Protests Rain on Trump's Parade

Summary

Pod Save America – Episode: "Protests Rain on Trump's Parade" (Released June 17, 2025)

Hosted by Jon Favreau, Jon Lovett, Dan Pfeiffer, and Tommy Vietor from Crooked Media.

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Overview

In this episode of Pod Save America, the hosts delve into the tumultuous political landscape of mid-2025. Key discussions revolve around the recent political assassinations in Minnesota, the massive No Kings protests that overshadowed former President Donald Trump’s military parade, Trump's controversial immigration policies targeting sanctuary cities, and the broader implications of political violence in the United States. The episode culminates with an interview featuring Maryland Governor Wes Moore, who shares insights on leadership amidst chaos and the future of the Democratic Party.

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International Tensions: Israel, Iran, and Trump's Stance

The episode opens with an analysis of Israel's preemptive strikes against Iran's nuclear infrastructure and the subsequent retaliation. The hosts discuss the potential for increased U.S. military involvement, with Trump hinting at possible escalation.

• Jon Favreau summarizes the situation:
  “Israel's surprise attack has not only targeted Iran's nuclear infrastructure, but the regime itself. Missile and drone attacks have left more than 200 Iranians dead, including at least nine nuclear scientists...” ([02:01])

• Tommy Vietor explains the internal MAGA debate:
  “Neocons like John Bolton and Fox News personalities are pushing for direct U.S. involvement, while isolationist MAGA factions argue against another Middle Eastern war.” ([04:26])

• Donald Trump's response at the G7 in Canada:
  “Iran should talk and they should talk immediately, before it's too late.” ([03:52])

The hosts address the conflicting narratives within the MAGA movement and Trump's fluctuating policies, highlighting the complexities of U.S. foreign interventions.

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Domestic Crisis: Political Assassinations in Minnesota

A significant portion of the episode focuses on the tragic assassination of Minnesota State Representative Melissa Hortman and her husband by Vance Bolter. The discussion covers the immediate aftermath, the killer's list targeting Democrats, and the alarming spread of conspiracy theories by right-wing figures.

• Jon Favreau recounts the event:
  “The killer also had a notebook listing more than 45 potential Democratic targets, including Governor Tim Walz and Senator Tina Smith.” ([15:27])

• Jon Lovett critiques the rapid spread of false narratives:
  “Politicians like Mike Lee and Bernie Moreno prematurely label the attacker as a left-wing extremist, disregarding clear evidence.” ([18:09])

• Tommy Vietor emphasizes the dangers of misinformation:
  “When politically motivated lies spread during such tragedies, they not only distort reality but also endanger lives.” ([21:47])

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Mass Protests vs. Trump's Military Parade

The No Kings protests, one of the largest in American history with an estimated 5 million attendees, are juxtaposed against Trump's subdued military parade in Washington, D.C.

• Governor Wes Moore discusses the impact of the protests:
  “The energy and push from these protests are not about a single day but about sustaining a larger movement.” ([62:06])

• Jon Lovett shares his firsthand experience:
  “Being downtown, observing the disciplined and peaceful nature of the protest, made it clear how powerful collective action can be.” ([29:00])

• Jon Favreau critiques the parade:
  “Trump's parade felt more like a Veterans Day gathering, lacking the authoritarian spectacle he might have intended.” ([35:00])

The hosts commend the organization and discipline of the protests, contrasting them with the ineffective and poorly received military parade intended to showcase strength.

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Trump's Immigration Policies: Targeting Sanctuary Cities

Trump's immigration crackdown, initially softened after acknowledging the economic importance of farm and hospitality workers, took a sharp turn with directives to focus on deporting undocumented immigrants in blue states.

• Tommy Vietor analyzes the policy shift:
  “Trump’s move to target sanctuary cities is more about political posturing than effective immigration enforcement.” ([41:24])

• Jon Lovett highlights the economic contradiction:
  “Sanctuary cities like Los Angeles and New York continue to grow their undocumented populations despite aggressive deportation efforts.” ([47:57])

• Jon Favreau mocks the inconsistency:
  “Trump wants mass deportations without economic fallout, aiming for symbolic victories over practical solutions.” ([42:41])

The discussion underscores the futility and political maneuvering behind Trump's immigration policies, emphasizing their disconnect from economic realities.

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Political Violence and the Role of Social Media

The hosts express deep concern over the rise in political violence and the role of social media in exacerbating divisions.

• Jon Lovett laments the immediate politicization:
  “Even in the midst of unfolding tragedies, political projects override factual accuracy, making the environment more dangerous.” ([16:46])

• Tommy Vietor points out the erosion of political decency:
  “After incidents like Trump being shot, the lack of empathetic responses from leaders highlights a deep-seated issue in political discourse.” ([20:54])

• Jon Favreau criticizes the spread of baseless conspiracies:
  “Politicians quickly blame mental illness or political ideologies without evidence, escalating tensions.” ([21:12])

The conversation highlights the urgent need for responsible leadership and the mitigation of harmful rhetoric on social platforms.

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Interview with Maryland Governor Wes Moore

Governor Wes Moore offers a poignant perspective on the current political climate, focusing on leadership, systemic racism, and the future of the Democratic Party.

Leadership Amidst Chaos

• Jon Favreau introduces Governor Moore:
  “Having served in the military yourself, how do you think it feels in the armed services right now?” ([56:07])

• Wes Moore responds:
  “The current use of federal troops in local law enforcement undermines the commitment and safety of our service members.” ([59:27])

Addressing Political Violence

• Jon Favreau inquires about political assassinations:
  “How do we even begin to foster civil discourse when influential Republicans spread false conspiracies?” ([65:25])

• Wes Moore emphasizes the need for bipartisan condemnation:
  “Legislation in Maryland is focusing on protecting public servants and combating political violence through clear, collective action.” ([67:25])

Immigration Enforcement in Maryland

• Jon Favreau asks about handling potential ICE raids:
  “How are you planning to handle a potential expansion of immigration raids in a city like Baltimore?” ([69:00])

• Wes Moore advocates for comprehensive immigration reform:
  “The President could fix the immigration problem with comprehensive legislation, but instead chooses to weaponize it.” ([69:31])

Reparations and Systemic Racism

• Jon Favreau addresses Moore's veto on a reparations commission:
  “Do you believe reparations are justified?” ([77:37])

• Wes Moore explains his focus on systemic change:
  “Reparations should address systemic racism, not just individual acts. Maryland is actively investing in black communities through education, homeownership, and business support.” ([80:23])

Future Political Aspirations

• Jon Favreau probes about potential presidential ambitions:
  “With your extensive work in Maryland, are you considering a presidential run?” ([82:46])

• Wes Moore firmly states:
  “I am not running for president. My focus remains on effectively leading Maryland and demonstrating an alternative to national policies.” ([83:07])

Democratic Party's Challenges

• Jon Favreau inquires about the Democratic Party:
  “How do you think the national Democratic Party is meeting this moment?” ([85:51])

• Wes Moore responds with humility and focus:
  “Authenticity and delivering genuine results are crucial. The party should prioritize what truly benefits the people rather than conforming to pre-set agendas.” ([86:17])

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Conclusion

The episode of Pod Save America offers a comprehensive and critical examination of the current political turmoil in the United States. From international conflicts to domestic tragedies and widespread protests, the hosts and Governor Wes Moore provide insightful analysis and call for responsible leadership and systemic reforms. The episode underscores the fragility of civil discourse and the urgent need for unity and authentic political action.

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Notable Quotes:

• “There is nobody who is questioning my commitment to this work or my commitment to the work of repair.” – Governor Wes Moore ([77:37])

• “Racism is a system. Racism is a system that allows an 8 to 1 racial wealth gap in the state of Maryland.” – Governor Wes Moore ([80:28])

• “You just gotta condemn it when it happens. And politicians and leaders in both parties need to do that.” – Jon Favreau ([26:57])

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This detailed summary encapsulates the key discussions, insights, and conclusions from the episode, providing a comprehensive overview for those who haven’t listened.

Transcript

[Jon Favreau]

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[Jon Favreau]

Welcome to Pod Save America. I'm Jon Favreau.

[Jon Lovett]

I'm Jon Lovett.

[Tommy Vietor]

And Tommy Detour.

[Jon Favreau]

On today's show, we'll talk about the deranged right wing reaction to the political assassinations in Minnesota. The gigantic no Kings protests and Trump's not so gigantic military parade. The President directing ICE to focus their raids on blue cities. And the latest grift from the First Family, a shitty gold phone that's probably made in China. Then later you'll hear my interview with Maryland Governor Wes Moore about his reaction to the latest news. The Democratic Party's future and his own. But let's start with Israel's preemptive war against Iran, a war that Bibi Netanyahu very much wants America to join. And Trump says, quote, it's possible that we get more involved. Israel's surprise attack has not only targeted Iran's nuclear infrastructure, but the regime itself. Missile and drone attacks have so far left more than 200 Iranians dead, including at least nine nuclear scientists, the chief of staff of Iran's military, and the head of the Islamic Revolutionary Guard Corps. Iranian retaliatory strikes have so far killed more than 20 Israelis. The US military has participated in trying to shoot down Iranian missiles. And we're moving a second carrier group to the area, but that's all we know so far about our involvement. It's also been reported that Trump refused to give Israel permission to assassinate Iran's supreme leader over the weekend. Nuclear talks between Iran and the US Were called off on Sunday. Can't imagine why. But Iran is now reportedly signaling through intermediaries that it wants to ramp down the conflict and resume negotiations with the U.S. if the U.S. will agree to stay out of the conflict. And that's the major fault line. Here you have some crusty Newt Gingrich, Bush era neocon types saying we need to push for regime change, while the isolationist MAGA crowd says we should stay the hell away from yet another war in the Middle East. Trump took a question about this at the G7 in Canada on Monday. Here's what he said. What have you heard? What have you heard from the Iranians?

[Donald Trump]

They'd like to talk, but they should have done that. I had 60 days and they had 60 days. And on the 61st day I said, we don't have a deal. They have to make a deal. And it's painful for both parties, but I'd say Iran is not winning this war and they should talk and they should talk immediately, before it's too late.

[Jon Favreau]

A new war on Trump's watch. I thought we were supposed to have no more wars.

[Tommy Vietor]

Well, yeah, they never would have happened if he was president. When it comes to October 7th or the Russian invasion of Ukraine.

[Jon Favreau]

Yeah. And now, I guess, Iran and Israel. Tommy, can you walk us through the intra MAGA debate on this?

