Bonus: Abdul El-Sayed Wins in Michigan feat. Bernie Sanders

Summary

Pod Save America: "Bonus: Abdul El-Sayed Wins in Michigan" feat. Bernie Sanders

Release Date: August 6, 2026
Hosts: Jon Favreau, Dan Pfeiffer, Tommy Vietor
Guest: Senator Bernie Sanders

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Episode Overview

This bonus episode dives deep into the stunning outcome of the hotly contested Michigan Democratic Senate primary, where Abdul El-Sayed narrowly defeated establishment-backed Haley Stevens despite being outspent more than 11 to 1. The hosts analyze the implications for Democratic Party politics, the influence of outside money—especially from AIPAC—and preview the general election against Republican Mike Rogers. The episode features an extended conversation with Senator Bernie Sanders, who reflects on El-Sayed’s victory and the challenges facing progressive candidates.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Abdul El-Sayed’s Narrow Victory

• Result Recap (03:00–04:10):

  • El-Sayed beat Haley Stevens by just 1 point: 48.5% vs. 47.5%.
  • Outspent by almost $60 million ($32 million from AIPAC alone).
  • Stevens conceded graciously; Mallory McMorrow introduced El-Sayed at his victory event.

• Historical Context:

  • Described as "an extraordinary victory," overcoming the entire Democratic establishment and a massive outside spending disadvantage.

• Significant Quote:

  • Bernie Sanders (54:05): “Here is a guy who took on the entire Democratic establishment in Michigan. … And then took on $70 million of Super PAC and outside funding about $30 million of it coming from AIPAC. … I cannot recall somebody having done that.”

2. Closer than Expected: Polling and Demographics

• Polling Misses (05:40–08:14):

  • Michigan’s unpredictability as a state for pollsters.
  • Polls had shown El-Sayed with a double-digit lead; actual margin was razor thin.
  • Likely errors in population sampling, especially with highly-engaged and college-educated voters.

• Coalition Breakdown (08:14–09:39):

  • El-Sayed’s base: young, college-educated, Arab/Muslim voters, especially strong in Dearborn (won 80–20).
  • Stevens’ strength in more diverse and moderate areas, e.g., Black voters and rural counties.
  • County-by-county variations complicated a clear narrative.

• Quote:

  • Jon Favreau (09:18): “You can’t understate the importance of the Muslim population, particularly in Dearborn, which Abdul won essentially 80–20.”

3. AIPAC and the Role of Outside Money

• Spending Impact (09:39–14:55):

  • AIPAC’s heavy spending arguably hurt Stevens by making her the “candidate of big money.”
  • Democratic base in Michigan highly skeptical of AIPAC—negative 37% favorability rating among Democrats.

• Voter Perceptions:

  • Many Democratic voters cited AIPAC as a negative influence in focus groups.

• Strategic Lessons:

  • The consensus was that future Democratic candidates may avoid association with AIPAC due to the political cost, despite the financial benefit.

• Quote:

  • Dan Pfeiffer (13:36): “In that word cloud of things associated with Haley Stevens, AIPAC is like giant in the middle of that. And 'money' is the other very big word.”

4. Party Unity Moving Forward

• Healing After a Bruising Primary (18:14–19:44):

  • So far, the Democratic political establishment quickly coalesced around El-Sayed.
  • Key endorsements from Gov. Gretchen Whitmer and the Senate Majority PAC came immediately after the primary.

• Real Challenge:

  • The bigger test is uniting voters, especially those who just heard $60 million of negative ads about El-Sayed.

• Quote:

  • Dan Pfeiffer (18:14): “Abdul has done the exact right thing here. … His tone was right both last night … and this morning.”

5. Previewing the General Election: The Republican Playbook

• First GOP Attack Ad (19:44–21:02):

  • Heavy emphasis on “radical Muslim” tropes, linking El-Sayed to unpopular policies or scandals, and claims about raising taxes and supporting terrorism.

• Analysis of Strategy:

  • The hosts dissect how the GOP ad marries cultural fear-mongering with economic anxiety—something Democrats do in reverse.
  • Consensus: Republicans will use both culture-war attacks and attacks on economic issues, often blending the two.

• Quote:

  • Dan Pfeiffer (21:02): “Our ad making is very siloed ... There is an economic argument and there's a radical argument. … I think in voters’ minds you are softening the ground for the economic argument by showing someone to be extreme.”

6. Crafting El-Sayed’s General Election Message

• Key Challenges:

  • Countering Mike Rogers’ established moderate reputation among Michigan voters.
  • Convincing voters that Rogers is now a Trump loyalist, “corrupt,” and out of touch with Michigan.

• Target Voters:

  • El-Sayed needs to improve with working class, rural, and Black voters—groups where he underperformed in the primary.

• Quote:

  • Dan Pfeiffer (32:03): “He needs to think really hard about how to make himself more broadly appealing ... You have to be willing to seem like you are open to listening, opening to understanding, agreeing to disagree, and open to compromise.”

7. Lessons on the Working Class & Democratic Messaging

• Broader Implications (36:00–43:52):

  • No recent Democrat—moderate or progressive—has cracked the code to win over the working class, especially with cultural concerns at play.
  • It's not enough to just hammer affordability and economic populism; cultural disconnection remains a barrier.

• Quote:

  • Jon Favreau (37:15): “Democrats have been doing poorly with working class voters for a long time … That is true of moderate Democratic candidates, it's true of liberal ... We have been losing working class voters to the Republicans under Donald Trump especially.”

8. Other Primary Results and Party Trends

• Progressive and DSA candidates had notable wins, but also some defeats (e.g., Cori Bush lost her House primary).

• The Democratic establishment struggles with managing crowded primaries without alienating the base.

• Moderate vs. Progressive Divide:

  • For moderates to succeed, candidates must break the mold—examples include Jon Ossoff, Josh Turek, Elissa Slotkin.
  • Key insight: “Establishment support” is not the kiss of death if the candidate feels authentically compelling.

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Bernie Sanders Interview (54:01–71:49)

Main Themes & Takeaways

1. Abdul El-Sayed’s Win as a Turning Point

• “I cannot recall somebody having done that. So it was an extraordinary victory.” (Bernie Sanders, 54:45)
• Stressed the unique nature of overcoming enormous financial and institutional opposition.

2. The Progressive Coalition

• Emphasized the grassroots strategy: “We put people out on the street knocking on doors.” (58:41)
• Urges a focus on mobilizing young and disaffected voters who often abstain from primaries.

3. Challenges Reaching Working-Class & Black Voters

• Sanders acknowledges: “I think we still have more work to be done within the African American community, maybe the women’s community. But there are great leaders in the state of Michigan … who I think can help us make that happen.” (59:55)

4. Endorsement Criteria

• Prioritizes candidates who support Medicare for All and are willing to actively challenge the status quo and “oligarchy.”

• Campaign viability and grassroots energy are key.

• Quote:

  • “If there’s one litmus test, probably Medicare for All would be it.” (Bernie Sanders, 60:32)

5. On DSA Platform Extremes

• Sanders distances himself from calls to abolish police or prisons, or from “open borders,” calling such positions marginal:
  • “No serious person that I know who is running for office believes in, quote, unquote, defunding the police.” (63:32)

6. What Democrats Should Offer in Congress Under Trump

• Even with Trump likely vetoing progressive policies, the party must proactively pass them to frame future battles.
• “Tell you what you’re going to do in the first two, three, four months, you’re going to pass Medicare for all. … If Mr. Trump wants to veto it, let him.” (66:21)

7. AI as an Existential Policy Threat

• Sanders’ “sleepless nights” are partly about AI and its impact on jobs, truth/disinformation, and democracy.
• “We need to slow it down. Mr. Musk cannot run the world and his friends.” (71:29)

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• Sanders on El-Sayed’s victory: “I cannot recall somebody having done that.” (54:45)
• On AIPAC influence: “AIPAC has a negative 37% favorability rating among Democrats in Michigan. … Being associated with them was bad for Haley Stevens.” (Dan Pfeiffer, 10:39)
• On Defining Democratic Priorities: “You have to actively reach out to people who do not agree with you.” (Dan Pfeiffer, 32:03)
• On the progressive vs. moderate divide: “For moderates to win is to find candidates who do not appear to be just like establishment toadies.” (Dan Pfeiffer, 51:18)
• On police/prisons rhetoric: “Most of the serious candidates that I know and support do not support those things.” (Sanders, 64:45)
• On AI dangers: “This is what I worry about—you’re looking at what I think we can agree on as the most transformational technology in the history of humanity.” (Sanders, 69:15)

