The State Of the Union Is ... Long

Summary

Pod Save America Summary: "The State Of the Union Is ... Long" (Released March 5, 2025)

Host/Author: Crooked Media
Podcast Title: Pod Save America
Description: Pod Save America offers candid political discussions hosted by former Obama aides Jon Favreau, Jon Lovett, Dan Pfeiffer, and Tommy Vietor. The podcast breaks down weekly news, delves into key political issues, and engages with a variety of guests ranging from journalists to world leaders.

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1. Introduction to the Episode

The episode titled "The State Of the Union Is ... Long" centers around the analysis of former President Donald Trump's unprecedentedly lengthy State of the Union address, which spanned a record 99 minutes. The hosts delve into the content, delivery, and political implications of the speech, offering their perspectives on its effectiveness and reception.

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2. Overview of Trump's State of the Union Speech

Jon Lovett initiates the discussion by highlighting the sheer length of Trump's address:

[02:07] Jon Lovett: "Final count was 99 minutes. So that's the longest speech in history."

The hosts immediately recognize the speech's attempt to dominate the narrative through its duration and content.

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3. Analysis of Speech Content and Style

Dan Pfeiffer remarks on the perceived monotony and reiteration within the speech:

[02:16] Dan Pfeiffer: "It felt longer than 99 minutes."

Jon Favreau comments on Trump's mix of past successes and familiar rhetoric:

[02:29] Jon Favreau: "It's a greatest hit speech, peppered in with some new stunts and interesting, scary moments, but, like, a lot of what we've heard before."

The hosts agree that Trump's speech lacked substantial new policy announcements, focusing instead on reiterating previous talking points and personal achievements.

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4. Procedural Interruptions and Decorum

A notable moment in the speech was Al Green of Texas interrupting Trump to protest cuts to Medicaid:

[04:02] Al Green: "We won the popular vote by big numbers and won counties in our country."

This interruption led to immediate removal:

[04:30] Jon Favreau: "Al Green of Texas starts interrupting him. And then, you know, Mike Johnson was ready for it and decided he was going to tell the Sergeant of arms to get rid of him."

Dan Pfeiffer critiques the significance of this act:

[06:07] Dan Pfeiffer: "It's just like they plan for this moment. They plan to use taxpayer funded law enforcement to remove dissenting voices from the Capitol."

The hosts debate whether this interruption was impactful or merely another procedural hiccup, ultimately finding it emblematic of the current political tensions.

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5. Key Policy Discussions

a. Medicaid and Budget Cuts

Tommy Vietor notes the minimal focus on Medicaid:

[35:46] Jon Lovett: "Donald Trump never mentioned Medicaid or Medicare, which I thought was kind of interesting."

Dan Pfeiffer emphasizes the financial implications:

[36:11] Dan Pfeiffer: "It's an absolute must do. And I would also say embedded in that exact bill is the bill to lift the debt limit."

The discussion underscores Trump's lack of substantive policy proposals, particularly concerning critical social programs like Medicaid.

b. Tariffs on Mexico, Canada, and China

Jon Favreau highlights the economic repercussions:

[22:10] Al Green: "Mexico and Canada, have you heard of that? ... It won't be much."

Dan Pfeiffer criticizes the rationale and potential fallout:

[23:08] Tommy Vitor: "Canada has to then make up a fake solution to the fake problem, and then we still get the tariffs, which have real consequences."

The hosts agree that Trump's tariffs may backfire, citing increased costs for consumers and strained international relations.

c. Foreign Policy: Greenland and Gaza

Trump's foreign policy mentions included Greenland's future and the situation in Gaza:

[29:53] Al Green: "We strongly support your right to determine your own future, but we need it, really, for international world security."

Tommy Vietor expressed skepticism about the effectiveness:

[31:10] Tommy Vitor: "It's all, it's all farce. That's why, you know, Canada's like, fuck you."

The analysis reflects concern over Trump's handling of complex international issues without clear strategies.

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6. Reception and Polling

Polls indicate mixed reactions to Trump's speech:

• 44% very positive reviews.
• 31% negative feedback.
• 66% believe his policies will move the U.S. in the right direction.
• 80% view Al Green's interruption as inappropriate.

Jon Lovett and Dan Pfeiffer discuss the implications of these numbers, noting that while some parts of the speech might resonate, overall effectiveness remains questionable.

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7. Democratic Response and Its Challenges

The Democratic response, delivered by Senator Alyssa Slotkin, aimed for a concise and coherent message amidst Trump's lengthy address. The hosts critique the format and delivery:

Dan Pfeiffer reflects on the struggle to craft a impactful response:

[47:39] Dan Pfeiffer: "There is no election tomorrow, the next day. There are elections in November, but they are state elections. We do not have to respond to how people think about Donald Trump right now."

Tommy Vietor suggests improvements:

[44:21] Tommy Vietor: "We don't need to say things are as American as apple pie. I would say if you can do the setting over again, have some people there, give it some energy."

The discussion highlights the difficulty Democrats face in responding effectively to Trump's narrative while addressing pressing issues like economic costs and government corruption.

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8. Conclusion and Final Thoughts

The hosts conclude that Trump's State of the Union was more about maintaining his narrative and less about presenting actionable policies. They express concern over the lack of meaningful discourse on critical issues and the polarized political environment.

Jon Favreau encapsulates the sentiment:

[53:15] Jon Favreau: "It's also, by the way, at this point, I agree, these stories specifically, I don't know what they get us, but then we just don't really know or have a good way of measuring."

The episode underscores the challenges in navigating current political dynamics, the importance of substantive policy discussions, and the need for effective political communication.

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Notable Quotes with Timestamps:

• Jon Lovett: "[02:07] ... that's the longest speech in history."
• Dan Pfeiffer: "[06:07] ... use taxpayer funded law enforcement to remove dissenting voices from the Capitol."
• Jon Favreau: "[22:39] ... doctor Strange, though. I'm not saying we won't get our hair muscled a little bit."
• Tommy Vietor: "[29:08] ... Zendeba depth."
• Jon Favreau: "[36:53] ... especially in your first speech."
• Dan Pfeiffer: "[47:39] ... we do not have to respond to how people think about Donald Trump right now."

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This detailed summary captures the essence of the Pod Save America episode, focusing on the critical analysis of Donald Trump's State of the Union speech, the responses from both sides, and the broader implications for U.S. politics. It provides a comprehensive overview for listeners who haven't tuned into the episode, highlighting key discussions, insights, and conclusions drawn by the hosts.

Transcript

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[Jon Favreau]

I'm Jon Levitt.

[Dan Pfeiffer]

I'm Dan Pfeiffer.

[Tommy Vitor]

Tommy Vitor.

[Jon Lovett]

So that was the speech. It was the longest. Donald Trump just gave the longest State of the Union in history.

[Tommy Vitor]

What was the final count?

[Jon Lovett]

Final count was 99 minutes. So that's the longest speech in history. It was. I don't know. Anyone have thoughts off the bat?

[Dan Pfeiffer]

It felt longer than 99 minutes.

[Jon Lovett]

It did. It did. It was a lot of.

[Tommy Vitor]

Yeah, lots of long descriptions of hideous, awful crimes.

[Jon Lovett]

Yeah. His speeches are always long.

[Jon Favreau]

They're always long.

[Dan Pfeiffer]

Yeah.

[Jon Favreau]

I mean, look, it was a greatest hit speech, peppered in with some new stunts and interesting, scary moments, but, like, a lot of what we've heard before, but he's really relishing in it. He's really enjoying his. He's really enjoying his time up there.

[Dan Pfeiffer]

Yeah, you could. With Trump, it's always, he can give his rally s speech or he can give a more formal joint address. In this case, he decided to do both.

[Jon Lovett]

Yeah, right. I would say it was not surprising in any way.

[Tommy Vitor]

No, nothing really new.

