Are RFK Jr. & MAHA Coming for Your Vaccine?

Summary

Pod Save America Episode: Are RFK Jr. & MAHA Coming for Your Vaccine? Release Date: June 29, 2025

Hosts: Jon Favreau, Jon Lovett, Dan Pfeiffer, Tommy Vietor
Guest: Dr. Caitlin Jettalina, Epidemiologist and Data Scientist

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Introduction

In this episode of Pod Save America, host Dan Pfeiffer engages in a critical discussion with Dr. Caitlin Jettalina about the escalating influence of Robert F. Kennedy Jr. (RFK Jr.) and the Make America Healthy Again (MAHA) movement on vaccine policy in the United States. The conversation delves into how these developments threaten public health infrastructure, the integrity of vaccine recommendations, and broader implications for both national and global health.

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Understanding the CDC's Advisory Committee on Immunization Practices (ACIP)

Dan Pfeiffer initiates the conversation by asking Dr. Jettalina to elucidate the role of the ACIP:

"[03:26] Dr. Caitlin Jettalina: 'The ACIP is an external committee of experts that plays a vital role in transitioning vaccines from clinical trials to public access. They ensure vaccines are safe, effective, and properly distributed to those in need.'"

Dr. Jettalina explains that ACIP’s recommendations are pivotal for determining vaccine schedules, eligibility, and distribution policies, operating as a cornerstone of evidence-based public health policy.

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RFK Jr.'s Intervention and the Reshaping of ACIP

Dr. Jettalina expresses deep concerns about RFK Jr.'s recent actions:

"[05:00] Dr. Caitlin Jettalina: 'In a mere two weeks, RFK Jr. has effectively gutted ACIP by replacing 17 seasoned members with eight individuals who lack substantial expertise in vaccinology, including known anti-vaxxers like Robert Malone.'"

This rapid and unprecedented overhaul of ACIP undermines decades of trusted, science-driven vaccine policy-making. The new committee members, some of whom openly identify as anti-vaccination advocates, pose significant risks to the integrity of vaccine recommendations for approximately 330 million Americans.

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Controversial Decisions: Thimerosal and RSV Vaccines

One of the pivotal decisions made by the reconstituted ACIP involves thimerosal, a preservative used in some influenza vaccines:

"[14:51] Dr. Caitlin Jettalina: 'Thimerosal has been unequivocally demonstrated to be safe at the doses used in vaccines. The committee's decision to exclude thimerosal-containing vaccines was based on unfounded misinformation.'"

Dan Pfeiffer reiterates the myth surrounding thimerosal:

"[16:11] Dan Pfeiffer: 'Thimerosal has long been part of conspiracy theories linking it to autism, despite overwhelming evidence disproving these claims.'"

Additionally, the committee approved the use of monoclonal antibodies for RSV protection in infants but notably abstained from voting on COVID-19 vaccines, raising alarms about future vaccine availability and policy directions.

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Implications for COVID-19 Vaccination

The absence of a vote on COVID-19 vaccines by ACIP leaves critical questions unanswered:

"[17:40] Dr. Caitlin Jettalina: 'Without ACIP’s recommendations, we lack clear guidelines on COVID-19 vaccine eligibility, distribution, and insurance coverage, creating uncertainties that could hinder public health responses.'"

This paralysis extends to pandemic preparedness and biosecurity, threatening to destabilize the response mechanisms essential for managing future health crises.

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Global Consequences: US Withdrawal from GAVI

RFK Jr.'s announcement of the US withdrawing from GAVI, the Global Vaccine Alliance, has dire repercussions:

"[26:32] Dr. Caitlin Jettalina: 'GAVI provides vaccines to half of the world’s children. The US withdrawal, driven by anti-vax sentiments, jeopardizes billions of lives saved and threatens to reverse decades of progress in global health.'"

This move not only endangers lives in low to middle-income countries but also undermines international efforts to prevent global pandemics, emphasizing the interconnectedness of modern public health.

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The Rise and Evolution of the MAHA Movement

The MAHA movement, spearheaded by RFK Jr., traces its roots to a blend of legitimate health concerns and anti-vaccination rhetoric. Dr. Jettalina highlights its grassroots emergence:

"[31:30] Dr. Caitlin Jettalina: 'While MAHA started with genuine concerns about public health systems, its alignment with the MAGA movement diluted its initial objectives, steering it towards vaccine skepticism and policy disruption.'"

The movement attracts a diverse coalition, including former Democratic supporters like food influencers—e.g., Vani Hari—and individuals disillusioned with the existing health infrastructure, exemplifying a shift in political and health advocacy landscapes.

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Public Health Communication and Engagement Challenges

A significant barrier in combating the MAHA movement is effective communication. Dr. Jettalina emphasizes the necessity for public health officials to engage more creatively and empathetically:

"[58:37] Dr. Caitlin Jettalina: 'We need trusted messengers—physicians, librarians—to provide accurate information and engage with communities on their terms. Creativity and mutual respect are essential in bridging the communication gap.'"

She advocates for a two-way engagement model, fostering dialogue rather than top-down information dissemination, to rebuild trust and reaffirm the value of evidence-based health policies.

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Prospects and Strategic Recommendations

Looking forward, Dr. Jettalina underscores the importance of proactive strategies to counteract the MAHA movement’s influence:

"[62:43] Dr. Caitlin Jettalina: 'Public health must develop comprehensive agendas that not only defend existing policies but also offer compelling, evidence-based alternatives that resonate with public concerns and values.'"

She introduces her "Project 2029 Healthy America agenda," aimed at reforming healthcare systems and addressing the root causes of public distrust, thereby creating a resilient framework for future health governance.

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Conclusion

The episode paints a concerning yet not entirely dire picture of the current state of vaccine policy and public health in the United States. While RFK Jr. and the MAHA movement pose significant challenges, Dr. Jettalina remains cautiously optimistic about the potential for public health officials and Democratic strategists to re-engage and rebuild trust. The conversation underscores the urgency of addressing misinformation, fostering inclusive dialogue, and reinforcing the pillars of evidence-based policy to safeguard both national and global health interests.

