Tommy Vietor (2:38)

Not love it.

Jon Favreau (2:39)

Not love it. No, of course not.

Jon Lovett (2:40)

No, no. I knew what it was, John. I knew what it was, so I didn't have to look it up.

Jon Favreau (2:46)

Then Pennsylvania Congresswoman Summer Lee stops by. Boy, she gonna be regret being in this episode. She talked with me about how congressional Democrats are trying to hold ICE accountable. The latest on pushing for the release of the Epstein files and lots more. But let's start with some big news about Trump's efforts to retaliate against anyone who's tried to hold him accountable. A federal judge has 86 the indictments of New York Attorney General Tish James and former FBI Director James Comey, based on the finding that Pam Bondi illegally installed the prosecutor in both cases, former insurance lawyer turned Trump defense attorney Lindsey Halligan.

Jon Lovett (3:26)

Judge Cameron, just imagine returning to Pambondi, is dismissed. Good. Does that mean did we win?

Jon Favreau (3:33)

Does that mean I'm dismissed? Can I go home now?

Tommy Vietor (3:35)

New job.

Jon Favreau (3:36)

Can I go back to Florida? Judge Cameron Curry held that when Trump and Bondi forced out the sitting U.S. attorney for the Eastern District of Virginia because he and the rest of his office refused to bring charges against Comey and James, his replacement should have been appointed by the judges in that district, not the administration. That makes the indictments and everything else invalid. Judge Curry dismissed the cases without prejudice, meaning the government could theoretically try to get new indictments signed by a different prosecutor. Though in Comey's case, the statute of limitations ran out on September 30, which the judge also noted. Still, the administration said it will appeal the judge's ruling. And they do have a few other potential options for getting a new prosecutor in there to try again. I just want to read you guys my favorite part of the ruling, and then you can react. Judge Curry wrote that the DOJ's argument would, quote, mean the government could send any private citizen off the street, attorney or not, into the grand jury room to secure an indictment. So long as the Attorney General gives her approval after the fact, that cannot be law. I don't know. That seems pretty cut and dry. I mean, they got pretty close to just sending in any private citizen officers.

Jon Lovett (4:44)

Yeah, they get closer and closer, that's for sure. An insurance lawyer has never been a prosecutor. Like, that's getting, getting Closer. Yeah, I talked to Leah Lippman about this on our YouTube and the strict scrutiny YouTube and she's a genuine expert. So I would suggest checking that out.

Jon Favreau (4:57)

But Pod Save America YouTube on the.

Jon Lovett (4:58)

Pod Save America YouTube, if you haven't.

Jon Favreau (4:59)

Subscribed already, what are you doing?

Jon Lovett (5:01)

But there's all, there's a question as to whether or not the Comey indictment can be revived because there's an extension because there was already an indictment. The issue here is that Pam Bondi put out a memo on Halloween basically saying retroactively that Lindsey Halligan is like a kind of has a special role in the department that allows her to do this. The bigger problem for them is their position is even though the law says after 120 days the courts have to appoint a prosecutor, their view is every time you fire an interim prosecutor, that clock goes back to zero. Which doesn't make sense because why would you ever then have the rule that lets the courts do it if you would never need to put it in place?

Jon Favreau (5:48)

And clearly it's a problem because Halligan is now the fourth interim U.S. attorney that a federal judge has ruled is. Is an unlawful appointment.

Jon Lovett (5:57)

So it's like being the head of.

Tommy Vietor (5:58)

Sketchy Al Qaeda number two.

Jon Favreau (6:01)

Tommy, what do you think?

Tommy Vietor (6:02)

I enjoyed it because not only the judge was like, not only is your indictment invalid, you basically don't exist as a person. Your entire existence is invalid. It literally refers to as a defective appointment, which could apply a lot of different ways.

Jon Favreau (6:15)

Leave this courtroom in shame.

Tommy Vietor (6:17)

Yeah, get out of here. And also it sort of, it freezes a bunch of the other parts of the appeals process. Yeah, the appeal. What happens next on appeal is confusing. In the Comey case, it does seem like you're outside the five year statute of limitations. So I think he would try to use that to get it dismissed. It's also a question of like Trump, who is Trump going to get to bring this case again? He's probably going to have to put forward a U.S. attorney candidate, get that person appointed, get that person confirmed by the Senate to. Because no one else is going to take up this case. It's clearly terrible case.

Jon Favreau (6:45)

I mean, Rudy seems like he's got some.

Tommy Vietor (6:47)

Giuliani's got some time.

Jon Lovett (6:48)

It's funny to think about. It is also unprecedented. So it's like, was there an indictment against Comey? Because she's just a stranger off the street who's like, so can like, if somebody on the street's like, I've indicted James comey. I'm the U.S. attorney. But. But according to the law, they're not like, is there, like. So that there is genuinely an open question as to whether there could be an extension. It's worth also noting that the law, they're all going after this judge as being some kind of democratic plant who's out to protect Tish James and James Comey. Smartly she uses. Part of the logic is the same logic that Eileen Cannon used to dismiss the case that Jack Smith had brought because Jack Smith wasn't legally appointed, according to Eileen Cannon. So they're defending on the same logic there.

Jon Favreau (7:28)

Yeah. I mean, the invalid appointment of Halligan is just like tip of the iceberg. And the problems with both of these indictments, as we have seen, like, you could get a really, a prosecutor who was both skilled, experienced, and legal in there, and they would still have real problems with both of these cases.

Jon Lovett (7:49)

Barely legal prosecutors we're dealing with here.

Tommy Vietor (7:53)

This case looked at just this question of whether it was valid under the appointments clause. Yeah. There are a bunch of other issues that are still pending.

Jon Favreau (8:00)

Yeah. Speaking of alien canon, did you guys see this long New York Times story over the weekend where it's connected to this? Because. So they're like, okay, now Trump appointed the guy in the Eastern District of Virginia. He refused. He was a Trump appointee. They thought that he would bring a case against Comey. He refused. Everyone in the office refused. They had to find Lindsey Halligan off the street. Now this isn't working out. So now they get a new thing where in Florida, they've convened a grand jury to look into all of the Obama era conspiracies that's got Trump all upset with Russiagate and all the rest of it. Why in Florida, you may ask? Because they say they're claiming that the raid of Mar A Lago, which was about stolen classified information, is somehow connected to the Russiagate stuff, which it's not. But they want it in Florida because they think better grand juries, better prosecutors, better judges, better weather. Better weather. And so they're gonna try to subpoena John Brennan and all the 2016 era Obama administration officials to go down there. But they're not happy with the first grand jury they have, which I guess is still in a district that's a little too blue, with potentially judges who respect the rule of law. So they are convening a second grand jury that starts this January in Fort Pierce. Why Fort Pierce? Because there's only one judge that you can draw at Fort Pierce, and that's Judge Cannon.

Jon Lovett (9:27)

Yeah, it's a shame.

Jon Favreau (9:27)

And the grand jury there would draw from an extremely red area, unlike the grand jury around Mar a Lago, which is Palm beach, which would be a little bluer. So they are now trying to have a district with a judge that's in Trump's pocket, a prosecutor U.S. attorney that's in Trump's pocket, and a grand jury that is super Trumpy.

Jon Lovett (9:43)

They're going to show up on that. You got to take a fanboat up to the fucking swamp courthouse in your, in your legally required jorts to go in front of the judge. And if you lose to the, to the alligators, you fucking go. It's, it's, it's swamp justice. Swamp justice for John Brennan. Swamp justice for Adam Schiff next fall.

Tommy Vietor (10:03)

On the History Show.

Jon Lovett (10:04)

Yeah, exactly.

Tommy Vietor (10:05)

Justice.

Jon Favreau (10:05)

I just think that obviously all of this is. It's funny, but very dangerous. But I think that the, what we're seeing here from the Halligan fiasco and the Comey and James fiasco is like, you can't just, like, legally loophole your way into prosecuting successfully a whole bunch of your perceived enemies for no crimes.

Jon Lovett (10:25)

Yeah.

Jon Favreau (10:26)

Like, there's always like. And even, even Cannon, if she's in this, you know, overseeing this grand jury. Yeah. Maybe they can get to the subpoena stage and get people to testify, but at some point, someone's going to appeal the decision to some other judge that has more of a respect for the rule of law than this group of dipshits.

Jon Lovett (10:41)

Yeah. I think what we're seeing over time is the how sophisticated does your corrupt operation have to be to succeed in America? And the level of sophistication required is dropping, but it is still. The waterline is still above where Lindsey Howard, INSURANCE attorney.

Tommy Vietor (10:59)

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Jon Favreau (11:00)

Which is good news for now. So far, it doesn't seem like losing the Comey and James cases in such an embarrassing fashion is deterring Trump and his goons from using the government to punish other Americans they don't like, at least trying. Pete Hegseth, who calls himself the Secretary of War, announced on Monday that he's launching a military investigation into Senator Mark Kelly, who's a retired naval officer, for the crime of saying in a video with other Democrats in Congress that military service members don't have to follow illegal orders, a message that led Trump to demand that Kelly and the other Democrats should be arrested and put on trial for seditious conspiracy, which Trump said is punishable by death. The Pentagon said they may end up recalling Kelly to active duty status in order to court Martial him. Kelly issued a response saying, in part, if this is meant to intimidate me and other members of Congress from doing our jobs and holding this administration accountable, it won't work. You guys think this is a serious threat or some bullshit Hegseth cooked up to make Trump happy? That isn't really going anywhere, Tommy.

Tommy Vietor (11:57)

Yeah, I think. I think what Jason Crow and everyone's saying is right. What Kelly is saying is right. This is an effort to intimidate them and silence them and try to get other people to be quiet going forward. I do think, though, once again, they are making some significant legal mistakes in the process of this little vendetta that we should talk through the first. Is that so? The Department of War. Tired of war. I hate saying that. They said they're reviewing these allegations in accordance with the Uniform Code of Military justice, the ucmj, which is basically the military justice system. Then dumbass Pete Hegseth tweets out a statement calling the congressman the Seditious six, and he said Kelly's conduct brings discredit upon the armed forces. So basically, he's calling Kelly guilty of sedition. Why does that matter? Because in the military, there is an important concept called unlawful command influence. It refers to a statement by a commander or a senior military leader that seems to influence the case. And that's a big deal in the military because you take orders from your superior. So if your superior in this case, the Secretary of Defense or war, is saying, this guy is guilty of sedition, then if you are, you work under him. If you're a defense attorney, if you're a prosecutor, if you are a member of the court martial, jury, jury pool, of course you're gonna be influenced by that. So I think he's probably shot himself in the foot. If this were actually a legal case, big picture, it's not. I mean, there is a plaque that hangs at West Point. The title is Loyalty to the Constitution. And it talks about how the US Military does not swear loyalty to our leaders, but to the Constitution. And that, quote, our American code of military obedience requests that should order in the law ever conflict. Our officers must obey the law. That's what these guys are talking about. And they're. They're clearly just worried that there is currently a policy in the Caribbean of murdering random fishermen in boats based on bad evidence. So I don't think this is going to work for Hegseth. Also, I think there's another piece of context that someone I was talking to today pointed out, which is that in the Ukraine, talks That we'll get to in a minute. One of the key parties is a guy named Dan Driscoll, the Secretary of the Army. He is also besties with JD Vance. When Hegseth was dealing with his whole signal gate thing, a lot of people were like, get rid of that clown. Put in Dan Driscoll. So now that Dan Driscoll's at the big boy table negotiating the big peace thing, Hegseth is at home freaking the fuck out and flailing, and this is his way to curry back favor with the White House.

Jon Favreau (14:08)

That would make sense.

