Jon Favreau (2:36)

Welcome to Pod Save America. I'm Jon Favreau.

Jon Lovett (2:38)

I'm Jon Levitt.

Tommy Vietor (2:39)

Tommy Vitor.

Jon Favreau (2:40)

Sorry I lost my voice at CrookedCon chanting for Robert Mueller and the rule of law.

Tommy Vietor (2:44)

You know, I remember we, we all noticed it right before terminally online. We're like, John, you listen to your voice. You're like, I think so.

Jon Favreau (2:50)

Yeah.

Tommy Vietor (2:50)

Sure enough, six more hours of hanging out.

Jon Favreau (2:52)

There it goes. On today's show, Democrats had exactly five days of feeling good between last week's elections. In the news on Sunday that eight senators cut a deal with Republicans to reopen the federal government. We'll get into all the reactions and talk about what's next. We'll also talk about Trump's attempt to deal with the affordability issue the that sunk his party last week. And another flurry of pardons for all his favorite co conspirators and possibly Ghislaine Maxwell. The president was also booed at the Commander's game, which may throw a wrench in his plans to name the new stadium after himself.

Tommy Vietor (3:25)

Dickhead Park.

Jon Favreau (3:26)

Dickhead park, yes.

Jon Lovett (3:27)

Little tiny, Little tiny Penis Arena. Little tiny penis. Little tiny, tiny penis.

Jon Favreau (3:34)

But let's start with the capitulation that should lead to the government reopening this week. On Sunday, the following eight senators cut a deal with Republicans to end the longest shutdown in history. Jeanne Shaheen and Dick Durbin, both of whom are retiring, as well as Maggie Hassan, Tim Kaine, Jackie Rosen, Catherine Cortez Masto, John Fetterman, and independent Angus King, all of whom aren't up for reelection until 2028 or 2030. The deal will fund the government through January 30th. So just a couple months and we can do this all again. It will also reinstate all the furloughed and fired federal workers with with back pay, prevent Trump from firing federal workers in the event of future shutdowns, and fully fund SNAP benefits through the end of 2026. But on the issue, the Democrats made the shutdown about extending Obamacare subsidies to prevent premium hikes on 20 million Americans. The deal only gives Democrats a vote in the Senate on a bill of their choosing sometime in December. The Senate took the first vote to approve the deal Sunday night, and the House will vote on it as soon as they're all back in town. This week, for the first time since the middle of September, the reaction to the deal from Democrats has been mixed. If you define mixed as just about everyone hating it but the senators who cut the deal. Here's Senator Angus King of Maine, one of the defectors offering his take on Morning Joe.

Senator Angus King (4:52)

There were two goals, both of which I support. One was standing up to Donald Trump. The other was getting some resolution on the ACA premium tax credit issue. The problem was the shutdown wasn't accomplishing either goals. And there was practically, well, there was zero likelihood that it was going to. In terms of standing up to Donald Trump, the shutdown actually gave him more power. Exhibit A being what he's done with SNAP under special law, under that big awful bill that they passed last summer, the ICE agents are being paid. Nobody else is. So standing up to Donald Trump didn't work. It actually gave him more power.

Jon Favreau (5:30)

Better things aren't possible. That's really just doing the meme bizarro.

Tommy Vietor (5:35)

John Bolton did not make me like him more.

Jon Favreau (5:38)

There does look a little like John Bolton and think about that stash. As for the people taking the other side of the argument, there's too many to play. But here's just a quick sample from Bernie Sanders, Adam Schiff and Chris Murphy.

Tommy Vietor (5:50)

So I just voted no on the Republican funding bill. I'm outside the Capitol, it's dark and.

Jon Lovett (5:55)

Raining, and that seems all too appropriate for this moment.

Tommy Vietor (5:58)

We owe our constituents better than this.

Senator Angus King (6:02)

We owe a resolution that makes it.

Tommy Vietor (6:04)

Possible for them to afford their health care.

Jon Favreau (6:06)

What the election showed is that the.

Senator Angus King (6:07)

American people want us to stand up to Trumpism, to his war against working.

Jon Favreau (6:13)

Class people, to his authoritarianism. That is what the American people wanted. But tonight, that is not what happened.

Senator Angus King (6:21)

See how tired I am? I've been here all weekend. I've been working throughout the past few weeks to try to prevent this moment. After the elections on Tuesday, it just became absolutely clear. The American people do not want Democrats to be bullied into submission. They want Democrats to fight for their health care. They want Democrats to fight Trump's illegality.

Jon Favreau (6:43)

Ed Markey actually did one from the toilet that we didn't play.

Tommy Vietor (6:46)

When you're mad, you hit him with a walk and talk. When you're happy, you go on with the Joes.

Jon Lovett (6:50)

I love the new Bernie in House style, whatever it is. The video that Bernie and AOC shot together, I like the walk and talk. I like the style.

Tommy Vietor (6:58)

It's like the portrait mode kind of.

Jon Lovett (6:59)

Focus, but there's the. It's not on a phone, it's on a camera.

Tommy Vietor (7:03)

It's a nice camera.

Jon Lovett (7:04)

It's really nice.

Jon Favreau (7:05)

Anyway, we gotta get to some big things to talk about here, guys.

Tommy Vietor (7:07)

I like the camera angles anyway.

Jon Favreau (7:09)

Anything. But before we have to delve in, I guess the first question on a lot of people's minds who've been following this story is, why did they do this and why now? Tommy, you want to kick us off?

Tommy Vietor (7:20)

I mean, I think the fatal flaw in this whole shutdown was the lack of a realistic endgame. And that was always been the case. And I think government shutdowns, historically speaking, have never been great ways to get legislative victories, and it proved to be the case here. And the Senate Democrats, it seemed like their only hope was to get Trump to do an end run around congressional leaders on the Republican side, talk to them directly, maybe negotiate something, because he doesn't like to get blamed for and he likes to be the hero who comes in at the end. And that didn't happen. There was a sliver of hope, but remember Speaker John back in October, seemed like Trump might go sit down with Democrats, but then Johnson and Thune shut it down. And I think then Trump started blaming Republicans for getting rid of the filibuster and calling to get rid of the filibuster and that the bunch of moderates were like, this is over. You know, it's just never going to happen. So I think there are probably some people in the caucus and the Democratic side who never wanted the shutdown fight in the first place. They also wanted to prevent more harm from happening. They knew Republicans were willing to continue to hurt the country and hurt voters in an effort to squeeze them. That included firing people, federal workers in particular, starving SNAP recipients, freezing people who need heating assistance, and. And then terrifying anyone who goes on an airplane. We're also 10 days into ACA open enrollment, so there was a kind of a ticking clock there. So they just caved.

Jon Favreau (8:35)

Lovett, how do you feel?

Jon Lovett (8:38)

So no one has done a better job of explaining their votes than the group of people who voted yes. That's been my great frustration over the last 24 hours. You saw Angus King there. I don't actually even understand. I understand what he's saying on some level, but the goal of standing up to Donald Trump failed. That's why we're no longer standing up to Donald Trump. I really, genuinely can't make sense of the logic of what they've been saying, in part because I actually take them at their word. The Pain of the shutdown is ramping up and they don't see any kind of a concession on exchanges that, that is vanishingly small. And on the ACA subsidies. On the ACA subsidies. And so let's cut our losses. But the argument they're making around this is not just an argument for caving now. It's an argument for never having pursued a shutdown in the first place. Because a lot of what they're describing, the pain of the shutdown, you voted for a shutdown. That's, that's what you did. You decided to pursue a shutdown in the hopes that it would create leverage. I agree, Tommy, that there were moments where it seemed like Trump might concede. But I would say when he was railing against them about the filibuster, when in the White House he talked about being open to some kind of a deal that I'm sure made Thune and Mike Johnson hit their heads. To me, I didn't take that as, oh, this is never going to happen, might still be unlikely. But I don't understand why this deal happened so quickly and right now, especially when Chuck Schumer on Friday and Saturday laid out a last ditch compromise, which is a one year extension of ACA subsidies plus the cr, which seems to me is a final argument you could make to the country about the choice, even if you ultimately cave a few days later.

Jon Favreau (10:35)

Yeah. How, how did you feel about it, Tommy?

Tommy Vietor (10:37)

Like, on one level it is frustrating, but on another level, I get it. Like, we have no leverage, we have no power. I guess, like, again, I do think this is sort of the problem with the strategy. Like, Trump wasn't willing to give on ACA subsidies. And you know, in some ways, like the one year extension is the worst version of this because, you know, you give a political reprieve to all the Republican members of Congress who are up in 2026 and then you fuck them after that. Like, who does that really help? It doesn't help us politically. It doesn't help people in the long run. And so, but you put it right.

Jon Lovett (11:07)

Of course. But you put it forward to let it fail. Right? Because then you've made your final, like.

Tommy Vietor (11:11)

Yeah, I'm saying if you get the deal you put on the table, you're, you're, you're saving your political adversaries from the kind of worst political outcome.

Jon Lovett (11:18)

Right.

