The Politics of Fashion: How What We Wear Shapes the World

Summary

Pod Save America: The Politics of Fashion – How What We Wear Shapes the World

Host: Stacey Abrams
Guest: Robin Givhan, Pulitzer Prize-winning fashion editor and writer
Date: October 16, 2025

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Episode Overview

This episode explores the powerful intersection between fashion and politics—how our clothing choices serve as forms of identity, resistance, and expressions of power. Host Stacey Abrams and her guest, Robin Givhan, discuss the history of political fashion, the coded messages behind what politicians and protestors wear, the double standards facing women in leadership, and the ways fashion both challenges and upholds social norms. The conversation weaves through personal stories, moments in history, and the contemporary American political climate, ultimately asking how fashion can help reclaim democracy.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

Fashion as Self-Expression and Political Signal

• Stacey Abrams opens with personal reflections about growing up with limited fashion options, how college and public life deepened her understanding, and how scrutiny over what she wore increased as she entered politics.
  • “The intersection of fashion and politics can seem strange, but they’re closely aligned…clothes aren’t just functional. In the right combination of circumstances, they are transformative.” (03:03)
• Fashion acts as an immediate language of identity, confidence, and defiance. Abrams references famous fashion statements by AOC, Lena Waithe, and Joy Villa, as well as the subtle, symbolic fashions used by suffragettes, the Black Panthers, and other movements.
  • “Fashion can also be a form of political speech—literally.” (03:34)
  • “The suffragettes dressed…purple for dignity, white for purity and green for hope.” (04:45)

Clothing as Power, Resistance, and Identity (with Robin Givhan)

• Robin Givhan discusses how she entered fashion journalism from outside the traditional fan culture, bringing a critical and political lens. She stresses how nobody truly “opts out” of fashion; even a lack of interest is a reaction.
  • “No matter who we are, we can’t really opt out of it…even people who say, ‘I don’t engage with fashion’—they’re still reacting to its impact.” (09:54)
  • On identity: “If you’ve never had your identity questioned or devalued, you’ve had the luxury of being the de facto norm…Lucky you. But we shouldn’t neglect what others have to fight for.” (09:54)
• Givhan explains the symbolic power of who is represented in fashion—whether on magazine covers or on runways—emphasizing the industry’s role in dictating the ‘template’ of worth, gender, and aspiration.
  • “Fashion teaches us the kind of people who have value and are worth celebrating…and sometimes it’s obvious, sometimes sneaky.” (12:17)
• She recounts the civil rights era’s “intentionality” with clothing:
  • “They were dressed in ways that evoked care and purpose…delivering a message of respect for themselves and the movement.” (15:51)

Fashion’s Place in Pivotal Historical Moments

• Abrams recounts her grandmother dressing up to vote for the first time post-segregation, underscoring how clothing can confer dignity and mark significant occasions. (19:09)
• Givhan references groups dressing up for Black Lives Matter protests, showing how “thoughtful dressing” can bring a sense of dignity and importance to public demonstration.
  • “Some were in suits, ties, jackets…bringing dignity and importance. Thoughtful dressing lets people recognize the occasion and its weight.” (20:50)

Fashion as Subversive Messaging in Political Power

• Zelensky: Givhan analyzes Ukrainian President Zelensky’s choice to wear military garb instead of a suit during a visit to the White House.
  • “He had an acute understanding that visuals can deliver a message…his choice was a rebuke—a message that this isn’t business as usual.” (23:55)
• Trump: The conversation turns to Donald Trump’s personal style—expensive but ill-fitted, flashy without sophistication.
  • Givhan: “It kind of reminds me of what a kid imagines wealth looks like…Attuned to the shiny object, not expressing who you are with thought.” (27:01, 27:50)

Fascist & Authoritarian Fashion: Historical and Current

• Abrams and Givhan address the specific aesthetics of authoritarian leaders and regimes. While Nazi uniforms stand out as infamous, modern authoritarian/fascist symbols often appear as stricter gendered codes or even ordinary clothing (khakis, polos at right-wing rallies) that mask exclusivity behind banal normality.
  • “We expect there to be some strange or distinctive uniform, but what’s most disconcerting is how banal the attire can be—khakis and polo shirts, for example, now markers of the far right.” (31:23, 35:02)

The Fashion Industry’s Role & Ethical Choices

• Abrams notes the shift in the fashion industry's stance—some designers refused to dress Melania Trump in 2016, but such resistance seems weaker in a second Trump administration.
• Givhan discusses business interests, “outrage exhaustion,” and notable designers still pushing messages of inclusion and protest (e.g., Willy Chaberria’s show centering on immigrant experiences and resistance).
  • “I feel there’s almost an outrage exhaustion…some designers try to separate the institution from the individual, but I don’t think nonpartisanship will sit well with history.” (39:00)

Disruption and Denial as Tools of Freedom

• Abrams describes her own activism, including using fashion to resist attempts to erase identity and visibility. She highlights shows like Actively Black’s NY Fashion Week event featuring civil rights icons, seeing such acts as both “disruption” and “denial” of authoritarian control over self-presentation. (45:59)