Tommy Vietor (14:09)

Interesting political side note.

Jon Lovett (14:10)

Yeah. The Washington Post had this story about all the legal machinations to try to get approval for these strikes. They were trying to have it go through the CIA, but Stephen Miller found that imperfect because they wanted to be public and all the Post reported that junior officers in the military, fearing potential legal exposure, asked military lawyers, JAGs, for written sign off before taking part in strikes. So there's already agitation inside that people are being asked to participate in military actions that may be ultimately seen as illegal. The other part of this is Hegseth made a point of saying publicly like, I can't go after Liza Slotkin because she was CIA. I can't go after four of the others in that video because they're not technically retired. I can only really go after Mark Kelly using the Uniform Code of Military justice because Mark Kelly served his country for 25 years. The other thing that's jumped out at me about the video, the original video that set this off is they make a. They're very careful. It's very careful. Clearly these are people being very thoughtful and aware of the fact that this would cause blowback. And they make a point of saying, you can refuse unlawful orders.

Jon Favreau (15:24)

And.

Jon Lovett (15:24)

And I found that word just. That's a choice.

Congresswoman Summer Lee (15:26)

Right.

Jon Lovett (15:26)

Because they could say, you. You must refuse unlawful orders. But they chose their words really carefully to not be making any kind of a. They're not compelling anyone to do anything. They actually make a point of just stating what is ultimately the law, which is you do not have to follow unlawful orders. They issue no commands. As a former member of the Navy, whatever the implication is that Hegseth is making that he's using his sort of position as a retired captain to influence people. They. They chose their words to avoid this if they were going. If it was going to go all the way.

Jon Favreau (15:55)

And I think the Code of Military justice actually says you must refuse laws.

Tommy Vietor (15:58)

Yeah, I think they said both in the video. I think Jason Crow said must at one point too. But like the point stands. Like they're also, they're not telling these guys what to do. They're just pointing out what the law says.

Jon Favreau (16:08)

They're just restating the law.

Jon Lovett (16:09)

I think the require right. And then others have since pointed out, right, that the law is clear. You must follow lawful orders. You are required to disobey on the other ones.

Jon Favreau (16:16)

Also, even if they try to recall Kelly to active duty so they can try to, you know, use military justice here, he has a lot of legal options before he even gets to that point. He can go right to federal court if they try to recall him for active duty and argue first amendment violations, due process, misuse of recall authority, jurisdictional overreach being like what? Like this has nothing to do with my military service. This is something that I did outside of military. It's free speech. So there's a long way to go before he's even, you know, they try to attempt to court martial him or do anything like that. Like Pete Hegseth, the Secretary of Defense can't just go around and anyone who's retired just immediately call them back into active duty so that they can put them on trial. Like that's just not.

Jon Lovett (17:00)

Gallego made this point too that like there's a lot of very serious people that are not Trump goons like all along this process of enforcing the military code of justice. So yes, I agree.

Tommy Vietor (17:22)

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Congresswoman Summer Lee (18:57)

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Jon Favreau (19:14)

Kelly and the other Democrats didn't specify in the video which potentially unlawful orders they were referring to. But you know, as we've said and some of them have said in interviews that service members have expressed concern to them about the legality of Trump and Hegseth just blowing up boats in the Caribbean and near Venezuela, killing dozens of people now who the administration has claimed without evidence are bringing drugs to the US and it seems like Trump is planning more military action that could become a full scale war with Venezuela. Reuters reported on Sunday that the U.S. is quote, poised to launch a new phase of Venezuela related operations in the coming days, potentially beginning with covert operations. The Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, General Dan Raisin Kane, visited the US Southern Command in Puerto Rico on Monday, where Most of the 10,000American troops who have surged to the area are based. The State Department just designated Venezuela's president Nicolas Maduro and some of Maduro's allies as members of a foreign terrorist organization, specifically Cartel de los Solis, which by the way doesn't really exist. It's just a Venezuelan figure of speech used to describe corrupt military officials involved in the drug trade. So this news comes just as a new CBS poll has 70% of Americans opposing military action in Venezuela, including 53% of non MAGA Republicans and even 34% of MAGA Republicans. A slight majority of Americans do approve of the boat strikes, 53 to 47, but 75% say that the government needs to show evidence that the boats are carrying drugs, which of course they have not. Tommy, what do you think? Does Trump just think he can somehow oust Maduro without a large scale military operation that most Americans won't support. He just, like, thinks that there's, like, an easy way out here where we can get him without any cost to the US Military and that everyone will.

Tommy Vietor (20:54)

Be happy, I guess. I mean, maybe we'll find out. So I've talked to people who worked in Trump 1.0, and I heard that he got pretty close to doing this in the first Trump term and that he genuinely wants Venezuela's oil because they have a ton of reserves. And now in Trump 2.0, you have Marco Rubio in there serving in, like, seven different jobs, including archivist. And he came up in hardline Miami political circles where leftist governments in Latin America are the enemy. And he thinks that not only do you want to take out Maduro, but he thinks that you take out Maduro and that leads to the toppling of the Cuban government, and that's, like, his real passion project. So at the same time, all of them are getting lobbied by this woman, Maria Machado, who's a Nobel Prize winner, unlike Trump. And these, like, very, very brave but very conservative Venezuelan opposition leaders, business people, exiles who claim they're like, oh, we have a regime change plan. It's like, plug and play, 100 hours.

Jon Favreau (21:46)

Will figure out for you.

Tommy Vietor (21:47)

Yeah, it'll be seamless. They also, I think, seemingly are whispering to Trump that maybe Venezuela did. The ghost of Hugo Chavez did steal the last election, which we can get into. So that's the kind of context swirling in the background. I think Trump probably sees these polls and knows this is a bad idea. I'm positive he's hearing from the Bannon Tucker Carlson wing of the party. Like, yo, man, this is not what MAGA signed up for. Like, you overtly ran against regime change wars. Maybe it's a head fake to pressure Maduro into leaving voluntarily or at gunpoint, but voluntarily. There's purportedly a deal on the table where Maduro was like, I'll leave in two to three years, but we'll, like, cut this, like, you know, oil deal.

Jon Favreau (22:23)

With you, with Joe Biden, which is kind of hilarious.

Jon Lovett (22:26)

Like.

Tommy Vietor (22:27)

Like, Maduro's a guy. He stole the last election. He's a fucking authoritarian.

Jon Favreau (22:31)

But.

Tommy Vietor (22:31)

But trying to float I'll leave in three years deal to Trump is very funny. Invading is insane. This is a country that is, like, it's like a third bigger than Texas. There's, like, armed factions everywhere. There's, like, Yellen. There's, like, former terrorist groups on the border. They have real military hardware. Like, I hope to God we don't do this, but we have a lot of naval assets in the region right now.

Jon Favreau (22:54)

I love that in, when we were, when they were contemplating war in Iraq. We're going in there for the oil. Bush is going in there for the oil. Was seen as like sort of a leftist conspiracy. And now it's just out in the open that it's like, you know, Trump. Yeah, Trump might want to get the oil also.

Jon Lovett (23:07)

You know, there was a debate in Congress and then a vote, you know.

Tommy Vietor (23:12)

That, that the UN Got involved.

Jon Lovett (23:13)

There was a lot.

Jon Favreau (23:14)

Democrats in Congress can't even get briefed on, on the boat strikes.

Jon Lovett (23:18)

The, the, the, like the great sin of the Iraq war is that he got a bunch of Democrats to sign off on the authorization of the use of force. We went into that, we went into that as one, one beautiful united, stupid country in Congress, you know, and this is just, they're just doing it without Congress. They're doing it without any on the boat strikes. They're walking around with like kind of coming up with novel reasons to justify the military actions. It's like, it's unbelievable.

Jon Favreau (23:43)

Yeah, I think they have a fucking gall to criticize those Democrats for that video when they refuse to provide any legal justification whatsoever. Even one that you could say is phony or that you disagree with or that's flimsy. They're not even trying that. No legal justification for the strikes and no evidence whatsoever that these boats have been carrying drugs.

Tommy Vietor (24:03)

I think people will get prosecuted over this policy. I am, I hope it's Pete Hegseth. I hope it's not like lower level people like within the bowels of the US Military. I mean the guy in charge of Southern Command, the admiral in charge of Southern Command resigned over this policy because he thought it was unlawful. So look, they're just murdering people in boats. We don't know who they are. Some. One of the boats reportedly turned around. One seems to have stalled. You can see the video. They just like these snuff videos of hitting boats just sitting in the water. Like, and by the way, crazy even.

Jon Lovett (24:29)

Let's say they do know even that like we're just so far from a real justification. We're not allowed to just blow people up. Even if they are drug traffickers with drugs. Because what. That's not. What kind of self defense is that?

Jon Favreau (24:42)

It's not a thing. It's not a thing. That's why that you see all the. And that guy resigned also. There's like a bunch of lawyers resigned or were forced out around this a Bunch of them. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Jon Lovett (24:51)

Or they're just benefiting from the chaos of the fact that people are being shuffled, people are stepping down. Right. Like there's just, there's just jobs that aren't being currently filled by the kind of serious national security lawyers that would have been there in previous administration.

Tommy Vietor (25:02)

Yeah. And look, I know there's listeners like screaming at the phone right now being like, what about Obama and his drone policy against Al Qaeda and the way you guys stretch the AUMF within an inch of its life. Like, I, I agree with a lot of that criticism. Frankly, the response would be at least there was a, a vote to authorize the use of force against Al Qaeda and associated forces. Like that pretext hasn't even happened here. They're just designating them terrorist groups made up based on this like made up term, this made up cartel association that came from like Venezuelan journalists.

Jon Favreau (25:34)

Also, the Obama administration did not start just drone striking a bunch of boats and then saying, trust us, we think there were some terrorists in those boats and we're not going to tell you who they were or what, or what the evidence is or anything else.

Tommy Vietor (25:45)

Yeah, no, absolutely not. I mean the argument would be that, look, you don't, a lot of the drone strikes, like you don't know who is at a target. There are a lot of big mistakes that were made in Yemen in particular and that like, you know, by the end of the administration you're hitting targets in Somalia based on an AUM that was dealing with the 911 attacks. Right. I get all the criticism. I agree with a lot of it. But like, just want to be clear that this is a new, different and even more absurd thing.

Jon Favreau (26:12)

Yeah. And before we move on from this, we're going to war maybe because Venezuela rigged the 2020 election.

Tommy Vietor (26:18)

Yeah, you heard it here first.

Jon Favreau (26:19)

Ghost of Hugo Chavez kind of thing. This is the real thing that Trump believes now, apparently. I guess he's always believed it, but now it's, it's, it's, it's resurfacing.

Tommy Vietor (26:27)

I've heard that Maria Machado is kind of whispering this to him. I don't know that for sure. I've heard it from people who are like experts in this policy world. It's insane.

Jon Favreau (26:35)

So stupid. So stupid. Trump and Rubio are still dealing with another war they promised to end before starting this new one. American and Ukrainian negotiators met in Geneva over the weekend to revise a Trump brokered peace plan so favorable to Russia that at least one Republican senator thought the US didn't even draft it. Those talks yielded a, quote, refined peace framework that was more acceptable to Ukraine, but we still don't really know what the prospects are. The EU put out its own counterproposal to the Trump plan, which the Kremlin said on Monday is completely unconstructive and does not work for them. I was even confused trying to figure this all out about the flurry of news around this and these negotiations and the plan over the weekend. Tommy, can you explain what happened and what's in the Trump plan, as far as we know?