Tommy Vietor (11:18)

My point. So, look, I'm with you. Like, I'm, I'm not sure this bodes well for future funding fights either, or the hopes that we will use our leverage I'm confused about what happens in January and what that fight will look like. I get why people are mad. It did seem like we had some wind in our sails after the election. I think that, you know, the shutdown had to end eventually. And I think that, I don't know, that seemed like a bunch of moderates, a bunch of establishment Democrats were like, just kind of wanted this over and they figured it's now or it's later, so let's do it now.

Jon Lovett (11:48)

Yeah.

Jon Favreau (11:48)

I think my biggest beef here is with the timing. Yeah. Because, I mean, to your point about pain, Lovett, like, the real pain actually hadn't started yet. Which is why I think some of these institutionalists who ended up caving, I'm not calling them moderates because it really wasn't. There's plenty of moderates who voted against this thing. It really was more like sort of older institutionalists that ended up going with this thing. But I think the reason they accepted this so far is so federal employees have missed one paycheck. Some have already missed two. They were all, they're all about to miss two. Some are going to soon miss three. Right. The SNAP benefits, they're monthly, so as of November 1st, you know, there was a risk that they wouldn't get the SNAP benefits, but even that hadn't really kicked in. Air Travels has started to become a mess. But it was, it's about to become, it would have, about would have become really bad come Thanksgiving. So the pain was just about to start ratcheting up, which is why, I think why. But now, of course, the argument is the point of getting the, the point of the pain is that that's supposed to give you, that's supposed to put the pressure on the Republicans. And so they didn't really get into the period where the pain really would put pressure on the Republicans. So, like, my, my, my thing is, like, why not, why not tell people that, you know, Trump and Republicans feel so strongly that people's premium should go up that they are willing to ruin Thanksgiving for people, strand all kinds of travelers, make children go hungry, make federal workers miss now two, three paychecks in, like, all this week and next week, and then, like, let people see and think over Thanksgiving how fucked up travel is. And then if Republicans, maybe then they'll get Republicans to cave or to make some concessions on healthcare or we haven't talked about this yet, to just simply change the Senate rules and get rid of the filibuster and open the government that way. Or even, by the way, they could have said, we're going to make an exception on the filibuster for opening the government because they've already made an exception on the filibuster for judicial nominations and a whole host of other bullshit things. The filibuster has so many exceptions in it now. It's like, I don't get this whole thing about, like, oh, they must preserve the filibuster. They could have said, like, just for shutdowns. Right. So you could have done that for a couple weeks in November and then early December if they're still not moving, you know, then you cave.

Jon Lovett (14:22)

Yeah, I think this is the problem. Right. Because everything about what they're saying is we did not want people to experience the pain of a shutdown. And I take them at their word. Right. Tim Kaine represents a lot of federal workers. One thing he said to a reporter was, this is the first time I can sleep at night because I can look Capitol Police officers in the eyes and I don't have to worry about snap. But to me, that was very revealing because a, you've just sent a message to Republicans about January, which is, you may vote for a shutdown, but once the pain starts, you're out. Well, then you're not for a shut. Like, then it's semantics, right? Like whether the government is open or closed, you're trying to stave off the pain of it. The second part of it is, well, I presume you could make an argument to those people and everybody hurt by the shutdown, which is the argument Democrats have been making for more than 30 days, which is why I come back to the way they're talking about. This is not just an argument that I think empowers Trump, but argues against the decision they made over the last and for taking this deal. But argues against what they've done for the last 30 days. Because we've been making an argument to people who may be hurt by this, which is, we don't want people to be hurt by this. We hate that the government is shut down, but we're doing it for the long term benefit of improving our healthcare system and getting people help with the one piece of leverage that we have. The second part about this is King makes the argument there and a bunch of them have, which is that they wanted to stop the layoffs and they wanted to make sure people got paid. They wanted SNAP to go out. Some of this is conceding something, I think pretty big to Trump in a way that is dangerous. The layoffs Trump has done during the shutdown are on hold because they are lawless. Trump signed a law that said people get back pay after a shutdown. The OMB put out a bullshit memo to call that into question. So some of what they're describing as concessions they won are just reaffirming what is already federal law. And if you suggest that Republicans gave you something, you're saying Trump's lawlessness makes Republicans more powerful in Congress, which is what is dangerous about every way in which Democrats have said Trump breaking the law during a shutdown makes a shutdown less likely to be something Democrats would pursue.

Jon Favreau (16:31)

I will say it became pretty clear to me, at least over the last couple weeks that Republicans are never gonna give on the subsidies.

Tommy Vietor (16:41)

Never.

Jon Favreau (16:42)

Just not gonna happen.

Tommy Vietor (16:43)

I think that was a foregone conclusion, at least not in the context of a shutdown. Maybe they'll have a negotiation now, but they were not gonna do it in the context of a shutdown.

Jon Favreau (16:50)

I don't even think now. I mean, Mike Johnson just said, like, this isn't talking points for us. We don't like these subsidies. And Jake Tapper asked him, well, what if there's a bipartisan vote in the Senate and they pass an extension of the subsidies and both parties somehow agree? Which is, you know, leave that being pie in the sky aside for a second. Let's just imagine. And Mike Johnson's like, no, I'm not committing to a vote on that. Even if it's bipartisan, I'm not committing to a vote on that, but I am. I don't think it ever would have passed the House. Trump could have gone one of two ways after the election results. He could have gone towards like, okay, let's find some kind of a health care compromise here to fix it. But instead, he went towards the filibuster thing. And so now Democrats could have held out and said, okay, at some point, Republicans are going to cave on the filibuster. That, I think was a possibility. I don't think they ever would have caved on the. On the health care.

Tommy Vietor (17:45)

I don't either. I don't think there's any chance they're going to cave on the AC subsidies. I don't think it was a wrong fight to pick because it was good messaging and it's important thing that we care about deeply as a party. But I don't think they're ever going to cave. I think there is a chance when this is all resolved, that you see a bipartisan vote in the Senate on something that is a fix that gets thrown over the House. And that puts a really challenging political hot potato in Speaker Johnson's lap. And then we'll see what he does. I don't have a lot of faith in these guys doing the right thing, but we'll see in the interim. What happened here reminds me a lot of Trump's China trade war, which is he resolves lots of problems created by his trade war, but he doesn't fix any of the underlying problems. I think what Democrats would tell you is their goal was never to create pain in the form of starving people on snap. And that's what Trump did, because he is fucking Vlad the Impaler and a sadist and was willing to do the cruelest possible thing. Like, yes, government shutdowns cause pain in, like, the broadest sense of the word, but it's not starving, you know, people who need food assistance or freezing people in, you know, the Northeast who need LIHEAP funding to, like, turn the heat on. And I think, like, that's where they got squishy, because they were like, no, this is actually not what we wanted to do as a part of this, this shutdown. But the Trump administration was like, all right, I'm going to fire everybody. We're going to make this as brutal as possible. And, like, they out crueled us.

Jon Favreau (18:53)

And I will, yes, they did outcruise us. And I will say, like, I had some Democrats in Congress talk to me who, like, not people who voted for the deal, but people who voted against the deal and said that, like, look, constituents were saying to them, not keep fighting in the last couple weeks, but, like, hey, totally was with you on this fight. But, like, I'm having. I'm struggling to make rent right now. I'm not getting another paycheck. I don't know when I'm gonna get paid again. It's really hard, like, worried about the fact that people are going to go hungry without SNAP benefits. Like, they. You can definitely fault them for what they did. And like I said, I think there's a whole bunch of different things they could have done differently and done this a different way. But I don't think it was politics that led them to this because the politics were on their side. I think it was, like, genuine concern for their constituents and the pain. And you can say that that's. That's weak and, like, if you're going to go into a shutdown, maybe steel yourselves a little bit. But I do think that's the reason why.

Jon Lovett (19:49)

Yeah. And on the SNAP front, right, Snap payments should be going out, but eventually that emergency funding would run out. Snap runs out in a shutdown if you go on long enough. And they all went into this with a goal and they like, committed to a goal that they didn't reach. Now, we all talked, I think, like, everybody was like, understood like this was a long shot. I think if you went back and listened to us talking about this, we were conflicted in every direction and open door. It was a. Democrats were in a very difficult position. I think I also, by the way, like, part of this is, I think the way these eight senators, just a few of them actually have talked about this has made matters worse because I do think there's an argument you can make, which is to say the shutdown drew a ton of attention to doubling of healthcare premiums, to the Republican cuts in the big beautiful bill. Democrats played their hand far better than anyone anticipated. They defied political gravity on what a shutdown can achieve. And right as the pain is about to become far worse, they are better to end the shutdown while having won the political argument before. People blame Democrats or the blame could potentially shift to Democrats, whether or not that would happen. The other part of it too is, and this to me, I think is like the best politics of it is this allows 39 Democrats in the Senate and every Democrat save one in the House to oppose the deal and fight the Republicans while doing so. In a world where the government is open and, and basically eight Democrats plus Schumer get to be the villains in the intraparty fight, while everyone else can say, I was fighting, I was fighting, I was fighting.

