Hasan Piker Has Thoughts on the Hasan Piker Discourse

Summary

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Pod Save America: Hasan Piker Has Thoughts on the Hasan Piker Discourse

Date: April 12, 2026
Host: Jon Favreau (with Tommy Vietor & brief input from Jon Lovett)
Guest: Hasan Piker

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Episode Overview

In this episode, Jon Favreau sits down with commentator and streamer Hasan Piker to address the firestorm of commentary surrounding Hasan’s involvement in Democratic politics, his controversial statements, and the broader debates about political organizing on the left. The discussion covers Hasan's recent surge in activism with progressive candidates, his theories of political change, his views on Israel and Hamas, his approach to political communication, and his role in upcoming election cycles.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. The “Hasan Piker Discourse” and Electoral Politics

[04:09–08:58]

• Why Hasan’s A Lightning Rod: Favreau introduces Piker as one of the “most argued about figures in Democratic politics” in recent weeks, referencing a Wall Street Journal op-ed (from Third Way, a centrist think tank) labeling Hasan as “anti-American, anti-woman, anti-Western, and anti-Semitic.”
• Entry into Electoral Campaigning:
  • Piker underscores how his involvement with candidates (like Abdul Al-Sayed in Michigan) was less about a deliberate shift and more about working with people he trusts and aligns with.
  • “I’ve been very involved in Democratic politics…with AOC, Bernie Sanders, Rashida Tlaib, Ilhan Omar…But I’ve never actively stumped for a candidate” (05:59).
  • He notes that while some on the far left critique him for working within “bourgeois elections,” he believes “politics is in some ways the art of the possible.”
• Hasan’s Goal: Move people aligned with his values into positions of power, aiming for “improving the material conditions of the working class in this country” (08:10).

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2. Political Theory & Instilling Class Consciousness

[08:58–12:07]

• Theory of Change:
  • Hasan claims the U.S. is marked by a lack of “class consciousness.”
  • He explains most Americans fail to see the real source of their problems as “billionaires and corporations who control the levers of power,” and not marginalized groups scapegoated by the GOP.
• Unlocking Minds:
  • “It’s not a trans person or a Guatemalan migrant that’s raising your rent. It’s your landlord…That’s greedflation and corporate consolidation” (09:17).
  • He details how these direct conversations—both with his audience and with figures like Theo Von—often spark a realization.

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3. Growing Influence and Challenges of Live Political Commentary

[12:07–16:17]

• Scale & Peril of Being Clipped Out of Context:
  • Hasan hosts tens of thousands of hours of live-streamed political commentary (“off the cuff”) and acknowledges he’s said “some stupid and offensive things,” made worse by clips lacking context.
• Responsibility & the New Media Environment:
  • Despite being aware of repercussions for candidates he supports, Piker asserts:
    • “As an independent content creator…most people don’t care about [out-of-context swearing or vulgarity]. Most people care about who you are and what you represent” (14:31).
    • He considers today’s media ecosystem less sensitive to coarse language due to Trump’s normalization of norm-breaking discourse—“He campaigned on saying Haitians are eating cats and dogs.”
• Resilience to Smear Campaigns:
  • “My audience knows what I stand for. They’re listening to me for eight hours a day.”

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4. Addressing Controversial Statements—In His Own Words

[17:20–21:12]

a) “America Deserved 9/11”

[17:28–20:09]

• Context & Regret:
  • Piker explains the comment was a clumsy, satirical response on the Joe Rogan Experience in opposition to “they hate us because they ain’t us” arguments.
  • He points to historical U.S. intervention in the Middle East as a root cause and reiterates being anti-civilian death:
    • “Civilians don’t deserve to die…I’m anti-civilian murder, I’m anti-civilian death” (20:09, Piker).

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b) “Hamas is a Thousand Times Better Than Israel”

[23:47–36:33]

• Taking Ownership:
  • Piker says he stands by the statement, declaring it both literal, rhetorical, and as a “harm reduction voter” sentiment.
  • Explains his view: Hamas’ worst actions must be seen in light of “the far larger, far broader systematic violence that an entire people have been subjected to” by Israel (24:43).
• Resistance & Tactics:
  • Acknowledges that October 7 was “catastrophic” for Palestinians, but suggests that non-violent resistance has historically failed due to the adversary’s lack of conscience.
  • “I have a policy of saying the truth unconditionally and standing by my principles, even if that’s sometimes hard to hear” (33:15).
  • Favreau emphasizes the need for universal principles—civilian violence is always wrong, regardless of the perpetrator (36:31).

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5. Student Protest Movements and Media Narratives

[37:09–40:36]

• On College Campuses & BLM Parallels:
  • Piker decries media fixation on “cringe” or extreme statements at protests, arguing focus should be on movement values and broader context.
  • Praises the discipline and organization of Palestine encampments (UCLA cited), expressing frustration at media “both sidesing” or siding with pro-Israel factions.

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6. Zionism, Anti-Zionism, and Accusations of Antisemitism

[43:11–54:27]

• Defining Anti-Zionism:
  • “I think Zionism is a fascist ideology…it’s an ethno-religious supremacist ideology that is exterminationist. And it’s in many respects no different than what we see in MAGA—Christian nationalism. That is a fascist ideology” (43:37, Piker).
• Notable Quotes:
  • “My assessment on Zionism…is not that different from Albert Einstein’s assessment of Zionism…” (44:20).
  • Cites Einstein’s warnings about Zionist militias and the historical trajectory of Israel’s founding violence.
• Navigating Antisemitism:
  • “It blows my mind that groups like [the ADL] spend most of their time trying to deplatform me” (54:27).
• The Conflation Problem:
  • Critiques pro-Israel groups for erasing the distinction between Judaism and Israeli policy, warning this conflation breeds antisemitism:
    • “We are teaching [Americans] that every Jewish person demonstrates dual loyalty, which is false…We’re also teaching people that everything that Israel does, it does for Jews” (50:50).

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7. The Left Flank, Electoral Power, and Demands on the Democratic Party

[62:20–68:31]

• Role as a Megaphone:
  • “I see myself as a megaphone for the people…a lot of politicians have recognized that…They want to be able to reach young men especially that we've lost” (62:33, Piker).
• Demands of the Democratic Party:
  • Outlines his expectation that Democrats should court him “like a Never Trumper”; wants Democrats to stop taking left wing votes for granted (65:23).
  • Expresses frustration at Democrats’ “conciliatory" approach to growing fascist forces rather than fighting them aggressively with clear pro-working class, pro-left policies.
• Populism and Shifting Coalitions:
  • “There is this broad left flank, left populism, Berniecrat attitude that I’m seeing from a lot of candidates. And I think the centrist forces are very afraid of the movement that is building, the movement that is brewing on that side” (68:03).

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Memorable Quotes & Moments

• Hasan on confronting narratives:
  • “Yeah, to be fair, I am. I am an asshole…But I’m an asshole in different ways than they are being portrayed. I bully bullies. I’m an asshole to reactionaries across the board. I’m an asshole to Nazis.” (16:41–16:48)
• On “America Deserved 9/11”:
  • “Civilians do not deserve to die. I mean, I’m anti-civilian murder, I’m anti-civilian death…That’s like, one of my first principles…” (20:09, Piker)
• On Messaging Amidst Smear Campaigns:
  • “I have a policy of saying the truth unconditionally and standing by my principles, even if that's sometimes hard to hear. And that's precisely what I did after October 7, on October 8, when I went live and talked about the systematic forces that have led to October 7th.” (33:15)
• On Israel & Zionism:
  • “I think Zionism is a fascist ideology. It’s an ethno-religious supremacist ideology that is exterminationist. And it’s in many respects no different than what we see in MAGA.” (43:37)
• On Coalition-Building:
  • “If I believe that I would be a burden to campaigns, I wouldn’t go out and campaign with people that I like…You poll [voters in conservative states] on things like, what do you think about the DSA? What do you think about Israel? And it’s like, they’re a lot closer to me than they are to an establishment Democrat.” (68:41)

