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Roxane Gay on the Myth of Civility
01:06:53
What is civility? Who does it serve? When, if ever, is incivility called for? New York Times bestselling author Roxane Gay joins Alex Wagner to discuss the right's recent calls for political civility and why Roxane believes those calls are based on a fantasy of our politics. The two unpack the political discourse in the wake of Charlie Kirk's assassination and the ongoing government shutdown, talk about Roxane's belief that the "manosphere" has always been with us, and debate whether there's a perfect, polite way to communicate about our differences.
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- [00:00]
Jon Favreau
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- [01:32]
Roxane Gay
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- [02:13]
Alex Wagner
Welcome to Pod Save America. I am Alex Wagner. Charlie Kirk's assassination deepened an already extraordinary political divide. Members of both parties condemned the killing and they mourned Kirk's death regardless of whether they agreed with his politics. But Republicans quickly turned that tragedy into an attack line. They flooded social media and they accused Democrats of celebrating Charlie Kirk's death Even though no elected Democrat actually did that. Vice President J.D. vance urged Americans not just to call out people celebrating Charlie Kirk's death, but to report them to their employers. And Vance capped that off with a plea for civility.
- [02:57]
Jon Favreau
We don't believe in political violence, but we do believe in civility. And there is no civility in the celebration of political assassination.
- [03:05]
Alex Wagner
A call for civility. While masked ICE agents racially profile and detain people in unmarked vans. A call for civility. While the National Guard patrol some of America's most densely populated cities under the guise of fighting crime. A call for civility. After the President of the United States directed 800 or so of his top generals to focus on what he now calls, quote, the war from within. How can we be civil here when the politics are so violent? Writer Roxane Gay has an answer. We can't. She argues that civility in a country where one party is working to erase the rights of anyone who doesn't fit into a narrow and predominantly white male conservative vision of America, that. That is a fantasy. This week we're going to dive into her analysis, the myth of Civility, the government shutdown, feminism in the red pill apocalypse, and a lot more. Here's my conversation with Roxane Gay. First of all, thank you for doing this. It's great to have the. Well, it's great to get some time from you to talk about the state of the world, I guess. I want to start, Professor Gray, Roxanne, with the article that you wrote in the New York Times a few weeks ago about the myth of civility in American politics. Maybe you can start by explaining what civility is in your estimation and why it's a fantasy.
- [04:45]
Roxane Gay
Well, there are unfortunately multiple definitions for civility, but when it's used in sociopolitical discourse, most often it means don't get too excited, don't get too angry, don't be too hurt. This is all an intellectual exercise. Don't step out of line. Don't do what they, you know, what your opposition perceives as harm, and that harm really is oftentimes about their egos. And, you know, don't make me feel complicit in whatever's happening in our world. Don't make me feel like I've done something wrong. Don't make me feel ashamed, as if we have any control over that, which we don't. And it's really unfortunate because it compromises honest and productive conversations, and it's always used as a weapon. Oh, look at this lack of civility. And when you look at the current state of the world, which is such an inadequate phrase, you can see that what is uncivil is ice terrorizing an apartment building in Chicago in the middle of the night and taking people from their beds. Like, that's uncivil. And so talking about it is not uncivil. And I think it's really important for any of us with sanity left to be very clear about that distinction.
- [06:14]
Alex Wagner
When, when you talk about the people who believe in the possibility of civility at this moment, are they sort of, more simply put, just people who don't understand oppression and haven't experienced it firsthand?
- [06:27]
Roxane Gay
For the most part, yes, because most of the people who call for civility happen to be, I don't know if it's coincidence or not, heterosexual, middle or upper middle class, well educated white men. And they oftentimes have some kind of power, whether it's platform or political power, elected office, et cetera. And so for them, you know, it really does offend their delicate sensibilities when you push them out of their comfort zone and force them to confront their inadequacies. They cannot tolerate it. And it's so interesting that the right came up with the phrase, not the phrase, the word snowflakes to represent people who dare to challenge the status quo. There is no bigger set of snowflakes than Republicans in power. And it's really quite interesting to see, like, they really are the ones who are craving safe space. Because when you call for civility in that manner, you are saying, I don't feel safe. And I need you to take it upon yourself to do whatever you have to do to make me feel safe. And, and it's such a level of privilege. It is such a level of privilege.
- [07:41]
Alex Wagner
Yeah. It's like they're so threatened by criticism that they have to take the TV shows off the air. They're so threatened by criticism in the form of the judicial system that they need to shutter the law firms or threaten them with lawsuits themselves. They have to threaten the Wall Street Journal and the New York Times, and they have to excise the language from the history books and the textbooks. And it's all to defend their delicate sensibilities, you know, feeling threatened about both their history, their present and their future. I guess when you talk about incivility, I want to get to the essence of that because you, in the piece in the Times, you say it's the refusal to surrender to hatred. What do you say to people who believe that incivility as a concept is the promotion of violence?
- [08:26]
Roxane Gay
Those are people who are telling us a lot more about themselves than anyone else because they feel that accountability is violence. They feel that truth is violence. And it's, you know, I noticed even in a few of the comments, which were largely very interesting and thoughtful, where some people saying, I can't believe you're calling for violence. And I, I'm not calling for violence, but what I am saying is that you cannot expect people who are dealing with oppression to simply kneel and bow their heads and smile as you oppress them. And when you are facing significant oppression, sometimes violence is the only language that violent people understand. And, you know, again, to bring it back to ice, which is just such a constant presence right now, that's the only language these people understand. They throw women and reporters and children and families and men. They throw people anyone. They just throw them around as if they're rag dolls. So don't talk to me about violence. I, I, I think violence is, is abhorrent. I think it should be a tool of last resort. But, you know, saying that we don't have to be civil is not saying we are going to be violent. It is saying that we are not going to go quietly and we are not going to do nothing in the face of really just pernicious overreach.
