Jon Lovett (1:54)

I'm Jon Levitt. I'm Tommy Vitor.

Jon Favreau (1:56)

On today's show, we'll talk about Trump's touching eulogy for Charlie Kirk that included the President's moving declaration that he hates many of us. The news that Jimmy Kimmel's show will return to ABC despite threats from the government and the absolutely insane announcement from Trump and RFK Jr. About the supposed dangers of Tylenol and childhood vaccines. But let's start with what should be the biggest scandal in the country right now. The President is firing prosecutors who refused to arrest Americans on his Enemies list for crimes that they didn't commit. Months ago, Trump picked Eric Siebert to be a U.S. attorney in Virginia. Siebert was ordered to investigate New York Attorney General Tish James for alleged mortgage fraud and former FBI Director James Comey for allegedly lying to Congress. Siebert looked at all the evidence and determined that neither James nor Comey had committed any crimes. When Trump found that out, he wanted Siebert fired. By Friday night, he was gone. On Saturday, Trump posted a statement that was specifically addressed to his attorney general, in which he admitted that Siebert, who he called a, quote, woke rhino, was pushed out because he wouldn't charge James or Comey. Quote, pam, what about Comey? Adam, Shifty, Schiff, Letitia, they're all guilty as hell. We can't delay any longer. It's killing our reputation and credibility. They impeached me twice and indicted me five times, exclamation over nothing. Justice must be served. Now, in case there was any confusion, Trump reiterated the sentiment several times over the weekend.

Jon Lovett (3:26)

Are you disappointed that the U.S. attorney for the Eastern District of Virginia has not prosecuted Letitia James? Do you intend to fire him?

Donald Trump (3:34)

Well, we're gonna see what happens. I am not following it very closely. It looks to me like she's very guilty of something. I said pull it, because he can't be any good.

Jon Lovett (3:43)

So you want him fired? You want him out?

Donald Trump (3:45)

Yeah, I want him out. Yeah.

Jon Lovett (3:47)

In regards to Pam Bondi, who should she focus on as far as bringing accountability?

Donald Trump (3:53)

Everybody, really. It's a big office. He's doing a good job. But focus on everybody. There are a lot of crooked people that were here before me.

Jon Favreau (4:01)

In the normal world that we once lived in, I think this would clearly be an impeachable offense. I'm not surprised by the scheme itself. Still, shocking how Trump is just publicly stating that he wants people he doesn't like charged with crimes they didn't commit. Just very open about it. But what was your reaction to this insanity, Tommy?

Tommy Vietor (4:23)

I mean, we're all old enough to remember that. Normal world. It was 2006. The Bush administration fired eight U.S. attorneys. They claimed us for performance reasons. We later learned it was because the White House wanted them gone, because they weren't vigorously investigating voter fraud cases against Democrats. And I think they were too vigorously investigating other Republicans. And it grew to be such a big scandal that Alberto Gonzalez, the Attorney General at the time, had to resign. And it was a huge stain on the Bush administration. And this is. This is so much worse than that.

Jon Favreau (4:50)

Because that sounds Quaint.

Tommy Vietor (4:51)

This is Trump telling every U.S. attorney, every prosecutor, every DOJ employee that if they don't find ways to prosecute his enemies, he will fire all of them. Again, as you know, these are absurd charges.

Jon Lovett (5:01)

These are.

Tommy Vietor (5:02)

These date back to 2016. And Comey, you know, what they're trying to say is that Comey made false statements to Congress in 2020 about Russian interference in the 2016 election. And, like, whether or not the Steele dossier should have been a part of it or some stupid bullshit. And, like, it's just pure Trump grievance. This is him just ticking through the enemy's list and using the power of the government to get revenge on all of the people he hates.

Jon Lovett (5:25)

Yeah, look, they. They charged me five times. They impeach me. He's describing a whole constellation of unrelated human beings, government levels, institutions. He's not describing any particular crimes even related to that. Right. He wants them going after Tish James for unrelated reasons. That's why they're going after Lisa Cook. Adam Schiff has been accused of a whole sundry list of crimes. And it's interesting that even Todd Blanche, who's Trump's former attorney, now deputy Attorney general, apparently tried to persuade Trump to not go through with this, in part because apparently Siebert has been cooperative on a number of Immigration. Immigration issues. Right. Like, he's not. He's not. He's not a Trump stooge, apparently. Well, he's not so far willing to go so far as to just drum up fake charges against Adam Schiff, but he's not somebody who's, like, some lefty deep inside the government. But even Blanche was overruled, in part because Trump feels like in the first term, he did what the. He occasionally bent to people telling him not to do things like firing U.S. attorneys, and he feels like after he was investigated.

Jon Favreau (6:34)

And.

Jon Lovett (6:34)

And so therefore, he holds the whole idea of independence as being dangerous to him because he constantly commits prosecutable offenses.

Jon Favreau (6:45)

Yeah. And this isn't the first time this has happened. I mean, remember the guy who originally admitted that the government made a mistake in deporting Kilmar Rocia? He was out there. Was the U.S. attorney in Tennessee who wouldn't bring the fake case against Kilmar Abrego Garcia that they. The charges that they drummed up? He's gone. Danielle Sassoon in New York who was prosecuting Eric Adams and refused to drop that case because they wanted to do a quid pro quo with Eric Adams. So this is, like, happening all over the place. It's also interesting you mentioned Todd Blanche didn't want it to happen. The people who are pushing it the hardest, Bill Pulte, who is the, you know, the mortgage fraud king, the obvious person to tell DOJ what to do, right? Yeah. So he's running around, he's trying to get all the enemies on mortgage fraud even though like his own parents and S.C. bessen and a whole bunch of other people have committed what he's alleging that the people who didn't actually commit it have committed. And Ed Martin, the former Jan. 6 attorney who's now the fucking lunatic that couldn't even get confirmed for Jeanine Pirro's job. So now he's the weaponization attorney at doj. So these are the two lunatics now pushing him on this. I mean President of the United States is just out there saying, here's my political enemies, I've decided they're guilty. Make it so.

Tommy Vietor (8:02)

And writing it in a tweet to the point where people are like, is this a dm? Was this supposed to be?

Jon Favreau (8:06)

I thought it was a mistaken dm.

Tommy Vietor (8:07)

It reminded me of like a washed up quarterback who just got on Twitter who was trying to like send a woman in a city he's visiting.

Jon Lovett (8:13)

We're so passive.

Jon Favreau (8:14)

A new.

Tommy Vietor (8:16)

Hey Jan, what are you up to this weekend? Heading to town? This is. I'm thinking of a specific example.

Jon Lovett (8:20)

I remember example. No, it's. I saw people saying that. It didn't occur to me that it like I just like it's inconceivable to me that that that trump DMs. But maybe he does. But, but also like he. Then I thought to myself, is it possible that even in his private correspondence he refers to him as shifty shift like that we don't actually know where the performance ends.

Jon Favreau (8:37)

Good chance.

Jon Lovett (8:38)

But. But I didn't take it to me I didn't think it was a mistake. I didn't get it. He was. He's so. There's such a there look he is doing. He is cocky, he is performing this kind of bluster. Like he's like nobody will object, nobody will stop him. And he hopes that by asserting it it becomes true. And he does like benefit from the fact that like this is a Watergate in a public post. It used to should have taken journalists a whole Robert Redford film worth of investigation into figuring out that the President was willing to say this behind the scenes. He does so in public and he benefits from it because he does it in the open.

Tommy Vietor (9:13)

And if you read the tweet he says, I've reviewed over 30 statements and posts saying, like, same old thing. So it seems like he just read it. He just raged me. I love that he read a bunch of angry suicide.

Jon Favreau (9:21)

I've been scrolling all day. Everyone's like, guilty as hell.

Tommy Vietor (9:24)

Amazing.

Jon Favreau (9:25)

Of course, Republicans in Congress are just up in arms about this, right? Mark Wayne Mullen was interviewed over the weekend on the Sunday shows and was asked, like, what about the president just announcing that he's going after his enemies and he's firing people until he gets an indictment. He goes, well, President Trump is very open and transparent with the American people, and he speaks his mind. That's what his supporters love about him. That's where we are. He's saying it out in the open, so that's okay. This is what people wanted.

Tommy Vietor (9:53)

Well, that's the whole story of The Trump administration 2.0, frankly. It's all happened in the open.

Jon Favreau (9:56)

It's all happened in the open. But it's like, also, you know, I know that Trump remember the line, my success will be my vengeance. That will be my best revenge. And I don't want to go after people, even though I could and all that bullshit.

Jon Lovett (10:08)

Yes. And they did that, right? Because they did view this as a liability. And they pretend they don't. They pretend they don't have liabilities, but they do. And, you know, he went out to the cameras to try to clean this up a little bit and say, like, well, you know, I think that whatever I think is, it's what the DOJ thinks, right? So he's, like, trying to get out there and have. Have it both ways.

Jon Favreau (10:28)

Siebert is. Has been replaced, at least temporarily, with Lindsey Halligan, another one of Trump's former defense attorneys turned White House staffers who has absolutely zero experience as a prosecutor, has never been a prosecutor, and she got the job. The Times also reports that the White House is now focused on the U.S. attorney in Maryland, Kelly Hayes, who did agree to the warrant for the FBI raid of John Bolton's house, but isn't so sure there's enough evidence to bring a case against Adam Schiff. One of the prosecutors who worked for Siebert said to the Washington Post, quote, in terms of what Trump wants, the end result is going to be the same. If you don't have the evidence, you don't have the prosecutors, and you don't have the grand jury all on the same page, it doesn't matter who's in the office. Does that give either of you any comfort that maybe there Are limits to what Trump can do here or still pretty awful?

Tommy Vietor (11:14)

None whatsoever. No comfort here. I mean, these investigations, they can bankrupt you. They can last for years. They can intrude into all parts of your private life and lead to the release of information or personal correspondence that could embarrass you. You can harm your family, you can harm your business associates. Like, it. Just like the best case is an endless political investigation. And there's a worse version that we don't really talk about because it seems kind of paranoid, seems like something Donald Trump would say. But that's a version where a government official distorts some evidence or plants some evidence on you to please Mr. Trump. And I don't think we can rule that out. It's also, like, it's just worth noting that Adam Schiff was elected to provide oversight to the Trump administration, specifically FBI. I mean, we just saw Cash Patel screaming at him at a hearing, and now in the back of his mind, he and his staff are all worried that them doing the jobs that Schiff was elected to do could put them even further in the crosshairs. Like, this is a bad, bad situation.

Senator Elizabeth Warren (12:04)

Yeah.

