The Old Man and the Clemency

Summary

Pod Save America – Episode: The Old Man and the Clemency
Release Date: December 3, 2024

Hosts: Jon Favreau, Jon Lovett, Tommy Vietor

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Overview

In this episode of Pod Save America, the hosts delve into the contentious political landscape surrounding President Joe Biden's pardon of his son, Hunter Biden. They critically examine former President Donald Trump's nominations of Cash Patel for FBI Director and Pete Hegseth for Defense Secretary, highlighting significant concerns about their qualifications and potential impacts on U.S. governance. Additionally, the episode explores Bernie Sanders' unexpected alliance with billionaire Elon Musk, particularly in the context of defense spending reform. The hosts strategize on how Democrats can effectively respond to these high-stakes political maneuvers.

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Joe Biden's Pardoning of Hunter Biden

The episode begins with a deep dive into President Joe Biden's controversial decision to pardon his son, Hunter Biden, who was convicted on federal tax charges and lying about his drug addiction.

Jon Favreau [05:49]:
"President Biden has decided to issue a full and unconditional pardon for his son Hunter, covering a decade of offenses."

Tommy Vietor [05:49]:
"Joe Biden made it worse for himself by breaking his campaign promise, damaging his reputation in the process."

The hosts express frustration over Biden's prior assurances during his campaign that he would not use his pardon power for family members. They discuss the implications of this move, suggesting it undermines trust in political norms and fuels cynicism regarding the rule of law.

Jon Lovett [08:50]:
"I would have liked some acknowledgement that this is because he's worried about future abuses of power."

The timing and breadth of the pardon are scrutinized, with the hosts emphasizing how it contrasts sharply with Biden's earlier stance on maintaining the integrity of presidential pardons.

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Trump's Nomination of Cash Patel as FBI Director

Transitioning to former President Donald Trump's nomination of Cash Patel for FBI Director, the hosts express significant concern over Patel's qualifications and suitability for the role.

Jon Lovett [27:00]:
"It's tough... Patel gets to be the worst one."

Tommy Vietor [29:00]:
"He's absolutely unqualified for this job. He's untrustworthy and a disgrace to American citizens."

Patel's background as a Trump loyalist and his involvement in the classified documents investigation are highlighted. The discussion underscores Patel's lack of experience within the FBI and his problematic past, including allegations of fabricating information critical to national security operations.

Jon Favreau [30:45]:
"Or the hostage gets shot at because they had to abandon the mission."

The hosts paint a picture of Patel as a figure who prioritizes allegiance to Trump over the integrity and effectiveness required for leading the FBI, raising alarms about national security implications.

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Trump's Nomination of Pete Hegseth as Defense Secretary

The conversation shifts to Trump's nomination of Pete Hegseth for Defense Secretary, who faces serious allegations regarding his conduct and leadership capabilities.

Tommy Vietor [35:02]:
"You are an abuser of women... your mother wrote an email calling you that."

Jon Lovett [36:38]:
"Putting this dude who can't run that organization in charge of the Department of Defense seems bad."

Hegseth's tenure at veterans organizations is critiqued for fostering a culture of sexual misconduct and mismanagement. The hosts discuss how these personal failings and lack of relevant experience make him an unsuitable candidate for overseeing the Department of Defense, which manages a vast workforce and substantial budget.

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Democratic Strategy Against Trump's Nominees

The hosts strategize on how Democrats should respond to Trump's problematic nominations, emphasizing the need for a targeted and informed approach.

Tommy Vietor [45:03]:
"They care about people being full of shit. They care about corruption."

Jon Favreau [47:10]:
"It's about how this would affect people... their lack of qualifications is going to hurt you by having them there."

The consensus is that Democrats must publicize the dangers these nominees pose to national institutions and frame their opposition around national security and effective governance rather than personal attacks. The importance of mobilizing public opinion and leveraging media to highlight the risks is stressed as crucial for blocking these confirmations.

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Bernie Sanders and Elon Musk Collaboration

An unexpected twist in the episode is Bernie Sanders' collaboration with billionaire Elon Musk on defense spending reform, raising questions about ideological alignment and potential compromises.

Tommy Vietor [49:47]:
"Democrats have long wanted to cut the Pentagon budget as they should."

The hosts ponder the implications of this alliance, questioning whether it dilutes Sanders' principles or enhances the Democratic agenda by aligning with influential figures to push for meaningful reforms. They advocate for Democrats to maintain their reformist stance while holding both allies and opponents accountable.

Jon Favreau [51:19]:
"We should put forward a list of waste, fraud, and abuse in government and present it to all of them, see if they do it."

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Notable Quotes

• Jon Lovett [07:21]:
  "Hunter's pardon is expansive here. It covers… goes back a decade."

• Tommy Vietor [12:11]:
  "If you go by the UCMJ, these are big deals."

• Jon Favreau [15:19]:
  "They've put our health and lives in danger and our security."

• Tommy Vietor [45:03]:
  "They care about people being full of shit. They care about corruption."

• Jon Favreau [47:10]:
  "It's about how this would affect people... their lack of qualifications is going to hurt you by having them there."

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Conclusion

The episode wraps up with a call to action for listeners to stay informed and engaged in the political process. The hosts emphasize the importance of opposing unqualified and dangerous nominees to protect national institutions and uphold democratic norms. They encourage active participation in public discourse to ensure accountability and the integrity of the U.S. government.

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This summary captures the key discussions, insights, and conclusions from the Pod Save America episode "The Old Man and the Clemency." Notable quotes are included with speaker attribution and timestamps to provide depth and context for those who haven't listened to the episode.

Transcript

[Jon Favreau]

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[Jon Lovett]

I'm Jon Levitt.

[Tommy Vitor]

And Tommy Vitor.

[Jon Favreau]

On today's show, Donald Trump says he's going to replace FBI Director Chris Wray with Cash Patel, who said he wants to prosecute journalists and Trump critics. Fun Defense secretary nominee Pete Hegseth faces newly reported allegations about what a shitty person he is, including from his mom. And Bernie Sanders finally finds common cause with a billionaire. Even crazier, it's Elon Musk.

[Jon Lovett]

Here's the question I had after reading the news today is who had a rougher Thanksgiving with the family? Joe Biden being buttonholed about pardoning his son, or Pete Hegseth dealing with his mother's letter in the New York Times.

[Tommy Vitor]

Well, the letters from like 2018.

[Jon Lovett]

I know, but it sort of came up this week.

[Jon Favreau]

And the pardon was after Thanksgiving.

[Jon Lovett]

Well, yeah, of course it was. You spent. You spent a weekend being fucking hammered by your whole family for a pardon. You do it Sunday night, too. Just get off my goddamn back.

[Jon Favreau]

Anyway, so Bernie found common cause with billionaire Elon Musk. We'll talk about that. We'll get into all the do's and doges of collaborating with oligarchs to cut defense spending. I want you guys to know that Reid told me he wrote that line as a personal challenge to my dignity.

[Tommy Vitor]

That was tough.

[Jon Lovett]

Really?

[Jon Favreau]

Challenge accepted.

[Jon Lovett]

Who won that?

[Jon Favreau]

All right, that's for your Reid. But first, I hope everyone had a lovely Thanksgiving. Why are you laughing?

[Jon Lovett]

Just funny. The news.

[Jon Favreau]

Donald Trump commemorated the holiday by sending wishes to all of us radical left lunatics who worked so hard to destroy this country. Looks like we failed. He also posted an homage to National Lampoon's Christmas Vacation, which we had mentioned is one of our favorite Christmas movies, certainly mine. Where he pops out of a deep fake Joe Biden's turkey and dances to ymca. I think it's some of his best work.

[Tommy Vitor]

It was very funny. I don't think he makes them. I think they steal them from the Internet.

[Jon Favreau]

No, you don't think.

[Tommy Vitor]

I don't think his campaign makes them either. Just rip them off of Reddit.

[Jon Favreau]

Yeah, I think that's probably right. I found Trump's staff announcements less compelling. He said he'll appoint the fathers of two of his son in laws to big positions. Mossad Boulos, the Lebanese born father of Tiffany Trump's husband, Michael, will be senior advisor to the President on Arab and Middle Eastern affairs. He got a lot of expertise there, Tommy.

[Tommy Vitor]

Not that I can tell.

[Jon Favreau]

I think he did run for Parliament. Businessman in Lebanon.

[Tommy Vitor]

Yeah, he lost.

[Jon Favreau]

And Charles Kushner, the former real estate developer and convicted felon who's Jared's father, will be ambassador to France. Yeah, a reminder that Charles Kushner is the guy who retaliated against his own sister for cooperating with federal investigators looking into his business practices by soliciting a prostitute to sleep with her husband, filming it, and mailing her the tape.

