946: Kamala’s Closing Argument (feat. AOC)

Summary

Pod Save America Episode Summary: "Kamala’s Closing Argument (feat. AOC)"

Published by Crooked Media

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Introduction

In the episode titled "Kamala’s Closing Argument," hosts Jon Lovett and Tim Miller delve into the final days of the 2024 presidential campaign, focusing on Vice President Kamala Harris's concluding speech to undecided voters. The episode features a special appearance by Congresswoman Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez (AOC), who discusses strategies for engaging disaffected progressives. The hosts analyze the contrasting campaign strategies of the Democratic and Republican parties, highlighting the critical issues at stake in the upcoming election.

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Kamala Harris's Final Rally Speech

At [05:12], Jon Lovett sets the stage by summarizing Kamala Harris's pivotal closing speech delivered outside the White House Ellipse. The campaign reported a turnout of 75,000 attendees, though actual numbers may vary. The speech aimed to appeal to undecided voters by contrasting Harris's inclusive vision with Donald Trump's divisive rhetoric.

Notable Quote:

"In less than 90 days, either Donald Trump or I will be in the Oval Office. And on day one, if elected..." ([05:57])

Key Points:

• Harris emphasized common-sense solutions to rising costs and sought to create an inclusive government.
• She contrasted her approach with Trump's, highlighting a commitment to seating opponents at the table rather than viewing them as enemies.
• The speech was characterized as both stirring and strategically segmented for impact in swing states.

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Analysis of Campaign Strategies

At [08:04], Tim Miller shares his enthusiasm and support for Harris, praising her tactical decisions and message clarity. Jon Lovett echoes these sentiments, noting that Harris effectively balanced highlighting Trump's perceived faults while focusing on economic issues.

Notable Quote:

"I think what she fundamentally in her person is different from Biden. And I just think leaning into that as much as possible..." ([08:04])

Key Points:

• Harris's strategy included reaching out beyond traditional Democratic bases, attempting to appeal to moderate and even some MAGA voters.
• The hosts discuss the potential disconnect between Harris's inclusive rhetoric and the realities of entrenched political divisions.
• They acknowledge minor tactical critiques but largely commend the overall effectiveness of her campaign efforts.

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Donald Trump's Campaign Moves and Controversies

Starting around [14:00], Lovett and Miller shift focus to Donald Trump's ongoing campaign activities, including attempts to mitigate fallout from controversial remarks about Puerto Rico made by comedian Tony Hinchcliffe. The discussion highlights Trump's pattern of deflecting criticism and maintaining his base's loyalty despite public backlash.

Notable Quote:

"The only garbage I see floating out there is his supporters. His demonization is unconscionable." ([19:05])

Key Points:

• Trump faces scrutiny over inflammatory statements, which mirror his broader narrative of American decline.
• The hosts critique the performative outrage from Trump's allies, suggesting it often serves to distract rather than address substantive issues.
• There is an exploration of the potential long-term impacts of Trump's rhetoric on American political discourse and voter behavior.

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Defining "Fascism" in the Political Context

At [39:45], the conversation turns to the contentious use of the term "fascism" in political discourse, particularly concerning Donald Trump's actions and rhetoric. The hosts debate the efficacy and implications of labeling political opponents with such charged terminology.

Notable Quote:

"We need to be very clear about what fascism means. This is not a name that we're calling people." ([62:33])

Key Points:

• They emphasize the importance of specific policy criticisms over broad and potentially divisive labels.
• The discussion underscores the necessity of defining fascism in actionable terms, focusing on concrete policies like mass deportations and erosion of civil liberties.
• The hosts argue that without clear definitions, charges of fascism can become rhetorical tools that obscure meaningful debate.

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Conversation with Congresswoman Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez (AOC)

In a pre-recorded segment before the Madison Square Garden rally, AOC discusses the challenges of mobilizing voters who feel disillusioned or disconnected from the political process.

Notable Quote:

"We need to be able to be out there and see you first. We need to be able to be out there and see you first." ([54:26])

Key Points:

• AOC highlights the importance of addressing both pragmatic concerns (like economic issues) and emotional disconnects that prevent voter turnout.
• She references the situation in Puerto Rico as a case study for successful grassroots organizing and coalition-building beyond traditional party lines.
• The conversation emphasizes the dual need for affirmative visions to inspire voters and counteracting narratives of fear to encourage participation.

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Final Thoughts and Mobilization Efforts

Toward the episode's conclusion, the hosts stress the urgency of voter participation, particularly in closely contested states. They advocate for active engagement through canvassing, phone banking, and leveraging digital platforms to maximize turnout.

Notable Quote:

"We can't afford to give up on women who are bleeding out in parking lots. I refuse to give up on these folks." ([72:04])

Key Points:

• The episode underscores the high stakes of the election, touching on issues like climate change, abortion rights, and protecting vulnerable communities.
• The hosts call for a combination of electoral strategy and broader organizing efforts to solidify a progressive majority.
• They conclude with a rallying cry for listeners to participate actively in the democratic process to ensure the success of Kamala Harris against Donald Trump.

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Conclusion

"Kamala’s Closing Argument" provides an in-depth analysis of the final phase of the 2024 presidential campaign, juxtaposing the inclusive and strategic approaches of Kamala Harris with the divisive and confrontational tactics of Donald Trump. Through their conversation with AOC, Lovett and Miller offer insights into effective mobilization strategies aimed at engaging disaffected and progressive voters alike. The episode serves as both a critique of current political dynamics and a call to action for listeners to actively participate in shaping America's future.

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Noteworthy Quotes with Timestamps:

• "I will give them a seat at the table." – Kamala Harris ([06:30])
• "I couldn't be more overjoyed to support her." – Tim Miller ([08:04])
• "The only garbage I see floating out there is his supporters." – Tim Miller ([19:05])
• "We need to be very clear about what fascism means." – Joe Biden ([62:33])
• "We need to be able to be out there and see you first." – AOC ([54:26])
• "I refuse to give up on these folks." – Joe Biden ([72:04])

This episode not only dissects the strategies and rhetoric of both major party candidates but also emphasizes the critical role of voter engagement and the power of informed, collective action in shaping electoral outcomes.

Transcript

[Tim Miller]

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[Jon Lovett]

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[Tim Miller]

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[Jon Lovett]

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[Jon Lovett]

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[Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez]

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[Jon Lovett]

Welcome to Pod Save America. I'm Jon Lovett.

[Tim Miller]

I'm Tim Miller. Is that what we're doing?

[Jon Lovett]

You know who you are, Tim.

[Tim Miller]

That's how we're doing it.

[Jon Lovett]

Yeah. Oh, that's how we're doing it.

[Tim Miller]

Okay. All right, here we go. Let's start it over. Here we go. This is good.

[Jon Lovett]

Until you cleared your. Till you cleared your throat like. Like an ancient. On today's show, Kamala Harris makes her final argument to undecided voters. In a big speech on the Ellipse, Donald Trump tries to clean up the mess from that terrible joke about Puerto Rico. And President Biden makes Trump's job a little bit easier with quite a gaffe. And here in the home stretch, Trump and his surrogates are helpfully reminding voters of the stakes, being quite open about their plans to DISMANTLE Obamacare, put RFK Jr. In charge of vaccines and prescription drugs, and perhaps even crash the economy if they win. Then I talked to Congresswoman Alexandria Ocasio Cortez about how to persuade disaffected progressives. Someone. Tim is not. Not. Not someone who's going to help us reach at all. Yeah, you're just not for them.

[Tim Miller]

I've got. I've got a pitch for. I've got a pitch for disaffected progressives.

[Jon Lovett]

Yeah, let's hear it.

[Tim Miller]

Get your fucking ass into the game there. Okay?

[Jon Lovett]

That's why. That's why we don't send you the game.

[Tim Miller]

What are you doing right now? Disaffected progressives. Do you realize how crazy this person.

[Joe Biden]

Is on the other side?

[Tim Miller]

Do you know what they're going to do to you? Do you want the military showing up at your Gaza protest? Do you? All right, because it's not going to be John. John Kelly was no cup of tea either, by the way. John Kelly put green card holders in airport cells the first time around. We're going to have somebody worse than him showing up to your protest in 2025 with guns and jack boots. Is that what you want? Fucking vote for Kamala Harris.

