Taxing Cory Booker's Patience

Summary

Pod Save America – "Taxing Cory Booker's Patience"

Date: April 5, 2026
Hosts: Jon Lovett, Tommy Vietor
Guest: Senator Cory Booker

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Overview

This episode features an in-depth, lively, and occasionally contentious conversation between Tommy Vietor and Senator Cory Booker. The focus is on Booker’s bold tax proposal—which would dramatically raise the standard deduction—while also delving into urgent current events: the U.S. war in Iran, the turmoil at the Justice Department, and the fraught debate over Israel, Gaza, AIPAC, and the fracturing American political consensus. Throughout, Booker blends personal candor, policy wonkery, and moral argument, wrestling with the broader challenge of restoring faith in American governance.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. The State of the Justice Department under Trump

• Confirmation shake-up: Trump ousts Attorney General Pam Bondi, replacing her with Deputy AG Todd Blanch.
• Booker’s Reaction (06:00):
  • "They should rename this to the Department of Injustice."
  • Booker urges focus on the department’s weaponization against political opponents and the abandonment of traditional legal norms:
    • "They’re trashing the Constitution, investigating the Fed chair, investigating senators and congresspeople... They moved out FBI agents who are focused on our national security, our voting security and more to do immigration enforcement."
  • Booker warns of systematic threats: "As long as they’re submitting to Donald Trump’s will and direction, we have a very cancerous problem..."

2. Senate Abdication & Executive Overreach in the War with Iran

• Trump’s address on Iran (09:56):
  • Booker underscores the fait accompli and lack of congressional oversight:
    • "Remember, this is a Congress that is utterly practicing some advanced form of yoga where they're bending over backwards to supplicate themselves and do Donald Trump's will." (12:19)
  • Critique of Trump’s justifications for war and spending:
    • "He's making pronouncements last night that he's just gonna walk away ... [while saying] we can't afford Medicare and Medicaid... The man that cut a trillion dollars out of Medicaid... yet he comes up with our resources, our treasure, to go to this war." (11:20)
• On Congressional Response (13:30):
  • Booker highlights forcing War Powers Resolution votes.
  • Booker to his Democratic colleagues: "We shouldn't be doing business as usual... We need to start fighting back because his standard now ... any president at any time could spend 40, $50 billion and go to war with any country." (13:28)
• Supplemental Funding Debate (14:33):
  • Booker: "I would see it [a war supplemental] exactly as ... rewarding a president who unilaterally declared war, which is contrary to the Constitution." (14:51)

3. Israel, Gaza, and the Politics of AIPAC

• Democratic rift: Discussion pivots to the American Israel Public Affairs Committee (AIPAC) and the generational/moral divide within the Democratic Party regarding Israel’s conduct in Gaza.
• Booker’s formulation of justice and security (21:12):
  • "We will never be able to achieve justice and independence for Palestinians without Israeli security. And there'll never be Israeli security until there's justice and independence for Palestinians."
• Pressed on Netanyahu and 'war criminal' label (22:42):
  • Booker: "Benjamin Netanyahu is a horrible person who enabled October 7th and has failed to take accountability... He has within his own administration people that are committing atrocities right now in the West Bank."
  • Booker calls for the end of the conflict and for holding Netanyahu accountable, but resists simple political tests or slogans.
• On generational and discursive divides (25:44):
  • Booker reflects: "We see things in terms of absolutes that don't give us any space to have conversation or some kind of constructive pathway out of the hardened tribalism..."

4. Political Discourse, Tribalism, and Social Media

• Internet polarization:
  • Booker discusses the ways adversaries fuel division through social media, making productive engagement across lines of difference ever harder.
  • "The biggest threat to our democracy... is our inability to talk to each other, find common ground, to work through our most difficult solutions... In-group sanctions are so bad it debilitates even the Democratic Party from coming together around common views." (29:56)

5. Booker’s Approach to Political Engagement

• Invited to "difficult spaces" (31:32):
  • Booker on being asked to appear on controversial outlets or with polarizing figures:
    • "First rule of mental health: You do not have to attend every argument you're invited to. Pick and choose..."
  • He makes a point of seeking dialogue with opponents—including Republican colleagues—if it serves constructive ends, but draws lines around participating in bad-faith spaces.
  • Memorable anecdote: Booker recalls partnering with arch-conservative Sen. Inhofe on child welfare legislation, describing the surprising power of building "uncommon coalitions to create uncommon results." (34:40)
  • "If everybody in your coalition agrees with you on everything, then your coalition is not big enough."

6. Gun Violence, Indifference & American Decline

• On real causes of gun violence (41:57):
  • Booker: "Mass shootings galvanize people's attention, but the majority... are killed by suicide. And [others] are being killed in more quotidian mayhem that doesn't get as much attention or empathy..."
• Booker’s frustration at society's indifference:
  • Moving memory of attempting to save a neighborhood victim: "I had never felt this level of anger before as I sat there and tried to wipe this kid's blood off my hands... the obscenity of indifference towards the constant death of people in my community that didn't even make the newspapers anymore." (45:14)
• Links the decline in social mobility and the "collapse of the deal" (FDR-era economic security) to structural inequality and policymaking failures.

7. Booker’s “Keeping Your Pay Act” Tax Proposal

• Overview:
  • Raise the standard deduction to $75,000 for income tax, effectively zeroing out income tax for most Americans.
  • Pay-fors include higher top marginal tax rates, increased corporate taxes, closing loopholes like carried interest, significantly expanding the Earned Income Tax Credit (EITC) and Child Tax Credit, and ending PAC money—including issue PACs—in politics.
• Debate highlights:
  • Tommy Vietor challenges: Does this signal Democrats are now an anti-tax party for the middle class, while the GOP is for the rich? "If you believe the majority of Americans shouldn't be paying income tax... doesn't this undermine the collective social compact of everyone pitching in?" (50:43)
  • Booker’s rationale:
    • "Poor people are paying a lot more than wealthy people when it comes to most federal taxes... We're just now talking about income tax..." (51:44)
    • "We have tolerated in America the top tax level, grifting off of the rest because they pay an effective tax rate lower than a teacher or a firefighter..." (53:24)
    • "If you go out in the streets right now with our little calculator and ask people, it'd be wildly popular... It's a massive boost to the people that live in neighborhoods like the one I live in." (52:18)
    • On philosophical divides: "Why are you the tyranny of the or? I am the liberation of the and." (65:23)
  • On government and patriotism:
    • "What real patriotism is, is a quiet devotion to this country. And you show that by your devotion to your fellow woman and man, by your neighbor... We need to revive that sense of patriotism where we are all in." (69:02)
• Booker proposes a “suite” of big, bold ideas:
  • Deliver immediate, material benefits
  • End influence of billionaire PACs (including AIPAC)
  • Reform campaign finance and ethics
  • Tackle gun violence, corporate concentration, and more
  • "If we had five big ideas that we ran on... in the first three months do ... everybody feels a real change in their lives." (73:03)
• Booker's vision:
  • “No more damn elections where one person gets 49.7 and the other person gets 49.3. We need a wave election. We need a generational renewal. We need people to begin to believe again that they have people in office.” (75:31)

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

| Timestamp | Speaker | Quote | |-----------|--------------------------|-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------| | 06:00 | Cory Booker | "They should rename this to the Department of Injustice." | | 12:19 | Cory Booker | "Congress is utterly practicing some advanced form of yoga where they're bending over backwards to supplicate themselves…" | | 11:20 | Cory Booker | "He's making pronouncements last night that he's just gonna walk away... we can't afford Medicare and Medicaid…" | | 21:12 | Cory Booker | "We will never be able to achieve justice and independence for Palestinians without Israeli security..." | | 25:44 | Cory Booker | "We see things in terms of absolutes that don't give us any space to have conversation or some kind of constructive pathway…" | | 29:56 | Cory Booker | "...our inability to talk to each other, find common ground...in-group sanctions are so bad it debilitates even the Democratic Party…"| | 34:40 | Cory Booker | "If everybody in your coalition agrees with you on everything, then your coalition is not big enough." | | 53:24 | Cory Booker | "We have tolerated in America the top tax level, grifting off of the rest..." | | 65:23 | Cory Booker | "Why are you the tyranny of the or? I am the liberation of the and." | | 69:02 | Cory Booker | "What real patriotism is, is a quiet devotion to this country...by your devotion to your fellow woman and man, by your neighbor."| | 75:31 | Cory Booker | "We need a wave election. We need a generational renewal. We need people to begin to believe again that they have people in office."|

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Important Segment Timestamps

• [05:52] – Reaction to AG shakeup and critique of Justice Department
• [09:56 – 17:27] – On war in Iran, congressional abdication, and Trump’s overreach
• [20:30] – Israel, Gaza, AIPAC, and Democratic splits
• [25:44 – 37:50] – Navigating polarization, coalitions, and moral dialogue
• [41:57] – Gun violence, indifference, and the unraveling American "deal"
• [50:09 – 75:31] – Deep dive: Booker’s “no federal income tax under $75K” proposal; tax philosophy, Democratic identity, collective funding, and the "big idea vacancy" in U.S. politics

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Tone & Character

• Booker: Earnest, morally urgent, comfortable with complexity but committed to big action. He oscillates between detailed policy explanations and evocative rhetoric meant to stir idealism—"We are a nation of abundance... why are we thinking so narrowly?"
• Vietor: Sharp, pointed, pragmatic. Repeatedly pushes Booker on the unintended consequences of Democratic messaging on taxes and the challenge of preserving faith in collective problem-solving.