[Jon Lovett]

Like, it felt what I expected. We said this before in our livestream, like, lot of accomplishments for most of the speech, very little news, new policy, and we'll go through some of it. I think what was notable is at the beginning, you know, he did his. We've had the greatest month in any. Of any president in history. Number two was George Washington. Blah, blah, blah. So he's bragging, bragging. And then early on, there was a little bit of an interruption at the beginning of the speech. So let's listen to that.

[Al Green]

We won the popular vote by big numbers and won counties in our country.

[Jon Lovett]

Mr. Green, take your seat. Take your seat, sir.

[Al Green]

Take your seat.

[Jon Lovett]

Finding that members continue to engage in willful and concerted disruption of proper decorum, the chair now directs the Sergeant at arms to restore order. Remove this gentleman from the chamber. So that was something, basically. So Donald Trump does his whole, you know, we won seven swing states, greatest popular vote victory ever.

[Jon Favreau]

How much you even bench, bro?

[Jon Lovett]

Yeah. A bunch of Democrats start making some noise. Al Green of Texas starts interrupting him. And then, you know, Mike Johnson was ready for it and decided he was going to tell the Sergeant of arms to get rid of him.

[Jon Favreau]

Yeah.

[Jon Lovett]

What did you guys think of that?

[Jon Favreau]

So his line, right, is you have no mandate to cut Medicaid. That's what he. That's what he was. That was the message of his protest. So at least, you know, he's trying to make a moment about Medicaid. That's what he. That's all just to quote the man.

[Jon Lovett]

Yeah.

[Jon Favreau]

And to, you know, it was an act of protest. Yeah.

[Jon Lovett]

Like, it didn't bother me.

[Tommy Vitor]

It didn't. Not like it wouldn't. It's not what I would have done. But it didn't bother me. I kind of didn't hate that. It interrupted Trump and got him out of his flow for, like, 10 minutes. Wait till the Republicans compare it to January 6th. That's when this. This is gonna get really annoying.

[Jon Favreau]

Yeah.

[Jon Lovett]

You mean when a bunch of protesters were in the chamber desecrating, breaking down Congress. And then, and then, then Trump pardoned them all.

[Dan Pfeiffer]

I'm shocked that many of them weren't invited as the guests of Republicans tonight.

[Jon Lovett]

Yeah, I thought there would be more of that. More January 6th.

[Dan Pfeiffer]

Curry favor with them before January 6th next time. I think a couple, I think there are a couple points here. One is, if you watch the video, there's something really fascistic about the whole thing. The way Trump, when he starts protesting, points at the door and then JD Vance starts pointing and then you see Mike Johnson sort of point at the sergeant of arms to tell them to go get Al Green. Like it is a deeply, like, we're in the United States Capitol here. Moments later, Trump will say he ended government censorship as he removes him from it. You know, he.

[Jon Lovett]

This is why Mark Zuckerberg's so excited about him.

[Dan Pfeiffer]

It's just like they plan for this moment. They plan to use taxpayer funded law enforcement to remove dissenting voices from the Capitol.

[Jon Lovett]

Well, we should tell the backstory. The reason they planned for this moment is all bad things. Start with Axios had a report that Democrats were going to bring eggs in pocket constitutions and try to disrupt the speech. And there was a couple reports and it was sourced to unnamed Democrats. And so then Republicans, some Republicans were like, there's a report from Axios that Democrats are going to throw eggs at Donald Trump. Which report at all. And so then the House Freedom Caucus had a post that was like, if Democrats interrupt this speech, we will have, we will censure them. Which, by the way, now they're saying that Al Green could be censured. Oh, no. Yeah, I know. What was that? Going to do a censure, by the way, is the House votes and says you're bad. Seems very quaint.

[Dan Pfeiffer]

And so members include Marjorie Taylor Greene.

[Jon Lovett]

Right. And so they were clearly all ready for this, which is why. Which is. But also.

[Jon Favreau]

But they were very much ready to do like a kind of hand gesture of like, get a map. They like really want to do a hand gesture and like applauding, restoring order, I guess. Like what? I can't. I feel like, I feel conflicted about it. Right. Because, you know, like there are people joking, like, oh, Democrats. If you really think Donald Trump is an authoritarian menace, wearing different colored hats is a very silly thing to do. Right. Like, you know, in response to the authoritarian menace, we coordinated our out. That sounds ridiculous. But like, but like, then I think.

[Dan Pfeiffer]

Because there were people in purple, people in white.

[Jon Favreau]

Yeah, there was.

[Jon Lovett]

You thought he was going to Lie. But we had signs that said false. Right.

[Jon Favreau]

But also, like, yeah, they're like some people coordinated in pink and purple and white. And then it's like, well, that's just a bunch of different outfits. But like, the. The. Then you think, okay, so what should Democrats do? Right? Should they just like this, you know, don't lend Donald Trump the pomp and circumstance of the State of the Union, or really a joint address to Congress.

[Jon Lovett]

To be exact, of the Union.

[Jon Favreau]

But like, then you say, all right, Democrats either walk out or they don't show up. Like, what does that get us? Right? Like, we kind of look childish. We look like. We're not being. Like, we look partisan. So I don't know what the right thing to do is. Like, I don't know if protesting is. I don't know if sitting there is just. It's tough. Cause it's hard to feel because we don't have a lot of power.

[Tommy Vitor]

It's worth remembering, though, when mtg Marjorie Taylor Greene interrupted Joe Biden, he then had that back and forth with her. He looked really strong, and he was kind of sharp and making light of it. Kind of making fun of her a bit. And it was a good moment for him. And I don't know if MTG keeps standing and won't sit down and keep screaming. Maybe the sergeant of arms kicks her out. But I do think Dan's point is right, that it did look a little authoritarian in the moment.

[Jon Favreau]

Yeah. But he also didn't want, like, Marjorie Taylor Greene didn't. She sat down. Al Green didn't. The thing is, also, Trump didn't have, like, a whole exchange. He kind of didn't.

[Tommy Vitor]

No, he was just like, get her out.

[Jon Favreau]

Yeah.

[Dan Pfeiffer]

It just. Not to go all Daniel Dale on this, but every. Al Green's right. There is no mandate for Medicaid cuts. And what Trump said about his mandate was fucking absurd.

[Jon Lovett]

Yeah. I mean, getting up there. You're the President of the United States getting up there to talk about the seven swing states. You won the popular vote saying that the president who was before you was the worst president in history. Like, that doesn't rate high on the decorum scale.

[Dan Pfeiffer]

Donald Trump's popular vote margin is smaller than every popular vote winner since al Gore in 2000. Hillary Clinton won the popular vote in 2016 by more than Donald Trump did in 2024.

[Jon Lovett]

He sticks a violent mob in the Capitol. What are we doing? None of this. Like, it's. Was it effective? Was it not effective? It doesn't matter. We're like, way. We're through the looking glass now, Al Green getting kicked out or not. It's like. It's not even. Who cares?

[Jon Favreau]

I think, like, well, I guess the reason. It's like, I know I have the same. Like, we're through the looking glass. And it's like, okay, well, what should they do?

[Jon Lovett]

They're so sitting there.

[Jon Favreau]

We're on the other side of the looking glass. We're on the wrong side of the fucking mirror. We're still here. So what do we do all day?

[Jon Lovett]

Well, you stand up, you get kicked out or you don't. I really don't think either matters. I don't think it either has an effect. I don't think we're gonna remember this much longer, I guess was my point. Okay, so then he keeps going. He does the accomplishments.

[Jon Favreau]

He does keep going.

[Jon Lovett]

Yeah. Does the accomplishments. He gets to. And then he gets to Doge. And when he gets to Doge, first of all, he says, Elon Musk is the head of Doge, which is interesting, because in court, they're arguing that he was not the head of Doge.