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Key Timestamps for Important Segments

| Time | Topic | |-------------|------------------------------------------------------------------| | 04:09–05:59 | Favreau recaps the Hasan controversy & Wall Street Journal op-ed | | 05:59–08:58 | Piker on joining Abdul’s campaign and engaging in electoral politics | | 08:58–12:07 | Discussion of class consciousness and political education | | 12:07–16:17 | Streaming, responsibility for words, smear campaigns | | 17:28–20:09 | The “America Deserved 9/11” controversy | | 23:47–36:33 | “Hamas is a Thousand Times Better” and violence in resistance | | 37:09–40:36 | Student protests & movement discipline; protest criticism | | 43:11–54:27 | Zionism, antisemitism, and building pro-Palestine coalitions | | 62:20–68:03 | Role in Democratic politics, demands on the party, left-populism |

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Tone & Takeaways

The conversation is lively, passionate, and sometimes confrontational—reflecting both Favreau’s intent to clarify misunderstanding and Piker’s commitment to speaking “hard truths” even when unpopular. While some listeners may find Piker’s rhetoric challenging, the discussion provides a nuanced look at how the younger, left-wing activist base is pushing and shaping Democratic politics, the challenges of mass media representation, and the ongoing debate over the boundaries of solidarity, harm reduction, and “truth-telling” in contentious times.

Favreau’s approach is direct but judicious, often pushing for clarity and nuance in areas where Piker’s rhetoric might repel broader coalitions, all while maintaining mutual respect.

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Summary prepared for listeners seeking a detailed understanding of the “Hasan Piker Discourse” and what’s at stake for the left in contemporary Democratic politics.

Transcript

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[Jon Favreau]

Welcome to Pod Save America. I'm Jon Favreau. This Sunday, Hassan Piker someone I'm sure no one has a strong opinion about Hasan stopped by the studio to talk about his move into electoral politics. He recently hit the campaign trail to stump for Abdul Al Sayed in Michigan and to talk about, well, everything you've seen in the news about him lately. We ended up talking about the many statements he's made that have sparked a discussion inside the Democratic Party about whether candidates should associate themselves with him and his audience. We also debated his views on Israel and Hamas, how he thinks about the words he chooses, and his theory of political organizing. It's a conversation you need to hear for yourself, so we will get right into it. But before we do, please consider becoming a Crooked Media subscriber if you haven't already. So that you don't miss out on any of the great content we're putting out for our Friends of the Pod subscribers. Get our new extra episode of Pod Save America called Pod Save America. Only Friends, Other subscriber only shows like Polar Coaster with Dan Pfeiffer, access to all of our excellent substack newsletters like Pod Save America, open tabs, access to ad free episodes of all your favorite Crooked Pods, and you get to feel good about supporting one of the few independent, proudly pro democracy media outlets left in Trump's America. So head to crooked.com friends and subscribe. All right, here's Hasan Piker. Hasan, welcome back to the show.

[Hasan Piker]

It's good to be back.

[Jon Favreau]

You've somehow become the most argued about figure in Democratic politics over the last few weeks. So I'd like to have a conversation about why that is. That is hopefully more nuanced and useful than much of the discourse.

[Hasan Piker]

Yeah, I mean it goes to show how serious we are as a movement, as an opposition party. That that's. This is the primary focus. Central.

[Jon Favreau]

Central to the discourse.

[Hasan Piker]

Yeah.

[Jon Favreau]

Just a quick recap to set the table for people who, lucky for them, maybe haven't been following along. A few weeks ago, Third way centrist Democratic think tank published a Wall Street Journal op ed calling on Democrats to stop engaging with you. They describe you as anti American, anti woman, anti Western and anti Semitic. Their ev list of things you've said which we'll get into. They also specifically singled out a few Democrats us for inviting you to Crooked Con last year. Ro Khanna and Michigan Senate candidate Abdul El Sayed, also a former crooked host who a few of us have donated to and who you campaigned with this week, which fueled even more controversy. Now you and I scheduled this conversation weeks ago. I'm sure some people have had enough Hasan piker discourse, but I do think it's an important conversation to have because like, you know, even though you and I have different politics, we've actually debated our disagreements on this show. I think there's value in doing that in person in a format that's not mediated by algorithms or a fucking five minute cable hit. So with all that said, here's where I want to start. I think the rallies with Abdul this week were the first time you've been a featured speaker at a candidate's actual campaign event. And I wonder how you self proclaimed Marxist, anti imperialist decided to be a campaign surrogate for a Democratic candidate, even one as progressive as Abdul. What was your thinking there? And like, what has made you get more involved in Democratic politics?

[Hasan Piker]

So I've been very involved in Democratic politics for years at this point, but with aoc, Bernie Sanders and Rashida Tlaib, Ilhan Omar, who I'll be interviewing later today, but I've never actively, I guess, stumped for a candidate and I never, I didn't even realize. Maybe I'm too like, I'm not old school enough to understand this. But for me, the difference between Abdul coming on my stream, which I've done many times prior to this, and me like going to Dearborn and us working out together and eating kebabs is, is probably more significant than me going on a rally and, and like talking for five minutes in front of a live audience. So I never thought of that as like this major new step. I guess it is because the DC bubble was like freaking out about it where they're like, how dare you do this? This is the most devastating thing anyone's ever done. And, and I like the guy. That's the reason why I did this. Like I trust him. I think he has a lot of great policy opinions. I think he is much more responsive to the needs of the base and than some of the other Democrats that I've been very upset with for many, many years. And I think he's exactly the type of guy that the party needs to have more of. My goal has been very clear since Zoron, when, when we linked up during the primary, it was a very crowded field and. And he was able to, like, cut through that noise and become a beloved mayor of New York. Now I want to get people into positions of power that I align with politically, even if we don't 100% agree. I even have disagreements with Zoron from time to time. I'll text them some stuff. I'll be like, yo, cut this out. What are you doing? But at the end of the day, I understand that politics is in some ways the art of the possible. Right. And I see that my expectation is never going to be someone coming out and advocating to seize the means of production. I'm reformist many to my left, which does exist. For those of you out there, there are people who are further to the left than me who will say, elections, bourgeois elections are unnecessary. And all you're doing is taking away revolutionary potential and feeding it back into the Democratic Party. You're a shepherd for the, the Democrats and, and therefore a reactionary, a social fascist even. But all of that stuff is going to break the brains of your audience. I'm not even. I shouldn't even be getting into that. Yeah, I think if someone wants to improve the material conditions of the working class in this country, if someone says no to unnecessary, like, endless wars and advocates to bring our productive output back home to work on ourselves in some ways, not a dissimilar message to the lie that MAGA told about isolationism and no new wars and being the peace president, if someone actually identifies with that and wants to advance that agenda, I'm gonna be there for them just to

[Jon Favreau]

broaden it out, because I do think it's useful for people who don't know and are now wondering, like, what's he up to? What does he want? Like, what is your theory of political change? Like, how do we get from where we are now? What is the mechanism to get from where we are now to the world that you want to live in?

[Hasan Piker]

Oh, great question. So I am a firm believer that one of the biggest issues in the United States of America, which is the heart of empire, one of the most capitalist countries, is a proto capitalist country before capitalism and industrial revolution even happened, is the idea that most people do not have class consciousness. Most Americans don't understand that they're a working class and that there are people who generate most of their revenue, most of their net worth, off of capital accumulation. But the overwhelming majority of Americans, and the 99%, as Bernie likes to call it, they don't do that. They get a regular wage. They're not business owners. Or even if they're business owners, they oftentimes operate their own business. So, like, the overwhelming amount of money that they're making that they're putting in their pocket is coming from their own labor. And they don't identify with that at all. They are hopped up on American exceptionalism, American individualism. So my goal is to instill class consciousness in people and help them identify what would be more like help them identify who is actually causing harm to them. And in my assessment, it's the billionaires and the corporations who actually control the levers of power in this country, and not the vulnerable populations, the marginalized communities that the Republicans very effectively take people's frustrations and redirect them towards. Right? It's not a trans person or a Guatemalan migrant. That's like raising your rent. It's your landlord. It's not a trans person or a Mexican undocumented immigrant that's working in a field that is responsible for why your. Your grocery prices are going up. That's, you know, that's. That's greedflation and corporate consolidation. That's at the heart of that issue.

