Pete Buttigieg Thinks Democrats Can't Go Back

Summary

Pod Save America: Pete Buttigieg Thinks Democrats Can't Go Back

Release Date: August 10, 2025
Host: Jon Favreau
Guest: Pete Buttigieg, former Mayor of South Bend, Indiana, 2020 Democratic Presidential Candidate, Transportation Secretary in the Biden Administration

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Introduction

In this episode of Pod Save America, host Jon Favreau welcomes former presidential candidate and current Transportation Secretary, Pete Buttigieg. They delve deep into the current state and future of the Democratic Party, addressing pressing issues such as the consolidation of power under Donald Trump, the challenges of redistricting, policy promises, the impact of artificial intelligence, and international relations, particularly concerning Israel and Gaza. The conversation also touches on personal aspects, including how parenting influences political perspectives.

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State of the Democratic Party and Consolidation of Power

Timestamp: 03:08 - 04:38

Pete Buttigieg expresses concern over the current political climate under Donald Trump's second term, comparing its effects to six years of turmoil rather than the typical four-year cycle. He highlights that threats previously perceived as "libertarian fever dreams" are now manifesting, pointing to fears of federal overreach and authoritarianism becoming a reality.

Pete Buttigieg (03:19): "We have to get out at this moment in order to get to that one [rebuilding institutions]."

Buttigieg acknowledges the resilience of individuals and groups standing up against these threats, citing Texas Democrats as a positive example. He emphasizes the critical moment the country faces to rebuild institutions on better terms, moving beyond merely restoring what was lost.

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Gerrymandering and Redistricting

Timestamp: 24:06 - 54:21

The discussion shifts to the contentious issue of gerrymandering, with both hosts and Buttigieg analyzing its impact on the political landscape. Buttigieg argues that Democrats need to engage more aggressively in redistricting battles to counteract Republican dominance, while also advocating for systemic reforms to ensure fair representation.

Pete Buttigieg (08:55): "We can't just ride the same tiger there on and expect it to work out well."

He warns that without proactive measures, Democrats risk further entrenching Republican power, leading to less competitive elections and a lack of fresh leadership within the party. The conversation explores the complexities of redistricting in blue versus red states, ultimately concluding that while Republicans currently have the upper hand, strategic efforts by Democrats can help mitigate the disadvantages.

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Policy Promises and Trust in the Democratic Party

Timestamp: 10:28 - 12:48

Jon Favreau raises concerns about broken promises under the Trump administration, specifically referencing the failure to implement an executive order to reduce the cost of IVF treatments.

Pete Buttigieg (11:12): "We can point to very specific results that are increasingly affecting your actual everyday life."

Buttigieg contrasts this with the Democratic Party's track record, highlighting achievements like the infrastructure bill and the expansion of healthcare through the Affordable Care Act. He acknowledges that rebuilding trust will take time but emphasizes the importance of demonstrating tangible results to voters.

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Artificial Intelligence and Economic Dislocation

Timestamp: 25:58 - 30:45

Both hosts express deep concerns about the rapid advancements in AI and its potential to disrupt the economy and societal norms. Buttigieg discusses the need for policies that ensure the American populace benefits from AI-driven wealth creation and addresses the imminent displacement of workers across various sectors.

Pete Buttigieg (27:33): "We need to make sure that we support that... ensuring that that's part of what you can get from private healthcare."

He advocates for a modernized approach to economic policies, including Universal Basic Income (UBI) as a foundational step, while also recognizing the limitations and need for more comprehensive solutions that address both economic and social dimensions of AI disruption.

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International Relations: Israel and Gaza

Timestamp: 39:21 - 42:35

Buttigieg tackles the complex issue of U.S. support for Israel amidst the ongoing conflict in Gaza. He stresses the necessity of holding Israeli leadership accountable while reaffirming the U.S.'s commitment to Israel's right to exist and defend itself. The conversation covers the importance of seeking a two-state solution to ensure long-term stability and peace in the region.

Pete Buttigieg (40:48): "We need to step back and do whatever it takes to ensure that there is a real two-state solution..."

He critiques the current administration's handling of the situation, advocating for a balanced approach that prioritizes human suffering and long-term geopolitical stability over immediate, unilateral actions.

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Parenting and Political Perspectives

Timestamp: 42:35 - 45:36

The hosts explore how parenthood influences their views on politics. Buttigieg shares how his role as a father motivates him to advocate for a better future, both through policy and personal interactions. They discuss the challenge of balancing political engagement with family life, emphasizing the importance of making political concepts accessible and relatable.

Pete Buttigieg (43:06): "It’s really going to depend on a set of questions and decisions we as a country make here in the 2020s."

Buttigieg highlights the importance of instilling values and ensuring a stable, prosperous environment for the next generation, reinforcing the personal stakes involved in political participation and policy-making.

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Listener Questions: Redistricting and Democratic Future

Timestamp: 49:09 - 73:36

The hosts address several listener-submitted questions, focusing primarily on redistricting and the Democratic Party's future. They discuss the potential outcomes if Democrats engaged in gerrymandering on the same scale as Republicans, concluding that Republicans would likely still maintain a slight advantage. However, they emphasize the importance of fighting back to maintain competitiveness in elections.

Jon Lovett (50:20): "Republicans come out ahead."

They also tackle doubts about the Democratic Party's viability, arguing that despite current challenges, the party remains essential for countering rising authoritarianism. Buttigieg underscores the necessity for internal unity and policy innovation to keep the party relevant and effective.

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Maintaining Voter Engagement and Motivation

Timestamp: 73:00 - 76:56

Addressing the concern of voter disengagement, especially in the face of overwhelming negative news, Buttigieg and Favreau advocate for grassroots organizing and community engagement. They highlight the resurgence of activist movements and the importance of bringing new people into the political fold to sustain long-term involvement and motivate voters to hold the administration accountable.

Jon Favreau (75:30): "It's all about growing the movement."

They encourage listeners to participate in local events, rallies, and town halls to build a robust and active base that can drive change from the ground up.

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Conclusion

The episode wraps up with light-hearted banter and a brief mention of upcoming content. Jon and Jon conclude by reinforcing the importance of community support and active participation in the political process.

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Notable Quotes

• Pete Buttigieg (03:19): "We have to get out at this moment in order to get to that one [rebuilding institutions]."
• Pete Buttigieg (08:55): "We can't just ride the same tiger there on and expect it to work out well."
• Pete Buttigieg (11:12): "We can point to very specific results that are increasingly affecting your actual everyday life."
• Pete Buttigieg (27:33): "We need to make sure that we support that... ensuring that that's part of what you can get from private healthcare."
• Pete Buttigieg (40:48): "We need to step back and do whatever it takes to ensure that there is a real two-state solution..."
• Jon Lovett (50:20): "Republicans come out ahead."
• Jon Favreau (75:30): "It's all about growing the movement."

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Key Takeaways

• Rebuilding Trust and Institutions: The Democratic Party must not only restore but also modernize institutions to better serve the current and future needs of the American public.

• Strategic Redistricting: Active engagement in redistricting battles is crucial for maintaining political competitiveness and ensuring fair representation.

• Addressing AI Disruption: Proactive policies are needed to mitigate the economic and social impacts of artificial intelligence, including wealth redistribution and support for displaced workers.

• Balanced Foreign Policy: U.S. support for Israel must be balanced with accountability and a commitment to a two-state solution to ensure long-term peace and stability.

• Engaging the Next Generation: Parenthood adds a personal dimension to political engagement, emphasizing the importance of creating a better future for children.

• Voter Engagement: Grassroots organizing and community involvement are essential for maintaining voter motivation and holding the administration accountable.

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This comprehensive discussion between Jon Favreau and Pete Buttigieg provides valuable insights into the strategic challenges and opportunities facing the Democratic Party. It underscores the necessity for innovation, grassroots engagement, and a forward-thinking approach to policy-making to navigate the complex political landscape of 2025.

Transcript

[Jon Favreau]

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[Pete Buttigieg]

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[Pete Buttigieg]

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[Jon Favreau]

You're scheduled for immediate shut off unless it's resolved today. Uh, I can help you make your payment right now.

[Pete Buttigieg]

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[Jon Favreau]

Nice try. Visit aarp.org fraudwatchnetwork to recognize fraud sooner. Welcome to Pod Save America. I'm Jon Favreau. My guest this Sunday is Pete Buttigieg, former mayor of South Bend, Indiana, presidential candidate in 2020, transportation secretary in the Biden administration, and now he's just Pete, he's just out there and he's, he's making the rounds. And we're really excited that he sat down with us at pod Save America. We talked about the future of the Democratic Party, whether we're a dictatorship yet. JD Vance, AI Biden and the 2024 campaign. Gaza, lots more. It was a great conversation with Pete. And stick around after the conversation because Jon Lovett is going to join me and we are going to answer a few listener questions. Now, here's my conversation with Pete Buttigieg. Pete, welcome back to the pod.