[Jon Lovett]

So I feel like, you know, you've heard of good cop, bad cop. I would call that bad cop. Acab. You know what I mean? That's what we're getting with you. I. Look, I hear you. I hear you. I have the same energy. But we're trying to coax. Look, I think. Let's get that out there. But we also have to do some coaxing.

[Tim Miller]

Yeah, that's fine. You guys are softer. You can coax. You can use soft coaxing. It might just be helpful to hear from somebody that's like that. Tim Miller, he used to be a Republican. I find a lot of his views repulsive and extreme. And he's telling me that these people that are coming in, their views are so repulsive and extreme to him that it is freaking him out and that he's mentorating his sheets. And so maybe that should be a wake up call to me that these people over there are as bad as I could possibly imagine because he knows them personally and he's testifying that they're bad. And I think he's kind of bad. Is that not. You don't think that's compelling at all to young progressives?

[Jon Lovett]

I do. I don't think they've heard of you.

[Tim Miller]

That's a good point. Okay, well, we could vouch. You could vouch for them that I'm kind of bad anyway. I don't know. Whatever it takes to vouch for that, to vouch. I'm doing my best. I'll go on TikTok. I'll like, whatever. What do we do? I'll get on Twitch. What are we doing? I went to a Magdalena Bay show. I went to the dare. I saw the dare. There were Gen Z kids there. I think they looked like they're voting for Kamala Harris. I didn't play something, though.

[Jon Lovett]

Okay. Okay. Joining me to discuss all of this, you already know. Good start to the podcast. Yeah. Great start to the pod. Our favorite rhino, host of the Bulwark podcast, co host on Speech center, it's Tim Miller. It's good to see you, Tim.

[Tim Miller]

It's good to see you. We've got a lot of. I've got a lot of energy today to get out.

[Jon Lovett]

Look, we all. I feel like we're all. This is our final chance. Talking on pod, Save America before the election. I think all of our nerves are frayed. We are hopeful but broken here in the final days. And that's just the energy we're going to be bringing to it. On Tuesday evening, just outside the White House, Kamala Harris delivered her closing argument speech. The campaign said there were 75,000 people in attendance, though it's impossible to really know. At least one person was a protester who annoyed everybody during the first few minutes of the speech with a siren. But then they wrestled Joe Biden to the ground and everything went on without a hitch. This was an argument to voters who are still making up their minds. Let's take a listen.

[Tim Miller]

In less than 90 days, either Donald Trump or I will be in the Oval Office. And on day one, if elected. On day one, if elected, Donald Trump.

[Joe Biden]

Would walk into that office with an enemies list.

[Tim Miller]

When elected, I will walk in with a to do list. I have been honored to serve as.

[Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez]

Joe Biden's vice president.

[Joe Biden]

But I will.

[Tim Miller]

Bring my own experiences and ideas to the Oval Office. My presidency will be different because the challenges we face are different now. Our biggest challenge is to lower costs, costs that were rising even before the pandemic and that are still too high. I pledge to seek common ground and common sense solutions to make your life better. Unlike Donald Trump, I don't believe people who disagree with me are the enemy. He wants to put them in jail. I'll give them a seat at the table. So, America, let us Reach for that future. Let us fight for this beautiful country we love. And in seven days, we have the.

[Joe Biden]

Power, each of you has the power.

[Tim Miller]

To turn the page and start writing the next chapter in the most extraordinary story ever told. I thank you all. God bless you. And may God bless the United States of America.

[Joe Biden]

Thank you.

[Jon Lovett]

Look at, look at, look at Tim's heart sing. Look at that. Look, look at that.

[Tim Miller]

Isn't America mystic chords Isn't America wonderful?

[Jon Lovett]

Mystic chords Stirring between us.

[Tim Miller]

Man could use a little John Winthrop, but other than that, really good.

[Jon Lovett]

What were your, what were your general thoughts, general reactions?

[Tim Miller]

Thank God that Kamala Harris is the Democratic nominee for President of the United States is my main thought. I'm just. I couldn't be more overjoyed to support, support her. And I think that it's the clearest choice I've ever encountered in any vote for any office on any level. I thought she was really great, but the visuals were great. I thought the speech was very stirring in the beginning and at the end, I think there was a big section in the middle. It was kind of a focus group potpourri that I assume that they're cutting into 15 and 30 second ads to play to the people in the swing states. And so that's, that's fine. It's like a piece of art that wasn't great, but, you know, like, I understand why they're doing that and I thought it was smart to do it. There were some people that were, you know, some Democratic strategist types were like, I don't know, we shouldn't talk about fascism. And I don't know if this is right. We should talk about, you know, take home pay. And it's like she showed that that's a false choice. I think it was very good and important to stand there on the ellipse and provide the contrast with Donald Trump's worst day and to talk about the stakes while also talking about economic issues. And if anything, I thought that her olive branch to the right to Nikki Haley voters, to even MAGA voters was even a little longer than I would have given. She was reaching right out to my people and even a little further. I don't know that any MAGA people need a seat at the table, actually. We can put them on the floor, we can give them a seat on the floor for me, but good for her for doing that. And I think that all in all, it was smart tactically and I think the message was good.

[Jon Lovett]

Yeah, we talked about this a bit on Ponce America that came out Tuesday. And basically what does it mean to go to the ellipse? And does that put the balance too far on the side of Trump is a fascist, Trump is a menace versus the economic argument. But I do think this speech could have been one that was more focused on the insurrection and Trump's threat to democracy. But that was really more, I think, of a, I don't know, that got butts and seats, but ultimately it was much more of a broader stump.

[Tim Miller]

Yeah, I think that's right. I didn't get to listen to your policy of America on Tuesday because I was spending the afternoon with Steve Bannon at his Post Prison press conference in New York City. And so I prioritized my FaceTime with him over that. But I'm sure you had the right takes Tuesday.

[Jon Lovett]

I, I will, I will come back to that. I will come back to that. You know, you're, as you say that, too, being glad that Kamala Harris is the nominee. You know, you're, you're a colleague at the Bulwark. JVL wrote a piece kind of summing up where we're at, which I wanted to echo and get your thoughts on. Because the point he makes, which is a point I think we've made, is, it is worth saying as we head into this election, it is close. We could wake up and have lost the election, but it won't be because Kamala Harris fucked up. It won't be because she, she didn't do what we asked her to do. She is running an extraordinary campaign. And if the test for us in this election was that Kamala Harris had to run an absolutely perfect campaign without exception, and Donald Trump is free to run a blundering, rambling, baffling, a strategic operation and still pull it out. And that blame then gets laid at the feet of Democrats, I think that tells us that something deeper and darker about this election. And I do think it's worth saying that, because this speech, I felt the same as you did watching this speech. This was an excellent speech. She is an excellent candidate. And we've spent so many months because of the stakes are so high, kind of worrying over every decision and every move, lamenting when there were problems and all the rest. But here we are at the end, and I do really think it is no longer Kamala Harris problem, it's our problem.

[Tim Miller]

A lot there. Number one, JBL's newsletter, the Bullocks Triad newsletter, is amazing. He's always great, and so I highly recommend it. And he was right on this one. I think that probably it says Something deeper and darker about America that we even have to bite our fingernails about next Tuesday. So I don't know if that's a topic for this podcast or for, I don't know, you and me to get in our feelings over Christmas break. But so, yeah, I mean, I think that this is correct. She's run tactically. Her performance in every big set piece moment has been off the charts. I think the strategic choices of the campaign have been really good. You could tactically nitpick. I think in retrospect, I probably would have called his bluff on the Fox debate. I would have rather debated Donald Trump on Fox than debated Bret Baier. There would have been more eyes and she obviously would have dominated him since she dominated him the first time and since he is a sundowning 78 year old freak. So that's probably the only tactical mistake and it's only a technical mistake for me. Just in that, like there was this long period like after that big moment in the debate that allowed all of the gnashing of teeth and the wailing and the Donald Trump sideshow to kind of distract for something that was like, I think pretty clear in the, in the hour after that debate, which was how, how much stronger of a candidate she is and how much stronger potential president she is. But like that's like literally, I mean, that's my only nitpick and I've listened to the other side of that argument. Like, I don't think it's that clear cut. I just, I think she's done a great job. And unfortunately, some of this is out of her hands. Some of this isn't about the darkness of America. Some of this is just about that inflation is annoying and incumbents have done horribly all around the world. And some of this is about the darkness of America that we're even here. So that's my summary.