[Jon Favreau]

And when you think about your own show and your own audience, like, what do you think actually changes people's minds? Like, what has worked for you?

[Hasan Piker]

I mean, talking to them and explaining to them exactly what I'm explaining right now, which is that, I mean, I had this conversation with Theo Vaughan where I felt like, you know, a light switch came on in his mind when we were having this back and forth, when I said exactly this thing about, you know, it's not a trans person, that's, like, hurting you at all. But the. Isn't it weird that the Republicans are constantly angling it in that direction and never really talking about big corporations and, you know, big pharma and all of these capital owners, all these very powerful people that basically run the show in an almost bipartisan manner? And when I have that conversation with a lot of regular Americans, ordinary Americans that haven't put a lot of thought into it, they go, wait a minute, that does kind of make sense. I feel like that's. Not only do I think that that's true, but I Also feel like it's a very effective way to try to unlock people's class consciousness.

[Jon Favreau]

Yeah. And sort of build coalitions of people who are different. You have over 3 million followers on Twitch, 1.75 million on YouTube. I saw that you've done something like 20,000 hours of live streaming. That is all off the cuff political takes and responding to viewers in real time, which I imagine must be like constantly fighting with people in your mentions. Real time.

[Hasan Piker]

Yes. No, exactly.

[Jon Favreau]

You mean. So I am not surprised that you've said some stupid and offensive things. I'm even less surprised that you've said stuff that sounds even worse when it's clipped out of context. Here's what I'm wondering. As you've grown your audience and influence and as you've gotten more directly involved in electoral politics, do you feel a responsibility to choose your words more carefully or at least in ways that are less likely to be misconstrued?

[Hasan Piker]

Yes and no. So, yes, because obviously I don't wanna cause any harm to any of the candidates that I'm associating with or this movement that I am obviously a part of, what I like to call the left flank candidates or the Berniecrats, people who are more responsive to the needs of the working class folks all around the country. I don't want to ever be a burden to them because being associated with them is not beneficial. For me, the way that DC Media perceives the situation is like, oh, my God, he went out to stump for Abdul. All of a sudden he's like a legitimate political force. I'm like, I've been doing that already. Like, I was infinitely more effective sitting at home and just talking shit.

[Jon Favreau]

Right.

[Hasan Piker]

Than I am sitting in front of a live audience with like 600 people. Although that's still good and I enjoy it personally. But like, and I do that for candidates that I trust, candidates that I want to endorse and fight for. But I'm already fundraising for a lot of these folks. Right. Small dollar donations from all around the country keep flooding into all the campaigns that I work with. But yeah, I am cognizant of that. On the other hand, one thing that I'm thinking about is, well, this medium lends itself so perfectly to being clipped out of context. And I think we are now in a media environment where that doesn't matter as much. I mean, Donald Trump's the president, right. Like, he is the president. It's not just his words that are messed up.

[Tommy Vietor]

That.

[Hasan Piker]

That galvanized some of the most reactionary forces in this country and normalized some of the most heinous, most toxic, repulsive types of politics. I mean, he ran on. He campaigned on saying Haitians are eating cats and dogs. Like, that's unbelievable. That's white supremacy through and through. And he won. So on the one hand, I think that we are now existing in a very different media environment than the one that like, Ms. Now, New York Times and CNN want to exist in. I think that that kind of stuff is over. Like, you're a vulgar person. As an independent content creator. I think most people don't care about that. Most people care about, like, who you are and what your values are and what you represent. And I've been able to withstand these kinds of smear campaigns on even the independent side far before I ever drew the ire of RNC research department. So. And as a matter of fact, they're using a lot of the same clips that I've had to deal with that are circulating on the Internet anyway. So it's not. It doesn't bother me that much. It doesn't do anything to my audience. My audience knows what I stand for. They're listening to me for eight hours a day. They know exactly what my values are. I'm sure it might stop some people or maybe cause them to second guess whether or not they want to be charitable to what I have to say. And that's a problem. But at the end of the day, most people that see that stuff go, wait a minute. I have the capacity to. I have free will. I can. I have the capacity to think critically. What's going on here? Why is the Republican Party saying this? Claiming that this guy is racist or claiming that this guy is a misogynist, when I know what the Republican Party stands for. Let me go check him out. And I think a lot of people do that, and then they check me out and then they realize, oh, they were just lying. Like, it's that simple.

[Jon Favreau]

And I have experienced this myself and have thought about it over the last couple weeks. Cause I'm like, if I had not. If I did not know you, if I hadn't interviewed you before, if I hadn't, like, been familiarized myself with your content, which I came to probably later than most, and I just read the coverage of the last couple weeks, I would be like, oh, yeah, he's a fucking asshole.

[Hasan Piker]

Yeah, to be fair, I am. I am an asshole.

[Jon Favreau]

Yeah, but you're an asshole, I think, in different ways than you are being portrayed.

[Hasan Piker]

Yeah, I'm an asshole to bull. I bully bullies I'm an asshole to reactionaries across the board. I'm an asshole to Nazis. It doesn't matter to me if you're right wing, if you're a Nazi, if you're a reactionary, I'm not gonna be nice to you. And I don't think we should be nice to them. They're not nice to us. They're not nice to random, uninitiated people. They're not nice to entire swaths of the population. So, yeah, if that's your ideology, if that's your worldview, I find that to be very damaging. I find that to be very toxic. I find that to be violent and dangerous. I'm going to fight back. I'm going to use some mean words every now and then.

[Jon Favreau]

Yeah, well, and it's less than mean words, right? Because, like, at least for me, because I was looking through the hit list, which I want to get into here.

[Hasan Piker]

All right?

[Jon Favreau]

Or at least some of them, because there's some where I'm like, that was clearly taken out of context. Whatever. There's some where I think, like, the underlying point is still worth debating or talking about. So the one I've seen just about everywhere is, I think this is the most common one is your comment that America deserved 9 11.

[Hasan Piker]

Yeah.

[Jon Favreau]

Which you watched back in 2019 by calling it inappropriate, a poor attempt at satire, and said that you meant America, the government, not Americans as people. But do you still think that America as a country deserved 9 11? Because saying America or any country deserved to be attacked, to me is different than saying, you understand why they were attacked and what actions might have contributed to that attack. Like, I get the blowback argument, but that is different than deserved is like a more of a normative kind of.

[Hasan Piker]

Yeah, that was me responding to Daniel Crenshaw, ironically enough, on the Joe Rogan Experience, where he was making. Making this ridiculous argument that, like, you know, we have to go out and fight these people all the time because they hate us, because they ain't us. And I was like, that's insane. That's not the reason. Like. And this was actually echoed by Robert Kagan, one of the godfathers of neoconservatism, just last week where he came out and was like, yeah, actually, we have been messing around in the Middle east for, you know, upwards of 60 years. And that's precisely the reason why 911 happened. And that's precisely the reason why these guys say death to America and Iran, for example. So, like, that was exactly the same sentiment that I've addressed A million times over. But of course, in this moment, it was a heated response, an impassioned response, and people will consistently use that against me over and over again. Some people hear that and they think, I understand exactly what's going on here. Some people hear that and go, how heinous. Oh, my stars and garters. I am clutching my pearls. I don't even wanna learn what this is about. I don't wanna understand what he's saying. His name is Hasan. He must be Al Qaeda. I mean, and that's fine.

[Jon Favreau]

You also can, like, bring it to the present because, like, I have a very real fear right now that because of what Donald Trump has done in Iran, he has increased the risk of terror attacks on Americans abroad and maybe even here. And God forbid one of those happens, we will know that it could be a result of. Or at least Donald Trump will have contributed to that 100%.

[Hasan Piker]

Be a direct byproduct of everything that we've done. It's impossible not to recognize it at this point. Yeah.