[Pete Buttigieg]

Thanks. Good to be with you again.

[Jon Favreau]

So we are now six months into Donald Trump's second term. Feels like six years. How are you feeling?

[Pete Buttigieg]

I mean, it's not great, right? So many of the things that we worried about, that we feared that we saw coming, we're seeing even more of that than we would have guessed. And one of the things that strikes me is it's not just the things that the left worried about or that liberals worried about, it's things that traditionally conservatives worried about. I've been thinking back to dorm room arguments I had with libertarians, you know, when I was in college who, who thought that, like, someday if we weren't careful, there would be, you know, masked federal agents snatching people off the streets just because of what they put in an op ed. I was like, that is such a crazy libertarian fever dream. And now that's happening. So all of that, obviously, very bad. At the same time, you know, I'm also seeing a lot of people standing up to this even with very little power in Washington. I see people taking a stand where they can. What's going on with Texas Democrats has been a good example of that. And the other big thing on my mind is that with all of these things, all these institutions in our government and our society being burned down, it's a terrible thing, but also presents a very important moment in our, I think, near future to rebuild them on better terms. There's just the fact that we have to get out at this moment in order to get to that one.

[Jon Favreau]

Yeah, let's talk about getting out of this moment. Rachel Maddow said on her show this week, we do now have a consolidating dictatorship in this country. And I hadn't thought about it in quite such stark terms until she said it. Do you agree? Do you think that's where we are?

[Pete Buttigieg]

I mean, that's definitely what they're trying to do. You know, we could argue the finer points of how successful they've been, but the biggest mark of success by the. By the Trump administration in terms of trying to be that controlling, trying to dictatorial, to me, isn't what's happening directly with the government, it's what's happening indirectly. It's the self editing that we're seeing happen at broadcasters and universities and private firms, law firms and others. That's the real hallmark of losing your grasp on freedom. It's not just direct government interference with everyday private life. It's a society that begins to do things differently because they don't want to run the risk of pissing off the government. And that's just, again, whether you're liberal or conservative or libertarian, that's so the opposite of what America is about. But for that very reason, I think this can be overcome.

[Jon Favreau]

Yeah. So it feels to me like we are in this vicious cycle where a loss of trust in institutions caused people to turn away from politics or turn to Trump, who is now destroying those institutions, which is leading to even less trust, which is leading even more people to turn away from politics, which is letting Trump get away with even more destruction. Do you have thoughts on. On how we break that cycle? Obviously, if we gain power again, we can sort of use that power to restore people's faith in institutions, but first we got to get back to power.

[Pete Buttigieg]

Yeah, I think, actually both of those go hand in hand. So it starts by understanding that, frankly, I think restore might not be the right kind of dominant word for us to be thinking about. I mean, I totally agree with you on restoring trust, but we're not just trying to put back what they've broken. Our political program has to be so much more than that, because it's not just that these institutions have been destroyed. It's that they've actually been on the wrong track for a long time. So you look at usaid, you look at the Department of Education, it is definitely wrong to burn them to the ground. However, it would also be wrong to just try to put them back the way they were in 2024. If we got a magic wand, we're suddenly in charge of everything. We'd be responsible for building institutions that actually made sense in the 2020s. And the reason I think this is related to the other part of your question is actually I think what's right substantively is also very important politically. People don't want a restoration of the status quo. We won't win by saying everything they're doing is wrong. Put us in charge and we'll have it just back the way it was before we wouldn't be here if people could tolerate the problems we were living with, with an economy, a politics, a society that was getting less and less responsive to what the people's needs were. I would argue that throughout our lifetime, you and I are roughly the same age. I think our generation has witnessed more policy failure than not. If we're not on top of that, not only will we not have the right answers should we come to power, but we're gonna have a lot harder time earning our way back to power anyway.

[Jon Favreau]

One decision I feel like Democrats have to make even before we get back into power is, you know, Trump 2.0 consolidated a lot of power in the presidency through arguably legal means. For example, you know, the Department of Justice is supposed to be independent, but there's no law that says that. Should Democrats say, if you put us back in the White House, you know, we'll make sure we'll restore independence, integrity to the Justice Department and the FCC and the Fed? Or should Democrats say, you know, Trump, we're going to use the power that Trump accumulated to show people we can deliver and make sure that someone like Trump doesn't take power again?

[Pete Buttigieg]

Yeah, I think we really have to fix the systems. It can't just be about being an equal and opposite version of Trump. I think in many ways, that's actually a contradiction in terms. And some of the things we're defending are, I don't know, good policies that you could do with the DOJ in the right hands. But one of the biggest things we're defending is the very idea that. That the DOJ shouldn't be operated on political means. So if we take over and do the same thing to advance more liberal policies, don't get me wrong, I want us to advance liberal policies, but we also have to get back to the fundamentals of what it means to have a healthy republic. And you look at things like the gerrymandering situation. Look, if they're gonna do it in Texas, it is, I think, totally appropriate for us to respond and fight fire with fire in other states. But clearly the best answer for the country, and I think in the end, for our party and for all parties, is to actually fix it and actually have fair districts so nobody feels tempted to push that button in the first place. And I know that political reform, structural reform, is usually not a sexy topic, although I'm old enough to remember when John McCain was galvanizing people around campaign finance reform. It can be done, even though it's hard. And I think we've got to, on Things like fair districts, things like money in politics have long argued for us to reform the Supreme Court to make it less political. We can't just ride the same tiger there on and expect it to work out well.

[Jon Favreau]

Trump has now broken a number of promises he made in the election. Plenty of focus on Epstein over the last month, not yet as much focus on the promise we learned he broke this week. The White House told the Washington Post they won't be doing anything to cover IVF if even though Trump promised they would multiple times during the campaign, put out an executive order in February requiring various agencies to report back on the best ways to, you know, reduce the cost of IVF in 50 days, 60 days, nothing has happened. And then the administration told the Post, yeah, it's not going to happen. How do you tell people who voted for him or believed him that they should still trust other politicians when they promise things like that?

[Pete Buttigieg]

Yeah, I mean, I think it's look at the results, right? Look at the promises he's broken, but also look at the promises he's kept. And same for us, right? I mean, look, we came in promising to do both Donald Trump and our side promised to do a big infrastructure bill. He broke his promise and didn't do it. We kept our promise and we did do it. I'm not saying that our side, our party, has been perfect, but I think we can point to very specific results that are increasingly affecting your actual everyday life. So we're not just talking about theories, we're talking about whether you actually can access ivf. We're talking about healthcare. A lot of people, and as somebody who is newly self employed this year, I happen to be one of them. Recently a lot of people have healthcare who would not have been able to get it if it weren't for the ACA and Obamacare. These are real specific things in your life that are different based on who's in charge. And you are running the risk of losing even more a chance at access to IVF or for those who are counting on Medicaid or whole bunch of protections that are being dismantled around us, protections from getting screwed by banks that the CFPB put in that they're getting rid of. We can show that we'll protect you that way because we have and a whole set of other things. So look, building trust is going to take a generation. I think that's just the reality of what our politics have come to. But we're not doing this in a vacuum. We can look at what's actually happened, what they've actually done is actually cut taxes for the wealthiest people in this country and actually cut services for other Americans in order to pay for it.

[Jon Favreau]

Do you think Democrats should run on Trump's promise from the campaign that, you know, insurance companies should be required to cover IVF and fertility treatments?

[Pete Buttigieg]

I think it's good policy. I mean, if we're really serious about being pro family, then we need to make sure that we support that. And that means making sure, whether it's a system of direct government support or whether it's ensuring that that's part of what you can get from private healthcare one way or the other. We've got to recognize that in a country. And by the way, I think that the right has been weird about it, but I don't think we should scoff at those who are interested in making sure that we encourage more people to be able to start families and have more kids if they want to, especially if the reason they're not doing it is artificial issues around cost or access to care. Yeah.

[Jon Favreau]

So I've been thinking about a lot about this speech that J.D. vance gave over the 4th of July weekend at the Claremont Institute, which is a very right wing MAGA think tank for those who don't know. And the reason it's been on my mind is, and I brought it up on the POD last month, I think it's probably the most honest articulation of their political project that I feel like deserves a thoughtful response from our party. And I'm just gonna play the key part for you, and maybe you can.

[Jon Lovett]

Respond if you think about it, identifying.

[Jon Favreau]

America just with agreeing with the principles, let's say, of the Declaration of Independence.

[Jon Lovett]

That's a definition that is way over.

[Jon Favreau]

Inclusive and under inclusive at the same time.

[Jon Lovett]

What do I mean by that?