- [10:07]
Alex Wagner
Can I use, you mentioned in the piece, you use historical examples of the Freedom riders in the 1960s, and I think so much about nonviolent civil protest as being sort of born in that era. And you write in the piece, all of the protests, all of their protest was civil and nonviolent. Nonviolence didn't mean passivity. It was a strategy intended to reveal the brutal contrast between the tactics of the oppressor and the experiences of the oppressed. Nonviolent civil protest was met with rank incivility, which is to say the hypocritical way in which we presently understand civility and incivility is nothing new. So help me understand it through the lens of this moment where you're saying, don't ask us to be civilization. Do you think that the work of those, of those freedom fighters and those civil rights activists in the 1960s sort of in the gate of civility was the wrong strategy. I just, I guess I'm trying to square what happened before in that context with what you're talking about now.
- [11:10]
Roxane Gay
No, not at all. I think that it's going to take multiple strategies. And many people have said that we could not have Martin Luther King without Malcolm X, and we could not have Malcolm X without Martin Luther King. We need multiple approaches. And throughout the civil rights movement, there have been significant proponents of nonviolence, and they have a point. And for many people, nonviolence does feel like the right way because it isn't passivity. It is an active choice to be nonviolent in the face of violence. It really isn't. Quite frankly, I admire it. I don't necessarily have that capacity, but I admire the people who do. And I also know that there have been many people during the civil rights movement who decided that, you know what? We are going to fight fire with fire. And black gun owners in the south in particular were big advocates of not just going quietly. When lynch mobs tried to come to their homes and kidnap them and do grievous harm to them, they decided, no, you know what? We're going to use our guns because we have them too. And in a perfect world, we would never have to go there. But the right to defend oneself, you know, that is a right. And I think that more people should avail themselves of that right when they need to. And I'm not talking about just going out and buying a gun, but I am saying we do get to fight back. Who we shouldn't have to just bow our heads and suck it up. But I very much admire what nonviolent activists were doing. And in that piece I wrote, because I had recently been to the Civil Rights History Museum and it was just so powerful. I had, you know, it's just a really great museum and really well curated and very, you know, educational, and I mean that in the best possible way. And so ever since then, I've just been thinking so much about what a significant effort it was during the 40s, 50s, 60s, and quite honestly, up until today that, you know, what a great movement and how powerful it has been to see so many different approaches all arcing toward the same goal. And we need multiple approaches. It's not going to be just any one strategy that's going to overcome the. The rise of the second or the third or the fifth rise of fascism in this country and honestly in other places as well. So we just have to be able to have that conversation and say, you know, it's going to take a lot of different strategies and a lot of different minds.
- [14:03]
Alex Wagner
To that end. I mean, the idea of opening the door to incivility, to not be constrained by the notions of civility that are basically thrust upon, you know, dissenters in this present political climate. I wonder how you think about that in the context of the Charlie Kirk assassination. Right. I Mean, it feels like uniformly elected Democratic officials, you know, mourned his Kirk's death, even if they did not celebrate the ideas that he put forward. And it was complicated, right? It was complicated to figure out a way to disagree with the ideas that he stood for and promoted and resolutely stand against murder and assassination. How did you think about those events in the context of, I guess, believing these uncivil times are going to call for and result in uncivil actions?
- [15:08]
Roxane Gay
Well, I thought that it was all very performative on the parts of politicians, and I don't think they care one way or the other about Charlie Kirk or what happened. I think they understood that they had to perform contrition just in case they were hedging their bets. And it's so cynical and frankly, pathetic. But, you know, I'm against the death penalty. The punishment for having odious beliefs is not death. And so what happened there was a travesty, but it would be a travesty for anyone to be killed. Anytime someone loses their life, especially in some misguided attempt to do whatever that killer was trying to do, we have to resist it. I just don't believe politicians when they're offering that resistance because it seems so disingenuous. And the speed with which they came out with those statements, my God. But it is what it is. I accept it for what it is. But I am not going to mourn someone who wouldn't spit to put me out if I was on fire. I just, you know. But I think it's criminal what happened to him. And I also feel like the discourse has gotten so far afield from sanity. Murder is bad. And just. It's just murder is bad. And the fact that we don't even have that common ground as just a people anymore breaks my heart. But murder is not only bad when someone is on stage and is killed by an assassin. Murder is bad when police, you know, kill an unarmed black person or an unarmed person of any race. It's bad when a husband murders his wife because divorce is just too much effort or because he believes he has a right to do so. It's just always bad. And I prefer to talk about that than to be so specific and say, oh, but what about in this instance? No, I'm actually just against it all the time.
- [17:32]
Tommy Vietor
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- [17:37]
Jon Favreau
No.
- [17:37]
Tommy Vietor
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Jon Favreau
Wow. Very specific.
- [17:44]
Tommy Vietor
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- [17:45]
Jon Favreau
Me.
- [17:45]
Roxane Gay
The dead.
- [17:47]
Jon Favreau
Mm. They don't. They don't underestimate either. They just don't.
- [17:50]
Tommy Vietor
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- [19:14]
Alex Wagner
Yeah, and I think that, that, you know, when you talk about it in that framework, it makes total sense, right? That J.D. vance on one hand, memorializing Charlie Kirk can call for civility as he is part of an, an administration that is dragging people onto ice detention centers targeting blue states and cities trying to disappear trans people from society. You know, all these things are incredibly violent things. Violence is very inherent to the Trump administration, but because it, it's, it's affecting those people and not this person. You can call for civility while being remarkably uncivil and explicitly violent. How do you think of the, how do you think they think of that disconnect?
