was gonna put them in there.

[John Favreau]

And she looked at them and said, mm, mm, no, just says Trump all over them. Yeah. Right. So Trump's latest attempt to change the Epstein narrative involved a spree on Truth Social, as it often does, Posted more than 20 times on Sunday night alone that included saying Adam Schiff should go to jail. That's a whole nother story you missed. He also threatened to tank the Washington Commander Stadium deal if they don't change their name back to the Redskins. He also wants the Cleveland Guardians to go back to being the Indians. Didn't want to leave them out, by.

[Dan Pfeiffer]

The way, I found. I didn't know that. I didn't know that name team the Guardians. No. Yeah. They changed their name from the Indians to the Guardians.

[John Favreau]

Yeah. A couple years ago.

[Dan Pfeiffer]

Wow.

[John Favreau]

He also posted a three minute video of various stunts that began with a woman in a bikini throwing a snake.

[Tommy Vietor]

That one was just like. You know when people sometimes post, like, best vine compilation. Yeah, it was just like that.

[John Favreau]

There was no captions. No, no.

[Tommy Vietor]

It's just like, weird.

[John Favreau]

I don't know what was going on there. He posted an AI photo of Barack Obama and various Obama officials, including our own Ben Rhodes in jail. And, and then he posted this AI generated video of Obama being arrested by the FBI in the Oval Office.

[Dan Pfeiffer]

No one, especially the President, is above the law.

[Jon Lovett]

No one is above the law. No one is above the law.

[Hunter Biden]

No one is above the law.

[Jon Lovett]

Oh, son of a bitch.

[John Favreau]

So for those of you who are just listening, that was Donald Trump and Barack Obama sitting in the Oval Office. And then the FBI comes in and they arrest Barack Obama, of course, while Village People is playing in the background.

[Tommy Vietor]

Ca I guess.

[John Favreau]

And yeah, that's what's happening there.

[Dan Pfeiffer]

I was in the Duomo. That's the big, big cathedral in Milan. It's a lot of Duomos. There were these kind of ancient inscriptions of like Latins, like they were hard to see in the wall. And So I used ChatGPT. I said, what does this say? And it gave me these amazing translations of these Renaissance era Latin phrases, which helped me appreciate more what I was seeing.

[John Favreau]

Were you surprised that they said Epstein didn't kill himself?

[Dan Pfeiffer]

Yes. On this day, St. Bartholomew made clear that Epstein didn't kill himself. All I'm saying is, man, there are some pretty bad uses of AI too.

[John Favreau]

Yeah, that was one of them.

[Tommy Vietor]

Tough one.

[John Favreau]

So this Obama conspiracy actually launched on Friday when Tulsi Gabbard, who is for some reason our Director of National Intelligence, unspooled a bunch of red string to allege that Obama and his administration engaged in a, quote, treasonous conspiracy to, quote, subvert the will of the American people, end quote, by telling the public that Russia tried to interfere in the 2016 election by disseminating hacked emails. And they also conducted an influence campaign to undermine Hillary Clinton and help Donald Trump. A conclusion reached by everyone who's ever investigated this for the last 10 years, including the special prosecutor Trump appointed and the guy who's currently serving as his Secretary of State and National Security Advisor, Marco Rubio. But here's Tulsi Gabbard trying to explain this conspiracy, which she alleges is new to Maria Bartiromo on Sunday.

[Jon Lovett]

Now Director of National Intelligence Tulsi Gabbard, revealing what this audience has known all.

[John Favreau]

Along, creating this piece of manufactured intelligence that claims that Russia had helped Donald Trump get elected contradicted every other assessment that had been made previously. So the effect of what President Obama and his senior national security team did was subvert the will of the American people, undermining our Democratic Republic and enacting what would be essentially a years long coup against President Trump. Accountability action, prosecution, indictments for those who are responsible. Anyone want to unpack why this Allegation is completely fucking insane.

[Dan Pfeiffer]

Sure. So if you. I went and looked at the Gabbard, the report that they put out, and having seen all these stories about what she's alleging and what is shocking when you look at what's actually laid out and what makes it such a hard story to explain to people, is there's nothing to it. There's nothing to it. What she walks through in actually pretty good detail, is a good process. A process by which the intelligence community looked at what happened in the 2016 election and came to the conclusion that Russia did try to influence the outcome, that it wasn't just to undermine democracy, but to help Donald Trump win, that it did this through means of a mix of COVID and public efforts, but that while it did steal voter registration information from certain places, it didn't ultimately hack any voting systems or affect any voting tallies. And the intelligence community reaches this conclusion, and the Obama administration puts that conclusion forward and actually does something far more responsible than Donald Trump ever did, which is not say what would have been the most fun and easy political point, which is actually the election was stolen and Russia stole the election, but was very careful. Right. She lays that out in great detail, but then claims somehow that because the intelligence community didn't conclude that the voting systems were hacked, therefore this has all been a conspiracy by Barack Obama to commit some kind of a coup after the fact, even though Donald Trump became president. I don't like it, doesn't mean it doesn't make any fucking sense.

[Tommy Vietor]

We all keep having a version of this conversation which is like, am I missing something? Because I just feel like this just doesn't make any sense at all. It'd be like they're saying the. Yeah, they're releasing new intelligence that shows Russia didn't launch a cyber attack on our election infrastructure that altered the outcome. Which is what the Obama administration said, what they said. And they're trying to make it sound like that's a smoking gun that proves that the Russians didn't interfere in the 2016 election. But as you mentioned at the top, we know that they did in part because the Senate Intelligence Committee, then led by Marco Rubio, now the Secretary of State, conducted a three year investigation that determined Russia waged an aggressive effort to interfere in our election. They said that Russia didn't change vote totals, but they probed voter infrastructure in all 50 states, including voter registration databases, election websites, and they did a social media campaign to influence public opinion. And we also know that in 2022, Yevgeny Prigozhin a now dead Russian oligarch, because Putin put, like, a grenade on his plane or something.

[Dan Pfeiffer]

It's like being an Iranian nuclear scientist.

[Tommy Vietor]

Yeah. He confirmed on the record that they interfered. He said, gentlemen, we have interfered.

[John Favreau]

We.

[Tommy Vietor]

We are interfering and we will interfere. And he was indicted in 2018 by the Trump administration. And Prigozhin was sanctioned in 2018 by the Trump administration. Was Mnookin. Was Stephen Mnookin, the Treasury secretary at the time, in on this? It's crazy.

[John Favreau]

The weird thing is I feel like a moron even getting into the details here. I know, but if you read Tulsi's report, which I encourage everyone to do, the report doesn't refute the idea that Russia interfered with the election. Basically, what happens is. So the election happens right after the election. The intelligence community assesses that Russia was involved in hacking the DNC and hacking those emails and sending them to WikiLeaks as a car vote to disseminate the hacked emails, right? And they also, by the way, they say right after the election, we don't think the election was hacked in any way. Right Then.

[Dan Pfeiffer]

Being responsible, Being responsible, incredibly responsible.

[John Favreau]

But then around in December, they're gonna have, like, a briefing with Obama, right, where they tell them, okay, well, we don't think Russia hacked the actual election. We've determined this. But they have this meeting, and then after the meeting, they're like, well, but they did conduct these influence operations, right? Which is the hacking and dumping of the DNC mails and the social media campaign, which comes a little bit later. And so then Obama orders an intelligence assessment, right, that to figure out how Russia went about conducting this influence campaign. And this is the January 2017 Intelligence Community Assessment that this is the basis for Tulsi's whole thesis. She thinks that this intelligence assessment was made of manipulated intelligence for some reason we don't know. Even though this intelligence assessment was called coherent and well constructed with no political bias by Marco Rubio and his committee. And then it also said there was specific intelligence reporting confirming that Putin directed the operation to help Trump. This is like what Marco Rubio found of this intelligence assessment that they're now saying is the basis for the treasonous coup.

[Dan Pfeiffer]

Two other points from that Republican assessment of the Intelligence Committee's findings. In all the interviews of those who drafted and prepared the Intelligence Committee assessment, the committee heard consistently that analysts were under no politically motivated pressure to reach specific conclusions. All analysts expressed that they were free to debate, object to content, and assess confidence levels as is normal and proper for the analytic process. The other part of this that I think is important is the reason the administration put out this report was not because they were trying to undermine Trump as he becomes president. It was because this is an ongoing threat. They were worried about Russia using these tactics in elections around the world. They're worried about what would happen in future American elections. They were worried about the fact that, yes, in this case, Russia hadn't altered vote totals or they didn't find evidence of that, but they did, as Tommy pointed out, hack a bunch of systems to get a bunch of information and voter registration data. It was dangerous. It's an ongoing threat.

[Tommy Vietor]

Like, if anything, having a review and having a meeting is like literally the bare minimum. If anything, I might argue that Obama didn't do enough to sound the alarm in advance of the election and maybe prevent or like, make people more aware of this. But then the election happens. They want to assess what's out there. Clearly they're having to talk to confidential sources within the Russian government. That's not like an easy thing, you know, just like lob in a call. So it takes some time. So they created a record of it, both classified and unclassified. And there were tons of interest from Congress, so they had to speak to that, too. But like, this is a pattern. We've also seen Trump go after the security clearances of, you know, officials he doesn't like. They ordered, he ordered DOJ to investigate Christopher Krebs, who is the guy who ran his Trump cybersecurity and infrastructure security agency during the 2020 election. Cuz Krebs said it was secure. So this is just, you know, they're just trying to rewrite history.

[John Favreau]

Yeah, I hate making people go back to season one here, but, you know, the theory that the right and the Trump people have pushed for a long time now is you. The Mueller investigation came from the Steele dossier. And the Steele dossier was cooked up by the Clintons and the dnc, and then Obama is now part of it too. If we remember, the Mueller investigation wasn't triggered by the Steele dossier. The Mueller investigation was triggered by George Papadopoulos talking about how Russia had a bunch of emails from Hillary Clinton that it was willing to disseminate for free to help the Trump campaign. So when you get that intelligence, maybe you launch an investigation. And that's how the whole thing started.