[Jon Lovett]

Honestly? Yes, terrible. But also, I don't know, something you can kind of see Benjamin Franklin doing some straight up creative if he had the technology.

[Tommy Vitor]

I think they didn't want the brother in law to testify in a financial fraud case against him, too. So there's a lot of depth to this.

[Jon Favreau]

Trump pardoned him in 2020, and now he, if confirmed, is off to France. Not to be outdone in the special favors for family members category, Joe Biden made the biggest nepotism news of the weekend when he announced a pardon for his son Hunter, something he repeatedly said during the campaign he would not do. Earlier this year, Hunter pled guilty to federal tax charges in Los Angeles and was found guilty in a federal court in Delaware for lying about his drug addiction. On his application to buy a gun, the president released a long statement saying he'd come to the conclusion that Hunter's prosecution had been political the whole time. And that, quote, there has been an effort to break Hunter, who has been five and a half years sober, even in the face of unrelenting attacks and selective prosecution, in trying to break Hunter, They've tried to break me, and there's no reason to believe it will stop here. Enough is enough. I hope Americans will understand why a father and a president would come to this decision. All right, I got two Americans right here. Do you guys understand? What do you think?

[Tommy Vitor]

On a human level, obviously, I get it. It's not just a father pardoning his son. It's a dad who lost a baby girl as an infant. Beau Biden passed away recently. It's also probably true on the merits that Hunter got harsher treatment because of his last name, but it's also the fact that President Biden lied and repeatedly lied and said he wouldn't pardon Hunter or commute a sentence. He had his press secretary lie on his behalf. Biden's supporters held up Joe Biden's refusal to pardon Hunter as an example of his commitment to the rule of law, in contrast with Trump. But NBC News reported that when they decided to put this out there and say that Biden wasn't gonna pardon his son, actually, Biden and his top aides knew that it was still an open question. And so now we. Everyone looks stupid. Everyone looks like they're full of shit. And Republicans are gonna use this to argue that it was politics as usual when Democrats warned about Trump's corruption or threat to the rule of law or, you know, the threat to democracy. And I think that's the piece of this I am most frustrated with, which is Joe Biden looking like a typical lying politician. And I think that leads to a cynical feeling that all politicians are bad and they're all the same, and that this is just par for the Course. And so I'm not really worried that this is gonna make it easier for Trump to be corrupt or to ignore the rule of law himself. He was already gonna do it. He'd already named Matt Gaetz to lead the Department of Justice.

[Jon Lovett]

He campaigned on it, already hinted at using the pardon power for more than a hint.

[Tommy Vitor]

Right, Right.

[Jon Favreau]

Literally a campaign promise. Yeah.

[Tommy Vitor]

But also, I mean, Hunter's pardon is expansive here. It covers. Goes back a decade. So the right wingers. I listened to Ben Shapiro this morning, like, they're all saying, what this shows is that Joe Biden was in on the take the whole time that he was getting money from Hunter's business dealings because he pardoned this decade's worth of time. And now I think Joe Biden damaged his own reputation in service of doing something understandable on a human level for his son. And he also part, you know, damaged the Democratic Party's reputation. And the question I have is, is Hunter the only one getting saved here? What about, like, Dr. Fauci? What about Liz Cheney, who's getting told that she should be tried for treason?

[Jon Favreau]

Can I. Can I make a point about that? Because this is. This is the, like, the main thing that I've been thinking of, and I was been thinking about it even before the Hunter pardon was announced. If Joe Biden had come out either over the weekend or in several weeks, or maybe he'll do this before he leaves and says, like, look, I take it seriously that Donald Trump campaigned on prosecuting people he doesn't agree with and throwing them in jail, and Cash Patel and Matt Gaetz and all these people show that he's gonna carry through. And so I am issuing a full blanket pardon for all of these people who have been targets and who have been on Trump's enemies list. First of all, I think if he does do that, it makes the Hunter pardon seem more acceptable to me. And if he doesn't do that, then I think it's even more infuriating that he saved his son and not a whole bunch of other people who were just government servants doing their job.

[Jon Lovett]

Right. Yeah, that's my. That's my. Because, look, we joked about it in the past, and I. Look, whether or not Biden actually, in his mind, believed he was going to try to not do this, or on some level, he always knew he would do it. I don't know, but I thought he was going to do this. I, Like, I felt like this was something.

[Jon Favreau]

I don't know. Yeah, well, I feel like a fucking fool, you know, that's what makes me mad about it.

[Jon Lovett]

Well, like, but, you know, there is sort of. To me, I was just thinking about this specific pardon, like, and there have been, like, I don't know. There, there. The presidential pardon is. Power is expansive. And presidents have used it in different ways, some more corrupt than others, some just outright corrupt. Right. We've seen that. And sometimes presidents use it like President Obama used it, like President Biden used it. Right. For. For clemency and pardons for people convicted of nonviolent drug offenses, for people that were kicked out of the military for being gay. Then you have pardons that are kind of like, I don't know, they're not. They are in service of an abuse of power. You have Trump's pardons of a bunch of people that were involved in crimes around him. You have George H.W. bush's pardons around Iran Contra. Then you have these kind of like, corrupt hand of God pardons that are just like, I'm just doing a favor. I'm saying fuck it on my way out the door.

[Tommy Vitor]

You ever read the Jimmy Carter ones?

[Jon Lovett]

What are the Jimmy.

[Tommy Vitor]

They're incredible.

[Jon Favreau]

Keep going.

[Tommy Vitor]

I'll tell you later.

[Jon Lovett]

But, like, there's, there's, there's the Mark Rich pardon, there's the Roger Clinton pardon. And then I put this pardon in that list just like, it's a fuck it, last out the door pardon. Actually, the Charles Kushner one is like that for sure. Two, what's strange about this is, A, it comes now. B, there's no acknowledgement in the statement that part of the rationale should be that Donald Trump is about to become president. Right. The statement is very kind of like, I don't know, like, kind of imperious or sympathy inducing. And it's like, oh, pity me. Like, he's been sober for a long time. There's a lot of people on whom, like, the gears of justice have, like, turned while they were trying desperately to maintain their sobriety and no pardons for them.

[Tommy Vitor]

Can I just point out, too, on that point, when Joe Biden decided to run in 2019, Hunter had already gone through a lot of these challenges. And so the time you could make a decision that would protect Hunter Biden from the kind of political glare and from Republican attacks was then.

[Jon Favreau]

I mean, I'm sorry to say that I think that Joe Biden is a tragic figure. And I think that there are many good parts of. I mean, love. You talked about this back in the whole post debate, is he gonna drop out thing. The two Joe Biden's kind of thing. But I do think, like, he has shown incredible decency at times, and I really feel for what he's gone through and what his family has gone through. They've gone through hell. Like, none of us can imagine what they've gone through. But, like, his ego again and again has, like, gotten in the way. And when push comes to shove, it's like, well, I'm gonna do what's good for. I'm gonna run for president again, even though it's fucking CR to do that, and, like, I shouldn't do it, and blah, blah, blah. I'm just gonna do it, you know? And now we're all here and, like, this, to me is, like, in that category.

[Jon Lovett]

And it's also the timing. I do think the timing matters. Like, if this did come on Christmas Eve or it did come in a couple weeks after he'd done some kind of pardons or something around being afraid of Donald Trump abusing his office, it might have been different.

[Jon Favreau]

Do you guys have a guess on the timing or have you read anything?

[Tommy Vitor]

I thought it was because of the sentencing. One of the sentencings is December 12th for the gun charges. The other is December, December 16th for tax evasion. So I figured he just didn't want him to go to jail. He just wanted to sort it out. Now, I know.

[Jon Favreau]

I saw that, too. But then I thought, this is what's confusing about this, the full and unconditional pardon. Because you could have imagined a scenario where Hunter gets sentenced and then Biden commutes the sentence, or, you know, says that he's going to serve less or whatever else and waits for it. But if you're going to do the full 10 years, full and unconditional pardon we haven't really seen in this country since Ford pardoned Nixon that even I was reading that even Trump's pardons were, like, pardoning all of his cronies and pals and family members for, like, specific crimes. And this was everything. It does make the argument that this was about Trump coming, returning to power and going after Hunter, like, more salient. In which case you'd think, why don't a whole bunch of other people Trump's gonna go after get the same thing?

[Jon Lovett]

Exactly. And by the way, it also, like, Hunter pleaded guilty and was convicted on crimes that are ancillary to the kind of core conservative critique, the core sleaziness of Hunter, Biden, which is the burisma stuff, and some of the trading of influence. Right. Which were not part of these charges. And now that Slate is wiped clean. So of course conservatives are going to say, see, Joe Biden is just protecting himself.