Gender and Fashion Standards in Politics

• Discussion of the double standards women in politics face—former Secretary Clinton, Vice President Harris, and Abrams herself must navigate fashion expectations with thought and care, unlike men who slot easily into the “suit” template of power.
  • Givhan: “The most unqualified guy can put on a dark suit and a tie and look the part. There wasn’t an easy template for women.” (49:41)
  • “Women have to balance gravitas, approachability, authority—not too tough, not too sweet.” (49:41)

Fashion as a Tool for Reclamation and Optimism

• Givhan discusses her work on Virgil Abloh and the lessons of optimism—choosing to believe change (in oneself and in the industry) is possible.
  • “Virgil Abloh said, ‘I choose optimism. I choose to believe things can get better. Why not me?’” (56:22)
• Her advice: Ask “why not me?” in the face of impossible-seeming problems, and use fashion and optimism as sources of power and confidence.

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• “The right combination of clothing can be transformative.” (03:03, Abrams)
• “Fashion is a way to communicate our understanding of beauty, gender, and value…It sneaks in powerful messages that ripple through culture.” (12:17, Givhan)
• “Thoughtful dressing brings importance to the occasion…It’s a form of dignity—at a protest, voting, weddings, or funerals.” (20:50, Givhan)
• “Zelensky’s military-style dress was a rebuke to ‘business as usual’…showing substance over polish.” (23:55, Givhan)
• “We expect authoritarians to have a strange uniform, but often it’s the most banal attire—khakis, polos—that signal exclusion and far-right identity.” (35:02, Givhan)
• “There’s outrage exhaustion…Some try to be nonpartisan, but I don’t think nonpartisanship under these circumstances will sit well with history.” (39:00, Givhan)
• “The most unqualified guy can put on a suit and look the part of power; there was never an easy template for women.” (49:41, Givhan)
• “Ask yourself ‘why not me?’ and maintain optimism, even against the darkness.” (56:22, Givhan)

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Key Segments & Timestamps

• Setting the Theme – Fashion & Politics (02:16–07:33)
• Robin Givhan’s Journey to Covering Fashion & Identity (07:33–09:54)
• Fashion’s Universal Reach, Identity, and Norms (09:54–12:04)
• Fashion as Power, Beauty, and Protest (12:04–15:51)
• Dress and Dignity at the Ballot – Abrams’s Grandmother Voting (19:09–20:50)
• BLM Protests and “Thoughtful Dressing” (20:50–23:26)
• Zelensky, Substance Over Suit (23:26–26:23)
• Trump’s Fashion as Symbol (26:23–29:54)
• Authoritarian Aesthetics & Contemporary Signals (29:54–35:02)
• The Evolving Fashion Industry & Politics Under Authoritarianism (39:00–44:24)
• Fashion as Disruption and Reclamation (Actively Black, NYFW) (44:24–46:11)
• Double Standards for Women in Politics (48:11–54:52)
• Book Discussion & Abloh’s Optimism (54:52–60:10)
• Conclusion & Action Steps (60:10–end)

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Listener Action Steps

As always, Abrams closes with actionable takeaways:

• Be curious: Read Robin Givhan’s new book and think critically about the narratives behind what we wear.
• Solve some problems: Consider how your own fashion consumption contributes to waste—shop mindfully and opt for sustainability.
• Do some good: Donate clothes rather than throwing them away; support local organizations and shelters.

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Tone & Language

The episode’s tone is conversational but deeply thoughtful, centering on personal narrative, historical reflection, and critical insight. Both Abrams and Givhan use storytelling, humor, and pointed analysis to make complex connections between identity, resistance, and the politics of appearance.

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This summary captures all major themes, memorable exchanges, and actionable advice from “The Politics of Fashion: How What We Wear Shapes the World,” ensuring listeners who missed the episode leave with a full understanding of its scope and impact.

Transcript

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[Stacey Abrams]

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[Robin Givhan]

Welcome to assembly.

[Stacey Abrams]

Required with Stacey Abrams from Crooked Media. I'm your host Stacey Abrams.

Growing up in Southern Mississippi, I didn't really pay too much attention to fashion. We shared basically the only mall with the city next door and the big chains hadn't quite discovered the Gulfport Biloxi corridor. But my older sister was an aficionado.

Of the magazines and the looks they covered from New York, London, London, Milan, Paris. So I learned a bit by osmosis.

My tutelage was accelerated when I went to Spelman College, started watching Project Runway.

And then when I ran for public office, what I wore became as much.

A topic of conversation sometimes as the legislation I voted on.

The intersection of fashion and politics can seem strange, but they are closely aligned. So clothes aren't just functional. In the right combination of circumstances, they are transformative.

What we wear is a form of.

Self expression, a way to share who we are without saying a word. Choosing between a dress and a pair.

Of slacks, a solid or a vibrant pattern. These are languages all their own.