Tommy Vietor (27:17)

Yeah, I mean, that Mike Rounds statement was very confusing. It's like the origins of the plan seems to be up in the air based on this conversation with Rubio, who briefed a bunch of Republicans who then suggested that. I don't know, it's all very weird. Like, what the administration says is that this has been basically negotiated by Steve Wyckoff, Trump's golf buddy and kind of envoy for everything. And then this Russian guy named Kirill Dmitriev, who controls the Russian sovereign wealth fund. The specifics are unsurprising. If you followed the maximalist Russian demands over the years, it seems to have just leaked out. Like Wyckoff, again, these guys don't know how to use dm. I think Wyckoff tweeted something like, oh, did this come from K meaning Kirill? I think you're supposed to DM that. But he thinks the Russians leaked it. That timing is notable because Zelensky is dealing with this massive corruption scandal and the Russians are also getting really aggressive and they're firing drones. It's like Polish airspace. And all these other European countries, there's all these sabotage operations. So I think that's how it came out. And that seems to have fast forwarded a process that got us to these negotiations that were happening over the weekend in Geneva.

Jon Favreau (28:21)

Do we think we're in a better place now?

Tommy Vietor (28:24)

Well, there. I mean, the original 28 point plan was like just full surrender. It was basically, Ukraine gives over the Donbas region, they gave over Crimea. Carson and Zaporizhzhia are frozen along the battle lines and the Russians occupy the parts. The de facto recognition. The Russia gets what they're occupying. And then it capped the size of the Ukrainian military. It says Ukraine can't join NATO, but they could try to join the EU. It would force them to hold elections in 100 days. And then the security guarantee part of this is just fucking bullshit. Like there was this Axio story that's like, oh, there's a NATO like security guarantee that absolutely not, no NATO troops are allowed to be in Ukraine. That was sort of seen as like a tripwire force that you could have like in place in Ukraine. With the Russians invaded, it would immediately pull in Europe. That's off the table. The US Is not providing anything close to a NATO like guarantee. But the Russians get amnesty for crimes committed during the war. They get reintegrated into global economy in the G8. Sanctions get lifted, and then the US and Russia do some deal to cooperate on like energy and AI and rare earths and stuff. That 28 point has been now negotiated like 19 points and then the rest goes to the leaders. But so I think it's getting a little better, but it's not good.

Jon Favreau (29:33)

It feels like also it could get better to the point where then Putin decides no, now it's too good. And it seems like it's in his interest to just continue dragging this out.

Tommy Vietor (29:43)

Yeah, I mean, either he continues taking territory or he gets a deal.

Jon Favreau (29:47)

Love it. On Twitter this morning, JD Vance weighed in, as is always helpful, where he had this long tweet taking a bunch of potshots at fellow Republicans who don't like the White House's plan. And he ridiculed their, quote, passion for Ukraine as, quote, bonkers. What's your sense of the politics for the White House and the Republican Party here?

Jon Lovett (30:09)

I do always appreciate when J.D. vance directs that fucking patronizing, smug tone at Republicans. So they just get a little whiff of it. You know, look, this is an issue that divides Republicans and they have a lot of those these days. And I don't think the politics of this are very good for them. Mitch McConnell put out a statement about this and he made this point at the end of it that I thought was, I think, relevant. He said something to the effect of the United States is not neutral in these negotiations and we should not pretend otherwise. Which is wishful in two ways. One, he doesn't want America to be neutral, but really what he wants is us to be less biased toward Russia. Right. He continues to operate in the fantasy that America is really actually still maintaining what he and the other kind of old school, establishment, neocon style Republicans believe, which is obviously seeing the invasion of Ukraine by Russia as a dangerous act that if allowed to be successful, bodes terribly for Taiwan, the rest of Europe, the free world. But that's obviously not where Trump and Witkoff are. Witkoff gave yet another interview. I think this was with Carlson, talking about how much he likes Putin and doesn't see him As a bad guy. Whatever the reality of what they believe is their posture, they come across as being so guileless in dealing with Putin. And the idea that you're going to attack Republicans for being obsessed with this issue, for pointing that out, I don't think is particularly smart.

Tommy Vietor (31:42)

It's also just interesting. Like, look, this is just another peace deal, so called peace deal, where Trump's version of getting a peace deal done is just the stronger side gets everything and the weaker side gets told to take it at gunpoint. I mean, that's what happened in Gaza too. It's also just worth pointing out that like the US and the Russians are like cutting this deal bilaterally and then presenting it to the Ukrainians and others. Conversations happening as the rest of the world is in South Africa at the G20, which we are boycotting and the COP climate forum just wraps up in Brazil, which we also boycotted. So it's like the degree to which we have just taken ourselves out of the traditional everything, forums and structures, that would solve an issue like this is kind of, it is remarkable and unnerving.

Jon Favreau (32:27)

And I think it's just, I mean, from J.D. vance's tweet, it's, we shouldn't have to solve things like this and let's let the stronger power win and because it doesn't matter to us. And if they, if Russia comes for us, well, we're strong too, so we can deal with that then. But none of that, that's basically the, the thinking, which is right, except very, very great powers era.

Jon Lovett (32:47)

But none of it makes sense. Like you have that you have the envoys, you are negotiating the deal. It's not, but I don't know what it means for whatever passion he's claiming people have. It doesn't justify negotiating a deal that is more favorable to Russia. First of all, it's not clear that that ends this war any sooner because the Ukrainians are not going to go along with a deal like that. And that won't necessarily end the fighting. And by the way, anything, any deal that doesn't provide any kind of security guarantees. Like what? Why?

Tommy Vietor (33:21)

It's just.

Jon Lovett (33:23)

Why do you think Russia is so concerned about having NATO troops in Ukraine? Why would they, if they want a deal, why would they care? And they care because this is a pretext to whatever, gain some leverage, gain entry to the global economy and then just wait a couple years and assume America, like a goldfish, moves on and then do it all over again.

Tommy Vietor (33:42)

That. Right. It's like the next this sort of, this tells Ukraine in practice you're no longer a fully sovereign country. Like we, the US and Russia get to tell you when to have an election. We get to tell you the size of your military, we get to tell you if you can join NATO. And then it makes Ukraine a sitting duck if, if Putin wants to take bite off another chunk in a year or two. But also what happens if the Russians shift some of these troops and they just sit them outside a Baltic country and all of a sudden a NATO country is about to get invaded. I mean, look, the Russians are firing drones into Poland on the regular. The Poles just accuse them of blowing up a rail line well used to resupply the Ukrainians.

Jon Favreau (34:16)

Fast forward to two years when JD Vance is tweeting. The passion from the beltway GOP for Naito is just this. It disgusts me. That was the end of his tweet. This disgusts me. Show some passion for your own country.

Jon Lovett (34:28)

It's the other part too is like, like Naito is a promise. Right. Does anyone believe that Donald Trump is going to stand behind NATO? The only like what is actually holding Naito together is the fact that I do think there is credibility in Europe's now claim to defend its fellow members. But I don't know that anyone could believe Donald Trump, Steve Witkoff and J.D. vance would have the passion for defending our allies.

Jon Favreau (34:52)

Yeah, that's probably why they're shitting bricks in Taiwan too.

Tommy Vietor (34:54)

Yeah, yeah. At one point in this 28 point plan, I think there's a reference to the US like mediating talks between the Russia and NATO and it's like, wait, we, we are NATO. What are you talking about? We're not some like outside observer here. This kind of.

Jon Lovett (35:06)

Anyway, thankfully those bricks are some of the most sophisticated bricks on planet Earth. And as long as I keep shitting those bricks. You know what I'm saying?

Jon Favreau (35:14)

Yes, I do.

Jon Lovett (35:23)

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Jon Favreau (37:03)

The biggest news on the continued fracturing of the MAGA coalition came rather suddenly on Friday night when Marjorie Taylor Taylor Greene posted this video along with a letter of resignation from Congress.

Congresswoman Summer Lee (37:13)

Loyalty should be a two way street. Standing up for American women who were raped at 14 years old, trafficked and used by rich, powerful men should not result in me being called a traitor and threatened by the President of the United States. I do not want my sweet district to have to endure a hurtful and hateful primary against me by the President that we all fought for, only to fight and win my election. While Republicans will likely lose the midterms, I refuse to be a battered wife hoping it all goes away and gets better.

Jon Favreau (37:48)

So Trump responded on Saturday by calling MTG a quote, nice person, telling NBC that she needs to, quote, take a little rest. And then he went back to bashing her on Truth Social as a, quote, lowlife and once again called her Marjorie Trader Brown. Now this is a combination of his two nicknames. First it was Marjorie Taylor Brown because Brown is rotting and Green is not and she's rotted.

Tommy Vietor (38:13)

What?

Jon Favreau (38:14)

Yeah, that was the first swing and it was not a good one. So then he said, then he realized, oh, Trader was right there. So now then he called her Marjorie Traitor Green. But now he's decided to bring both together, which is why we have Marjorie Traitor Brown.

Jon Lovett (38:25)

It's a trunk for sure.

Jon Favreau (38:26)

He's better than the pimp metaphor, I guess.

Jon Lovett (38:28)

Yeah. Yeah, that's good to bet. Well, yeah, that's true.

Jon Favreau (38:30)

Why do you guys think she did it? What was it? What was your reaction when you saw this?

Jon Lovett (38:35)

So, first of all, I'll just be honest. I was like, oh, no. Which I can't believe. Like, just my first.

Tommy Vietor (38:43)

Marjorie, no.

Jon Lovett (38:44)

So here's what I'm struggling with.

Jon Favreau (38:46)

Marjorie, no.

Jon Lovett (38:48)

Like, take it at face value. You could have said everything she says in this video or version of it while saying, and so I will not be seeking a new term. Right. What I'm struggling with the logic of is the country is in dire straits. We need people who are willing to fight, no fear or favor. So I'm leaving early. I'm gonna leave my seat open. And it's especially strange. And we'll talk more about sort of the broader problems inside of the Republican caucus in the House right now. But. But we're about to enter a period where she would have probably more power inside of Congress than she could ever hope or anyone at her level in Congress could ever hope to have in a normal period. So that's what I find strange about it, even if you take what she's saying at face value.

Jon Favreau (39:36)

What do you think?

Tommy Vietor (39:37)

Yeah, no, I had a similar reaction. I was like, there's something kind of sad about Marjorie Taylor Greene deciding she can't be the world's biggest Trump supporter, but also want the Epstein files released and not think it's a great idea to just, like, funnel arms overseas. And that was kind of like my takeaway. And. And I guess, like, I guess being in Congress just really sucks. Unless you're one of, like, four people, because they make all the decisions. All the decisions get foisted upon you. Even the committee chairs have no power. They just get jammed by the White House and they're told to grin and bear it. And then I think. I do think the security threats are quite real, especially post Charlie Kirk. Like, I heard from somebody that MTG's kids were getting harassed in a very unsettling way. And, like, she seems genuinely disillusioned with Trump. She was not ready to eat for him. If there's a Democratic Congress. Like her speech where she said, I refuse to be a battered wife and hope it all goes away and gets better. Like, that was in a pretty jarring comparison. I also believed her when she said she believes in term limits and doesn't think Congress should be, quote, a lifelong career or an assisted living facility. I found myself applauding that line, too. And then, like, the Machiavellian take on it is she is basically quitting to say, well, I'm actually even more America first than. Than he is right now. And she's like, when people figure out the statement is rigged, I'll be there to rebuild. I wasn't totally sure what that meant. So as long as she doesn't attack Trump directly, she focuses on issues, maybe she thinks she's got more power and flexibility from the outside because, like, everybody hates Congress. And she could be like, I hate it so much, I quit.