Jon Lovett (12:04)

Like, I, I want to believe that these are protections, and I think in some ways, they are. Like, we've seen this over and over again. Like, you know, lawyers who make all kinds of outlandish claims in the public square in front of a judge are afraid to do so because they know that there are licenses on the line and there's a standard they're still held to in a courtroom. Also, the Venn diagram of people willing to do Trump's bidding to such a degree, and people that are capable, effective, smart, able to, like, be an effective prosecutor, there's probably not as much overlap in there as Trump would want. That's a good thing. Right? There's a reason Kash Patel is both kind of flunky for Trump and also incompetent. Right. These are groups that have overlap more so than the hyper competent. They have some of those, too. But the part that's really scary to me is there's a reason that we don't that political prosecutions are so dangerous. And it's because we understand that, like, everybody's a person, people make mistakes. And if you draw the, like, if you put the, like, the evil eye of law enforcement on someone just because you don't like their politics, just because they've come after you, just because you're an enemy, they may find something. And we all understand that, like, justice is imperfect and that we are that not every crime everywhere will be found and that we rely on some kind of evenhandedness in it because we understand that once an investigation begins, you have no idea where it's gonna leave. Like, who knows what's. Yes, everybody's. All these people are apparently declaring. And by the way, not so far the people they've claimed. But like, regardless, I'm sure there's lots of people out there that have claimed a second home as their primary residence. Maybe they should be found out for that, but not just because they happen to be on the wrong side of Donald Trump.

Jon Favreau (13:45)

Yeah. I think it's tempting to say, okay, well, if some prosecutor figures out a way to get an indictment in Maryland or Virginia, then maybe the grand or, you know, maybe they'll get a grand jury like they have in D.C. that refuses to indict. Right. Or then if the jury does indict, then you get to a judge and none of these judges in D.C. or Maryland or Virginia are actually going to take this case. They're going to laugh it out of the courtroom. And like, that could be true in a lot of cases. But take the long view of where this is going. Right. They're already, you know, in the New York Times lawsuit that just got thrown out. You know, they shop for the forum, right. They did some forum shopping and found a judge they were hoping to get, Eileen Cannon in Tampa, I'm sure, or one of an Eileen Cannon type judge in Florida. So at some point they can find a grand jury in a red area of the country with a judge who's a, not a, not a first term Trump judge, but maybe a second term Trump judge and a really bad prosecutor. And as fanciful as Tommy's fear about planting evidence may sound, like, I don't know, are we that far away? It's happened. Right. Like, like what's, you know, once you get enough Trump stooges and enough federal judgeships and enough prosecutors, like, this starts becoming more real. And just because you dodge a bunch of political prosecutions now doesn't mean that we can do that down the road. Yeah.

Jon Lovett (15:02)

And all you fight all this out in Alina Haba's masterclass.

Jon Favreau (15:09)

I don't know, I like, to me this is, and I know you're talking to Warren about this and we're not, but like, this is another thing where I saw over the weekend, you know, Chuck Schumer's like asking for a meeting with Donald Trump to negotiate government shutdown and then this happens and he's like, this is the path to dictatorship. It's like, good, okay, I get that. And then. And then, on the other hand, it's time for a meeting with Donald Trump. It's just like, if there's. There's not a good reason as any to not fund this kind of government that's doing this, I don't know. It's crazy. It's. We don't have to get into it, but I'm just like, I don't know what else to be done about this. This is a. It's an impeachable offense. It's obviously not going to be looked at in Congress because Republicans control Congress. I guess it's another reason to make sure that we win the fucking midterms. Because if Republicans can keep controlling Congress, they're going to appoint more of these judges. God forbid they get rid of the filibuster and start actually coming up with laws that some of these prosecutors and juries are going to be like, oh, they did break that law, that crazy law that they just passed. So really, it's a good reason to go out and work hard to win the midterms. The other side of the coin here is that Trump's abusing his power not just to punish his enemies, but to help his friends. We also learned this weekend that Tom Homan, Trump's border czar, was recorded a year ago accepting a $50,000 bribe from FBI agents posing as businessmen who were seeking border security contracts. Homan was a private citizen at the time, but he'd served as Trump's acting director of ICE during the first term and had every reason to believe he would be in a position of power during a second term. MSNBC reported that, quote, several FBI and Justice officials believed that they had a strong criminal case against Homan for conspiracy to commit bribery, according to four people familiar with the probe. But, of course, once Trump won the election, took office, appointed Homan as border czar, the DOJ mysteriously dropped the case. So, you know, as the saying goes, for my friends, everything for my enemies, the law. I guess Republicans are cool with public officials taking bribes so long as they do a good job locking up immigrants without due process.

Tommy Vietor (17:10)

That's how that works.

Jon Lovett (17:11)

Yeah. There's one part of the story that was strange, which is, so this happens. And then they said they wanted to wait to see if he gets a job in the administration and pursues it further. And I just want to understand what was happening in those weeks before Trump takes office, after you have him taking 50 grand in a fucking Kava bag. But then you're just going to wait and see where it goes. And I just like, well, here's where we are, right? They take office and they apparently shut down the investigation. But I do feel like there's some like, very important context that we don't yet have.

Tommy Vietor (17:42)

It just sounds like the deal was if you take the cash, you have to deliver on the quo. You have to quit, but you got to do the quo, you got to deliver the contracts. And that's what they were waiting on, according to all the reporting.

Jon Lovett (17:50)

Right, Right. But he took the 50, $50,000 in a bag. Like, I don't like if he can't deliver on the bribe. He still took the bribe. Right. He can't give somebody.

Tommy Vietor (18:01)

That's what they said.

Jon Favreau (18:01)

That sort of.

Jon Lovett (18:02)

I know, I know that's what they're saying.

Jon Favreau (18:03)

Were they going to go find him?

Tommy Vietor (18:05)

My takeaways were, first of all, lock him up for eating kava. That, that is just like the most mid fucking food. Also, no one has ever looked like a more like a corrupt New York cop more than Tom Homan.

Jon Favreau (18:15)

I mean, you know what I mean? You look like he's going to pull.

Tommy Vietor (18:18)

You over and smash your tail light and then like give you a ticket for it or like kick down your bodega door and like rifle through your cash register. He just like looked. It's also like the, the, it's just like it was such an old school corruption scandal too, you know, like an MSM mainstream media scoop, FBI sting. I don't know.

Jon Lovett (18:36)

As, as classic a story as you get. If you give me this cash, I'll do your bidding for a government contract. Like that is, that is like, that's the classic. That's, that's the. Remember, the, remember, what's his name? Jefferson. Who had the money in the freezer.

Jon Favreau (18:48)

Yeah.

Jon Lovett (18:49)

Whenever there's like a brick cash in.

Tommy Vietor (18:50)

An interesting place, there was Menendez.

Jon Favreau (18:52)

Gold bars.

Jon Lovett (18:52)

Yeah, Gold bars. Like, this is classic stuff. Yeah, this is classic stuff. And now they, the White House has sort of outright denied it and yet apparently there's video of it. So we'd love to see that video and love to have under the. Love to see the video and then come to understand the explanation for the kava bag of cash.

Jon Favreau (19:07)

Yeah. The last paragraph of the MSNBC story sort of cleared up because I'm like, oh, so he wasn't a public official at the time. So what'd you have to do? They asked legal experts about a hypothetical situation similar to the Homan probe. They said a person who promises to Influence federal contracts, when they become a public official, can't be charged under the federal bribery statutes till they are named or appointed. But they could be. Like, there was a conspiracy, possible conspiracy charge. Got it. That they could do. So they were just weighing them. I'm sure that whoever, before Trump took office, they're just like, this is not a strong enough case to go.

Tommy Vietor (19:36)

That's a Merrick Garland shit right there.

Jon Favreau (19:38)

I just said before we. Because it's still a crime, however, for anyone to seek money to improperly influence federal contracts, whether they're a public official or not. That's what I was looking for.

Jon Lovett (19:49)

I'm sorry, you're telling me you have a former Trump official, someone who's about to enter the administration on.

Jon Favreau (19:55)

No. Cause it was September of 24th, so we don't know.

Jon Lovett (19:58)

But. Right. Well, right, but then he's elect. Then Trump is elected. I mean, like, there's months before Trump takes office. Right? I don't remember exactly when Homan found out he was going to be appointed, but he was right when he took the fucking bribe to suggest he'd have a good shot at being in power.

Tommy Vietor (20:09)

He nailed that one.

Jon Lovett (20:10)

Right?

Jon Favreau (20:10)

Like, must have been after that VP debate.

Jon Lovett (20:12)

Right?

Jon Favreau (20:12)

Yeah, sure, yeah.

Jon Lovett (20:14)

Once everyone's. Everyone, look, everyone knows that Tim Waltz nodding was the thing that fucking clinched it.

Jon Favreau (20:18)

You know what? Actually, no, it was that. It was the morning of the View.

Jon Lovett (20:20)

Oh, yeah. Not enough daylight. Not enough daylight. Home. Someone's back, baby, give me the cash. But so what? What I'm trying to wrap my mind was like, okay, great. You want to build a good case. You're just watching this guy go from private citizen to public official. You have it on tape that he took 50 grand. You're not making that information available to the public. Like, what's the. I like, I've just. And again, I say this like I'm genuinely. I'm not. Like, I don't know. I want the answer. I want to understand why. Why this was allowed to go all the way to the point at which Donald Trump is now in charge of his agency.

Tommy Vietor (20:48)

Yeah, and it is like. I was, like, half kidding. It is shocking and old school because it's like cash in a, I assume, brown paper bag because it's shitty ass, kava.

Jon Favreau (20:55)

But, like, you know, then you read.

Tommy Vietor (20:56)

The New York Times, and the report is like, clearly the Trump administration cut a quid pro quo with the United Arab emirates, where the UAE bought $2 billion worth of Trump family crypto. And in exchange, we give them advanced AI chips.

Jon Lovett (21:09)

Yeah, it's like 50 grand, you fucking fag. You call that money that nothing. My.

Jon Favreau (21:15)

Can you just talk about like the again? This is sort of like Trump being out in the open about wanting to prosecute enemies. The reaction to this from Republican MAGA World.

Tommy Vietor (21:24)

Can we.

Jon Favreau (21:25)

Megyn Kelly, who is purportedly a lawyer and purportedly a journalist, her first reaction to the news, we do not care. Don't bother Tom Homan. He's a national treasure.

Tommy Vietor (21:37)

We're just fully tribal. I just thought that was a crazy response.

Jon Lovett (21:41)

And at some point in one of her, one of her long missives about this, she said, oh, there's like no credible evidence according to I guess Trump's own now law enforcement. So she used that as to justify why she said we don't care. I also like this. Who's the we you're speaking for? We. There's a lot of we's.

Jon Favreau (21:56)

This, I mean this. We're talking about the Kirk memorial service too. But everything in the last two weeks has become they. A lot of theys and theys in us. Theys and we.

Tommy Vietor (22:07)

Can I read you something from an insufferable woke lib who wrote about this? They issued no, Charlie Kirk wasn't killed by them. They didn't pull the trigger. One person did, apparently. Young man driven by impulse and a terrible hate. If they were involved, law enforcement would find them and the justice system would hold them accountable.