They can speak to confidence, ambition and and even power. Fashion can also be a form of political speech, literally. At the 2021 Met Gala, AOC made headlines in a white satin dress with quote, tax the rich spray painted in bold red letters, garnering both praise and criticism. In 2019, Lena Waithe and designer Kirby Jean Raimond wore matching suits emblazoned with quote, black. Drag queens invented camp and fix your credit pool money.

Buy back the block.

Singer Joy Villa arrived in a red, white and blue gown that read, quote.

Trump 2020 in stark white text.

And in every case, the world noticed. But political resistance in fashion has the capacity to be subtle yet unmistakable. Beyond slogans and statements throughout history, clothing has been a quiet yet powerful tool of defiance, a way to challenge norms, assert identity and reclaim power.

We refer to them in the 10.

Steps as Disrupt and deny. The suffragettes dressed to reflect the Edwardian feminine ideal purple for dignity, white for purity and green for hope. Those colors became synonymous with their movement.

My boss, former Atlanta mayor Shirley Franklin.

The first Black woman to lead a major city, wore a flower every day of her administration, a nod to a constituent and to a promise of a new day.

In the 1970s, the Black Panthers adopted.

Berets as part of their uniform, a symbol of unity and power. And in 2016, Beyonce and her backup dancers pay homage to that legacy, wearing.

Black berets during the super bowl halftime show. And then there's the conversation about Bad Bunny.

From dashikis worn at formal events to luxe hijabs and stylized sarongs, fashion connects continents, movements and meaning.

When I ran For Governor in 2018, I faced critique and waves of advice.

About how to best meet the moment.

And what I wore to do so.

Some wanted me to play down my.

Curves in favor of boxy suits and somber tones. Instead, I chose dresses that emphasized both.

A change of the guards and colors that highlighted, rather than dampened my darker skin tones. People noticed. And for some, my refusal to age myself with hyper modesty or to hide myself with shapeless garb became a statement all its own. Understanding the language of fashion is key to understanding our current age. And it can be a translator for those in search of how to navigate the present moment. One of the 10 steps to freedom.

And power Fighting back against authoritarianism is.

How we present ourselves to the world, how we show which side of history we not only stand on, but how we plan to build it. MAGA has chosen a label and a color and a regime. We know it when we see it. Those of us who are pro democracy may one day need to also show who we are. What we wear might matter. So today I'm joined by the legendary.

Fashion editor and Pulitzer Prize winning writer, Robin Givhan.

She'll talk to us about how fashion.

Reflects our culture back at us and.

What that culture tells us about the political moment we're in and what's coming next. The incredible Robin Givhan joins us now. Welcome to Assembly Required.

[Robin Givhan]

Thank you so much for having me.

[Stacey Abrams]

Okay, Robin, you are a Pulitzer Prize winning writer. You're an exceptionally accomplished fashion editor. You are a trendsetter. With the way you describe the world we see, you've carved out what feels like your own unique arena. You've written about the intersections of politics and fashion. You've investigated and interrogated what we're seeing.

And what we're not. I would love to know what first.

Drew you to explore this topic.

[Robin Givhan]

You know, it's kind of a combination of happenstance and a little bit of intent. I mean, I never really thought that I would be someone who was writing about fashion. I sort of fell into that as a young journalist who just wanted a beat that I could call my own. And that sort of happened to be the one that opened up. And I thought I wore clothes. This sounds interesting. Maybe I'll explore this. And I started thinking about fashion sort of outside of the bubble that is the fashion industry, in part because I was someone who was coming to the subject not as a fan, but as someone who was just sort of curious about it, having spent so much of my career at the Washington Post in Washington politics and identity and power and sort of the struggle for power and respect. And you can't sort of help but think about that, regardless of what subject you're covering.

[Stacey Abrams]

So, Robyn, one thing you just said.

Sparks a conversation that I've been having both through articles, but also just in my political journey, which is a conversation of identity. And this I would Say, this misapprehension that we have that identity isn't a useful tool, that it doesn't or shouldn't exist in discourse. And you just described how fashion helped you think about identity. Can you talk about your reaction to the conversation about whether identity should be a part of how we think, of how we navigate the world?

[Robin Givhan]

Yeah, I mean, the thing about fashion is that it's inherently an interesting industry because it's full of sort of creative people who are trying to also navigate a global business, but it's also extraordinarily intimate because no matter who we are, we can't really opt out of it. Right. I mean, unless we sort of dedicate ourselves to a nudist colony, we all have to sort of think about what we're going to put on in the morning. And I find that even people who have this sort of attitude of I am beyond fashion or I don't engage with fashion, they're still in some way reacting to this sort of outsize importance or impact that fashion has and how we perceive people. And so when people start talking about, you know, identity and, you know, and saying that it's not something that we should focus on. To me, that says you've never been in the position of having your identity questioned or having your identity judged or having your identity devalued. You've had this incredible luxury of being able to move through the world, move through a world in which your identity is sort of the. The de facto norm. It's the identity against which everything else is measured or defined. And if that's the case, I say, lucky you. But I don't think that that means that we should sort of neglect to consider how other people have had to essentially fight to have their identity understood.