[Tommy Vietor]

So you got it right, the crusty neocons. John Bolton, Trump's former National Security Advisor, is one of them. Fox News guys like Mark Levin, a radio host, they want the US to get directly involved in offensive military operations. I say offensive military options because we're helping with defense or shooting down missiles. And the reason that's important, though, is because most of the most important Iranian nuclear infrastructure is buried deep underground or to the side of A mountain. And the conventional wisdom is that to take out that infrastructure like at Fordo, you need a weapon called the MOP, the massive ordinance penetrator. This like 30,000 pound bomb that only US planes can carry because it's so big with the B2 stealth bombers, the only thing we can that can drop it. Like the Israeli Air Force's mostly fighter jets. So that's why those neocons want the US to get involved. The folks they're fighting against are like Tucker Carlson, Steve Bannon, Marjorie Taylor Greene, who I think on the merits, friends, I mean on the merits and on the politics, like I'm Team Tucker, Steve MTG here, fellas, like, so on the merits, I think they have correctly identified when they did so before this week, that this wasn't really just about weapons of mass destruction. This was a regime change war, which has been confirmed by all these reports that Trump is vetoing plans to kill the Iranian supreme leader. So check. Yeah, for Tucker there and then the politics, I just think that like Tucker and Bannon and MTG are way more in tune with the MAGA base than like the gang at National Review. And no one wants another war in the Middle east and no one is going to believe another intelligence based, trust me. Were the experts pitch about why we need to go decapitate the leaders of another Middle Eastern country?

[Jon Lovett]

Yeah, There was reports today that Trump has been sending signals to get to the Iranians that, hey, as long as you do not harm US service members, we are not going to get more involved as a means of kind of getting that to Iran to keep them from bombing US Bases or to go after US Ships. It seems like Trump gets the politics of not wanting to be dragged into this. But it's also, you know, first of all, it's not clear that he's. It's not clear what they're, what they're posturing versus what they're actually planning to do versus what he's saying in hindsight to justify what Israel did after the discussions last week. It's just like very hard to understand what's really going on.

[Jon Favreau]

I feel like we have, you know, this started saying, okay, the Iranians were so, so close to getting a nuclear weapon. It could have been any day. So really this is a preemptive strike to protect Israel from them getting a nuclear weapons. Then it was like, well, maybe they're, they're like a couple months away, but they were about to get nuclear weapons, so whatever. And now Netanyahu said in an interview with John Carl on Monday that killing the Supreme Leader would, quote, end the conflict, not escalate it. Is regime change now an acceptable justification for preemptive war? Cause I thought we had this international community, international law at the United nations, and I wasn't aware that if you think a regime may get nuclear weapons at some point, you can actually eliminate the entire regime.

[Tommy Vietor]

You just go bomb them. I will say also, the timeline for how quickly Iran could get a nuclear weapon has been kind of jumping around. And when it comes out of his mouth, I mean, the, the Trump administration's timeline, as articulated by Tulsi Gabbard, was that it would take a year for Iran to get a nuclear weapon. There's a bunch of different phases of this. There's the enrichment phase, where you have to enrich enough uranium to get it to weapons grade, and then you weaponize it and then you need a delivery mechanism. So it's a little bit technical and wonky, but I don't think this was like a this weekend problem. You know what I mean?

[Jon Lovett]

Yeah, it's, it's, yes. The, the, like how close they are to it versus what is the actual rationale for doing this? When Netanyahu says often their goal is to talk while continuing to develop their program no matter what. So is this because they were imminently on the brake of getting a nuclear weapon, or is it because they saw an opportunity to degrade Iran's capability and took it and are using ad hoc justifications after the fact?

[Tommy Vietor]

Yeah, but to your point, I mean, like, the idea that killing the Supreme Leader changes everything or, like, fixes the problem is crazy. There's not some pro Western, pro Israel opposition group sitting in Iran waiting to march towards Tehran and announce their commitment to democracy and pluralism. Like, that's just not what's going to happen here. You kill the Supreme Leader, you guess what happens. They replace the Supreme Leader. And that replacement decision is made by a bunch of hardline clerics and the IRGC and the political elites. And you get someone who is basically the same. Or maybe the IRGC stages a coup and they take power. And I think recent history suggests that the guys with the guns end up in charge. And so that's why Tucker was saying on the show, or Tucker wrote this like, kind of op ed length screed on Twitter where he said, so why is Mark Levin once again hyperventilating about weapons of mass destruction? To distract you from the real goal, which is regime change. Young Americans heading back to the Middle east to topple yet another government. He also said that a war with Iran would amount to a profound betrayal of Trump's supporters. It would end his presidency. I really think, like, Tucker's making some good points here.

[Jon Favreau]

I noticed someone retweeting a video of Bibi Netanyahu in 2002 telling America, quote, if you take out Saddam, I guarantee you that it will have enormous positive reverberations on the region. Do we think that a new regime in Iran will have enormous positive reverberations on the region?

[Tommy Vietor]

Worked great in Iraq, worked great in Libya. What could possibly go wrong? Yeah, it's really worth looking up Netanyahu's testimony before Congress where he was advocating for the invasion of Iraq.

[Jon Favreau]

Oh, yeah, that's what that was.

[Tommy Vietor]

Would not have been more wrong.

[Jon Lovett]

What's also just sort of confusing is, okay, the rationale is to. Is based around degrading the nuclear capability. Then why are you going after state television? Now you can make an argument, I'm sure they would, that that's a, you know, a, a mouthpiece for a dictatorial, murderous terrorist regime, but it's not a means to degrade their nuclear capability. So what is. Is this going to. Because the, on the other side of it, it's, oh, this stops the second they stop having a nuclear program. But that has nothing to do with having a nuclear program.

[Jon Favreau]

I mean, is there an example in the Middle east in recent history of a nation where, starting from this, of a nation where there was an oppressive regime like there is in Iran, and the regime fell, it was either ousted or fell on its own, like, you know, Assad, and it was replaced by some stable government?

[Tommy Vietor]

I mean, the only example right now could possibly be Syria with the guys who just took over, who are former isis, al Qaeda guys. But, you know, time will tell. A little too early to time will tell. But it's really been fascinating, not only watching the intra maga debate, but also kind of like the attempts by the White House to spin it both ways, you know what I mean? Like, it was Trump sincerely trying to have Steve Witkoff do these talks with the Iranians and cut a nuclear deal, or was this whole thing subterfuge the whole time and it was all in bad faith? Either way, if you're Iran, like, what is going to bring you to the table now that Donald Trump was too weak to control Netanyahu and prevent him from bombing you, or that he was lying to you all along and the talks were a ruse to somehow facilitate this Israeli bombing campaign?

[Jon Lovett]

Yeah. And then on Trump's domestic politics, right, he wants to be on the side of the Tom Cottons of the world who are all cheering Israel on. He wants to be seen as the ally Israel needs to those kind of pro war, pro Israel hawks, while at the same time signaling that he doesn't want to be more involved, that he's not interested in the US becoming kind of an offensive participant in this for the kind of more dovish, isolationist parts of his party.

[Jon Favreau]

Trump wants to be for what's happening, whatever's winning, whatever. You know, he's always like, this thing goes south, we're going to hear from him that he tried to stop this and he told Bibi that this was a horrible idea and why is Netanyahu. He'll turn on Bibi so fast if this goes south and if it goes well, then it's, you know, this, he'll, he'll probably admit that it was that they lied all along, that they didn't really want a deal, that this was a whole thing to like get, you know, he's just, he's just gonna be for whatever's popular. That's like, that's his whole foreign policy.

[Tommy Vietor]

Yeah, I mean, Trump basically attacked Netanyahu after October 7th and like, was just talking shit about them in the immediate wake of this horrific existential attack on Israel. He was just like, ah, never would have happened. He blamed Netanyahu for failing to prevent it. All things that are true. But to your point, like, he will turn on him in a second if his operation goes south.

[Jon Favreau]

And remember, his problem with Gaza was not the, the, the fact that so many civilians were dying. It's that like, it's too public. They gotta just, they gotta finish it and you gotta keep it, keep it behind, keep it behind closed doors. I don't want to see so much of it. Right.

[Tommy Vietor]

You don't care about the people.

[Jon Favreau]

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[Jon Lovett]

Hey, I'm journalist Sam Sanders.

[Saeed Jones]

I'm Poet Saeed Jones.

[Zach Stafford]

And I'm producer Zach Stafford and we are the hosts of a podcast called Vibe Check.

[Wes Moore]

On Vibe Check, we talk about everything.

[Jon Lovett]

News, culture and entertainment.

[Wes Moore]

We and how it all feels.

[Zach Stafford]

That's right, we talk about any and everything on our show, from real life issues like grief to music and movie critiques. And that barely scratches the surface.

[Saeed Jones]

Yes indeed, and it doesn't stop there. We have got a lot to say, so join our group, chat, come to life, follow and listen to Vibe Check wherever you get your podcasts.

[Jon Favreau]

All right, big story in this country over the weekend was the assassination of Minnesota State Representative Melissa Hortman, a former speaker of the Minnesota House, along with her husband, by a man named Vance Bolter, who arrived at their front door in the middle of the night dressed as a police officer. Bolter had just done the same thing at the nearby home of State Senator John Hoffman and his wife, both of whom miraculously survived the shooting. The killer also had a notebook in his card listing more than 45 other potential targets, all of whom were Democrats, including Governor Tim Walz and Senator Tina Smith. There were also Democratic politicians in other states, other members of Congress, other governors, abortion providers. There were also papers in his car that suggest he may have been planning to target one of the no Kings protests on Saturday. Police finally apprehended Bolter on Sunday, but not before a 24 hour period where Republican senators and Trump influencers tried to spread the completely fabricated story that the killer was a left wing extremist who targeted Democrats for voting against the party on immigration. Mike Chernovich and others even suggested that Tim Waltz might have, quote, ordered the hit. Tim Walls ordered the hit himself. Sick stuff. What did you guys make of the reaction to this tragedy and the tragedy itself?

[Jon Lovett]

So there's an unrelated story about Elon Musk and Doge and about how they came to start saying that 40% of calls to Social Security were scammers. Which is made up. Which is made up. But it was useful. And so there's this consternation inside of the Social Security Administration. The staff want to put out a statement saying it's not true. Katie Miller, who now works for Elon Musk, but was then at the White House, picks up the phone, calls Social Security and says the number is 40%. Don't contradict Elon. Don't contradict the President. They cannot. If there is information that does not comport with their perfect, comfortable expectations, worldview, that doesn't help their political project, it is dismissed. That is true for every kind of policy question. That is true for every political debate. And it is even true in the middle of an unfolding assassination plot that is taking place in real time before this guy is even caught. Right? You know, somebody I went to college with, they were on the list and they get woken up in the middle of the night saying, you gotta get outta your house. You gotta get out. It's not safe. Right? Like, these are real. This is unfolding. It is really happening. It is a real event affecting real people. But because this exists online and it is immediately a political project, they go right to what is useful, what helps me in this moment, right? Even if it is a lie, even if it is disgusting, even if genuine lives are at risk in the moment when they're doing it.