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Timestamps for Key Segments

• 02:55–04:23: Overview of Michigan results & background on the primary
• 05:40–09:39: Polling errors and voter coalition analysis
• 09:39–14:55: The effect of AIPAC’s spending and voter reaction
• 18:14–19:44: Efforts to unify the Democratic Party post-primary
• 19:44–22:40: GOP attack ads and framing the general election
• 25:29–29:11: How to define Mike Rogers and tie him to Trump
• 32:01–43:52: Working class voters and messaging challenges for Democrats
• 54:01–71:49: Bernie Sanders segment: reflections on the victory, the future, and grassroots politics

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Conclusion

This episode provides a nuanced, in-depth look at the state of progressive politics after Abdul El-Sayed’s unprecedented victory in Michigan. The hosts and Bernie Sanders dissect where the Democratic coalition stands, the real impact of big-money SuperPACs, and how progressives can build winning messages that speak to both the party’s base and the broader electorate. Their analysis mixes insider strategy, honest self-critique, and forward-looking advice for winning tough races—making the conversation essential listening for anyone interested in the future of the Democratic Party.

Transcript

[Jon Favreau]

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[Bernie Sanders]

But.

[Jon Favreau]

But we do also like to get into other kinds of stories. Stories about policing or politics, country music,

[Dan Pfeiffer]

hockey, sex of bugs.

[Jon Favreau]

Regardless of whether we're looking at science or not science, we bring a rigorous

[Dan Pfeiffer]

curiosity to get you the answers and hopefully make you see the world anew.

[Jon Favreau]

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[Tommy Vietor]

your podcasts, hey, It's Tommy from Pod. Save America and Pot Save the World. Last year, 2,500 people joined us at CrookedCon for conversations with some of the smartest organizers, least annoying politicians, and most interesting voices in politics to talk about how to fix this mess. Even President Obama made a surprise appearance. We're doing it all again, November 5th to 7th in Washington D.C. with even more podcasts, panels and workshops. Plus there'll be drinks, which we'll need after the midterms, no matter which way they go. Get [e-mail] if you're a friend of the pod, you get a discount too. See you there.

[Dan Pfeiffer]

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[Bernie Sanders]

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[Jon Favreau]

on Carvana twas a lovely suv, an inexplicably queenly offer. They're even coming to the castle to collect it. Tonight we feast.

[Dan Pfeiffer]

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[Bernie Sanders]

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[Dan Pfeiffer]

Pickup fees may apply.

[Jon Favreau]

Welcome to Pod Save America. I'm Jon Favreau.

[Dan Pfeiffer]

I'm Dan Pfeiffer.

[Jon Favreau]

So, we were gonna record a reaction to Tuesday's election results last night, but the Michigan Senate race was much closer than all the polling suggested. So here we are today bringing you a bonus pod, complete with an interview with Bernie Sanders, which you'll hear in a bit. But first, the headline. Abdul El Sayed is now the Democratic nominee for the US Senate race in Michigan. With more than 95% of the vote in, he defeated Haley Stevens by one point, 48.5% to 47.5%, and will face former Republican congressman, current Florida homeowner Mike Rogers. On one hand, polls had Abdul ahead of Haley by anywhere between 10 to 19 points, and his. His team's confidence heading into Tuesday certainly matched that margin. On the other, um, we have a very progressive Muslim candidate who took on the entire Democratic establishment in D.C. and Michigan was outspent 11 to 1 by $60 million in outside spending, including a $32 million AIPAC spend. That's more than any group has spent in any Democratic primary this cycle. And Abdul still won. Haley Stevens very graciously conceded and. And Mallory McMorrow, who had also been in the race, actually introduced Abdul at his victory event Wednesday morning, where he previewed his argument against Mike Rogers.

[Dan Pfeiffer]

Mike Rogers is a guy who will do anything Blue Cross Blue Shield wants him to do, including raise your rates. Mike Rogers is a guy who introduced legislation to increase the flow of opioids. He did that while I was in high school. Mike Rogers is a guy whose politics and vision and perspective are old. Mike Rogers is a guy who has never shied away from a corporation he could do a favor for. Mike Rogers is a guy who, believe it or not, went back to Florida so he could lick every single boot Donald Trump owns to beg for his endorsement. I'm so sorry. If you want a senator who's going to lick some boots, fine, go vote for Mike Rogers. But if you want a senator who's going to stand up to Donald Trump, then you've got your option right here. Michiganders are sick and tired of BS politics coming in to divide us when there's so much more we can unite to actually guarantee if we're willing to come together around it. So if all Mike Rogers got is that his name is Abdul and my name is Mike. You're going to be surprised how many people will be like, yeah, but that's the Abdul who wants to bring down the price of my groceries and gas and stop us sending money abroad and make sure that I got health care. So yeah, I like that. Abdul, over your mic from Florida.

[Jon Favreau]

All right, we'll get, we'll get to that message in a bit. But let's start with the closer than expected results. What do you make of that? And what happened with the polling?

[Dan Pfeiffer]

What happened with the polling? That's a great question and a very hard one to answer because we don't have exit polls in this race. So it's hard to measure what the pollsters expected in terms of primary composition to what actually happened. But I will say that Michigan is a very hard state to poll. It always has been. It doesn't have a in state pollster that is incredibly well regarded. And it doesn't. And in the most well regarded one, the epic poll which came out a few weeks ago that had Haley Stevens up 10. So no one seems to know what, no one really knew what this lecture was going to look like. Best guess is it people oversampled highly engaged, college educated voters who overwhelmingly voted for Abdul. Hence the margin under sampled tail is over. Time was. Yeah, we've seen it happen nationally. We now have it happening in Democratic politics. And I was talking about this on Polar Coaster, which is coming out on Thursday, which everyone should check out. But it's actually the opposite polling error that happened in the 2025 gubernatorial races where they under sampled highly engaged. Well, I mean it's, they were, I mean.

[Jon Favreau]

Yeah, that's right.

[Dan Pfeiffer]

So it's, it's all very confusing. Let's put all the polling stuff aside because the polling stuff only really matters here in one regard, which is it has everyone and mess with everyone's expectations. If the polls have been tied or had shown Haley Stevens up a few points going into election day and Abdul one by one, this would be the shot heard around the world. It would be, as you point out, this incredible victory of a Muslim man named Abdul El Sayed beating the entire Democratic machine, beating aipac, beating Chuck Schumer, beating Gresham Whitmer and winning. And it would be this incredible victory. But because our expectation was he was going by a lot and that expectation was magnified by the fact that the first counties that came in showed him dramatically outperforming what people expect his margins to be, the expectations got messed up. And so the reason this race probably ended up playing out the way it was always going to play out. What ended up happening here is that Abdul had the typical coalition of a very progressive candidate in Michigan and nationally, which is a lot of young voters and a lot of college educated voters, and struggled with the rest of the coalition and Haley Stevens maximized the rest of it. And you ended up with a very, very close race.

[Jon Favreau]

Yeah. Someone pointed out that Hillary Scholten, who represents a Western Michigan district, was a big Haley Stevens supporter. Abdul won her district, but Haley Stevens won Rashida Tlaib's district. They're like, what's going on there? It's like, well, Hillary Scholten's district is a suburban district, heavily white, college educated and lefty. Progressive candidates do well with those voters. And Rashida Tlaib's district is much more diverse. Black voters especially. And that's how, you know, more moderate Democratic candidates tend to do well in those places. I think in a place like Michigan. Yeah. If you have combining college educated white voters, Arab American voters, Muslim voters, which there's obviously a bigger portion in Michigan than any other state, and younger voters and all the colleges around Michigan, that's probably, that's the. I would guess that's the coalition that Abdul assembled to get them over the top.