[Stacey Abrams]

Well, with that in mind, how has.

Fashion been used as a tool of identity defining or as political resistance? And to your point, how has it been a tool of power?

[Robin Givhan]

Wow, that's. Thank you, Stacey, for that really mouth like, giant question.

[Stacey Abrams]

You know, solve the world.

I need you to solve the world for us using fashion. So go.

[Robin Givhan]

I mean, I will start by sort of focusing on like a very sort of traditional fashion element, right, which is the COVID The COVID shot. Right. Of any magazine or who gets to open a fashion show or close a fashion show on the Runway. I mean, these are sort of the high points for a model, if you will, in their career. And, you know, for a long time, the industry has grappled with. Continues to grapple with diversity within the fashion industry and within the ranks of Models. And a lot of times, you know, I think people sort of wonder, well, you know, like, what's the big deal about, like, which teenager gets to be on the COVID of a magazine or, you know, who. Who cares who's closing a fashion show? But I always sort of remind people that, you know, fashion is this way that we communicate our understanding of beauty, our understanding of gender, our understanding of what sort of femininity means or what masculinity means. And in many ways, fashion teaches us the kind of people who have value and the kind of people who are worth celebrating and worth elevating and worth aspiring, Aspiring to be like or emulating. And those are really powerful lessons. And fashion does it in ways that are quite. That some ways sometimes are quite obvious and sometimes are quite sneaky. And I think it's important that we understand that fashion is kind of sneaking in these really potent messages that have a real ripple effect throughout the culture. And I also think about those images, those incredible images from the civil rights era during the protests. And you see these people. I was so struck by images from the march on Washington. They're all there in August. Martin Luther King is making his speech. They're there around the reflecting pool. And I remember once I looked up the weather for that day for a story that I was writing, because this was in August in Washington, and it was hot, hot. And I was just looking at the way that people were dressed, and a lot of it certainly had to do with just sort of the styles of the moment. But. But they were also just dressed in this way that evoked such care and such purpose and, to use an overused word, intentionality. And it just really spoke to the importance that they conferred on the moment, the importance of the way that they carried themselves in delivering their message. I think today people would sort of lump it into, quote, unquote, respectability, politics. But at the time, it was not about. It was about gaining respect, but it was also about sort of announcing how much respect people had for themselves. And I think that's a really, again, a powerful message that fashion can send.

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[Stacey Abrams]

I remember a story that my grandmother told me and I talk about it in my book Our Time is Now. She talked about the first Time, she and my grandfather and his brother and sister in law, the first time they went to vote In Mississippi in 1968, they were voting in the presidential election. And when she told me the story, she said they'd come home from work and my Grandfather and Uncle L.P. and Aunt Sister were waiting in the front room for her to finish getting dressed. And I remember stopping her in the story saying, why were you going to get dressed? And she said, well, we had to get dressed up. She was changing into hosiery. I mean, she was a cook. She and my grandfather were cooks at a college. And they got out of their uniforms and she was putting on her Sunday best because this was an event. They were going to participate as full citizens for the very first time in their lives and cast a ballot. And for her, the sheer act of getting dressed up carried such weight and meaning, and it to her seemed absolutely necessary. And I juxtapose that with how some of my friends think about whether they vote or not, let alone what they wear to vote. And I guess I would ask you, you raised respectability, politics. But I think there's also just the question of what are current examples that you see that if not carry the exact same weight that we can imbue in that moment of history that give you some echoes in current conversations about fashion and politics and their intersection.

[Robin Givhan]

I think about during the summer of the Black Lives Matter protests surrounding George Floyd's murder. And I remember there was a group of, I think it was all men, I might be wrong about that, who were in New York who made this point of getting dressed up when they were out there raising their voices. And when I say getting dressed up, I mean, it was like, you know, those Images from the 60s had been sort of dipped in Technicolor. And they were. Some of them were in suits, some of them were in ties, jackets. I mean, they just looked incredible. And their whole point was, you know, in sort of bringing a kind of dignity and importance to what they were doing. And not to say that you can't be in, you know, T shirts, sneakers, shorts, whatever, and still be delivering a really important message. But I think, as you said, there are reasons why there are still this handful of occasions in which we really, when we fret about what we're going to wear and whether or not what we're wearing is appropriate or is respectful or perhaps celebratory enough. And I think about it at weddings and at funerals, we think about what we're wearing. And those are occasions that still sort of carry this importance and an emotional weight to them. And there are these moments that we know that we're going to remember that are going to be sort of written into the family history book. And I don't know. I mean, sometimes I wonder if other moments still had that sort of capacity to inspire kind of thoughtful dressing. That, that act of thoughtful dressing just sort of allows people to take a moment and really sort of think about the occasion that they're dressing for, whether it be a protest, whether it be, you know, the first time that, you know, someone is going into the voting booth.

[Stacey Abrams]

Well, I'm going to stick with the idea of thoughtful dressing and do a juxtaposition and a contrast. You had Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelensky, who refused to wear a suit during his first Oval Office meeting with Donald Trump, saying, quote, I will wear a costume after this war is finished.