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For Listeners Who Haven't Heard the Episode

• Senator Booker makes a forceful case for dramatic change, centered on materially improving lives, rooting out moneyed corruption, and restoring the collective ambitions of American democracy. The conversation is at once philosophical and practical, personal and political, blunt and hopeful. While his biggest tax idea sparks tough questioning, Booker is given space to argue for why "big, bold" solutions—and a Democratic Party ready to deliver them—are essential to breaking through America’s current malaise.

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(Advertisements, promotional intros/outros, and sponsor reads have been omitted from this summary.)

Transcript

[Jon Lovett]

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[Tommy Vietor]

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[Jon Lovett]

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[Tommy Vietor]

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[Senator Cory Booker]

But that's weird.

[Tommy Vietor]

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[Carvana Advertiser]

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[Senator Cory Booker]

Unbelievable.

[Carvana Advertiser]

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[Senator Cory Booker]

Love ya.

[Tommy Vietor]

So good you'll want to leave a voicemail about it. Sell your car today on pickup fees may apply. Hey, everybody. Welcome to Pod Save America. I'm Jon Lovett. I just wrapped conversation with Senator Cory Booker. We talked for about an hour. They only gave us 30, but I pushed it longer because we were actually getting into some really interesting stuff. We talked about the war in Iran. We talked about aipac and support for Israel. We also spent a lot of time on his tax proposal. His big idea to raise the standard deduction to $75,000, which would provide a lot of tax relief for middle class families. But it would also mean most Americans don't pay income tax. And what it means to have a Democratic party that is advocating against taxes for the middle class, while Republicans are advocating against taxes for the wealthy and what it says about our politics. I really liked this conversation with Cory Booker. I'm really glad he gave us the time. And I think you'll like it too. So take a listen. Senator Cory Booker, welcome back to the pod.

[Senator Cory Booker]

It's really great to be back on.

[Tommy Vietor]

So before we started, we were just talking about this. You recently got married? I'm getting married in a couple months. You have an age gap. Any challenges in marrying someone younger than you?

[Senator Cory Booker]

Well, younger and cooler than me.

[Tommy Vietor]

I'm sure that sort of goes without saying. I've talked to you before.

[Senator Cory Booker]

Yes. Much, much so. No, I think, you know, every marriage is unique. Every relationship is unique. But from the second I met her, she, I always say that sort of like the wizard of Oz. My life was in black and white. I didn't realize it. And then sudd. Suddenly it just got to be Technicolor.

[Tommy Vietor]

But any, any like references? Oh, we gotta get references. She's in the room.

[Senator Cory Booker]

By the room. Yeah, we could pull her. We could pull her.

[Tommy Vietor]

Is there any references he doesn't get to you?

[Senator Cory Booker]

Yeah, yeah. I think it's music. Yeah, music. Oh, I remember on, at our wedding there was a song that. And now I'm gonna embarrass myself. Cause you're asked what the song is. But everybody rushed to the dance floor and started dancing.

[Tommy Vietor]

Mr. Nice Guy.

[Senator Cory Booker]

Yeah, I, I just hadn't, I just didn't know the song and it was just so weird.

[Tommy Vietor]

And you're like, play Camp Town races. Yeah, something more, Something jig too.

[Senator Cory Booker]

Yes. I, I, I, I do get jiggy with it, but that's a different, that's a different generation too. Yeah, I think, yeah, it's my corny dad jokes, but yeah, that's a universal problem in my life. My, my staff allows me one, one dad joke a day.

[Tommy Vietor]

Yeah. I feel like you were old when you were young.

[Senator Cory Booker]

I, I have been told that I am an older soul. Like I was a boring friend. I don't drink. You know, I was always like the designated driver and. Yeah. So I think I was always the adult in the room.

[Tommy Vietor]

Yeah. Interesting, interesting. I wonder if that'll change. Wonder if I'll have an immature phase where you're sort of unmanageable at some point.

[Senator Cory Booker]

I think that maybe towards the very end, who knows. We see this with Republican senators when they get ready to retire, all of a sudden they become constructively cantankerous. I will tell you though, I'm psyched to hear this news because it really is life's greatest blessing and the most important choice I think you make in your life in terms of your own happiness and joy. And I think that you are gonna find a deeper and richer life as a married man.

[Tommy Vietor]

I hope so. I think that's true. So we are recording this on Thursday afternoon, shortly after Fox reported and Trump confirmed that Pam Bondi is out as Attorney general. Speaking of relationships that didn't work out, replacing her with Deputy AG Todd Blanch in the interim. What is your reaction to the news?

[Senator Cory Booker]

I mean, this is an agency. They renamed the Department of Defense to the Department of War. They should rename this to the Department of Injustice.

[Tommy Vietor]

Got him.

[Senator Cory Booker]

It is an agency that is doing such destructive things to our well being and our safety. What I mean by that is they're trashing the Constitution, investigating the Fed chair, investigating senators and congresspeople. They're appro moving mergers where they used to give a lot more substantive analysis. Now they're letting this corporate, mass corporate concentration. They've moved out FBI agents who are focused on our national security, our voting security and more to do immigration enforcement. It's just an agency that has been doing really horrific things. And so who's at the head of it? The question is, are we ever going to see Donald Trump put somebody in place that understands that that's not his personal group of lawyers to pursue his vendettas and agendas and instead to actually purs justice. And I don't think we'll get that ever out of this president.

[Tommy Vietor]

It creates a tension. I know you're on the Judiciary Committee, so this will come before your committee in that having someone as incompetent as say, Kristi Noem in charge of that agency reveals something about the policies. Right. And if what Trump wants is a more competent, less in your face, bombastic and kind of ridiculous figure as Pam Bondi, doesn't that almost help him achieve his ends of politicizing the department?

[Senator Cory Booker]

I'm not sure who knows who is going to be up front us. For me, this is one of the darker, more dangerous corners of the Trump administration that often doesn't get the kind of attention it should. I know People who have been careerists that have left that office when they start saying, we're going to not investigate the kind of anti Muslim, anti Semitic, anti attacks on minority. No, we're going to investigate attacks on Christianity and attacks on Christians. We're going to investigate bigotry against white people. The kind of things that they're doing from that department that undermine a lot of the urgencies we have, including foreign entities trying to undermine our local elections. It's just a very, very dangerous thing. And the characteristics of who's there, as long as they're submitting to Donald Trump's will and direction, we have a very cancerous problem that is going to affect Americans more than they realize.

[Tommy Vietor]

Do any of your Republican colleagues share any of these concerns? Is this confirmation process gonna be any kind of opportunity for a look at the ways in which the department has behaved in this way?

[Senator Cory Booker]

Look, I was pleasantly surprised to see, like Tom Tellis, for example, go after Kristi Noem telling the truth. I just don't know if that's gonna be the case for whomever he puts up. I just don't know the name yet. There has been seemed to be little appetite for checking and balancing and providing accountability and oversight to the Department of Justice. Remember, this is not just Pambodani's realm. It's also Cash Patel. There are a number of people serving in agencies underneath the Attorney General that are doing really, really bad things. The pardon attorney, for example, is there. And here's a president that has been just wholesale pardoning people who pay him or pay his friends, and then turn around, as we've seen in some cases, with some of the biggest fraudsters, and then invest in his companies or help him advance his crypto schemes. So this is. And they've gotten rid of all the safeguards, inspector generals and the like. So I, again, this is a, a changing around the, the desk chairs on a, on a, on a ship that is sinking, hopefully. But I do not expect any kind of real change as long as people are going to continue to give up their patriotism for their personal loyalty to Donald Trump.

