Billionaires' Bet on Trump Pays Off

Summary

Pod Save America Episode Title: Billionaires' Bet on Trump Pays Off
Release Date: December 13, 2024
Host/Authors: Jon Favreau, Dan Pfeiffer, John Lovett, and Tommy Vietor
Podcast Description: Pod Save America is a no-bullshit conversation about politics hosted by former Obama aides Jon Favreau, Jon Lovett, Dan Pfeiffer, and Tommy Vietor. It cuts through the noise to break down the week’s news and helps people figure out what matters and how they can help.

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Introduction

In this episode of Pod Save America, hosts Jon Favreau and Dan Pfeiffer delve into the shifting political landscape following the 2024 elections, focusing on the intricate dance between billionaires, corporate influence, and Donald Trump's resurgence. The discussion highlights significant developments in the Justice Department, corporate alignment with political figures, and the strategic maneuvers of both Democrats and Republicans as they navigate a post-election America.

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1. President Biden’s Clemency Actions

Timestamp: [02:57] – [05:50]

Key Points:

• President Biden made history by granting clemency to nearly 1,500 individuals and pardoning 39 others, marking the largest single-day clemency action in modern history.
• The majority of these pardons and commutations were for nonviolent drug offenses, aimed at individuals who have rehabilitated and reintegrated into their communities.
• There is anticipation and hope that Biden will extend further clemency, potentially targeting the 40 individuals on federal death row.

Notable Quotes:

• Jon Favreau [02:55]: "The White House announced on Thursday that President Biden made history by granting clemency to nearly 1500 people and pardoning 39 others."
• Dan Pfeiffer [05:13]: "I hope it's the 40 death row inmates. Joe Biden... was the first modern president elected who was an opponent of the death penalty."

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2. FBI Director Christopher Wray’s Resignation and Successor Appointment

Timestamp: [09:39] – [15:34]

Key Points:

• FBI Director Christopher Wray announced his resignation before Trump’s inauguration, allowing Trump to appoint Cash Patel as his successor.
• Jon Favreau and Dan Pfeiffer critique Wray’s decision to resign voluntarily rather than face termination, viewing it as an undermining of the FBI’s integrity.
• The appointment of Cash Patel is seen as a strategic move by Trump to install a loyalist who may influence the FBI’s investigative priorities, particularly against Trump’s political opponents.

Notable Quotes:

• Dan Pfeiffer [10:52]: "It is so a big deal what he is doing with the FBI... He actually undermined them by giving into Trump. Pure cowardice, in my opinion."
• Jon Favreau [14:15]: "He [Wray] has an obligation to let people know that he did a good job... If people don't care, then they're free not to care, but might as well tell that story."

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3. Corporate Donations and Democratic Alignment with Big Tech

Timestamp: [15:38] – [24:37]

Key Points:

• Major corporations and billionaires, including Mark Zuckerberg (Meta), Jeff Bezos (Amazon), and Elon Musk, are showing support for Donald Trump’s administration.
• Democrats are portrayed as becoming too accommodating to corporate interests, potentially alienating their base by collaborating with figures like Musk and Zuckerberg.
• The hosts express frustration over Democratic leaders praising and supporting these billionaires, viewing it as a betrayal of core values and a sign of increasing corporate influence in politics.

Notable Quotes:

• Jon Favreau [18:21]: "Meta his new pal Mark Zuckerberg would get $1.4 billion just for Meta from Trump's plan."
• Dan Pfeiffer [20:27]: "The corporations are, they're going to be Donald Trump's friend because Donald Trump's going to do what they want."

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4. Trump’s Proposed Corporate Tax Cuts

Timestamp: [28:56] – [35:07]

Key Points:

• Donald Trump announced plans to reduce the corporate tax rate to 15%, down from the 21% rate enacted in 2017.
• The proposed tax cuts are projected to benefit major corporations like Meta and UnitedHealth with substantial financial gains.
• Jon Favreau and Dan Pfeiffer critique these tax cuts, arguing they primarily benefit the wealthy and corporations rather than addressing the economic struggles of the average American.

Notable Quotes:

• Jon Favreau [30:37]: "Trump lowered the corporate rate to 21% from 35% in the 2017 tax cuts. Now he wants to lower it to 15%."
• Dan Pfeiffer [33:08]: "We have to show that this is the exact corruption that people... Trump is not fixing it. He's exacerbating it to help the rich at your expense."

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5. Trans Rights and the Nancy Mace Incident

Timestamp: [47:52] – [61:47]

Key Points:

• The episode discusses the contentious issue of trans rights, specifically focusing on Nancy Mace's reported assault following her stance on bathroom bills and trans advocacy.
• The hosts debate the authenticity of the incident, with Dan Pfeiffer suggesting it could be an attention-seeking stunt by Mace.
• This segment underscores the ongoing battle over trans rights in the political arena, highlighting the strategies employed by Republicans to undermine Democratic positions on human rights issues.

Notable Quotes:

• Jon Favreau [60:58]: "Nancy Mace... is now set on making sure everyone knows she's the real victim here."
• Dan Pfeiffer [61:00]: "Nancy Mace, looking for attention."

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6. Trump’s Time Person of the Year Interview

Timestamp: [64:25] – [66:50]

Key Points:

• Donald Trump was named Time’s Person of the Year and gave an extensive interview in which he defended his campaign strategy, claiming it was flawless.
• Trump attributed his victory to focusing on immigration as a more significant issue than the economy and branding the Republican Party as the party of common sense.
• The hosts critically analyze Trump’s claims, questioning his focus on issues like immigration over economic concerns like inflation, which were pivotal in the 2024 election.

Notable Quotes:

• Jon Favreau [63:09]: "We are doing it for you here. You do not have to go read this interview."
• Dan Pfeiffer [65:31]: "The Democrats became the party to some voters of out of touch extremism."

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Conclusion

Pod Save America's episode "Billionaires' Bet on Trump Pays Off" offers a critical examination of the interplay between corporate interests, political strategies, and the enduring influence of Donald Trump in American politics. Jon Favreau and Dan Pfeiffer highlight concerns over increasing corporate donations to Trump, strategic pardons by President Biden, and the potential corruption within the FBI under new leadership. The discussion also delves into the challenges Democrats face in reconnecting with their base while navigating issues like trans rights and economic policies. The hosts emphasize the need for Democrats to craft compelling, emotionally resonant narratives to counteract the pervasive influence of billionaires and to restore trust and authenticity within the party.

Notable Takeaways:

• President Biden's significant clemency actions signal a shift in criminal justice policies, with hopes for further reforms.
• The resignation of FBI Director Christopher Wray and the appointment of Cash Patel may indicate deeper issues of political influence within federal agencies.
• Corporate support for Trump, exemplified by donations from tech giants, raises concerns about the influence of money in politics and the potential alienation of Democratic voters.
• Trump’s proposed corporate tax cuts are critiqued as favoring the wealthy and corporations rather than addressing broader economic issues affecting ordinary Americans.
• The ongoing battle over trans rights remains a contentious and strategically exploited issue in the political landscape.
• Trump’s assertive claims about his campaign strategy and the Republican Party’s positioning require scrutiny, especially regarding his focus on immigration over economic concerns like inflation.

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Disclaimer: This summary omits advertisements, intros, outros, and non-content sections to focus solely on the substantive discussions within the episode.

Transcript

[Yara Shahidi]

Hey, I'm Yara Shahidi and I'm the host of the Optimist Project. This is the podcast that asks what gives you hope. Each week I sit down with change makers you may or may not know from comedy, music, academia and more to uncover what inspires them to create a better tomorrow. Join us as we find out ways that we can cultivate optimism in our own lives. You can find the Optimist Project wherever you get your podcasts. Don't forget to follow the show so you never miss an episode.

[John Lovett]

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[Jon Favreau]

But.

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[Jon Favreau]

Welcome to Pod Save America. I'm Jon Favreau.

[Dan Pfeiffer]

I'm Dan Pfeiffer.