[Dan Pfeiffer]

The other part of this, too is this is signing, signed off on by every member of the, every Republican and Democratic member of the Intelligence Committee at the time, as you said, including Marco Rubio. But also some even more pro Trump people at the time who saw not just the public reports that we saw, but a ton of classified material that proved this and made it. Obviously, these guys would love to throw cold water on this. Even at the time they wanted to say that there was no evidence here, they couldn't do it. It was so clear that even the Republicans on the committee had to say, this body of evidence supports the substance and judgments of the ica.

[John Favreau]

You know what I was hoping for today, guys? I was hoping for one of those Oval Office pool sprays where, like, it's Trump and some poor world leader and then JD Vance is next to him, Marco Rubio is next to him, and some reporter gets the question to Marco Rubio about this. It'll happen because he's already sort of melting into the couch anyway. Like, do you think he would have had to. Just what would he have had to do? Maybe, maybe. Or maybe Trump would have had him right there. You know, that's it. 86'd him right there.

[Dan Pfeiffer]

I do a version of the treason's.

[John Favreau]

Coming from inside the White House.

[Dan Pfeiffer]

They have spent years attacking this president. They've claimed, you know, they came years claiming that his election was illegitimate. They refused to say that he was a legitimate president. But here we are all these years later and blah, blah, blah.

[John Favreau]

I noticed J.D. vance, the chief intellectual, Zamboni, he hasn't had anything on this one. I wonder if he's workshopping his long tweet on this one.

[Tommy Vietor]

It's just so dumb. You have four years to figure this shit out, guys. You were in the White House for four years. Like, you could have done this.

[John Favreau]

Then you pointed out you appointed your own prosecutor to look at this. He didn't find anything. Anyway, thoughts on the video? How seriously should we take the. The threat to indict and arrest Obama?

[Tommy Vietor]

I mean, my first reaction to it was, Jesus Christ. He must have just gotten a really bad briefing on all the times he's in the Epstein files. You know, that is clearly like the genesis of all of this. Like, they have been talking openly about how Trump needs to go on offense. They need some chum in the water for the right wing. Steve Bannon said as much. But, you know, so for Obama himself, like, for everyone involved, this is actually very scary. Like, it's not the AI video. It's like this idea that Tulsi Gabbard, she wouldn't say what the crime she's alleging was committed was, but she's saying there's a referral to doj to the FBI. And these things can take on a life of their own. Especially now in Trump 2.0 because you have Cash Patel and Pam Bondi who are just in those jobs because they're Trump sycophants. The FBI and the DOJ have been purged for loyalty of all the kind of people down below them. And so who knows, who knows what will happen? Like, I don't think there's any legal risk for Obama. Clearly no crime was committed. And also the Supreme Court has told us that presidents are kings now and they can do whatever they want if it's an official duty. So he's fine. But for everybody else, like, they get swept into an expensive, time consuming, scary investigation. It sucks.

[John Favreau]

Mike Davis says no. He says because Obama is covering up a criminal conspiracy, that doesn't count. That's what he said. I don't put anything past them in terms of intent, what they want to do or are willing to do. I just think that in addition to the FBI and the Justice Department, you need to get a judge to sign off somewhere on warrants, on indictments. You need to have a grand jury doing it. Like, I think these allegations would be laughed out of every fucking court in the country. I'm not even sure what an indictment would look like, what it would say, what DOJ would argue to a grand jury here. Like, I know, I just.

[Dan Pfeiffer]

Yeah, I know.

[John Favreau]

What I'm more scared about though, I should say, is when you run around saying that the former president and his staff are guilty of treason or treasonous conspiracy, there's a bunch of fucking violent nut cases out there who I'd be very scared of. General Flynn today was saying that how the FBI should raid Obama's house and was like talking about the neighborhood in D.C. where he lives and stuff like that. And I know this isn't the first time, but like eye for an eye shit, it's that kind of shit that worries me more than the actual legal stuff.

[Dan Pfeiffer]

Yeah, I mean, these are short term thinkers. Pam Bondi, that's why she'll say the list is on my desk and there's no list. They're all kids that ate the marshmallow, you know, but like, that's a weakness, right? It means that you don't actually ultimately worry that they'll be able to put together anything that would stand up in court, but that's also been their danger. And so you end up in a situation which just to get to the next day, they put out videos to try to throw chum in the water. But they don't know what the charges are. But then the next day, they know what the charges are, but they can't substantiate it. Well, the next day, yeah, the grand jury signed off, but obviously it'll never pass muster with a judge. And the next day, all of a sudden, a jury is impaneled, and maybe this ultimately leads to nothing, because there's nothing there. Even if they did what Tulsi is claiming they did, it's not clear to Tommy's point what you'd ever charge people with. But regardless, they didn't. The evidence is pretty clear. But that doesn't mean you can't ruin people's lives. And because they only think one day ahead, they'll deal with the consequences later. Like, that's what worries me about how they've done basically everything over the last six months.

[Tommy Vietor]

And they view it all as payback.

[Dan Pfeiffer]

Yeah, that's the other part of it, which is, on some level, Donald Trump was indicted. He was a president who was indicted. That is an ego wound to him that can't close unless he also figures out some way to go after Barack Obama or Joe Biden or their families or Bill Clinton or whoever. And that will never stop.

[John Favreau]

I think, from their point of view, they think that Trump being indicted was just completely manufactured based on absolutely nothing, and that if you could get Trump indicted for absolutely nothing, of course they can get Obama indicted for absolutely nothing. I think what they're gonna find out, just like the EOs banning the law firms and other stuff, is some of the stuff they've tried to do is so fucking ridiculous that it has been laughed out of a clock.

[Dan Pfeiffer]

But this is like the. Like over years, right? Most of this shit maybe ultimately gets shut down, but enough of it gets through. Right? And in the intermediate. That's all. It's just. That's the point.

[John Favreau]

But I'm saying some of their legal cases are stronger.

[Dan Pfeiffer]

Yes, for sure.

[John Favreau]

So, obviously, this is Trump's attempt to distract from Epstein, which got kicked up again late last week after the Wall Street Journal published Trump's 2003 birthday note to Epstein, complete with a doodle of a naked woman where the president's squiggly signature doubles as pubic hair. Lovely. Trump has called the whole thing fake, saying, I never wrote a picture in my life.

[Tommy Vietor]

What a quote.

[John Favreau]

I never wrote a picture in my life.

[Dan Pfeiffer]

I never wrote a picture in my life.

[John Favreau]

He's now suing Rupert Murdoch's journal for $10 billion.

[Tommy Vietor]

That's it. That's it.

[Dan Pfeiffer]

Whatever number it doesn't matter.

[John Favreau]

Like such a funny amount, quadrillion dollars. Not to be outdone, the New York Times ran two big Epstein stories this weekend. One chronicling Trump's friendship with Epstein over the years. That includes plenty of creepy details, and another about the publicly known instances of Trump's name appearing in the legal record of Epstein's crimes, including. Before we get into it all, love it. You know, we haven't had a chance to talk to you about really any of the Epstein scandal, but especially the wonderful secrets letter. How much were you following all this and what do you think of this whole thing now that you've been able to catch up?

[Dan Pfeiffer]

Yeah, so a couple things.

[John Favreau]

One, Epstein didn't kill himself.

[Dan Pfeiffer]

Epstein did not kill himself. No. It is amazing how much in every aspect, no matter what the issue is, Donald Trump represents the absolute worst of the thing. His base claims he's there to fight. Right. Whether it's the swamp or corruption or in this case, the fact that he is more intertwined with Epstein than we even knew before we had seen the pictures and it was always a joke. But the amount of detail that has just come out in the last two weeks about Donald Trump's relationship, this incredible, disgusting and weird letter from Donald Trump in this bound book which they're claiming is fake. The Journal knew they'd get sued. Yes. This thing is so completely fucking buttoned up. And like, what? Somebody went back in a time machine and stuck it in there. What? They put lemon juice on it in the toaster to make it look old. Like, what are you talking about?

[John Favreau]

I was saying this to love it this morning, but I was like, you can say that it, the, the, the card doesn't sound like Donald Trump, but also try to imagine the other scenario where it was completely made up. Who makes up, like a weird two act, one act play like that between decades ago, Trump and Epstein in the.

[Dan Pfeiffer]

Casey.

[John Favreau]

It's just too weird to have been made up. It's not d enough to have been made.

[Tommy Vietor]

Rupert Murdoch doesn't want to deal with this. It's the last thing the Murdoch family wants to deal with. They didn't want to publish this. They were so pissed they had to publish this.

[Dan Pfeiffer]

He wants to be on a yacht. Yes. The other part of it too is just the, like the kind of being in a situation where it's like, hey, like, yeah, this guy was fucking heinous. I want to know whatever documentation the government has, we should get out as much information as possible. But like, a lot of the people, like, a Lot of it has been reported. We know a lot of information, and a lot of the people that know what happened are alive and around and can be asked, like, the proof isn't in paper. Like, the proof is in the stories told by women and girls about what happened. Like, it exists. Their word matters. It exists in the world. Like the proof isn't in a government document. The stories are out there. And gettable, the other part of it, too, just when you see that book of letters and, you know, I guess Trump has a letter in there. Bill Clinton apparently has a letter in there. A bunch of people have letters in there. You go back to Acosta, who ultimately became Trump's Labor Secretary, doing this sweetheart deal for Epstein. Or the fact that Pam Bondi didn't prosecute him in the years when she was Attorney General of Florida, and many say that she could have. And the fact that even after those pleas that Epstein originally, those pleas to lesser charges that Epstein ultimately made when he was in Florida to get out of federal prosecution, even in the years after, he was still treated as a kind of acceptable person by so many people. And you do see that, like, underneath the conspiracy is a truth, which is that, like, rich people, people who achieve this level of wealth, the wealth itself is seen as validating that how can this person be unacceptable? They have so much money, they've accessed the boat next to mine. They're in the suite next to mine. They're on the island next to mine. They must be legitimate. The money makes it so. But, like, over and over again, we have seen that that money, whether it's Epstein or Bill Cosby or Harvey Weinstein or so many others, like, that was just not true. They were monsters, that's all. That's what I had. That's what I have on that.

[John Favreau]

Yeah. Our bet for most of last week was that Trump's name is more likely than not in the Epstein files. And there's a letter from Dick Durbin's office to Kash Patel claiming they were told that huge numbers of FBI personnel were tasked with reviewing the files and flagging any mention of Trump. Tommy, what's your sense of where the story is right now? Do you think Trump's base keeps up the pressure and demands more info? Or has the Journal story and the new Obama conspiracy, you know, reunited MAGA and reminded them of their true enemies?

