Thanksgiving Mailbag: Trans Rights, Progressive Media, and Skinny Jeans

Summary

Pod Save America: Thanksgiving Mailbag Summary

Episode: Thanksgiving Mailbag: Trans Rights, Progressive Media, and Skinny Jeans
Release Date: November 29, 2024
Hosts: Jon Favreau, Jon Lovett, Dan Pfeiffer, Tommy Vietor
Guest: Various hosts (Ben Rhodes)
Duration: Approximately 50 minutes

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Introduction

In this heartfelt Thanksgiving episode of Pod Save America, hosts Jon Favreau, Jon Lovett, Dan Pfeiffer, and Tommy Vietor dive into listener-submitted questions from their subscriber Discord. The discussion spans crucial political topics such as trans rights, the role of progressive media, and even lighter subjects like fashion trends and favorite holiday movies. The hosts aim to provide insightful, no-bullshit conversations that help listeners navigate the complex political landscape.

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1. Engaging with the Democratic Party

Listener Question: “I'm on the left end of the spectrum, but I'm a Democrat because I have long believed that this party was the best viable option to hitch my wagon to, so to speak, after this election. Why is the Democratic Party still worth my time and energy?”
— Subscriber Ian ([03:08])

Discussion Highlights:

• Ben Rhodes emphasizes the two-party system in the U.S., noting the lack of viable alternatives:

  “In the US we have a two-party system for better or for worse. They haven't really figured out a viable path for an alternative.” ([03:32])

• Tommy Vietor suggests reforms like ranked-choice voting and encourages engagement within the Democratic Party to effect change:

  “Our job is to try in every election to get ourselves to the best choice possible and then make the choice in front of us at the national level.” ([04:00])

• Jon Favreau adds that engaging with the party doesn't mean you owe it allegiance, but acknowledges the importance of politics in shaping societal outcomes:

  “Politics affects us for good or bad times.” ([04:00])

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2. Trans Rights and Democratic Party Strategy

Listener Question: “I'm trans and I'm really worried about the ability of the Democratic Party to win while keeping me in mind. I would vote for them if they go quiet about trans issues. But do you think that they could turn against us or just stay silent as we lose our rights? If so, what can I practically do? Or am I out of luck?”
— Subscriber Jessica ([07:25])

Discussion Highlights:

• Tommy Vietor passionately defends the Democrats, condemning the notion that the party would abandon trans individuals:

  “I don't believe that [Democrats] will throw trans people under the bus. It should not happen. It is both... toxic... but also politically stupid.” ([08:04])

• He criticizes the right-wing media's manipulation of trans issues to create political distractions:

  “Why are we talking about trans bathrooms?... They have nothing to do with the day-to-day life for a trans person in America.” ([08:04])

• Jon Favreau highlights that no prominent Democrat has advocated for stripping trans rights, reinforcing the party's commitment:

  “I haven't seen any Democrats say we should compromise on any other... rights protections.” ([12:18])

• Ben Rhodes underscores the importance of framing debates around fairness without compromising core values:

  “We have to respond... make an argument that will resonate... without capitulating on tolerance and acceptance.” ([10:40])

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3. Joe Biden's Legacy and Foreign Policy Challenges

Listener Question: “Do you believe Biden's legacy will be similar to that of LBJ's, i.e., he had a lot of good domestic policy, but the one thing people will remember him by is his foreign policy (Gaza failure)?”
— Subscriber Jay Walker ([19:48])

Discussion Highlights:

• Ben Rhodes acknowledges Gaza as a significant blemish on Biden's foreign policy but commends his decision to end the Afghanistan war:

  “I believe that Gaza is and will continue to be a massive stain on Joe Biden's record... Joe Biden ended the war in Afghanistan, which no other president had the courage to do.” ([20:03])

• Tommy Vietor compares Biden to LBJ, noting that Biden's efforts to restore the country's soul are overshadowed by Trump's presidency:

  “Joe Biden's term, in which he wanted to restore the soul of the country and protect democracy, is sandwiched by Donald Trump.” ([22:12])

• The hosts discuss potential threats to Biden's legacy based on future policy reversals by a possible Trump administration, such as repealing key legislations and withdrawing from international agreements.

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4. Sustaining the Anti-Trump Coalition’s Energy

Listener Question: “Do you worry that we won't see the same energy behind the anti-Trump coalition as we did in 2017 going into 2025?”
— Subscriber (Unnamed) ([24:04])

Discussion Highlights:

• Jon Favreau believes the coalition's endurance depends on Trump’s actions and the form the opposition energy takes:

  “It depends on what Trump does and it depends on what form the energy takes... I would worry if people just tune out altogether.” ([24:16])

• Tommy Vietor emphasizes that relying solely on anti-Trump sentiment is insufficient for future elections, advocating for building a positive political vision:

  “We need to have... be excited about the vision of whoever we put forward. We just can't just... look inward.” ([25:45])

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5. Influencing the Democratic National Committee (DNC) Chair Selection

Listener Question: “What is the best way for us to influence who gets named the next DNC chair? Who to call/email? There are about 450 DNC members.”
— Subscriber Jay Walker ([35:01])

Discussion Highlights:

• Tommy Vietor and Ben Rhodes suggest grassroots efforts, such as writing notes to DNC members and organizing state-level support:

  “Your win number is 225 people. It's not a policy-making job. It's fundraising and grassroots and press.” ([35:16])

• Jon Favreau advises leveraging social media and targeted communication to make voices heard among political insiders:

  “The 450 members are... political insiders and they're probably on social media and very engaged in politics.” ([35:16])

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6. Supporting Left-Aligned, Non-Political Media

Listener Question: “I feel like the biggest right-wing podcasts/media are all 'not political.' How do we go about getting left-aligned, non-political media?”
— Subscriber Catherine ([27:29])

Discussion Highlights:

• Ben Rhodes argues that Democrats shouldn't be blamed for hosting guests with diverse views and highlights the importance of choosing the right platforms:

  “Democrats should not be attacked for going on shows... limits to this.” ([28:03])

• Tommy Vietor points out the cultural shift where progressive media outlets may avoid certain interviews to maintain audience appeal, urging the left to engage more authentically:

  “We need to build a political movement and a culture on the left in which you're welcome in those spaces.” ([30:09])

• Jon Favreau emphasizes the necessity for the left to embrace varied personalities and not alienate potential allies by hostile interactions:

  “If Democrats could respond... by being like, hey, that was stupid.” ([31:11])

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7. Lighter Topics: Fashion, Fitness, and Holiday Favorites

a. Fashion Trends: Skinny Jeans and Socks

• Listener Question: “Can I keep wearing skinny jeans in 2025?”
  — Subscriber Emily Selka ([37:05])

Discussion Highlights:

• Tommy Vietor humorously debates the relevance of skinny jeans amidst evolving fashion trends, ultimately encouraging listeners to wear what makes them comfortable:

  “But I can't see it. I have jeans blindness... wear whatever jeans you like.” ([37:42])

b. Fitness Routines

• Listener Question: “What are the guys' fitness routines?”
  — Subscriber Defiant Emily ([39:40])

Discussion Highlights:

• Tommy Vietor advocates for Pilates, sharing his positive experiences with the Reformer:

  “I'm becoming a Pilates person. I'm doing it all the time.” ([40:07])

• Jon Favreau and Ben Rhodes discuss their own fitness challenges and routines, emphasizing adaptability and personal comfort:

  “I'm going to try some crew socks now. But I'm not giving up on the skinnier jeans.” ([38:34])

c. Favorite Holiday Movies

• Listener Question: “What’s your favorite holiday movie?”
  — Subscriber Leah Kahan ([42:15])

Discussion Highlights:

• Ben Rhodes votes for National Lampoon's Christmas Vacation as his top choice.
• Tommy Vietor adds classics like Die Hard and The Nightmare Before Christmas to the list.
• Jon Favreau mentions Home Alone and A Christmas Story, discussing the nostalgia factor:

  “It's more of the nostalgia about remembering stuff from my youth.” ([42:53])

d. Anticipated 2025 Releases

• Listener Question: “What do you have to look forward to in 2025? Movie premieres, albums, games.”
  — Subscriber Maha ([43:08])

Discussion Highlights:

• Exciting TV releases like Andor Season Two, Severance Season Two, White Lotus Season Three, and The Last of Us Season Two.
• Anticipation for new movies, including Gladiator 2 and the Squid Game Season Two.
• Interest in upcoming albums and books, with mentions of artists like Ariana Grande and authors like Neal Stephenson.

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Conclusion

As the hosts wrap up the Thanksgiving Mailbag, they reflect on the importance of political engagement, community building, and maintaining a positive vision for the future. They also share personal anecdotes and lighter moments, fostering a sense of camaraderie and holiday spirit among listeners.

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Notable Quotes

• Ben Rhodes ([03:32]):
  “In the US we have a two-party system for better or for worse. They haven't really figured out a viable path for an alternative.”

• Tommy Vietor ([04:00]):
  “Our job is to try in every election to get ourselves to the best choice possible and then make the choice in front of us at the national level.”

• Tommy Vietor ([08:04]):
  “I don't believe that [Democrats] will throw trans people under the bus. It should not happen. It is both... toxic... but also politically stupid.”

• Ben Rhodes ([20:03]):
  “I believe that Gaza is and will continue to be a massive stain on Joe Biden's record... Joe Biden ended the war in Afghanistan, which no other president had the courage to do.”

• Jon Favreau ([24:16]):
  “It depends on what Trump does and it depends on what form the energy takes... I would worry if people just tune out altogether.”

• Ben Rhodes ([28:03]):
  “Democrats should not be attacked for going on shows... limits to this.”

---

Additional Resources

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  Access ad-free episodes, bonus content, and the subscriber Discord. Visit crooked.com/friends to join today.

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Thank you for tuning into this Thanksgiving episode of Pod Save America. We wish you a joyous holiday and look forward to continuing the conversation in our next episodes.

Transcript

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[Jon Lovett]

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There'S no safe like simplisaf. Welcome to Pod Save America. I'm Jon Favreau.

[Tommy Vitor]

I'm Jon Lovett.

[Ben Rhodes]

I'm Tommy Vitor.

[Jon Favreau]

Welcome to our annual Thanksgiving mailbag You know, it's a tradition here at Pod Save America. We pulled a lot of these questions from our subscriber Discord this year. Which reminds me, we're currently offering 25% off new annual subscriptions to friends of the pod deal gets you access to bonus pods, ad free Pod Save America episodes and more. You can sign [e-mail] friends also check out this week's Pod Save the World featuring Malala.

[Tommy Vitor]

Yeah, you got Malala.

[Ben Rhodes]

We got her. Ben sat down with her a couple of weeks ago. She's an executive producer on a film that's coming out about Afghanistan. It's supposed to be incredibly good.

[Jon Favreau]

She also talks about what happened when the Taliban took back Afghanistan in 2021, including her perspective on the fall of Kabul and the women's protest movement that followed.

[Tommy Vitor]

We just cut a joke about Malala.

[Jon Favreau]

Second one you've made this year. You had one in the book.

[Tommy Vitor]

Yeah, let's leave that one in and then keep going.

[Jon Favreau]

All right, thanks to everyone who sent in questions. Let's get into it. Subscriber Ian on our Discord asks. I'm on the left end of the spectrum, but I'm a Democrat because I have long believed that this party was the best viable option to, quote, hitch my wagon to, so to speak, after this election. Why is the Democratic Party still worth my time and energy? Ian, anyone want to take this one first?

[Ben Rhodes]

Yeah, I mean, I guess if Ian moved to the UK or somewhere when there's, oh, hey, pundit, where there's a bunch of parties that, that span the ideological spectrum, I could imagine thinking about this a little differently. But in the US we have a two party system for better or for worse. They haven't really figured out a viable path for an alternative. And so in practice, your choices are engage in the Democratic Party and make it better or don't. And I choose engagement even when I feel depressed about it.

[Jon Favreau]

There you go.

[Tommy Vitor]

Yeah, I mean, there are reforms like ranked choice voting that may open the door to other parties. There are local races where you can fight for a candidate of another party. I think our job is to try in every election to get ourselves to the best choice possible and then make the choice in front of us at the national level. That's the Democratic Party. And our job is to fight for a Democratic Party that can do the most good. And part of what it takes to do the most good is to win elections. And we have to do both. And it's hard and it requires nuance. It requires being receptive to all kinds of people to be open to questioning your priors and to be understanding of people you disagree with. But that's. That's the job we have to do.

[Jon Favreau]

Now, I just say, like, I don't think anyone should feel that they owe any political party their time and energy. I do think politics is worth our time and energy because whether we like it or not, politics affects us for good or bad times. Absolutely. Right. Like, you can. You can try building a third party if you want. Like, you're free to do that. The structural incentives in our political system weigh heavily against a third party succeeding. Very difficult, but you can try that. And I think part of the work of engaging is, like, you can work to change the party, support Democratic politicians who are closer to your views, and most importantly, recognize that political parties exist to win elections, which means that they try to reflect the views of a majority of voters. And if you're frustrated that the Democratic Party isn't progressive enough, the challenge isn't about persuading the official party so much as it's about persuading a majority of voters to move closer to where you are. And I think there's. I mean, it's easy because the Democratic Party is like the official. That's the party. That's the establishment. Democratic politicians represent it. And look, you can always pressure politicians and parties to. To change, but the reason they have the position is because they think, oh, this is where most people are.

[Ben Rhodes]

Yeah, look, the Democratic Party can't defy gravity. You know, we have to hold some space that we could be wrong and that it could evolve. And I know you know this. Love it because you've been queer media.