Notable Quotes:

• Dan Pfeiffer [05:00]: "RFK Jr. has effectively gutted ACIP by replacing 17 seasoned members with eight individuals who lack substantial expertise in vaccinology."
• Dr. Caitlin Jettalina [14:51]: "Thimerosal has been unequivocally demonstrated to be safe at the doses used in vaccines."
• Dr. Caitlin Jettalina [26:32]: "GAVI provides vaccines to half of the world's children. The US withdrawal jeopardizes billions of lives saved."
• Dr. Caitlin Jettalina [58:37]: "We need trusted messengers—physicians, librarians—to provide accurate information and engage with communities on their terms."
• Dr. Caitlin Jettalina [62:43]: "Public health must develop comprehensive agendas that offer compelling, evidence-based alternatives that resonate with public concerns and values."

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This comprehensive summary encapsulates the episode's critical discussions on the manipulation of vaccine policy, the emerging threats posed by anti-vaccination movements, and the strategic responses required to uphold public health integrity.

Transcript

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[Dan Pfeiffer]

Welcome to Pod Save America. I'm Dan Pfeiffer. For our Sunday show this week, we're gonna do a deep dive into Robert F. Kennedy, Jr. The Make America Healthy Again movement, and the dangerous changes to vaccine policy happening. Right. While Trump's illegal deportations, unconstitutional airstrikes, and crypto scams get most of the attention, RFK Jr. Is quietly dismantling the public health infrastructure that Americans have depended on for decades. These changes in the rise of the Maha movement are having a profound and dangerous effect on our science and our politics. My guest this week is someone who's been keeping tabs on Maha and RFK Jr. Since the very beginning. Dr. Caitlin Jettalina began writing the substack, your local epidemiologist in the early days of the COVID pandemic, and it's now the platform's top science newsletter. She's an epidemiologist and data scientist and the co host of the America Dissected podcast with former crooked collaborator Dr. Abdul El Sayed. I invited her on the show to discuss what this Movement is why it's resonating with so many people. Whether there's anything we can do to stop it. Caitlin Jitalina, welcome to POD Save America.

[Meditation Guide]

Thank you for having me. I'm honored to be here.

[Dan Pfeiffer]

I have so much I want to talk to you about. I have been thinking and worrying about what's happening with RFK Jr. And HHS and the MAHA movement in vaccine for a long time. So we have a lot to get to. But I want to start with this week's meeting of the CDC's Advisory Committee on Immunization Practices, the committee that sets vaccine policy in this country. Before we get into the specifics of this meeting, can you just like level set here on what that committee does, the role it plays and the changes that RFK Jr. Has made to that committee that are concerning to so many.

[Meditation Guide]

Yeah, sure. So it's called ACIP Advisory Committee on Immunization Practices and it's basically an external committee of typically experts in vaccinology, pediatrics, medicine, epidemiology, I mean you name it. And it plays a really important role in the way we get vaccines and medical products from, you know, clinical trials all the way into people's arms and access. And so this is just one step in a really robust, I guess I'm saying this all before of everything that's changed, but usually was robust was what? Yeah, thank you. Was robust and grounded in evidence and very clear and really a well oiled machine. And so their role in this process. So FDA first decides if like a vaccine is safe and effective. That's basically the two questions they're answering. And then it goes to a sip, which is the advisory committee for cdc and they basically decide also they look at the evidence if it's safe and effective, but more importantly the policy, who gets these vaccines when, at what schedule, where, who's at high risk, etc. And then it gets signed by the CDC director and then it becomes available to us. So what's happened in these past, I can't believe it's only been like two weeks. Is that RFK Jr. All of a sudden completely gutted ACIP. They were 17 members, really highly qualified for policy decision making around vaccines and basically handpicked eight people for their replacement. And these people that were replaced are people that all the way from have no experience whatsoever in vaccines, all the way to anti vaxxers, some Covid contrarians, and really a mixed bag of wild people that are ultimately making decisions for 330 million Americans based on vaccines. This was always kind of A worry of ours in public health. The Health and Human Services secretary has a number of levers to influence vaccine policy and uptake and access. This was a huge red line that RFK Jr crossed, and it's very concerning.

[Dan Pfeiffer]

The original 17 people who were on the committee, were they appointed by the Biden administration? Are they long standing? Like, how does. Because, you know, you can look at this in one way, which is, you know, when a new president, new administration of a new party comes in, there are a whole bunch of people who are in the government who are political appointees or they're on boards of commissions, they resign and they get replaced by people who are more ideologically aligned with the new administration. Is that. That's not typically what happens here though, right?

[Meditation Guide]

Well, you know, I'll be honest, the ACIP appointments have always been somewhat opaque, but usually you're right. I mean, the appointments last for about four years. Biden administration, I think they put eight of those last 17 members in there because that just is what, you know, those end. Yeah, it's just there's a turnover. And historically, I'll be honest, this process has been grounded in nonpartisan belief system. Right. That vaccine policy should be shaped by science and experience and diverse perspectives, not ideology. And that hasn't changed for the past 70 years, whether it's a Republican or Democrat administration. So, yeah, these appointments change over time, but it's never been based on necessarily ideology like it has. It's never been just this sweeping gutting of it. And the process in which this has happened has been incredibly swift and obviously been planned for a couple months to execute very quickly.

[Dan Pfeiffer]

One of the critiques you hear from people in the MAHA movement, the RFK sort of junior acolytes about ACIP and some of these other committees that advise fda, cdc, hhs, is that their ties are too close to pharma. Right. The people who profit from these vaccines. What is the real truth there? Are there any legitimate, you know, even grounded in the conspiracy theories of it, is there any legitimate concerns there?

[Meditation Guide]

I mean, I think it's a great point, right? Like, we don't want people making policy decisions if they have a conflict of interest in pharma stock. I mean, I think that's completely legitimate. The thing that has been missing though, is that these committees go through incredibly rigorous conflicts of interest, vetting and, and what's even more interesting to me is that RFK Jr himself reaffirmed this process after he called for a full review of that acip. The last one's committee's disclosures and nothing was found. I think a few people got like $3,000 here and there, but nothing. No smoking guns that were insinuated and no systemic evidence of undue pharmaceutical influence on these members. I do find it highly hypocritical because this new ACIP membership also, sure, they don't have the typical pharmaceutical conflicts of interest, but we can't ignore that. There's other conflicts of interest out there, including some selling of supplements, anti vaccine advocacy groups making millions off of vaccine litigation trials, and none of that's been disclosed.

[Dan Pfeiffer]

And some of these people are. They are proudly Anti Vax, right? Like they have described themselves as that. Right? This is not the pro vaccine people ascribing people who may have questions as. But these people have called themselves Anti Vax, right?