[Jon Favreau]

He's just support staff. That's what he said at the Cabinet meeting.

[Jon Lovett]

So some plaintiffs in a lawsuit immediately filed to the court and saying, oh, by the way, Donald Trump, the president, just said that Elon Musk is head of Doge. And then he went through some of the doge cuts.

[Al Green]

$40 million to improve the social and economic inclusion of sedentary migrants. Nobody knows what that is. $8 million to promote LGBTQI plus in the African nation of Lesotho, which nobody has ever heard of. $8 billion for making mice transgender. $10 million for male circumcision in Mozambique, $20 million for the Arab Sesame street in the Middle East.

[Jon Favreau]

8 million to make mice transgender, and 8 million to turn them back. And some of those mice, by the way, what's so fucking terrible is that some of those trans mice then, like, kind of defeated a bunch of other mice in all these mazes, and it's like, is that fair to have trans mice competing against cisgender mice in the.

[Jon Lovett]

U.S. you know what's nice is that he brought one of those trans mice to the State of the Union that was sitting right next to Melania.

[Jon Favreau]

Yeah. Made him head of the Park Service.

[Jon Lovett]

And that's all you need to know about the speech. Oh, my God.

[Tommy Vitor]

Sign the EO right there.

[Jon Lovett]

What a stupid speech. Yeah. So first of all, like, I haven't looked all this up. I'm guessing a lot of that probably isn't true for sure. The reason I know that is not just because I'm guessing then he did the long thing about Social Security where he repeated the whole thing about, like, 150 year olds and 300 year olds getting benefits and this and that. None of which is true. Not only has it been fact checked by, like, every media organization, but Donald Trump's head of Social Security, the administrator, the person that's now the administrator after everyone else resigned, was like, oh, by the way, 200 year olds aren't getting Social Security. That wasn't so. Like, even his own administration has said that's wrong yet. And he just went through the whole thing, did the whole thing. 200 year olds are getting this and this. It just went on and on and.

[Dan Pfeiffer]

On for, like, five minutes.

[Jon Favreau]

Yeah.

[Jon Lovett]

Which makes me think that all the Doge. The Doge cuts that he mentioned are probably not accurate either, but I don't know what you guys thought about that.

[Jon Favreau]

Yeah.

[Tommy Vitor]

It's just a bunch of people who don't have a date of death associated with their record. They're not getting benefits. You know, they're just making this part up. And the Mozambique grant for circumcision was to a nonprofit to do HIV and AIDS prevention. Like, you can explain all these things. It just takes time.

[Dan Pfeiffer]

I mean, ultimately, all of these battles over government spending is about specifics and who can get the more evocative examples. And like, probably, even though it's mostly bullshit, this was one of the more effective parts of the speech for Trump, because he's got to go up there and lists a bunch of programs that most Americans would be concerned in the unfair context in which Trump delivered it, be concerned about their taxpayers going to that. Then we stand up with our much smaller, teeny, tiny megaphone and we talk about all the cuts that are coming from Doge. Well, not our false signs, but we have been winning politically the battle over Doge because the focus has been on cutting the people in charge of protecting nuclear plants, the faa, air traffic controls, and the Head Start Department of Education, those sorts of things. And that's the battle we're going to be in for the next year on these budget things.

[Jon Lovett]

Yeah. I mean, people go into this thinking that there's a lot of waste and inefficiency in government. And so when he lists those programs, people are probably like, oh, my God, I thought it was bad, but I didn't know it was that bad. That's probably the normal reaction to that. I'm sure that you don't know that it was all. Or bullshit or exaggerated or whatever.

[Jon Favreau]

It's also. Look again, it's like, you know, defending these programs is always a trap. And it's like, fine, we live in a world where defending really good things is a trap, but a lot of science sounds ridiculous until it makes the world a much better place. You could probably go back and describe research into stealth airplanes. It's like they're trying to make invisible airplanes so, you know, you can come up.

[Jon Lovett]

You're for the mice.

[Jon Favreau]

Yeah. Yeah. Well, I'm for a process of assigning grants that allow you to do medical research in all kinds of ways. Like we study all kinds of things in mice before we study them in people. And like, I. Like. Of course, of course we did a.

[Jon Lovett]

Few of those lines in the, In Obama's State of the Unions. Got the salmon, got the milk.

[Jon Favreau]

Right. Well, like that, Right.

[Jon Lovett]

We were talking about this earlier that it is like a central conceit of the movie Dave.

[Jon Favreau]

Yes. And in Dave, right, he goes through and he says, like, we're. We're spending money to convince people they were right to buy a car they already bought. It's like, isn't the government stupid? And that's what the 90s did. And now we live in the fucking aftermath. Stupid 90s. Yeah.

[Jon Lovett]

Here we are. So it took him a while to get to the central concern of most voters, which is the cost of everything and affordability. The first issue he talked about in depth was trans athletes talked a lot about that. And then finally, somewhere in the 30 minute mark, 40 minute mark, I don't know what it was, I lost track. He got into inflation and he did mention the price of eggs, but he had someone else to blame.

[Al Green]

Joe Biden especially, let the price of eggs get out of control. The egg price is out of control.

[Tommy Vitor]

He blamed everything on Joe Biden. He ran harder against Joe Biden in that speech than he did in the campaign at times. It was constant.

[Jon Lovett]

Yeah. What do we think about the inflation stuff and the cost stuff? Did he.

[Jon Favreau]

Well, he's just sort of like, he. He's still in a window where it is, like, plausible to blame your predecessor. I think it's ridiculous. It's no longer apparently ridiculous and embarrassing to brag about your political victory and then spend a few minutes blaming your predecessor for all of your problems in such explicit detail, especially in your first speech. Right. It used to be that that would have been seen as ridiculous and beneath the office and contemptible, but we don't feel those things anymore, I guess. But like, okay, all Right. Still Joe Biden's fault. Is that gonna be true in three months? In six months?

[Tommy Vitor]

I mean, not a guy who's known to lean into challenges and take their face off.

[Jon Favreau]

That' that's right. Well, let's see if you can break that record. But like, you know, he's, he, he has only been president for a month, so he has some leeway to say I am still taking, like that's not, not a, he's a ridiculous person, but that's not a ridiculous position.

[Dan Pfeiffer]

There's a specific question of blaming Joe Biden for the price, the current spike in egg prices. Right.

[Jon Lovett]

You think that lands with people?

[Dan Pfeiffer]

No, but I, I don't. I think people, as we know people, are not particularly interested in the cost of inflation. They're just mainly interested in blaming the person in charge when it happens. But the bigger issue here for me is inflation is the number one issue in the CBS poll. 80% of people think it should be a top priority for Joe Biden. Sorry. God damn it. 80% of people like Joe Biden. I should do these things this late at night. 80% of people think that inflation should be a top priority for Donald Trump. 29% of people think it is a top priority. He spent two minutes on inflation. He said nothing about lowering the cost of housing, groceries, day to day costs.

[Jon Lovett]

He did energy and he did energy and drilling. Yeah, I'm going to do something.

[Dan Pfeiffer]

He did nothing. No short term relief for anyone right now. Inflation costs are. Inflation concerns are going up. Our friend Peter Hamby has something in his POC newsletter tonight about polling of Gen Z men. And Trump's approval rating on inflation has dropped 14 points in a month. People are souring on the economy on which is what they care about. It's what the people who put him in office, people who will decide the midterms care about. And he did not bother to talk about it for more than two minutes. He basically hand waved at the whole thing. And I think that is a massive strategic blunder over the long term because it kind of speaks to the mentality of the administration and you just can't ignore the main thing that got you elected.

[Jon Lovett]

Yeah. If you really wanted to focus on inflation and take it seriously, you would. And you wanted to, you know, indirectly or even directly blame the last administration, say I inherited this mess, the costs were high and now I'm gonna take it seriously. And you know, Scott Besant said on the Treasury Secretary said this weekend, I think on the Sunday shows we're creating an affordability czar or something like that. Which is of course bullshit. But in a State of the Union.