Jon Favreau (41:07)

Yeah. I think people, most people believe, understandably so, that motivating almost every politician is like a drive for power and attention. And I think it's very possible that she broke with Trump. She started getting some shit. She broke again, and she started getting threats. And maybe she just thought, I don't care if I have more power the next year in Congress. I don't care that I have more months on my term. I just want out. And I don't want to deal with this, and I don't want to deal with the public eye, and I just want to. That's it. And in some of the reporting, I noticed that some people close to her said, this is not a shtick. She's not running, she's out of politics, she's stepping away. She's done. And maybe it was just too much for her. And maybe there's like, no explanation deeper than that. Maybe not, but it's one possibility. Yeah.

Jon Lovett (42:02)

I mean, who knows? Right now, right now, like, I really was like, I'm approach this cynically. And I was like, there's got. There's just really no hints anywhere about what she would do. She said she's not running for president. She said she wouldn't run for Senate, she's not running for governor. And then in the. She put out a longer post when she was tamping down the suggestion she was gonna run for president. She said, the fact that I'd have to go through all that but would be totally blocked from truly fixing anything. Exactly why I would never do it. And it's a very defeatist. It's just not the statement a politician normally means.

Jon Favreau (42:36)

Cynicism won.

Jon Lovett (42:37)

Yeah. But I did come away at the end, and I thought, all right, I have no idea. I don't know Marjorie Taylor Greene's mind. She's surprised me at every turn, but it is. What I thought when I got to the end of it is like, maybe she's not running for something, but there is a kind of.

Jon Favreau (42:51)

She's running from something.

Jon Lovett (42:53)

Well, for sure, for sure. But I did come away with it thinking this is sort of what you say if you are thinking about starting some kind of like a media company or some kind of a public facing anti establishment, not pro Trump, but MAGA post Trump something. She got that boyfriend who's gonna have a tougher time asking questions in the Oval Office than he used to get me. Yeah, exactly, exactly. They got the shirtless pics going and so many. So I don't know. That was what I said. Maybe this is like a. The net. We'll see her and look, you'd either be the hero or you live long enough to become a podcast host. You know what I'm saying? And so I do think there's, you know what happens.

Jon Favreau (43:37)

It's like maybe, maybe genuinely in her mind right now, she's thinking, I'm done for good. Then you get home to Georgia and you're in your house and you're really quiet.

Jon Lovett (43:46)

Pretty quiet.

Jon Favreau (43:46)

It's pretty quiet.

Tommy Vietor (43:47)

Takes piling up and.

Jon Lovett (43:49)

Takes piling up by the, by the.

Jon Favreau (43:50)

Front door, nowhere to put up and you're like, maybe I could do something to get back into this. Or maybe not.

Jon Lovett (43:57)

But the other part of this that's so strange though is all of the, like the going hard on Epstein. That all fits, right? She did have a kind of like, eat, pray, love, kindness turn as well at the end.

Tommy Vietor (44:08)

Yeah. Post Charlie Kirk.

Jon Lovett (44:09)

And then from that to go, just I'm out. Like, that's why I just feel like, I don't know, the whole thing is still the truth. Always the truth. Makes sense. So far, I don't think this entirely makes sense.

Jon Favreau (44:19)

It was not lost on anyone that MTG's announcement came just hours after Trump appeared in the Oval with Zohra and Mamdani and couldn't stop gushing over the guy he'd previously been calling a communist lunatic. We have a longer reaction to the Trump Mamdani meeting on Friday that you can check out on the pod save America YouTube channel. But seeing the reaction from MAGA world since then has been interesting to say the least. The Fox News chyrons quickly switched from showdown with socialism to the one I saw today was just Trump and Mamdani vow to work on affordability. It's like, wow, this is different. But quite a few MAGA politicians and influencers weren't as willing to go along with Trump's change of heart. Everyone from Elise Stefanik, who was Thrown right under the bus by Trump. So good in the meeting. To Laura Loomer, to Nick Fuentes, who said the friendly meeting is proof that Trump and MAGA are hypocrites who, quote, don't believe anything they're peddling. What have you guys made of the reaction to the meeting?

Tommy Vietor (45:15)

I mean, I just continue to be amazed by how positive it was. And the reaction was generally. I mean, I think Zoran Mandani got huge credit for it. I did see some, like, super, super lefty types attacking him for, I guess, capitulating and not taking to the streets and protesting Trump. Like, I think that probably speaks to why Zoran Mandani is in elected office now and has the capacity to do things to help people and why some others to his left are not. But I don't know. I hope Trump hope gets hammered for this. I do like if it adds to the MAGA divide. I think he's mostly just a guy who loves love and loves the press and was happy with that combo. You know, loves praise.

Jon Favreau (45:52)

Yeah, he does. Yeah. For sure.

Tommy Vietor (45:53)

Or felching.

Jon Lovett (45:54)

For sure.

Tommy Vietor (45:55)

For sure.

Jon Lovett (45:55)

Sort of political felching. The. I'm sorry I said that. The.

Tommy Vietor (45:59)

I started in my bed.

Jon Lovett (46:01)

I think, like, if the one, the one thing that I think will linger on his side is they really were gonna make Mamdani the villain or one of the villains in the midterms, and I think they can still do that. Like, there's a. Oh, no. Trump's defang the attack and I think it makes it a less potent attack, but I think they can still attack Democrats as socialists. They've never run out of ink to do that. But if you're like a House Republican and you already feel as though you're on edge, you're maybe gonna lose your job, you're worried about the upcoming healthcare votes. You're. You're like, you're just, you're just feeling like, put upon and unloved. And then you turn on the television, there's Donald Trump chumming it up with the person that you all thought was going to be public enemy number one. It's got to add insult to injury, big time.

Jon Favreau (46:47)

I'm sure they're not happy.

Jon Lovett (46:48)

No.

Jon Favreau (46:49)

Which is nice. At least Stefanik was. I think she posted like, well, we're just going to have to disagree on this one because he's still a jihadist.

Jon Lovett (46:56)

Right? Right. Yeah. And that's also just the whole thing is all so impressive. Embarrassing. Right? Because it's like Elise Stefanik put on the clown suit. Because Trump loves clowns. And he's like, I want to see these clowns dance around.

Jon Favreau (47:10)

And now she's a sad clown, right?

Jon Lovett (47:12)

Well, yeah, sure. But then. But then it's like he, like, is in the Oval Office being like, I don't like clowns anymore. I like this guy. And she's like, what?

Tommy Vietor (47:20)

It's like, sucks. Also, like, fuck you, Elise Stefanik. Like, you made your cause, right? Going after colleges for not combating anti Semitism. And then you call this man a jihadist, which is the most, like, blatant, disgusting form of Islamophobia I've heard in a long time. So you're a terrible person. You were a moderate who decided to go all in on maga. Trump doesn't like you. The moderates don't like you anymore. I can't wait to watch you lose your election. You got played by Trump, you got played by Zoron. Take your bigoted somewhere else. You suck.

Jon Favreau (47:52)

Yeah, nice. Back to the Kennedy School for you, Elise Stefanik. Enjoy your semester there.

Jon Lovett (48:00)

Fuck you.

Tommy Vietor (48:01)

You get McKinsey, you get the Kissinger, blah, blah, blah, professorship or something.

Jon Favreau (48:06)

Yeah. So more serious frustration with Trump in the White House is brewing in Congress as well. On Monday, Punchbowl quoted a very riled up, unnamed senior House Republican. Oh, no. Who, and this is in light of the MTG stuff, who said that, quote, nearly all House Republicans are, quote, more upset than ever with the White House and Mike Johnson and essentially called the White House team arrogant. Imagine that. That same senior House Republican also hinted that, quote, more explosive early resignations are coming, calling the situation a tinderbox. Hard to be. Hard to not be gleeful reading that. But how real do you think this is? How much of an impact could it have on Trump's agenda and or the midterms next year? It is funny that we've waited till now to speak out against the fact that the White House has been treating Republicans in Congress like they are White House staffers.

Jon Lovett (48:59)

Well, yeah, probably not helpful. These quotes where Trump says that the Congress doesn't really matter anymore now that they did the one beautiful bill that he rules Congress with an iron fist. He had Steve Bannon referring to it as the Duma. So the Current majority is 219, 213. Marjorie leaves. It's 218. 213. Three special elections coming up. You have Cheryl seat, you have Turner seat. Abbott held that one open for the better part of a year so that we wouldn't get one more Tennessee. It's hopeful. Let's say we lose it, hope we win it, could win it. It's gonna be hard. Let's say we lose it. You're at 219, 215. That means they can only lose two people, right? That goes from a House that could pass something like the big beautiful bill that a House that couldn't. If there really are other potential retirements, plural. If you have two more retirements, you're 2:17 to 15. That means Thomas Massie personally decides, yes, anything that the Republicans can do in Congress without Democrats, Donald Trump, we're going to talk about the health care proposal, the inconceivable that that could pass without Democratic votes. So all of this means that in the next year, Democrats just have more power. And by the way, the other tension here is this quote, right? Like this is information, right? Like maybe a bunch of House Republicans are talking to each other about whether or not they're going to leave early. But now all House Republicans know that all House Republicans saw that a bunch of them are talking to Jake Sherman about leaving early. Nobody wants to be the guy that hands the gavel to Hakeem Jeffries. So get it. Like, this is like, I don't know what Mike Johnson, his quiz Thanksgiving is fucked. Because if you're thinking about retiring early, you don't want to wait because all of a sudden, you don't want to be the last one out before you're the one that has to decide to hand the gavel over to the Democrats or go to split committee. So it's. I don't get too excited about what could happen with these numbers, but let's just say I could write a nice poem to Olivia Nutzi about it.

Jon Favreau (50:48)

This sort of proves Trump right about one thing, which is you show just a little bit of weakness, you lose just one issue, one vote, one off year election, and the whole fucking thing can start crumbling down because they, for how long now have all these Republicans basically acceded to the fact that they were going to just be a satellite office of the White House? And Mike Johnson did not think that his obligation was to his caucus. He thought it was to keep Donald Trump happy no matter what. Even when he didn't agree with them, even when you could tell he didn't enjoy lying for him, but he just did it because he knew he needed to keep Trump happy. And most of the. And all the Republicans went along with them. And now that they're starting to, you know, see some weakness here and see the poll numbers now, they're all like, oh, wait a Minute. Maybe. Maybe we should not have hitched our entire future to this guy who was leaving in 2028.

Jon Lovett (51:40)

Yeah, well, this is look like any kind of, like, effort to have control. It looks stronger than it is. But if your politics requires you never being weak in a democracy, even one that is as flawed and broken, as slipping. Slipping away as ours, it's brittle. It's brittle. And the whole thing can fall down around you because these are just human beings. They didn't sign on to be vassals for Donald Trump. And they may do it for the. I mean, they did it. They did it. They're gonna do it. Right. They're political creatures and they have egos and they have, like, incentives, but they're still people.

Jon Favreau (52:15)

It is even in the most. If you take the most cynical view. Right. Is it better now to be a Republican politician when you could also just be a MAGA influencer? Like, I think you could make more money as a mega influencer. You could definitely. You get more attention. So, like, what is the. What is the benefit of being in Congress?

Jon Lovett (52:35)

A lot of these guys, you go a couple steps down the call sheet, they don't have the. They don't have the time. They can't do it. They can't do it.

Tommy Vietor (52:41)

That's fair. Yeah, but I mean, like, if being in Congress sucks now, wait till you're in the minority and you can't get anything done and you're just fundraising and, like, defending impeachment. I mean, MTG talked about, like, having to defend another Trump impeachment. She's right. That'll almost certainly happen. But, yeah, I mean, Speaker Johnson, the knives are out for that guy. And it's fun to watch. I mean, he thought that he and Trump had the covenant knives settings at the same level. It turns out Trump had him off from, you know, 5:00pm until morning.