Jon Favreau (22:23)

Karl Rove, I mean it happened when, you know, Tim Miller like responded to Megyn Kelly's crazy thing about like we don't care. And she wrote back to him, we don't trust you. We don't trust the work of your president's doj. One of yours killed Charlie and then you laughed at our pain and then it went on and on forever. But it's just like really just dangerous.

Jon Lovett (22:45)

It's it like Brainrot again, like you look at like the poll, like Brainrot is the enemy of the republic. It comes for all of us. It comes for people that, that, that, that, that are like in politics. It comes for politicians, big, big famous media personalities like Brainrott. It does not care what, it doesn't care how much money you have, how much power you've had, how much, how much you've, how much power you've gained in politics. And it's like really, it's like really disturbing.

Tommy Vietor (23:13)

Can I just say for my money, the best corruption scandal narrative has been Tiffany Trump's father in law, what's his name? Masoud Bolas or something. So there's A story about him just making up that he's a billionaire, apparently. And then there was the one over the other day where Tiffany Trump and her husband were on a mega yacht owned by a foreign billionaire oil trader. It's just a great little subplot.

Jon Favreau (23:36)

I just. The Hohman thing gets me. So it's, it's just brazen. Especially like how they're treating people that are detained in this country. Detaining U.S. citizens, detaining legal residents, shipping them off to horrific fucking detention centers, inhumane conditions. And then this guy's like $50,000. Great, I'll take it.

Jon Lovett (23:58)

Release the home and files to $50,000.

Tommy Vietor (24:00)

To do a contract that was probably like build an ice detention center that is just essentially dog cages.

Jon Favreau (24:06)

We should say that there is audio tape of this. There is security cameras that saw this, according to the story. So it's gonna be a hard one to cover up because someone somewhere, you.

Tommy Vietor (24:17)

Know, we had footage of Jeffrey Epstein getting offed.

Jon Favreau (24:21)

At least we saw footage.

Jon Lovett (24:22)

We find out that the Kava's second angle was set down and the person behind the register had fallen asleep. And there's no mysterious Hohman like shape moving with a brick of cash.

Jon Favreau (24:33)

It should be one that the, that Congress should be able to subpoena if, especially if Democrats get the get the House back. This episode is sponsored by BetterHelp. Who do you go to in order to solve your life's problems? The group chat, oversharing with strangers. I think everyone knows we do some oversharing with strangers right here.

Tommy Vietor (24:59)

Yeah, a lot of that.

Jon Favreau (24:59)

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Jon Lovett (26:16)

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Jon Favreau (26:48)

So Trump took his all consuming obsession with revenge to a funeral over the weekend. When he spoke at Charlie Kirk's memorial service in Phoenix, about 90,000 people were in attendance, including Trump's cabinet. Tons of Republican electeds. Right wing media stars Elon Musk, who was seen chatting with Trump for the first time since the breakup. The service had the feel of an evangelical megachurch at times, with speakers like JD Vance calling Kirk, quote, a martyr for the Christian faith. Kirk's widow, Erica, who will now run Turning Point usa, gave a speech where she actually forgave her husband's killer and said that the answer to hate is not hated. A message that didn't really land with the event's headliner, Donald Trump. Let's listen to those two clips.

Jon Lovett (27:27)

My husband, Charlie.

Senator Elizabeth Warren (27:31)

He wanted to save.

Jon Lovett (27:36)

Young men.

Senator Elizabeth Warren (27:38)

Just like the one who took his life. That young man.

Jon Lovett (27:45)

I forgive him.

Donald Trump (27:50)

He did not hate his opponents. He wanted the best for them. That's where I disagreed with Charlie. I hate my opponent and I don't want the best for them. I'm sorry. I am sorry, Erica.

Jon Favreau (28:05)

Lovely. Just lovely.

Tommy Vietor (28:08)

It kind of landed like a joke in the room, but it's not funny.

Jon Lovett (28:11)

Yeah, I think he was trying to be glib and funny in the moment, saying, I'm not like him. I'm a worse person.

Tommy Vietor (28:16)

Context cues, sir.

Jon Lovett (28:17)

But he does. But then sort of like, what's then it's like, well, but don't you so.

Tommy Vietor (28:20)

Weird to run into your ex at a memorial service.

Jon Lovett (28:22)

You know, it's one of the. Yeah, but that's why you want. It's a good place to be. Cordial is where you're cordial.

Jon Favreau (28:26)

You know, there are jokes that aren't really jokes.

Jon Lovett (28:29)

Yeah, yeah.

Tommy Vietor (28:31)

All of his jokes aren't really.

Jon Favreau (28:32)

That's what I'm saying.

Jon Lovett (28:33)

It's like Al Franken used to call it.

Jon Favreau (28:34)

I'm a little past the meant it as a joke stuff with him anymore.

Jon Lovett (28:36)

Well, Al Franken had this term, it was called kidding on the square. He tried to get that to take off that. That's what that is. Kidding on the square.

Jon Favreau (28:42)

Yeah.

Jon Lovett (28:42)

It's also like, it's a joke, but he means it.

Jon Favreau (28:44)

We had. We had an assassination. The country is, like, on the brink. And the President, United States goes to the memorial service and is like, I hate my opponents. It's pretty.

Tommy Vietor (28:56)

Yeah, no, I don't disagree at all. I'm just saying how it landed in the room. They all laughed at it, which is like a kind of a surprising reaction to me.

Jon Favreau (29:02)

I bet it was the. I bet it was kind of the nervous. Nervous titter. What did he say? Like, what is happening? What did you guys make of the event?

Tommy Vietor (29:11)

I watched a bunch of it today. It was really two parts. It was part, like, genuine, like, religious service, like mega church band, praise music, et cetera. And then there was this whole Trump rally, basically. And the Erica Kirk speech was entirely about the personal. Their marriage, Charlie's faith. That was a genuinely powerful moment, like forgiving her husband's killer just was in the. The Emanuel AME Church shooting in 2015, when the families of the victims forgave the murderer. But again, I counted nine Trump family, staff or cabinet speakers. So we had Sergio Gore, real headliner, Stephen Miller, Tulsi Gabbard, Marco Rubio, Hegseth RFK, Don Jr. JD Vance, Trump. Then there were, like, media people like Tucker Carlson. There were placards like you'd see at an rnc. There was giant, like, sparkler, firework type things. There was TPOSA branding everywhere. And, like, I'm a WASP from New England, as you guys know, so I find that kind of melding of religion and politics very uncomfortable. But it didn't seem to bother anybody in that room. And I know it's kind of standard in Republican politics at this point.

Jon Favreau (30:14)

So it's just.

Tommy Vietor (30:14)

It was an odd event. I mean, one interesting takeaway just from watching it is a lot of the speakers, like, the overtly Political messaging was almost secondary. The. The hard emphasis was on, like, get married, have a family, follow Christ. It was more like existential stuff, speaking to meaning and purpose. And I just. I'm not saying we should make those arguments specifically, but it was kind of notable that the. There's all these young people who feel like, disconnected and disaffected and avoiding their life and a lack of purpose. And they were speaking to that first. And we do need to find a way to co op some of that because I do think, like, Charlie Kirk was very good at talking about populist economic stuff, but I haven't heard a lot of Democrats, maybe James Taurico is one of them, talking about kind of like the void people are feeling in young people, young men in particular.

Jon Lovett (31:01)

Yeah, it's funny, I had the same. The same note. First of all, the Erica Kirk speech as just a speech I thought was just excellent. It was, I think, very well written. She had a point she wanted to make, and you can take issue with how she describes her deceased husband's politics, but as just a way of conveying a story she was trying to tell. I thought it was like, beautifully done. And the part that does jump out is that part. And I was thinking about him watching this sort of like, kind of revival like event where so many people had turned out. And, you know, Van says, oh, he was martyred for the Christian faith. I don't know about that. But these people are turning out because Charlie Kirk was martyred. He was killed for his views by this person who was radicalized against him. And we need to get more details, but he was martyred and it did bring a lot of people out, and it does give people the opportunity to tell the story they want to tell about him. That's what happens. That's part of what political violence can do. But in watching it, you see that, like, you know, what is right wing politics offering right now? This version of it. And it is, yes, this is the Trump piece of it, like revenge on your enemies. And yes, it's like it's order. Right. Promising you in an uncertain, dangerous world that there can be control and there can be safety. And that feeling of uncertainty you have, like, there's an answer and we're the answer. But there is the third part of it, which is meaning, which is like, we will help tell a story, not just of the country, but of you and where you fit into this time if you don't feel like your life has that connection. And so many decades of message testing and consulting, driven language on the left has drained so much of the moral language out of democratic politics, which is another way of saying we have drained the meaning out of democratic politics. And I, like, I had the same reaction as you to watching this, which is, yes. Like, it's not that we have to have our version of this idea about, like, have a family, whatever. Like, we don't need to figure out, like, the exact.

Tommy Vietor (33:09)

Or overtly religious.

Jon Lovett (33:10)

Right. Or overtly religious, but, like, there is. We have taken morality out of a lot of our political language. You know, we. And I do think it leaves us in moments, especially like this, especially on the left, There's a sort of kind of, like, tinniness to how we respond to things. And I do think that in some ways flows from the fact that, like, we don't have an answer for this third piece of it.

Jon Favreau (33:28)

Yeah. There's a moral language, even to politics, even if you're not religious, that I think we cede by, like, saying, okay, religion is a thing for the right. And I think, you know, you mentioned Telarico. I also think. I mean, Pope Francis did this. Pope Leo is doing this to some extent as well, particularly around issues of poverty, war, immigration, social justice. And I do think that is, you know, it has been somewhat mocked, I think, for a while, in parts of the left. And this is like, if you're not religious, you're not religious. That's fine. There's a big room for secular people in this country, too. And religiosity is declining and has declined over the last several decades for plenty of reasons that are the fault of organized religions themselves.

Jon Lovett (34:17)

Yeah. But then people, you know, walking around with crystals in their pockets, so they're looking for it somewhere.

Jon Favreau (34:21)

They are looking for it. Yeah, right.

Jon Lovett (34:22)

Absolutely.

Jon Favreau (34:23)

Or they're like, you know, they're trying to buy Labubus or whatever.

Jon Lovett (34:26)

Sure, yeah.

Jon Favreau (34:27)

You know, everyone's got their own. It's a lot to put on a Labubu. Everyone's got their own kind of religion. But I do think, you know, it was interesting hearing Erica Kirk talk like, forgive the killer. I was like, now, that is a truly Christian sentiment, because there's a lot of sentiments purported to be Christian that we hear from a lot of the folks on the right. And then I think. I think it does a disservice to Christianity by being like. Because then people who aren't religious are like, if that's Christianity, fuck that. I don't want that. You know? And I think that's why it's so important for folks on the Left who are religious if you happen to be. And again, if you're not, no big deal. But if you happen to be, then, like, talk about what those morals are to you. Right? And talk about what religion means to you. Talk about how it means caring for the stranger and the immigrant and your neighbor and all that kind of stuff. So I totally. I noticed that, too.