[Jon Favreau]

Yeah. I watched it unfold on Twitter and at first I was like, you know what? Mike Chernovich, Pizzagate guy, worst of the worst, Alex Jones, I was like, do we really need to make a big deal of these crazies doing what they always do, which is spread lies and garbage and filth. Then you see Mike Lee, senator from Utah, who is fucking crazy, but this is maybe some of the worst shit that he's pushed around. He still has a pin tweet up on his Twitter feed saying that like, oh, nightmare on Wall street. And a picture of the shooter. And also, like, this is Marxism, is a mental illness. And this was Marxism. This is what happens when Marxists don't get their way. There were three different tweets from him. Bernie Moreno, senator from Ohio, also said that it was left wing extremists that caused this. Elon Musk. Elon Musk said it as well, that it's left wing extremism. I mean, there's this whole thing that happens now when there's political violence in this country where everyone rush. And it's very sad, we all rush to see, like, okay, Whose side was the person on? Is it a left wing person? Is it a right wing person? And then what happens is if it's not your side, then it's mental illness. Right? The person. Oh, the person was just mentally, mentally ill. And if it's the other side, then it's, oh. See? And like, that's sad and that's, like, awful that we got to that point. But for everyone, like, tweeting that shit, Moreno, Mike Lee, all the rest of them, what you are doing is just making life more dangerous for elected officials and people in politics. By tweeting that, you're just doing it, you're just making stuff more dangerous. And, like, there is no reason to do it. There's no reason to start lying. There's no reason to jump to conclusions before the police conduct an investigation. There's just no reason to do that.

[Tommy Vietor]

Yeah, my general expectations for political decency are rock bottom. But remember after Trump was shot in Butler, there's a lot of these reports about how he's more spiritual now. It changed him in some way. Right? I mean, obviously that was bullshit at the time, but you would. Look, getting shot, you would think would trigger in him like, a modicum of empathy when he hears about an incident like this. And he would just maybe lob in a call to Tim Walsh and. Or the families of the victims and just say something decent. But instead he was asked if he was gonna call Tim Wallace, and he was like, nope, he's a terrible governor, incompetent person. He goes, maybe I'll call him. You know, it's like nothing has changed in this man. And the conspiracy theory stuff from Mike Lee and the worst people on Twitter, it just. It like, makes you completely hopeless about the information environment on social media in the wake of any tragedy, any real problem, like any crisis. Yeah, we're just cooked.

[Jon Favreau]

It also used to be that when they throw conspiracies, they were. We were pretty sure that they were wrong. They were wrong. Right. But there was, like, you know, maybe a 2% chance that someone could possibly believe the conspiracy was right. This is so dumb. The shit that they were putting out there.

[Tommy Vietor]

It doesn't make sense.

[Jon Favreau]

Oh, they, Tim Walls ordered an assassination because this person voted against Tim Walls on, you know, making sure that undocumented immigrants do not get Medicaid. Right. That was. That's the theory. And then the list is out. And it's like, oh, yeah, Keith Ellison, the Attorney General, and also Tim Walls and a US Senator and a bunch of other Democratic politicians in other states. Were also on the list. Like, had nothing to do with that vote. So that doesn't match up at all. See, but none of this stuff changes the conspiracy. They just, they just, to your point about the Katie Miller thing, they just go forward.

[Jon Lovett]

Well, that.

[Jon Favreau]

The thing is all the facts are showing, like, definitively, definitively that they're wrong and they just keep going.

[Jon Lovett]

Well, so Mike Lee posts something more sensible on his official account, but this post stays up. I think he pinned it for a while, even after it was like, he doesn't delete it, he doesn't apologize, doesn't take it back. Amy Klobuchar, who is friends with Melissa Hortman, told MSNBC that she was going to confront Mike Lee directly about it. And I hope she does, because, like, she should. You know, it's all fun and games on the Internet.

[Jon Favreau]

People should make floor speeches. They should go down to the Senate floor and yell at Mike Lee.

[Jon Lovett]

I think they already. I think they already have started doing that.

[Jon Favreau]

Great.

[Jon Lovett]

Tina Smith apparently confronted Mike Lee.

[Jon Favreau]

Good.

[Jon Lovett]

And was asked about her talk with him. And she said, I think that honestly, he seemed a little surprised to be confronted.

[Jon Favreau]

Awesome.

[Jon Lovett]

Great.

[Jon Favreau]

Good for you, Tina Smith. I love that these people have to defend their bullshit, like, live and in person on tele. Like, you hide behind your Twitter account and you send out your bullshit tweets and then you just, like, slink away as everyone starts believing it. Like, no, you need to defend this in front of an audience.

[Tommy Vietor]

It's all, yeah, it's just the Trump assassination attempt, the arson attack on Josh Shapiro, the shooting at the D.C. jewish Museum, the firebombing of people in Colorado, January 6, Gabby Gifford, Steve Scalise, like, there's just a lot of this and there is so little to protect politicians. I mean, like, president gets Secret Service. But like Mitt Romney, remember that exit interview he did? He talked about one of the reasons he was quitting politics was he was worried about attacks from. I mean, I think he specifically named, like, Trump super fans on him or his family. And he talked about the massive cost of security. And, like, he's a rich guy, he can afford it. But like, a state representative in Minnesota, they've got no resources. There's no way to protect yourself. You're not doing this job. Like, you don't. You're not gonna be able to protect yourself. And also, what upside is there for people to get into politics if a Minnesota state rep is getting targeted?

[Jon Favreau]

That's what really worries me. I mean, the Times did a story on just, you know, Elected officials all across the country being very scared about this, based on this episode of political violence and all the other ones that you just mentioned. And, you know, one Ohio state senator posted on Facebook, honestly, I'm struggling with this news. I'm worried for my family. I worry I'm putting them in harm's way by being in office. It's a terrible feeling. Like, that's just. That is.

[Jon Lovett]

Yeah, it's awful. The part of this, too, is so in. In the sort of whatever the uncovered list that this person had. There's also a bunch of people finder websites for finding people's home addresses. And for a long time, there was just an assumption that the homes of the addresses of public officials would, one way or another be public, whether it's on a filing document or their voter registration or simply just through the fact that so much of this information is already public. But, like, that isn't. Like, we do not have to accept that. Like, yeah, it's hard to put the toothpaste back in the tube, but we should have privacy laws to protect addresses for people. That's a small step that is hard to make work, but it could at least help over the long run to kind of make it possible to get this information off of the Internet. We need a national privacy law. That feels like a hard thing to do, but, like, we have to make it harder for this kind of home, like, for where people live needs to be harder to get at. And that's just like making people now part of the problem there, right, Is like, there's some amount of public accountability for where people live, right? They have to live in the district. It matters if, you know, when what's his name, when Dr. Oz was campaigning and it was like, what's his actual address? Is it this big home? Is it that big home? Like, it's a part of politics, but, like, there's just, like, compromises that need to happen there. The other part of this, too, is, you know, we, as you were saying this, John, that, like, we, you know, you kind of. In this bleak moment, it's a cycle, all right? What were the motivations? Were they good? Were they. Were they ones we. Were they on our side or their side? Right? And it's like, we don't step back and look at the kind of underlying conditions that would lead somebody regardless of their ideology. The ideology is just a. It's just an ultimately a rationale for whatever kind of act of. Kind of political violence, which is rooted in whatever feeling of powerlessness, a desire to kind of get revenge, whatever it may be. And like social media is a part of that. Right. Like we see growing support polling wise for political violence, polling wise for just the justification for assassinations, the justifications for the killing of the CEO of United Healthcare. I was out there over the weekend, a lot of people with very ironic Luigi signs. Right. And like the, that all contributes to a sense that we live in a violent society where violence is part of politics, where the other side may use it, so you should use it before they do. And in sort of a broad way. Right. It leads people to feel both powerless and radicalized, but also in acute ways. Right. Well, these, these people that pop up like they are being radicalized in acute ways by these same kinds of mechanisms. And I just like, we need to be honest about that. We need to think about that. We need to figure out ways for, for, for leaders to kind of attack that culturally and also like the underlying problem of what happens to people when they radicalize online.

[Jon Favreau]

Yeah. And that's why you, that's why you gotta condemn violence and extrajudicial violence where. And political violence, wherever it happens, whoever commits it, whoever it's against, and doing so does not like, stop that violence from happening. But not doing so creates an environment where it starts to be a little more likely and maybe someone else thinks it's okay and who's not doing well. And it's just, that's. You just. You gotta condemn it when it happens. And politicians and leaders in both parties need to do that.

[Tommy Vietor]

Little gun control would be good too.

[Jon Favreau]

Yeah.

[Jon Lovett]

The other thing too though is like there's a political scientist who's an expert in political violence. Talked about this in the Times, about how actually what might be most useful is for Democrats and Republicans to make statements together. But one big fucking problem is that Donald Trump just pardoned all the insurrectionists and sent a signal that there's a certain kind of political violence that he's a huge, huge fan of. Right. And is one of the biggest sort of stokers of political violence in our country. Kind of constantly calling his enemies vermin and all the rest. And so like the kind of. It's just a.

[Jon Favreau]

Well.

[Tommy Vietor]

And when Trump was shot, literally everyone condemned it. Every single Democrat, every Republican, former presidents. Like, you know, it was like it was everywhere. Everyone did. And in this case, like, we can't get Trump to say, yeah, I'm gonna call Tim Walls, I'm wish him while he gets. It's completely infertaining.

[Jon Favreau]

Yeah. The news about the shootings broke on the Day of the no Kings protests, which continued as planned even in Minnesota, where Governor Walz tried to warn people away from participating because of the no Kings flyers found in the killer's car. Across the country, an estimated 5 million people showed up, which makes it one of the single largest protests in American history. Overwhelmingly peaceful, very few arrests. The protests were planned to coincide with Trump's military parade in Washington, D.C. which turned out to be fairly subdued and sparsely attended. One guy in attendance told the Guardian he thought Trump was politicizing the army and that the parade was, quote, just kind of lame. Trump himself may have briefly fallen asleep. What'd you guys make of the no Kings events? Well, Tommy, you were with me.

[Tommy Vietor]

Yeah, they're fun.