- [19:59]
Roxane Gay
I don't know that they do. I don't think that they care. One of the many things the Trump administration has shown us over the past. Well, it's more than a decade now, off and on, is that they simply shape reality as they go along, and they shape their ideologies to fit whatever they're trying to accomplish. It's all very malleable. It's all very fluid. And that's really what's so scary. They don't bother themselves with reality. They don't trouble themselves with fact. They simply make the world as they want it to be, and they expect the rest of us to go along with it. And then when we point out that there is a grave inconsistency, we're the problem. We're un American or we're uncivil. And I firmly believe that's the most confounding issue that we're facing. Because, you know, Trump, for example, is trying to frame this current government shutdown as a Democrat problem when he has the executive branch, the judicial branch, and the legislative branch. There is no check. There is no balance. It's all Trump all the time. So what do you mean that you are going to lay responsibility at the feet of Democrats? And then what is going on with the Democrats that they are not in front of every single camera they can find and every single microphone they can find, putting the blame for what's happening directly at their feet? The Democrats are being so weak. And they'll say, oh, we're not in power, you're in office, so you have some kind of power.
- [21:51]
Alex Wagner
Well, I think it's interesting that you talk about this in the context of the government shutdown, because I was having a conversation with Dan Pfeiffer yesterday on Pod Save America, and he was saying the Democrats are doing the worst part of their strategy is so flawed, which is to say we're not at fault for this government shutdown. In fact, they should own it and say we had to shut the government down because of what this administration is trying to do to Americans. We were left with no resort because we care about the health and welfare of our citizens. And we can't fund a government that is actively trying to strip them of their rights, you know, strip them of access to health care. So this is a principled fight. It's actually, in some ways, I wonder if that more adheres to your notion of why civility doesn't work, and it's time for uncivil tactics like shutting down the government in the name of principle. I mean, does that square or am I overthinking it?
- [22:48]
Roxane Gay
I don't think you're overthinking it at all. I think, I think it's an impossible situation. And if the Democrats would own it, I would probably reconsider how I'm feeling about the way in which they're proceeding. If they would say, yes, we did what had to be done because we are willing to lead. But they, they don't even seem to have that capacity to own it. They are always hedging and hawing. They're always sort of working from a place of listening to advisors and pundits and polls instead of listening to their instincts and forgetting about whatever three dimensional chess game they think they're playing and just contending with what is actually happening. So I would be very open to seeing them try anything, anything, because I don't purport to have all the answers. It's very easy to sit from my, you know, office and, and say they're being weak, which they are. But, but I also don't know how we proceed given the extent of what we are dealing with right now. But I do know that something different has to happen. I, I, I mean, we just, something has to happen. It's not even about something different. They're not doing anything.
- [24:10]
Alex Wagner
Well, the government is shut down. I mean, in fairness, they did that. Hakeem Jeffries and Chuck Schumer didn't play ball, and we are in a government shutdown. Right. The question is what happens next? Yeah. And I think to your point, it's unclear why they did it. Right. They haven't been saying explicitly why they did it. There is a conversation happening about health care and its affordability, and I think that's inherently in service of Democratic goals, but there's no ownership of the fight. And what I'm hearing from you is like, own the fight because the times demand battle, not murderous battle, no, but new tactics and new strategies.
- [24:49]
Roxane Gay
And, you know, like, people always go, you know, like you said, it's always like people go to violence, but it's like, no, just resist and then stop always being on the defense, Go on the offense. There are so many things that Democratic politicians could and should be talking about that can be laid directly at the feet of Donald Trump and his administration. You don't even have to look for it because they're literally coming in there dropping it at your hand and your feet rather than, so just talk about it, do something. And, you know, the fact that, yes, they, and the bar is in hell. Like, oh, yes, they didn't capitulate to, to stochastic terrorism. Congratulations, Hakeem and Chuck, Good work. I mean that we have to recognize that because that's all there is. I mean, I am so. I'm frustrated with it.
- [25:48]
Alex Wagner
You sound bereft.
- [25:49]
Roxane Gay
I am. I am bereft because right now the Trump administration is like a drunk terrorist in a candy store with a sugar addiction. They are doing everything they've ever wanted. And of course they were. We were all given the blueprint for what they were going to do. And the Democrats haven't even bothered to write a, you know, response or to articulate their own policy platform in that really big public way, which again, why are we not writing a project 2027? And so, yeah, I'm just bereft because where does this end?
- [26:28]
Alex Wagner
Well, you write in the article, I keep wondering when we will reach a cultural breaking point, when finally the Trump administration will go far enough to shove us out of the comforts of our day to day lives. I was again having this conversation about who has been. I mean, there's a number of people in this country who've been shaken out of their day to day lives. Not by choice, right, by force, accepting those individuals. It feels like if there is grassroots rage, organization and indignation, it is not being mirrored in the sort of institutional response to all this, which is law firms capitulating universities saying, okay, what deal can we make for you with you media companies saying we'll take them off the air or we'll hire some different people and we'll change the lens of our focus. How much do you think that institutional civility, if you will, is undermining a real, you know, citizen led uncivility? Or do you think the citizens still have? I mean, how do you see the landscape as it stands in terms of reaching that breaking point?