[Dan Pfeiffer]

You could say that.

[Jon Lovett]

Yeah, you can say that. Then you can add some policy around it. You can do this thing. He just, he kind of, he didn't even try. I mean, we'll talk about the tax, he talked about the tax cuts. I guess we can talk about tax.

[Jon Favreau]

Cut talks about energy prices.

[Jon Lovett]

Yeah, yeah, but also the tax cuts. He's like, he did the no tax on tips. He did the no tax on overtime. No tax on Social Security benefits. He added, no, the, the loans on a car loan. The interest on a car loan will be tax deductible. Keep in mind none of this, none of that is in the Republican budget that passed. So, like it's Trump's party. He's like, maybe they'll get in later, maybe the Senate will do it. But none of the stuff that he talked about, the tax cuts for like actual working people, middle class people are in the budget the past. It's like largely tax cuts for rich people.

[Tommy Vitor]

Yeah. And the taxing interest on car loans look like a very regressive yes tax.

[Jon Favreau]

And just like all of these things, no tax on tip, the Social Security, making Social Security tax deductible. All these things are ways of saying you're doing a bunch of middle class tax cuts when in actuality you're going to do a giant tax cuts for the rich and only bring down rates for the middle class a tiny bit and spend a little bit extra if you do it at all on some of these other ways of lowering taxes. But of course, like, okay, so you've decided you're not taxing tips for somebody that's a waiter. But if you're a barista and you don't make as much on tips, you still pay the rate you paid before. Like, why do those people not deserve a tax break? Right? Like, I'm fine cut the taxes on tips, but like you're choosing between different working class people to make that part of the bill cheaper while doing a massive multi trillion dollar tax cut for the richest.

[Jon Lovett]

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[Tommy Vitor]

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[Jon Lovett]

What more can we say to people on this one?

[Tommy Vitor]

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[Jon Lovett]

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[Tommy Vitor]

Running out.

[Jon Lovett]

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[Al Green]

Mexico and Canada, have you heard of that? Stories like Jeff's remind us that tariffs are not just about protecting American jobs. They're about protecting the soul of our country. Tariffs are about making America rich again and making America great again. And it's happening and it will happen rather quickly. There'll be a little disturbance, but we're okay with that. It won't be much. No, you're not.

[Jon Lovett]

Oh, feels like that's going to come back to bite him in the ass. The tariffs, the little disturbance.

[Jon Favreau]

Yes, it's very like doctor Strange, though. I'm not saying we won't get our hair muscle a little bit, you know, like very like. You mean. I mean the disturbance being like a possible recession, rising costs, people being unable to afford the basic cost of life. That's the disturbance.

[Jon Lovett]

Not Only that he said disturbance I hadn't caught until we just heard it again. The second line, we're okay with that.

[Tommy Vitor]

It's like, are we? Who's we? Don't look at me.

[Dan Pfeiffer]

Yeah, billionaires. Might be.

[Tommy Vitor]

The tariffs you put in place today are a huge deal. Canada and Mexico account for 40% of U.S. imports and exports. Last year, 40% of cars and trucks sold in the U.S. are imported. The Canadians slapped a bunch of retaliatory tariffs on us. The Chinese, their statement was like, fuck you. This means war. So depending on how long this lasts, it could end very, very badly. And I don't know that brushing it off in the State of the Union is a very smart play.

[Dan Pfeiffer]

This issue cannot be that dismissive of jacking up people's costs at a time of high inflation.

[Jon Lovett]

So Howard Lutnick, the Commerce Secretary, today was like, you know, we're talking to Canada and Mexico and we might as early as tomorrow announce that there's a reduction in these tariffs. Not a pause, but maybe reduction or whatever. Like I can. Do you guys think that he's going to keep this going, this trade war? Because after the stock market today, there was like a segment on Fox of some reporter. Fox News, some reporter at like a. A car dealership. And the guy owns the car dealership is like, yeah, I got this. This truck sitting on the lot was $80,000. Now it's going to be. I'm not sorry.

[Dan Pfeiffer]

He did say it was 80,000.

[Jon Lovett]

Yeah. This trucking law is $8,000. Now it's going to be another $20,000. No. 1' and I think this could be really bad for him. I know we say that about everything with Trump, but I don't know. Prices getting jacked up that high for a long time seems.

[Dan Pfeiffer]

Yeah, it absolutely is deeply politically dangerous for him because it gets at the. He has stepped. When inflation went with Biden, you could talk about all these other things that were. But he has decided to make a specific policy decision that he has talked about is he says it's his favorite word in the English language to make your costs higher. And will he stick with it? That's an open question. He does not. He tends to run at the first sign of distress. So we'll see what happens here. He did stick the Chinese tariffs in his first term. Stuck with them the whole way.

[Jon Favreau]

They were more targeted than this.

[Dan Pfeiffer]

They were more targeted. And then he had to spend all of the money and then some. That be from the tariffs, bailing out the farms.

[Jon Lovett]

He didn't exempt Energy from Canada. So like gas prices are gonna, the.

[Tommy Vitor]

Energy tariffs are only 10%, not 25%.

[Jon Favreau]

Which is based on lobbying from the oil industry. But like.

[Jon Lovett]

Right, but it's, it's still like energy prices already went up to that.

[Jon Favreau]

And it's not just about, it's not just about what we import. What we import. Like if you, you know, he's obsessed with this trade deficit. We have a trade deficit with Canada because of oil. Because we use an incredible amount of oil that comes from Canada. If you put that aside, we have a trade surplus with Canada. Canada is our biggest customer. They are our biggest client. They buy a ton of stuff from us. Like they are a customer, right? For everything. Put oil aside. They are a customer. We need them in terms of what we, they buy more from us than we buy from them, which means we need them. And so it's all, it's all farce. That's why, you know, Canada's like, fuck you, you know, so, yeah, like, I don't know how bad this has to get. What kind of like whether he wants a fig leaf on this. I do think if he, if he does, if he does lift it, like that's the thing is if he now lifts it really quickly, he looks pretty weak for having put it on for a couple of days. And so these tariffs were always more powerful for him prospectively than they are now that they're in place. So I just have no idea.

[Jon Lovett]

I also think that the polling on this, you get some polls that show that people are somewhat favorable to tariffs on China on Chinese goods. But the Canadian tariffs are very unpopular. Mexico's pretty unpopular. They're not popular now. They're gonna be even less popular when people are paying a lot more for shit. We'll see how the stock market does. But like, I think this is crazy.

[Tommy Vitor]

I don't get the end game. But like, this is what he's been promising to do for a long time. He's the only thing he talks about. He's relentless, he's hell bent. So it's like it doesn't make sense. But I think he's going to keep doing it because why build up a bunch of nonsense and then stop?

[Jon Lovett]

I just get into this and, you know, maybe he reduces the Canada and Mexico ones, but he spoke at length in the State of the Union tonight about the reciprocal tariffs that are going into effect on April 2, not April 1, because he didn't want everyone to think it was an April fool's joke is what he said.

[Tommy Vitor]

The tariffs on Canada are, ostensibly because fentanyl is coming across the border. That's just completely made up. 0.2% of all seizures of fentanyl come across the Canadian border. All of it is coming from Mexico. So why the fuck are we tariffing these people? He can't explain it. And Trudeau took a bunch of steps to try to address his concerns. They named a Fentanyl czar. They spent a bunch of money. They put, like, Black Hawk helicopters on the border and drones, and he tariffed them anyway.

[Dan Pfeiffer]

So fucking stupid. It's like he made up a fake problem. Canada has to then make up a fake solution to the fake problem, and then we still get the tariffs, which have real consequences.

