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Trump Has James Comey Indicted
01:50:25
Just days after the President demanded the Justice Department prosecute his political enemies and ousted a career prosecutor who refused to comply, Trump's handpicked replacement indicts former FBI Director James Comey. Jon and Dan react to Trump's weaponization of the Justice Department and then discuss Jimmy Kimmel's powerful pro-free speech monologue, a government shutdown that now seems inevitable, and why Vice President JD Vance called Jon a "dipshit" on Twitter earlier this week. Then, Georgia Senator Jon Ossoff stops by the studio to talk to Tommy about his office's investigations into ICE and the defining feature of the Trump administration: corruption.
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- [00:00]
Jon Favreau
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Dan Pfeiffer
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- [01:52]
Jon Favreau
Welcome to Pod Save America. I'm Jon Favreau.
- [01:55]
Dan Pfeiffer
I'm Dan Pfeiffer.
- [01:55]
Jon Favreau
On today's show, why the vice president called me a dipshit, how the White House is using a shooting at an ice facility in Dallas as another pretext to crackdown on the left. We'll also talk about the return of Jimmy Kimmel, the government shutdown that's almost here. Maga's war against escalators. What gets Stephen Miller's wife going in the morning, and Tommy's interview with Georgia Senator Jon Ossoff. Look, those are her words, not mine.
- [02:22]
Dan Pfeiffer
I know, I know.
- [02:23]
Jon Favreau
But first, the people demanding we stop calling them authoritarian are now ordering law Enforcement to charge the president's political enemies with crimes they didn't commit. The new loyalist Trump, installed as U.S. attorney for the Eastern District of Virginia, is reportedly planning to seek an indictment against former FBI Director James Comey, even though the Trump appointee she replaced and the rest of the prosecutors in the office have told her that the investigation that they did didn't uncover the sufficient evidence of any crimes. What's stopping you, though? You know, just because. Just because you can't find any crimes doesn't mean you can't try to bring an indictment. Comey is far from the only target here. The fabricated case against New York Attorney General Tish James appears to be coming back from the dead as well. Ed Martin, formerly the lawyer for the violent January 6 rioters, is reportedly advancing that investigation, which had also stalled due to a lack of evidence. Trump is pressuring the Department of Justice to indict ex CIA Director John Brennan, though prosecutors are also struggling to find a crime that he committed. And on Thursday morning, the New York Times reported that an official at DOJ sent a memo to federal prosecutors around the country asking someone, anyone, to please start investigating George Soros and his Open Society Foundation. The story says that the memo, quote, goes as far as to list possible charges prosecutors could file, rather ranging from arson to material support of terrorism. The memo suggests department leaders are following orders from the President that specific people or groups be subject to criminal investigation. Just putting it all out there right in the memo. Here's Trump's response when asked about the potential Comey indictment on Thursday. I'm not making that determine.
- [04:06]
Dan Pfeiffer
I think I'd be allowed to get involved if it wants, but I don't.
- [04:09]
Jon Favreau
Really choose to do so. I can only say that Comey's a bad person. He's a sick person.
- [04:15]
Dan Pfeiffer
I think he's a sick guy, actually. He did terrible things at the FBI.
- [04:20]
Jon Favreau
And, But I don't know.
- [04:22]
Dan Pfeiffer
I have no idea what's going to happen.
- [04:24]
Jon Favreau
He's got no idea, Dan. He has no idea what's going to happen. He's following these stories just like we are.
- [04:30]
Dan Pfeiffer
Yeah, he seems like a guy who really values the independence of the Department of Justice and the idea that the President should not get involved in investigations. He could get involved. He could.
- [04:41]
Jon Favreau
He could get involved.
- [04:41]
Dan Pfeiffer
Yeah. Don't dare suggest he might be impotent in any way. So he could get involved, but he's not. Like, we are laughing here, but this is a five alarm fire for democracy and the rule of law. Like here you have the President who has Removed prosecutors who were unwilling to charge crimes to people for which there was insufficient evidence. Replace them with a political crony who has no prosecutorial experience and is now going to try to get indictment on Jim Comey, going to charge crimes against Letitia James. Looking at John Brennan, looking at, looking at George Soros foundation, we know just from reading Trump's truths, which apparently operate as rule of law these days because they provide instructions to people across the government that Adam Schiff could be next. Who knows who comes after that doesn't stop. There could be Jimmy Kimmel, could be people who work in the January 6th Commission. It could be all kinds of people who, anyone who ever crossed Trump before or now who does not have blanket immunity from Joe Biden and is at risk here. And it is quite dangerous. And we are like, we have been through this cycle for so long now with Trump of outrage to normalcy, which is we're all outrageous is happening. And then it's the new normal, right? That was the way it was with Doge. That's the way it was with the free speech stuff. And so here we are. The new normal is, and everyone's gonna treat it just as normal, that the president, United States gets to pick who law enforcement goes after, regardless of the evidence. You pick the opponent first, the crime second, and the evidence follows, which is the exact opposite of the way it's supposed to go.
- [06:09]
Jon Favreau
And as we've said before, there's a very good chance that if any of these indictments get to court, you know, a judge throws them out before a trial even commences. There's even a chance, as we've seen from some of these Jeanine Pirro grand juries in D.C. that the grand jury doesn't even indict them, even if the prosecutors bring the charges. That does not mean that, like the rule of law has won the day and everything is safe because Jim Comey, John Brennan, all these people, they've had to lawyer up. They've probably had to talk to the FBI, there have been investigations. And what if it starts targeting, you know, he's going to start going after people who can't afford lawyers. He's going to have to start going after people who, you know, maybe you've committed some minor, you know, offense 30 years ago that they're gonna find. I mean, this is just really, really dangerous stuff. Because once the rule of law starts coming apart, once you start just completely politicizing, not just having a lackey as attorney general like Pam Bondi, but now you're reaching into these offices, these U.S. attorney offices, and you're only putting in prosecutors who, who even if they don't find a crime and they don't find evidence, they're gonna go try to bring an indictment and criminally charge someone, potentially go arrest someone. Bring them. It's crazy. It's fucking crazy.
