Kamala Didn't Have the Courage!

Summary

Pod Save America: "Kamala Didn't Have the Courage!" – January 7, 2025

Hosted by Jon Favreau, Jon Lovett, and Tommy Vietor

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Introduction

In the January 7, 2025 episode of Pod Save America titled "Kamala Didn't Have the Courage!", hosts Jon Favreau, Jon Lovett, and Tommy Vietor delve into the aftermath of the 2024 election, the enduring impact of the January 6th Capitol insurrection, and the Republican Party's ambitious legislative agenda for the coming year. This episode provides a comprehensive analysis of the current political landscape, highlighting key developments, controversies, and strategic maneuvers shaping the nation's future.

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Reflecting on January 6th: Four Years Later

The hosts begin by marking the four-year anniversary of the January 6th insurrection at the U.S. Capitol. They juxtapose the events of four years ago with the relative calm observed during the current certification of the 2024 election results.

June Diane Raphael sets the stage:

"[03:28] You can see that four years later, the atmosphere is vastly different. Where previously there was a violent attempt to disrupt democracy, now the certification process was smooth, akin to a snowball fight."

Jason Mantzoukas adds:

"[04:32] It's almost surreal to think that what happened on January 6th didn't prevent Trump from securing another term. The contrast is stark."

The discussion emphasizes the constitutional process's resilience, despite past attempts to undermine it. Paul Scheer critiques President Biden's op-ed on maintaining the memory of January 6th:

"[05:23] The quote Biden used, 'those who do not remember the past are doomed to repeat it,' seems out of touch. It's not about remembering per se, but about understanding and adapting to prevent future insurrections."

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Biden's Op-Ed and Democratic Messaging

June Diane Raphael scrutinizes President Biden's January 6th op-ed, which urges Americans to remember the events to safeguard democracy.

"[04:39] Biden's call to remember January 6th feels like rehashing old narratives without offering tangible solutions. It's a reprise that doesn't resonate with the current electorate, many of whom seem apathetic or moved on."

Paul Scheer elaborates on the limitations of such messaging:

"[07:02] While Biden and Congress have taken steps to prevent election fraud and enhance security during certifications, the overarching sentiment among voters suggests a willingness to accept a president whose actions may have previously threatened democratic institutions."

Jason Mantzoukas argues that the problem isn't memory but empathy:

"[07:03] It's not that people aren't remembering; it's that they don't care enough. The pervasive tribalism means that many prioritize party loyalty over democratic principles."

The hosts collectively express frustration with the Democratic Party's repetitive and insufficient response to the January 6th events, questioning its effectiveness in preventing Trump's resurgence.

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Republican Legislative Agenda: The "Big Beautiful Bill"

The conversation shifts to the Republican Party's legislative strategies for 2025, focusing on their plan to pass a comprehensive bill encompassing taxes, energy, and immigration.

June Diane Raphael introduces the topic:

"[23:04] Republicans are strategizing to pass a unified bill that addresses tax cuts for the wealthy, energy policies, and mass deportations. Trump's preference is for a singular, all-encompassing bill, though some senators advocate splitting it into separate pieces for immigration and taxes."

Paul Scheer analyzes the feasibility:

"[24:25] Immigration appears to be the more politically viable component, potentially allowing Republicans to secure a quick win on border issues. Tax reforms, however, present challenges due to their association with traditional Republican values and potential backlash from the broader electorate."

Jason Mantzoukas speculates on strategic choices:

"[24:35] Given the political climate, focusing on immigration might offer the best chance for passing legislation, especially if Democrats remain divided or lack the necessary votes to block it."

The hosts discuss the complexities of reconciliation rules, debt ceiling negotiations, and the overarching financial implications of the proposed tax cuts, highlighting the significant budgetary challenges Republicans face in implementing their agenda without exacerbating national debt concerns.

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The Pardon Power Controversy: Implications of Trump's Potential Pardons

A significant portion of the episode explores former President Trump's promises to pardon individuals involved in the January 6th insurrection.

June Diane Raphael raises concerns:

"[15:54] Trump has pledged to pardon rioters, potentially including non-violent offenders. This move could undermine the justice system and embolden extremist groups, posing serious risks to democratic institutions."

Jason Mantzoukas emphasizes the political precariousness for Trump:

"[16:00] Regardless of his choice to pardon, Trump faces a fragile political position. Pardoning violent offenders could alienate moderate voters and further fracture the MAGA coalition."

Paul Scheer draws parallels to historical precedents:

"[17:05] Similar to how international bodies react to North Korea's actions, the U.S. must decide whether to accept the pardons as a normalization of Trump's controversial actions or take a stand against them."

The discussion underscores the potential long-term consequences of such pardons, including the normalization of insurrectionist behavior and the erosion of public trust in the political and judicial systems.

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Elon Musk's Foray into Politics: A Fragmented MAGA Movement

The episode also touches upon Elon Musk's increasing involvement in political discourse, particularly within the MAGA movement.

June Diane Raphael outlines the conflict:

"[37:08] Elon Musk's support for the H1B visa program has ignited internal conflicts within the MAGA ranks. His pro-immigration stance clashes with the hardline, anti-immigration faction led by figures like Laura Loomer and Steve Bannon."

Paul Scheer comments on the broader implications:

"[38:22] This rift exemplifies the Republican Party's fault lines. While business-oriented Republicans like Musk see the value in skilled immigration, traditionalists prioritize strict border control, creating a disjointed front against Democrats."

Jason Mantzoukas humorously reflects on Musk's political maneuvers:

"[48:25] Musk's endorsements of far-right candidates in Germany, the UK, and Canada showcase his unpredictable approach, which often undermines coherent GOP strategies and alienates potential allies."

The hosts critique Musk's lack of political acumen and the resultant fragmentation within the MAGA movement, highlighting how such internal discord hampers the Republican Party's legislative effectiveness.

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Presidential Medal of Freedom: Controversial Selections

A contentious segment of the episode addresses President Biden's recent awarding of the Presidential Medal of Freedom to various individuals, including political figures and celebrities.

June Diane Raphael critiques the selections:

"[54:52] The list, featuring figures like Hillary Clinton and George Soros, appears politically motivated rather than based on genuine merit. This selection process raises questions about the award's credibility and impartiality."

Paul Scheer compares past and present recipients:

"[56:35] Unlike previous administrations that honored a diverse array of contributors, Biden's choices seem skewed towards political allies, diminishing the honor's prestige."

Jason Mantzoukas mocks the inconsistency:

"[57:16] The inclusion of figures like Jose Andres alongside political heavyweights creates a perplexing mix that undermines the award's intended purpose."

The hosts express skepticism over the administration's intentions, suggesting that the Medal of Freedom is being used as a political tool rather than a genuine recognition of outstanding civilian contributions.

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Closing Thoughts and Book Recommendations

Wrapping up the episode, the hosts share personal reflections and book recommendations that resonate with the episode's themes.

Paul Scheer recommends "An Artist of the Floating World" by Kazuo Ishiguro:

"[58:27] The novel explores the aftermath of fascist fervor, mirroring the current political climate. It delves into personal and societal reckonings post-insurrection, offering insights into reconciliation and accountability."

June Diane Raphael discusses "Rough Riders" by Patrick Raffini and "Ours Was a Shining Future" by Evan Leonhardt:

"[60:19] These books examine the GOP's realignment of the working class and the broader American Dream amid rising inequality, providing context to the current political strategies and voter sentiments."

Jason Mantzoukas shares his reading of "The Wide Wide Sea" by Hampton Sides:

"[60:19] This exploration of Captain James Cook's voyages offers a parallel to the political exploration and territorial expansions being metaphorically discussed in the episode."

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Conclusion

The January 7, 2025 episode of Pod Save America provides a nuanced examination of the contemporary political landscape, intertwining reflections on past upheavals with current legislative ambitions and internal party conflicts. Through incisive analysis and pointed commentary, the hosts illuminate the challenges facing American democracy, the strategic maneuvers of the Republican Party, and the persistent ramifications of the January 6th insurrection. The episode serves as a critical resource for listeners seeking to understand the complexities of modern American politics and the forces shaping its trajectory.

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Notable Quotes:

• June Diane Raphael [03:28]: "You can see that four years later, the atmosphere is vastly different. Where previously there was a violent attempt to disrupt democracy, now the certification process was smooth, akin to a snowball fight."

• Jason Mantzoukas [04:32]: "It's almost surreal to think that what happened on January 6th didn't prevent Trump from securing another term. The contrast is stark."

• Paul Scheer [05:23]: "The quote Biden used, 'those who do not remember the past are doomed to repeat it,' seems out of touch. It's not about remembering per se, but about understanding and adapting to prevent future insurrections."

• June Diane Raphael [23:04]: "Republicans are strategizing to pass a unified bill that addresses tax cuts for the wealthy, energy policies, and mass deportations. Trump's preference is for a singular, all-encompassing bill, though some senators advocate splitting it into separate pieces for immigration and taxes."