[Jon Lovett]

Yeah, it's crazy. So then he gets into. Starts talking about the rest of the world. I guess that was his segue, talking about Canada and Mexico and the tariffs, and, you know, he had a little bit to say about all the important problems in the world right now.

[Al Green]

And I also have a message tonight for the incredible people of Greenland. We strongly support your right to determine your own future, but we need it, really, for international world security. And I think we're going to get it. One way or the other, we're going to get it. The United States has sent hundreds of billions of dollars to support Ukraine's defense. Do you want to keep it going for another five years? Yeah. Yeah, you would say. Pocahontas says yes. A lot of things are happening in the Middle East. People have been talking about that so much lately with everything going on with Ukraine and Russia. A lot of things are happening in the Middle East. Rough neighborhood.

[Jon Lovett]

Actually, that was the Gaza section.

[Tommy Vitor]

Zendeba depth.

[Jon Favreau]

Yes. They're long. Well made this point. But just that, like, if you showed this to Republicans five, ten years ago and said, this is going to be what you'll be applauding, be like, you're full of, no way. This is the dumbest shit I've ever seen.

[Tommy Vitor]

Tough neighborhood.

[Jon Lovett]

Gonna get Greenland one way or the other. Attacked Elizabeth Warren on Ukraine. And then the Middle east is a tough neighborhood.

[Dan Pfeiffer]

I mean, as you know, as you guys know with speechwriters, like, the amount of time spent on an issue in the State of the Union is in the administration's eyes, like. Like directly proportionate to how much we care about it. And so by that definition, his top foreign policy priority is getting Greenland.

[Jon Lovett]

Yeah, well, it's probably right.

[Jon Favreau]

We didn't get there. But he also talked about getting the Panama Canal back as well.

[Jon Lovett]

Yeah, well, he talks about getting the Panama Canal back. And then that segued into some love for his Secretary of State. Let's hear that clip.

[Al Green]

And we have Marco Rubio in charge. Good luck, Marco. Now we know who to blame if anything goes wrong. Marco's been amazing and he's going to do a great job. Think of it, he got 100 votes. You know, he was approved with actually 99, but. And I'm either very, very happy about that or I'm very concerned about it.

[Tommy Vitor]

The, the bar on the Panama Canal keeps changing. Do we want the full canal? I thought we just wanted cheaper rates or maybe to pass through for free. Before it was about Chinese influence, but today this Hong Kong based holding company that owned two ports on either side of the canal, sold them to blackrock. So I thought he was going to take the win on that.

[Jon Lovett]

I thought he was going to do more on that too, when I saw that story. Right.

[Jon Favreau]

Like, has he even talked about that story?

[Tommy Vitor]

I feel like scene.

[Jon Favreau]

It seems like he's getting what he wants before it became the whole thing.

[Tommy Vitor]

That was a great. I thought it was perfectly timed for the State of the Union. That's why they rolled it out.

[Jon Lovett]

I thought Rubio shout out was notable because I think that Rubio is his patsy on foreign policy.

[Tommy Vitor]

So great.

[Jon Lovett]

And like when things, I mean, he said it tonight and I think he means it when things go wrong, he's going to blame it on. Yeah, he's going to blame it on Marco Rubio. And so like, you know, his planned and annexation of Panama, Canada, Greenland, Gaza. Yeah, it's all, it's all on Marco. Marco fucks it up and that's it.

[Jon Favreau]

There were a couple of stories about Rubio feeling like, you know, he's got his MAGA minders around him. And there was another story about how he's worried that he's not getting the influence he thought he was gonna have. And part of me thought this was a little bit Donald Trump, at least seeing those or hearing about those and kind of like bucking them up, you know, kind of giving it a little shine. In the State of the Union.

[Dan Pfeiffer]

I felt like it was Michael Corleone kissing Fredo.

[Tommy Vitor]

But like, you know, maybe Middle east is a tough neighborhood, covers it, but the Gaza ceasefire is currently falling apart.

[Jon Lovett]

Yeah.

[Tommy Vitor]

Israel is currently blockading all aid shipments into Gaza. Things are not on a good trajectory. You think you might talk about it.

[Dan Pfeiffer]

In a normal presidency. I would have taken that, the absence of talking about it, cuz Trump would normally tout his role in getting that ceasefire as evidence that they think it's falling apart, but who the really fuck knows here? Like, they just decided they want to talk about it. Right.

[Tommy Vitor]

But why not take the win on getting the ceasefire, getting the hostages back, and then using it as a moment to like, get everyone in that chamber to applaud for whatever you say about Israel and condemn Hamas. That's when you could have gotten everyone.

[Dan Pfeiffer]

On their feet and just hold on to your seat here. But what if he actually used the speech to send a message about what he wanted? Right.

[Tommy Vitor]

That'd be useful.

[Jon Favreau]

That is the one takeaway from the.

[Dan Pfeiffer]

Entire speech is at no point is he using the speech to try to accomplish anything.

[Tommy Vitor]

Right.

[Jon Favreau]

I think he sent a pretty powerful message to the Danes. To the Danes.

[Dan Pfeiffer]

The Danes would be the example.

[Jon Favreau]

The Danes are shit in their fucking pants right now.

[Jon Lovett]

He started that section on Greenland by saying, we support whatever the people of Greenland want to do, but we're going to get you one way or the other.

[Tommy Vitor]

Yeah.

[Jon Lovett]

That's how he ended it. And there was some stuff in between about he was going to take Greenland to new heights. Yeah.

[Tommy Vitor]

And initially when he made that comment, what heights?

[Jon Lovett]

What is he going to Trump? Greenland. And I don't know if you guys.

[Tommy Vitor]

Noticed, when he first mentioned Greenland, JD Vance and Speaker Johnson kind of started chuckling. And then by the end they're like, oh, they're excited. Or threaten them again.

[Jon Favreau]

Yeah, it's real. He really. He's.

[Tommy Vitor]

One way or the other.

[Jon Lovett]

So that was foreign policy. And then he did a bunch of. He called out people in the guest box. He does that. There's a couple stunts. What else stood out to you guys in the speech? And then there was like an. There was like five endings that were like literally copy pasted from other Trump speeches. It's about like crossing new frontiers and going to the moon and all that bullshit.

[Jon Favreau]

We should talk about the stunts a little bit. Some of the stunts. Right. So we had. There was one moment that was actually like kind of sweet where there's this boy that had had some kind of cancer and has like, wanted to be a police officer. And clearly they didn't know how long he was gonna live, so he became honorary police officer. And then he made him an honorary member of the Secret Service. And he had a really sweet look on his face. And I found that moving. And then some more cynical people ripped me to fucking pieces. But then it became. And actually RFK Jr. Is gonna look into the chemical causes of various illnesses. And by the way, we're gonna go.

[Jon Lovett]

After cancer and Then he was like, the brain cancer might have been from. He like, insinuated that it came from chemicals, which. Which Maha's gotta fix. And then we gotta get to autism. It was a really weird transition.

[Jon Favreau]

And then you remember that he's currently gutting the National Institutes of Health. That's where the transgender mice research was done. But also some cancer research that you might have been familiar with. And he's going after Medicaid and he's going after. And by the way, he launched an insurrection against the police at the Capitol in which this event was taking place. So, yes, it is a cynical thing, but the moment did work on me.

[Dan Pfeiffer]

He did admit one guy to West Point, too.

[Jon Lovett]

Yep.

[Jon Favreau]

That was good, too. That was good, too.

[Tommy Vitor]

Wanna rank the stunts?

[Jon Lovett]

I can't remember specifics, but I remember him doing this in his previous State of the Union during his first terms. They weren't just calling out people in the box, in the first lady's box. It was like. Like announcing something for them. Some kind of award.

[Jon Favreau]

He gets.

[Jon Lovett]

Not just the rush, Lambert.