[Tommy Vietor]

This sort of post Journal story narrative that, aha, maybe this will be good for Trump is like, we just spent two weeks talking about this man's connections with the most viral, vile, pedophile in public life in America, like, what the fuck are you talking about? Yeah, Trump. Right. We don't like Trump to stipulate it, but where he's brilliant as a politician is like marketing and media and controlling a narrative and also like the constant feedback loop with his base. And I think on both counts, we've never had him, seen him do a worse job. Since January 6th, I would argue. And I've gone from thinking that Epstein was a cynical thing that people like Cash Patel and Dan Bongino talked to because it got people mad and got them to click into their shows and that the real conspiracy was what Lovett just talked about. That was like hiding in plain sight to thinking Trump is absolutely covering something up. Because they were friends for two decades. They ran in the same social circles, both in New York and Palm Beach. They were photographed together constantly. There's video of them ogling women together. There's testimonials from Epstein's victims about incredibly creepy behavior of, like, Epstein walking in Manhattan with a woman stopping by Trump's office, acting disgusting around these young women. Trump flew on Epstein's plane. One of Epstein's victims was recruited while working at Mar A Lago. There's the quote that I feel like I have to read every time we talk about this from New York magazine in 2002, where Trump said, I've known Jeff for 15 years. Terrific guy. He's a lot of fun to be with. It's even said that he likes beautiful women as much as I do. And many of them are on the younger side. No doubt about it. The New York Times reported over the weekend that Trump hosted a calendar curl competition in 1992, and the only other guest was Jeffrey Epstein.

[John Favreau]

That is the strangest calendar. Calendar girl competition, but only one other guest trick.

[Tommy Vietor]

Yeah, so, like, yeah, it's like, insane when you say it out loud. It's insane. And so, like, you're seeing these kind of narratives, like, oh, well, the polling's not moving from his base. And, like, would I love to see his base running from him in huge numbers? Sure. But I think it's far more likely that the people who are disgusted by this are like, the first time voters, the low propensity voters, the people that decided to vote for Trump because they heard him on Theo Vaughan and Joe Rogan and they thought they'd be their guy who fought the corrupt establishment, and now he's covering up for them. Like, that is the whole ball game.

[John Favreau]

We've been at this for 10 years, guys. There is no One thing that's going to bring down Trump and looking at this through that prism is just a mistake anyway. But, like, is it damaging in some ways? Has he lost the trust of some of the influencers who helped get him elected and maybe some of the voters? Very possible, no doubt. Are others back on board? Yeah, for sure. Will some of them be more skeptical going forward, even if privately of trusting Trump? Yeah, perhaps. And then there's others who, you know, are just, we're just looking for an excuse to get back on the Trump train because they do hate media and Democrats more and they want to be team players. Like, that's just how it's going to be.

[Dan Pfeiffer]

Donald Trump is very good at claiming victory and blaming other people for failures. And he is currently the president, right? And he promised things, right? And he promises to deliver things. And sometimes he can claim he's done it even if he hasn't claims great successes. Other times during his first term and after, he was able to blame the deep state or Democrats or what have you, right? But now he's the president again and he kind of asserted that he was gonna make up for all the mistakes or kind of lack of progress during the first time. And now he's got the right team. There's no deep staters in the Cabinet now, Right? They're all loyalists in the Cabinet now. There's no old guard trying to hold him accountable anymore. And yet he's not able to deliver for them on this. And he doesn't really have an answer as to why that's the problem. He can't tell them why because it's Pam Bondi at doj, right? It's Cash Patel at the FBI. Like, these are the loyalists. He did it. He got the team he wanted. He, like, took over the Republican Party. And, like, nobody's getting there. Nobody's getting. Nobody's getting finished.

[John Favreau]

There's always a deep state somewhere.

[Tommy Vietor]

There's a deeper state.

[John Favreau]

It's always deep state of clutch.

[Dan Pfeiffer]

It's always a deeper state. It's deep state's all the way down.

[Tommy Vietor]

Kind of just like double stamp. Something you said, John, which is according to this Dick Durbin letter, Pam Bondi ordered the FBI to put a thousand personnel on reviewing Epstein files, 247 for like, months.

[John Favreau]

Good thing nothing else is going on.

[Tommy Vietor]

The FBI New York field office got sucked into this. You're like, yeah, exactly. Like, we, we don't talk about the opportunity cost for a thousand FBI analysts working on this. Like, they're not digging into white collar crime or extremist groups or espionage or whatever. Like someday some shit is going to happen and we are going to learn that people working on that task force or whatever it was, or pull off the case to flag Donald Trump's name in a set of files that they then didn't release.

[John Favreau]

And then our government will say that that's a fake story and that actually it was the Democrats that did it.

[Dan Pfeiffer]

Here's what has no one told Pam Bondi about control F. I don't understand what the going through the document is. I don't understand that story. I don't understand it.

[John Favreau]

I don't either. Well, I'm sure the FBI will be prompt in their reply to Dick Durbin. Positive America is brought to you by Helix. We love Helix mattresses. I think I got a couple in my house. Charlie's got a. We got a Helix Kids mattress. We got one in our guest room. I know you guys have one. Tommy?

[Tommy Vietor]

Yeah, we have one in our guest room. And everybody who sleeps there loves it, says it's one of the most comfortable beds they've ever slept in.

[John Favreau]

Helix knows there's no better way to test out a new mattress than by sleeping on it in your own home. That's why they offer 100 night trial and a 10 to 15 year warranty to try out your new Helix mattress. Everybody's unique and everyone sleeps differently. That's why Helix has several different mattress models to choose from, each designed for specific sleep positions and feel preferences. So how will you know which Helix mattress works best for you and your body? Take the Helix Sleep quiz and find your perfect Mattress in under 2 minutes. Your personalized mattress is shipped straight to your door free of charge. So just go to helixsleep.com crooked for 27% off site wide. That's helixsleep.com crooked for27% off site wide. Make sure you enter our show name after checkout so they know we sent you helixleep.com Crooked I've never felt like this before.

[Jon Lovett]

It's like you just get me. I feel like my true self with you. Does that sound crazy? And it doesn't hurt that you're gorgeous. Okay, that's it. I'm taking you home with me. I mean, you can't find shoes this good just anywhere. Find a shoe for every you from brands you love like Birkenstock, Nike, Adidas and more at your DSW store or dsw dot com.

[John Favreau]

All right, let's talk about our President's mission to defend free speech in an age of cancel culture. The Justice Department was in court on Monday to defend Trump's attempt to terminate $2 billion worth of contracts with Harvard for scientific and medical research. Because the White House doesn't care for the political views expressed by the faculty and students, it did not go well for the Trump administration. The DOJ lawyer tried to argue that the government is simply choosing not to, quote, fund research at institutions that fail to address antisemitism to its satisfaction, end quote. But the judge asked what the relationship is between anti Semitism and cutting off cancer funding and said, quote, you're saying you can terminate a contract even if the reason you're giving is a violation of the Constitution. I don't think you can justify a contract action based on impermissible suppression of speech. So the judge, the judge didn't issue a ruling. It sounds like she tipped her hand there. Obviously a long way to go. Possibly this gets adjudicated by the Supreme Court at some point, but do you guys think this will at least stiffen the spines of what Bloomberg News is calling, quote, an increasingly vocal group of professors who say Harvard should reach a deal with Trump? And do you, do you at least understand or sympathize with their argument?

[Dan Pfeiffer]

Look, the case was always ludicrous. It goes to what we're talking about. The case is fucking ludicrous. It is such an obvious violation of the First Amendment, not just according to liberal judges, but according to conservative and moderate judges. You can't use the money you're giving an institution as a kind of a cudgel to get people to say things you want them to say or not say things you don't want them to say that have nothing to do with the research at hand. Cancer research and student protests have nothing to do with one another. It is brazenly unconstitutional. If they settle, they are conceding in some way that there was a case there. That's what will happen. Trump will say he won and then he won't give up. There is no justification for settling with Donald Trump. You have to fight. Why do you exist? You've been here for 400, Harvard. You've been here for 375 some odd years. You gotta stick around and fight. You can't make it through four years of Donald Trump. It's ridiculous.

[John Favreau]

Well, I think what they're worried about and why they asked the judge again to at least make the ruling by September is that's when they have to, like, reapply for the like. There's some of the professors that are worried are the ones who are like, in engineering and medical sciences and stuff. Cause they're like, we will at some point run out of funding and we won't be able to make the decisions to continue the research we're doing if they just drag this out on and on and on and on.

[Tommy Vietor]

Totally. But, like, if Harvard can't fight this fight, no one can. If Harvard can't fill the financial gap with some funds from a gigantic endowment, then no one can. And so I'm sorry, guys, this sucks. It's a travesty if this research is cut off. But you guys have to fight this fight. And because, like, you're our nerd champion right now, we just need to.

[Dan Pfeiffer]

I hate rooting for Harvard.

[Tommy Vietor]

Battle for this stink.

[John Favreau]

Our nerd champion.

[Dan Pfeiffer]

It stinks.

[John Favreau]

Well, and I saw, remember there was a story, like, a month ago that, you know, they were thinking about making a deal and the Trump administration, like, went after them again. And some people then were saying, like, actually, Harvard's going to make it. They're going to do a deal, but they're going to make it look like they want, you know, they want to, not Trump. And I'm like, I just think once you're getting into it, who's got the biggest megaphone and ability to shape the story of what the settlement would look like? Like, you're losing because Donald Trump's gonna always win that fight.

[Dan Pfeiffer]

The biggest corporate law firms thought they could do that. Yeah, they thought they could make that. Look, no, we made. We actually got one over on Trump. You look like fucking idiots. After Columbia makes a deal, right? They think it's a good deal. Got the best they could. What does. What does Trump say next? I'm gonna put you in receivership.

[Tommy Vietor]

You know, lie about the deal and.

[Dan Pfeiffer]

Then lie about the deal and then lie about the deal. It's just lies. Like, there's. We're not getting through the Trump era without some pain. It's just that's how we have to fight these things. There's no. You can't capitulate. If they do, then every else will fall next. So, yeah, yeah.