[Meditation Guide]

That's right. I mean, even one of the members, right after like a week or two ago, Robert Malone, who we've always known is very Anti Vax, he writes about it all the time, came out on Twitter and said, everyone says anti Vax is a bad thing. I'm proud of it and I'm excited to serve on this committee. I mean, they're not even hiding it. It's just the next level to watch unfold.

[Dan Pfeiffer]

This movement here is it's in violation, at least of the spirit of what RFK Jr. Probably promised during his confirmation hearings. Right. He got a lot of questions about how he's gonna handle vaccines and that science would lead it, the process would not be upended. But this is the upending of the process, right?

[Meditation Guide]

Oh, completely. I mean, and it's not a surprise, right, to all of us in public health that are very familiar with RFK. I mean, he's had a 20, 30 year history of ignoring evidence around vaccines and even. And sowing doubt in them. I mean, he founded Children's Health Defense, which is an anti vax advocacy group that makes millions. And, and so there, I guess this was not a surprise. But you're right, he did promise to Cassidy, who is the chair of the help committee, that he wouldn't upend acip and he ended up doing it anyways. You know, Cassidy got played. And I don't think there's ever been a question of what the intent is from RFK and vaccines.

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[Dan Pfeiffer]

So let's talk about what happened at the meeting this week. It took place Thursday and Friday. There were a number of items on the docket, including the flu vaccine, rsv, a couple of things. Tell us what happened there.

[Meditation Guide]

It was exhausting to watch. I mean, it was basically watching a fox in the henhouse or foxes and the hen house. It followed the usual format. So if you just tuned in, it looked really legit and some of it was right. CDC scientists presented data and CDC scientists demonstrated really high competence. Thorough, thoughtful, well prepared, listened to questions answered. But this new committee, I mean, it was just clear there are not vaccine experts. They questioned basic epidemiological methods. We tallied, my team tallied more than 50 falsehoods around vaccines mentioned in two days. It was very clear that with some of the decisions made, like around thimerosal and flu vaccines, that they began with conclusions and then attempted to force evidence to fit it. We call this picture policy based evidence making, not evidence based policy making. And so it was, it was wild to watch. I mean, it was, it was sobering. I don't even know what the Word is, and it really put into question what's going to happen. How does the health ecosystem, a broader health ecosystem, really step in to fill this gap? What are the legal implications not only to our fall vaccines, but routine vaccines later on? I mean, it opened up, quite frankly, a lot of concern on my, on my side.

[Dan Pfeiffer]

So what were the decisions they made? The most notable one involves thimerosal. Can you talk about that?

[Meditation Guide]

Right, so thimerosal is in some of our flu shots, it is used across the globe and it is a preservative within our vaccines. It basically makes sure that some the vaccine formula doesn't have bacteria. It's really helpful. But this committee, based on falsehoods, voted to not recommend thimerosal flu vaccines, which means that they won't be given this fall. Now, this isn't that big of a deal. About 4 to 7% of our supply has thimerosal flu vaccine. So I'm not concerned about the supply. I'm much more concerned about the groundwork in which they did and how this is going to apply in the future to other vaccines like Hep B or HPV or, or measles vaccine, for example. I'm also very concerned about the ripple effects that will have on the global community given that a lot of vaccines out there include thimerosal because it is safe. There's literally no evidence to show it's unsafe. And then there's also possible implications on pandemic preparedness, biosecurity risk and the need to use this in future vaccines. And so overall, not a big deal, but does lay the groundwork.

[Dan Pfeiffer]

Let me just add on thimerosal, it thymers all has been part of a long running conspiracy theory tying it to autism correctly.

[Meditation Guide]

Yeah, it is, is.

[Dan Pfeiffer]

And there's no evidence, just. We'll be very clear on that.

[Meditation Guide]

Yes, correct. It's very safe. And it is based on basically in the mid-1990s, we didn't know too much about the toxicity and so we actually removed thimerosal from the vaccines out of precaution. But since then there's been so many studies that demonstrated that it's very safe, especially at the levels used in vaccines.

[Dan Pfeiffer]

Okay. And now on to the other decisions.

[Meditation Guide]

Other ones. The other decision was rsv, that we were going to have RSV protection. In fact, we are going to have another monoclonal antibody for infants for rsv. And this is not a vaccine, but it basically gives us antibodies or gives our infants antibodies to protect against rsv. Interestingly, there was not A vote for Covid vaccines. And that is definitely not normal. And we need recommendations for fall. And so it leaves huge questions around what will be available to who and when this fall for Covid vaccines.

[Dan Pfeiffer]

And so what does that mean in practice? If they never vote on it, will that mean there will be no Covid vaccines? Like, how does that, what does that. How does, how does that work exactly? I know we've never been down this road before. So you're speculating.

[Meditation Guide]

Well, that's the big question, right? So, I mean, we know right now that manufacturers are making vaccines and they're based on last year's formula, not this year's formula, because FDA now says we have to do placebo controls that are not feasible and unethical, whatever, but they're making them. The question is eligibility. And the reason that's a big question is because in July, in a few weeks, physicians and hospital systems need to order these vaccines. These vaccines then need to be distributed. Then the public needs to have an expectation of what to get, where the physicians need to be educated. And so there's, there's this, the insurers, we need to know if insurers are going to cover it, right? Because usually insurers only cover what ACIP recommends. And so there's this domino effect of what happens after a June ACIP meeting in regards to fall. And there's just. There's so many unanswered questions. I'm not sure how this plays out. I do think what's going to happen is we're going to see the formation of professional societies like American Academy of Pediatrics make recommendations and maybe even like a shadow ACIP to help fill this vacuum and get everyone, the fleet moving in the same direction. But I mean, time's a ticking and lives are on the stake.

[Dan Pfeiffer]

It's. It's like there are so many, like, interests that are in conflict here, right? Where you have. So it's like you have these. Pharma has made these vaccines, right? And they want to sell them. You have insurance, which may not want to cover them because. And so it's just like, it's very like, we're obviously in the like, sort of very dangerous, uncharted orders. When does the committee meet again? Do they meet every month?

[Meditation Guide]

October. They meet three months.

[Dan Pfeiffer]

October. So we will be into flu and potentially Covid, like the typical time, if I recall my many Covid shots I've had over the last five years here, we usually get the boosters in the fall, right? Like, this is like, I think I Get mine with the same time as my flu shot every year, right?

[Meditation Guide]

Yeah, yeah.