[Jon Favreau]

On today's show, everyone seems to be doing the Trump dance. As FBI Director Christopher Wray goes down without a fight. Democrats start flattering Elon Musk And Mark Zuckerberg sponsors the inauguration. Trump, meanwhile, admits he might not be able to bring down prices after all during his big time man of the Year interview, an honor he celebrated at the New York Stock Exchange on Thursday by telling Wall street he'd cut their taxes. Welcome to your populist realignment, Dan. But first, we have some actual good news.

[Dan Pfeiffer]

No, stop.

[Jon Favreau]

It's real. I'm not. Not a joke.

[Dan Pfeiffer]

It's December 2024, right?

[Jon Favreau]

It is.

[Dan Pfeiffer]

It is.

[Jon Favreau]

Okay. All right.

[Dan Pfeiffer]

Cool.

[Jon Favreau]

Cool.

[Dan Pfeiffer]

It's been a while.

[Jon Favreau]

The White House announced on Thursday that President Biden made history by granting clemency to nearly 1500 people and pardoning 39 others, the largest single day clemency action in modern history. The 1500 number is people who had largely been living out lengthy sentences in home confinement because of the pandemic and already had been reintegrated in their communities. Those sentences were commuted. The 39 pardons went mostly to people convicted of nonviolent drug offenses when they were younger and who have since turned their lives around. What do you think of the move? Pretty good, huh?

[Dan Pfeiffer]

Love it. It's great. I was. I saw that this morning when I woke up way too early, as usual, and it was great news. And it's sort of what we've been waiting for. Like, every time you have a transition from the president of one party to the president of the next, the outgoing president furiously spends that last two months trying to get as much as they possibly can, fireproof their accomplishments, use the powers they have. And pardons is a big part of it. And it had felt for the last couple of weeks like that was not happening. I'm sure it was happening internally because you don't. They didn't just come up with these pardons yesterday like they've been working on this for a long time. But it was good to see sort of that outgoing use of power in a way that was consistent with the president's values and protecting people from a dangerous thing that's going to happen when Trump takes over.

[Jon Favreau]

In the statement, White House also said that there would be further action in the days to come. The Office of the Pardon Attorney, part of the Justice Department, has received nearly 12,000 requests for clemency during Mr. Biden's term. In 2022 and 2023, he pardoned anyone in federal prison for marijuana possession. He can also and has been urged to pardon or commute sentences of others convicted of nonviolent drug offenses who were in federal prison. Some people have urged him to commute sentences for the 40 people who were on death row in federal prison and reduce those sentences to life without parole so that they don't get the death penalty. So altogether, he has issued, I think, 26 individual pardons and 135 commutations. So what do you think? What do you think is gonna be next? What do you think should be next?

[Dan Pfeiffer]

I hope it's the 40 death row inmates. Joe Biden. This has kind of been lost history, but Joe Biden was the first modern president elected who was an opponent of the death penalty.

[Jon Favreau]

The upside of his Catholicism and a. But it's just, I say that because. I say that because he was obviously not as pro choice as he is now throughout most of his life, largely due to him being raised a Catholic.

[Dan Pfeiffer]

Obviously, There are only 40 inmates on federal on death row and federal penitentiaries. There's, you know, huge numbers of them in state prisons. But it would send a powerful signal to do that on his way out the door. So I certainly hope that that is something that is on the list of things they're actively considering over the last month here.

[Jon Favreau]

And it seems like from all kinds of reporting now since last time we talked about it, that he's still considering preemptive blanket pardons for some folks on Trump's enemies list. And Trump has now talked about the January 6th committee, talked about Jack Smith. So I guess we'll wait and see if he does that.

[John Lovett]

Did you see that?

[Dan Pfeiffer]

Benny Thompson said he'd take one?

[Jon Favreau]

I did see Benny Thompson. He'll take one. You know what? Which I respect all these people playing coy, you know, Adam Schiff being like, oh, I don't think it's a good idea. Yeah, Adam Schiff, don't.

[Dan Pfeiffer]

Don't give me a pardon. That's me winking for those listening to it on their phones.

[Jon Favreau]

I mean, not to dwell on this again, but it crossed my mind, since we were talking about pardons and commutations today, why do you think he didn't wait to do the Hunter pardon until after a move like this? We talked about this on a Tuesday show, and Tommy mentioned that he wanted to do the Hunter pardon before Hunter was sentenced, though, and I guess I understand that. Though you could also make an argument that after Hunter was sentenced, perhaps commuting the sentence altogether would have been received better. Our old pal Anita Dunn, who was one of the closest aides to Joe Biden for not just his presidency, but much of his career, she said recently at a New York Times Dealbook event, when she was asked about the Hunter Biden pardon, I don't agree with the way it was done. I don't agree with the timing, and I don't agree, frankly, with the attack on our judicial system. The argument is one, I think that many observers are concerned about a president who ran to restore the rule of law, who has upheld the rule of law, who has really defended the rule of law, kind of saying, well, maybe not right now.

[Dan Pfeiffer]

I thought a lot about how and why the White House did it this way, and I think it's pretty simple. We know all the people who work in the White House, they are very smart. They know exactly how shooting out the Hunter Biden pardon on its own before you pardon anyone else on a Sunday night at the end of Thanksgiving weekend is going to, before you jet off to Angola is going to look, which.

[Jon Favreau]

Is why I think most of them weren't involved.

[Dan Pfeiffer]

Yeah, well, I mean, he called the White House and said, this is what we're doing.

[Jon Favreau]

That's what I'm saying. No, I mean, most of the very smart White House staff that we know did not know until they didn't know.

[Dan Pfeiffer]

He had made the decision to do it. But I'm sure there's a conversation on rollout. Right. And the president came back from Thanksgiving with his family where they had a family meeting about this. Hunter was at that meeting. Hunter is staring down the barrel of going to prison soon. And the president makes a decision. He calls back and says, I've made this decision. And then they have a choice. Do they just do it right away before it leaks, or do they allow it to leak out there that he is thinking about it and then face a bunch of pressure? And so this is not how anyone would design. I think just it's a very. This is how the process worked. And it takes a long time to get 1300 commutations and pardons together. And that process was ongoing and not yet finished when he made this decision at Thanksgiving.

[Jon Favreau]

Yeah.

[Dan Pfeiffer]

So there's a plan that had it this way. It's just like this is how life unfolded. And this was a family issue. And one thing you always read in the reporting is on family stuff. No one argues. Biden calls the shots. And that's how this was.

[Jon Favreau]

And I mean, I won't criticize it all over again. I already did. I will say that these pardons and commutations, they do make me feel better about the whole thing.

[Dan Pfeiffer]

Yeah.

[Jon Favreau]

Of course. I also think that if he, like I said, issues, you know, these preemptive pardons and blanket pardons and makes them about sort of protecting people from political vengeance and retribution by Donald Trump. And the Hunter pardon sort of fits into that bucket. Then I feel even better, even though I'm, you know, disappointed that he lied to us. All right. Elsewhere in the justice system, there is less reason for celebration.

[Dan Pfeiffer]

We got that happiness out of the way. Let's.

[Jon Favreau]

Yeah. FBI Director Chris Wray announced Wednesday that he would step down at some point before Trump's inauguration on January 20, paving the way for Trump hatchet man Cash Patel to take over as head of the world's premier investigative agency. Ray said in his statement, quote, in my view, this is the best way to avoid dragging the bureau deeper into the fray while reinforcing the values and principles that are so important to how we do our work. A lot of folks aren't happy, to say the least. Jonathan Chait at the Atlantic, in a piece called A Scandalous Resignation, summed it up this way, quote, the President Elect had been facing the unpleasant task of firing a lifelong Republican whom he had selected himself, inviting the national media to raise ugly questions about his oft confessed desire to turn the federal criminal justice apparatus into a weapon of political vengeance. Instead, Wray, like so many Republicans who couldn't stomach Trump's demands, decided to go gentle into that good night. Nobody except Wray will remember where they were when Christopher Wray resigned. Ouch. I mean, you can sympathize with Ray, not wanting to just sit around and wait for Trump to fire him, but I don't know, what do you think? Was this the right move?