[Jon Favreau]

And it's very easy at that point for me to say, oh, now we know what led to that versus. Yeah, you know what? We deserved it. Like, I wouldn't say that.

[Hasan Piker]

Yeah.

[Jon Favreau]

But I would say, like, I understand.

[Hasan Piker]

Civilians don't. Civilians don't deserve to die. I mean, I'm anti civilian murder. I'm anti civilian death.

[Jon Favreau]

Don't put that down.

[Hasan Piker]

That's like, one of my. One of my first principles is that I'm anti imperialist. I'm anti war for that reason. Because I don't want civilians to die. I don't want random people to die. I don't even want people to go out and die in the process of trying to kill people.

[Jon Favreau]

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I'm a huge fan of Willy's. It just. It's very light.

[Hasan Piker]

I get the.

[Tommy Vietor]

They have two versions, or at least two versions of it. One, you can get like a. There's 10 milligrams per shot or 5 milligrams per shot. I get the 5 milligrams per shot because I like to have just a little bit and a bit of a lightweight. You just have a little bit. And it's just. It's my favorite kind of edible I've ever had. It's just, like, really nice. Like, you know, on a Friday, you just take a little, you know, Chill out. It's really great.

[Jon Favreau]

Yeah. You know what, if you're not going out, maybe you grab the tent.

[Tommy Vietor]

Yeah, why not? Why not? We actually are going to have a cocktail, I think with Willy's at the wedding.

[Jon Favreau]

Ooh, interesting. Interesting. Wow. And you're not going to tell the guests?

[Tommy Vietor]

No, no. Well, just a big glass for my father and then everybody else can get what's left.

[Jon Favreau]

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[Jon Favreau]

I do. I want to stay in the theme of violence just for a minute because I think it connects to another comment of yours that's been circulating. This is one from January. Hamas is a thousand times better than the fascist settler colonial apartheid state.

[Hasan Piker]

I stand by that well.

[Jon Favreau]

So I will say this is the one that bothered me most when I first heard it. And I remember, I remember having a reaction to it when I first saw it in January. Because I think even if you believe what happened in Gaza is genocide and what's happening in the west bank is apartheid, those are different claims from Hamas is a thousand times better because like Hamas is an organization that has massacred, raped, kidnapped civilians on October 7th. They've also been catastrophic for Palestinians by almost every measure. Governance corruption. They made choices they knew would result in mass civilian death of their own people. So my question is, when you say Hamas is a thousand times better, do you actually mean that or is that a rhetorical move or like a solidarity signal? Like what I mean?

[Hasan Piker]

It's all of the above. I do mean it. I think it's a rhetorical move because it frustrates a lot of people. I've also said I'm a harm reduction voter. I'm a lesser evil voter and therefore I would vote for Hamas over Israel every single time. Because I'm looking at the situation as, as, as a paramilitary organization that has, like a political party as well, a politburo as well, that is entirely comprised not as an alien force, but of the orphaned children that have, you know, had their parents killed by an apartheid state that has been dominating the lives of Palestinians for 80 years at this point. And they've done a genocide at this point as well. But like, it started off with the Nakba and has only evolved as technology has gotten better to become more heinous. And Gaza is this hermetically sealed area that many people correctly point to as the world's largest open air prison before October 7th. So my perspective on this has always been that I think that Hamas's tactics, which I oppose at times. Right. Or it's like internal governance issues are secondary to this conversation because they're. It's like placing a lot of emphasis on the Nat Turner Rebellion or instead of talking about the much larger, much more consequential, much bigger harm that, you know, chattel slavery was to black people to, like, sell black people and to rape them and treat them as though they weren't human. I think that's a far larger systemic force that is going to be. Is going to make the Nazarene Rebellion look inconsequential in comparison to the greater harm. Same with, for example, the anc. The ANC had a militant wing called the mk. I'm not going to try to even attempt to say it. And, you know, Nelson Mandela went to prison and was. Was imprisoned by the apartheid state, and MK and the ANC did a lot of stuff to collaborators. The collaborators that have worked alongside the apartheid administration, they would. They had a practice called necklacing, where they would put a tire around the necks of collaborators and light it on fire. It was heinous practice, and it was, of course, condemned after the fact. But none of the people that were engaged in it, if I recall correctly, even in the Truth and Reconciliation Committee, were actually legally charged for it. Because there's this understanding when we look back at, like, some of the more heinous things that resistance groups have done and militancies have done, we match that up against the far larger, far broader systematic violence that an entire people have been subjected to. And it makes me feel silly to consistently, you know, talk about what Hamas has done, especially when there has been an October 7th times a thousand, if not more than a thousand at this point in the hands of Israel against the Palestinian population in its entirety. I mean, they're doing an October 7th to Lebanon right now as we speak.

[Jon Favreau]

Just take it from the Palestinian perspective.

[Hasan Piker]

Yeah.

[Jon Favreau]

Don't you think Hamas's decision to attack on October 7 and to massacre civilians on October 7 was a catastrophic mistake for them, for the Palestinian people? Like, do you think the Palestinian people are in any way better off than they were before October 7th?

[Hasan Piker]

No, of course not. But at the end of the day,

[Jon Favreau]

that's why I'm asking. It's more for me, like a. Resistance movements, wherever they are, need to come up with strategies. Right. And I think. I guess my view is. And I understand that there is a huge power imbalance here, but I think that resistance movements that engage in, you know, mass slaughter or civilian targeting and all that. Like they just have less success than resistance movements that are nonviolent. I mean, obviously in history, I know we've had a revolution here. I get it.

[Hasan Piker]

I wouldn't agree with that.

[Jon Favreau]

I get armed revolution.

[Hasan Piker]

Yeah.

[Jon Favreau]

But I do think if you look back over the last hundred years, nonviolent movements have been more successful than armed resistance movements. That's just, I think they were handy,

[Hasan Piker]

but I think it was, it might have been Kwame Torre who said it. You know, you can only shame someone who has a conscience and if your enemy has none, it's impossible to get them to react to your civil movement. Because the Palestinians have tried civil movements. I mean, the Great March of Return where hundreds of Palestinians were sniped directly by the Israeli occupation forces and they openly celebrated that too. They said, we have an accounting of every single bullet that we shot at the Palestinians. And then they had to delete that. I mean, this is just the tip of the iceberg as far as the war crimes galore that we're talking about. Because even the everyday maintenance of apartheid, which is real, is, is an incredibly violent endeavor. That maintenance requires you to constantly be a military force that is ever present, that is dominating and ritualistically humiliating and subjugating millions of people. So my perspective is always looking at this from the, from, from the perspective of the people that are being dominated. Rather than placing a lot of the emphasis on structural violence or rather on state backed violence which we have a predisposition to lean into. No matter what someone fights back against a cop, the automatic suspicion is, well, the police are actually, you know, maintaining law and order, so it must be a criminal. Right. That might not always be the case. So I like to look at this stuff with a more open minded framework where I can try to figure out exactly what led to a day like October 7th that was unbelievably violent. Right. And I think it's, it's pretty clear that 75 years at that point of ethnic cleansing and apartheid and, and you know, subjugation was, was a big part of the driving force. And as far as Hamas goes, we oftentimes talk about just Hamas. It's almost like a catch all term. Hamas is only one component of the Palestinian resistance. The Al Aqsa flood was actually conducted not only by Hamas, but Palestinian Islamic Jihad's own militant forces, pflp, DFLP and numerous other, even including Fatah militias as well that still existed in, in Gaza. So this was, this was a military operation initially that was, was conducted by virtually every single active organization inside of Gaza. So it's not. That's why I always say, like, Hamas is not an alien entity in the way that we think about them. Or we say, oh, they are there. Are these, like, evil oppressors of the Palestinian people. Are there disagreements within the Palestinian coalition against Hamas's governance? Absolutely no. People are a monolith. But the only thing that every single Palestinian, with the exception of those who work for, like the Atlantic Council or whatever, that are there to just, you know, do regime propaganda, do Israel propaganda, with the exception of those people, every Palestinian I've ever talked to, Christian Palestinians, who might even have major disagreements with Hamas, who might even be critical of Hamas, will always say, the number one thing that we want is the end to the occupation, is the end to the apartheid. The number one thing we want is dignity and sovereignty. And that is what Hamas has been trying to achieve militarily.