What do you understand about Zelensky's decision.

And the outrage that followed and how you situate it in this conversation of fashion and politics?

[Robin Givhan]

Well, I think it's. I mean, it's fascinating to me that he had such an acute understanding of the way in which visuals can deliver a message without ever having to open your mouth. I mean, he certainly is someone who, I mean, he has this, you know, this entertainer's background and his choice to not wear a suit, to wear this kind of almost like workman sort of military garb, I think one certainly sends a message of connection to, you know, the citizens of Ukraine. I think it underscores the role that he. He was forced into having as this wartime president. And I think it was also kind of a rebuke to an administration that would like to sort of proceed sort of business as usual, that would like to sort of remove the stature that he has from having to deal with, grapple with, overcome these sort of terrible, these terrible circumstances. And I think it was also a way of setting him apart and saying, I'm not just another politician. This is not politics, even if he obviously is having to engage in politics. And the fact that that was called out as a kind of insult to the occupant of the Oval Office, I think underscores the degree to which appearances matter to the current president of the US In a way that is very different. I think that Zelensky's choice is about allowing his substance to come through in his attire. And the reverse, I think, can also be true, in which you allow the attire to substitute for substance.

[Stacey Abrams]

And with that intersection, I would like to talk about the current occupant who seems inordinately preoccupied with the fashion choices of others, but lacks a certain polished style in his own right. You wrote an article where you mentioned that his clothes are sort of a perfunctory set of uniforms, that they have quality, but they really lack attention to fit.

I would love to know what you.

Think his style conveys about his understanding of fitness to lead and the fitness of this office.

[Robin Givhan]

You know, I have been. I'm always. I've always been sort of fascinated by the fact that, you know, much of. Much of what he wears is certainly pricey, expensive, and yet doesn't necessarily look so. I mean, there's this sort of understanding that you think, oh, if you spend a lot of money on something, then it's going to sort of fit. Fit you perfectly, and it's going to just sort of scream sort of quality and prestige. And, you know, that's not necessarily the case. I mean, it's the old adage that money doesn't buy you taste.

[Stacey Abrams]

Wait, you mean outfitting the Oval Office in gold embossed does not necessarily convey what is intended?

[Robin Givhan]

Yes, the gilding, all of that. You know, in many ways it sort of. It reminds me of. And, you know, not to malign a teenager or an elementary school person, but it sort of reminds me of what someone sort of imagines a wealthy person's home looks like or what it means to dress expensively. It's a very kind of basic, unsophisticated take on it. And it is one that is much more attuned to, you know, sort of the bright, shiny object as opposed to any sort of thoughtful consideration of what it is that is particularly expressive of who you are. And, you know, I remember many, many, many years ago interviewing Donald Trump, and one of the things that he talked about was how often his name was mentioned by a certain generation of rappers. And, you know, I declined to, like, fact check that because I'm not going to go through the entire oeuvre of like, 1990s rap if that's true. But I do think that it seemed plausible only because his style represented this kind of throw money at it wealth. And I think his style reflects that kind of transaction that how much money can you spend? And the more that you spend, the better it is, even if it's not.

[Stacey Abrams]

Yeah, I want to do a few questions with you about how fashion is meeting this moment or telling us a story about the moment we're in. And I use the term authoritarianism for folks who have been following my podcast and my substack I spend a lot of time talking about authoritarianism and autocracy, but I think it's important for us to discuss, distinguish that authoritarianism is how a government behaves. It's how it aggregates decision making to a small group. It intentionally disregards personal liberty and it opposes any form of accountability for itself. But it's a form of government. Fascism is an ideology and that's a belief system that pursues this notion that a certain brand of purity, whether it's racial purity, ethnic purity, religious purity, sometimes all of the above, that that purity is the organizing belief system of government behavior. And we can all recognize the most famous fascist fashion that would be the Nazi uniform. But we know other aspirants have learned from and borrowed its components. Do you have an opinion about whether or not modern day fascism has an aesthetic? And if so, do you see hints of it cropping up in American fashion or globally because we see the rise of these authoritarian fascist governments across the world?

[Robin Givhan]

Well, I mean, I don't know that I have enough skill to say whether or not something is fascist or reflective of that or not. I mean, I, I do think that we see elements of fashion being used as a way of underscoring a kind of pure or acceptable version of femininity, masculinity, patriotism, nationalism. I mean, I think that when you look at the way that both the men and the women of the current administration comport themselves, you certainly see that there's no place for ambiguity, there's no place for a gray zone, a middle ground. There's a very particular way of presenting femininity and there's a very particular way of presenting masculinity. And in some ways it's so, so prescribed that, you know, it doesn't allow for diversity because it's so strict that if you don't have or are unwilling to create the sort of, you know, I don't want to malign an entire state, so I won't call them Utah curls, but that sort of long, barrel, curled hair, you know, that is, has become sort of one of the defining definitions of how a woman looks in this sort of universe. And you know, it seems like, it seems very petty, but at the same time, when it's so narrow in that way, it doesn't leave room for like, very many kinds of people to participate, to have a say, to be deemed competent. If those are the definitions of competency in many ways, like the, you know, the. I think we expect there to be some kind of, you know, strange or distinctive kind of uniform or way of dressing. But what is perhaps the most disconcerting is that the most banal kinds of attire have been worn and used. I mean, whether or not it's, you know, the khakis and polo shirts from, you know, the Charlottesville march or, you know, it's a bunch of guys, you know, dressed up like they belong to a fraternity. And, you know, those are the things that are sort of markers of the far right. And I think if we look for something that seems jarring or, you know, sort of deviant in some way, that we are going to miss what's right in front of us.