[Dan Pfeiffer]

And so it'll be October before they could even make a decision. So it's possible everything's on hold till then.

[Meditation Guide]

Oh, October. They won't even make a decision. They're onto the next thing. They'll be talking about measles and vaccine schedules and everything in October. And so this was the meeting for that. And that's why there's a lot of confusion and that's why the broader health ecosystem needs to step up. They need to find courage, they need to coordinate and have a united front to make sure that Americans have the confidence to make informed decisions.

[Dan Pfeiffer]

But they did approve the flu vaccine, right?

[Meditation Guide]

Yes. So what's. Yeah, flu rsv, I would say, are guaranteed for and everyone over six months or whatever the eligibility is there and you need to get protected. Covid's the big question.

[Dan Pfeiffer]

I mean, it seems like a pretty giant deal that the committee just took. I mean, I know a lot's happening in the world. That's one of the reasons I want to have this conversation, is that there's so much happening around. All the other stuff Trump's doing, we're bombing Iran, there's these deportations, they're all huge deals. And right underneath the surface, there's massive changes happening to how public health is done in this country with real world implications to every person. And it doesn't get the attention in a different environment. The committee filled with anti vaxxers taking a pass on even considering the COVID booster when we've done it for every year since the pandemic seems kind of crazy to me.

[Meditation Guide]

It is crazy. And you're right. I do think it's going below the surface. I mean, I try with my newsletter.

[Dan Pfeiffer]

I know you're doing everything you can. I know, I know. That's why we're having this conversation. Yes.

[Meditation Guide]

Yeah. And there's a lot that people have to pay attention to. It's a magnetic storm and it's exhausting to keep up with everything. But it's our job in public health to keep really close tabs on this and it's very concerning how it's unfolding right now.

[Dan Pfeiffer]

Does ACIP have to make recommendations on other long standing vaccines? The one I'm thinking about most is mmr, the measles vaccine. I understand, like every year they're going to approve or not approve these new things that are coming up or new vaccines that come on the market. I'm not even going to get into what happens if we have another pandemic and they have to approve vaccines. But just like, obviously, like we're in the middle of this measles outbreak. RFK Jr. Others have spread misinformation about the measles vaccine and how to deal with measles. In a normal world, would the committee weigh in and tell people to go get a measles booster or how would that work?

[Meditation Guide]

Right. So, and this is what I actually think was the most concerning about this ACET meeting this week was watching them start to lay the groundwork for routine vaccinations. In fact, the ACP chair announced two work groups that is going to look into the routine childhood vaccination schedule and they're going to revisit vaccines that like hepatitis B and HPV and MMR vaccines. And so while they're very safe, they're very effective. I can kind of see where we in public health see where this is going and incredibly concerned about the future of routine vaccinations.

[Dan Pfeiffer]

I think one question. You have a bunch of people who now are on this committee or this minority in the Maha movement or the anti vax movement who have concerns about vaccines. And now you have people who have always believed in vaccines, who vaccinate their kids on schedule, who's got the COVID vaccine, get their boosters. And now we have these questions potentially of a bunch of anti vax cranks looking at our vaccines. Like what? Like you say in here that FDA are the ones who ensure the safety and efficacy. Like how much fear should there be that an RFK Jr. FDA is not, you know, even one gutted by Elon Musk and Doge is not doing the what they should that part of the process. Right? So you have someone's got to test it, make sure it's right, and then you got a bunch of people who's got to approve it. How do we feel about the process in the testing and efficacy part, all.

[Meditation Guide]

Of this is like a checks and balances movement. And so with fda, the interesting thing about FDA is you have counterbalances that have huge lobbyists, right? We're talking about like pharma and like stepping up. And so I think that if FDA did something shady, so because usually in these FDA meetings, pharma companies present the data and then FDA scientists present the data and you would the assumption is that they match because that means then everyone's working in honesty. I think when they start not matching, you're going to hear an uproar from pharma. Give what you care about Pharma Companies, at least there's, there's some sort of balance there. The challenge with CDC is there is no like counterbalance there. There's like not a lobbyist, I guess that is like going to come out and be very angry that these policies are not recommended. And so like I think I'm a little less concerned with FDA than I am with CDC just because of that point. I don't know if that makes sense, but that's how I'm thinking.

[Dan Pfeiffer]

Like I don't want to trust Big Pharma. I understand.

[Meditation Guide]

Like, I know.

[Dan Pfeiffer]

But they do have a strong. If you believe that the problem with Big Pharma is that they want to make money above all else. They do have a strong financial interest in having effective vaccines and safe vaccines. Right. If they don't, that's bad business if what they care about is business. But this is sort of the end result of what the anti vax people want is they want to raise questions and all these things. Right? To be able to like you can see, like you mentioned, they're going to get to the schedules. It's one of the things you hear when you're a parent of a young child. Like really I'm supposed to stick my kid with all of these vaccines at one time on one day. And there's science for why you do it. But if they start raising questions about that, it's, you know, just, it's, they're feeding doubt into the system and when and that can, that can metastasize over time.

[Meditation Guide]

Oh my God. Yeah. And you know what? Like I think we need to ground ourselves and I try to like think about this often, like 95% of people agree with vaccines. I mean when was the last time that many Americans agreed on something, you know, like. And so I, what I'm very concerned about is that the very minority representation is now one making these decisions, but also have this huge megaphone around this sort of stuff and it's going to start chipping away at that 90 plus percent of Americans. I'm very concerned about that. So yeah, we'll see how this plays out.

[Dan Pfeiffer]

We'll see. The last thing on vaccines here is RFK Jr. Announced that the US was no longer contribute to the global GAVI, the global vaccine Compact. Talk a little about what that means for the world.

[Meditation Guide]

Yeah, it's incredible. So incredibly bad. So GAVI is this international collaboration that provides vaccines to half of the world's children. I mean we're talking about a ton of people here and the GAVI just had a Meeting this week where they basically plan for financial, it's financial planning for the next five years. And RFK comes, he recorded a video and play and Gavi played it and it basically said that US is removing its commitment to Gavi because of anti Vax. And he just started spouting off anti Vax falsehoods. And so it wasn't necessarily about efficiency of the budget, it was literally anti Vax. And so it's going to create this huge hole. I mean, we've saved billions of lives across the globe because of Gavi. The whole reason we needed Gavi was because there was a huge market gap for pharmaceutical companies because there wasn't really a market in low to middle income countries because they didn't have the money to pay for vaccines. And so it's. I don't know, I don't even know how to say it. I mean, we're gonna lose lives to this. It is cruel. It's cruel. And it's also, I think it's important that it's also already congressionally appropriated funds through 2030 first of all, and, and HHS doesn't even control those funds. It's through the State Department. So again, another example of just completely disregarding processes and lives will be lost because of it.