• Jason Mantzoukas [24:35]: "Given the political climate, focusing on immigration might offer the best chance for passing legislation, especially if Democrats remain divided or lack the necessary votes to block it."

• Paul Scheer [38:22]: "This rift exemplifies the Republican Party's fault lines. While business-oriented Republicans like Musk see the value in skilled immigration, traditionalists prioritize strict border control, creating a disjointed front against Democrats."

• June Diane Raphael [54:52]: "The list, featuring figures like Hillary Clinton and George Soros, appears politically motivated rather than based on genuine merit. This selection process raises questions about the award's credibility and impartiality."

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This summary encapsulates the essence of the episode, weaving together the hosts' discussions, analyses, and insights while highlighting significant moments and quotes to provide a comprehensive overview for those who haven't listened to the episode.

Transcript

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[Paul Scheer]

Hey, I'm Paul Scheer.

[June Diane Raphael]

I'm June.

[Diane Rayfield]

Diane Rayfield.

[June Diane Raphael]

And I'm Jason Mantzoukis. And we're the hosts of how did this Get Made?

[Jason Mantzoukas]

A comedy podcast where we deconstruct, make.

[June Diane Raphael]

Fun of, and celebrate the best worst movies ever made. Have you ever seen a movie that's so bad that it's actually good? Eh, that's what we're talking about.

[Diane Rayfield]

From franchises and made for TV romances.

[Jason Mantzoukas]

To bonkers 80s action flicks and obscure.

[June Diane Raphael]

Sci fi musicals, we cover it all. You can find. How did this get Made? Wherever you get your podcasts. And don't forget to follow the show so you never miss an episode.

[Jason Mantzoukas]

Idiot.

[June Diane Raphael]

Welcome to Pod Save America. I'm Jon Favreau.

[Paul Scheer]

I'm Jon Levitt.

[Jason Mantzoukas]

And Tommy Vitor.

[June Diane Raphael]

We're back.

[Paul Scheer]

We're back.

[Jason Mantzoukas]

Good to see you guys.

[June Diane Raphael]

You too. You too. Miss this place. Quick announcement before we start. Now that the election's over, we're going back to two episodes per week, Tuesdays and Fridays. Maybe the occasional episode on the weekends. More news on that after the inauguration.

[Jason Mantzoukas]

We heard you loud and clear. Do less, talk less.

[June Diane Raphael]

But for now, it'll be the three of us on Tuesdays, as it was Dan and I on Fridays, and, you know, less chaos for all of us on Wednesdays. Yeah, so that's that. On today's show, we're gonna talk about how Republicans are gearing up to pass what Trump is calling one big beautiful bill that'll fulfill his campaign promises on taxes, energy, and immigration. We're also gonna talk about President Biden's final list of Medal of Freedom recipients, which was criticized by Republicans, including incoming Vice President J.D. vance. But first, we're recording this on January 6th, a day four years ago when Donald Trump incited a violent mob of his supporters to storm the U.S. capitol Assau Police officers and threaten the lives of elected officials, all in a failed attempt to disrupt Congress's certification of an election he knew he had lost. Four years later, most voters said, hey, let's give that guy another chance. And this time, the only clash outside the Capitol was a snowball fight.

[Jason Mantzoukas]

That looked fun.

[June Diane Raphael]

Yeah, it did look fun. More fun than four years ago. It took Congress about 30 minutes to certify the election. No one objected. And the final results were even read by Trump's opponent. Kamala Harris, who is Vice President, was obligated by the Constitution to suffer this final indignity.

[Kamala Harris]

The state of the vote for the President of the United States as delivered to the President of the Senate is as follows. The whole number of the electors appointed to vote for President of the United States is 538. Within that whole number, the majority is 270. The votes for President of the United States are as follows. Donald J. Trump of the state of Florida has received 312 votes. Kamala D. Harris. Kamala D. Harris of the state of California has received 226 votes. This announcement of the state of the vote by the President of the Senate shall be deemed a sufficient declaration of the persons elected President and Vice President of the United States.

[June Diane Raphael]

And here's Kamala Harris afterwards talking to reporters.

[Kamala Harris]

Obviously, a very important day, and it was about what should be the norm and what the American people should be able to take for granted. Today I did what I have done my entire career, which is take seriously the oath that I have taken many times to support and defend the Constitution of the United States.

[June Diane Raphael]

Welcome back to hell, everyone.

[Jason Mantzoukas]

Yeah, really.

[June Diane Raphael]

Jesus. The current President, Joe Biden weighed in on January 6th with a watch Washington Post op ed, as one does, where he calls out the, quote, unrelenting effort to, quote, rewrite, even erase the history of January 6th and implores us to commit to remembering January 6th every year because, quote, any nation that forgets its past is doomed to repeat it. Feels like the horse is out of the barn on that one, but what do you guys think? How is the country supposed to process the reality that Trump's actions on January 6th just weren't enough of a problem for most Americans to keep him out of the White House.

[Jason Mantzoukas]

Don't you guys feel like an op ed about January 6th is just the perfect encapsulation of how feckless everything feels in this moment?

[Paul Scheer]

Yes, yes, yes. So I. This has bothered me for a while. Just indulge me for a second. The quote is, those who do not remember the past are doomed to repeat it. But it's not about countries, it's about people. And the actual quote, if you go back and look at it, is not about, like, the magical ability to remember things. Like memories do not prevent insurrections. Like, that's not what the quote's about. What the quote's actually about is if you don't remember anything, you're doomed to do the same thing over and over again. But if you're too mired in the past. Right. If you become a. This is from the original philosopher. Stubborn like an old man, you also become doomed to repeat yourself because you're not adaptable and you don't learn from what's happening in the actual present.

[Jason Mantzoukas]

And so, like, that's pretty on the nose.

[Paul Scheer]

Yeah, it is pretty on the nose. Tommy.

[June Diane Raphael]

At least, at least he got a. He got placement in the Post, you know, with Bezos owning it. Good for him.

[Paul Scheer]

He did have to start by praising Melania.

[June Diane Raphael]

Speaking of coups, you know. Yeah.

[Paul Scheer]

First couple of paragraphs are about how Melania is looking more and more beautiful.

[June Diane Raphael]

I have to say that I was handling the election results pretty well and did a good job disconnecting from the news over the break. And it wasn't. And I thought, okay, January 6th. Gonna be our first pod. We should say something about January 6th. Cause whatever. It's the anniversary when I started reading last night and then this morning I got so angry. It's really started to hit me.

[Jason Mantzoukas]

No, it's awful.

[June Diane Raphael]

It's really started to hit me in a way that I was not, was not expecting or I hope wouldn't happen.

[Jason Mantzoukas]

He just won by a bigger margin before he will now take office with both houses of Congress in a court system that he stacked for himself a few years ago. So, yeah, when we, when it comes to fighting back his agenda in Washington, we are a bunch of. Our party is one sad op ed. We'll be doing messaging until the midterms.

[Paul Scheer]

It's, you know, we are both remembering and repeating the past.

[June Diane Raphael]

Seems this week, I mean, a coup attempt wasn't disqualifying. And, and no amount of remembering is going to change that.

[Paul Scheer]

Right.

[June Diane Raphael]

You know, and it's like, look, Biden and Congress, to their credit, Republicans and Democrats passed a bill to make it more difficult to overturn the results of Future elections on January 6. In the certification process, they can beef up security, but there's just no getting around the fact that Americans, most Americans, used a free and fair election to say that they're okay with a president who tried to overturn a free and fair election. We all have to live with that.

[Paul Scheer]

Yeah.

[June Diane Raphael]

And I also, for all of history.

[Paul Scheer]

And that's what I think is so like. And by the way, I know, I'm just like, hey, we're back. It's a new year. Time to criticize Joe Biden again. It's like, you're right. Like, if we don't learn from the past, we are doomed to repeat It. But one of the things we should learn from the recent past is Democrats performing virtue, explaining over and over again why the insurrection was so terrible. It didn't work. Like, this style of politics is not working. And we should also probably remember the recent past ourselves.

[Jason Mantzoukas]

Yeah, it's not a remembering problem. It's a caring problem. And part of that, we don't need to relitigate the whole election. Obviously, inflation was a big part of it and people how they were feeling economically. But a majority of voters just decided that they were okay voting for the guy who did the insurrection. And some of that is propaganda in the power of autocrats like Donald Trump. When you have this media apparatus on the right to rewrite history.

[June Diane Raphael]

Right.

[Jason Mantzoukas]

I mean, it was not long after the insurrection that people like Tucker Carlson were leading the charge and suggesting that it was like an FBI op and false flag operation, yada, yada, yada. But most of it was just people didn't care. And it's a really sad story also about tribalism, in the fact that a lot of Trump fans, from the people who stormed the Capitol to his new billionaire buddies in the tech industry, just don't care. They hate Democrats more than they care about what he tried to do to democratic institutions.