[Jon Favreau]

Well, first of all, it would include hundreds of millions, maybe billions of foreign citizens who agree with the principles of the Declaration of Independence. Must we admit all of them to tomorrow? If you follow that logic of America as a purely creedal nation, America purely as an idea, that is where it would lead you. But at the same time, that answer would also reject a lot of people that the ADL would label as domestic extremists, even though those very Americans had their ancestors fight in the Revolutionary War and the Civil War. And I happen to think that it's absurd and the modern left seems dedicated to doing this, to saying, you don't belong in America unless you agree with progressive liberalism in 2025. I think the people whose ancestors fought in the Civil War have a Hell of a lot more claim over America than the people who say they don't belong. What do you think about that?

[Pete Buttigieg]

So there's a lot to unpack there. The speech has been on my mind too. Let's start with the straw man, right? Nobody seriously thinks that just because America is a nation committed to ideals that if you agree with the Declaration of Independence, then you get to move here and become a citizen. Like he's just making that up so that he can knock it right down. But then he goes on to basically say that American ideals have nothing to do with what it means to be an American. What really matters is how long your family has been here, which is this kind of blood and soil nationalism that frankly cuts against exactly what makes America special. One way to think about it is the fact that we have the word un American. And that gets thrown around sometimes in some really irresponsible and ugly ways. But the fact we even think about that means that we have some sense that being American, being true to what America is all about, is related to your commitment to our freedoms and to the ideals that are laid out in the Declaration and in the Constitution, that that matters in a way that you just. I don't think you could be un French or un Japanese for a parallel reason. It's a huge part of what's special about America. It's a huge part of why America won the Cold War is because our ideals as well as our everyday life were better. We've got to lay out a way of being American and belonging here that doesn't depend on whether your ancestors fought in the Civil War. Maybe they did and maybe they didn't. Maybe. Great. Although, look, some of those ancestors were fighting against America in the Civil War. So instead of making it about that, let's recognize that everyone who is here is part of the same national project. And it's the experiment in self governance that Lincoln talked about. I don't believe that my mother, who probably does have ancestors who were in the Revolutionary War, is any more or less American than my father, who immigrated here in the 70s to get an education and chose to become an American citizen. It's about our fidelity to the American project, which is exactly what those in power right now are not showing fidelity to the freedoms that make this country what it is.

[Jon Favreau]

I was somewhat surprised to learn that national conservatives and the MAGA right are so open about their distaste for the Declaration of Independence as like a foundation of what it means to be American. But they are. And now we have the vice President of the United States. There's very open about that. I also think it presents us, presents Democrats, presents anyone who isn't fond of Maga or Donald Trump a real opportunity to step in and say we're actually the people who believe in the core values that founded this country, even if the people who founded it were far from perfect.

[Pete Buttigieg]

Totally. And you know what? Another way of talking about what I think Democrats should do is that we should pay attention to two different things. One is policies you can fight over and be against. So more taxation of wealthy people, or the right to abortion or marriage equality or background checks on guns. Those are things you could be against as Democrats. We're for them, most Americans are for them. But it's a legitimate policy fight. There's another set of things that all of us should be able to get behind. And the whole point of the Declaration and the Constitution was to encode those in a way and then make everybody who takes office left, right or center literally put up right hand and swear, I've done it, that you're going to uphold that Constitution. Those universal values. And I don't think there's a better expression of them than the Declaration in the Constitution. I've seen others. I've been part of a project called we hold these Truths, which consists of people from the left, the right, the center coming together to put together statements around something that should be universal, and then we can still fight. But the fighting with regard to those principles is about who's doing a better job of living up to them, not whether they're worthwhile. We shouldn't be sitting around having fights over whether freedom of speech is a good thing. We can argue over whether this or that case lives up to our commitments to freedom of the speech, but those things should not be something that you can be against and hold your head up high in American politics.

[Jon Favreau]

Trump said this week that J.D. vance is his most likely heir apparent. You played J.D. vance in debate prep with Tim Wallace. What are your impressions of him and his seemingly inevitable candidacy in 2028?

[Pete Buttigieg]

Well, I think he's very intelligent. I think he's very smooth. I think he's very capable. That's why we definitely shouldn't. I know there's a temptation to make fun of him, but I can do it with the best of him sometimes when you see how he conducts himself out there. But let's be clear, we're talking about a very smart person, not a very principled person. It didn't take him many years to go from comparing Trump to Hitler, which he did to saying that he ought to be the leader of the free world. This is somebody who made his name talking about being from the industrial Midwest and kind of explaining the industrial Midwest to coastal elites. I know a little bit about what that's like. And then became wealthy, went to Silicon Valley, kind of ran with a lot of people that we would consider to have kind of centrist or even center left values. And then saw the writing on the wall and found this path to power. When you have somebody who's that intelligent and that unprincipled in a role like that, I think it's really dangerous. Especially because to the extent that he has found religion, has found principles other than just trying to take power, he seems to be getting more and more attached to this kind of blood and soil nationalism that, you know, if that prevails, would make us just another country out there instead of the country that we all know and love.

[Jon Favreau]

Yeah. What worries me most about him is that at first I thought, well, he saw a path to this is where the Republican Party was going, this is a path to power for him. But he seems to believe it now. And I think that believing in this sort of blood and soil nationalism is even more alarming than someone who just does it to get ahead. Because it means when the, you know, when push comes to shove, the decisions he would make and is making already in this White House are, are pretty extreme and pretty, pretty far from what the Constitution declarations say. I mean he is, you know, he has, I just heard him say the other week, he's like, me and Stephen Miller are the most far right on immigration in the whole White House.

[Pete Buttigieg]

Yep, I could believe that. And yeah, look at the end of the day I can't scan his soul to know whether he just shape shifted his way into this or whether he's believed this all along and it's finally come to light. But either way, you know, you've got somebody who really wants America to become an ethno national state. And there's a lot of countries like that out there. One of the best things about America is that we're not one of them.

[Jon Lovett]

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[Jon Favreau]

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[Jon Favreau]

Let's talk about Democrats. On one hand, not surprising that voters hold an unfavorable view of the Democratic party right now. Just party just lost a very big important election. Democratic voters naturally pissed about that. On the other, the party has the lowest favorability rating in like three or four decades. What do you think?

[Pete Buttigieg]

That's about a lot of things. I mean one, that's how it feels when you're out of power. Two, I think a sense that the party, especially the party with a capital P just hasn't been responsive to what's most on voters minds. And I think now a desire to see us aiming a little higher and being more ambitious in our ideas. And look, we always run the risk of fighting the last war thinking a little too hard about the last election instead of the next one. I actually think we have an enormous opportunity as a party to get ahead of the issues that are coming our way. You think about something like AI this is one of the most economically, socially, politically transformative things to hit this country since the founding and we can learn a lot, especially a lot from things that didn't go quite right in terms of how we handled the arrival of the Internet or the arrival of trade and automation, that really created a lot of wreckage. Where I was growing up in Indiana in the 1990s and early 2000s, we can offer something different and better. That's a proactive vision instead of what we're seeing from the administration right now, which is basically checking AI to make sure it isn't too woke, whatever that means.

[Jon Favreau]

I think about AI a lot and I've been really getting worried about it. And I saw that you wrote a substack on it, which was great. But I share your concerns, which is people talk a lot about, oh, are the robots going to kill us all? Sort of the more apocalyptic versions of what happens with AI. I worry about the economic dislocation, which it seems like no one is talking about as much or enough. I haven't heard or seen any great policy ideas to deal with it other than like, you know, some people giving a nod to universal basic income. But it doesn't seem like giving people, you know, a thousand dollars a month when they have no job and no prospect for another kind of job is gonna really, is gonna really do it. I also worry that our political system did not adequately help cushion the blow of post industrial transformation. And that was when our political system was less broken than it is now. It's even like we can barely handle keeping the government open, let alone trying to figure out policies to deal with AI. And that's on the economic side. And then on the. Just, you know, and you've written this, it's just, it's about changing, like what it means to be human and what it means to interact with one another. And I really, you know, you have kids, I have kids. Like, I really worry about, you know, setting a kid up with a chatbot and that becomes the important relationship and friendship in their lives. Have, I know you've been looking into this. Have you seen or come across any interesting ideas that you feel like, okay, this, this might not solve our problems, but this could, like, take us in the right direction on AI?