[Dan Pfeiffer]

And even like I'm of the view and call, call me a bleeding heart liberal here, that we, that saving children's lives around the world is like an end in of itself. But even if you were to say I only care about what happens in our borders, it matters to the US that there aren't diseases spreading all around the world. Right? Like, isn't that, isn't that help? Like that's one of the reasons why we prevent global pandemics is to make sure that there aren't measles spreading all across or smallpox spreading all across continents in the world. Right?

[Meditation Guide]

Right. I mean, we're a globalized world. I mean we're just a train plane right away from any disease. And saving lives is really important to my value system even beyond America. But if we're just thinking about America first, there is huge value in soft power around health and ensuring that other societies are healthy too. Infectious diseases violate the assumption of independence. Right. What one person does directly impacts another person. And I hoped we learned that during COVID but apparently, apparently we learned the wrong lesson.

[Dan Pfeiffer]

It seems like, or at least the people in charge did.

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[Dan Pfeiffer]

All right, let's pivot a little bit beyond vaccines to the Maha movement, American America Healthy Again movement broadly and RFK jr's role in it. I mean, obviously he is someone who is proudly anti vax. He has come to great national attention and in some, in some parts of the country, infamy for that position. But can you talk a little about a little bit about his role and how he got here?

[Meditation Guide]

Right. So yeah, he's always been kind of in this space of health and you know, it's really interesting.

[Dan Pfeiffer]

Environmental as well.

[Meditation Guide]

Environmental and yeah, anti vaccine. But he's always been on the left, which I think is fascinating. But what we've seen over the past year, and this is what is interesting, is that this movement really came out of nowhere Maha and really fast. As you know, Dan, there was a big movement back in 2010 with Michelle Obama around healthier eating, childhood obesity, blah, blah, blah, that was completely shut down by Republicans saying we're the nanny state, you can't take away my ultra processed foods. But this movement really came out of nowhere. There's this huge groundswell of support. And for us in public health, we were like, at first we're like, all right, here we go. Let's do prevention, let's prevent chronic diseases, let's fix the healthcare system. But then you start peeling off the branding and knowing RFK Jr. S history and you start looking at the details and solutions and MAHA really starts losing me and other public health colleagues. So yeah, I mean RFK really created this grassroots movement and then hitched it to MAGA and that's where we are today.

[Dan Pfeiffer]

Yeah, I understand. And this is something that this would be clipped socially would come back to haunt me. But I sort of understand the appeal of part of the MAHA movement. Like I live in the Bay Area, I'm a parent of young kids. I read Omnivore's Dilemma 20 years ago. I'm worried about the food system. I saw Michelle Obama plant a garden and talk about all these things and sugar and everything in our diet. You know, I like my wife and I spend a lot of time like thinking about like, what are the healthy snacks for our kids? Should we serve them, you know, food in glass as opposed to plastic and bp? Like we think about all of that and because we have young kids in the area, like it's something that is like talked about all the time. I can't tell you how much the local first grade parents WhatsApp chain has blown up about the cinnamon rolls at free breakfast in the California public schools. Right now we're very into this. But you can see, and because of that, I can see how the pipeline works. It starts with, oh, here are the healthy snacks for kids, here's the recipes you should make, here's the chemical free sunscreens or whatever else to all of a sudden. And I'm going to get to some of these specifics. The dangers of seed oils, fluoride, all of those things. And then red dye. Red dyes, right. There's so much discussion about red dyes. Then you get to the vaccine stuff. And so this pipeline has been created. And like as you say, not everyone in the MAHA movement is anti vax. Right. You're talking about 95% of people agree. And so you have a bunch of people who are on board with RFK Jr. For all the other in this whole movement, this idea for all the stuff that gets up to vax, maybe they're going to get moved to an anti vax position start asking questions around it. But it's the other stuff. And I think we as like people like political positions like myself can get into a dangerous place when you dismiss all the other concerns. Not the solutions offered by Maha, but the concerns as a bunch of anti vax cranks and. But I want to get, I want to go through some of the specifics because I have an actual scientist with me today on some of these things they're concerned about. And I'm going to start with seed oils. Okay. Which is like I can't tell you how much seed oil content I see on Instagram and TikTok and the dangers of it. What does the science say about whether seed oils are bad for you or worse for you than other oils?

[Meditation Guide]

Right. So seed oils are just to back up a little.

[Dan Pfeiffer]

They are describe seed oil because most people say the word seed oil don't know what it means. But yes, yeah.

[Meditation Guide]

They're extracted from the seeds of plants like soybeans and canola and corn and sunflower and grape seeds. And this is in contrast to oils like olive or avocado oil that are extracted from fruits. But you're right, I mean there's been this recent fear around seed oils and the reality is that they are part of a healthy diet. I mean seed oils are particularly high in this thing called polyunsaturated fats, which are important for heart health and cell function and metabolism and immune regulation. And our bodies can't make it on its own. We have to get it from food. And seed oils are really important part of that. We've had huge studies showing the importance on like heart health, for example. But you're right, there's been a recent backlash. Right. Critics have called seed oils toxic or poisonous and even blame them on the chronic, the rise of chronic disease we've seen in the United States. And it's really based on conflicting evidence. Correlation doesn't equal causation. Some just plain out rumors. Also there's a lot of money in this that I don't think we can ignore. Right. The wellness market prop off of fear. It's valued of over I think $6 trillion. And so people who demonize seed oils, for example, are also selling products that claim to reverse the damage or detox or you know, seed oil alternatives or beef towel. And so the a lot of this I think and the theme around all of these topics, whether it's seed oils or red dyes or fluoride, is that our information landscape has just dramatically changed. It's really confusing on Social media. And we've also unleashed this curiosity driven class which I love. People are asking really tough questions. It just means that we have to rise to that occasion.