[Dan Pfeiffer]

Abso fucking lutely not. It just. The FBI position of FBI Director is one of the most powerful in this country. You have an army of investigators and law enforcement officers who work for you. It is so powerful that unlike the Department of Defense, the director of the CIA. Congress gave the FBI director 10 year non consecutive terms. So you can't amass too much power and you are insulated from the influence of individual presidents and members of Congress. And Donald Trump, for the second time now, is firing an FBI director. And this is a. In this case, he is doing it, and he wants to install a loyalist who has published an actual list of the enemies who he wants to prosecute. And that should be a big giant deal. And it's not going to be because Chris Wray just slouched off into retirement. And so instead you have to pick up the alternative scenario where Joe Biden leaves, Donald Trump is sworn in, he walks in the White House, and then he fires the FBI director who has years left on his term that was confirmed by the Senate to replace him with Catch Patel. But because Ray resigned when he, when he was trying to appoint Cash Patel, it's just going to seem like he's filling any other cabinet empty cabinet vacancy like all the rest of them. And it just, you can't. This is, it is a big deal what he is doing with the FBI. And Chris Wray made it seem like a lot less big deal. So he did not uphold any of those values and principles that he talked about. He actually undermined them by giving into Trump. Pure cowardice, in my opinion. Pure cowardice.

[Jon Favreau]

I think I agree just for the sake of argument.

[Dan Pfeiffer]

Oh, let's hear it.

[Jon Favreau]

No, I guess what benefit to the country or politically for those who oppose Trump would have come from Ray waiting, getting fired. And then Cash Patel gets the job anyway just a little bit later than he would have. And Donald Trump gets a couple days worth of very critical stories and commentary by all of us for firing the FBI director.

[Dan Pfeiffer]

In the end, if Cash Patel is going to be the FBI director in either way, it's not going to make a huge difference to the Benny Thompson's, Adam Schiff's, Anthony Fauci's of the world who are going to be investigated. But it is a chance to grab the nation's attention for just a moment to show how dangerous this is. Because as we're going to talk about on this podcast, we all ran around for a year and a half saying that Donald Trump was an existential threat to democracy. One of the reasons he was an existential threat to democracy is because every fucking morning before breakfast, he announced on Truth Social that he was going to investigate all of his political opponents, which we said was fascist and authoritarian and dangerous. And now he's doing that exact thing. And so many people, Chris Wray included, are sort of like, and maybe not that big a deal. And so if it is as big a deal as we think it is, and I imagine Chris Wray probably thinks it is, then you have to at least try to tell that story. And it makes it harder to tell that story. If you're just going to hand the keys of the FBI to Cash Patel as opposed to making Donald Trump take them from you and do it like this is what Preet did as U.S. attorney in New York. He made Trump fire him. And that was a big deal. And firing the FBI director is a huge deal. And it should get that attention and it won't because of Chris Wray.

[Jon Favreau]

My first reaction was sort of the way he left less about I'm quitting, you're firing me. And the difference between that and more about Chris Wray, I think has an obligation whether he does it after he leaves or now or if he had waited and got fired. But he has an obligation, I think, to let people know that he did a good job. And the reason he's being fired is because he carried out his duties to investigate the President of the United States for stealing classified information. And that's why they went to Mar a Lago and he, by the way, retrieved classified information that the president had stole, the ex president at that point had stolen and refused to give back and obstructed justice. Like I do think that a little bit a defense of the bureau and the bureau's actions over the last several years and just making sure people know that they played it pretty fucking straight over the last several years after he was appointed by Donald Trump and is a Republican himself. I do think he has an obligation just for the public to know that. And if people don't care, then they're free not to care, but might as well tell that story.

[Dan Pfeiffer]

I'm sure we'll get to read it in a book coming out in October 2025.

[Jon Favreau]

Maybe he can do a press conference with Jim Comey. Maybe they can.

[Dan Pfeiffer]

I'll send him an invite link to Substack, see if he can get started early.

[Jon Favreau]

Also, I think there and JVL made this point point in his newsletter today at the Bulwark that people who oppose Trump, or at least the people who want to defend our democratic institutions, anything they do to sort of delay Trump and his minions from doing what they want to do is a good thing. And so Cash Patel getting in earlier than he would have if we had to go through Chris Ray getting fired. You know, it's, it would have been nice. Would, would have been nice to Any delay tactics here are probably helpful. So that's don't I have not heard a really good argument for Chris Ray doing it the way he did, but maybe he'll speak up soon. One factor that seems to be making the Ray news tougher to swallow is that it's not just Ray. Obviously you and Melissa talked about Wednesday. Jack Smith also made the decision to resign rather than get fired. And in general, it seems like a lot of big players, corporations, media outlets, even some elected Democrats are employing a kinder, gentler approach to Trump's second term so far. Here's an incomplete accounting from just the last few days. Metta gave $1 million to Trump's inauguration after Mark Zuckerberg had dinner with trump. Amazon giving $1 million to. Thanks. Jeff Bezos, the CEO of Time, the magazine which just named Trump Person of the Year, accompanied him to the New York Stock Exchange and started clapping and chanting usa, usa. When Trump rang the bell. The fuck. Democratic Senator John Fetterman joined Truth Social and said that not only was the hunter Biden pardoned, correct, but that Trump deserves a pardon too for his conviction in the Manhattan case. And other Democrats like Congressman Richie Torres and Senator Richard Blumenthal have been praising Elon Musk with Blumenthal calling him the tech industry's, quote, champion of free speech. Ro Khanna has said he's been trading techs with Elon and called him an extraordinary entrepreneur. They said he also was clear with him where he disagreed. Fetterman compared Elon to Tony Stark. So a lot of cliches you could reach for here. If you can't beat him, join them. Discretion is the better part of valor. Better to be at the table than on the menu. What do you think is going on here? And obviously all the different people I just mentioned there, they could all have different motivations, there could be different degrees of kissing Donald Trump's ass and Elon Musk's ass. But what do you think is going on here?

[Dan Pfeiffer]

So let's probably try to separate this out into a couple groups. Yeah, there are corporations which are staring down the prospect of an all you can eat buffet of corporate greed under Donald Trump. Yeah, less taxes. We're getting to that, we're getting that. Less regulation. Just fucking pay to play left and right. And they are chomping at the bit. A lot of these are tech companies who like this, probably something with Meta who are. Have felt like they could not acquire other companies under Lina Khan's FTC because of Biden's very good antitrust policies. So the corporations are, they are, they're going to be Donald Trump's friend because Donald Trump's going to do what they want. And I think if they think and they know if you're friends with Donald Trump is just, he is like an old school corrupt politician. If you're friends with him, he will hook you up with some government contracts, some other stuff. Then you have Democrats who are trying to figure out how to deal with Elon Musk as a public figure, someone who is quite popular with a group of voters that we lost. Right. Namely young men. And that he, in understanding that he is a world famous, very successful business person and he has taken on a task. And I think that they are. And I think Ro Khanna in particular is probably pretty smart about this. And he has a relationship with Elon from long time in California. But I mean he was a Commerce Department appointee in the Obama administration when Elon was hoovering down solar tax credits for Tesla. But huge fan of the Recovery act that Elon Musk. I think the way we navigate the Doge Commission requires some deafness because what they are want to do at the service level is quite popular. Get rid of waste and fraud and abuse in government. Like everyone agrees with that. And so you want to be in the situation where you promise you're agreeing to work with them and then when they come back with all their Social Security cuts and their elimination of Department of Education, then you hammer them. And so I think that's the appropriate way there. I don't know what I can't speak to what John Fetterman's doing. I don't really understand the going on. True Social that is fine. Gavin Newsom did that a long time ago.

[Jon Favreau]

That doesn't bother me.