Tommy Vietor (35:13)

Yeah. I mean, look, a hundred thousand people were in that room or whatever the total number was because they were looking for something deeper than just, you know, policy, white papers, and for meaning beyond politics. I mean, I think being part of MAGA for them makes them feel like you're part of something greater than yourself. And then there's the religious piece. But, yeah, they're not all in there for public private partnerships or, you know, whatever.

Jon Favreau (35:33)

Well, otherwise you also, if you leave it to them, you get the. And you get this law from the right. Like, you get the worst of the Old Testament, which is just like fire and brimstone and war, and it's like. It's not New Testament Jesus at all. You know, Stephen Miller's speech that. The day that Charlie died, the angels wept, but those tears have been turned into fire in our hearts, and that fire burns with a righteous fury that our enemies cannot comprehend or understand.

Tommy Vietor (35:57)

I wrote down that sentence, too, because the metaphor makes no sense.

Jon Favreau (36:01)

What are you doing?

Tommy Vietor (36:02)

Why are the tears burning?

Jon Lovett (36:03)

You like it when Adele said she turned fire into the rain or whatever.

Jon Favreau (36:06)

Well, he can't sing like Adele.

Jon Lovett (36:08)

That's true.

Tommy Vietor (36:09)

You also, again, we are all old enough to remember when Paul Wellstone died. For those who don't know, he's just.

Jon Favreau (36:14)

I know. We've been telling you.

Tommy Vietor (36:14)

Unbelievable. Heroic U.S. senator from Minnesota died tragically in a plane accident right before the election in 2002, I think.

Jon Lovett (36:22)

Accident. So they got to Tommy, too.

Tommy Vietor (36:23)

Oh, my God. And there was a big memorial service for him that included one of his friends, a former staffer, who said lines like, we are begging you to help us win this Senate election for Paul Wellstone. And that was treated by Republicans who attended and the political press like it was an outrageous, out of bounds, unforgivable breach of decorum or something truly insane.

Jon Favreau (36:49)

It was an insane overreaction at the time. It was. And then you look at something like this. Although I saw some people getting mad that, like, they were signing up people and organizing it at Kirk's memorial service. He would have wanted. Yeah, someone. Someone. Someone offs me, please. Sign people up, send people up. Let's raise some money for the fucking Senate Fund.

Jon Lovett (37:04)

Or whatever and we'll go dark for like a week.

Jon Favreau (37:06)

That's all. That's all.

Tommy Vietor (37:07)

Best of just do a clip show. Just clip show.

Jon Favreau (37:11)

I just want you just, just to help me out and just look through my mentions online. Just fight with my, fight with my enemies, fight with my online.

Tommy Vietor (37:19)

Honestly, like genuinely too soon. Let's keep going.

Jon Favreau (37:33)

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Jon Favreau (39:04)

We did get some good news on Monday. How about that? Disney says Jimmy Kimmel is returning to the air on Tuesday evening. In a statement, the company said they had merely paused Kimmel to quote avoid. Here's a statement that I'm sure was poured over by a lot of lawyers and workshops and a few different drafts to quote avoid Further inflaming a tense situation at an emotional moment for our country. And that Quote, after thoughtful conversations with Jimmy, they're ready for the show to return. Just before the announcement, FCC chair Brendan Carr said during an event in New York that Kimmel had been suspended due to, quote, ratings, not because of anything that's happened at the federal government level, which of course is only true if you pretend he never said to Disney, quote, we can do this the easy way or the hard way, and that if they didn't censor Kimmel, quote, there's going to be additional work for the FCC ahead. Carr's threats got quite a bit of pushback, even from Republicans, even from Trump supporters and officials. Director of National Intelligence Tulsi Gabbard used her appearance at the Kirk Memorial to call for the protection of free speech, joining the likes of Ted Cruz and. And a few members of the right leaning manosphere. Here's Gabbard, followed by Cruz.

Senator Elizabeth Warren (40:10)

I may not agree with what you say, but I will fight to defend to the death with my very life your right to speak. Free speech is the foundation of our democratic republic. We must protect it at all costs, because without it, we'll be lost.

Tommy Vietor (40:29)

Look, look, I like Brandon Carr. He's a good guy. He's the chairman of the fcc. I work closely with him. But what he said there is dangerous as hell.

Jon Favreau (40:39)

He says, we can do this the easy way or we could do this the hard way.

Jon Lovett (40:44)

Oh, no.

Jon Favreau (40:45)

And I gotta say, that's right out of Goodfellas. That's right out of a Mafioso coming in this bar you have here. It'd be a shame if something happened to it.

Jon Lovett (40:56)

Jesus, what accident is this?

Jon Favreau (40:59)

I want to play the last part of that clip. Hey, nice.

Tommy Vietor (41:04)

Bye, Wadi.

Jon Favreau (41:05)

What was that accent? Can we. Yeah, let's do it one more time. That's right out of a Mafioso coming into a bar going, nice bar you have here. It'd be a shame if something happened to it. Nice bar you have here. It's like a.

Jon Lovett (41:18)

It's like a bar.

Jon Favreau (41:19)

Also, there's like a Boston accent in there almost.

Jon Lovett (41:22)

It really reminds me of when Christopher Guest is doing a British accent and waiting for Guffman. Ow are. Ooh. You have to. Because you drop. Because you drop. You dropped the hr.

Tommy Vietor (41:33)

Ooh.

Jon Favreau (41:35)

Shout out, Ted. I mean, yeah, thanks for saying the right thing. I know you're. I know.

Jon Lovett (41:39)

Hey, Ted.

Jon Favreau (41:40)

Good job, Ted Cruz. Good job, Ted Cruz.

Jon Lovett (41:42)

You know what? That was our bias. That's us. That's us having a gut reaction to you expect. And we made fun of you doing the right thing.

Jon Favreau (41:49)

You know, What? We will defend your right to do that terrible fucking accent, to be that lamb, no matter how you can do it everywhere. We will defend your right society.

Jon Lovett (41:56)

Even if the Knights of Columbus come after you for it.

Jon Favreau (41:58)

The Knights of clones. You know, hey, so we're recording this sort of right after the news that he's coming back. So by the time you're hearing it, maybe we'll have more reporting of what actually happened. But before we get that reporting, what do you think happened? What's your guess?

Jon Lovett (42:15)

So, first of all, there was a bunch of people at the memorial that talked about free speech. Even Trump talked about it, and Erica Kirk talked about it. And it's funny that just because this, this event happened in the wake of Brendan Carr saying what he said and that kind of the government jawboning major companies into, into canceling specific shows, like, it seems like a rebuke. I don't know that she meant it as a rebuke necessarily, but the Ted Cruz part of it and a few others were pretty clear. I don't think we know yet. There have been some people talking about this. I think what's name, G. Eliot Morris, was making this point that, that, that searches for cancel Disney plus, like, went through the roof and that, like, everyone overestimates Trump's popularity, his ability to persuade people, especially the corporations and other entities that have kind of bent to him. And my hope is this is in part a response to the scale of the reaction, which maybe they didn't expect. And that's both public facing, but also, like, I do think internal politics still, still matters. And I don't know what happened inside of Disney, but this is a big company for a lot of people that are liberal that didn't get that, that, like, maybe don't bring their politics to work every day, but don't want to feel like they're part of a government crackdown on free speech. And by the way, these are companies that need to make things with a lot of talented people that are not gonna feel excited about working with Disney if Disney is willing to go along with the Trump administration if they, if they bring the hammer down like this. So I think we'll. We'll find out more. And I don't want to overstate the importance of them restoring Jimmy Kimmel, because Brendan Carr said what he said. And my fear is the only lesson he'll draw from it is that he can't say it in public. But I do think it tells us that Donald Trump is not as powerful as he would like.

Tommy Vietor (44:02)

Us to believe Trump would have to lock me up to get Hannah to cancel Disney. I'll tell you that much.

Jon Favreau (44:06)

I know. I started going. I'm like, ooh, Bluey.

Tommy Vietor (44:09)

If we're not lapping Moana or Frozen in My house again, shit's going down.

Jon Favreau (44:13)

Would have been tough, I guess.

Jon Lovett (44:14)

We don't care about democracy.

Jon Favreau (44:15)

That's right. Correct. No, I do.

Tommy Vietor (44:18)

I mean. I mean, I bet, like, ABC brass and Bob Iger were getting a lot of calls from talented people they work with being like, hey, this is really bad. And I guess my question is, do we think this is going to lead people to think, all right, everybody, keep your head down. Like, just everyone chill out a little bit for a little while. We can get through this. Or are people going to feel emboldened and think, maybe it's time to fight? We could win a round. I suspect, like, the corporations will say, keep your head down. Some of the artists will want to fight a little more and stand up for things. I guess we'll find out.

Jon Favreau (44:43)

But I hope people stand up. I hope people are not. I hope people are emboldened. I mean, there's. I have a couple questions about. So one option is that Iger made the move thinking that it wouldn't get the blowback that it did, not just from the public, but from all the people he knows in Hollywood and many of his friends. Right. Well, then I'm saying, then the blowback happened, and then he was like, okay, I'm gonna back off. Then there's another scenario where, from the beginning, Iger wanted to bring him back on the air. But you also have now all the affiliates owned by nexstar and all the affiliates owned by Sinclair saying that they're not gonna air the show. I don't know what it looks like to have Jimmy Kimmel on the air nationally, but then have most of the ABC affiliates across the country, or at least a pretty good portion of them, not air it? And I don't know what that means financially. I don't know what that means. So I'm kind of interested in, like, it could have been, too, that they were trying to figure out how to get all the affiliates back on board. But again, speculation.

Jon Lovett (45:44)

Right. And I do think that, like, given that it was short, if. What the decision was is we're. The affiliates are going along with what Brendan Carr is saying here, and some of them are conservative themselves. If, like, there's a. We haven't heard from Jimmy Kimmel. He hasn't said a word. Right. Like, I do Feel like there's a little bit of if it. If it does get back on. This is, you know, conversations behind the scene. That's about, like, solving the problem quickly when you're not just dealing with Brendan Carr, but you're dealing with the affiliates. So, yeah, like, I think that's totally possible, too.

Jon Favreau (46:13)

Speaking of Jimmy talking about this, what do you guys think the monologue should be?

Tommy Vietor (46:19)

Just a series of jokes about how Brendan Carr looks like he's aged 75 years in the job. Maybe something like that.