[Dan Pfeiffer]

All right, so let's talk food dice. This is the one you see all the time. The argument is, while there haven't been studies, there have been these. And I saw the interview with the head of the FDA and Megyn Kelly recently where Megyn Kelly was very concerned that she was going to make a birthday cake for her daughter. And she looked at the icing and it had all these red dyes in it. And then the FDA had went on this long thing about the dangers of dyes and that although there weren't studies on it per se, there's a lot of anecdotal evidence of parents who took their kids off dyes. You hear all the time, the dyes we use in America are banned in Europe. If you buy Froot Loops here in Froot Loops in Canada, they look very different because of the dye. So it's like, what is, what is the reality about the dyes we use compared to the other countries? And what are the risks of dyes at all? Because I mean, they're being banned in states across the country. Even here in California, the Governor Newsom signed a bill that did it in school lunches, I believe. But what's the reality here?

[Meditation Guide]

Yeah, first of all, the reality is, contrary to popular belief, a lot of these dyes are allowed in Europe. They are not banned.

[Dan Pfeiffer]

They just have different names, right?

[Meditation Guide]

They have different names. I'm like, guys, come on, like, let's start using anyways. So they have different names. So first of all, yeah, it's not banned in Europe. There has been some like rat studies that have looked at red dyes. When we look at it in human studies at the dose we usually get it, there's certainly there has no harm around it. You know, with substances, dose is the toxin. I mean, water can be toxic if we have enough of it. And, and you know, I think fine, if you want to take out red dyes, fine. But like candy is also still candy at the end of the day. And I also think that with this red dye discussion, and honestly a lot with Maha, with this individualistic approach, it fails to look at the trade offs at a population level. That, and it'll be interesting to see what those trade offs are for red dyes. But natural colors are more expensive to make. They're less consistent and they have less shelf life, which means higher food costs and potentially more food waste. And so there's a trade off for people that can't afford these very expensive foods. And we are really losing. What is the saying? The forest for the trees. Forest for the trees.

[Dan Pfeiffer]

Yeah.

[Meditation Guide]

Right. Because there are huge changes that need to be made to our food systems. Red dye is like the small. It's like going to be turning our wheels to fix the chronic health problems. We're not tackling these root causes, which is frustrating. Frustrating to see.

[Dan Pfeiffer]

So there would probably be no health downside to switching to beet juice for red dye. I think that's the natural alternative. But the argument against would be, I guess I'm going to just drill down this one. Food costs would go up. So that's one of the reasons why we have these dyes and these chemicals. They would spoil more. And ultimately the big thing is we're not focused on the things like we should be getting kids to eat less candy, period. Not less candy with dye is sort of the way you'd say it.

[Meditation Guide]

Right. And like food deserts and food insecurity and industry influence and like all of these big things that really impact behavior. And I don't think this is it. I think the other interesting thing is, yeah, you're right with shelf life and making it more expensive. Also, it's important to know some people are allergic to beets. Right. So some of these natural colors may pose an individual risk with food allergies too. So there's important implications. But like, we need to step back and if we're really going to move this needle in the United States for health.

[Dan Pfeiffer]

So let's do fluoride now. The state of Utah has now banned adding fluoride to public drinking water. I mean, really, for most of my life, have you ever heard anyone talking about fluoride in the water? It was like a real sign that they were a kook. Right. You would cross the street if someone was talking to the other side of the street, if they're talking about fluoride. And now it's becoming public policy. What is the truth here? Especially given how much fluoride we get in our toothpaste and all of that.

[Meditation Guide]

Yeah. So fluoride is really important for our teeth. This is why toothpaste contains fluoride, why dentists apply it to us directly. I think the question that's being debated right now is whether we should add it to our public water supplies. We started adding fluoride in the mid-1900s because. And it really helped decrease cavities, like an incredible amount. I think that once we've Started introducing fluoride in toothpaste. The benefit is definitely more modest. Like, let's be honest with that, right? Like, it's especially. Well, I'll get to that in a little. But it's definitely more modest. But there still shows clear improvement. For example, we've had case studies like in Calgary, they banned fluoride in just five years. Cavities increased almost twofold and use of antibiotics increased Eightfold. Right. Due to bacteria in teeth. And they ended up putting it back in fluoride in 2021. So we still say it's important. But what's even more important is that, and this is where public health comes in, is that the public water system reaches everyone equally. And so fluoridation mitigates the impact of disparities and access to dental care. In the United States, low income families struggle to one find dentists that take their insurance, like Medicaid, if they have insurance at all.

[Dan Pfeiffer]

Right.

[Meditation Guide]

If they have insurance at all. There's definitely dentist deserts. Right. So access is an issue. And even going beyond cavities, poor dentition can be a source of stigma for our kids in schools. And you know, I think that this really highlights what public health is, is that it's an invisible intervention. You don't really think about it much. It's incredibly safe at the doses we receive and it benefits the most vulnerable. And so when we remove fluoride, you know, me and San Diego and my kids are going to be just fine. We go to the dentist, we can afford toothpaste. But what I'm very concerned about is the health disparities gap is just going to increase and increase. And that has major implications for Americans.

[Dan Pfeiffer]

Would you say in all the concerns we have about our water in this country, fluoride is low on the list, like between pollution and chemicals. This is sort of the point here. Right. Which is like what we're bringing. This is why I think one of the dangers of the Maha movement, because it's taking a legitimate, legitimate concerns about health, a broken food system trying to feed a family on a limited budget or what they're fed at school. Right. Like you want to do that, but then the answers are not answering the real problems and they're kind of distracting from the real things that we should be addressing. Right.

[Meditation Guide]

It's totally true. And that's what's so confusing with this Maha movement. I mean, Dan, you mentioned you're totally gain for some of these things, and I am too. But it's mixing really reasonable statements with one outright falsehoods. But also two. Just like not the solution which will keep our wheels spinning, right? They're distractions or misdiagnoses and we don't have time, right? Like our health isn't great in the United States, right? We need to do things better and it's hard to watch More from my.

[Dan Pfeiffer]

Conversation with Kaitlyn Genalina after this break. But first, some housekeeping. If you like Positive America, you'll love my newsletter of the Message Box, which dives deep into what's happening in our politics, how Democrats can return to power, and has actionable ideas on how each and every one of us can do our part to defeat maga. In my latest post out this morning, I wrote about the lessons that every Democrat running up and down the ballot in districts as blue as New York City and red as West Virginia can learn from Zoran Mandani's incredible victory in New York City. If you want to follow along and join the conversation, head to the incredibly cringe worthy, incredibly embarrassing website crooked.com yeswedan to unlock a 30 day free trial of message box for Pod Save America listeners The Supreme Court's conservative supermajority just paved the way for red states to defund Planned Parenthood. Their decision undermines access to abortions, cancer screenings and all reproductive healthcare for millions and millions of people on Medicaid across the country. Our friends at Vote Save America have a fund to support impacted Planned Parenthoods and their patients. Go to votesaveamerica.com support to make a donation right now, paid for by Vote Save America. You can learn more@votesave America.com this ad has not been authorized by any candidate or candidates committee.