[Stacey Abrams]

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[Stacey Abrams]

I want to talk about this for a little bit more because we hear the term fascist thrown around, autocrat, authoritarian and they all have very specific meanings. And I think this is a moment where all of those meanings apply in different ways for different reasons, but they're all true. This administration this president, the regime that surrounds him, have made a centerpiece of their policymaking, attacking diversity, reviling equity, and demeaning inclusion. They have been very intentional about attacks on race, attacks on gender, attacks on sexual orientation, sexual, gender identity. They have been very, very clear about the rise of ethno nationalism and Christian nationalism, and those are markers of fascism. And the reason I raised this is because, you know, during Trump's first term, there was a heated debate among designers about whether they would dress Melania. You know, there are big names like Tom Ford and Marc Jacobs and Zac Posen who publicly refused. And yet this time, that forceful opposition seems to have faded. And multiple members of the family of this regime, the family of those who have made it a very clear intention to reject diversity, to be repulsed by the importance of identities that are not their own. These family members are being dressed for events by high profile designers. And so I'd love to hear you reflect on how you see the shift and what does it say about the fashion industry and cultural gatekeepers more broadly. And I want to tie it back to something you referenced, which is khakis and the polo shirts of today were the brown shirts that Hugo Boss had to apologize for providing to the Nazis. And so we'd love to just know how you're thinking about the role that the fashion industry is playing in this overthrow of democracy.

[Robin Givhan]

Well, I think for some of the designers, certainly, particularly around the time of inauguration, were trying to separate the person from the institution, the particular administration from this sort of historical American moment. Now, I don't know that that's possible, but I think at that point there was definitely a sense of trying to be nonpartisan. I don't know that if choosing nonpartisanship under those circumstances is a choice that will ultimately sit well with history. I think that the fashion industry is like any other in that it is a business that is trying to look out for, you know, its bottom line. I mean, I will say that certainly the world of luxury fashion under the corporate ownership of LVMH is of particular interest because, you know, that is a conglomerate that is controlled by Bernard Arnault, and, and that is someone who has a very, I would say, publicly comfortable relationship with this administration. I don't know what goes on behind closed doors, but that is certainly all signs point to that. Certainly the first time around, the first term. Mr. Arnault went to Trump Tower and met with the incoming president and then later on opened a Louis Vuitton factory in Texas. The president and members of his team came to cut the ribbon. I will say that they were rather quiet, or as quiet as they could be within the fashion industry about the President coming to open that factory and did not exactly shout it at the top of their lungs. But, you know, so there's that business aspect of it that exists. And then to some degree, I think it seems to me that this is in many ways kind of been the case for a lot of people. I feel like there's almost a kind of outrage exhaustion to some degree, that for some people they just couldn't stay at sort of high outrage. I mean, certainly there is the issue of the tariffs and the way that that's affecting the fashion industry, but there still are, I would say, a lot of designers or some designers who are being very pointed in their critique, their criticism of the administration. One that immediately comes to mind is Willy Chaberria, who is of Mexican American descent, a beautiful, beautiful designer, focused mostly on menswear. And, you know, he showed his very first collection in Paris and took that opportunity to, you know, open with the song Hotel California in English and also in Spanish. And the first handful of guys down that Runway were, you know, brown skinned men with, you know, close cropped hair, wearing white T shirts and shorts. And they came out and they were, you know, knelt in formation, sort of mimicking what had been happening with detainees who had been sent to the prison in El Salvador. And, you know, then that was followed with a beautiful collection that really celebrated that convergence of Mexican heritage and American and Southern California and all the things that make Willy such an interesting and wonderful and unique designer. And so I think that was one way that one designer was speaking his mind. But certainly there are others that are based in Europe for sure, that are happy to dress the first lady and the family.

[Stacey Abrams]

I'm so glad you raised that and I appreciate your very thoughtful engagement. Because as much as there are 10 steps to authoritarianism and autocracy, I believe there are 10 steps to freedom and power. And two of my favorite steps are step six, which is disruption. We gotta disrupt those things that would steal our joy. We've gotta disrupt those moments or those industries or the facility of authoritarianism to change who we are, what we expect. And then we have to deny, we have to deny dominion over our language, over our fashion, over how we express ourselves. Because part of authoritarianism is this intention to. To deny you personal freedom and part of fascism is to deny you identity. And so my FYP has been gushing over how the black owned brand, actively black, held their fashion show in New York Fashion week called this is Not a Fashion show, and they featured civil rights pioneers and their descendants walking the Runway. You know, you had Ruby bridges, you had Dr. Bernice King, you had the civil rights photographer Cecil J. Williams. Given what you've just described and given how we are watching this assault on the black community, on immigrants, especially immigrants of Hispanic descent.