- [07:37]
Dan Pfeiffer
Sometimes you just have to step back. If this was happening in any other country, we would call it for what it is, which is the end of democracy and it's happening here and it's happening right now.
- [07:44]
Jon Favreau
On the source thing, the memo that the Times gut accused the open societies foundations of, quote, pouring over $80 million into groups tied to terrorism or extremist violence. Have you looked into this memo and what they're planning here for Soros, how to loop him into this?
- [08:00]
Dan Pfeiffer
I have. So we should stipulate that there is, despite plenty of accusations from many on the far right, including the President of the United States, there is no evidence that George Soros foundation has funded any groups that have done violent extremism. They're also, at least in the cases of the most recent incidents of violence, there's no evidence that groups are involved at all. Right. As of what we know right now, these are the actions of individuals acting on their own. So this is a completely made up thing to begin with. They're trying to hang this on the thinnest reed possible, which is there is a group that is a Palestinian rights and aid organization that the government of Israel, to my knowledge, not the government of the United States, but the government of Israel, has said is a front for terrorism. Now, I'm going to be pretty skeptical of how Bibi Netanyahu's government characterizes a group that provides aid to the Palestinian people at this exact moment in time. But that is what they're going for. That is the hook here. The arson stuff is a reference to this completely made up idea that lacks any evidence at all that the sabotage of Teslas was funded by Soros. That was a big talking point on the right. I think that's where the arson comes from. But there is no evidence here. They are instructing prosecutors to go investigate, but they're starting with the crime, not with the evidence, which is, as I said before, exactly the opposite of how it's supposed to go.
- [09:16]
Jon Favreau
Yeah, basically what they're doing here is first they're trying to find protests that have happened in the United States anytime in the last decade where at some point some, you know, maniacs infiltrated the protest and caused vandalism or violence or something like that or like Antifa showed up and they were violent or they were destructive and some black box or any of these, any of these fucking anarchists, right? And then they're going to look and say, okay, originally was that protest organized by some kind of a group? And then can we tie the group that organized the protest to the Antifa anarchists who joined the protest later and caused some damage and then who funded the groups that set up the protest? And could we tie the funding somehow to Soros or, or to the Ford foundation or to any of these other left leaning foundations? And then do those foundations have foreign ties? Because since you. There's no legal way to label NGOs, nonprofits in this country as domestic terrorists, that's not a legal thing. We've talked about that. You can only label foreign organizations terrorist organizations. So is there any foreign funding involved for many of these groups which of course the Soros foundation funds sort of nonprofits all over the world that you can then tie to them and then do it that way.
- [10:46]
Dan Pfeiffer
I'm not even sure the funding works in the reverse. Right? You need the funding to come from abroad, right? If you send your American money abroad, that is America funding things abroad. It is not Internet foreign interest funding. Like it's all bullshit, it's all ridiculous. And it's. Once again, the President of the United States has a fever dream that is inspired by a right wing outrage machine. And then the government then goes, tries to make that real.
- [11:16]
Jon Favreau
He just signed the we're going to talk about the TikTok deal. And he was in the Oval and got asked about this and asked about Soros particularly. And he said, I mean, I don't know, you know, like every time I, he's involved in so many things. Every time I read the paper there's Soros name. So I assume that's, you know, like just, just reading his name connected to progressive liberal organizations, that's enough for. He's given away the game. It's not like he was saying, I've read, I've read the name in connection with violence. It's, I've read the name in connection with Democratic Party politics.
- [11:52]
Dan Pfeiffer
And we should just, I mean like let's be clear about what Trump in the right wants to do here is that George Soros foundation is one of the most impactful and important funders of not just political causes, but democracy, equity, civil society in this country and around the world. And they want to create some pretext to begin investigation to go rooting through all of their stuff so that they can exact revenge and gum up the works through law enforcement, through investigations, through the IRS or whatever else it is to make it hard for them to do good in the world. That's what this is about.
- [12:35]
Jon Favreau
So it feels like all we can do about this is call attention to it, raise awareness. Like, I don't know what tools Democrats in Congress, what power Democrats in Congress have to fight this? You got any ideas?
- [12:51]
Dan Pfeiffer
Yeah, we don't have the power to do it right now, but we can use this as an argument to get the power to do something about it. And I think Democrats need to. We should not run away from this. We should not pretend like it's not happening. We should not vomit up a bunch of poll tested, focus grouped pablum about tariffs and affordability and Medicaid cuts. We should weave this into a clear and compelling narrative about a President United States, who is abusing his power to help his friends and seek vengeance on his enemies instead of trying to help American families. And we know from previous midterms that there is always a segment of voters who want there to be a check on power. Right? That is, that helped us in 2018. It is, it helped the Republicans in 2010, 1994, et cetera. To get those votes from those voters who want to check on power, you need to do two things. You need to show that there is an abuse of power happening and that it's hurting people's lives and affecting people in a negative way. That's one and two is you have to make yourself a worthy vessel so that people think you can actually check that power. And so the way you begin this is by making this an issue, talking about it. And I think actually using some leverages like we think we're going to have the House next year and we are going to root through every single email that went, every single piece of correspondence in the Eastern District of Virginia to go over exactly how these decisions were made. We're to going can hold people accountable if they're doing things politically. If you were, if you were taking, if you were a district, if you're a U.S. attorney somewhere or a prosecutor somewhere and you want to do the bidding of Trump against your best wishes, we are going to hold hearings on it, we are going to investigate, we are going to subpoena this stuff, we are going to find out what's going on and we're going to expose it to American people. Like people. I think the people inside, the people who are executing the dictates from the dictator should feel the risk of Reputational damage when Democrats have the ability to start exposing this stuff in 2027.
