Jon Favreau (2:20)

All right, buckle up. I regret to inform you it's not all rainbows and butterflies out there today, guys.

Tommy Vietor (2:25)

No, not a fun show.

Jon Favreau (2:26)

We're going to talk about Trump's plan to deploy more troops who are now armed to more cities. Government says they're now planning on deporting Kilmar Abrego Garcia to Uganda because he won't plead guilty to charges that multiple judges have found flimsy at best. They also released the transcript of Ghislaine Maxwell's interview with the doj, which we'll dig into. Then we'll update you all on a few storylines that still haven't been resolved, even though they're getting less attention. And later, you'll hear Lovett's interview with the Atlantic's James Surwiecki on the Trump administration's move to take a stake in intel and possibly other companies. Who knows? Who can say? But first, Trump and his administration have spent the last several days using the power of the state to target people who've criticized the president or just made him angry. By now, you probably know that on Friday morning, the FBI raided the home and office of John Bolton, Trump's first term national security adviser, who's become a vocal critic of his former boss. The reporting suggests it has to do with his handling of classified information, though they haven't released much information beyond a tweet from Cash Patel saying that no one is above the law. FBI agents on a mission. Highly irregular statement from the FBI director about a raid that's in progress, to say the least. The head of the Defense Intelligence Agency was also fired following the report that Trump's strike on Iran is had only set back its nuclear capabilities by a few months, which contradicts Trump's obliterated take. The president then spent the weekend threatening people who he thinks were unfair to him on tv. Chris Christie, Wes Moore, NBC News, ABC News. We'll get to all that in a minute, but here's Trump in the Oval Office Monday responding to questions about the.

James Surowiecki (4:00)

Bolton raid search of John Bolton's home.

Jon Lovett (4:02)

And office from Friday.

Jon Favreau (4:03)

Have you been briefed on that?

Donald Trump (4:04)

Not been briefed, no. I read it just like you did. I was never a fan of his. I thought he was stupid. I thought he was, you know, a guy that only wanted to go into war. He liked killing people. I thought he was essentially a bad guy.

Jon Lovett (4:19)

Are more raids like the one on John Bolton's house coming?

Donald Trump (4:21)

More raids? I don't know. You'd have to ask the Department of Justice. They raided my house, I can tell you that. They did a big raid on my house. They took away everything that wasn't pinned down and they took away some of that, too. How did it work out? Oh, I see. We're in the overall, I guess it didn't work out too well for them, did it? They are very evil, very sick people, that group. And they. If they would have won the election, this country wouldn't exist as we know it. This country would have been a failed country.

Jon Favreau (4:51)

In the background there, you hear the South Korean president's translator. So I would, I would, I would enjoy having seen the camera just trained on the South Korean's president face as he's hearing about the sick and evil people and the raids.

Jon Lovett (5:05)

Yeah, it's just a little embarrassed. This is like, oh, oh, right. This is an international embarrassment.

Jon Favreau (5:09)

Oh, yeah. Oh, very much so.

Tommy Vietor (5:11)

Also, every time you look up, there's more gold. It's so gold in there right now.

Jon Favreau (5:15)

It's. It's on the walls on the charity or something. Ties.

Jon Lovett (5:18)

It's. Yes. It seems like a joke. It seems AI generated. It seems like someone did, like as a joke. Hey, show me what Donald Trump's Oval Office might look like in 2015. That. That's what he's actually doing.

Jon Favreau (5:31)

Remember, remember the, the picture we did for the Correspondence center when Obama made fun of Trump about what the White House would look like if Trump won? And it was like, Trump, we went, Trump Casino.

James Surowiecki (5:43)

Right, right.

Jon Favreau (5:43)

We had like a computer generated image of the whole thing. We should have, honestly, it wasn't far enough. We like, we, we missed, we missed the mark. We should have done full gold.

Jon Lovett (5:51)

We made that. And that was 2011 memories. And that was with Jesse, who years later would help here and become the design head here.

Jon Favreau (5:59)

See, look at that. Here we go. Things aren't as great now. What do you guys make of the Bolton raid? Tommy?

Tommy Vietor (6:05)

I mean, I think big picture, it felt like just another head on a pike, you know, warning to my enemies. And we know he has an enemy's list thanks to Kash Patel putting it in his book. What was it called? The Government Gangsters or something like that.

Jon Lovett (6:17)

That the children's one. No.

Jon Favreau (6:20)

It's funny.

Tommy Vietor (6:21)

That was a real question.

James Surowiecki (6:22)

I know, I know.

Jon Lovett (6:22)

Actually was a sincere question.

Jon Favreau (6:24)

I didn't know which book it was.

Tommy Vietor (6:24)

Yeah, I mean, look again, you know, John Bolton, Ben Rhodes's mentor. But I've never been a fan. I don't like his foreign policy. His politics is like kind of mustache, his vibe. But it does seem like he's getting punished and it is really weird. Like, initially it did seem like this raid was going to be Based on the 2020 prosecution of John Bolton for putting things in his book that the Trump people said he wasn't supposed to. But now they're leaking to the New York Times that Bolton mishandled classified material, which the CIA learned about when it was passed along to the FBI. And again, that's very sensitive stuff. And there is some speculation out there that Bolton did some work for the government of Qatar, and maybe that is related, but who knows? Like Kash Patel and Pambandi, by the way, also did work for the Qatari government.

Jon Favreau (7:05)

Can I just ask you, too? I mean, so the CIA angle that the New York Times reported this. I know the CIA collects intelligence overseas on foreign actors. Sometimes Americans, communication gets swept up in that. The idea that then the CIA director is going to take the communications that they. Or information on the Americans that they found through monitoring foreign agents or actors and then just, like, hand it over to the FBI. Does that happen a lot?

Tommy Vietor (7:31)

Well, there's a process for that. I mean, what you're kind of referencing is more like the NSA unmasking, which is like we intercept a call between an American citizen and some foreign person, and, like, the identity is masked in some products, then you have to unmask it. Right. That was a big controversy in Trump 1.0. If the CIA figures out that John Bolton is a spy for the Russians through counterintelligence operations or whatever, they will pass that along to the FBI for prosecution. But it is incredibly sensitive. I mean, by law, they're not supposed to do. Collect on Americans. Spy on Americans.

Jon Lovett (8:02)

Yeah. And the Times article about it. You might think that the article could have been from another era if you didn't know the participants in it, because it makes a point of saying only limited intelligence was shared, as if this was some serious. Like that they were taking it quite seriously. But then you remember, this is John Radcliffe, who's a hardcore Republican, former member of Congress, and Cash Patel, who worked for Devin Nunes, who's also, you know, was. Now runs Truth Social. Like, these are just a couple of sort of Trumpy guys. And then, like, you know, Trump saying, oh, like, I had no idea what this was gonna happen. And then you think, okay, first of all, he's. Who knows if that's true? But even if it is, that's why you put Cash Patel at the FBI. That's why you put Radcliffe at CIA or dni. That's why you put Pam Bondi as the head of the doj. They know what they're supposed to do.

Jon Favreau (8:52)

Yeah. And I mean, look, who knows? Maybe. Maybe John Bolton's a spy. Maybe he has committed a crime. We don't know, we'll. We'll see what happens.

Jon Lovett (8:58)

It's always the people you least expect. Someone who is universally beloved.

Jon Favreau (9:03)

Well, that's what I was going to say. This is, this is what they're doing. This is why it's so obvious what they're doing, right. Is they are purposely targeting unsympathetic characters who do not necessarily have a base of support. Right. John Bolton is a perfect example of that. The MAGA establishment, not a fan.

Jon Lovett (9:20)

He has Ms. 14 politics, basically.

Jon Favreau (9:22)

Liberals. Liberals, not a fan.

Jon Lovett (9:24)

Right.

Jon Favreau (9:25)

And so who's gonna, you know, who's gonna worry if about John Bolton? Who's gonna stand up for John Bolton?

Jon Lovett (9:30)

But first they came for John Bolton.

Jon Favreau (9:32)

Right? But like, well, well, and I know, like, we all have to do the throat clearing when we even talk about it, right?

Tommy Vietor (9:38)

I just did it.

Jon Favreau (9:39)

Yeah, we, I was kidding about the Ben Raf. No, I don't like his policies.

Jon Lovett (9:42)

And this is.

Jon Favreau (9:42)

But, but, but it's like, no, no, no. There's a guy who was a prominent critic of the administration. They have gone after him before and now, surprise, surprise, they found something on him again. Raided his house, bragged about raiding his house. J.D. vance was interviewed by Kristen Welker on Meet the Press over the weekend. And he said, we're investigating him, which is you just don't do. And even if it is all, Even if it turns out that there is evidence that he committed some sort of a crime, like, of course people are gonna think that you politically. This is why no one can believe anything anymore. What the Trump administration is doing is because it's. You have, like you said, you have Kash Patel, the head of the FBI, and Pam Bondi, who's just, you know, another advisor to the president. No independents there whatsoever. So you have that. You have Trump talking about it, joking about, oh, he's a bad guy, J.D. van said, we're investigating him. So, like, of course people are gonna think this is a fucking political prosecution or investigation. And it also sends a chilling message to anyone else who's criticizing the president, like, this could be you.

Jon Lovett (10:44)

Let's say it wasn't. Let's say this was a totally above board operation. You wouldn't live tweet it. You would, you wouldn't go, you wouldn't do an interview saying, we're investigating this person. You would actually go above and beyond because you cared so much about the independence. But they don't care about that. I will say, and look, I agree with all the throat clearing and it's important that we do It. But John Bolton made such a point of saying, like, he's not gonna support Trump, but he's gonna write in Dick Cheney's name because both sides are unacceptable. And I'm just. So, as a protest vote, I'm gonna write in Dick Cheney and then. And then. And makes jokes about the age of Biden at the time. Then Biden drops out. Then Cheney says he's voting for Kamala, and that leads John Bolton to be like, now, I don't know if I can even support Cheney. And it's like, all right, buddy. Like, I. You know, I give him credit. He.

Tommy Vietor (11:33)

Look, he's been a critic when everyone else has. Shut up. So I get John Bolton credit there. I really do.

Jon Favreau (11:36)

And I'm more like forest for the trees on this one. Like, John Bolton, Dick Cheney. I don't care who the fuck it is. They are. They are. You know, they start shooting people in the street and disappearing. People who. Like, I don't care what their politics are or what they've done. Like, the government shouldn't do that. Right.

Jon Lovett (11:51)

You're right. I'm sorry. I don't care either.

Jon Favreau (11:53)

The government.

Jon Lovett (11:54)

No, no. Yeah, no, no. I don't care either.

Jon Favreau (11:55)

I just. This is. I do think this is why they. He's picking these people. This is. We're talking about Chris Christie, too. Like, they're not. They're not picking the most popular people. This is why I've always been, and, you know, could eat my words on this, more skeptical, like, he's going to go fucking arrest Barack Obama. Because if you're being strategic about it, arresting Barack Obama or Joe Biden or Kamala, like, that would, you know, that would send people into the streets. Maybe, but. But not. No one's going into the streets for John Bolton or Chris Christie.

Tommy Vietor (12:17)

Yeah, but the. The. The top people on the enemy's list are, you know, former allies who turned.

Jon Favreau (12:23)

Against him and the people involved in his prosecutions.

Tommy Vietor (12:25)

Yes. In January 6th.

Jon Favreau (12:26)

Those are the. Those are the. And basically, he's gone after almost all of them now. Yeah. So we haven't talked about Pete Hegseth firing the director of the Defense Intelligence Agency for what seems like releasing a report that contradicts Trump's preferred storyline about the Iran bombings, just like he fired the guy who released a jobs report that contradicts Trump's preferred storyline about the economy. I don't know. What do you guys think of the consequences down the road of. Of the government silencing dissenting voices and information that displeases the President.