Jon Favreau (21:17)

Yeah. I do think, like, the way that this played out, which is the news breaks, they take the vote, they send out the defectors to make the case Sunday night. Like, the choreography of all that was just. So that is what I maybe felt the most like, if you're going to do this, go out and talk about. Look, Republicans just, there's, there's no bottom to the cruelty that they're willing to inflict on people. And there's zero, like, none of them ever want to extend the health care subsidies they want. They're in court right now trying to fight to take away food from hungry children right now. Like, they're, they, they don't care that air travel is going to be screwed up for everyone.

Tommy Vietor (21:57)

And so their big accomplishment is slashing Medicaid funding for the, for poor people.

Jon Favreau (22:01)

And that's, that's just the way it is. And so we're not going to do that. We're just not going to Follow them down that path.

Tommy Vietor (22:07)

Always been the balance.

Jon Favreau (22:08)

Now to go back to, like, what you could have done is like, once we got into a shutdown, that was about negotiating over a policy issue, like, it was inevitable that we might get to this point. I thought, like you, they could have started. And this is more of like a Chris Murphy position. This is like JVL made this point today in his newsletter. Like, you could have started the whole thing being like, you control Washington. You have enough votes to fund the government. It's a lawless regime, so we're not going to do it. If you can't fund the government and you need our votes, here's our price. If you don't want to pay it, best of luck. That's the final offer. This is not a negotiation.

Tommy Vietor (22:44)

But that's like, that's a. It's an even more expansive goal. I don't understand that argument because it's an even more expansive goal with a less clear outcome that we're never going to get. Like, what are they going to.

Jon Favreau (22:53)

No, no. The price would have been the health care thing, but it's like, no, that's it. Like, if you want to, if you want our votes, then here's the. You extend the subsidies, and if not, that's it. You found the government. But we're like, we're not. This is your. This is your government. You control it. You have the votes.

Jon Lovett (23:08)

So I think the argument for this is, where that leads is Republicans have to break the filibuster. And once Republicans have broken the filibuster, look, they could have opened the government anytime they wanted. They didn't. Why? Because of the filibuster. That is not. Because they have some great reverence for the operations of the Senate. And, and I don't even think it goes so far as to them worrying about what happens if Democrats ever become empowered again. I think there's a bunch of Senate Republicans who understand that without the filibuster, they are respons. They are. They are holding the line, and they do not want that. And then all of a sudden, they have to break the filibuster in order to reopen the government, which is why I do think you would end up with some sort of, like, fake breaking of it, of course, so they could avoid the responsibility for it. But then Democrats do not own any of this. But at the same time, it means Democrats have kind of given up some power in all these negotiations because power.

Jon Favreau (23:59)

We didn't have is the problem.

Jon Lovett (24:02)

Right. Well, then. Then you get back to what they, what they would call the concessions they got and whether or not those were worth it. And I probably agree with you that you come down on. It's hard to describe what they like. Even, you know, oh, we're going to get a vote on, on health care. It's like, okay, we just had a vote on health care. It's called the one big beautiful bill. They're on record. We already have them on record.

Jon Favreau (24:20)

I will say back to like the Tommy, I think you made this point at the beginning. Like, there is a case for we are where we are right now. Here's why. It's not the end of the world. Like, there's a good argument to be made that we have made in previous pods on this that taking health care off the table by extending the ACA subsidies would have been a political gift to Donald Trump and the Republicans. It wouldn't be an issue in the 26 midterms and voters would either forget Democrats won that fight for them or Republicans could have run ads saying they worked with Democrats to help lower healthcare costs. And now Republicans will have to vote against ACA subsidies in a couple months. And it'll be one of the most salient issues in 2026 in an election that will be about affordability and voters will very clearly know who's on which side. And the anger at Trump, which has been fueled by affordability concerns that brought down his approval rating, that's not going away. The anger at Republicans, which cost them the off year elections, that's not going to go away either. And so like, it sucks that we're here, but I think looking forward, it's not, not the end of the world here.

Tommy Vietor (25:29)

Yeah, no, it's, I get why people are pissed. I'm not happy about it either. I personally just felt like this is a foregone conclusion since this thing started and we'd end up at this place anyway. And I think what we'll be talking about in a year from now, in the 2026 midterms is impossible to predict. And we should not think for one second though that what we were talking about today will be what we were talking about then. We just probably won't.

Jon Lovett (25:50)

I just worry now that we have set ourselves up for January's coming. Yeah, we're going to vote on funding the government again. We have said that. We have said that we were doing this to get the health care funded. We're going to have a vote that will all but surely fail. Then we will have the vote in January where we've just where a group of senators, Democrats have said we can't abide the pain of a shutdown removing any leverage we would have had into that fight. So I think, I guess where I land now is we won this debate in a way that's really impressive and I think we should not be turning a win into a loss. And how we talk about this that we will though Democrats, that's our favorite thing to do. What I worry about is have we, in the way that this came about and in the way that it was put forward, put ourselves in a worse position for the next fight?

Jon Favreau (26:39)

Yeah, well, I think that, I mean again, having a, having a vote in January on ACA subsidies and having it fail and then saying, okay, well this is why we should vote Republicans out of office is the same as like imagine we got a vote in January on raising the minimum wage or anything else that Republicans are going to knock down, you know?

Host/Announcer (27:05)

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Jon Favreau (28:18)

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Ben Shapiro (28:28)

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Jon Favreau (28:39)

So aside from all the rage directed towards the senators who cut the deal. Many Democrats are also quite angry with Chuck Schumer, even though he voted against it. The argument being that as leader, he should have been able to hold the caucus together. He clearly knew about the deal right before we recorded. There was some peace in Axios saying that actually Schumer convinced these senators back in October to hold off on reopening the government at least until November till open enrollment in the elections. And so he didn't, you know, trying to show that Schumer really was against this. Already, though, a growing number of House Democrats have called on Schumer to go, including Ro Khanna, Mike Levin, Seth Moulton, and Mark Pocan. Hakeem Jeffries said he still supports Schumer and there haven't been any calls for him to step down coming from his fellow senators, at least not yet. What do you guys both think about how Schumer handled this and whether he survives?

Tommy Vietor (29:30)

I mean, I think Chuck Schumer is Tim Robinson in the hot dog costume saying, like, we're all trying to figure out who did. Who did this meme. You know, it's like he vote against the bill, sure. But I think he orchestrated it with senators he knew were going to retire who weren't up. And I just. I don't believe this spin for a second. I like big picture. I think Schumer, I think he's lost his fastball. He's not a good communicator. He still doesn't do a good enough job, I think, of passing the torch to senators who are good at communicating and putting them out front. I don't know if he's good at internal politics anymore. Like, I think they hung tough for a shutdown. They didn't do a bad job here. But I don't know, it hasn't gotten us much. I think. I think Democrats have a gerontocracy problem. It was most acutely felt with Joe Biden, but Biden was far from the only reason for that opinion of us as a party. I don't think Chuck Schumer is helping. And I think we need some generational change. And we need, at a time when we have no power and no party leader, people look to congressional leaders more so than normal, and they're not getting great party leadership.

Jon Favreau (30:33)

Yeah.

Jon Lovett (30:34)

So I'm trying to separate out how Schumer managed this specific episode versus the weekend position he was going into it and how that made his job much harder. But obviously that's a big problem, too. So what would you want a leader to do in a moment like this, so he's voting no, but eight of his members did this negotiation. So did you give them tacit permission, but you're afraid to tell the public that, or do you genuinely have no control over what the members of your caucus do now? I think it is likely the former, which means why not just tell the truth? And there's this way in which when Schumer is defensive and under siege and feeling weakened and he doesn't have his sort of flanks covered, that he hides a bit. Right. That's why he doesn't tell us how he voted in the New York mayoral election. And I'm sick of bringing it up. I'm sorry. That is the last time I will bring it up. Probably for at least a day. But then he pulls this move where this deal is done. It is all older or retiring or members who are not up. The rest of the caucus can shit on it. The House can shit on it. He gets to shit on it. But wouldn't we want a Senate leader who can kind of stand behind the decision that they made? And so then you think, well, why is he in this weakened position? Well, there's a whole bunch of calls for Schumer to step aside when they didn't pursue a shutdown fight a few months ago. He doesn't have a lot of, like, enthusiastic support on the left. There's a lot of people who feel like, as to Tommy's point, he's not a great communicator. He hasn't kind of empowered anybody to be the party spokesperson despite him. And so this is, I think, the consequence of having a weak leader, like, I don't know that a different person would have gotten to a different outcome. But maybe if we had a leader who could go out there and just simply just defend this and just speak honestly about it and treat everybody like adults without being so worried about his own position. Like, collectively, we'd be in a kind of better political spot. Yeah.