[Jon Lovett]

So, yeah, and I think those things are hard to find where one ends and the other begins. Because yes, there are challenges to incumbents all around the world. But even on Trump's core issue, which would be one of two core issues, would be inflation and immigration. On inflation, he is, his case is fundamentally fraudulent and he is promising higher costs. You know, she gave on that score her tightest response to lingering questions about how she is different from Joe Biden. How do you think, what did you think of her answer on that score?

[Tim Miller]

I thought it was good and I thought it was better. I guess I could always use more distance from him. And I don't put this in the bucket of something that has been a problem with the campaign. I don't know how much time we want to devote to this, but I think part of that has been there's been pressure from the Biden White House to not distance more and that Biden's. There have been sensitivities around the president there, which I think is very silly. But so I guess if you're going to give a second thing in addition to that FOX debate that you could look at and say we could have gotten a little more distance from Biden, that's probably something that I would look at as another thing the campaign could have done a little bit better. But I think it was out of their hands. And I thought what she said last night was good. I mean, I think that she fundamentally in her person is different from Biden. And I just think that leaning into that as much as possible and like you can throw some fig leaf issues out there, like I'm going to build 3 million more homes and we're going to do this specific thing on home health for seniors, home care for seniors. But you know, as much leaning into her background and her story and her perspective being so different and the generational change, I think that that is, that that's the better way to go.

[Jon Lovett]

Yeah. Even if you put aside sort of the personal politics, like I've always been of two minds on this because on the one hand I find this answer, oh, you know, just the kind of I am a different person and therefore I am different than Joe Biden to be. It is like a rhetorical and like kind of surface response. Right. Like I'll be different because I bring my different experiences to bear. Now that's of course true. Then on the other hand, I think, well, hold on a second. Am I too much of a kind of insane political person to realize that? Wait a second, wait a second. What do people really want? They're not saying they want someone who comes to the table with a different set of goals. They just want better outcomes. Right. When people say they want someone different than Joe Biden, they're not saying they have a fundamental problem with what Joe Biden promised to do. They don't have a problem with the Democratic agenda. They have a problem with outcomes. And so when you say, here are the new things I will do that will make me different than Joe Biden just because as people that are, you know, super politically invested and engaged, we understand that, you know, Joe Biden represents the center left consensus of the Democratic Party. Kamala Harris will represent that, that consensus and will and will in many ways be a continuation. That it doesn't make it less true that she is representing the differences people are hoping to see.

[Tim Miller]

I think that's right. And in some ways it's like a trick question, you know, because it's like what people really want to hear is I would have waved a magic wand and inflation wouldn't have been as bad as it was. You know what I mean? What people really want is not how are you going to be different in the next four years, but it's what would you have done differently? And that's an answer. That's a question that is unanswerable for her, really. Unless you want to get into. Well, I was advising in the room that this and that. That's a bag of worms. That probably is unhelpful. I think that the forward looking and the identity looking elements of the answer is the best you can do in a sticky situation.

[Jon Lovett]

Meanwhile, Trump spent Tuesday trying to limit the damage from what a country. From comedian Tony Hinchcliffe's comment about Puerto Rico being a floating island of garbage, Trump did a pair of events in Pennsylvania. He spun variations of the claim that no one has done more for Puerto Rico than he has. Anyone on Hannity tried to distance himself from Hinchcliffe and defend the photo op when he threw paper towels. Let's roll a clip.

[Tim Miller]

I was told and made aware that.

[Jon Lovett]

You had no idea about this comedian who made comments.

[Tim Miller]

I still have.

[Jon Lovett]

I have no idea who he is.

[Tim Miller]

Somebody said there was a comedian that joked about Puerto Rico or something and.

[Jon Lovett]

I have no idea who he was. Never saw him, never heard of him.

[Tim Miller]

And don't want to hear of him.

[Jon Lovett]

But I have no idea.

[Tim Miller]

They put a comedian in, which everybody does. You throw comedians in, you don't vet.

[Jon Lovett]

Them and go crazy.

[Tim Miller]

It's nobody's fault.

[Jon Lovett]

Every time I go outside, I see.

[Tim Miller]

Somebody from Puerto Rico, they give me a hug and a kiss. I was there handing out food. I got in trouble for that, too because we were having fun. We had a lot of people and.

[Jon Lovett]

I was throwing paper towels to the back. Never heard of Tony Hinchcliffe. Similar way. He's never heard of a lot of people who have said terrible things in or around him.

[Tim Miller]

Yeah, Lissifera was one the other day I was watching his Rogan interview. He's like, who is that person who's my communications director, what was her name? And never heard of her. You know, he's, he's abhorrent and repellent in every possible way. It is, I know that this game is so tired at this point. But like, imagine like that if Kamal Harris was giving that answer on cnn. I don't know. People have comedians all the time and who knows? We don't vet people on our. We just kind of let people talk at our events. And I don't, I don't really care one way or the other. The whole thing is pretty silly. And the reason why it's the most silly though is that the joke that Tony, what's his comedian name, Hinchcliffe F. Tony screwed Tony. Tony the kill Tony. Yeah, the kill Tony told the joke is literally the same thing that Donald Trump has said seriously several times on the stump recently about how America is a garbage can. It's just inverting the same point. Like Donald Trump has said multiple times, America is a garbage can and we are garbage can for the world and people are sending their immigrants and they are garbage. And Tony Hinchcliffe just said that Puerto Rico is a floating island of garbage. The same thing. The only reason people have any outrage about it any different than what Donald Trump had said is because it specifically targeted a group of people. That's very important in Pennsylvania. But like, Donald Trump says racist shit about how immigrants, Puerto Ricans, Haitians, et cetera, are garbage all the time. And so there is no difference between him and the comedian. So, like that whole kind of discussion is, is moot.

[Jon Lovett]

So Democrats were making hay of this. This comment happened to coincide with Kamal Harris laying out her plan for Puerto Rico. We got another post from Bad Bunny. JLO announced an event with Kamala Harris in Nevada. And then last night, President Biden joined a press call about it hosted by Voto Latino in which he said this.

[Tim Miller]

And just the other day, a speaker at his rally called Puerto Rico a.

[Jon Lovett]

Floating island of garbage.

[Tim Miller]

Well, let me tell you something. I don't, I don't know the Puerto Rican that I know or Puerto Rico where I'm in my home state of Delaware.

[Joe Biden]

They're good, decent, honorable people.

[Tim Miller]

The only garbage I see floating out there is his supporters. His demonization is unconscionable.

[Jon Lovett]

So Joe Biden has entered the chat. He's. And he's from the government and he's here to help Ronnie for Tim. So. All right, so this comes right after Kamala's great speech, a speech in which she pre butted Joe Biden. If I talked about how much she would reach out to Republicans. She spoke on the tarmac this morning at Andrews and said, I strongly disagree with any criticism of people based on who they Vote for you heard my speech last night. I believe that the work I do is about representing all people, whether they support me or not. She'll be a president for all Americans. A lot of Republicans were very relieved to have a chance to pretend to be offended, like the old days. Imagine a president insulting people. It's. To live in a world like that. It's beyond the pale. Obviously, Trump has called his opponents human scum, the enemy within. Just to pick two. JD Vance has insulted vast swaths of American humanity. Joe Biden is not on the ballot as much as that would be the Republican preference. Kamala and Josh Shapiro, among others, immediately rejected the comment. Time and again, Republicans have refused to criticize Trump when he has said far worse and meant it. But all that being said. Come on, Joe. What are we doing here? What are we doing here?