[Tommy Vitor]

I am. And actually, as long as I'm at this table, so are you too? No. I do think also, like, part of the challenge, and we'll talk about this with other specific issues, but part of the challenge is voters are not looking at a Democrat as a series of positions. And actually, there are ways in which I think sometimes we lose sight of the fact that a politician sometimes has the space to push forward and be more progressive than the electorate when they have the trust of the electorate on a bunch of other issues. And that really matters. Right. And I think right now we have lost that trust in a kind of broad way, and it makes it very difficult. It's why we're having a bunch of kind of ultimately, like, debates about whether it's trans issues or immigration that feel, like, deeply unsatisfying. Because I think part of it is that, like, there's a need to kind of step back and figure out, like, how do we build trust with people in a broader way so that they trust us when we wanna talk about difficult subjects where they may not agree? Right now, I don't think Democrats have the space to dance through life, as it were.

[Jon Favreau]

Yeah, I mean, I think perceptions of political parties are a combination of the positions that the politicians take, what they choose to talk about, and importantly how they choose to talk about it, and the how there is much more nuanced and that that's what is, I think, getting lost in a lot of this. All right, subscriber Jessica on Discord asks. I'm trans and I'm really worried about the ability of the Democratic Party to win. While keeping me in mind, I would vote for them if they go quiet about trans issues. But do you think that they could turn against us or just stay silent as we lose our rights? If so, what can I practically do? Or am I shit out of luck?

[Tommy Vitor]

So I'm very sorry that this person feels as though that's where we're at. I think that sucks. I think it sucks that we just went through a huge loss in which we lost voters for a lot of reasons. A broad swath of the electorate, different kinds of people from different walks of life and different experiences. And it's been in some debates like boiled down to, oh, Democrats need to moderate on the trans tran. The trans issue in quotes. Or that trans people need to go under the bus because there was a super PAC that had an ad that used a statement and a position that Kamala Harris took in 2020 to paint her as extreme and out of touch. An issue that has basically nothing to do with what the experience of day to day life for a trans person in America is now a stand in for the trans issue. And so I think, first of all, just that is a stupid way to have this conversation. That is a stupid. Like, are Democrats gonna throw trans people under the bus? I certainly hope not. I don't believe that that will happen. It should not happen. It is both, like, obviously toxic, like a terrible thing to do, but also just politically stupid. It's like we just like the Titanic is sinking. And it's like, I think we should pa. I think we should probably paint it a different color. I think that if it looked like maybe if it was like, if it looked like an iceberg, I think that's stupid. But beyond that, like, I think the truth is sometimes, especially when people want to blame identity politics for an issue, they blame either activists or left Democrats who they find annoying anyway, for what is actually a media creation by the right. Like, you look at what just happened in the past week. Why are we talking about trans bathrooms? It is not because Democrats decided to have a debate about trans bathrooms, because Nancy May saw an opportunity to raise money by scapegoating one member of Congress at the expense of trans people everywhere and their safety. And we have to respond. And so the question is, how do you respond? You can't just ignore it because then you look weak. And also you are not standing up for people that deserve a champion. You look at what AOC says and you say, all right, that's a path to not only respond, but also respond in a way that makes an argument that will be. That will hopefully resonate with a lot of people without being defensive and without acting as if the way you win people back who you've lost is by capitulating, like a core moral belief about tolerance and acceptance and the rights of people to live as they will. So I think that is instructive about the politics.

[Jon Favreau]

I just want to, like, level set with what we actually have heard and seen so far. A big part of it, as you just mentioned, obviously in the Sarah McBride situation is like right wing politicians, right wing media making it a thing. Sometimes it's mainstream media, like, realizing that covering the fight that's going on is can, you know, get more attention. And then I also think that there's like, there's some people who just defaulted to, oh, Democrats want to throw trans people under the bus. And I haven't seen any Democrats say that or suggest that at all. Right. There's two things that we're basically talking about since the election. One is Seth Moulton and a few others who have raised the issue of trans people competing in certain sports at certain levels. And then there's the ad, right, which was, again, government funded, gender affirming surgery for immigrants who are in detention for illegally crossing the border. That's the thing. Right? And so people have either debated that ad or criticized Seth or said, yeah, maybe he has a point and that's it. And I have not, I am not aware of any other Democrat who has said we should compromise on any other, like gender affirming care, basic rights protections, or anything like that. Maybe I'm wrong.

[Tommy Vitor]

I think there's like a. I think that's true about elected Democrats. I think there is like a kind of, I don't know, a pundit debate about had our Democrats lost the mainstream on this issue. There's op eds, there's debate. There's noise on social media, which obviously, yeah, we get Democrats get blamed for all the time. But I think I'm sure that that is what I'm just saying.

[Jon Favreau]

I haven't seen a policy proposal from a Democrat or even a Democratic pundit that's like we should ban a gender affirming care. We should ban, or we should ban it for children or protections or rights or anything like that.

[Ben Rhodes]

No. And actually I talked to Liz Smith about this last week on the show. There's a bunch of Democrats recently that actually successfully ran against Republican overreach on a lot of these issues. And I think you can make a compelling argument that's libertarian in a lot of ways about staying the fuck out of people's medical decisions and out of their lives and never allowing for discrimination in the workplace or in housing or in anywhere else. I think what people are talking, what Seth Moulton I think is trying to get at is there needs to be a more honest and open conversation about fairness in sports. And the solution to that question is not going to be one size fits all, fits all. It's not going to be the same policies for college kids that you have for 11 year olds. And those are probably gonna be sorted out in local communities and by local school districts, et cetera. But that we should also be very clear when we're debating about this, that what it would take to enforce some sort of draconian widespread ban, blanket ban on transgender athletes is what, like spot genital inspections of 10 year old kids? Is that what Republicans are fighting for? So like that's the kind of, that's the way you make the case against some of these policy ideas.

[Jon Favreau]

Well, and again like this, I think I mentioned this on one of these pods, but there's a great Vox piece after the election raising the question like, well, Biden had a policy that was like a compromise on sports and basically all these red states were trying to ban, do an outright ban, like Tommy just mentioned, on transgender athletes competing in sports. And the Biden administration policy was no blanket bans are allowed, prohibited. You can't do that. But individual schools can make exceptions for fairness and safety. And that has to depend on a lot of that depends on the age of the person. Right. And so like in most kids 10 or under, like that wouldn't apply. Right? Because. Because there's not an issue. Or certain sports wouldn't apply. Right. Because it doesn't. It's not a safety issue there. Right. Or it's not even a competition issue. And so that was the Biden proposal. And then, then, you know, folks on the left got mad about it, and folks on the right obviously got mad about it because they just want bans. And, you know, no one talked about it.

[Ben Rhodes]

They wanted the issue. The Republicans wanted the issue.

