Pod Save America: "The Making of America’s Most Prominent Anti-Vaxxer"

Date: December 7, 2025
Host: Alex Wagner (with interviewee Michael Scherer)
Summary by Podcast Summarizer

Overview

This episode of Pod Save America explores the transformation and influence of Robert F. Kennedy Jr.—now serving as Secretary of Health and Human Services (HHS) under Donald Trump—who evolved from an environmental crusader to America’s most notorious anti-vaccine activist. Atlantic staff writer Michael Scherer joins host Alex Wagner to discuss RFK Jr.'s complex journey, his controversial leadership at HHS, relationships with Trump and the broader right, family drama, and the consequences for American science and public health.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Introduction & Context ([02:18]–[04:38])

• RFK Jr.’s Evolution:
  Wagner introduces RFK Jr. as a once-respected environmental lawyer and Kennedy heir turned “loudest anti-vaxxer in American politics,” now wielding enormous power with direct consequences for federal vaccine policy.

• Timely News Peg:
  Wagner cites a major policy shift: a federal vaccine committee has just recommended delaying hepatitis B vaccinations for infants, a reversal of longstanding policy and a clear win for Kennedy’s agenda.

2. The “How Did RFK Jr. Get Here?” Question ([04:40]–[09:22])

• Shorthand Narratives:
  Scherer critiques the media’s “anti-vaxxer, brain worm, sex scandal, heroin addict” shortcuts and aims to map RFK’s ideological journey.

• Political Opportunism vs. Self-Perception:
  Kennedy transitioned, Scherer argues, from 1990s/2000s Democrat royalty (“the next senator from New York, the environmental savior”—[06:03]) to Trump ally via “opportunism” and self-justification.

  "He was given a chance to do what he has always wanted to do, which is to change how we approach medical policy... and he took it." – Michael Scherer ([07:18])

• Personal Sacrifice:
  Kennedy “lost his family,” friends, and standing in environmental and medical circles as he shifted farther from the mainstream.

3. Conspiracism Rooted in Activism ([09:22]–[13:49])

• History of Suspicion:
  Scherer tracks Kennedy’s worldview back to:

  • Childhood in the conspiracy-rich ’60s (JFK’s assassination),
  • Life as a trial lawyer exposing “evil” corporations,
  • Environmentalism focused on contamination and systems harm.

• Transition to Vaccine Paranoia:
  Mothers concerned about thimerosal (mercury in vaccines) approached RFK at environmental speeches—his gateway to the vaccine/autism conspiracy.

  “His environmental work was always about contamination...” – Michael Scherer ([11:18]) “He comes to believe pharmaceutical companies are knowingly seeding our health system with things that are hurting kids.” – Michael Scherer ([12:14])

• Merging Anti-Pharma Populism & Anti-Vax:
  RFK combines genuine bipartisan grievances about “Big Pharma” and chronic disease with his conspiratorial vaccine focus.

4. The Kennedy Legacy and Psychological Profile ([13:49]–[18:36])

• Family Tragedy & Hero Complex:
  The traumatic loss of his uncle (JFK) and father (RFK) as a child shaped a lifelong sense of destiny, hardship, and redemptive quest.

  • RFK Jr. identifies with King Arthur: “He fancies himself a young King Arthur...on a solo quest.” – Alex Wagner ([14:14])

• Addiction & Redemption:
  Early hard drug use at 15, recovery in his 20s; identity as someone “who’s returned from hell” with a “unique opportunity for redemption.”

  “He comes out of that in the 1980s, and I think the rest of his life can be understood as trying to reclaim the birthright.” – Michael Scherer ([17:18])

5. Policy Power and Trump Partnership ([20:29]–[27:41])

• Trump-RFK Relationship:
  Wagner and Scherer detail the odd couple dynamic. Trump, indifferent or even at odds with hardcore anti-vax ideas, provides RFK with a platform. For Kennedy, Trump is a “useful idiot;” for Trump, Kennedy is a needed win with a certain constituency.

  • The collaboration was catalyzed after the 2024 attempted assassination of Trump; their relationship has vacillated from potential VP speculation to strong partnership in an “anti-deep state” HHS.

  "His relationship with Trump is like when you're dating a girl and you realize you start liking them more and more." – Michael Scherer ([25:07])

• Case Study—The Tylenol/Autism Announcement:

  • Trump’s FDA issues a warning on Tylenol in pregnancy (“a very increased risk of autism”—Trump mangling scientific nuance, [21:17]).
  • Scherer: RFK Jr. himself cautioned Trump against oversimplifying; “don’t tell people not to take Tylenol,” emphasizing nuance (role reversal vs. public narrative, [26:32]).

6. RFK Jr.'s Personality in Practice ([27:44]–[33:02])

• Eccentric Health Routines & Persona:

  • “Enormously ripped,” on testosterone therapy, daily 12-step meetings, peculiar diets (e.g., "gulping down a quart of plain organic grass-fed yogurt"—Alex Wagner, [29:44]).
  • Brings sauerkraut to restaurants, works out in jeans.
  • Defensive about health practices; refrains from prescribing his regimen.

• Social Interactions:

  • Warm and charming one moment, hostile and accusatory the next (“a scorpion and the frog situation”—Michael Scherer, [32:50]).
  • Shares qualities with Trump—transactional and unpredictable.