[Jon Favreau]

Love it. You were downtown.

[Tommy Vietor]

Went to West Hollywood so we could bring. So I could bring my daughter, Lizette. As we were parking, we walked up, a bunch of people jogged by, ripped and shirtless, and she kept saying, why is he nakey, Nikki? Why is he nakey, Nikki?

[Jon Favreau]

I was like, we were in WeHo.

[Tommy Vietor]

Welcome to West Hollywood.

[Jon Lovett]

Had a good time in WeHo. Yeah, I went. I went downhound now. You guys went. You guys went. Hung out with the family. Yeah.

[Jon Favreau]

It was fun, though.

[Tommy Vietor]

It was like joyful, you know, people singing songs, good speeches. I don't know. Every protest I've ever gone to is. It's. It's a joyful affair. It's people happy to be together, especially in person, especially after Covid. I don't know. It was good.

[Jon Lovett]

Yeah. Like, we went downtown and we were in front of City hall. And at first it didn't seem like it was just sort of gathered right on the steps of City Hall. But then as we were there, more and more people started coming, and there were these sort of ad. Like these sort of marches coming from all directions, kind of filling the park. And then we kind of followed that. And first of all, it was interesting, right, because you saw, like, what looked like what I would say is sort of like a women's march adjacent group of people, right? There was a lot of. There was kind of like the no Kings kind of resistance libs. They were out in force. But there were also tons of anti ice, pro immigrant protests that have been sort of showing up at downtown for the last couple of days. And it all kind of blended together into what looked to me as like the most averse protest I've ever been to in Los Angeles or ever. And we. We walked down, just sort of seeing where all the different protests were going, and we ended up wandering down to the federal building, where a lot of the kind of confrontations and sort of. The sort of more kind of the vandalism has happened. Some of the violence and kind of back and forth with police have happened. And we went to the federal building and there were the Marines standing in front of the federal building, just fucking standing there. There was. There was a police officer with them. And so when somebody would kind of walk to kind of press the line a little, the cop would talk to them. The Marines really didn't. At least that I saw. But, you know, some people were shouting at the Marines angrily, some people kind of more forlornly being like, you shouldn't be here. Right. You saw, like, everything there. But what I felt, seeing them, the Marines, is like, God, like, in the same way, like Trump forcing, like, the military kind of march in front of him on his birthday. He's sending these fucking guys to a federal building. And you're like, why are they guarding the federal building? To protect them from the protesters. Why are the protesters there? To be. Because they're angry about the Marines.

[Jon Favreau]

Yeah.

[Jon Lovett]

And it just like you felt. I just felt.

[Tommy Vietor]

Licking ice cream.

[Jon Lovett]

Like, I just felt. Yeah, exactly. I just felt bad for them. Like, the whole thing, like, felt combustible. Like, you just felt like, oh, this is where. Later. This is where it's going to happen. Because as. As all these protesters that came for the main event start leaving, they will just be left behind. Some of the more kind of like the people that have been kind of throwing and making kind of trouble over the last couple days. And sure enough, that is what happens. And. And that happened as the night wore on. But, like, for the most part, it was incredibly moving and inspiring to be down there.

[Jon Favreau]

I will just say, too huge credit to our friends at Indivisible and other groups who organize these protests. That is. I mean, that is a very tough thing to organize and to pull off well. And from what I saw at our protest, there was also, like, a discipline involved. You know, the first speaker was like, it's gonna be peaceful. We wanna make sure that everyone can speak. Who's speaking. Also, like, turn to someone next to you who, you don't know, shake their hand.

[Tommy Vietor]

Yeah, I didn't like that part, of course. Don't touch me, you sweaty, sweaty person.

[Jon Favreau]

But I had a couple.

[Jon Lovett]

Some people go to. We heard to be touched. Not Tommy.

[Jon Favreau]

I did have a couple of friends ask me, like, what. So what's the point of these protests? Like Trump's. You can't beat Trump again. He's already president, it's year one. And I get that. But I think like, building this capacity and sort of exercising the muscle right now of, you know, on a beautiful day in June, getting 5 million people out in the country to protest Donald Trump is gonna be important in the coming years, especially if Trump continues to push us away from democracy and towards authoritarianism. Because you're gonna wanna have this capacity. And I think it is also very valuable for people to get out of their fucking houses and offline and actually see people in real life who are also feeling the same way. You.

[Tommy Vietor]

Yeah, definitely. Also be nice to the poor military guys who are deployed in California.

[Jon Favreau]

I know, I really.

[Tommy Vietor]

Especially the active duty guys, the Marines, like, I bet they were like, what, 18 to 20?

[Jon Lovett]

They look so young.

[Tommy Vietor]

The active duty guys are so young when you see them in person. I mean, like the National Guard, you tend to be older. They're like people with other jobs are in their 30s, they're from California, but.

[Jon Favreau]

Like, they're not happy either.

[Tommy Vietor]

None of them want to be on those streets. It sucks for them just as much as for us. Like having them here in our, in our city.

[Jon Lovett]

And it just felt, you just feel how unnecessary it all was. Just like they are there because Donald Trump doesn't give a fuck about them. They are a prop to create the illusion of whatever. And that just sort of made me feel really sad about the whole situation. But also like, you know what? Like, yeah, millions of people are showing up and it is raising the, it raises the price for what they're trying to do. Even, even, even if it is not a specific response to a specific raid, like all these people showing up. It raises the price on, on whether they try to do mass deportations, they go to kind of farm country, whatever they're trying to do.

[Jon Favreau]

Speaking of the military, what did you guys think of the, the parade in DC? The. The army turned 250 and Donald Trump decided to co opt their birthday for his own. He got himself a little parade. I did not like watch any of it unfold live. I saw clips on Twitter, but what did you guys think?

[Tommy Vietor]

I didn't watch one second of it. And the clips I saw, I mean, obviously they were mostly clipped by people with partisan political agendas, right?

[Jon Lovett]

As.

[Tommy Vietor]

As happens on Twitter. I don't know, it made me wonder if we all hyperventilated about it a little too much and whether the lead up was a little silly and made everyone involved look silly and it was just a stupid parade that was a waste of time and Money and yeah, whatnot.

[Jon Lovett]

But yeah, I had the same feeling. I couldn't tell John and I talked about this on YouTube a little bit too. But like that, that, like, when I actually saw it, I was like, oh my God, like, you know, America doesn't do authoritarian North Korea style military parades. And so even when Trump tries to do one, it ends up just looking like Veterans Day, you know, and like they're, you know, just there are people in a park. Some people I think because they're Trump supporters, some people because there's just a thing happening. It all looks very sort of unthreatening in the end. Maybe that's also in part because the military does not want to participate in an authoritarian display of military power on behalf of our autocrat. So you end up seeing guys with fifes in the tri corner hats. Hard to get mad about that. Hard to be sad when you see those guys.

[Jon Favreau]

I always thought it was a wasteful, dumb thing to do. And also that the idea here is to fulfill Trump's clearly authoritarian intentions. Whether it was an actual threat, the threat seemed lessened by the fact that the week prior there were actual federal troops, federalized National Guardsmen and Marines on the ground here in LA because of protests. So that seemed like much more of a threat than the parade.

[Tommy Vietor]

Yeah. And to be honest, sort of stole.

[Jon Favreau]

The spotlight from the parade being threatening.

[Tommy Vietor]

Well, the LA deployment and us kind of like living in that kind of upped my anxiety about the military parade, which ultimately I agree with you, it was the reverse. It just was like, who cares?

[Jon Favreau]

Yeah. And I think the 5 million people peacefully protesting also helped too. Like that was an outlet for people's anxiety over the parade and the fact that they smartly did not hold one in dc, which I think was, you.

[Jon Lovett]

Know, I didn't totally get that. And once I saw how it all unfolded, it was really, really smart. It took the microphone from him. And by the way, just a lesson of protests over the last decade, we are now at the 10 year mark of fucking Trump coming down the escalator protests. Take the microphone away from Donald Trump. His parade was not the big story. The protests were a much bigger story. Cuz it was more interesting, exciting and newsworthy.

[Tommy Vietor]

Except on Fox News did not cut to the protests anytime in their three hour broadcast protests.

[Jon Favreau]

They weren't talking about Iran and Israel most of that time. They weren't talking about the political assassinations in Minnesota. It was just like the most important thing in the world right now is this fucking parade.

[Tommy Vietor]

Look at the treads on that tank it was all that kind of crap.

[Jon Favreau]

So wild.

[Tommy Vietor]

Ridiculous.

[Jon Favreau]

They're embarrassing. Pod Save America is brought to you by ZipRecruiter. Summers here and seasonal businesses are hiring everything from mule packers to drama camp leaders. This means that people with these specific skills are in high demand and they are not easy to find. I've been looking for a mule packer everywhere. Whether you're hiring for one of these roles or any other role, how do you find top talent before the competition gets to them? And right now you can try ZipRecruiter for free at ZipRecruiter.com Crooked in fairness, it's their fault for putting Mule Packer. We didn't do that. We didn't suggest Mule Packer. Fine folks had ziprecruiter ziprecruiter that what they do over there is they also utilize powerful methods technology to quickly identify top talent for your job openings. Like Mule Packer, the smart technology shows you qualified candidates immediately after you post your role. Performing a deep dive to find the right fit. Again evoking that mule packer looking for a standout candidate. ZipRecruiter enables swift connections. Utilize ZipRecruiter's pre written invite to apply feature to directly engage top prospects. We've used ZipRecruiter. Haven't found many meal packers, but found a lot of other great positions to hire for using ZipRecruiter. It makes life a lot easier than just going through resumes yourself. Hiring is difficult. ZipRecruiter makes it much easier. Gear up for summer with ZipRecruiter's high speed hiring tools. See why 4 out of 5 employers who post on ZipRecruiter get a quality candidate within the first day. Just go to this exclusive web address right now to try ZipRecruiter for free. Ziprecruiter.com Crooked Again that ZipRecruiter.com Crooked ZipRecruiter is the smartest way to hire.

[Jon Lovett]

Hey, I'm journalist Sam Sanders.

[Saeed Jones]

I'm poet Saeed Jones.

[Zach Stafford]

And I'm producer Zach Stafford. And we are the hosts of a podcast called Vibe Check.

[Wes Moore]

On Vibe Check, we talk about everything.

[Jon Lovett]

News, culture and entertainment and how it all feels.

[Zach Stafford]

That's right, we talk about any and everything on our show, from real life issues like grief to music and movie critiques. And that barely scratches the surface.