[June Diane Raphael]

I mean, to your point, Lovett, about how it, like, sounds the same, it's like the same tone from Democrats. The problem for me is not necessarily, like, saying again, what happened on January 6th. I wouldn't mind that, actually, because I do think, like, I mean, I read Sergeant Gunnell, who was one of the police officers who was assaulted on that day. He was writing in the Bulwark on Monday. And this guy was served in Iraq for over 500 days. He said that of all those days, January 6 was the scariest day of his life. Even considering, like, he was in harm's way in Iraq, came back with PTSD. He was assaulted more than 40 times that day, lost his job afterwards, lost his health. And reading that got me, like, really, really angry because at least it was like, it puts you back in that day that what I couldn't handle on January 6th was like, all the talk about the institutions and our democracy and, like, isn't it great that Democrats know how to do the peaceful transfer of power? And like, look, Kamala Harris just is in a terrible position on January 6th. Like, I really feel for her. So I don't want to criticize her for her comments much. But, like, Biden's op ed did not say anything. Most Democrats were like, this is what it's Basically, like, this is what it looks like to lose. Like a. Not be sore losers.

[Paul Scheer]

Yeah, we were good, good losers. That's who we are now.

[June Diane Raphael]

And look, you could have easily said Donald Trump incited an insurrection and this, he's tried to lie about it. He's tried to raise history. He's wrong. He is unfit. The American people disagree with my assessment and other people's assessment. But I don't have to pretend that everything's okay. You know, like, you can still accept the result without sounding like, pat me, pat myself on the back because I've defended institutions.

[Paul Scheer]

Well, that's the thing. That's what it was. So, like, like the op ed by Joe Biden does not mention Donald Trump by name. And, and I understand the logic of that, which is like, you're trying to, I don't know, perform that you're performing normalcy to, I don't know, hope Donald Trump learns from your example. It doesn't like, but, but it's, it's privileging normal behavior, normal looking behavior over being honest about the situation, which is you are handing over power to someone who has promised to use the pardon power and the powers of, of the Justice Department against his enemies in terrifying ways. You are doing that. That is what you believe is your responsibility. But you're not being honest about it. You're, you say in this op ed, we cannot accept a repeat of what happened four years ago, but just in how you're talking about this right now, you're accepting it.

[June Diane Raphael]

Well, he says, like, you know, and on that day, democracy prevailed. And it's like, yeah, maybe on that day, but like, guess what? Today feels like the coup worked.

[Jason Mantzoukas]

Yeah.

[June Diane Raphael]

You know, it took longer than Donald Trump expected, but it worked.

[Jason Mantzoukas]

I had similar mixed feelings. Like, I appreciate them modeling adult leadership and respect for institutions and democracy and the peaceful transfer of power. It is what makes the United States special. But it also, it did make me very frustrated at Joe Biden all over again for running for reelection, in part because there were all these stories over the break about Biden and his like, closest, closest aides telling people that they think he would have won. And it's like, boy, talk about doomed to repeating mistakes if we don't learn from them. Right. Like, that is just delusional. And anyone entertaining that kind of delusional thinking is doing Biden and the Democratic Party a disservice.

[June Diane Raphael]

Yeah. And again, it's just, it's the, the tone. And, you know, I thought that now we and others have talked too much about the whole, made the whole point about like, Democrats just can't be the defenders of institutions. We got to reform institutions. I was like, all right, we've made our, we've set our piece on that. But then today, and I get it, it's January 6th and it's about democracy, whatever, so people talking about it. But like just the language. There is like an entire language that Democrats need to just fucking throw in the trash about like institutions, democracy, sacred, this and blah blah, blah, blah, blah. It's like, no, it's so like, okay.

[Paul Scheer]

Joe Biden, I've read your op ed. I've gotten to the bottom of it. I agree. I'm doing it right now. I'm remembering January 6th. Here I am. I'm remembering it. There's no next step. There's no next step for what you do to actually prevent an insurrection or to prevent an overthrow of our democracy. There's no kind of, I don't know, like sense of agency. We're just passengers.

[Jason Mantzoukas]

It's good luck for four years.

[Paul Scheer]

Yeah.

[June Diane Raphael]

Or like just attunement with the millions of people in the country who are probably wrestling with this like we are like other people are and who just can't believe this is about to happen. Like, no acknowledgement that people are angry, in despair to. You know, it's just sort of like riding up here, you know, like surface.

[Jason Mantzoukas]

Level whiplash from the campaign messaging.

[June Diane Raphael]

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[June Diane Raphael]

So more than 1500 people have been charged with crimes related to January 6th. More than 170 who've been accused of using weapons to assault Police officers. 170 more than a thousand have pleaded guilty. More than 200 were convicted at trial. The Department of Justice is still weighing whether to charge hundreds more. But of course, Trump has promised to pardon these fine Americans on day one, though he has said, he said to time in late November, I'm going to do case by case. And if they were nonviolent, I think they've been greatly punished. So unclear what he's actually gonna do here. He certainly has the power to pardon any or all of the rioters, even the violent ones, though if he does, I think it certainly comes with some pretty scary implications going forward. What do you guys think? Are we supposed to just sort of accept that most Americans didn't care enough about this?

[Jason Mantzoukas]

No, I think this is very politically precarious for Trump no matter what he does, because people may have forgotten about January 6th or they just stopped caring about it, but it doesn't mean they agree with him. I think the Washington Post had some polling around the three year anniversary that found people thought it was an attack on democracy, not, you know, a peaceful protest or whatever Trump's narrative was. So I think if Trump pardons violent offenders from that day, we need to lift those stories up as much as possible, especially the specific stories of, you know, a cop who got beat up or this or that. Right. Because the horror of the day can get lost in kind of the collective way. We talk about January 6th like it was one singular event, actually. It was like a whole bunch of awful things that happened to thousands and thousands of people who stormed and rampaged through the Capitol. So lifting up those individual stories is important. But if Trump doesn't pardon all of these violent offenders, like the former head of the Proud Boys is out there today demanding a pardon. Enrique Terrio. Yeah. If Trump doesn't pardon guys like him, then he's gonna have a whole bunch of rip shit MAGA types. And I think that's valuable because we wanna fracture the MAGA coalition. So I think this is a pretty precarious moment for him. It's like a real put up or shut up moment.

[Paul Scheer]

No, I agree with that. You know, it's like in the same way that like we talk about like how, remember when, like whenever North Korea would test a nuclear missile, the State Department would say, well, this is unacceptable. And it's like, okay, seems like then what, you've accepted it. It's accepted.

[June Diane Raphael]

Yeah.

[Paul Scheer]

And so it's like, are we just going to accept that all of these people, that we're just going to accept that the country's just gonna move on from the insurrection? Well, like, yes, it's true, that's what's happened. But the question is, what do we do? And also like, again, like, how do we learn from the fact that this wasn't salient enough, important enough for people, enough people as they voted to make the difference? Why? Right, Some of it is just time. Right. Like some of the most right wing Republicans thought Trump was finished after January 6th. Not just the like, establishment types, but like real right wing Republicans thought he was doing so much damage to himself and to the conservative cause that he had to be pushed aside.

[June Diane Raphael]

Now, Charlie Kirk, right after the insurrection said, enjoy jail to all the rioters. Like, enjoy jail, let's get him, let's put him in jail.

[Paul Scheer]

And so like, over the years that followed, there was this slow, deliberate effort to keep moving the kind of politics on this from Donald Trump is finished to this wasn't led by Donald Trump to this was a false flag operation led by the FBI. Now we're at the point where these are political prisoners and actually they didn't do anything wrong that Donald Trump won the election. Right. And I do think it's worth thinking, okay, like, well, what's next after that? Right?

[June Diane Raphael]

Well, and I do think part of what I hope we can do and Democrats should do in the coming years is like tell people why they should care about something that happens instead of just being outraged about it. And you know, Matt Iglesias, in his substacks, low boring today, talked about how he's more alarmed today than he was on January 6, 2021, because at least then, all those Republicans you just talked about came out, and it seemed like it was over for Donald Trump, and that was it. And, you know, and thinking about the pardon power here, which man pardons over the last month, my views on the pardon power, like, I always thought it was sort of expansive and dangerous. Now I'm really like, this is a real. Iglesias talks about how it's like, potentially a backdoor to dictatorship, Right. And he sets out a scenario, right? Like, if. If Trump decides now to pardon people, especially the people who committed violent assaults against police officers, if he decides to do this, what that basically says to Trump supporters and Trump aides or anyone else is if you commit a crime, but you do it for Donald Trump, you can do it because he'll just pardon you. And so, you know, Matt was saying, imagine Cash Patel goes into the FBI and starts ordering a bunch of FBI agents to do illegal surveillance on all of Trump's political enemies in secret, and they don't want to do it, but he says, oh, no, don't worry if you're breaking the law. Like, Donald Trump's got you, or a Trump aide or a Trump goon goes into Congress and shoots a member of the opposition, you know, and you're in D.C. and it's federal jurisdiction, and then Trump just pardons them. Right. And, like, not to say that that's gonna happen, but, like, this is where it leads to start pardoning people who have broken the law, some for violent crimes, just for political reasons.

