Pod Save America — Episode Summary

Podcast: Pod Save America
Episode: The Roots of Political Violence and How We Prevent It
Host: Tommy Vietor (Crooked Media)
Guest: Dr. Liliana Mason (Johns Hopkins University, co-author of Radical American and Uncivil)
Date: September 21, 2025

Overview

In this episode, Tommy Vietor digs into America's fraught political atmosphere following the shocking assassination of far-right activist Charlie Kirk. The conversation with political scientist Dr. Liliana Mason explores the current threats and realities of political violence in the U.S., challenges public perceptions influenced by media and rhetoric, and considers both the historical and psychological roots of division and violence. Together, they examine whether the U.S. is facing something genuinely "new" and dangerous, or if the nation is wrestling with old demons in modern form, and what concrete (and individual) steps might help de-escalate the situation.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Is Political Violence Worse Now or Is This Just a Feeling?

• Data vs. Perception
  • Dr. Mason clarifies that America is not experiencing an "epidemic" of political violence, but there has been a noticeable increase in violent rhetoric and a few highly publicized violent events.
  • The overlap between America's "violence problem" and its "political problem" causes confusion about motivation behind high-profile attacks.
    • "We’re a country with a violence problem and a political problem and sometimes those overlap." (Dr. Mason, 04:44)

2. Partisan Gaps and Trends in Justifying Political Violence

• Dr. Mason and her co-author's research since 2017 shows only about 15-20% of both Democrats and Republicans say political violence is even somewhat justified—a number roughly doubled from seven percent in 2017, but with no clear partisan split:
  • "Sometimes Democrats are higher than Republicans, sometimes Republicans are higher than Democrats. It’s never very far apart and it’s never very consistently one party." (06:36)
• The percentage jumps significantly (up to 60%) if respondents are prompted with "the other side started it."
  • "That’s pretty scary because that’s what you’re hearing out of Republicans right now: ‘you shot at Trump, they killed Charlie Kirk, so we need to act.’" (Tommy Vietor, 09:13)
  • Dr. Mason warns about a "vicious cycle" of retaliation: "You can easily see the logical progression... We want to avoid that. Once it starts, it’s hard to stop." (09:32)

3. Generational Differences in Attitudes toward Political Violence

• Millennials and Gen Z are significantly more open to justifying political violence than older generations.
  • Only 58% of Gen Z and 71% of Millennials say violence is "never acceptable," versus 93% of Boomers.
  • "Young people tend to approve of violence more than older people, throughout time... our brains don’t mature perfectly by our early 20s." (Dr. Mason, 10:43)

4. The Dilemma for Media Coverage

• The media’s incentives ("if it bleeds, it leads") fuel perceptions of chaos and danger.
  • "If people have the perception that everything is spiraling out of control... they’re more willing to engage in risky and chaotic behavior." (Dr. Mason, 12:14)
• Stories hyped for clicks paint urban America as lawless, despite on-the-ground realities.

5. Rhetoric and Its Impact—Where Is the Line?

• Historical cases (e.g., Rwandan genocide radio) show rhetoric can "sprinkle petrol everywhere" (the stage for violence, waiting for a spark).
  • Experiments show even minimal, neutral anti-violence statements from leaders of either party reduce support for violence.
  • "Our leaders can make us less violent, too... It doesn’t matter which leader said it ... It’s just hearing from elected people and leaders." (Dr. Mason, 16:00)
• Worrisome when this responsibility is abdicated: "The fact that we don’t see people in the White House... trying to do that, that’s pretty worrying." (Dr. Mason, 18:11)

6. The Role of Influencers and Meta Narratives

• Elon Musk’s incendiary "violence is coming to you" speech (21:29) is called out as acutely dangerous because:
  • He has a large following among young men (most likely group to engage in violence).
  • Such rhetoric "tells them where to point their violence. It aims them at elected officials or just liberals in the neighborhood." (22:08)

7. The Rise of Social Identity Politics & Zero-Sum Thinking

• Mason traces how, since the 1960s, identities (race, religion, geography) have stacked atop party, making politics increasingly "us vs. them."
  • This breeds "status threat"—even when both sides could benefit, people want to come out "on top."
  • Classic social psychology experiments show people will take less for themselves if it means their group wins over "the other guy." (27:25–31:19)
  • "People always choose the condition where they get less money, but the other group gets even less.” (Dr. Mason, 27:25)

8. Immigration and the Authoritarian Playbook

• Immigration functions as a "scapegoat variable" globally—easy to target, especially non-white immigrants.
  • Trump’s success was tying America’s problems to a scapegoated group: "If we could just get rid of those people, then we’d be winners again." (35:10)
  • Democrats struggle with crafting emotionally resonant, villain-and-hero narratives in response.