[Tim Miller]

Yeah, I have two thoughts. I guess we'll take Joe first, since that's where you're going, and then I'll make fun of the Republicans. I don't think that his intention was actually to call Donald Trump supporters garbage, but who could tell? Like, really, like, the whole quote is indecipherable. What he talked about before, that was not decipherable. And it's just. It's not helpful to be out there. And it's. And, like, it gets me a little angry because it's like, I don't know why people in the Democratic Party and around the Biden administration, even on the Harris campaign, like, why we feel like we have to baby the President of the United States and, like, walk on eggshells and make sure he feels included and feel he's the President of the United States. Like, the president Biden should do president things. He should have private meetings, should meet with the generals. He should meet with the Pardon Committee, think about who he's going to pardon and what other obligations he has for the last two months. Like, that is his job for right now. It is not helpful for him to be out at all with Kamala Harris. He shouldn't take that personally. We shouldn't have to care about what his feelings are about it. He shouldn't make people feel bad that he's not being whatever. Like, you know, you see these leaks in the New York Times and Politico about this issue, and I find it very frustrating. He should be just focused. Everyone should just be focused singularly on the goal of defeating Donald Trump, having Kamala Harris win this election. And, like, I just. It's hard to think about anything public that Joe Biden could do that would be beneficial to that goal and certainly not being on some zoom that like to fill the calendar. I can't possibly think about why that would have been useful. So, please, I'm begging everybody, it's not personal. Nobody take it personally. If I made a big gaffe on this podcast and tomorrow Fox News is airing it, and it would be better for me to go hide for the last five days, I will go hide, like, whatever it takes. Kamala Harris needs to win. Secondly, obviously, it's fake outrage, and it's really fucking annoying. And JD Vance is like out there two days ago saying we shouldn't be so offended about things. And then yesterday he's like, I'm so offended. On behalf of the millions of Americans that were like, just a simple rule of thumb here. If you are overjoyed that somebody said something, you cannot also be offended simultaneously. You cannot be overjoyed about the statement and offended about the statement. So if people get offended about things, feel free to be offended. But the MAGA world, everybody does this a little bit on social media. So even positive America listeners, maybe everybody can reflect on whether they've committed this crime. But Republicans have, like an entire media ecosystem like the Daily Wire and Megyn Kelly exist, I think, to be fake offended about things that they're actually happy about. And so that is very enraging. And the media should not participate in their, like, little game of pretend. And so it was a mistake by Joe Biden. But we should also acknowledge that nobody, nobody's actually offended here. The people who are pretending to be offended are actually delighted. And we should just move on, focusing on Kamala Harris versus Donald Trump, which is a very clear contrast that on the issue of who calls who names more.

[Jon Lovett]

Yeah, I agree. And also, by the way, Joe Biden clarified what he meant. It's clear that regardless of the kind of word salad that people are plucking this out of, he has often gone out of his way to make clear that this is not the kind of thing he says or intends to say. Unlike Donald Trump, who says it and means it on a daily basis and when questioned on it, always doubles down. Yes, I do think there is a lot of performative outrage. I think the good side of that, though, is you have a lot of people, you're Ben Shapiro and others saying, look at what Joe Biden said. This is offensive. We are offended by this because it's valuable for them. They think it's useful. But it's because they are putting themselves in the minds of other people who they think might actually sincerely be offended. The problem is it's turtles all the way down, so they say. I find this offensive. A bunch of MAGA people who hearts have been completely hardened by eight years of Donald Trump, a decade of Donald Trump are also sharing it and pointing out saying, can you believe Joe Biden said this? I too will pretend to be offended, but you never get to the people that are actually offended because they just simply don't exist. They don't exist anymore. And so they're putting on this, this show. But I ultimately think it doesn't really matter. And if anything, it also is keeping the Puerto Rico story going for another 24 hours. And it gives Kamala an opportunity to remind people of how she's distanced herself from Donald Trump and Joe Biden. Galaxy brain. Another great day for Kamala Harris. Thank you, Joe Biden. Let's get this fucking guy out there. Let's get him out there. Why are we constraining Joe Biden to a zoom box with vote Latino with a terrible camera angle? Let's get him out there. Let's get it out there. The more shit Joe Biden says out there, the more Kamala Harris can say, I don't resemble that remark at all.

[Tim Miller]

Yeah, I don't know if I agree with that. It's an interesting theory. It's a good idea. It's a good idea. But I don't know, I think maybe ice cream in Delaware and like meetings, a lot of meetings.

[Jon Lovett]

Fill that calendar.

[Tim Miller]

Meet up, meet people.

[Jon Lovett]

There are a lot of people. We have Americans doing great work in Antarctica that would, I think, really appreciate a visit from the President here in the last couple days. There's the dmz where a visit from the President without press might be something that would hearten a lot.

[Tim Miller]

We've got all the Peace corps people doing good work. You could just do a full Peace Corps tour.

[Jon Lovett]

You know, we've got people working to clear brush in the rural parts of California and the Pacific Northwest to prevent forest fires. Those are people that could use a big hello from the President of the United States. A lot of good that the President could do over the next seven days. And so I think that's important.

[Tim Miller]

I think so too. And we appreciate you. We appreciate you. It's been a good four years, but we're not going back. Coconut time.

[Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez]

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[Jon Lovett]

Good looking stuff too.

[Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez]

It looks great. Super comfortable. Got some patio furniture that's Article as well. You know I highly recommend it. And you know it arrives pretty quickly too. We love that.

[Jon Lovett]

Very fast.

[Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez]

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[Tim Miller]

Yep.

[Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez]

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[Tim Miller]

Little Spoon is great.

[Jon Lovett]

The only problem you're going to have is not eating it yourself.

[Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez]

Yeah, some of those plates that we have, Teddy's starting to eat those too. I looked at them, I'm like I could eat that.

[Tim Miller]

Do you see all the snacks that.

[Jon Lovett]

People in our office stole from the kids? Little Spoon sent us a bunch of stuff and all these adults here just chowed down.

[Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez]

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[Jon Lovett]

All right, here's what I'm going to do this week. Okay, this hurts me because I despise both of these teams.

[Tim Miller]

But we got jaden Daniels over 241 pass yards. I feel like that's going to happen. And then Derek Henry over 83 and.

[Jon Lovett]

A half rush yards. So look again. I hate the Commanders.

[Tim Miller]

I hate Baltimore.

[Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez]

No offense. I mean offense.

[Tim Miller]

I don't really care.

[Jon Lovett]

To all of you listening, I'm a.

[Tim Miller]

Patriots fan and I'm an asshole and I endorse that. But price Picks is super fun because.

[Jon Lovett]

It makes you care about games you wouldn't otherwise watch.

[Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez]

Well, best of luck. We'll check in with you to see how you did.

[Tim Miller]

Thank you.

[Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez]

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[Jon Lovett]

So meanwhile, on the other side, Magaworld has, I think, persuaded themselves of bullshit interpretations of early vote to they're giddy and they can't help but share some of their least popular plans. Elon has been elaborating on the terrible economy he has in store for us when he is put in charge of government budgets. Mike Johnson says Republicans in the House will dismantle the ACA and Trump reminds everyone about his plans to empower RFK Jr. Let's listen.

[Tim Miller]

I'm going to let him go wild on health. I'm going to let him go wild on the food. I'm going to let him go wild on medicines.

[Jon Lovett]

How much do you think we can.

[Tim Miller]

Rip out of this wasted 6.5 trillion.

[Jon Lovett]

Dollar Harris Biden budget.

[Tim Miller]

Well, I, I think we, we can do at least 2 trillion.

[Joe Biden]

Yeah.

[Tim Miller]

Yes, 2 trillion.

[Joe Biden]

Yeah.

[Tim Miller]

That, that necessarily involves some, some temporary hardship, but, but it, it will ensure long term prosperity. And so health care is one of the sectors. But we need this across the board. And Trump's going to go big. I mean, he's only going to have one more term. Right.

[Jon Lovett]

Can't run for reelection.

[Tim Miller]

And so he's going to be thinking about legacy and we're going to, we're going to fix those things. No, no Obamacare, no real problem.

[Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez]

I haven't heard of it.

[Tim Miller]

Yeah, the ACA is so deeply ingrained. We need massive reform to make this work and we got a lot of ideas on how to do that. Concepts of ideas.

[Jon Lovett]

So Elon, Concepts of ideas. So Elon, quite the surrogate saying they're going to cut $2 trillion. It will cause temporary hardship. He responded to somebody on social media who is pointing out all the ways in which this would be devastating for the economy. And Elon agreed that there would be something like a crash because that's what you have to do to get to the promised land of a low tax, no regulation free market in which he can launch rockets everywhere. But do you think Elon saying this kind of thing is something that could.