[Tommy Vietor]

So last night, Trump addressed the country on Iran. There were a lot of varying stories of what he was going to use the time to do. He ended up not doing very much at all to reiterate the policy, which is the war is over and we're continuing to fight the war. What was your reaction to this speech and what do you view as sort of your job in the Senate to try to check what Trump is doing

[Senator Cory Booker]

more than a Month into the biggest military buildup since the war in Afghanistan. This unilaterally declared war by Donald Trump. And now he's coming to the American people. The first time he has actually made statements. Now, he's made tons of statements, but he's contradicted himself multiple times about why we got in there. And he's changed the story multiple times from unconditional surrender, all the things he wanted as an off ramp, he continues to change them. Now he's in crisis. He's broken what Colin Powell would say, the Pottery Barn rule. If you break it, you buy it or you fix it. But yet now he's saying even the straight of Hormuz, which I was the but for clause. But for him doing this, we would not be in the worst global oil shock ever. He's making pronouncements last night that he's just gonna walk away.

[Tommy Vietor]

Yeah, I broke it, you fix it.

[Senator Cory Booker]

Yeah, yeah, exactly.

[Tommy Vietor]

England.

[Senator Cory Booker]

And so you add to that the cost to American people, American lives lost, hundreds and hundreds of people, soldiers injured, tens of billions of dollars, and then he has the flagrant, morally bankrupt statement of saying, oh, we can't afford Medicare and Medicaid. The state. This is his speech last night, that I'm spending tens of billions of dollars, but we can't afford affordable childcare in America, which other competitive nations have realized. We have a national urgency to provide the best for our children, to provide healthcare for our people. He's saying we can't afford that. The man that cut a trillion dollars out of Medicaid, and yet he comes up with our resources, our treasure, to go to this war. So what I get very upset about in the Senate is, number one, all of his enablers who know this is wrong, who would have never allowed any president to go this far into a war without having an open hearing. Remember, this is a Congress that is utterly practicing some advanced form of yoga where they're bending over backwards to supplicate themselves and do Donald Trump's will. They do not want open hearings. They do not want to check and balance him, ask questions. No accountability, no oversight. And those enablers, to me, and this is enablers in the Justice Department, enablers in Congress, all the people who are enabling this man to do what he is doing. And the harms he's doing offend me worse than even Donald Trump does. And so what should the Senate be doing? Number one, we shouldn't be doing business as usual. And Democrats in the Senate, and this is why I'm happy to have joined with A small group of Democratic senators should do everything we can, every lever we can, to force them to focus on the outrages of this war that's wildly unpopular with the American public. And so what we're doing right now is forcing World Powers Resolution votes. It's one of the privileged votes that an individual senator can force to the Senate floor. And we're trying to do these with regularity, not to let these guys in the Senate just continue to pretend like there's not this major military operation that is a sink for American blood and treasure right now and force them to have this conversation. But it has to be matched by growing outrage in the public. And I'm seeing a lot more of that. But this is a president that needs to be checked and balanced. And since Republicans in Congress won't do it, leaders, and we all are the leaders we are looking for need to start fighting back. Because his standard now that he's creating in America, think about this standard now, any president at any time could spend 40, $50 billion and go to war with any country. And for a month not even come before the American people tell you why. And by the way, when we finish with Iran, he has told us, I want to take Cuba. He has told us that, hey, maybe I will take Greenland as well. This is a president, if he's not checked, is setting, number one, a new standard that is dangerous and unconstitutional and against what the founders said. But even worse than that, is capable and liable of doing anything unless he's held to account.

[Tommy Vietor]

So is there any way to view if there is some kind of a supplemental. There's been talk of a $200 billion supplemental for the war in Iran. Is there any argument that that would be anything other than retroactive approval for the conflict?

[Senator Cory Booker]

I would see it exactly as that. I would say see it as, and again, rewarding a president who unilaterally declared war, which is contrary to the Constitution. I do not think. And they're going to try to pitch this as this. How could you vote against America having the pick your weapon system?

[Tommy Vietor]

You're replenishing the weapons and so on.

[Senator Cory Booker]

Yeah, replenishing the weapons and so on. And so for, for Donald Trump to say two to three weeks, which I think is. I do not see it ending in two or three weeks, but maybe they end combat operations there. It doesn't mean that the fallout of that is going to be. Is going to end. It doesn't mean that he will have any way secured fissile material for a nuclear weapon. It doesn't mean he will have achieved regime, regime change. Which he said with a more brutal regime, it doesn't mean they're going to stop killing their own citizens. Like he said, horrifically that he said he was going to stop. None of his long term goals will have been achieved. And now we're going to just say that's fine, let's put more money into the military to cover for the tab you rang up. And this is why I think Congress is just dangerously broken right now. If that's, if that's what, if that's the exercise we're about to do or if they try to do that somehow through reconciliation.

[Tommy Vietor]

I actually was confused about can they do it the reconciliation or would they need the pay for. Is like, like technically, will, will the supplemental be a 60 vote vote or do you think they can figure out a way to make it part of a supplemental?

[Senator Cory Booker]

I again, this is a, this is a Congress and a president that will change the rules. What rule on that? They're redistricting in the middle of a term. What rules are they respecting?

[Tommy Vietor]

This is why so far they have so far right respected the parliamentarian. They've respected that distinction between the 50 vote threshold on budget bills and 60 votes and everything else. I mean, so far they have.

[Senator Cory Booker]

So far they have. So far they have. But there wasn't a raid on the Capitol until there was. There wasn't a president that did this kind of war effort in our entire history unilaterally until he did. If there's anything that you and I should be confident of is that Donald Trump and his enabling Republicans are going to do things that have not been done before to further undermine our democracy and frankly, the will and the interests of the American people.

[Tommy Vietor]

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[Tommy Vietor]

So as you've been debating this war in Iran, part of it has been the US Relationship with Israel. There has been a real turn against aipac, AIPAC in terms of what it does to fund Democrats, also the ways in which it runs sort of ads in an underhanded way to attack candidates it doesn't like. More broadly, support for Israel has been dropping among Democrats. Given Israel's conduct of the war in Gaza. What do you say to people, especially young people, who believe Israel has committed a genocide in Gaza, that Benjamin Netanyahu is a war criminal and that if Democrats can't say that plainly, that tells them that Democrats don't share their moral values?

[Senator Cory Booker]

Well, my focus should be for everybody in that region is ending what has been this horrific decades of conflict in that region that has taken lives in both places and pitting this group, us versus them. There's a simple reality, I keep telling people over and over again we will never be able to achieve justice and independence for Palestinians without Israeli security. And there'll never be Israeli security until there's justice and independence for Palestinians. And so the politics of this should not drive us as much as the moral urgency which is to bring this conflict to an end. And it's a conflict that unfortunately because of Netanyahu, who is in the same category as Trump, but worse. And what's going on not just in Gaza right now, but what's going on in the west bank, which is why I'm leading Democrats on trying to sanction people who are committing these atrocities in the west bank is we have to be clear that in that region we have a decades long conflict and we, America, should be playing a positive role into bringing it to an end.

[Tommy Vietor]

I've heard you give a version of this answer before and you've been pressed on this and say you don't want to call Benjamin Netanyahu, say, a war criminal. What happens if you do? What changes by just saying I believe Benjamin Netanyahu is a war criminal and that signals what our sort of moral parameters are for the kind of leadership in Israel we view as acceptable.

[Senator Cory Booker]

This is not a political test for me. Benjamin Netanyahu is a horrible person who enabled October 7th and has failed to take accountability Remember, he knew about the Qataris funding this horrific terrorist organization, Hamas. He knew about that. He allowed that funding to continue, has failed in that sense. He has within his own administration, people that are committing atrocities right now in the west bank, as we've seen over these last few weeks, have no problem calling him out and saying that he should be held accountable for any crimes that he's been commit that he's committed to my focus and has been consistently before. October 7th is trying to be a force as a member of the Foreign Relations Committee to do everything that I can to bring this enduring conflict to an end. He's got an election coming up this year and I hope the people of Israel not only vote him out, but then jail him because he's obviously has crimes right now that he's being investigated for. But there's still a problem in that region and we still need to bring it for to a conclusion. And I will continue to try to be like I was there on October 7th. I will continue to try to be someone who finds a way, in every way possible, leveraging my position on the Foreign Relations Committee as a US Senator to end the suffering and the needless dying and really the injustice within that region.

[Tommy Vietor]

You know, I'm a Jewish person. I've struggled with how to talk about this and I find that the. But for me, the way I prefer to then talk about it is just to lay out that struggle in a longer form in a podcast or sort of in conversation. But we live in a social media age and people are genuinely shocked and outraged by Israel's conduct of the war. And there's a lot of young people who didn't grow up with the kind of pro Israel mindset. With Israel as this democracy as a beacon, in a way, a land of autocracies, they just have seen it as an aggressor. And it's led to a real kind of sentiment in which Zionism itself as a term has become a slur.