[John Favreau]

One place that's quite eager to do whatever it takes to make Trump happy. Paramount Global, the parent company of cbs, which desperately wants the no longer independent FCC to approve its merger with Skydance. So when CBS announced the shocking decision that it's canceling the Late show with Stephen Colbert in May of next year, people were understandably skeptical of the company's explanation that the decision was purely a financial one and not related to, quote, the show's performance content or other matters happening at Paramount. The announcement also came a few days after Colbert said this about paramount settling Trump's 60 Minutes lawsuit for $16 million.

[Hunter Biden]

As someone who has always been a proud employee of this network, I am offended and I don't know if anything will ever repair my trust in this company. But just taking a stab at it, I'd say $16 million would help. Now, I believe this kind of complicated financial settlement with a sitting government official has a technical name in legal circles. Big fat Bribe. And some of the TV typers out there are blogging that once Skydance gets cbs, the new owner's desire to please Trump could put pressure on late night host and frequent Trump critic Stephen Colbert. Okay, okay, but how are they going to put pressure on Stephen Colbert if they can't find him?

[John Favreau]

As for Trump, he posted on Truth Social, I absolutely love that Colbert got fired, adding, I hear Jimmy Kimmel is next. What do you guys think of the cancellation and the precedent it's setting?

[Tommy Vietor]

I mean, we are obviously very biased. Like, Stephen Colbert was unbelievably generous to us. And also I just think he's like, a truly good person in a media landscape where that is often not the case. And I think, I'm guessing that the worst part about this for him is not just that he's losing his job, it's that the show's going away. Like, his team that he loves is all gonna lose their jobs. And this is a guy who likes. Paid for them to. Kept them on payroll during COVID and stuff.

[Dan Pfeiffer]

Right.

[Tommy Vietor]

So it's like, it's. It's devastating.

[John Favreau]

He's got the best team. Amazing staff is amazing. They're so talented.

[Tommy Vietor]

Yeah. And like, look. Yes. There's of course, some truth to the financial argument CBS is making. Like, consumption habits are changing. Everyone's cutting the cord. They're moving to streaming. Ad revenue is plummeting for these shows. But I'm not pretending, like, I'm not naive about how tough it is in media right now, but the show led the ratings in the time slot. Like, if you wanted to save it, you'd find ways to cut costs. You don't just kill off the show. And they just didn't. And so I don't believe for a second that it wasn't connected to quotes like what we just heard connected to trying to make Trump happy. As this Paramount merger with Skydance maybe happens. And we can't view this in a vacuum. Like, Facebook caved, ABC caved, CBS caved. Like, our heroes are now Rupert Murdoch's lawyers over a News Corp. And like, that's not a good place to be.

[John Favreau]

Yeah. What do you think, Lovett?

[Dan Pfeiffer]

It's very sad. This is to me like a signal example of these multiple pressure points. One is from the right kind of undermining and attacking these institutions. One is the business and economics of television disintegrating before our eyes, and that is real. And then the other is the fact that these networks were slowly gobbled up by big corporations because they saw it as a good complementary business. They saw it at prestige play, they saw it as a way to promote other parts of their business. And there weren't a lot of downsides because as much as people talked about the danger of corporate ownership of the media, that was long before someone like Donald Trump actually made good use of his power to kind of put his thumb on mergers and lawsuit threats and all the rest. And so now you're in a situation where all these kind of pressures are hitting at the same moment. And so like is paramount is a $30 billion a year company. They're saying that the Late show is losing $30 million, $30 million. A lot of money.

[Tommy Vietor]

A lot of money.

[Dan Pfeiffer]

But it is like a tiny amount of money compared to the overall revenue of this corporation. They don't make institutions like the Late show anymore. You don't make a brand like that anymore. And so even if you can defend it on business grounds, and maybe you can, and even if you can somehow say, well, you can't prove that they did it because of the Skydance merger, it's still an indictment of a corporation unable to make see the long term value of an institution like this. And so it just makes me sad because, look, the world will be fine without a late night show. I'm not gonna. There's a lot of places to get the news, a lot of places to get late night jokes, whatever.

[John Favreau]

A lot of places to make fun of Trump. Fine. And you can get away with, of course, of course.

[Dan Pfeiffer]

And so. But it is just one more right here. But it is just one more kind of shared institution crumbling.

[John Favreau]

That's what makes me really sad.

[Dan Pfeiffer]

Three of these forces. And yes, you're right, the streaming has changed things. Paramount has a streamer, right? It has a. The Late show is huge.

[Tommy Vietor]

The guy's the face of the network. You could figure it out.

[Dan Pfeiffer]

The fact that they chose not to figure it out, I think lends credence to the fact that this was because you can lose money on something that is valuable to you, but you're not gonna lose money on something that you view as a pain in the ass. And if you don't have the values or stomach for a fight, you'll give up.

[John Favreau]

I buy all the financial explanations and sort of the larger direction of where the industry's going, but I'm willing to believe that the Colbert's politics and the politics of the show were like a tiebreaker for parents, which is like, we're losing money on this. But if it was someone who never pissed Trump off, if it was someone who was making the right laugh a lot at something, then maybe they're like, eh, we'll lose the money and it's not a big deal.

[Dan Pfeiffer]

Or look, this thing is down 30 this year. It'll be down 50 next year. We're gonna kill it. Do it now. It'll help us. Whatever. We have no idea what happens behind it.

[John Favreau]

But it's just like, look, I mean, how long is. We've already seen ABC settle for the Stephanopoulos thing? How long or is Disney, how much do they care about Jimmy Kimmel show? Right, that Disney owns that? And you know, like, you can do this with all of these different shows. And look, this is. It's harder for live shows like this because a lot of the other content on the networks can at least be repurposed for streaming. Or like, there could be like a back catalog of shows that you rewatch. You're not gonna rewatch live shows. It's another sad indicator that we are just like losing the monoculture. Yes, right. It's basically now just sports and Taylor Swift is like what we're down to. And you know, late night shows were a big part of the one thing that people were watching and coming together. And now that you don't have that, it just fucking sucks.

[Dan Pfeiffer]

I was reading Amusing Ourselves to Death by Neil Postman, which is an old book, but incredibly still relevant. Like shockingly relevant. But he talks about how sometimes the focus on censorship misses that. Really the ongoing challenge is noise. Right. So it is wrong that the fact that Trump doesn't like Stephen Colbert would have an impact on a decision Paramount would make. That is wrong and bad and we should call it out and they should be ashamed. But the problem isn't the censorship of one show. The problem is the kind of noise that fills in behind. And that, to me, is what makes this like. It's a small blow at our collective ability to have places where there's like a shared culture, a shared sense of history. Like, the Late show is an institution. It ties parents and Their kids. And it's just another one gone.

[John Favreau]

And, you know, Stephen Colbert is like one of the best entertainers and humans we have in the country. And I just want him to be able to, like, I feel good about his chances. Like, he's gonna be fine, but I just really hope he does something else that is like, big and entertaining.

[Tommy Vietor]

Yeah, he should either run for president or he should launch his own production company and figure out a better version of the show. For the digital.

[John Favreau]

Yeah, for sure.

[Tommy Vietor]

So.

[John Favreau]

Because I don't want to see.

[Tommy Vietor]

Those are the two options.

[John Favreau]

I don't want to see Stephen Colbert going. That's my opinion.

[Dan Pfeiffer]

I don't think he will.

[John Favreau]

Two quick things before we go to break. Quick reminder. Love it or leave it will be at Just for laughs in Montreal on Thursday, July 24th. Jesus, you're leaving the country again already.

[Dan Pfeiffer]

I know. I'm out again. I'm going to Canada. I'm scouting out new places to live. I'm not. I'm not.

[Tommy Vietor]

They're very mad. You should do a field piece about all the ways that US products are being replaced by Canadian stuff. There's an app you can download.

[Dan Pfeiffer]

Oh, really?

[Tommy Vietor]

It's like Maple Leaf themed.

[John Favreau]

Don't make fun of them too much up there. They're going through some tough stuff.

[Tommy Vietor]

They're real pissed.

[Dan Pfeiffer]

Hey, listen, we all have the same. We have the same problems. Katherine Cohen, Mary Beth Barone, Zack zucker, Roy Wood Jr. Jean Marco Cerezes. We have an amazingly packed show at the Just for Laughs comedy festival. Go to crooked.com events. We just put out this full lineup.

[Tommy Vietor]

So there's Maple Scan, the Maple Scan app. You need that to know how Canadian a product is.

[John Favreau]

Okay, here's what the script says. Here it says, tommy, we didn't want you to feel left out. We've got brand new Dodgers inspired pod save the world tees and stickers in the crooked store now.

[Tommy Vietor]

Well, now I just feel like I got pick lax at recess.

[Dan Pfeiffer]

This is the worst.

[John Favreau]

Tommy. No, nothing is about me.

[Tommy Vietor]

John.

[John Favreau]

John. Nothing.

[Dan Pfeiffer]

One time, I was. One time.

[John Favreau]

John, just read the rest of the script and shut the fuck up.

[Dan Pfeiffer]

John, do your job. In, I think third grade, we were picking teams for the color war at the end of the year and the two, you know, the two sports kids were somehow captain. Of course it's an old. Maybe that wasn't happening. I assume that doesn't happen anymore to children, but maybe they still do allow the kids to rank each other. But we went back and forth and then it was down to me and one other boy whose name I remember, but I'm not gonna say because I don't know what his life is now.

[John Favreau]

Jeff. Jeff.

[Dan Pfeiffer]

Nope. It was Jeff. Yeah. No, so. But we're. But anyway, it's down to the two of us. It's down to the two of us. And he looks over and realizes that he's about to be picked last for a team and just bursts out crying. And I was like, why are you crying? I'm not crying now. You're making me feel bad. I felt fine about it. I knew I was. Why did. Hey, man, you play the clarinet? Scott. You don't think you were gonna be last? I KN I was going to be last. What are you surprised? Have you seen yourself? Your glasses are an inch thick.

[John Favreau]

That hits close to home for me, too.

[Dan Pfeiffer]

I'm a tiny, fat little. I don't know how to dribble.