[Tommy Vitor]

Like, this does get back to, like, the trust issue, too, because it's like, you know, we have had trans visibility and acceptance in some quarters for a very short period of time, right? And we're in the middle of a backlash. And if, like, if what you had were Democrats out there saying, everything about. My view on this issue is about making sure that trans kids feel as though they can live as themselves and that kids who are trans can play sports when they're growing up, and that trans teens can access the care that their parents and doctors approve and trans adults are treated fairly and that trans people feel safe to go to the public restrooms and like, that trans people get to live full, enriched lives. And by the way, not just tolerated, but celebrated for the diversity they bring to our world and the good that it does. And in order to get there, we are willing to entertain that there are some difficult questions around competition at higher levels of. Of sports that. That we should reasonably, like, sort of talk about in recognition of the fact that that is a distraction from making sure trans people feel safe and supported and that there's growing acceptance instead of the back backsliding that we've seen. Like, if that was where we were at, I would say, okay, great. But I think that's why it's like, when. And I talked about this with Moulton, like, when someone like Seth Moulton just sort of says, well, like, I don't want a trans kid running over my daughter playing sports. Right? It's hostile, and you're targeting a tiny subset of the population and basically, like, kind of, I don't know, like, making this debate something like that. Sort of like in response to this election, which was brought about by so many different factors after an election in which Donald Trump lost the last time and gave no quarter on fucking anything.

[Jon Favreau]

Did you. I don't know if you talked to him about this, because I haven't heard the interview yet, but did you see he did an interview with Rolling Stone where he said he's like, the New York Times called me up and didn't say, like, what happened in the election? What went wrong? What do Democrats need to do? He's like, they specifically asked me about the issue with trans rights and asked what I thought about sports. Well, he's like, and it became this thing. He's like, he's like, I've, you know, I've, like sponsored and voted for all this, like, you know, pro trans rights legislation. And I still think what he said, even though it was in response to a question, was like, just the fucking off. Worst way to say it.

[Tommy Vitor]

Yeah, I mean, you'll. You'll hear it. You'll hear it before this came out. And what I said to him, I was like, he's like, we have tether bate. And I just said, like, you said it in a dickish way.

[Jon Favreau]

He did.

[Tommy Vitor]

And then, and then he's like, well, now that's the problem, right? People are policing how we say things. I said, well, I'm not. You're not a undecided voter. You're a member of Congress. People are holding you to a higher standard anyway, you can listen to the conversation. But like, I hear that and I'm just. That, that, I think, is why I think sometimes people are like, wait a second, we just lost the country and we're talking about transports. Like, that's where you went from here. It just feels like a side issue.

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[Jon Favreau]

Subscribersam asks do you believe Biden's legacy will be similar to that of LBJ's, aka he had a lot of good domestic policy, but the one thing people will remember him by is his foreign policy in parentheses. Gaza failure.

[Ben Rhodes]

Tough question.

[Jon Favreau]

Was that from you?

[Tommy Vitor]

From Ben R. Yeah, Ben R. I.

[Ben Rhodes]

Well, I mean, look, you guys know this. I believe that Gaza is and will continue to be a massive stain on Joe Biden's record. I don't know. The LBJ comparison is not totally fair here because Joe Biden ended the war in Afghanistan, which no other president had the courage to do, which was the right thing to do unequivocally, in my view. Obviously it hurt him politically because of the way the withdrawal was handled and well. And also there's also, I think, a fair argument that ending a 20 year war is always going to end really ugly and messy no matter what. And Joe Biden was just the one who did it. The harder question for Biden about his legacy, though, it's not just Gaza. It's what happens to parts of it that Trump doesn't like. Is he going to repeal the ira? Is he going to repeal the CHIPS Act? I doubt he repeals the highway bill, but we'll see. Trump will almost certainly pull us out of the Paris Climate Accords. That could go in concert with rolling back parts of the ira. He'll almost certainly cut off additional funding to the Ukrainians. That doesn't mean he can force them to take a deal with Putin, but it seems like that's the path things are headed. So I don't know. I think, but I think that Gaza, it was an inexplicable policy decision six months ago, let alone the just unequivocal support for Netanyahu now. I'll never understand it until the day I die.

[Tommy Vitor]

Yeah, look, I think Joe Biden's. More broadly, it's like, I think we don't know. And we don't know in part because we don't know how bad this next Trump term will be. But the fact that Joe Biden's term, in which he wanted to restore the soul of the country and protect democracy, is sandwiched by Donald Trump is. And that will be in part because Joe Biden did not step down and waited so long to step aside, is right now the central story of his presidency. And that's a shame because he did a lot of really great things. But.

[Jon Favreau]

Well, and that's the other difference between him and lbj, because LBJ decided not to run and step down much earlier, still wasn't enough for Humphrey, but an.

[Tommy Vitor]

Argument that was used to keep Joe Biden in the race for about a year and a half.

[Jon Favreau]

But, yeah, that's a tough part.

[Ben Rhodes]

And just to clarify one thing, I mean, early on, the days after October 7, of course, support for Israel was the right thing. I'm not saying that every step along the way he's been wrong, but, I mean, the just utter inability to put any pressure on Netanyahu to save lives is what I'm getting at, because there's people who listen to the show and send me texts about how critical I am of Netanyahu and the war. And there's a lot of nuance to this, but I don't think nuance is really required. When you look at the last few months and how clearly devastating this has become for the people in Gaza.

[Tommy Vitor]

I also found myself, especially when we were debating Joe Biden's age, when Joe Biden was the candidate, that one thing that I found myself saying was, well, you can't point to me a place where Joe Biden's age prevented him from succeeding domestically. Right. Like he did what we asked him to do. He passed more than anyone expected him to pass. He played his hand domestically as well as any president could have. And that was one of the reasons it was actually so hard to challenge him if he refused to step aside. But over the last year, the fact that he is such a terrible communicator when so much of what this has been about is communication has been, like, a really difficult part about it.

[Ben Rhodes]

And I. I don't think it's a communications issue.

[Tommy Vitor]

I think it's a Policy problem? Well, I think it's both a, it's, obviously it's a policy problem, but it's all like, I think one of the.

[Jon Lovett]

Reasons, well, Gaza, Gaza's a gala.

[Tommy Vitor]

Sees a policy problem.

[Jon Favreau]

He's just saying writ large.

[Tommy Vitor]

Writ large. He's been such an ineffective communicator. And I think Kamala paid dearly for the fact that we just didn't have somebody making an argument for the last year. And that was like a terrible, a terrible cost and that's his fault.

[Jon Favreau]

So I'll put you guys down for a top five, top five percent. BidCo on Twitter asks, do you worry that we won't see the same energy behind the anti Trump coalition as we did in 2017 going into 2025?

[Ben Rhodes]

Why don't you answer a couple of these?

[Jon Favreau]

I mean, I think it'll, I think a lot of it depends on what Trump does and it depends on what form the energy takes. Like if Trump does what he promised to do during the campaign and the anti Trump coalition reacts by like tuning out of politics altogether or just fighting with each other the whole time. Yeah, then I would worry. I also think the response to Trump may be different this time because we have learned what works and what doesn't. You know, like we, we have won a midterm when he's been president. We have beaten him in a presidential election. And I'd love to see, you know, another huge women's march in January. But if it's smaller than before, like, that doesn't really worry me. If Trump tries to take away our health care again or enact a national abortion ban or order the military to shoot protesters and we don't organize and then like make noise and flood the streets in response to that. Yeah, then I would worry. So some of it's just like lessons learned from having gone through this before. And I could see some of those lessons just taking us in a different direction. I would only worry if people just tune out altogether.