[Dan Pfeiffer]

Yeah, that's right. That's exactly right. And you can't understate the importance of the Muslim population, particularly in Dearborn, which Abdul won essentially 80, 20, 82. Yeah, yeah. And that makes these differences just to your point on college educated voters voting for Abdul is that Haley Stevens only won her own district by four points.

[Jon Favreau]

Yeah. I'd love for someone to do some analysis of. Because there's no, like you said, there's no exit polls, just some like county by county analysis. Because Haley Stevens did really well in a lot of rural counties, smaller towns, medium sized towns, which is, is not unexpected. But then like Abdul did well in some northern rural counties and other places. So, you know, we, we're sort of overgeneralizing just based on certain counties here and there. But I'd love to see a more detailed analysis. Let's just talk about APAC for a second. Do you think in the end AIPAC spending was a net positive or negative for Haley Stevens? Cause like I went into the race when, you know, the expectations were that Abdul would win by a lot, saying that it is clearly a negative because not only did they not help her win the race, but also they provided maybe the most effective argument for her opponent. Now you could argue it the other way now that it was only a one point race but I don't know. What do you think?

[Dan Pfeiffer]

Yeah, it's a somewhat complicated argument because being associated with aipac being the AIPAC candidate was bad for Haley Stevens. AIPAC has a negative 37% favorability rating among Democrats in Michigan. It also made her the candidate of big money in politics because the AIPAC ads were so ubiquitous. AIPAC spent north of $30 million in this race. So in that sense it definitely hurt her and made her an establishment candidate and an anti establishment environment. However, Haley Stevens was not a great fundraiser. According to ad impact data, of the $60 million that was spent on her behalf, 97% of the ads were paid for by someone other than the Haley Stevens campaign. So absent that financial support it's hard to see how she is this competitive. Conversely, a candidate who did not have that I think net negative imprimatur of being the AIPAC establishment candidate might have fared better than Stevens did in a one on one race with Abdul.

[Jon Favreau]

Yeah, I was trying to like doing a thought experiment because I think other Democrats who were more pro Israel have to contend with this at some point which is what if Haley Stevens had said no, I don't want, I don't want AIPAC's endorsement, I don't want the outside spending. My views on Israel are what they are. I'm not going to change those views. But I just don't think this outside money is, is worth it. We shouldn't have outside money in politics. And I don't want AIPAC's endorsement because I disagree with, you know, the Netanyahu regime, whatever it may be, whatever she could say without completely flip flopping, which is, you know.

[Dan Pfeiffer]

Well, I think she could have, I mean her best move would have been to completely flip flop or at least have a more nuanced position to put her on aid to Israel with conditions perhaps that put her more in the mainstream of the current Democratic party. But the cost of that would be $30 million of APAC money. But she also got north of $10 million in spending by another super PAC that was essentially I think a vessel

[Tommy Vietor]

for

[Dan Pfeiffer]

DSCC donors and the establishment in the Schumer world who wanted Haley Stevens similar to the spending that happened on Josh Turek's behalf in Iowa.

[Jon Favreau]

Yeah, I was thinking about that because I listened to Sarah Longwell's focus group podcast with Jonathan Cohn who knows Michigan really well and they talked to Michigan Democrats and I was surprised by, I mean first of all, you know, it's always good to listen to voters because the way they viewed this primary was so different than the national discourse and what you see online, like a lot of those Democrats, like they liked both Stevens and Abdul. And to the extent that there were negative things said about Haley Stevens, so many of these voters brought up AIPAC and outside spending and money in politics. And it's just, you know, it really broke through. Not only her ads that, you know, AIPAC ran on her behalf, but the idea that she was a candidate that was taking all this outside money.

[Dan Pfeiffer]

And one of the polls that came out from, I can't remember which one it was, that was not the Emerson poll, but one of the polls in the final stretch did a word cloud. Now this is obviously overly poor Abdul poll, so take the. With a grain of salt, many grains of salt. But they did a word cloud of things associated with Hailey Stevens. And AIPAC is like giant in the middle of that. And money, I think is the other very big word in that word cloud. So it definitely impacted her candidacy. It's just very hard to say how she could she have raised the money absent all this support from AIPAC enough to compete with Abdul, who's an excellent grassroots fundraiser. Could she have. Was there a way in which Schumer at all could have funneled more money to her through a non APAC vehicle? Open question, but I think you generally, I cannot see based on these results a 2028 candidate accepting, soliciting, accepting or courting AIPAC to either endorse them or run ads on their behalf. And if you are a more pro Israel candidate in 2028 on the scale, like on whatever the scale is for 2020 candidates and APAC starts running United States Democracy Project, whatever it's called, or one of those shadow packs or whatever you have to go like hold a press cameras in front of APAC demanding they take it down.

[Jon Favreau]

That's sort of what I was thinking.

[Dan Pfeiffer]

It'll hurt you.

[Jon Favreau]

Yeah, yeah, okay. That, that, that's. That was my thought too, but wanted to see what you thought.

[Tommy Vietor]

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[Dan Pfeiffer]

It does not appear like it's going to be a challenge to unite the political establishment nationally and in Michigan. Everyone seems to understand the urgency of the task. I really, you know, I've been pretty critical of how Abdul has talked about his opponents in this race, especially when it appeared and he certainly believed he was winning. It was not always the most gracious, but he did the exact right thing here. I think his tone was right both last night when he went out and spoke to voters before we knew the results. And then this morning, he responded to Haley Stevens tweet supporting Abdul in a very gracious way. Gretchen Whitmer immediately endorsed Abdul this morning. The Senate Majority pac, which has been rooting pretty extensively, I imagine, as a Chuck Schumer vehicle for Haley Stevens to win, had a video out this morning supporting Abdul. So I think that part is going exactly as planned. This is a conversation should be interested in. The general is. It's just, can the voters in the coalitions come together? I think the activists, even the people who have been the biggest people fighting against Abdul on Twitter, national Democratic activist types this morning were like, abdul's our nominee. Go support Abdul. Here's how you give to Abdul. I was a Mally McMorrow supporter throughout this race. I donated to Abdul this morning. Encourage everyone in my newsletter to do it. I think people are doing the right thing here. But can you get the voters who just heard $60 million of arguments against Abdul to come and support him? And that's that. That is the general. The challenge in the general election.

[Jon Favreau]

Okay, so let's get to the general. Earlier, we heard a preview of Abdul's general election message against Mike Rogers. Here's the first ad from the Republican Senate committee.

[Bernie Sanders]

Dual Rahman Mohamed El Sayed, the most

[Tommy Vietor]

radical Senate candidate in America.

[Jon Favreau]

Pretty dangerous.

[Tommy Vietor]

El Sayed pledged to support for the

[Bernie Sanders]

leader of the Muslim Brotherhood, a designated foreign terrorist group.

[Jon Favreau]

He wants to hike taxes on Michigan

[Dan Pfeiffer]

waitresses, delivery drivers and seniors on Social

[Bernie Sanders]

Security joined a sex offender and a

[Dan Pfeiffer]

murderer to demand the mass release of dangerous prisoners.

[Jon Favreau]

And when his ally claimed America deserved 9 11. America deserved 9 11, dude.

[Dan Pfeiffer]

El Sayed refused to disavow.

[Bernie Sanders]

I'm not here to disavow people's views Abdul El Sayed. Too radical, Too dangerous, Wrong for Michigan.

[Jon Favreau]

Welcome to the general

[Dan Pfeiffer]

thoughts on kicking the teeth this morning. I'll tell you that.

[Jon Favreau]

Yeah, I like that they combine. I like, I really like the mix of dangerous, scary Muslim extremist with Ann Hill. Raise taxes.

[Dan Pfeiffer]

It's not as dumb as it sounds.

[Jon Favreau]

No, I know, but it's just like it's, it's not as dumb as it sounds. And I will say Democrats do the exact same thing, but it is the consultant, pollster, ad maker, brain, which is like this is tests unpopular, this test unpopular. Let's jam them together. It doesn't matter if they're jammed together in a, in a compelling way or not.

[Dan Pfeiffer]

I think this is, we can, I don't know if you want to talk about Abdul's argument about Mike Rogers first and then get to this, but I think this ad is better than a lot of people online think. And I think the combining of it actually makes sense.