[John Favreau]

Okay, well, now we're. Anyway, the merch purchases go a long way to supporting what we do here at Crooked, which I guess is that. Shop [e-mail] store Sweet Guy.

[Dan Pfeiffer]

Sweet guy.

[John Favreau]

Foreign is brought to you by ZipRecruiter. Typically, you don't associate speed with quality. For example, you wouldn't expect a gourmet meal from a fast food drive thru.

[Tommy Vietor]

Whoa, whoa.

[John Favreau]

I know. It's like, where are we going? Depends. Similarly, tried those McDonald's fries. Yeah. I mean, you can go to. You can go to Duncan's Drive through. That's for sure. Good stuff. Similarly, automated transition tools often sacrifice accuracy for speed. Well, there's an exception to this unwritten rule. If you're hiring, you can find candidates fast who are also extremely qualified for your job. Just use ZipRecruiter and right now you can try ZipRecruiter for free at ZipRecruiter.com Crooked ZipRecruiter's advanced resume database allows you to proactively find and connect with qualified candidates in minutes, significantly reducing your waiting time. Want to meet with a standout candidate? You can unlock their contact info instantly. 320,000 new resumes are added monthly, which means you can reach more potential hires and fill roles faster. It's no wonder ZipRecruiter is the number one rated hiring site based on G2 experience, hiring speed and quality. With ZipRecruiter, four out of five employers who post on ZipRecruiter get a quality candidate within the first day. And if you go to ziprecruiter.com crooked right now, you can try it for free again. That's ZipRecruiter.com Crooked ZipRecruiter is the smartest way to hire.

[Jon Lovett]

What does possibility mean to you?

[Dan Pfeiffer]

That's a hard question.

[Jon Lovett]

Something that you can strive for, that I'm able to do anything I set my mind to. You're confident in yourself and you believe in yourself.

[Dan Pfeiffer]

Stuff that you could achieve.

[Jon Lovett]

I feel it's Sarah. Anything is possible when you're more confident.

[John Favreau]

Shoes are a huge part of that.

[Jon Lovett]

They are the most important part of my style.

[Dan Pfeiffer]

You can like express yourself in the right shoes.

[Jon Lovett]

Anything is possible.

[Tommy Vietor]

Dsw countless shoes at bragworthy prices. Imagine the possibilities.

[John Favreau]

All right, as usual, we got a lot of immigration news. In just a minute, you'll hear Levitt's conversation with Lindsey Tuslowski from Immigrant Defenders Law center who's been representing Andre Hernandez Ramiro. If you don't remember, Andree is the Venezuelan hairstylist who was kidnapped by the Trump administration and sent to Seekot without due process. But after 125 days in captivity, he's free. Over the weekend, there was a three country prisoner swap between the Maduro regime in Venezuela and the Trump regime in the U.S. venezuela released 10Americans being held there. And in exchange, the Venezuelans like Andrii, whom the Trump administration had disappeared to El Salvador, were released from SICOT and put on a plane to the country they fled. We'll get into Andriy's case in more detail with Lindsay. But how are you guys feeling about the prisoner swap?

[Tommy Vietor]

I mean, on a human level, I'm just, I'm happy that he's out of this just hellhole, but I just. The man was fleeing Venezuela because he was persecuted there. I mean, he sought asylum in the U.S. andre specifically sought asylum in the U.S. because of credible threats or what were deemed to be credible threats by I assume some immigration official in the US of persecution because of his sexual orientation and political beliefs. And now he's back in the custody of the Venezuelan government and we don't know how they will treat him. Hopefully Maduro thinks, okay, the best PR for me is being treating these men well. But Maduro is a fucking idiot and a bad guy and I don't trust him. I don't trust Bukele and El Salvador. I don't trust the Trump administration. And so three authoritarians, three awful, awful, awful governments. And so, you know, it's enraging like this didn't have to happen. There's these men did not have to be sent to Sukkot. It never made sense. It doesn't make sense? It's a stain on our history. It also shows what a lie it was when the Trump administration was saying, oh, send them down there, we don't control them anymore. You know, it's government. El Salvador now is their custody. We can't control them. That was obviously bullshit when they said they couldn't get Kilmar Abrego Garcia back. And you know, it's just, it's, it's just horrific.

[John Favreau]

But the lies really bug me the most. It's like they lied about them all being trend Aragua, lied about the tattoos, lied about their criminal records, lied about whether they were in this country legally lied to the courts, defied the courts and then sent them to a fucking to be tortured. A dictator's foreign gulag to be tortured. Yeah, right. About that too.

[Dan Pfeiffer]

I mean even the reports, even that Bukele was like, hey, you told me you were sending the worst, worst.

[Tommy Vietor]

Yep, yep, he was.

[Dan Pfeiffer]

And now. So they've now been sent to Venezuela. You know, I talked to Lindsey about it and she's getting harrowing reports about what Andre experienced when he was in sicat. He's now a tool of the Maduro regime. And you know, you can hear this in the interview, but she talks about the fact that, that he has, as of our conversation, she had not yet been able to make contact with Andri. Andre had not yet been able to speak with his family, but had been made to sit for a propaganda video on behalf of Maduro to release about his horrible treatment at zcot. So he is still a pawn for these three governments. And the Trump administration then says as part of this arrangement, which actually is not. We're just. It was between El Salvador and Venezuela, we're still not in control of anything. But we have assurances that we can bring anyone back from Venezuela to the US for court proceedings, which is strange because are those criminal proceedings? Are those asylum proceedings? Which means are you now saying you have a deal with Maduro, that he'll send someone back to the United States because they need to escape from Maduro, which is just a kind of of like brain bending fucked up situation that maybe even undermines their case for asylum, which I'm not sure would necessarily be lost on any of these people though, who knows? And so it's just this Kafkaesque ridiculous situation where these people were tortured and to what we talked about earlier because they had a fucking idea and then wanted to execute it, didn't think about the consequences, rounded up people at random to hit some artificial deadline and quota and then lied about it for fucking months.

[John Favreau]

And by the way, it's not over in terms of like what the Trump administration is doing with detainees and people that they deport. Like they, you know, they're looking for the go ahead. And so far the Supreme Court has given it to them to send more people to third party countries, to third countries and not third countries like past administrations did. Third countries like fucking South Sudan and all kinds of horrible war torn places where they could be, you know, tortured like in El Salvador. So it's still a very, very troubling issue. Also, the Wall Street Journal has a pretty chilling how ICE is rushing to spend the extra $45 billion they just got from Congress, which includes what internal documents call hardened soft sided facilities.

[Tommy Vietor]

That euphemism just reminded me why I hated working in government so much.

[John Favreau]

Like tent camps?

[Tommy Vietor]

Yeah. Like when they would call, like they talk about hard landings, but no, no. Crashing. Crashing a helicopter.

[John Favreau]

Hardened soft side tents. Yeah, hard. At military bases and next to existing ICE facilities. They're hoping to get detention capacity up to 100,000 from 40,000. Apparently this is even causing concern internally because of how vulnerable they are to flooding and high winds. Even worse news, Human Rights Watch put out a report on Monday alleging abuse at three Florida detention centers since Trump reentered office. At one Miami facility, people were denied food for hours. When the food finally came, one detainee said they were forced to eat with their hands shackled behind their backs while kneeling like dogs. Others described getting slapped in the face, retaliation for seeking medical care in crowded cells where detainees routinely have their hands zip tied and their faces shoved to the floor. DHS spokesperson Tricia McLaughlin reacted to Journal story by saying that everyone in detention centers like these is there by choice because they chose not to self deport. So you don't self deport. You are forced to the ground to kneel with your hand shackled and eat like a dog. A reminder that Trump's immigration policy is becoming more unpopular by the day. The new CNN poll shows 55% of people think Trump has gone too far in his deportations. That's 10 points higher than back in February. 57% oppose building more detention facilities and 53% oppose increasing ICE's budget. Too late for that. A CBS poll from over the weekend basically echoed those same results Back in June. More people thought Trump was prioritizing dangerous criminals. Now those numbers are flipped. So there's been a few stories lately about some Republican politicians starting to push the administration to exempt undocumented immigrants in agriculture. And hospitality. We've talked about that a little bit. Notice just ran a piece about Republicans advocating for immigrants in their districts who've been detained. I think even Chip Roy was like, oh, no, I got a guy, He's a good guy. He's a legal resident. He's just trying to get legal status. Yeah, Chips got caught up in this.

[Tommy Vietor]

We know.

[John Favreau]

Yeah. Do you think these stories and poll numbers have the potential to move Trump on this issue at all? Or is the best we can hope for just trying to, to keep these stories in the headlines?

[Tommy Vietor]

Trump, no voters. Yes. I mean, the, the farmer's market Hannah and I go to on the weekends. One of the vendors there is a relative who died during an ICE raid because he was trying to escape and he fell off a 30 foot roof and is dead now.

[John Favreau]

This is the high main carpet.

[Tommy Vietor]

Yeah, it fell 30ft off the roof of the building. So, I mean, we knew, look, obviously a lot of the Sukkot transfer and the sending people to a gulag in El Salvador, that was Stephen Miller and these sickos trying to, to deter people from coming to the US by scaring them and making them think it would be hell. What Trisha's quote tells us is the next step is treating people in U. S. Custody so horribly that they give up their asylum cases and just leave, you know, even when they have credible claims. And so I think like, a lot of these stories kind of shock the conscience. Like the Republicans seem to think Alligator Alcatraz is some big win for them. Kind of think it's just sickening and gross. And there are the practical matters of what happens when there's a, A, a hurricane. You know, when you have a bunch of people in the swamp in a tent, like, what are you going to do about it? They can just die. You're going to leave them there. Just on the polling, I mean, his approval on immigration is down 10 points from March. Almost 60% of independents oppose the deportations, 58% oppose the way he's using detention facilities. And then there's just like 70% of the people in that poll say Trump is not focused enough on lowering costs. And I do think part of that is like Alligator Alcatraz is the kind of stuff they want to talk about. That and tariffs, 60% oppose tariffs. Like, it's just, there is a bit of a meta thing happening where it just feels like he's focused on the wrong stuff and the underlying economic circumstances are not really improving.