Jon Favreau (46:25)

It is funny. I was gonna suggest just like a lot of Brendan Carr specific jokes. Right. Like you say something about the Charlie Kirk stuff. Very quickly, move off, move off that we don't need to, but, like, really go in on Brendan Carr. Probably Trump, too. Yeah, kind of have to.

Jon Lovett (46:41)

You have to. You have to. Yeah. I mean, I guess the question is, like, what? We don't know. Like, all we've had is, like, characterizations of what Kimmel was gonna say on Wednesday. And now we have this statement that says, oh, they've kind of reached a kind of whatever. They've had a good conversation about it and it'll appear on the show. So we just don't know. But I assume you think he does.

Jon Favreau (47:02)

The Ted Cruz accent.

Jon Lovett (47:04)

Yeah, I am walking here.

Tommy Vietor (47:06)

I mean, do you like, they've sort of famously had a rivalry, Right. Then they played one on one basketball. Ted Cruz actually beat Jimmy in one on one basketball. So they have this relationship and you figure he's gonna have to reference this in some way. I mean, Ted Cruz actually did stand up for him when no one else did.

Jon Lovett (47:19)

Yeah, it's not nothing. It's not nothing. We made fun of the accent, but that was the wrong thing to focus on. Shame on us. Shame on us.

Jon Favreau (47:29)

What?

Tommy Vietor (47:29)

The banner.

Jon Favreau (47:29)

Huh? Do you think that the reaction from Cruz and others on the right means that there is like a. There's a real viable opposition to, like, limits on free speech that Trump's not going to go beyond? Or is this just. Or is this just a lucky happenstance? Because you could argue that had Brendan Carr not been so fucking stupid to make the threat on a podcast, then they could have done it quietly and we would have never have known.

Tommy Vietor (47:54)

I think that the Trump administration touched the stove on free speech a couple times in the last week in ways that were meaningful. The worst of the two was Pam Bondi talking about criminalizing hate speech because that got people like Tucker Carlson and Megyn Kelly to be like, whoa, whoa, whoa, hard red line. Like, I support civil Disobedience. If this happens, as you saw in that Megyn Kelly tweet you're reading earlier, a lot of the MAGA folks pretended that Kimmel was pulled off the air because of ratings or bullshit. When we all. We like. It was not. It was not a subtle comment and it was made to a TP USA staffer named Benny Johnson. Right. So like, the context was all there. Again, I do respect Ted Cruz for speaking up. I respect a lot of kind, Trump, curious comedians or conservative voices for speaking up. I do think Brendan Carr made it very easy for them. And the fact that it wasn't just Brendan Carr doing this, this threatening riff on Benny Johnson's show, there was a clear merger before the fcc. About all these affiliate stations that showed you the financial incentives involved here for punishing Jimmy Kimmel.

Jon Lovett (48:57)

Yeah. Whether you play it out right, let's say Brendan Carr doesn't do that interview and doesn't post fucking gifs in response to Brian Stelter and all the rest. And all that happens is there's this outcry about what Jimmy Kimmel said that gets drummed up on the right. There's this debate that takes place online, then nexstar makes this announcement, then Sinclair makes this announcement, and then he's pulled. Right. Is there the same level of First Amendment concern? Probably not. Republicans are united in saying that this was a business decision not led by the government. Even if Brendan Carr is. Is saying different things behind the scene, does that mean Jimmy Kimmel comes back or not? We have no idea. We don't live in that world. But I do think that, to me is unfortunately gonna be one of the lessons they take, which is, hey, Brendan, shut the fuck up.

Tommy Vietor (49:41)

Sounds so stupid.

Jon Lovett (49:42)

Shut the fuck up.

Jon Favreau (49:42)

Gotta start being a little quieter.

Tommy Vietor (49:44)

Ironically, we're all knocking Brendan Carr here, but Trump too is like, yeah, we got one. Another scalp. NBC, you're next.

Jon Lovett (49:49)

That's right.

Jon Favreau (49:49)

That is true.

Jon Lovett (49:50)

That's important too.

Jon Favreau (49:50)

That is true.

Jon Lovett (49:51)

Yeah, but there would be this. Then like, imagine like two weeks from now, right? This all plays out and then two weeks from now, we get a note that you get a reported story in the Times that, like, Brendan Carr actually called that, you know, like all the stuff that's playing out behind the scenes and it's another kind of nobody. Why doesn't anybody care about that? You know, like, you just see, they could. They could do this in a smarter way and be more effective at curtailing speech. Which makes me.

Jon Favreau (50:11)

Yeah, it is true. Like, you can have idiots like Brendan Carr and Pam Bondi. But, like, no matter how buttoned up the administration is, you're always going to have Trump just admitting the thing we got him, you know, which is. Which is. I was just thinking this is why JD Vance is. Is also very dangerous as a nominee, because J.D. vance goes out there and he's like, there's just bad ratings and he wasn't funny, you know, that's all. And then he just leaves it at that. Like, he's. He. This is. This is the consequence of trying to, like, intellectualize everything and make some kind of an argument that's not just, oh, no, no, I hate free speech for people that I don't like. I like it for me. That's. Which is basically Trump's argument. So, you know, he's. He's got a war on free speech. He's also making big gains in his war on science and children's health. Trump teased a big policy announcement on autism during Charlie Kirk's memorial service, which is. You guys. I don't know if everyone knows this, but that's what presidents often do when they go speak at memorial service.

Tommy Vietor (51:05)

There was a whole accomplishments section.

Jon Favreau (51:06)

There was an accomplishment. I think we got to the 20. I think we did a 2020 election riff.

Tommy Vietor (51:10)

We did. There was a. We solved crime in D.C. you can go out to restaurants now.

Jon Favreau (51:14)

Yeah. No, this was exactly what you do during a eulogy. And so the announcement was on Monday. And here's the lead of the AP story about the event Trump held at the White House on this autism announcement. Quote, trump uses platform of presidency to promote unproven ties between Tylenol vaccines and autism without new evidence. That's it. That's the story. But you really have to hear it to believe it. So let's listen to Trump, by the way.

Donald Trump (51:42)

I think I can say that there are certain groups of people that don't take vaccines and don't take any pills that have no autism. Is that a correct statement, by the way?

Senator Elizabeth Warren (51:53)

There are some studies that says with.

Jon Lovett (51:55)

The Amish, for example.

Donald Trump (51:57)

The Amish, yeah, virtually, I hear no, I heard none. See, Bobby wants to be very careful with what he says, and he should, but I'm not so careful with what I say. I think it's very bad. They're pumping. It looks like they're pumping into a horse. You have a little child, little fragile child, and you get a. That of 80 different vaccines. I guess the MMR, I think, should be taken separately. This is based on what I feel. Ideally, a woman won't take Tylenol but if you can't tough it out, if you can't do it, that's what you're going to have to do. You'll take a Tylenol, but it'll be very sparingly. I said, well, let's see how we say that. Acetaminophen. Acetaminophen.

Jon Lovett (52:48)

Got it.

Jon Favreau (52:48)

He got it.

Donald Trump (52:49)

Is that okay?

Jon Favreau (52:50)

Yeah, it was okay. It was okay. This is the guy I want to take my medical advice from next to.

Tommy Vietor (52:55)

America's healthiest man, Robert F. Kennedy, Jr.

Jon Favreau (52:58)

We don't remember 2020. Remember the fucking. The bleach. Remember the Ivermectin? Like, what?

Jon Lovett (53:09)

So just, you know, I. Look, I don't. You know, there is autism among the Amish. It's not. Not a. That's not true.

Jon Favreau (53:17)

There's no difference in incidents. There's just a difference in reporting because they're the Amish. And so people have looked into this, and there's. Yeah, it's. They. They have just as much autism among the Amish as everywhere else.

Jon Lovett (53:26)

Yeah. The problem is that Amish parents can't Google, hey, why does my kid, like, train so much?

Jon Favreau (53:33)

That's. We can't.

Jon Lovett (53:33)

Yes, we can. Yes, we can.

Tommy Vietor (53:35)

I just can't get past Bobby Kennedy's face looking like it was the game ball from Super Bowl 3. You know, he's just like. It's like such a specific leather.

Jon Lovett (53:45)

Oh, yeah.

Jon Favreau (53:46)

It's just.

Tommy Vietor (53:46)

Guy kills me, man.

Jon Favreau (53:49)

So it was like, don't take it, but ask your doctor, but take a low dose. Tough it out. By the way, Tylenol is, like, the only thing that the pregnant women can take for pain. Right. And so now you're gonna tell them to tough it out if they have a fever or pain or whatever else, because no studies link. That's. The large scale studies have not found any reliable evidence that acetaminophen causes autism. And medical experts consider it safe when used appropriately.

Tommy Vietor (54:17)

Look, I saw a stat that said each week, a quarter of U.S. adults use a medicine that contains acetaminophen. So this is a widely used drug, as you said. Yeah, it was like, the only thing women can take to bring down a fever or deal with pain relief when they are pregnant. The problem is there are some studies with. You know, I said. There was one study in Sweden that analyzed the health records of 2.5 million children. Initially, it found a small positive association between women who used cetaminophen and incidents of autism, adhd, and other challenges. But that link went away when they did some Subsequent analysis that incorporated genetics into the passing down of those traits. So there's a lot of data out there, and I think people are looking for reasons or an explanation for why there has been this rise in autism. A lot of people say it's because we're better at diagnosing it now, or we're diagnosing things now that we didn't used to. But the challenge in this case is you can't do pharmaceutical research on pregnant women for obvious reasons, because it would be completely unethical. So it's really hard to pin down the exact causes of problems. And when Trump goes up there and just riffs and is like, did I get that right? Did I nail that stat? It's like, buddy, you're giving guidance about vaccine intakes, use of medicine for pregnant women that people are gonna follow. Like, half the country is gonna treat his gospel, and you're just winging it.

Jon Favreau (55:35)

Based on how he feels. He just. He admitted it. This is how I feel. That's how I feel.

Jon Lovett (55:39)

He also, every once in a while, when he's reading something or saying something, and he kind of realizes there's a logical conclusion that he hasn't thought of before, and so he just says it out loud. Like when he said that there should be some sort of punishment for women, he was just sort of following the train of thought. That's like, well, that seems to be where it would go. Not realize he'd stepped into, like, a more political morass. He says, here, Tylenol may lead to autism, but if women have a high fever, they should take it. So I guess that means if they just can't tough it out anymore, I guess you have to take it like you saw him figure it out in real time. Like, wait a second, what is this advice exactly? Then you look at what he's actually saying, which is that if you're pregnant and you're sick, you don't feel well, you have a terrible headache, you feel bad, generally, you now have the President in your ear being like, do you care about your baby enough to not take this medicine? Or are you going to tough it out based on just, like, completely uncertain medical. Just like, evidence that would not be presented in this way by. By a kook, from a fucking kook. This is not like. This is not like, after careful study. This is not like. This is from an environmental lawyer and dilettante. Yeah.