[Jon Favreau]

Yeah. Why do you think that?

[Dan Pfeiffer]

Because when you say that someone wants to like raise taxes on seniors, that is a very hard thing for anyone to imagine. So you have to prove that they are so radical that they'd be willing, willing to do that. And by all the other stuff leads to the idea that he is someone so radical that he would do that. And so I do think they, this is the argument is he is this incredible radical that he will do these other things that affect you. Because a person who cares about affordability, if they believe, if 2020, for example, if they believe that Abdul, I mean, they're going to discount a lot of this stuff because the political lab. But they think that he's a little too extreme. Maybe he says some things in the past, but they think he's actually gonna lower his cost. Donald Trump's election proves people will tolerate a lot for someone who will lower their costs. You have to make them believe that he will not lower your costs. And the way to do that is to make him seem so radical he's willing to do that. It's not the best version of that ad, but I understand the argument.

[Jon Favreau]

I think you gotta pick one. I think if you are like if I was going to try to persuade people that he was gonna, he's too extreme and he's so extreme that he would raise seniors taxes. You would say he wants to spend this amount of. Here are all his plans. He wants to spend this amount of money, he needs this much taxes. He loves government controlled health. Like I would go all like if he's gonna be a socialist who's gonna raise your taxes. You gotta make him left on that which I'm sure that that'll be coming. And then they'll of course have another track that is the scary Muslim extremist track.

[Dan Pfeiffer]

I guess the way I would think about this ad is it is a preview of and a signal to donors of what the larger argument will be. This will all over the course of the campaign manifest itself in some ads that are only about Hasan Piker and things he has said in the past, darkening his skin using his full name. And there will be ads about affordability. My argument would just be is those things are more connected than I think a lot of Democrats naturally assume. We are a. Our ad making is very siloed and there is an economic argument and there's a radical argument. And I think in voters minds you are softening the ground for the economic argument by showing someone to be extreme. And the candidate who is viewed as more, as less extreme tends to win elections in these last few elections. And Donald Trump being seen as less extreme than Kamala Harris was a real warning sign that he was gonna win that race.

[Jon Favreau]

Well, so then let's talk about Abdullah versus Mike Rogers because I do not think personally he's going to be able to make voters believe that Mike Rogers is extreme. But it sounded like from his opening message there and what he's been saying about Mike Rogers that he is going to try to convince voters that it's not about who's the more extreme candidate but who's fighting for you and who's corrupt. And that he's gonna make Mike Rogers the more corrupt candidate.

[Dan Pfeiffer]

Yes, I think his argument there too was also his. Let's just unload the full clip and see what sticks. Because there's a combination of he's corrupt, there's a combination of he's pro data center, there's a combination that he is pro corporation. Then there is he is a bootlicker for Trump. I think all of those individually are good arguments and I think that they can go together. We can discuss whether he's doing that the right way or not. But I think this is a state that is a 5050 state in 2024. It's a plus six and a half to eight point Democratic state this time around depending on exactly how the generic ballot looks. And Donald Trump's approval rating is under 40 in some polls in Michigan. So it's like sometimes we overcomplicate the fucking simple around here. A vote for Mike Rogers, a vote for Donald Trump and Donald Trump to control the Senate is the. And underneath that is a vote for higher costs for you, a vote for more powerful corporations, vote for tax cuts for billionaires. All of that is part of it. But I don't think convincing people that Mike Rogers himself is corrupt is gonna be the argument this is necessarily gonna play.

[Jon Favreau]

I think this is what he's contending with, and this is a Mike Rogers specific problem, is Mike Rogers has been representing Michigan for a long time, or he's been in Michigan politics for a long time. I think that a lot of voters, to the extent that they know who Mike Rogers is, probably remember him as a more moderate Republican for sure, who might.

[Tommy Vietor]

Who.

[Jon Favreau]

There's plenty of clips of him speaking out against Donald Trump. And I think Abdul has to make people realize before he just says that Mike Rogers is gonna be a vote for Donald Trump that Mike Rogers has changed. Because otherwise, I don't think you can go right to a Mike Rogers. I know everyone wants to do. And we talked about this in the main Senate race, too. Everyone wants to just do, Nationalize the race, make it about the Senate, make it about control of the Senate. Yeah, I agree with that to an extent. Except when you have candidates like a Susan Collins like Mike Rogers, who the voters in that state know and think of as more moderate and more willing to buck Trump than your typical Republican. And I think in those instances, you've gotta do some work on their character to, like, persuade people that something has changed about them, that they have either, like, they've been there too long, they've become corrupt, they only care about themselves and their money. They're now willing to do whatever Trump says just so they can keep their jobs and keep their money and all that kind of shit. Like, you still have to have Trump be part of it, but you have to do some work on the person's character.

[Dan Pfeiffer]

Mike Rogers thing's interesting because as I have been arguing for a long time that this is a very hard race, because Mike Rogers is not a MAGA buffoon in the eyes of the voters.

[Jon Favreau]

Right.

[Dan Pfeiffer]

A MAGA buffoon like a Dr. Oz or Herschel Walker or some of these other. The candidates the Democrats benefit from in 2022. There's also no evidence that he is Susan Collins. He underperformed Trump in 2022. I'm sorry, he underperformed Trump in 2024.

[Jon Favreau]

24.

[Dan Pfeiffer]

And I think that is just. He did not. If. If he were a candidate who was seen as, you know, more. I think, let me put it this way, we all know the people in Mike Rogers district know Mike Rogers. He was there for 18 years. I think we know Mike Rogers because we watched CNN in the 2010s and he was always on. And he was a very prominent Trump's skeptical voice in the 2016 world. I don't know, it's unclear to me how many Michigan voters know that. You absolutely have to do work on his character for sure to make people understand why the attacks work. But Susan Collins is a very unique proposition in a way in which Mike Rogers is more like running against a generic Republican.

[Jon Favreau]

I guess also it's tying Mike Rogers to Donald Trump in the same story, which is if we were to talk about Donald Trump right now, we'd say, you know, in his second term, he's fucking out to lunch. Corrupt, only cares about himself. It's a smash and grab. He's made everything more expensive while he got rich. And, you know, they've. In the primary, the Michigan Democratic Party has a website like pricehikemike.com and they have some great Mike Rogers quotes in there. He talks about coffee prices. He goes, oh my gosh, coffee went up. You know, horror, like being sarcastic. And on tariffs, he said, well, the shoe's gonna pinch every once in a while. On gas, he said, we're gonna be fine. We got plenty of oil. On a $50 annual physical, he said, that's probably okay, right? And then he said, anyone. Voters who blame Trump for high prices are nuts. Like, those are the kind of. I think those are the kind of quotes that both link what you're talking about, which is like, he's just like Trump. But also the guy's way out of touch and he like moved to Florida and has no idea what people in Michigan are going through.

[Tommy Vietor]

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[Jon Favreau]

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[Jon Favreau]

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[Dan Pfeiffer]

Go for it.

[Jon Favreau]

I know you wrote a message box on this, though.