Jon Favreau (53:06)

Yeah, and I'm sure once done his own thing, I'm sure once he doesn't have the speaker role anymore, Trump will treat him just like he treats Kevin McCarthy. Those two have never been closer.

Jon Lovett (53:14)

Now picturing Mike Johnson showing up on Monday with everybody's work like, I brought donuts and it's pizza. Bringing back pizza Wednesdays, pajama Fridays, trust falls.

Tommy Vietor (53:24)

Hawaiian shirt Fridays.

Jon Favreau (53:25)

On the subject of Republican defections, the party is still figuring out how to handle the health care premium hikes that are about to hit 20 million Americans on January 1st. This is, of course, because the Affordable Care act subsidies are set to expire after Trump and Republicans in Congress refuse to work with Democrats to extend them. But there was news over the weekend that Trump was preparing to release his own plan this week which would reportedly be a two year extension of the subsidies with new income based limits on who would qualify and a minimum premium payment required for everyone. The White House apparently forgot to consult with Republicans in Congress as they are want to do. And now the entire proposal is on hold because of reactions like this from an anonymous House Republican who told Ms. Now you know it's bad if they're going to Ms. Now that's part of.

Tommy Vietor (54:11)

This and made me wonder.

Jon Favreau (54:13)

And the quote from the anonymous House Republican is I wasn't expecting the proposal to be Obamacare light, absolutely not supportive of extending ACA subsidies and there's all this reporting that they did. The White House did pull back the proposal from this week because there was so much of a backlash among Republicans in Congress.

Jon Lovett (54:32)

Too bad bitches. This you've anchored the negotiation.

Jon Favreau (54:36)

What do you guys think of the proposal itself?

Tommy Vietor (54:39)

I mean, I think my big takeaway is I'll believe it when I see it. I mean we've been getting a plan to repeal and replace since 2015. I think in 2020 he started giving us the two week countdown and here we are, 2025. I guess it's good that he knows it's a political disaster. I would love to see him extend the ACA premiums. I do think it's the things they're focused on are so weird. Like they're worried about this ghost premium issues. So they're trying to eliminate basically zero cost premiums because they think that they'll root out fraud if you make people pay like five bucks a month or something, if there's broker fraud or something, they're really worried about go after the brokers. I don't totally understand this obsession, but I just, I don't know how you get this for Congress. I just, I don't get it.

Jon Lovett (55:16)

Yeah, so I saw the, the, the, the, the details that had leaked of what they were proposing and then I kind of went looking around because it was sort of like seemed better than what it should be, to be honest. It's not Obamacare Lite, whatever that means. It is a reminder that Donald Trump has put himself in a terrible political situation because rather than proposing while the subsidies were in place, a Republican reform that people could have gotten behind, it is now undoing the elimination of the subsidies. So it changes the politics of it for him. But I think the fact that you have a bunch of Republicans in the House saying that this is not something they want to be a part of. And you have Gene Shaheen saying this is a great jumping off point, I think gives you a sense of what the politics are. So some House Democrats, I think rightfully, for the purposes of negotiation, being like, this is fucking disgusting and we can't. We got. But. But in the grand scheme of things, like, had this been what came out of, say, the shutdown, we would have described that as an incredible victory.

Tommy Vietor (56:13)

Yeah, that's true.

Jon Favreau (56:13)

Yeah. So the first thing to be aware of is that it is only dealing with the enhanced subsidies. Right. And so it's not touching any of the rest of the Affordable Care act, which is important to mention because Trump and other Republicans seem to suggest at various points in the last couple of weeks that maybe they were going to do a whole new plan or a whole replacement plan or whatever. So it's just the extended subsidies. And what they would do is if you did that minimum premium payment, there's an estimate from, I think Kaiser that a million fewer people could be enrolled in Obamacare. So a million people could lose their health insurance, which is obviously not great. It is much better than the 20 million people who would get hit with premium hikes.

Jon Lovett (56:52)

And by the way, that's an estimate based on people who would be willing to pay exactly the premium. The detail matters. How big of a monthly premium is this? If it's a small amount, people might go for it, etc.

Jon Favreau (57:01)

And if you say now that people over 700% of the poverty line can't, aren't eligible for the subsidies, well, that sounds like 700 sounds like a big number. But that's like you're getting to like 55, 60 thousand dollars a year. And so if you're a family, you're making 75, $80,000 a year and now you're not getting the extended subsidies. Like, like that hurts them too. So it's not. I would not say it's great. But if faced with a choice between that plan and nothing, like, I still think you'd want that plan. But also to your point, Lovett, I can't imagine it seems. It's bad, but it seems too good for especially House Republicans to get behind it.

Jon Lovett (57:42)

Here's what I don't understand. I can see something like this getting through the Senate, and I think this does feel like a Senate deal that would they try to jam the House with. Yeah, I think you would lose some House Republicans. And as we just discussed, they don't have a lot of room for error. So then the only way it could pass would be with Democratic votes. I think you would get Democrats that would vote for a plan like this. I mean, it is a two year extension that kicks the issue down the road ostensibly so that they can finally unveil their big plan. But we all, we know no such plan exists. So really what this does is create a new baseline for future extensions. And I do think it's one that Democrats would live with and a great given, given that we have control over. No houses of Congress would speak to A, how well Democrats did in making health care the issue and B, just how bereft of ideas Republicans have been on healthcare because they're just trying to figure it out now. And like one of the ideas in there is to have some money go into health savings accounts. Okay. Right. Like they just, when push comes to shove, they're either gonna do something that a bunch of right wingers don't like or they're gonna do something fucking heinous that the country won't like. And so they've been stuck for a long time.

Jon Favreau (58:50)

All right, before we get to my interview with Summer Lee, we're gonna take a quick dumpster dive into the tabloid drama involving RFK Jr and his alleged affair with political journalist Olivia Nuzi, who's already released some excerpts from her forthcoming memoir, American Canto, about the whole thing. And the upcoming release of the memoir has then prompted Newsy's ex fiance, political journalist Ryan Lizza, to tell his side of the story in a multi part series on his new substack. The first installment from Lizza accused Newsy in a highly cinematic twist at the end of the Post, of also having an affair with former South Carolina Governor Mark Sanford when he was running in the primary back in 2020 against Donald Trump. The second installment, which dropped on Saturday, fast forwards to 2024 when Lizza, he doesn't say how, discovered erotic poetry that Kennedy had sent Newsy. Where would you guys like to begin? And how graphic shall we get?

Tommy Vietor (59:50)

I mean, we've been making felching jokes all day, so go for it. Go all in. Let's go.

Jon Favreau (59:54)

Yeah. The poem Lizza says that the poems, many too explicit to print, changed everything. And then in parentheses says, thanks to Bobby, I am now aware of something called felching. This is from now I'm quoting from the New York Post story about felching. Of course there was one. Felching is the term used for when one sexual partner sucks semen out of another partner's anus or vagina following unprotected Penetrative sex, according to the National Institute of health, which RFK Jr leads as part of his top role at HHS. I just loved the gilding the lily there in the Post story about how we had to connect then the NIH definition to hhs.

Jon Lovett (60:33)

Hey, here's a question. How did Doge not get whatever website defines felching for the government? Why is that?

Jon Favreau (60:40)

Save some pennies on that one.

Jon Lovett (60:42)

I feel like that is something we could have left to the private sector.

Tommy Vietor (60:46)

This whole thing, man, it's just so rare to see two people both lean into a PR disaster.

Jon Lovett (60:52)

You know what I mean?

Tommy Vietor (60:53)

Usually the concept of mutually assured destruction restrains both sides. They've taken a very different it's tact. There's been some interesting think pieces about how the kind of the modern media world incentivizes you to go all in and put it all out there and that gets you money and that gets you notoriety. But wow, it's been tough. Tough read.

Jon Lovett (61:14)

First of all, I just want to say I am a new subscriber to Ryan Liz's substack and I'm proud to give him the $10 a month.

Jon Favreau (61:21)

Really?

Jon Lovett (61:21)

I think he's earned it. I think he's doing incredible work. That is the Honestly, in the history of substack, I'm curious what has had more conversion than these two posts then.

Jon Favreau (61:33)

Yeah, from edition one to the felching edition.

Jon Lovett (61:35)

Just the like the saying, like what I'm about to share with all of you is so embarrassing, but I'm doing it for the sake of journalism. By the way, she did this with Mark Sanford Fur. Click here to subscribe like yeah. Yes, Ryan, I am in. Ryan. This is what it's for. Thank you for doing substack. What a. Yeah, I mean I guess I could subscribe to message box and find out what the polls mean.

Tommy Vietor (62:02)

I gotta say one thing I learned from all of this is that editors are very important. These are two individuals who are supposed to be some of the best writers.

Jon Favreau (62:11)

Of their generation who have written some pretty excellent stuff in the past.

Tommy Vietor (62:15)

Good things. But I think great editors prevent extended bamboo metaphors. They probably prevent self immolation. They probably prevent annoyingly referring to the person you're talking about as the politician when we all know the person's name was Robert F. Kennedy Jr. Yeah, I.

Jon Lovett (62:31)

Would like to separate. I think these are two distinct. Like I feel as though like the Lizza post are making lemonade. You know, substack lemonade. Because look, I don't but the American canto I don't know. First of all, what is a canto? It's a poem of some kind. I don't know what that is.

Tommy Vietor (62:51)

It's a word British people can say.

Jon Favreau (62:53)

But we.

Jon Lovett (62:56)

But the, the, like, the. The excerpts of the. The NY book are very indulgent and a bit overwritten and kind of. Kind of, sort of lyrical. But then you're like, wait, what is this about? This is about fucking rfk. What are we talking about? We're talking about fucking rfk.

Jon Favreau (63:10)

I just.

Jon Lovett (63:10)

I feel like I don't want to slut shame anybody.

Jon Favreau (63:14)

I feel like RFK Jr is getting off here in a way.

Jon Lovett (63:17)

Yeah, that's right.

Jon Favreau (63:18)

Yeah.

Tommy Vietor (63:19)

Oh, you mean politically.

Jon Favreau (63:20)

Yeah, metaphorically. Yeah, in a way that like. Like he is the fucking Health and Human Services secretary. Like, as much as everyone wants to talk about Ryan and Olivia, you know, it doesn't really matter all that much. Right. Like, that is their private lives and they can. I realize that Ryan has a substack and Olivia has now been hired by Vanity Fair, who's now looking into all of these surprising revelations that Lizza has aired. Fine media story, I guess. But like. Yep, but like RFK Jr sitting at HHS telling us that the vaccines cause autism, as he's writing poems about felching.

Jon Lovett (63:54)

The other thing too is, first of all, everyone's entitled to a private life, including secretaries of Health and human services. But he has issued some pretty strong denials that seem to be contradicted. But what. By what we're learning. Because I don't know whether or not.

Jon Favreau (64:08)

Does seem like he has a troubled past with the truth, for sure.

Jon Lovett (64:12)

Because it's not just that they've asserted that there was no sexual relationship. Like, he made, like, kind of of went even further to be like, I don't even know this person. I'm paraphrasing.

Tommy Vietor (64:20)

He lied.

Jon Lovett (64:21)

He pretty clearly lied about all this.

Tommy Vietor (64:23)

Yeah, look, I agree. He's the bigger issue, him being a liar. And there was an incredible contrast over the weekend of all of this swirling around. And then Tatiana Schlossberg, his relative, was his sister.