Jon Favreau (32:36)

Like, I have no idea if he blessed the deal, if he orchestrated it or not. But, like, you don't really need to know that to know that if you're the leader, like, you're supposed to be able to keep the caucus together on something like this. That's okay. That's sort of a test of. Of leadership. And, you know, I don't think he has that kind of support right now. I do think he's lost his fastball and now, like, calling on him to go right. You'd need 24 votes and a candidate for a leader, for a new leader. Right now, you know, we're heading into a midterm cycle. Like, how much does it matter in the next year whether it's Chuck Schumer? First of all, the likelihood that Schumer. That someone out Schumer in 26 before the midterms seems extremely low. It doesn't seem like you're going to get 24 votes in that caucus or that you have someone else who is, like, willing to challenge him. I do think this becomes more of an issue after 26, especially if. For somehow we should take this. Especially if we somehow take the Senate back and need. And then it's the majority leader and not a minority leader, then I definitely don't think we should have Chuck Schumer if 27 rolls around and we somehow have the Senate. Because I do think, like, there could There. There probably was a time when you could be just a really good tactician, good at internal coalition politics and not as great a communicator and still be fine. But I think in, in 2025, like, being a great communicator is a prerequisite for every job in politics, particularly leadership jobs like the President of the United States, the Senate leader, the House leader. Right. Like, I just, I kind of think that's table stakes at this point. Yeah.

Jon Lovett (34:21)

I remember there's like an old adage from when we were all working in the Senate, which was the Senate makes the majority leader look like an idiot and always makes the minority leader look like a genius. That was like an old saying about just the way the Senate works. I would like, I hear that, like, oh, like he's, you know, he's maybe not the best spokesperson, but we don't see what's going on behind the scenes.

Jon Favreau (34:42)

I'm not like, doesn't seem like much is going well.

Tommy Vietor (34:46)

Like with Pelosi.

Jon Lovett (34:47)

Right. Like Pelosi, like, I don't think Pelosi was the best communicator, like, to the public, but clearly behind the scenes she had an extraordinary respect from Democrats across, like, a bunch of political divides, like, including Republicans, Democrats left. Right. Like, she is. Was just. People understood that she had like, a genuine talent for keeping the caucus together and thinking about strategy and getting everybody moving in the same direction. I've never heard.

Jon Favreau (35:08)

She did have an amazing appearance on Morning Joe in the summer of 24.

Jon Lovett (35:12)

Absolutely beautiful.

Tommy Vietor (35:14)

Like, but talk about grip on that caucus.

Jon Lovett (35:17)

But even that, like, even that moment is like a perfect example of someone who understands, like, kind of a certain kind of politics where she said Joe Biden hasn't made up his mind yet. So I think he has. No, he has not. Right. Like there's, there was just that she had that thing and tell me if I'm wrong. Like, have you seen any kind of behind the scenes, in front of the cameras, off the record, anybody?

Jon Favreau (35:35)

Like, I don't think Hakeem Jeffries is the most effective communicator, but he, through this process held the House Democrats together.

Tommy Vietor (35:42)

And also, look, I would just say if you compare Chuck Schumer to Harry Reid, who is not seen as the greatest communicator. In fact, he was quite bad. But he was seen as having an iron grip on the Democrats in the Senate, did a better job of it. Look, I, Chuck Schumer, what I've heard from people is that he's up in 2028, he's not going to run again, but he wants to resign as minority leader. I just think like that's, no, that's how we got into this place. I don't think I, I no longer give a what peop. If someone wants to be in a certain position until the end of their career. Like, are you effective or not? In this moment, I would argue that he is not particularly effective. And I'd love to see a younger generation of people move into leadership and take over leadership roles. I want to see it in the House and I want to see in the Senate because that's all we got.

Jon Favreau (36:22)

And it's not that there aren't great communicators in the Senate Democratic caucus who are like, you know, moving up through the leadership ranks.

Jon Lovett (36:29)

And by the way, like, just on top of that, you think it's so great to hang on, you're about to have a bunch of Democratic candidates run against you across the country. You already have Platinum doing that. You're going to see more.

Jon Favreau (36:40)

It is because Mick Morrow and Abdul in Michigan both said that they wouldn't support him.

Tommy Vietor (36:45)

There's a lot of people who think that the reason the DSCC is coming down in support of certain candidates is because those are the candidates who have said that they'll support Chuck Schumer for leader. Now, I don't know that to be sure, but that is something. There's a lot of churn out there.

Jon Favreau (36:58)

Mark Kelly was asked today if he would support Schumer as leader again and was non committal.

Jon Lovett (37:03)

And by the way, like, just to take the other side of this too, if there are a bunch of Senate Democrats who thought they never should have done the shutdown in the first place, fine. If you had a leader that had a little more confidence at the caucus, maybe they wouldn't have done this at all. Right now, I don't think that's right. But, like, there's just no sense in which you feel like Chuck Schumer has. You just. He's like, where are my people going? So I may leave them.

Jon Favreau (37:24)

Yeah, that's just evidence. All right, let's talk about Trump. Trump's reaction to the shutdown deal was an angry post on Monday morning where he attacked overworked, exhausted air traffic controllers who took time off during the shutdown, threatened to dock their pay, and told them to retire. That should make us all feel, feel safe and sleep well at night. This is because he's the kind of president who feels people's pain, you know, which he also demonstrated when asked about his plans to tackle the number one issue on voters minds. Right now. Let's listen.

Senator Angus King (37:53)

Our energy costs are way down. Our groceries are way down. Everything is way down. And the press doesn't report it. So I don't want to hear about the affordability because right now we're much less. If you look at energy we're getting.

Jon Favreau (38:06)

Don't want to hear about the affordability. I don't want to hear about it.

Jon Lovett (38:09)

That's. Ma', am, Every once in a while, he just gives you a little bit of a gift.

Jon Favreau (38:12)

Amazing. Trump then pivoted from dismissing people's concerns to promising things he probably can't deliver. He's now saying that he'll be using tariff revenue to send a $2,000 check to every middle and lower income American. This appeared to be news to soybean farmer Scott Besant, who told George Stephanopoulos on Sunday morning that he hadn't talked to the President about this and said the tariff revenue could just end up paying for, quote, the, the tax decreases that we are seeing on the President's agenda, which would not in any way be a rebate check. He's basically saying that the, in the big, beautiful bill, the tax cuts, you could say, oh, well, they're being paid for by the tariff revenue.

Jon Lovett (38:50)

He specifically said the taxes. The. No tax on tips.

Jon Favreau (38:54)

Yeah, from the. Yeah, from the bill. It's very weird. Trump said again on Monday in the Oval that he's considering these checks, but he also said in a post that the money left over would be used to pay down the deficit.

Tommy Vietor (39:07)

Can do it all.

Jon Favreau (39:08)

You guys think they'll find a way to make these dividend payments happen? They would have to be passed through Congress. We should, we should say.

Jon Lovett (39:14)

So you just. There's a lot of Americans, There's a lot of us. You're going to mail $2,000 checks to half the country. It's a lot of money.

Jon Favreau (39:25)

600 billion.

Jon Lovett (39:26)

And the revenue from tariffs does not cover that. Nowhere close.

Jon Favreau (39:31)

Projected to raise about 300 billion. So far.

Jon Lovett (39:33)

There's only 120 or 220.

Jon Favreau (39:35)

So far they've raised 100. They're projected 300. It would be 600 billion to do the checks.

Jon Lovett (39:40)

Yeah. And so whatever the number, they end up. Even Bessant admitted this, that the goal of tariffs, by their own logic, tariffs are not meant to raise increasing money. The point is to raise less money as it causes a change in where products are made. So there's no money to do this and pay down the deficit. So that's ridiculous. Now, does that mean they're not going to come up with some cockamamie way to describe some policy in the future as a rebate? Who knows? I will say, like he is, he's, like he's keying into something here, which is that people view the tariffs as being very bad. And he's trying to make the tariffs something that is politically positive. And the way he's thinking about it is, what if we gave the money out? Right. Like, he's, he's, he's trying to come up with some way out of the mess he's created.

Tommy Vietor (40:24)

I just think he's thinking back to Covid and people love the Stimmy checks. They got wildly popular. And he put his signature on those. He'll probably put his face on this one if he does it again. I mean, it's probably not going to happen. Yeah. Congress need to pass a law. There's not enough money, certainly not enough money to, to not means test it and then pay down the debt afterwards. Like, what are we talking about? Also, the Supreme Court could strike down the use of emergency powers to collect tariffs, which would be another 100 billion or so gone. But who knows?

Host/Announcer (40:50)

We'll find out.

Jon Favreau (40:51)

Yeah, I wonder how that would work. Because if the. I mean, who. I think Amy Coney Barrett, during oral arguments was like, the whole rebate process here would be quite a mess because if they strike them down and they have to rebate a bunch.

Tommy Vietor (41:02)

Oh, God, can you imagine?

Jon Favreau (41:03)

Well, they have to give. They have to give back to the businesses, the importers, I guess. Right? Yeah. So unless Trump thinks he's gonna. Then. So there would be no money for this or very much less money for this if Supreme Court strikes it down. Also, a bill like this was introduced last year, I think by Josh Hawley. It went nowhere because Republicans had no appetite to hand out a bunch of checks during a time of inflation.

Tommy Vietor (41:25)

Well, there's still inflation, right? That could lead to more inflation for sure.

