Pod Save America — “Heather Cox Richardson on Donald Trump, MAGA and How We Fight Back”

Date: September 7, 2025
Host: Dan Pfeiffer (Crooked Media)
Guest: Heather Cox Richardson

Main Theme:

A historical perspective on America’s current political crisis, MAGA's roots, and hope for democracy, as historian Heather Cox Richardson joins Dan Pfeiffer to connect today’s threats to American democracy with recurring cycles in U.S. history—and to lay out how ordinary people can push back.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Heather Cox Richardson’s Unplanned Journey to Public Historian

• The Origin Story: Richardson clarifies that her “journey” into public media was unplanned. Her history work—studying how ideas and change shape society—remains the same, whether teaching, writing books, or reaching vast audiences online.

  • “That transition, I don’t think there ever really has been a transition. I still do what I have always done. I’m just doing it with a lot more people now.” — Heather Cox Richardson [03:21]

• Rise to Influence:

  • She started sharing her perspective on Facebook; a viral moment after 2019 brought a million new followers, then Substack recruited her.
  • The move was motivated by a desire to “educate, inform, and build a community”—mirroring 19th-century independent journalism, rather than pursuing media as a business.
  • “There is really terrific stuff going on right now in independent media… that looks to me like a media revolution.” [09:00]

2. The Evolution of American Media and Hope Amidst Crisis

• Media’s Shifting Landscape:
  • Richardson is optimistic about independent media’s democratic influence, arguing legacy outlets are just one part of an expanding ecosystem.
  • “The media ecosystem is one heck of a lot larger than those who are tearing their hair out… are giving credit to.” [10:00]

3. Separating Signal from Noise in the Trump/MAGA Era

• Historian’s Perspective:
  • Richardson uses a historian’s eye to find the broader through-lines in the day’s political chaos, resisting Trump’s attempt to “chase everyone down a rabbit hole.”
  • Nights filled with “B-minus stories” prompt her to step back and look for the unifying myth or ideological conflict beneath the headlines.
  • “What does America do when its 40 years of mythology are proven to be wrong?” [13:00]

Memorable Quote

“At the end of the day, that’s what I look for—what does one do, as a human being, if the world you’ve constructed in your mind turns out to be fake?” — Heather Cox Richardson [13:55]

4. The Myth of the American Cowboy and Roots of MAGA Ideology

• Historical Roots of Modern Conservatism:
  • The image of the “rugged individualist cowboy” is a constructed myth, central to postwar conservative rhetoric.
  • This myth is used to oppose government interventions (civil rights, infrastructure, social safety nets) and rationalize resistance to multiracial democracy.
  • “Letting minorities vote… is by definition a form of socialism. It’s a political understanding more than an economic one.” [18:00]
  • The myth surged in the 1950s in reaction to civil rights advancements, repurposed for anti-government, individualist politics.
  • MAGA, Richardson argues, didn’t invent this narrative—they turned up the volume and made it their core identity.

5. Agency, Community, & the Battle of American Narratives

• The Pull Between Individualism and Community:

  • Biden and Obama foregrounded care for others as a core American value, but the individualist (cowboy) myth has been more contagious.
  • Richardson stresses the alternative vision: heroism as action within a community, not just lone cowboys riding off into the sunset.
  • “The idea of community in our history is that ... you have the power to change the country… by working together.” [27:10]

• Notable Correction:

  • Richardson objects to labeling the radical right as “conservative”:

    “They are not conservatives, they are radical.” [29:01]

6. Trump and the Mirage of “Unprecedented”

• Historical Parallels:
  • While it feels new, America has a long history of oligarchic, anti-democratic reaction (notably, the former Confederates after the Civil War). MAGA’s authoritarianism and racial/economic exclusion echo those patterns.
  • The Confederate romance and anti-government mythology have always been entwined.
  • “We sure as hell look a lot like the former Confederates in the American South after the Civil War.” [37:14]

7. Backlash, Populism, and the Arc to Trumpism

• The Long Road to Trump:
  • The rise of Trump is as much about decades of internal Republican narrative-shaping, media manipulation (post-Fairness Doctrine), and systematic delegitimization of democratic competition as it is about Obama’s election.
  • Post-2008, anti-Obama backlash led to gerrymandering (Operation RedMap), “voter fraud” myths, and a hard-right turn—creating conditions for MAGA.
  • “Trump really was the logical outcome of those forty years of Republican rhetoric, the skewing of the mechanics of the system.” [50:24]
• On Populism:
  • Trump, Richardson contends, was more a salesman than a politician—populism is less an ideology than a moment when the people realize they've been burned by false promises.
  • “Populism is more a moment in a population when the rhetoric no longer matched the reality and people were mad.” [52:17]