[Tommy Vitor]

Yeah, I think they assumed that it was just going to be lawfare. But yeah, I agree. I mean, Joe Biden made it worse for himself, for his own reputation. I don't, I do not believe. I've never seen any evidence that suggests that Joe Biden was getting money from Hunter Biden's business dealings. Save some for the Big Guy email. None of it makes any sense. None of it has been squared with like financial records or other information that I think would have made, would have proved this case.

[Jon Lovett]

Yeah. So that's why it's just like. So now he's done this. Okay. If in the next couple of weeks Joe Biden uses the pardon power again, it will always be in the context of this Hunter Biden pardon, the sort of strange decision to put this out on a Sunday night and will also, by the way, also comes at a moment when we're about to have a debate about Cash Patel and about abuse of the Justice Department and abuse of the FBI. Now, if anybody uses the Hunter Biden pardon as a justification for approving these fucking bozos, they always wanted that permission. And like, I don't.

[Jon Favreau]

They don't need.

[Jon Lovett]

They don't need it. So I'm not like, they're like, oh, you've just given them. I don't care about that.

[Tommy Vitor]

I don't care. I care about the internal credibility of the Democratic Party and people who fought for Joe Biden to be president.

[Jon Favreau]

Can I ask you guys? Because I, it obviously bothers all three of us. I've had like, friends, family members, be like, who cares about this? Like, if I was Biden, I'd do it too. And look, if, like, I would pardon my sons probably if I was in that position. It's still wrong. Like, I mean, I hope I wouldn't. I hope I wouldn't be in that position. But like, I don't know. Do you think the political effect, I mean, Tommy, you raised the point that you're worried about the credibility of the Democratic Party. We just went through an election where people decided, eh, don't really care much about norms and institutions and democracy as much as they care about inflation and other issues that affect their lives directly. Do you think conversely, that this would actually piss people off?

[Tommy Vitor]

Yes, very much. I think they care about people being full of shit. They care about corruption. They care about hypocrisy. My guess is that if you polled people right now, it would be the majority of people would understand it on a human level, but that support for this decision would kind of track Joe Biden's approval. But then you'd lose a bunch of Democrats.

[Jon Lovett]

Right.

[Tommy Vitor]

Because we, I think, believe in good government. And so I don't know, I just do not think this is going to wear well over time. I don't know that this will be one of the top five things that we talk about, but I do think it's a tough way to go out.

[Jon Favreau]

Yeah. When you're, it's hard to when you're at the bottom there. So do you know his approval rating right now? So Trump's approval rating when he left office after inciting an insurrection and trying to overturn the election was 38%. Joe Biden right now is sitting at 37%.

[Jon Lovett]

I guess for me, like, I do think that what happens in the next couple of weeks matters for what this pardon looks like in hindsight. If, if he doesn't like, we have a short window for Joe Biden to use presidential authority to do everything he can to protect the country against abuses of power by Donald Trump and his cronies. And if he doesn't use the pardon power in the next couple weeks, and what we're left with is Hunter Biden doesn't get to be subjected to kind of capricious right wingers in the Department of Justice. But all these other people do, as you said, Liz Cheney, Fauci, Mark Milley, journalist, whoever it may be, that will be, I think, quite an indictment of this pardon. I am right now mostly frustrated by the timing of it and the kind of, I don't know, the kind of the falseness of the statement which doesn't acknowledge that this is like, I don't know what Joe Biden would have done if Kamala Harris won. Maybe he would have done this anyway. But I would have liked some acknowledgement that this is because he's worried about future abuses of power. And I would have wanted this to be in the context of all these other people that Donald Trump has threatened.

[Jon Favreau]

You know what I was thinking? Should have done it during the campaign. Boy, would it have given Kamala an opportunity to finally break from Biden.

[Tommy Vitor]

Yeah, that's a good call.

[Jon Favreau]

Kamala the cop could have come down hard on that one.

[Tommy Vitor]

I will walk this back.

[Jon Lovett]

That's right. That's right. Turn a bug into a feature, I guess.

[Jon Favreau]

One more thing before we like the pardon power is crazy.

[Jon Lovett]

Yeah.

[Jon Favreau]

By the way.

[Tommy Vitor]

Yeah.

[Jon Favreau]

And like, I think, first of all.

[Tommy Vitor]

I think upheld recently by the Supreme Court.

[Jon Favreau]

Right. We have learned over the last eight years now, if something is a norm and it's important, maybe make it a law. Right, because the norms are, the norms are gone. Trump doesn't go abide by norms. No one seemed to care. He campaigned on not abiding by norms. No one seemed to care. No one seemed to care that he promised to pardon people who assaulted police officers on their way to overturn an election that was fine. That didn't ruin Trump.

[Jon Lovett]

Well, he, this is what I mean by hinting though, right? He, he, he never said he would like basically not exactly describe who would get the party say the worst people wouldn't.

[Jon Favreau]

1, 1, 1 reporter at the national association of Black Journalists said even the ones who assaulted police officers, he's like.

[Jon Lovett]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, I guess that's true.

[Jon Favreau]

So, but anyway, I do think Steve, Representative Steve Cohen, Democrat, tweeted that he has had a constitutional amendment to reform pardon power so that it bans pardons for the president's family, staff, crimes committed for their benefit. It's a constitutional amendment. We can't barely keep the government open, so whatever. But it did make me think, I'm like, yeah, if he's like, I've also had no Republican co sponsors in eight years on this proposal. He's like, if anyone wants to join. But I do think like, I think the pardon power is like so ripe for abuse and yeah, I'd be for a constitutional amendment that would maybe rein it in a bit.

[Jon Lovett]

If you go back and look, I mean it not just rip, it's been abused. It's so often, often abused if you go back and so I was just reading about pardons and just for the fun of it and just reading what Nixon was saying about why he was pardoning Jimmy Hoffa. And by the way, it sort of, you know, probably ultimately was not to Jimmy Hoffa's benefit because where he go. But you know, it's like, yeah, you know, careful what you wish for. But he's just basically saying like we got to do this because it's basically helping us in the 72 election.

[Jon Favreau]

Wait, Tommy, before we move on, can you give us the Jimmy Carter ones?

[Tommy Vitor]

Well, I hope these are right because I just got them off of Twitter. But G. Gordon lady Peter Yarrow from Peter Paul and Mary who did something I don't know the details of with a 14 year old. The Vietnam War draft resistors, all of them blanket Jefferson Davis of the Confederacy wouldn't have gotten my play so wild set there. I mean look, yeah, big picture I just, it's. Look, we had this fight over norms, institutions and trust in government. We lost. But I do think this erodes people's faith in the justice system. It erodes people's faith in my belief that the prosecutions of Donald Trump were fair. Joe Biden has been championing the rules based international order and norms and institutions, and then he jettisons them when his son needs a party, a pardon, or.

[Jon Lovett]

When our party, that's a party, gonna be quite a party for him tonight.

[Tommy Vitor]

Or when Bibi Netanyahu is the one getting prosecuted for war crimes and not Vladimir Putin.

[Jon Lovett]

Right.

[Tommy Vitor]

I mean, just like it's very situational.

[Jon Favreau]

Yeah. I mean, yeah, he could have, he could have come out and pardoned Trump and Hunter at the same time on, on political press.

[Tommy Vitor]

That would have been actually hilarious.

[Jon Favreau]

You could have. Because this gets to your problem, Tommy, that like, if, if you're going to argue that the Justice Department, by the way, Biden's Justice Department unfairly targeted Hunter Biden, and that Hunter Biden would never have been targeted were he not the President's son, then you can look at Alvin Bragg's case, of course, and think that like, yes, what Trump did was illegal and it's good that he got convicted because he broke the law. But would he, would someone like Trump have gotten targeted if he was not President Trump?

[Jon Lovett]

Yeah, I mean, I'm not. I know, I know.

[Jon Favreau]

I'm not arguing against you. I'm just saying it's why, like, you don't have to, you don't have to think like it has a political effect or it gives the Republicans ammunition or anything else to just think like, sometimes things are just wrong if we believe in, if we believe in laws and everything else is just wrong.

[Jon Lovett]

This is why, again, like, as I said, like weeks ago, I think Joe Biden gets one. Pardon your son, Fuck it. It's your fuck it pardon. Everybody will understand. But the statement is what's fucking killing me.

[Tommy Vitor]

And just to knowingly lie about it and to string a bunch of people.

[Jon Favreau]

Along and make your staff lie about it. His press secretary lied about it all the time.

[Jon Lovett]

So just say, I originally had not planned to do this. Donald Trump winning has made me nervous that they will try to use my son to get at me and score political points. It's a dangerous time. I'm going to pardon my son Hunter. I'm also issuing pardons for anyone that Donald Trump or those who he's planning to put in position of authority have been threatened with political prosecutions. We do not do political prosecutions, with.