[Tim Miller]

Break through Trump Temporary hardships? I think you just put that right there on a hat. You know, I don't, I hate that question. Will it break through? I don't know. How the fuck do I know if it'll break through? I'll tell you this, here's what I do know. It will cause temporary hardships. And I think that it could be a continued message that people should talk about with. There are essentially three key groups of people left to talk about. You and AOC are going to have a very happy nudging chat, encouraging chat with the progressives. Aren't sure what to do. There are the younger voters mostly, but people that are just kind of like, meh, should I vote or not, that are traditionally Democrats. You gotta figure out how to motivate them. Hopefully Bad Bunny is helping with that. Other things. And then you have my people, the Nikki Haley people. And I do think continuing to speak to them about how they are serious about this. You think that their plans are 2017, when Mitch McConnell and Paul Ryan wrote the tax cut bill that you liked. That's not their plan right now. You know, the last seven speakers were like, it was like a Eastern European oligarchy. It was like three family members, two oligarchs, and like two members of the former party that he'd bought off to switch to the other side. Like there was no normal Republicans in that Madison Square Garden thing. It was RFK and all of them. So communicating to them that is what they're really going to do. Those are the real people in the inner circle. The tariffs are coming. That is going to fuck with your 401k. You're not getting the tax cut that you want. What you're getting is tariffs good and hard and mass deportations, which is going to, you know, potentially impact, I don't know, building projects and other things that you want to do as far as, as far as workers are concerned. So I think that like that message, you know, can still work on the margins. And I do think Elon's helping with that.

[Jon Lovett]

Yeah, there's he. Trump said something to Rogan in deep within that three hour conversation, which was something like, when I talked to people in business, I said, what's more important, deregulation or cutting the taxes? They all said deregulation. He obviously meant that in defense of his overall agenda. But actually I think that is reflective of why this argument would be helpful, which is, hey, a 15% tax rate in a chaotic crashing economy dealing with the after effects of tariffs and mass deportations and huge budget cuts that affect everything from Social Security to the basic functioning of government. You know, a lower tax rate in that economy is not better than a stable growing economy with a 21%, by the way, still ridiculously low corporate tax rate. What about ACA too? I do think like, it's interesting, like Mike Johnson, the guy says no Obamacare and Johnson goes, no Obamacare. And it was very veep adjacent.

[Tim Miller]

It's like, wait, are you out of your comic?

[Jon Lovett]

Where's the comma Obamacare? No Obamacare question mark. But I do think however you interpret that piece of it, he is saying Obamacare is entrenched, but we have a plan to get under it and dismantle it regular in, via regulation, via legislation, even though they're not going to walk people through it.

[Tim Miller]

It's like that Lionel Hutz business card, no comma, money down, exclamation point, no money down. We have a lot of. A big part of this podcast today is interpreting apostrophes and commas and the words of Joe Biden and Mike Johnson. I guess I turn it back on you. I don't know. Democratic nerds and polling types and analysts are like convinced that, that Obamacare still is a very salient and effective issue. And I sort of am neutral on that because I think that abortion obviously is. I just discussed what I think works with Nikki Haley voters. My people are not, you know, the group that I spend the most time listening to and focus groups and whatnot is this is not what's going to be the motivating issue for them. But, but obviously, you know, it's gained popularity and the smarties on the Democratic side think it works. So I'm looking to that.

[Jon Lovett]

I do think there's a little bit of the same kind of, you know, Trump's a fascist, but wait, he was already president. That didn't happen. They're going to repeal Obamacare. They were already in charge and that didn't happen. So I think you kind of have to now, at this point, you can't just say they want to repeal Obamacare. Even if people don't want that. I think it doesn't really, it doesn't sort of light the right fires. But I do think if you say they want to dismantle consumer protections around health care, they want to dismantle the discounts you get on prescriptions, they want to dismantle the way in which you have preventive care, in which you have limits on co pays, all that, like, those kinds of, those kinds of, I think specifics I think can matter.

[Tim Miller]

I agree with that. Can I just have one Second, like a 20 second rant on the fascism didn't happen because it does drive me crazy.

[Jon Lovett]

Sure.

[Tim Miller]

I mean, the Capitol was stormed. I just like the whole thing, really. I did a one hour debate with Dan Crenshaw, which shows that things are really busy in the House of Representatives, where this was his argument the whole time. He keeps going back to like, in 2017, fascism didn't happen. And it's like if you showed anybody the front page of the newspaper on January 7th and you know, you Back to the future dip back to 2014, my buddy Steve Bannon, 2% of the country would be like, cool. Yeah, I'm in on that. Like everybody else would have like, oh my God, fuck, no, we'll never do that. So, like the goalposts get moved on this stuff a lot. And it's true on the fascism and on the Obamacare stuff. And I guess what we're saying is like, we're throwing up our hands. It's just frustrating. It's like this hasn't broken through and we just, we have to use our favorite phrase of meeting the people where they are.

[Jon Lovett]

Well, you were mad at me for even referring to whether or not something is breaking through or not. I mean, we have to make it break through.

[Tim Miller]

I wasn't mad at you. I would never be mad at you. I was just saying, I don't, I don't know how to answer that question.

[Jon Lovett]

I think we have to make it. Breakthrough is the answer. But the, the yes. I mean, the other piece of it too is, it's part of why I think it's a hard, like, I don't think you say, like, is, is Donald Trump fascist? Like, I, it's a, I feel like the only way to win that game is not to play. You just got to get people to be convinced we know what fascism is. I don't need to have a whole fucking academic debate in politics in public about the definition of fascism, which I of course believe Donald Trump means. I think part of what we need to do is just lay out what those things are and make the case on each one of them. Like, because if you go down the list, sowing disinformation and mistrust in the media, a lionization of masculinity at the expense of women and defense of traditional patriarchies, declaring an enemy the source of all of our problems, intimidating people, by the way, one of the reasons, not just January 6th right now, and it's not, it's not just the advanced compliance of Jeff Bezos and avoiding an endorsement. We have heard from Republican after Republican that they are afraid to speak out about Donald Trump because of threats to their family, because of the fear of political violence. The fascist threat of violence is already warping our politics. That warping is happening. It is in front of us. There are Republicans right now who would be speaking out, but they are afraid of retribution. There are business leaders who would be speaking out right now, but they are afraid of retribution. That is, that is a response to the ways in which Donald Trump is an authoritarian fascist. You don't stop being a fascist because you don't get everything you want in your first term because you're surrounded by people who aren't fascists. They're right wing Republicans. They're craving, but they're not going along with fascism. You don't get to do full fascism until you're surrounded by fascists. That doesn't mean you weren't a fascist because you failed.

[Tim Miller]

I'm snapping.

[Jon Lovett]

Speaking of, before we let you go, Tim, because you're, you're a recording machine. It's not just the stakes around policy. We are reminded in these closing days of the kind of People that will surround Donald Trump if he wins. Steve Bannon just got a jail. He's back to podcasting and claiming Democrats are rigging the election. Mike Flynn is claiming he's going to unleash hell on Trump's enemies. Also saw this morning you were reacting to this clip from Trump confidant Johnny McEntee. Let's play that clip. So I guess they misunderstood when we said we wanted male only voting. We met male. Male. A good one.

[Tim Miller]

He's such a douchenozzle.

[Jon Lovett]

So, look, I'm sure already there's like, oh, you liberals, you can't take a joke, but can you just remind everybody who McEntee is?

[Tim Miller]

Yeah, look, this is why it's important, because, yes, they're fools. Yes, we should laugh at them, but that they're the fools that will be in charge. And they have very radical views. Johnny McEntee was. They called him the deputy president because he was so close to Trump. He started that date. Right Stuff. So if any of you are on TikTok, you've probably seen his stupid TikToks, which. That was one of them. But more importantly, he was in charge of the staffing in the administrative state. As they got later on in the White House, Donald Trump realized one of his problems was he had too many of these normal, boring Alex P. Keaton Republicans around him. Too many people with briefcases and khakis, like he needed more MAGA in there. So he put Johnny in charge of getting more loyalists then. So that was his job. And then as part of Project 2025, his job has been helping the Heritage foundation organize the list of people that would go in who would be loyalists. So you have that guy with the all male voting. He's going to be in charge of the hiring. That should alarm you. You have Bannon coming out of prison, and it's almost not even worth discussing. Obviously, they're going to lie about the election again. I went back and forth with him, kind of tongue in cheek about whether he's reformed at all. The answer is no. There's no relooking at 2020. They have no remorse over the police that were injured. None of that. They're already planning it again. On his first podcast back, he said that the fight goes through Inauguration Day, and he specifically says, yes, that includes on January 6th. That might not be a direct quote with the fight, but the. Whatever, our efforts go on to January 20th. And so. But he does mention January 6th. And so that's alarming. But like the other thing that is Just that ties back to my point about who was around Trump at Madison Square Garden, his family, these sycophants, extremists, not traditional politician types. At the Bannon press conference around him was Jeff Clark, who they tried to put in at the head of DOJ during the coup. It was that Mike Davis guy that, like, tweets about how Mehdi Hasan should be in the women's Gulag. And it was a bunch of other weirdos. Like, dude, it felt like we were in a. Like a movie about a fictional Eastern European country. And like, somebody comes out of jail and he's like, I've got my goombas with me and I got my bag men and I've got a couple of, like, I got a guy with one eye. And like, it was the weirdest group of people. But these are the people that will be around, the people that were cheering for Steve Bannon on his post prison press conference. The family, the oligarchs, the Johnny McEntees, that is, who will staff the next administration. And you don't have to have any love for HR McMaster or Reince Priebus or anything to recognize that it's a category difference of people and they don't deserve to be in the White House. But it also is extremely alarming about what kinds of stuff that Trump wanted to do that he might be able to do with people like this around him.