- [27:36]
Roxane Gay
We are so very far away. But I, you make an important point, which is to say that activism is happening and almost every single community on the ground, grassroots local organizers are truly doing God's work right now. And I am so grateful that that work is happening, that that organizing is happening. Like right now in LA, in Chicago, in D.C. boston, we're seeing some amazing resistance to really terrifying encroachments on people's freedom. And what's weird is that many people don't know about it. And so part of the problem is that it's the media's job to connect what's happening on the ground with the institutions and they're not doing it. And we all know why, I guess, but it's, it's sad. And so I think until more people lose a loved one or a friend or are mistakenly detained or find themselves in such financial precarity that they have only one choice left, which is to resist. You know, until we all sort of start to feel that that boot on our neck, I just don't know that there's going to be anything that's going to make us sort of. And I include myself in that, you know, that are going to make us sort of do something, even though I don't even know where to start other than to look to, as Mr. Rogers said, the helpers. But I. One of the people I follow closely in terms of activism and where to expend our energy is Mariam Kaba, who is an abolitionist, among many other things. And one of the things that she talks about quite a lot is just picking one or two things because you cannot do it all.
- [29:31]
Alex Wagner
Yeah. And.
- [29:32]
Roxane Gay
And so that's the approach I've been trying to take.
- [29:36]
Alex Wagner
What things have you chosen?
- [29:38]
Roxane Gay
I have chosen. I am more than happy to go to a protest. I think that it's useful. I'm actually very shy and quiet. So for me, that where I can just sort of blend in and be there is good. But I also am more than happy to write a check and I'll do whatever is asked of me. But what. What do you. I have that I can contribute? And what a lot of organizers need is money to do that work, lawyers to get them out of jail. So I am trying to show up when and where I can, and it seems to be useful. I was at a protest about four or five weeks ago, and someone said, oh, it's so good to see you here. I just thought, oh, really? I'm just standing here. But okay. So I, you know, sometimes those things do matter. And I do try to do, like, work with mutual aid in LA when I can, where I live half time. And because that's just a community I'm more connected to and that I know more closely. And I'm always writing. It's a small tool, but it is one.
- [30:51]
Alex Wagner
It's a powerful tool that you have. I mean, I. I wonder what you think. I have to ask this in the context of civility, because the calls for civility always mushroom in moments of political protest and, you know, citizens on the street. And when we saw those ICE protests in la, they were deemed, you know, criminal and dangerous, even though, I mean, waymos accepted they weren't. They weren't criminal for the large part or they weren't dangerous. And, And I sort of wonder, like, whether you think there's a little bit of Not a risk. But like, that there needs to be a cautionary note sounded in and around this, because I believe that some of this crackdown on blue cities and states is to actually foment, you know, the violent behavior or criminal behavior, which so far, you know, nobody's taking the bait. But one wonders whether the calls for civility are just a red herring. I mean, I'm saying this rhetorically more than anything else, and really whether Trump's just gunning for, you know, he wants people out in the streets and defacing property because that gives him the excuse to further crack down.
- [32:09]
Roxane Gay
I don't think he needs an excuse, honestly. Yeah, I don't think he cares. But do I think that they are trying to bait people with all of the pomp and circumstance? Of course they are. But both that can be true. And that we have to show up can also be true, because while all of the sort of showmanship is happening, like the thing that they did in Chicago, it's just. It's showmanship. They videotaped the whole thing and then released a sizzle reel online this morning.
- [32:42]
Alex Wagner
Yeah.
- [32:43]
Roxane Gay
And so, yeah, they're clearly doing it for show, but while they're doing it for show, they are taking real people out of their homes. They are splitting up real families. Like, the evil work is happening alongside the show. And to just not respond would not be okay. And fortunately, organizers are brilliant for the most part. And in la, one of the great things that they have done is that if you are staying in a hotel as an ICE person, you're not going to get a good night's sleep. You are going to hear all kinds of stuff. People gather in the parking lots, they play music from their cars really loud. They honk their horns, they shine their lights into all of the hotel windows. That's not violent, but it's also not passive. And so, yeah, sure, you can be a part of ice and you can continue to terrorize this community and kidnap people, but you're not going to be well rested. And I love that someone came up with that because it's so elegant and so simple. And you know that when it happens, those men of ice are. Because it is a vocational program for men. They are probably so irritated. And that brings me a small amount of. I don't think joy is the word, but satisfaction.
- [34:21]
Jon Favreau
Pod Save America is brought to you by CookUnity. Talk about a comfort food or meal you're known for making. None of them. No one is. I'm known. I'm known for making nothing, really, which is why I like Cook Unity so much. Because that's what I do. Instead of making things, I guess I can make Mac and cheese. That's comfort food.
- [34:36]
Roxane Gay
Sure.
- [34:36]
Jon Favreau
Right out of the box.
- [34:37]
Tommy Vietor
I made a Asian noodle dish with ground beef. I just cobbled things together. I had some rice vinegar. I had. I had soy sauce. I had toasted sesame oil. I think so. I think so. I was comforted by it.
- [34:51]
Jon Favreau
I guess anything can be comfort.
- [34:52]
Tommy Vietor
I was comforted by it.
- [34:53]
Jon Favreau
What's on? What's uncomfortable food?
- [34:55]
Tommy Vietor
Just sort of like raw, raw vegetables.
- [34:57]
Roxane Gay
Yeah.
- [34:57]
Jon Favreau
That's not comfort food. Or like sushi? Sushi is not comfort food.
- [35:01]
Roxane Gay
No.
- [35:01]
Jon Favreau
No matter what you're craving, the small batch chef crafted meals from Cook Unity always hit the spot. Explore an ever expanding menu. All tail to your lifestyle, dietary needs and cravings. Get fresh, not frozen, ready to eat meals delivered directly to your door by going to cookunity.com crookedfree or enter code crookedfree before checkout to get Premium Meals for life. I love CookUnity. I've been a subscriber of CookUnity for years now, well before they ever advertised on this podcast. And let's see, I just had a salad last night. I forget what it was called. There's little bits of bacon in it, red wine vinaigrette and a little pasta. There's like a French onion burger that I'm gonna make pretty soon.
- [35:41]
Tommy Vietor
Nice.