Tommy Vietor (12:56)

Yeah, I mean, so the DIA, for those who don't know, it's one of the 18 different components of the intelligence community. And they. They specifically focus on, like, military intelligence, military capabilities. And so like you said, after we bombed Iran, they were kind of first out of the gate with this assessment that said that the bombing only set Iran's program back a few months. That contradicted the total obliteration comments that enraged everybody. So I guess the message now is even collecting information that doesn't comport with what Donald Trump has said will get you fired. I mean, I guess we knew that from the BLS firing a few weeks ago, but, like, play that out for a minute. Imagine. Imagine Trump is a meeting with Xi Jinping. He decides, you know, they buy a bunch of Melania coin in advance or something. So he decides over, like, China is good now. And Trump decides, okay, going forward, we're now allies. Taiwan, we're not going to talk about it. Their military, the PLA's military. We're not going to talk about it. Human rights. Shut up. IP theft. Shut up. Is an intelligence analyst who, like, collects information about those things now going to get in trouble if they write them down and put them in a report? Because, like, that is certainly what this seems to say to the uniform military. It's like the military leadership. And also Hexath also fired a bunch of other, like, senior Navy leaders, like the head of Special Warfare, with just sort of no commentary. We know Laura Loomer got the head of the NSA pushed out a few months ago. So, yeah, I mean, very weird is happening.

Jon Lovett (14:19)

Yeah. Look, I think, speaking of Dick Cheney, we're old enough to remember that it was the Defense Intelligence Agency where Cheney and Rumsfeld went rooting around to try to find the right kind of evidence. So they go to the UN and claim that Saddam Hussein had a program of weapons of mass destruction. You know, intelligence being manipulated to confirm the priors of the people who want to change, say, the Defense Department's name to the Department of War can lead to really bad places. It already has. It can again.

Jon Favreau (14:50)

And, yeah, who's gonna work in Intelligence? Who's gonna work in the Defense Department? Now, why would anyone wanna do that?

Tommy Vietor (14:57)

MAGA chuds.

Jon Favreau (14:57)

Why would. Yeah, and like, why would they wanna. Like you said, it is writing the information down because you could see if they fired whoever they found leaking it. Right. Because obviously the report was leaked. But that's not what happened. It's not. This is the leaker. It's. This is the person who produced the accurate information or the information led the agency that did.

Tommy Vietor (15:16)

Yeah, yeah.

Jon Lovett (15:16)

And for all. And by the way, like who knows the conversations we're not hearing. Right. Maybe it's because refused to prod different report under pressure, refuse to go along with. I'm sure there'll be more reporting on this but like we have no idea what's going on. And Pete Hagg says fucking Pentagon. Other than leaks about how chaotic and messy it is and how he's getting rid of people that he feels threatened by and how it's overcome by paranoia. All great things at the most powerful military in the history of planet Earth.

Jon Favreau (15:37)

That's what you want there. That's what you want atop that military. So Trump was clearly watching the Sunday shows more than I can say for myself. And responded to an ABC News interview with Chris Christie by, let's see, he made fun of Jonathan Karl's hair. I have not seen lately.

Tommy Vietor (15:52)

Yeah, I don't know what his hair looks like. That's different.

Jon Lovett (15:54)

I think dreads were a mistake.

Tommy Vietor (15:57)

I just.

Jon Lovett (15:58)

But he went, but you know, he went on vacation to Jamaica and he.

Jon Favreau (16:00)

Did the thing he as one does.

Jon Lovett (16:04)

Old fashioned, I guess.

Jon Favreau (16:05)

He mocked the show for paying him $16 million. Just, you know, taking a little victory lap there. And then he called Christie sloppy and threatened to reopen the like decade old investigation into the former New Jersey governor's closure of the George Washington Bridge. He also threatened ABC News and NBC News, saying that they should be paying the government millions in licensing fees or else lose their broadcast licenses for unfair coverage of Republicans. Trump's government is already investigating Senator Adam Schiff, New York Attorney General Tish James, Fed Governor Lisa Cook, all for alleged mortgage fraud. And the President has of course called for the indictment imprisonment of Barack Obama, Hillary Clinton, John Brennan, James Clapper and others over a completely made up allegation about Russian interference. So a lot of Trump's threats turned out to be empty. Sure seems like he's following through on quite a few lately. I know it's unlikely that, you know, like I said, any of these individuals is gonna get people up in arms, but I don't know, it feels like all this retribution is being met with kind of a collective shrug.

Tommy Vietor (17:10)

Yeah, it's not a great trend line. What's the statute of limitations on a bridge closer, by the way? It feels like I was trying to.

Jon Favreau (17:16)

Figure out the date. I just googled it, but I was like, what if this was like a. It might have been a decade ago.

Tommy Vietor (17:22)

It was a long time ago. Yeah. I mean, the broader point is like, 99% of the time I go through life sort of implicitly assuming that we're going to make it as a country.

Jon Lovett (17:30)

Yeah, yeah, for sure.

Tommy Vietor (17:31)

You know, and then every once in a while, I have a conversation with someone, as I did this weekend, where they're like, oh, I actually have a bunch of money in Bitcoin cold storage that I'm storing in a foreign country. And I think, huh, am I just a. Am I a boiled frog, too?

Jon Favreau (17:45)

Tommy, I told you that in confidence.

Tommy Vietor (17:46)

Yeah, John was using. It's actually Trump coin. It's probably gonna go up in value. I'm counting on intel stock. But, yeah, this is. Yeah, the enemy's list is they're picking them off.

Jon Lovett (17:59)

I feel like this. There is this collective feeling among people who are paying very close attention. Like, it does feel like a shrug. It's like, what is the shrug? Like, what does it mean to feel like, why aren't people caring more? Why isn't something happening? And I do think it's a. It's a. It's a bit of. This is human nature, which is we do this in our own lives. Like, problems you can't solve, or just problems you don't want to deal with face admit to the size of. Right. Like, you have to admit you have a problem that you could. Like, that's. That's what happens with people that have addiction, whatever. You have to, like, face the problem and believe you can fix it. And part of it is all the points of pressure that might cause there to be pain or consequences for what Trump is doing here are not available to us because Congress is controlled by Republicans and they don't give a fuck. The DOJ is fully captured, so they don't give a fuck. Journalism just doesn't go as far as it used to because people are in their own feeds and not consuming information. There's just a report came out that Americans no longer, on average, read one book a year. Listen, it's unrelated to this, but it's not good.

Tommy Vietor (18:57)

No, it's not good.

Jon Favreau (18:58)

You know who's worried and up in arms? All the chatgpts. All the chatbots. The AI chatbots. They know what's going on. They're the only ones left with information.

Jon Lovett (19:06)

Yeah, the chatgpts are. They're, you know, look at how many.

Jon Favreau (19:09)

They'Re about to resist.

Tommy Vietor (19:10)

Poor, cheap, poor, abused.

Jon Favreau (19:13)

They know the things they know, but only Americans knew.

Jon Lovett (19:16)

I just don't know what we're like. Yeah, like, oh, you're really upset about this? Well, the people that can fix it don't give a fuck. And so, like, yes, right now, people aren't up in arms in a way that feels like it's commensurate to the scale of the challenge. But that's why we got to, like, do the fucking hard work to get people to come out and we can win a house in Congress. Then all of a sudden, we have some power. There's people that'll care.

Jon Favreau (19:37)

I also think people have a mistaken impression of how things operate in a regime, dictatorial regime, which is they think, oh, if the, you know, if the. If the dictator's going after their opponents, you know, it's just agents showing up at their house and taking them away in the middle of the night, and that's that. And even as we were talking about these cases, you're like, well, I don't know. Did anyone. Did anyone commit some little mortgage fraud? Do we know the evidence, right? Do we know if John Bolton is guilty or not? Maybe he is. Like, this is what they do. They figure out, okay, everyone has probably broken the law somewhere in life. And also, we don't have to tell anyone anything for a while, so we can pretend at least it's on the up and up with a little wink and a nod, as they've been doing. And, you know, then people will wonder what's going on, and they'll think maybe it's shady. And also, Trump threatens a million people all the time anyway and has for a decade. I mean, we were talking about this in the meeting this morning, and I mentioned ABC News and NBC, and you were like, didn't he already threaten them a couple times? Is that new? And I'm like, yeah, maybe. But, you know, I'm going to take your licenses unless you pay me millions. Like, maybe it's a tweet now. Pretty soon it's going to be like, you know, Brendan Carr actually doing it.

Jon Lovett (20:43)

He's also, I got to say, maybe. Maybe he switched to a stronger Adderall. He's doing more following up. Like, he's following up on stuff more.

Jon Favreau (20:50)

Like, it used to be the people to follow.

Jon Lovett (20:52)

He's got the people. I know, I'm joking, but he's got the people to follow up. Because it used to be he throws out a tweet or post about how we've got to free Tina Williams or Peters, whatever her name is, that woman in Colorado, and it's just a fit of pique, and I forgot about that. And Jared Polis says, there you go. But Jared Polis doesn't need to worry about that because it's never going to be harsh measures, but there's somebody keeping track and they do follow up. They do come back at you. Yeah.

Jon Favreau (21:15)

And then the last person we should talk about is he went after Wes Moore, the governor of Maryland. They've been in a back and forth over sending the National Guard to Baltimore. The murder rate in Baltimore is at a 50 year low. You know, still crime in Baltimore, still the, you know, Trump says it's the fourth most violent city or crime ridden city, whatever. So Moore invited Trump to come walk the streets with him. And Trump responded by calling Moore nasty and provocative. He used a tone, used a tone that was nasty and provocative by inviting.

Tommy Vietor (21:49)

Go take a walk. That's how every tech CEO has meetings these days.

Jon Favreau (21:52)

Just, you know, it's very passive aggressive. And. And Trump said he may cancel the funding that Congress appropriated to rebuild the city's Francis Scott Key bridge. The Trump described it as, I gave him the money and I might take it back. Which I don't even think that was. I think it was appropriate in 20. 20, 24.

Tommy Vietor (22:10)

Venmo.

Jon Lovett (22:10)

Yeah, it's not his money. It's also. Yeah, it's like, like it's similar to the Bolton thing. Like, if it even comes out to, like part of it is like the process is the threat. Right. Because like, Trump is so openly and brazenly saying, like, you won't get the money because I don't like you. Like, that would not hold up, but then the process of holding it up would be the problem. Same for Bolton. Maybe no crime will be there, but he has to get lawyers. He has to like, uproot his life to fight it.

Jon Favreau (22:33)

Yeah. And now, I mean, just imagine like a state losing funding you get from the federal government to rebuild a fucking bridge that collapsed through, you know, an accident.

Tommy Vietor (22:43)

Yeah. Very important bridge.

Jon Lovett (22:44)

So.

Tommy Vietor (22:44)

And I guess, you know, he just. All of these threats are designed to send a message to every other elected official out there because, like, Gavin Newsom has decided to burn the boats and tweet funny memes all day long. But other states are going to worry about getting federal funding in the wake of a disaster or, you know, what other executive branch help they might need.

Jon Favreau (23:12)

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Andy Richter (24:40)

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Jon Favreau (25:24)

So Baltimore may have to get in line for the military occupation because on Friday, Trump said that Chicago, New York and San Francisco may be next on his list. Sure enough, the Washington Post reported the next day that the Pentagon has already spent weeks planning a National Guard deployment to Chicago, a move that Mayor Brandon Johnson and Illinois Gov. J.B. pritzker both pushed back on quite hard on Monday. Meanwhile, national guard troops in D.C. are now carrying guns, so an expected move. But you know, it's here. And White House videographers are also accompanying federal agents during raids and arrests so they can fill our social Media feeds with content that owns the libs and, you know, stuff that the MAGA base can get off to.