- [14:40]
Jon Favreau
I also think it's important to point out that Donald Trump and his government are not just going after his political enemies, because people will be like, well, that's James Comey. I'm not James Comey. I'm not John Brennan. I'm not any of these people. But he's not just going after his political enemies. He's working to criminalize dissent in this country. People who oppose him, people who criticize him, people who speak out against him, people, people who try to fund an opposition that can defeat his party electorally. That's what he's going after. He's trying to criminalize dissent in this country. All right, Dan. Of course, after we just finished this episode, we've been informed that Jim Comey was indicted just moments ago. And so I will just read you the ABC News story which has just come across my screen, which is former FBI Director James Comey has been indicted on charges of making a false statement and obstruction related to his testimony before the Senate judiciary committee in 2020, just days after President Donald Trump issued a public demand for his Justice Department to act now to bring prosecutions against Comey and other political foes. There you have it, Dan. Pam Bondi, no one is above the law. Today's indictment reflects this Department of Justice's commitment to holding those who abuse positions of power accountable for misleading the American people. We will follow the facts in this case. Doesn't seem like it.
- [16:10]
Dan Pfeiffer
No, because the facts said that there was no evidence to actually prosecute them because they do not indict people for the purpose of indicting them. You indict people if you think you can actually find them guilty in a court of law, which the career prosecutors and the Trump appointed former prosecutor, former U.S. attorney, did not believe could be done here. I mean, this is, this is a giant, very concerning, very alarming situation because it is Jim Comey today, It's going to be Letitia James tomorrow. It's going to go on and on and on. And we are now a country where the Department of Justice is a political arm of the President of the United States. Their top responsibility is not necessarily to keep us safe. Right. It is not to follow the evidence. It is to exact vengeance on the people the President of the United States wants vengeance exacted upon.
- [16:58]
Jon Favreau
And again, we already know that the prosecutors who looked at this, including the one that Trump selected himself, said that there just wasn't enough evidence even to bring an indictment. And so that's all you really need to know. And you know, we were just saying earlier that there's maybe a possibility that the grand jury doesn't indict, but I'd be hard pressed to see a judge take this seriously. But we will find out.
- [17:33]
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- [19:37]
Jon Favreau
All right, speaking of the White House going after people who criticize them, I should say that the Vice President did call me a dipshit. On Wednesday, that is.
- [19:46]
Dan Pfeiffer
Can we talk about this for a second?
- [19:47]
Jon Favreau
Yeah, let's talk about this.
- [19:48]
Dan Pfeiffer
So let's give you just a little wind into my life is that on Wednesdays at lunchtime, I play pickup basketball. Do it every Wednesday, so I'd only look at my phone for like an hour on Wednesdays. Boy, did I miss a very eventful hour in your life and that of American democracy, where I found out through many texts from many people that the vice President called you a dipshit. And so that seems like a big deal. 1. Just the fact that you were a Twitter. You were having a Twitter fight with the Vice president, and it's not your first. You've had several. But that's just notable. Like, that's interesting. That's notable. But the fact that he called you a dipshit is wild in a way, shape, or form. It's like imagine if Joe Biden called a. Right.
- [20:26]
Jon Favreau
I mean, I'm sure Joe Biden has called us dipshits.
- [20:28]
Dan Pfeiffer
Well, I was gonna say, as vice president in the year 2010, don't have a.
- [20:34]
Jon Favreau
Don't have a good record with vice presidents. Right. About.
- [20:36]
Dan Pfeiffer
Yeah, no, no, you are not popular with vice presidents. I also would say, like, I would say in the early days of this podcast, I think we were. The four of us were all in the same. We were equally good tweeters. But you, I would say, have ascended to really be a top notch tweeter. Like you are. You're good at Twitter. You are. You're trolling Ted Cruz. You're fighting with Elon Musk, you're fighting with J.D. vance. And you know what that tells me that Malcolm Gladwell was right about the 10,000 hours. You put your 10,000 hours in and you. It has worked for you. I have to say.
- [21:15]
Jon Favreau
It was a very weird day because.
- [21:17]
Dan Pfeiffer
Oh, yeah, no shit.
- [21:19]
Jon Favreau
Well, but I didn't feel like it was a weird thing.
- [21:22]
Dan Pfeiffer
It's like, that's the weird thing about it. That's what's meta about this.
- [21:25]
Jon Favreau
But it's like the reaction of everyone else made it feel like a bigger deal than it did to me originally, which maybe I have been. I don't know, maybe I'm numb to all this now, but I See the story break about this horrific shooting in Dallas outside an ICE facility. And I'm getting ready for work, and I look at the phone, and I see that immediately. Kristi Noem. And then JD Vance are like, this is an attack on law enforcement. J.D. vance says it's an obsessive. The obsessive attacks on law enforcement must stop. And Christy Ome. And I was like, oh, Jesus. You know, and I'm like, reading the news, reading the news. And then I see NBC report that no ICE agents were hurt and that detainees were actually killed. And then I see a tweet that had a proposed community note attached to JD Vance's post saying, actually there were three detainees who were shot. And at least at the time it said two were killed. They later revised that to one was killed, tragically. And I was like. I just stopped, and I'm like, this fucking guy. And this administration. Like, this just happened. The shooting. We do not know. They don't have a suspect identified yet. They don't have any evidence. This was before the bullets were found. That was, you know, anti ICE was written on one of the bullets before anything. And I'm like, how many times has fucking JD Vance done this because he needs to make a political point, and he goes out and he just starts saying shit. And so I tweeted that the vice President is not a reliable source of information. This is the fifth or sixth time he. He has jumped out to have a political take that is contradicted by law enforcement, at the very least, did not have the context that the community note cited. So I did that. And then, you know, then I didn't even. I didn't even think about it. I got dressed, I went to work. I was about to record something, and I get a text from one of our friends that just said, oh, boy. Have a good day, John. And I was like, oh, what? And then I saw. And then I saw that that happened, that the dipshit thing happened, which, first of all, dipshit's a great word. I love dipshit. I use the words. I.
- [23:37]
Dan Pfeiffer
You do use it a lot. I've heard.
- [23:38]
Jon Favreau
I know. That's why I use it quite a bit.
- [23:40]
Dan Pfeiffer
So, yeah, you've used it to describe JD Vance.
- [23:42]
Jon Favreau
Hoisted by my own petard.
- [23:43]
Dan Pfeiffer
Yeah, it happens.