[Dan Pfeiffer]

Offering suggesting Trump get a pardon. That seems primarily like trolling. I don't really get that. But. And then I think there is this other thing that I think we all have to remind ourselves as we think about the next four years. We are never running against Donald Trump again. Yeah, he is not our opponent. The first four years of Trump was about every single day trying to increase the likelihood that we could beat him in the 2020 election. And we succeeded. Not as well as we would like, but we did succeed because he's back. But this time we have a different set of tasks. So we don't necessarily have to if we agree with Trump on something that is popular, it is okay to agree with him and then like take that issue off the table. Like we don't have to oppose him on every single thing if it is an area of potential agreement. We also don't have to chase him down every rabbit hole. Right. We can. Our task is not to beat Trump. It is to rebuild our brand and then separate the new Trump coalition from the Republican Party that comes after Trump. And so we have to think with that mentality. And that does mean it's just a very different approach than Resistance 1.0.

[Jon Favreau]

My critique is with none of that. And I don't think that what you just said is necessarily reflective of what any of these fucking characters are doing or saying right now.

[Dan Pfeiffer]

I think Roe is my exception to this.

[Jon Favreau]

Right. Roe is the exception. But I even think that you don't need to call Elon Musk anything nice at all to be willing to play ball with the Doge thing and putting out a list of reforms that you want. I mean, I was saying this. I think the Democrats should put out their own list before Elon and Vivek have their own list and make it about the corporate subsidies. We want to get rid of the tax breaks. We want to get rid of other waste and abuse that we're comfortable getting rid of. Like, let's do our own thing, and then when they don't agree to it, then we can hit them over it. Right? Like, let's be constructive on policy and governing when we agree, and let's be really tough on policy and governing when we disagree. But, like, we don't have to say nice fucking things about these people. We don't have to kiss Trump's. We don't have to. We shouldn't chase Trump down every rabbit hole, for sure. We also don't need to fucking kiss his ass. And also, it's like, do you think.

[Dan Pfeiffer]

Democrats are kissing his ass?

[Jon Favreau]

No, no, no. Not Trump. Elon Musk stuff is like Dick Blumenthal.

[Dan Pfeiffer]

That's crazy. I don't understand.

[Jon Favreau]

He's a champion of free speech. He's not a champion of free speech.

[Dan Pfeiffer]

There is a moment when you lose election. Everyone loses their fucking mind for like, 90 days. And they do dumb shit, right? They overreact.

[Jon Favreau]

Mark Zuckerberg, like, that's different. There are few humans more full of shit than Mark Zuckerberg for, like, all of the values he professed that Facebook had and that his company has and all this bullshit. It's like, Donald Trump attempted a coup. He attempted a coup. He attempted. He incited a violent insurrection. All these people. How many companies after January 6th were like, never again. We're not going to donate to. Some of them said they were going to donate to Republicans after that.

[Dan Pfeiffer]

Yeah, People believe a big lie.

[Jon Favreau]

And here's the. I would not have even been this annoyed if over the fact that Zuckerberg sat down with Trump and had dinner. Like, okay, you want to have dinner? He's the president states, you run one of the biggest companies in the world. Like, fine, make peace, whatever. Donate $1 million to inauguration when Metta has not donated money to any other inauguration. Now you're, like, in the Trump business now. You're just giving him money. You're not just, like, not saying mean things about him or even saying nice things. You're giving him money.

[Dan Pfeiffer]

A million dollars. I mean, it just.

[Jon Favreau]

It's so fucking. It's disgusting.

[Dan Pfeiffer]

Like, obviously the thing that Mark Zuckerberg cares about most in the world is power and money. But if there was anything else he cared about, it was immigration reform. He started the group Forward Us. He has given money to this. He's talked about it, and now he just gave a million dollars to someone who was on TV over the weekend talking about deporting millions of people from this country.

[Jon Favreau]

It is. It's outrageous. It's so. It's like. It's just. What is wrong with you? You have no self respect. No self respect. It's just crisis. And also the Elon Musk thing, too. Like, he's Tony Stark. He's successful. Like, the thing that bothers me about that is like, yes, Elon Musk is rich. He's worth $400 billion. Congratulations, I guess. But, like, do we not remember? It wasn't that long ago that he pushed a conspiracy online, said that he agreed with a conspiracy, that Jewish communities push hatred against white people. Like, just said so much truth. Yes, truth. When someone tweeted that the conspiracy that then led a bunch of advertisers to stop advertising on Twitter because it was the same conspiracy that led the Tree of Life shooter to massacre a bunch of people. And now we're going to be like, oh, yeah. But you know what? He's like, Tony Stark, he's a really smart guy, really smart guy, really successful. Antisemitic conspiracy theories, really successful again. It's just as easy to be like, elon Musk wants to cut government. You don't have to say anything about him. I got a list of things for him to cut. And if he. And if he puts something on the table that's worth cutting. Yeah, I'm right there with him. He wants, like, Bernie, he wants to cut defense spending. Yeah, I'm there for cutting defense spending, too. I'll work with him on that. You don't have to say nice things about him.

[Dan Pfeiffer]

It just. I really. I want to emphasize this point. Everyone loses their fucking mind when they lose an election. It's like a period of time. Go back and look what all the Republicans did after Obama won reelection. John Boehner went out the next day and said Obamacare is the law of the land. And then Sean Hanning endorse immigration reform. Like, they lose their minds. And the Democrats are we. They. We. Everyone is reeling and making a bunch of dumb decisions. And these manifest themselves in some of the examples you just gave.

[John Lovett]

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[Jon Favreau]

Pod Save America is brought to you by Helix. Getting a good night's sleep is key. Feeling your best, but it's not always easy. Sleep better and wake up refreshed with a Helix mattress. Helix mattresses are designed to fit your unique sleep needs, offering the perfect balance of comfort and support for a restful night. And you can take the Helix Sleep quiz on their website to find the perfect one for you. Love Helix Mattresses. We have one in our guest room and Charlie's. My son Charlie's first mattress ever was a Helix mattress and I am on that quite a bit too because I end up tucking in Charlie and then sitting in bed with them for a half hour every single night. And you know what? I fall asleep in it almost every time because the Helix mattress is so incredibly comfortable. It is an upgrade from all the old mattresses that we used to have. Now here is a special offer for our listeners. When you visit helixsleep.com crooked, you can get 27% off site wide and two free dream pillows with any mattress purchase. And any luxe or elite mattress order comes with a free bedding bundle which is two dream pillows, a sheet set and mattress Protector. Visit helixsleep.com crooked now and start shopping. We do have one pretty good clue as to why the corporate types seem to be coming around so quickly. You mentioned this. It came at 9:30am Eastern Time on Thursday as Trump opened trading at the stock exchange. Let's listen. We're cutting your taxes. We're going to cut them very substantially. We got them down to 21% from probably 42 or 44%, depending on where you are. And we got them down to 21.

[Dan Pfeiffer]

Everyone said that was a miracle.

[Jon Favreau]

Now we're getting them down to 15, but only if you make your product here. Now, I didn't see this footage, but was the audience of people he was saying that to at the New York Stock Exchange? Was that a group of working class voters who were upset with high grocery prices? Is that who he was talking to?

[Dan Pfeiffer]

No, it was a collection of CEOs and stock traders. Yeah, yeah.

[Jon Favreau]

Oh, those are the taxes he wants to cut? Yes. Yes, those are the taxes he wants to cut. So Trump lowered the corporate rate to 21% from 35% in the 2017 tax cuts. Now he wants to lower it to 15%. He says he wants to do it 15%. There's a new twist on it with, like, if you, if you invest in America, if you do business here, I don't know how that works, but in general, a 15% corporate tax rate would give the largest 10 companies in America a $23 billion tax cut for 10 companies that reported more than $520 billion in profits. This was a cap analysis over the summer. Meta his new pal Mark Zuckerberg would get $1.4 billion just for Metta from Trump's plan. United Health. Have you heard about UnitedHealth lately? UnitedHealth would get $1.3 billion, a tax cut and five largest grocery companies because of. Obviously, Trump was elected to lower prices for people. That's what he told us. But he does want to give the five largest grocery companies 1.7 billion in tax cuts. These are five grocery companies that made $29 billion in profits as a bunch of people could not afford their groceries. And now he wants to give them another $1.7 billion. You think they're going to use that $1.7 billion tax cut to lower the cost of food so people can buy their groceries? Probably right.