Tommy Vietor (26:08)

That's what they like. Guys, we own ourselves, us libs, okay? We take plenty of videos of ourselves.

Jon Lovett (26:12)

Yeah, that's right.

Jon Favreau (26:13)

It's our liberal tears that help.

Tommy Vietor (26:15)

You know, they're watching the. Was the choir outside of the Abrego Garcia here.

Jon Favreau (26:19)

Oh, my gosh. Anyway, we watch too much Fox in our office. Trump is clearly enjoying himself as well. Here he is on Monday after signing executive orders aimed at ending cashless bail, prosecuting flag burners and ordering, quote, further actions to stop the crime emergency in.

Donald Trump (26:36)

D.C. so it used to be called the Department of War, and it had a stronger sound. Now we have a Department of Defense with defenders. It just sounded bad. He said, sir, on behalf of the Department of Defense. Defense. I don't want to be defense only. We want defense, but we want offense, too, if that's okay. So you'll make a decision. But, you know, as Department of War, we won everything. Come to think of it, there's your trophy for the World Cup. I think what I'm going to do is place the it right above the angel, right over there. That's solid gold, too. We're going to put it right up there.

Jon Lovett (27:10)

Look at that.

Donald Trump (27:11)

There's a solid gold trophy. They know how to get to me. You know, as you all know, Chicago is a killing field right now. And they don't acknowledge it. And they say we don't need them. Freedom. Freedom. He's a dictator. He's a dictator. A lot of people are saying maybe we like a dictator. I don't like a dictator. I'm not a dictator. I'm a man with great common sense, and I'm a smart person.

Jon Favreau (27:35)

Yeah. Not a dictator. Even though you wouldn't believe how many people are coming up to me, Mr. Trump, Mr. Trump, we want a dictator. No, no, no, not me. That's not me. I'm just common sense. I did see someone on Twitter called the office decor Saddam Corps.

Tommy Vietor (27:52)

Yeah, big time.

Jon Favreau (27:53)

I think that's a good. Yeah, it is very Saddam core.

Jon Lovett (27:56)

I think the new Department of War logo being kind of a southern old guy. It's the cracker barrel arm over a barrel and it says Department of War. I think it's Gildan the lily. I think it's Gildan the lily.

Jon Favreau (28:08)

This is, like cartoonishly fascist.

Tommy Vietor (28:10)

It is.

Jon Favreau (28:11)

It is in a way that if you told someone about it, that it was happening, who had been asleep for 10 years, they'd be like, Come on. That's too. Of course. Everyone got that it was fascist, right? How did people not know this?

Jon Lovett (28:24)

It's also like, man, you guys are sending out your social media people to film these arrests. Leni Riefenstahl knew how to compose a fucking shot. Oh, my God. You know what I mean? It's just like, there's no pride in the product. Like, if you're gonna be fascist, learn the rule of thirds. Yeah.

Tommy Vietor (28:42)

Learn how to score something. Also, historically speaking, remember the Republicans who liked limited government and personal freedom and talked about that stuff all the time? Not like the crazy libertarians, like, the dude in New Hampshire who tweets insane stuff like the libertarian wing of the Republican Party.

Jon Lovett (28:58)

Where.

Jon Favreau (28:58)

Where are those people? They're just hanging out.

Tommy Vietor (29:00)

They're just. Are they just gone?

Jon Favreau (29:01)

It's just a small but mighty crew at the American Enterprise Institute now.

Jon Lovett (29:04)

And Cato, don't forget Cato, who are.

Jon Favreau (29:06)

Like, every time I see a tweet from someone there, I'm just like, yeah, you got it. I know. I see they're pro immigration.

Tommy Vietor (29:12)

I'm retweeting the Cato guys all the time.

Jon Lovett (29:14)

Like, there's a big ten.

Tommy Vietor (29:15)

There's a comedian named Tim Dillon who we've talked about, I think maybe on rapid response stuff on YouTube, but I don't think he explicitly endorsed Trump in 2024, but he, like, was very critical of Democrats. Had J.D. vance on the show right before the election for this long interview. But he. Tim Dillon did this riff the other day on his show where he was saying how all of the things that Alex Jones has been worrying about for years are coming to fruition. The US Military on the streets, FEMA camps, evil companies like Palantir collecting all of our data and monitoring us.

Jon Favreau (29:44)

Where are the people who are worried about this?

Tommy Vietor (29:45)

Like, again, I know Alex Jones is a performance artist, and as he said about himself in court, but, like, there's a lot of people who sincerely care about these issues. And where are they?

Jon Lovett (29:54)

I think they. Maybe they didn't. I know.

Tommy Vietor (29:56)

I do think people like limited government, like, New Hampshire is an entire state built on loving limited government.

Jon Favreau (30:01)

Where are they? They're choosing die right now.

Jon Lovett (30:02)

Yes. Not only that, like, I talked about this with Surik. They are. They are. But like, I talked about the Suriki later. You'll hear it. But, like, okay, right, fine, they're libertarians, but they like order. They like law. The president is seizing the means of production. You know, he's taken over. He's demanding shares in publicly traded American Corporations, private companies. Right. And they're nowhere. They're nowhere.

Tommy Vietor (30:26)

It's communism.

Jon Favreau (30:27)

It might take more. I don't know. I mean, I'm sure you talked about this with Sorooki. I don't know if you talked about the wind story too. This was unfucking believable to me because again, it was a headline. I'm like, oh, Donald Trump shutting down wind projects. Like, oh, yeah, he doesn't like wind, so maybe he's like cutting funding from the government. No, no, no. There was like a, a wind farm that's 70% built, already set to generate like, enough electricity for like, just hundreds of thousands of people in Rhode Island. It's almost gonna be done and just pull in the permits now. Just the federal government saying, we don't want wind projects and wind projects that are actually in the process of being constructed with private money, we're gonna shut them down.

Tommy Vietor (31:04)

To your point earlier, about like, existential problems that are sort of hard to look in the face. Cause they're so dire and nothing's happening to solve them. Like, climate change is still a thing.

Jon Favreau (31:11)

Yeah.

Tommy Vietor (31:12)

As we all recall, there. There was this group that looks at sort of the intersection of climate and business. They found that $22 billion worth of clean energy projects have been canceled in the first half of 2025. A lot of that is like, car manufacturers scaling back EV production because we got rid of all the tax credits that incentivize the purchase of EVs. But like, big picture, electricity is just going to get more expensive. And wind generates, I think, about 10% of our, our electricity last year. Wind and solar, you get to about like 20% of electricity generation in the United States. And he's just killing off those industries at a time when we're also building these giant AI data centers that take like a city's worth of energy so that, you know, we can all get.

Jon Lovett (31:52)

A couple more boobs on those. Those ladies. So that I made that same joke with Sir Wikileder. Fuck. So.

Tommy Vietor (31:58)

So they tuned so that Grok can turn into Mecca.

James Surowiecki (32:01)

Hitler.

Jon Lovett (32:01)

Yeah.

Tommy Vietor (32:02)

You know, in real time.

Jon Favreau (32:03)

Someone said this, like, we, Our country is now building data centers and detention centers and camps. That's it. That's. That's nice. That's what the United States has come to. Now there are coal power plants that are set to retire. And the people running the coal power plants have not asked to for an extension. They were like, ready to shut them down. And the Trump administration is forcing them to stay open because they were not.

Tommy Vietor (32:25)

Profitable in many cases.

Jon Lovett (32:27)

Well, it's the equivalent of like rolling coal, right. Like it's not good for anybody. It doesn't do anything. It just makes the air worse. To own the people driving behind you, the Libs and the Priuses and the Tesla. Well it used to be Teslas behind.

Jon Favreau (32:37)

You and it's more expensive now. This is the thing like say you didn't give a shit about climate change. We're now there's cheaper energy that we're now trying to get rid of for more expensive energy because Donald Trump doesn't like what windmills look like and thinks that our coal past is something that we need to return to.

Jon Lovett (32:50)

It's like it's the difference between what they claimed, what, what Republicans said forever and what Trump actually is. Right. Like oh, they don't want to choose winners and losers, right. And the tax credits and all these things choose winners and losers. But Trump, I mean like again to your point about it, everything Alex Jones predicting coming true. He goes, he meets with the oil executives, he demands a billion dollars and, and then he's like, not only is he, not he, not only do they try to subsidize fossil fuels more in their big beautiful bill, some of which came out, but not all of it. They're now going to kill projects that are basically done that does for no, there's no justification, none, none other than to make energy more expensive and to push people towards dirtier forms of fuel. It's to drive up the profits of, of, of a dozen or two dozen fuels.

Jon Favreau (33:28)

Just, just wait till the, the federal government shows up at gas stations and just starts covering the prices of gas so that no one knows. They just, they'll charge your card. But yeah, they're not going to, they're not going to release the information spray painted because everything, because gas is going to be cheap, as cheap as it can be forever.

Jon Lovett (33:42)

Well, it's just you're competing with all these immigrants for this gas and they're using up the gas.

Jon Favreau (33:49)

So on the back to the occupation that's, that's happening too. Oh, one more thing on the Department of War though, because I just want to like the president of Peace, Nobel Peace Prize guy going to end forever wars. Going to end all the wars already.

Jon Lovett (34:02)

Ended a dozen wars.

Jon Favreau (34:03)

I'm a president of peace and like now doing a war department. What?

Tommy Vietor (34:06)

Yeah, I don't know. It's a throwback. You know throwback jerseys are pretty hot right now in a lot of sports. The NFL's, I own a couple throwback Jerseys. Maybe we're just throwing it back.

Jon Lovett (34:15)

He. Does he think that we got mired in Vietnam because of a brand issue? Does he think it was because our logo and slogan didn't capture the vibe? Is that the problem? Like, we didn't win World War II because we had a Department of War, and then we changed it and we lost our mojo? No, I don't think that that's what happened.

Jon Favreau (34:32)

That's not what happened at all.

Tommy Vietor (34:33)

Joe Rogan of the domino theory.

Jon Lovett (34:35)

Yeah, that's right. That's right.

Tommy Vietor (34:36)

Democrats would have.

Jon Favreau (34:38)

So Republicans are already lining up in Congress to introduce legislation to extend Trump's takeover of the D.C. police from 30 days to six months. That can't really happen without 60 votes in the Senate. Right. Which they don't have. You do sort of wonder if they're gonna try to somehow stuff that in a government funding bill and then dare the Democrats to, you know, shut down the government over it.

Tommy Vietor (35:00)

Wonderful.

Jon Favreau (35:00)

And I don't know if I've made up my mind on how I think that's gonna go yet, but what do you guys think? Like, is that a good thing to shut down the government for?

Jon Lovett (35:09)

Like, I'm sort of more and more in the Chris Murphy camp of, you cannot concede to the normal parts of governing because they benefit from the normal parts, and then they benefit from the abnormal parts. Like, oh, they want this so that it looks legal. Meanwhile, TikTok is still operating illegally. He's taken intel without any kind of congressional authorization. He's doing all kinds of things illegally as well. So why are you gonna give him the patina of illegal imprimatur when he has, like, had shown no indication that he won't do it either way?

Jon Favreau (35:41)

Yeah.

Jon Lovett (35:41)

Like, why are you gonna help him?

Jon Favreau (35:42)

It's tough. Cause that is. That's almost like, the argument.

Jon Lovett (35:44)

I know, I know.

Jon Favreau (35:45)

Because it's like, well, we can all vote and shut the government down over this. And then Trump can say, well, I don't give a fuck about Congress. I'm just gonna. Maybe even if he couldn't take over the police anymore, he's like, well, I still got the guard. The guard can go anywhere. That's my prerogative.