And how should we.

Understand disruption and denial of authority to those who would try to take it from us in this current moment?

[Robin Givhan]

Well, you know, I think one of the reasons that fashion gets under people's skin, so to speak, is because it really does get at the core of how we want the world to see us and how the world wants us to be seen. And often those two things are. Can be, you know, terribly in conflict. I mean, I think about, you know, the incredible amounts of attention and hysteria over drag queens. And, I mean, it comes down to the fact that, you know, people wanting to control how others move through, identify themselves, move through the culture, move through society. And, you know, it's. It's. It leaves me basically speechless in many ways. But, I mean, I do think that the industry is at its best when it is being incredibly. When it's being artful and using the creativity that designers have to tell us a story to allow us to see beauty where we didn't necessarily know we would find it, or to highlight something that perhaps we see all the time, but never gave it really a second glance. And I think fashion can be really powerful when it challenges our ideas about gender roles and who holds the power and what power looks like in a particular circumstance.

[Stacey Abrams]

So Hillary Clinton faced relentless scrutiny of her wardrobe when she ran for president in 2016. When Kamala Harris was running for president, she often wore suits in very bold colors, and she cycled through different styles. When I ran for governor of Georgia in 2018, nobody who looked like me had ever run for that office before, much like Secretary Clinton and Vice President Harris. And that meant that, personally, I had to be very careful and very thoughtful about my fashion choices. And you wrote this piece about my style choices for the Washington Post, a piece that really just meant the world to me. And if you remember that article, and just as you think about your observations during those two election cycles for Secretary Clinton and for Vice President Harris, I'd love for you to ruminate about why the fashion standards are so different for women in politics and as compared to men, but also as a personal revelation, what prompted you to write about my approach?

And just.

I would love for you to spend.

A little bit of time talking and.

Thinking about that, because there is this conversation now about what women are permitted to have, what they're permitted to reach for. And fashion is often the first line of critique when evaluating capacity.

[Robin Givhan]

Well, you know, I think when you look at, you know, the pictures of people with political clout in the United States, you know, that wall is overwhelmingly dominated by men and by white men, and they're all wearing suits. And if nothing else, that those images have sort of taught us that the person in the white guy in the room wearing the suit is probably the one in charge. And that has really taught us, you know, some of the sort of given us this sort of baseline idea of what power looks like. And we are obviously, you know, a very visual culture. And I think what is challenging or has been challenging for women is that there wasn't a template, right? The most unqualified guy can put on a dark suit and a red or blue tie, and he sort of looks like he's dressed for the part of power, right? And with women, there wasn't. There hasn't been this sort of easy template. Put this on, and it automatically sort of puts you into this sort of cliche power position. And, you know, I sort of half jokingly said that, you know, Hillary Clinton wore, you know, a million pantsuits in pink, yellow, marigold, and cantaloupe, so Kamala Harris could wear, you know, a gray pantsuit and have it not be a big deal. I mean, I think it took Hillary Clinton sort of creating. Helping to create this template, and it is very narrow, and it is really challenging when you are a woman who doesn't necessarily, necessarily sort of feel comfortable in that template, don't feel like it flatters you or you just don't want to do it. And then it becomes this matter of trying to figure out, okay, like, what is going to convey, like, my power. What is going to convey sort of gravitas and that crazy chemistry, right? It has to be that mix of gravitas and approachability and authority, but also not too tough, but not too sweet. And so it was just. It's always interesting to me to see how women who are in positions of authority and who are moving on to the next step on that ladder to see how they define power with a feminine voice. And, you know, I certainly have gotten backlash from people who are like, oh, like, why are you writing about women and what they're wearing? And my argument is, like, I think we should be writing more about what men are wearing, because it also says a lot about, you know, who they are in perhaps in more subtle ways. And, you know, in the past, I've also said that I feel like women have, you know, can use fashion in ways that are really helpful to communicating to the public. But, you know, when I was just sort of watching as you were running, and I still remember that beautiful blue dress, I just thought that you had sort of found this way of sort of evoking a sense of individuality, but also authority and modernity, which was really sort of another way of saying, you know, this is the future for progress, progressivism. And, you know, and I wanted. And I wanted to talk about that because it is something that I think is really important in our understanding of, like, who gets to be in charge. And it's important that we get used to a female vernacular of power so that it becomes as familiar and as standard as the male vernacular.

[Stacey Abrams]

So, Robin, you recently put out a.

