Pod Save America – Crooked Con Special: “How Do We Push Back on Authoritarianism?”
Date: November 9, 2025
Podcast: Pod Save America (Crooked Media)
Episode Theme:
In this Crooked Con live episode, host Jon Favreau leads two back-to-back conversations: first, a deep-dive with Sky Perryman (Democracy Forward) and Norm Eisen (Democracy Defenders Fund) about the legal and public resistance to Trump-era authoritarianism; and second, a strategic roundtable led by Tommy Vitor with campaign managers behind big Democratic victories in New York, New Jersey, and Virginia, unpacking the tactics and lessons for fighting back at the ballot box.
Segment 1: Suing for Democracy – Legal Resistance to Authoritarianism (00:00–38:30)
Main Theme
How legal strategists and public interest lawyers are using the courts and organizing narratives to combat authoritarian threats to American democracy, with a focus on the Trump administration’s actions and Project 2025.
Key Discussion Points & Insights
1. Origins of Legal Resistance (03:31–07:02)
- Sky Perryman outlines Democracy Forward’s strategy: litigation as a tool for both stopping harmful policies and empowering people to assert their rights in the public square.
- “Suing your government or suing an autocratic actor can help change behavior, and it still does... it’s also the ability of people to stand up publicly and say, I have rights that you cannot take away.” (Sky Perryman, 04:15)
- Norm Eisen reflects on the personal, historic journey: “I have the dubious distinction of being the first person to sue him first in both of his presidential terms.” (Norm Eisen, 05:35)
- Emphasizes coalition-building with ACLU, Protect Democracy, Public Citizen, and others.
2. Litigation as Movement-Building (08:48–11:28)
- Both guests agree: courts are means, not ends; the real power is people, stories, and shaping the public narrative.
- Sky: “We don’t believe that it’s the courts that are going to save the country...We believe it is the people and the power of people to use the courts.”
- Court cases now often make news, driving investigative reporting, because legacy journalism has been eroded.
- Personal stories matter: cases bring real people and harm into the public eye (Norm’s story of Adrian Neyria Rangeland, a falsely deported barber: 11:31).
3. Strategy: Going on Offense & Coordinated Legal Shock and Awe (13:26–16:40)
- Legal teams quickly filed suit on Inauguration Day to halt or reverse administration actions, even while some Democrats hesitated.
- Sky: “The American people did not vote for Project 2025…that confidence in the people is what drove us.” (15:13)
- Building broad plaintiff coalitions across NGOs and impacted citizens is key; show up with strength, not just expertise.
4. Choosing the Right Cases & Leveraging the Court of Public Opinion (16:40–19:25)
- Norm Eisen: “The theory of change informs that. How are we going to actually restore democracy, stop this backsliding, then go forward again?... We think of it as court of law and court of public opinion.” (17:01)
- Example: Focusing on Trump-Epstein files as an emblem of deep corruption.
- Issues chosen for both legal merit and narrative breakthrough potential.
5. Fighting Back – From the East Wing to SNAP (22:29–26:53)
- Sky highlights investigation into Trump’s demolition of the White House East Wing: “We really view what the President has done to the East Wing...as a metaphor to what he is seeking to do to our country.” (22:34)
- Legal teams work around the clock; rapid response is enabled by advance planning against the Project 2025 playbook and a coalition of 650 organizations.
- “It is around the clock thing... There are over 650 organizations that are actively doing what they can do to contribute to what has been...the largest and most successful affirmative litigation effort against an executive branch in United States history.” (Sky Perryman, 24:23)
6. Supreme Court Limitations: Operating in a Hostile Judicial Climate (28:53–34:50)
- The SCOTUS is conservative and uses the shadow docket, but victories are still possible—and many pivotal cases never reach the Court.
- “The Supreme Court is tilting the playing field. You gotta pump your legs harder.” – Norm Eisen, 29:34
- Sky: “All of the fights in this country...were not handed down by the Supreme Court. They were hard-fought wins...”
- Many wins happen in lower courts, and sometimes administration retreats in the face of legal action without appealing.
7. Civic Participation is Everything (35:04–38:30)
- Litigation is necessary—not sufficient. Real power remains with the public.
- Norm Eisen’s advice: “The most important thing you can do...get them out there in the streets, peaceful protest and vote, vote, vote.” (36:39)
- Sky Perryman: “The number one thing that an autocrat uses...is people believing that they have no power...when we defy isolation, we can overcome.” (36:57)
Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments
- “They do not always know what to do with strength. If you could find a way to show up with the strength of the American people...” – Sky Perryman, 15:13
- “The secret is not to sleep.” – Norm Eisen, 26:58
- “The Supreme Court tomorrow upholds our rights, the next day you gotta be out marching...and if the Supreme Court tomorrow does something terrible...you better be out in the street marching.” – Sky Perryman, 34:37
- “We won't be saved without the litigation, but the litigation alone will not save us...” – Norm Eisen, 35:23
Key Timestamps
- 03:31 – Sky Perryman on litigation and origins
- 05:14 – Norm Eisen on coalition-building and first lawsuits
- 09:09 – Interplay between courts and narrative
- 13:26 – Strategy behind legal “shock and awe”
- 17:01 – Norm on the Trump-Epstein files and selecting cases
- 22:34 – East Wing case as allegory
- 24:23 – 24/7 legal response and coalition scope
- 29:34 – Supreme Court challenges and workarounds
- 34:37 – Civic action beyond courtroom
- 36:39 – Final calls to public action
Segment 2: Lessons from the Biggest Democratic Wins – Winning Campaigns Roundtable (41:08–76:06)
Panelists:
- Tommy Vitor (host)
- Alex Ball (Mikey Sherrill campaign, NJ)
- Morris Katz (Zoran Mamdani campaign, NY)
- Sampson Signore (Abigail Spanberger campaign, VA)
Main Theme
Dissecting the tactics and lessons from Democratic landslides in 2025: How to win against Trumpism, build effective campaign coalitions, and appeal across lines of difference on affordability, inclusion, competence, and change.