Jon Lovett (35:58)

But, like, we did this the last time.

Jon Favreau (36:00)

I know.

Jon Lovett (36:00)

And the. And the answer is, if you concede that, that his abuse of power makes him more powerful in Congress, he's already won. And so you just can't do that. You just can't. Yeah.

Tommy Vietor (36:09)

And then he's just.

Jon Lovett (36:09)

I hear that, but I'm saying it's the other side of the argument.

Tommy Vietor (36:11)

He's just gonna park, like, an F22 in Millennium park to protect the bean. And, like, be like, I cut the murder rate in Chicago. And everyone's like, thank you, sir.

Jon Lovett (36:20)

First bean he's gone here in years. You know what I mean?

Jon Favreau (36:23)

Oh, my God.

Jon Lovett (36:25)

He's never shown much care for the bean in the past.

Tommy Vietor (36:28)

I shouldn't have played that AI country.

Jon Favreau (36:29)

Song for you this morning.

Tommy Vietor (36:30)

That's what got.

Jon Lovett (36:32)

Can I talk about something serious? Which is all of a sudden, the National Guard is gonna be armed, and there's not even an explanation for why this is suddenly different. Right. Cause they're going on. They're saying that their mission has been a great success, that there's been no murders in DC and so if the Guard can have Gu. Why didn't they have him at the beginning? You waited. Why? To get us a little bit more comfortable. It admits to the reason they're doing it because they knew it would look worse to start out with guns. They're not some justification. It's not like the National Guard have felt unsafe and have been hounded. They're just looking at their phones outside the Washington Monument.

Jon Favreau (37:07)

Right. Well, and they're also hoping that everyone's like, you know, all the libs made a big fuss about the Guard. They're just taking pictures with people. They're just standing around guarding the monuments. Who cares? Meanwhile, you know, he signed another executive order today that was like, every state must get some of its guard ready to mobilize for President Trump in case he needs to put down civil disturbances, which is the real, you know, the goal here, and fight crime, whatever else. So now. Yeah, now they're gonna have armed guards, armed National Guard troops in the streets of major American cities. And maybe it's fine for now, but also maybe everyone's gonna, you know, shut the fuck up and stay home and not criticize Donald Trump anymore.

Tommy Vietor (37:43)

Yeah, it's scary.

Jon Favreau (37:44)

It's really scary because we can do this the easy way or the hard way. If everyone just lets the Guard there with their. And just patrolling the streets with their guns, then you're all okay, but.

Tommy Vietor (37:52)

And they're right. And you could see the Guard getting deployed with their guns to liberal areas right before an election, before the midterms, all the.

Jon Favreau (37:59)

Yeah, that's the. That's the next. Next thing to worry about.

Jon Lovett (38:01)

And then. And really, it's just a cover, right? Because the Guard is. The guard. They have. They're in camo. It looks wrong. It is Wrong. But it's the ICE agents that are going around doing more of the arrests, and it's the ICE agents that are the ones that are going to be standing outside of polling place. It's the ICE agents that are gonna be increasingly recruited from sort of the MAGA fanboy base with these enticements to get in to join. So, like, that, to me, is what's gonna ultimately happen. You got the guard there, you have that, you have ICE there. And all of a sudden they're trying to pull precinct votes down by 10 or 12 in some liberal areas and enough to swing some close races.

Jon Favreau (38:35)

Yeah, you know what? I'm with Murphy. I just think. And I know, you know, we're gonna probably have a couple conversations about this as we get close to the government funding deadline, but it's like, so, you know, Democrats don't have a plan to reopen the government once they shut it down. And what if Trump just says, that's fine and I'm gonna do whatever? Then people should know that the President, United States has decided to operate without Congress and without the government funded. And it's just gonna be a full. You know, like, it's probably more important for Democrats to tell people we have no part of this and we're fighting for it and we're fighting against it, and that's it. I don't know. Yeah, we're in extraordinary times now.

Jon Lovett (39:12)

We are only, what, seven months in. Yeah, we're seven months in. Look at where we are. Every CEO is marching into the Oval to pay fealty. There are troops on our streets. He's threatening to do more. Like, this is happening very. It's happening fast. It's happening right in front of our eyes. Do you think. Do you think six months from now that vote's gonna get easier?

Jon Favreau (39:31)

Everyone's just lining up to give him gold, gold, gold trophies. Gold from Tim Cook. There's gold everywhere.

Tommy Vietor (39:38)

Which everyone should watch the south park episode to see what, in their view, happens with those various bubbles that get presented to the President.

Jon Lovett (39:48)

Yeah, that does.

Jon Favreau (39:49)

Not the bean.

Jon Lovett (39:50)

Not the bean.

Jon Favreau (39:51)

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Jon Lovett (40:14)

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Jon Lovett (40:22)

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Jon Favreau (40:42)

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Andy Richter (41:30)

I'm here to tell you about my podcast, the Three Questions with Andy Richter. Each week I invite friends, comedians, actors and musicians to discuss these three where do you come from, where are you going, and what have you learned? New episodes are out every Tuesday with guests like Julie Bowe and Ted Danson, Tig Notaro, Will Arnett, Phoebe Bridgers and more. You can also tune in for my weekly Andy Richter Call in show episodes where me and a special guest invite callers to weigh in on topics like dating, disasters, bad teachers, and lots more. Listen to the three Questions with Andy Richter wherever you get your podcasts.

Jon Favreau (42:14)

CNN reported over the weekend that unsurprisingly, most of the arrests in D.C. have been focused on immigrants. And as the Times reported last week, the summer surge in immigration arrests has been a direct result of federal agents going after people with no prior criminal records or convictions. That was certainly the case with Trump's most notorious wrongful deportation, that of Kilmar Abrego Garcia. And there have been some big developments in that case since we last spoke about it. If you remember, Abrego Garcia was brought back from Seekot, arrested by the feds on dubious human smuggling charges in Tennessee, then released by a very skeptical judge so he could go home to Maryland while awaiting his trial. Apparently, the government then offered to deport him to Costa Rica if he pled guilty to their charges. When he refused, they told him they planned to deport him to Uganda instead. Then he showed up for a check in on Monday morning and was immediately detained by ice, which was expected. Luckily, Judge Polizinas ruled that he can't be sent to Uganda for now. Here's what Abrego Garcia had to say on Monday at the massive protest on his behalf before being detained by ice.

Andy Richter (43:17)

Independiente lo que pace hoy.

Jon Lovett (43:19)

Regardless of what happens here today con ice, promet en me esto in my ICE checking. Promise me this que se guerran luchando.

Andy Richter (43:32)

Orando CRE yendo la dignidad y la.

Jon Lovett (43:37)

Libertad no solo para mi, para todos. Promise me that you will continue to pray, continue to fight, resist, and love, not just for me, but for everybody. Continue to demand freedom. Thank you so much.

Jon Favreau (44:07)

I know Tim talked about this Miller when he interviewed Andri, but it's Hernandez.

Tommy Vietor (44:14)

Romero, another Sea Coat prisoner.

Jon Favreau (44:17)

It is just. It's unbelievable that the people who have been wrongfully deported, ripped away from their families, tortured, beaten, like, have this kind of grace and are saying, like, keep fighting for justice and all that. I mean, it's just. It's wild to me.

Jon Lovett (44:33)

Yeah, it also, like, sort of. I was thinking the same thing and just that it. It also speaks to, like, what do we have on our side? Which is. Yeah, people don't care about this enough right now. It just feels that way. We can't. People just aren't waking up to it enough. Right. There just isn't enough political pressure. It just all feels too close. But at the same time, like, the information is out there, right? Like, the story is still. We can still tell the story. Like, he doesn't. He hasn't had his thumb on the media. There's enough media, right? Like, it is not. It is not. For it won't be because of censorship that we don't stop this. It might be because of noise and nonsense and misinformation, but it won't be because the story couldn't be told. And I do think that, like, as hard as that is, it does point. Point away here, which is like, our job collectively is to figure out how to tell that story. Because there are moments like this where someone's talking about this openly and honestly, and they're not afraid to do that. And I do think that that is hopeful.

Jon Favreau (45:19)

Yeah.

Tommy Vietor (45:20)

And just be honest. He doesn't have the option to say what he really thinks probably. You know, this guy is like dealing with the capricious justice system that, that their. What the United States is saying to this man is take a plea deal, admit guilt for crimes you don't believe you committed, or we'll send you to Uganda. That's not a justice system.

Jon Favreau (45:37)

Like, it also. It also shows the White House is.

Tommy Vietor (45:40)

They're picking deportation locations as a way of further punishing these people.

Jon Lovett (45:45)

Right.

Tommy Vietor (45:45)

They're like, oh, you don't want to go to Costa Rica? Okay, how about Uganda? And you don't like dictators. How about Museveni? You'll get to know him real quick.

Jon Favreau (45:52)

You know, the other thing we should be thankful for, at least for now, is Judge Zinnis, when she heard this is like, this is why you cannot deport him to Uganda until at least we get through this, through this trial. And I say, because the fact that you offered him Costa Rica and then decided to say no Uganda, like, shows that you're just doing this in a capricious and punitive way.

Jon Lovett (46:13)

Well, and. And it. And it. It shows, right? Like with. They. They have been threatening to send people to all kinds of. They have sent people to South Sudan who are. Now, I think I'm this to. To the point of not being able to keep up with what the fuck they're going on. I think they're still in a holding facility in South Sudan.

Tommy Vietor (46:26)

Sudan.

Jon Lovett (46:27)

In this case, it's not just to send a message to other people about immigration. It is specifically to get out of their embarrassment of having drummed up these charges that can't be supported in a trial. They're afraid of a trial. They'd say, Costa Rica's pretty nice. Please.

Jon Favreau (46:41)

Right?

Jon Lovett (46:41)

Please. If you're such. He's so terrible, don't you want him to pay for his crimes?

Jon Favreau (46:45)

You know, a trial would expose how.

Tommy Vietor (46:47)

Fucking ridiculous and wrongly rendered him to El Salvador in the first place. Literally the only country on earth where they could not have deported him by law.

Jon Favreau (46:55)

Yes.

Jon Lovett (46:55)

The second part of it is if you. Zinnis not only said, you can't remove this guy anywhere, he has to stay in the place he's in right now. It was. She said. And this order counts, right? Because I know. I'm just saying it out loud, but you. Member of the. Of the. Of the. Of the bar as a lawyer who presumably wants to continue to be a lawyer, maybe. Yes.

Jon Favreau (47:16)

And who's the center of this?

Jon Lovett (47:18)

You. You are not pretending this order doesn't count because. Not written down because that's what you. You guys tried to pull the last time. When you claim that an oral order from. What's his name, Bloomberg, whatever. Bloomberg from Bozberg. You claim that didn't count. So those guys got sent to see cop because it wasn't written down. So this counts. And he's like, yes. Just speaks to, like, you have to talk to these people. Like, like sort of children. Like Aaron children.

Jon Favreau (47:41)

Well, meanwhile, as this is happening, DHS tweets, we're thrilled that he's going to Uganda.

Tommy Vietor (47:47)

Well, they did it as a, quote, tweet of Congresswoman Pramila Jayapal as just like another troll. Like, this man's life is just in furtherance of their trolling.

Jon Favreau (47:55)

Yeah. Of lips just all for the content. One federal detainee who's being treated quite well by the Trump administration despite actually being convicted for child trafficking, Ghislaine Maxwell. On Friday, the Justice Department released the transcript of her recent interview with Todd Blanche, Trump's personal attorney turned deputy attorney general. And you guys will be shocked to learn that a convicted criminal who's made clear she's looking for a pardon said that she's always known the one person who could grant that wish was a perfect gentleman who's never acted inappropriately around her full exoneration of Mr. Trump. You'll be even more shocked to learn that the perfect gentleman's personal lawyer did not follow up with any tough questions for the person his own prosecutors have said is a serial liar. I don't know if you guys went through the transcript. You guys have any big takeaways from the Maxwell Blanche interview?