[Pete Buttigieg]

Well, I think there are some important ideas that are being developed around how to make sure that the American people get more of a share of the enormous wealth that's being created with AI because in addition to all of the problems that you just listed, which I think are massive, there's also the fact that we already have a level of concentration of power and wealth in this country that as a general rule, is hard for a democracy to survive. And it's about to. Or at least it could get Much, much more concentrated because so much wealth and value accumul to the handful of people who own these AI models and the associated physical plant of the chips and the processing, the data centers. So I think for that reason as well as the fact that a lot of people are going to experience economic disruption, finding a way to get people dealt in ideally on some share of the value being created, I think UBI Universal Basic Income, that was kind of the 1.0 answer to this. It was very fashionable about 10 years ago. I think we've learned a lot about why it wasn't quite delivering the values as advertised. But I do think as we think about the next response to that, the core of it's important, which is we need to make people whole, we need to get them kind of dealt in on the value being created, which is only fair since these things trained on data that all of us put out there and the fact that the American taxpayer literally funded the invention of the Internet. I think there's a way to do this where business still gets to be business, but Americans get, get a piece of the pie. And we've got to pay attention to that. Because I was there as a kid when they came along to my part of the country in what is now the so called rust belt and said, guess what, all this technology is coming, all this trade's coming, don't worry about your slice because the pie is going to get so much bigger that everyone will be better off. And guess what? The pie got bigger, but not everyone was better off. This is going to be faster and more intense than that. We can get it right this time, but even if we fix the income issues, there's a profound set of issues around belonging that I think we need to pay more attention to. This is where retraining, which I think is very popular, definitely in the Democratic party around the time I was coming to age, misses something fundamentally important, which is that what you do for a living is not just how you make your money, it's how you fit, it's who you are. Now that I have kids, they're three, they're about to be four. I see how they look at the world and they totally understand somebody's existence as a grownup based on whether they're a teacher or a firefighter or a worker, whatever it is they do. Add to that the fact that as fundamentally important as your job, your trade is for blue collar workers who've been displaced, especially by trade and automation. Many of the white collar workers who are about to be displaced, some of them are even more intensely wrapped up in their job as a sense of who they are. Think about how important it is, is to doctors that they're doctors. Right. And frankly, doctors, architects, engineers, lawyers, programmers are among those whose whole industries may be disrupted profoundly not in 30 years, but in like three to five.

[Jon Favreau]

Yeah, no, it's, it's, it's concerning. One of the debates from 2024 that I'm still having with myself is. We know the top concern of most voters for the last few decades, especially now, has either been jobs or cost of living economic issues. And that's obviously especially true today. People want to know who's going to fight to make their lives better. So as Democrats, let's talk about that. But also, as we talked about, Donald Trump's, you know, secret police force is rounding people up without due process and he wants to send the military to more cities and he's extorting any company or institution or ally that disagrees with him. It is tempting to say we should obviously talk about both, but we're also competing for people's attention with all the other dumb crazy shit in their algorithmic feeds. What is the central argument you think Democrats should be making to people in the next few years, knowing that we have this very difficult information environment with which to get our message through?

[Pete Buttigieg]

So to me, the touchstone is everyday life. And the argument is it doesn't have to be this way. Everything in your life, from what it's like to deal with a cable company to whether you can afford to buy a home, to the kinds of dumb political arguments you're having with your uncle, could all be better if we had different and better leadership. And with the technologies we were just talking about, the political developments and so many other things changing, we actually have a shot to get it more right than it's been in a very long time. Which we better, because right now it's more wrong than it's been in a very long time. And if we're talking about everyday life, I do think that starts with the economy. That starts with, do you have a good steady job? Can you afford with the pay that you get from that job to get the things that you want and need in your life, from healthcare to childcare to housing. And I think that we would be well served to be extremely disciplined in talking about that. But we can talk about the other issues, the high minded, academic almost sounding stuff about freedom and democracy in terms of that everyday life. I mean, part of how I talk about it is the cast of characters who are in charge right now. So if we had a functioning Congress capable of standing up to the president, if he wasn't trying to be a dictator and roll people, then you wouldn't be getting some of the appointees that we now have in charge of our lives. And this is not an academic thing, right? Like your kid and my kid is less safe because we have just learned that RFK is canceling the development of vaccines that could get us ahead of bird flu. Like that's a real thing that will affect our lives. And I don't think it would happen under a left or right administration if we had a healthier democracy. The Secretary of Education, the person in charge of educating our kids, has given speeches talking about A1, which means she doesn't understand that it stands for AI, which means she is unaware of the most important development affecting education since the invention of the pencil, that's definitely going to affect your school and your kid. And it wouldn't happen if we had a functioning democracy, which is part of what we're trying to build here. So I think we can tie all of these things together, but the touchstone always has to be things that we can explain in terms of everyday life, not just for political reasons, but because philosophically, I believe that's the whole point of being in politics in the first place, is that if we get it right, everyday life gets better.

[Jon Favreau]

So I don't think this is the biggest problem. But in the bucket of trust issues that people have with the Democratic Party, one thing I worry about is that the Democratic Party has real work to do rebuilding trust with voters after an election where most of the Democratic establishment assured them that Joe Biden was still the strongest candidate to run against Trump until it was almost too late. And look, I mean, I voiced concerns about Biden after the debate. I voiced some concerns before the debate. I still wish I had said more earlier. First because I wanted to win the election, but also because I do worry about sort of in a low trust environment, further eroding trust with voters. Voters who think, well, politicians are all the same and it's all a system and everyone takes care of each other. Am I wrong to worry about that?

[Pete Buttigieg]

No, I think that's on a lot of people's minds. And I think we've got to take seriously the conversations people are having, the questions they have. Look, to me, it was a matter of. Yes, it became clear, clearer and clearer, especially after the debate, that it would be better to have a different nominee. And eventually even Joe Biden himself came to understand and admit that and act accordingly. Another thing was also true, which is that when Joe Biden was the nominee for a lot of us, certainly for me, it was very clear that our country needed the outcome of that election to be Joe Biden and not Donald Trump as our next president. Because it's one thing to have somebody who is old, who is also a good man, who has led the way on good policies, and it's another to have somebody who attempted to overthrow the constitutional system of this country. So the choice was clear, but the choice got better when President Biden stepped aside. And there's going to be a lot of coulda, shoulda, woulda about 2024. But you can also tell how different our country and our world is becoming before our eyes. And that much more will it be true by 2026, by 2028 and beyond.

[Jon Favreau]

You and I have certainly witnessed quite a few intraparty ideological fights over the years. You experienced them during the 2020 primary. What lessons have you taken from those? As we head into a few years of primaries that will almost certainly feature spirited ideological debates within the Democratic Party.

[Pete Buttigieg]

The biggest thing for me is the importance of couching whatever you're getting from the Internet in actual offline conversations with people about where they want the country to go. I think our whole party, myself included, got very absorbed in largely online fights, I think. Now, don't get me wrong, I mean, look, digital media are probably more important than a lot of traditional media now in terms of how people get their information. But the structure of them, the way the algorithm works, makes it way too easy to confuse the loudest voices with most voices. And I think we learned a lot of things the hard way in that cycle and in some of the things that have happened since. I'm a big believer for a lot of reasons, but this is one of them. In spending more time offline in old fashioned interaction with people where you watch the faces rise and fall, you talk to them. I learned so much doing five town halls a day in Iowa that you just can't learn from reading reports or polls or that torrent of feedback that comes that just gets mainlined into us through these algorithms. And I think we need to look when we have a strong position that is morally important, we're going to take it and we're going to defend it. We're also going to try to do it in a way that meets people where they are instead of sticking a finger in their eye. And right now, the logic of the feed is that it serves up one of Two things. Here's this person I already agree with, looking good. Here's this person I already don't like doing something that reminds me why I don't like them. And that's it. Those are not the center of gravity of what a healthy politics is about.

[Jon Favreau]

Yeah. How much attention have you paid to the abundance discourse?

[Pete Buttigieg]

A lot. And look, I think that a lot of what they identified really reminds me of some of the biggest frustrations and challenges that we had when I was trying to build things across the country. I'm proud of what we got done. We got more than 20,000 transportation projects done across the country, but we could have done more quicker. And it's really important, especially if we want to meet the challenges of the green energy economy, the need to have more distribution of power, the need to deal with housing, that we not allow a kind of proceduralism to get in our way. Now, look, we're going to do the right thing. I think we always need to be committed to inclusive and thorough processes. But another example of something that we can do differently than just warming up the things we inherited is to think anew in a way that we haven't maybe since the 30s, 40s, and 50s about what it means to have enough process that there's not terrible unintended consequences when we go to build something or do something and at the same time have it be nimble enough that things actually get done.

[Jon Favreau]

One issue that's increasingly dividing both parties is the war in Gaza. More than half of Senate Democrats just voted to oppose the sale of over half a billion dollars worth of U.S. bombs and guns to Israel. A lot of them are longtime supporters of Israel. Would you have voted to oppose sending those weapons?

[Pete Buttigieg]

I think we need to insist that if American taxpayer funding is going to weaponry that is going to Israel, that that is not going to things that shock the conscience. And look, we see images every day that shock the conscience. So much of this is complicated. But what's not complicated is that if a child is starving because of a choice made by a government that is unconscionable. And we, I think, especially including voices who care about Israel, who believe in Israel's right to exist, who have stood with Israel in response to the unbelievable cruelty and terrorism of October 7th, I think there's a reason why so many of those voices are speaking up now, too. Because this is not just something that is on its face and in itself a moral catastrophe. It is also a catastrophe for Israel for the long run.