- [35:42]
Jon Favreau
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- [36:43]
Doritos Advertiser
These Doritos Golden Sriracha aren't that spicy.
- [36:47]
Roxane Gay
Maybe it's time to turn up the.
- [36:48]
Doritos Advertiser
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- [37:00]
Alex Wagner
I, I, you bring up gender and I want to talk a little bit because you're a feminist about one of the things that fueled Trump's rise, which is the manosphere. That's like red pilled men who blame women for not only their own problems, but society's problems at large. Is the manosphere something new?
- [37:20]
Roxane Gay
No, it isn't. They just have a new way of gathering. The manosphere has always existed. Congress, it's everywhere. And the army.
- [37:39]
Alex Wagner
The White House, like.
- [37:41]
Roxane Gay
Truly, that's just off the top of my head. It has always existed. What is particularly troubling and unique about the current moment is that they have such easy access to one another and that there are no limits because they tend to find themselves on these forums where there is no moderation, where they are openly allowed to talk about really virulent misogyny, which, whatever, but then also violence against women, violence against people they disagree with. They have created their own vernacular to be able to better communicate amongst themselves about their anxieties and their grievances. And so they have more reach than before. And they are really good at finding the disaffected and disillusioned young men or not so young men who have nowhere to put feelings and who don't have the tools to cope with feelings and who don't have the, the personal ability to deal with accountability of, you know, take a shower, brush your teeth, learn to talk to other people and then listen to what is being said to you. Learn to ask questions. You know, so much of this is just basic sort of human 101 that they have decided they should be able to opt out of and still have the woman of their dreams and the career of their dreams. Like, that's not how any of this works. You have to put effort in and it doesn't have to even be that much effort. I see scrubs all the time who are doing just fine. And so like, it just takes a little effort. And it's, I, you know, I'm not, I have some empathy for disillusioned people and disillusioned men because they were told that they were going to have the world as their oyster and their fathers and their grandfathers did. And then here's this generation that isn't getting everything they've ever wanted, even though, really, did anyone ever get it? And if you've been told a certain thing your entire life and then it's not true, of course you're disillusioned. But I also don't think that that disillusionment is an excuse for hating women and for hating just people of color or queer people, etc. They always target people who are more vulnerable than them so that they can feel some sense of toxic masculinity. It's just a terrible brew. But most men are not susceptible to that. Fortunately, they're fine. And the hand wringing that we do in the media all the time about, like, the male loneliness epidemic, I don't know, stop looking at a screen and go outside and talk to someone. If, like, everyone.
- [40:50]
Alex Wagner
Do you think. I mean, yeah, like, I have two boys and I'm constantly thinking, like, oh, God, is the manosphere the natural extension? Like, are they going to get subsumed by it? So we talk about feelings a lot. We get off the screens a lot. I mean, I just think, what is the way that society or women or whoever wants to take the mantle upon themselves? How do you combat the manosphere? It feels. I mean, I don't want to be unduly emphatic about its importance, but it does feel like a real thing, a real development, even if its essence is not new. The construct of this entire online sort of world, subsuming young men and sort of radicalizing them in a conservative direction, seems like something that, like, progressives and Democrats and people who care about empathy need to sort of, like, unpack and maybe figure out how to unwind. And I guess I totally understand that the notion of. Of reconnecting to people and encouraging conversation and community and all of the rest. But I wonder if you think there's anything more explicit that, like, I don't know, our leaders need to do, or we, as members of society need to think about.
- [42:07]
Roxane Gay
Yes and no. Part of me just thinks they need to work this out amongst themselves because men listen to men listen to other men. And so I think men need to take responsibility for their brethren. I really, really do. Because they're actually not going to listen to women for the most part. They're just not. And so I think men need to hold other men accountable. But how much more do we need to do as a society to cater to men and make them feel whole?
- [42:38]
Alex Wagner
I mean, we're living under a Trump presidency party too, apparently. We need to do a lot more.
- [42:42]
Roxane Gay
So much of what is happening is predicated on A lie that women are doing so well that it's gone too far, and let's send them bitches back in the kitchen. You know, it's crazy. It is genuinely not grounded in sanity. And at the same time, I have two brothers, and they're amazing. Or, well, only one is surviving, but. Oh, no, it's okay.
- [43:08]
Alex Wagner
I thought you were gonna say only one was.
- [43:09]
Roxane Gay
No, no, no. They're both. Both amazing. And they are awesome fathers, reasonably good husbands, and amazing brothers. And so I know what men are capable of. And for me, that's the standard, like, just exist, you know? And they're guys. Guys. They. You know, they. They shoot guns. They were both raising only daughters. Oh, well, no one has a son, but he's. He's a very gentle giant. They watch sports. They do, like, all of the things that are typically coded as masculine, but then they're also raising children and doing their share of, like, domestic labor. I take my parents. I credit them with modeling what relationships between people of different genders should look like. And so, yeah, we don't actually have to look that far to find great examples of men. So what do we do about these people who have somehow not been able to actively participate in a healthy society? I don't have the answer, but I just don't think that we need to do, like, some kind of, like, deeply special outreach, because so much of our society is all already dedicated to supporting men and making them feel better.
- [44:32]
Alex Wagner
Well, then let's talk about women, because you are a feminist, and I wonder how you think of that concept in the Trump years, how it's changed and what being a feminist demands.