[Senator Cory Booker]

And

[Tommy Vietor]

at the same time, I find that there are people that want to defend Israel and accuse people of antisemitism simply for being so outraged by Israel's conduct of the war. And I just wonder how, as someone, you know, you talk about a lot of sort of these intersecting values in the book, like have we lost the ability to really kind of talk about this as a society in a way that's productive? Because I see a lot of people talking past each other. But there is an Israel filled with millions of people there. There are Palestinians that deserve a right to self Determination, but we seem mired in, I think, sometimes language and anger about it.

[Senator Cory Booker]

That's a really thoughtful analysis and I think it's right spot on. And I think it's indicative of a larger problem where we see things in terms of absolutes that don't give us any space to have conversation or some kind of constructive pathway out of the hardened tribalism that exists not just in this region, but, but in our politics here in America where we're just yelling at each other and not giving any space whatsoever to find that common ground. The reality is crises like that and others around the planet right now and on the Foreign Relations Committee, I'm dealing with other hotspots on the globe. If you cannot have dialogue, if you cannot imagine that the person who feels fundamentally different on this issue, that they still have some shared humanity, where maybe if I, and I and I write about this in my book around the abject outrage in the differences between Frederick Douglass and Abraham Lincoln. Abraham Lincoln wasn't an avowed abolitionist. Frederick Douglass was. And here were two men that had very moral differences, deeply moral issues. When Frederick Douglass would fight the president because the president wasn't fighting for what was happening to captured African Americans. There was a much different treatment if you were captured by the Confederates and you were black versus if you were a white soldier. And the hardened differences. And yet they found ways to sit down, not to yell at each other, but to cobble together the kind of coalition needed to end the nightmare that they were in. And so, yeah, I see when it comes to Israel and the Palestinian people and their cause for justice in that region, I hear people often more concerned with being right and labels that are

[Carvana Advertiser]

being used

[Senator Cory Booker]

or use the same words I'm using or you yourself are evil, as opposed to saying there is misery and suffering in that region and perhaps we can find ways to work to end it during that crisis. My office and most senators have staffs that are better than them. We were using the way we were trying to position ourselves as people that could have conversations with Palestinian leaders, conversations with Israeli leaders, because I said our moral urgency is to stop people dying. And we found ways that perhaps we would not have been able to, to get sick Gazan children out because we could have communications with people in both sides of the conflict to get American doctors, many of them Muslim themselves, in to help people. And yet we would bump into walls of people who on both sides were infuriated and had certain litmus tests on both sides of this issue that often would direct their ire towards me. And so again, this is a generationally long conflict in the Middle East. My biggest fears is the conflicts that are growing here at home. And what I mean by that is when I go into SCIFS classified hearing briefings, I see, and this is open information, but I see our adversaries who have warehouses full of people who just go on to our social media and try to whip up the conflicts that we have between us, including this one. One of my friends was just showing me bot analysis of where the origins of these people who come in and try to throw matches on anything they can to get more hate and division even in the Democratic Party. How can we make the Democratic Party members hate each other more as if

[Tommy Vietor]

we need the help?

[Senator Cory Booker]

That's the point. The biggest threat to our nation in my opinion is not the threat matrix as I see in the different nations that are trying to undermine us. The biggest threat to our democracy, which was shown in the time of the Civil War and the heroism of Douglas and Lincoln who found a working relationship. The biggest threat is our inability to talk to each other, to find common ground, to work through our most difficult solutions. And sometimes, especially in in group, forget the Republicans that attack often the in group sanctions are so bad it debilitates even the Democratic Party from coming together around common views and beating the very people on the other side of the aisle who pose the greatest threats.

[Tommy Vietor]

So I wasn't going to ask you about this and I'm going to say I pre regret being part of the discourse about this because think it's talked about enough. But based on what you're saying, I do think it's a natural question which is through your office you said, and it's just one person, but it's part of a large group of, I think people that have this point of view that you wouldn't say go on like Hasan Piker's stream because he's said some heinous and stupid shit in the past. But to me, like given, you know, this is what I want to understand. Like to me, I would expect you'd be like chomping at the bit to say, you know what, of course I'm going to go there because I want to represent this point of view in a place that doesn't normally hear it. And I want to talk about the ways in which I think some of the things he said are offensive. The same way you might want to go confront somebody on Fox News or you've met with, you know, talked to Newt Gingrich and he said crazy shit in the past, too. So, like, maybe part of the way out of this is for someone like you to go to those spaces, even if there have been things that are offensive to people.

[Senator Cory Booker]

Yeah. So first of all, somehow we're having a much more deeper and personal conversation than I thought. So I'm gonna be very candid with you.

[Tommy Vietor]

Gotcha.

[Senator Cory Booker]

Got me. But in a very good way.

[Tommy Vietor]

I always want to talk to you about deep things.

[Senator Cory Booker]

No, I appreciate. And that's why I appreciate you, frankly. So here's candor. I had no idea who this person was until a few days ago. I really. I never heard their name.

[Tommy Vietor]

That's going around, I think. Yeah.

[Senator Cory Booker]

And I still haven't heard him speak even. I haven't heard anything he's done. The man sitting over there is my comms director.

[Tommy Vietor]

It's almost as if there's a bunch of focus on one random streamer, and it's not really the right way to have a big debate.

[Senator Cory Booker]

Yeah, that's my point. So my comms director said to me, oh, you're getting asked this question. Would you go on the show? And I'm like, well, who is this person? And all he did. The totality of this person. He gave me right there, that guy. I don't. He's not on camera, so I don't feel like I'm implicating him. The totality of what he did to me was show me four or five of the most outrageous things.

[Tommy Vietor]

And they're pretty outrageous.

[Senator Cory Booker]

They are. I said, okay, well, whoa. Let's give whatever you saw officially coming out of my office. So here's a couple things. And I have this experience. I don't want to say daily. My wife experienced it last night in the airport as somebody was wanting to take a moment as I come off this very long flight and to scream at me. I always tell people, give me a Mother's Day card, please. Because I get called you mother often. And it's from people on wings of both parties.

[Tommy Vietor]

Really be a Father's Day card in that sense.

[Senator Cory Booker]

But calling me a mother.

[Tommy Vietor]

Well, you're not the mother.

[Senator Cory Booker]

Oh, you're right. I never thought about that analysis here.

[Tommy Vietor]

Any kind of card would do. I think I appreciate that all kinds of mothers have sex. You think about it.

[Senator Cory Booker]

I think that my wife wants to come back here often. Suddenly she likes you. My point is the first rule of mental. Actually, this is not my first rule of mental health. I have a number of that. I really want all your listeners to like. This is a very good rule for mental Health, first and foremost, you do not have to attend every argument you're invited to and pick and choose, because sincerely, I meet with thousands of people from town halls to roundtables and the like, and I want to be very thoughtful about how I apply my energy. And so whether it was this extraordinary woman who brought me together a few weeks ago with Palestinian leaders from my state to have a direct, very candid conversation to meeting with Republicans in my state who straight up think I have horns before we sit down, I choose often to try to sit down with people on the other side of the aisle or on the other side of ideological bridges to try to remind them that we have common humanity. One of my favorite experiences in the Senate, and you'll appreciate this, was with Jim Inhofe, if you remember the man who brought a snowball, the senator who brought a snowball to the Senate floor, Bill Bradley gave me this advice. He gave me three rules, three things I should abide by if I'm gonna be a really good senator. And one of them was, you go towards.

[Tommy Vietor]

Just don't shoot till you're in the paint.