Tommy Vietor (48:44)

I mean, the big takeaway is that it was just an absolute farce. Donald Trump's personal lawyer sets up an interview with a woman convicted of sex trafficking children with the sole goal of absolving Donald Trump and his associates of any wrongdoing. And he asked, I think, I think someone counted. He asked many more questions about Bill Clinton than Donald Trump, even though this whole controversy, the reason we're talking about this is because Donald Trump refuses to release the Epstein files. And everyone's wondering why. And also, like Blanche would drop lines of inquiry when it got close to Trump or when she mentioned, like, associates of Epstein being in the Cabinet. And in the process, though, Blanche gave Ghislaine Maxwell this opportunity to lie and rewrite history for herself. And she's a liar. She's an obvious motivation to lie. She got better treatment after agreeing to have this conversation. But in the process, you've got these Epstein victims and their families just getting going through this traumatic nightmare all over again. And for example, the family of Virginia Giuffre, who is one of Epstein's victims who died by suicide earlier this year, released a statement saying, we are outraged. The contents of these transcripts is in direct contradiction with felon Ghislaine Maxwell's conviction for child sex trafficking. During Dag Todd Blanche's bizarre interview, she has never challenged about her court proven lies providing her a platform to rewrite history. I mean, it's like truly a. A really disgusting, disgusting farce.

Jon Lovett (50:04)

Yeah, like that. It reads more like a deposition in a civil case where Trump's lawyer is trying to gather the information that he needs in this civil case to help his client get out of paying any kind of restitution. Like, it doesn't read like an investigation. Doesn't read like a criminal investigation. It also is clear like, Blanche is not that prepared. Right. Doesn't clearly know the fact. He's not there because he's not there to create a body of evidence. He's there to exculpate Donald Trump.

Jon Favreau (50:29)

He didn't bring any of the lawyers in the Justice Department who are still working there, who worked on this case.

Jon Lovett (50:34)

The lawyers, the lawyers who said that Ghislaine Maxwell couldn't be trusted, didn't tell the truth, never, never admitted her complicity in this, showed no kind of remorse for what, what she participated in. But I do think for me, that the second big takeaway is the other. Like, it's sort of the other side of that coin, which is because Blanche was Trump's personal attorney and basically is still acting as that. And because DOJ is not independent and because nobody takes Ghislaine Maxwell seriously and understands her motives, the fact that Trump has so corrupted and polluted this process with his own personal politics, it doesn't work. This doesn't end it. It doesn't do anything. It actually kind of. It didn't help in one way or another. It didn't make a big splash that brought more attention to the story. It kind of came and went a little bit, but at the same time, the fact that she's saying all these things that, that. That seem to be positive about Trump doesn't matter. Like, the story goes on, the need for deposition goes on, the demands for release go on.

Jon Favreau (51:26)

Well, they also, several judges now have said that the Trump administration's request to release the grand jury transcripts is an obvious distraction because they should know that there's nothing in the grand jury transcripts that would illuminate any new information about the case. And also I think that the DOJ gave the first tranche of Epstein documents to Congress. And you know, Robert Garcia, the top Democrat on the Oversight Committee, he was like, I don't know, like 90% of these pages have been public already. They gave us mostly public information.

Tommy Vietor (52:01)

Yeah. And I think what basically they've released like 1 or percent or 3% of what is believed to be in the totality of these files. And obviously you're not going to release like graphic images of underage people or anything like that, but there's a lot of documentation that that is still out there that's not been released that they're clearly just trying not to release. And that is the part of that, that this is just a complete and total farce.

Jon Favreau (52:20)

I will say the one sliver of good news here. Did you guys see that? James Comer, the top Republican on the Oversight Committee, has finally decided, okay, maybe we need to hear from Alex Acosta.

Jon Lovett (52:30)

I saw that and I'll tell you, we're all conspiracy theorists now. So they said they're going to. It's for a transcribed meeting. That's what it said. There's not gonna be a recording of it. I guess maybe that's part of the agreement, I'm not sure. But at this point, how on earth can we trust James Comer and Alex Acosta?

Jon Favreau (52:50)

You don't think they'll button this up?

Jon Lovett (52:52)

Well, I think they will button it.

Tommy Vietor (52:53)

Up is the problem.

Jon Lovett (52:55)

Is the problem.

Tommy Vietor (52:55)

Well, the thing that's just worth noting politically about the release of this Maxwell transcript is basically every moron who went to the White House and held up an Epstein files part one binder when Pam Bondi first snowed them all into cheerleading whatever bullshit PR thing she did, has basically declared that the Maxwell testimony is all they need to hear. Right. So there is a. There's a subset of MAGA influencers who built their audiences on the back of pushing Epstein related stuff, usually about Bill Clinton or Democrats, is now saying they're satisfied by hearing this disgusting woman who is serving a 20 year sentence who herself abused underage girls. They think that what she says is. Is gospel.

Jon Favreau (53:40)

Fucking gross. Obviously there's a ton of other shit going on as well. Trump got asked on Monday about why he's gone silent on Gaza, which the Israeli government continues to bomb and starve. He was asked about the Putin Zelensky meeting. He said he was setting up, which the Russian foreign minister has basically said isn't happening. There continue to be horrific stories every day about more wrongful detentions, stories about more layoffs because of the tariffs, stories about an insane level of corruption in the White House, on and on and on. We wanted to bring up these stories in part because they were each at one point at the center of the political debate, dominating the news cycle, and then just as quickly moved on to the periphery of what the White House and D.C. and a lot of political press is talking about, which seems like a problem. But first, anything you guys want to say about where we are with these stories or any others I didn't mention? Tommy, you want to talk about Gaza and also Russia?

Tommy Vietor (54:31)

Yeah, I mean, like, it's just, it's so frustrating because he just chums the water every day with some new outrage and then he just is never held accountable for anything. There's no follow up on anything. And I just do think it's worth noting that again during the campaign, Trump said he was going to end the war in Ukraine in 24 hours. It's August 25, so we've missed that deadline by a bit. But even, you know, after the Alaska meeting with Putin, Trump said, okay, there's going to be a bilateral meeting between Putin and Zelensky that hasn't happened yet. And he said, we're going to figure out with the Europeans what a security guarantee for Ukraine looks like. That hasn't happened yet. So there'd be a trilateral leading with Trump, Zelensky and then Putin. Nothing about that. And even today, I don't know if you guys noticed, he was talking about Putin going to Alaska and taking that meeting as if it was some sacrifice for Putin.

Jon Favreau (55:10)

Yeah, Just like literally the office for.

Jon Lovett (55:12)

A while, like, oh, it's such a coup that we got the meeting.

Jon Favreau (55:14)

Yeah.

Tommy Vietor (55:15)

And like, it just, it couldn't have been a bigger gift to Putin to be welcomed back to the United States into the international fold after invading Ukraine in 2022. The full scale invasion. And then similarly on Gaza, like there was this global outcry about the starvation in Gaza a few weeks ago. It seemed in that moment like Trump might pressure Netanyahu. But the opposite has happened again. Like, Hamas just agreed to a temporary ceasefire deal. It was very similar to one that the Israelis had agreed to, like, I think in July. But rather than accept it and rather than get out more hostages, Netanyahu has completely changed his negotiating posture and saying he needs a permanent agreement that gets out all the hostages and Ends the war. And again, like those details, set them aside for a second. Like, the key point is Trump, he's like bragging every day about how he's ending wars, but he's not doing anything to pressure Netanyahu to end this one. And the Israeli government is drastically ramping up settlement construction in a way that's going to just kill off any hope of a Palestinian state. Like talk of a two state solution right now is incredibly naive. And it will soon be. There just will be literally no hope of a contiguous Palestinian state given the settlement construction. And the Trump administration supports. Full on supports it.

Jon Favreau (56:26)

So it's just, you know, so killed a bunch of journalists today. Yep. The Israeli government and they sort of bombed a hospital. And then also as people were trying to rescue people, then they bombed it again. Right on. Right as the world was watching Double tap.

Jon Lovett (56:42)

And he had to. And then Yahoo. Had to.

Jon Favreau (56:44)

Mishap. He called it a mishap, a tragic.

Jon Lovett (56:46)

Mishap, which he had to do because it was so thoroughly captured on camera and so obviously and wrong. And they had to claim it was a mishap.

Jon Favreau (56:56)

And you see, Trump was asked about it and he's like, oh, I haven't seen that. I haven't seen the news.

Tommy Vietor (56:59)

It was like 11 o' clock Eastern time.

Jon Favreau (57:00)

Which, like, who knows, maybe, maybe that's true, maybe it's not. The guy doesn't pay much attention. He's just living in the present. Like all of us forever.

Jon Lovett (57:09)

Well, yeah, like, you know, he finds the Epstein story distasteful, so he says, cover something else. And then Fox News dutifully starts covering crime more. Trump sees that and says, there's a lot of crime in D.C. i better do something about it. Kind of falling into his own bear trap. And this is not what's on Fox News. It's not on what he is seeing. So it doesn't feel as important to him. And so he moves on to the next thing.

Jon Favreau (57:33)

Yeah. And it's why, it's one of the reasons, I think he holds so many press avails every day. Because he knows that if he's in trouble from whatever happened the day before or people are gonna ask him questions, he's always got something new to announce and then people can talk about that. And you know, I know we had the whole distraction conversation, but it doesn't have to be a distraction from everything, but it is a. Like, we're moving on and I'm gonna do something else now.

Jon Lovett (57:56)

Yeah. Like, it's funny. Cause it does feel like, oh, so are you guys saying that this is a distraction from Medicaid cuts? And I think it's just like, let's. It is not. But I think it's okay to acknowledge, like, he is moving very quickly and he is doing a lot on multiple fronts because he knows that is destabilizing to the people that are trying to. To fight him. And because he doesn't care about results, he doesn't care about outcomes. He cares about the immediate press hit and the headline. He doesn't care about the consequences of launching so many initiatives, signing so many orders, claiming so many peace plans and processes all at once, because he just has to get to the next day.

Jon Favreau (58:32)

Yeah. And meanwhile, it's like, you do start getting numb to the stories, right? There was an outcry over Abrego Garcia, over Andre Romero Hernandez and Seekot in general. And now, you know, they're out of sicot and back in Venezuela and the deportations continue, and people like legal residents keep getting swept up, you know, torn away from their families, U.S. citizens. ICE is continuing to, like, tase and beat people who have not done anything wrong, who are here legally. And it's just like, there's so many of the stories. You're just like, okay.

Jon Lovett (59:07)

And I do think, like, maybe, you know, I think sometimes, like, we try to figure out, like, okay, what is the conversation where there's some, like, not to find hope in every terrible fucking story, but more like, what's productive, right? Like, how do we be productive?

Jon Favreau (59:22)

How do we fight this?

Jon Lovett (59:22)

How do we fight this? And I think. And like. But I do think it's worth acknowledging that part of the challenge is going to be that over time. You know, the reason we were talking about Kilmar Abrego Garcia today is because of a victory, right? Because he was brought back and the Trump administration is being fought on that and the line is holding on that case. Okay? But in the months since, he's also unleashed ICE across the country. Like, we can lose over time, even while racking up these small victories. Because this. And this was. We talked about this from the very beginning, which is slowly but surely wins and losses, your baseline moves, and the country changes. And I think it's just okay to be honest about the fact that that is a very real threat. And more than a threat, it's something we're watching happen, which makes fighting him harder, but is just the reality of it.