8. Deploying Troops Domestically—Dangerous Precedent

• Still-Relevant History:
  • Trump’s use of military against American citizens (in L.A., D.C., etc.) echoes 19th-century abuses—specifically, Hayes’s use of the Army after the disputed 1876 election, prompting the passage of the Posse Comitatus Act.
  • “If you put the disposal of the military into the hands of a president who uses it to protect his cronies, you’ve lost our democracy.” [60:56]

9. Can Americans Allow Democracy to Die?

• A Familiar Crisis:
  • Pfeiffer asks if America has ever before seen a broad acquiescence to democracy’s demise. Richardson says yes: “More than once—1850s, 1890s, 1930s, all of those times looked like they do today or worse.” [63:21]
  • Richardson details the 1850s, drawing parallels between elite planter takeover, Northern apathy, and the eventual populist pushback that found its voice in Abraham Lincoln.
  • Her point: when the public becomes aware and mobilized, democracy’s fortunes can change quickly.

Memorable Quote

“In nine years, you go from the elite enslavers getting it all to we’re going to have a new birth of freedom.” — Heather Cox Richardson [68:55]

10. How We Fight Back—Lessons from History

• Key Ingredients for Democratic Renewal:
  • The crucial factor in every crisis was not great leaders, but ordinary people spreading awareness and information—using media, meetings, and protest.
  • “What made the difference was that individuals made sure that their neighbors understood what was going on. That’s why media is so important.” [70:05]
  • Once active, people do care and will mobilize.
• Leaders Are Forged, Not Waiting in the Wings:
  • History’s key figures (like Lincoln) often emerge unexpectedly, reflecting the passions of the moment. Don’t look for a savior—create the conditions for leadership.
  • “He [Lincoln] came out of nowhere, not because he was waiting in the wings, so much as the people created him.” [72:00]

Timestamps for Major Segments

• 03:21 – Richardson on her accidental rise as a media figure
• 07:28 – 19th-century media models vs. modern media
• 09:47 – Hope in independent media
• 11:08 – How to choose what matters amid daily news chaos
• 17:07 – Deconstructing the “rugged individualist” myth
• 24:08 – Obama’s message vs. the cowboy myth; cycles of American political narrative
• 29:01 – The radical right is not “conservative”
• 34:26 – Is “this” really unprecedented?
• 40:14 – Was Trump a backlash to Obama, or something deeper?
• 50:24 – Trump as the destination of GOP narrative
• 57:20 – Posse Comitatus Act, the danger of deploying military domestically
• 63:21 – Past moments when democracy looked doomed
• 70:01 – What it takes to push back and save democracy
• 71:45 – On waiting (or not) for a heroic leader

Notable Quotes

“What does America do when its 40 years of mythology are proven to be wrong?” — Heather Cox Richardson [13:00]

“Letting minorities vote… is by definition a form of socialism. It’s a political understanding more than an economic one.” — Heather Cox Richardson [18:00]

“The idea of community in our history is that … you have the power to change the country… by working together.” — Heather Cox Richardson [27:10]

“They are not conservatives, they are radical.” — Heather Cox Richardson [29:01]

“We sure as hell look a lot like the former Confederates in the American South after the Civil War.” — Heather Cox Richardson [37:14]

“If you put the disposal of the military into the hands of a president who uses it to protect his cronies, you’ve lost our democracy.” — Heather Cox Richardson [60:56]

“In nine years, you go from the elite enslavers getting it all to we’re going to have a new birth of freedom.” — Heather Cox Richardson [68:55]

“What made the difference was that individuals made sure that their neighbors understood what was going on. That’s why media is so important.” — Heather Cox Richardson [70:05]

Tone & Takeaway

The conversation is candid, historically grounded, and ultimately hopeful. Richardson’s voice is both firm in warning about the gravity of this moment and confident that ordinary citizens, multiplied by community and communication, can take back their democracy. Both she and Pfeiffer reject cynicism and savior-complex thinking, urging listeners to stay informed, connect, and act together.

Recommended for listeners seeking:

• Deep historical context behind America’s current crisis
• Understanding where MAGA fits in the American story
• Concrete inspiration on democratic action and hope