[Jon Favreau]

The message that you just said that Palestinians wanted, end to the occupation. Dignity, self determination. Yeah, for people who are not as familiar with the issue as you, but that you want to reach and that you want to. Because I assume the purpose here is to build a movement that supports Palestinian self determination. And if I was someone who didn't know a lot about it, and I knew that Hamas committed October 7th, and then I heard a message that Hamas is better than Israel, I would be less receptive to the person delivering that message than I would someone saying, look, what Israel has done. And what the Palestinian people really want, aside from this organization that is serving them poorly, is most Palestinians just want dignity. And they want an end to the impression. Like, I would feel like, okay, I could get behind that, and I'm gonna be more attracted to that message.

[Hasan Piker]

I have a policy of saying the truth unconditionally and standing by my principles, even if that's sometimes hard to hear. And that's precisely what I did after October 7, on October 8, when I went live and talked about the systematic forces that have led to October 7th. And a lot of people were not receptive to that message at all. And some of which actually became haters of mine and left the community where I. I lost a third of my entire community for like, the first year of Israel's maximum violence, Israel's genocide, where people simply did not want to hear that message at all. But I know, and I knew back then, that as long as I say the truth, that one, history will vindicate me, and two, as long as I say the truth, there will always be people who are more charitable and more receptive to that regardless, because I see no reason in sheltering people from that perspective. Do I obviously manage in a much longer format, in a much longer conversation like the one that we're having? Yes, I am obviously more capable of explaining that position. But I think saying what I said there, that Hamas, a thousand lives better than Israel, cuts across that narrative in a way that I think even liberals have to think about, because someone who is immediately reactive to that kind of sentiment, that goes, wait a minute, but liberal. But Israel is a liberal democracy. It's the only democracy in the region. Why is he saying that? They understand at least one part of it where they think, okay, he's saying Hamas killed 1200 people. A third of them were soldiers, a third of them were military people who were active duty in the military, and then civilians as well. Israel has done that a thousandfold to the Palestinians. So I think even in the most reductive ways, even in the most reductive ways to try to comprehend what I'm saying there, people can understand that. I think people are not stupid. We assume that they're stupid.

[Jon Favreau]

I will tell you. Well, I'll tell you how it landed with me, because I was like, it wasn't like, oh, wait, why did he say that? Israel's some great. I was like, Israel has committed just horrific atrocity. Like, what? I. Like I, you know, I have moved so far on this, but I'm like, Hamas is. They're fucking.

[Hasan Piker]

What did they do?

[Jon Favreau]

Like, October 7th was catastrophic for them. It was also like, we've all seen the images. Like, like, kids and people, and a lot of like, very. These are like leftist peaceniks, Israelis at a concert, and they fucking massacred them. And I'm like, these people are like, I just want to have. And I do think it's important in politics to have, like, universal principles, right? Which is like, if violence is always wrong, civilian violence is always wrong, targeting children and women, always wrong, no matter which side does it. Right? And I do think that it's important, not just from a moral perspective, but from, like, a building a political coalition perspective to say, if I think one thing is wrong, one action is wrong on this side, then it also has to be wrong on the other side, even if there is an obvious power imbalance and even if there is a history.

[Hasan Piker]

But we don't always do that, is my point.

[Jon Favreau]

Oh, I know.

[Hasan Piker]

We don't do that when the dust is settled. We don't do that when the historic forces have played itself out and we look back at it and I don't see a reason not to apply that same interpretation because I see the civilians on both sides as human beings worthy of dignity. And I think a lot of people don't realize that they do have a little bit of an implicit bias where we've been trained as Americans living here during the global war on terror, to collateralize one side and to see the other side as like a European style country that's under attack.

[Jon Favreau]

I do agree.

[Hasan Piker]

So we have the capacity to see the violence that Israelis are subjected to as like real human beings, maybe even your neighbor dying in the hands of scary brown people, as opposed to Palestinians that die. Entire city blocks reduced to rubble is something that we've seen so many times on the tv, whether it be the Syrian civil war, whether it be, you know, Iraq, Afghanistan. So we automatically collateralize those, the lives of those Palestinians. So that's part of the reason why

[Jon Favreau]

I would say that those images are, I think, the most popular. Like, that is what personally has moved me the most, is seeing those images. Like I remember like in and, you know, post October 7th, and we talked about it a lot here and the student protest movement and all the craziness over that. And I remember thinking like it was there was that Columbia student who I think was eventually suspended or expelled or whatever for saying, like, you're lucky I didn't kill more Zionists and all that, you know, And I, and I remember thinking to myself, like, I, someone says something like that and it's just a reaction that I can't even, like, it's just a human reaction to be like, oh, maybe I don't want to be with these, like, this is bad. I don't want to hear like, that's. Now you want to kill Zionists or you, like, that's fucking crazy. That's hurting your movement.

[Hasan Piker]

Yeah, no, I've been, Look, here's the thing. I've been around protest movements my whole professional media career for a very long time. I've been doing this for a decade plus. There's going to be cringe people, there's going to be passionate people that say unhinged things that I totally disagree with. At the end of the day, this is exactly what happened with Black Lives Matter as well, where, you know, there'd be like a, there'd be someone that says like, yeah, fry them like bacon. And then the media would laser in on that to disparage the entire movement. So I have a policy of looking at what the actual movement represents. Do I identify with those values? Do I agree with them rather than, you know, key, key offenders that have said something that I consider to be heinous as well.

[Jon Favreau]

Right.

[Hasan Piker]

And I don't spend a lot of time or put a lot of emphasis on people like that because I've been to these campuses, I've been to these encampments, and they were some of the best organized movements I have ever seen. They had messaging, discipline, they had all of the right things. They had protest marshals that would keep everything intact. They refused to talk to the media unless they had someone who was doing communication for the entire encampment that would talk to the media. And they still got brutalized. UCLA is the one I went to. I couldn't believe it. Like these, these, you know, pro Israel groups were they, they set up these massive, they set up this like massive auditorium, or not auditorium, I don't know what it's called, but like a projector where they were blasting October 7th footage and, and calling these student encampment student protesters. Like heinous words. They threw fireworks into the encampment. They brutalized these students. And these weren't students that were doing that. These were pro Israel people that just came from around the area. Right. And I couldn't believe what I saw where like the media's coverage was either both sidesing it or oftentimes siding with the pro Israel, with the pro Israel people. So like, for me, again, it's, I look at the values and I also don't place a lot of emphasis on like whatever the media narrative is because we love doing that. We love having a conversation about, like, whose feelings are being hurt in the western world when the conversation should be about, you know, who's dying in Gaza.

[Jon Favreau]

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Okay.

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plus get a free professional measure at blinds.com rules and restrictions apply on On Zionism. You know, being an anti Zionist when you say you're an anti Zionist, are you rejecting the premise that a Jewish homeland is a legitimate project at all? Or is your anti Zionism specifically about the policies and practices of the Israeli state as it exists today?

[Hasan Piker]

I think Zionism is a fascist ideology. It really, it truly.

[Jon Favreau]

How do you Because I do, I think part of the issue. I think this is like a definitional issue for two. Oh yeah, obviously. But I do think that like there's probably a lot of, I think a lot of probably secular liberals and even secular Jews in this country who think of Zionism as they do Like, I like the idea of a Jewish homeland and do not think ethnostate. Do not think any of that other stuff. And then there's people who, you know, who very much define it as, no, it must always be a Jewish majority state. And if democracy and equal rights come second, then so be it.

[Hasan Piker]

Yeah, well, that is what has happened, right?

[Jon Favreau]

That is defacto. That's what we have right now.