Jon Lovett (41:28)

Yeah. To Tony's point too, they are he is trying to find ways to put his name on like you know, they've just cut a trillion dollars in health care but he does this deal with the GLP1 people to have. So you have to go to TrumpRx.com to get your discounted Manjaro and Zepbound. So he's trying to find ways to get his name all over these little.

Jon Favreau (41:45)

These moves and your fertility drug seeking make more Trump.

Jon Lovett (41:48)

Maybe it is I swear over my I will as much as I love Manjaro and I would love a discount, over my dead body will I go to TrumpRx.com over my skinny dead body when I go to TrumpRx.com.

Host/Announcer (42:09)

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Yeah, right. How's that for our resistance joke for you?

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Jon Favreau (44:19)

So checks or no checks? We do know that after last Tuesday, Trump's facing growing criticism from people in his own party over his lack of focus. Welcome. Where have you been? On Sunday, Sean Davis, the co founder of the Federalist, posted quite a Twitter rant that's too long to read in full here. And why would we. But the gist was that Trump should focus less on foreign policy and more on the economy. Quote, republicans right now have no accomplishments, no plans, and no vision. Why on earth would anyone be excited to go vote for them 12 months from now? Davis echoed the concerns being expressed in a flood of press appearances by potential 2028 presidential candidate Marjorie Taylor Greene. And sure enough, just before we recorded this, she tweeted that the president is spending too much time on foreign policy instead of health care. Is Trump welcomed to the White House? A former Al Qaeda leader who is now the president of Syria? Trump responded by saying in the Oval on Monday that MTG is a, quote, nice woman who's, quote, lost her way and has, quote, some kind of an act going.

Tommy Vietor (45:19)

Interesting.

Jon Favreau (45:20)

Do you guys think this backlash could become a real thing? I didn't see that one. Or do you think it's just a momentary flicker?

Tommy Vietor (45:26)

It feels like a flicker to me. Look, we just know that Sean Davis is like, one of those people whose tweets are so mean. You think that man seems genuinely unwell?

Jon Favreau (45:33)

Oh, yeah. I blocked him a long time ago, so I was not aware of this unhinged person.

Tommy Vietor (45:36)

I'd also note that Marjorie Taylor Greene is not wrong. Like, politically speaking, she's absolutely right. Donald Trump is spending too much time flitting around the world thinking he's doing world peace and just, you know, making it up. Look, I do think we all remember the growing backlash around the Epstein files. It went away eventually. These guys all tend to find something to be mad at Democrats about and not Republicans. I think what Sean Davis is saying there is basically a repeat of what we heard around the election, which is Trump has failed to do enough on inflation and affordability to the point where even his own political director was like, yeah, now we're going to focus on affordability. The problem is always going to be, though, that Trump doesn't give a shit about any of this. I mean, he goes to Mar A Lago where millionaires or billionaires tell him that he's great because the stock market is up or the crypto market is up or whatever.

Jon Favreau (46:20)

At the Great Gatsby Party.

Tommy Vietor (46:21)

Yeah. And then they go eat lobster and stone crab with some flappers. Well, do you see the people doing synchronized swimming in the Mar A Lago pool?

Jon Favreau (46:29)

Very nice.

Tommy Vietor (46:30)

So that's the new thing.

Jon Lovett (46:31)

I haven't seen that.

Tommy Vietor (46:32)

So, like, they're all just divorced from the reality of normal voters.

Jon Favreau (46:36)

He was loving the foreign policy stuff.

Tommy Vietor (46:37)

Yeah, the foreign policy stuff gets some headlines, right?

Jon Lovett (46:40)

And money. The guy, money in the bank.

Jon Favreau (46:42)

Did you hear him talk about the Al Qaeda guy? When they were like, what about his background is Al Qaeda? And he's like, he's had a rough background. Rough background? Who among us hasn't had a rough. He basically, we've all had rough background.

Tommy Vietor (46:50)

Look, I should say, like, I support trying to, like, remove sanctions on Syria and trying to bring Al Shara into the fold. Like, I don't think it's a bad policy, but certainly it's not. What, like, your average swing voter gives a shit about.

Jon Favreau (47:03)

I would also say also, not to go all hypocrisy, but, like, just imagine what the right would be saying if Joe Biden, Barack Obama did that.

Jon Lovett (47:13)

That's not even the hypocrisy I thought you were talking about. Like, the short list of people for whom Donald Trump has grace. We'll get to the pardons later. But Argentinian beef farmers and fucking former Al Qaeda. Meanwhile, they're shipping Uber eats drivers to prison in El Salvador. No grace for undocumented people who commit no crimes.

Jon Favreau (47:31)

Zelensky's in the Oval Office and J Events is like, have you said thank you yet, by the way, though?

Jon Lovett (47:36)

It is so. I remember they pulled it out and put it on Fox News because whenever we would talk about Biden negatively, it would make it out. But it was amazing how at the end of his time, Biden started acting more and more like Trump. And now here we are in the Trump administration and he is bitching about how the media isn't covering how good the economy is. And he's one step away from screaming, I'm the guy that did Aukus. It's unbelievable. And so, yeah, like, by the way, like, is this back? Like, is. Could the backlash become real? Like, I think we are in a very real backlash. Yes. Like, to Tommy's point, there's an Epstein cycle and the news moves on, and there's an affordability cycle and the news moves on, but each time he's coming out of these fights a little bit weaker and his approvals a little bit lower. Like, he is in a much worse position at the end of this shutdown. Like, this. This Republican infighting is real. And I actually think it, like, as we head into the midterms, there's an even bigger and deeper existential problem, which is this is going to put together two things. One, the fact that Donald Trump isn't doing enough to address the core reason he was elected. But at the same time, it's, how do Republicans run in a world without Trump? And both of those problems are going to be, like, they're going to be impossible to tease out from each other, which are going to make both of them worse. And so they are headed towards a cataclysm in which they lose, ideally, which they could lose a bunch of seats in the midterms while having no sense of an agenda or kind of defining vision outside of just defending Donald Trump.

Jon Favreau (49:03)

I also think, like, the Epstein files is an attentional issue which if you hold out long enough, hopefully it goes away and it fades from the headlines. And affordability is the big watchword that everyone's talking about. Could fit. Will. Will do the same at some point, but people will still feel that everything is very expensive and be pissed. So you might. You may get back, like, the Sean Davis is in the.

Tommy Vietor (49:23)

I was talking the MAGA for sure, for sure. Who are like stuff.

Jon Favreau (49:26)

And they'll move on and realize that they should still attack Democrats. But people and even MAGA voters are going to be like, what the fuck?

Tommy Vietor (49:32)

Normal people are like, hey, my groceries are so really expensive. And you're hanging out with Al Qaeda guy.

Jon Favreau (49:36)

I'm the guy that brought the stands into the Abraham Accords.

Jon Lovett (49:39)

Have you seen the new presidential Walk of Fame?

Jon Favreau (49:42)

Yeah, it's now gilded. Affordability isn't the only thing the right is fighting about right now. We talked briefly last week about how Tucker Carlson's friendly interview with avowed white supremacist Nick Fuentes caused an uproar among MAGA media types like Ben Shapiro and touched off a big internal fight at the Heritage Foundation. Just in case anyone needs a refresher on Nick Fontes views, here's what he said in a March episode of his own podcast. Quote, jews are running society, women need to shut the fuck up. Blacks need to be imprisoned for the most part, and we would live in paradise. It's that simple. Well, just a week after Kevin Roberts, the president of the Heritage foundation, defended Carlson and hedged about Fuentes, he told staff at an all hands that he made a mistake, quote, period, full stop. He then threw his chief of staff under the bus for good measure. That didn't stop the national Task force to Combat Anti Semitism, some members of which had already resigned from severing ties with Heritage. The disagreement went full bravo on Thursday when Ben Shapiro made an appearance at Megyn Kelly's live show in Jacksonville, just after Tucker Carlson appeared at Kelly's show in White Plains. And Shapiro didn't hold back.

Ben Shapiro (50:47)

What I saw Tucker do was not whitewash his ideas, but try to put bumpers up on the guy. I know Tucker well and I think that was his approach.

Jon Favreau (50:54)

And the way, the way, if you want to put a bumper up on.

Ben Shapiro (50:57)

Nick Fuentes, is it helpful to say you're fucking vile, you're an anti Semite? No, it isn't.

Jon Lovett (51:03)

Yes. That doesn't put up. Yes.

Ben Shapiro (51:04)

No, it isn't.

Jon Lovett (51:05)

If I see somebody breach basic moral values by having on a Nazi, and in my own view, you can take your own view, in my own view, gloss the Nazi, then I'm going to speak out about that. And I'm going to point out that there is a long pattern of him ideologically laundering terrible ideas over the course of the last two years, saying last week that the Venezuelan regime of Nicolas Maduro is actually not that bad because they're being attacked by, in his words, globo homo. Tucker's made the point.

Ben Shapiro (51:35)

I'm not going to be Tucker's defender.