[Jon Favreau]

How do you think the next administration should handle our relationship with Israel. Do you think it should change based on what Netanyahu has done the last several years?

[Pete Buttigieg]

Well, certainly Netanyahu can't be the only voice or kind of the only compass for what should happen in the US Israel relationship. And no matter how strongly or especially because of how strongly you might believe in Israel's right to exist and defend itself, you don't have to make excuses for the choices that Netanyahu is making, especially because they are often made not only in the name of the Israeli people, but in the name of a US Alliance. I think that we, as Israel's strongest ally and friend, you put your arm around your friend when there's something like this going on and talk about what we're prepared to do together. And it cannot be, certainly cannot be what we see right now from this administration and this president talking about beachfront property in Gaza before he's prepared to talk about human suffering in Gaza.

[Jon Favreau]

Do you think it's time to recognize a Palestinian state?

[Pete Buttigieg]

I think that's a profound question that arouses a lot of the biggest problems that have happened with Israel's survival, Israel's right to survival in the diplomatic scene. And many of the people who have taken that step historically have done so for different reasons than what we see happening with European countries. I think we need to step back and we need to do whatever it takes to ensure that there is a real two state solution and that no one, not even the likes of Netanyahu, can veto the international community's commitment to a two state solution where you have Palestinians and Israelis living with safety, with security, with rights. I believe that can happen, but we have to actually show some commitment to it.

[Jon Favreau]

We were talking earlier about our kids. On one hand, I feel like having kids has made me more committed to politics because of the very cliched but true reason that I want to leave them a better country than this. On the other, it's also made me wonder about the time and emotional energy I'm spending on politics in the Trump era that perhaps I could be spending on them. Is that something you think about? How has being a father sort of changed in this time period changed your view about politics? Or has it?

[Pete Buttigieg]

I think it's really good for you to spend, especially if you're as involved in politics as you and I are. I think it's really good for you to spend time with somebody who doesn't think or care about it. And, you know, there's no more kind of beautiful, innocent version of that than a three or four year old. But then it also makes me think more about politics in some ways because I know that, you know, there are these people now who are the most important people in my life who are going to witness the 22nd century and everything about what that moment will be like. Or for that matter, a moment much sooner in the middle of this century when I still hope I'm around. But when they're making their way in life as adults, it's really going to depend on a set of questions and decisions we as a country make here in the 2020s. I can see them asking me what it was like in the 2020s, the same way I asked my parents what it was like in the 60s. And I want to make sure I have good answers by the time that happens and by the time that moment comes. But also, it's a beautiful thing just to be able to, just to be able to spend time with them and talk about anything but politics. I mean, the latest has been. Our son asked about the origin story of Spider man. And then I told him the origin story as best I remember it from the movie. And then very Predictably, the next 10 minutes were spent answering variations of the question, where are there active radio spiders? Where can I find an active radio spider? He clearly intends to find a radioactive spider or an active radio spider, as he calls it, and get bit by one and just like talking him through, like trying to redirect that agenda. Very healthy change of scene from the stuff I think about most of the time when I'm doing my bread and.

[Jon Favreau]

Butter politics, I was going to say it has made me think our job is communicating clearly to people, persuading people. And you just realize when you have little kids that just trying to explain abstract concepts, but you're not allowed to explain the abstract concept with another abstract concept or abstract word. It does help you sort of break things down to the basics to try to, to try to communicate with them. And, and, and it makes you think about sort of how we talk in politics, which is often so removed from how most people talk about their lives.

[Pete Buttigieg]

Totally. I mean, making it make sense to a kid is one of the best ways to make sure something makes sense in the first place. And a lot of the things we have that don't make sense, like how can you get more votes and not be the winner, they don't make sense to a kid because they're indefensible. And we need to pay more attention to those, those lessons.

[Jon Favreau]

Which one of you, you or Chasten is the parent who buys the kids too many toys or gives them too many treats or, or lets them stay up too late.

[Pete Buttigieg]

I'm gonna, I'm gonna stand with Chastain and blame the grandparents for the the toys and the treats.

[Jon Favreau]

That's always understandable. It's always a safe choice.

[Pete Buttigieg]

They definitely have a little more free rein there. We're trying to hold the line on the toys, the stuffies that are proliferating in the bedroom, but Chasten will say I'm more the softy. I'd like to think I hold the line pretty well, but. But all that goes out the window when the grandparents come into play.

[Jon Favreau]

Yeah, that is certainly true in our house as well. Pete Buttigieg, thanks as always for joining Pod Save America. This was great. And come back again soon.

[Pete Buttigieg]

Thanks for having me. Good talking to you.

[Jon Favreau]

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[Jon Favreau]

Ask your dermatologist about Cosentyx. All right, John Lovett.

[Jon Lovett]

Hi, John.

[Jon Favreau]

Hi. Thanks for joining.

[Jon Lovett]

Thanks for being. Thank you. I don't know.

[Jon Favreau]

Thanks for having you.

[Jon Lovett]

Yeah, thank you.

[Jon Favreau]

Yeah. It was you or Dan.

[Pete Buttigieg]

Yeah.

[Jon Lovett]

Thanks for not having Dan.

[Jon Favreau]

All right. We got it. So that was Pete. You don't even know what Pete said yet. You haven't heard it yet.

[Jon Lovett]

Nope. I've heard tell. I've heard tell.

[Jon Favreau]

Yeah. I've been trying to summarize, but we do have some. We thought we'd take some listener questions from the discord.

[Jon Lovett]

Great.

[Jon Favreau]

So that you and I can answer a few. We have a set of questions to start, all on the redistricting fight. FPO World asks, would y' all like to see the gerrymandering redistricting fight expand to all blue states? Heffalumpish asks if every state that can do it actually goes ahead and gerrymanders the shit out of their maps. Red or blue, who will come out ahead? There are a lot more totally red statehouses than blue. If we do get in this race to the bottom, do the Democrats still lose? And then Pancake Paladin, who had quite a few questions.

[Jon Lovett]

Yeah, a lot of questions from the.

[Jon Favreau]

Pancake and seems very.

[Jon Lovett]

Not a short stack, if you will.

[Jon Favreau]

Very agitated.

[Pete Buttigieg]

Yeah.

[Jon Favreau]

But thank you for the questions. She says. Don't mean to be a downer, but is this an inflection point? Does the Democratic Party have a future if it can't agree? This could be existential, meaning the redistricting fight cards on the table. I think when we're in an ad hoc gerrymandering race to the bottom outside of usual census calibrations, leadership should be breaking glass in case of emergency. Where do you want to begin?

[Jon Lovett]

So let's. I want to start with the middle question, which is what would happen if all the Democrats did this everywhere. All the Republicans did this anywhere. Who comes out ahead? Republicans come out ahead.

[Jon Favreau]

Yeah.

[Jon Lovett]

That's for two reasons. One, they just control more legislatures and they have more governorships. We are behind. Even if we did this in every blue state, they could do this in more places. They're already planning to do it in a lot of states. There are plans now in Missouri, Ohio, other states. There's another reason, and it has actually nothing to do with who's in power or not. It's a little bit easier for Republicans to gerrymander than Democrats because Democrats are more concentrated. They're just more parts of the country have districts that are very Republican, but not as Democrat as the Democratic districts are Democratic. The centers of cities and places like that were just really concentrated. So just makes the job of Democrats to do the kind of gerrymandering Republicans do a little bit more difficult, if not impossible in certain places. So the question is just, are we gonna fight as hard as we can to have as small a disadvantage as we can or not?

[Jon Favreau]

Yeah. I saw somewhere a couple people were doing different calculations on this that I think if everyone who could decided to gerrymander to the extreme, it would end up being like, net four to five seats for Republicans. And that's if, you know, Democrats and other states that haven't even been spoken about yet. And Republicans, too, did this. But you're right, it's like. It's just. It's going to end up. We would probably be down a few seats at the end of this.

[Jon Lovett]

Yeah. And now the good news. There is down a surmountable number of seats. Right. Like, they can gain four more seats. They already have a very slim majority. We can overcome it in two ways. One way is just by winning in more places. The other is because there is. I think sometimes in these fights, we lose sight of some of the, like, the kind of natural breaks that exist even if Republicans are the worst people on planet Earth. And one of the natural breaks is in order to gerrymander really hard, you have to take Republican votes away from Republican members of Congress. Like that is part of what happens. In order to make. To turn a bunch of Democratic districts into Republican districts, you have to put Republicans in those places. Where do they come from? The Republican districts that already exist. And so you'll start to see, it may not be public, it may not be as loud, but you will see kind of pressure that comes in closed doors with just Republicans that puts a little bit of a break on just how far they can go.