[Jason Mantzoukas]

Yeah. And those are obviously extreme examples, but I thought Iglesias piece was smart in that it recognized the reality right now, which is usually after a president is elected, there's some sort of, like, rallying around the flag effect of people are like, let's give him a chance. You know, let's come together for the country. And that's not really what we're seeing this time. We are seeing a lot of people, even Trump supporters, scared of him. Right. Like Tim Cook giving a million dollars personally to his inauguration. Big tech sucking up, cutting big checks to the inauguration. It goes beyond just them doing it for business reasons. They are scared shitless of him. And even his powerful supporters will not criticize anything about Trump. And, like, you know, the way he spelled it out in that piece makes you think.

[June Diane Raphael]

Yeah. And, you know, part of me thinks, okay, Trump, hopefully here is a lame Duck. And at some point, you know, what is the utility of constantly, you know, us talking about Trump, going after Trump? Well, first of all, he's like the president for the next four years and his agenda is going to matter what he does. Right. But also, I think the Republican Party has learned from Trump that this kind of, you know, just loyalty above all else, like this is the way, this is the way you hack the system. Right. Like partisanship above all, stick together, just excuse anything possible. And so even when Trump's long gone from the scene, they continue this kind of attitude, this kind of strategy like that. This is what we're going to get.

[Jason Mantzoukas]

And for the midterms too, right. We make them all comment on it and vote on it.

[June Diane Raphael]

Yep.

[Jason Mantzoukas]

Right.

[Paul Scheer]

Well, that's, that's where I think there's some, some little glimmer of hope. Right. Because all of that's true. Right. Like Republicans, they're not afraid of right wing media because right wing media is on their side. They're not afraid of the mainstream media, cuz they've now discovered that it's mattering less and less and less. Right. They're only afraid of Donald Trump. Donald Trump's the only one that can hurt them. But that's not true of a vulnerable House Republican who is up for reelection and just wants to keep his or her job. Right. Like there are still places where the reality distortion of Trump can be broken.

[June Diane Raphael]

Yeah. Which brings us to our next topic because for the next year, which is basically all the time, they have two years really to the midterms, they're gonna try to pass everything they can because as most parties do, they expect that potentially they could lose the House. Right. Maybe the Senate, but the House is definitely in play in 2026. So talk about their, their big plans for 2025. Basically one giant bill that includes everything from tax cuts for the rich to money for mass deportations. Some Republicans, mostly in the Senate, think it would be easier to do immigration first and better to do immigration first in one bill and then taxes in a second bill. Here's what Trump said about it on Hugh Hewitt show.

[Donald Trump]

Well, I favor one bill. I also want to get everything passed. And you know, there are some people that don't necessarily agree with it, so I'm open to that. Also, my preference is one big, as I say, one big beautiful bill. Now to do that takes longer, you know, to submit it takes longer actually, but, but, so it's a longer process. I would say I'd live with that.

[Paul Scheer]

Build back. Horrible.

[June Diane Raphael]

Yeah, we're there. Again, it seems like this is just a question of which path is more politically feasible for Republicans, one bill or two. But what do you guys think are the considerations are here?

[Paul Scheer]

So there are some friction points on immigration which we'll get to in a minute, but immigration seems easier for them than taxes. Taxes are hard because taxes get back to kind of good old fashioned Republican politics, which is the base versus the pro business funders. But. So they think they could do immigration first and get a win on the border and they can keep everybody in line, which would be good. They want to get a quick win on the board, but they think they need immigration because tax is going to be so tough given they only have a one seat majority. And that actually could become a, a two or three seat majority once they had these special elections in a couple weeks. So the question is, do they jeopardize a quick win that they could get on the border in order to make a tax victory later in the year more feasible? Because they can use both to kind of wrangle people and sweeten the deal to get some people in.

[Jason Mantzoukas]

Man, if I were them and reading the political winds, I would say Democrats are scared shitless on immigration. And of all the things where we might have a chance of getting 60 votes in the Senate, this might be it. And I might go for that. But I mean, depending.

[June Diane Raphael]

Oh, they won't. They, it's it. That would be reconciliation too.

[Jason Mantzoukas]

Well, right. I'm saying like, if you want to do multiple bills because you're only gonna have one or two shots of reconciliation. So breaking into pieces requires you to at some point go through the regular process.

[June Diane Raphael]

No, basically there's two reconciliation shells that they have.

[Jason Mantzoukas]

That's what I'm saying. You can do two reconciliation shells. The, the, the, the, the counterpoint of like, do a bunch of bills get a bunch of wins?

[June Diane Raphael]

Oh, bunch. No, I think it's a question of like, do you, can you do one reconciliation that's just immigration and then a second one. That's everything.

[Paul Scheer]

Right.

[Jason Mantzoukas]

But if you look at what they're talking about, depending on what you read, there's proposals that this could be immigration, energy policy, tax cuts, maybe military spending, and then God knows what members of Congress try to jam in there or various lobbyists or whatever. So I was just reacting to Lovett's point that like, I do think their strongest political footing is immigration.

[Paul Scheer]

Right. And so do they want to spend it and get the win or do they want to use it to try to get some of their more Unpopular tax policies across.

[June Diane Raphael]

The other thing they have to deal with is for taxes, there's a cliff at the end of the year. So if they don't get so say they do immigration and that takes up a lot of time. I think this is probably why they, one reason why they want to do both together. So they take a bunch of time immigration, they get a quick win and then they only have X amount of months left till the end of the year. Because if the Trump tax cuts from last time are set to expire at the end of the year, they don't do anything on taxes. They can't agree on something that means every single person in America, their income taxes go up. So like tough talk about, talk about cliffs that like force you to do things.

[Paul Scheer]

And, and so there's, so there's that part of it. And then they've also, there's another side of this which is there's they, they have to raise the debt ceiling and they've promised in order to get the, the keep the government open over the holidays, they promised $2.5 trillion in cuts on top of that. So they have, they have like, they have, they have built for themselves quite a, I don't know what you'd call.

[Jason Mantzoukas]

It, bear trap spending disaster. I mean, extending the tax cuts. The Trump tax cut is, the price tag from The CBO is 4.6 trillion over 10 years. So there's no way they're gonna be able to pay for this.

[June Diane Raphael]

Not. And some of them don't give a shit. Right. And don't care about paying for it. But the Chip Roys of the world and the House and the Freedom Caucus people, they've basically, I mean, to your point, they've basically said, no, we're not.

[Paul Scheer]

And this is where this is for some of them, it truly is. Like, this is why they're there. This is what they believe. It is genuinely motivating. It is a sincerely held belief.

[June Diane Raphael]

This is where they don't really care about Donald Trump.

[Paul Scheer]

Right. It's the one issue. It's not.

[June Diane Raphael]

Right. Like Chip Roy and some of these people are like, they're fine Donald Trump being mad at them because they're like, look, we're here to, you know, eliminate government as much as we can and, but like 5 trillion, I mean some of the pay fors that they've been throwing around the tariffs, which is just a tax on consumers, repeal all the clean energy investments and clean energy jobs that Joe Biden helped create with the inflation Reduction Act.

[Paul Scheer]

And by the way, just one Note on those, most of those are red states.

[June Diane Raphael]

Yep.

[Paul Scheer]

And a lot of that money is already out the door.

[June Diane Raphael]

Repeal student loan forgiveness and get some money from there and then cut the entire Education Department. They're looking to close down the Education Department. Food stamps, Medicaid, another 40 billion they can get by deciding that Medicare and Medicaid cannot cover Ozempic or wegovy or some of those, those new. Yeah.

[Jason Mantzoukas]

Coming for the king from my cold, dead hands.

[June Diane Raphael]

And then, you know, some of the idiots are still. Even though, you know, Trump has publicly ruled it out. And other Republican leaders, you know, they've talked about Medicare, Social Security and all the rest.

[Jason Mantzoukas]

Well, that's the rub. That's the only way you can actually pay for a price tag this high is to go after entitlements.

[June Diane Raphael]

I don't know how they're. I mean, we'll see. We're gonna have a whole year to talk about this. But I don't know how they're going to square this circle.

[Paul Scheer]

Yeah.

[June Diane Raphael]

Many circles that they have to square.

[Paul Scheer]

There's. You can get, look, we Democrats do. Republicans do it. There's some budget trickery they can do. Right. They can sunset certain things instead of a new cliff down the road. Like, there are ways to get around it.

[June Diane Raphael]

But again, like you getting that by Chip Roy and those guys.

[Paul Scheer]

But yeah, so there's that. But then there's also just Donald Trump saying that Medicare and Social Security are off the table means you're pushing for steeper and actually more difficult, far more difficult cuts to get through Congress on Medicaid, on food stamps, on veterans. By the way, they talked about cutting veterans.