Jon Lovett (51:36)

But he's made the point that Maduro is culturally conservative. Who gives a shit?

Tommy Vietor (51:42)

It's a great conversation. It was great tv.

Jon Lovett (51:45)

It was great.

Tommy Vietor (51:46)

Shout out. Megan Kelly booking that back to back.

Jon Favreau (51:48)

We all watched the Ben one. I saw, I saw. We were all watching the Tucker one.

Jon Lovett (51:52)

We are. We're we're fiends.

Jon Favreau (51:53)

But I like, we deserve that today.

Tommy Vietor (51:54)

Yeah, yeah. This controversy is a, is a grower and a shower at the moment, but.

Jon Favreau (51:58)

It will continue to grow.

Jon Lovett (51:59)

No, the question is, is it circumcised?

Tommy Vietor (52:01)

I, I think we know that that's what, that's the battle. And I would say like the other one's like, okay, again, MAGA elites could stop talking about this. Like, maybe Tucker, because Gaza's not in the news, maybe Ben Shapiro will be, you know, focused on something else. But Nick Fuentes is not going anywhere. Like, his standing is growing. He's getting more followers.

Jon Favreau (52:18)

Tucker said to me, yes, his political.

Tommy Vietor (52:20)

Standing is growing by the day. Nothing is plunging that rise. And like Megyn Kelly was like, I think Tucker's goal was to put bumpers around Fuentes and constrain him. That is not what happened in practice. Like, Nick Fuentes has an audience, but Tucker has a bigger one. And Tucker introduced them to the most sanitized, sand washed version of Nick Fuentes as you could find. And like I see a lot of Fuentes clips and it is not just like dudes chanting Sig Heil on their way to the Unite the Right rally. Listening to this dude. He gets questions from his audience. And these kids will be like, me and all the dudes at my frat house at like, name some sec school listen to you.

Jon Favreau (52:58)

Right?

Tommy Vietor (52:58)

Like that is the audience. Like men under 30. And I think the thing, like, people talk a lot about Fuentes being a racist and an anti Semite and a misogynist. He's also violent. He's a violent person. Here's another quote from his show. There's an occult element at the high levels of society and specifically among Jews. And more than anything else, those people, when we take power, they need to be given the death penalty straight up. They must be absolutely annihilated when we take power. This is God's country. This is Jesus country. This is not the domain of atheists or devil worshipers or perfidious Jews. This is Christ country. End quote. Like that. And this was not said with a smile. He was not kidding. This was dead serious. It's like a violent Nazi.

Jon Favreau (53:39)

And I finally listened to the whole Tucker Fuentes interview and it's like Tucker did there. And then he tried to do it again with Megan, which he keeps trying to make it all about Israel. And his whole thing is like, it's just about like views on Israel and separating, you know, anti Zionism from anti Semitism. Like, it's this Whole thing. And he doesn't even. In two hours with Nick Fuentes doesn't touch any of the stuff you mentioned, Tommy, just then, the stuff that I quoted from March, any of his other views on any of the other stuff. And it's like, why would you not. If, if you're taking Tucker at his word here, why would you not interrogate him on all the other fucking bullshit that he said?

Jon Lovett (54:16)

Yeah, we think because you can't take Tucker on his word here. I just, like, I was really glad I watched the full Ben Shapiro conversation with Megyn Kelly, because Ben is like, excellent in this conversation at kind of taking down Nick Fuentes and making a very logical and methodical argument about why you don't, like, teach the controversy with someone like Nick Fuentes and attack the danger that this idea poses. And the point that he makes is it's not only kind of dangerous to society that I think it undermines the conservative movement, which is. I'm glad he's making that argument. And Megan tries her best to defend her friend Tucker Carlson with this idea of bumpers. I don't really understand what the bumpers are. It's. Is it, is it that she meant.

Host/Announcer (54:56)

Guard rails or something?

Jon Favreau (54:57)

I don't know. I think, I mean, you can see from the clip, but like, I think she was trying to make the point that Tucker Carlson, if he just had Nick Fuentes on and was like, you're an anti Semite, awful, this, that, the other thing and just started yelling at him, that's not going to convince anyone. But it's like that there's a space between that and what Tucker did, which was just a pretty friendly interview where he gently pushed on. Well, you don't believe in collective punishment of people, right? Like that. It was a very.

Jon Lovett (55:24)

But the other, the other part of it is like Tucker's had revisionist historians about the Holocaust and World War II on his show. The point that Ben makes and when he talks to Megyn Kelly is about Tucker Carlson's evolution over the last two years. Well, he spoke at the Republican convention and it was much less than two years ago. Like, Tucker's transformation has been ongoing and he has been a big part of. Of maga, which is why I think it's very good that Ben's doing this. But he also is not, I think, grappling enough with the ways in which this is already inside of the Republican Party. Donald Trump had a meal with Nick Fuentes and Kanye West. Right. Like, this is somebody that has already gotten inside of the gates and that's like to me is what is a harder thing I think for someone like Ben Shapiro to reckon with. But I think at least this is, I think making a clear line that this person should not be included. And by the way, like there is no justification even for doing the harder version of the kind of debate with someone like Nick Fuentes. You either describe it as vile and anti Semitic and Nazism and all the rest or you are treating it as if it is legitimate. Like Kevin Roberts can some days came that's cancellation, some days not whatever he says now I don't know but you cordon that shit off because these people do not believe in he's not in it for a debate to try to win an argument to Tommy's point, he'll go off and say look what I did. I got on Tucker Carlson and got in front of all these people. This is something you must excise like a cancer. This episode is sponsored by BetterHelp. Hey, it's autumn and it's not everyone's favorite season. No, but for some people it is.

Tommy Vietor (57:06)

It's 90 degrees here in LA.

Jon Lovett (57:08)

And for others, maybe the challenge is to find something you like about every season and not see seasons as a period of time that please you or don't please you, as if the universe revolves around you, but you're just a a little moat of consciousness connected to every other in a way you can't really feel, but in your heart you know is true. The point is, Everybody needs therapy. BetterHelp therapists work according to a strict code of conduct and are fully licensed in the US BetterHelp does the initial matching work for you so you can focus on your therapy goals. A short questionnaire helps identify your needs and preferences and their 12 plus years of experience and industry leading match fulfillment rate means they typically get it right the first time. If you aren't happy with your match, switch to a different therapist at any time from our tailored rex. With over 30,000 therapists, BetterHelp is one of the world's largest online therapy platforms, having served over 5 million people globally. And it works with an average rating of 4.9 out of 5 for live session based on over 1.7 million client reviews. Therapies helped me. Therapy's helped Tommy.

Tommy Vietor (58:04)

Damn right.

Jon Lovett (58:05)

It helps anybody who can get it, you know. So get some if you can. And one way to do it betterhelp this month, don't wait to reach out. Whether you're checking on a friend or reaching out to a therapist yourself, BetterHelp makes it easy to take that first step. Our listeners get 10% off their first month@betterhelp.com PSA that's betterhelp.com PSA hey guys.

Ben Shapiro (58:27)

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Jon Favreau (59:00)

All right, we had a few quick legal updates for you on Monday and some good news. The Supreme Court, you don't hear that in the same sentence, often declined the chance to overturn Obergefell versus Hodges, its landmark decision legalizing same sex marriage. The case was brought by a former county clerk in Kentucky turned conservative micro celeb who refused to issue marriage licenses to same sex couples after the supreme court's original decision 10 years ago. The potentially worse news from the court, they will hear a challenge to the Mississippi law that allows counting of mail in ballots received up to five days after Election Day. The court has already taken up a challenge to mail in voting rules in Illinois in a case that could open the door for Trump allies to change all kinds of voting statues. They don't like thoughts on either of these cases.

Jon Lovett (59:46)

I'm glad the court didn't take up Obergefell. I think, like, on the one hand, I do think people were drumming up this fear of this Kim Davis thing because it was always a long shot and like, she's nuts. But there was a coverage that was very like Supreme Court on the verge.

Jon Favreau (60:02)

Of kind of and like, and every time you looked at the coverage, though, there were no real hints that the court wanted to take it up.

Jon Lovett (60:08)

But at the same time, I do think it like, that doesn't mean there aren't several justices who would be willing to overturn Obergefell. And I do think sometimes people don't. People try to sort Amy Coney Barrett into the like, she's right wing and she is. And I think she has a lot of really bad views. But I do think she's more intellectually honest than the rest. And she said like, I worry that if she were to take a case like this, she would overturn it. But one point she made when she was being confirmed is there are a lot of cases we won't take. Right. And I do think it's this strange thing where I'm sure that there are people, I'm sure there are members like Alito and Thomas who are itching for this because they want to overturn it. I think she's someone who's not itching for this because she would have to overturn it.

Jon Favreau (60:52)

Yeah, if we had a court full of Alito and Thomases, I think this would go, but we don't so far.