- [23:44]
Jon Favreau
And then, of course, you know, as a lot of the evidence came out, it clearly seems like from all the evidence that it was that the person was targeting ice. You know, the FBI said today, another lone wolf, the person said that there's no evidence that they're tied to any other groups or anything else. Person seems disturbed. Ken Klippenstein had some. Talked to some friends who said, oh, he's more libertarian, though. He didn't really care about politics, but clearly he wanted to hurt ICE agents, so that's horrible. So it's not like, was J.D. vance right or not right. It's just like, you don't. How many times we have to learn that when a shooting happens like this, you wait to let the facts come out before you draw political conclusions. And. And that goes for everyone. It fucking especially goes for the Vice President of the United States who now multiple times has done this shit and is like, did it with Kilmar Abrego Garcia when he fought with me on Twitter there and said, oh, you obviously haven't read the court document that said He's a convicted MS.13 gang member. It's like, well, that's not what the court document said. And he's not a convicted ms.13 gang member. And he's done this, like, time and time again, so fuck him.
- [24:51]
Dan Pfeiffer
I'm sensei's dishonest, John.
- [24:55]
Jon Favreau
I mean, just, I was. I was surprised to see that the New York Times ran a whole piece on it that had like, me versus J.D. vance. And then in a story that also talked about how he got in a fight with Gavin Newsom. I was like, maybe you want to put Gavin Newsom at the top.
- [25:10]
Dan Pfeiffer
No, this is interesting because what it is, this is where the traditional strictures of putatively objective journalism don't really work in the Trumpian moment, which is the reason why it's newsworthy. Is the Vice President of the United States called. Called a random podcaster. Yeah, A right. Like that.
- [25:30]
Jon Favreau
That's a weird thing for a vice president to do.
- [25:32]
Dan Pfeiffer
Yes. And so that is like, that is notable, but be. But because the Times, I guess they think that's cheap and they can't swear. They just have to write this whole story and then just write that he called your profanity. But. But they don't say what the profanity is. There's no hint to it. There's no like.
- [25:49]
Jon Favreau
Yeah.
- [25:49]
Dan Pfeiffer
And so like, unless you were like, I imagine we are like, very nerdy readers of journalism. You understand. Exactly. By the way, the story. Otherwise it seems fucking bizarre to the average person because they had to bury the lead because the actual news nugget was something that they thought was beneath them.
- [26:07]
Jon Favreau
Anyway, the most important point here is that the White House, it's not this. Not this. Believe me, it's not this is that the White House is once again exploiting a horrific act of political violence to silence dissent and crush their opposition. Because right after J.D. vance finished his Twitter fight with me, he went on to speak at a event in North Carolina where he blamed the shooting on the left, on Democrats, on people who've criticized ICE agents for wearing masks, and on people who've called his administration authoritarian. He singled out Gavin Newsom. Trump posted something similar and he also wrote, quote, the continuing violence from radical left terrorists in the aftermath of Charlie Kirk's assassination must be stopped. I will be signing an executive order this week to dismantle these domestic terrorism networks. I believe he signed that this afternoon when he signed the TikTok deal. Wonderful. And here's what Trump said about this in the Oval Office on Thursday. The radical left is causing this problem.
- [27:08]
Dan Pfeiffer
Not the right, the radical left.
- [27:10]
Jon Favreau
And it's going to get worse. And also ultimately it's going to go back on them. I mean, bad things happen when they play these games.
- [27:16]
Dan Pfeiffer
And I'll give you a little clue.
- [27:19]
Jon Favreau
The right is a lot tougher than the left and they better not get them energized because it won't be good for the left. I'll give you a little clue. The right is a lot tougher than the left. What do you think he means by that, Dan?
- [27:31]
Dan Pfeiffer
I think it's not something we should pay a lot of attention to. It's just the President, United States threatening violence from allied militia groups.
- [27:40]
Jon Favreau
I mean, gee, wouldn't it be a shame if you got these crazy right wingers? I mean, I don't know them, right? Nothing to do with me, but they're pretty tough. They're pretty tough. You don't want to see what they can do.
- [27:53]
Dan Pfeiffer
You mean people like the proud boys or the Oath Keepers? People who, upon the President's order after the election, then marched on the Capitol, many carrying weapons as they stormed the Capitol of the United States to try to stop the certification election.
- [28:05]
Jon Favreau
Those people again, I just want to. This is all we have. There was a lone wolf shooter that assassinated Charlie Kirk and now we have another lone wolf shooter who shot at a nice facility that is two people. There are not riots all over the country. There are not things on fire, vandalism, antifa, roaming around. Like the whole fucking left wing violence thing, the way that Trump and Vance and the White House are talking about it is fucking fiction. That is not to say that there is not like incidents of violence with people who are radicalized with some, at least some left wing Views, but individual cases, now that we've seen a couple in the last couple weeks. But he sounds like it's this fucking epidemic. It's crazy. And it's going to make people think that.
- [28:54]
Dan Pfeiffer
Which is how every authoritarian in world history has seized power by creating a mostly fake internal or external threat to get people to willingly hand over their freedoms in exchange for security from this made up threat. Yeah, exactly.
- [29:10]
Jon Favreau
How do you think Democrats and activists and organizers should talk about all this? Because basically they're trying to play this game now where if you say authoritarian, right, if you call them authoritarian or fascist, then that's inciting violence. If you now it's, if you complain about ICE wearing masks or you call, you know, ICE as a secret police or the fact that they're fucking throwing, throwing people into vans and keeping them without due process and, you know, detaining people in horrible conditions, that all this is inciting violence against ice. And so now criticism itself and rhetoric is seen as inciting violence. And so they're just going to keep pushing the envelope here until any kind of comment or criticism of the regime is seen as being left wing inciting of violence. How do Democrats handle that?