9. Is the System's Dysfunction Fueling Violence?

• A lack of effective, trusted policymaking is dangerous, says Mason, but "explaining the medicine" is not as powerful as making people feel included and understood.
• Democrats might need to take a more emotionally and narratively compelling tack: identify clear villains (e.g., "billionaire oligarchs") and tell stories that resonate emotionally with voters. (39:34-41:12)

10. Geographic Fracturing and Real Consequences

• Abortion, vaccine mandates, and education differences are manifesting at the state level, risking a situation where "your physical rights as a human change as you drive across a highway." (42:35)
  • "It’s making this country more and more fractured." (Dr. Mason, 44:26)

11. International Examples and the "Status Threat" Crisis

• Once political divides line up with racial, religious, or ethnic lines, risk of civil war rises twelvefold ("countries where the political divide is lined up along racial, ethnic, or religious divides are 12 times more likely to fall into civil war." (47:13))
• The U.S. is rapidly approaching the moment when no one racial group is a majority, which historically is a flashpoint globally.
  • If the former majority sees electoral advantage slipping, they may turn against democratic norms—explains some current antidemocratic rhetoric and actions. (48:49)

12. Weaponizing ‘Cancel Culture’ and Eroding Norms

• The current administration’s attacks on media ("FCC calling over to a network and saying, fire a guy my president doesn’t like—that’s a clear First Amendment violation.") are described as not just "cancel culture," but actual government repression.
• Cancel culture has always existed ("in the 80s it was called political correctness"), but the instrumentalization by one party and executive action is new and troubling.

13. Lessons from the 1960s—and Today’s Distinct Danger

• The 1960s were violent and chaotic, but violence wasn't aligned on partisan (left-right) lines; today’s violence is more organized and embedded in party structures.
• "Now the violence is organized... it allows violence to be institutionalized in a way that we really don’t want it to be." (54:27)

14. Optimism, Agency, and What Individuals Can Do

• Social progress has spurred a backlash, but ultimately, whether it succeeds or not is up to "us collectively."
  • "We get to decide now whether this is a backlash and we get past it, or whether it succeeds." (Dr. Mason, 57:49)
• Individuals have more agency than they think, especially in reinforcing or rejecting eroding social norms of decency and compassion.
  • "It’s entirely up to you to be the spreader of social norms in your community and in your society." (Dr. Mason, 60:37)
  • Simply reaching out with human decency—"I’m so sorry this happened to you"—makes a real difference, and is reciprocated.

Memorable Quotes & Moments

• On status and social psychology:

  "People always choose the condition where they get less money, but the other group gets even less than them."
  — Dr. Liliana Mason [~31:00]

• On violence and cycles of reprisal:

  "The risk is that we end up in this sort of vicious cycle where one side starts it, the other side fights back... and nobody can stop it."
  — Dr. Liliana Mason [09:32]

• On restoring norms:

  "A lot of these things are norms... There’s no law that you have to be compassionate about the murder of a political figure, right? It’s a norm to be compassionate. And... the only way that social norms are enforced and spread is by us, by people reminding each other..."
  — Dr. Liliana Mason [60:37]

• On the 1960s vs. now:

  "The violence in the 60s ... was not structured along partisan lines... Now the violence is organized. And that’s what makes me worried, is that it’s organized along partisan lines, and that allows violence to be institutionalized in a way that we really don’t want it to be."
  — Dr. Liliana Mason [54:27]

• On the future of America’s demographic change:

  "There’s maybe a couple teeny tiny places ... but there’s basically been no country where the ethnic majority has become a minority in a peaceful and democratic fashion. Right. And that’s happening in the U.S. by 2045."
  — Dr. Liliana Mason [47:29]

• On the role of leaders in turning down the temperature:

  "It doesn’t have to be [Donald Trump]. As long as we have sustained condemnation from other people, that does help also."
  — Dr. Liliana Mason [20:42]

Notable Timestamps for Important Segments

• 02:31 — Introduction, summary of recent violence, framing the episode’s key questions
• 04:27–05:53 — Is there truly more political violence today, or just more perception/publicity?
• 06:36–09:32 — Is political violence a partisan issue? Evidence and dangerous escalation cycles
• 10:20–11:41 — Generational shifts on attitudes toward political violence
• 12:14–15:08 — Media’s role in escalating or calming perceptions of violence
• 16:00–18:11 — The impact and responsibility of political leader rhetoric
• 21:29–23:52 — Elon Musk, inciting speech, and the risk of influencers
• 24:16–31:19 — Political identity, status threat, and why voters vote against their own interests
• 35:10–39:13 — How immigration is scapegoated and the importance of narrative in politics
• 42:35–44:26 — Regional divides, state policy divergence, and their dangerous implications
• 47:13–48:49 — International warning signs: ethnic division and civil war risk
• 54:27–57:49 — The difference between 1960s violence and today’s partisan violence
• 59:05–61:50 — Personal agency, the importance of social norms, and steps individuals can take

Tone & Closing Thoughts

The episode, true to Pod Save America’s pragmatic, candid, and slightly sardonic style, acknowledges dark realities but maintains a focus on agency and the possibility of progress. Dr. Mason offers both sobering political science and accessible, practical advice, balanced by Tommy Vietor's persistent attempts to extract reasons for hope—however modest.

The message: While the risk of increased organized political violence is very real, especially as demographic and partisan divides deepen, Americans can still take steps—both as citizens (supporting responsible narratives, demanding better from leaders) and as individuals in their daily interactions—to resist normalization of cruelty, dehumanization, and violence.