[Saeed Jones]

Yes, indeed. And it doesn't stop there. We have got a lot to say, so join our group, chat, come to life, follow and listen to Vibe Check wherever you get your podcasts.

[Jon Favreau]

One of the big issues that brought people out to protest is Trump's mass deportations, which have become very unpopular very quickly. Late last week, Trump even acknowledged that his immigration raids were hurting farmers and the hospitality industry. And the administration issued new guidance to ICE telling them to pause raids and arrests in the agricultural, hotel and restaurant industries. But then on Sunday, Trump made it clear that his deportation policy isn't really about targeting criminals and protecting farmers and hospitality workers. It's about targeting immigrants in blue states and protecting them in red states. He directed ICE, via Truth Social to, quote, expand efforts to detain and deport illegal aliens in America's largest cities, such as Los Angeles, Chicago and New York, because, quote, these and other such cities are the core of the Democrat power center, where sanctuary cities play such a big role. You don't hear about sanctuary cities in our heartland. At the G7 on Monday, Trump responded to a reporter's question about his post.

[Wes Moore]

You did a post last night where you said you want ICE to really target Democrats.

[Donald Trump]

Yeah, I want them to focus on the cities because the, the cities are where you really have what's called sanctuary cities, and that's where the people are. I look at New York, I look at Chicago, I look at L, A, Louisiana, those people weren't from L. A, they weren't from California. Most of those people, all blue cities, all Democrat run cities, and they think they're going to use them to vote. It's not going to happen.

[Jon Favreau]

I mean, it's been reported that Trump only changed his mind on the farm workers after lobbying by his agriculture secretary, who is getting help from some of the big farmers and producers, many of whom in red states, also business owners. What do you make of Trump's back and forth on this?

[Tommy Vietor]

Yeah, I mean, it feels like it's policy in progress. You know, farms, construction sites, restaurants, meatpacking plants, they will all shut down if I deport every undocumented person who works there. And so I'm sure he's getting calls from CEOs and business interests and business lobbying groups to tell him that much and tell him to dial down a little bit. But on the political front, we've been saying this for the past week like Trump wants a fight with liberal cities. They think it's good politics. His staff is giddy when he starts a fight with California or Gavin Newsom. They run to the DC Tip sheets to tell them how great it's going for them. And then the polling comes out and it shows the opposite. But I did find what was remarkable about that truth social statement, was Trump not kind of dropping the pretext that it was about safety and security and just saying that Democrats, quote, use illegal aliens to expand their voter base, cheat in elections and grow the welfare state while real Americans are cheering ICE on. Like that's just not a compelling rationale, I think, for most people to explain an ICE raid.

[Jon Favreau]

Undocumented immigrants don't vote. How many times are we fucking gonna do this again? Like this whole theory, the whole replacement theory is so ridiculous. They don't vote. And by the way, Trump won naturalized immigrants in the last election. It's so stupid.

[Jon Lovett]

The, the like saying that he's not going to go after farm workers or hospitality workers. Those are two of the three big categories. Tommy mentioned. The third, construction. It's interesting he hasn't mentioned that yet. I'm sure people will. His fucking real estate developer buddies will get him on the phone and the next thing you'll know, say, we're not going to go after, we need the construction workers. Because by the way, there are already shortages of construction workers. But it's like, what does Trump want? He wants to declare victory. He wants images of, of mass deportations, but he doesn't want the mass deportations to impact the economy. So it's like almost what he wants is deportations without deportees. Right? He wants to be claimed to be successfully doing the thing of this kind of campaign against immigrants. But then he doesn't want the economic consequences. So California where a so called sanctuary state, the population of undocumented immigrants in California has been going down. It has gone down. It went down by 100,000 from 2019 to 2022. Texas passes a law banning sanctuary cities in 2017, undocumented immigrants living and working in Texas goes up. Florida passes a law in 2019. In the three years since passing that law, Florida's population of undocumented immigrants goes up by 400,000. Why? It is not because of the politics. It is despite the politics, because people go to where they can afford to work and to live. California is too fucking expensive. So for the same reason that Florida and Texas brags about their economy all the time, they are drawing all these undocumented immigrants. And so what has happened? They have created a situation where the most hostile places actually have a growing economy built on the backs of a growing population of undocumented labor. And so then you have now Trump saying, I'm gonna go after what, the blue cities, that's where the immigrants are. It's just not true, right? There are no sanctuary cities in Florida, there are no sanctuary cities in Texas. The politics of the cruelty of what they're doing to immigrants or immigrants feeling less safe in those places has had no impact on this. Right. Because this is an economic problem. It is not a kind of you can try to enforce your way out of it without hurting the economy. It's just not possible.

[Jon Favreau]

So Trump acknowledges that these undocumented immigrants are vital to our economy, and he thinks that they should be protected. And he also just wants to make sure that people who've are here illegally, who've committed crimes, get deported. So one idea for him is the people who are here who undocumented, perhaps if they're working, we can give them some kind of a, like a path where they can then become fully citizens. And then folks who commit crimes, we can deport them back. And then we can have a sort of tough security at the border to make sure we don't have more illegal crossings. That's one idea. Now, the reason that we don't have that is because Stephen Miller, who's actually running most of Trump's policy, is telling him that they're all criminals. And because Stephen Miller actually wants every undocumented immigrant and most documented immigrants out of the country. And he's been very clear on that. He doesn't want legal immigration. They just added. They're thinking of adding another 36 countries to the travel ban list. Used to be Muslim majority countries. Now it's just, you know, a lot of countries in Africa, people of color, right? Steven Miller just doesn't. He just doesn't want immigrants here because he hates immigrants. Because he's hated immigrants since he was in fucking high school in Santa Monica. And he would, you know, shout racial slurs at them. So, like, that's the kind of dynamic here. And Trump's thinking to himself, like, I want the good ones and I don't want the bad ones. And he's just too stupid to realize what the fucking difference is.

[Jon Lovett]

Well, he's even said that, or he's even said some version of like, they should be able to stay. There should be some sort of a way for them to stay. He's describing comprehensive immigration reform. But then, you know, Stephen Miller then says, go to the Home Depot. They start going to the Home Depots. What does that do? That terrifies people to go to work. That makes it so that people don't show up to do their jobs because they're afraid. And it shuts down construction, it shuts down businesses.

[Tommy Vietor]

Politically, he should just take the win. Like you shut down the border, go to the border once a week and brag about it. In states where the local law enforcement will work with ice, deport people who are arrested, deport actual criminals in the sanctuary cities where they won't work with you. Let the governor deal with it. You know, like there's such an obvious, like smart political win for him that doesn't involve picking a fight with Los Angeles and New York. But clearly they just want the fight. They want the news cycle.

[Jon Favreau]

Miller wants the fight, Miller wants them all gone. I mean, ice's own figures. CNN just had a report on this today, and this is from ICE. Less than 10% of the roughly 185,000 people booked into ICE custody from October through May 31 have been convicted of serious crimes like murder, rape, assault or Rob. Less than 10%. So this whole idea that they're going after the worst of the worst. And DHS put out another statement this morning saying we're only going after the worst of the worst. We know exactly who we're going after. That's not true because the Wall Street Journal reported last week that Miller said, you don't have to have lists of people that you're targeting anymore. Just go out and make a bunch of arrests. 3,000 arrests a day, that's it.

[Jon Lovett]

And then they start signaling. Homan is signaling this, that, oh, don't worry, we're gonna go after the employers next. Don't worry, we're going after the employers that'll help us pick up this, pick up the deportations or the self deportations. And then you say, well, okay, you're going after employers. But the president just said to leave agriculture alone. And the President just said to leave hotels and restaurants alone. That's the two biggest sectors, or two of the three biggest sectors. So then you're only gonna.

[Jon Favreau]

Unless you're a hotel or a restaurant in a blue city, then I'm sure he doesn't wanna leave you alone.

[Jon Lovett]

It's just cuz it's not because it's. It's just, it's cuz it's all just being made up. They're making it up as they go.

[Jon Favreau]

Yeah. All right, before we get to my interview with Wes Moore, I do want to touch on an exciting new product launch from our friends in Trump World. On Monday, Eric Trump announced that his family is getting into the mobile phone business. That's right. For just $500, you'll be able to get yourself a shiny gold T1 phone from Trump Mobile. And for a monthly fee of just 47, 45. You can sign up for the 47 plan that includes unlimited talk, text data and so much more. Tech journalists are pointing out that the America first phone looks an awful lot like a model already made by the Chinese company Wingtech and available on T Mobile. But it is gold. It is gold. A reporter at 404 Media tried to pre order the T1 smartphone and said the website failed, went to an error page and charged in the wrong amount for the down payment. Were were you guys able to put in your pre orders yet?

[Tommy Vietor]

That's so funny. Charging in the wrong amount is such a nice little chefsky setting. I mean these things are so stupid. First of all, there's not gonna be a real Trump cell phone network. It's a virtual mobile network. Remember, remember Patriot Mobile? They were selling like anti woke cell service and then when you really dig into the details, they just buy like they license in bulk access to AT&T T Mobile, all the so called woke providers that you're, they're railing against in their ads. So you're just getting played. And then there's just literally no way the Trump team can build these phones in the US unless this rollout is like five years too early. Like there's just no infrastructure to build a smartphone in the United States right now. And so if you look at the website, it says Trump Mobile, its products and services are not designed, developed, manufactured, distributed or sold by the Trump Organization or any of their respective affiliates or principals. So they're clearly just like licensing out some Chinese phone and then pretending they have their own network. And then in practice, Trump is now like a fake telecom phone operator, but also oversees the fcc, which is, which.

[Jon Favreau]

Is no longer independent, totally ethical and normal. He's taken away the independence of the fcc. He's got a Trump stooge in charge of it and now he's in the mobile phone business.

[Jon Lovett]

But I just, yeah, I saw the announcement. I did not think he was building a 5G network of his own and I did not think he was making a phone in the United States because nobody does that. We don't do that. So I was like, yeah, okay, so he's doing like a kind of whatever.

[Jon Favreau]

He's not building a 5G network of his own because RFK Jr. Is like, don't do that.

[Tommy Vietor]

That's a good point. Yeah, those are bad.

[Jon Favreau]

It's going to mess with your boop.

[Jon Lovett]

You know, makes it, makes you gay. Makes the frogs gay. 5G makes the frogs gay. But the, but yeah, but the, the like what are you guys doing? You guys, you're going to. You're buying. Maybe they're assembling them or doing something to make it made in America or assembled in America at some point, which I don't even think they figured this part of it out yet. Doesn't totally seem like, by the way, everyone's like, oh, this is definitely the phone. Are you sure that's the phone? Or did somebody grab a picture of a phone off the Internet and put a fucking gold thing on it and they have no idea what the phone's gonna be yet? So, like, this whole thing is so stupid. I don't even understand who this grift is for. It's more expensive than some of the cheaper, like, similar kind of fake phone brands. So it's like. So this is for, like, some small subset of Trump super fans.