[Dan Pfeiffer]

Isn't that what happened when they did this exact same thing in 2017 and cut the groceries then?

[Jon Favreau]

Yeah, they passed the savings onto their.

[Dan Pfeiffer]

Consumers and they hired lots of people and. No, no, wait, wait. CEO bonuses and stock buybacks.

[Jon Favreau]

That's right. That's right.

[Dan Pfeiffer]

Yes.

[Jon Favreau]

So that is what Trump promised. Now, we knew this during the campaign. I think Kamala hit Trump on this a few times. The corporate tax cut obviously did not work, or at least it did not work well enough. What is your advice here to Democrats on how to make it stick in the next year in a way that we did not do as successfully as we could have during the campaign?

[Dan Pfeiffer]

She did mention, you said the operative word here was she hit him on it a few times. And there were a lot of ads on it. There wasn't the most. The ad that Future for the super PAC spent the most money on was on this very topic. It was called the Buddy ad, and it had a guy watching an iPad of Trump saying to the people at the donors at Mar a Lago, you're rich as hell and I'm going to cut your taxes. And then went on to say what Kamala Harris was going to do to raise taxes on billionaires. But it was never a centerpiece of the campaign. It never was a defining issue. We can never make it stick. And that, I think, has more to do with the Short Runway. The Harris campaign had maybe just the dominance of inflation as an issue that it didn't stick. Like, I do not take the fact that Trump won as evidence that all of a sudden tax cuts for corporations are popular. Far from it. And I think this is our best bet to really begin to make some cracks in the Trump coalition. Right? People elected Trump to lower their costs. And so our message is pretty clear. Trump is not lowering your costs. He's cutting taxes for the wealthy and corporations, the very companies who are making billions of dollars by jacking up prices on your groceries and your gas. He's going to give them a tax cut and you're not going to get. And he's not trying to help you, he's trying to help them. And then there's a second element of this which I think is important, which is we have to make this all seem like, as it is, giant fucking corruption. You have him promising it to his donors. You have a bunch of billionaires who are going to benefit from these working in the government. You have Trump himself working in it. You have companies given $1 million the inauguration who are going to get huge benefits. Like, we have to show that this is the exact corruption that people. Trump said he was going to fix. And now he is not fixing it. He's exacerbating it to help the rich at your expense. And so, and then the last piece of this is, how is this all going to get paid for in the end? It's going to add trillions of dollars to deficit, and Elon Musk and Vivek are going to want to pay for it by cutting Social Security, Medicare and getting rid of the Affordable Care Act. Is that what we're going to do? And so I think those are sort of the three steps there.

[Jon Favreau]

I totally agree with all that. I also think we've got to be able to make this real for people and tell stories about it that are not just sort of the typical, he's given tax cuts to the rich and not you. That's the message. But we've got to sort of add some color to the message so that it breaks through. I think a fair lot of critiques from the left about Kamala Harris and the campaign and all this. We've heard them all. We're not going to do it all here. I think one that is fair is, I don't think she is someone who, like, feels the, the populist anger towards, like, companies that are price gouging and taking advantage of people and making record profits while people can barely get by. Like, she doesn't really feel that in her bones. At least that doesn't come across during the campaign. I realize it was a short campaign, and to be fair, you don't get that from a lot of Democrats. And, you know, I don't know which podcast I said this on, but I've been complaining about the glorification of and the hero status awarded to Luigi Mangione. But I also think there is a, A large space between that and saying, eh, whatever. Rich people are rich people. Healthcare companies make profits. That's what they do, right? Like, I do think that people should be going out, Democrats should be going out there every day talking about these companies that are gonna get a huge fucking windfall for nothing, who have been gouging consumers, raising prices in a country where people are really struggling to get by with their costs. And, like, tell a story about it every single day, make it the message over and over and over again. And you've got to be creative and you got to figure out ways to break through, and you can't just be saying the same fucking words over and over again that seem like they came from a poll that tested really well. Like, you've got to really, you know, make it, make it real for folks. And so that's what I'm kind of hoping Democrats do in this fight. Like, it's not enough to just do the same old, same old.

[Dan Pfeiffer]

One simple way to do that is to juxtapose the tax rates of these corporations with the tax rates of people, right? That, yeah, Walmart's going to pay a lower tax rate than the people who work at Walmart or shop at Walmart. And I know I could already hear our fucking econ policy buddy saying it's totally unfair to compare individual and corporate tax rates, but I do not care. Go on another podcast, complain about that. All right?

[Jon Favreau]

People think it's like, it's the corporate money that's doing this and it's the donors that have captured the Democrats. It's like, no, it's like the fucking wonks. No, that's not the reason. We know. We know all the reasons why. You know that. We know that corporate greed is not the only reason that people are struggling to get by. We know that, but it is disgusting that people are getting tax breaks, CEOs, executives, shareholders, when so many people are struggling and we're still dealing with high prices. That it's fucking, it's. It's crazy. So. But, like, it should feel crazy to the Democrats going out there and talking about it, and it should feel like it is a mission and that they are, like, offended on behalf of the American people by it. And that's the kind of energy I think we need in this fight.

[Dan Pfeiffer]

The people who decided this election for Trump did not send him to Washington to cut taxes for corporations. They're going to be fucking shocked. That's one of the first things he does.

[Jon Favreau]

Well, look, I've seen the polling on this, right? Like tax cuts for the 1% for billionaires. Like, they are less popular sometimes than corporate tax cuts. Because what they try to do when they talk about corporate tax cuts is say, well, it's a lot of small businesses, and when you give them tax cuts, then they create jobs. And so if corporations are doing well, then they hire more people and then wages go up and, like, they do this whole fucking song and dance. I really think you got to hammer the fact that, like, we're talking about some of the most profitable corporations in the country who last time they got this tax cut, used it to enrich their executives and their shareholders, and did not do anything about prices and did not hire more people and did not raise wages.

[Dan Pfeiffer]

Like one of the thing, we can do 17 podcasts, and we will do 17 podcasts on the corporate tax fight on the larger tax. But one thing Democrats can do is you pick an income level by which you agree to extend them, but anything below X you're going to extend and then you make the. Which is what eventually happened with Obama and the Bush tax cuts. And then the fight becomes about anything above that number. And so, like, we'd say we'd pass it tomorrow that everyone who makes under $300,000 a year, I'm just picking number out of, out of the sky, that's tax extended. But anything above that, they're fighting over that. And so you got to isolate the fight for the very, very wealthy in the corporations.

[Jon Favreau]

Yeah, I agree. Well, speaking of that. So part of the time Person of the year routine is you sit down for a lengthy interview with the magazine, which Trump did at Mar a Lago in late November. It just was released on Thursday, so it's a little dated, but interview is very long. Most of it wasn't very newsy, but few notable things we hadn't heard before. At one point, the reporters asked Trump, quote, if the prices of groceries don't come down, will your presidency be a failure? And his answer, I don't think so. Look, they got them up. I'd like to bring them down. It's hard to Bring things down once they're up, you know, it's very hard. And then he goes on to talk about his solutions, which are just fixing the supply chain, which Joe Biden has been doing for the last four years, and lowering energy costs, which is, involves drilling more for oil. That won't do anything to lower gas prices for years if they start drilling now, because also we're producing more oil than any time in history. Kind of a wow moment there. Trump saying, I don't know if prices will actually go down. We find out on the day that he goes to the stock exchange and is like, but your taxes are going down Wall Street.

[Dan Pfeiffer]

That's the juxtaposition right there. Right. Which is he's not going to lower, he's not going to lower your costs, but he's going to lower the taxes for the wealthy and the corporations. Like that's sort of where you sit there. It's like it's not a wow moment for people who took like two semesters of econ, but it is, it runs. But we should make absolute hay of it because it's what he promised. He promised he would lower costs and we have to hammer him when costs do not go down. They will continue to go up. They always do. And we make that point, make them own it. Right?