[Dan Pfeiffer]

He gets very Oprah here, right?

[Jon Lovett]

Yes, it is.

[Tommy Vitor]

We sign an executive order.

[Jon Lovett]

Yeah. J Mart called it his Ed McMahon section of the speech.

[Dan Pfeiffer]

Really dated cultural reference, even for us.

[Tommy Vitor]

Yeah.

[Jon Favreau]

And then there was like the slightly. There was not slightly. Then there was like the darker version of it.

[Jon Lovett]

Right.

[Jon Favreau]

Which is like kind of going through people that have been grievously harmed by whether it's immigrants or a trans athlete. And then like naming a national preserve after the victim of a terrible murder and like to draw attention to, you know, anti immigrant sentiment and all the rest. So, like, that was. That was pretty ugly, but, like the most. I mean, because a lot of the speech was like sort of a mix of.

[Dan Pfeiffer]

Yes.

[Jon Favreau]

His sort of normal. Normal speeches as president and his stump speech, his sort of grievance stump speech. Like the kind of the parts that did stand out, other than like Greenland, was, were these stunts.

[Jon Lovett]

Only time Medicaid was mentioned the entire night was Al Green.

[Tommy Vitor]

Nice.

[Jon Lovett]

Donald Trump never mentioned Medicaid or Medicare, which I thought was kind of interesting. Like, he usually. He'd do the. I'm gonna protect it and I'm not gonna cut it in this budget. But he didn't even mention it at all.

[Dan Pfeiffer]

I mean, I guess it is noteworthy that if he does not pass a tax cut bill, taxes will go up on nearly every American. And that's a very challenging thing to do. Even budget.

[Jon Lovett]

It's not a nice to have.

[Dan Pfeiffer]

It is a must do. It is an absolute must do. And I would also say embedded in that exact bill is the bill to lift the debt limit. So he has to in order. If he does not pass this bill, we're going to default and everyone's going to get a tax increase. And he has Congress before him. He has a massively divided Republican Party. They are divided on both the policy, the spending measures to pay for this, and the legislative process to accomplish it. He used none of this speech with all of them there to try to rally them to any sort of cause. He talked a little bit about the tax cut, but they have no plan to solve this problem. And he cannot be bothered to try to get into the minutiae of trying to pass a bill.

[Jon Lovett]

Well, but it makes sense when you realize that he is not trying to make a case that wins him any kind of public opinion. He's not trying to pressure these people in public, because what the White House does. What this White House does is just threaten them in private. And so he probably thinks, I'm gonna talk about my accomplishments and have a good time, and I'm gonna deal with getting the sausage made with my people on my own.

[Jon Favreau]

Right. I think. Right. I also. It's just like, it's sort of. It's an unsolvable problem. There's no, like, rhetorical fix for it. Like, the circles in the Venn diagram do not overlap. Like, Tom Cotton stood up at some Senate Republican caucus meeting today and is like, hey, guys, like, we're far apart from what the House wants to do. We're talking about all these tax cuts for the rich. We got to focus on the parts that are for the working class. Like, there's like a real.

[Jon Lovett]

There's a.

[Jon Favreau]

This, this. There's no solve right now for this. What's he going to say? Yes, he's not persuading people to anything.

[Jon Lovett]

And it's because Thune said before Tom Khan got up, the House is asking for a trillion dollars in cuts. We've never done that in a reconciliation bill. I could see 400. The most we've done is $400 billion in cuts. And I still think that they are going to try to. The easiest thing for them to do is not go deep on the cuts and say that the bullshit Doge cuts, puff them up and lie about how much money they saved. Do a huge tax cut because they can get everyone on board with that. Figure something out about the debt limit, which I don't know what it is, and maybe he's going to fucking mint the coin or get rid of the Debt limit or say it doesn't matter and then just pass something that just, you know, adds to the deficit a couple trillion dollars, gives rich people a tax cut and then cuts where they can. That feels like the way that they'd get out of this. Or the whole thing falls apart.

[Dan Pfeiffer]

Yes. You would typically use that moment to at least express urgency to be able to get your shit together in that moment. And you're right. Like, maybe there is no solution here that does not involve a large swath of the Republicans voting for something they swore they would never vote for one way or the other.

[Jon Lovett]

Right.

[Dan Pfeiffer]

Unpaid for, paid for, cut Medicaid, don't cut Medicaid.

[Jon Favreau]

Or they can just fucking lie and just put some, you know, do some gimmick in there about, yes, the Doge cuts, but say, like, we're going to do this amount of cuts in the coming years. Right. Like, they can do some trickery with math. Well, they could also sunset some of the tax cuts to keep the costs a certain way down. Right. Push it to push a decision on tax cuts. Like, you know, do cuts over 10 years, do the tax cuts over three. Like, there's, like, there's games they still have room to play with, but even.

[Dan Pfeiffer]

When they get to that, there's still a massive delta between the money going out and the money coming in.

[Jon Lovett]

Yeah. Yeah, Right. And they can't. They can do all their games, but that's. Someone's gonna report that.

[Dan Pfeiffer]

Yeah, math is math.

[Jon Lovett]

Any other things that stand out to you guys? From the speech, I thought it was.

[Tommy Vitor]

Really weird when he had Cash Patel, his new FBI director, stand up and get a standing ovation. It just felt like the Praetorian Guard was all in the room and we were supposed to see them. It just bothered me a lot.

[Jon Lovett]

Yeah. He also called out Pam Bondi a few times.

[Tommy Vitor]

Yep.

[Jon Lovett]

She's gonna get the. She's gonna get the dead people collecting Social Security that don't exist.

[Tommy Vitor]

Right. She's gonna arrest a spreadsheet, I guess, with some names on it of dead people.

[Jon Favreau]

Filing error.

[Jon Lovett]

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[Tommy Vitor]

Yeah, people are using it in the morning, at night, before workouts, after workouts to kind of do a little ab testing.

[Jon Lovett]

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[Tommy Vitor]

That'd be nice. I'd like that.

[Jon Lovett]

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[Tommy Vitor]

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[Jon Favreau]

Oh, yeah, the Democrats.

[Jon Lovett]

Lisa Slotkin, new senator from Michigan, she gave the Democratic response. And then there were other Democratic responses. We already talked about Al Green leaving. There was also a bunch of Democrats that held signs up that said false. They were dressed in different ways. And then a bunch of people, just a couple people left the speech, just left early.

[Dan Pfeiffer]

Some of them came back.

[Jon Lovett]

But yeah, I was gonna say, like, I think Maxwell Frost and someone else left early. And then later Bernie left and then a couple other people left. Like, it was sort of a. There was no, like, specific words that triggered them leaving. I think if I were them, I would have left just because I was very bored and it was very long and I was tired. Leaving early. We're in west coast time and we're tired.

[Tommy Vitor]

Like, yeah, leaving early is like walking out of a movie just to show you hate it.

[Jon Favreau]

Yeah, I walked out of a pretty bad production of Rent once, but it wasn't a protest. I just was. It wasn't a good production. I was ready to go home.

[Tommy Vitor]

Got it.

[Jon Lovett]

I think Alyssa Slotkin did a good job. I think, like, those speeches are the hardest ones to give of any speech. I don't even know why people still do State of the Union response. Like they are. They are remembered if you fuck up, and if you do well, they're not remembered. I think it was short. She delivered it well and she hit the message that I'm sure is going to poll well. Like, I bet it probably did. The speech did well with whatever focus groups of voters were watching it. And then there's this debate that's happening online right now about, like, should. Should the Democrats have gone at all? Should they not have gone at all? Which we sort of start talking about.