[Jon Favreau]

Like, I think it's like licensing too, because I read that they're working with some of the carriers. So it's not like they're inventing their own Verizon or T Mobile. They're, like working with some of these companies to license the mobile carriers.

[Jon Lovett]

Yeah, it's just a white label on just another service.

[Jon Favreau]

It's just ridiculous.

[Jon Lovett]

And I just don't know. Like, I just truly, like, I don't know. Like, I'm a pretty big Barack Obama fan, but I wouldn't buy a phone from the guy.

[Jon Favreau]

Remember the Obama phones? Remember that scandal? This is now. This is now a real Obama phone thing.

[Tommy Vietor]

Those are allegedly given out free to people. Yeah, the whole grift is, I think they partner with some idiotic provider, someone who's gonna, like, buy these phones in bulk. They slap their name on it and they take like a 20% rip on whatever the sales are, Right?

[Jon Lovett]

That's right. There is a company that says they can do this, right? There's a company that says they can do that. That company pays a fee to them. That company charges something on top of what it costs to get the service. And then Trump and the family charges a service on top of that. And so whatever the delta is between the cost of like, whatever, T Mobile or whatever, Boost Mobile or whatever, they'll just. That's the profit they make off the backs of, like, some dumb fuck MAGA dumbass buying this phone off of the Internet.

[Jon Favreau]

So anyway, exciting announcement from us. Buy your own crooked phone.

[Jon Lovett]

We gotta do this. God, what a stupid time. What a stupid, dangerous time.

[Jon Favreau]

Look, you know, you gotta have a phone that aligns with your values. Sometimes the news, that's what Eric Trump said we need a phone that aligns with our values.

[Jon Lovett]

Woke phones.

[Tommy Vietor]

What does that mean? I know. I don't see.

[Jon Favreau]

It's like, yeah, like the phone.

[Tommy Vietor]

I don't need my phone to agree with me.

[Jon Favreau]

Phone's going to raid a foreign policy.

[Jon Lovett]

What's the phone going to do? Stop a trans swimmer?

[Tommy Vietor]

My phone doesn't have an agenda. What are you talking about?

[Jon Lovett]

This phone stops trans swimmers. This machine. This machine stops DEI hiring policies.

[Jon Favreau]

I do want to get our hands on one one of the Trump phones if it does come to pass, just to see what it looks like.

[Jon Lovett]

They did the watches, they did the NFTs. It's like they're just skimming off the top of their stupid political organization.

[Jon Favreau]

Well, he's making a lot of money, I think as his last disclosure was, like, he's made like $600 million so far as president.

[Jon Lovett]

He's finally a billionaire. He's finally a billionaire. It's unbelievable.

[Tommy Vietor]

My note to them, I'm not a business guy, but I would just say stick to the crypto. You're selling vaporware, you're selling nothing. Getting paid on that.

[Jon Favreau]

Don't stick to that either. Maybe try to be ethical. Maybe try to make money the real way.

[Tommy Vietor]

All right, Jiminy Craig, Jimmy Carter over here.

[Jon Favreau]

I'm gonna go sell my peanut farm. When we come back, you'll hear my conversation with Maryland Governor Wes Moore about how governor should be responding to this moment. But one quick thing before we do that, check out the latest episode of Assembly Required with Stacey Abrams. Stacey's joined by political commentators Aaron Parnas and Khalil Green to talk about why Democrats are losing young voters. They dig into how the right has figured out platforms like TikTok and YouTube and how Democrats are still playing catch up. Listen to Assembly Required wherever you get your podcasts or on YouTube when we come back. Wesmore Pod Save America is brought to you by Bombus. Summer's here and we're all chasing something. A break, a goal, a vibe. Let's not let bad socks and blisters ruin it. Bombus makes socks that keep up with whatever your summer looks like, whether you're running a marathon or just a few errands. Seriously, you know that song that makes you want to go fast? Bombus Running socks are just like that. They wick sweat, help you keep cool and fight blisters. And it's not just running. They make specialized pair for hiking, tennis, golf, you name it. They even make socks that can make international flights bearable. Yeah, we're talking Bombas compression socks to help curb aches and keep those legs energized for all the sightseeing ahead. Plus, with wedding season in full swing, you're gonna want to see their ruffle and dress socks. That'll make you the best dressed guest. Best of all, they don't just feel good, they do good. One purchased equals one donated to someone who needs it. Pretty neat, right? You can also order Bombas abroad. That's right. Along with the US they now ship internationally to over 2, 200 countries. Love Bombus have Bombas socks? Whole family does. They're comfy. They look cool. You can get them all different colors and patterns and. And they're just really comfy. Head over to bombas.comcrooked and use code CROOKED for 20% off your first purchase. That's B O M B A S.com crooked code CROOKED at checkout bombas.com CROOKED and use code crooked.

[Jon Lovett]

Hey, I'm journalist Sam Sanders.

[Saeed Jones]

I'm poet Saeed Jones.

[Zach Stafford]

And I'm producer Zach Stafford. And we are the hosts of a podcast podcast called Vibe Check.

[Jon Lovett]

On Vibe Check, we talk about everything. News, culture, and entertainment and how it all feels.

[Zach Stafford]

That's right. We talk about any and everything on our show, from real life issues like grief to music and movie critiques. And that barely scratches the surface.

[Saeed Jones]

Yes, indeed. And it doesn't stop there. We have got a lot to say, so join our group, chat, come to life, follow and listen to Vibe Check wherever you get your podcasts.

[Jon Favreau]

Governor Westmore, welcome to the pod.

[Wes Moore]

It's great to be back. Great to be back.

[Jon Favreau]

So Trump had a military parade over the weekend. It was held in your backyard. I saw that. Instead of attending, you went for a run with service members at Fort Meade. Having served in the military yourself, how'd you feel watching whatever coverage you saw of the parade?

[Wes Moore]

Yeah, I mean, honestly, I didn't watch any coverage of the. Of the parade. I'm not sure. I really, really missed much, you know, and it looked like not many people watch it there in person either, you know, but. But it's. It's. It is one of these things where, you know, I have a deep love for the United States army because this is an organization that really helped to save my life. You know, I joined the army when I was 17 years old. I joined the Army. I wasn't young enough to. I wasn't old enough to sign the paperwork. My mom signed the paperwork for me. But this was an organization that didn't just change the trajectory of my life. I think Everything I learned, everything that I gained from serving in the military have been things that I still use to this day. These are my brothers and sisters for life, the people who I serve with in Afghanistan. And so I took the 250th as something that was very deeply personal, where it's a, you know, the fact that we could be out there and enjoy the freedoms we enjoy. Someone had to fight for those. Right. Someone had to protect those freedoms. And oftentimes it was the people who were wearing our, the uniforms that I wore, the uniforms of the people, you know, who we, who we celebrate wore, and also as a celebration of those who died in those uniforms. And so I just thought that there was a much better way for us to be able to remember the importance of the United States Army. There was a much better way for us to be able to remember the importance of those men and women who raised their hands to serve in an organization that has helped to make this country as strong as it is. There's a much better way to remember those. And frankly, when you were watching an administration who's doing things like cutting the budget for the Department of Veterans affairs, cutting benefits for veterans, that is firing federal workers at just this breakneck speed, regardless of the fact that one in three federal workers are military veterans themselves. But then you think that a celebration of the army is throwing a parade on your birthday. I just find it to be just deeply tone deaf and frankly, deeply offensive.

[Jon Favreau]

Yeah. I was saying to a friend earlier that I sort of felt for the troops watching the parade. And I wonder, having served yourself and received the training you did, and not asking you to put yourself in the minds of every service member, but how do you think it feels in the armed services right now? You have federal troops in the streets of LA or federalized Guard. You have Marines here as well. There was that speech at Fort Bragg the other week where Trump. They screened participants for loyalty to Trump. And you had some service members behind him who were more pro Trump, and they were booing names of Democratic officials when Trump was attacking them and cheering when he was making fun of others. How do you think it feels to be serving in the military right now, considering the political backdrop?

[Wes Moore]

It's sad. And I do feel for them. I think your description is right. I just feel horrible for them because that's not why we signed up. You know, I had the honor of serving with some of the most amazing men and women that I've ever met. And there was one question I never asked a single one of them. What's your political party. I never asked one of them how they voted in the last election. I never asked one of them what your voter registration is. Never. The men and women who I led, the men and women who I serve with, with, the only thing that we had in our minds was our ability to take care of each other and to do everything in our power to make sure that we were bringing the other one home, that no matter what, that we would do everything in our power to make sure that you got back home to your family. And I think about just how different an experience this is for these men and women who are serving, in some cases, again, members of the 82nd Airborne Division. That was. That was my unit in Afghanistan. And it's just kind of unimaginable to think that that's something that they're being asked now about their political loyalties, whether or not they're going to get a chance to be seen on television or not. I just think that the work is too serious for that. The consequences are too dire for that. And these are people who have put their hands on a Bible and pledged allegiance not to an individual. Now, I never took a pledge. I never took an oath to the President of the United States. My oath was to the Constitution. Right? My oath was to the values. My oath was to protect this country, to fight and win our nation's war, to protect our country against all enemies, foreign and domestic. That was the oath that I took. It was never to an individual, no matter who the commander in chief was at the time. And I just think it's really important that the way we honor the service of these individuals who are part of the less than 1% who have raised their hand of this country to be able to protect it and defend it, and to give their lives if necessary. The way you honor their service is by respecting the oath that they took. And I just felt like that was a. And the things that we've seen, it wasn't just one incident. It's just now kind of repeated. A series of incidents just seemed to be a real deviation of the oath that we all took.

[Jon Favreau]

So also this weekend, it seems like an estimated 5 million or so people came out to protest Donald Trump, one of the single largest protests in American history. I've had a couple people ask me, what's the actual goal of these protests and where do they go from here? What do you think?