[Jon Lovett]

Yeah. Jeffrey Clark, you might remember last time you saw him, he was standing outside his house in a shirt and boxers as the FBI was searching his home because of his involvement in the effort to overturn the election from inside the.

[Tim Miller]

Horrible mental image, if you have that right. I wouldn't Google it. I wouldn't Google it.

[Jon Lovett]

Well, it's seared into my mind, Tim. We were going to do some superlatives, but we've just had too much to talk about.

[Tim Miller]

We were what superlative? We do one superlative.

[Jon Lovett]

Let's do one. Let's do one. Let'S do one. Who is most likely to take the MAGA reigns if Donald Trump loses?

[Tim Miller]

I think J.D. yeah, I don't think it was him at the beginning, but I think he's really kind of found his sea legs on these bro podcasts. And I think that Tucker and Elon kind of like being the power behind the throne and don't want to actually run. Tucker, I think, is the person has the most natural presentation skill. But JD has proven himself pliant and he's proven himself appealing enough, likable enough, and appealing enough to do it, which I think they were very unsure about in the first month or two of the campaign. So I think sadly, we are stuck with the worst Elder Millennial for quite a while now, no matter what happens. But he will be sad next week. Yes, he'll be sad next week when we're living in that Coconut Grove. And I appreciate everybody that is going to help make that happen.

[Jon Lovett]

Well, I appreciate you, Tim. Look at this. Tim Miller, a man of righteous principle and outrage.

[Tim Miller]

I just love this country. John Lovett. I just love this country. You know, and if that's a flaw, then whatever, he's gay for America. I love content.

[Jon Lovett]

All right. Ok. After the break, you're going to hear my conversation with aoc, which I want to note we recorded before the MSG rally. We did talk about Puerto Rico, and I actually think the conversation we had about the politics in Puerto Rico explains a bit of why this comment at the MSG rally resonated so much. We also talked about campaigning in Pennsylvania and how to make the case for Kamala Harris both to less engaged voters and to hyper engaged progressives who might be considering sitting this one out. But before we get to that, here's how Ponzi of America is gearing up for the insane week ahead. We're going to be releasing new episodes every weekday until race is called, diving deep into the results and getting through whatever may come with you. Also, what a day. We'll have updates each morning with Jane Costin breaking down all the News in just 20 minutes. And if legal challenges start flying, Crooked's go to legal experts from strict scrutiny will stop by on shows across the network to unpack the shenanigans and what they mean. Make sure to subscribe and follow Crooked Media and Pod Save America on Instagram to get all the headlines right in your feed. And you know, as always, we're in your podcast feeds. We're on YouTube. We're everywhere. You know, the sun never sets may set on America, but we'll be here, I suppose. And listen, we are in the last few days before this election. We have just been to canvases around some of these House races that are gonna be really close. We're about to head to Arizona in Nevada where those races are really close. Wherever you are, there is a race where you could have an impact in the home stretch. There are campaigns that still, believe it or not, could use some money in the home stretch. They could certainly use your texts and your calls and your physical plant to knock on some doors. Please, please, please do whatever you can in these final days. You got Mike Johnson and Donald Trump talking about a secret. If we win the House, we won't have to worry about. You got Elon talking about cutting $2 trillion and the economic devastation of deporting 10 million people. If we knock on enough doors, we don't have to worry about it. I would like to not worry about it. So everybody in the last couple days, do whatever you can votesaveamerica.com you can also go there to fill out your ballot and send votes of America to other people in your life so they can fill out their ballot too. With our build your own ballot tool. Everything's on the line. Climate's on the line. Abortion's on the line. Our sanity's on the line. Let's go vote America.com and when we come back AOC.

[Tim Miller]

The kind of burgers.

[Jon Lovett]

You get today tells you a lot about yourself.

[Tim Miller]

You're either someone who settles for sad same old same old burgers or you're Edit Carl's Jr obsessed with a tangy OG Western bacon cheeseburger, demanding a house made guacamole, loaded guac bacon fired up for the insanely hot El Diablo or craving a classic char world famous star. Give into your flavor cravings. Get your mouth to Carl's Jr.

[Jon Lovett]

Good.

[Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez]

Burger Pod Save America is brought to you by GiveWell. You like to optimize things. You've chosen the perfect credit card to maximize your travel points. Shouldn't you handle your charitable giving the same way? GiveWell spends 50,000 hours every year doing deep dives into different charitable programs to try to find the ways to do the most good for your dollar. Over 100,000 donors used GiveWell to donate more than $2 billion. Rigorous evidence suggests that these donations will save over 200,000 lives and improve the lives of millions more. GiveWell wants as many donors as possible to make informed decisions about high impact giving. You can find all their research and recommendations on their site for free. You can also make tax deductible donations to their recommended funds or charities. And GiveWell doesn't take a cut. Go to givewell.org to find out more or make a donation, select podcast and enter Pod Save America at checkout to make sure they know you heard about them from us. Again, that's givewell.org to donate or to find more.

[Tim Miller]

FX presents say Nothing Based on the.

[Jon Lovett]

Gripping true story in New York times bestseller.

[Tim Miller]

In 1970s Belfast, two young and idealistic.

[Jon Lovett]

Sisters joined the IRA to fight for a united Ireland. Graduating from rioting in the streets to robbing banks and planting bombs. Thirty years later, one of them agrees to a tell all interview about her.

[Tim Miller]

Ferocious and fascinating past under the condition it would only be released after her death. FX's say nothing, all episodes now streaming on Hulu.

[Jon Lovett]

In a race that may be decided by a few votes per precinct in a handful of states, success will come down to persuading people not just to vote for Harris over Trump, but whether to vote at all. Here to talk about that mission, it's Alexandria Ocasio Cortez. Welcome back to the pod.

[Joe Biden]

Thank you. Thanks for having me.

[Jon Lovett]

You've been campaigning and canvassing in Pennsylvania. How are the vibes?

[Joe Biden]

They're good. They're good. You know, I think that the ground game that Democrats have out there is really encouraging. We had a thousand people out canvassing in Allentown, Pennsylvania, but we have a lot of work to do. We need to motivate a lot of people to go to the polls, and it's going to be really, really tight.

[Jon Lovett]

So let's talk about this. You made the case at this labor rally for Harris Walz, and there are.

[Joe Biden]

Two worlds before us right now. One is a road where we do go back, and worse, we're not going to do that. But that is a road where folks take our liberties for granted. That's what that road looks. We can't do that because the only people that we punish are the most vulnerable in this country by sitting this election out. The most vulnerable. And I don't know about you, but I'm not going to make poor families pay for the failures of our government.

[Jon Lovett]

Today and really feel in that speech how much you have thought about the argument to those who might sit this election out. You've also been canvassing in parts of PA that have traditionally had lower turnout. What's the case you're making? Who are you trying to reach and what's the response been?