[Senator Cory Booker]

No, no. Sadly, he can't help my very average basketball abilities. But meet with every one of your Republican colleagues, go out to dinner with them, get to know them as human beings. And when I got down there, I went on this wild odyssey. But Inhofe I couldn't get a meeting with. So I go into his office for Bible study. And there's a brand of Christianity I'm sure he abides by that is very different than the deep Christian faith, very different than the faith I have. And so I go in his office, and immediately my implicit biases are surprised because I did not expect to see this elder white right wing conservative. On his altar is one of his main shelves. He had a picture of him in an affectionate embrace with a black girl. And I didn't call my elder senators back then by their first names. I just said, Mr. Chairman, sir, who dat? And he tells me this story about them adopting a young child out of a very, very difficult circumstance. I was moved by it, didn't expect it. Months later, I'm on the Senate floor, angry and pouting in the back because there's a big education bill going through that's being managed by a great Tennessee Republican who ran for president multiple times, Lamar Alexander. And there's a delicate balance that often is in the Senate. No amendments. Let's just get this bill through. And I think my amendment's important because the worst educational. Some of the Worst educational outcomes in our country are for kids that are homeless or kids that are in foster systems. And I wanted to do something to create what I thought way was better assurances that they would get the educational services that they deserve. Long story short is I see Inhofe come in as I'm sitting at the balcony. I remember that story, and I walk down there and I say, sir, I know you have a particular concern for kids from disadvantaged circumstances. Can I tell you about my amendment? And would you. Would you co sponsor it? I just went. Swung for the fences, and he gave me the Senate version of no, which is, I'll think about it. Let me talk to my staff. And I said, okay. And I walked back to my back row where I was sitting back then and still am. And I look up, and he's like, his GPS coordinates are off. He's walking right into the Dem section and walking right up to me, and he goes, corey, we're in. In. And I go, what do you mean you're in? And he said, I'll co sponsor your amendment. And then he walks off quickly. And I was sat there stunned. And then I look up and I see Chuck Grassley on the floor. And I went over to him and I made my case. And as soon as he saw that Inhofe was on, he said to me, not that I'll talk to my staff. He goes, I'm on it, too. Long story short, as I went to Lamar after getting all of these people supporting it that you would not expect, and look at him. He laughs and he says, gordon, this will get on the bill, and it's the law of the land now.

[Tommy Vietor]

And that was the one that banned the trans athletes from swimming.

[Senator Cory Booker]

No, it was not.

[Tommy Vietor]

I'm kidding. I'm sorry.

[Senator Cory Booker]

It's not appropriate, Sean. No, it's. Look, if there's anything, as a guy who's now written two books, one called United, one called Stan, so together, Stand united.

[Tommy Vietor]

Oh, boy.

[Senator Cory Booker]

All right, I'm sorry. I'm sorry. But when I was mayor of the city of Newark and I wanted to get shit done, the way I would tell my staff is that uncommon coalitions create uncommon results. And the best. If everybody in your coalition agrees with you on everything, then your coalition is not big enough. And we right now have this ability to want to eviscerate others if they don't use the language we want them to use, if they don't agree with us on everything. And there is no way the most complicated problems in this country and in this world will be solved. If you can't find ways of bringing people together to do the hard work of finding common ground and finding common cause, even if it's not everything, can we move this forward? And the last example I'll give is just guns in America. I'm not sure if there's been many senators who've been more affected by gun violence. Clearly Mark Kelly is one. But a guy who knows lots of people have been murdered in Newark and people I cared about deeply. I feel the sense of urgency and I wanted to solve problems, not simply moralize about them. And found out that only one shooting in my city in all the years I was mayor was done by somebody who bought a gun legally. And I know aks and other automatic weapons, which I have strong feelings on, but the handguns that flow into communities like mine. And then I find out through polling that most gun owners, most NRA members, agree on universal background checks, but yet we can't pass that legislation.

[Tommy Vietor]

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[Senator Cory Booker]

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[Tommy Vietor]

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[Jon Lovett]

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[Tommy Vietor]

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[Carvana Advertiser]

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[Senator Cory Booker]

Unbelievable.

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[Senator Cory Booker]

Love ya.

[Tommy Vietor]

So good you'll want to leave a voicemail about it. Sell your car today on Carvana. Pick up. Fees may apply. Do you know something about gun violence? Mass shootings galvanize people's attention, but the majority of people who are killed by guns are killed by. First of all, they're dying by suicide.

[Senator Cory Booker]

Yes.

[Tommy Vietor]

And they're being killed in sort of more like kind of quotidian mayhem that doesn't get as much attention or empathy which would also I think lead to challenging some of Democrats own priors about the best way to kind of address gun violence, including around of mental health and a few other issues that aren't specifically related to guns. Do you think that we've attended to mass shootings as a culture more than we have to the actual sort of more common ways of dying by guns?

[Senator Cory Booker]

Yeah, I think it's absolutely a problem. Look, I'm proud of the bill that I got a chance to write some of the section, the first one in 30 years we got passed on guns. That for me my part was the community violence intervention money and getting a lot of that into communities like mine in New Jersey that really helped to stop the kind of violence we see in Camden and Newark and Patterson Passaic. I know what captures people's attention and often it's frustrating to me. Like I just watched this documentary about black Jewish relations and when Goodman, Cheney and Schwerner died. I never knew this before till I saw the documentary how, how ferociously noble the white wives were of the Jewish men that died with Cheney that they were saying when they were dredging for their bodies and they were doing this massive search, they found black body after black body after black body that had been murdered and thrown into that river. But it never got national attention. And these, remember one interview with this woman was that you would not be paying attention to this, yet another black person being murdered unless there were white people being murdered as well. And so I will still remember in my life, I think the most like broken, One of the most broken I've ever felt in my life was after a murder in my neighborhood. I tried in vain to stop this kid from bleeding to death. And I was so shaken by it, I still don't even remember how I got home. But as I'm wiping this kid. So I just lost my first mayoral race. It seemed like forever till I would get a chance again. I felt like I failed so many people who believe that I could, could bring an end to this level of violence. And I had never felt this level of anger before as I sat there and tried to wipe this kid's blood off my hands. And my anger was at our own nation for this. The obscenity of indifference towards the constant death of people in my community that didn't even make the newspapers anymore. And so look, I feel this frustration now globally and locally, like getting people to even mention Sudan on a podcast seems almost impossible to talk about American weapons there being used in this humanitarian crisis. I feel that at home still, that we still live in a nation. We joke now more than ever about marijuana, but there's still thousands of marijuana possession arrests in America, disproportionately black and brown people. I feel this discord that our politics and the issues we debate and don't truly keep centered. The people who are really struggling while we debate in the unfinished business of America. And I feel like we're losing, we are actually losing what my parents generation handed me when my dad's generation, 95% did better. If you were going to be born poor on the planet Earth, even poor and black like my father in a segregated town, this was the best country because it had the best social mobility in that generation. Pell Grants covered the majority of cops. The deal worked and it was the deal still remember. Democrats kept majorities through the Tip o' Neill years, from FDR through Tip o' Neill, because most of America believed in the deal and believed the Democrats were fighting for them. And by the way, God bless my father's generation. They're now leaving the political stage. Last baby boomer president, last baby boomer heads of the Senate, my generation and your generation, we've seen the collapsing of the deal. We've seen all that FDR sort of of did now collapsing. You know this, I'm plant based and our food system's now controlled by like four or five companies. Meatpacking, the famous book by Upton Sinclair, the Jungle, which exposed all the horrors of the meatpacking industry and created changes for a while. For a few decades those were middle class jobs. Now it's more corporately concentrated than it was back then and the same kind of dangers are popping up. So I could keep going through. You are not the bargain. This is how bad the bargain is and how much other countries are out Americaning us. We're no longer the best country to be born poor classist England, it's better to be born there. If your sole goal is to make it into out of the bottom quintile.

[Tommy Vietor]

Yeah, but then you're still English at the end of it.

[Senator Cory Booker]

I guess my point is our politics and the divides that define them are failing Americans. And if there's anything that's going to save. Not the Democratic Party, screw parties for a second. If there's any kind of thing going to save the promise of America, it has got to be a renewal of that deal, a redemption of that deal and a different kind of thinking, not just about our problems, but how we think about each other. And that's the urgency of this moment. We can argue ourselves to death and meanwhile this country and the people who are really getting screwed right now are going to continue to hurt unless we figure out a way to get ourselves out of this. And I would be wrong if I did not tell you one of the reasons why we're stuck is because of the outsized, poisonous influence of money and politics. And this is why I don't understand what's happening right now in the Democratic Party. People are talking about AIPAC, but why aren't we talking about all PACs? Why aren't we talking about the fact that all of the money flowing into our politics right now is destructive and anti Democratic? Especially because it's so few people who are fueling the billions of dollars. Remember of all the money spent on Donald Trump's campaign, 10 people spent 44% of it. But it's not just their problem. We have a big money problem on our side as well. Ten years ago, I think it was about that. I was one of the first people in Congress to say no corporate PAC money at the end of last year, I said enough. I don't want to start asking. I want to say no more issue area PACs as well. I think that the fact that I can sit down. I'm on the ag committee and we have oversight of, of crypto. And as I'm negotiating because I think the crypto markets need structure. And so I'm at the good faith negotiations at the table with Barrasso and his team and Veronica, another person that's here is off camera. She knows this phone call that came in. But while we're negotiating the details of this bill that industry puts together, I think it's $175 million pack where they're willing to drop 10, 20, 30, 40 million against people. And I think that it was so grotesque that you got a call where they somebody from that industry tried to apologize. What was the exact words? We don't want you to think this is a threat. Yeah. We don't want you to think this is a threat.