Jon Favreau (64:35)

It's his niece.

Tommy Vietor (64:36)

Niece, sorry. Wrote this beautiful piece, the New Yorker, that everyone should read about her battle with leukemia that got into the way decisions he is making at HHS will make it harder for her to get treatment, will make it harder to find cures in the future. It's like, beautifully done and brilliant. I do think.

Jon Favreau (64:50)

Sorry, it may be her cousin. It's her cousin because Caroline's cousin is rfk.

Tommy Vietor (64:55)

Either way, just Read it. It's excellent. I do think there were some ethical questions around Olivia's relationship with Robert F. Kennedy that we're not really grappled with. Like the New York Times style section piece about her book just kind of yada yada right past that and didn't really touch it. I was like, it feels like this actually is kind of significant question if you are dating the person you're covering. And then, according to Ryan Lizzo, writing them strategy memos for their campaign and providing advice.

Jon Favreau (65:23)

And he has also accused her in the second substack of catch and kill operations on his behalf, that she was engaged in catch and kill operations on RFK JR's behalf and other journalistic transgressions that have still not been disclosed. In addition to the strategy memos thing.

Jon Lovett (65:39)

How are we not subscribing to this fucking thing? Yes. 9.99. Ryan Lizza. There you go.

Jon Favreau (65:45)

And then she said to Lizza, apparently, allegedly, that she was afraid if anyone found out about their affair, that Bobby would kill her.

Tommy Vietor (65:53)

Oh, yeah, that's a big deal.

Jon Lovett (65:56)

Well, because that's the cliffhanger for the next installment.

Jon Favreau (65:59)

Again, we're all just. The felching has taken up a lot of.

Tommy Vietor (66:02)

Yeah. A lot of space in my brain. Yeah. Also, Mark Sanford still exists. I hadn't thought about him in a while.

Jon Favreau (66:08)

Keith Olbermann fucking inserted himself into this whole story, too.

Jon Lovett (66:12)

I didn't even see the Keith Olman posting. I didn't get to the. I didn't see the Keith.

Jon Favreau (66:15)

Oh, my God, he was post. Cause in there, he dated Olivia at some point. And so Ryan writes about that. And of course, Olbermann jumps in on the Twitters. But then he also, you know, gives an interview to the New York Times, you know, talking more about it.

Jon Lovett (66:29)

Yes. Good. More.

Jon Favreau (66:31)

Yeah.

Jon Lovett (66:31)

This is also weird.

Tommy Vietor (66:32)

And then I just remembered Cheryl Hines.

Jon Favreau (66:35)

That weird interview with podcast sensation Katie.

Tommy Vietor (66:38)

Miller, Steve Miller's wife, where this kind of came up and she was attacking Olivia and defending Ralph Kennedy.

Jon Favreau (66:45)

All 11 viewers were horrified.

Tommy Vietor (66:46)

Yeah. And he just seems like an awful guy. Did you guys know that Geraldo Rivera wrote a memoir in 1991 with the title Exposing Myself that detailed all of his.

Jon Favreau (66:55)

Anything about exposing in there.

Tommy Vietor (66:57)

I got to read it now. Wow.

Jon Lovett (67:00)

I just, you know, it's nice to have a media story like. Like, the monoculture is dead. You know, it's nice to have something like this where it's like, yeah, ultimately this is the person in charge of, say, vaccine schedules, and that's a bummer. But other than that. The stakes feel kind of low, you know? Like, I. I don't know why I get to know all this stuff, but it's out there. I'm gonna read it.

Tommy Vietor (67:21)

Yeah, it's a lot.

Jon Lovett (67:22)

Relationships are hard.

Tommy Vietor (67:24)

They are.

Jon Lovett (67:24)

Relationships are hard.

Jon Favreau (67:26)

Especially now.

Jon Lovett (67:28)

Especially when.

Jon Favreau (67:29)

Do you think part three drops?

Jon Lovett (67:30)

I don't know. I don't know. Can you turn on my alarm? I will.

Jon Favreau (67:33)

Because you're a subscriber.

Jon Lovett (67:34)

I'll send you a gift.

Tommy Vietor (67:35)

Well, there were some. There were some Google Docs going around over the weekend. I'm sure you guys got sent those.

Jon Lovett (67:40)

I know. I don't believe in stealing content. I support creators like Ryan Lizza. I will say, though, I had a choice between a yearly subscription or monthly. And I was like, buddy, listen, I don't know where we're going to be after this fucking story's ending, but I don't know if I'm going to be paying you anymore. All right. Sorry, Ryan Liz, I think ultimately I'm glad you're telling your story, but a couple months from now, my pain Telos.

Tommy Vietor (68:04)

Was there, like a founding felcher option?

Jon Lovett (68:06)

Yeah, there was.

Tommy Vietor (68:07)

There was.

Jon Lovett (68:08)

You could.

Tommy Vietor (68:09)

Yes.

Jon Lovett (68:10)

You get access to. You get access to insider felching news before any of the rest of the community. Quarterly zooms with the Felching Advisory Board.

Jon Favreau (68:21)

This is.

Tommy Vietor (68:24)

We did this to ourselves.

Jon Favreau (68:25)

This is. This is who gives us health advice.

Tommy Vietor (68:28)

Yeah. It makes big decisions and hires and fires people and testifies for Congress.

Jon Favreau (68:32)

He's worried about all the lies to them. Yeah. All the impunities and all this. Like, forget about red 40. How about, you're fucking out there, Falchion?

Congresswoman Summer Lee (68:42)

Yeah.

Jon Lovett (68:42)

I also just like, what. What is the appeal this guy's throwing off RFK Jr. It's unbelievable.

Tommy Vietor (68:49)

Yeah. Yeah.

Jon Favreau (68:51)

I don't see it.

Tommy Vietor (68:52)

Is it the poetry?

Jon Favreau (68:54)

It's the poetry. Hopefully, we'll. Hopefully we'll find more of the poetry. Anyway, we'll do it. We'll do a live reading if it warrants it. Okay. When we get back from the break, you'll hear my conversation with.

Jon Lovett (69:02)

Who? Who's our conversation with?

Jon Favreau (69:05)

Poor Congresswoman Summer Lee, who just came here to talk about a very serious issue. ICE overreach in American cities. She was here in Los Angeles Monday for a field hearing with the Oversight Committee and Karen Bass and other LA officials. She's going to tell me all about that and lots more. But before we get to that, quick reminder that through November 30, we're offering 25% off annual subscriptions to Friend of the Pod. If you haven't spent all your money.

Jon Lovett (69:27)

On Telos, I have such an idea. Oh no, I got just. I'm not even going to do it now. I have an idea. Subscribe. Subscribe.

Jon Favreau (69:35)

Is Dan gonna do we gonna see that? Dan has done a substack live with Ryan.

Jon Lovett (69:41)

He should. He should.

Jon Favreau (69:42)

From a message box Telos crossover you get access to the ad free versions of this show Pod Save America and all your favorites. And our subscriber only shows like Polar Coaster and Terminally Online. And of course you'll be helping to support independent progressive media at a critical time. Head over to crooked.com friends now to subscrib.

Tommy Vietor (70:10)

Pod Save America is brought to you by Aura Frames. What's your favorite holiday tradition? I'm a big fan of Christmas Eve. I like sort of like the event before the event. Everyone's excited, a lot of anticipation.

Jon Lovett (70:22)

Go to the movies. Chinese people are together.

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Jon Lovett (71:08)

Yeah.

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Jon Lovett (71:40)

Terms and conditions apply as a contractor.

Congresswoman Summer Lee (71:43)

I don't pay for materials I don't use so why would I pay for stuff I don't need in my mobile plan? That's why my biz plan from Verizon Business is so perfect.

Jon Lovett (71:51)

Now I can choose exactly what I.

Congresswoman Summer Lee (71:53)

Want and I only pay for what.

Jon Favreau (71:55)

I need right now with my biz plan. Get our best price as low as $25 a line. Visit verizon.combusiness to get started today. New lines only. Price per month with five plus lines includes auto pay and paper free billing and promotional discount. Taxes, fees, economic adjustment charge applicable. Add ons prices and terms apply. Guarantee applies to base monthly rate and stated discounts only. Add on prices Additional offers in 01-05-2026 Congresswoman Summer Lee, welcome to the pod.

Congresswoman Summer Lee (72:17)

Oh, so excited. Thanks for having me.

Jon Favreau (72:18)

Of course, for people who don't know you represent Pennsylvania's 12th district, which is in and around Pittsburgh.

Congresswoman Summer Lee (72:24)

Yeah.

Jon Favreau (72:25)

You're also on the Oversight Committee in the House and you're in town for a joint hearing with LA officials and Democrats on the House Oversight Committee about federal agents, abuse of immigrants and US citizens. Hugely important issue I wanna get to in a minute. But first a lot of news I wanna get your thoughts on. Starting with the rather sudden resignation announcement from your House colleague Marjorie Taylor Greene. I know you probably haven't agreed with Haran too much, it's just an understatement to start, but you've been on the same side when it comes to pushing for the release of the Epstein files, opposing military aid to Israel, potential military action in Venezuela. Do you see figures like Greene and other disaffected MAGA types as voters who may be gettable for Democrats going forward? Open to persuasion perhaps.

Congresswoman Summer Lee (73:17)

What an interesting question. Honestly, I'm not gonna pretend that I'm the person to know. I am a natural skeptic. Right. I came like Robinson Congress. I was in the State House. I've been in the minority my whole time. Which means that I have seen many a Republican talk a good game. Say they believe something behind closed doors and when the whip cracks, they fall in line. So it takes a little bit more for me to believe that somebody is persuadable or gettable. But we all love hope. We all like a glimmer. I believe. Look, at the end of the day, whatever gets you on the right side of history, even if it's just like you're teetering and you come over for a second. I do think it's worth, you know, I think the opt in is worthwhile. So I do believe in creating an opt in and not an opt out. But I also think that the real. The real mark of whether some of these people are really serious about a break is, you know, if they are willing to also acknowledge harm that they've done. Right. They did not live. And she has not lived as like, you know, a figure who has not actually caused any problem. Like, no. Like her policies. There was an implication there. So, like, I'm happy that she's seen the light. I'm sorry that, you know, her own tactics are being used against her by the President. I'm sorry that that's happening. I hope that she realizes that, you know, this was a terrible thing to inflict on other people. But what does she do now to make up for it? What does she do now that she is. If she has seen a light? That's what I'm looking for right now. But one way or another, we do need more people. And we are going to have to find a way, as Democrats, to appeal to people, to appeal to their better sense, to help them to see and deprogram some folks. Right. Because if we're saying that there is a bit of a cult over there, then we also have to say that we're committed to helping people be recommitted over to the side of justice.

Jon Favreau (75:02)

So, speaking of strange bedfellows, I'd love to get your take on Zoran Mamdani's meeting with Trump on Friday. So I saw a few versions of this take from Ryan Grim, which was amplified by a senior Mamdani adviser, and it says, quote, trump and Mamdani giving the country a vision of what bottom versus top, rather than left versus right politics could look like is, if not historic, a genuinely novel development. Do you agree? What do you make of that?

Congresswoman Summer Lee (75:29)

I agree that that's what Zoran's probably doing.

Jon Favreau (75:31)

Yeah.

Congresswoman Summer Lee (75:32)

And honestly, no, you know what? I will say, just as somebody who probably shared, you know, who was on the side of the party with Mamdani. Right. My whole big thing is that I don't believe that people, like, organize their lives and their politics on this. Left, right, linear, right. It is. It's like the people who have the corporations, the power, and then the people who don't. And I think that that is a better orientation. It is a part of the plan of helping more people opt in. I don't think that Trump is doing that. I don't think that he's doing that. I don't know if Trump even had a plan when that man came In.