Jon Favreau (56:49)

And you know why he's doing it? Because we're gonna hear in, I don't know, month from now, maybe even less, he's gonna be like. And then, you know, I stopped the Tylenol for the autism. And now I saw, I just saw the other day, someone printed out something for me. There's no more autism. Have you seen this? Cause I fixed it. I cured autism. Good. Next year it'll be, he cured autism and he'll be wondering why he didn't get the Nobel Prize for that.

Tommy Vietor (57:11)

Well, yeah. Also in, last week, you know, the Advisory Committee on Immunization practices, the aqip, they changed around the way children under four are going to get the MMRV vaccine. And they're just like, it's not worth getting into all the details, but they're going to stretch it out over multiple shots. They're going to make it more painful for the kids. They're going to make it more time consuming. They're going to make it harder for parents to get in to see a doctor and create more friction in the process. That means more people just won't get their kids vaccinated. And this is like RFK and these, these activists who have, don't have the right medical background, like figuring out ways to slowly push their anti vax agenda that isn't fully. Just like banning the use of X.

Jon Favreau (57:50)

I was gonna say. It's really, it's dipping their toes into it. Right? Because what they're doing with MMRV is, you know, you have your MMR and the V is the chickenpox vaccine. And so they're saying now under four, instead of combining them all, which they have for some time now, they're gonna separate them again. So you give them the MMR and then you give them the chickenpox vaccine later. All that's gonna, like the people who are wealthier, who have health insurance, who can go to their doctors and just. And most of those doctors are gonna be like, no, we're still gonna give them to you all at once. But for poorer families from people who rely on going to like a public health clinic, whatever, you're right. It's just gonna be, it's gonna be more inconvenient to get vaccines. And so there's just gonna be fewer parents who remember to go back and get the chickenpox vaccine.

Tommy Vietor (58:34)

And then there he also talked about, like shrinking down the dosage size and giving you more of them. So you had like four of them. He said maybe he was kind of winging it again.

Jon Lovett (58:41)

The other part of this too is it's like just stepping back. Like, he said that in his remarks, something like, what's the Downside? What's the downside? What's the downside? And it's like, it's the doc. The doctors and experts who have, like, worked on vaccine policy and thought about this deeply are trying to protect kids on a vast scale as best as they can. And it's like, why is this the schedule? It's not because they want to load up kids all at once? Because they're what, like fucking sadists? Because they don't want what's best for the kids? No, they, like, looked at the data and they've looked at the, the. What happens when kids don't get vaccine. They look at just the, the time if, as you spread out those vaccines across a whole country, that's a whole bunch more people that aren't vaccinated. And yes, it's unlikely in that whatever few months, right, like that, for, for a whole, for one child, that something goes wrong. But you look at a population on a whole, the end result is more sick kids. Right? Like, that's, that's what this is about. It's like the, it's this sort of like conspiratorial mindset so infused into everything that they're doing. Like, the people that made these recommendations want what's best for the kids because they. And that's all it ever was.

Tommy Vietor (59:45)

But the core of Bobby Kennedy's messaging is that the CDC and FDA and all these medical oversight organizations are just bought and sold by the pharmaceutical industry. And that is what they're telling them, is they're evil, basically.

Jon Lovett (59:58)

Yeah.

Jon Favreau (59:58)

And the experts, the experts are bad because the experts are liberals and liberals are bad. And so you can't trust them. And so we've got to do just something counter to what they've recommended.

Tommy Vietor (60:06)

Yeah, this is a file, this one under Damage that will play out over decades to our country. You might not see an immediate challenge from these types of announcements, but.

Jon Lovett (60:14)

Measles already up. Measles already up.

Jon Favreau (60:16)

Well, we tried to give you some good again. Jimmy Kimmel is going to be back on the air.

Tommy Vietor (60:20)

We'll get that. Yeah, we got that one.

Jon Favreau (60:22)

Chalk that up.

Tommy Vietor (60:22)

One dose of that and a great.

Jon Lovett (60:23)

Day at Advil hq. That buying that crypto paid off for those honchos at Bayer.

Jon Favreau (60:33)

Oh, someone find out if what Trump administration officials started trading, started dumping their Tylenol stock before the, the, the aspirin.

Jon Lovett (60:41)

People put in 50 grand in a kava bag to fork on over to Dr. Oz.

Jon Favreau (60:46)

When we get back from the break, you'll hear Levitt's conversation with Senator Elizabeth Warren. But before we let him get to the serious stuff, I hear there's a brand new Lover Leave it taping this Thursday, September 25th.

Jon Lovett (60:57)

Oh yeah, we got Paul Scheer. We got Hero of the Resistance, Eric Swalwell.

Jon Favreau (61:01)

That's right. And more and more and more. Lovett, are you aware that the housekeeping copy asked me to refer to you as the new king of late night by default?

Jon Lovett (61:12)

By default.

Jon Favreau (61:13)

He also said, hey, you were already crying a little bit, so why not make those tears tears of laughter?

Jon Lovett (61:18)

I think there's like the pop. We're all crying because of politics.

Tommy Vietor (61:20)

I think that was just a note to you.

Jon Favreau (61:24)

It's very weird. It says in italics.

Jon Lovett (61:26)

Just read the fucking copy.

Tommy Vietor (61:31)

Anger John so check out Love or.

Jon Favreau (61:33)

Leave it's upcoming shows and guests and grab tickets, head to cricket.com events and if you can't come in person, there's a fresh pod for you every Saturday, no matter what the FCC has to say about it. Yay. So subscribe to Love it or Leave it now wherever you get.

Jon Lovett (61:45)

See, it's good stuff.

Jon Favreau (61:47)

See, it's not my joke so subscribe to Love it or Leave it now wherever you get your podcasts or watch on YouTube.

Senator Elizabeth Warren (61:56)

Foreign.

Jon Favreau (62:01)

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Jon Lovett (63:45)

Senator Warren, welcome back to Pond Save America. Good to see you.

Senator Elizabeth Warren (63:47)

Thank you. It is always good to be at the podcast.

Jon Lovett (63:51)

Great to have you. We got a lot to get through. We're in shutdown mode. It's looming, looming mode. Senate Republicans rejected the Democratic proposal on Friday that would have reversed a bunch of health care cuts and extended Obamacare health insurance subsidies, which are set to lapse on January 1, will cost people thousands of dollars. They passed that through the big beautiful bill. Senate Minority Leader Chuck Schumer demanded to meet with President Trump. Then President Trump said he's happy to meet. Where are we at? What's next here?

Senator Elizabeth Warren (64:19)

So let me back up just a tiny little bit about where we are for families all across this country. Last spring, the Republicans passed that or into summer big beautiful bill. It will take away health care from 15 million Americans, Medicaid and also some ACA Affordable Care act subsidies. But it will affect the cost of health care for everybody in America. And in fact, some of that is starting to click in right now now, because when hospitals have to deal with uncompensated care, and they do, they got to raise their prices overall. So health insurance companies know they're going to be paying more for people have insurance. So there are folks who are listening to this right now who are getting their letters from their health insurance companies saying things like, oh, you used to pay $700 a month, which I think is wow. But now you're going to have to be paying 1600, 2,100, 2,700. The numbers are coming through and these are huge increases for some people, all because Trump and the Republicans are trying to cut back on the spending, the federal spending on health care. So what's happened is, as you know, we're about to head into, you gotta pass a new budget by September 30 if the government runs out of money and will shut down. So the Republicans can't do that without Democratic votes in the Senate. They gotta have us because they gotta get to 60 and they've only got 53. If they have everybody on their side, which they might not, so they gotta pick up seven or more on our side. And what the Democrats have said is, look, we're happy to talk, but here's our ask. We want you to roll back some of those health care cuts. We want you to roll back the part of the health care cuts where you're going to take away health care from brand new babies and their mamas, where you're going to push seniors out of nursing homes and out onto the street, where you're going to take away the wheelchair and the home health aid from our neighbor who needs some assistance to live independently. We want you to roll some of this back. We're not asking you to spend more money than you were before. We're not asking to advance some huge new health care policy, but by damn, roll back some of these cuts before people start dying. And so far, Donald Trump and the Republicans have said nope.

Jon Lovett (66:56)

Right?

Senator Elizabeth Warren (66:56)

Nope. That's been it. Not. Well, how about this? And could you do that? Nope. Just saying nope. And so Democrats are in the fight. We're out there slugging it right now.

Jon Lovett (67:09)

Okay, but so the Republicans. But we, we're on the other side of them saying no. Right. The House is gone. Republicans went home in an act of bluster. Yep. They control the House. They have the majority in the Senate. They control the White House. They're saying, hey, you're doing what Republicans used to do. You don't have the power. You're trying to gum up the works. We're gonna pass a clean bill and if you wanna take credit for a shutdown, you'll pay a political price for it. So what's the response to that?

Senator Elizabeth Warren (67:36)

The response to that is help a few million people get their health care back. Don't raise prices for everybody who's got private insurance. Don't take a bite out of Medicare, which this bill ultimately will because of other provisions and the fact that it's gonna drive up the national debt. Just don't do that. That we're saying Democrats are willing to fight. And what we're willing to fight for right now is you gotta do better on healthcare for people across this country.

Jon Lovett (68:09)

So just play this out.

Senator Elizabeth Warren (68:11)

Sure.

Jon Lovett (68:12)

Democrats have now decided this is the fight we wanna fight on. This is our ask. It is clear, it is concise, people can understand it. Republicans say no, we enter in a shutdown, they're forcing Vote after vote after vote are Democrats united around holding the line on this issue of healthcare? And is the idea that ultimately you believe the Republicans will blink and Trump will sign a bill that undoes these cuts?

Senator Elizabeth Warren (68:37)

So, yes, the Democrats are together. We know what we're doing. This is a righteous fight. I mean, this is the fight to have. It's a fight that's people can understand and it's a fight that touches every single one person in this country. And can I just do a little side here? Do you remember what was happening exactly a year ago? Right now?

Jon Lovett (68:56)

I don't remember what was happening yesterday.

Senator Elizabeth Warren (68:57)

Okay, well, that's fair. But Donald Trump was standing up saying over and over and over that people should vote for him because on day one he would lower costs for American families. Remember that? He used the phrase over and over on day one. Those were his words. Well, now we're on day 250, 40, 50, something like that. And the price of groceries is up, the price of utilities is up, the price of housing is up, the price of back to school shoes is up. And backpacks and baby strollers, up, up, up, up, up. Price of health care is up. And thanks to Trump and the Republicans and their one piece of legislation, it's about to go up a whole lot more. This matters to American families. They are telling us that what they want is somebody on their side to help reduce costs. Donald Trump not only has done nothing, he's seen the costs go up. He and the Republicans have raised the cost. I think this is the place to throw down and have that fight.