[Jon Favreau]

And I saw some other questions floating around in discord and about, you know, like why is Gavin Newsom and California only thinking about netting five to neutralize Texas? Why are not. Why not more the challenge becomes and Republicans face this challenge too which is drawing the actual maps so that you can have districts where somehow you get all Republican districts or all Democratic districts and zero of the other side. And that's just, especially with the bigger the state, that's really hard to do. It is, it is probably impossible to draw the maps in California so that you California which has, you know, 5 million Republicans that voted in the last election. It's hard to draw them all into one or no district. It's just like a hard thing to do.

[Jon Lovett]

It's hard. Like it involves computers doing their best to pump out insane looking shapes that are still continuous. Yeah.

[Jon Favreau]

But rest assured that people have thought about this.

[Jon Lovett]

Of course, of course. And but, but again this is the other side of it. You be take to in order to really do it, you're going to take some districts that are currently held by a Democrat and you're going to make them a little harder to keep in a year where the election doesn't go their way. That's by the way part of all of this which is if Republicans gerrymander too hard, they cannot accidentally talk themselves out of some seats. And just one other point about this too. Like it is true that what Republicans are doing are taking this very far. But like Republicans have done mid year redistricting in the past. North Carolina's done it, Texas has done it. There's been a fight like this before. I do think this is a more brazen version of it, but like we've fought back and won against these kinds of tactics too.

[Jon Favreau]

To pancake Paladin's question, does the Democratic Party have a future? If it can't agree, this could be existential. I just want to take that question for a few reasons. The Democratic Party of course has a future. It's basically the only vessel we have right now in this country to defeat rising authoritarianism. This is not a third party country and so you can hate the Democratic Party and we've got some problems with it, but the only solution is to change the Democratic Party for the better. I think it's a bit of a strawman because I don't know who's not worried about this in the Democratic Party. Like I said, I think the first time we talked about this there was like a, a few progressives in the California state Assembly who were like no, this is bad. We can't be like them. And we believe in independent redistricting, all that stuff. But I would say just about every 20, 28 candidate, most of the House, most of the Senate leadership, all seems like they are all in for this fight. And then lastly, on the existential thing, I don't think it's quite as existential as we might suspect because again, if we go the same route they do, which is what's gonna happen. It is a race to the bottom where we probably are down a couple seats. But I think the challenge is you go down this road and suddenly you just stop having competitive House elections, really. And that House general elections. And then what happens is the only game in town is the primaries for House seats. And primaries favor just more extreme candidates on both sides. And so I think you just get in. I think if all the, if the whole House map is suddenly gerrymandered and we're not having competitive House elections anymore, first of all, you're not going to get new politicians. You're not going to get new young leaders who are exciting. You're going to get the same people who are just stuck in their seats and it's not competitive. And that's just, that is just bad for politics. It's probably bad for us too, for Democrats, but it's just bad.

[Jon Lovett]

Yeah, yeah, it is. And it just. Another reason it's bad is redistricting. Fights are messy and divisive and time occupying. Like every legislature in the country that's debating a map is not, not figuring out how they're gonna fund the schools or the roads or solving any problem that anyone is dealing with anywhere. And what they're introducing is the possibilities that redistricting is gonna happen all the time. No, it's not illegal, but it just is another way in which they're striking at the forbearance that has helped our system work. And to take the pancakes question generously, you're right. Democratic states like Colorado and California have independent redistricting, while Republicans have become more brazen. We've paid a price for that. But Newsom creating a plan, moving it fast, potentially getting on the ballot this November. Hochul saying the right things. Very difficult in New York because it has to be a constitutional amendment. But, but she's saying the right things. Like a lot of these organizations that were in favor of independent redistricting suddenly deciding that at least while they may believe that in the long term, for now we have to fight like that tells you that people are moving the Democratic Party is a collection of people. They're all 10. They are tending to say the right thing.

[Jon Favreau]

Stephen R. Martin asks, should Stephen Colbert challenge Senator Lindsey Graham for the Senate seat? Sure. I. I think no, because South Carolina, I think, is too difficult.

[Jon Lovett]

Oh, yeah.

[Jon Favreau]

But I love. I want. I would like Stephen Colbert to maybe run for president. I don't think it's crazy. I don't think it's crazy. I mean, we are. We're always looking for, like, someone who's got name ID and everyone knows. And they're also sort of outside the world of politics, but also no politics, and is also one of the better humans in public life. Stephen Colbert is so. I don't know. He's running for something. South Carolina is just a tough state.

[Jon Lovett]

Yeah, South Carolina.

[Jon Favreau]

If it was North Carolina, I'd say go for it in a second.

[Jon Lovett]

I just would like to see that race. I think it would be fun to watch.

[Jon Favreau]

It would be very fun.

[Jon Lovett]

Yeah. Like, I'm excited to see what Colbert does next. He testified before Congress a bunch of years ago and he talked. I believe it might have been about immigration. I honestly, now I'm not remembering the topic, but what I remember from it is he had a very poignant moment about his faith and his values, and whenever he leaves behind that kind of artifice of the show and just talks about what drives him, he's a beautiful speaker and thinker. And so I am just excited to see what he does after this.

[Jon Favreau]

Me, too. Me too. Jacob. I had to really do some digging for this question because it just. It comes in through halfway through the sentence. It just says, obama's dig on ketchup being only for kids under the age of eight. And I was like, what the fuck is that? And I had no idea. And then you came in this morning and I saw it was from Michelle's podcast. And Obama went on Michelle's podcast and he made a crack about how at a certain age, you should not be having ketchup anymore.

[Jon Lovett]

I'll tell you what a sicko I am is. I hadn't seen the clip. That's just a view I knew Obama had from previous interviews where he's made less. Honestly, less extreme versions of this point. His. His politics against ketchup have radicalized, but he's talked about ketchup in the past in a very negative way.

[Jon Favreau]

Totally missing. Also, Jacob asks, was that an attempt at a sneak attack on the ketchuper in Chief Trump? No, I don't know. I'm fairly certain that it was not.

[Jon Lovett]

Hey, listen, Man, Jacob, that red string, there's a lot of places to put it these days. Places it belongs. Justice Department to the White House, White House to a cushy Club Fed prison in Texas, that pigeon down to Florida. All of it totally valid. I do not think Barack Obama is doing 3D chess on ketchup politics. I think he just has an opinion about the sauce.

[Jon Favreau]

Follow up from Jacob. What is the appropriate age to stop using ketchup? I disagree with our old boss on this one. I think ketchup is fine to use your whole life. If you like ketchup.

[Jon Lovett]

Yeah, there's nothing wrong with ketchup. I don't think you need to yuck other people's yum.

[Jon Favreau]

I'm not like a huge fan of ketchup. I'll dip a couple fries in it every now and then and I'll put it on a burger.

[Jon Lovett]

I actually don't like ketchup that much, to be honest. I don't have a problem with other people having having it. I sometimes think this is because ketchup is all the flavors. It's salty, it's sweet, it's sour, it's umami, and it's a little bitter, honestly. But I think the sweetness is why people, like, think it's a kid's thing because, like, mustard is such an adult set of flavors, you know? And ketchup is very sweet. And so it's a kind of way of making your hot dog a little bit like dessert. So I understand where he's coming from. I don't like it that much.

[Jon Favreau]

I always just paired it with mustard. Growing up, it was always mustard and ketchup and mustard on my burger, ketchup and mustard on my hot dog.

[Jon Lovett]

I'll tell you what I do that's. I think. I don't think other people do, which is when I go through McDonald's drive through for my secret burgers. What?

[Jon Favreau]

Your secret burgers?

[Jon Lovett]

Yeah, they're just between me, McDonald's and God. Nobody knows about those burgers. They're secret burgers. When I have a secret burger, I usually get either a double cheeseburger or a McDouble. No ketchup, no mustard. Dry. Just pickles and onions. Dry. Yeah, that's right, that's right, that's right. It lets the meat speak.

[Jon Favreau]

I don't know if the meat needs to speak.

[Jon Lovett]

The meat.

[Jon Favreau]

Does anyone need to hear the meat?

[Jon Lovett]

The meat is drowning in a cacophony of ketchup and mustard. It speaks softly, but it should be heard. I let the meat speak.

[Jon Favreau]

Yeah, I'm more likely to let the meat speak when it's like a burger that you cook on a grill at home. You know, McDonald's, I feel like it needs the accoutrements.

[Jon Lovett]

Okay. And that's what makes this country great.