[Jon Favreau]

The major exception of Pod Save America.

[Jon Lovett]

Yeah.

[Jon Favreau]

All right.

[Jon Lovett]

Yeah. God, man, what a long way.

[Jon Favreau]

No one's going to say.

[Jon Lovett]

Let me. Let me actually say I want to revise my opinion, which is to say I would like Joe Biden to issue some pardons in advance, but not so many that they go down the list far enough to get to us. Leave some big targets on there, leave some big fish above us.

[Jon Favreau]

Pod Save America is brought to you by Zbiotics Pre Alcohol. Let's face it, after a night with drinks, you probably don't bounce back the next day like you used to. Especially when you are 43, like me. Zbiotics pre alcohol probiotic drink is the world's first genetically engineered probiotic. It was invented by PhD scientists to tackle rough mornings after drinking. Here's how it works. When you drink, alcohol gets converted into a toxic byproduct in the gut. It's this byproduct, not dehydration, that's to blame for your rough next day. Pre alcohol produces an enzyme to break this byproduct down. Just remember to make Zbiotics your first drink of the night. Drink responsibly and you'll feel your best tomorrow. I just used Zbiotics earlier this week. It's perfect for a night where you're going to have like a drink or two and you got to wake up early the next day. And I don't know about you, but at my age it feels a little rough to do that. So you take the Zbiotics before you drink, feel great the next day. And with their GMO technology, ZBiotics is continuing to invent Probiotics that will help with everyday challenges of modern living. Go to zbiotics.com crooked to learn more and get 15% off your first order. When you use crooked at checkout. Zbiotics is backed with 100% money back guarantee. Remember to head to zbiotics.com crooked and use the code crooked at checkout for 15% off. This podcast is sponsored by Squarespace. Squarespace is the all in one website platform for entrepreneurs to stand out and succeed online. Whether you're just starting out or managing a growing brand, Squarespace makes it easy to create a beautiful website, engage with your audience and sell anything from products to content to time, all in one place, all on your terms. You can get 10% off your first purchase of a website or domain. @squarespace.com Crooked they're introducing design intelligence from Squarespace. Now combining two decades of industry leading design expertise with cutting edge AI technology to unlock your strongest creative potential. Design Intelligence empowers anyone to build a beautiful, more personalized website tailored to their unique needs and craft a bespoke digital identity to use across one's entire online presence. Squarespace is great. We have been doing their ads for a long time and we've used it here before and it's really great if you're not like, you know, if you're not an engineer, if you don't know coding. Squarespace makes it very easy for anyone to just design a website. Fast and easy and it looks great. Go to squarespace.com for a free trial and when you're Ready to launch squarespace.com crooked to save 10% off your first purchase of a website or domain. This is an ad from BetterHelp. BetterHelp has improved therapy, making it affordable and convenient, and now it's even better. Sign up for BetterHelp between December 3rd and 5th to get one free month of therapy. Take a breather from the hectic nature of the holiday season. BetterHelp can help you pause and take care of yourself. Visit betterhelp.com PSA between December 3rd and 5th for one free month of online therapy. That's betterhelp.com PSA. Valid for new US customers only. Speaking of people that I have a strange new admiration and respect for, let's talk about Cash Patel, the next FBI Director.

[Jon Lovett]

Handsome guy.

[Jon Favreau]

Always loved Cash Patel.

[Jon Lovett]

Handsome, handsome guy.

[Jon Favreau]

No, absolutely. Down with the Deep State this has long been rumored that Cash Patel was going to get this. Now it's apparently coming true, even though Chris ray nominally has three years left in his 10 year term. If you haven't made it past the headlines, Patel is a former prosecutor who became a staffer on the House Intel Committee under Devin Nunes. Devin Nunes. That's talking about someone from season one where he became a critic of the Russia investigation and became a Trump world rising star. Patel worked at various jobs in the White House and the Executive branch and hung around with Trump after he left office. You may remember him getting wrapped up in the classified documents investigation, but Patel's biggest claim to fame is for being the purest and most outspoken warrior against the so called Deep State and its allies in the woke media. Here he is in conversation with Steve Bannon a year ago.

[Jon Lovett]

The deep State, the administrative state, the.

[Tommy Vitor]

Fourth branch of government never mentioned in the Constitution, is going to be taken apart brick by brick and the people.

[Jon Favreau]

That did these evil deeds will be.

[Tommy Vitor]

Held accountable and prosecuted. Criminal prosecutions do you believe that you can deliver the goods on this in a pretty short, in a pretty short order, the first couple of months so we can get rolling on prosecutions.

[Jon Lovett]

We will go out and find the conspirators, not just in government, but in the media. Yes, we're going to come after the people in the media who lied about American citizens, who helped Joe Biden rig presidential elections. We're going to come after you whether it's criminally or civilly. We'll figure that out. But yeah, we're putting you all on notice. And Steve, this is why they hate us. This is why we're tyrannical. This is why we're dictators. Well, got that part right.

[Jon Favreau]

Oh, boy.

[Tommy Vitor]

There's a very season one. You dig an inch into this and you're getting back to Nelly Orr and Fusion GPS Christopher Steele lovers.

[Jon Favreau]

It's tough.

[Tommy Vitor]

It's terrible.

[Jon Favreau]

So there was some chatter in the crooked slack about whether Cash Patel is the new worst nominee now that Matt Gaetz withdrew. What do you guys think? How worried should we be about Cash Patel?

[Jon Lovett]

I'm very worried. I think this is now the worst one. I think if Matt Gates were still in the contention in contention, you might have a debate, but it's now intellectual exercise. So Patel gets to be the worst one. There was a great profile in the Atlantic of Cash Patel that people should read, but there was one line that jumped out at me from an advisor to Trump who said that Cash is the one you say to hey, I'm not telling you to go break into the dnc, but. And that to me is what makes this so nerve wracking. You look at like he doesn't seem to have a very strong ideology, but then you. Nothing is more.

[Jon Favreau]

And he was a DOJ under Obama.

[Jon Lovett]

Right. And nothing is more, I think disconcerting than anyone who has become a rising star in Trump world. And why is a. Right. Why is he a rising Trump in. In, in Trump world? Because he is a lackey. He will say anything. You mentioned the classified documents investigation when he was interviewed by Breitbart and he said, oh, actually Trump declassified all that stuff. Why is there no record of it? I don't know. He just said it to me though. He said it. He declassified all that stuff with me. He is the guy that says what Trump needs him to say. Who does what Trump needs him to do, which is why he wants him to be in charge of the FBI and what makes him so dangerous.

[Tommy Vitor]

Yeah, I mean, look, me and Rhodes have been on the Cash Patel, watch for a very long time. This guy is not remotely qualified to lead the FBI. He's never worked with the FBI. He barely worked in law enforcement. He's a limited experience. He was a public defender, which is a great job, not one that qualifies you to lead the FBI. He's a congressional aide, and then he kind of bounced around the Trump administration. He says he was chief of staff at the Pentagon, but he was the chief of staff there for two months to the acting Secretary of Defense. So his boss during the Trump administration, a guy named Charles Cooperman, said, quote, he's absolutely unqualified for this job. He's untrustworthy. It's an absolute disgrace to American citizens to even consider an individual of this nature.

[Jon Favreau]

A former Trump official.

[Tommy Vitor]

That's a newer class, the Trump administration.

[Jon Favreau]

Yeah. So, like, love to hear him at the confirmation hearings. Me too.

[Tommy Vitor]

I hope they call him. So Lovett's summary of him is correct, which is he just. He tells Trump what he wants to hear. He feeds his paranoia about the deep state. There's no evidence that this guy's a reformer who has big ideas for how the FBI could be better. What there is a lot of evidence of is that Cash Patel is someone who keeps an enemies list. In fact, he published it in his book. It includes people like Bill Barr and John Bolton, who worked for Trump, to John Brennan and Loretta lynch, who were Obama aides to Hillary Clinton. Tim Miller tweeted out this full list. It includes Cassidy Hutchinson, who was an assistant to Mark Meadows. This is apparently like the leading lights of the Deep state. Just like random people who are mean to Donald Trump or that he just.

[Jon Lovett]

Didn'T like personally and had banned personal interactions.

