Pod Save America – "Roxane Gay on the Myth of Civility"

Date: October 5, 2025
Host: Alex Wagner (for Crooked Media/Pod Save America)
Guest: Roxane Gay (writer, professor)

Episode Overview

This episode delves into Roxane Gay's New York Times article, "The Myth of Civility," exploring the shaky ground on which calls for political civility rest in a deeply divided, increasingly authoritarian America. Gay and Wagner discuss the weaponization of civility, reactions to the assassination of Charlie Kirk, the government shutdown, the rise of the manosphere, the contemporary role of feminism, activism, and navigating truth in an era of deliberate misinformation.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Defining and Deconstructing "Civility" in Politics

• Civility as a Weapon
  Roxane Gay points out that in sociopolitical discourse, "civility" typically means not expressing anger or hurt, and not making those in power feel uncomfortable. It's used to avoid accountability:

  "When it's used in sociopolitical discourse...it means: don't get too excited, don't get too angry, don't be too hurt...don't make me feel complicit in whatever's happening in our world."
  — Roxane Gay (04:45)

• Privilege and Calls for Civility
  Those calling for civility often have the most power and privilege, namely white, well-educated men:

  "For the most part, yes, because most of the people who call for civility...happen to be...white men. They cannot tolerate being pushed out of their comfort zone."
  — Roxane Gay (06:26)

• Critique of "Safe Spaces" for the Right
  The right accuses others of being "snowflakes" but, Gay notes, they are themselves seeking safety from criticism:

  "There is no bigger set of snowflakes than Republicans in power...they really are the ones who are craving safe space."
  — Roxane Gay (06:26)

2. Incivility, Violence, and Accountability

• Incivility ≠ Violence
  Gay dismisses the notion that calling out injustice or resisting oppression is inherently violent:

  "They feel that accountability is violence. They feel that truth is violence...saying that we don't have to be civil is not saying we are going to be violent."
  — Roxane Gay (08:25)

• Nonviolent Protest and Its Limits
  Historic examples like the Freedom Riders show that nonviolence was a strategy to expose brutality, not passivity:

  "We could not have Martin Luther King without Malcolm X...We need multiple approaches...Nonviolence does feel like the right way for many, but we do get to fight back."
  — Roxane Gay (11:10)

3. Charlie Kirk Assassination & Political Performance

• Mourning as Performance
  Gay is skeptical of politicians’ "mourning" after Kirk's assassination:

  "It was all very performative on the parts of politicians. I don't think they care one way or the other about Charlie Kirk."
  — Roxane Gay (15:08)

• On the Morality of Murder
  She emphasizes the basic principle:

  "Murder is bad...It's just always bad. And I prefer to talk about that, than to be so specific and say, ‘oh, but what about in this instance?’"
  — Roxane Gay (15:08)

4. Hypocrisy and Violence in American Governance

• Republican Hypocrisy on Civility
  Wagner and Gay discuss ongoing state violence (ICE raids, police) as "inherently uncivil":

  "You can call for civility while being remarkably uncivil and explicitly violent."
  — Alex Wagner (19:14)

• Trump Administration’s Reality Bending

  "They simply shape reality as they go along, and they shape their ideologies to fit whatever they're trying to accomplish."
  — Roxane Gay (19:58)

• Democratic Leadership Lacking Ownership

  "The Democrats are being so weak. And they'll say, 'Oh, we're not in power,' you're in office, so you have some kind of power."
  — Roxane Gay (19:58)
  On the shutdown:
  "If the Democrats would own it, I would probably reconsider how I'm feeling about the way in which they're proceeding. If they would say, yes, we did what had to be done because we are willing to lead."
  — Roxane Gay (22:48)

5. Grassroots Resistance, Institutional Failure

• Activism Exists, but Media Fails to Connect

  "Grassroots local organizers are truly doing God’s work right now. What's weird is that many people don’t know about it. It's the media's job to connect what's happening on the ground with the institutions, and they're not doing it."
  — Roxane Gay (27:35)

• Staying Engaged: Choosing Focus Gay outlines her own activism as attending protests, donating, and mutual aid:

  "I am more than happy to go to a protest...to write a check...to do whatever is asked of me...What a lot of organizers need is money to do that work, lawyers to get them out of jail."
  — Roxane Gay (29:37)

• Protest Tactics without Violence
  Example from LA protests against ICE detentions:

  "If you're staying in a hotel as an ICE person, you're not going to get a good night's sleep...People gather in the parking lots, play music, honk horns...That's not violent, but it's also not passive."
  — Roxane Gay (32:42)

6. Red Pill Manosphere & the Feminist Response

• The “Manosphere” is Not New—Just Digitally Empowered

  "The manosphere has always existed. Congress, it's everywhere...What is particularly troubling...is they have such easy access to one another and there are no limits..."
  — Roxane Gay (37:20)