[Jon Favreau]

It does. It does. Barack Obama can hate ketchup. We can love it. Or you cannot. The Cricket Store's big summer sale is here and everything's 20% off. So if you want a new friend of the pod T or the redesigned Call Congress merch, it's all on sale for a limited time. Merch is a great way to show you support the pod without having to buy a meme coin or a golden phone with our faces etched on it. And right now, it's all on sale. Shop 20% off [e-mail] store foreign is brought to you by CookUnity. CookUnity was made for adventurous eaters with countless global cuisines. From 160 plus award winning chefs. Explore an ever expanding menu of small batch meals, all tailored to your lifestyle, dietary needs and cravings. Get ready to eat meals delivered directly to your door by going to cookunity.com crookedfree or enter code crooked free before checkout for free. Premium meals for life. As some of you know, I'm a huge CookUnity fan. I get it every week. I have since long before they ever sponsored this podcast. In fact, just a couple hours ago, I put in my weekly order. Wow. For cookunity, I got the Adobo flat iron steak with rainbow fingerling potatoes. There's a coconut lime cod and grilled red peppers, beef tanga tacos, Southwest chicken bowl, Hawaiian style, shrimp fried rice, chicken and cheese empanadas. Guys, there's so many good stuff. It's like over 300 selections every week and they're always adding new stuff. It's great, it's delicious. It's easy to prepare. With 300 plus weekly menu options. Oh look, I already said it without even reading it. Cook Unity's customizable platform makes it simple to get connected with your cravings. You can filter by chef, protein cuisine or dietary need to find meals that satisfy your cravings and stick to your health goals. Cooking quality meals takes time that I don't have, but it doesn't have to be your time. No cleanup or meal planning. Meals are delivered fully cooked heat in as little as five minutes in the oven or microwave. Get what you're craving. Try the freshest, best tasting meal delivery made by your favorite celebrity chefs. Go to cookunity.com crookedfree or enter code Crooked Free before checkout for free Premium Meals for Life that's free Premium Meals for Life by using Code Crooked Free or going to cookunity.com crookedfree terms and conditions apply. Go to cookunity.com for details. Dealing with hidradenitis suppurativa HS is tough, but you're not alone. Before I started Cosentyx, I looked at the website and saw it had many.

[Jon Lovett]

Years of clinical research that made me feel confident.

[Jon Favreau]

Cosentyx Secukenua is prescribed for adults with.

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Moderate to severe hyperativa.

[Jon Favreau]

Don't use if allergic to Cosentyx.

[Jon Lovett]

Get checked for TB before starting. Increased risk of infections and lowered ability.

[Jon Favreau]

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[Jon Lovett]

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[Jon Favreau]

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[Jon Lovett]

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[Jon Favreau]

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[Jon Lovett]

And severe eczema like skin reactions may occur. Learn more at 1-844-COSENTIX or cosentix.com don't wait.

[Jon Favreau]

Ask your dermatologist about Cosentix. JAMS asks can the Democratic Party continue to push working class policies? Minimum wage increases, free school lunches, Defending Medicaid as its base becomes wealthier? And if not, which one wins out, the platform or the voters?

[Jon Lovett]

There's. There's an old joke about how when Bill Gates walks into a bar, the average income becomes billions. The problem isn't that the Democratic base got wealthier. The problem is that the Democratic base got smaller and left behind a bunch of wealthy people. It's not the people we have, it's the people we lost.

[Jon Favreau]

Trade. The trade has not been even right. And it's not just wealthier, it's really the line is college education. Now obviously people with a college degree tend to be wealthier. But that's not all. Not true in all cases by any means. But yeah, no. If we don't have a party, if the base of our party is college educated, we lose. We lose all the time. All different elections. Presidential, Senate, House. We're fucked. That's right. And so the idea that we can go on our merry way just losing non college educated voters, whether they, I mean first we lost a lot of white college, non college educated voters, then now Latinos, also some black men. So we are, we just can't lose non college voters. And so the platform has to win out here and we have to Figure out a way to bring back people who don't have a college degree and who aren't as wealthy 100%. There's just no option. It's. It's. There's no winning unless we don't want to win.

[Jon Lovett]

And I think some people don't actually. Or like it's secondary to some other concerns that they have, which I understand you're. That's again, and I'm not saying that's.

[Jon Favreau]

What JAMS was saying at all.

[Jon Lovett]

And jams, we're not saying this about you. This is not you. Jams.

[Jon Favreau]

Jams, probably. For all we know, JAMS wants the platform to win, not the voters.

[Jon Lovett]

Yeah.

[Jon Favreau]

In fact, maybe I would guess that.

[Jon Lovett]

That'S where I took James's point from.

[Jon Favreau]

Me too. Me too. Let's see. Supers kink. Super's kink. Super's kink asks, how can we convince Dems to actually go all out to fix the country? Like, I want Project 2025 on steroids, dem Edition and Heffalumpish coming in twice here. Is anyone working on Project 2029 for the Democrats? If so, who are they? Who's choosing them? How can ordinary Democrats have input? And if that's not happening, do you have a good location for a void I can scream into?

[Jon Lovett]

Oh, there's great voids all over the place to scream. You can find a great place to scream all over this country. It's a big. A lot of it's empty, honestly. So there are a lot of different people thinking about what a democratic project 2029 would look like. I feel like there's going to be versions that are like more in the Bernie wing. And then there's going to be the kind of antitrust wing. There's the abundance wing, there's the neolib shill wing. I mean, that's what a primary's for. It's a big, fractious debate that helps the party come together around a set of policy goals. Right?

[Jon Favreau]

Yeah. I sort of took that question to mean not just the policies, but I feel like what Project 2025 did well is there was a bunch of policies that they had wanted to implement for a While, and Project 2025 was focused on how do we actually get this stuff done. It's like all the norms, everything that's not bolted down, which is by law, and some stuff that is bolted up by law, we're going to take. Right. We're going to get ready. All the norms are gone. All the rules are gone. Anything that was tradition that people didn't do like, you know, the Justice Department used to put it at arm's length and it was independent. And now, you know, fuck it, we could do a lot more if the Justice Department just wasn't independent. I almost feel like it's that, like, that's what I've been thinking is what are the places where we can amass power and what places should we amass power and what places should we go back to? Sort of the independence of the FCC or the Justice Department, et cetera. I actually asked Pete this question because Pete was like, we have to, you know, figure out how to actually deliver for people. And I was like, well, do you think we should go back to, you know, independent Justice Department? He said, oh, yes, of course. But I do think that's going to be. I think all of those questions are pretty challenging for Democrats to answer ahead of 2028. And next time we take power, if that should happen.

[Jon Lovett]

Yeah, if we take it and then someone takes it back before we have a chance to use it. Like, Trump created like a unique opportunity for the right wing think tank types because what they realized is they had basically an empty vessel. Right. And they knew that if they, that all they'd have to do is do the work. Cuz Trump would never do the work. And if they did the work and they had the people, they could be put in place by Trump who really just want some headlines and has a few core issues that he'd be driving and that Stephen Miller would be driving, but otherwise they could kind of have the run of the place, which is what's happened. And Project 2025. Yeah, they, they won, I don't think, because of Project 2025. They won despite Project 2025 because they put together a set of extreme and deeply unpopular policies.

[Jon Favreau]

Yeah, no, that's a good, it's a good point. Because their problem is that too many people found out about Project 2025 and what they were lucky about is that not enough in time.

[Jon Lovett]

That's right.

[Jon Favreau]

Because it was extremely unpopular and.

[Jon Lovett]

Or didn't believe it. Right.

[Jon Favreau]

But most people didn't. Yeah, people either didn't believe it or didn't hear about it.

[Jon Lovett]

Right. Or Trump denied it. Right. Pretended it wasn't true. So the challenge for Democrats is whoever we nominate is gonna have a bunch of ideological commitments. Right. That not everybody's gonna agree with. Right. And there's gonna be debates about what we should pursue and what we shouldn't. What policies are. Right. But unpopular. What policies are popular but that don't Go far enough, there's like a whole range of big questions we're gonna have to answer. We're gonna do that in front of people, unlike what they did at first with Project 2025. So I don't know if we need to answer Project 2025 with Project 2029 exactly. But what I do think is what Trump should teach us is that Democrats for a long time were a little bit. We lack the imagination for just how quickly politics could change. And I do think, like, the spirit of that, what I take from the spirit of that question is, are we going to be willing to really push the bounds of Democratic politics or for what we're willing to propose to people? And I think we should. And I think we, like, need to be open to, like, big and different ideas. And that, to me, makes me actually excited about what a primary could look like.

[Jon Favreau]

And I think that the ideological spectrum is not the only place to have debates about these policies. I think sort of that's what happened in 2020. It was. Well, we lost in 2016, and Democrats were too incremental in their policies. And so now we need to be big and bold and ambitious, which ended up being, like, spend more money, larger government, whatever it may have been. And I think that we need to figure. We need to think creatively about power.

[Jon Lovett]

Yeah.