[Tommy Vitor]

Right. Or was mean to Cash personally. But one of the most sort of disturbing allegations about Kasp Patel is from his time working at the Pentagon. Long story short, Navy seals were preparing a rescue operation in Western Africa and Nigeria. They needed to get permission from the Nigerian government to fly a US Military plane into their airspace. According to Mark Esper, the Secretary of Defense, Kash Patel just told everybody that they'd gotten this permission. He said he'd gotten the word from Mike Pompeo, the Secretary of State, and no one realized that he had just made it up. They were about to land or about to go into Nigerian airspace and figured out, wait, Cash Patel just made up that we had permission. So these guys circled and circled and circled. They almost had to call off a rescue operation. And luckily they got permission, they landed, they rescued this guy, and everything was okay. But the worst case scenario is you've got a plane full of Navy seals getting shot at by the Nigerian military.

[Jon Favreau]

Or the hostage gets shot at because they had to abandon the mission.

[Tommy Vitor]

Yeah, because so it, you know, you could have had a bunch of people killed. So it's a very. It's a bizarre selection. It's someone who's just a Trump ass kisser, acolyte, and not ready for this.

[Jon Favreau]

But could I interest you in some cash wine? He sells it for $233.99 for six bottles for six. Yeah, yeah, he's. He's a real.

[Tommy Vitor]

It's good stuff.

[Jon Favreau]

I didn't understand until I got into the Atlantic piece what a grifter he is. I mean, I'm not surprised by that, but he really goes after it a.

[Jon Lovett]

There's some. So when you dig into this guy, there's all the ways in which he is just sort of a Trump crony who will abuse his power. But the story Tommy is telling, it's really just strange because even Republicans that were like, kind of baffled, otherwise defenders of Trump are like, why would you do this? Like, why? Like, it's not like a.

[Jon Favreau]

There wasn't an ideological partisan.

[Tommy Vitor]

Well, the reason. Some people speculate that he just wanted it to happen, wanted the operation to happen because it was almost the election.

[Jon Favreau]

Right, Right.

[Tommy Vitor]

And they wanted to win.

[Jon Lovett]

Right. So that he was willing to. Not willing to lie, but, like, in such a kind of dangerous and unhinged way. In that, in that Atlantic piece, there is an anecdote about basically this sort of shitty judge in Texas sort of upbraiding him for not wearing a tie. It's like a very, like, specific story. But he's so agitated by it, he keeps coming back to his bosses over and over again. Grievance, looking for someone to kind of take his side. And he's like, what do you want us to do, man? Like, we're not gonna make a. Like there's just this sort of, like.

[Jon Favreau]

This is someone strange. This is someone you want in charge of the surveillance state and law enforcement.

[Jon Lovett]

He's also an author. And I just want this.

[Jon Favreau]

The kids book.

[Jon Lovett]

The kids book. This is the description of the book. Hillary Quinton and her shifty knight, Adam Schiff have spread lies that King Donald had cheated to become king. They claimed he was working with the Russianians. But how could that be? Joint cash, the distinguished discoverer as he uncovers the plot against the King and who was really behind all the lies.

[Jon Favreau]

Weirdest thing about that is he just Didn't. Why didn't he just use Russians?

[Jon Lovett]

Because it's a magical world filled with Russian.

[Tommy Vitor]

You gotta have a dual meaning for the parents and the kids.

[Jon Lovett]

Then why would you get Hillary, Quinton?

[Jon Favreau]

I do. What's chilling back to what's scary and not what's absurd. The line that you mentioned, love it. From the Trump advisor. That he's the guy that says, you know, Trump says, hey, I'm not telling you to go break into the dnc. He's the kind of person that would not necessarily just take orders from Trump to do things that are horrible and illegal, but just do them, thinking that it would impress Trump. That's it. Right. And also not seemingly be that competent about doing it, as the Africa story suggests.

[Tommy Vitor]

And also a guy who would run an organization that has all the authorities it needs to surveil otherwise harass American citizens.

[Jon Lovett]

Yeah, that's going to be a trend today, too. These are not people who have engendered esteem from even right wingers around them, which hopefully will damn their nominations, but would also, I think, ultimately damn them if they were to attain these jobs.

[Jon Favreau]

Chris Hayes said on his show once that Cache Patel at the FBI is what would happen if you crossed J. Edgar Hoover with Alex Jones.

[Tommy Vitor]

Okay, I like that.

[Jon Favreau]

Yeah.

[Jon Lovett]

Is it chilling?

[Jon Favreau]

Yeah, that's right. One thing's for sure. Pete Hegseth is trying to give Cash Patel a run for his money. Trump's nominee to oversee the Defense Department's nearly 3 million employees and $840 billion budget is the subject of a new Jane Mayer investigation over at the New Yorker about Hegseth's tenure at two veterans organizations that he ran. He apparently was forced out of Concerned Veterans for America for being drunk in the office and even drunker at official events, preying on female staffers and allegedly chanting Kill all Muslims at a bar while on work travel. Before that, he ran a group called Vets for Freedom, where he reportedly racked up huge debt and once again instilled a culture permissive of sexual misconduct. Apparently, he's such a shitbag that the New York Times got a hold of an email from his own mother in 2018 where she took the side of his estranged wife during a legal battle. She wrote to her son, you are an abuser of women. That is the ugly truth. And I have no respect for any man that belittles, lies, cheats, sleeps around, and uses women for his own power and ego. You are that man and have been for years. And as your mother, it pains me and embarrasses me to say that, but it is the sad, sad truth.

[Tommy Vitor]

Ooh, tough.

[Jon Favreau]

The Times reporter says that Hegseth told her that she immediately sent her son a follow up email apologizing and taking it back. Yeah, it's a tough one to take back. She said the things she wrote are not true and have never been true. It's. We've all gone through that with our moms.

[Tommy Vitor]

You meant the first one. You know what I mean? The walk back is what it is. You probably felt bad about the first one, but you meant the first one.

[Jon Favreau]

Yeah, it was not true. What I wrote in excruciating detail.

[Jon Lovett]

I Like I had. So the Times posted the email in full and then an article about the email. And the article says that basically she regretted it. Wrote another email after which I did not see. When I read the email first, all I had seen, I was like, holy fucking shit. Like my mom got in a. And I got in a little argument because my fridge broke. And the question was whether or not we could cook the turkey, you know, and it got heated, but not like this.

[Jon Favreau]

No. Yeah, I didn't see that. I didn't see her react. Friends reaction in the New York Times.

[Tommy Vitor]

Would the fridge prevent the cooking of the.

[Jon Lovett]

The fridge, bro. And so the turkey had been at about 50 degrees overnight.

[Tommy Vitor]

Too warm.

[Jon Lovett]

And it had. Well, we didn't know when it became 50 degrees. I was a bit stubborn.

[Jon Favreau]

After it had been spatchcocked.

[Jon Lovett]

It had. And I had to go run out and spatchcock a second fucking turkey and spatchcock two turkeys.

[Tommy Vitor]

Ooh, lucky you.

[Jon Lovett]

Yeah, what a weekend.

[Tommy Vitor]

Yeah. RFK over there.

[Jon Favreau]

Anyway, Pete Hegseth, I don't know. Does this change what we know about Hegseth in any meaningful ways? Certainly on the like sexual abuser misconduct category, I think it just strengthens the case there. Yes. But the mismanagement of an organization or two organizations, multiple organizations, it feels like that's notable.

[Tommy Vitor]

The US Military has a huge problem with sexual assault in both preventing it and holding those accountable. Part of that problem was that the decisions being made about who to prosecute, whether or not to prosecute these guys, was being made within the chain of command and not by independent prosecutors. Pete Hegseth would be at the top of that chain of command.

[Jon Favreau]

Right.

[Tommy Vitor]

So I think that this is actually a uniquely serious problem in the US Military if he were to be the leader of it. Joni Ernst, Republican senator from Iowa, did a lot of work trying to reform the system. I would love to hear what she thinks about Pete Hegseth leading this organization.

[Jon Favreau]

Who, by the way, was also rumored to be on the shortlist for defense secretary and then was spotted last week at Mar a Lago with Trump. So maybe he's already having second thoughts. Who knows?

[Tommy Vitor]

No, let's say that other allegation, let's say it's not true. Okay. What is not disputed is that Pete Hexath is a serial adulterer, which in the US Military can get you a year in prison or dishonorable discharge. Right. I'm not like, I'm not here to scold people for personal failings or whatever, but I'm just saying if you go by the ucmj, these are big deals. Also true for public intoxication and drunkenness. Clearly, reading all these articles, Pete Hegseth has a pretty serious drinking problem, or at least did pretty recently. And so the last part that you were getting at, John, was the New Yorker story talks about his mismanagement of an organization that has between five and 10 people and a five and $10 million budget. So now we're going to take this dude who can't run that organization, put him in charge of the Department of Defense, which employs nearly 3 million people and has a yearly budget of over $800 billion.

[Jon Lovett]

And also, like, again, similar to the people that have been behind the scenes saying they're worried about Cash Patel Concerned Veterans for America is not like the vw.