[Tommy Vitor]

On the Slotkin thing. If I were to offer her advice, I would say ditch the cliches. We don't need to say things are as American as apple pie. I would say if you can do the setting over again, have some people there, give it some energy, not just sort of in a random room. I agree. She delivered it really well. It was tight. It had a message. It was coherent. It was just like a little bit. It felt like it was from a pre Trump era. And I think in the post Trump era, like, we all need to think about ways to really get people's attention and make a speech memorable in a way that will go viral on TikTok and Instagram and be seen by more people than whoever's still watching msnbc.

[Dan Pfeiffer]

It's an interesting thing because it is a format optimized for the free television time.

[Tommy Vitor]

Right.

[Jon Favreau]

Because you are.

[Dan Pfeiffer]

The networks carry it. They all carry it. And so more people will see Alyssa Slotkin's speech than any speech given by a Democrat this year by a factor of 10, 15, 20 more maybe.

[Jon Favreau]

In full on television.

[Dan Pfeiffer]

In full on television. Right. But if you were trying to modern communicate, you would not give a 10 minute two camera response. You would 10 minute podcast interview or whatever. Or like a conversation.

[Jon Favreau]

Yeah, I mean there's. Yeah, I think there's sort of three things. One, if you're gonna go all the way to Michigan to deliver it, like, why are you standing in front of a standard American flag set that could have been a closed room anywhere? So I sort of didn't understand the setting. I thought the speech was solid. And it's not even a criticism of her or the speech. It's like, yes, there's the question of, well, this is. It's a television format, not a social media format. But then there's just this part of it. And I don't have an answer, but it's like we just watched a carnival barker lie and kind of squeal for 90 minutes, vilifying all kinds of people willfully making things up about Social Security, kind of attacking president, bragging about his electoral record, just sort of like just showing like utter contempt for the country. And then we do kind of what is the kind of the adult in the room standard? Here's the response, the message that tests.

[Tommy Vitor]

Well, the proper kind of Reagan references.

[Jon Favreau]

Sort of like this is designed to meet, to appeal to a broad range of people. We do normal politics and I don't know what the alternative to that is that works, but there is just something dissonant about it. There's something wrong about it. Like Donald Trump does what Donald Trump does and then we get up there and we do what we would do if Mitt Romney had won or if Marco Rubio had won or whatever.

[Jon Lovett]

And I think the challenge is half the country thinks that we are in normal politics. The guy's got a approval rating of at worst, depending on the poll, you look at 45% best, 51, 50%. So that's like a whole bunch of People who, if she had gotten up there, or any Democrat had gotten up there and said something like, this is a moment of urgency, and can you believe that? Or just that guy was crazy, or he was a carnival barker, all the stuff that we've been saying with a lot of people, it would land like, I don't know.

[Dan Pfeiffer]

But you know what? Here's the thing I'd say about that.

[Jon Lovett]

But I know that's what I'm saying, so I think there could be room for that. But then the question is, what is the goal of a response? This gets to the heart of the entire Democratic response. The people on the floor, Al Green, everything else. What is the goal of what we are trying to do in responding to Donald Trump's speech, and who are we trying to reach and who are we trying to convince?

[Dan Pfeiffer]

So there's a big dilemma here, which is, without fail, the best testing messages, the ones that show up as most persuasive, feel incredibly small ball compared to what's happening here. And not that cutting Medicaid is small ball, because that is a devastating thing for so many people, but it just feels like we're on the brink of authoritarianism in this country, and it feels like we're just using the same message we use against mitt Romney in 2012. Doesn't seem like the right feel here, but the polling is crystal clear. The one piece of advice that I would give to Democrats, and I've been wrestling with this myself for the last couple weeks here, is there is no election tomorrow, the next day. There are elections in November, but they are state elections. We do not have to respond to how people think about Donald Trump right now. We have to make how people think about Donald Trump be different by November of 2026.

[Jon Favreau]

Right.

[Dan Pfeiffer]

And that, I think, is a. I think that implores us to step away from the quote, unquote, best testing message right now and do a little bit more. What I think Chris Murphy is doing, which is to be a little more sort of just sort of authentically ranting about the dangers that are happening. And like, this is the fundamental difference between Democrats and Republicans is Democrats find out where voters are and then we try to meet them there, and Republicans try to get the voters to where they want them to be. And I think we have to just think a little bigger here, play a bigger game than we have been playing.

[Jon Lovett]

I think then I feel like I'm going crazy having this debate over and over again because we, like, keep going on both sides of it. Like, Kamala Harris loses The election. And we're all like, there's too much democracy, too much scary. This, that, the other thing, authoritarianism. People don't care about that. Should have talked more about costs, inflation, stuff like that. And then, okay, great. So now all the Democrats are like, we got to talk about the price of eggs, we got to drive a message about inflation, we got to talk about cost. And then Donald Trump does what he does over the last month, and it's like, we can't fucking talk about that. We have to talk. And I'm there. I'm like, we have to talk about. I would respond to it. Like, Chris Murphy has responded to it.

[Jon Favreau]

But I think this is where, this is how you square the difference, though. Kamala Harris has been a very difficult position, cuz she only had 100 days. Like, she couldn't. Like, a third of the country completely woke up to the threat of Trump. A third likes it. A third was more concerned about their daily experience, what was happening in their lives, and. And waking him up to the threat of democracy just wasn't gonna happen. We didn't have the credibility. She didn't have the credibility, right? So you have to camp. So that's where the mistake there is, right? But now, like, let's try to wake some more people up, right? Like, no, yes, we should talk about the price of eggs. But, like, we have to. I think we should. Like, like, yes. I think that we can't just assume that this is static. Like, Donald Trump is an authoritarian threat. Not enough people care about that. Not enough people care when he sides against Ukraine, when he pulls all these stunts, when he talks about invading Greenland. Right? Like, like too many people are kind of inured to it or asleep to it or not paying attention. And that's part of why we're in this mess.

[Dan Pfeiffer]

I think the one way that I think also helps square the circle is to start talking about the corruption. Like, I'm not saying we should use the word kleptocracy to describe this, because that is a ridiculous term to use, but that is the story, right? Like, we have a bunch of oligarchs running this country. We have the world's richest man rooting through things. And the value of corruption as a message is, one, it's true. Two, it allows us, if we could get our heads out of our asses to become a reform party again. Because we're not trying to defend the status quo, we're trying to reform it in a way that actually helps people instead of just burning the fucking thing down. And that at least is there's a pointless Oslotkin sort of moved around, which is, is it crazy change that is chaotic and hurts people or is it real change that can actually help people?

[Jon Lovett]

Yeah, and I thought that was strong and I thought that was. And like, it's funny because as I listened to that speech, I thought the strong part of the speech was the end when she talked about democracy. And then there's like the little part of my head that's like probably not the most popular part of the speech, but I was like, that's what resonates. I feel like that resonates and it was true, you know?

[Jon Favreau]

Yeah. But I do think part of that too is it's we're so far from an election. The Democrats getting up there and saying here's exactly what I'll do at help on the economy just rings a little hollow right now.

[Jon Lovett]

I know what you're saying.

[Jon Favreau]

So we gotta get closer to the election where you can have like an agenda like, you know, you back up a corruption message with we're gonna make white collar crime the priority of the Justice Department again. Like, we're gonna go after these tax sheets, we're gonna go after the CR fraudsters. Like you need, you need like that kind of energy and a kind of list of things that you can do.

[Tommy Vitor]

Imagine a version of her speech that is entirely focused on Elon Musk in Doge Cuts and going through all the mistakes and fuck ups in great detail. Like he did. Like she did a little bit of this. She did the things that we've all been hitting, the nuclear weapons, people who are fired, the Social Security, health administration. But imagine you tick all of that. It's like Doge is this unbelievable threat. It's the only thing we should care about. Here are my focus.

[Dan Pfeiffer]

It's a really interesting idea.

[Tommy Vitor]

Different.