Jon Favreau (76:06)

Yeah. What did you make of him being, like, showering him with praise?

Congresswoman Summer Lee (76:11)

You know what? I don't know if I'm shocked. He's a shallow guy.

Jon Favreau (76:14)

Yeah.

Congresswoman Summer Lee (76:14)

Like, he's kind of shallow, kind of vain. Like, kind of vain. So, like, if a charismatic guy is smiling at him, and Lord knows I'm not. He smiles, man, he does a lot of smiling. Like, when he talks, like, he'll tell somebody something, he'll give him. They'll deliver bad news with a wonderful smile on his face. Like it's a part of the charisma. So I'm not shocked, you know, that, you know, Trump would be receptive to something like, I don't know. I won't say I'm not shocked, but I guess I'm not that he would be receptive to something like that. And I do think that he's getting his ass kicked on affordability right now.

Jon Favreau (76:46)

Yeah.

Congresswoman Summer Lee (76:46)

Like really. And as we do get closer to midterms, you know, they are going to have to. They're either gonna have to whatever their plans are for the country. Right. Their authoritarian, you know, fascist plans, whatever they are, if they include, you know, keeping and maintaining the majority, then they're gonna have to start to be responsive to the fact that nothing has changed fundamentally unless it has gone gotten worse on affordability.

Jon Favreau (77:09)

It struck me that every time it's mentioned that there's potential overlap with right wing populism and left wing populism, it always seems like the right wing populism, at least on the economic front, is to date been completely fake. There hasn't, I think, from the leaders.

Congresswoman Summer Lee (77:30)

Yeah, yeah.

Jon Favreau (77:30)

There's been rhetorical nods to it for sure. I have seen very few Republicans actually get behind sort of economically populist proposals. It seems like a lot of the populism is cultural identity around immigration and things like that. So, yeah, I don't know if bottom versus top, if Trump is really.

Congresswoman Summer Lee (77:51)

Yeah.

Jon Favreau (77:52)

Part of the grassroots.

Congresswoman Summer Lee (77:53)

Yeah, that's what my. That's what a funny thing to say of a man who we know is if we say that people are corporate capture, he is the corporate. Right. He didn't even have to be captured because he is already of that culture. Ye, Right. That's already his, you know, that's already his social, you know, kind of peers, and that's where he comes from. So, no, I will never. There is nothing that he could do or say that would convince me that he cares about, you know, folks in the, in social underclasses. Right. We know that. We know that from every single policy that he has, it. Even. Even the part that we're talking about the affordability, I do not think is something that he is doing benevolently. Right. This is something that he is doing because he's getting pressure from members of his party in the House right now who know that they have to run. Every single one of them all have to run on this record. They have to run on the fact that he has spent entire year. Right. Just governing by executive order, not really giving any consideration to any of the. Because I think that. I think that some of them still expect to get something done. Like, they. They're like, well, we have the White House. We expect some money to flow into our district. We expect some projects. None of that is happening. And I think that you starting to see things leaking out about people feeling that way there. I think the only reason why he would care about affordability is that part.

Jon Favreau (79:09)

I mean, there's been so many takes about Mamdani's win. And, you know, a lot of people say, okay, well, yeah, Democratic socialist winning in liberal New York City is maybe understandable. But, you know, the rest of the country, I mean, how liberal is it, though?

Congresswoman Summer Lee (79:24)

I mean, they had Rudy Giuliani and, like, Mike Bloomberg.

Jon Favreau (79:27)

I mean, I was gonna say that, you know, you were former DSA member, you won in, you know, it's a bluer district, Pennsylvania, but still Pittsburgh and surrounding Pittsburgh. It's not Manhattan.

Congresswoman Summer Lee (79:38)

Not at all.

Jon Favreau (79:40)

And I wonder if you had some thoughts to share on sort of the voters that you've met in your district and how they've responded to someone with progressive views like yours and whether, you know. And I know, you know, it's a. When you first came to Congress, it was 22, but, like, affordability, was that still a big issue with the voters in your district?

Congresswoman Summer Lee (80:00)

Yeah, no, I think it's always that. Right. Nothing's ever affordable enough. And it just so happened that we are also in a crisis now. So I think that that is always an undercurrent, you know, in, you know, in politics and campaigns. And. Yeah. So to be clear, you know, I represent all of the city of Pittsburgh, and it's still less than half of my district. I actually am a majority suburban district. I even have, you know, exurbs. So, like, the county that Pittsburgh is in, Allegheny county is probably a bluer county, but I actually go into another county that has gone to Westmoreland County. Right. That has performed Trump pretty consistently and persistently. So I do get to talk to very different people on the same day I can go to a black neighborhood in the Mon Valley. Historic steel, historic labor. We had a lot of labor, folks. This is the home of the labor movement, home of US Steel, home of that kind of hard hat. You know, it's a very cultural. Labor is a cultural thing there. You know, we talk to those folks and we'll talk to somebody in Westmoreland county, right? We'll talk to people. You know, we talk about the same things. From the time that I was in a state House to now, I've talked about in some way using the language that makes sense for folks to talk about the things that matter, right. That, you know, in our country, the wealthiest on earth, you know, our kids shouldn't have a. They should have a quality education. It should be free, right. That you should be able to go to the doctor, you should have health care. Right. That, you know, our air quality big in our region. Right. A lot of, like, presidential candidates think that you got to come to Western Pennsylvania and you got to talk about cracking and fracking, and you'll knock on the door and they'll be like, shh, yeah, we don't want that. It's like a disconnect that people don't understand. So, yeah, there is still that kind of that blue collar pride about Western Pennsylvania. And I think that that populist message resonates there more than anyone. I think that people fundamentally want for themselves, even if they haven't gotten to the point of wanting it for other people, they want for themselves, right? That thing that is the American dream. They want for themselves the ability to buy a house, grow wealth, be safe, be healthy. They want that. And that's what we talk about. And we keep our message to that. And I think that people, when they are not persuaded by multimillion dollar ads saying that we're monsters, when they're not confronted with that. We've seen by polling, we've seen through our conversations that people want what we are, what we're talking about, and they want to be a part of creating that, even. Even in my district.

Jon Favreau (82:23)

So there's lots of concern out there, including for me, that despite the overwhelming vote in Congress, Trump's DOJ is gonna keep slow walking and potentially withholding anything in the Epstein files that makes Trump look bad. What's your level of confidence that we're gonna get everything?

Congresswoman Summer Lee (82:39)

You know, first of all, I know a lot of people have tuned. People have been tuned in for quite a while. This, the discharge petition. So the now Epstein Transparency act going immediately straight to his desk and getting signed. Right. I think people are tuning back in. But we did get a subpoena three months ago. We were able to force that vote. In my subcommittee, we're on the ranking member, we were able to get Republicans to vote with us. And I think that that got the ball rolling and the DOJ has been slow walking it since then. So even all this good talk that Trump's doing about I'll sign it or I'll let releasing Republicans to vote for, he wasn't releasing them. That man is reading the tides, right? He's wanted this to go away for so long. And I think that this is one of the first issues that he has not been able to make disappear. Right. Whatever scandal he has had or whatever lie he has told to people, his base has, mostly, if he says he didn't do it, he didn't do it. If he says that he's gonna get around to it, he's gonna get around. Right? They mostly just said, let's move back. This is one instance where it has not died down. We've had the longest government shutdown in history. Right. We've had all year. And people are still, if not more than ever, demanding that these be released. So I think that they're going to continue to try to slow walk it. But we have actually subpoenas from the estate. A lot of people are. Obviously, the DOJ has the most. They have whatever. If there is a smoking gun. They have the rural investigation. But what his estate has, they have a lot. We've seen the birthday book, we've seen the email. All those things came from the estate. We just now got subpoenas to two of the banks that we need. Right. These are important parts of the investigation. And the slow drip is making more. I think it's making people more apprehensive, like they want more of it. So, no, I don't think he'll be able to have forever. And at the end of the day, if he makes it to the end of his term, a Democrat takes over. That's a Democratic doj. Right? At some point the truth is going to come out. Right? The wealthy and the powerful will be held accountable in this case. And I think that they are really unaccustomed to facing that reality.

Jon Favreau (84:43)

And if they say, if Bondi says, well, there's an ongoing investigation, so of course we have to withhold while the, while the investigation's ongoing.

Congresswoman Summer Lee (84:53)

That's the point.

Jon Favreau (84:53)

No, can you take them to court at some point? Is there legal recourse?

Congresswoman Summer Lee (84:57)

So That's a really good question. And I think that we are gonna have to explore that. Right. Because it is like the subpoena that we got back in July, that was signed, I think, in maybe early August, that was as legally binding as the discharge resolution, the bill that came from that. So they are compelled. They really are compelled to do it. And I think that that's why it's so important that we don't let them off the hook. I think so many people are looking for, like, the next kind of organizing tactic around it. Like, you know, it's great that we have the full body unanimously, except for. Except for one guy, Right. Pushing in that direction. But we need the people to not let up on him. Right. To not let up on his doj, because this is obstruction at this point. So we do away. They had the excuse, oh, it's a shutdown, the shutdown is over. So I think there's gonna be an opportunity. They talked about how big, how much there is any time. Obviously, they're pushing it. They're not pushing it. They're not pushing it. They've been pushed it.

Jon Favreau (85:56)

Right.

Congresswoman Summer Lee (85:56)

But no, I think that we're gonna have to look at every avenue, because at the end of the day, if we allow the DOJ to. To not respond to subpoenas, what does that say about our legal processes? Again, this is endemic. And the entire thing, the entire timeline of Epstein and Galene Maxwell's crimes, the obstruction is a part of it. And the DOJ now playing this, critical of a role in it, I think speaks precisely to why people are like, well, what is there? What on earth is there that we're going to.

Jon Favreau (86:25)

What are you trying so hard to hide?

Congresswoman Summer Lee (86:26)

Yeah, precisely.

Jon Favreau (86:27)

Let's talk about the ICE hearing that brought you here to la. What was the goal of conducting a hearing out here, and what did you learn from it?

Jon Lovett (86:33)

Yeah.

Congresswoman Summer Lee (86:33)

So, I mean, I know that it might not get as much news anymore. So many things, you know, the news ebbs and flows if it's not Epstein. But, you know, the way that Trump has been administering this, you know, his immigration enforcement policy has been just. I mean, inhumane to unconstitutional. Right. That has been the spectrum. Louisiana is, of course, you know, that was the epicenter. Right. This is where he started his test case, to bring in federal forces to a city to essentially unleash them on American people. The tactics that they've used. We've seen American citizens being detained, including one who spoke to us today. It's been cruel, and I think it's important that we, Even if Comer will not call, he's not going to call a hearing hearing, he's not going to conduct oversight on his administration. He's made that abundantly clear. But we still have to do it in whatever way that we can do it. So coming to hear, to hear from the people directly, their testimony, to put it into the record, right. Today we launched, from our committee, launched a database, a dashboard that will track ICE abuse. It won't just obviously track abuse that we're taking, but also allow people who are experiencing it to testify, you know, directly to the Democrats on the committee, creating a record. Right? So whether. Whenever we get into office, it's important that these things are documented so that we know where there were abuses of power. Right? We know where there were unconstitutional actions, even if, you know, the, the checks and balances are failing. So we wanted to come here, right? We, we needed to come here because we need to a. We need to send a message that we are not going to abide, you know, unconstitutional actions even if the, the majority win. And we also have to let people know that an abuse that happens in one place, in one jurisdiction is an abuse to all jurisdiction. If there is a lack of due process for some folks, then that is a threat to everybody, and we have to speak out about that.