[Jon Favreau]

Yeah. And I think we need a, we need to come out with some plans of our own to lower costs for people and do so in a way that is, you know, achievable real, that are paid for that, you know, isn't just government spending money, but also sort of regulating companies and making companies actually like do well by their workers. Right. Like, I think that there's a, like a good progressive populist agenda here that also makes sense to most Americans that we should be pushing here. But I don't know. What do you think?

[Dan Pfeiffer]

I don't know what the answer. Yeah, we should have plans. Sure, we should absolutely have plans. But we need a simple idea that would also probably anger the econ nerds, but that I think it's something that we don't understand the power of symbolism in our ideas and we're more focused on the substance. It's like, yes, we're going to have a 12 point plan and it's going to do all these things. It's just like, you know, like Trump building the long to pay for it. Like the voters know that that was an absurd thing, but it sent a signal about them. So what? Like the, the wealth tax was an example of an idea that is, tells a story about who you are more than the specifics of the policy. And so I think we need some things like that. I mean, Congress is enforcing the law against companies. That price gouge, which I know she sort of backed away from for parts of the campaign, was one of those things, right, where it's like, it's not going to pass your Brookings test over, is it going to solve all the problems, blah, blah, blah. But it sent a signal about who she is and what she would fight for. And I think we need to sort of think in some big picture, less white, papery ideas on how to do this.

[Jon Favreau]

Well, I think part of it is these ideas need to be paired with, like, who we're holding accountable, because I think that sometimes it's just like a. It's a positive agenda, which is great, but I think it feels more urgent and is more appealing to people. When you also talk about how, you know, these big companies and CEOs and everyone are, like, making money hand over fist and are more profitable than ever before, and you're still struggling, and so we're going to help you, blah, blah, blah, and make sure that they're paying their fair share, blah, blah, you know, yeah, we need.

[Dan Pfeiffer]

We need an enemy.

[Jon Favreau]

Reporters asked Trump whether it's a conflict of interest to let Elon Musk oversee the budgets of agencies that could grant huge contracts to his businesses. Trump said, I don't think so, and added, I think that Elon puts the country long before his company. I mean, he's in a lot of companies, but he really is, and I've seen it. Okay, you think this matters to people? Elon's getting to regulate his own businesses, and some of his budget cuts might affect his biggest competitor, NASA. Like what?

[Dan Pfeiffer]

I think there is a chance that people think Elon is so rich that he doesn't care about money. They sort of feel that way about Trump in some ways, but I think that I don't think we should accept that premise of that argument. And I believe that our best argument against Trump and Republicans is corruption. It's all corrupt. This is so fucking corrupt that the richest man in the world spent over $100 million to get Donald Trump, $200 million to get Trump elected, and is now going to get billions of dollars in tax cuts and gets to pick the people who regulate his companies. Like, tell that story. And you can go down the line with all of Trump's appointees, the people who are in and out of government, David Sachs, who invests in all kinds of companies, being in The AI and crypto czar. All of these things that tell that, like this really is. You know, I don't know if you listen to Rahm Emanuel on Ezra's podcast.

[Jon Favreau]

I'm, I'm, it's, I'm almost at the end.

[Dan Pfeiffer]

You're taking a small dose. It's been out for weeks. You're just doing it. I think you told me you were busy.

[Jon Favreau]

I've been doing a lot of stuff.

[Dan Pfeiffer]

Yeah, you just like, I can only take ROM in seven minute doses at a time, so it's gonna take me.

[Jon Favreau]

Basically, yes. Rom used like, I'm at the part where Rom, you know, is talking about The Bill Clinton 1992 New Hampshire. The Hits I've taken are nothing like the hits your family here now you're.

[Dan Pfeiffer]

About three minutes away from a Obama reference. It's going to feel equally dated to a lot of people who listen to this podcast.

[Jon Favreau]

Cool, cool, cool, great.

[Dan Pfeiffer]

But ROM used the term that the Oval Office is ebay. Now. That is not the term I would use also.

[Jon Favreau]

So, Rom, that's such a line.

[Dan Pfeiffer]

It's like a 90s term.

[Jon Favreau]

Yeah, but that is. The gala gave him that line. Right?

[Dan Pfeiffer]

That is the image. He might have given that line in 1998. But the image that we want to do, that we want to sell is that these people are all fucking corrupt, that they are all making money hand over fist at your expense. You got all these rich people in there doing it. They're getting tax cuts for themselves, they're picking the regulators. They're getting away with stuff you could never get away with. And if we can tell that story vividly, I think we really do have a chance to reverse the politics on a lot of this.

[Jon Favreau]

I think there's something that we need to add to the corruption message, because I think if you told most Americans that Trump and all of his goons in the White House are using it to enrich themselves, but also you're getting richer too, and your costs are going down, or you're getting a tax cut or you're getting something, then people will be like, yeah, it's not great that they're doing that. But honestly, kind of figured that was the case when we elected them. And I'm getting my. It almost goes back to the, the famous ad, you know, Kamala's for they, them and Donald Trump's for you. Like, we've got to make it seem, which is going to be the reality that Donald Trump and Elon Musk and all these idiots, they're just there for themselves. They are just there to take care of themselves. Their businesses, their people and everyone else is getting screwed. Like that's the corruption, I think that really gets people pissed. And not just the like, yeah, we're making a lot of money, but so are you. Everyone's making money. It's great.

[Dan Pfeiffer]

Well, I mean, that's where the, that's where the prices matter, right? If yes, the crumpian message is going to matter more. Just like people turn against the wealthy like in Occupy Wall street, they turn against the poor and people on government assistance in times of economic strife. And if the prices really don't go down and people continue to be angry, to sad about the economy, they're going to have much less tolerance for these guys fucking throwing parties for themselves in the, in the Oval Office with just lighting money on fire.

[Jon Favreau]

Yeah. Okay, we're going to take a quick break. A couple things before we do that though. You've heard us talk about Crooked's limited Empire City, the untold origin story of the nypd. It's been getting some really amazing year end reviews. If you haven't started it, now's a perfect time. In just eight episodes, Empire City takes you back to the origins of the NYPD and completely reframes the way we think about policing today. You can listen to the series now wherever you get your podcasts, or you can binge all episodes ad free on one replace and the One app or an Apple podcast. Also, Tommy recently joined Brian Tyler Cohen on his show no Lie with Brian Tyler Cohen to talk about Trump's Cabinet picks, Democrats path forward, and lots more. Plus, exciting update. No Lie is now an official partner of the Crooked network. How great is that?

[Dan Pfeiffer]

That's exciting.

[Jon Favreau]

Love. I know. We love btc. You can hear Tommy and Brian's conversation in all episodes wherever you get your podcasts. This is an advertisement from BetterHelp. The holiday season is, as they say, the most wonderful time of the year. It can be filled with joy and happiness, but it can also be the most stressful time of the year. Scheduling conflicts, added expenses, family dynamics and drama can all take a toll. So it's important to slow down and not lose sight of your mental well being. Therapy is a great way to do just that. Not only during this stressful time of the year, but all year long. And BetterHelp online therapy is a great way to get into therapy. BetterHelp is designed to be convenient, flexible and built around your schedule. Just fill out a brief questionnaire to get matched with a credentialed therapist that fits your needs and preferences. Once matched, you can connect via phone, video, text or chat. Whatever works for you. It's surprisingly affordable too. So this holiday season, give yourself a gift you can appreciate all year round. Therapy is important. Obviously it's been a stressful, stressful time, stressful couple weeks, stressful couple months, stressful year, nine years. It's a great gift to yourself to go to therapy and talk with someone about it. It's really helpful. Visit betterhelp.com PSA today to get 10% off your first month. That's BetterHelp H E L P.com PSA.

[John Lovett]

Pod Save America is brought to you by GiveWell. You like to optimize things. You've chosen the perfect credit card to maximize your travel points. Shouldn't you handle your charitable giving the same way? GiveWell spends 50,000 hours every year doing deep dives into charitable programs to try to find the ways to do the most good for your dollar. Over 100,000 donors have used GiveWell to donate more than $2 billion. Rigorous evidence suggests that these donations will save over 200,000 lives and improve the lives of millions more. GiveWell wants as many donors as possible to make informed decisions about high impact giving. You can find all of their research and recommendations on their site for free. You can make tax deductible donations to the recommended funds or charities and GiveWell doesn't take a cut. Go to givewell.org to find out more or make a donation. Select Podcast and enter Pod Save America at checkout to make sure they know you heard about them from us. Again, that's givewell.org to donate or find out more and then select Podcast and enter Pod Save America at checkout to make sure they know we sent you.