[Dan Pfeiffer]

That's actually a really smart way to think about it. Not a Courtney, which is use that free 10 minutes of national television time and attention. You get to try to win one battle, not try to win the entire war, which is an impossible task given to any person in any party.

[Jon Lovett]

Yeah. Although the thing I saw a lot of media outlets and God bless them, this is their job. They're supposed to give us the facts. There's a lot of fact checking after the speech. And I was like, I can't do the fact checking. I don't think fact checking him is. I mean, it's helpful to point out that he's bullshit, but like, I don't know where it's Getting us.

[Dan Pfeiffer]

I think there are parts of it. Like the Social Security thing is very important to point out, right? Because you're just gonna have conversations with people. Like that's the sort of thing that people are gonna be like. You're like, elon Musk is a fucking nut job. Look at all the stuff. He's like, well, yeah, but I heard that they were paying a million 150 year olds Social Security. Like having the facts to that is a helpful pushback.

[Jon Favreau]

It's also, by the way, at this point, I agree, these stories specifically, I don't know what they get us, but then we just don't really know or have a good way of measuring. Like, okay, some creator somewhere is gonna take that and make a TikTok or make a video that kind of walks through the ways of his lies. One of them will take off. It will get in front of a lot of people. And so I like, well, this is.

[Jon Lovett]

And this is where I was at the beginning where you're talking about Al Green. And I was like a little flippant being like, I don't think it matters either way. I guess we're having this debate over like what's the most effective message? What's the most effective Democrat? I guess I don't blame any of them for trying, right? Like if you wanted to hold a sign, if you wanted to walk out, if you wanted to stay, if you wanna give Alyssa Slotkins type speech, if you wanna do like whatever, like you said, the election is not till 2026. Everyone should try. Some stuff's going to take off, some stuff isn't going to take off as long as people are like, you know, going out there throwing spaghetti at the world right now.

[Tommy Vitor]

Yeah. You know, you guys see this CNN Instant Snap poll? Is it, let's say 44% very positive reviews of Trump speech? 44% very positive, 25% somewhat positive, 31% negative.

[Jon Lovett]

So it's actually not that for a State of the Union, that doesn't matter.

[Jon Favreau]

He has traditionally had positive reviews of Estates of the Union that aren't as positive.

[Dan Pfeiffer]

There's a little more numbers.

[Jon Favreau]

Y. No, I'm saying they're all positive.

[Tommy Vitor]

But his or her 66% say his policies will move the US in the right direction, 34% the wrong direction. That's a little better for him. 80% say Congressman Al Green's interruption was inappropriate.

[Jon Lovett]

Yeah, that's shocker.

[Dan Pfeiffer]

I mean, these are always worth noting polls of people who actually watch the speech, which almost always skews to the Party of the person giving the speech.

[Jon Favreau]

Yeah. This also, by the way, goes.

[Jon Lovett]

But this is what I was saying on the live stream about the protests walking out, because, like, you know what? People thought Joe Wilson was an asshole when he said to Barack Obama that he lied. People thought Marjorie Taylor Greene and Lauren Boebert were assholes when they interrupted Joe Biden. Like, when you interrupt someone, most people think you're asshole.

[Jon Favreau]

But this is part of the thing when you're, when you're like, if the message. Donald Trump did not bring up Medicaid. Al Green brought up Medicaid. Right. Sometimes we're not no election for two years. Sometimes the shit that's gonna drive an important message maybe doesn't make you look good for a beat.

[Dan Pfeiffer]

Right.

[Jon Favreau]

Like, it doesn't always have to be like, we're down to Al Greens. Al Green's in a safe district. You know, it's like, good for him if he got people to talk about the Medicaid cuts. I think that's a good thing.

[Dan Pfeiffer]

I will just, I will have no patience for people complaining about the etiquette of it.

[Jon Favreau]

No.

[Jon Lovett]

Well, I also have very little patience for people like Al Green's outburst didn't help Democrats. As if, like, a Democrat who's not Al Green is going to somehow be hurt by what Al Green. Like, I, I, I have no.

[Dan Pfeiffer]

Do you think it'll be more or less impactful than Donna Brazil's book right before the Virginia governance election?

[Jon Lovett]

That's a, that is a tough.

[Tommy Vitor]

That was so cool.

[Jon Lovett]

I don't even remember what it was about. I don't even know the full story.

[Dan Pfeiffer]

But do you remember?

[Jon Lovett]

But I. Yes, of course I remember.

[Jon Favreau]

God, I do remember that. But what was it?

[Dan Pfeiffer]

We'll talk off mic.

[Jon Lovett]

All right, before we go, we did the livestream before, and we all bet on how long the speech was gonna be. And so we had Price is Right rules. And let's see. Tommy guessed 62 minutes. The next list was me. I guessed 81 minutes. Dan guessed 85 minutes. But the winner is. Love it. I won with 86 minutes.

[Jon Favreau]

Wow.

[Jon Lovett]

I know we thought originally it was Dan, but Adrian corrected me. And we have a trophy.

[Jon Favreau]

Oh, my God. Look at that.

[Jon Lovett]

Look at that. Wow.

[Dan Pfeiffer]

Love it.

[Jon Favreau]

Congrats.

[Jon Lovett]

Love it. Figured out.

[Jon Favreau]

Wow. I've never done well in any kind of game show before, famously, so this has been great.

[Jon Lovett]

Congratulations.

[Jon Favreau]

This is what it would have been like to make it through one fucking vote.

[Jon Lovett]

Who were the big winners of Donald Trump's speech tonight?

[Tommy Vitor]

According to the polls, Donald Trump, but.

[Jon Lovett]

According to us, John Lemon.

[Jon Favreau]

Yeah, thanks a lot. No, that feels really good. It feels really good.

[Jon Lovett]

All right, everyone, we'll be back with an episode. Dan and I will be back with an episode. What day is it? Friday. Friday we'll have an episode. We'll talk to you then. If you want to listen to Pod Save America ad free or get access to our subscriber discord and exclusive podcasts, consider joining our Friends of the pod [e-mail] friends or subscribe on Apple Podcasts directly from the Pod Save America feed. Also, be sure to follow Pod Save America on TikTok, Instagram, Twitter, and YouTube for full episodes, bonus content, and more. And before you hit that next button, you can help boost this episode by leaving us a review and by sharing it with friends and family. Pod Save America is a crooked media production. Our producers are David Toledo and Saul Rubin. Our associate producer is Farah Safari. Reed Churlin is our executive editor and Adrian Hill is our executive producer. The show is mixed and edited by Andrew Chadwick. Jordan Kanter is our sound engineer, with audio support from Kyle Seglin and Charlotte Langley. Madeline Herringer is our head of news and programming. Matt de Groat is our head of production. Naomi Singel is our executive assistant. Thanks to our digital team, Elijah Cohn, Haley Jones, Phoebe Bradford, Joseph Dutra, Ben Hefcoat, Mia Kelman, Molly Lobel, Kiril Pelaviev, and David Toles. Our production staff is proudly unionized with the Writers Guild of America East. Building a business may feel like a big jump, but Ondeck small business loans can help keep you afloat. With lines of credit up to $100,000 and term loans up to $250,000, OnDeck lets you choose the loan that's right for your business. As a top rated online small business lender, OnDeck's team of loan advisors can help you find the right business loan to fit your needs. Visit ondeck.com for more information. Depending on certain loan attributes, your business loan may be issued by Ondeck or Celtibank. Ondeck does not lend in North Dakota. All loans and amounts subject to lender approval.

[Tommy Vitor]

For over 130 years, McCormick has helped you make Mom's lasagna to keep her secret recipe alive. Take over taco night, no matter how.

[Dan Pfeiffer]

Chaotic your day is.

[Tommy Vitor]

Conquer the bake sale, even if you get to it last minute, and craft the perfect Sunday brunch when it's not even Sunday. Because with McCormick by your side, it's gonna be great.