Book called Make It Crashing the Gates of Culture with Virgil Abloh. Virgil Abloh was this groundbreaking fashion designer and cultural iconic who really remix who gets to decide taste in the high end world of fashion. And you have spent your career taking fashion into places that people don't expect to see it. You did this wonderful piece on Reclaiming the Flag, that documentary about the LGBTQIA community that really centered around the meaning of the flag for marginalized communities. And you spend such thoughtful time helping us articulate what we see in ourselves when we dress and how we understand the messages being sent to us. So my last question for you is the homework assignment I give to every guest, which is that you've got an audience listening to you, and they want ways to make it theirs. They want to reclaim this country. They feel the exhaustion you described, they feel the confusion that you evoked, but they also want to know how to make. How do we make it ours again and the role that fashion can play. So if you can tell this audience something you want them to do on these steps to freedom and power, they want to disrupt. If they want to deny, if they simply want to claim.

What should they do?

[Robin Givhan]

Hmm. Well, two things occur to me from the book, and one is actually something that I address in the acknowledgments. But one of the big lessons that I took from the reporting was the importance of. Of something very simple. And it sounds really Pollyanna ish, but it was about optimism. And Virgil Abloh was a really optimistic guy. And, you know, at one point during an interview, and we were actually talking about diversity within the fashion industry and whether or not the industry could change and grow and all of those, all the good things. And he said, I'm an optimist. I choose optimism. I choose to believe that people can change, things can be better. And I feel like it's such a simple yet powerful lesson because it can be so difficult to be optimistic, to maintain your optimistic them. And, you know, he did it not being naive, not, you know, being unable to see the hurdles, not being able to see the darkness. But he simply said, I choose to be optimistic. I choose to believe that the next day can be better. I choose to believe that I can be better, that other people can be better. And the other thing was, after he got the job at Vuitton, people were surprised because he didn't have the traditional background. And I was surprised, certainly, and, you know, he was thrilled. And he said, you know, I don't know why everyone is so surprised. I mean, I was designing a collection, I was getting better at my craft, so why not me? And I thought that response was indicative of his own sense of confidence. It was a challenge to the people who didn't think that he could do it or that he was worthy. And it was a kind of rebuke to those who sort of feel like, well, because I haven't checked off this box, this box and this box that I can't do something. Because the truth is, you might have checked off a bunch of other boxes that are just as important, but the industry or the culture is just not placing the same value on those boxes that you checked, even though perhaps they should. And so I think that combination of sort of remembering to ask yourself, why not me? When something needs to be solved, when a problem comes up, when there's a possibility, when there is a dream that seems impossible to just say, you know, why not me? And if you are, if you remember to be an optimist, you will continue to say, why not me? And at some point, hopefully, optimistically, people will say, yeah, why not?

[Stacey Abrams]

Robin Givan, writer, reporter, and remarkable fashion interpreter.

Thank you so much for joining us.

Today on Assembly Required.

[Robin Givhan]

Oh, it's been such a pleasure.

[Stacey Abrams]

As always on Assembly Required, we're here to give you real, actionable tools to face today's biggest challenges.

First, be curious.

If you enjoyed my conversation with Robin Givhan, please pick up her latest book.

Make It Crashing the Gates of Culture with Virgil Abloh.

Second, solve some problem problems. Of the 100 billion garments produced each year, 92 million end up in landfills, the equivalent of one garbage truck full of clothes.

Every single second.

To stop adding to the waste. Be mindful of your clothing consumption and shopping habits before clicking on that fast.

Fashion site for the latest trend at the cheapest price. I'm going to ask you to ask.

Yourself, do I really need this? Can I buy it from a sustainable source? Can I thrift something similar instead? I believe you're up to the challenge. And third, do some good. If you have old clothes or have been meaning to clean out your closet.

Don'T throw them away.

Instead, consider donating them to those in need. Look at Goodwill, your place of worship, or making a direct donation to local homeless shelters.

All of these are great places to start.

And as always, if you like what you hear, be sure to share this.

Episode and subscribe on all your favorite.

Platforms to help us meet the demands of the algorithms. Please rate the show and leave a comment. You can find us on YouTube, Spotify, Apple, or wherever you go to listen and learn. And please also check out my substack Assembly Notes for more information about what we discussed on the podcast and other tools to help us protect our democracy. As you may have noticed, we're going.

To keep Talking about the 10 Steps.

Campaign as a way to both recognize and activate against this authoritarian fascist regime. For more information, please visit 10stepscampaign.org Sign up and share. And as always, I'd love to hear more about what you're going to be.

Doing and what tools or resources you need.

If you have a report, a question or a comment for me, send it in. You can start with an email to assemblyrequiredricket.com or leave us a voicemail and you and your questions and comments might be featured on the pod. Our number is 213-293-9509.

Well, that wraps up this episode of.

Assembly Required with Stacey Abrams. Please be careful out there, be optimistic.

And I'll see you here next week.

Assembly Required is a crooked media production. Our lead show producer is Lacey Roberts and our associate producer is Farah Safari. Kiril Palaviv is our video producer. This episode was recorded and mixed by Charlotte Landis. Our theme song is by Vasilis Fotopoulos.

Thank you to Matt De Groat, Kyle.

Seglin, Tyler Boozer, Ben Hethcote and Priyanka.

Mantha for production support.

Our executive producers are Katie Long and me, Stacey Abrams.

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