[Jon Favreau]

Pod Save America is brought to you by Aura Frames. If you are still looking for a Christmas gift, a holiday gift, something for people in your life, think about an Aura frame. It is a great, great gift, especially for those grandparents who are looking for pictures of the grandkids. Isn't it funny how the people we love most are often the hardest to shop for? Luckily, Aura Frames is the gift that everyone on your list is sure to enjoy. It's named number one by Wirecutter. Aura Frames make it incredibly easy to share unlimited photos and videos directly from your phone to the frame. And when you give an Aura Frame as a gift, you can personalize and preload it with a thoughtful message and photos using the Aura app, making it an ideal present for long distance loved ones. These frames are great used an Aura frame. Given an aura frame and it's easy to set up, easy to keep changing the pictures so it's a presence. Just lasts and lasts and lasts. It's fantastic. Save on the perfect gift by visiting aura frames.com to get $35 off Aura's bestselling carver Matte frames by using promo code crooked at checkout. That's a U R A frames.com promo code CROOKED. This deal is exclusive to listeners, so get yours now in time for the holidays. Terms and conditions apply. One of the exchanges that got the most attention was a question about trans rights and so called bathroom bills. The reporters reminded Trump that He said in 2016 that trans people should be able to use whatever bathroom they want and asked whether he still felt that way. And Trump said, quote, I don't want to get into the bathroom issue because it's a very small number of people we're talking about and it's ripped apart our country. And he added, we're talking about a very small number of people and we're talking about it and it gets massive coverage and it's not a lot of people. Reporters then brought up the House bill to ban Sarah McBride from women's bathrooms. But instead of asking whether he supported that bill, they asked whether he agreed with Sarah that we should focus on bigger issues. And he said yes. And then they asked about the anti trans ad that the campaign ran. And he didn't take the bait there either. What did you think about his answers on this?

[Dan Pfeiffer]

Do you remember in the primary when Trump would go to rallies and he would be like, every time I bring up the trans issue, you guys all applaud. So I keep bringing it up, right? Like he was sort of mystified by the power of it. Well, I just. So I think it is something that he has followed the. Unlike immigration, this is not an issue that has been a long cause of his. He just is sort of following the applause in the room. I think it's fucking gross to say, oh, it doesn't matter. Oh, it's not a big issue after you mentioned it all the fucking time on the campaign trail in the, in the grossest, most bigoted way possible. I generally think he also was probably surprised to be reminded that he said that about bathrooms in 2016 or whenever he said that. And so he's just now trying to square all the circles in his little head that I was right then, I'm right now. And then they gave him an obvious out. By the way, they asked the question about the Sarah McBride statement. So he could just push it. Pushing both aside. And I not really have to answer.

[Jon Favreau]

I will say, like, even if Donald Trump himself does not want to spend a lot of time focusing on trans rights and not a lot of time, you know, beating up on trans people like he did during the campaign, cynically, I do think this is an issue that's going to come to him and Democrats are going to have to still deal with. It's not just a, oh, we're going to argue about it, pass the campaign, we're going to argue about it in the context of the campaign kind of thing. I spoke to a Rolling Stone reporter, Jal Holzman, who wrote it's a really great piece that everyone should. And it's an important piece that everyone should read about how this is going to come up in Congress, which is that Republicans want to do a Hyde like amendment that will withhold government funding from any healthcare provider that gets money from the federal government to make sure that they do not provide any gender affirming care. So just like now, the Hyde Amendment is, you know, federal money cannot go to any provider, any hospital that performs abortions. That's why a lot of hospitals do not perform abortions, why they're abortion clinics, because of the Hyde Amendment. And they want to do something like that for gender affirming care. And the question will be like, do enough Democrats stand up and stop this? And I think it could not just be done through reconciliation. I think you would need to overcome a filibuster in the Senate to actually get this done. Because that's the same thing with the Hyde Amendment. You can't get rid of that through reconciliation either. So you can't just do 51 votes in a budget bill. So I think we would have votes to stop it. But you could imagine the argument from Republicans and then you can see what Trump will do, which would be, you know, well, no, taxpayers shouldn't fund gender affirming care. Taxpayers shouldn't do this. And what do you think? Like, how do you think Democrats respond to that? Because I think this is one where fuck the polls on this. Like, we just, that is, you got to stand up for it. And I think what we have to do is figure out a way to message it so that it is as popular as possible, even knowing that it may not be a majority position and that they might think that this is a wedge issue that does that helps.

[Dan Pfeiffer]

Them politically, I think, and this goes to one of the lessons of how trans issues played out in the campaign, which is you have to engage, you can't ignore them. And you have to engage by going bigger because when you get to the bigger issues of human rights and civil rights and treating people with tolerance, we have the high side of the argument, both morally, obviously, but also politically. And when Republicans are able to narrow focus it around sports teams, bathrooms, taxpayer funded surgeries, in the infamous ad, then they often win that. And so we should absolutely take it on. It would be so demoralizing to people in our party if Senate Democrats were unwilling to use the filibuster to stand up to protect us. So we absolutely cannot do it.

[Jon Favreau]

And I will say for, you know, in the piece, Holzman, you know, was expressing the concern of a lot of activists and groups that like, maybe, you know, there's not enough Democrats to stand up on this. I do think the one, the one silver lining of the Democratic caucus right now in the Senate, which is, it's quite safe. It's quite safe. I was gonna say it is more we lost Manchin, we lost cinema, we also lost the majority. But the people left are like mainstream to progressive. You know, like we don't have a lot of centrists and center right folks in the caucus anymore. And so I do expect that the senators will stand. But it's something, but it's something that's coming and people should prepare for it so that they don't just, it doesn't surprise everyone. And you know, and then just.

[Dan Pfeiffer]

I agree with that. I do. Maybe, maybe this is naive on my part, but I do believe that Senate Democrats would fight, would stop this. The other thing is what Donald Trump says on trans issues is also not that important because what you have to really watch is what's going to happen in his administration.

[Jon Favreau]

Yes.

[Dan Pfeiffer]

With Project 2025, which basically compared being trans to pornography. And just a series of very dangerous policies are likely to be implemented whether Trump wants to have the issue or have the conversation or not. And we're going to have to fight every single one of those that we can politically at the ballot box legally, et cetera.

[Jon Favreau]

Well, and this, this is an issue that's come up right now even before Trump takes office, because the defense authorization bill, Mike Johnson slipped in a provision that said the children of service members are not allowed to get gender affirming care through the coverage that their parents get by being in the military. Most Democrats in the House revolted against this. Obviously we didn't have the votes because the Republicans control the House. So now that goes to the Senate. And you know, I don't I don't know what's going to happen there, but this is the kind of. These are the kind of things that they're going to try to do. They're going to try to chip away at trans rights and gender affirming care bit by bit, and then I think, test Democrats to see if they stand up for it. And if they do, then say, oh, see, they're still obsessed with the trans issue. They lost on it and they're still obsessed with it. Like that's what they're going to do.

[Dan Pfeiffer]

This is one of the things. There aren't a lot of benefits to being a minority, but one of them is that you can just do the right thing sometime.