[John Favreau]

Yeah, I think they're also now suffering. The administration, public relations wise from the fact that there's all these viral videos of people who are clearly not criminals or people who are just like American citizens, legal residents getting swept up in all these raids. And all the Trump administration is doing is like, putting out their fucking, you know, deportation porn videos of the worst of the worst, you know, getting arrested. And there's not enough of those because there's not enough dangerous criminals getting arrested versus all the videos that are circulating on TikTok, on Twitter, on everywhere about. And on people's local news stations, too, about all these people getting swept up who are in their community, who they know are legal residents or people who've been here for decades.

[Dan Pfeiffer]

Yeah. The other part of this, too, is so they're ramping up the construction of these facilities. They are firing immigration judges. As we know, Trump stopped a bill that would have increased the number of immigration judges to help deal with the backlog. And so they're not only putting people in these terrible circumstances, they're trying to build a system where the strain becomes. They can weaponize the strain on the system so that people are held for weeks, even if it's unjustly. Right. Where a lawyer can't find where their clients are because it was done in such a rapid way. And there are so many cases. And so, like, that is part of this. They are trying to weaponize the strain they're putting on the system. Yeah, like, oh, we're going to exempt hospitality. Oh, we'll exempt farm workers. Trump can move on this because he did. He got the call and he said, whoa, whoa, whoa. Like, we're not supposed to go after. We're not trying to shut down the farms. Like, whoa, whoa, whoa. Like, that's not what this is about. The hardened criminals. These people have been here for a long time. And then, of course, so that comes.

[John Favreau]

He got slapped on the wrist by.

[Dan Pfeiffer]

Cnn, Stephen Miller, and then all of a sudden, everything is back on. He is responsive to pressure on this. These are all deporting a bunch of people that work in agriculture, work in construction, work in hospitality that will cause jobs to not be done, costs to go up, businesses to suffer, the economy to suffer. That will have consequences. Donald Trump is allergic to those consequences. He is aware of the pressure he's under to deliver on some of these, on prices. He can lie about it. He can claim he's doing it. He can blame Joe Biden all he wants, but ultimately, he will be held responsible. So I do think he is like, like, kind of beholden to pressure on these issues, but at the Same time, like, you know, there's Stephen Miller waiting in the wings to walk it back.

[John Favreau]

And despite the fact that this administration is filled with some of the biggest buffoons you'll ever meet, Stephen Miller is quite smart and knows exactly what he's doing and has been spending a couple years trying to learn from his mistakes in the first term. Mistakes being they didn't deport enough people.

[Tommy Vietor]

Yeah.

[John Favreau]

And so Tom Holman too. Yeah. And so when like the Agriculture Secretary or, you know, Joe Rogan in a dinner with Trump is like, hey, exempt the hospitality workers, that's fine in the moment, but Steven Miller's gonna like, come in later and figure out how to get what he wants.

[Dan Pfeiffer]

But. So I think that's the question, right? Yes, I totally agree with that. But like, this is the beginning. They are right now starting to ramp up deportations at the exact moment the country is turning on this precise policy and when the economic consequences will make worse his biggest political liability. And so, yes, you know, the Ag Secretary calls, says, I'm hearing from all these businesses, you gotta do something. Trump sends out a post, Stephen Miller walks it back. Steve Miller and Noem can go meet with the ICE people, whatever. But eventually, like at some point, right, like that pressure starts to maybe out, that wave can crest and cover Stephen Miller too, maybe.

[Tommy Vietor]

Yeah, only if it goes to Trump directly, though. I think that is the interesting part, which is that, like, he is clearly like the lead staffer out of all of them. And so, like, if the Ag Secretary is like going through him to get to Trump to try to make his case, I'm sure Steve Miller's like, yeah, yeah, we'll get back to you on that. You know.

[John Favreau]

Yeah, you know, if Trump starts seeing footage on television of like people being really upset about that pr. Yeah, right. Bad PR he doesn't like. So that's, that's a key. Okay. When we come back, Lovett's interview with Lindsay Toslowski of the Immigrant Defenders Law Center. This podcast is sponsored by Squarespace. Squarespace is the ultimate all in one platform for boosting your online presence and achieving success. It offers all the necessary tools to promote your services and manage payments in one place. Build a professional website to highlight your offerings and draw in clients. Squarespace provides an extensive collection of expertly crafted, award winning website templates suitable for all purposes and categories. Squarespace domains makes it easy to find the best name for your business at one fair, all inclusive price. No hidden fees or add ons required. Make smarter business decisions with Squarespace's intuitive Built in analytics tools, review website traffic, learn where to focus engagement and track revenue from bookings, invoices, or product sales. All from one place. And with Squarespace email campaigns, all the tools you need to engage clients, promote your services, and grow your business are built in.

[Tommy Vietor]

Yeah, I just use Squarespace to build my only Dan's site. Oh, it was really great. I got all my only Dan's merch.

[John Favreau]

Yep, I've got your only Dan's. You can insert your only Dan's live feed. It's in there, right?

[Tommy Vietor]

Yeah, there's a lot of insertion of live feeds. There's the only Dan's subscription community for some spicy bonus stuff.

[John Favreau]

Oh boy.

[Tommy Vietor]

But thanks. I mean, I never would have been able to do it without Squarespace.

[John Favreau]

No. Head to squarespace.com for a free trial. And when you're ready to Launch, go to squarespace.com crooked to save 10% off your first purchase of a website or domain. That's squarespace.com crooked.

[Stephen Colbert]

The world is on the brink. Wars, contentious elections, disinformation spreading at warp speed, and Donald Trump at the center of all, all of it. But what does it mean for the rest of us? Every week on Pod Satheworld, Tommy Vitor and I cut through the noise to explain how global power is shifting. No jargon, no homework, just clear, honest conversations about what's happening and why it matters. From breaking news to long, simmering international conflicts, we dissect it all with critical analysis and some jokes that will surely embarrass our children one day. Tune in to POD Save the World every Wednesday, wherever you get your podcasts or catch it on YouTube.

[Dan Pfeiffer]

Joining us now is Lindsay Teslowski, attorney at the Immigrant Defenders Law Law center, which represents Andre Romero, among others who were kidnapped by the Trump administration. We now know Andre was among the hostages who were freed from Sakat in El Salvador and sent to Venezuela. Lindsey, the last time we spoke, the Trump administration had refused to even provide proof of life. That's where we were up until Friday. I know you were not informed that Andre was part of this exchange, but were able to ID him from photographs of Andre coming off the plane based on his tattoos. The same tattoos for which he was seemingly kidnapped. But what have you learned about Andre's circumstances since the transfer Friday? And how are you feeling?

[Jon Lovett]

So, yeah, a lot has happened, even just in the last few minutes. We learned of his return to Venezuela through media reports and then saw him disembarking that plane. Since then, we have not been able to speak with him. I know his family has briefly heard from him in a quick phone call, letting them know that he should be released either later today or tomorrow. And then in the last few minutes, I was sent a video from Venezuelan state TV that has Andri doing a testimonial on camera. And I will just say that some of what he describes as what happened to him in El Salvador is absolutely horrific, describing torture and sexual abuse. But what is also horrific is that he hasn't spoken to his lawyers yet. He hasn't been able to reunite with his family yet. And the authoritarian regime that he was returned to has him making a video speaking about extremely sensitive and. And horrible things that have happened to him while in custody in El Salvador before he's had a chance to even comprehend what has happened to him. And it's just an ongoing. It's the reason that we were fighting for him not to be returned to Venezuela. We, of course, are glad that he is out of that torture hellhole in El Salvador, but his safety and his freedom is still very questionable. So we haven't spoken to him. So I can't say too much. But what has happened is really just another chapter in this ongoing travesty of justice.

[Dan Pfeiffer]

So you now have Andriy in the custody of the Maduro regime due to a deal between Trump, Bukele and Maduro. The exchange agreement, at least publicly, seems to allow for Venezuelans to come back to the US if ordered by a court. That's, of course, like, deeply strange because in some cases, it would be ordered by a court for asylum proceedings due to fears of the Maduro regime, which is now saying it wouldn't stand in the way of that kind of a transfer. There's a lot of, like, contradictions inside of this. How do you even begin to figure out how to represent your client in this moment? Like, what are you. What are you trying to figure out? Like, what are your questions?

[Jon Lovett]

Yeah, I mean, our number one question when we are, for the first time in 128 days, able to speak with Andri, is what does he want now and what is possible? Because while the Maduro regime may have agreed that part of this exchange, if that is even true, we don't know. We haven't seen any of this. But. But if they did agree that if a court orders that some of these men can come back to the United States, that they will let them go, we have no idea whether that is actually true, whether the Maduro regime would allow that, and we have no idea whether Andri would want to come back to a place that sent him to four months of torture in El Salvador. So there are a lot of questions. Once we are able to speak with him. We're going to start with, for the first time, being able to ask him, what do you want? And how can we help you get what you want? Because for 128 days, he has been incommunicado. We have no idea what he wants to do at this point, and we're really going to start there. But in terms of legally, this situation is beyond an unchartered territory. There has been an agreement between essentially three strongmen who have come up with a prisoner swap that involved our client that he did not consent to. We're assuming that has landed him back in the place where he fled from initially. He fled Venezuela back in 2024 because of persecution that he suffered at the hands of the Maduro regime because of his sexual orientation and because of his political beliefs. He came to the United States to seek protection. He was denied due process. He was not given a day in court to make his asylum claim. And he was essentially sent back to the very place he fled with a stopover, to be tortured for four months in El Salvador. This is just beyond a travesty of justice at this point. It's something that, as the facts come out, I think will be a shame on our asylum system, on our government. And what happened to him in El Salvador and what happens to him next falls squarely at the feet of President Trump and Secretary Noem for everything that they had to do with sending him back there.

[Dan Pfeiffer]

Is there any more that you can tell us about what you've just seen from Andrei? I know. It's all I know. You need to be careful about even accepting it at face value, because it is coming via Maduro's regime. But what have you learned about Andre's treatment? What have you learned about his current condition and mental health?

[Jon Lovett]

What I can say about the video that I saw, which was on Venezuelan state tv, it's essentially a propaganda video. But Andri does confirm our worst fears, which is that he was tortured in El Salvador, that he was sexually abused in El Salvador. And, you know, in terms of his mental health, I can say that he does not look well in that video. And it's clear that the Maduro regime prioritized not reuniting him with his mother, not allowing him to speak to his lawyers that have been vocally advocating for him nationally and internationally for four months. But they prioritized making that video, which I cannot imagine would be in the, you know, in the best interest of anybody who has just gone through what has to be one of the most traumatizing experiences I could ever imagine.