[Dan Pfeiffer]

I did. 1700 words on no sleep. Look, Abdul's win is incredibly impressive when you put it in the context of everything he was up against. But when you look at the coalition that he won with, it is a coalition that does not bode great for the general election. He overperformed with youth, he overperformed with college educated voters. He underperformed in rural areas. He underperformed in most rural areas, not all of them, but he underperformed with working class voters. And he really got his clock clean with black voters and the electorate. You can survive in a primary like that because in Michigan, because it's almost 50, 50 college educated, non college educated voters in a typical primary. We don't have a lot of data on it, but I went back and looked at the 2020 primary between Biden and Bernie because they had exit polls from that and it was 53 non college, 47 college educated in that primary. And probably in a midterm, it's closer to 50, 50 or majority college educated in a general election. If you look at 2024 exit poll data, it's more than 60% non college educated. It is significantly older. The number of, percentage of voters over 65, I think, goes up nine points. And so all the voters that Abdul struggled most with are disproportionately a larger portion of the electorate in 2020 in the, in the general election. And I think we, you know, he, once again, this is another progressive candidate running on a working class agenda who did not win working class voters. And he, you can't, you have, there's no other way to win Michigan. Right. So I think, like I wrote a bunch of things for Abdul to do. I'll just give you a couple of them here. The first one was unify and sort of a, you know, win with grace. And he has done that thus far, that I think that's going in the right direction. The second thing was he has to really think about how to not just do better with black voters, but to make increased turnout with black voters for him. You know, and you can argue that millions and millions of dollars of ads that misleadingly suggested that Barack Obama had endorsed Hilly Stevens contributed to this. And I'm sure it did. But also historically, candidates with Abdul's profile of sort of this progressive candidate do poorly with black voters. And so he's got work to do there. I hope he calls Barack Obama today and starts to think about how he could be helpful and other Michigan Democrats and others who can help him in that community, he can be validators. In that community, he's gotta be. I think the lesson here is he needs to think really hard about how to make himself more broadly appealing. I think his campaign was, I found so much of it inspiring and exciting. And from a communications and messaging perspective, it was really masterful in a lot of ways. But the vibes you got was a really like my way or the highway, you're with us or you're against us vibe. And he now has to go out and persuade a lot of people, some of them who voted for Haley Stevens, some of them who are just middle of the road independent voters who have not thought about Politics once since 2024, to support him. Many of those people are going to disagree with him on Medicare for All, on some of the things he said in the past. They're going to disagree with him on Israel. There's real work to do with Jewish Democrats in Michigan. And you have to be willing to seem like you are open to listening, opening to understanding, opening to agree to disagree, and open to compromise. And if you look at the way his primary campaign was entirely centered around, and this was an effective strategy because he won maximizing his base rallies with Bernie. Many of the final ads had AOC in them. She's a very, very popular Democrat. And they worked. But he did very little to try to show himself to be different than the caricature of himself as this sort of prototypical leftist candidate. You didn't see he was either unable to get or did not seek out endorsements that would be counterintuitive. A moderate Democrat who endorsed them, a business leader who would endorse him, a former Republican or something like that, or putting the. Like he talks all the time. And I know this happens of these triple Trump voters who are gonna, who supported Abdul in this primary because Michigan's open primary. Why aren't those people in ads? Yeah, right. You're going to have to do some things that have a much more broadly appealing. There's more that reaches. You have to actively reach out to people do not agree with you. And the last thing is like, you really have to think hard about, you know, he had a very economically centered message, money in your pockets. What is it that did not work with that with working class Democrats, let alone working class independents or working class disillusioned Trump voters? Is it that it wasn't specific enough? Is it that people, because of the way the race played out, people thought that wasn't his top priority? And maybe it was. They thought his top Priority was money in the politics or aid to Israel.

[Jon Favreau]

I think this whole conversation about working class voters in the Democratic primary has sort of like gotten out of hand because we did this with the Platner thing in Maine as well. Like just a few, like Democrats have been doing poorly with working class voters for a long time, as you know. And that is true of moderate Democratic candidates, it's true of liberal Democratic candidates, it's true of progressive Democratic candidates. Like we have been losing working class voters to the Republicans under Donald Trump especially, that is, he has accelerated it and it used to be just white voters and now under Trump it was Latino voters and some black men as well. Right. So it is a party wide problem. The left says if you just like, you know, press the economically populist button hard enough that suddenly you're going to win over the working class voters. That has not, there's, there's not a lot of evidence that that is true. The establishment and center left Democrats are like, well, the left can't do this. And they're not, they say that they're economically populous but they can't get the working class voters. But it's like, you know what? The establishment candidates aren't really doing that. There's not a lot of evidence that establishment candidates are doing that much better with the working class voters that you would actually need to win in a closed state. Yes, in a primary, Haley Stevens coalition is going to look more working class than Abdul's. But like in the, in, in a general election, it's not like there is any Democrat you can point to in the last 15 fucking years who's really made inroads to the, to the working class in a way that, that would, that would solve this problem. Which leads me to believe, which is one thing you could take from this is it is not just about talking up affordability or the right affordability message or the right economic message. Like there are cultural social concerns that the working class have, which is why they have moved away from the Democratic Party that I think we all have to contend with here. Because it's like, why is Jared Goldin winning them in Maine too? And is like as moderate as they come on a host of issues, but is not some economically populist hero.

[Dan Pfeiffer]

We don't have to get into the golden egg because I agree with your point here. I think if you were trying to win this race and you just lost in working class voters in a Democratic primary and the core of your message was pro working class is worth taking a step back and Trying to figure out what you need to do to at least perform better than Kamala Harris did with those voters in Michigan so you can win.

[Jon Favreau]

Yeah, I guess one way to think about it is we went through this in 08, right. Like we were in a primary with Hillary that lasted 45 years. And every single state she won working class voters and we did not. And the reason she won working class white voters.

[Dan Pfeiffer]

That's. That's one giant difference. Here is the reason why Obama wins and Bernie and Bill Bradley and all these other progressives can't lose is because Obama could win college educated voters and black voters at high numbers.

[Jon Favreau]

Right.

[Dan Pfeiffer]

The rest of these voters are not doing that.

[Jon Favreau]

But what we heard incessantly is Barack Obama has been talking about the working class. His policies are geared for the working class, but it's just not working. It's just not working. Why isn't it working? And then, you know, he was. He still maintained that message through the general and won. Meanwhile, Hillary Clinton was like the hero of working class voters in 2008 and then she runs for president again in 2016 and gets her clock clean with working class votes.

[Dan Pfeiffer]

Well, like these things are always suffer from small sample sizes. But the example for Abdul is Obama, which is we worked really hard to get those voters. And we did it in a lot of ways that were counter to what a typical progressive Democrat would do based on the playbook. We spent a lot of time talking about the deficit and making sure people's taxpayer money was spent. Remember, we're gonna have the guy from Dave, he was gonna go through the budget line by line there. You know, Obama was very. Spent a lot of time reaching out to voters who disagreed with him on abortion.

[Jon Favreau]

This is what I'm getting at. That's what I was getting at by yes.

[Dan Pfeiffer]

And I think there's a way in which Israel plays into this, which I'll get to in a sec. And there. Look, you cannot. I do not want to overlook the fact that both in Obama's case and Abdul's case, race plays a role here.

[Jon Favreau]

Of course.

[Dan Pfeiffer]

Right. The fact that he is that Obama was a black man and Abdul is a Muslim American certainly plays a role. And that then puts a higher burden on you in the general election. Because life is not fucking fair. To do some things that show because of the ad we just saw that show that you can relate to these voters culturally, that you're different than the caricature. And you're going to have to find some ways that are. To use the favorite term of Some of our moderate friends, that is heterodox or counterintuitive. And the reason I want to bring Israel up here, because some people will argue that he needs to moderate on Israel and AIDS Israel in particular to win. And he has done this. And if you actually really listen to what Abdul says and when he gets asked questions, he is very good at talking about reaching out to Jewish Americans who disagree with him. Right. But he has work to do there, obviously, and all the money spent against him does not, is why he has a little bit of this deficit. And some of his supporters, his most prominent supporters are why he has a bit of this deficit. But independent voters in Michigan and nationally agree with Abdul on AIDS Israel. Independents are basically very similar to Democrats on this issue. The issue though is once you move to the general election and once you move downscale economically, the salience of the issue goes down. And so I can imagine that if you're a working class voter and you have just paid attention to this race and you hear what Abdul's talking about, you hear what's great, not just what he says because you're not listening to his full speech, but what's breaking through in media coverage or social media conversation, even in some mail pieces is AIPAC and Israel. And that these voters who agree with Abdul but think it is, but care much, but affordability is a much higher topic for them can believe that in his mind, priority wise, that aid to Israel on that basket of issues is higher on his list. And affordability. And that hurts you with voters. And it's one of the reasons Democrats have suffered with these voters and is, you know, we saw this in the deciding to win report that Simon Bazelon did last year or whenever that was, because time has no meaning. And what voters think Democrats top priorities are is often not the economy, even when it actually is.