[June Diane Raphael]

And the debt limit thing makes it harder. So the debt limit expires in late spring, early summer, which is I think one of the reasons they're talking about April or May to get this on Trump's desk, which, like, good luck with that. Now, if you do debt limit within a reconciliation bill like either of these bills they're talking about, then Republicans can lift the debt limit or eliminate the debt limit on their own. Right. They don't need Democrats because Democrats aren't going to vote for this because it's 51 votes. But if they can agree to include the debt limit in one of these bills or just one bill, if they do one bill, then they have to negotiate with Democrats because then you have the 60 vote threshold. And so like, but the hard thing about doing the debt limit in the reconciliation bill is again, the Freedom Caucus, because they're going to be like, oh, we're going to raise the debt limit and spend $5 trillion on tax cuts.

[Jason Mantzoukas]

It's just getting them all to agree, even just the Republicans in the House on everything you write down in a bill about all these various issue areas seems almost impossible to me, especially with a pretty weak speaker.

[June Diane Raphael]

Do you guys have any thoughts on like, so Democrats don't have the votes to stop any of this and you know, we can't call them feckless for it. They don't have the votes. Everyone should know Democrats cannot stop anything in Congress right now. Just they don't. They can't. They can try to make it more unpopular and it's set up for the midterms to try to take back the House and maybe the Senate. Do you have any ideas on what to focus on? You could see many bad messages.

[Jason Mantzoukas]

Yeah, oh yeah.

[June Diane Raphael]

That are, that are recycled from the last 10 years, 20 years, you know, like it's chaos again in the House. You know, like.

[Paul Scheer]

Can I just make one pitch though, please? Just one thing. I just like nobody say the phrase tax scam again. It's, I don't understand the tax scam. It's nonsense words.

[Jason Mantzoukas]

How did we land on that?

[Paul Scheer]

It must have tested well in some messaging document, but it sounds fucking stupid. I hate tax scam. Look, I think the, look, I think you can. They're trying to cut Social Security, Medicare, Medicaid, basic services for people in order to pay for tax cuts for their wealthiest benefactors, friends and cronies in the biggest corporations, shipping jobs overseas. There's some like basic stuff you can do. My question is only like, how much should Democrats get ahead of the part of this which is that some of the tax cuts, small portion of it, but some of the Trump tax cuts were tax cuts for the middle class, for the working class. Right. And so you need to get out there and say here's our proposal, right? We would love to extend the tax breaks for the middle class. We'd love to attend the tax breaks for working people in this country. And we'd love to attach it to a raise in the minimum wage. Donald Trump says he's for working. And by the way, you want to do no tax on tips. Here's our proposal for no taxes on tips. We'll do all the middle class stuff for sure. And here's alien, we know how to pay for it. Now it's your turn. Because I think like that to me is where they're going to try to say the Democrats are for a big tax increase.

[June Diane Raphael]

It's as simple as like, they want to cut taxes for rich people and they want you to pay for it. That's it. You get the bill. It's not free. It's a huge giveaway to them. You get the bill. That's it.

[Jason Mantzoukas]

I mean, like, yeah, the 2017 tax cut, the households with incomes in the top 1% got an average tax cut of $60,000 in 2025, compared to the average tax cut of less than $500 for households in the bottom 60%, according to the Tax Policy Center. So you just have that. We are spending. We are burning trillions of dollars on tax cuts for the richest people in the country. How do you pay for that? On the back end, it's going to be cuts to Social Security, Medicare programs you care about. I also think you.

[Paul Scheer]

And potentially tariffs, which is a big tax.

[Jason Mantzoukas]

Yes, yes. And I do think you can find. I think we should look for some kind of process point about how bad this process is. Like, Elon Musk was really mad about the length of the omnibus spending bill back in December.

[June Diane Raphael]

Right.

[Jason Mantzoukas]

Remember then they all were really happy that it went from 1500 pages to 100 pages. Like, wait till you read this one, buddy.

[June Diane Raphael]

I know. I was thinking that when I was reading it today. Like, the whole. Yeah. One thing we all missed, hopefully you all missed it over the holiday break, was the. There was the omnibus spending bill that almost shut the government down because Elon almost shut the government down and then. And then Mike Johnson barely won the speakership. So, like, if you think anything's going to be easy to pass through the House with Elon. To the point about Elon, though, like, I do think that, like, we gotta make this more vivid for people. Trump now has a cabinet full of billionaires and fuck, it's like you're either a billionaire or a former Fox News host.

[Jason Mantzoukas]

Literally.

[June Diane Raphael]

Yeah, yeah. That's basically the whole cabinet. And then you got Elon there. You got the other tech bros. I would, like, have pictures of them with what kind of tax cut they're gonna get. We can calculate it. Elon's getting this many billion. This one's Scott Bessemer. Whatever. The fucking Treasury Secretary is getting this much like, we gotta make it proud gay American. I just, like, we used to do this. We used to do this back in like 2010 and 12 with fucking like the. You know, how much Warren Buffett's getting versus his secretary. Warren Buffett actually offered that example. Like, why don't we do that shit anymore?

[Jason Mantzoukas]

Remember the Cornhusker kickback?

[Paul Scheer]

Oh, yeah.

[Jason Mantzoukas]

That's chestnut. In 2010, as part of the debate around the Affordable Care act, the Obama administration or the Democrats are trying to get votes from Senator Ben Nelson of Nebraska. And basically the bill, as one written in one version, gave massive subsidies to the state of Nebraska to try to get his vote. And it became a huge scandal, an example of pork barrel spending, and it ultimately got stripped out. And I think the Cornhusker kickback was part of the reason Nelson didn't run for reelection in 2012. So you gotta find that thing. You know, there will be some dirty pool being played by John Thune and Johnson and the congressional leaders.

[Paul Scheer]

Also the Cornhusker kickback, he was fighting for a kickback for Cornhuskers. Seems like it should have been good.

[Jason Mantzoukas]

Why wouldn't you like that?

[Paul Scheer]

Don't you want your Cornhusker center to fight for Cornhusker kickbacks?

[Jason Mantzoukas]

Tip O'Neill did for his whole career.

[June Diane Raphael]

Yeah, I bet. Another reason they want to do it in one bill too is because they are hoping to bait Democrats by including some of the worst sort of culture war stuff in this bill. Right. And immigration is obviously the prime example. And they, I'm sure they want Democrats to focus all of our outrage on that and then just quietly do the tax cuts in the background. Because, you know, the hardcore MAGA people, they don't give a shit about the tax cuts. Like, I know we have told ourselves that it's like they're cutting this to pay for this and that is what they're doing. But the real maga, the Laura Loomers and the Steve Bannons, they don't give a shit about the tax cuts. They just hate immigrants and a lot of other kind of people. And they just, you know, they want to weaponize the Justice Department. They want to go after immigrants. And so I do think that they will try to push the tax cuts to sort of the, like the back rooms. Right. And just negotiate that and then like throw out bait for the rest of us to like, freak out about.

[Paul Scheer]

Which, by the way, is also normal old school Republican politics.

[June Diane Raphael]

Yep, that sure is. It sure is.

[Jason Mantzoukas]

They're also smart enough to know that you think you have two years until the midterms, but you really only have a couple months because you're, you know, things happen. Maybe a member of Congress dies. Right. There's an issue there about that. The size of the majority from natural causes, I'm saying, happened at Ted Kennedy from the Democrats. And if you believe this public stories.

[Paul Scheer]

Gun down in his prime foreign policy.

[Jason Mantzoukas]

Crisis events yeah, foreign policy crisis like, who knows? So.

[June Diane Raphael]

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[June Diane Raphael]

So one person who's already inserted himself in the debate over Trump's immigration policy and basically everything else is our pal Elon Musk. An intra Maga fight broke out over the holidays that pitted Elon and the new Maga Tech Bros against the old guard MAGA immigrant haters like Laura Loomer and Steve Bannon. It all started when Loomer criticized Trump's choice for White House advisor on artificial intelligence because he is an Indian immigrant who's been a big supporter of the H1B visa program. And that is a program which allows American companies to hire skilled workers from overseas. Elon weighed in with his support for the program, which he's used at his companies. I think he said he was an H1B recipient himself when he was first an immigrant, before he was a citizen here. Then things got crazy. Bannon said that if Musk doesn't watch himself, quote, we're going to rip your face face off. For his part, Elon told H1B opponents to, quote, fuck yourself in the face and endorsed a post that referred to American workers as, quote, retarded. Vivek Ramaswamy then jumped in to argue that American workers are lazy because, quote, a culture that venerates Zack and Slater over Screech in Saved by the Bell or Stefan over Steve Urkel in Family Matters will not produce the best engineering.

[Paul Scheer]

Incredible.

[June Diane Raphael]

Trump finally settled the whole thing for now by coming out in favor of the H1B program, saying that he's used it too. But we think he's confused because he's used the other H1B program that is more about lower skilled workers that you can bring in for her hotels.

[Paul Scheer]

No. I don't know. Well, no, but H1B, if you go look at it, it's actually defined really strangely. It says for H1B that it is for skilled workers and fashion models. And so I actually think it.

[June Diane Raphael]

Oh, that's right. It is the fashion model.

[Paul Scheer]

And so I think it might be because Melania and others, but Melania, what.

[June Diane Raphael]

Do you make of this fight? Levitt?