- [30:07]
Dan Pfeiffer
We can debate the efficacy of using the words Nazi or Gestapo or those things to describe various people. But the bigger and more important point here is that Democrats should not shy away from calling it like it is, like this is authoritarian. When they do fascist things like, oh, I don't know, have the chairman of the FCC threatened companies in order to get them to take the comedian, the president, like, off the air when they do things like that? We have to call it out there. I have seen no evidence that shows that the American people believe that the things that Democrats or Trump critics have said have contributed to this. Like they are trying to create this impression. We do not have to buy into it. I think every politician should think about their words and we should try not to dehumanize people. We should obviously shy as far away as we possibly can from anything that promotes violence or anything like that. But there aren't. Democrats aren't doing that. That's not a thing that's happening. But Trump is seizing power. He's abusing power. He's doing the things that authoritarians do. There are fascistic tendencies in what his government is doing, and we should call that out. And doing so is not something that is out of bounds in American politics. What's out of bounds are the things that Trump is doing, not us talking about the things he's doing. And so I just do not be cowed by this. Right. Do not let the, the, either the bad faith folks on the right or the civility police in the middle try to keep Democrats from actually using words to describe what's happening here.
- [31:34]
Jon Favreau
Yeah, I think merely describing what the Trump administration is doing, that's enough.
- [31:40]
Dan Pfeiffer
You have to put too much mustard on the hot dog here.
- [31:42]
Jon Favreau
Exactly. This is exactly right. And I think that, is that that both prevents some of their bullshit criticism from landing with people who are not paying close attention to this. And it also has the virtue of just, you know, factual descriptions are more persuasive than using all kinds of adjectives and names and trying to figure out whether something is fascist or not fascist or whatever. You know, like, you just don't need it. Right. It's not like you shouldn't say it. It's just like you have to think to yourself, is it useful? Is it useful to persuade the vast majority of people in this country who are not political junkies that something serious is amiss? Or could you just describe what is happening? Right. So I think that is a really important point to keep in mind. I also think it's not just like, you know, we don't support violence, but, but this is scary. We somehow have to make, and I've been trying to press this point, but we have to make nonviolent resistance part of our brand. That as we oppose this administration, that is acting authoritarian. And we can point out all the ways they're acting authoritarian. The most effective response to an authoritarian regime is nonviolent resistance. And that has been the case throughout history, and it is certainly the case now. And so I think those things can work. Like, we can be as tough as we want in describing the abuses of power in this administration. And we should be, we should also lead with the fact, and not be defensive about it, that the way that we're going to do that is through nonviolent resistance. And I think sometimes we get caught in the, like, you know, I don't want to say this, but you shouldn't be cowed. You should also be proud that our strategy is nonviolent resistance, because that's not a soft strategy. It's not a weak strategy. It's actually very strong and effective. And, and that is what history shows.
- [33:31]
Dan Pfeiffer
And then you actually have to have nonviolent resistance. Right, Right. Well, I mean, and I say that like we're coming up on another, no Kings Day like protest coming up in a few weeks here. We saw Trevinoans turn on there, but it has to be something more than just posting, right? It has to be actual. And this is a part where I think Democrats at all levels should think outside the box a little bit about ways in which you can demonstrate opposition to Trump. That is not through the traditional typical means of doing it, where we're just going to complain about, we're going to press conference about it. It can be sit ins, it can be protests, it could be a day, general strike. But they're like, we, we have to widen the aperture of the tools available to us because we continue as a party, and I struggle with this myself, we struggle as a party to confront an absolutely extraordinary threat with the tools of ordinary politics. And, and that's a mistake.
- [34:25]
Jon Favreau
And you know, sometimes nonviolent resistance is. It's responded to with violence. Right? You've seen people calmly film ICE agents, you know, taking people away from their families, throwing them into vans, and then the ICE agents rough them up. And that's something that, like, if you're engaged in nonviolent resistance, you have to be prepared for that. And that's what they, that's what civil rights activists did. Sometimes it entails civil disobedience. I think about our old friend Adi Barkan and everyone in that healthcare fight, protecting the aca. And when they did sit ins in congressional offices, in the halls of Congress, oftentimes they were arrested. And so nonviolent resistance doesn't mean that you don't ever get arrested, right? Like that's part of protest. The key is when violence is visited upon you or police haul you away, you respond to that with nonviolence. And you don't respond to it with violence or with destruction or anything like that, because you don't want to maintain the higher ground just to make yourself feel good. You want to maintain the higher ground so that you can persuade most of the people who are watching and who are paying attention that the nonviolent resistance is where they want to join, is the team they want to join, and not the state violence and the state repression that they're seeing on their TV screens and on their phone screens.
- [36:03]
Tommy Vietor
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- [37:56]
Jon Favreau
Okay, so right after Vance spoke at that event in North Carolina, he took a question from a reporter about government censorship and Jimmy Kimmel. Here's his answer. I'm pretty sure that Jimmy Kimmel was.
- [38:06]
Senator Jon Ossoff
Back on the air last night.
- [38:07]
Jon Favreau
And to the extent that he's not back on the air, it's because he's not funny and has terrible ratings. The FCC commissioner making a joke on social media. What is the government action that the Trump administration has engaged in to kick Jimmy Kimmel or anybody else off the air? Zero. What government pressure have we brought to bear to tell people that they're not allowed to speak their mind? Zero. Yeah, I'm a dipshit. Yeah, like it's so it is so his style of dishonesty, which is like, I'm gonna try to say something that is in the most narrow, narrow sense, technically true. And, but it is completely dishonest. First of all, it was not a joke on social media. Brendan Carr said, we can do this the easy way, we can do this the hard way. And, and if we do it the hard way, that means the FCC has more work to do. That was directed towards abc, that was directed towards the affiliates that were at least in one case requiring a merger approval from the FCC that then decided after Brendan Carr said that, to pull Jimmy Kimmel off the air. So yes. Did Brandon Carr go to nexstar and say, I am ordering you to not air Jimmy Kimmel's show? No, he technically did not say that. But he certainly threatened.
- [39:25]
Dan Pfeiffer
Is just a, like his entire Persona is so fucking grating because it is smug, smarmy. It is so smug. It is so arrogant. It is just this idea, like he just exudes the idea that he is smarter than everyone else and he has like figured out the way to sell this like right wing fascistic bullshit that he theoretically did not believe in. And I would say, speaking of people use language, he did compare Trump to Hitler at one point in his life.