[Tommy Vietor]

We want you to know it is.

[Carvana Advertiser]

Yeah.

[Tommy Vietor]

So in terms of addressing some of the deeper issues, you proposed the keeping your pay act and I wanted to ask you about it because I think it's insane and I want you to convince me why I'm wrong. No federal income tax on the first $75,000 of people's earnings sounds good. You'll pay for it by raising the corporate tax rate, top marginal rate and closing the carried interest loop.

[Senator Cory Booker]

And other things.

[Tommy Vietor]

And other things.

[Senator Cory Booker]

Other stepped up basis. I could go through all the things.

[Tommy Vietor]

There's a few other pay fors and there's a few other ways in which increased child tax credit, a few other things. Here's my question about it. If you believe the majority of Americans shouldn't be paying income tax, shouldn't be

[Senator Cory Booker]

paying income tax on their first $75,000 of household earnings.

[Tommy Vietor]

Which would mean the majority of Americans wouldn't pay income tax.

[Senator Cory Booker]

Which mean the majority of Americans would not pay income tax. Yes.

[Tommy Vietor]

Does that suggest that right now people are not getting the value from their taxes that they ought to be getting? Like we all. I want a higher. I want a more progressive income tax. I want a more progressive tax system. I want the rich to pay more, I want corporations to pay more. But don't we want to live in a society where everyone says, you know what?

[Senator Cory Booker]

What?

[Tommy Vietor]

No. Nobody likes taxes. Everyone would like their taxes to be lower. But I benefit from the highways. I benefit from having the best military in the world. I benefit from having tsa. I benefit from what our government does for us. And I believe in government as a Democrat. And so therefore, we're all going to pay our share into the, into the tax.

[Senator Cory Booker]

So let me, let me, let me address it in a few ways. So, first of all, I'm glad you kept saying income tax, because you and I pay a lot of federal taxes that are not income taxes, payroll tax,

[Tommy Vietor]

there's gas tax a lot of places,

[Senator Cory Booker]

and those are very regressive.

[Tommy Vietor]

Yeah.

[Senator Cory Booker]

So understand those poor people are paying a lot more than wealthy people when it comes to most federal taxes. That's the first point. So we're just now talking about income tax, but you're stipulating that we're all paying into the common kitty even if we don't pay income tax.

[Tommy Vietor]

Well, and as of right now, the current standard deduction is what, around $30,000 for a family born. But payroll taxes kick in in $1. So this is a tax cut that you're proposing that doesn't hit people that are making the least. It actually hits people making more between, say, above 75?

[Senator Cory Booker]

No, because then you're ignoring the massive increase in the CTC and the eitc. So this cuts child poverty in half. This cuts the overall poverty rate. And I've seen different estimates by people who've run the numbers from 10% to greater. So this is a massive boost to the people that live in neighborhoods like the one I live in, where if you sit down with a woman, single mom, one young kid, makes $60,000 a year, she'll get almost $6,000 of their own income. So before we talk about the analysis that you did, I just wanted to let you know, because I've done this in focus groups sitting down. Not focus groups, political focus groups. Kitchen tables, around the kitchen table, and just asking real Americans what this would mean for their lives. And literally having people, when they do the little calculator on my website, start tearing up because they're treading water. They're barely staying afloat. And $6,000 to them is a difference between them making their rent payment and keeping up with all these costs. So when I talk to intellectuals like us, I get one response. When I talk to Americans, intellectual behind it. I don't mean to be insulting, you know, I'm not insulting. I have such respect for you. I'm just saying to you, when I sit down with real Americans who are really struggling right now, I've talked to families that make $100,000 a year and are not keeping up with the cost of their health care and childcare. So I just want you to know that if you and I were to go out in the streets right now, just with our little calculator and ask people, it'd be wildly popular. So you're asking now the philosophical question of shouldn't people on their first $75,000 pay income? And I will tell you this. We, and I'm including us, who are progressive people, we have tolerated in America the top tax level, grifting off of the rest because they pay an effective tax rate lower than a teacher or a firefighter or the people that are soldiers who are fighting right now in Iran. So think about the absurdity of this, the tax avoidance that's built into our system. You stipulate that. So why have we been okay with and you and I have not been. Have not been. But we are not as outraged as often. I'm getting about a tax that suddenly lets people enjoy what the wealthiest have enjoyed because they've built into the system. And let me tell you things that we defend. I will defend the mortgage interest deduction, but did you know most of that tax expenditure is enjoyed by the top 20%?

[Tommy Vietor]

Well, this is the. I know. Well, you'll defend the mortgage interest deduction because you'll have, you're from an expensive state like New Jersey where a lot of people benefited from. You defend the SALT deduction, which is just a way of saying that people in rich states should pay for less of their local government and have it be subsidized from people from states that have less local government. All of these are ways around. So I agree. People are really struggling. Health care costs are insane. Education costs are insane. Gas prices are really high. There's not enough opportunity. Like, incomes have been flat. Housing has become a massive crisis in so many places where the jobs are okay. Those are the real problems.

[Senator Cory Booker]

Yes.

[Tommy Vietor]

So you're, you're looking, you're basically saying, and so we're going to zero out your taxes, which a lot of people would be a huge relief for them. But it doesn't address the underlying problem which we've built an economy in which it's there that people are not making enough to get by.

[Senator Cory Booker]

And so I'm telling you right now, because you are a good political thinker and strategist. I'm telling you right now, you have the Senate, the House and the White House and you've got six months to redeem the Democratic Party. I say you need big, bold ideas that people feel right away and that makes sense to people. And I'm going to try my best over the next coming months to be one of those people that starts putting out the big ideas, swinging for the fences that show we're creating a new deal in America, that we're creating something that could redeem the dream for America that you don't believe anymore because half the country doesn't. They're working harder than their parents and making less. And so this of all the ideas. And again, we have a few more big ideas we're rolling out. But this is basic, it's simple. I get it. And finally, working class people can keep more of their paycheck. You can tell me, Democratic Party, you want to nibble around the edges, but you're going to let my family, I'm one of those families making the low six figures. I got two kids and you're going to tell me I can keep $10,000 more of my money? Well, I'm telling you right now, that goes so much farther than you trying to give me some Alphabet soup things that the Democratic Party is going to try to do. My grandfather, who was a Republican, became a New Deal Democrat because of the big bold ideas like Social Security that was gonna actually end poverty. And we now know it hasn't. Cause we haven't done the right thing by Social Security. But end poverty for a generation of elder people in our country. The Democratic Party needs big bold ideas again. And this one is simple, that everybody can understand. And if you don't go on the website, put your earnings in and see how much more money you have, and you still pay federal taxes, and you

[Tommy Vietor]

still pay your payroll taxes, you pay your, you pay your Medicare taxes, you pay that, you pay that. That's. I, I get that. I guess. Like, I, I'm gonna just sort of. Is it like. I agree. I'm sure it's popular to tell everybody that you're not going to pay taxes anymore. Like, I think that you're right. I don't know how much big of an idea.

[Senator Cory Booker]

You and I should be precise with our words.

[Tommy Vietor]

I, you're not, you are taxes, you're paying. Well, this is what I said, you're

[Senator Cory Booker]

not paying taxes anymore.

[Tommy Vietor]

So I think it's a, it's definitely a bold idea to raise the standard deduction to 70,000. But you're leaving in place, say like the payroll system that comes off of people's first dollar. Right. That, that everybody.

[Senator Cory Booker]

Which we should change, you and I both know we should. The, the higher, higher income earners who pay a lot lower percentage of their income and we should be affecting that as well if we're going to make Social Security more solvent. And there we should increase Social Security for people who live off of their Social Security checks like a lot of people do and live in poverty. I'm still a progressive that believes we need to have a common sense tax system that actually benefits working people in America. I am telling you, if you and I and you've seen this data looking at working people in America, most of them feel like they're being screwed, that the deal isn't working and that they are seeing more and more of their paycheck go out and less of the resources they need to make sure their family can eat and pay for prescription drugs and do more.

[Jon Lovett]

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[Tommy Vietor]

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[Jon Lovett]

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[Tommy Vietor]

before we get back to my conversation with Senator Booker, become a friend of the pod. Go to crooked.com friends and sign up to become, become a subscriber. It helps build this pro democracy independent media company. You get ad free episodes. You get episodes that are just for subscribers like Pod Save America Only Friends and Polar Coaster where Dan breaks down the latest polls in a really helpful way. You also can become part of the community online in the Discord. You can subscribe wherever you get your content. We're all over the place. But go to Qriket.com friends and sign up. It is the best way you can support what we're doing here. Thank you. It's also something that's good for you. It's good you were doing it for you too. So sign up crooked.com friends. Now back to Senator Cory Booker. Well, more and more people's paychecks are going towards the daily cost of living. Not to the government. Right. We just passed Trump's big beautiful bill. Did increase the child tax credit, right? Yeah. But a little bit. I'm just, I'm getting out of the rhetoric and into the facts.