[Hasan Piker]

It's de facto what we have right now. And it was something that we were always going to head in the direction of because, I mean, even Stalin was a big advocate of Israel initially. I mean, they were the ones who trafficked weapons in 1947. That was you. That were used on Palestinian villages by way of Czechoslovakia, Right. Illegally going through the blockade. There was this idea that, like, initially Labor Zionism and, you know, Ben Gurion was a socialist, right? Like this was going to be like almost like a Marxist project, but it was just ethnic cleansing from the start. And my assessment on Zionism as an ideology is not that different from Albert Einstein's assessment of Zionism, because when he saw Deir Yassin and the violence that the early Zionist brigades were engaging in, Haganah, Irgun, Lehi, these militia movements before the IDF existed, before Israel existed, and he was actually asked to be the first president of Israel, he wrote about what Zionism was turning into, and he warned that what he was seeing was exactly what the Nazis were doing. And he warned about it. He said, if we do not have a commitment to binationalism, if we do not have a commitment to the people that are already living there, the atrocities that I'm seeing that Zionist brigades are engaging in right now committing right now against the Palestinians is going to turn into exactly what the Nazis have done. And he was right. He saw it ahead of time. I mean, he knew what the Nazis were. He lived through it. Right? And so my perspective is shaped by people who have done either extensive research on this, like, you know, Israeli historian like Ilan Pape, Avi Shalem, or people who have lived through this process, many of which are Jews who have lived through this process and could not comprehend it. One of the first people that I interviewed after October 7 was Dr. Ofer Kassif. He is the only Jewish anti Zionist in the Knesset. There's a Palestinian citizen of Israel who's also an anti Zionist in the Knesset. They have like two people basically very. It's a lone voice, but they exist.

[Jon Favreau]

Right.

[Hasan Piker]

I care about the perspective of people like that as well. So I develop a better Understanding of, like, what it looks like to have to fight fascist forces in the country that you're a part of, in the country that you love, in the country that you want to change in a better. Change towards a better future, towards a better trajectory. Because I see it as the same fight that I'm fighting here in America. Because Zionism, at the end of the day, like I said, is an ethno religious supremacist ideology that is exterminationist. And it's in many respects no different than what we see in maga. Right. Christian nationalism. That is a fascist ideology. I don't think you would disagree with that. Right?

[Tommy Vietor]

No.

[Jon Favreau]

And there's. I mean, there's also ethno nationalism. Israel has, like, laws that have put this into place, but, like, there's de facto ethno nationalism in many different countries around the world. There's. You could make the same critique of Hindu nationalism, the Turkish treatment of the Kurds again, Japanese immigration policy, things that

[Hasan Piker]

I oppose vehemently and things that I talk about extensively. Oftentimes people will yell at me for my criticism of both of those things.

[Jon Favreau]

Yeah, you've said you abhor antisemitism. You've drawn a distinction between being anti Israel and anti Semitic. Yeah, I take that at face value. Here's the harder question. Like, where exactly do you draw the line? Because I think most serious people agree that anti Zionism isn't automatically anti Semitism, but there is disagreement where the line runs in specific cases. And I think, you know, some of your rhetoric, whether it's out of context or not, has landed in the gray zone. Like calling ultra Orthodox Jews inbred, comparing liberal Zionists to liberal Nazis. The pig dogs comments.

[Hasan Piker]

The pig dog one is. I didn't even know that was, like, a thing. Did you know that it was a. Nope. Yeah, I don't. Because even Jake Tapper, when he brought it up, he's like, I don't know what this is, but he was like, clearly reading a quote from in front of him. He's like, the ADL gave me this.

[Jon Favreau]

Well, I know. I went through it and I'm like, I've seen it. And there's like, well, there's a.

[Hasan Piker]

It's one of those. Yeah, I didn't even. It's like one of those things.

[Jon Favreau]

I guess the larger question is, like, how do you think about. As you're talking about this, drawing the line in a way where you're like, okay, if I'm going to, you know, I am anti Zionist. I want to make this argument. I want to talk about the project, but I really don't want to anyone to take it as anti Semitic.

[Hasan Piker]

Yeah.

[Jon Favreau]

Not just because it hurts your feelings, but because you're trying to. You're trying to build a political movement.

[Hasan Piker]

Yeah, well, it's not just because I want to build a political movement. It's because I also genuinely abhor anti Semitism. I. So it's a great question. It's one that I answer all the time. Because this is a real problem right now where, like, anti Semitism is growing in this country. It's undeniable, as it historically always has. Whenever Israel does these sieges, the. The mowing of the lawn operations and is doing it, and it's tying itself to Judaism in this very sinister way. And people see that and they think, okay, well, you know, this is the Jewish state doing this. Maybe it's the Jews. Right? There's already a lot of people that have these opinions about, you know, Jewish billionaires and Jewish millionaires controlling the media, controlling the banking system. So, like, it pairs up perfectly with what they're seeing, and we've definitely seen a great deal of that. Right. So what I try to do is stress the importance and showcase that this, this attitude is not monolithic inside of the American Jewry. The reason why I think it's very important, even though I'm a Muslim guy, so most people, when they hear me say that, they don't give a shit, right? Because they're like, yeah, you're. You're goy splaining. But the. The reason why I stress that importance is because it's true. I mean, there's a funny saying. It's like, what, two Jews, three opinions, right? Like, no group are. No group is monolithic. And Jewish Americans certainly are not. They have very different assessments of what's going on. And we see that. We see that in the polling that is conducted. Right?

[Jon Favreau]

We see it within Israel as well.

[Hasan Piker]

Yeah, yeah, exactly. No, I mean, well, Israel's a little bit different because, like, at that, at a certain point, and there is an overwhelming force of people who are on board.

[Jon Favreau]

Well, you're there. It's a different perspective. So

[Hasan Piker]

what I show always to people is that there's a difference between a lot of Jewish institutions and how Jews actually feel. And I actually sometimes will make a plea to not only my Jewish fans, but just to whoever is listening. And hopefully people will take away this message as well, to try to separate Israel from their institutions and to show themselves as if you consider what Israel is doing to be repugnant, then stress that there is that distinction between a Jewish institution that you might be a part of and how much they celebrate Israel or how much they try to fundraise for the idf, for example, or do settler fairs, which are illegal inside of synagogues. Right. Because from what my experience, there are a lot of Jewish advocacy organizations in this country and a lot of Jewish institutions in this country that simply masquerade as Jewish institutions and Jewish advocacy organizations when they're just pro Israel advocacy organizations and institutions. The ADL is a great example of this. The Apartheid Defense League, as I like to call them, led by Jonathan Greenblatt, is very obviously not invested in combating anti Semitism at all and is simply using anti Semitism in this cynical way to attack critics of Israel, prominent critics of Israel that have spent decades fighting anti Semitism and still continue to do so, myself included. And that separation, that lack of separation, rather, is teaching Americans who have not been inundated with, you know, Zionist indoctrination, who haven't, you know, who don't have any association with Jews other than watching Seinfeld and thinking, oh, you know, they control the media, but they make good movies. Right? Like, that's the attitude of the average American about Jewish people who are some, I think, the most celebrated religious minority in this country. Most celebrated religious group in this country. I don't know where it is right now, but that's what the polling is consistently. And the least is, I think Mormons, weirdly enough. But anyway, surprising. But the way that people see it is they watch heinous violence unfold and they see the Israeli state, call itself the Jewish state. And then they see Americans, American Jews and Jewish institutions say, yes, that is the Jewish state. Zionism is important to us. It is the most important thing. We are tied to Israel in this inseparable way. We do care about it. And you as an American should shut up. You as an American should be canceled. You as an American should not have a job if you speak out against Israel because you're being anti Semitic. What lesson are we teaching Americans? We're teaching them that every Jewish person demonstrates dual loyalty, which is false. It's a trope, it's a lie, it's not true. But that's what we're teaching people. And we're also teaching people that everything that Israel does, it does for Jews. Every time we call Israel the Jewish state, that's what we're doing. That's what we're teaching regular Americans. So I try to combat those forces on a daily basis. And ironically enough, I would say this, like, at my size in the streamer universe, especially where most of the prominent Israel critics are Candace Owens, Tucker Carlson, Nick Fuentes, and many other right wing forces, they don't care about making that distinction. I do. So it blows my mind that groups like the Apartheid Defense League spend most of their time trying to deplatform me.