Jon Favreau (88:29)

Yeah. So the warrantless arrest, detentions, abuse we've seen from ICE and cbp, you know, they have received quite a bit of attention over the last year, thanks to videos from eyewitnesses, court cases, protests, activists and leaders like yourself speaking out. It has dramatically changed public opinion on Trump's mass deportation agenda from where it was when he took office. But despite all of this, the administration seems like they don't give a shit and are not gonna change course as long as Trump is president. You know, I see all that, and I'm like, what can we do? Do we just have to wait until the end of Trump's term before hoping to see any kind of changes in this sort of horrific policy?

Congresswoman Summer Lee (89:14)

I mean, with so many things that he chooses to focus on, right? There is that piece where they do have these levers. They do hold these levers of power. But the waiting part, I don't think that we should see it as waiting, because part of the reason why we're here now is because, honestly, Democrats lost, I would say the messaging war, the narrative war around immigration. Right. We ceded ground to people who were always inclined to have a very inhumane view of immigration that is not their own bloodline, their own folks, right? So once we lost that right, that's how they were able to start to convince other Americans that these policies were necessary and that they're acceptable. So part of what we need to do right now is we have to win those folks back, too. Just as much as we have to be prepared to govern, to govern in a more humane way. We do need just. Just humane immigration reform.

Jon Favreau (90:08)

Right.

Congresswoman Summer Lee (90:08)

I think that there are things within our immigration process that we can acknowledge, including our own role. Right. Our own role in how we interact with the global community that causes immigration, causes refugee crises. We have to talk about all that. In the meantime, we have to create and we have to put forth our vision for what is a better, more humane way of accepting people into our country, of protecting people as they get here. But also, I will say that these goals hand in hand with our own criminal legal reform system, because both of them are, I say, equally inhumane. And again, that we had an. Equally that we had an inhumane criminal legal system where we're locking up black and brown people, we're locking up disabled people and poor folks at the rate we are. We turned a blind eye to that for many, many years, and now we're seeing it with our immigration system. Right. We have to solve both of those crises, and we have to build up, we have to organize, we have to do all this. Not that we're doing nothing.

Jon Lovett (91:03)

Nothing.

Congresswoman Summer Lee (91:03)

Yeah, it's not that we're doing nothing, but it's that we have to use the tools that we have, and we have to be honest about the fact that, yeah, it's gonna be difficult time right now. So knowing your rights, helping our organizations that are doing legal defense or organizations that are doing their nugget rights, or organizations that are protecting the community and serving the communities that are most targeted and most impacted, that's work right now that's really meaningful.

Jon Favreau (91:24)

Last month, I spoke to George reddes, who's a U.S. citizen, served in Iraq, and he was up in Camarillo, north of here, and was detained by ice, held for three days in solitary confinement. You know, no phone call to his family, no lawyer, didn't do a thing, wasn't charged with anything, and he went to D.C. and he'd been trying to get members of Congress to sign on to changes in legislation that right now the law protects federal agents from lawsuits if they engage in abuse that it doesn't protect other people from, but somehow federal agents have this, like, carve out in legislation. And so he was trying to get some members of Congress to sign onto that. Do you think that's something that if, you know, Democrats get Congress back, that you guys would wanna pass?

Congresswoman Summer Lee (92:09)

I would. I mean, you know, you think about this. There's a reason why. And I mean, if we remember just from the Black Lives Matter movement, Breonna Taylor, you know how dangerous like no knock warrants are. If you were around, then you understand how dangerous it is to have, you know, just like I. ICE patrolling, baby patrolling, prowling, masked. They're in unmarked vehicles. We heard from somebody, multiple people today who mention that they're essentially just pulling over anybody who even looks Latino, that the courts then said that they can essentially discriminate, they can profile. That's dangerous. It's dangerous for every single person involved. But what does it mean to have a country where American citizens have to walk around with their passports? Because that's what we're seeing, right? What does it mean to have American citizens and immigrants right in this country? And they're afraid to go to work, they're afraid to go to school, they're afraid that they may be killed in an interaction with ice, as has happened. Right. People have been killed in interactions with ice, having done nothing, having posing no danger. Right. This is such a dangerous moment. And certain policies like that, protecting ice Ages, when they are blatantly on camera abusing people. Right. Obscuring their identity and not identifying themselves, though, making people, making people submit to someone who they don't know who it is. I just think that is so fundamentally, so fundamentally wrong, so fundamentally unconstitutional. And obviously we need a real recalibration. So this is one law. Yeah, we need a recalibration. Totally.

Jon Favreau (93:44)

Yeah. We're a year out from the 2026 midterms. What would you like to see the Democratic Party and Democratic leadership do differently between now and the election? To give the party the best possible chance of taking back the House and maybe the Senate.

Congresswoman Summer Lee (93:57)

We don't have enough time to talk about that.

Jon Favreau (94:00)

Anything top of the list.

Congresswoman Summer Lee (94:01)

Oh, my goodness. Let me try to organize my thoughts. We have so much. No, I am so worried that we are still learning the wrong lessons from the November election. Last November election with Trump, this November's election with Mamdani, and you see other people like Spanberger and folks over in other places. I just think that we are chronically committed to learning the wrong lesson. Here's the thing that I hope that we would first do. Oh, my goodness. We talk a lot about messaging problems. We have a messenger problem. Right. There are some folks who are so disconnected from the everyday Lived experience of your average person that it doesn't matter what consultant comes in and gives us a message. People want to see an authenticity. They want to know that we are choosing them. And I say this often, right? The Democrats right now have to choose. We've been trying to straddle the fence, trying to serve two masters, and for so long, we've actually gotten away without having to choose. We can be the party of corporations and the party of people at the same time. But right now, in this moment, people are. They see that they're over it. And I think that last election cycle, I think truly since 2016, people have been increasingly calling for the Democrats to distinguish themselves and to choose. You cannot serve two masters. So I think if I had to say the first thing that I want Democrats to do different is choose your master. Who are we gonna be? Who do we serve? You cannot serve. You cannot serve the oppressed and the oppressor. You can't serve the money and the military. You can't do both at the same time. So I think fundamentally, that's what I would ask. Second, just as a personal thing, I would ask Democrats to be more courageous. If you have to get your clout, your claim to fame, if you can only get it, if you can only be relevant by punching left. And mind you, people will say that left are like the white left. No, I mean, in office, the left are overwhelmingly women of color. You know, if you can only make your case by harming us, by fighting us, by truly mischaracterizing us. Instead, it seems like I too believe that they fight us sometimes more than they fight the Republicans, that they fight authoritarian, that they fight fashion that they use. If they kept that same energy with authoritarianism, would we be here? I don't think that we would. So I would like to see that as much as we understand that somebody who's running in a Virginia statewide, you know, has to run the way that they do, why do they not believe that people in blue areas deserve to be represented? That black voters and Latino voters and urban voters also deserve to be represented? This is a representative democracy. Too often Democrats are in the chorus, leadings, lead soloists, right? Telling urban voters, black voters, that they have to sacrifice the representation that is actually helpful to them for some greater good. And it just. The pendulum never swings our way. I think that we can be a party that just meets the basic needs of people without throwing away trans folks, without throwing away urban and black folks, without throwing away progressives. You can't say that we want to win we want to be Trump and also say, but I want to do it without you.

Jon Favreau (97:13)

Do you think if it's a messenger issue, do you feel good about the candidates Democrats have recruited to run in 26?

Congresswoman Summer Lee (97:24)

Do Democrats recruit? That's an honest question.

Jon Favreau (97:28)

I guess maybe the candidates, I feel like they recruit themselves that are out.

Congresswoman Summer Lee (97:31)

There, they just crop up. You know, I think that, like, with many election cycles, you know, people rise, you know, to the occasion. Every district is unique. Every district is. Every district has its idea of what it wants. But I think that whether your district is the riddest of blue districts, I'm only talking about Democrats. The riddles of blue districts or the bluest of blue districts. Right. I think that everybody wants to see people who are willing to speak up, who are transparent, who are present. Right. And who are willing to speak truth to power. That's not a centrist or left or a right thing. That's just like, that's a baseline. So I think that there are more candidates who are willing to do that. I do think that there's also been a reckoning about, you know, generational shifts.

Jon Lovett (98:14)

Right.

Congresswoman Summer Lee (98:14)

You know, Gen Z and millennials finally comprise the largest portion of the voting electorate. But we don't, obviously, we don't have proportional representation at any level of government. So there are more. There are more folks who are starting to come in, and we have different lived experiences. Like, we've lived through different things. Right. Our politics are informed by just different conditions. And there is obviously a need for that sort of lived expertise and even professional expertise to be represented in government. So people are looking for that. And I'm not one of those people who says that all old folks should go again, representative democracy. I am the one to say that. That if you find yourself in a moment where you're like, my God, I really want to go back. I miss the days where me and my Republican colleagues smoked a cigar together at the Bipartisan Club. Right. Then those days are gone. There is no normal to go back to the country that they knew, the government that they've lived through, the Republican and Democratic parties that they grew up in are comfortable with, don't exist anymore, and they can't ever exist again. We need people who have a vision for where we're going now. And I think that that's what the American people want is like, we understand that your nostalgia is a thing, but your nostalgia is not like a policy. You know, it's not like a policy agenda.

Jon Favreau (99:33)

Yeah. Not all the old people have to go, but maybe we can just bring down the median age.

Congresswoman Summer Lee (99:37)

The ones who don't have fire should go though again because there are some who have fire.

Jon Favreau (99:40)

The people.

Congresswoman Summer Lee (99:41)

Oh, young. Cause let me tell you, there are some young people who do not have fire. Like there are young people who are very much of the get in the fit in ilk. Like they're like, I want to come in. This is prestige. I got a pen. I want to be here, you know. And they're here trying to do the same politics that have been done. Those politics don't work anymore and we need a change from all of that.

Jon Favreau (100:00)

Agreed. Congresswoman Summerlee, thank you so much for joining Pod Save America and it was good to have you here in studio.

Congresswoman Summer Lee (100:06)

Thanks for having me. Call us back.

Jon Favreau (100:08)

We like LA for sure, anytime. That's our show for today. Thanks to Summerlee for coming by. We're heading heading out for Thanksgiving, but we'll still be sending content your way. On Friday you'll hear some of our live recording of our subscriber only show terminally online. And on Sunday, Dan will be back with a conversation with political analyst and fellow polling obsessive Amy Walter from the Cook Political Report. Then the three of us will be back with a new show the following Tuesday. Everyone have a great holiday. We'll talk to you soon. If you want to listen to Pod Save America ad free and get access to exclusive podcast, go to crooked.com friends to subscribe on Supercast, Substack, YouTube or Apple Podcasts. Also, please consider leaving us a review that helps boost this episode and everything we do here at Crooked. Pod Save America is a Crooked Media production. Our producers are David Toledo, Emma Illich Frank and Saul Rubin. Our associate producer is Farah Safari. Austin Fisher is our senior producer. Reed Churlin is our executive editor. Adrian Hill is our head of news and politics. The show is mixed and edited by Andrew Chadwick. Jordan Kanter is our sound engineer with audio support from Kyle Seglin and Charlotte Landis. Matt de Groat is our head of production. Naomi Sengel is our executive assistant. Thanks to our digital team, Elijah Cohn, Hayley Jones, Ben Hefcoat, Mia Kelman, Kirill Pelaviev, David Toles and Ryan Young. Our production staff is proudly unionized with the Writers Guild of America East.

Jon Lovett (101:42)

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