[Dan Pfeiffer]

Why do you think this exchange happened at all? How much do you think the Trump administration felt like this had become both a political problem and a consuming legal problem?

[Jon Lovett]

I think it's because of the pressure that all three governments, frankly, were probably feeling. The Trump administration, because we were able to lay bare what they did. They sent innocent men with no due process to a place that is notorious for torture. They sent them to a gulag in El Salvador without giving them their day in court. And even the courts here in the United States recognized that their due process was violated when that happened. Their human rights have been violated, we now know by these stories of torture that are coming out. So I think the Trump administration was feeling that pressure. I think the Bukele administration was feeling pressure to be rid of this problem because they probably initially were told that they were receiving people who were members of Trende Aragua and assumed that they would be able to sell that to the Salvadoran public as a furtherance of their strongmen policies. But ultimately, by Andri's story and by so many other stories that came out, that many of these men had absolutely no criminal history, the vast majority of them, that they were not given their day in court, that no court ever said they were members of Trende Aragua. As that became clear, I think this was a problem for certainly President Trump and President Bukele. And you know, of course, being an authoritarian regime, the Maduro government is going to use this to further their, you know, his personal ambitions, to further the fact that he can play the hero in this story. But the fact is that many of these men were in the middle of seeking asylum, fleeing the very country they were just returned to.

[Dan Pfeiffer]

Is there hope, like a dark hope, that this attention, the fact that they view Andri and others as politically useful as part of a kind of propaganda effort that that will afford some protection?

[Jon Lovett]

There's definitely a hope that the millions of people that have come to know Andri's story, who are continuing to follow it, we have received so many inquiries from around the world about his well being just since Friday, since he disembarked from that plane. We hope that the continued pressure for his safety and for justice for Andrit will provide some mechanism to keep him safe. And we will continue to fight for justice for Andri. Because being returned to the place that you fled initially with no due process is not justice. And we committed to fight for justice from the moment we took his case. And we will continue to fight for justice for him, for our seven other clients who also were returned to El Salvador, and for all of the men who were putting put through this absolutely horrific experience. That really is a shame on our government, on our ability to help people who are seeking protection.

[Dan Pfeiffer]

404 reported last week that there were dozens of people on those flights to seek out that were not included in the list of names put out by dhs. What was your reaction to that report and how does it comport with your experience in representing these members?

[Jon Lovett]

Our experience in representing these men has been chaotic. They in the immigration courts where we are representing them, their cases have gone into all different sorts of postures. It seemed at times that ICE wasn't even able to confirm that some of our clients were in El Salvador to this day. They never would admit in court where they went when they left ICE custody. We had other cases like Andries, where they admitted right away that he was in El Salvador and then moved to dismiss his case, saying he was no longer in the United States. And we even had a case where a judge removed someone because they were not present in court, ordered them deported, knowing that they had been sent to El Salvador. What you know, the 404 report and all of these people who we didn't even know were there is, you know, furthers our knowledge that this was a chaotic operation, that this was not taken by the Trump administration in the way that you would expect something that has human beings lives hanging in the balance to be taken. It was done rashly. There was not a legal basis to invoke the Alien Enemies act, and certainly not one because we are in a peacetime. So it's not a lawful use of the Alien Enemies act. But also because. Because none of these men, it appears, were members of Trend Aragua to begin with. So to me it just shows how much chaos is happening within ice and that due process and fundamental fairness is something that the Trump administration sees as an impediment to their plans for mass deportation. And unfortunately, people like Anthri and and stories that we may never know of others who were in the same predicament are examples of that.

[Dan Pfeiffer]

So you have the Wall Street Journal reporting that temporary detention facilities are being ramped up by ICE because it's just received all this money. Meanwhile, the Trump administration is firing immigration judges. Trump stood in the way of a bill that would have increased the number of judges to help with the backlog they claim to want to resolve. They are weaponizing the strain they're putting on the system. They are trying to overwhelm the system. What does that mean for how you need to represent clients? What does that mean for getting people due process or even finding out what happened to people?

[Jon Lovett]

Well, I can add a few other examples to that list that you just said. One of them is that we have started receiving cases that we had closed in 2009 and 2010 are being recalendered in the immigration courts. So these are cases that were dismissed by the government as not priorities for prosecution, you know, over a decade ago. And the Trump administration is recalendering them, which to me indicates that not only do they, you know, not care about the backlog because they are firing immigration judges, but they are trying to add to it. They are trying to break the system. They are trying to make it so that it is impossible to give people due process as deportation defense lawyers. We will continue to show up in court, we will continue to file habeas motions to get these cases out of the immigration courts, which are not truly independent, and into federal court so that we can make sure we get justice for our clients. Another example of this is arresting people who are coming and showing up for their immigration court hearings, hearings, people who are already in proceedings, people who have already filed for asylum, people who are waiting for that case to be adjudicated in court, are being arrested and put into expedited removal, which is essentially a way to remove them from the United States with little to no due process at all. The Trump administration, over and over in all of these examples, finds giving people the ability to be heard and court, which is, you know, not just something that we do to be nice, but is a fundamental constitutional right, they find that inconvenient and they are looking for ways, whether it's firing judges, whether it's, you know, making the system so backlogged that it can't possibly work to deny people that due process right across the board. And, you know, as lawyers, it's why we are filing lawsuits. We have a lawsuit around the LA raids here in collaboration with many partners that is really saying we will hold you accountable if you violate people's constitutional rights as way of your plans for mass deportation. We will hold you accountable and we will make sure that we see you in court, and we're going to continue to do that in immigration courts and federal courts, because the level of unlawfulness by the Trump administration as they try and carry out these plans is stunning. And it should be something that does not just impact Immigrant communities. It shouldn't just be something that strikes fear in our communities here in Los Angeles. It should be something that every single American is worried about, because if they can do this here, if they can do something like this here, they can violate the constitutional rights of all of us across the country, and everyone should be worried.

[Dan Pfeiffer]

So public opinion to that point has turned on the Trump administration's crackdown just as it's now ramping up. What would you like to see our audience do to help to support what you're doing, to be helpful just in their communities, whether it's through raising awareness or actually trying to do like get involved in preventing raids and all these other actions?

[Jon Lovett]

Well, I think it's really important that people understand their rights to document what is happening in their own communities. We've seen a lot of this in Los Angeles, where people are actually actually recording when ICE goes out and conducts raids. That is vitally important. That actually can become evidence in lawsuits where we show here in Los Angeles, we have been able to get a temporary restraining order because we were able to show rampant racial profiling happening when they would go into Home Depot parking lots and literally just sweep up every single person who is brown, people who are speaking Spanish. That is, you know, an absolute example of racial profiling. And some of the information that we have from those lawsuits comes, yes, from the people who are arrested, but also from the bystanders who stand witness to what is going on. We also remind people that, you know, recording is legal and you should do it from a safe distance. There are lots of mutual aid organizations that are helping and organizing people to do this, this in their communities. We're part of the LA Raids Rapid Response Network that does this work. And we rely on volunteers to help us to go out. When we receive calls that something that there is ICE enforcement activity happening, they can go out and respond to that. So people should certainly be getting involved with those efforts in their communities and also supporting legal defense organizations around the country, Immigrant offenders, we operate here in Southern California, but there are many amazing organizations across the country that do this same work. It's so important to support these organization support bond funds so that we can get people out of ICE prisons and back with their families. And really, once we're able to get people out of ICE prisons and they're fighting their case from the community, they have a much better chance of finding representation and also of being able to be successful in their case. So I would say all of those things and, you know, really talking about these stories, Andre's, story particularly touched the hearts of so many people because they could see themselves in him. They knew that if it could happen to Andri, it could happen to any of us. There are so many stories like that follow. You know, organizations that are sharing these stories on social media and share them because shining a light on the. The injustice is going to help us to fight back. It's going to inspire others in your communities to do the same. And it's just so important for us to lift up those stories of our neighbors, our friends, our families who are being directly impacted.

[Dan Pfeiffer]

And I do think it's fair to say that the attention on Andri and others who have been so mistreated has been part of why public opinion has turned. Lindsay, I know this is still a ongoing and harrowing situation for Andre, and it sounds like you're just beginning to learn just how much he's been through. But I just want to say thank you for everything that you've done, because if people hadn't paid attention, there'd be no reason for this exchange to have happened and these people could have been lost forever. And I hope it's heartening when Andre ultimately learns how many people were fighting to make sure that he got free. And he is right now yet to learn how much attention his case has gotten. And so I know he may have a long road ahead, but he's only in a better circumstance, if still a dangerous one, because of you and Immigrant Defenders and all the others. So thank you so much and keep us posted and we'll try to keep in contact about Andri's case and so many others. Thank you, Lindsey.

[Jon Lovett]

Thank you so much.

[John Favreau]

All right, last thing before we go. We're recording this on Monday, July 21, the one year anniversary of Joe Biden dropping out of the presidential race. Happy anniversary, guys.

[Tommy Vietor]

Thanks.

[John Favreau]

Seems like there are still some feelings out there, people working through some feelings. Here's a selection from a three hour interview the Internet outlet Channel 5 conducted with Hunter Biden.

[Hunter Biden]

You know what George Clooney did because he sat down, I guess because he was like given the blessing by the Obama team or the Obama people and whoever else. And David Axelrod and whoever the fuck else is to go. Okay, yeah, you know what? We're gonna. We are going to insert our judgment over yours. We, me and James Carville, who hasn't run a race in 40 fucking years. And David Axelrod, who had one success in his political life, and that was Barack Obama. And that was because of Barack Obama, not because of fucking David Axelrod. And David Plouffe and all of these guys and the Pod Save America guys who were junior fucking speech writers in, you know, on Barack Obama's Senate staff, who have been dining out on the relationship with him for years.

[Dan Pfeiffer]

First of all, that's insulting. John, you were chief speechwriter.

[John Favreau]

I was chief speechwriter. I was the only one in the Senate office.

[Dan Pfeiffer]

And imagine. And imagine. It must be just so hard for Hunter Biden to watch all these people dining out on somebody's name. You know, it's tough.