- [39:55]
Jon Favreau
Sure did.
- [39:56]
Dan Pfeiffer
But you're exactly right. He just mows down. He builds up straw man arguments and then mows them down every time. And because he doesn't and just, it's infuriating. And we're going to have to deal with this for a number of years because he, like I do look forward to some Democrat, I don't know who that Democrat is right now, kicking the shit out of him on the debate stage in 2028.
- [40:17]
Jon Favreau
He's so great. Also, we just talked about the actions that Carr took and things that he said. J.D. vance gave that answer a day after, maybe two days after. Was it yesterday? It was yesterday.
- [40:32]
Dan Pfeiffer
Who knows?
- [40:32]
Jon Favreau
He gave it a day after his boss, Donald Trump, whose posts I know that J.D. vance reads because he posts them on Twitter all the time. Donald Trump said, oh, Jimmy Kimmel's back on the air. They told us the show was canceled. I'm going to have to take legal action against him because he's giving an in kind contribution to the Democratic Party. And I think that's some fucking campaign finance violation, whatever the fuck he said. Bullshit. And Donald Trump in a post threatened to take action, legal action, against Jimmy Kimmel. And then J.D. vance gets up there and he says, what action have we taken? Zero. Oh no. Your boss Just fucking threatened it to the whole country in front of the whole country the night 24 hours before. Yeah, so that's bullshit. Let's talk about Kimmel's return on Tuesday night, which averaged over 6 million viewers on traditional television despite being blocked by Sinclair and nexstar affiliates that reach roughly a quarter of all households. That's the show's highest rated planned episode in at least a decade. And that's before you add the so far 20 million YouTube views it's racked up so far. Jimmy's monologue, I thought was funny, emotional, and most importantly, pulled no punches whatsoever. Here's some of it.
- [41:53]
Dan Pfeiffer
Now, the President of the United States made it very clear he wants to see me and the hundreds of people who work here fired from our jobs. Our leader celebrates Americans losing their livelihoods because he can't take a joke. They want to pick and choose what the news is. I know that's not as interesting as muzzling a comedian, but it's so important to have a free press, and it is nuts that we aren't paying more attention to this show is not important. What is important is that we get to live in a country that allows us to have a show like this.
- [42:30]
Jon Favreau
What'd you think?
- [42:31]
Dan Pfeiffer
He nailed it. I mean, Jimmy's such a smart and thoughtful guy, and he just. And he spoke in this moment, honestly, authentically, from the heart. He pulled no punches. He made it clear that he was not back on the air because he agreed to soft pedal his criticism of Trump or Brendan Carr or anyone else. And honestly, I'm not one of those people who's saying, we got to put her. The future of our society or future of democracy depends on a comedian of some kind. But we do need more people in our politics who can speak that authentically in that. Honestly.
- [43:03]
Jon Favreau
I had that same thought. Emily and I watched it the night that he did it.
- [43:08]
Dan Pfeiffer
Not live, obviously. You obviously watched it when someone posted it from the East Coast. There's not a fucking chance you're staying up till 11:30.
- [43:14]
Jon Favreau
Fuck no. Fuck, no. As you know, our good friend Jen Psaki was like, are you guys gonna be up? Do you want to come on? Does someone want to come on the show and react? And we're like, Poor Jen at 9. She's up at midnight. And we're like, 9pm we're in bed.
- [43:26]
Dan Pfeiffer
Yeah, sorry, we're.
- [43:28]
Jon Favreau
But anyway, I was in bed and we watched it on YouTube right after it aired. And, like, I was moved in a way that surprised me and that I hadn't realized how much I needed to hear something like that. And I've been thinking about the last couple days, and I think it's because it's like what you just said. Like, since January, we just haven't had many moments or leaders where someone stands up and speaks to a very big audience in defense of our rights, our values, our ideals as a country in a way that is like, not partisan, intended for a politically minded, but maybe non political audience as well. Most of the country. Right. That's who Jimmy's speaking to. And he didn't do it in a partisan way. He didn't make it all about Trump. There weren't a lot of cheap shots. It was just a sort of calm, forceful, powerful defense of free speech and American values. And I was like, God, I wish that Democratic politicians would just be like, all right, take myself out of Washington, out of like, all the language that I hear all the time from all my colleagues and strategists and staffers and everyone else. And it's like, what if I just had to speak to people who didn't necessarily pay close attention to politics, but also not speak to them like they're fucking idiots? And that's what Jimmy Kimmel did, you know? And again, I'm not saying like Jimmy Kimmel 2028, though, who knows? But I am saying that we just, our leaders need to take a page out of Jimmy's playbook there in that monologue, particularly not the jokes, not the jokes. Don't try the jokes if you're not funny. But particularly the serious parts of that monologue, because I think it was pitch perfect. I think from a messaging perspective, I would say he nailed it. I'm sure that would have tested well if he did it. And he doesn't have posters to test it there.
- [45:33]
Dan Pfeiffer
We know. Not yet.
- [45:34]
Jon Favreau
Right. But he didn't write it thinking like, okay, I need to have this line and this test well and this well. But I bet it did because he was speaking to an audience that he was trying to persuade that he knew what might not always be with him.
- [45:46]
Dan Pfeiffer
Well, he did something that is just very absent in American politics. He spoke to everyone.
- [45:52]
Jon Favreau
Yes, right.
- [45:53]
Dan Pfeiffer
He was speaking to any person who could possibly see his show, whether they voted for Trump, they voted for Harris, most likely don't vote at all, and was trying to reach all of them, persuade all of them. And that's just not how politics has worked in the last decade where everyone is trying to speak to their group and their group alone. We have sliced and diced the electorate in so many ways. We are, we have message tested us into the ground where we know the exact words to reach this group. And he gave a broad based message to a broad audience and we could use more of that in politics.
- [46:23]
Jon Favreau
I kind of think that this whole attempt to silence him backfired spectacularly on Carr and Trump because, well, first of all, just the ratings alone. Second of all, it gave Jimmy the chance to deliver that monologue. I believe his audience has. It's not as big as the night of the monologue, but it has remained elevated last night. And by the time you hear this, there'll be another night that he'll have done it as well. And I also think it's gotten people's attention in a way that probably a lot of other things haven't. I don't know. What do you think?