[Jon Favreau]

They got pretty concerned over there.

[Jon Lovett]

These are some concerned concerned veterans, but this is an Americans for Prosperity group. This is a Koch brothers group. These are conservatives inside of this organization. And one person said, I've seen him dragged away not a few times, but multiple times. To have him at the Pentagon would be scary. When those of us who worked at CVA heard he was being considered for SecDef, it wasn't. No, it was. Hell no. Like, the people that have worked with him are like, are you out of your fucking minds?

[Jon Favreau]

You guys remember when Trump's former Defense Secretary Jim Mattis said that he used to sleep in his clothes because he was so worried that in the middle of the night he'd get a call that Trump might start a nuclear war with North Korea? I mean, Pete Haggs just be drunk.

[Jon Lovett]

The good news is he wouldn't. Wouldn't wake up to get.

[Jon Favreau]

That's what I'm saying.

[Jon Lovett]

So we wouldn't have to worry about the war till the morning. Mr. President, could you just give me till morning?

[Jon Favreau]

We got Donald Trump, Kim Jong Un, autocrats around the world, nuclear weapons, and Pete Hegseth. Just hammered, just walking around the Pentagon.

[Tommy Vitor]

But again, I mean, you wouldn't be able to get a security clearance or pass a background check with this rap sheet. And now this guy is going to be in the nuclear chain of command. Seems bad.

[Jon Lovett]

There was another passage from the Jane Mayer piece that I just thought was striking. It included the phrase close down the bar at the Sheraton Suites Hotel. I thought that was a bad side. This is all around the kill all Muslims part is what is all taking place during this section. The staff for a letter cited a second incident in which Hexit passed out in the back of a party bus, then urinated in front of a hotel where CVA's team was saying, I'll tell you this because it's the truth and I sincerely care about the mission of cva. Now, just to give you a sense of like, these are conservatives. When that person, when Jane Mayer reached out for that, that person, that person said, if you print that, I will deny I wrote it. When he was reminded by Jane Mayer that it had been sent from the same personal email account that he still used, he said, I don't care. I'll just say it never happened. Like, these are.

[Jon Favreau]

Sounds like he might have peed at a Sheridan a few times too.

[Jon Lovett]

Listen, we've all. Listen, we've all peed outside of Sheridan Sweets.

[Jon Favreau]

All right, listen, Marty Bus, you know.

[Tommy Vitor]

This guy's a top notch liar though. Like, listen, on the record, if you print my thing, I'm gonna say it's a lie. That's just an incredible strategy.

[Jon Lovett]

So good. And you know what?

[Jon Favreau]

His name wasn't printed. So win for that guy. Okay, we're gonna take a quick break. One thing before we do that. On the latest episode of our subscriber exclusive show, Inside 2024, Alyssa Mastromonaco and former White House social secretary Deesha Dyer talk about White House holiday traditions. It's a fun look inside. How the White House entertains at holiday time and what happens when people puke eggnog on priceless works of art. Who did that happen?

[Tommy Vitor]

Trying to think, who did that? Didn't that happen in our crooked holiday?

[Jon Lovett]

And it worked.

[Jon Favreau]

That's exciting.

[Tommy Vitor]

It was on Sarawick, though.

[Jon Favreau]

It's true. To get access to this series and more, sign up. For our Friends of the Pod community, today is the last day to take advantage of our 25% off sale on all annual subscriptions. Joining our Friends of the Pod is the best way to support our work at Crooked media. Head to crooked.com friends to learn more or subscribe now from this feed on Apple Podcasts. Pod Save America is brought to you by Rocket Money. Can you name every single subscription you have? Probably not. Did you know that over 74% of people have subscriptions they've forgotten about? With Rocket Money, you don't have to remember every subscription or worry about forgetting any because you can see them all laid out in the same place. Rocket Money is a personal finance app that helps find and cancel your unwanted subscriptions, monitors your spending, and helps you lower your bills so you can grow your savings. See all of your subscriptions in one place and know exactly where your money's going. Rocket Money will even try to negotiate lower bills for you, sometimes by up to 20%. They automatically scan your bills to find opportunities to save and then you can ask them to negotiate for you. They'll even deal with customer service. Rocket Money has over 5 million users and has saved a total of $500 million in canceled subscriptions, saving members up to $740 a year when using all of the app's features. I have used Rocket Money. I've used it a couple times because the subscriptions just pile up. You forget about them sometimes. It's a real pain in the ass to just just even cancel them when you do remember them. And Rocket Money does it all for you and saves you a bunch of money. Stop wasting money on things you don't use. Cancel your unwanted subscriptions by going to RocketMoney.com Crooked that's RocketMoney.com Crooked RocketMoney.com Crooked.

[Tommy Vitor]

Pod Save America is brought to you by GiveWell. You like to optimize things. You've chosen the perfect credit card to maximize your travel points. Shouldn't you handle your charitable giving the same way? GiveWell spends 50,000 hours every year doing deep dives into charitable programs to try to find the ways to do the most good for your dollar. Over 100,000 donors have used GiveWell to donate more than $2 billion. Rigorous evidence suggests that these donations will save over 200,000 lives and improve the lives of millions more. GiveWell wants as many donors as possible to make informed decisions about high impact giving. You can find all of their research and recommendations on their site for free. You can make tax deductible donations to their recommended funds or charities and GiveWell doesn't take a cut. Go to givewell.org to find out more or make a donation. Select podcast and enter Pod Save America at checkout to make sure they know you heard about them from us. Again, that's givewell.org to donate or find out more and then select podcast and enter Pod Save America at checkout to make sure they know we sent you.

[Jon Lovett]

Pod Save America is brought to you by the aclu. The ACLU knows exactly what threats a second Donald Trump term presents and they are ready with a battle tested playbook. The ACLU took legal action against the first Trump administration 434 times and they will do it again to protect immigrants rights, defend reproductive freedom, fight discrimination, and fight for all of our fundamental rights and freedoms this giving Tuesday. Support the ACLU. With your help, they can stop the Extreme Project 2025 agenda. Everybody should support the ACLU. Join the ACLU at ACLU today.

[Jon Favreau]

All right, so we now have several all time most awful nominees lined up to run some of the most powerful agencies in government. We got Heg set at defense, Patel at the FBI, Tulsi Gabbard in charge of the intelligence agencies, and don't forget RFK Jr. In charge of public health. Defeating any of these nominations would require four Republican senators to oppose them. So far, a few Republicans have made mildly critical or at least not fully supportive comments about Hegseth, Gabbard and RFK Jr. No real vocal opposition to Patel just yet. Democrats are obviously playing defense against a lot of horrible nominees. How do you guys think they should be thinking about the strategy here? Like, should Democrats be fighting back against every unqualified, dangerous nominee? Do we need to pick and choose? Does there need to be an overall strategy to deal with all of them? What do you think?

[Jon Lovett]

Well, first of all, we've already picked and choose because Linda McMahon is also on deck to be Secretary of Education. These are just the four worst ones. They'll also run through four different committees if we still live in a world where there are Cabinet confirmation hearings, but they'd be through Judiciary, Intelligence, Armed Services, and the Health Committee. Right. Those are four groups of senators who will all have the ability to decide how they want to mount this argument with their fellow senators. So to me, it's just like we're sort of still waiting for what? A group of Republicans who have their own specific issues and concerns, where they're going to have backbone, where they're going to be trying to backchannel to have these nominations withdrawn so they don't have to go out, go up against Trump, where they're going to be willing to draw the line. Like we just have no idea. And we were talking about this before time, but like Democrats aren't even really shotgun in this fight. We're just riding along. And so it's just like none of these people should be in positions of authority and some might get through, we don't know. But we should fight as if they can all be defeated. I don't know what else we would do.

[Tommy Vitor]

It's a question of emphasis.

[Jon Lovett]

Right.

[Tommy Vitor]

I mean, because we don't have the power to block anybody. All we can do is get information into the public domain and make it politically damaging for Trump or the Republicans who vote for these nominees. And so, I mean, I guess Republicans could try to sort of collapse the timeframe of the hearings, do them all at once, do certain things that make it harder to tell a story about all of these nominees or anyone individually. But I do think it's more about the framing, because we just can't be like the norms and institutions party and the ones who are opposed to change.

[Jon Favreau]

Except bear a pardon.

[Tommy Vitor]

Whereas Trump's people are all like radical disruptors coming in to change the government that everyone just voted against because they hate it.

[Jon Lovett]

Right.

[Tommy Vitor]

I mean, that's where I'm concerned, is just. I worry about the Democrats in the US Senate coming at, like, a bunch of traditionalists, coming at these arguments in the most traditional kind of institution, defending ways and not being remotely compelling.