[Jon Favreau]

I think there's a pretty easy way to square the circle. And I could see him moving towards this, a dual moving towards this day, which is just people are tired of their money going overseas to be spent on stupid wars like Israel's part of this. But we are at war with Iran right now. That is a fucking disaster that Donald Trump is responsible for. And Mike Rogers is supporting. And Mike Rogers just told Semaphore the other day, oh, when I go around, no one talks about Iran and the war, blah, blah, blah. But by linking affordability concerns to meanwhile, you've got Republicans and if you put Mike Rogers in the Senate, they're just gonna keep sending all your money overseas to Fight stupid wars until like, you know, when it should be here in Michigan helping you afford things like. I think that's a good message.

[Dan Pfeiffer]

Yeah, for sure. That was one I meant to bring that up earlier is that pivot was notable in his remarks and it's going to be interesting when you get asked how he feels about aid to Ukraine in this situation.

[Jon Favreau]

Yeah, yeah, that is true. Well, we're not providing much anymore. So there's.

[Dan Pfeiffer]

That's right.

[Jon Favreau]

Unfortunately there. But yeah, no, that is. Well and he's also been. Because I saw him on Ms. Now and someone was like, well you talk about Israel all the time. Well, do you not like, do you not like Egypt or other ethno nationalist governments? He's like, no, no I don't. I would not, I would not give aid to them either.

[Dan Pfeiffer]

Yeah, he basically said he would give aid. Yeah. He doesn't believe in unconditional aid to any country.

[Jon Favreau]

Right.

[Dan Pfeiffer]

Which is a very good and wise and I imagine quite popular position.

[Bernie Sanders]

Yes.

[Jon Favreau]

Right. Okay. We should just talk about Michigan Senate was not the only notable primary last night. Before we go, in Michigan's 7th House District, which is a top target for Dems to flip, the lefty candidate Will Lawrence, who's the Sunrise Movement co founder, beat two more moderate Democrats who split the vote. In Michigan's 13th House district, DSA candidate Donovan McKinney has defeated incumbent Democrat Sharif Anadar by three points. In Kansas, the more progressive state senator Cindy Holscher beat Democratic Governor Laura Kelly's pick to succeed her state Senator Ethan Corson. But over in Missouri, incumbent House Democrat Wesley Bell crushed Cori Bush who was trying to win her old seat back by 59 to 37. We got a moderate Senate Democratic candidate in Kansas, Adam Hamilton, whose primary victory there moves the race from solid R to likely R. And elsewhere in Washington and yeah, I know it's something. And elsewhere in Washington and Virginia, incumbent moderate established Democrats all won their races despite some of them facing challenges from the left. Anything else I missed and any, any takes on the rest of the primaries from last night?

[Dan Pfeiffer]

No. I mean this continues a trend we've seen with a handful of exceptions here and there of progressive anti establishment candidates winning in races. You can overstate these things. Lawrence won a three way race so it would be interesting to see what would happen if he had had a one on one with either of the two moderates. Maybe he still would have won then too. But the anti Lawrence vote was much larger than Lawrence vote in the Sri Thanadar race. He is a particularly unpopular Democrat, but still impressive because incumbents don't get knocked off that much. Then you have the Wesley Bell, Cori Bush 1, which is an example of he was supported heavily by aipac. Wesley Bell was. AIPAC supported his victory against Cori Bush last time. There's a lot of baggage from why Cori Bush lost the first time. Scandal stuff there that affected it. And I think Bell apparently, I guess in the eyes of his position has been an effective legislator in this time. But if you, if you want to like, what happened last night is I think consistent with the theme we've seen all primary season, which is in races with the right candidates in the right situations, progressive anti establishment candidates have the advantage in the primary against the more traditional candidates you would expect to win.

[Jon Favreau]

I do think your point about Michigan 7th, where if there had only been one candidate facing William Lawrence instead of two, they very well, he very well could have lost. And I think for, you know, moderate Democrats who are worried about this or worried about, you know, this sort of this progressive wave, like if you don't want a DSA candidate to win, like, figure out one candidate to take on that person.

[Dan Pfeiffer]

I mean, this is, this is really hard because I look at that and I'm like, well, most people could be wrong, but the General belief Michigan 7 is a district that Trump won by one point. It's Alyssa slot and sole district. Democrats should win it this time around. Most of the people whose job it is to try to win the House believe pretty strongly that either Bridget Brink or Matt Masdin would be favorites in that race. It is a toss up at best with Lawrence. Whether that's correct or fair, I don't know. But so in one sense you're like, why can't these people in Washington figure this shit out and get one person on the race? At the same time we're like, hey dscc, stop endorsing in these primaries. Why are you endorsing Haley Stevens and Janet Mills and all these other people and just let the voters decide. But I think there are some lessons here, not the people watching it, but if the folks who really are focused on electing more moderates or more electable or more heterox Democrats, whatever else you want, do have to get their shit together. And I think what happened in Michigan 7 and what happened in Michigan Senate where most there was a strong argument that Abdul was less electable than Haley Stevens, that's sort of a moot point right now, but is that there aren't a lot of people in the Democratic Party with the authority and the experience and the trust to tell Democratic primary voters how to think or even to tell candidates which one of them should get out. And you end up in situations like these where the candidate who in a normal election year might not have won will win this year because the establishment doesn't have the credibility to tell voters. If they can say who's more electable, the voters aren't going to believe them.

[Jon Favreau]

Look, this is a conversation we'll be having for the next year, two years, so we don't have to do it all now. But yeah, I think it's less. I think the ability of some Democratic establishment to like, move pieces on a chessboard to get the right people that they want in races is like, not the best strategy. But I do think it argues for compelling candidates who break out from the crowd, who are also not like. Like they don't have to be DSA candidates, but they can at least have like, there's plenty of, I think, mainstream Democrats and tough races who I would say the left is probably fine with. Jon Ossoff as an example, right. Like Jon Ossoff has taken some votes that are, you know, pretty moderate votes or things that left lefties might be upset about. But like, people are generally fine with him because he is a compelling candidate. And now we're look, you know, you look in Wisconsin right now, what's going on, right? Like in the governor's race and they had a lieutenant governor who had to drop out cause of scandal. Mandela Barnes also drops out partially because of scandal, partly because he didn't break through. We got David Crowley, who you're gonna be talking to on Thursday, who last minute got Ever's endorsement. Now they're trying. It's just like you gotta have, you gotta run candidates who can really break through and at least say have a message and have an agenda that people who would normally vote for some of these DSA progressive candidates would still find appealing.

[Dan Pfeiffer]

The model here in the example is Josh Turek.

[Jon Favreau]

Yeah.

[Dan Pfeiffer]

Who was a more moderate candidate, believed to be more electable, was supported by Schumer World and did benefit from $10 million in SuperPAC spending for that, but was able to, in all the other Schumer's endorsed in three races, his candidate has lost or dropped out in two of the three. Turek's the exception. Turek is a very compelling candidate who even though he had establishment support, does not read like an establishment candidate. Now, obviously he has a very unique bio, very unique profile. But the way for moderates to win is to find Candidates who do not appear to be just like establishment toadies. Right.

[Jon Favreau]

They have Ruben Gallego in Arizona in 2024. This is another example of that. Right?

[Dan Pfeiffer]

Melissa Slotkin, Honestly.

[Jon Favreau]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Dan Pfeiffer]

Different profile, but, you know, but we're also in a different world now where everyone is going to. Almost everyone is going to face a primary. And if you think there are a lot of primaries in 2026, wait till 2028.

[Jon Favreau]

Fun stuff. Okay, when we come back, I talk to Senator Bernie Sanders. Hey, Dan Tabursky here. I'm a podcast host, a journalist, and now with my newest project, the author of my own manifesto. Well, it's a manifesto about manifestos, my search for inspiration in a world that feels more intense, infuriating, more out of its freaking mind with each passing hour. Manifestos are a call to action, an artful scream. They capture our anger and they try to do something with it. This is my attempt to take the manifesto back from mass shooters and nihilists and return it to its rightful place with the warriors, the visionaries, the regular folks with just the right amount of crazy. I compare notes with radicals, secessionists, Internet trolls out for a laugh, and punk singers screaming their guts out, all trying to turn their anger into the world they want to see. Listen to Manifesto wherever you get your podcasts. Audible subscribers can binge all episodes of Manifesto early and ad free right now. Join Audible in the Audible app or by subscribing on Apple Podcasts.