Tommy Vietor (60:58)

Yeah, I mean, I'm with you. I'm like, I'm glad they didn't try to reopen this case, but, man, I mean, I don't think the right wing groups that are attacking Obergefell are done, you know, and especially if the court changes its makeup at all, they'll be back, I'm sure. I mean, I do think that this, one of the mail in ballot cases that they took up is pretty worrisome because it could be ruled in a way that leads to just a flood of lawsuits that make it harder for people, especially Democrats, to vote. Especially, you know, people in, let's say, Philly, Detroit, Milwaukee and Atlanta. If mail service is slowed and a bunch of mail in ballots get in late and all of a sudden all those people are disenfranchised. You know, like, that's kind of the goal here.

Jon Favreau (61:36)

And the, and the hope is that it's not just those people, rural areas especially would be disenfranchised because mail can be slow there. And the people who would probably be most disadvantaged are members of the military who, you know, are overseas often, and their ballots are often counted after election day. I mean, the whole thing's going to turn on the meaning of the word election day and the idea that voting before election day, but it getting there after election day is something like election day now is before election day. That's what the court's gonna say. Like, it just doesn't, it doesn't make a lot of sense. But this is one that, that the right has been pushing for quite some time.

Jon Lovett (62:11)

Yeah. Also just, it goes into the category of ways in which there could be chaos that bad actors take advantage of when it comes to certification, seating people.

Jon Favreau (62:19)

Et cetera, which, you know, maybe the optimistic case would be, at least they're taking it before and going to decide it well before the, the next set of elections, both in 26 and 28. So that there is, that there isn't that confusion. But we shall see.

Tommy Vietor (62:34)

Just a methodical effort to make it Harder to vote. I mean, endless.

Jon Favreau (62:37)

We also learned Sunday night that Trump has pardoned a number of his election subversion coconspirators, including former White House Chief of staff Mark Meadows, Rudy Giuliani, Sidney Powell, and the fake electors who were involved in part of the scheme. These pardons are either symbolic or preemptive because there were no federal charges against any of these people.

Tommy Vietor (62:56)

Preemptive.

Jon Lovett (62:56)

Preemptive in like, kind of like a rainbow unicorn hope sort of way. And like under this Department of Justice.

Jon Favreau (63:01)

Right. Well, maybe. Maybe the next one.

Jon Lovett (63:02)

Yeah.

Jon Favreau (63:03)

If, you know, and, and the state level action against them right now will not be affected by this because you can't. A president can't pardon you for state crimes.

Jon Lovett (63:11)

Yeah, those are all kind of like. There's a bunch of. Those are like stuck or falling apart, man.

Jon Favreau (63:16)

Ed Martin, the, you know, eagle eyed ed there, the January 6, former January 6 lawyer who's now the weaponization guy, he announced all this on Twitter by saying, leave no MAGA behind.

Tommy Vietor (63:27)

Replied to himself, right? He replied to his own, leave no mega behind.

Jon Favreau (63:30)

Yeah.

Tommy Vietor (63:30)

I mean, I think the takeaway from this set of pardons and the January 6th pardons that happened earlier on is that Trump just remind us over and over again that he cares more about his grudges and his ego and his personal vendettas and his, you know, anger that he lost the 2020 election more than his political standing. Is that just. People probably won't hear about these moves, but they wouldn't be popular. None of this makes any sense. It's also just a classic dictator move. Like, you don't like history. Get that pencil.

Jon Favreau (63:54)

Let's start to rewrite it.

Jon Lovett (63:55)

Right?

Tommy Vietor (63:55)

I mean, you know, hopefully by 2030, we won't be like China, where you can't Google Tiananmen Square.

Jon Favreau (64:00)

It's about history. It's also about the future. It's a signal. Right. Because they don't really, if it doesn't really have teeth because of the reasons we just talked about. It's, hey, if you commit a crime in my name for me, I will take care of you.

Tommy Vietor (64:12)

Which is the real message to anyone considering doing a little federal election fraud that Trump has got you back. The timing is also very weird. You see this Blaze story?

Jon Favreau (64:20)

No.

Tommy Vietor (64:21)

The Blaze is a Glenn Beck's thing. They claim to have figured out who planted the pipe bombs on January.

Jon Favreau (64:27)

Oh, my God.

Tommy Vietor (64:28)

They named a specific person who has not been named by law enforcement based on what they call gait analysis, which is video of you walking fed into some software this is either a big scoop or the most open and shut defamation case in a long, long time. So we're not going to say that person's name. But weird.

Jon Lovett (64:45)

A wild bit of reporting. The gate analysis. I have a strange gain.

Jon Favreau (64:49)

Yeah, I could be tied. I could be tied to something.

Jon Lovett (64:52)

I could be tied to something based on my gate.

Tommy Vietor (64:53)

If you did like a silly walk.

Jon Lovett (64:55)

You got to walk backwards like in a David lynch show.

Jon Favreau (64:59)

Who's next on the pardon list? Potentially Ghislaine Maxwell, Jeffrey Epstein's confidant and co conspirator. A whistleblower has told Democrats on the House Judiciary Committee that Maxwell is going to ask Trump to commute her sentence. The same whistleblower also revealed that Maxwell is receiving, quote, concierge style treatment in the minimum security prison facility that she's been transferred to, including customized meals, after hours, gym time and the permission to play with a puppy who another inmate was training to become a service dog. The whistleblower said that a top prison official complained that he was, quote, sick of having to be Maxwell's bitch. And a letter to Trump on Monday. Jamie Raskin, the ranking Democrat on Judiciary, demanded information about the commutation, including asking Deputy AG Todd Blanch to appear at a public congressional hearing and called on Trump to reject Maxwell's appeal. Meanwhile, Democrat Adelita Grijalva, the Arizona representative elect who Johnson has declined to seat during the shutdown, is finally likely to get sworn in this week, meaning she'll become the 218th signature and the last one needed on Thomas Massie's discharge petition, which would force the House to vote on making the Epstein files public. So no health care subsidies, but maybe yes on the Epstein file. Also, do you think Democrats should make a big deal out of the concierge style prison treatment for Ghislaine Maxwell?

Tommy Vietor (66:16)

Yes. Yes. I read in preparation for this, I think it was in the Guardian an excerpt of a woman named Virginia Giuffre's book, She's an Epstein victim who died by suicide earlier this year. She writes about how she was recruited by Ghislaine Maxwell when she worked at Mar a Lago when she was 16. The first massage she was forced to give Jeffrey Epstein was with Maxwell in the room, who was like massaging with her as part of the grooming process. Then they assaulted her, the first of many times. Then they started trafficking her out to their friends, including Prince Andrew. Like Ghislaine Maxwell is just as much a villain as Jeffrey Epstein. She is not a lesser like, she's a disgusting Human being. She's vile. And the idea that, like, this woman is getting sweetheart treatment, getting to play with a puppy while in prison on the way to a commutation is insane.

Jon Favreau (67:09)

And for what other reason than the one that we're all. The one reason that everyone we've been thinking.

Jon Lovett (67:13)

They've never explained it. They've never bothered to explain it. They're not getting questions about it anymore. I presume they'll get some questions about this now. They transfer her to a nicer place without justification. Now apparently, she gets a puppy. Elizabeth Holmes is staring down at the same food every single night. She looks across the fucking mess hall or whatever, and there's Ghislaine Maxwell with pierogies or whatever. And it's like, unbelievable.

Tommy Vietor (67:38)

It's shocking.

Jon Favreau (67:38)

Americans just being thrown in detention by ice for days at a time without being able to call their families, who didn't do anything completely innocent. But Ghislaine Maxwell's taken care of it also.

Tommy Vietor (67:49)

Just like commuting her seems like the most damaging political thing you could possibly do if I know Trump.

Jon Lovett (67:56)

Or second most politically damaging thing that would happen first. Whatever the fuck she would say if that doesn't happen.

Tommy Vietor (68:01)

Yeah, but, like, I don't know. She would have said it by now. Who knows? I.

Jon Favreau (68:03)

It.

Tommy Vietor (68:04)

I don't get it. I don't get it.

Jon Favreau (68:06)

I don't either. But maybe, maybe when the Epstein files are finally released, when the discharge petition happens, we'll. We'll find out. One other news item you may have missed. On Sunday, Trump became the first sitting president since Jimmy Carter to attend a regular season NFL game. And he did it in high style, complete with an Air Force One flyover of the Washington Commanders Stadium and a live swearing in of new service members during halftime. But the crowd wasn't exactly thrilled with Trump's appearance. Here's what it sounded like. I am seeing your name.

Jon Lovett (68:40)

You said.

Jon Favreau (68:43)

You can see in the photos that someone right below Trump's box is giving him a double bird solid. So what do you guys think?

Jon Lovett (68:51)

Maybe they're from Philly.

Tommy Vietor (68:51)

I think they're saying you.

Jon Favreau (68:53)

Yeah, that's right. That's what they're saying.

Tommy Vietor (68:54)

I like that. They're trying to use a military swearing in to prevent getting booed. And everyone there was like, uh, no.

Jon Favreau (69:00)

We see through this one just a stadium full of federal workers whose city has been militarized by the president. Yeah, they absolutely hate him.