[Paul Scheer]

Beautiful marketplace of ideas. What I thought when I saw it is that it's as if all these guys were kind of standing in an open field and then somebody stepped on a twig and they all started shooting. You know, it's like the piece broke. The. The thing that was interesting to me is like, first of all, it's like, it's interesting just to see Elon Musk turn his, like, kind of way of talking about politics as somebody who is new to politics, which is just like, there's two kinds of people, your friends and retarded pedophiles. It's like, that's how we talk about politics. Terrific. But if you put the name calling part of it aside, it was interesting to watch Elon Musk, like, he said. He said, think of it like a pro sports team. If you want your team to win the championship, you need to recruit top talent, wherever they may be. That enables the whole team to win, which is not just an argum for the H1B visa. It's an argument for Immigration. And he found himself, just because he happened to have experience with this one kind of immigration, defending the concept of immigration and because he is new to this, he doesn't realize how anathema that is to all of these anti immigrant right wing zealots.

[June Diane Raphael]

He has, he and others in the tech world have let themselves believe that the opposition to all the talk about immigration from Trump and MAGA has really just been about the border and people who've come here who have been, you know, violent criminals and the Lake and Riley stuff and all that, like, they let themselves believe that was the case, or at least some of them have. And now and some of the just unbelievably straight up racist shit that was said over the holiday break about this from some of the Trump people was fucking wild. They were just like, to your point, when you said it, we're like, imagine we're all on the same team. People on the MAGA people were like, no, we're not on the same team. We don't want them on our team.

[Jason Mantzoukas]

No, we're racist.

[June Diane Raphael]

They should be in another country, they shouldn't be here.

[Paul Scheer]

And like, this is a rift. This is not new to Tech Bros vs Maga world. This is a Republican fault line. Like when George W. Bush proposed immigration reform, comprehensive immigration reform, he included a guest worker program. Because the free market, pro immigrant, pro business right has always understood that when you give the base the enforcement and border security they demand, you have to, for the sake of the economy, acknowledge in the law that our businesses and corporations run on cheap immigrant labor. And so this has always been the friction point in this debate for Republicans.

[Jason Mantzoukas]

I just think we need to spend one more minute on the Vivek Ramaswamy Twitter screen because I think it was written from inside a locker that he had been stuffed in sometime in the 90s.

[June Diane Raphael]

He was like, we're a culture that elevates the prom king over the math.

[Jason Mantzoukas]

More movies like Whiplash. Fewer reruns of Friends. More math tutoring. Fewer sleepovers. Like, what are you talking about?

[June Diane Raphael]

Fewer sleepovers.

[Jason Mantzoukas]

More weekend science competitions, fewer Saturday morning cartoons. You are such a loser.

[June Diane Raphael]

And this and this led David Brooks in the Atlantic to write a piece titled, vivek Ramaswamy is not invited to my sleepover. Okay, that's real. That's real.

[Jason Mantzoukas]

Wait, does he have.

[Paul Scheer]

And by the way, I think I have the credibility in this issue as the person who was at the Saturday math competitions and was not at the sleepovers and someone who was very clearly a screech desperately trying to figure out what it. What. What are all these Zacks? I'm sitting at table two fucking Zacks.

[June Diane Raphael]

No, let. I. I just. You know, someone pointed this out on Twitter that clearly he did not really watch Saved by the Bell, because if you had, like, I watched every episode about three times. Zack did better on his SATs than Screech. It was a whole. It was a whole episode.

[Paul Scheer]

Yes, yes. The. The big grand reveal that Screech is also stupid was tough. That. That Zack is not just lazy, but also brilliant. Terr. Thanks a lot. Kind of make him Vivek's point.

[Jason Mantzoukas]

That's America in real life. Screeches. Life took a dark turn, too. And Mark Paul Goslinger seems like a pretty nice, normal guy.

[June Diane Raphael]

Anyway, anything else about that?

[Jason Mantzoukas]

This can be our Sputnik moment. He actually put that. The great thing about this tweet from Vivek is it was universally destroyed. The far right hated it, the right hated it. The left mocked it. It was a beautiful thing.

[June Diane Raphael]

One other interesting thing on this is that, like, some folks on the left, like Bernie Sanders have been. They basically sided with the Bannons on this one. Not by being openly xenophobic at all. I'm not saying that. But in fairness to them, people on the left have been complaining about the H1B visa program, like, long before Trump.

[Jason Mantzoukas]

That's exploitative to work.

[June Diane Raphael]

And yes, Sanders argument is it allows companies to hire foreign workers for less money, and then they have more power over those workers because if they leave the job, they can be forced to leave the country. So they use the term which might be going a bit far, which is like, they're indentured servants, you know. But Feiner Siberni, he then called for reforms like increasing guest worker fees for corporations, raising minimum wage for guest workers, allowing them to easily switch jobs, which I think are all good reforms to the programs. But I do think, like, a lot of folks on the left and center left, like, jumped in to be like, well, Elon Musk is right on this one, stuff like that. But if we're talking thinking about the economy now and we're thinking about sort of inequality and the angst that sort of drove this election for a lot of people who drove a lot of people to vote for Trump. I do think it's worth pointing out that, like, Elon Musk and some of these tech founders and tech CEOs, like, they like having cheap labor. They do. One reason they like the H1B visa program is because, you know it's gonna help them get richer. And I think if we say that a lot of these guys, a lot of these Elon folks and the oligarchs who are now running our country, when they come out for something, it's because it's usually gonna make them a lot of fucking money.

[Paul Scheer]

Yeah.

[June Diane Raphael]

Bernie also always think you can be for immigration.

[Paul Scheer]

Yes.

[June Diane Raphael]

More immigration in this country and still recognize what their motivations are.

[Paul Scheer]

Well, Bernie has always been against H1B is a form of guest worker, as is the farm worker programs that have been always. That Bush has been proposed, that were debated when Obama was proposing comprehensive immigration reform. And I'm not sure if he's always been completely against it, but Bernie's always been, I think, ideologically and ethically opposed to them because they are really ultimately about creating kind of second class status for a certain kind of worker. And the point that like, I can't remember which right wing ghoul in between their racist rants went and looked at the entry level positions that had been filled by H1BBs. I think it was Loomer, but like, yeah, like these are. This is supposed to be. You can't find the person in the US and you're gonna pay them what you would pay a U.S. worker. And obviously, as Elon knows, and as all these right wing people know, that is not how it is used. It is used to fill a bunch of positions for less pay.

[June Diane Raphael]

Yeah. Okay, we're going to take a quick break. One quick thing before we do that, though. Four years after the insurrection, we're still examining the reach and the limits of presidential power. This week on Strict Scrutiny, Leah, Melissa and Kate break down what it actually looks like, why it matters, and how we've seen checks on it from sometimes very unexpected places. Tune into this very timely episode now only on the Strict Scrutiny feed. Foreign this show is sponsored by BetterHelp. What do you want your 2025 story to be, John?

[Paul Scheer]

Oh, wow. What? Do what? It's, it's. I want it to be the most beautiful, beautiful story ever told.

[June Diane Raphael]

Wow.

[Paul Scheer]

I want it to be an American story, John.

[June Diane Raphael]

American story.

[Paul Scheer]

I want it to be a story with a beginning, a middle, and an end.

[June Diane Raphael]

So you're okay, that's good. That's a good start.

[Paul Scheer]

Here's the thing that I keep coming back to. I don't know if you ever heard anybody say this before. I just think it's not about wringing your hands. It's gonna be about. That's what 2525 is gonna be about for me. It's About. What's the term rolling up my sleeves? Look at, look at those.

[June Diane Raphael]

You can't see this, but mine are already rolled up.

[Paul Scheer]

You can't. You can't roll up your sleeves while you're wringing your hands.

[June Diane Raphael]

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[Paul Scheer]

I like that. I like that.

[June Diane Raphael]

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[Paul Scheer]

I love that.

[June Diane Raphael]

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[Paul Scheer]

Yeah, I mean, I haven't noticed any difference. But as long as you feel different, you know what?

[June Diane Raphael]

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[Paul Scheer]

Right?

[June Diane Raphael]

It's for me.

[Paul Scheer]

Right? For sure, for sure, for sure.

[June Diane Raphael]

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[June Diane Raphael]

So, Tommy, this wasn't Elon's only notable foray into politics over the holidays. He's been busy. Yeah, he's now going. He's taken the show on the road from the US to other countries.

[Jason Mantzoukas]

He's going on tour. I do think this is an important thing to watch. Ben and I are going to talk about this tomorrow on Pod Save the World. So we all watched Elon turn Twitter to a propaganda tool for Trump and then dump, what, a hundred some odd Million into pro Trump super PACs. But now he's starting to mess around in other countries. And so I think it started in Germany where he was, he has been attacking the Chancellor, this guy, Olaf Scholz, Social Democrat, for a long time. But then over the break, he endorsed the AfD, which is a very extreme, super far right, pro Putin party in Germany. In the uk, Elon has been attacking Keir Starmer, the new Prime Minister, Labour Prime Minister. But it got really ugly recently. Elon said that Starmer was, quote, complicit in the rape of Britain and that he should be arrested. And then he also said he was deeply complicit in the mass rapes in exchange for votes. He's talking about this horrific, horrific scandal where a decade or two ago a bunch of young girls, like 1400 or more girls were sexually abused in this awful, it's called the grooming gang scandal. Won't get into all the details of it, but Elon is dredging that back up to attack Starmer. And then I think just today Elon went after he started boosting far right candidates in Canada and he's also been boosting far right parties and candidates in the uk he met with Nigel Farage, I think in Mar a Lago, and according to Farage, said he might spend up to $100 million on behalf of the Reform Party in the UK which would be just an absolutely unprecedented amount of money and probably illegal. So.