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[Dan Pfeiffer]

How many discounts does USAA Auto Insurance offer? Too many to say here. Multi vehicle discount Safe driver discount, New vehicle discount Storage discount.

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[Meditation Guide]

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[Dan Pfeiffer]

So you've done something that not a lot of people do, which is you've actually engaged with members of the Maha movement. Not just by seeing their content on Instagram, you've actually met with them. Can you talk a little about how those conversations came to be and what you learned from them?

[Meditation Guide]

I did. I was invited. A good friend, Brenda Acari, was the executive producer for Jon Stewart, but also co hosts a podcast, why Should I Trust you? And invited a couple of us in Public Health to meet with Maha Grassroots. And I'll be honest, like at first I was like hell no. Like they are in the middle of this destruction that I'm seeing with public health. No way. But I ended up going. I went in after a lot of wrestling with a goal of about 75% listening and 25% speaking my truth. And we've met a couple times since that first time. Been doing texts and I'll be honest. Like that first conversation was one of the most raw, honest and important conversation I think I've ever had in my professional career. I learned a lot about the Maha movement, what drives them to do this, how they view life. I was able to tell my truth as well. Like slashing Medicaid is not going to help make America healthy again. And these have turned over time into relationships and where we can learn from each other. We can agree to disagree, but also what I've also seen is that we can partner on things that I agree with, that we have common ground and it's been a fascinating journey. I'll I'll say that.

[Dan Pfeiffer]

What, like, what did you learn about how someone. About how they ended up in this place? Like, what are the values that drive them there?

[Meditation Guide]

Yeah, you know, I. We were talking about this earlier, but Maha is not a monolith. Right. It's a very eclectic group of people. You have Democrats, you have Republicans, you have Independents, you have anti vaxxers, you have pro vaxxers. I mean, it's. It's a huge group. And so. But what I learned was a common theme is that everyone in this room has had a story of heartbreak, betrayal, and mistrust from the health system. Whether it was a mom caring for an adult with autism, or a family ripped apart from opioid epidemic, or a small business owner that had to survive pandemic shutdowns. There were lived experiences, right? They're painful, they're messy, they're very human. And what matters the most to them is that these systems that were built to protect people didn't show up for them when they needed it. And so they are going to other sources and other voices that see that and respond to that. The other really interesting thing I learned, and I was genuinely surprised about this, was that some of the members acknowledged that hitching their movement to the broader MAGA movement was a risky bet and actually very much grappling with those consequences right now. Right. Because there are cuts to research on diabetes or food access or maternal health, and it's really hurting their ability to make progress. And so while they're all very supportive of Kennedy's vision, I think some believe that blind allegiance to MAGA is hindering their development of solutions. And I say, yes, it is. So, you know, yeah, I've learned a lot, and these discussions have been incredible.

[Dan Pfeiffer]

That was one of the things that I've been very curious about, because you can look, if you take everything that these folks believe in good faith, right? And you can see, like, RFK Jr saying what they want to hear on food dyes and processed foods. And then if you are anti vax, obviously it's doing exactly what you want, much to the detriment of the country in the world. But then everything outside of HHS is doing the opposite of what Maha wants. Right? Like, they, like, we're talking about seed oils. I've got to stop seed oils. The top lobbyist for the seed oil association has a senior role at the Department of. Folks, everyone is so worried about glyphates, right? The herbicide used in Roundup and then in getting that out of our food. And it shows up in our fruit and vegetables, whatever else. And you have the EPA cutting the regulations that would govern and prevent these chemicals from getting in our food and water. I mean, all the regulations that Obama and Biden put in about clean air and clean water are getting gutted. And then if you care, just like healthy food, they've gutted the program. They've ended the program that helps schools buy food from local farmers.

[Meditation Guide]

Farmers from us.

[Dan Pfeiffer]

Yeah. And I've been very curious if there is, if they like how aware they are of that tension and whether it makes them. I'm glad to know you see that there are some questions, but how aware are they of that stuff? And I guess the other question is maybe the leaders are aware, but I'm assuming maybe the members of the movement, not the ones who are showing up at meetings, but who now identify in maha and have these concerns, are even aware of that stuff.

[Meditation Guide]

Stuff, yeah. I mean, you know, I think that they're definitely aware, I will say very aware of Medicaid cuts. They're very concerned about that, as they should be very aware of SNAP benefits being cut for 2 million kids that rely on this for food. And so, you know, I think that they are aware of some of that. They're not aware. I'll be honest about other things that I've tried to keep them up to date on, like cutting clinical trials for diabetes or cancer research. Because like we said at the top of the hour, there's just so much to pay attention to. I think the ultimate question they come to answer is are we making more progress within MAGA than when we wouldn't have been through there? And what their conclusion is is yes, is that even though we've hitched our wagon to this, we're still doing some important work and that was better than before. And I think that they hang their hat on that.

[Dan Pfeiffer]

You know, you brought up Michelle Obama, her healthy food initiatives when she was first lady and I worked at the White House and when I put on my quasi retired political strategist hat and I look at this and I'm like, these are the people who have these concerns are people who used to be Democratic voters. Right. I'm not getting into the core anti vaxxers, even though a lot of people were on the left pre Covid, but the people who really are worried about a broken food system, worried about clean air and clean water. How do you feed your healthy kids? And I always think about Vani Hari, who, for people who don't know, is someone known as food Babe who is probably the most influential food influencer. She's become a leader in the Maha movement. She sat behind RFK Jr during his confirmation hearings. She was an Obama delegate in 2012.

[Meditation Guide]

Oh, I didn't know.

[Dan Pfeiffer]

And at some point. Yes. And had volunteered on the campaign in 08. A true blue Democrat. And she was doing food influencing back then. She started food babe in 2011. And like at some point the Democratic Party lost these people. Do you have any sense or theories about how that happened or how we could communicate with them better?