[Senator Cory Booker]

Yeah. Thank you.

[Tommy Vietor]

And to me. Okay.

[Senator Cory Booker]

Okay.

[Tommy Vietor]

I want to have a simple progressive tax code and a government that works and functions and delivers value for people.

[Senator Cory Booker]

Yes.

[Tommy Vietor]

Right. And I don't see how creating a $5 trillion hole that you're going to.

[Senator Cory Booker]

No. Can I challenge you on this? I want to challenge you on this.

[Tommy Vietor]

Challenge me.

[Senator Cory Booker]

You are comfortable with the richest of the richest getting. Because to say. Cause a $5 trillion hole is not, is not fair.

[Tommy Vietor]

Not fair to who?

[Senator Cory Booker]

Because it's not a $5 trillion hole if you're paying it by unrigging the tax system.

[Tommy Vietor]

Well, my understanding is that if you, even if you raise the top rates, even if you close the carried interest loophole. I am for every progressive. I am for every pay for you have in this. I want to do every pay for

[Jon Lovett]

you have in this.

[Tommy Vietor]

But if I were saying, all right, I've got a few trillion dollars that I'm going to try to give to people in tax relief. The income tax, because of the standard deduction. It's not going to the people that are paying the payroll tax. There's a lot of people that make very little money that will not benefit very much from this bill. Right?

[Senator Cory Booker]

Yes. No, you're wrong. If you're expanding the CTC and, and if you're expanding the eitc, I'm sorry to talk to acronyms to your audience,

[Tommy Vietor]

but the earned income tax credit and the child tax credit.

[Senator Cory Booker]

Yes. If you're expanding those significantly you're going to make sure that. And by the way, we expand it to teenagers who work who don't get the EITC and to our elders at work and don't get the eitc. So even if you're somebody that has part time earnings, you are going to benefit now from the eitc. So trust me, we designed this so that we are cutting poverty in America and making work pay. And why is that person, that working class person who makes a nurse and a cop who make $100,000 a year, why do we say they're making too much money? They're struggling right now?

[Tommy Vietor]

I don't think they're making too much money.

[Senator Cory Booker]

Right. And so this is not that they're making too much money, but that we shouldn't be looking to benefit people across the income scale. And so what I'm simply saying is that it doesn't cost anything. If you are taking away all of these tax avoidance schemes of the largest corporations and you use it to fund this, then it costs nothing. It's just stopping the people at the top who have been benefiting from a rigged system and finally letting the people in our country who are working have the benefits of this democracy. Because right now all the benefits are accruing to the wealthiest who are seeing compound gains like they've never seen before. When are working people in America going to get their fair deal?

[Tommy Vietor]

And so, and you think the only the way to get to a fair deal is people pay payroll tax, but they pay no income tax. So the payroll tax is four things. For Social Security, it's for Medicare. I'm trying to understand it.

[Senator Cory Booker]

I'm sticking with you.

[Tommy Vietor]

They pay for Social Security, Medicare, but the money you pay in income taxes is for everything else that the government does. And you're saying that people that make under a certain amount of money just should be, don't, don't, aren't receiving enough benefits.

[Senator Cory Booker]

And so what I'm asking now is a guy who would defend the standard deduction we have right now. Maybe you want to raise it to 55, maybe you want to raise it to 65. Why are you okay with a large percentage of Americans that don't pay. Very large percentage of Americans don't pay federal income taxes now either. And so if you're comfortable with that, why aren't you comfortable with moving it up a little bit more and giving relief to those people as well?

[Tommy Vietor]

I guess my view of it is that I actually am not uncomfortable with doing that. I worry that what we're Signaling is we have lost the ability to make an argument that government provides a basic good that we all share in that collectively we all pay into this income tax and it's. And we hate it and it stinks. But we're building an economy in which people have opportunities and we are gonna be so careful with your money because it's everyone's money, that we are gonna have a government that works for people.

[Senator Cory Booker]

So, so these are not contrary arguments.

[Tommy Vietor]

And I'll add one more thing, which is a system in which people are paying income tax, payroll tax, paying into all these different buckets in which people that make under 40k pay a higher percentage of their taxes than people making $1 billion is a stupid system. The answer isn't to just zero out the income tax, which doesn't help hit the people making, paying payroll tax on their first dollar, but build a better system from, from the ground up in which we can look at it and say on a, in a graduated way, this is a progressive income tax system that is fair across the world.

[Senator Cory Booker]

But my friend, why are you the tyranny of the or? I am the liberation of the and I believe in government. I'm a former mayor. When we made shit work in Newark, when we went from filling potholes from months to literally hours, when we made people who were paying their parking ticket not have to come to city hall and wait on long lines, when we made somebody who wants to put an addition on their house so they can rent it out, out. I love making things work. We have a government. I'm sorry. Donald Trump has this knack for pointing out the right problems but coming up with disastrous solutions. Do you want to talk about the need for a more efficient, more effective government that lowers the friction points for Americans that make them frustrated. Hell, just paying taxes in America is a testimony to corporate corruption. Because there's a handful of corporations, every time you want to make it easy, they come in because these tax fines, TurboTax and all. So what I'm saying to you is this is one idea of a suite of ideas that the Democratic Party, I believe needs to get on board of. And yes, one of them is redeeming government. This idea of the Reagan era. Government bad. No, bad government is bad government bad, stupid government bad. But this idea that we pool our collective resources and provide real services from high speed rail to quality to world class education to childcare for everybody in our country, that they can have affordable childcare, these are things I passionately believe in. And I'm telling you, we gotta Think bigger that we can do this, give taxpayers in the country a break, let them have what the richest of the richest had for a little while and still find ways to do the other thing. There was this again in my book. This wonderful woman named Marissa Broger, who's my speechwriter, who came to help me on this book, she finds this quote one day she goes, I'm going to read you this. And I said, what? It's from a chaplain in the Civil War who says, are we a nation or have we a government? It gave me chills because less and less we're thinking we're a nation where we do have common cause and we're looking as government is just, hey, I have no loyalty to this thing, government. I think government is bad. And the right has so demonized this idea that I'm sorry, public schools are one of the greatest inventions in democracy. That's government. Having roads and bridges that actually work and are efficient and effective, that can fuel commerce. That's government. Hell, keeping me safe every day from toxins and chemicals in my food. That's government. And we should celebrate that. But it's hard to do that unless the first part of this conversation we were having is we get back to seeing that we have something in common as a nation, that we are a people that have an obligation, that our very founders, as imperfect as they were, said that we had to pledge to each other our lives, our fortunes and our sacred honor. Well, we know the sacred honor's going because we hate each other. We know the fortune's going because we have people that want, that live this life as I can collect, collect as much dollars as possible. So my bank account is big as possible before I die. And then, hell, I'm not paying taxes on that. I'm just going to give it to my people. So I guess I just don't understand.

[Tommy Vietor]

Isn't that all an argument for saying, hey, if we're going to have a country together, if Democrats are going to say to people, the only fair income tax rate for you is zero.

[Senator Cory Booker]

No, that.

[Tommy Vietor]

But I'm just, I'm listening to what you're saying and I'm following the logic of it. I want, I like, look, I think we should have a single payer health care system that's going to require everybody paying into taxes instead of paying insurance. To me, the question is, are people getting value out of their tax dollars? And you would say no. And I'm saying no.

[Senator Cory Booker]

No, I would not say no. Look, I will do this again and I've done it before. I always tell people when I was running for mayor in Newark, if you vote for me, I'm gonna ask for more from you than any elected leader has ever asked from you. Because there's no way we're gonna turn around Newark. There's no way we're gonna do impossible things unless everybody is pitching in. And I hate it. I hate that George Bush, for the first time ever in American history, he took our country to war and said, I'm giving you a tax break. It was the first time we didn't collectively invest in our national effort. Which you and I would disagree that it was an unworthy war. But I hate that. I hate that we don't feel like we're all in on making America work. The minor difference we're having right now is where the standard deduction should be, right where it is. Or to give relief to people, to a generation of folks, Millennials do not believe they can pay rent. And so what I'm simply saying is give more people the same break for the last 40 years that we've given the wealthiest of the wealthy. Give them a chance to invest in savings. Hey, there's this 529 vehicle. That's bullshit, too, in the sense that I believe in 529s, but they're overwhelmingly used. When I asked this family groups around the table, anybody have any money to invest? Nobody did. Why can't we just say to the next generations as the baby boomers start to leave the stage, you know what, Millennials? We're gonna let you keep more of your money. You're still gonna have obligations. This is still a nation. This is a country. In fact, we demand more patriotism. Not your flag pin, not your song. What real patriotism is, is a quiet devotion to this country. And you show that by your devotion to your fellow woman and man, by your neighbor. That's. We need to revive that sense of patriotism where we are all in. And where that standard deduction line is right now. The tax code's written for the wealthiest. Yeah. Let the Democratic Party say, you know what? We are gonna give you a break. Finally. We're gonna create a new deal with a rigged tax code. It's not rigged anymore for the wealthy. It's fair for you.