- [47:01]
Dan Pfeiffer
Yeah, I wrote about this in my newsletter last week. I think if the goal was to silence Jimmy Kimmel, it is a massive, epic failure because more people have thought about Jimmy Kimmel, listen to Jimmy Kimmel, watch Jimmy Kimmel in the last 48 hours than have done in a very long time. And that's because Trump and Brendan Carr clumsily tried to silence one person and he may turn it into a national cause. And this is one of those things that broke through. Right. Like I always track which stories are getting the most attention on social media. The Charlie Kirk story is one of the biggest stories that we've had, probably the biggest story since Trump has been elected. But Kimmel, Kimmel was adjacent to that story. It's right behind that story. It broke through to people and it caused all these problems for Trump because it led to inter party conflicts, which never happens with Trump. So that gets more attention. You have Ted Cruz criticizing the Trump administration. You never get that. And then it led to people like Joe Rogan, Andrew Schultz, others with large platforms who are an important gateway to an important audience of young men for Trump who have just been shitting on him for the last few days for it. And that hurts him in the moment and it hurts the ability for Republicans and J.D. vance in the future to have that relationship with those media personalities, those influencers going forward. So this was in terms of political impact both on Jimmy Kimmel and for the Republican Party and Trump, I think just a complete and total disaster.
- [48:27]
Jon Favreau
Do you think that the administration will be smarter and more surgical in how they go after free speech from here on out? Because obviously the threat is not gone, clearly. But you know, nexstar still isn't airing Jimmy Kimmel, as of this recording, nor is Sinclair. But nexstar is the one that's got a merger they gotta get approved. So I kind of wonder where this goes from here.
- [48:49]
Dan Pfeiffer
Well, I think the threat to free speech is as great today as it has been since the Red Scare, right?
- [48:56]
Jon Favreau
It is.
- [48:57]
Dan Pfeiffer
We are in a very serious moment because I think they're gonna be smarter. Brendan Carr is not going to go on right wing podcasts and do his best goodfellas impersonation anymore. But they have a playbook now. So now they want Jimmy Kimmel not on large parts of the country. Next it's the View, maybe it's CBS News or Meet the Press after that, or they think the WNBA is too woke. And so all of a sudden you now have these either local television affiliates owned by right wing billionaires like Sinclair, or people who have business before the Trump administration who are going to take their orders, who are going to start censoring the program that comes on the air to appeal to what the state wants. And that is very, very, very dangerous. And that is where we are. And there is a playbook now. And that was impossible to imagine 96 hours ago. And here we are right now.
- [49:52]
Jon Favreau
And I would say that in Kimmel, at one point in the monologue, you know, he talks about sort of other threats to the press. And he talked about Pete Hegseth's rule that like he was going to pull press credentials from any reporter who published unauthorized information. Not necessarily just classified information, just unauthorized information, which is what reporters do. And so Kimmel, and I like that he did that because I think we've talked about this before, it is important to stand up for anyone they come after, because solidarity is important here. There's strength in numbers. And I do think another benefit of what Kimmel did is he was unafraid. And I think that courage, you know, I think that kind of thing gives other people courage to stand up. And I think that's the lesson that everyone should take from Kimmel, which is they're going to keep going after people and we got to call it out. We got to stand with those people. However you feel about them and whatever you've thought about them before, because they come for one of us, they come for all of us.
- [50:52]
Dan Pfeiffer
And the thing that's important about Kimmel, Sam, is Kimmel's been talking about retiring for a long time now. He's been doing this show for a long time. He could have easily just walked off the air and said, fuck this, Disney betrayed me. Bob Iger Betrayed me. I'm not going to do it, walk away, not deal with this. He's made plenty of money, I imagine, in his life. He could still come back and host award shows or do whatever he want, or he could go to YouTube. He could do lots of things. But he's one of the few people who has power and money who decided to fight back.
- [51:21]
Jon Favreau
Right.
- [51:21]
Dan Pfeiffer
And that's important for these reporters because it's easy. These reporters and individual reporters certainly don't have that. They are fighting for their jobs in a decaying media industry. A lot of these media outlets are barely hanging on anyway. And so this has been. The problem is that the most powerful elite people have been the least willing to fight Trump over the last nine months, and so embodied by Disney's decision to take Kimmel off the air to begin with. Kudos to them for putting him back. But we need more people who have money and power to be willing to stand up to Trump, because when they do that, it makes it a little bit easier for the other people like them and the other people much further down the ladder to do so, because some of the people further down the ladder don't have the ability to do it in the same way.
- [52:04]
Jon Favreau
Yeah. All right, let's talk about a government shutdown that's no longer just looming, but something that Washington is barreling towards.
- [52:10]
Dan Pfeiffer
We're barreling now.
- [52:11]
Jon Favreau
We're barreling.
- [52:12]
Dan Pfeiffer
What are we gonna be doing on Monday?
- [52:15]
Jon Favreau
On the brink. Are we on the brink? Yeah, yeah, something like that. Here's where things stand. Hakeem Jeffries and Chuck Schumer demanded a meeting with Trump. Trump agreed, and he backed out with a post where he said, quote, after reviewing the unserious and ridiculous demands being made by the minority radical left Democrats in return for their votes to keep our thriving country open, have decided that no meeting with their congressional leaders could possibly be productive. Democrats are now demanding that any funding bill include an extension of Obamacare subsidies and a reversal of Trump's Medicaid cuts. While the White House is making new threats, they sent a memo ordering federal agencies to begin preparing for mass firings in the event of a shutdown. Not furloughs, which is temporarily layoffs while the government's closed, but firings. They're also lying about what Democrats are asking for. Quote JD Vance's Twitter feed, again, quote, democrats are about to shut down the government because they demand we fund health care for illegal aliens. Not true. Not true at all. Not true. How are you feeling about the shutdown and how Democrats are Approaching it.