- [44:44]
Roxane Gay
I mean, you don't have to answer. No, no, it's fine. I don't know that feminism has changed. We're still fighting the same fight we've always fought. I think a lot of our work has become more urgent. You know, right now, we're trying to figure out how do we stop losing ground? How do we get more people on board with recognizing that women are people, that women matter? How do we. You know, when you look at all of the disparities that women continue to face, it's like, how do we continue to remind people of this when we have an administration that's saying, oh, women have it great. No more need for feminism when it's patently untrue? I think our work is just incredibly urgent right now. And what a lot of people don't understand is that our work as feminists is not only about bettering the lives of women and Making sure that women have equity in society. It's about bettering the lives of everyone, regardless of gender. It is about making sure that we have a planet to live on and that everyone deserves equal pay for equal work, that everyone should have bodily autonomy. And that gets so deeply misunderstood and lost. That's why I am able to care about, you know, the very sad and disillusioned young men in the manosphere. It's like, yeah, you want to see me dead? You think I have no value because I'm over the age of 32 or whatever. But I still see you as a human being, and I'm not even a saint. It's not about, like, oh, I'm a good person. No, these are table stakes for just being a person. And.
- [46:40]
Alex Wagner
But that's, you know, can I just say that in these times requires a degree of, like, connection to your own humanity and cultivating empathy, you know, like you giving a shit about the man. The men in the manosphere, at least, you know, sort of objectively requires a certain, you know, a connection to your. The outcomes of your fellow humans or an investment in, you know, your humanity. Do you find that challenging in these times? As you see the sort of disposability with which this administration in particular handles the lives of certain people who aren't and certain, you know, entire regions of the country that are critical or don't agree with them and their worldview?
- [47:24]
Roxane Gay
I find it very challenging. Like, every day it's a. It's a battle. Like, it's a real struggle, because a very big part of me is just like, fuck you. Honestly. Yeah, get it together. If you cannot make that work, given this entire world and how racist and homophobic and. And misogynistic it is, if you cannot make that work even a little bit, I. I just don't know that I can cry for you. But at the same time, I know that if we don't address that, women don't get to live in peace. Women are not safe.
- [47:57]
Alex Wagner
Right.
- [47:58]
Roxane Gay
And so even if it's self interest, we have to care a little bit, otherwise we are all in danger. And I. I don't want anyone to be in danger. And so it is a constant struggle. I try to have empathy. I really do. And I mean, there are some people. I'm just can't work it up. Like, you know, Trump. People who are still like, yeah, that's my guy. When they look at Trump right now.
- [48:26]
Alex Wagner
Okay, then it's hard. The empathy is hard in this.
- [48:30]
Roxane Gay
Yeah. It's impossible. Like, okay, congratulations, I guess, but, like, what am I empathizing with? Why would I? I'm not a saint. There are so many people out there, and God bless them, who are like, yes, I have empathy for my fellow man, even as he points his weapon at me, and we need those people. I'm not one of them. I'm just like, what did you think?
- [48:52]
Alex Wagner
You know, I'm thinking of the moment when Charlie Kirk's widow said she forgave the man who assassinated her husband. Did she, what did you, what did you, what did, what did you think of that?
- [49:05]
Roxane Gay
I think that Erica Kirk was ready for this moment.
- [49:13]
Alex Wagner
Mm.
- [49:15]
Roxane Gay
I think she was ready for the moment, and she knew exactly what to say to further gild the path ahead of her. I don't know if she really forgives. I could not possibly give someone, God forbid, did something to my wife. There would be absolutely no forgiveness ever. So, you know, maybe she is just that connected with Jesus, but I'm not. So I just thought it was shocking. Honestly, I thought it was shocking. I was like, he's not even at the funeral home yet. Like, what?
- [49:58]
Alex Wagner
Well, but, you know, I think there's, like, the person and then there's the gesture. And to me, at least, it was like, God, there's been so much finger pointing. There's been so much rage stewed up around this. There's a president who's taken it as a moment to, you know, go after left wing radicals. I thought it was actually, like, I thought whatever the motivations in the timeline for someone to call for forgiveness, difficult forgiveness in a time when we seem so incapable of forgiving anything, I actually thought it was like a profound moment as, as just the gesture itself, you know, And I, you know, I find a lot of things appalling about what Charlie Kirk was talking about, but just, it's been so long that we've heard that kind of like, just notion that, you know, to be, to be, to offer kindness in a moment of peril is. Anyway, that's, that's just me.
- [50:56]
Roxane Gay
No, I mean, I, I can see why someone would get there, why you could get there. I, I, I don't have that ability or that gene. I just. Because I didn't believe it. I did not believe it for a single second. I don't believe someone who espouses the hatred that Kirk did is capable of forgiveness. I don't even think they believe in forgiveness. And so I just could not get there. But I hope that she has the space to mourn and to care for her young children. And that they have the space to mourn. You know, I think they're those are the truly innocent people in all of this and I would never wish anyone harm. But I don't believe that she has forgiven the man that killed her husband. But you know, and I don't believe that her saying it quelled anything. I think it was just, it was like performance really is the only thing I can think of. But I hope, you know, we'll see. I think that. But you know, like her actions speak very loudly. The fact that she is now the CEO of Turning Point.
- [52:16]
Alex Wagner
Like right.
- [52:17]
Roxane Gay
Oh. So we're gonna pick up where we.
- [52:18]
Alex Wagner
Left off before we head to break. Just a quick bit of housekeeping here. Vote Save America is running a first of its kind pilot program to recruit candidates from Arizona and North Carolina and Texas. We're talking about school board, city council, state legislature races that really shape our communities and they build the bench for long term Democratic power. So even if you're not from one of those states, they will connect you with incredible national partners at the National Democratic Training Committee and run for something. Both the organizations that will get you set up and ready to run anywhere in this great country. Vote Save America will be hosting a live call this Tuesday, October 7th at 5:00pm Pacific, 8:00pm Eastern Time to welcome new people to the program. And the great and inimitable Tommy Vitor will be there along with Vote Save America's partners who are driving this work to break down and explain what it takes to run and how we will support you every single step of the way. If you have even thought about running, if it has even been in your wildest dreams, this is the place to start. So sign up for the call and learn more@votesaveamerica.com Run paid for by votesave america. Learn more@votesaveamerica.Com this ad has not been authorized by any candidate or candidates committee.