Key Discussion Points & Insights
1. Why Did You Win? (42:01–44:22)
- Affordability is the only message that cuts across classic divides.
- “We were relentlessly focused on driving down costs…” – Alex Ball, 42:01
- “A real willingness to name the villains...and a relentless pursuit of investing in what politics can be.” – Morris Katz, 42:34
- “Virginians and Americans...are tired of chaos and division; they want a return to normalcy...a return to the basics.” – Sampson Signore, 43:17
2. Navigating Trump and Chaos – Focusing on Consequences, Not Personalities (44:22–46:19)
- Campaigns avoided getting mired in daily Trump drama, focusing instead on real consequences: jobs lost, clinics closed, chaos created by specific policies.
- Persuading Trump voters: direct, on-the-ground engagement, especially with policies affecting cost of living.
3. Crossover & Change Elections; Traditional vs. Modern Campaigning (46:35–50:40)
- Targeted efforts and data-driven outreach delivered crossover Republican/independent votes.
- Innovative ad strategies: break from TV-only; meet audiences where they are (social media, influencers, digital buys).
- “It’s fucking all of it...if you could believe that the Knicks could win a championship, maybe you could believe that a 34-year-old Muslim socialist could be mayor.” – Morris Katz, 50:35
4. Culture Wars & Republican Attacks (51:02–53:22)
- GOP’s overreach on culture-war issues (esp. anti-trans) fell flat.
- Candidate bios matter; early inoculation and authenticity helped (Spanberger’s law enforcement/CIA background, for instance).
5. Tactical Innovations & Pitfalls (53:23–56:45)
- Ditching the questionnaire culture: instead use interviews; “Questionnaires need to be jettisoned from the party.” – Sampson Signore, 53:40
- Influencers and new media: Alex Ball describes building a “political influencer class” in New Jersey as critical to momentum amid declining legacy media.
6. Polling & Party Infighting (56:45–57:44)
- Major polling misses; skepticism over fly-by-night pollsters.
- “So I'll say Atlas intel. Missed it big time. Fuck Atlas Intel.” – Morris Katz, 57:44
7. Turning Youth, Diversity, and Nontraditional Bios Into Strengths (58:04–61:58)
- Youth energized the change message; bios matched the needs of their cities/states.
- “Over 10% of Trump voters voted for Zorin Mamdani. ...It sells voters short to pretend they’re not going to be able to see past someone named Zoran Mamdani.” – Morris Katz, 61:00
8. Persuasion vs. Turnout – The False Choice (62:31–65:05)
- Campaigns that excite are campaigns that persuade and turn out the base—there is no hard tradeoff if the messaging resonates.
- “Driving turnout gets you one vote, persuading a voter gets you two.” – Sampson Signore, 62:31
9. Targeted Outreach: Winning Latino Voters Back (65:09–66:31)
- To win back Latino voters, invest on the ground and in-language media without changing the affordability message; authenticity and respect matter.
10. Mistakes, Threats, and Intra-Party Challenges (66:31–70:23)
- AI fake videos: a new threat for campaigns, manipulating information flow with plausible fakes.
- Democratic infighting/bedwetting: “The bedwetting that happens in our party has got to stop.” – Alex Ball, 69:35
11. Israel, Antisemitism, and the Media Narrative (70:26–72:19)
- Social media inflames divisions and amplifies attacks, but substantive outreach and coalition-building can overcome.
12. Lightning Round: The Big Tent & Lessons for 2026 and Beyond (72:32–75:26)
- The “winning strategy” is a big tent, not left vs. center; local context matters:
- “It is a big tent that can go as far to the right as you want it to go, but there’s a very rigid edge on the left. And I think it doesn’t have to be like that.” – Morris Katz, 73:56
- “We are all united behind...that life is too expensive.” – Sampson Signore, 75:13
Notable Quotes
- “If you could believe that the Knicks could win a championship, maybe you could believe that a 34 year old Muslim socialist could be mayor.” – Morris Katz, 50:35
- “Driving turnout gets you one vote. Persuading a voter gets you two.” – Sampson Signore, 62:31
- “The bedwetting that happens in our party has got to stop.” – Alex Ball, 69:35
Key Timestamps
- 42:01 – Each strategist on why they won
- 46:35 – Persuading crossover voters
- 50:35 – Knicks campaign metaphor
- 53:40 – Ditching questionnaires
- 57:44 – Polling fails (“Fuck Atlas Intel”)
- 62:31 – Persuasion vs. turnout
- 65:25 – Winning back Latino voters
- 66:55 – AI video attacks
- 69:35 – Party infighting problems
- 73:56 – Big tent strategy
Episode Takeaways
- Legal pushback is potent and increasingly public/narrative-focused, but only works with civic mobilization.
- Campaign victories depend on disciplined messaging (affordability), authentic engagement (beyond Twitter), and adapting tactics (influencers, new media).
- The Democratic Party’s success in 2025 reflected coalition-building, innovative campaigning, and not flinching in the face of division, disinformation, or rightwing culture wars.
- Final Call: Courts, coalitions, and campaigns alone won’t save democracy. “People power” and community—on the streets, at the ballot, and in legal battles—is the indispensable ingredient.
For further exploration or the transcript, reach out to Crooked Media at transcripts@crooked.com.