[Meditation Guide]

I mean I think that the larger Democratic Party now we'll get into just politics has, has lost the, the thread and is not responsive to the needs on the ground. I think a lot of what Democrats and public health, I'll just say hear and sound like is defending the status quo and, and people aren't. The status quo isn't good. Right. We're very sick. We have these, you know, profit led health systems and people are done with it. And so I do hope that people see this groundswell that they listen to these concerns and provide alternatives to RFK Jr. I'll say. I think through these discussions with Maha, one of the most hopeful things is I've seen a ton of opportunity that there's these huge fractures between Maha and Maga. Well, guess who else cares about making Americans healthy is public health. It's Democrats. And so what is the strategy for that? I mean one example is I'm surprised no political party has, has taken up health care costs. And I think that's a huge opportunity right now to gain a groundswell to create a movement and to push us forward to a better health care system. So I guess that, I mean I think that people move because people weren't being listened to and, or being spoken to.

[Dan Pfeiffer]

I think in this case he's spoken to.

[Meditation Guide]

Spoken with.

[Dan Pfeiffer]

Right, Exactly. Like it is true. Like it is like RFK Jr long before he was running for president and then becoming HSG secretary was like omnipresent in the wellness space. Right. He's, he's talking to Mark Hyman, he's on all the podcasts, he's talking to Vani Hari's doing all these things. And there was no Democratic voice there like that. In from 2008 to 2012 you had Michelle Obama. She was doing those things. It was easier in that information ecosystem that if the first lady of the United States was talking about these things that everyone in the world would hear about it because it worked. But now we're all in these information bubbles and these interest a lot. The way I always think about this from a communication perspective is we now, because of the way Instagram and TikTok and YouTube work, the world's on an interest graph is what you're interested in is going to send you down a path. And so the people who are opting into wellness and health and that sort of stuff are not people that we have been, we have not been going. Democrats have been going into those spaces to speak to those people. And so, you know, conspiracy theorists love a vacuum, right?

[Meditation Guide]

And there is a vacuum. I mean there's a clear vacuum. And you're right. I think that largely Democrats have this top down approach to communication where information flows linearly, we are the experts in the ivory towers, blah, blah, blah. And what Republicans do and Maha does incredibly well is this bottom up approach is you talk to people, you activate networks, you meet their needs and people love that and I love that. Like I wouldn't, I don't blame them for that. But like, let's do it in an evidence based way where we really need to step up.

[Dan Pfeiffer]

Have you thought about, you know, from a public health perspective? Right. Like I come at it from a political persuasion perspective. How do we get these voters back? How do we persuade them about what, what Trump and RFK are doing is wrong? But ultimately we have to communicate. It's the role of the job of public health to communicate people how to keep their family safe, what vaccines to take. Have you thought about if the Maha movement taught you anything about how the public health world should communicate differently with the public?

[Meditation Guide]

Oh my gosh, yeah. I mean, I've been on this adventure the past five years, just doing my newsletter. I've learned a ton about this. But you're right, you know, there's a value of nuance, right? Never underestimate the public. They want to know what MRNA is, what red dyes are and if they're safe. I think there's huge power in trusted messengers. So how do we start engaging physicians and librarians and whoever that people get their information and trust. Also there's this importance of meeting people where they're at. And there's the thing I think we're missing the most is creativity needed to develop these two way streets. Like with Maha group, you know, in these Maha discussions after I was like, hey, can you guys help me write? Just look over my FAQs around routine vaccinations. And they sent me back this incredible feedback and it was. And even better. And I was like, I integrated their feedback and they wanted an added question answered and I just sent it back saying so thank, thank you so much for doing these routine vaccination questions. And they're like no problem. We sent this out into the entire MAHA network. And so like there's this value of engagement and co developing and the idea that curiosity can be a bridge and, and I hope that public health, not hope. Public health needs to learn that as quickly as possible. The Democratic party needs to learn that as quickly as possible or there's going to be continue to be a void as well as that's just how communities thrive and we need to empower individuals at this moment.

[Dan Pfeiffer]

Do you think this group would be open to talking with someone like a Democrat? Like I know Cory Booker who's a vegan and has talked a lot about our broken food system in a lot of ways would think they would want to engage with someone like that.

[Meditation Guide]

Yeah, I mean I think that what I have heard them say to me at least is everyone treats Maha like they're radioactive. And so I think that there's really opportunity. I mean I'll be honest, they're kind of radioactive in some things. But like there's other things that it's really worth engaging on and we've seen that. I mean they've started talking to other public health leaders around Medicaid. We're partnering with nutrition, we're partnering with toxic water and so it's happening. I think it just matters of everyone take a deep breath. Let's try to find that common ground and work from there.

[Dan Pfeiffer]

Last question for you. We're having this conversation because I'm sort of obsessed with the Wellness to Maha Namaga pipeline. How we get these people back. The Vani Hari Obama delegate to RFK junior surrogate thing haunts me in my brain like how did we lose that person? We should not be losing Obama delegates to become RFK junior acolytes. But one of the things is that I would hope that as Democrats move forward we would come up with our version of a Maha agenda. Like what we would go to these people. It's not just the people who self ID as Maha, but just people who have legitimate concerns about our food system, chronic disease in this country, worried about their parents, their kids, et cetera. In addition to health care costs are other things you think that Democrats should be, should be talking about that would be persuasive but also more effective than these sort of obsessions with seed oils and red dyes and those sorts of things.

[Meditation Guide]

We need to provide an alternative path. I mean it's that simple. I mean, what is our plan, right? Our plan is not to go back to 2024, 2019, like what do we want to see in the world? How, what is our solutions to this, this up healthcare system? I've been thinking about this a lot. In fact, I don't know if I should admit this, but like I started writing like a Project 2029 for good because I'm like, someone just needs to start, you know, part of this, you know, the past six months have been defense. And I'll be honest, like that defense is really important, especially in public health when it's getting destructed. But also, also you need an offense of like, where do we want to go? What is valuable? What are Americans saying? And meet them where they at. And so that's just not something I've seen and it's been quite depressing. But also it tells me why we lose people, right? We lost people to RFK Jr and we need to do a whole lot of work to plan ahead and try, try to lead down a different path that we see matches our value system.

[Dan Pfeiffer]

Well, Caitlin, thank you so much for this conversation. We started off quite scary and alarming. I think we've ended in a relatively hopeful place as you put the finishing touches on your Project 2029 Healthy America agenda. Let's talk again because I'm very fascinated in this and this has been really a great conversation.

[Meditation Guide]

Absolutely. Thanks so much for having me, Dan.

[Dan Pfeiffer]

That's our show for today. Tommy Love will be back with a brand new show in your feed on Tuesday morning.

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