- [53:49]
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Jon Favreau
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- [55:04]
Roxane Gay
Are you ready to get spicy?
- [55:06]
Doritos Advertiser
These Doritos Golden Sriracha aren't that spicy.
- [55:10]
Roxane Gay
Sriracha sounds pretty spicy to me.
- [55:14]
Doritos Advertiser
Um, a little spicy, but also tangy and sweet.
- [55:18]
Roxane Gay
Maybe it's time to turn up the.
- [55:20]
Doritos Advertiser
Heat or turn it down. It's time for something that's not too spicy. Try Doritos Golden Sriracha. Spicy but not too spicy.
- [55:35]
Alex Wagner
You are someone that tells the truth about what you think. Unfortunately, no. Well, I think too, you know, it's incred. I think they're obviously people that are going to disagree with you. But it's like you're an incredible writer. You're very compelling. And I think the piece about civility is very provocative. It really engenders a lot of conversation. And that I think is a good thing for society, even if you don't necessarily disagree with what you're writing about. How do you look at the really concerted, really unprecedented effort on the part of this administration to go after public critics, journalists, anybody who's out there speaking in an uncensored way about the ills of this president and his allies?
- [56:28]
Roxane Gay
It's terrifying. I mean, it has like I've been struggling with writer's block for years now and this has not helped because I have a family now and it's not even about what could happen to me, which I don't relish the thought of anything happening to me. It's that other people could be harmed because historically I've gotten death threats for about 10 or 11 years now. I've had to have security at almost every public event that I do. It's really disconcerting to have to be followed around by men who are armed just because I have A few opinions that quite honestly are not particularly radical. It's terrifying and it makes me afraid to write, to really write. Like, I have not written the things that I really want to write because I just am not willing. Like, my risk tolerance as I've gotten older, now that I'm married, like, I have a, you know, my parent, well, my dad, my brother, their kids. Like, I just, My risk tolerance is much lower than it used to be when it was just kind of me. And that's because people have called my parents house, they have sent insane emails, and not just one, but like hundreds sometimes in a single day. And so on the one hand it's like, oh, someone has a lot of free time. But on the other hand, you don't know which one of those people is actually going to show up at your doorstep or at your public event. Like I did an event two days ago and I was just like. And I think about this every time I go on stage. But I was like, oh, gosh, I hope today's not the day. And so.
- [58:17]
Alex Wagner
Wow, really?
- [58:18]
Roxane Gay
Yeah, really. And we had two bodyguards in the wings and it was like, oh, thank God they're there. But what a shame that they're there. And it just, you know, it's like the price for doing this kind of work should not be. I'm afraid for my life and the lives of all the people who have joined me in these public spaces. Like, that's just ridiculous. And I think we should all agree on that. And same with, like I said with Charlie Kirk, like, the price for having odious opinions is not death and it shouldn't be harassment.
- [58:58]
Alex Wagner
But here we are, as we think about kind of the stakes, Right? And I'm just listening to this example you cite about literally being afraid for your life as you speak your opinion publicly. Some people say we are on the brink of authoritarianism, and some people just say we are under the rule of an authoritarian leader. First of all, do you think the distinction makes a difference?
- [59:22]
Roxane Gay
Yes.
- [59:22]
Alex Wagner
And where do you think we are?
- [59:24]
Roxane Gay
Oh, we are definitely under authoritarian rule. My parents are from Port au Prince, Haiti. They fled a dictatorship. I grew up understanding what a dictatorship is and what authoritarianism is. Like many children of immigrants, and since January 6th, my dad has just been shaking his head in disbelief. And over the past several months, like, he, for me, he's the canary in the coal mine. And he is like, oh, wow, we are in a dictatorship. And he is disgusted and understandably so. So I think we're already there. I do not know how Much worse. It's going to get. I don't know when it's going to get better, but I do know that very few dictatorships last very long. And I do try to remember that.
- [60:13]
Alex Wagner
That is, that is our cold comfort. I do wonder, though, as we think about the net effect of these years, beyond the partisan, the kind of chasmic partisan divide and the isolation and the sense of disassociation within one country. I wonder about, like, our ability to, like, even determine the truth at the end of it. All right, like, I'm thinking about. I think there was a moment two weeks ago, it's all a blur, when President Trump was tweeting out about Tylenol causing autism, and you responded saying, how are there no guardrails? You also mentioned some things about Democrats would just focus on the guardrail. I mean, my reaction was cosine. What. And I wonder what you think the net effect of, like, this a period, I guess, new era. I'm not sure where we are here of, of misinformation and calculated disinformation. Like, where that leaves us as a society, as someone who's interested in words and the truth and meaning, someone who's, you know, a professor. And like it is in the industry of teaching people the truth, what happens when the truth becomes so atomized or fungible?
- [61:27]
Roxane Gay
That's a good question. And we're finding out in real time. It's a really dangerous, dangerous time because. And, and, you know, you say, like, are we there yet? We're there for so many reasons. And the dismantling of higher education, trying to get rid of the Department of Education. Education. The way that they are trying to undermine scientific research, the way that they're trying to keep international students out of the country. All of this is part of a plan which, again, we already know about because we have the PDF, they released it and then they did it.
- [62:04]
Alex Wagner
Project 2025.
- [62:05]
Roxane Gay
Imagine, imagine. It was.
- [62:07]
Alex Wagner
It was pre. It was. What is it that you have to read? Required reading.