[Tommy Vitor]

Yeah, I mean, I think we're sort of relying on the fact that like the hyper engaged voters that we thought would deliver the presidency are the reason we had faith in them is because they showed up in 2018 and 2022. We're kind of counting on that. I do think in terms of 2028, I think one lesson of this race is counting on anti Trump or anti Republican fervor. It just will not be enough. And we need to have.

[Jon Favreau]

And we're not running against him again.

[Tommy Vitor]

And we're not running against him. Of course but also, like, we just. We need to be excited about the vision of whoever we put forward. And it. We just can't just. It has to. We need to. We need to. We need to look inward.

[Jon Favreau]

Tommy, I have a question for you from Zippy by Day.

[Ben Rhodes]

Okay.

[Jon Favreau]

Zippy by Day. Also, a subscriber asks. I'm beyond sick after 2024. The only thing worse is Dem still hitting me up for money. I feel like there's a culture issue with the dnc, maybe politics in general, but how do we become the party that doesn't come off as fake?

[Ben Rhodes]

So is it the money parts of the problem or the fakeness of the problem?

[Jon Favreau]

I was going to say because both could be problems. I think both.

[Ben Rhodes]

You know, the money stuff. I don't know who's. Who we take this up with. You've been pitching Democrat plus for a while where you just pay a flat fee and you don't get any more fundraising ads. I think that's worth it. But yeah, the fundraising has gotten offensive and infuriating. And it's not just like a people like us thing. It's like you hear this from everyone. You donate to one campaign and suddenly you're. Your contact information is sold on a list to every other interest group. And it really does feel bad in a deeper way. That's a huge problem.

[Jon Favreau]

Can we make it an issue in the DNC chair race?

[Ben Rhodes]

That's a good idea.

[Tommy Vitor]

That's a good idea. We should do that. Yeah. I think it, like, speaks to something. It's like, it, like it speaks to kind of the Democratic Party's problem writ large too, which is like, like really good at doing something. Doing the best version of something that sucks. Like, that. We're really good at that. Like, let's figure out the best version of this thing that's not working and do it 100%. And that's what we're doing with the fundraising. And I do think it speaks to, like, the fakeness. Like, it's like. Like how, like you're somebody that really cares about politics and you get a thousand texts. It's like, it's Hakeem Jeffries. And if you don't do this, I will. I swear. I swear to God. The things I'll do.

[Ben Rhodes]

Yeah.

[Jon Favreau]

The post election ones are just fucking. That's just like a real.

[Tommy Vitor]

How dare you? I don't even know who these people are. Let's start naming names.

[Jon Favreau]

It's not. All right. Another good one from subscriber Jessica. I feel like we talk about supporting left Media. But the thing is that the biggest right wing podcasts, slash media are all, quote, not political. When you look at Dave Portnoy, I knew him as the guy who does pizza reviews and I knew Andrew Schultz as a decently funny comedian. How do we go about getting left aligned, non political media?

[Ben Rhodes]

I mean, there's a couple pieces of this. The first is something we've talked about a lot, which is that just the Democrats should not be attacked for going on shows. So if you go on a barstool show, if you go on Joe Rogan, you are not responsible for your interviewer's views. Obviously, there's limits to this. We're not recommending that 2028 primary candidates go on the Daily Stormer or like.

[Jon Favreau]

You know, or even the Daily Wire.

[Ben Rhodes]

I mean, do the Daily Wire, that's actually fine. But I also think that there's another part of this that's a deeper problem, which was Joe Rogan. And Dave Portnoy, the head of Barstool Sports, felt excited enough or proud enough of supporting Trump to talk about it publicly. And there were a lot of progressive Democrats in places of influence, in media in particular, who did not feel that way. Part of that was Gaza, I think part of it was Biden. But there was a cultural shift where there are some hosts. I'm not going to name names because I don't want to be a dick to anybody, but there's like some big named very popular culture or sort of politics adjacent shows that would not take interviews with Kamala Harris, we know this from talking to her team. And part of it was they felt like they might be penalized by their audiences. They, or they just felt like it wasn't fun or exciting and they just didn't want to be a part of it. And that sucks.

[Jon Favreau]

I also think it's even the way the question's phrased. Left aligned, non political media, that's, that's a tough one.

[Jon Lovett]

Yeah, right.

[Jon Favreau]

Like, I think, I think you're right. Like Tommy, like, you want to look for funny people who aren't huge Trump fans, basically. But you have to be open to them. When I say you, the left has to be open to them. Like not agreeing with us on everything, having some heterodox views on politics, making some jokes that we don't like or even find offensive. Like, this is the, I mean, everyone's like, why Joe Rogan? Where's our Joe Rogan? It's like, well, we had Joe Rogan, he was our Joe Rogan. And then, and then everyone Said, fuck you. No. And they made a big fuss out of Bernie Sanders going on his show.

[Ben Rhodes]

Also, everyone loved that Stavros clip last week. I wonder how many of those people know that his old show is called Come Town Every Year. I probably weren't having Hillary Clinton that in 2016.

[Tommy Vitor]

You know, I was getting, like, messages for years. Go on, Come Town. Go on, Come Town.

[Ben Rhodes]

Super funny show.

[Tommy Vitor]

They're really funny. But, yeah, it's that there's something about, like, Democrats being like, how do we appeal to men? How do we reach the men? And none of the people that do ever ask that question. And so it's like, no, you're not going to artificially create a bunch of apolitical, gigantic hits that are then receptive to having Democratic candidates on. You have to build a political movement and, like, a culture on the left in which you're welcome in those spaces because you're not seen as being an imperious and scolding sour jerk.

[Jon Favreau]

Well, just the way you made that comment to Moulton where you say, well, you said that in a dickish way. Like, if Democrats could respond to people who say shit like that by being like, hey, that was dickish, or like, oh, that was not. You thought that was funny. I didn't think that was funny. That was stupid. Right. As opposed to being like, you are bad and we never want to see you again.

[Tommy Vitor]

Yeah.

[Jon Favreau]

Or like, I'm going to. It's. I mean, how many times over the last couple years has there been, like, entire news cycles devoted to criticism of a comedian for saying something stupid?

[Ben Rhodes]

Yeah. And the other question is, you know, someone like Kai Senat is the biggest streamer on Twitch or one of them. Who in the Democratic Party is interesting enough that he would want to talk to them? I'm not totally sure.

[Jon Favreau]

Yeah, right.

[Tommy Vitor]

Yeah.

[Jon Favreau]

Interesting enough. Or, like, willing to risk just getting a question that's like, go on, goof around.