[June Diane Raphael]

And then turned on Farage and said.

[Jason Mantzoukas]

And then turned on Farage that he needs to go because Farage doesn't support this guy Tommy Robinson, who is this right wing Islamophobic. Basically, he's like a mix between a soccer hooligan and kind of a far right agit prop guy in Britain, whatever. But it's a huge deal because Germany's got elections in February. Canada has elections sometime later this year.

[June Diane Raphael]

Keir Starmer, where they will vote on whether they want to be the 51st state.

[Jason Mantzoukas]

Yeah, they will vote on whether to join America officially.

[June Diane Raphael]

Honestly, we haven't even talked about. Oh, I forgot to. I forgot that.

[Paul Scheer]

Honestly, it's one way to make the Senate fucking work for us.

[June Diane Raphael]

For those who don't know, Donald Trump has been musing on truth, social about Canada becoming the 51st state, potentially bringing Greenland, annexing Greenland, or letting Greenland choose to be the 51st, or letting Greenland choose to be part of the United States.

[Jason Mantzoukas]

And we're gonna take back the Panama.

[June Diane Raphael]

Canal and we're gonna take back the Panama Canal.

[Paul Scheer]

So no bad ideas in a brainstorm.

[Jason Mantzoukas]

The Greenland thing and the Panama Canal are kind of oldies but goodies.

[Paul Scheer]

But Carter's dead now. We can get the canal back.

[Jason Mantzoukas]

Canada, the 51st state, is kind of a funny new wrinkle.

[June Diane Raphael]

Don Jr. Was in Greenland today.

[Jason Mantzoukas]

I know.

[Paul Scheer]

Was he?

[June Diane Raphael]

Yeah. But apparently it was like, not an official business. It's for content for his podcast. Said a source familiar said this.

[Paul Scheer]

Hey, guys. Hey, everybody. It's cold.

[June Diane Raphael]

Not everything here is white for the same reason.

[Paul Scheer]

Right. I've dropped something.

[June Diane Raphael]

It is really hard to find.

[Jason Mantzoukas]

What were we talking about? Anyway?

[June Diane Raphael]

Sorry, Elon.

[Jason Mantzoukas]

No, I just think it's really bad. I mean, Twitter is a powerful tool. Although, did you notice that Elon recently said that he's going to tweak the algorithm to make it a more positive place.

[Paul Scheer]

Great.

[June Diane Raphael]

Yeah. This is after he called American workers retarded.

[Jason Mantzoukas]

Yeah. And elected Donald Trump or helped elect Donald Trump.

[Paul Scheer]

I'd like to see more content about Jews being good at business.

[Jason Mantzoukas]

But like, he's messing around in these elections in these foreign countries. None of these leaders know how to deal with it. They're all kind of like, don't feed the trolls. Try to ignore him and hope he goes away. He's not going to go away. But then more broadly, like, the G7 is a mess right now. Like, Trudeau resigned today. They've got an election coming up. The French government is in this cycle of like collapse and then caretaker prime minister and collapse, and they don't have elections until 2027. The German government dissolved. They're about to have an election. The South Koreans. The president declared martial law. He did like a self coup. Now the cops are trying to arrest the guy, but he won't surrender himself. So they're trying to figure that out. We're obviously a mess. Labor has kind of stumbled out of the gate and the most stable part of the G7 meeting will be the Mussolini fan running Italy. And it's just like, what the fuck is going on here?

[June Diane Raphael]

Goes back to my liberals who are like, maybe we should leave the country after Trump. It's like, where are you going to go? Where are you going to go? Not a lot of. Not a lot of safe harbors out there.

[Paul Scheer]

Yeah, that Joe Biden farewell international tour is not going to go so well.

[June Diane Raphael]

He's going. He's going to Italy.

[Jason Mantzoukas]

Meeting with the Pope.

[Paul Scheer]

Oh, yeah, he's going to see with the Pope. Great. Have a good time with the Pope.

[June Diane Raphael]

Tommy, are we going to get like a right wing government in Canada too now, or are we going to get like A right wing, like a Trump puppet there, who then decides he wants to reunify with the United States. Well, North America.

[Jason Mantzoukas]

Trudeau is just stepping down early, I think, to give. Give his party that, the liberals, a chance of, you know, righting the ship before elections. I think they're gonna be in October or September, so we got a while. But it's likely that one of these far right guys will get win.

[June Diane Raphael]

Think Trudeau wants a pod?

[Jason Mantzoukas]

I don't know. He's been in here. He sat at that very seat.

[June Diane Raphael]

There you go.

[Jason Mantzoukas]

We talked with him.

[June Diane Raphael]

Well, contact us. Let us know.

[Jason Mantzoukas]

Let us know what you're up to.

[June Diane Raphael]

All right, before we go. On Saturday, in a ceremony at the White House, President Biden awarded the Presidential Medal of Freedom, the nation's highest civilian honor, to 18 individuals. Among them, former Democratic presidential nominee Hillary Clinton, NBA hall of Famer, Magic Johnson, celebrity chef Jose Andres, Bill Nye the Science Guy, philanthropist and lead singer of YouTube, Bono and Democratic mega donor George Soros, and cricket investor George Soros. Just to, you know, well earned.

[Paul Scheer]

Medal of Freedom. If I do say so now.

[June Diane Raphael]

There's a good one.

[Jason Mantzoukas]

Thank you, sir.

[June Diane Raphael]

There's a good one. Got one. Right. Allow us to commend Joe Biden on this. Can you. Can you, Tommy, can you explain to the audience what these medals are and why presidents give them out?

[Jason Mantzoukas]

Not in a way that'll make sense, but I'll try. I mean, it's the highest civilian honor. It's bestowed by the President basically at his or her discretion. The current.

[Paul Scheer]

Nice end her or her. There.

[Jason Mantzoukas]

Well, thank you.

[Paul Scheer]

I mean, look, maybe on the moon one day.

[Jason Mantzoukas]

Jesus Christ. The current Presidential Medal of Freedom, it exists in this form thanks to jfk, who updated a previous honor that was established by Harry Truman. But it doesn't make any sense. You can give it to living people, you can give it to dead people, you can give it to foreign nationals. Colin Powell got it twice for some reason. You can add a with distinction flag with no real explanation for what that means.

[June Diane Raphael]

Oh, yeah. Biden also just gave it to rfk.

[Paul Scheer]

Yeah. Which I liked. I thought it was a cool move.

[June Diane Raphael]

Yeah. Just sort of sticking.

[Paul Scheer]

Now Trump can't do it.

[June Diane Raphael]

And George Romney, Mitt Romney's father, too.

[Jason Mantzoukas]

Lots of posthumous awards.

[June Diane Raphael]

Lots of. Lots of posthumous.

[Paul Scheer]

Took a little pardon in there for some of those people.

[June Diane Raphael]

Yeah. I was gonna say, like, what a fucking consolation prize.

[Paul Scheer]

Yeah.

[June Diane Raphael]

Liz Cheney got the. Liz Cheney didn't get the Medal of Freedom. She got the one that was like, just below it, which also. Which by the way, pissed off some resistance. They were so mad. They're like, how dare he give Magic Johnson the Medal of Freedom and Liz Cheney, our hero?

[Paul Scheer]

But it's also just sort of like.

[June Diane Raphael]

It's like, I bet Liz Cheney could use a pardon more than the metal.

[Paul Scheer]

Why is there a silver in this? What are we doing?

[Jason Mantzoukas]

What is this? That's the question.

[June Diane Raphael]

If it's going to be. I will say if it's because, you know, Obama gave out a whole bunch of them, too, right?

[Jason Mantzoukas]

The most of any president.

[June Diane Raphael]

Obama gave one to Biden, and Biden did not return the favor.

[Paul Scheer]

That's interesting.

[June Diane Raphael]

Yeah, well, I guess they're not really.

[Paul Scheer]

They're not really on speaking terms, I suppose, after all that's happened.

[June Diane Raphael]

But the process is just like White House staff, some. Some interagency White House, they all get together and they talk about it and they drop a list and that's it. Like. Like, if you wanna make it special and a revered honor, like, you kinda gotta have some kind of independent body that is just like, hey, President, here's what we go with. You know, like, David Rubenstein got one who's like, his house is. Yeah.

[Jason Mantzoukas]

He loaned Biden his Nantucket House. Yeah.

[June Diane Raphael]

Like what? Come on.