Jon Lovett (70:03)

So there's people making the opposite argument which just says, you're right about all that. He is failing to achieve what he promised. He is in the toilet in his numbers on all of these issues. Right. He has not been able to deliver. Democrats are united on that score, Republicans look bad on that score. And then we're gonna go into a shutdown in which the politics are far murkier. And on a pure, practical, hard nosed political calculation that to some people seems like a stupid idea.

Senator Elizabeth Warren (70:30)

So I gotta say I'm not sure why anybody thinks it's murkier. Now look, it's not for me about the politics we are in.

Jon Lovett (70:39)

I hope it should be.

Senator Elizabeth Warren (70:40)

Why not let me say it slightly differently. It is about getting people the health care they need. And that is a goal we not only can keep in mind, it is a goal we should keep in mind. I think the politics here are very straightforward. We stand up and tell the American people every single day What Donald Trump promised and what they are doing right now, and that all the Democrats are asking for is to roll that back so that millions of people don't lose health care. I think that's a pretty strong place to fight from. And damn if Democrats aren't willing to fight for that, then we got a lot bigger problems.

Jon Lovett (71:21)

So I want to come at it from the other side, and I want to stand this just because I do think it's a genuine. Look, Democrats are in a very tough position. I just want to be clear about this. And I don't think there's a lot of obviously clearly great paths. We are not in power. That is a deep frustration. But the other side of the argument is, now this is. I agree with everything you're saying about health care. Donald Trump is consolidating his power over the federal government. We would be funding something that would be used to go after political enemies, to gut agencies without congressional approval, to allow him to continue doing corrupt deals that enrich him and his family personally, that any imprimatur of Democratic support for funding this government is a kind of normal politics when we need to shut this thing down by any congressional means that we have. And yes, healthcare is a uniting issue, but it's also, in some sense, one in a constellation of really unprecedented assaults on the checks and balances of our society, of the Constitution. Kimmel's back today. Terrific. But trying to abuse the FCC to go after his political enemies. And that this is maybe politically the right fight healthcare, but it's not the truest danger in our society right now.

Senator Elizabeth Warren (72:40)

So I think of this as, nothing succeeds like success. You gotta get some wins, you gotta show that you can stand together, you can stand up when the going gets tough, that you can still all push hard, because that's how we're going to have to take this fight on. I think that, for example, today with Kimmel. Yeah, you're right. Kimmel's back. And yay. That's wonderful. So what's going to be the takeaway? Did it fix everything?

Jon Favreau (73:14)

No.

Senator Elizabeth Warren (73:14)

Should we still be beside ourselves over a president who so openly has made it clear that he wants to control the media, the stories about him, and destroy the First Amendment. And my view on that is, no, we should not relax over any part of this. But there's another part to the takeaway, and that is your voice actually matters. Enough people stood up. Enough people went into the streets, found it different ways. Enough comics stood up, enough people hung out flags, Enough people said, whoa, wait a minute, what happened. That's not right. And yes, it's a small piece of a big, big problem, but it's a toehold on reminding ourselves of our own power. And I think that's what's coming up at the end of the week on this question about health care. We get more people energized, more people mobilized, and we push back. Two good things could come out of this. One is a few million people could get health care coverage who otherwise wouldn't, and some rural hospitals wouldn't close and some cancer research would be restarted. Those would all be good things all by themselves, no matter whatever else happens. But the second is we'd all say, oh, fighting pays off. And look, I'm willing to fight. That's who I am.

Jon Lovett (74:45)

Yeah, yeah.

Senator Elizabeth Warren (74:47)

But we win when we got a lot of us fighting. We've got a lot of us committed. We've got a lot of people who've seen how dark and scary it can get in the middle of a fight and who still realize that it is worthwhile to stick together and stay in the fight. So I think we should do it. I think we will do it. And I think the consequences of doing it, it doesn't win everything everywhere all at once, but it gets us on a winning path, and damn, we need that.

Jon Lovett (75:16)

And you feel like there's 43 of your colleagues that aren't gonna squish.

Senator Elizabeth Warren (75:21)

I do.

Jon Lovett (75:22)

I do. All right. So in other news, TikTok, legally banned since January, but in a completely lawless way. It's still been chugging along. We now have more details on the new deal via Axios that Trump may announce this week the algorithm would be leased to a new company owned by billionaire Trump allies. So problem solved.

Senator Elizabeth Warren (75:43)

Oh, totally. Look, this is the ultimate about the price we pay for corruption. And it's Donald Trump trying to seize media and every possible vehicle. So, yes, getting his buddy Ellison in there and they run it and it all. Guess what? Every algorithm says Donald Trump is the guy. Right. But it's bigger than that. It's how this country has shifted so dramatically. And I don't want to go from. The country was perfect. And now the country is terrible. It's. The country had a lot of problems, and now, man, you thought those were problems they have just magnified. And it's the corruption element you see it by. What does it mean to build an oligarchy? You know, Vladimir Putin puts his buddies in to run things that will make his buddies billionaires, but also means the buddies will use the power and energy of the things they run to support Vladimir Putin. That's the deal. And Donald Trump, big admirer of Vladimir Putin, wants to control. Yes, he wants to control the media, but he wants to control everything, right? He's cutting deals with Nvidia on their ships, Right? He wants a piece of the action. He wants to control, control, control, because he wants to get something back from these guys. He wants money personally. You want to do the crypto play here, but he wants all of these billionaires, all of these tech CEOs, all of these CEOs come in and bend the knee to Donald Trump, offer Donald Trump a. What did they used to call it in Roman times? A tribute.

Jon Lovett (77:35)

Wants to get his beak wet, let's say.

Senator Elizabeth Warren (77:37)

That's right. Wants to dip his beak, isn't that the phrase? And give Donald Trump something. And then, lo and behold, your giant purchase gets approved, your merger gets approved. If you're a foreign country, your tariff gets approved. If you're just a giant international company, your tariff exception gets approved. Right? Your license, your broadcast license remains viable. So Donald Trump is trading the things that are valuable to our nation off to a handful of individual corporate actors for the purpose of increasing Donald Trump's political power and his personal finances.

Jon Lovett (78:28)

So there's two sides to this. One is Donald Trump, through a lot of bluster, has convinced corporations to give him power he couldn't take. Right? We've seen that with Disney, we've seen that with others. But the other side of it is that these corporations, universities, media outlets, law firms, they're not afraid of repercussions from people that believe in democracy. Right? There was no actual organized campaign to boycott Disney. It seems to have happened naturally as people took in the news. And maybe Disney was hopefully caught off guard by that. But Columbia wasn't afraid of its alumni when it went into a deal with Trump. Are we doing enough, those of us that believe in democracy, to lay out the ways in which we will hold companies and institutions accountable for capitulating to Donald Trump? And are there things we should be talking about more?

Senator Elizabeth Warren (79:23)

Yeah. No, we're not doing enough. And yes, there are things we should be talking about a whole lot more. And let me just tie it back. That's why I see the Jimmy Kimmel is just a tiny little spot of light. I don't want to oversell, but it is some light and should remind a whole lot of people. Wait, our voices matter here. And it's the same thing about this upcoming showdown over shutting down the government. Look, this is the moment I say this to everybody in the country right now. This is the moment. If you can't think of somebody whose health care you're willing to fight for, your own, your cousins, your neighbors. If you can't do that, just think, think about Donald Trump's power overall and the Republicans power overall. How they could agree among themselves with no Democrats, with them, to take away health care from 15 million Americans, shut down these hospitals, drive up costs for everybody else. Why? So they could hand out a trillion dollars in tax breaks to a handful of billionaires and billionaire corporations? Get your blood boiling over this. We have a moment, and sometimes you need those moments. You need those moments where people will speak up. You know, in fact, I want to. I want to give you a little piece of this. I get it. It's not always that we. Okay, the rally starts, you know, at 10 o' clock on Saturday. I love it. I love the protests, I love the rallies. But it's lots and lots of ways. You know, where I've spent the last week has been with podcasters who are in the healthcare space. They're not politicians, but, man, they care about access to health care. They care about access to health care for little babies, and they care about it for people in nursing homes. This is a moment where we have a chance to unite. And yeah, we're using different modes than we used before. This is the subject matter in front of us is health care, but it's about power, our power versus their power. We got a chance here, but when you got a chance, you better take it.

Jon Lovett (81:34)

So former Vice President Kamala Harris has a book coming out. She describes being deferential to the Bidens and whether he should seek a second term given the liability age had become as reckless. You know, I know you've talked about this, but do you agree with how the vice President characterizes that moment? And do you believe that that would apply to other leaders as well? Was the leadership of the Democratic Party reckless?

Senator Elizabeth Warren (82:00)

So, look, I haven't read her book, so I shouldn't be speaking about, you know, a summary of. A summary of what she said. But I put it this way. Right now, I think that public service is an honor and a great responsibility. And you get up every day and just try to do your best. And you try to do your best not so you can get reelected, but you try to do your best so you can actually make something happen that's good and that connects to this point by way of saying we, as Democrats, we didn't. Obviously, we did badly in 2024 for me, the way I see it, the little plot of land I stand on is the way we did badly is that we let the billionaire wannabe, tyrant wannabe stand out there and be the guy who talked about the. The economics of American families in a way that they heard. We let him be the guy who said, I hear how it's not working for you, and I'm going to fix that. I'm going to make that a key part of my whole presidency and some other stuff. But this was. This was the thing. After he gets elected, he says when he's first interviewed, why do you think you won? And he said, because I talked every day about lowering costs on day one. And so when you put it, you look backwards, you say, we really screwed up on that. So for me, the lesson I take away from that is I am not screwing up on that one again. And if I can help it, I'm not letting Democrats screw up on that one again. We got to stay focused on this question of what's happening to millions of American families. Why are they loading up on debt? Why are car repossessions on the rise? Why is it that their description of this economy is the lowest it's been in half a century, and what are the things we can do about it? And by the way, that's why the healthcare fight is the right fight to have, but there is more that we need to do there.

Jon Lovett (84:26)

Yeah, I mean, the reason I bring it up is not. I know everyone is sick of looking backwards, nobody more than me. But I asked because I think, I look at this moment, I say, all right, the Democratic brand is in the toilet. People don't trust Democrats. They don't believe Democrats. And I think, well, how did we get here? And part of it was people couldn't feel the effects of economic policies where they had been passed. And we were just. The bully pulpit was empty. Joe Biden was a terrible communicator. And even people that were defending his ability to do the job, I don't think were even honest with themselves enough about how much of a price we're paying for that lack of communication. And then I look at a moment where there are Democratic leaders who aren't endorsing someone like Mamdani, who's inspired a lot of people. And I look at this shutdown fight, and I think, am I gonna look back on this and say I wasn't admitting to myself that I thought we didn't have the leaders in place who. Maybe they're great at organizing, maybe they're great at communicating on the Hill. Maybe they're great internally, but, like, are these the galvanizing leaders who can go toe to toe with Donald Trump right now?