[Ben Rhodes]

I mean, you. You had, you know, listen, we're not, like, praising Trump here, but he was asking Theo Vaughn questions about what it was like to do cocaine. That was good content.

[Tommy Vitor]

Yeah. It's also something about, again, it goes to me, to this deeper issue of what Democrats stand for and in ways that people believe it. Because the reason I think Bernie Sanders can go to these places and succeed in these places is because, you know, he has a core motivating reason. He's in politics that drives everything he does. So when he's asked a question, he can bring it back to that. People expect that. He also has the freedom to think out loud, get some things wrong, make mistakes, talk about things. Because people know where his heart is and, like, people don't know where we are. Like, I don't know. I don't. Like what. What is the. Like the. What is the central cause of, like, the consensus Democratic Party right now? I don't know. I don't know. That's a huge problem.

[Jon Favreau]

Yeah. Well, it's also always evolving, and it's based on what everyone will, you know, will abide.

[Jon Lovett]

Emmy award winner Coleman Domingo returns to television in the Netflix limited series the Madness. Domingo portrays a media pundit, Muncie Daniels, caught in a deadly conspiracy. He must fight for his innocence and his life after he stumbles upon a murder deep in the woods of the Poconos Mountains and discovers he's the only witness to a crime. As the walls close in, Muncie strives to reconnect with his estranged family and his lost ideals in order to survive. Watch the Madness November 28th only on Netflix.

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[Jon Lovett]

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[Ben Rhodes]

All right, here's what I'm going to do this week. Okay, this hurts me because I despise both of these teams. But we got jaden Daniels over 241 pass yards. I feel like that's going to happen. And then Derek Henry over 83 and a half rush yards. So look again. I hate the commanders. I hate Baltimore. No offense. I mean offense, I don't really care. To all of you listening, I'm a Patriots fan and I'm an asshole and I endorse that. But Price Picks is super fun because it makes you care about games you wouldn't otherwise watch.

[Jon Favreau]

Well, best of luck. We'll check in with you to see how you did.

[Ben Rhodes]

Thank you.

[Jon Lovett]

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[Jon Favreau]

Subscriber Jay Walker what is the best way for us to influence who gets named the next DNC chair? Who to call slash email. There's about 450 DNC members.

[Tommy Vitor]

So you write your note, you put it around a brick.

[Ben Rhodes]

You know, I read this one, my gut reaction was like ah, maybe there is none. But then, I don't know. I mean it's about 450 voting DNC members. Your win number is 225 people. It's not a policy making job. It's fundraising and grassroots and press. And so you could imagine a scenario where there's some kind of groundswell of like online support or grassroots support. People start organizing in states on behalf of a candidate and all of a sudden people are like, let's say think that there's a huge Martin O'Malley fan base out there and they think that he might be able to raise small dollar money from a new crop of people like that could influence opinions.

[Jon Favreau]

Yeah, well, I mean the 450 members are like almost by definition political insiders and they're probably on social media and very engaged in politics. So this is actually one place where you know, people, average people can make some, some noise and probably the people who are going to vote on this will hear you. I was looking online for like a list of all the Democratic National Committee members. They published a list in from like 2020 when they do the elections. But I don't, I assume that as we get into the actual contest at some point they'll publicize the list of members for 2024. But you know, it's, it's every state party chair, it's every you know, elected gets a, like there's just A lot of, a lot of people that we know are DNC members, but then there's some at large ones. Subscriber Catherine, what's the best way to get people interested in running for local office? Something like vsa, but for hyper local districts to start ensuring they don't fall to the radical right, what's the best way to get people invested and interested?

[Ben Rhodes]

Easiest one all day. Run for something. I know, great organization.

[Jon Favreau]

Yeah. They do local races, they do younger candidates.

[Ben Rhodes]

What's their website? Runforsomething.org I assume. Runforsomething.net runforsomething.net a rare dot net.

[Tommy Vitor]

Yeah, I also like, it's not a criticism of that question. Specifically. We get a lot of questions that are about like, how do I make other people feel something? And I think sometimes it's like, I think the only question you have to answer is are you going to run for something? Right. Dear caller, like, do you want to run for school board? But seriously, how do I get other people to do something? Why don't you do it?

[Ben Rhodes]

You're in a real yell at the questioner mood, huh?

[Tommy Vitor]

Sometimes. I don't know. No disrespect, no disrespect. Just a thought. Just a thought. Why not you? Why not now?

[Jon Favreau]

All right, some lighter questions. This is from subscriber Defiant Emily. Can I keep wearing skinny jeans in 2025? Was this for my wife?

[Ben Rhodes]

When could you. When do we stop being allowed? Can someone give me some backstory?

[Tommy Vitor]

So skinny jeans had their moment. Now the pants have gotten gigantic. At least for Gen Z. They're just, they're gigantic and things are happening. I can say I love it, but trends are trends. I do think that, like, I sometimes don't understand what we mean by skinny jeans because sometimes I think it means, oh, do you mean like super skin tight spandexy, see the whole leg jeans, which I've never personally been a fan of, but I wear skinnier jeans. And sometimes I feel like, is the mockery about me? Is everyone talking about me? Are my jeans part of the problem? And I can't see it. I have jeans blindness. Because, you know, because you get to a point in your life where your style freezes and you then, like, for example, we all wear no show socks. Right. That your first wave millennials.

[Jon Favreau]

And, and I will continue to.

[Tommy Vitor]

Well, I start, I was like, you know what? I'm going to try to wear some crew socks. I'm going to evolve on the sock front, not currently.

[Jon Favreau]

Okay, just gave you a quick look.

[Tommy Vitor]

Eyes up here, buddy. But I was like, you know what? I'm going to try it. And I felt super uncomfortable because it wasn't my style. I felt like I was trying to seem like something I'm not. But then I started, I kept at it, and I was like, you know what? I kind of like these crew socks now. But I'm not giving up on the skinnier jeans. I'm not.

[Ben Rhodes]

I think wear whatever socks you want. But I did see an article once about how cringe no show socks were, and I wanted to find that person and tell them how lame they were. Because if you care about someone else's socks, you are the problem. But the jeans thing. Yeah, I know what you're saying. There was, like, a jeggings phase.

[Tommy Vitor]

Yeah.

[Ben Rhodes]

But now I feel like everyone's a carpenter.

[Tommy Vitor]

Yeah, there's a lot. Yes. There's a lot of very wide leg, a lot of loops for hammers from people who have never done a job that didn't involve email.

[Jon Favreau]

And then, like, are you painting today?

[Tommy Vitor]

Yeah. Lot of, like, a lot of Foreman running around. Yeah. A lot of poor people.

[Ben Rhodes]

A lot of jeans my mom could have worn when dropping me off at soccer practice in 1996. Around Los Angeles, that's been a thing.

[Tommy Vitor]

Yeah. But you know what? Wear whatever jeans you like.

[Ben Rhodes]

Yeah, you do.