[Wes Moore]

You know, I respect people's First Amendment rights, and I think that we all have a right to the freedom of assembly, of a freedom of speech. And I think that people should pay attention, that there is a very real frustration to what's happening with this administration. And it's not. The really interesting thing about the protest is it's not a frustration to an individual incident, right? It's not a frustration saying, oh, it's the policy around immigration, or, oh, this is a policy around the potential cuts to Medicaid, or, oh, this is a protest to the way that we are firing federal workers. Because the motivations for so many people who are out there marching is varied and it's different, but it's all tied up in one theme. And that is this idea that no one is above the law and everyone has an obligation to defend it, protect it and follow it. That's the whole idea of no kings, right? And so that's the thing that I think is really powerful in some ways about the protest is there's not a single political issue that got people out there. But it is just on this idea that we believe that the president, states should actually follow the law. And we believe that the people collectively, that our voice is much bigger and much stronger than just an individual or even a individual political party that's involved. Because I think even out there, you didn't just see Democrats, right? There were Democrats, Independents, Republicans, you know, agnostics out there. But they're all protesting the idea of protecting a value and something that we as we as Americans take very seriously and very personally. And so I think the thing that we've got to remember in all this, though, and the question of where do we take it from here? We have to remember that this energy and this push is not about a singular day. It's. We have to keep the intensity up. And we also have to remember that the results that people are hoping for and hoping to see in their own lives, that that's something that we're not willing to compromise on either, like how we're going to be remembered in this moment ten years from now is not how loud we yelled, right? It's not how many. How many people showed up to our protest. It was the fact that were we able to deliver on the hopes that people actually have for what their government can provide? And I think if we do that, then we can turn this thing from just a. From a moment to a much larger. To a much larger movement.

[Jon Favreau]

So I'm sure you were horrified by the news of the political assassinations in Minnesota over the weekend. I didn't think it could get any worse until I saw the reaction from prominent right wing Figures who spread obviously false conspiracies about the shooter's politics. US Senator Mike Lee said this is what happens when Marxists don't get their way. Senator Bernie Moreno, Elon Musk, both said it shows how the left has become violent. Trump influencers like Mike Chernovich and Alex Jones even suggested that Tim Waltz was behind the assassination. You had tweeted how saddened you were by it, and you also said that we need a renewed commitment to civil discourse. How do we even begin to do that when that's the reaction from some of the most influential people on the Republican Party?

[Wes Moore]

Yeah, it's tough. It's tough when, when something so horrific happens to two people and, and frankly, I, I, I don't care what your political affiliation is. I don't care if you agree or disagree. When you have two public servants who were, who were taken out, I mean, literally targeted assassinations and then targeted assassination attempts for, you know, because of a political ideology, you know, you cannot tell me that the attempts that we saw, we've seen, that we saw on Franklin, on President Trump, that that should break your heart anymore or any less than what we saw in Minnesota. And I think it says a whole lot about people who think that somehow that politics was behind one. The danger of this political violence is more dangerous in one than the other. We have to remember that in this time, it is important for us to be able to both turn down the language and the rhetoric and to know that being a public servant should not mean risking your life. We've passed legislation here in the state of Maryland that's focused on things like protecting our judges and protecting our election workers, because we've had election workers attacked. We had a judge recently in the state of Maryland over in western Maryland, assassinated, killed in front of his own home. Home. So we've been very clear that this level of political violence and political vitriol is, is not just dangerous, it must be stopped. But, but, but, but we have to be able to have the courage to be able to call it out, no matter what it looks like and no matter who's doing it.

[Jon Favreau]

Is it something you've worried about for yourself? Your own family?

[Wes Moore]

I mean, listen, I think it's something that for each and every one of us, we worry about. I mean, I, I, I, I, unfortunately, you know, I get FBI and intelligence reports every single week. I know how the level of threats have increased since I've been the governor. Right. As the first black governor in the history of the state of Maryland is only the third African American ever elected as a governor in this country's history. You know, I've seen the data about the increase in threats that have come. I also know this, that the thing we're asking of our public servants and the promise we make to our public servants is for people who are willing to raise their hands, for people who are willing to serve something bigger than themselves, for people who are willing to go into this work understanding the difficulties that it presents to you and your family members. At least that we can do do is to make sure that you can feel safe in your own home, in your own communities, in your own skin, that your families can feel safe. And that it's not just the obligation, frankly, of law enforcement to be able to provide that for us. It's up to the citizens, whether they are supporters of us or not, to be able to say that we can. Even if we disagree with what a person is saying, it should never get to a point that we are then threatening them or their families or their families safety.

[Jon Favreau]

So we still have American troops deployed here in Los Angeles, and Trump just directed ICE to expand operations in blue state cities. How are you planning to handle a potential expansion of immigration raids in a city like Baltimore or even a deployment of troops in your state? Or Trump trying to federalize the Maryland National Guard? There was a Washington Post story last week that said Trump wants the National Guard to play a bigger role in immigration enforcement going forward.

[Wes Moore]

Yeah, you know, as both the commander in chief of Maryland's National Guard and as someone who's worn the uniform, you know, truthfully, I take that role very seriously. In fact, just this past weekend, I was with the members of our National Guard as we, as they were training up to be able to help protect our citizens if we called out orders for them to do so. And I'm a big believer that the people on the ground have the best understanding about what's happening. There's a reason that we have an escalation of resources that we can deploy that I know how many local law enforcement officers we have. I know how many state law enforcement officers have. I know what we have in terms of our. In terms of our, our National Guard. And so that's why I think for the people on the ground, we have the best understanding of what's needed and what's required in situations to make sure that our people are safe, which for me is the number one priority to make sure that my people in. The people in my state are safe. And I take that responsibility very seriously. But when it comes to Immigration. I also know that this is a very personal issue. You know, I was raised by an immigrant single mom, and our immigration system is functionally broken. And there's one group who can solve it, and that's Congress. And the truth is, the President of the United States could fix the immigration problem right now if he chose to. He could just simply go to the speaker of the House and say, I need a comprehensive immigration bill on my desk next week. And it would be on his desk next week because he has the votes. He has the House, he has the Senate, he has the White House. And he's not doing it it. He's just simply choosing to use executive actions, many of which illegal, to be able to deal with an issue because he has no interest in dealing with the issue. And so it is very, very frustrating as a state, as the chief executive of a state, and frankly, as a commander in chief of a National Guard, in the fact that we do have a broken system. But the commander in chief of the United States army does not seem to have an interest in actually fixing it. It just has an interest in weaponizing it.

[Jon Favreau]

Yeah, and not just weaponizing it, but it does seem like his policy is, okay, if you're a farmer or you're in the hospitality industry and you're in red states or places that voted for me, maybe we can back off on immigration enforcement and we'll just target blue states. That's been the case on many of his policies and many of the institutions he's targeted since becoming president. How do you see this as a governor of a blue state, in terms of just sort of Trump using the office to declare war on blue America?

[Wes Moore]

Yeah. The way that I see it is none of this is terribly shocking. None of this is terribly surprising. We've been battleboarding for this type of scenario for a very long time. So the thing that we do is, you know, we control the things that we can control. And one of the great things about being a governor, honestly, John, is that, you know, we're able to show what an alternative looks like where, you know, we tell our people where, you know, we have a. We have a President of the United States who right now is. Is with his whole Doge project, is now actively just firing federal workers, and that we have a greater level of exposure in the state of Maryland than anyone else, because I have over 260,000 federal employees in my state.

[Jon Favreau]

State.

[Wes Moore]

And while he is arbitrarily firing federal workers, we're spending our time making sure that our federal workers are supported by Actually streamlining them into available state and private sector jobs and making sure that if I have a person who is qualified and interested, I want to get them as quickly as possible. Get them in classrooms, right, get them in hospitals, get them in places where we have a shortage, to know that their skills are necessary and know that, that we have a society that, that is going to benefit from their continued service. When we have a president of the United States who is, who is spending their time, you know, being able to use a budget to, to be able to shrink the economy. We saw a contraction of the U.S. economy in the first quarter for the first time that we've seen in years. And in our state, we've actually gone from 43rd in the country in unemployment to now being amongst the lowest, amongst the lowest unemployment rates in the entire country. By being able to focus on things like apprenticeship programs, by making Maryland the first state in the country to have a service year option for all of our high school graduates, by doing the largest mass pardon in the history of the United States of America and getting people back into the workforce, particularly people who've been excluded for the workforce for things like a misdemeanor cannabis conviction from the 1980s. And so I think the thing that we've really focused on in our state is that this binary, this us versus them, this, you know, that the only way that I can win is if you lose, that we're just showing in the state of Maryland that we think differently, that we actually think that part of the goal is that we can build a society where, as I learned in the military when I was 17 years old, where we leave no one behind. And that is the kind of society that shows that we don't have to just fall in line with what the President of the United States is doing, that we can actually provide an alternative. And I think the people of our state are responding well to it.

[Jon Favreau]

When Governor Newsom spoke about the raise in the troop deployment last week, he said, quote, democracy is under assault right before our eyes. This moment we have feared has arrived. Trump is taking a wrecking ball to our founding father's historic project. Do you agree with all that? Are you at the same level of alarm?

[Wes Moore]

Well, I think you can't look at what's happening right now and think that this is normal. These are very abnormal times. And these are times when we're watching not just an overreach of executive authority, but in many ways, an illegal reach of executive authority. The thing I would also say about that, though, is this is I'm also very honest about our country's history. I'm also very honest about our founding fathers and what their intent was, and I'm not sure if I was part of their full intent. When our founding fathers first put together the documents of this country and first put together the foundation of this country, I think this country is a constant evolution. I think this country has had a deeply uneven history. But that's actually the thing that also gives me hope, is that I don't sit there and act like the country's history doesn't exist. I think the country's history is real and it matters. And this country has had a very brutal history for a lot of groups. I also know that the reason that I can stand here as the governor of Maryland is because there were Marylanders like Harriet Tubman and Marylanders like Frederick Douglass and Marylanders like Thurgood Marshall, who, when they saw this type of breakage, when they saw this type of unevenness, when they saw these type of illegal activities taking place, that they fought and they're willing to fight for. They didn't know me by name, but they fought for the hope of me. And that's the responsibility that I very much take on right now, is that. Is that, you know, this country has seen these type of behaviors before. This country has had these type of behaviors as part of its core foundation before. But I think understanding that history is also the thing that gives me a real sense of realism and frankly, hope that joy does come in the morning, but you gotta fight for it. And that's exactly what we've chosen to do here in Maryland.

[Jon Favreau]

Speaking of our country's history, back in May, you vetoed legislation that would have created a commission to study the issue of reparations for slavery in Maryland. Your basic reasoning has been, we don't need another study. And it's time to focus on the work itself of tackling racial disparities. Obviously, you got some heat for that. Studies aside, though, do you believe reparations are justified?