[Jon Favreau]

I think it's. These are a bunch of grifting kooks who will put our health and lives in danger and our security. Right, Right. It's gotta be about how it would affect people.

[Tommy Vitor]

Or if Cash Patel is spending all his time going after Trump's enemies, who is focused on combating ISIS or foreign espionage or human trafficking, or all those fucking LA rich kids that said they were on the rowing team that got into great schools. That's what we need, the FBI doing.

[Jon Favreau]

Justice should be served.

[Jon Lovett]

I don't mind.

[Tommy Vitor]

Was it called Varsity Blues? That's the name of the operation.

[Jon Lovett]

It was Varsity Blues. Also a fantastic film that probably doesn't hold up if we saw it again from when we saw it as kids.

[Jon Favreau]

It didn't for a while. Now it's back.

[Jon Lovett]

Trump won. It's now good again.

[Tommy Vitor]

You didn't do the whipped cream bikini.

[Jon Favreau]

Yeah. But it's got to be about how this would affect people. So that's just that, to me, is always the number one. And to the extent that people aren't qualified, it's that their lack of qualifications is not something that's going to help them reform an agency to improve people's lives, but it's actually going to hurt you by having them there.

[Jon Lovett]

I guess that's Right. That's the broader argument we need to be making, I suppose, to the country whether these people get confirmed or not. What is the story we're starting to tell about the Trump era? What is the argument that's going to persuade four Republicans on each side? No, but it is. But that, but that's important too. Right? Because these are hearings for the country. But they are also hearings for Murkowski, for Collins, for Curtis, the guy that replaced Mitt Romney that seems to have suddenly discovered.

[Jon Favreau]

I don't even remember his name. Good for you.

[Jon Lovett]

Romney has some Romney vibes to him, Cassidy, these kinds of people.

[Jon Favreau]

Well, that's why I do think making national security arguments is one way to potentially do that, because you do have some, you do have a couple Republican senators who are a little more old.

[Tommy Vitor]

School Republican, genuinely concerned about these institutions too, and like defending our country. Also, I think Robert F. Kennedy Jr. Could have a unique set of problems in that he is pro choice and there's a bunch of pro life Republicans who have expressed concern about the pick. I wonder if, you know, that could take him down. We'll see.

[Jon Favreau]

Yeah. Speaking of Democrats deciding whether to fight back, there have been a couple of notable instances lately of Democrats expressing modest support for some of Trump's nominees and initiatives. Colorado Governor Jared Polis tweeted a few weeks ago that he was, quote, excited by RFK Jr's appointment because of his stance against Big Pharma and corporate agriculture, even though he said he doesn't personally agree with his stance on vaccines. And on Sunday, Bernie Sanders tweeted, quote, elon Musk is right when it comes to criticizing Pentagon spending and waste, prompting favorable replies from Trump allies like Elon and Matt Gates and less favorable replies from several angry liberals on Twitter. Favorite kind. What do you guys think about how and whether Democrats should collaborate with the Trump administration on initiatives where they agree?

[Tommy Vitor]

Yo, rfk, let's collab. Let's hook up. I think Jared Polis screwed up by just sounding too credulous. You know, like I just, yes, healthier food sounds great. Do we think that RFK is going to succeed at that when he's up against the broader Project 2025 deregulatory agenda where they're gutting environmental protections? I don't think so. I also think RFK Jr. Cares mostly about keeping vaccines out of our arms. So I think that's going to be the issue there. I think the criticism of Bernie, in my opinion, is very stupid. I think that Democrats have long wanted to cut the Pentagon budget as they Should. I think we all should want to cut waste and fraud and abuse, and we should be in support of the goal and then hold their feet to the fire based on whether they're successful or not.

[Jon Favreau]

Can I just say Bernie was doing something there that is substantively and politically smart and good, per usual. Right. Like, I actually think the Democrats on this. On this DOGE thing, like, should beat Trump and Elon and all the rest of them to the punch on a reform agenda. And we should put forward a list of waste, fraud and abuse in government. It should include corporate subsidies, corporate tax breaks, no bid contracts, any other kind of waste that we can find in government, and then, you know, present it to all them, see if they do it. And if they don't do it. Oh, I thought you were a reformer. Why aren't you reforming the system? And then criticize Elon and Trump's moves based on who they'd hurt and who they'd rip off? Elon Musk said that we should delete the Consumer Financial Protection Bureau, which has saved consumers tens of millions of dollars over the last.

[Tommy Vitor]

They're very mad at the CFPB because Marc Andreessen, a crypto billionaire who's invested much, much more in crypto, has decided it's bad because I think some of the people he worked with were, quote, unquote, debanked. I'm not sure if that's even true because I don't know, they were selling fraudulent or risky assets. I'm not sure what's going on there.

[Jon Lovett]

Yeah, they've always had a. They've always hated the Consumer Financial Protection Bureau. The reason it's called the Consumer Financial Protection Bureau and not the Consumer Financial Protection Agency is because Republicans prevented it from becoming an agency. It was originally supposed to be led by Elizabeth Warren, whose idea it was, but Republicans prevented her from leading the agency. She then ran for the Senate, so jokes on them because she stuck around, but they've always hated it, and they've always lied about what it does. And what it does is protect consumers at the expense of big banks, credit card companies, airlines, et cetera. And so they've always hated it. But, yes, they, like. We cannot defend things just because Elon Musk or any of these people say that they're bad. We just can't. That just can't be what our politics are. Politics are not going to be defined. We have to have our own politics. And sometimes the fucking Doge people are gonna be. Right now, the polis thing bothers me because this idea that you should look past what RFK Jr says on vaccines because you have a problem with high fructose corn syrup or whatever is to like, I think misunderstand the job. And like even. And Polo's walked it back a bit. But even in his statement he's like, I hope RFK Jr doesn't withdraw vaccines. And it's like, well, if you're already at the place where you're hoping he doesn't do something that would be deadly and devastating, you've given away the game.

[Jon Favreau]

There's like an easy edit to Polis statement that would have been fine if he said like, I don't like vaccine mandates, but RFK Jr. S views on vaccines are dangerous and I would not have picked him. If he is confirmed, I hope he'll follow through on his commitment to take on big Pharma and corporate agriculture. Right. Like that would have been, that would not have ruffled a bunch of feathers like he was bad pick. He shouldn't have picked. Start with that bad pick. I don't like him. Vaccine views are crazy. He does have some views on other things that if we can't stop him, then great.

[Jon Lovett]

Right. And also back in August, Polos had said that RFK Jr. S views on vaccines are dangerous and he would be dangerous if he was in charge of health and human services. So it was just strange.

[Tommy Vitor]

I think he's dealing with some libertarian state politics and was opposed to vaccine mandates at some point. So anyway, but I think the challenge for the Doge folks is just that the majority of federal spending is mandatory. It's Social Security, it's Medicare, it's Medicaid. We pay about a trillion dollars worth of interest on our own debt.

[Jon Favreau]

Then there's flashback to 2011 here.

[Tommy Vitor]

Yeah. Then there's 850 billion in defense spending. So finding huge cuts. Like Elon Musk says, I think you wanted to cut 2 trillion a year. That's going to be incredibly difficult now. Good luck trying. But when you're talking about those levels of cuts, you're going to start really, really hurting people in service of extending the Trump tax cuts for the richest people in the country. And that's the story we have to tell.

[Jon Favreau]

This is also like a very old game that Republicans have played for a long time, which is you find some ridiculous sounding spending in the federal government, of which there is a lot and a line item somewhere that sounds fucking nuts. Or you point to employees who seem like they shouldn't be there. Elon Musk is like putting federal employees on blast tweeting about them to try to fire them. But you know, even if you eliminated every federal employee in the entire government, that's like a tiny percentage of the overall budget. It's not spent on staffers. It's spent on payments to people.

[Tommy Vitor]

It's a tiny portion of discretionary spending.

[Jon Favreau]

Yes.

[Jon Lovett]

There was the Republican Study group, which is 170 members of the House in all the Republican leadership. They put out a budget earlier this year and it called for raising the Social Security retirement age, which is just a giant cut to Social Security because the aged is really just a means of deciding how much money you get. There was a story just the other day that like if they're going to want to pay for all of these Trump tax cuts, what are they going to do to pay for it? Well, they want to, they want to means test food stamps. Joe Biden, who we're obviously in a bad mood with this week, he personally increased this weekend for many months. But like he didn't get a lot of credit for this, didn't get a lot of attention. But he basically the there was a bipartisan bill that gave the president the authority to increase food stamps. And so he issued the largest increase in food stamps that any president has ever done permanently. And he increased them by $36 per month, amounts to about $400 a year, not a lot of money. Republicans have already started talking about that. In order to pay for the extension of the Trump tax cuts, they want to revoke the president's authority to increase food stamps for by a few hundred dollars so that they can cut a person making $5 million a year, cut their taxes by 200 grand. Right. That's what they want to do. And you'll have Vivek and you'll have Elon running around the country talking about expensive office chairs and silly sounding science projects. But that's where the real cuts are going to be. They're going to start by going after food stamps and Medicaid because they start by going after poor people in the working poor and slowly work their way up to Social Security.