Tommy Vietor (60:10)

It's just figuring out what accountability looks like with this guy is so hard because, yeah, he takes it, does a million press avails in the Oval Office. And he took questions three times today, three separate times today, which is just unheard of for any White House. But the White House is full of a couple real reporters and then the dumbest people on the planet, like Marjorie Taylor Greene's boyfriend. And so Trump gets away with just asserting things over and over again, that he's cutting all these peace deals. And then meanwhile, he has real leverage to force the Israelis to accept a ceasefire proposal from Hamas and he's not taking it. And he continues to brag about ending a war between in the Congo between them and Rwandan back rebels. Yet there was a Human Rights Watch report a couple days ago about how the M23 rebels were like the primary group killing people in the region for lack of a debris version of this. But they killed 140 people last month despite this, like, peace deal Trump brokered. And no one just asked him that question. Hey, sir, I know you just said you, you just went on for 10 minutes about how, hey, some people think you're racist, but you did this peace deal with Rwanda and Congo, but actually there was a massacre last month. Are you aware of that? Even, you know, there's just like no journalism, there's no follow up, there's no accountability in any way. And it's just, I don't know, it's infuriating.

Jon Favreau (61:22)

Yeah. When at least half the questions to him are answered by him, starting with, oh, I love that question. Thank you so much. What a great question.

Jon Lovett (61:31)

It's funny though, right? Like, it's. It's this, this is like, yes, he gets ridiculous questions, but he's also taking more questions than any president, like, certainly in our lifetimes. Right. Like day to day. He takes a ton of questions.

Tommy Vietor (61:45)

Yeah.

Jon Lovett (61:46)

So it isn't like it. He is getting hard questions mixed in with these ridiculous ones as well. But they can't cover everything because A, some of them are taken up by these other people and B, there's just too many fucking threads to follow on any given day.

Jon Favreau (62:01)

Yeah.

Tommy Vietor (62:01)

And they punish the reporters who really go after him. And if you piss him off, he yells at you. Like, remember when he screamed at like Peter Alexander and told him how bad he was? Then he moves on to again, like Marjorie Taylor Greene's boyfriend.

Jon Lovett (62:12)

Yeah.

Jon Favreau (62:12)

I was gonna say he's taken a lot of questions, but imagine him doing the same thing if the people shouting questions at him were Peter Alexander, Kaitlan Collins, Tapper, you know, Welker. Right. Like it was just follow up and they go.

Tommy Vietor (62:26)

Because there are people Those people are.

Jon Lovett (62:28)

Mixed in, but they're not coordinated because there's. Because someone's always ready to come in with, like, a Haymaker of, like, Mr. President, your skin's never been better. But by the way, though, like, Vance is doing the Sunday shows. Right? Like, there are opportunities to question them. There really are. Yeah, Right. Like, they are. They are able to. They are able to do this despite the fact that they do do those interviews and. And, like, see value in it.

Jon Favreau (62:48)

Yeah. We haven't even talked about Vance's Welker interview of the full thing. But it is a good example of, like, he lies so effortlessly and. But it was. It's also so obvious and such bullshit. But when you feel like you need to cover all the news with him and you only have 20 minutes, 30 minutes, then you just have to move on. And I do miss the. Some people did this with Trump. Once in a while, they're like, all right, we're going to stay on one topic and we're going to get into all your bullshit, and you're not getting up until we get the right answers. You know, like, I do think that's a. But if I had Vance for a sit down, like, that's the strategy.

Jon Lovett (63:20)

I just. I would really want to focus on how he thinks World War II ended.

Jon Favreau (63:24)

I know.

Jon Lovett (63:24)

That's fucking nuts. You're a smart guy. What are you talking about?

Jon Favreau (63:28)

Well, he knows. He's just lying. All right, one last thing that's hopefully a little lighter before we get to the interview. For those of you worried that ICE's big recruitment push means that the masked agents roving your streets might actually be beta lib cucks. Trump announced in the Oval Office today that he's 100% on the case.

Donald Trump (63:44)

Now they have to pass a toughness test. If they're not tough, we don't want them for this job. They might be great for other jobs, but not for this job.

Jon Favreau (63:52)

One paragon of American toughness is already submitting himself to the rigors of ice. Noted Superman portrayer Dean Cain. If you haven't seen the footage of him doing the obstacle course, please enjoy. This time, Dean Cain isn't flying there. He's going through that obstacle course and training to be an honorary ICE agent. He was working hard out there. And this is exactly what those recruits will do as they're picked one by one. And they're at the Federal Law Enforcement.

Jon Lovett (64:16)

Training center in Brunswick, Georgia.

Jon Favreau (64:17)

I love this. I love it.

Tommy Vietor (64:19)

I just love that. ICE training is like, okay, grab this sex doll and Drag it a few feet. Okay, now. Now slowly climb through about four feet of pipe. And then when you get to this obstacle that you're clearly supposed to climb over, just go through it.

Jon Lovett (64:32)

And now here's a slow motion.

Jon Favreau (64:35)

Here's a.

Jon Lovett (64:36)

Here's a crying woman. Yell at her. Tell her it's her fault. Tase her.

Jon Favreau (64:43)

Working harder. Hardly working. Dean Cain. That was a. That was brutal.

Tommy Vietor (64:47)

He's running at like 4.9 on a treadmill there. He's not moving too fast.

Jon Favreau (64:51)

It's been.

Jon Lovett (64:51)

It's been a long time since Lois and Clark. Yeah, well, that shows from the 90s.

Jon Favreau (64:56)

He is not fitting in that uniform.

Jon Lovett (64:57)

No, he's not fitting in the.

Jon Favreau (64:58)

I'm not talking about ice.

Jon Lovett (65:00)

When did Gene Kane play Superman?

Jon Favreau (65:02)

1996. 7. I. I looked this up the other day when he first came up. That was the last season of Lois.

Jon Lovett (65:07)

I love that show. I was gay. I listen. He was hot. He was.

Tommy Vietor (65:12)

Did you guys see Tim Miller on Pierce Morgan with Dean Kane? It's worth watching cuz Tim really goes hard at him. But Dean Kane gets really, really mad that Tim keeps saying ICE is hiring a bunch of unqualified idiots, like former actors. And he gets really mad.

Jon Favreau (65:28)

At one point, he yells at him.

Tommy Vietor (65:29)

And I was a former NFL player, so I was like, did he play in the NFL?

Jon Lovett (65:32)

Really?

Tommy Vietor (65:32)

Apparently Dean Cain was a really good athlete. He played at Princeton. He was a defensive back. And then he like signed with the Buffalo Bills, but got hurt in training camp. But you can't call yourself an NFL player, Dean, if you just went to training camp. You got to make the 53.

Jon Favreau (65:46)

Yeah. And now he just. Just mopes through a ropes course like, whoa, whoa.

Tommy Vietor (65:50)

Like, being an ICE is not a fun job, I don't think. Unless you really, really like to.

Jon Lovett (65:56)

Well, he's also 59.

Tommy Vietor (65:58)

Does he want to, like, just go beat up people? Like, what does he want to do here?

Jon Favreau (66:00)

That sounds like.

Jon Lovett (66:00)

Right. Well, that's the problem with who they're recruiting. It's like part of, you know, do we need a bunch of libs to go sign up for ice?

Jon Favreau (66:08)

Maybe. Oh, probably not. Well, now that, you know, you can be as young as 18, you can be as old as 60. They've changed the age limits and they're paying you money and they're forgiving your college loans, and then they're just going to, you know, they've cut the Wall Street Journal, went and did a story where they watched ICE training for six hours. And one thing they notice is they've Cut the training time from 16 weeks to eight weeks. And basically it's people who have never, you know, fired a gun before. Had a gun before. And they're just like eight weeks of training. We're going to give you a gun. We're just going to send you out there.

Tommy Vietor (66:39)

Crawl through that pipe.

Jon Favreau (66:40)

Crawl through that pipe. It doesn't matter how fast.

Tommy Vietor (66:42)

Use your badge.

Jon Favreau (66:43)

Yeah. You have a week to crawl through the pipe.

Jon Lovett (66:46)

Remember GI Jane when, like, GI Jane refused to go along the lower standards so she like, she kicked the stool out of the way because she was going to hop the wall. The full wall. Yeah.

Tommy Vietor (66:55)

Yeah.

Jon Favreau (66:55)

I only remember Demi Moore shaving her head. That was it.

Tommy Vietor (66:57)

That was like a controversy, right?

Jon Lovett (66:59)

Yeah, there was controversy around GI Jane. That's when he was playing Superman.

Jon Favreau (67:03)

Lois and I was gonna say Lois and Clark. GI Jane. Bill Clinton was president.

Tommy Vietor (67:06)

Dean Cain was also in Beverly Hills 9, 020 at some point.

Jon Favreau (67:09)

Really?

Tommy Vietor (67:09)

So says my GPT. I just checked though.

Jon Favreau (67:13)

Dean Cain, your GPT took a break from worrying about fascism.

Tommy Vietor (67:18)

Yeah.

Jon Favreau (67:20)

Anyway, anyway, good guy. All right. We're going to take a quick break, but two announcements before we do that. The newest season of Crooked's award winning limited series is out. Shadow Kingdom Cole Survivor exposes one of the deadliest battles in United Mineworkers history. It's hosted by Niccolo Minoni, who offers new details about an infamous murder trial that rocked the country in the 1960s and reshaped the American labor movement. First two episodes are out now. Listen on the Shadow Kingdom feed wherever you get your podcasts. Or better yet, Friends of the Pod. Subscribers can listen to the full season of Shadow Kingdom right now. Join friendsofthepod@qriket.com friends also, for those of you who watch the pod and don't love ads, you can now stream ad free video of pod, Save America and your other favorite shows with a paid subscription to cricket. Ad free video is available now on Supercast substack and YouTube. Visit qriket.com friends to learn more. This is an ad by BetterHelp. These days it feels like there's advice for everything. Cold plunges, gratitude journals, screen detoxes. But how do you know what actually works for you? I guess you can try them all. With the Internet and information overload about mental health and wellness, it can be a struggle to know what's true and what actions to take these days. Using trusted resources and talking to live therapists can get you personalized recommendations and help you break through the noise. As you all know, we are the therapy Boys. And it feels good. Feels good to talk to someone and just unload your problems.

Jon Lovett (68:57)

Yeah. Like, I, I gotta. I'll just say, you know, I'll just, I'll anonymize it so you don't know what it's about, really. But like, I was talking to my therapist the other day. I was like, I got. I gotta work with these two bozos. And like, I don't want to say.

Jon Favreau (69:09)

Who they are, but Elijah and Dan.

Jon Lovett (69:11)

I was like, these two bozos. You see this, this woman has been making tiktoks about how she fell in love with her therapist because her therapist was sending her secret signals. Oh, man.

Jon Favreau (69:23)

There's a whole discourse on it.

Jon Lovett (69:25)

We shouldn't be having the phones.

Jon Favreau (69:26)

No.

Jon Lovett (69:27)

But we should be using the Internet for good purpose.

Jon Favreau (69:30)

Like to zoom with your therapist.

Jon Lovett (69:31)

For sure.

Jon Favreau (69:32)

Which you can do on BetterHelp.

Jon Lovett (69:33)

Exactly.

Jon Favreau (69:33)

Because if you don't want to go in person, BetterHelp is the place you want to go. Because you can just, you know, from the comfort of your home, I guess. What is that? That's what. That's. I guess that's talking to a therapist. With over 30,000 therapists, BetterHelp is the world's largest online therapy platform, having served over 5 million people globally. And it works with an average rating of 4.9 out of 5 for a live session based on over 1.7 million client reviews. It's convenient, too. You can join a session with a therapist at the click of a button, helping you fit therapy into your busy life, plus switch therapists at any time. As the largest online therapy provider in the world, BetterHelp can provide access to mental health professionals with a diverse variety of expertise. Talk it out with BetterHelp. Our listeners get 10% off their first month at betterhelp.com PSA that's betterhelp.com PSA.