[Jon Favreau]

Yeah, that is correct. That is correct. Speaking of the House bathroom bill and its sponsor, Congresswoman Nancy Mace of South Carolina, Mace is now set on making sure everyone knows she's the real victim here. On Tuesday, she spoke at an event for foster care providers and alumni in one of the House office buildings. This is a wild story. A foster care advocate apparently came up to her after she spoke and said something about how trans kids need advocacy to. What happened next is disputed, but a police report says that this person, quote, began to aggressively and in an exaggerated manner shake her arm up and down in a handshaking motion. The police report was filed by Nancy Mason, her staff. So this is their side of the story. The advocate has pleaded not guilty to misdemeanor assault. Some of the people in the room say they didn't see anything out of the ordinary, just a handshake. Regardless, Mesa is now wearing her arm in a sling and making a big thing of it, publicly reassuring her many fans about her odds of survival and so on. She went on Benny Johnson's show Sling in Full Effect to accuse trans people of having a mental illness. If I didn't have a medical degree, I don't know if I would be accusing other people of having a mental illness if I was Nancy Mace, but that's just me. What do you think's going on here? Is this just like. I mean, I guess reporters have requested the security footage. So, like, we're gonna find out what the handshake was like at some point. And, you know, maybe Nancy Mace, famous truth teller, is just telling the truth about being assaulted with a violent handshake. It's totally possible. Nancy Mace, but it's possible that it's also possible that maybe she was looking for attention. Who knows?

[Dan Pfeiffer]

Nancy Mace, looking for attention.

[Jon Favreau]

It's crazy. I am not accusing her of that. I just Want you to know, I'm saying it is a possibility that that could be one of the outcomes. It is also possible that she. That someone came up and asked her a question and violently assaulted her hand.

[Dan Pfeiffer]

That is a common technique for injury. Is that is the old handshake switcheroo? Yes.

[Jon Favreau]

If I've seen it once, I've seen.

[Dan Pfeiffer]

It a hundred times, I would just say, look, I. As a person who waits for the facts, I will. I anxiously await the security footage to be released, probably directly to Benny Johnson or Tucker Carlson or someone like that.

[Jon Favreau]

It'll be the January 6th footage that Mike Johnson has been sitting on that.

[Dan Pfeiffer]

Nancy Mace has a long history of stunts to get attention, and so this would not be out of line.

[Jon Favreau]

One of her former staffers posted on Twitter, this is the same woman who told staff, myself included, during January 6th that she wanted to get punched in the face by a rioter so she could get on TV and be the face of the anti Trump movement. That's back when she wanted to be a part of the anti Trump movement and was so mad at him for the riot on January 6, she wanted to get punched in the face. That story was first reported in the Washington Post, and that's now her former staffer confirming it on Twitter. So that's Nancy Mace. One last thing. In the Time interview before we go, they asked Trump all about his thoughts on his campaign strategy, the campaign in general, why he won, why Harris lost. He said his campaign was flawless. He didn't take any days off in the last 72 days. He called it. He's got a name for it. He said it's called the 72 Days of Fury. He said that he thinks the issue of immigration was a bigger factor in his victory than the economy and that he won because the Republican Party has become the party of common sense. He also said Kamala Harris's worst mistakes were one, taking the assignment because you have to know what you're good at, and two, not doing enough interviews. So that's his. That's his assessment. What do you think? Were we missing anything? Did you. Did you read that and think maybe I was missing something there? Maybe he's got a point.

[Dan Pfeiffer]

No, I did not. I read that whole interview top to.

[Jon Favreau]

Bottom, and at no point was that a long interview.

[Dan Pfeiffer]

And at no point was. When I read that, I was like, you know what? I know why magazines have fallen down.

[Jon Favreau]

Yeah. Let me just tell everyone who's listening, we're doing it for you here. You do not have to go read this interview.

[Dan Pfeiffer]

We are, we're, we are basically just an AI bot reading these and telling you the best parts. It and so. But I read that whole interview and at no point was I like, man, he's kind of got a point there. That did not happen strictly on this part. I trying to figure out what the 72 days were because Kamal Harris got in with 107.

[Jon Favreau]

Oh, maybe it was post debate maybe or post DNC maybe, I don't know.

[Dan Pfeiffer]

Or it's a fucking.

[Jon Favreau]

Maybe he doesn't know what the fuck he's talking about because he just picked it up. I'm gonna go with that, I'm gonna.

[Dan Pfeiffer]

Go with that one.

[Jon Favreau]

Yeah.

[Dan Pfeiffer]

The thing, it's now the second time I think that he has said that immigration was a bigger issue than the economy. And I just think that is something to keep in mind because his actions suggest he does not understand why he was elected. And it had a lot more to do with inflation than with immigration. Immigration was a big issue. I'm not going to take that, I'm not going to suggest it wasn't. But particularly for a lot of the voters who picked him over Kamala Harris or who moved to him, who would vote for Biden 20. Inflation was their top issue. And if you focus on things other than inflation, you will pay a price for that before too long.

[Jon Favreau]

Yeah, I do. There's something to the people came to believe that the Republican Party was the party of common sense. I don't think they think that about the Republican Party necessarily, but they thought that somehow the Trump and what he was selling was a little more common sense. And I think it's hard to square. Right. Because you're like common sense. He seemed fucking nuts. And look in exit polls more voters said that he was more extreme than Kamala Harris. So there's that. But when he was saying common sense, he was talking about the economy. He was talking, you know, he's like, people realize that they shouldn't be paying so much for groceries. And people think and on immigration, right. Like I do think people probably saw his view on immigration as more common sense than where the Democrats were. Even though I think I could make an argument that we're much more common sense on immigration. But I don't think that came through to people. We could spend a lot of pods and we will talking about why. But I do think there's probably some truth to that.

[Dan Pfeiffer]

I think the Democrats became the party to some voters of out of touch extremism.

[Jon Favreau]

Yeah.

[Dan Pfeiffer]

And that is a process that began long before Kamal Harris was the nominee. It was exacerbated by probably our party sticking with Joe Biden for a long time. It was exacerbated by that, the, the trans ad we talked about exacerbated by Kamala Harris saying on the View that there she couldn't think of any place to stop. She had nothing would come to mind in terms of where she would differ from Biden. But it also has been going on since COVID where we have been sort of relentlessly defined out of the mainstream as a party. And that doesn't mean that people are fully on board with Trump or think he is the party of common sense. But I think we seemed a little less in touch with working class people that may a lot less in touch with working class people. And that's. And that's why he won.

[Jon Favreau]

Yeah, I think it would be fair to say that people perceived us as no longer or less of a party of common sense than he was more. I don't think they did anything.

[Dan Pfeiffer]

No one was a party of common sense.

[Jon Favreau]

Right. Yeah. But we seemed like less of a party of common sense than maybe we had in the past. So that is. And look again, it's not all Democrats faults, but we have control over what we say and how we act and how we approach politics. So something to keep in mind. All right, that's our show for today. Tommy Lovett and I will be back with a new show on Tuesday. Everyone have a great weekend. We'll see you later.

[Dan Pfeiffer]

Bye everyone.

[Jon Favreau]

If you want to listen to Pod Save America ad free or get access to our subscriber discord and exclusive podcasts, consider joining our Friends of the pod [e-mail] friends or subscribe on Apple Podcasts directly from the Pod Save America feed. Also, be sure to follow Pod Save America on TikTok, Instagram, Twitter and YouTube for full episodes, bonus content and more. And before you hit that next button, you can help boost this episode by leaving us a review and by sharing it with friends and family. Pod Save America is a Crooked Media production. Our producers are David Toledo and Saul Rubin. Our associate producer is Farah Safaree. Reed Churlin is our executive editor and Adrian Hill is our executive producer. The show is mixed and edited by Andrew Chadwick. Jordan Cantor is our sound engineer, with audio support from Kyle Seglin and Charlotte Landis. Writing support by Hallie Kiefer. Madeline Herringer is our head of news and programming. Matt DeGroat is our head of production. Andy Taff is our executive assistant. Thanks to our digital team, Elijah Cohn Haley Jones, Phoebe Bradford, Joseph Dutra, Ben Hethcote, Mia Kelman, Molly Lobel, Kirill Pelaviev, and David Toles.

[Yara Shahidi]

Hey, I'm Yara Shahidi, and I'm the host of the Optimist Project. This is the podcast that asks what gives you hope. Each week, I sit down with change makers you may or may not know from comedy, music, academia, and more to uncover what inspires them to create a better tomorrow. Join us as we find out ways that we can cultivate optimism our own lives. You can find the Optimus Project wherever you get your podcasts. Don't forget to follow the show so you never miss an episode.