[Jon Favreau]

You know, and how to make sure that when we propose something, be it very progressive, center left, somewhere in the middle, we get it done. Because I think. I think there is a danger in over promising and telling people that we can do something that we cannot do, and then there is a danger in going too small. Right. But, like, we gotta figure out new ways to sort of use the power that we're given to actually improve people's lives in a way that they remember when they go to the ballot box.

[Jon Lovett]

Yeah. It's why this question, I think, is. It's hard for candidates to answer in the abstract right now, even for someone like Pete, because I think part of why it's like, well, obviously the Department of Justice should be independent, but, you know, how much control should we have over the fcc? What kind of executive orders are legal or not? It actually, like, the Republicans over decades developed a pretty clear theory, which is we can do whatever the fuck we want as long as Supreme Court says it's okay, all power flows from the president. Everything else is either up for debate or unconstitutional. And we have a limited time to act, and we have to push back this sort of liberal kind of bureaucracy that is sort of swallowing the economy and has so much power that it never really was given, et cetera, et cetera. Like, I don't know what Democrats think about power. I really don't like how we're meant to use it.

[Jon Favreau]

Yeah.

[Jon Lovett]

What rules we believe in. I don't really totally understand what our judicial philosophy is. Right. Like, I know we think that abortion should be legal. I know what the ends should be, but I have no idea what the, like, our version of originalism is. Right. Our version of, of unitary executive theory is like, I just, I don't know.

[Jon Favreau]

Yeah. Well, and to answer the question, I don't. There's a bunch of different people working on it, different, different parts. But there's no, like, one effort anywhere. And I believe ordinary Democrats will be able to have input as candidates announce for 2028, and there are debates and they lay out policy platforms, and that's probably going to be the place to have the input.

[Jon Lovett]

Yeah.

[Jon Favreau]

Last question comes from Will. Oh. According to the Project 2025 tracker, the administration has nearly implemented 50% of the plan in just over six months. And while their approval ratings are at all time lows, it just doesn't seem like anything is sticking to get people motivated to stay on top of holding the administration accountable. What's it going to take to get, and most importantly, keep people motivated, involved for the long haul? Pick this question. Because, you know, Dan and I talked about it on Friday's pod. I have been struggling with it, wondering about it. I don't know what you think. Like, it's a really tough question.

[Jon Lovett]

Yeah. And I also, by the way, like, I think sometimes this question really means, like, I'm really nervous and it. Things are so bad, and yet it doesn't feel like the polls, the way politics feels doesn't reflect how bad things actually are. Well, that's been true ever since Donald Trump came down the escalator. Right. Just. Is the nature of our politics right now because of the fractured nature of the media, because of the country's distaste for Democrats and the kind of tarnishing of the Democratic brand, which we're crawling back from? And I don't think anybody has a great answer. But that being said, like, what should we be doing right now to make sure we're in a position to win the midterms or maybe a better way to saying it? Is there anything we should be doing right now that we're not doing to put ourselves in a position to win the midterms? I don't know, but I think we're doing a lot I think we're making really good arguments. Donald Trump is losing in popularity. Mike Flood is getting the shit kicked out of him at a town hall. Republicans are struggling and divided over Epstein, of all things. They're on their heels. Donald Trump is going to the roof of the White House. He's talking about ballrooms, putting nuclear fucking reactors on the moon. Like, he's making fun of Sydney Sweeney or. No, he's loving Sidney Sweeney, but he's making fun of Taylor Swift. Like, he's trying everything. Reality's catching up with them a little bit. And the question is, how do we make the most of it?

[Jon Favreau]

Yeah, I think. And I said this Friday, but there has been some. Just incredible work being done by organizers and activists on the ground. And we've seen a lot of the no Kings marches, and we've seen a lot of this. The resistance is. It's back. It might not be getting as much coverage because the media is broken, but it's back. And I think we need to just grow the movement. Right? I think that there is, like, those of us who have been. Who've been in the salt mines, the content mines, since. Since Trump won. It's like, you know, it's all. It's a. It's one big group of. A lot of committed people. Like, next time you go to an organizing event or a rally, bring someone who has never been before. Yeah, you know, I did like a friend who's maybe talking about politics once in a while, maybe turned away. Cause they were like, ugh, I can't. Just can't look at the news anymore. It's Donald Trump being crazy every day. It's awful. You know, convince, like, one person to come with you to a rally or to a town hall or to an organizing event. You know, I think that's the. I think growing the movement ahead of the midterms and ultimately 2028 is probably gonna be the most important thing we can do.

[Jon Lovett]

Yeah, I think that's right.

[Jon Favreau]

All right, thank you all for your questions. Discord, folks, our subscribers, who we love.

[Jon Lovett]

Love every single one of you.

[Jon Favreau]

Also be a friend of the pod. Subscribe crooked.com friends. It's great. You get ad free episodes and, you know, all kinds of other good stuff.

[Jon Lovett]

Come join the community.

[Jon Favreau]

Come join the community. Also subscribe. If you're watching on YouTube, subscribe to our YouTube channel so Elijah can keep his job.

[Jon Lovett]

Just.

[Jon Favreau]

It's the Pod Save America YouTube channel. You just subscribe. We're trying to get a million by the end of August, or else Elijah that's out.

[Jon Lovett]

He's out.

[Jon Favreau]

So he's out. So do it for Elijah. And thanks again to Pete Buttigieg for joining Pod Save America. And we always love talking to you.

[Jon Lovett]

Can't believe you said that about Sydney Sweeney. That's crazy.

[Jon Favreau]

It's wild, actually.

[Jon Lovett]

Like a unique take.

[Jon Favreau]

A unique take.

[Jon Lovett]

Strange.

[Jon Favreau]

Didn't expect that coming from Strange. Yeah. And the Epstein theory he has.

[Jon Lovett]

Yes.

[Jon Favreau]

That's weird.

[Jon Lovett]

So weird. That's so weird. And what he showed you on his phone about it.

[Jon Favreau]

Yeah. That's held it up.

[Pete Buttigieg]

Weird stuff.

[Jon Favreau]

Wow. Come back, Pete, please. Bye, everyone. If you want to listen to Pod Save America ad free or get access to our subscriber discord and exclusive podcasts, consider joining our friends at the pod [e-mail] friends or subscribe on Apple Podcasts directly from the Pod Save America feed. Also, please consider leaving us a review to help boost this episode and everything we do here at Crooked. Pod Save America is a Crooked Media production. Our producers are David Toledo, Emma Illich Frank and Saul Rubin. Our associate producer is Farah Safari. Austin Fisher is our senior producer. Reed Churlin is our executive editor. Adrian Hill is our head of news and politics. The show is mixed and edited by Andrew Chadwick. Jordan Kantor is our sound engineer with audio support from Kyle Seglin and Charlotte Landis. Matt de Groat is our head of production. Naomi Sengle is our executive assistant. Thanks to our digital team, Elijah K. Cohn, Haley Jones, Ben Hefcoat, Mia Kelman, Carol Pelavie, David Toles and Ryan Young. Our production staff is proudly unionized with the Writers Guild of America East.

[Jon Lovett]

Hi there, it's Andy Richter, and I'm here to tell you about my podcast, the Three Questions with Andy Richter. Each week I invite friends, comedians, actors and musicians to discuss these three questions. Where do you come from, where are you going, and what have you learned? New episodes are out every Tuesday with.

[Jon Favreau]

Guests like Julie Bow and Ted Danson.

[Jon Lovett]

Tig Notaro, Will Arnett, Phoebe Bridgers and more. You can also tune in for my weekly Andy Richter Call in show episodes where me and a special guest invite callers to weigh in on topics like dating, disasters, bad teachers, and lots more.

[Jon Favreau]

Listen to the three Questions with Andy.

[Jon Lovett]

Richter wherever you get your podcasts.

[Pete Buttigieg]

Psoriatic arthritis symptoms can be unpredictable. I had joint pain and I couldn't move like I used to. I needed relief. I got Cosentyx.

[Jon Favreau]

It helped me move better. Cosentyx Secukinumab is prescribed FOR P people.

[Jon Lovett]

2 years of age and older with active psoriatic arthritis.

[Jon Favreau]

Don't use if you're allergic to Cosentyx before starting, get checked for tuberculosis.

[Jon Lovett]

An increased risk of infections and lowered.

[Jon Favreau]

Ability to fight them may occur like tuberculosis or other serious bacterial, fungal or viral infections. Some were fatal. Tell your doctor if you have an.

[Jon Lovett]

Infection or symptoms like fevers, sweats, chills, muscle aches or cough had a vaccine or planned to. Or if inflammatory bowel disease symptoms develop.

[Jon Favreau]

Or worsen, serious allergic reactions and severe eczema like skin reactions may occur. Learn more at 1-844-cosentyx or cosentyx.com.

[Pete Buttigieg]

Ask your rheumatologist about Cosentyx.