[Jon Favreau]

And when you hear them too, you'll hear, I mean, some of them are just all conspiracy all the time. But like, you know, Tucker Carlson's a good example. They'll be like, he'll do like a very thoughtful critique of Israel and then suddenly like, launch into a conspiracy where you're like, okay, now we're just, this is just. Now we're into anti Semitic territory. Now it's a Jewish conspiracy for this and that and the other. And it's like, they do. Yeah, it is a real difference. But I do think that, like, look, I find as someone who has not always talked about this issue, but has a lot recently, like, it feels often like a minefield as you're talking about it, because I very much like the idea that I would say anything anti Semitic is like, horrifying to me. You know, I believe anti Semitism is very, very real. But it is quite difficult because a lot of very pro Israel voices will say that's anti Semitic by, because of you've called Israel.

[Hasan Piker]

There's also a lot of stuff, there's also a lot of stuff that Israel does or Israel advocacy groups do that objectively does look insane when you explain it. Like, one of the things that I've talked about or one of the things that I talked about early on was sometimes you hear something that Israel has done and you're like, did they, did they do that? Are you being anti Semitic right now? And then you find out, you're like, oh my God, they did do that. That is insane. So, like, there is that element of it too, where on the one hand a lot of defenders of Israel will call, like, anything that you say blood libel. Like, oh, Israel kills children. That's blood libel. How dare you say that? It's like, well, I've seen it. Like, I've seen the children, the numbers are there. And I've also personally seen some of the children that have been murdered with these bombing campaigns. Right? So that already undermines the impact of blood libel as a, as a way to have a conversation about blood libel to begin with, which is a real historic wrong, a real historic way to associate people of the Jewish faith with, like, you know, whatever heinous acts that led to the pogroms. Right? So you're undermining anti Semitism every time you do that. But then also simultaneously, you're teaching people that this is a good thing. This is something that you defend. This is something you consider to be defensible, and you're doing that while you're associating with Judaism. The way I explain it, I delivered a speech at the Oxford Union a year and a half ago at this point, and the way I explained it to people, and at the time, the change in attitude in the Western world was not so calcified. Right. But my positions were obviously the same. And I explained to people, look, what a lot of people don't understand with this dangerous conflation, I will give you a warning. As a Muslim American who has lived in the United States of America since 2009 and has experienced Islamophobia, a lot of people think that Israel is still, you know, an acceptable country. It's no longer an acceptable country. It will become a pariah state, if it hasn't already. It has always been a pariah state for the third World. But now in the first World, in the developed nations, people are beginning to recognize Israel as a pariah state. The previous ways of defending Israel by saying, it's the most moral nation on earth, it's the only democracy in the region. No matter how racialized those tropes were and how silly they were, it worked because most people were oblivious to what Israel does now they know. So this would be equivalent to me running around and saying, you can't criticize Saudi Arabia because the Mecca is there, Medina is there, the Kaaba is in Saudi Arabia. You cannot criticize Saudi Arabia's blockade against Yemen, for example, because you're Islamophobic. This would be the equivalent of me running around as a Muslim saying, I'm a Muslim. And our institutions, our mosques, are fundraising for isis. And if you criticize isis, if you dare say anything about the Islamic State that are trying to implement a caliphate, that's true Islam, you're Islamophobic. And then the media was also defending that position, and all of our institutions were defending that position.

[Jon Favreau]

Well, I also think it's easier now for unfortunately, very unfortunately for Americans to understand because we are seeing something like that happen here in the United States under Trump. But also, like, I think this will sound crazy, but I thought the only. One of the most compelling things, maybe one of the only compelling things Joe Biden said after October 7th right after October 7th was. Yeah, right. Yeah. Was that he warned. He gave a warning to Israel. Don't do what we did after 9, 11.

[Hasan Piker]

Yeah.

[Jon Favreau]

Don't make that mistake now.

[Hasan Piker]

Yeah, we know what happens when they hugged Benjamin and.

[Jon Favreau]

Yeah, right. We all know what happened from there. But I think about that often because. And now all these, you know, these years later as Trump, Trump's second term has, you know, he's charging towards, you know, an authoritarian state as well. I'm always like, how can you. Like, of course it's easy to imagine another country doing something like this. Because it's happening here.

[Hasan Piker]

Yeah, no, that's exactly.

[Jon Favreau]

That's why it's not. It doesn't have to do with anything about the specific religion. It's what happens when people are in power and they decide to use that power to oppress other people. Like that is the. All right, let's get back to American politics. We. Before we close.

[Hasan Piker]

I mean, I would say Israel politics is America.

[Jon Favreau]

It is right now. Yeah.

[Hasan Piker]

Just like you also brought up. And not just like foreign policy. I mean, what you're talking about is correct. It's the same exact fascist forces and sometimes it's the same exact, like ethno religious attitudes. Like the ethno religious supremacist attitudes. That is, is, you know, the, the guiding principle of this growing maga fascist movement in this country.

[Jon Favreau]

Stephen Miller.

[Tommy Vietor]

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[Jon Favreau]

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[Jon Favreau]

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[Jon Favreau]

We got midterms in November 2028. Democratic primary is already beginning. We had a bunch of potential candidates were at Sharpton's event in New York. The DNC winter meeting kicked off Thursday. How do you see your role in electoral politics over the next few years?

[Hasan Piker]

I see myself as a megaphone for the people. And if I mean I have, I'm fortunate enough to have a fairly large platform at this point. So the way I look at it is, look, I have a lot of door knockers, phone bankers, fundraisers in my community, community leaders and people that are, you know, running for office as well, running for office themselves, labor organizers and the media as well. So like these are some of the most tuned in people to politics. They're tuning in the politics when it's boring. They're tuning into politics before the primaries. Right. And they're certainly tuning in in the general. You want to talk to these people because even if size wise, they might not be the biggest force, like I don't have the same audience as like Joe Rogan, for example. Their impact is outsized. So you want to be able to convince these people that you're their guy. And a lot of politicians have recognized that. And it's really interesting because like these past two weeks they've been writing all of these different things about how dangerous it is. And Democrats shouldn't associate with me. And then they're like, associate with us the third way instead. And it's like no one fucking cares about that. But I have fielded hundreds of requests at this point leading up to the primaries. After those, after those articles came out, it probably 10 xed. It's insane. People are just like, yeah, okay, I don't care. Yeah, please, please, let's do like. Yes, yes. And places that you would find very interesting as well. It's not just like, you know, radical lefty candidates either. There are a lot of people who are like, this is a. This is clearly a massive audience. You have the capacity to communicate with, you know, young men especially. And we want to be able to reach out to those people that we've lost. So. So, you know, so that's it.

[Jon Favreau]

Before this last media cycle for you, there was one, I think, in March. You said you wouldn't vote for Gavin Newsom against J.D. vance in 2028. And you vote third party.

[Hasan Piker]

I mean, I don't even think that's gonna be a problem.

[Jon Favreau]

Well, a lot of people, including people who share a lot of your critiques of the Democratic Party, hear that and think like, this is the problem. You know, when the stakes are concrete, like advance presidency, another four years of what we're living through. So the people who say they're building a movement would rather preserve their own power than do what winning requires and hold your nose and vote for what you believe would be the lesser of two evils. How do you respond to that? I realize that you are a California voter, but you have fans and audience, I'm sure, in a lot of the swing states. What do you tell people who follow you, who respect you, who happen to live in swing states? As we head to 2026 and 2028,

[Hasan Piker]

I want the Democratic Party to treat me like a never Trumper. I want the Democratic Party to treat me like a triple Trump voter, okay? Cuz it turns out that's all they're tuned into. So if that, if what it takes for the Democrats to turn around and be like, wait a minute, we're losing this guy, we have to win him over again, or whatever, instead of just like taking my vote for granted as they've done so over and over again for the left flank, then you know, I'm going to say things that, that may or may not end up being true, but it doesn't matter. We're so far out from the election anyway that it's like I'm just saying, look, now is your opportunity to find a good candidate instead.