[Tommy Vietor]

Hey, it's Tommy from Pod Save America and Pod Save the world. Last year, 2,500 people joined us at CrookedCon for conversations with some of the smartest organizers, least annoying politicians, and most interesting voices in politics to talk about how to fix this mess. Even President Obama made a surprise appearance. We're doing it all again November 5th to 7th in Washington, D.C. with even more podcasts, panels, and workshops. Plus, there'll be drinks, which we'll need after the midterms. No matter which way they go. Get [e-mail] if you're a friend of the pod, you get a discount, too. See you there.

[Jon Favreau]

Senator Sanders, welcome back to Pod Save America.

[Bernie Sanders]

Great to be with you.

[Jon Favreau]

I saw that you described Abdul's primary win as the most extraordinary victory you can think of in modern American politics. What makes you think that?

[Bernie Sanders]

I'll tell you why, and you tell me what you think. Here is a guy who took on the entire Democratic establishment in Michigan. Okay. Took on the entire national Democratic establishment. Okay. And then took on $70 million of Super PAC and outside funding about 30 million of it coming from AIPAC. Now help me out here. You know something about these things.

[Jon Favreau]

Yeah.

[Bernie Sanders]

Have you ever heard of a candidate in a major race getting outspent nine to one, taking on the entire establishment and winning?

[Jon Favreau]

No, not in a primary like that. Now he's got to win the general though. Then it would really be. Then it would really be extraordinary.

[Bernie Sanders]

All right, but all that I'm saying, you asked me. I cannot recall somebody having done that. So it was an extraordinary victory. And in addition, in Michigan last night, we won two congressional races. As you know. Donovan McKinney beat an incumbent in Detroit. Will be the next congressman Will Lawrence won in Lansing a strong victory. I think he stands a good chance to win in November as well.

[Jon Favreau]

Yeah, it ended up being a really close race. Abdul won by about a point. What does the close finish tell you about where Democratic voters are right now? Especially, you know, the 720,000 or so who voted for Haley Stevens?

[Bernie Sanders]

Well, John, I would. It certainly was a close race. I was up to 3 o' clock or 4 o' clock in the morning. So if I fall asleep, don't take it personally. But you have to understand that $70 million was spent against this guy. So want to rephrase the question and say if it was a fair fight financially and there was no spending difference, how many points would he have won by? 10, 20 points? Maybe, I don't know. But all in all, I think it was an extraordinary victory. I think the message right now, and I think Haley Stevens was very gracious in a concession speech and she was exactly right. We understand that we have the most dangerous president in the modern, not in the modern, in the history of the United States. And we have got to elect Democrats, Democratic control of the Senate and the House and we've all got to work together to make that happen. And I think, I would suspect that the overwhelming majority of the people who voted for Haley Stevens understand that.

[Jon Favreau]

So looking at the map, Abdul dominated in college towns, highly educated areas. He didn't do as well in sort of the working class city and blue collar suburbs. And this has been a pattern with more progressive candidates in Democratic primaries, with I think your presidential races being the notable exception that I can think of. Why do you think more economically populous candidates aren't doing as well with working class voters than more moderate establishment candidates?

[Bernie Sanders]

Well, I think, and again, let's remember that what last night was a pattern is consistent with what we have seen all over this country, by the way, in the last year from Madani's victory in New York City to Melatz Kiros's victory in Colorado and a lot in between. Progressives are winning, John, and we're winning for a lot of reasons. We're often winning, as was the case last night, with a huge turnout. I think, correct me if I'm wrong, that was a record breaking turnout. Michigan Democratic bombing.

[Jon Favreau]

Yes. Yeah, it was.

[Bernie Sanders]

That didn't happen by accident. It happened because, among other things, Abdul was able to bring out a lot of young people who previously did not get involved in the political process. And a lot of people have kind of given up on politics. But I have absolute confidence that Abdul's message of economic justice, of demanding the billionaires pay their fair share of taxes. And I'll tell you something else, this guy's a doctor and I desperately need him in the US Senate to help me and others move toward a Medicare for all single payer program. I think it's going to resonate all over Michigan, whether you're Democrat, Republican or independent.

[Jon Favreau]

Do you think it's harder to reach working class voters with that message? Do you think that they just, they, you know, people are busy and they're not paying as close attention to politics. Like, what do you, what do you, how do you think about that?

[Bernie Sanders]

And you got, you know, you got the Internet phenomenon and algorithms where people see what they want to see and what they have seen yesterday. So it's hard to break through that. But what has excited me about Abdul's campaign and again, Madami did it in New York, others have done it, is he has, he put thousands and thousands of people out on the street. And one of the differences, John, between our campaigns and establishment Democratic campaignsthey always have more money than we do. They hire great consultants, they do good 30 second ads. We put people out on the street knocking on doors. And I think in Abdul's case in Michigan, we're going to have to have thousands and thousands of people knocking on doors, explaining to Republicans, do you really think it's a good idea? Do you have tax breaks, the billionaires and cut back on health care and education, et cetera, et cetera. So there's an enormous amount of work to be done. It's going to be done in a grassroots way. I think we win.

[Jon Favreau]

So as you look to the fall, what is, you know, Abdul's probably going to face even more money than he did in the primary. It's obviously a tougher electorate. What's one thing he has to do and his campaign has to do that they haven't done yet?

[Bernie Sanders]

I Think we still have more work to be done within the African American community, maybe the women's community. But there are great leaders in the state of Michigan and all over this country who I think can help us make that happen.

[Jon Favreau]

So you've endorsed a lot of progressive candidates like Abdullah this cycle. You mentioned a few others who won last night. There are also a lot of progressive candidates, DSA candidates running who you haven't endorsed. How do you decide which progressive candidates get your endorsement and which don't?

[Bernie Sanders]

Well, you know, we're not, you know, some kind of huge machine here, so we have to be kind of have to pick and choose. One of the things that people don't know is that we have also endorsed dozens and dozens and dozen what we call down ballot candidates. People are running for school boards, city council, state legislature, mayor and small towns. And that in a sense becomes, if you like, the farm club, the future leaders of America. Some great people in legislature right now that we've helped get elect and we have trained, by the way. We have programs that say, hey, you want to run for office? This is how you send out a press release. This is how you do social media, et cetera, et cetera. But we have, you know, limited resources. So what we do is a. What do you stand for? What do you stand for? If you are a moderate, liberal type Democrat, that's great. There are other people who support you. That's not us. Do you support Medicare for All, which is more or less for us? I think if you would ask me, if there's one litmus test, probably Medicare for All would be it. Do you support attacks on billionaires? Are you prepared to take on the oligarchs? What is your view about the extremist government in Israel? So you need that information, but that's not enough. Then you have to say, look, you can. I have seen this. I've experienced this. People have really. They're really smart. They have great answers to everything. They can't run a campaign. You know, it's not easy putting together a campaign. And Abdul did it, by the way. Not everybody can do it. So you gotta say, all right, what's the nature of your campaign? How many volunteers do you have? Well, we don't have any. You raising any money? No, we're not. Okay, well, that's nice. Have a nice day. You're a great guy, but we're not gonna support you. So those are some of the things that we look at.

[Jon Favreau]

I noticed you haven't yet endorsed in the Wisconsin governor's race. What's your thinking there? And might you endorse or.

[Bernie Sanders]

I don't think so. I met Francesca a couple of years ago. I was in Wisconsin, and she seems very, very nice. But again, this is a race I just am not that familiar with. We have not gotten involved in many governor's races. I think we did one in Maine with Troy Jackson. You know, obviously my major concern right now is seeing that we have a Senate and a House that is gonna stand up to Trump. That's really where my focus is. So as of now, we have not been involved in that race.

[Jon Favreau]

So your brand of progressive politics has always been focused on the material needs of working class people. And I would say that to the extent that you've broken from Democratic Party policy, it's usually around economic issues, health care, etc. There are, there are some DSA candidates today, you know, including some who've won their primaries this cycle, who've also talked about abolishing prisons, defunding or even abolishing the police, abolishing borders. You've never been for any of that. Are you worried that taking those positions, which are unpopular with most voters and even most Democrats, sort of hurt the movement that you've worked really hard to build?