[Wes Moore]

Yeah. When I looked at the bill, and the language of the bill literally lays out that we are going to do this study, this commission, and then in two years, they bring the recommendation to. To the governor. My point is this. I am the governor. I don't need two years. Let's get to work. And I think about the work that we have done in the state of Maryland. No state has been as aggressive in these past two years on this worker repair that we've seen in the state of Maryland that In the past two years, we've invested over $1.3 billion going towards our HBCUs, which is a 60% increase than we saw from our predecessor. And we've gotten it done in two years that we have created over 1600 new black homeowners in the state of Maryland by making sure we're prioritizing investments to first time home buyers, that we have been able to invest over $800 million going towards black owned businesses and by being able to do things from procurement reform, expungement reform, sign the largest mass pardon in the history of the United States of America. There is nobody who is questioning my commitment to this work work or my commitment to the work of repair. But what I am saying is this, is that there's been a whole series of scholarship on this issue. There's been a whole series of reports. There have been, you know, four others in just the past 25 years in Maryland that have been along these lines. Right. And my only point is this is, is this is the time and I'm excited to do that work with the members of our General assembly, with the members of the Black Caucus who have done really good work on this and a lot of stuff we've done together. And this is the time for continued action that, that I am, I'm, I'm, I'm, I don't need two years. I'm ready to go right now. And that's the focus that I want to be able to take. Because the truth is, is that I know how much time I have left. In fact, you know, a clock sits on my desk that I now have, have 500, 500 believe now 21 days left in my first term. I'm not wasting one of them. And I'm ready to be able to continue the work of repair that our state needs. Because the truth is, is that the history of racism is littered throughout every single aspect of the state of Maryland. And people know this. It's time for us to be able to do action on.

[Jon Favreau]

Also sounds like you believe that the work of reparations can more effectively be done with some of the policies and some of the steps you've taken in Maryland to help target racial disparities as opposed to reparations, which is a politically loaded, controversial word that may not have the political support necessary in comparison to some of the policies that you've taken on in Maryland. Is that right?

[Wes Moore]

Yeah, I think racism is not an act.

[Jon Favreau]

Right.

[Wes Moore]

Because I think actually lets people off the hook too easy because I think it's like, you know, if person's like, well, I don't, I don't, I don't wear a hood. I don't say the N word. So I'm not racist. Racism is not an act. Racism is a system. Racism is a system that allows an 8 to 1 racial wealth gap in the state of Maryland. And we have an 8 to 1 racial wealth gap not because one group is working eight times harder.

[Jon Favreau]

Right.

[Wes Moore]

It's a system that is put in place that, that racism, that, that. It's not an act that cause historical redlining. It's not an act that caused unfair appraisal values in historically redlined neighborhoods. It's not an act that caused business creation to be so dispersed and to be so divided. It's not an act that caused access to capital to be so limited, particularly in black communities. That this is a system that has created that. And so I believe deeply, deeply that the work of repair is about repairing systems. Because you could, you could have a conversation about, about how are we addressing individual acts? All you want. If the, if the people still exist in a system that doesn't work, if people still exist in a system that is broken, if people still exist in a system that allows children not to get the education that they need, for racism to show itself in the air that people are breathing, in the water that people are drinking, drinking in the homes that people are living in, in the way that they are policed, and the transportation assets they have and do not have, then, then, then, then the work of repair is not going to be done by addressing an act. The work of repair is only done when you're addressing systems. And that's why I think the focus that we've had in the state of Maryland over these past two years, where we collectively have moved on these issues faster and more aggressively than anyone else in the country, and I don't think there's anyone who can claim anything different focusing on this issue of work, wages and wealth. That I am. I'm deeply aware of our history. That's why I'm so aggressive on it. But I also know I'm not going to let people off the hook by simply saying we're going to address it by addressing individual acts, I am attacking systems because I think that's the only way that we're going to be able to address this in a longstanding fashion.

[Jon Favreau]

So you've been very clear that you are not currently running for president. You've talked about focusing on the urgency of 2025 before we get to 2028. Fair enough. Your recent travel schedule has also included events in South Carolina, Pennsylvania, Georgia, Michigan in a few weeks. Fair to assume also that you're at least thinking about it.

[Wes Moore]

No, I'm not running. And not. It's not. It's not fair to assume because honestly, if you look at where you will.

[Jon Favreau]

So you will not run?

[Wes Moore]

No, no, no, I'm not. No. And here's actually, I think the important thing for people to remember with this is I will go anywhere and everywhere to be able to not just talk about the good things that our state is doing, but also make sure that more people are coming to my state. You know, the states that you mentioned are important, but also it doesn't mention the other places that we've also gone that might not be, quote, unquote, battleground states. But you know what I was doing? I was talking to businesses to try to get them to come to the state of Maryland, just like I was doing in those states. And when I say I'm not running and why I feel so confident and very secure in that is I'm also very much a person who I, you know, when I, you know, I remember when I have a mentor of mine, the great Elijah Cummings, who was. Who was a congressman out of Baltimore who was not just a dear friend, but a mentor. And when he passed away, there were a lot of people who came up and said, you know, you should really consider running for his seat. And it was very humbling to include people very close to him. And it was very humbling. And. But I knew in my heart that's not what I wanted to do. So there was nothing that anyone could tell me to make me do it. I remember when I was getting ready when I said to myself, and I thought I was like, I want to run for governor. There are a lot of people who tell me I shouldn't run for governor. They're like, you can't win. I don't know why you're doing this. This is going to end really, really badly for you. And I knew there was nothing that anyone could tell me to make me not run. So I am very comfortable and confident with and thankful for the fact that I'm a kid who literally had handcuffs in my wrist when I was 11 years old, whose mother didn't get her first job that gave her benefits until I was 14. And I'm now serving as the chief executive of my state. I'm playing with house money right now.

[Jon Favreau]

And I'm loving the work that we're.

[Wes Moore]

Doing in Maryland because I think Maryland's just leading the country in so many different things in terms of raising wages, in terms of, you know, driving historic, historically low unemployment rates, driving historic drops in violent crime, being able to actually create wealth and wealth opportunities for everyone in our communities. Like I'm, I love my job and I love what I'm doing. And I'm also very clear that, that, that when I decided something, no one can tell me different. And I know I'm not running for, I'm not running for anything else except I'm running for reelection next year. And I hope the people of my state give me an opportunity to have another four years.

[Jon Favreau]

Well then, last question for you. We need good presidential candidates in this party in general. How do you think the national Democratic Party is meeting this moment?

[Wes Moore]

It's a hard question because I don't, honestly, I don't focus on it that much. I mean, you know, and I just being, just being totally honest, like I wonder, I remember when I ran for governor, we ran against, there's like 12, there's like 11 other people running for governor. They had, we had statewide elected officials, we had two Obama cabinet secretaries. We have, we had a former head of the dnc. Literally had a former head of the Democratic Party who ran for governor.

[Jon Favreau]

Yeah.

[Wes Moore]

And then me, the guy who'd never run for office before in my life who was now saying, hey, I wanna run for governor. And I ended up getting more individual votes than anyone who'd ever run for governor in the history of the state of Maryland. So I guess kind of my point is that I was never the party's choice before. The party didn't ask me to run. The party didn't come in and say you're the guy who we want to be the next governor of Maryland. The people did. And so I've decided I'm not the best person to give the party advice as to what they should do because I was never the party's choice in the first place. But I do think that what does become really important in this moment is if you're not delivering results for people and if people don't find you to be authentic, they're never going to support you. You know what I mean? Like, the reason that we are doing really nation leading work around young men and boys here in the state of Maryland is not because we lost them as a voting bloc in 2024. And what are we now going to like? Nah, the reason we've been doing this work since day one of our administration is because it was a core part of why I decided to get in this race in the first place. And I think when you're looking at who voted for us and the fact that we've done very well with young men and boys in our elections is because they know it's real and it's authentic. Right? The reason that we, the reason that we, that we focused on having a service year option, making Maryland the first state in this country, that a service, your option for every one of our high school graduates is not because it pulled well. In fact, when I first moved virtually, it didn't pull well at all. But it's because it's authentic and I believe in it. I believe in this time of this political divisiveness and political vitriol, that service will save us. And so I think that the, I don't know, the best advice I guess I can give and again, I don't get my talking points from the party, but the thing that I would suggest that people do is, is be authentic and don't forget why you got in this business in the first place. And if you do that, I think the people will respond because I think they'll see that you care about them, you care about their families, you care about their legacy and that you are doing everything in your power to be able to make sure that that's going to be protected. And I guess like we saw in our campaign, in our race, that the people will reward you for.

[Jon Favreau]

That's good advice. You should be giving more to the party. Governor Westmore, thank you so much for joining Pod Save America. I appreciate it.

[Wes Moore]

Of course, man. Great to talk to you again. Thank you.

[Jon Favreau]

That's our show for today. Dan and I will be back with a new episode on Friday. Bye, everyone. If you want to listen to Pod Save America ad free or get access to our subscriber discord and exclusive podcasts, consider joining our friends of the pod [e-mail] friends or subscribe on Apple Podcasts directly from the Pod Save America feed. Also, be sure to follow Pod Save America on TikTok, Instagram, Twitter and YouTube for full episodes, bonus content and more. And before you hit that next button, you can help boost this episode by leaving us a review and by sharing it with friends and family. Pod Save America is a crooked media production. Our producers are David Toledo Salt, Rose Rubin and Emma Ilik Frank. Our associate producer is Farah Safari. Reid Churlin is our executive editor and Adrian Hill is our executive producer. The show is mixed and edited by Andrew Chadwick. Jordan Kanter is our sound engineer with audio support from Kyle Seglin and Charlotte Landis. Madeline Herringer is our head of news and programming. Matt de Groat is our head of production. Naomi Sengel is our executive assistant. Thanks to our digital team, a lot of Elijah Cohn, Hayley Jones, Ben Hethcote, Molly Lobel, Kiril Palaviv, Kenny Moffatt, and David Toles. Our production staff is proudly unionized with the Writers Guild of America East.

[Jon Lovett]

Hey, I'm journalist Sam Sanders.

[Saeed Jones]

I'm poet Saeed Jones.

[Zach Stafford]

And I'm producer Zack Stafford. And we are the hosts of a podcast called vibe check.

[Wes Moore]

On VibeCheck, we talk about everything news.

[Jon Lovett]

Culture and entertainment and how it all feels.

[Zach Stafford]

That's right, we talk about any and everything on our show, from real life issues like grief to music and movie critiques. And that barely scratches the surface.

[Saeed Jones]

Yes, indeed, and it doesn't stop there. We have got a lot to say, so join our group, chat, come to life, follow and listen to Vibe Check wherever you get your podcasts.

[Jon Favreau]

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