[Joe Biden]

You know, I think the case is different depending on who we're trying to reach. I've been to places like Reading, Pennsylvania, which is a very Latino and very Puerto Rican city that has historically had very low voter turnout because they haven't seen or experienced. A lot of politicians care about them. And I think that I relate a lot to that. I represent a community that experienced that for a really long time. And so to me, when it comes to that argument, it's doing the work of showing up and actually seeing communities and saying, actually, it's not up to you to have to show up first to have a politician care about you. We need to be able to be out there and see you first. And so I think for a disaffected community like that, that's why it's been very important for me to go to Pennsylvania and go to places like Reading. Then you also have an activist left that is also a place that I come from that is horrified at what we see unfolding in Gaza. I have called it a genocide on the House floor. Many others feel that way as well. And saying, how can we allow our disgust at what is happening be transmitted and communicated? And can we communicate that? Should we communicate that by sitting this election out? To me, that case is a different one. It's a different one than communities that have been disaffected and ignored and are hearing from a politician for the first time. That, to me, that case is very much about the first of all, the stakes of this present moment. It's also about articulating a larger plan and how we get the Democratic Party to shift left. For me, and what I've seen, and also I think what we see in general is that the party moves left in primaries, but when we lose general elections, the Democratic Party shifts dramatically to the right. When elections are close, as we see now, the Democratic Party shifts to the right in general elections. And so to me, it's multifaceted one. A Donald Trump presidency would be utterly catastrophic. It would put vulnerable communities, even more vulnerable communities at risk, in addition to the ones that are at risk right now. So to me, the message that I had in Pennsylvania is I'm not going to punish trans kids in Indiana over this. I'm not going to punish single parents who are feeding their kids with WIC and EBT over this. And we also need to really invest in a long term organizing strategy so that candidates who believe that human rights extend to Palestinians can be elected and supported by a strong, mobilized left in America.

[Jon Lovett]

So it's interesting because what I hear there is basically a very practical case to people who are thinking about how to use their vote in the most effective way when they feel pretty disaffected by their options. At the same time, there is this kind of more emotional or identity driven conversation about this vote, especially online, about that that feels much less driven by just outcomes and much more about. There's a lot of rhetorical questions. How could I bring myself? How could any. How could anyone? And I look, I want to be sympathetic. At the same time, I have this part of myself that she wants to go like, I know, I know, suck it up. We just have to do this. We have to do this right now to save the country and give us any fighting chance. We can ask the hard questions, the rhetorical questions after the election, but you don't do that. You seem to have much more, more discipline and empathy. So how do you think about talking to people that are feeling that way and by the way, whose feeds have been filled with monstrous images who, who have been fed since real and awful images of reality that has alienated them from the political process?

[Joe Biden]

Well, you know, I really can empathize in multiple ways. One is I totally get the frustration and I also totally get where, how people feel about this. First of all, our brains, our minds are, the human brain is not designed to intake this amount of trauma, anger, mass, everything all the time, the same way that people just cannot. Our minds are not built to withstand the trauma of what is happening in Gaza. Palestinians, Americans watching what is happening, you know, seeing this unspeakable violence. It is, it's. We have to understand what that does to our brains and what it does to our minds. But to me, we have a responsibility to set conditions on behalf of individuals who are just experiencing the horrors of what is happening. But also I think it is important that to me, my vote is not about an extension of myself. And I think it's important to validate that there are different ways to looking at voting. Some may look or hear or see who we vote for as an extension of ourselves. And if we look at voting that way, then every single election becomes so much more fraught because you're just never going to find a politician that aligns with you completely in every single way. I don't even agree with my mother on everything. Like, it's just. It will make these decisions much more difficult. But when I think about the history of people's movements and people's struggles, when I think about the enslavement of black Americans and when I think about, you know, Puerto Ricans that were sterilized by the US Government. When I think about people's movements and the horrors that people in the United States endured, they are often both the most radical and the most pragmatic, strategic actors in American history. And we can be both. I draw a lot of inspiration from Latin American organizing and a Latin American left. And we see this a lot in the Latin American left as well. What we need is an activism that is not limited by electoralism only. That doesn't mean rejecting electoralism. It means of thinking of elections as a condition setting strategy for a larger organizing project. We have a lot of work that we need to do and it's not going to be voting alone that stops what happens in Gaza. We need a counter to aipac. We need a voting electorate that supports people who believe in human rights in primary elections. And you need non electoral, of course, organizing strategies as well. But I never ascribe, personally, I do not believe in ascribing to a strategy of giving up the power that we have and allowing this decision to be made not by us.

[Jon Lovett]

So you mentioned this broader organizing of the left and in Latin America. You were just in Puerto Rico and there's something very interesting happening down there and I wanted to ask you about it because it is a kind of organizing that I think in contrast to sometimes what you see on the left in the U.S. something that has been like exciting. There have been a lot of protests that have, that you were saying have become almost like giant parties. You have people like bad bunny getting in, in the fight and you kind of want to be on your side and bad bunny side, I think in general. So what's happening in Puerto Rico and what is the, what are the lessons there, win or lose for progressives organizing against corruption in the U.S. yeah, no.

[Joe Biden]

I mean, I actually think there's a lot of lessons that we can gain from what is happening in Puerto Rico. It's really, really an exciting and utterly historic moment that we're seeing. For a very long time there has been basically a corrupt two party system in Puerto Rico. And but in Puerto Rico, parties are not aligned by left and right, they're aligned by status. So there's a pro statehood party, there's been a pro commonwealth, which is to say like the current status quo party. And for a very long time there was kind of an independence party that got a very, very small amount of the vote. But the problem is that over time, both of these parties, neither one of them really delivered on any sort of status momentum. They used it as a fig leaf for a lot of self serving, corrupt machine type of politics. And we saw this after Hurricane Maria. You had Donald Trump's enormous amount of corruption where millions of dollars were going to his cronies. But you also saw this on the island too. A lot of politicians were misusing funds and everyday people were suffering and people started getting sick of this and they started getting sick of the way the system was being built up. And so around 2018, people started seriously pursuing a third party strategy. This is different than the third party strategy that sometimes we see in the continental US which is like every presidential election someone may come up or you'll see a third party candidate or, you know, pop up for massive statewide seats. But it was a serious, very pragmatic third party coalition party that was saying we're not going to run on a status position, period. We're going to run on good governance and we're going to be an anti corruption party. They're going to have a youth movement at its core, but they're also going to recruit very real and capable legislators and leaders to try to run. And so they started capturing city council seats, they started capturing mayoral seats, they started capturing state assembly and state senate seats. And over the last six years, a lot of progress has been made in a very short period of time. And this year they have formed an alliance with the Independence Party and what is known as Movimiento Ciudad, the Citizens Movement Party in creating a multistatus coalition, saying if you believe in statehood, if you believe in independence, if you believe in commonwealth status, we're going to put all of that aside right now. What matters the most right now is electing politicians that are accountable to the electorate and who aren't corrupt. And this is a really important lesson for the left because, you know, for example, a lot of folks in a more militant decolonial position would say you should never be in coalition. If that's the position that a person has, for example, like super pro independence, they may say you should never be in any sort of alliance with any sort of pro statehood supporter, but that will leave you marginalized in 3% forever. And then all that does is have the people who are most opposed to your position be, you know, continue to be in power or on the opposite side of the spectrum. A pro statehood supporter may say we should never ever, ever be in alliance with independent supporters. But to that end, then all that happens is that you just get these super corrupt people that then represent your party and you'll never have any other option. And so what we're starting to see are the steps of movement. You know, we can't have. Sometimes we can't get to the conclusions that we need to get to because it's not just these systems that we're combating against. We actually need to win a majority of people. And too often we're organizing intra left and the left needs to also organize an electoral majority to our position. I think we've made a lot of momentum to that end. But when we have these conversations, that's why to me, sometimes these decisions, they do need to be much more pragmatic. And our activism is where we can exercise some of our deepest convictions.

[Jon Lovett]

So let's talk about being pragmatic. In the homestretch here. John Kelly, one of Trump's chiefs of staff, went on the record in audio, won't say it on camera for some reason that Trump is a fascist. It's set off a real Trump's a fascist news cycle. Vice President Harris agreed with the sentiment on her CNN town hall with Anderson Cooper. Obviously, Trump is a threat. Also, the Harris campaign is trying to, I think, turn up the anxiety a little bit when people have become a bit inured to the menace that Trump poses. But, you know, you're talking about these two groups of people. How do you translate a story like that into an argument that's either trying to bring out the people who are reluctant to either vote at all or who have concerns about Kamala Harris?