- [62:11]
Roxane Gay
Yes, it was absolutely like, we, you know, either you did your homework or you didn't. But, you know, we're seeing the way they're trying to erode knowledge. And we have to continually remind ourselves that science is real, facts matter. And we have to do that work to make sure that we are as well informed as possible. And I also believe we have to demand that there should be guardrails. Like, the President is going to build a ballroom that is larger than the East Wing. And there's no, like, congressional approval required. I, I think a lot of us thought that the Constitution was stronger than it is turning out to be. And it's interesting because Republicans oftentimes frame themselves as constitutionalists, and now they're like, we thought it was a suggestion.
- [63:05]
Alex Wagner
Originalist.
- [63:05]
Roxane Gay
Yeah. Yeah, it's bad. Which is not the most eloquent thing I can say, but it is the truest thing I can say. But I also think we have to resist the idea that truth is fungible, that facts are fungible. They're not.
- [63:22]
Alex Wagner
Yeah. Alternative facts are not. There are no alternatives.
- [63:25]
Roxane Gay
No, there really are, by the way.
- [63:26]
Alex Wagner
Just a declaration of principles right there. When Kellyanne Conway said there are alternative facts, we, Everybody should have been listening a little hard.
- [63:33]
Roxane Gay
Murder. Yes.
- [63:35]
Alex Wagner
Here we are.
- [63:35]
Roxane Gay
And that's so interesting about them. They're actually not devious. They're not slick. They're. They're very blunt. Tool. Here is it. Here it is. Let me go to McDonald's. They're just very plain about what they're gonna do.
- [63:52]
Alex Wagner
Well, at risk of sounding like a fan of the strategy, they're also. They don't give a shit.
- [63:59]
Roxane Gay
No.
- [63:59]
Alex Wagner
They just say it's. And they do it. And I think probably there's a lesson in there. As we began this conversation, talking about the hand wringing by some elected Democrats in the context of a shutdown. It's like, you know, Trump has taught the country that you can be very declarative and very explicit.
- [64:19]
Roxane Gay
And I think that's actually my biggest issue with the Democrats. And it's what I'm yearning to see from them. Care less.
- [64:29]
Alex Wagner
Keep caring, but care less about the response.
- [64:32]
Roxane Gay
Make better choices about what you care about. Just do it. Like, it's not admirable, but it's fascinating to see the way that the Trump administration does not care about permission, public opinion. They don't care. Like this. Ridiculous. And I'm writing about it right now. The, the compact that they want universities to sign. Basically, it's sort of like a 10 page bend the knee and let us reshape you. It's completely wild. Every single Democratic norm that has existed has been shattered. And they're like, we are just getting started.
- [65:14]
Alex Wagner
Yeah.
- [65:14]
Roxane Gay
And I don't think that's a way to lead at all. I do not think that we should lower ourselves to what they're doing. But I do think that with whatever they believe, Democratic politicians should care less about what people are going to say or what people are going to think and fight the good fight. And I think we have some really great examples. I think Mamdani in New York is incredibly interesting. I'm always a little suspicious of anyone who wants to run for office, but he has genuinely fresh ideas. Are they going to be realistic? I don't know, but who cares? Like, it's at least trying. And his ideas are like, yes, let's make sure that people can eat. Let's make sure that people have a roof over their head. Why are we objecting to any of this? It's great. And so I would love to just see more politicians take some big swings at things that we all deserve.
- [66:10]
Alex Wagner
And big swings.
- [66:12]
Roxane Gay
They're popular. These ideas are popular.
- [66:16]
Alex Wagner
I'm gonna take hope in the idea that Roxane Gay has found something to celebrate in American political life, which is someone taking a big swing out there that makes me feel good at the.
- [66:29]
Roxane Gay
End of and even aoc like, I think she's brilliant and interesting. She's plain spoken. She doesn't pull punches. Jasmine Crockett I let's also look to the people who are doing really great stuff. And there are in fact, some Democratic leaders who are doing a lovely job, especially under these circumstances.
- [66:50]
Alex Wagner
These are extraordinary circumstances. Well, you know, I applaud you for the sort of courage to be out there and to take the risks and to write eloquently and very compellingly about stuff that's pretty complicated and disheartening. And like I said, I just think the piece you. Well, all of your writing is worth reading, but the most recent one was incredibly provocative and really, like, really made me think. And I'm really appreciative that you could take some time to chat with us all about it. Thanks for your time.
- [67:24]
Roxane Gay
Of course. Thank you for having me, Alex.
- [67:28]
Jon Favreau
If you want to listen to Pod Save America ad free and get access to exclusive podcasts, go to cricket.com friends to subscribe on Supercast, Substack, YouTube or Apple Podcasts. Also, please consider leaving us a review that helps boost this episode and everything we do here at Crooked. Pod Save America is a Crooked Media production. Our producers are David Toledo, Emma Illich Frank and Saul Rubin. Our associate producer is Farah Safari. Austin Fisher is our senior producer. Reed Churlin is our executive editor. Adrian Hill is our head of news and politics. The show is mixed and edited by Andrew Chadwick. Jordan Kantor is our sound engineer, with audio support from Kyle Seglin and Charlotte Landis. Matt de Groat is our head of production. Naomi Sengel is our executive assistant. Thanks to our digital team. Elijah Cohn, Haley Jones, Ben Hefcoat, Mia Kelman, Carol Pelavie David Toles and Ryan Young. Our production staff is proudly unionized with the Writers Guild of America eas.
- [68:29]
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- [68:59]
Roxane Gay
Are you ready to get spicy?
- [69:01]
Doritos Advertiser
These Doritos Golden Sriracha aren't that spicy.
- [69:04]
Roxane Gay
Maybe it's time to turn up the heat.
- [69:07]
Doritos Advertiser
Or turn it down. It's time for something that's not too spicy. Try Doritos Golden Sriracha, spicy but not too spicy.