[John Favreau]

Tommy, you listened to all three hours. What did you. What did you find?

[Tommy Vietor]

Yeah, I listened to all three hours. I don't know why I did that. I have a lot of feelings about it, in part because I had. I interviewed Hunter on this show, And I think 2021 about his book, and I. You know, I kind of feel like I got duped now. Like, I. I have a lot of empathy for anyone who's. Who's dealt with addiction issues. But let's just go to starting with this interview. Like, I get why he's mad. If my dad went through that, I'd be mad, too. He gets to air his grievances when he wants. He found a very credulous partner to give him three hours. The guy literally says to him at one point, I'm on your team. That's a quote. And at one point, the guy also says, nothing wrong with making some money here and there when they're talking about his business dealings. Like, Hunter's also.

[John Favreau]

Right. Like, speaking of dining out. Yeah. There's.

[Tommy Vietor]

There's not enough. Like, one interesting point Hunter makes. There is not enough scrutiny of, like, the origins of the laptop story. Like, this laptop gets to this technician, to Rudy Giuliani, and no one kind of questions that.

[John Favreau]

Right.

[Tommy Vietor]

Some fair points. Okay. But mostly, I guess.

[Dan Pfeiffer]

I mean, sure, I know.

[Tommy Vietor]

I know. But mostly it is three hours of Hunter playing the victim, and he, like, rages at us, and he rages at Axelrod and Clooney. But the problem was the voters.

[John Favreau]

I know.

[Tommy Vietor]

And they never addressed that. The voters thought Joe Biden was too old. And when. When it comes to the attacks on Hunter himself, like, okay, let's just. What if we just stipulate for the hypothetical.

[John Favreau]

Like.

[Tommy Vietor]

Like, yes. Okay. All your business dealings were above board and legal. All your paintings were purchased by art lovers who loved the product and didn't know your name. Trump is worse. You are on the board of Burisma because of who your dad is, and that is what people hate about Washington. And it was Part of the problem. And, like, there's some other weird shit. Like, he said he blames the debate on his. The Biden's staff saying they gave him Ambien on his foreign trip. But, like, Biden got back from the G7 on June 14. The debate with June 27, a lot of fucking Ambien. If Ambien was the issue. Like, I don't think it's Ambien. It's age.

[John Favreau]

Also, it's like, he was tired, so they gave him Ambien.

[Dan Pfeiffer]

Also, like, just like.

[Tommy Vietor]

Allow me to rant one more second. Like, his big beef is that Republicans stick together and Democrats are united. But he's obsessed with this show, obsessed with George Clooney. They don't talk about Gaza until 2 hours and 50 minutes into the interview. View. I'm guessing that that was the bigger threat to party unity than a George Clooney op ed. You know what I mean? It's just this sense of entitlement that, like, from Biden, from his family, from the inner circle, that he was, like, owed the presidency, owed a second term. It is just very fucking grating.

[Dan Pfeiffer]

The. The whole premise of 2024 was, yes, voters are saying that Joe Biden's age is his biggest liability. But don't worry, because Joe Biden's the closer. And when you see him campaign, he's gonna put those worries to rest. He had a good State of the Union, and then he had the worst debate any of us had ever seen, and it became insurmountable. And so, at long last, he didn't.

[John Favreau]

Put the concerns to rest. He put his campaign to rest.

[Dan Pfeiffer]

Right? And at long last, the Democratic establishment decided to listen to the voters. And it was very hard to get the establishment to do that. But ultimately they did that, and everybody kind of collectively, ultimately were able to get Joe Biden to step aside and do the right thing for the country. Now, we don't live in the world where Joe Biden ran that race all the way to the end, but one thing we know is that Hunter Biden, throughout Joe Biden's presidency was a terrible liability for him. And put the addiction aside, it is because he was on burism, because he became an artist, because he was part of a kind of, like, sleazy Washington that, as Tommy said, people hated. You were a liability. You should be ashamed of the ways in which you made your father's political life worse. And, like, the idea that we're gonna listen to you now, like, give me a fucking brace. Ridiculous.

[John Favreau]

My reaction was, first of all, I wish you all the best. Hunter, like forget about it.

[Dan Pfeiffer]

I like the art. You like the art. I think the art had a lot of pathos.

[John Favreau]

Like you know, attack us, attack truth, George Clinton, I don't fucking care. But like listening to Hunter Biden interview post election, especially the Hunter Biden one, but also Jill Biden, also Mike Donilon. When I think that these are basically the only people by the end who Joe Biden was listening to, you're like, no wonder he didn't fucking drop out. He wasn't. We know now that there were a whole bunch of pollsters who their information was not getting to Joe Biden.

[Dan Pfeiffer]

Biden.

[John Favreau]

Cuz Mike Donlon wasn't letting it get in. There's a whole staff that was working for Joe Biden some of their whole lives and they were kind of shut out too. The only people in the circle at the end was the family, was Hunter, this person in the interview and Jill and Mike Donilon who just had this faith that Joe Biden was going to win the election that wasn't based on any kind of measurement or data at all. Like the New York Times poll in February. 61% of Biden 2020 voters said he was too old to be effective. And that concern cut across generations, gender, race, education. Hunter does a whole thing in here about like, you know, we didn't know what the black voters of South Carolina, it was everyone who thought he was too fucking old. 20% of Biden 2020 voters in that poll said he was no longer capable of handling the job. This 20% of his own voters. In a poll in February, on the eve of the debate, 86% of Americans said Biden's age was a major or moderate concern. That was before the debate, 86%. And then Trump had a slight lead heading into the debate. He had a slight lead into the battleground debate. So it's like what are you. I just, it's. I just don't like the rewriting history and I hate fucking getting back into this and relitigating and doing the fight and dragging it out. But you know, Hunter's on a fucking tour right now and just going forward. I think the lesson to learn to is going. Cause hopefully we're not going to have an 80 something year old geriatric candidate again. But going forward the lesson is like look, you just can't listen to your small little circle, have a bubble and then like be impervious to any fucking outside criticism or data that is saying otherwise. Forget about Washington, forget About the pundits. Listen to the fucking voters.

[Tommy Vietor]

Also, like just on the age thing, I mean, they're talking about it and Hunter talks about the debate performance and he says that we need to grapple as a society with, quote, how we handle people that age in front of our eyes and recognize that they may have lost a physical step, but that does not mean that they don't have the mental capacity to do their job. We're not talking about whether a loved one can live alone anymore. We're talking about running the country. What are you talking about?

[John Favreau]

What about the capacity to communicate what you're going to do as president?

[Tommy Vietor]

Also let, like just seeing this today, I guess what I wanted, if I was in a room with him and able to talk rationally, I would just be like, hey man, look around the world. Look at what's happening in this country right now. Like, I know you're angry personally, but you're not the fucking victim here. We're all living with what happened in this election.

[John Favreau]

You got a pardon, you're fine.

[Tommy Vietor]

It's just utter lack of self awareness.

[Dan Pfeiffer]

It's the shamelessness that really, that really gets you in the end.

[John Favreau]

Well, I saw one quote, he said, we all talk about the incredible popularity of Barack Obama. Barack Obama never got more than 69 million votes. My dad got 81 million votes. Like, dude, now you sound like fucking Donald Trump. Who can't figure out that as the years go on, the population increases and more people vote in a high turnout election. Well, like, come on, man. And George Clooney, Trump.

[Dan Pfeiffer]

George Clooney's not an actor. The low rated Jake Tao, you just, it's amazing to watch people become the thing that they claim to be. The savior to the savior from.

[John Favreau]

It's wild. It's wild. Maybe that's the last time we hear from the Biden family on the election. Fingers crossed for a while.

[Tommy Vietor]

I mean, maybe just not during the like worst two week news cycle of Trump's administration either.

[John Favreau]

Well, that's important to get into the Epstein cycle. You want to pop your head up at the opportune time.

[Dan Pfeiffer]

Here's some good news. Stephen Colbert doesn't have to figure out how to do an interview with Joe Biden about his book. In a year and a half.

[John Favreau]

Stephen Colbert has 10 months to do whatever the fuck he wants.

[Tommy Vietor]

I know, I hope he does.

[John Favreau]

That's the other thing was like, you know, if it was real political pressure, they maybe would have yanked him. But he's got 10 months and he's free. He should fucking use it.

[Dan Pfeiffer]

Yeah, I bet he will. I bet he will. That's exciting.

[John Favreau]

All right, that's our show for today. Thanks to Lindsay Toslowski for coming on and to everyone at IMDEF for the incredible work they do. If you wanna donate, highly recommend it. They do fantastic work for immigrants. Heroic work. So go donate if you can to the Immigrant Defenders Law Center. Dan and I will be back with a new show on Friday. If you want to listen to Pod Save America ad free or get access to our subscriber discord and exclusive podcasts, consider joining our friends at the pod [e-mail] friends or subscribe on Apple Podcasts directly from the Pod Save America feed. Also, please consider leaving us a review to help boost this episode and everything we do here at Crook. Pod Save America is a crooked media production. Our producers are David Toledo, Emma Illich Frank and Saul Rubin. Our associate producer is Farah Safari. Austin Fisher is our senior producer. Reed Churlin is our executive editor. Adrian Hill is our head of news and politics. The show is mixed and edited by Andrew Chadwick. Jordan Kanter is our sound engineer, with audio support from Kyle Seglin and Charlotte Landis. Matt de Groat is our head of production. Naomi Sengel is our executive assistant. Thanks to our digital team, Elijah Cohn, Haley Jones, Ben Hefcoat, Mia Kelman, Carol Pelaviev, David Toles and Ryan Young. Our production staff is proudly unionized with the Writers Guild of America East.

[Stephen Colbert]

The world is on the brink. Wars, contentious elections, disinformation, spreading words, warp speed, and Donald Trump at the center of all of it. But what does it mean for the rest of us? Every week on Pots of the World, Tommy Vitor and I cut through the noise to explain how global power is shifting. No jargon, no homework, just clear, honest conversations about what's happening and why it matters. From breaking news to long simmering international conflicts, we dissect it all with critical analysis and some jokes that will surely embarrass our children one day. Tune in to Pod Save the World every Wednesday, wherever you get your podcasts or catch it on YouTube.