  “If my wife was treating me like that, it would not be a healthy relationship.” – Alex Wagner ([33:44])

7. The Breakdown of Scientific Debate ([35:33]–[43:59])

• Kennedy’s View on Science:

  • RFK Jr.: “The entire purpose of science is to search for existential truths. It’s not subjective, it should be objective. I believe science is a place where you can find unity.” ([35:33])
  • Scherer and Wagner probe if this is true unity or simply demanding capitulation; evidence points to the latter.

• Collapse of Medical Consensus:

  • COVID turbocharged polarization in public health.
  • Kennedy is firing CDC officials who disagree, not genuinely seeking dialogue.
  • Scherer calls for empathy, nuanced engagement with dissent—but admits Kennedy’s own willingness to “listen” is qualified with much self-assurance.

  “...the only path forward is to try and re-engage in a way.” – Michael Scherer ([41:52])

• Test of Reality:

  • Scherer questions: What if you are wrong, and people die due to lowered vaccination rates? Kennedy insists: “I would listen...but here are the reasons I’m not going to be wrong.” ([42:06])

8. Real-World Impact: Pandemics, Policy, and Death Toll ([45:13]–[51:49])

• Policy Experiments:

  • Florida, Idaho, and other red states dropping vaccine requirements; uptick in non-medical exemptions.
  • HHS/CDC now poised to delay hepatitis B vaccine for newborns—a major break with decades of public health.

  “Quite a fucking roll of the dice, Michael. Quite a fucking roll of the dice.” – Alex Wagner ([51:49])

• Health Professionals’ Perspective:

  • Paul Offit’s chilling outlook:

    “I don’t think there’s any way to regain that trust other than have the viruses do the education and the bacteria do the education. And then people will realize they paid way too high a cost.” ([48:01])

9. Scandal, Personality, and Legacy ([55:19]–[61:21])

• Scandal Parade:

  • Bear and whale carcass stories; brain worm; affair with journalist Olivia Nuzzi; struggles with addiction—Kennedy frames the coverage as a media attempt to “disqualify” him and distract from his message.

  “He describes himself as having returned from hell, which is an unusual thing for someone to say. And I think the demons are still very present.” – Michael Scherer ([59:45])

• Kennedy’s Public Acknowledgment:

  • RFK Jr.: “I have so many skeletons in my closet that if they could vote, I’d be king of the world. I wasn’t a choir boy.” ([60:43]–[60:49])

• Institutional Legacy:

  • Wagner nails the stakes:

    “The distrust, the paranoia, the erosion of belief in our institutions is going to be one of the longer lasting [legacies].” ([61:48])

  • Scherer notes we are only in the “early innings” of Kennedy’s plans—the transformation of HHS and vaccine policy will increase.

Notable Quotes with Timestamps

• “He convinced himself that Trump was not the malignant narcissist that he would describe him as before…” – Michael Scherer [08:09]
• “His heroic tale is diverted...everything since then has been trying to reclaim the birthright.” – Michael Scherer [17:18]
• “RFK Jr. combines what started as anti-COVID vaccine…with broader bipartisan concerns about Big Pharma, chronic disease, and diet.” – Michael Scherer [13:28]
• “He comes to believe that pharmaceutical companies are knowingly seeding our health system with things that are hurting kids.” – Michael Scherer [12:14]
• “There is a ferocious drive in him...He wanted me to describe in the magazine that he had won the argument.” – Michael Scherer [32:34]
• “He would say: you are not accounting for the enormous harm being done that is not being measured right now that we don’t know about…” – Michael Scherer [45:27]
• “He describes himself as having returned from hell...the demons are still very present.” – Michael Scherer [59:45]
• “The only person in this story with real power is RFK Jr., and he is...maintaining a dignified silence.” – Helen Lewis, Atlantic, via Wagner [57:51]

Memorable/Anecdotal Moments

• RFK Jr. eating whole quarts of plain yogurt with a spoon on Air Force One, then gulping directly from the container ([29:44]).
• Insistence on alternative health habits: traveling with sauerkraut, working out in jeans ([29:44] and [30:07]).
• Scherer being cast as both trusted confidant and adversary by Kennedy—relationship described as “hot and cold” ([32:34]).
• Scherer’s story of Kennedy likening his relationship with Trump to “dating a girl and liking her more and more” ([25:07]).
• Wagner’s recap of Offit’s view: only real-world outbreaks and deaths will reverse public distrust in science ([48:01]).

Outlook & Closing Thoughts

• Institutional Fragility:
  The consequences of RFK Jr.’s anti-vaccine crusade—now with institutional power—are not hypothetical but already unfolding. Loss of public trust in science, experimental changes to vaccine schedules, and a coming reckoning as disease rates shift and outbreaks loom.

• The Kennedy Mythos Re-envisioned:

  • RFK Jr. sees himself on a sacred, often solitary quest—but his narrative, as Scherer and Wagner note, is one with enormous external costs.

• Critical Need for Accountability:

  • As the episode closes, Wagner stresses the necessity of understanding the person at the center of this public health transformation for journalists and voters alike ([62:41]).
  • Scherer warns: “We are still early innings here…Kennedy has many more plans to continue, specifically on the vaccine stuff, which is…transforming the way medical research is done.” ([62:41])

Recommended Next Steps:

• Read Michael Scherer’s Atlantic cover story for further detail (theatlantic.com).
• Stay engaged: the consequences of RFK Jr.’s actions at HHS and the erosion of trust in science will continue to shape American life for years to come.