[Tommy Vitor]

So John McCain's whole shtick, the bridge to nowhere pork barrel spending, this isn't new.

[Jon Lovett]

And then that guy died in a plane crash. Follow the money.

[Tommy Vitor]

I, Johnny McCain.

[Jon Lovett]

No, I know, I know. Steven Stevens. Ted Stevens.

[Tommy Vitor]

Yeah. There's calling it doge because it's crypto.

[Jon Favreau]

We're back at Simpson Bowles now. So. All right, before we go, remember Cheryl Hines.

[Jon Lovett]

Yes.

[Jon Favreau]

The first lady of HHS. Yep. So over the weekend, the wife of RFK Jr. Posted this Instagram reel. Let's take a look. No, you can't. You can't take a shower. I'm doing a video.

[Jon Lovett]

No, no, no.

[Jon Favreau]

I'm doing.

[Jon Lovett]

I'm. You've got to give me a second.

[Jon Favreau]

I'm doing a video for Heinz and Young. Okay, this is honey, the 60% off. Okay? For the. For those of you who are just listening, you can go check this out on the YouTube version. This is a video of Sheryl Hines in her bathroom. She's holding up some of the lifestyle products she sells while Bobby showers behind her fully naked. But thank God, mostly obstructed by Heinz's head. Among the wares she's selling, a $20 clean eco conscious soy wax maha candle. What is.

[Jon Lovett]

Just make. Make sure. So she's getting in on the Make America healthy again. Horny Rift. Horny again. Well, I'm horny. I'm horny watching that video. Of course. Also just. It's.

[Jon Favreau]

She's getting her beak wet.

[Jon Lovett]

Everyone's getting. Yeah, that's it. It's like, wow, Sheryl Hines. All those stories. Oh, wow. I wonder what Cheryl Hines thinks about. Turns out she's in.

[Jon Favreau]

It's just like, everybody loves a winner. It's like the Melania stuff. Oh, maybe verbatim this.

[Tommy Vitor]

Like, every time there is a horrible married guy in public life, there's this weird coping conversation. Like, oh, maybe, maybe Melania was secretly hates it. Maybe it's a cry for help. Maybe she plays with a body double. Like, no, she's a horrible person. She married to Donald Trump.

[Jon Favreau]

America's like scammy capitalist ID is just unleashed in the second Trump administration here. It's like they're selling this cash. Patel's selling his wine. They're all making money. They're all getting rich.

[Tommy Vitor]

Well, the real piece of it, look, Jared Kushner already got his $2 billion kickback from the Saudis once he left government after the first Trump term. Now we've got Tiffany's, Trump's father in law being the kind of envoy for Middle Eastern affairs. There was a report in the Wall Street Journal that one of the ways that business like CEO types are trying to figure out how to suck up to Trump, one of the things they're doing is buying the Trump cryptocurrency to try to grease their way into the avenues into this administration for corruption this time are so unbelievable.

[Jon Favreau]

We haven't even talked about one of the biggest, which is tariffs, Tariffs, tariffs, right, because all these companies can apply to get exceptions. On the tariffs, which they did in the first Trump administration. And how are they going to do that? Gee, I wonder. What are they going to do for that lobbyist?

[Tommy Vitor]

Susie Wiles, Chief of staff and one.

[Jon Lovett]

Of the arguments that was made during the immunity debate in which the Supreme Court decided that the presidents have this incredible immunity, was how can you punish corruption if what you are. What bribery is, is bribing someone to use their. Their official powers. If you can't be held accountable for your use of official powers, how do you prove bribery? I think that will become why.

[Jon Favreau]

Maybe. Maybe we can get our pardon from Joe Biden if we just don't think so.

[Jon Lovett]

I just. It's.

[Jon Favreau]

We're going to cut a check. That's what I'm saying.

[Jon Lovett]

Yeah. Whatever it takes. It's not the most important part of that video. But just like I really hate the rfk. Junior, why are you showering behind me? You're in full hair and makeup.

[Jon Favreau]

I know. When did he have such bullshit?

[Jon Lovett]

He had to get. Did he get into. Did you. How did he get into the fucking shower? We can see the full shower and the shower.

[Tommy Vitor]

His whole body's wet, too.

[Jon Lovett]

His whole body's wet. He's been in there. You're the problem. You started shooting the video after he started fucking showering. What are you talking about?

[Jon Favreau]

Thank God there's not another season of Curb because I don't know, like done.

[Jon Lovett]

Bum bum bum.

[Tommy Vitor]

But I will watch back episode.

[Jon Favreau]

Oh, for sure.

[Tommy Vitor]

Because I have a locked in sort of. Okay. It's okay.

[Jon Favreau]

It's okay. Yeah, that's fine. We're not gonna get into a debate about that.

[Tommy Vitor]

Do you think Cache Patel was selling a supplement that promised to detoxify the COVID vaccine in your body?

[Jon Favreau]

Yes, I was gonna. Yeah, it was like. It was like de vaccine relax or something and MRNA and you'll be better in no time. It's so bad, you take a pill and it'll suck the COVID vaccine right out of you.

[Jon Lovett]

I don't know. How much worse could it be than all the half the Charlotte Tilbury shit I put on my face and all of its promises.

[Tommy Vitor]

What's that?

[Jon Lovett]

Nothing.

[Tommy Vitor]

The one thing when you listen to. Enough.

[Jon Favreau]

Don't wash my face.

[Tommy Vitor]

Right wing media. You realize how symbiotic their content and their products are. Like. It's a lot of stuff about how the economy is about to collapse. Therefore you should flip your IRA and put it all in gold. It's absolutely horrible advice. Constantly. All the time. That's apocalyptic.

[Jon Favreau]

Yeah, well, It's a lot more successful than our Jack Smith bobblehead business.

[Jon Lovett]

Yeah. And by the way, there's a black. There's a cyber Monday sale in the crooked store. You go to crooked.com/store. Got credible offerings there. Not joking.

[Tommy Vitor]

Probably a fire sale in 2024. Merch.

[Jon Favreau]

Do you think this is the pitch the marketing team wanted us to.

[Jon Lovett]

No, I think it's fine. There's a Christmas ornament that says hope on it you might like. Those are marked down. Check those guys out.

[Jon Favreau]

I dropped the vote saved America ornament for our tree.

[Jon Lovett]

That was a good one.

[Jon Favreau]

I know. And I said someone and they said, that story sounds a little Ruth Conda. I don't know. I don't think you really did that. I was like, I know it. It doesn't sound real, but it happened. It was Julia Wick who made that joke. That's our show for today. Great job. We did it. We did it, guys. We got through. We'll be back with a new show on Wednesday. Bye, everyone. If you want to listen to Pod Save America ad free or get access to our subscriber discord and exclusive podcasts, consider joining our friends of the pod [e-mail] friends or subscribe on Apple podcasts directly from the Pod Save America feed. Also, be sure to follow Pod Save America on TikTok, Instagram, Twitter and YouTube for full episodes, bonus content and more. And before you hit that next button, you can help boost this episode by leaving us a review and by sharing it with friends and family. Pod Save America is a Crooked Media production. Our producers are David Toledo and Saul Rubin. Our associate producer is Farah Safaree. Reed Churlin is our executive editor and Adrian Hill is our executive producer. The show is mixed and edited by Andrew Chadwick. Jordan Cantor is our sound engineer with audio support from Kyle Seglin and Charlotte Landis. Writing support by Hallie Kiefer. Madeline Herringer is our head of news and programming. Matt DeGroat is our head of production. Andy Taft is our executive assistant. Thanks to our digital team. Elijah Cohn, Haley Jones, Phoebe Bradford, Joseph Dutra, Ben Hefko, Mia Kelman, Molly Lobel, Kirill Pelaviev and David Toles. Emmy award winner Colman Domingo returns to television in the Netflix limited series the Madness. Domingo portrays a media pundit, Muncie Daniels. Caught in a deadly conspiracy, he must fight for his innocence and his life after he stumbles upon a murder deep in the woods of the Poconos Mountains and discovers he's the only witness to a crime. As the walls close in, Muncie strives to reconnect with his estranged family and his lost ideals in order to survive. Watch the Madness November 28th only on Netflix.

[Jon Lovett]

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[Jon Favreau]

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[Jon Lovett]

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[Tommy Vitor]

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