[Jon Favreau]

You defiant. Emily Selka on Twitter asks, in a nod to the popularity and influence of the bro podcast in the 2024 election, what are the guys fitness routines?

[Ben Rhodes]

I'm in a tweener phase. I used to be going to this one gym. Not really going there anymore. I had to figure out a new thing. I'm bored. I had, like, a couple lingering injuries that have been annoying. You guys got any advice?

[Tommy Vitor]

I do have some advice.

[Ben Rhodes]

Tell me.

[Tommy Vitor]

Pilates. Okay.

[Ben Rhodes]

Hannah's related to Pilates.

[Tommy Vitor]

Pilates, Pilates all day. I'm becoming a Pilates person. I'm doing it all the time. It's awesome. I'm on the Reformer. You know, it's a tough class because it's you and 10 of the most, like, kind of strong, sharp, pointy women you'll ever see in your whole life. Just points. You didn't know people could have new points. Just so pointy.

[Ben Rhodes]

The points.

[Tommy Vitor]

Elbows. Just abs. Points. Abs to a point. I mean, they're just so strong. They're so strong. And you think, well, I've been going to these, you know, bro fitness classes and doing my squats with my big, heavy weights. Haven't been doing the stabilizing muscles. Haven't been doing the Isometrics. Those are the muscles that are going to keep you alive. Keep from falling out of tubs.

[Jon Favreau]

Would we say those are broy?

[Tommy Vitor]

I think. I mean, I did. I don't know, kind of bro.

[Jon Favreau]

I'm just going to throw a lot of towels.

[Tommy Vitor]

Snapping in the locker room.

[Ben Rhodes]

Yeah. I was telling these guys before we started recording, I had to wear a tux this weekend that I hadn't worn in years. And I was holding space in the. In the middle.

[Tommy Vitor]

In the middle.

[Jon Favreau]

I. Yeah. So I did Barry's for a couple years, and then I was like, I got so tired of that. And now I just. I've stopped running basically because I'm getting old and it's like, too much on my knees. I need to find a new, like, cardio thing. I guess I could just take a walk.

[Ben Rhodes]

Well.

[Tommy Vitor]

But I feel like George W. Bush switched to bikes.

[Jon Favreau]

Bikes is interesting. I could do bikes.

[Tommy Vitor]

But I trust you on a bike.

[Jon Favreau]

No, I don't either.

[Ben Rhodes]

No.

[Tommy Vitor]

Well, I'm checking his phone. Right into the canyons.

[Jon Favreau]

I got to. I got to teach two boys to ride a bike soon. That's going to be.

[Ben Rhodes]

Well, that part me some training. You got training wheels, too?

[Jon Favreau]

Okay, yeah. Maybe training wheels for all of us. But now I just. I work out, like, four or five days a week.

[Ben Rhodes]

Okay.

[Jon Favreau]

Lifting kind of stuff, light lifting. But also half of it now is like, fixing my shoulder from when it broke four years ago. And I'm still. I'm still trying to, like, do physical therapy on that while also lifting.

[Tommy Vitor]

I'm doing. I'm doing. I'm doing. Still doing Barry's a lot, and I'm doing Pilates a lot. And that combination is great. And I love it. I'm so into the reformer. Let's go, people.

[Jon Favreau]

Let's go. Leah Kahan on Instagram asks favorite holiday movie, National Lampoon's Christmas Vacation for me. Great.

[Ben Rhodes]

One number. That's, I think, probably number one. What else did we put up there?

[Tommy Vitor]

Die Hard.

[Ben Rhodes]

It's always up there. There's the Die Hard Discourse. One that doesn't get a lot of shine, but I feel like is quite clearly what a holiday movie is. The Nightmare Before Christmas to people like that.

[Tommy Vitor]

Yes. That's a great choice. That's a great choice. And I do think that's a holiday classic.

[Jon Favreau]

I haven't seen that in a long time.

[Tommy Vitor]

That's a great choice.

[Jon Favreau]

Christmas Story.

[Ben Rhodes]

It's a one that's always on and I'll always watch it. And I'm always like, meh.

[Jon Favreau]

I know, it's.

[Jon Lovett]

It's more of the.

[Jon Favreau]

It's the nostalgia.

[Ben Rhodes]

Yes.

[Jon Favreau]

About, like, remembering stuff from my youth.

[Jon Lovett]

Because when you.

[Jon Favreau]

When you're old enough to really watch it again, you're just like, what is this story? It was not. It's. It's not really cohesive.

[Tommy Vitor]

No, no. Well, a lot of it's a series of vignettes, which is why it's okay for it to always be.

[Ben Rhodes]

Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Jon Favreau]

It is a series.

[Ben Rhodes]

There's a lot of leg lamp stuff.

[Tommy Vitor]

Yeah, a lot of leg lamp stuff. But I love vacation. I think that's right. Christmas vacation. It is awesome.

[Jon Favreau]

So funny.

[Ben Rhodes]

Polar Express. That's kind of mid.

[Tommy Vitor]

Well, it's on the list.

[Ben Rhodes]

I'm Googling here.

[Tommy Vitor]

Let's see. Top. Top.

[Jon Favreau]

Alpha is great.

[Jon Lovett]

Spirited.

[Ben Rhodes]

I don't know if anyone saw that. It's kind of a new one. What's his name Tomorrow?

[Tommy Vitor]

Hanukkah movies. No.

[Jon Favreau]

What about Home Alone?

[Tommy Vitor]

Oh, yeah. Yes, of course. It's a Christmas movie. Although, as I've. As I've often said, that is a movie about a child defending his home from his parents having to pay their insurance deductible. And I don't think that gets enough discussion because those parents look like they have a great umbrel.

[Jon Favreau]

All right, last question from Maha on our Discord. What do you have to look forward to in 2025? Movie premieres, albums, games.

[Tommy Vitor]

So Andor season two. Cannot wait. Cannot wait for Andor season two. Severance season two.

[Jon Favreau]

Me too.

[Tommy Vitor]

Severance season two. Holy shit. I cannot believe we get more severance.

[Ben Rhodes]

It was a great cliffhanger ending, too.

[Tommy Vitor]

It's incredible.

[Ben Rhodes]

Incredible.

[Tommy Vitor]

Incredible.

[Jon Lovett]

White Lotus season three.

[Tommy Vitor]

White Lotus season three.

[Jon Favreau]

Yes. And Last of Us, Season two.

[Tommy Vitor]

Oh, wow. That's a great year of television.

[Jon Favreau]

Good year.

[Tommy Vitor]

You know, they always say it's over. It's never over.

[Jon Favreau]

They're always. They're also thrown in a new Game of Thrones prequel.

[Tommy Vitor]

Okay.

[Jon Favreau]

I know it's going to be out there. Something of the Night of the Seven Kingdoms or something.

[Ben Rhodes]

Okay, I'll watch it for sure.

[Tommy Vitor]

For sure.