Tommy Vietor (69:06)

I mean, like, there's a lot of this that I find very annoying with the hypocrisy makes me insane. For years, Republicans told athletes to stick to sports. Remember LeBron James was told to shut up and dribble. Stop bringing political messages into sports. They Trump yelled at players for kneeling every single Sunday. By the way, players who were are paid to be on the field and earned the right to be there. And now Trump just shows up at every sporting event. He makes it about himself. And then in 2013, Obama said the Washington Redskins changed their name. Trump tweeted the following President should not be telling the Washington Redskins to change their name. Our country has far bigger problems. Focus on them, not nonsense.

Jon Favreau (69:45)

So that's Unless that name is the new Trump Stadium.

Tommy Vietor (69:48)

Yeah, the Commander's stadium.

Jon Favreau (69:49)

What did you guys think about that story that ESPN reported that the Trump people have approached the team's ownership about naming the stadium after him? The team didn't comment, but Caroline Levitt didn't deny it, saying it would surely be a beautiful name.

Jon Lovett (70:01)

We're just like, so through the fucking looking glass, like what? Like, what is there left to say? Like, we're like Trump pardoning people that tried to overthrow the election is like a 24 hour story. The president is trying to name football stadiums after himself and everyone's like, well, it sounds like a good idea to me. I'm sure the team, given that Trump threatened the team if they didn't change the name. I'm sure everyone has to treat him with kid gloves and welcome him, be excited for him to come, humor him on whatever ridiculous cockamamie proposals he's talking about. Like, heard this new patio is beautiful, Mr. President, that kind of thing. And it's all just embarrassing and pathetic. But like there's just too many of these at this point.

Jon Favreau (70:46)

Like, do people going to put his face on the flag? Is that the next.

Tommy Vietor (70:50)

I can see that. I think it's a currency talk, right?

Jon Favreau (70:52)

Yeah, I did. I was going to say the currency, but that actually, yeah, some, some that's out there. Jackass in Congress was like, yeah, let's put him on a new $200 bill or something.

Jon Lovett (71:00)

This is again, that's one thing the filibuster can stop. So that's good.

Tommy Vietor (71:04)

I just also, I always go back to the Shane Gillis at the ESPYs speech. Trump does not know ball. He has no idea what he's talking about. He was listening to the play by play right before he came in because he did like 10 minutes in the booth. He says it's going to be a very important couple of plays. It was second and seven. Then he Goes, we'll see what happens. Which is what he always says about everything. Then he's like, this is a very important play, don't you think? The commanders were down 22 points. He said, the Commanders are a very good team. No, they absolutely suck. They're 3 and 7 and their quarterback had this disgrace. Disgusting elbow bent the wrong way. Injury last week because they left him in. In garbage time of a game when they were getting destroyed. Like they're half. Like their receivers are out. Like their cornerbacks are. The Commanders fucking suck. He's like, oh, it's a very important game. Very good team. No, absolutely not. Also, all the Lions fans out there should be ashamed at Amon. Ross St. Brown doing the stupid trump dance, looking like a goober. Then he got punched in the face by a linebacker. D.N.

Jon Favreau (72:01)

Maybe a couple plays later, he's just.

Tommy Vietor (72:03)

Directing directly at Oscar Fisher fan. And I like the Lions and I'm a big Dan Campbell fan and I'm in. Ross St. Brown's an awesome receiver, but that was dorky and lame. So anyway, I, I stay at our Sports Don.

Jon Favreau (72:17)

It is so funny that like, it's more obvious to like sports fans when he does it here, but it is what he does with just about everything. You know, it's like literally every conversation he has, he knows how to get through it by just being like, yeah, it's unbelievable. It's great. People are saying it's amazing. It's amazing.

Tommy Vietor (72:31)

Running back has ball. We'll see what happens. Oh, incisive.

Jon Favreau (72:36)

All right, last thing before we go. A huge thank you to all of you who came to Crooked Con. What a time. Attendees, speakers, sponsors, volunteers. It was a wild success. I'm so like blown away by like our team put it together. We just, we just showed up and talked a lot and yapped. But the, the team at Crooked just did a fucking incredible job.

Tommy Vietor (72:57)

Yeah. Come be a producer on a podcast where we sit in the studio and talk and also pull off a 2000 person event where we change the venue 45 days out, go shout out Sophie. And everybody on the team here just did an unbelievable job.

Jon Favreau (73:09)

Also, like, I don't know what other, what other big conference you could find Andy Bashir and Hassan Piker at the same. It was just like the, the mix of people that we had there, the diversity of views of backgrounds in the Atlantic and it was. Don't get me started. Don't get me started.

Jon Lovett (73:27)

It was.

Jon Favreau (73:28)

Yeah, it was just like, it was so great to be in person with people who like, we've been on each other's podcasts. We've been talking to each other online, sometimes fighting online for, like, the last several years. And then you meet these people in person for the first time. You're like, oh, I feel like I know you, of course. But now we get to actually hang out. It was wonderful.

Jon Lovett (73:47)

And I'm sure Jessica Tarlov is getting shit for taking a picture with Hasan back at Fox News hq.

Jon Favreau (73:52)

But I did ask her. I was like, how many segments do you think Jesse's gonna put up that picture when you go back to work?

Tommy Vietor (73:58)

Jesse did, like, 10 minutes on our. We programmed his whole show Friday night.

Jon Favreau (74:03)

It was based on our panels.

Jon Lovett (74:04)

Yeah, like, we talked about doing Crooked Con years ago. Like, it's something that we've been thinking about for a really long time, and I just feel really, like, proud of the team that we got to the place where we could put on something so big. Like, we've all been to conferences. I'll just be honest. And, like, I never really thought that much about what it takes to put them on. You know, you show up, you get your little sandwich box, you know, you think you badge, and you will show up. You make your little jokes, trump bad, whatever, and then. And then.

Jon Favreau (74:28)

But.

Jon Lovett (74:28)

But, like, it was an extraordinary, like, Herculean task to put this together. And had it been half the size and gone less well, we would have called it a success. And this was a huge undertaking that went so well. And I do think it really is proof of concept and the need for something like CrookedCon. A big gathering space for the big pro democracy and progressive coalition. And we will keep doing it. We can have room for more people next year.

Jon Favreau (74:55)

Big announcement, everyone. Everyone gets a. Everyone gets, like, a day off. And then we start playing. Yeah. Yeah.

Jon Lovett (75:02)

You're like. It's like. It's like. It's like it's December 26th.

Tommy Vietor (75:04)

Elves take the day.

Jon Lovett (75:06)

Get a good night's sleep. Austin. Crooked Con 2026. Planning starts tomorrow, bitches.

Jon Favreau (75:11)

It's in January.

Tommy Vietor (75:13)

There was some of the coverage.

Jon Favreau (75:14)

Sophie's crying somewhere. Yeah, she definitely is. There was some of the coverage.

Tommy Vietor (75:17)

It was like, did. Did the Democrats solve their problems and actually create a big tent?

Jon Lovett (75:21)

Of course not.

Tommy Vietor (75:22)

I was never, like, on the table.

Jon Favreau (75:23)

But not the goal.

Tommy Vietor (75:25)

I can't overstate how important and valuable it is to just have people meet together and face to face as human beings. It really does matter. Republicans do it all the time. They have cpac. They have all sorts of events and conferences. They have CPAC in other countries where they trade notes with, you know, Americans. And I think this was really just fun and valuable.

Jon Favreau (75:42)

Well, if you couldn't make it and you want to hear all the conversations and all the other fun stuff that happened at Cricket con, go to crookedcon.com we'll be posting a lot of content there and we're gonna be posting some select conversations in this feed and on YouTube right now. As you're listening to this, if you're in the pod save America YouTube feed, there is one episode so far that has two outstanding panels. There's my conversation with Sky Perryman and Norm Eisen about taking legal action against the administration. And then if you listen to that same episode, the latter half of the episode is Tommy's conversation with the top strategists for Zoran Mamdani, Mikey Sherrill and Abigail Spanberger. Both of those went out Sunday. There's more coming soon. Sign up@crookedcon.com for all the details on our next Crooked Con coming to you in 2026. That's our show for today. Dan and I will be back with a new show on Friday. Talk to everybody then.

Host/Announcer (76:36)

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Jon Favreau (76:49)

We do here at Crooked.

Host/Announcer (76:50)

Pod Save America is a Crooked Media production. Our producers are David Toledo, Emma Illich Frank and Saul Rubin. Our associate producer is Farah Safari. Austin Fisher is our senior producer. Reed Churlin is our executive editor. Adrian Hill is our head of news and politics. The show is mixed and edited by Andrew Chapter Chadwick Jordan Kanter is our sound engineer, with audio support from Kyle Seglin and Charlotte Landis. Matt de Groat is our head of production. Naomi Sengle is our executive assistant. Thanks to our digital team, Elijah Cohn, Hayley Jones, Ben Hethcoat, Mia Kelman, Kiril Pelaviev, David Toles and Ryan Young. Our production staff is proudly unionized with the Writers Guild of America eas.

Jon Lovett (77:37)

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Tommy Vietor (78:13)

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