[Tommy Vietor]

Okay?

[Senator Cory Booker]

And we're gon. By letting you keep more of your money, it doesn't mean that we're not going to ask you to pay any taxes. When you buy a beer. This is not a beer, but looks like one from far away. We're going to, we're going to, we're going to have taxes on that.

[Tommy Vietor]

Hell, regressive sales tax, example.

[Senator Cory Booker]

But I'm like, when are we going to finally federally legalize marijuana and tax the shit out of it so that we can create more revenue?

[Tommy Vietor]

Now my weed's getting taxed with alcohol.

[Senator Cory Booker]

I'm sorry about taxing your weed, man.

[Tommy Vietor]

I think it's fine.

[Senator Cory Booker]

But, but my point is we are a nation of abundance.

[Tommy Vietor]

I don't have that much.

[Senator Cory Booker]

We are a nation of great wealth.

[Tommy Vietor]

I won't feel it.

[Senator Cory Booker]

Why are we thinking so narrowly? You're killing me here. We have so much wealth, but yet we have so many poor struggling people. Yes.

[Tommy Vietor]

Because the economy is fucked up and broken and we have massive structural problems.

[Senator Cory Booker]

Yes.

[Tommy Vietor]

And your answer is to say the taxes are bad. And I'm saying fix the problem.

[Senator Cory Booker]

Why are you telling me? That's my singular answer.

[Tommy Vietor]

We must come together and share in our shared obligations, our blood, our fortune, our treasure. But if you're. Any income tax over zero for the majority of Americans is unfair.

[Senator Cory Booker]

You're mischaracterizing again. And I love you. I sincerely do.

[Tommy Vietor]

And I, and I.

[Senator Cory Booker]

It's not a singular idea there. It has to be.

[Tommy Vietor]

And you're not saying it's temporary before we fix things. You're not saying it's. You're saying the new tax code will have these numbers in it. And I worry about what happens when we have go from having. When we have two anti tax parties. Because I worry about living in a society in which we don't allow conversations about trade offs, we don't allow conversations about new opportunities.

[Senator Cory Booker]

Months.

[Tommy Vietor]

And then all of a sudden we've got one party that's against taxes for the rich, one party that's against taxes for the middle class. And then what happens?

[Senator Cory Booker]

Right?

[Tommy Vietor]

And it's fun to be against taxes. Everybody fucking hates tax. I hate taxes.

[Senator Cory Booker]

Again, I'm in favor of your proposal. I am not.

[Tommy Vietor]

I love what you've called for. As I think about it.

[Senator Cory Booker]

I am not an anti tax person. No, my brother, no.

[Tommy Vietor]

Okay.

[Senator Cory Booker]

I am not. I'm an anti working class people being screwed.

[Tommy Vietor]

Well, that's a fun way to say it.

[Senator Cory Booker]

Stop in the name of love. Stop in the name of. How could you. You tell me if I'm sitting here talking about all those other taxes we just talked about that people are gonna have to pay, why can't. For the working class people? I am not anti tax. I am pro working people keeping more of their money. And yeah, when you raise the standard deduction, there'll be some people that you seem to tolerate at where it is. The standard deduction is now. But not complaining about that. Why not give a little more relief to people who feel like the deal isn't made? And now I'm gonna tell you something exciting. If we had five big ideas that we ran on as a party and then got into office. And I love President Biden. I partnered with him on the CHIPS act and the infrastructure bill. But people in my neighborhood did not see those changes and didn't feel like it changed for them. Five big ideas that we in the first three months do. And everybody feels a real change in their lives. It's not just having more money in their pocket. It's like suddenly seeing billionaires not have influence on our politics because we banned the pacs that I've given up. We say nobody can take that. Everybody has got to have the same standard I put forward. And I'm living on myself. No issue area PACs, no whatever. We kill Citizens United. And that the worst decision. Maybe that's another one of our bold ideas we make. Everybody from a president won't be able to have crypto coins. A senator won't be able to trade stocks. And the highest court in the land won't have the lowest, lowest ethics laws like they do right now, where billionaires take them out on these fancy hunting trips and give them mobile homes. Wow, this Democratic Party made a change in my life immediately, my family's life immediately. So we can actually pay our rent and have quality childcare. And now they're showing us that finally it's not gonna be the moneyed interest that I'm fighting against every single day that are corrupting our politics, that are allowing corporate concentration and more. But wait a minute, they banned all that as well. What are you guys gonna do for the third act? Imagine if we did big ideas like that right away and then turn to the country and say, we still have some problems to solve, like gun violence. We still have some problems to solve, like healthcare. And some of these things we may

[Tommy Vietor]

have to pay for and why we

[Senator Cory Booker]

have it in and why we have it now. You've got deposits in the emotional bank account of a nation that has nothing left to give.

[Tommy Vietor]

How to increase worker leverage, how to build more housing, how to build high speed rail, how to make an economy which people have opportunity even if they are paying taxes.

[Senator Cory Booker]

And here's the big thing I really want to tell you. You pull off those first three or four things in you're not only going to win back the loyalty of people that are tired of voting for Democrats and seeing nothing happen. You're going to start seeing people on the other side of the aisle say, wait a minute, minute. You're now explaining to me how workers get screwed with things like non compete clauses and labor laws. And I actually get you. I'm a factory worker that's voted Republican the last 20 years. And this guy's making sense. And I'm listening to him now because my life has gotten materially better. What I want for the Democratic Party is no more damn elections where one person gets 49.7 and the other person gets 49.3. We need a wave election. We need a generational renewal. We need people to begin to believe again that they have people in office. And it's not. You don't get that through talk. When I won in the city of Newark, as a guy who had barely lived there back in 1998, I knew people, their vote for me wasn't that we believe in you, it's we're gonna give you a shot to deliver for us. And when we get that shot, if we should get that shot again and have the trifector, we better deliver and deliver big and bold like FDR did with our version in our generation of the New Deal.

[Tommy Vietor]

All right, all right, fine. We'll do it.

[Senator Cory Booker]

Okay.

[Tommy Vietor]

Senator Cory Booker, thank you so much for the time we got in.

[Senator Cory Booker]

I'm so much better than I thought it was gonna be.

[Tommy Vietor]

Wow.

[Senator Cory Booker]

Cuz you, you didn't hold back and I appreciate you.

[Tommy Vietor]

I've heard it once, I've heard it a thousand times. Senator Booker, the book is stand 25 hours and you didn't poop your pants.

[Senator Cory Booker]

I did not. We're circling the drain. We're circling the toilet now.

[Tommy Vietor]

You gotta get him outta here. You guys got places to be. Thank you.

[Senator Cory Booker]

I know, Honestly, thank you. It was a really good visit.

[Tommy Vietor]

Thank you to Senator Cory Booker for joining us. I'm glad we got to do that. It was a great freewheeling conversation. I appreciate that he was willing to give us the time and I appreciate you for listening. We will be back in your feeds with John, Tommy and me with a new episode of Pod Save America on Tuesday. And other than that, I'll see you at the confirmation hearings for a freak Trump puts up for Attorney General next.

[Pod Save America Producer]

If you want to listen to Pod Save America ad free and get access to exclusive podcasts, go to cricket.com friends to subscribe on Supercast Substack YouTube or Apple Podcasts. Also, please consider leaving us a review that helps boost this episode and everything we do here at Crooked. Pod, Save and America is a crooked media production. Our producer is Saul Rubin. Our associate producer is Farah Safari. Austin Fisher is our senior producer. Reed Churlin is our executive editor. Adrian Hill is our head of news and politics. The show is mixed and edited by Andrew Chadwick. Jordan Kanter is our sound engineer, with audio support from Kyle Seglin and Charlotte Landis. Matt de Groat is our head of production. Naomi Sengel is our executive assistant. Thanks to our digital team, Elijah Cohn, Haley Jones, Ben Hefcoat, Mia Kelman, Carol Pelaviev, David Toles, and Ryan Young, our production staff is proudly unionized with the Writers Guild of America East.