[Ben Rhodes]

I'm very excited to watch say Nothing. Patrick, Rad and Keefe's book that's been adapted. I think it's on Hulu right now. I'm very excited to see Gladiator 2. You think you guys have seen it, right?

[Tommy Vitor]

I haven't seen it. I haven't seen it.

[Ben Rhodes]

I cannot wait.

[Jon Favreau]

You should hold space for.

[Tommy Vitor]

I'm going to see Gladiator 2. The only question is, do I see Gladiator 2 before I see Wicked a second time. But I'll probably see Gladiator 2 first.

[Jon Favreau]

I'm going to go see Wicked.

[Ben Rhodes]

The funny thing about anticipating albums is that's like just not how it works anymore. All of a sudden it's just a Friday, poor Drake is doing a twitch stream with some Canadian nerd and all of a sudden Kendrick just bodies him for like the 13th time. That's what happened this past week.

[Jon Favreau]

I imagine we'll get Reputation Taylor's version at some point.

[Tommy Vitor]

There's the Villiers album.

[Ben Rhodes]

Does she have to steal that one back? From which one?

[Tommy Vitor]

Keep going.

[Ben Rhodes]

Does she have to do that one back from Scooter Braun? Wasn't that the whole point of doing the last one? Yeah, there's a new I'm reading in his pocket.

[Tommy Vitor]

It just came out. But Neal Stephenson has a new book called Polo Stan, which I'm very excited to read.

[Jon Favreau]

Polo Stan.

[Tommy Vitor]

Neil Stevenson, a great science fiction writer. He wrote this book Termination Shock, which was. There were two books about climate change at around the same time. Ministry of the Future and Termination Shock. Termination Shock was the action version and the other one was boring. So I really like Neal Stephenson. I'm excited about that.

[Ben Rhodes]

Did you know the guy who did Parasite has kind of like a follow up movie coming out mixed with diarrhea.

[Jon Favreau]

Ones that are left to happen.

[Ben Rhodes]

Well, it's. It's his next film.

[Tommy Vitor]

We also get. Speaking of Korean cinema, we get season two of Squid Game. Squid Game, I believe. Check the facts. But I think that's right. I think that's right.

[Jon Favreau]

Can someone fact check Mr. Lovett, please?

[Tommy Vitor]

Can we check the facts? Can we get Daniel Dale in here of this year?

[Jon Favreau]

Wow.

[Tommy Vitor]

We'll watch it even sooner.

[Ben Rhodes]

Even better.

[Tommy Vitor]

That's so exciting.

[Jon Favreau]

I think that's it for 2025. I don't think I'm looking forward to anything else.

[Tommy Vitor]

That's what I got. That's what I'm looking forward to trying.

[Ben Rhodes]

To think that's about. Right.

[Tommy Vitor]

I'm also going to read Taffy Broder Ackman's new book.

[Jon Favreau]

Oh, that looked good.

[Tommy Vitor]

I'm going to read that because it's called like the Long Island Challenge. Long Island Problem. The Long Island Issue. Long Island Compromise.

[Ben Rhodes]

Apparently Wicked Part 2 comes out in November 2025. I feel like all of a sudden we're doing a New Year's episode when really this is like a Thanksgiving.

[Jon Favreau]

I thought about that too.

[Tommy Vitor]

I wonder what they're gonna do with that Wicked. That Wicked Part 2. Because the famous challenge of Wicked is that the first act is incredible and the second act, you're like, what are we doing here?

[Ben Rhodes]

Oh, really?

[Tommy Vitor]

What are we doing here? But I think we'll get a new Ariana song. That's my prediction.

[Jon Favreau]

Hold space for that and I will hold space for everything. Happy Thanksgiving. That's our episode and we'll talk to you guys next week.

[Jon Lovett]

If you want to listen to Pod Save America ad free or get access to our subscriber discord and exclusive podcasts, consider joining our Friends of the pod [e-mail] friends or subscribe on Apple Podcasts directly from the Pod Save America feed. Also, be sure to follow Pod Save America on TikTok, Instagram, Twitter, and YouTube for full episodes, bonus content, and more. And before you hit that next button, you can help boost this episode by.

[Jon Favreau]

Leaving us a review and by sharing.

[Jon Lovett]

It with friends and family. Pod Save America is a Crooked Media production. Our producers are David Toledo and Saul Rubin. Our associate producer is Farah Safaree. Reed Churlin is our executive editor, and Adrian Hill is our executive producer. The show is mixed and edited by Andrew Chadwick. Jordan Cantor is our sound engineer, with audio support from Kyle Seglin and Charlotte Landis. Writing support by Hallie Kiefer Madeline Herringer is our head of news and programming. Matt DeGroote is our head of production. Andy Taff is our executive assistant. Thanks to our digital team. Elijah Cohn, Haley Jones, Phoebe Bradford, Joseph Dutra, Ben Heathcote, Mia Kelman, Molly Lobel, Kirill Pelaviev and David Toles.

[Tommy Vitor]

The funny thing about the holding space thing is that it's actually, I watched.

[Jon Favreau]

The video like half a dozen more times this weekend.

[Tommy Vitor]

Well, I think what makes it so funny is the reporter says people are really holding space for the lyrics to define character, which in and of itself is obviously like, slightly annoying and silly, but not that big a deal. It's that Cynthia Revo says, I didn't know that was happening.

[Jon Favreau]

Which is like, not just like, I didn't know.

[Ben Rhodes]

Like, no, she, she reacts like it's some, like, she got an Oscar.

[Tommy Vitor]

Like, like she residentially finds out, like, hey, this is being used to, like, secret prisoners out of Korea, right?

[Ben Rhodes]

We're using an Abu Ghraib to torture people.

[Jon Favreau]

And then, and then she always doesn't. She's like, is that, is that happening? That happening? And then she goes, yeah, there's a few posts.

[Tommy Vitor]

Well, it's also like, I'm in queer media. I'm in queer media. So I'm an expert on people holding space and like, it's, it's just like, it's such a subjective and, and like, ephemeral description. It's like people are holding space for the lyrics. I actually believe, if you take away the jargon, when I think one of the reasons people are loving wicked so much is it is about a fascistic state and it's rising and like, and the people deciding that this person was evil, but they're all wrong. And the wrong is, like, fully accepted.

[Jon Favreau]

I have no idea what the story is.

[Tommy Vitor]

It's the prequel.

[Jon Favreau]

I know that part. That's all I know.

[Tommy Vitor]

And it's beautiful and it's incredibly well made.

[Ben Rhodes]

Yeah, but if you just said, yeah, a lot of people are listening to the blah, blah blah song because it means a lot to them in this weird political moment.

[Tommy Vitor]

And the idea that you'd be like, I didn't know that was happening is such a funny thing to be like.

[Ben Rhodes]

Honestly, just holding the nail, holding the one finger.

[Jon Favreau]

Yeah. Ariana Grande having no fucking idea what's going on. Like, I want this to be in a time capsule about, like, this period in politics in the United States. Because it's perfect.

[Jon Lovett]

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