Andy Richter (70:19)

Hi there, it's Andy Richter, and I'm here to tell you about my podcast, the Three Questions with Andy Richter. Each week, I invite friends, comedians, actors and musicians to discuss these three questions. Where do you come from, where are you going, and what have you learned? New episodes are out every Tuesday with guests like Julie Bowe and Ted Danson, Tig Notaro, Will Arnett, Phoebe Bridgers, and more. You can also tune in for my weekly Andy Richter call in show episodes, where me and a special guest invite callers to weigh in on topics like dating, disasters, bad teachers, and lots more. Listen to the three Questions with Andy Richter wherever you get your podcast.

Jon Lovett (71:05)

On Friday night, amid an epic news Dump. Donald Trump praised intel and its CEO while announcing that the US government had just taken a 10% stake in the American chip manufacturer, mere days after calling for that same CEO to resign immediately over his supposed ties to China. Joining me now to help figure out what the heck is going on here is James Surwicki, who writes about economics for the Atlantic and Fast Company and who's been covering finance and business for decades. James, thanks for being here.

James Surowiecki (71:31)

Thanks for having me on.

Jon Lovett (71:32)

Let's just start with this. Can you just walk us up to the investment to understand what kind of position intel was in and what the challenges were that it was grappling with.

James Surowiecki (71:47)

So intel is obviously the biggest American chip manufacturer. That is to say, they make chips in the United States. And you're all familiar with intel inside, they built an enormously successful business primarily by providing chips for computers, PCs and the like. But over the last, I don't know, let's say decade, 15 years, let's say the last decade, they have really run into trouble because they are not making the kind of GPUs that the general processing units that companies like Nvidia and AMD Advanced Micro Devices make that are powering things like artificial intelligence and the like. So intel has been trying to sort of recapture a part of that market and to become essentially what it once was. And it's invested a huge amount of money. I mean, I can't remember the number exactly, but it's something like $109 billion that it put into capital expenditures over the last five or 10 years. But, but it's been struggling. And this has been an issue for, obviously for intel shareholders. And I think also it became an issue for a lot of American policymake makers who saw it as a, a problem that America would not have a chip manufacturer that was making chips in the United States. And so as part of the CHIPS act, which was passed under the Biden administration, the point of the CHIPS act was to subsidize chip manufacturing in the U.S. not just for intel, but for other companies as well. And, but intel was going to be one of the chief beneficiaries of this. And so that's kind of where we stood as of, I don't know, let's say, a week ago. The other thing that's worth mentioning is you talked about the CEO. He's a new CEO who was essentially hired to replace the previous CEO, who, you know, was basically let go because the company, while spending huge amounts of money, was not really delivering on the profit front, which is obviously what shareholders care about.

Jon Lovett (73:56)

So intel isn't making the right chips. Like, if you want to make a fake photo with seven boobs on a beautiful woman, 25 fingers, their chips don't do it. So they're in trouble, but they're about to get a bunch of money through a law passed by Congress, through the CHIPS Act. A bunch of many billions of dollars.

James Surowiecki (74:15)

Yes.

Jon Lovett (74:16)

In a bill that Trump hates. Because it's a Biden bill.

James Surowiecki (74:19)

Yes.

Jon Lovett (74:20)

It's in that context that Trump calls for the CEO to resign. Then there's a meeting at the White House between the CEO and several members of the administration. The tone becomes much more conciliatory. And then a few days after that, we get this announcement. Trump is saying, great news. I just got a 10% stake in intel, and it cost us nothing. What was your reaction to that and what have you learned about it? Like what? Like, what is this?

James Surowiecki (74:52)

So there are a couple of things to. To keep, to keep in mind here. The first thing is that this is actually one case where Trump, I think, is actually telling the truth. So when intel, in its press release announcing the deal, intel sort of tried to frame it or sort of fudge it and make it sound as if the United States was putting new money into the company in exchange for this stake. Because, you know, what the US government is basically doing is it's essentially taking 10. It's 9.9% of intel. The US government is going to own almost 10% of 1 of the most important companies, arguably, certainly historically, one of the most important companies in America. This is incredibly unprecedented. There are definitely been times where the US government has taken stakes, most obviously in 2008 during TARP. But they typically, in fact, maybe have always come in times of crisis where the companies were. Either we had a broader financial crisis, or the company was really struggling. Intel struggling, but it's still worth $100 billion. It's not, you know, on the verge of going under. So this was a really startling thing. And basically, what I think the way to think about it is basically Trump and Howard Lutnick, who's the Commerce Secretary and has become sort of Trump's kind of fellow deal maker, effectively, I think intel was coerced into giving the government roughly 10% of the company in exchange for those Chips act grants that effectively it was already supposed to get. And the idea is like, we are going to release these grants to you. We will give them to you, but only in exchange for 10% of the company.

Jon Lovett (76:38)

So this is what's so strange to me. About this, right? Howard Lutnick and the CEO film, like, basically a hostage video where, yes, they say, hey, he doesn't even need this money, but it's gate that he's getting it. We're so happy to be working together, whatever that means. The CEO makes a kind of unctuous statement of we're going to make intel great again, which, like, made me want to, you know, barf. And none of it really computes, like, even on its own terms. Right. Because as you said, intel is not about to go under. It's a massive company. It's been able to get the financing to put in 10 times that amount of money into its own growth. If it wants to sell 10%, a 10% stake, it doesn't need to give the U.S. government a discount on 50 million shares. It can just. It couldn't. It can get the financing through a loan. It can do it in a hundred different ways that don't involve giving the US Government a stake. So what exactly is Trump, like? What do you believe is actually causing this if it's not just this pool of money from the CHIPS Act?

James Surowiecki (77:42)

Well, I think the pool of money is important. I think intel does want it. And I think, as you said, I think that video is very, very odd because. And it's worth watching, it's only a couple minutes long because the Intel CEO says, we didn't even really want this money or need it. And then Lutnick says, yeah, they told me they didn't even want it, but they decided to basically take it in exchange for 10% of the equity, you know, because it was fair. And I'm like, wait, what if they didn't want the money or need it? Why would they give you 10% of the equity? So I think there are a couple of things. I think, you know, they wanted the money. I thought the. The money was, was. Is useful to them in, in putting more money into their businesses or whatever. Some of the money, interestingly, was, was originally from the CHIPS act, and then it recently got diverted into this somewhat odd, secretive defense program called Secure Enclave, where Intel is the exclusive provider of chips to just do this thing that we don't know what they're doing, but that money was originally from the CHIPS Act. So it's basically all CHIPS act money. So I think that was it. I also say this is entirely speculative, but I think it's probably not a coincidence that Trump went from saying the CEO was going to be fired, should be fired, to, you know, 10 days later, the CEO being like, oh, you know, we're going to work together and the like. And so I think it's. It would not be surprising that there was a connection between those things. And let me just say one other thing which is connected to what you said. The, the video kind of embodies this thing that we've seen over the last few months, which is CEOs basically kowtowing to Trump. You know, we saw Tim Cook do it. We've seen host other CEOs do it as well. There is something about it that just feels just like, creepy. And it really does feel like, you know, this is the kind of extreme version of it where it's not just that the CEO is sort of paying obeisance to Trump, it's that he's actually giving Trump 10% of the company in order to kind of keep things copacetic between them.

Jon Lovett (79:47)

Right. That it's sort of a. Well, that. That's what I'm getting at here too, which is, okay, fine, sure, of course they want the money, but this is about more than that. This is about seeing value in a good relationship with Trump for a bunch of future business reasons that, that may. That they may know about or may. May anticipate. This is also not rooted in law at all. Like, there's no right. Like, there's no. The CHIPS act did not make any claims about the investment for equity. The Congress has not passed any kind of law for how we hold stocks. We don't have a sovereign wealth on, though Trump claims to he wanted to create one. Lutnick is out there saying this is a down payment on a sovereign wealth fund. Now, I've seen. But some people try to defend this and say you're just a bunch of liberal idiots because you're gonna turn down you like the old way where we just gave companies money. We've been doing Tesla, we've been doing all kinds of things to help our industries. Why doesn't Uncle Sam get his beak wet? Why can't we get a taste of it? Can you just talk about, like, what is your reaction to that argument? Like, like, like, why are you so offended by this is just a good deal for America?

James Surowiecki (80:57)

There are a couple aspects of it. I mean, I think it's true. I assume there are people on the left in particular who are perfectly happy to see this company, kind of a big company called on the carpet by the government and having to hand over money. From my perspective, I think there are a bunch of problems with it. The first is just the obvious problem of having the government be A major player in any business, which is that it means that the government is invested in that business's well being, which then means that the government may look out for that company, it may cut its extra deals, it may make it easier for that company to find customers, it may do business with that company in a way that it would otherwise wouldn't do because it doesn't want the value of its stake to drop. Alternatively, it's also the case that the company now has to think about the government. Right. Because in theory, as you said, I have no idea, we have no idea how this thing is going to be structured or what rules are going to govern it. But in principle, it seems like, you know, Howard Lutnick could decide tomorrow he was just going to sell the stake. Right, which would crater intel stock price. So intel is going to have to like, worry about, well, how do I make the government happy? If I'm building a new chip fabricating plant, do I have to put it in a place that the president will make the president happy or will make the next president happy or whatever it is? So those things, I think are all really problematic. And then I think what follows from that is that other companies, Intel's competitors, are going to have to start thinking like, oh God, do I have to make a deal with the president now so that I don't get screwed over on tariffs? Or, you know, the government doesn't come down on us in some way or another. You know, they're basically competing to one degree or another against the government now. And, and so in that sense, I think this kind of thing feeds on itself and creates a sort of model where companies are just having to constantly pay too much attention to what the government is doing. There's one other aspect of this that I think people maybe don't really haven't really followed, and that is that taking equity actually defeats the purpose of the subsidy. Like, the point of the subsidy was that we wanted to incentivize chip production in the United States because we thought for economic and national security reasons, it was important for companies to invest here in the United States. Well, the point of the subsidy is like we're going to reap all these benefits, social and economic benefits. So we're going to in effect, subsidize, help subsidize the production. But if I'm exchanging, if I'm demanding the total value of that and actually a little bit more than that in equity, there is no subsidy. And so now companies, if we, you know, have another subsidy program, companies are going to have to say to themselves, I don't know, do I want to do this? Because if I do it, what's going to happen? Is someone going to come to me a year from now and demand 10% of my company in exchange? And so I think it makes even that kind of policy less effective than it would otherwise be.

Jon Lovett (83:46)

It gets at how the, the way Trump does business is actually not beside the point, right? Like, there are many objections to sovereign wealth funds, right? Like Norway, I believe, has one. And as a point of. It doesn't. I'm not sure if it's how, how ironclad this rule is, but it invests outside of Norway, right? Invest outside of the country to avoid the influence of politics domestically. Even if the United States created a sovereign wealth fund, which would be quite silly given that we have a massive fucking debt, right? We don't have. We're not. We don't have a surplus of oil wealth, but even if we did, there would be all kinds of questions about the benefit to taxpayers, the way it distorts the market, the influence of politics. All of those would be questions. This is being done lawlessly, which means companies have no idea when Donald Trump will come knocking, which is, I think, like you describe it as creepy. It's un American to have CEOs showing up at the White House with baubles and, and, and like, pledging their fealty and using his slogan. But it speaks to me about how dangerous this is. And I'm wondering if you're surprised at all by how, first of all, how obedient these titans of industry have been and why there isn't any more of a kind of collective response from corporate America about how obviously stupid this will be in the long run for them to go along with it.