[Jon Favreau]

But you see as we head into these, that like, after what we've lived through these last years, the stakes and the stark difference between even a Democrat who you and I might find not up to par, to say the least, versus Vance or whoever the fuck they put up.

[Hasan Piker]

Of course, I mean, I hate Republicans. I oppose them. I Say that all the time. I think that the Republicans are far more damaging. The biggest terrorists, the biggest domestic terrorists in this country, the biggest terrorist internationally is the Republican Party. And not only that, but it's just like, I want to fight against the growing fascist movement in this country. My frustration with the Democrats is their conciliatory attitude towards that and their lack of investment in this struggle. This idea that on the one hand you say, Donald Trump's a dangerous force. I see that. I recognize that. But then you turn around and you take on his anti immigrant narratives and anti immigrant messaging from the 2020 election that you won and decide you're gonna be the sincere candidate that ends up dealing with the growth of migration in this country. It's a failure. If you were serious about being an anti fascist, if you were serious about combating these forces, you would take it more seriously. You would do everything you can. You wouldn't try to win by your own coalition that you want to build and like, you know, parade Liz Cheney around and act as though you're gonna win with, like, never Trumpers or whatever. You would do everything in your power to talk to people on your left flank. And we're seeing that now better than ever before with people like Platner in Maine. Right. That, like, you can actually be an outspoken leftist that says, I'm for pro. I'm. I'm pro Medicare for all. I'm an anti Zionist, I'm anti genocide. You have candidates like that winning at least, you know, inshallah, winning in places like man, and unseating Republicans, even. You got Dan Osborne. Like, not every single one of these guys is the same. Yeah, right.

[Jon Favreau]

They don't always, like, all their positions are going to line up.

[Hasan Piker]

Yeah. They're not uniform. But there is this broad left flank, left populism, Bernie Crat attitude that I'm seeing from a lot of candidates. And I think the centrist forces are very afraid of the movement that is building, the movement that is brewing on that side. Because they don't want a thousand Zorans. I want a thousand Zorans to bloom. Okay. Let a thousand Zorans blossom all around the country. That's what I want.

[Jon Favreau]

He's very popular right now.

[Hasan Piker]

Yeah.

[Jon Favreau]

Do you want to say something nice about Jon Ossoff or do you like him enough that you realize saying something nice about him would be bad?

[Hasan Piker]

Well, I don't think. See, that's the thing. I don't believe that. Because if I believe that I would be a burden to campaigns, I wouldn't go out and campaign with people that I like. They, ironically enough, did think that way back in the day when I first actually worked with the Ossoff campaign and then the Raphael Warnock campaign, the first election that they did, did. Right. And I work with them privately. I set it up to. For them to do something on Twitch, but I, I did it on background because they were worried that, like, associating with me even back then would be bad for Georgia. I don't agree. I don't think that's the case at all. You look at all these places, you look at, like, some of the most conservative places in, like, Virginia or, or West Virginia even, and you, you poll them on, on things like, what do you think about the dsa? What do you think about Israel? And it's like, they're a lot closer to me than they are to an establishment Democrat. Right. And the same goes for Medicare for all. So, like, the idea that we have not also polarized in the exact same way that the Republicans have is very silly. We're in a very different political environment now, and we're in a very different media environment right now. And it's actually mainstream media that's trying to play catch up. It's actually the establishment Democrats that are trying to play catch up to. To where the public is actually at most. People don't care about this stuff. They don't. They see the clips and they go, okay, that sounds kind of crazy. Let me go check this guy out. And then they, and then they hear what I have to say. Because I'm not a political operative that doesn't have his own platform. I'm a political operative with his own platform that is competitive with these other platforms that are speaking over me. So I'm endlessly accessible. You can just come and see what I have to say, see what I'm about, and very quickly realize that perhaps the way that I'm being presented in mainstream news is maybe not the right way. Maybe it's a little bit of a manufactured outrage campaign. And one example I'll use is this. I was monitoring the situation on my flight back from Michigan to Los Angeles, which apparently some agent of Laura Loomer took a photo of me sleeping, which was so crazy. But while I was monitoring the situation, I was listening to Dana Bash talk about what's going on in Iran. Then all of a sudden, Dana Bash starts talking about me and had my choice quotes up there. You know, like the, The. The most insincere one is me actually defending or claiming that I'M you know, defending rapes or, or whatever, like denying sexual assault.

[Jon Favreau]

I didn't bring that one up because I do think that was the most out of context one.

[Hasan Piker]

Yeah, that was clearly so messy.

[Jon Favreau]

You weren't saying rape doesn't matter. You were saying, yeah, it doesn't justify genocide. The rape doesn't. Yeah, it doesn't change the moral calculus on either side, I think, which is, I'm just like, it's, you know, Hamas did something catastrophic and, and committed horrible atrocities. You brought up whether rape or not existed like that. It was still.

[Hasan Piker]

You brought up a really good point. Israel had a literal pro rape 1-6-style riot after 6 of, of the Israeli occupation forces concentration camp guards as Sdei Taymon were prosecuted for raping Palestinian prisoners and they released them. And then Benjamin Netanyahu apologized for even attempting to prosecute them. And now one of them is like a famous television guy. I still don't think, I think that's the most heinous thing, that's the most insane thing I've ever heard. Right.

[Jon Favreau]

And back to my universal prince.

[Hasan Piker]

But I still don't think Israel should be wiped out.

[Jon Favreau]

Sexual violence, horrific. No matter who commits it anyway.

[Hasan Piker]

But, but I don't think Israel should, should receive what Israel has done to the Palestinians in, in, you know, in retaliation to that. That's my assessment. That's my attitude. But wait, what? Dana Bash. So there's a guy sitting next to me and he's looking at the tv. He's also watching cnn. He turns around, it's like, that's like, is that you? And I was like, haha, no. And then I was like, yeah, it's me. And the quote that was on screen was America deserved 9 11. So I'm going through the motions of like, this guy is sitting next to a big bearded dude on a plane who is on a plane associated with 9 11. Like, and I was just like, oh that's, that's, you know, they're taking me out of context. Like, you know what it is? And he was like, he turns to me, he's a liberal guy, he's flying back to LA because fucking hate cnn. He's like, I hate Dana Bash. So he automatically was on my side because of the resentment that he has towards cnn.

[Jon Favreau]

That is, maybe that's, that's a good place to leave it. That's a good place to leave it. And look, we love Dana Bash here. Maybe we'll get her here and we can talk about this too. Hasan, thanks for coming on. You'll have to come out again next time. You're causing a lot of trouble.

[Hasan Piker]

Yeah, I mean, that's probably gonna keep happening. It seems so.

[Jon Favreau]

Okay, well, we'll see ya.

[Hasan Piker]

Thank you for having me.

[Jon Favreau]

Of course. Thanks to Hasan Piker for coming on the show. Tommy Lovett and I will be back in your feeds on Tuesday with a new episode. If you want to listen to Pod Save America ad free and get access to exclusive podcasts, go to cricket.com friends to subscribe on Supercast, Substack, YouTube or Apple Podcasts. Also, please consider leaving us a review that helps boost this episode and everything we do here at Crooked. Pod Save America is a crooked media production. Our producer is Saul Rubin. Our associate producer is Farah Safari. Austin Fisher is our senior producer. Reed Churlin is our executive editor. Adrian Hill is our head of news and politics. Jordan Kanter is our sound engineer with audio support from Kyle Seglin and Charlotte Landis. Matt DeGroat is our head of production. Naomi Sengel is our executive assistant. Thanks to our digital team, Elijah Cohn, Hayley Jones, Ben Hefcoat, Mia Kelman, Kiril Pelaviev, David Toles, and Ryan Young, our production staff is proudly unionized with the Writers Guild of America East.