[Bernie Sanders]

Well, you know, look, people have different views and what you know as well as I do that the right wing, that's their job, right? They will take what one person said and put, you know, $80 billion of TV ads on it and make it claim every Democrats supports that. No serious person that I know who is running for office believes in, quote, unquote, defunding the police. I was a mayor for eight years. I worked very closely with cops. They have a very difficult job. Do we need police reform? Do we need to get rid of racism within police departments? Absolutely. Are there jobs that other people can be doing in terms of mental health, drug addiction that now falls on a cop's shoulders? Yeah, I think we should look at that. But nobody I know, you know, believes in defunding the police in terms of doing away with prisons. I hope the day comes, I hope the day comes when we don't lead the world in the number of people who are incarcerated. That speaks very poorly of our society. But does that mean that there should not be dangerous people who should be behind bars? Of course, everybody agrees with that. Open borders. No, we all, most of us believe in comprehensive immigration reform, not opening up all the borders. But a lot of this stuff, as you well know, is what the right wing plays on and multiplies on Fox you know, 10 times a day and through their ads. But most of the serious candidates that I know and support do not support those things.

[Jon Favreau]

You've made a really compelling case that the Democratic Party can't just be anti Trump. We have to be for something. On the other hand, you never want to promise voters things that you can't actually get done. And I think about this just in terms of the next two years in this cycle, Right. So bunch of Democrats when say everything goes well and we take Congress, Trump's still president for two years. What do you think Democratic candidates running today can realistically promise voters in terms of a Democratic Congress the next two years?

[Bernie Sanders]

Tom, I would look at. That's a good question that you've raised. I would look at it a little bit differently. Okay. I would not start off by saying Donald Trump is president. You know, he probably veto any serious and good piece of legislation, therefore we can't bring it up. That's not the way I look at it. All right? I look at it from the position of. And let me be very clear, you may agree with me, you may not. I think the system is horrifically broken in many ways. We're on a Titanic right now. Every place you look, whether it's health care, whether it's transportation, whether it's education, whether it's a corrupt campaign finance system, whether it is oligarchy and massive income and wealth inequality, whether it is climate change. I mean, I can go on and on. It's scary stuff.

[Jon Favreau]

Yeah.

[Bernie Sanders]

I mean, we're living in really crazy times. And then on top of that, you got Donald Trump as president, who does everything, you know, does the wrong things every, every single day. So I think the first thing you do, John, and what my politics is about, is to be honest with people. You say, I don't stop. What can you do? What are the problems facing you? All right, you're worried that your kid can't afford to go to college. We're the richest country on earth. What should we do? Did God determine that public education ends in the 12th grade? Can we make public colleges and universities tuition free? Do you think that 0 to 4 is important for a kid's development? Of course you do. Should we have universal and free childcare so that all families can enjoy? Yeah, you can. Oh, Bernie, that's a great idea. How are you going to pay for it? Well, okay, that's another issue. Maybe we demand that large corporations and the wealthiest people start paying their fair share of taxes. Maybe we don't spend 1.1 trillion on the military. But this is what I believe, John, and it really is at the heart of my politics. You got to deal with where people are at. They are hurting. They are giving up on democracy in many cases because they don't see government do anything for them. So what my strategy would be to answer your question is if I had the power, and I have some power, I will say to the Democrats, you gain control of the House, you gain control of the Senate. Tell you what you're going to do in the first two, three, four months, you're going to pass Medicare for all. And if Mr. Trump wants to veto it, let him. And we are going to explain to the American people why he vetoed it. And we're going to lower prescription drug costs to the price that other countries around the world are paying. He's going to veto that. Fine. We're going to raise the minimum wage. We're going to raise taxes on billionaires. Let Mr. Trump say no. And when he says no, we have transformed politics because the next time round we'll win a landslide victory. That's my view of politics.

[Jon Favreau]

Well, looking ahead to 2028, I mean, you've been so outspoken on AI, and it's clearly going to be a huge issue, not just in this election, but again in 2028 when we actually have a presidential race. What do you hope to hear from Democratic candidates in the Democratic Party in terms of how we handle artificial intelligence?

[Bernie Sanders]

John, there are easy answers and there are hard ones. And I got to tell you, of all of the issues out there, this one, you know how, you know why you can't sleep at night? This is one of them. Now, maybe I'm crazy and it may well be. Look, I. Yeah. First of all, we start off with the assumption is nobody knows what's going to happen. Right?

[Jon Favreau]

Right.

[Bernie Sanders]

You don't. I don't. Nobody does. You know, Elon Musk doesn't know. Nobody knows. Here is my nightmare. This is what I worry about. You're looking what I think we can agree on as the most transformational technology in the history of humanity.

[Dan Pfeiffer]

Okay?

[Bernie Sanders]

It's going to make the Industrial Revolution seem like a piece of cake. This stuff is moving quickly in every aspect of our society. How many millions of jobs will be lost? I don't know what happens to the workers. You're a 50 year old truck driver and now you got a driverless vehicle taking your job. What happens to you? You're a kid graduating college, there's no entry level job. What happens to you? You're a Lawyer firm no longer needs you. What happens to you? So economically, I worry about it. I worry about it also, and I say all these things, and the reason I am fighting these fights is I don't have all the answers. But somebody got to start this discussion and talk about it. All right. Democracy. All right. Tomorrow there will probably be some kind of deep fake of me on your program saying how much I love Donald Trump and what a great job he is. Right? Yeah.

[Jon Favreau]

Right.

[Bernie Sanders]

All right, so has that happened to you?

[Jon Favreau]

Not yet. I'm waiting for it.

[Bernie Sanders]

Yeah, it'll happen. All right, so you're at a moment where people look at the Internet. We don't know truth from fiction. Right? You really don't. You've seen those deepfakes, right?

[Jon Favreau]

Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah.

[Bernie Sanders]

All right, so if a day before the election and you saw what happened to this guy, Thomas Massie, where it was alleged they had a. A video of him walking into a hotel room with two young congresswomen. Right. Total lie. Did older people in Kentucky believe it? Some did. All right, how do you deal with that and protect democracy? How? And what worries me very much, reading scores for our kids is in decline. You know, that writing capabilities, cognitive capabilities, kids are addicted to screenshots. How do you deal with that? Recently, we've seen instances of AI escaping human control. I talked to a Nobel Prize winner who thinks that as AI becomes smarter than human beings, we could face an existential threat. All right, these are huge issues. We need to slow it down. That's the first thing we need to do. Mr. Musk cannot run the world and his friends. So that's what I worry about.

[Jon Favreau]

Same. It's one of the things that keeps me up at night, for sure. And especially having two young boys who are going through the education system. You want to make sure they are trained for actual jobs that are going to exist out there and not just looking at their screens. Senator Sanders, thank you as always for joining Pod Save America. I really appreciate the time.

[Bernie Sanders]

Well, thank you, John. Keep up the great work.

[Tommy Vietor]

Thanks.

[Bernie Sanders]

You too.

[Jon Favreau]

Take care. Of. That's our show for today. Thanks to Bernie for coming on. And Dan and I will be back with a new show in your feed on Friday.

[Dan Pfeiffer]

Bye, everyone.

[Jon Favreau]

Pod save america is a crooked media production. Our show is produced by austin fisher, saul rubin, mckenna roberts and farah safari, with reed cherlin, elijah cohn and adrian hill. Our team includes matt de groat, ben hethcote, jordan kanter, charlotte landis, carol pelaviev, david towles, mia kennedy hellman ryan young and naomi stengel. Our staff is proudly unionized with the writers guild of america east.

[Tommy Vietor]

Hey, It's Tommy from Pod. Save America and Pot Save the World. Last year, 2,500 people joined us at CrookedCon for conversations with some of the smartest organizers, least annoying politicians, and most interesting voices in politics to talk about how to fix this mess. Even President Obama made a surprise appearance. We're doing it all again November 5th to 7th in Washington, D.C. with even more podcasts, panels, and workshops. Plus, there'll be drinks, which we'll need after the midterms. No matter which way way they go, get [e-mail] if you're a friend of the pod, you get a discount, too. See you there.