• Responsibility Falls on Men

  "Men need to take responsibility for their brethren...they're actually not going to listen to women for the most part. They're just not."
  — Roxane Gay (42:07)

• "Male Loneliness Epidemic"

  "The hand wringing that we do in the media all the time about, like, the male loneliness epidemic — I don't know, stop looking at a screen and go outside and talk to someone."
  — Roxane Gay (39:19)

• Feminism in Trump’s America

  "I don't know that feminism has changed. We're still fighting the same fight we've always fought. I think a lot of our work has become more urgent...our work as feminists is not only about bettering the lives of women...it's about bettering the lives of everyone."
  — Roxane Gay (44:44)

7. Empathy, Forgiveness, and Personal Risk

• Empathizing with Opponents: Limits and Dilemmas

  "A very big part of me is just like, fuck you...But at the same time, I know that if we don't address that, women don't get to live in peace."
  — Roxane Gay (47:24)

  On the aftermath of Kirk’s assassination and public forgiveness:

  "I think Erica Kirk was ready for this moment...I don't believe someone who espouses the hatred that Kirk did is capable of forgiveness."
  — Roxane Gay (49:05)

• Threats Faced by Public Critics Gay describes a decade of credible threats, the need for security, and the chilling effect on her writing:

  "I've had to have security at almost every public event...it's terrifying and it makes me afraid to write, to really write."
  — Roxane Gay (56:28)

8. Authoritarianism and Truth in Crisis

• Are We Already Under Authoritarian Rule?
  Drawing from family ties to Haiti, Gay is firm:

  "Oh, we are definitely under authoritarian rule. My parents are from Port au Prince, Haiti. They fled a dictatorship...he is like, oh, wow, we are in a dictatorship."
  — Roxane Gay (59:23)

• Disinformation and the Attack on Truth

  "We're seeing the way they're trying to erode knowledge. And we have to continually remind ourselves that science is real, facts matter..."
  — Roxane Gay (61:27)

  On the Democrats’ need for more directness:

  "I think that's actually my biggest issue with the Democrats. And it's what I'm yearning to see from them. Care less."
  — Roxane Gay (64:18)

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On "Civility" as Cudgel:

  "Civility...is always used as a weapon. Oh, look at this lack of civility."
  (Roxane Gay, 04:45)

• On Protest Tactics:

  "That's not violent, but it's also not passive...you're not going to be well rested."
  (Roxane Gay, 32:42, on disrupting ICE agents with nonviolent but persistent protest)

• On Empathy Fatigue:

  "Every day it's a battle...a very big part of me is just like, fuck you."
  (Roxane Gay, 47:24)

• On Political Performance:

  "It was all very performative...The speed with which they came out with those statements, my God."
  (Roxane Gay, 15:08, regarding reactions to Kirk's death)

• On Authoritarianism:

  "My parents are from Haiti. They fled a dictatorship...he is like, 'oh, wow, we are in a dictatorship.'"
  (Roxane Gay, 59:23)

• On the Future:

  "Very few dictatorships last very long, and I try to remember that."
  (Roxane Gay, 60:12)

Important Timestamps

| Time | Topic/Quote | |-----------|---------------------------------------------------| | 04:45 | Roxane Gay defines "civility" and how it's misused| | 06:26 | Civility as privilege and the “snowflake” critique| | 08:25 | Incivility is not violence; accountability is not violence| | 11:10 | Multiple protest strategies needed: MLK and Malcolm X| | 15:08 | Reaction to Charlie Kirk's assassination and political performance| | 19:58 | Trump admin shapes reality; Democrats' weak response| | 22:48 | Democrats should own shutdown; need new tactics | | 27:35 | Institutional failure to connect with grassroots activism| | 32:42 | LA ICE protest tactics—nonviolent but not passive | | 37:20 | Manosphere's roots, its toxic growth online | | 42:07 | Men must hold other men accountable | | 44:44 | Feminism's enduring and urgent struggle | | 47:24 | Empathy fatigue and necessity for self-preservation| | 56:28 | Chilling effect of threats on public speech, writing| | 59:23 | U.S. already under authoritarian rule, per her father's experience| | 61:27 | Truth under assault: “science is real, facts matter”| | 64:18 | Democrats should be bolder, less fearful of backlash|

Closing Thoughts

Roxane Gay’s analysis cuts through the performative politics of "civility," exposing its use as a shield for those in power and a muzzle for dissent. She advocates for truth, grassroots engagement, more direct (and less defensive) Democratic strategy, and the necessity for diverse resistance tactics, reminding listeners that history’s arc requires active, varied struggle—never passivity in the face of violence and authoritarian drift.

Recommended Next Steps for Listeners:

• Follow grassroots activism in your area
• Support mutual aid and local organizers
• Engage in direct action and/or support those who do
• Demand clearer, bolder messaging from Democratic leaders
• Stay vigilant for ongoing attacks on truth, education, and civil rights

For a transcript of the full episode, email transcripts@crooked.com.