[Joe Biden]

To me, it's about talking about the stakes here in specific ways. You know, I think it's, we need to be very clear about what fascism means. This is not a name that we're calling people. This is a very specific set of policies and actions that will occur. Donald Trump talks about mass deportations. One in every 15 people in the United States lives in a mixed status household. One in every 15. Think about all the people you know, and one out of every 15 of them have a family member who is undocumented. We're talking about breaking up every 15th family in the United States. JD Vance and Project 2025 is not just talking about a national ban on abortion, which if you think you're, quote, unquote safe in New York or Illinois or California, you're not. A national abortion ban would triumph over any state level abortion protection. We are talking about abortion being banned in the United States point blank, period. And not only would it be banned, but unlike the 1970s, today we have a level of surveillance technology which was unthinkable then. And you can be tracked and they want to track you based on any amalgam of information from your cycle, from your Fitbit, from geolocation on your phone if you try to get an abortion anywhere else. We are talking about the jailing of journalists. If you want to know what it looks like, just look at Putin's Russia. And you know, we live in a constant state of injustice and we're always struggling against systems of mass incarceration, of extreme income inequality, of late stage capitalism. That those conditions do exist. There is no conceivable way to compare the current system of injustices that we have when the gasoline is poured on them. By a Donald Trump presidency. And for folks who believe that this will somehow make some sort of just outcome accelerated, Just look at what happened in 2016. We've gone down this path and it's going to be a hundred times worse because Donald Trump knows what mistakes he made the first time now. And he knows that he will not need to install professionals. He just needs to install sycophants. And he's made that very, very, very clear.

[Jon Lovett]

Okay, well, I'm gonna. Sorry, I guess I was gonna. I was gonna end this by saying, what drinks are we going to make on election night? But I guess I'm just going to skip to that right now. Alexandra Ocasio Cortez, thank you so much for coming on the pod. Good luck on the trail.

[Joe Biden]

Of course.

[Jon Lovett]

Get those people. Get those people.

[Joe Biden]

Listen, I do think. One thing that I think is important, John, is that we can't have. I know I just did this, but I'm pausing because when we, yes, we can ask the questions about what's at stake, but I want to be very clear that we also must mobilize for an affirmative vision for this country. We can't just mobilize on fear. We need to be clear about what the stakes are. We do. But I don't believe in a fear only approach. And I'll tell you what I believe. I believe in a bare minimum, listen, $15 minimum wage needed to be passed several years ago, but doing that, day one and fighting a hike that even higher. I believe in guaranteed improved and expanded Medicare available to every single American. I believe in all, you know, a wide swath of our, of our progressive agenda. I understand that a lot of people may say Kamala Harris may or may not believe in these things. First of all, I think she believes in them, like much more on a personal level than oftentimes. What campaign rhetoric 14 days out from an election would have someone believe, but not only that we just can't give up. And I just don't believe in giving up. I've been in that place when I was a waitress and barely made enough in tips to keep my lights on. I did spend some time giving up and being cynical and saying, fuck this. And you know what it got us Nothing. It got us nothing but depression and cynicism and a sense of purposelessness. And it was only when I decided to reject that that we decided to start organizing and having absolute breakthroughs in our electoral process. And I'm not just talking about my victory in the state of New York. DSA has elected state level activists to office that have helped us pass some of the biggest, most progressive policies on the state level. It helps inform what we're having, what's happening on the federal level. Like, we cannot give up. Giving up is a privilege that people just can't afford. We cannot afford to give up on women who are bleeding out in parking lots. I refuse to give up on these folks. And, like, movements wax and wane, and there are times when our power feels like it's waning, and it's really easy to take our ball and go home. But the strength of a movement really depends on the durability of it and the commitment to it.

[Jon Lovett]

So, yeah, no, you said just before you said something in that speech at the labor movement, which sort of struck me. You said. You said some version of, you understand why people feel this tension, they feel this sense of struggle, because we're kind of at this moment between the past and the future. And obviously, that's about Trump is backwards and Kamala is forwards. But it did feel like you were saying something a bit deeper about this moment and about, like, we have. Like, yeah, there have been local elections. Joe Biden is a testament to this on a host of domestic issues. Joe Biden, we moved him. He moved. Moved him. So far, Joe Biden is. His policy positions are so different than where he had started. It is remarkable. That is a testament to what happens when people actually show up.

[Joe Biden]

Mm.

[Jon Lovett]

So everybody's got to show up.

[Joe Biden]

And I can tell you, as an elected, and I work with a lot of other Congress critters, too, like, they pay attention to who got them there. They. They talk about you stick with who took you to the dance. Right. And, like, that's whatever people may want to feel about that phrase, the reality is you don't want people to feel like they can win without you. Losing is not the same thing as winning without you, because losing when people opt out. The fact of the matter is, huge amounts of people don't vote for reasons that are not ideological at all. The way we send a message is by being part of what a politician relies on to get elected in office. And again, if we want to move the party left, we need to be able to engage forcefully in the primary process. Bernie Sanders did this in 2020. But we also need to have a reality check with ourselves, because the left, we need to organize in the primary process, whether it's through electing folks or defending and protecting folks in the primary process as well. And if we can't electorally cash our own checks, then we cannot push the issues forward. And so to me, having a resounding electorate is really important. The reason I can do what I do in Congress is because my electoral margins go up every single cycle. This year I won by the highest primary margin that I have yet, 80 something percent. That is an F U margin where I can then go to House caucus and I'm like, this is what my community believes, this is what is right. And you can come after me with all your APAC dollars that you want, but it's not going to work. It's not going to work around here. And those are the kinds of seats and margins that we need to win by. But we're not going to do it by counting everything out all the time. It's just like this black pill cynicism that that is what is the death of movements, not the birth of them.

[Jon Lovett]

Aoc, thank you so much for your time and for anyone listening. If you've got somebody in your life that has given you the business of this variety, send them. Send them what AOC had to say. Thank you so much for being here. And yeah, let's win this thing, I suppose.

[Joe Biden]

Thank you all so much. Let's do it.

[Jon Lovett]

That's our show for today. Thank you to Tim for co hosting and a huge thanks to AOC for joining us. Dan and John will be back in the feed on Friday morning with a new episode and an interview with Dan Osborne, the independent Senate candidate in Nebraska who surged to a tie with incumbent Republican in a deep red state. Don't miss it. Thanks everybody.

[Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez]

If you want to get ad free episodes, exclusive content and more, consider joining our Friends of the Pod subscription [e-mail] friends and if you're already doom scrolling, don't forget to follow us at podsaveamerica on Instagram, Twitter and YouTube for access to full episodes, bonus content and more. Plus, if you're as opinionated as we are, consider dropping us a review to help boost this episode or spice up the group chat by sharing it with friends, family or randos. You want in on this conversation? Pod Save America is a crooked media production. Our producers are David Toledo and Saul Rubin. Our associate producer. Producer is Farah Safaree. Reed Churlin is our executive editor and Adrian Hill is our executive producer. The show is mixed and edited by Andrew Chadwick. Jordan Cantor is our sound engineer with audio support from Kyle Seglin and Charlotte Landis. Writing support by Hallie Kiefer. Madeline Herringer is our head of news and programming. Matt DeGroat is our head of production Andy Taff is our executive assistant. Thanks to our digital team. Elijah Cohn, Haley Jones, Phoebe Bradford, Joseph Dutra, Ben Hepcote, Mia Kelman, Molly Lobel, Kirill Pelaviev and David Toles.

[Tim Miller]

The kind.

[Jon Lovett]

Of burgers you get today tells you.

[Tim Miller]

A lot about yourself. You're either someone who settles for sad same old same old burgers or you're at a Carl's Jack Jr obsessed with a tangy OG Western bacon cheeseburger demanding a house made guacamole loaded guac bacon fired up for the insanely hot El.

[Jon Lovett]

Diablo or craving a classic char world famous star.

[Tim Miller]

Give in to your flavor cravings. Do your mouth to Carl's Jr Big.

[Jon Lovett]

Burger Good Burger when you use Dove Men Plus Care whole body deodorant, you'll.

[Joe Biden]

Have all day odor protecting from your.

[Jon Lovett]

Pits Private to feed Doveman Whole Body Dio sprays on instantly dry, making you instantly more confident. I do feel fresh. Today you can find Dovemen plus Care Whole Body Dio and the refreshing scents of aloe and bamboo or shea butter and cedar.

[Joe Biden]

Pick it up today at your local Walmart.