James Surowiecki (85:13)

I think it, I think the reason. I think the fact that there has been no collective corporate response speaks to some degree to the fact that there is no easy mechanism for corporations to kind of work together. I mean, I guess, you know, there are organizations like the Business Roundtable, whatever, but I think that each company is essentially trying to, like, look out for its itself. And in doing so, the idea of a collective response just becomes kind of hard to pull off. But I think the bigger problem here is the one you kind of pointed to, which is this is the way Trump is basically running the economy, right? He's running it as essentially a tool of his own personal interests, right? Not personal, like necessarily enriching himself, but it's just, he's like, I love. He loves tariffs, so he's imposing all these tariffs. Companies are essentially going along with it until they. I'm sure they're hoping the Supreme Court will. Will overturn them. But if the Supreme Court doesn't do that, then they'll just have to find ways to work around it. And I think it is un. American is, I think, actually the right word. I mean, you know, the American economy was real. Look, the government plays a role, big role in the economy, but I think the American economy was really built on the principle that you don't want government picking winners and losers and certainly don't want to. Don't want it picking winners and losers in this dramatic a fashion. And so I think the fact that, you know, companies are going along with it is I think a lot of them just don't know what to do at this point and are trying to figure out how can I kind of manage this problem without actually kind of wrecking my business? And that's, I think, where they are at the moment.

Jon Lovett (86:50)

So as certainly members of the administration have now been out there saying, this is going to be the first of many deals, the TikTok, which is continuing to function completely outside of the law, ties into this because Trump talked about the US taking a stake in TikTok. Can you just talk about what happens next? And then a little bit also, like about Republicans, who I'm old enough to remember when Republicans thought seizing the means of production was a problem. Yeah.

James Surowiecki (87:23)

I mean, I think the overarching problem here is really this question you've kind of mentioned a few times, which is lawlessness. Right. I mean, Trump is doing all of this stuff effectively without any statutory and certainly without any constitutional justification. I mean, there's just nothing that really authorizes him to do. To do what he's doing. And that applies, I would argue, not just to, you know, taking this 10% stake in intel, but it also applies to his entire tariff policy. Right. All of which is effectively conjured, to a large extent, I think, out of, out of thin air. And I think the real player here who has been totally silent is Congress. So you have plenty of Republican, let's say, not Republicans, but sort of libertarians who have been inveighing against the tariffs and certainly are inveighing against this. The Cato Institute has been excellent on these issues all the way through, but Republicans in Congress are just happily going along with this. Both or quietly going along with it, at least both on the terror front and on this. And I think until they stand up, and I don't imagine Them standing up. It's really hard to imagine anyone other than the Supreme Court stopping Trump and Lutnick from doing this. I mean, Lutnick is just. This is just the way Ludnick, I think, is just completely. They're just indifferent to the idea of, like, yeah, they're just indifferent to it. It's like, you can't do this. Like, why? Why can't we do it? We're just going to do it. It's a great idea. And you're like, but you don't have any. You have no legal justification or tools for doing this. Doesn't matter.

Jon Lovett (88:58)

It's the. It's so, like, the amount of sway lawyers have in Democratic and previous Republican administrations, I think would shock. It would shock you if you compared it to what's happening here. Is there, like. Do intel shareholders have any claim here? Because they were entitled. The Congress passed the money. The money was entitled. Intel was going to get the money. And Trump interferes and then demands shares at a discount.

James Surowiecki (89:28)

At a discount.

Jon Lovett (89:28)

They have to have some claim to something here, right?

James Surowiecki (89:31)

Yeah. I mean, I assume intel shareholders, some intel shareholders will sue because, you know, effectively their stake was diluted by 10%. I mean, intel, again, is trying to claim that. No, no, no. The money, you know, was, Was. Was injected into the company. And it's like, no, come on, you were supposed to get this money. It was all set.

Jon Lovett (89:49)

Because intel still has lawyers. Because there's still lawyers with some sway over there at the chip place.

James Surowiecki (89:54)

Yeah. And so I assume intel shareholders will. Will sue. I think the problem is that it may well run into the, you know, business rule, business judgment rule, where the board will say, we really thought this was in the best interest of the company. And so therefore there, you know, you have to go with us and trust what we did. Now, I find that I'm very skeptical of that, but there's a lot of deference to boards of directors in corporate law.

Jon Lovett (90:22)

But how can you claim it is in the interest of intel to do this without basically saying it's a bribe? Because we did it. Because we think giving Trump this month this stock will produce ancillary benefits outside of this deal, because, as you point out, the stock is worth more than the 8 billion or 9 billion that's going to come via the Chips Act. So they have to come out there and say, giving Trump Equity will produce a benefit. Like, there's no. I don't understand. Or, you know, well, I'm not. I'm not as good as their lawyers. But. But that to me is the first assumption.

James Surowiecki (90:56)

No, I mean, I think that's true. Because even if I'm sure, you know, intel will try to argue or will argue that the CHIPS act grants. Well, in theory, there was, you know, the Commerce Department could have turned them down or rejected us, blah, blah, blah, blah. But even if you accept all that, as you said, or I guess as I said, there's a gap between the value of the equity that intel gave up and the total amount of money that they were going to get from the government. And that is basically just a gift. I mean, it's just a gift. That's all it is. And so trying to explain to courts why they gave that gift. Yeah, I'm sure it will. They will have to construct some argument about, you know, the future value of the relationship. It'll be really interesting to see if this goes to court, if they actually try to make a. An argument along those lines, because it does feel like that's basically what happened here. I mean, obviously the CEO can't say, I didn't want to get fired, so they will have to come up with some other explanation for it.

Jon Lovett (91:51)

But then that raises. Anyway, but that raises all like, his personal interest is different than that of the shareholders. He has an obligation to shareholders. That's called into question by this, too.

James Surowiecki (92:00)

Totally.

Jon Lovett (92:01)

I don't know. Anyway. Tough year for the wisdom of crowds, James.

James Surowiecki (92:04)

Well, tough year for at least the part of the crowd that voted for Trump. Yes, tough, tough, tough.

Jon Favreau (92:10)

Yeah.

Jon Lovett (92:11)

James wrote a book called the Wisdoms of Crowds. It was a hit. In case you're into. Keep up, James. Any final thoughts on this? Do you think we should get a stake in TikTok as Americans? Are you enjoying the experience of being an intel shareholder?

James Surowiecki (92:23)

No, I'm not an intel shareholder, but the one thing.

Jon Lovett (92:26)

Well, yes, you are. Presumably you're a taxpayer.

James Surowiecki (92:28)

I guess I am now. I will.

Jon Lovett (92:29)

Thank you. Yeah.

James Surowiecki (92:30)

But what I will say about that, actually, let me say one thing about that, which is part and parcel of this whole thing. To me, one of the most frustrating things about this, beyond the lawlessness and the. The indifference to reality, to any kind of sense of the rule of law, is simply the fact that they tell us nothing. So, like a good example of it, this is one version of it. Right. We don't know how it's going to be structured. We don't know whether there'll be any rules on what we can do with the.

Jon Favreau (92:55)

This.

James Surowiecki (92:56)

What Lutnick can do with the stake. But go back to Lutnick's story about the $600 billion or whatever it was that Japan and South Korea were supposed to put in are going to put into the United States as part of these trade deals. We have seen nothing. There's literally no paperwork. We have no idea what it is. Lutnick said that the President was going to be able to invest that money at his discretion. Again, totally unconstitutional. No statutory justification for it. But set all that aside. We don't know what it looks like. It's just something that these guys are telling us and we're supposed to just go along and be like, okay, I guess that's the way things are. I mean, it really is extraordinary to me how indifferent to the law they are.

Jon Lovett (93:38)

And, and by the way, that is the experience of trying to understand what's going on in some of these arrangements that also had to do with that softbank announcement. All these different announcements. You, you, you come into it and you say, have I just missed the brief? Did I miss the memoir? Have I missed the documentation? Or is there really just nothing?

James Surowiecki (93:55)

Yeah, and it feels like there's nothing. I mean, you know, I mean, Lutnick was on TV the other day and he said he was talking about, I think I can remember what agreements. He was like, well, it's not like you're going to get a 250 page trade agreement or anything. I was like, why not? Why not going to see what it looks like?

Jon Lovett (94:09)

Well, and again, like, we, and, and given that they are doing this outside of Congress, presumably they would have some sort of sense of propriety to say yes, because this is outside of Congress. We're going to actually create a process to help you understand what's going on, because there is no law about what happens when treasury seizes stock from Intel. Where does it go? Where do we hold? Where is it going to go? Are we opening a Vanguard?

James Surowiecki (94:33)

Yeah. Who's managing it? Like, I mean, literally, can Howard Lutnick wake up, you know, a month from now and be like, you know what? This is terrible. I'm just going to sell it. I mean, could he do that? I have no idea. And it is quite extraordinary that they, they just don't care. I mean, you know, it's that sort of recurring motto about, about Trump is like, nobody cares. And it just feels like, I don't know, everyone's like, all right, I guess that's just how it is. Everybody except us, but we care.

Jon Lovett (94:55)

And other people listening care.

James Surowiecki (94:57)

Yeah.

Jon Lovett (94:57)

And that's a good, that's where we'll have to start.

James Surowiecki (95:00)

We have to start.

Jon Lovett (95:01)

James Surwicki, thank you so much for your time. Good talking to you.

James Surowiecki (95:04)

Thanks for having me on. I appreciate it.

Jon Favreau (95:10)

That's our show for today. Dan and I will be back with a new show on Friday. Talk to everybody then.

Jon Lovett (95:14)

You guys are going to burn the flag, right?

Tommy Vietor (95:16)

Did you guys see that? The White House tweeted a Kilmar Abrego garcia photo. That is the Shepherd Ferry with MS.13 with the Obama logo on it.

Jon Favreau (95:25)

Oh I knew. I thought they had done that way back when it was the first story. But yeah, they're why they leave the.

Jon Lovett (95:30)

Logo on to send a message to us.

Jon Favreau (95:33)

Anyhow, message received.

Tommy Vietor (95:35)

Thank you.

Jon Favreau (95:37)

If you want to listen to Pod Save America ad free and get access to exclusive podcasts, go to cricket.com friends to subscribe on Supercast, Substack, YouTube or Apple Podcasts. Also, please consider leaving us a review that helps boost this episode and everything we do here at Crooked Pod Save America is a crooked media production. Our producers are David Toledo, Emma Ilick Frank and Saul Rubin. Our associate producer is Farah Safari. Austin Fisher is our senior producer. Reed Churlin is our Executive editor. Adrienne Hill is our head of news and politics. The show is mixed and edited by Andrew Chadwick. Jordan Kanter is our sound engineer, with audio support from Kyle Seglin and Charlotte Landis. Matt de Groat is our Head of production. Naomi Sengel is our executive assistant. Thanks to our digital team, Elijah Cohn, Haley Jones, Ben Hefcoat, Mia Kelman, Kiril Pelaviev, David Toles, and Ryan Young. Our production staff is proudly unionized with the Writers Guild of America. Easy.

Andy Richter (96:38)

Hi there, it's Andy Richter, and I'm here to tell you about my podcast, the three Questions with Andy Richter. Each week I invite friends, comedians, actors and musicians to discuss these three questions. Where do you come from, where are you going, and what have you learned? New episodes are out every Tuesday with guests like Julie Bowen, Ted Danson, Tig Notaro, Will Arnett, Phoebe Bridgers, and more. You can also tune in for my weekly Andy Richter Call in show episodes where me and a special guest invite callers to weigh in on topics like dating, disasters, bad teachers, and lots more. Listen to the three Questions with Andy Richter. Wherever you get your podcasts.

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