[Paul Scheer]

The Carlyle Group. Yeah, that's great.

[Jason Mantzoukas]

In his first term, George H.W. bush gave a Medal of Freedom to Ella Fitzgerald and Strom Thurmond. Make that make sense. In 2009, Obama gave one to Stephen Hawking and Desmond Tutu. In 2011, Obama gave one to Bob Gates and Yo Yo Ma. Like, what is this price?

[Paul Scheer]

It's just a cool thing you can get. I do think it's fun that you can do them posthumously, which sort of means you can go all the way back, right? Like, why not?

[June Diane Raphael]

And this.

[Jason Mantzoukas]

Give one to Jesus.

[Paul Scheer]

Joan of Arc. Joan of Arc, Yeah. Jesus. Yes.

[June Diane Raphael]

And there was a whole. Yeah, there was a little dust up because Trump infamously bestowed the Medal of Freedom to Rush Limbaugh and then to, like, Jim Jordan and Devin Nunes. It's like, come on.

[Jason Mantzoukas]

George Bush gave it to Bill Cosby.

[June Diane Raphael]

Ooh, that one. You might.

[Paul Scheer]

Well, that just looked bad in hindsight.

[June Diane Raphael]

Ben Jacobs, reporter Ben Jacobs on Twitter said that the collection of people that Biden awarded the Medal of Freedom to on Saturday looked like the National Heroes Garden for MSNBC viewers.

[Jason Mantzoukas]

That's a great joke. It's a great joke.

[June Diane Raphael]

It's like. Like Hillary Clinton and George Soros a little too on the nose. Little too on the nose.

[Paul Scheer]

What was the meeting where they're like, no, Liz Cheney gets one tier below. I don't get it.

[June Diane Raphael]

I don't either.

[Jason Mantzoukas]

It's like. It's a weird hodgepodge of, like, political leader, like, George Romney got one. Ash Carter, who passed away, was Defense.

[June Diane Raphael]

Secretary Benny Lou Hamer. That's a good one. That's a great one.

[Jason Mantzoukas]

Ralph Lauren, great one.

[June Diane Raphael]

Jose Andres, great one.

[Jason Mantzoukas]

Yeah. Give that man a peace prize.

[Paul Scheer]

But Ralph. Ralph Lauren, that's the one that. You think the Ralph Laurens are great when you like those.

[Jason Mantzoukas]

Well, there's just. It's.

[Paul Scheer]

It's weird. Just nice.

[June Diane Raphael]

Oh, you're saying that's weird.

[Jason Mantzoukas]

Oh, it's weird.

[Paul Scheer]

I thought it's a great one.

[June Diane Raphael]

No, no.

[Paul Scheer]

Jose goes for a boat.

[Jason Mantzoukas]

Jose is a great one.

[Paul Scheer]

I don't have a problem with Ralph Lauren, but I don't. I don't. I mean, you know, I suppose it's nice to wear on a boat, but I don't think it's on the level of Desmond Tuccio.

[Donald Trump]

I'm there with you.

[Jason Mantzoukas]

I'm there. You know that Bill Belichick turned it down. Donald Trump offered it to him. He accepted it. Then January six happened. So Shout out, Bill. I guess January six changed one thing.

[June Diane Raphael]

Well, next year. Next year it's going to be 18 people who were all fucking Capitol riots.

[Paul Scheer]

Yeah.

[Jason Mantzoukas]

And that choir is going to sing the Shama. He'll get one.

[Paul Scheer]

It'd be very. It's gonna be a very long time. Yeah. Mike Pence with you for the duration.

[June Diane Raphael]

Anyway, that's our show.

[Paul Scheer]

Yeah.

[June Diane Raphael]

Stick with us for these next four years.

[Paul Scheer]

I read a book over the break called An Artist of the Floating World by Kazuo Ishiguro.

[June Diane Raphael]

Okay.

[Paul Scheer]

And it was interesting because it was about what happens in the book report section. The show's over.

[June Diane Raphael]

Give us three books that are.

[Paul Scheer]

I will give you three books, John, but I'll start with this one. What was interesting about it is it was about what happens in a country after the fascist fervor breaks and everyone's just looking around being like, why did you do this to us? And it was. It was interesting what happens. A lot of people are pretty sad.

[Jason Mantzoukas]

A lot of death.

[Paul Scheer]

But it was more. But it was interesting just because it was this. This older guy grappling with his involvement and the younger generation looking at disgust at what they did to the country.

[June Diane Raphael]

Yeah.

[Paul Scheer]

And it just reminded me as I was reading it that, like, there's a lot about what happens on the way in, but there's also a way out.

[June Diane Raphael]

Well, it's also Interesting that, like, you just mentioned the fascist fervor and it's like, I don't even think there's that much fervor. Right. Like, a lot of it is, like, apathy or people being checked out or denial or like, whatever. I was. I was annoyed. You know, people sort of. A lot of people probably voted for Trump out of, like, disgust with both choices. Right. And it's just people are going to be in for a rude awakening.

[Jason Mantzoukas]

Yeah, there's that part of it. There's also a great piece in ProPublica from a couple days ago called the Oath Keepers Militia Mole, I think is the title. It's the Militia and the Mole. It's about this guy who just decided on his own to infiltrate, like, the 3 percenters and the Oath Keepers and all these right wing groups. And his story about why he did that, even though he didn't do it on behalf of the cops, he just wanted to expose them. But the degree to which these groups now feel ascendant and validated because of Trump's reelection is very scary.

[June Diane Raphael]

And it goes back to the pardon issue too, with January 6th, because if they see them getting a pardon, they'll feel pretty emboldened. So, anyway, coming attractions.

[Jason Mantzoukas]

Should we do more books?

[June Diane Raphael]

Yeah.

[Paul Scheer]

What else do you read?

[Jason Mantzoukas]

I'm reading the Wide Wide Sea by Hampton Sides. It's about Captain James Cook, famous British explorer. Obviously a lot of downsides to these guys running around the world spreading diseases and rats and killing off native peoples, but also kind of fascinating to imagine a period of time when you could hop in a boat and go someplace that no one you knew had ever heard of even or wasn't on a map.

[June Diane Raphael]

Wow.

[Paul Scheer]

Tommy's getting ideas.

[Jason Mantzoukas]

I'm just gonna get in a spaceship with Elon. Go.

[Paul Scheer]

What'd you read over the break, John?

[June Diane Raphael]

I'm reading. I'm doing the thing. You've done this before. I'm reading like many books at once now. I like doing that reading Boy, mom, which is about raising young men and solid and, you know, modern masculinity. And I'm reading Patrick Raffini's book, which was about how the GOP has being or the realignment of the working class.

[Jason Mantzoukas]

Rough Riders.

[June Diane Raphael]

Rough Riders. It's a good book. And Evan Leonhardt's book, Ours Was a Shining Future, about the American dream and inequality.

[Paul Scheer]

I read. And I read Henry Kissinger's last book about AI that he wrote with Eric Schmidt, because it was very short. And I was like, you know what? I want a primer from the oldest man in the world from the I want the last did he get a.

[June Diane Raphael]

Medal of freedom yet?

[Paul Scheer]

I want the last musings on a new technology from a dying 100-year-old man. It was interesting.

[Jason Mantzoukas]

Oh, do you guys know Trump had a book called the Art of the comeback from 1997? Prescient.

[June Diane Raphael]

Put that on your list. All right, we will be back on Friday with a new episode from me and Dan. If you want to listen to Pod Save America ad free or get access to our subscriber discord and exclusive podcasts, consider joining our Friends of the pod [e-mail] friends or subscribe on Apple Podcasts directly from the Pod Save America feed. Also, be sure to follow Pod Save America on TikTok, Instagram, Twitter and YouTube for full episodes, bonus content, and more. And before you hit that next button, you can help boost this episode by leaving us a review and by sharing it with friends and family. Pod Save America is a crooked media production. Our producers are David Toledo and Saul Rubin. Our associate producer is Farah Safari, Reed Churlin is our Executive editor and Adrienne Hill is our executive producer. The show is mixed and edited by Andrew Chadwick. Jordan Kanter is our sound engineer with audio support from Kyle Seglin and Charlotte Landis. Writing support by Hallie Kiefer. Madeline Herringer is our head of news and programming. Matt De Groat is our head of production. Andy Taft is our Executive assistant. Thanks to our digital team, Elijah Cohn, Hayley Jones, Phoebe Bradford, Joseph Dutra, Ben Hefco, Mia Kelman, Molly Lobel, Kiril Pelaviev and David Toles.

[H]

What's Poppin listeners? I'm Lacey Mosley, host of the podcast Scam Goddess, the show that's an ode to fraud and all those who practice it. Each week I talk with very special guests about the scammiest scammers of all time. Wanna know about the fake errors? We got em. What about a career con man? We've got them too guys that will wine and dine you and then steal all your coins. Oh, you know they are represented because representation matters. I'm joined by guests like Nicole byer, Ira Madison III, Conan O'Brien, and more. Join the congregation and listen to Scam Goddess wherever you get your podcasts.