Senator Elizabeth Warren (85:23)

You know, I guess I see this part of it slightly differently. You're here, you've got a damn big microphone. Don't tell me about the leaders of the Democratic Party. You know what the fight is. You can describe this fight in a whole sentence.

Jon Lovett (85:36)

Okay, you're right.

Senator Elizabeth Warren (85:37)

So get in the fight. No, but I'm serious about this. You know, people say to me, who's the leader of the Democratic Party? And my answer to that is, we have 47 people in the United States Senate who are out there in this fight. And you know what we need right now? 47 people in the United States Senate. That is the thing we need the most. We need all 47 of them. Absolutely. At full pedal to the metal on these fights, and we need to get them into these fights. And right now, spending our time shooting at each other, I just don't think that is the place to go. I think the place to go is get in this fight and give it everything you've got. TikTok, we are running out of time.

Jon Lovett (86:26)

I hear that, and I want to be there with you on that. But I'm in an odd numbered year still, and I feel like it's an odd numbered year, so I get to have these kinds of conversations. We're getting into the fall of next year. I want to get together, but I think sometimes, look, this was one of the arguments to say, stop talking about Joe Biden's age in the run. No, but I'm not saying you're doing that. I'm just part of this is, yes, everybody has to pull together. We have a job to do. We shouldn't be turning the microphones against each other to continue the analogy. But at the same time, I look at the Democratic Party, and yes, it's about message, and yes, it's about a plan, but it's also about a base of people that authentically believe in the people that are speaking to them and for them. And I know that. I've watched you campaign. I know that people know what you stand for and have an authentic connection and that you've been fighting for it since you were a writer and professor. I look at aoc, Bernie, Barack Obama, even Bill Clinton. It's not ideological. And I say, all right, these are people who. I understand their worldview, and that gives me confidence when they tell me that they're gonna do something hard or they're gonna compromise, whatever it may be. And I have to go pretty far down the list of leaders of the Democratic Party before I get to people that have that authentic connection to the people they want to lead. And that does make me worried about a shutdown. And I do think it's worth having this fight now rather than looking back next year and saying, wow, we really didn't have people at the microphones that were the right people to lead us.

Senator Elizabeth Warren (88:01)

I see it right now, this minute as we know what the fight is in front of us. I don't need somebody to tell me this. I don't need somebody to say, oh, well, I have this title within the Democratic Party, so I'm going to tell you what to get out there and talk about. I'm the one who decided to come here today. And I hope that's happening with 46 other folks on my side in the Senate and 200 plus on the House side. Because the substance of the fight matters right now. A win matters right now. This is what we're into. And we can't. There is no one voice anywhere who will win this fight by themselves. It is instead we are a party that is still tied to people and the fight that we are having if, if we had held Donald Trump to tell the truth a year ago, if we had just a little bit of here's what we want to do and here's what we are doing for hardworking people. Here's how much we understand about what's broken and here's what we're willing to do to fight for it. A winning fight matters. And it has knock on effects that I think matter here. And this is why I understand they're very sophisticated people who say there's a lot broken and it's not just healthier. Can I tell you a quick story?

Jon Lovett (89:39)

Of course.

Senator Elizabeth Warren (89:40)

Okay. When I was a little girl, I was studying Franklin Delano Roosevelt. I like some fifth grade, you know, thing where you got to copy out some words about him. And I'm sitting on the floor back in Oklahoma, where I'd grown up, and I look up at my grandmother who's in her 90s, and she had lived through the Great Depression. And I just say to anyone who doesn't know, the Great Depression in Oklahoma was the one, two punch of economic catastrophe in a dust bowl unlike the world had ever seen. And my memo and papa got wiped out in the Great Depression, bank failed, lost all the money that they had put away for their retirement, basically had to start over. And so I'm Sitting there while I'm working on this report. And I looked up and I said, mama, do you know who Franklin Roosevelt was? And she smiles at me, she says, of course. And I said, what did he do? And my mama, who had an 8th grade education, read the newspaper every day. She looks up and she said, well, he made it safe to put money in banks and a lot of other good stuff. I think of it this way. You fight very real fights that people can see that touch their lives. And sure, we all have the rest of the fights, too. God bless. There's a lot that was broken. There was a lot that was broken. Creation of the sec, right. All the things that we did following the Great Depression that we saw was broken, that we needed. But the key part is that you've got to reach as many people as you can across this country with the story of what you're fighting for. And that we're all trying on our side to support that, to make sure people don't die, to make sure they don't lose their health care. And that if we can make that clear and get enough pushback that some number of people actually do get their health care restored or their cancer research restored and the Democrats get a win, I think that's a step in the right direction for us.

Jon Lovett (92:12)

So speaking of healthcare, before we let you go, right before we were recording this, there was a bizarre press conference with Donald Trump and RFK Jr. Head of health and Human Services. Trump was speaking. This is a pretty dubious announcement about the connection between acetaminophen and autism, with a recommendation that pregnant women no longer take Tylenol or acetaminophen. This follows the RFK's panel voting against the combined MMR and chickenpox vaccine for kids under 4. What's your reaction to that? And what happens when the President starts rambling? He can't even pronounce acetaminophen, by the way, about healthcare in such an evidence free way.

Senator Elizabeth Warren (93:04)

So I have a couple of responses. The first one is, it just feels like every day we turn on the news and it's the next episode in the Donald Trump show and he gets stirred up about one thing or a different thing or another, saying, and we're all off and running. And today it's this one. But the real people get hurt. And that's the scariest part about this. When RFK Jr had been nominated to be the head of Health and Human Services, there were a lot of folks, not just Democrats, who said, whoa, that guy's been trafficking in Anti vaccine conspiracies. I mean, for a long time, yuck on this stuff. And it's not just yik, it's that could be dangerous to have somebody in that place if he started using his tools to get rid of vaccines. In fact, he'd been making money off suing vaccine companies and bringing in more plaintiffs and stirring people up to sue vaccine companies. So several of us asked him a lot of hard questions during the nomination process and he gave the I want to describe as the right ish answers. Right. They were directionally right. Occasionally he'd say other things that you'd think, wait, what did he just say? But over and over and over he said, I will not take away vaccines from anybody. And now he turns around eight months later and yeah, he, let's face it, he has taken them away. The criteria under which you used to be able to get these vaccines has changed and certain vaccines will not be available or will not be available to certain groups or you'll have to pay lots of money for, you know, you'll have to do an off label use. All of the above. Lots of, lots of speed bumps in the way and in fact, some absolutely can't do this. So I think of this as a moment where we measure one more time, how many checks have been lost on this administration that it's no longer. Yeah, but if all of the vaccine experts and the doctors and scientific evidence and around the world, all the experts and people who study this all the time all say that makes no sense at all, that it just doesn't matter because RFK is off spinning in his own world. And as long as it's an audience of one, as long as he can keep Donald Trump happy, that is all that matters.

Jon Lovett (96:02)

Do you think your colleague Bill Cassidy, he is a doctor, he claimed to have gotten all These reassurances from RFK Jr. Have you talked to him about it? I can't tell. It's hard to tell if he was willfully, was he snowed or did he allow himself to be snowed? I can't tell.

Senator Elizabeth Warren (96:23)

Look, I don't know. I wasn't in the room. I'm not in his head. But I do know that this business around the vaccines that good people who've worked in this field, including Dr. Senator Cassidy, have expressed over and over their deep concerns if Americans are not getting vaccines. So I just look at what he says is a problem and then try to figure out not so much the backwards, where did the wheels come off the bus, but the forward. So what are we going to do about that? Where do we find the place to be able to get these vaccines back to a place, A, where they're available but B, where more people get a truthful answer.

Jon Lovett (97:25)

Yeah.

Senator Elizabeth Warren (97:25)

About the risks of having unvaccinated children.

Jon Lovett (97:30)

And it does seem like with all things, it comes back to win the House.

Senator Elizabeth Warren (97:34)

Yeah. And could we also win the Senate?

Jon Lovett (97:36)

We'd be great to win the Senate too. But either way, build a bipartisan support for vaccines, given that it remains a deeply bipartisan issue. Last question.

Senator Elizabeth Warren (97:46)

Sure.

Jon Lovett (97:47)

What are you streaming? What are you watching? What are you consuming? You know, the ball. I can't even bring up the ballers thing again. It's been years now, but it still shocks the conscience. So what?

Senator Elizabeth Warren (97:55)

Do you like the Pit? Oh, the Pit and Hacks. Have I seen the two best shows ever, ever, ever. I love them both. The Pit was fabulous.

Jon Lovett (98:05)

Have you watched Andor? You're not a Star wars person. You got to watch Andor. Although it's on Disney now that Kimmel's back, are we allowed to have it?

Senator Elizabeth Warren (98:10)

No, I think you're still not. Uh huh. You gotta punish them for a while.

Jon Lovett (98:13)

All right. Well, once they've. Once they've. Once they've come back, once they've, once they've bent the knee to us, once the mouse has come and begged for our forgiveness.

Senator Elizabeth Warren (98:21)

I'm ready.

Jon Lovett (98:22)

You gotta watch Andor.

Senator Elizabeth Warren (98:23)

Okay. I put it on my list.

Jon Lovett (98:24)

All right. Senator Warren, thank you so much for joining us. Good to see you.

Senator Elizabeth Warren (98:26)

Thank you so much for having me here. It's always good to see you. And thanks for staying in the fight.

Jon Lovett (98:32)

Where else would we be, you know?

Senator Elizabeth Warren (98:33)

Yep. Well, as I always say, better to be on the fight than on the sidelines.

Jon Favreau (98:42)

That's our show for today. Thanks to Elizabeth Warren for joining. Dan and I will be back with a new show on Friday. If you want to listen to Pod Save America ad free and get access to exclusive podcasts, go to cricket.com friends to subscribe on Supercast, Substack, YouTube or Apple Podcasts. Also, please consider leaving us a review that helps boost this episode and everything we do here at Crooked. Pod Save America is a crooked Media production. Our producers are David Toledo, Emma Illich Frank and Saul Rubin. Our associate producer is Farah Safari. Austin Fisher is our senior producer. Reed Churlin is our executive editor. Adrienne Hill is our head of news and politics. The show is mixed and edited by Andrew Chadwick. Jordan Kanter is our sound engineer with audio support from Kyle Seglin and Charlotte Landis. Matt de Groat is our head of production. Naomi Sengel is our executive assistant. Thanks to our digital team, Elijah Cohn, Hayley Jones, Ben Hefcoat, Mia Kelman, Kiril Pelaviev, David Toles, and Ryan Young, our production staff is proudly unionized with the Writers Guild of America east.

Jon Lovett (99:52)

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Senator Elizabeth Warren (100:03)

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Jon Lovett (100:04)

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Senator Elizabeth Warren (100:16)

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Jon Lovett (100:17)

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Jon Lovett (100:33)

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