- [53:21]
Dan Pfeiffer
I said this on this podcast a couple weeks ago, but I believe strongly that Democrats cannot simply rubber stamp funding for Trump's authoritarian government. Like, you absolutely cannot do it. If you believe what you're saying about the threat that Trump poses, the abuse of power, the politically motivated prosecutions, the threat to free speech, you can't just pretend like it's regular order and just like, well, vote for the continuing resolution and keep the government open. Like, you cannot do that. And so I agree with the approach they're taking. I do want to try to approach my analysis of this from. Not from, like, it's very easy to have the hot take that they're fucking this up or they're not doing it the right way or they suck. And I think it's important. And this is not how I would have done it. If it had been me, just Dan Pfeiffer in charge, I would have made the whole thing about affordability. I would have made it about the Obamacare premiums and the tariffs. And the tariffs are very useful because they are an abuse of power. Right? This is Trump being a king. And it goes right to what Trump's weakest spot politically is. Cost of living, inflation, high prices. And you could focus it around that. But I do recognize I've seen this from the other side. I worked in the White House during a shutdown. I loomed and barreled a lot over my time in the White House and even sometimes in Congress, I loomed and barreled. And the one thing that is true is that the most important thing the leadership can do, because it only works if they do this, is to have unity in their caucus. And so you have to have a message, a strategy and a set of demands that in the House goes from Jared Goldin to aoc, and the Senate goes from institutionalists like, I don't know, Patty Murray or whoever, to Bernie Sanders or Alyssa Slacken and Bernie Sanders, however you want to do your spectrum of people. And so that does sometimes lead you to lowest common denominator asks, which is what's the one thing that unites Democrats, right? It's health care, and it's the Medicaid cuts and it's the Obamacare premiums. And I think they're picking the Obamacare premiums because it's the one thing they have the best chance of getting. Because there was a bunch of Republicans very uncomfortable about this. They think they. They don't want to just do a permanent extension. They maybe don't do it up. But they. There were discussions before this about some sort of agreement before these expire at the end of the year because Republicans know they're on the ballot next year. Donald Trump is not. And they don't want to have jacked up everyone's premiums. So that's how they got here. And so it's just like it's hard. It is easy. The thing that I think is the value add that we bring to this analysis is that we've actually worked in these spots before. We've sat through these things. And so just recognizing that there's a lot of factors and a lot of equities that the leadership has to work through that may not be as obvious to people on the surface. Right. Like, why aren't we making about mass ICE agents? Well, you can't. You're not going to get members to do that. Do I wish we could? Yeah, sure. But that's just not the reality that we live in. And they do have to operate in that reality.
- [56:26]
Jon Favreau
It's a tough reality. Here's the so I hosted one of our these debates that we've been trying out here. You know, Tommy did one on Gaza and Lovett did one on housing. Love it. Did a couple, I think. And so I did one on government shutdown with Matt Glassman who thinks that it is a very bad idea for Democrats to do a shutdown. He's in the New York Times and on his substack about that. And then Fat Shakir, our friend who is Bernie Sanders campaign manager and had worked with Harry Reid and Nancy Pelosi at one time and Nancy Pelosi. So he's been through a couple shutdowns and he took the pro shutdown side of the case. So you can all check that out on the POD Save America breaking news feed if you want to listen to the pod. Or you can go right on our YouTube channel and it's right there. Pod Save America YouTube channel. Go subscribe. It was a great debate. And I will say I left thinking both Faz and Matt made some very good points. Like it is not an easy one. And I say that only not because, like should we stick it to the Republicans, of course, but because of what you just mentioned. It's like, okay, why are Democrats shutting down the government now? Well, first of all, Schumer and Jeffries are saying we're not shutting down the government. Donald Trump shutting down the government by not having the meeting. So you're not really shutting down the government. But then it's also like, well, Donald Trump is engaged in an unprecedented abuse of power and he's acting like a king. Okay, so then what are you asking for? Healthcare subsidies. And so it's like before we even begin, the messaging is complicated and I don't know, I don't know how long you can sort of hold on once the government shuts down under these with, with the different complications the Democrats are facing in terms of messaging, in terms of asks and in terms of just the power that they have.
- [58:15]
Dan Pfeiffer
And it's hard because the House is not. It's a free vote for the House. Right? Yeah. The. They all vote against. Republicans got it through in the Senate. You got to hold. You can't allow seven Democrats to bolt. You've already lost John Fetterman.
- [58:31]
Jon Favreau
Right.
- [58:31]
Dan Pfeiffer
So now you got to hold six. And it sounds so I listened to the debate. I also read Matt's substack. Here's my take on it is Matt makes a very compelling case. But I think and Faz made this point in your debate, which I think that compelling case is based on pre Trumpian old view of politics. And like, yeah, it's true. Like here's, here's. I guess this is the simplest way to put it is Democrats can either choose not to fight, which I think comes with a severe set of political consequences, severe and opportunity cost, or we could fight and very possibly lose. And I think fighting and possibly losing or even likely losing is better than simply not fighting at all. Like this. I've tried to make this point multiple times here in many forums with privately and publicly is that we are a long shot right now across the board. Democrat, our approval rating is shit. Trump has all the power. We are the American people do not like us. They do not like our brand and we can't play it safe. Playing it safe is a guaranteed loss. We are a huge underdog, right? Maybe we are not an underdog for the immediate midterms, but over the medium term in American politics, we got a lot of work to do. And so you have to take on high variance strategies. You have to say, yes, we could lose this. Like if you don't fight, you know the amount of pain you'll take. And I think it's significant. But you know what it is. If you fight, you could win, but the loss could be even worse. And I think you have to be open to strategies that have higher ceilings but lower floors. And to me it feels like the right thing to do. Like if you think things are really this bad and this is your one moment, you have to fight and your approval ratings could go to shit. We could absolutely lose this. Do I think we're trotting out our best messengers? Absolutely not. Do I think we have a great message? No. Are we at a massive media disadvantage? Yes. But it is a moment. It is a moment to possibly, maybe grab the nation's attention, grab people by the lapels, and tell them what is happening in this country. And if you can do that, that's worth a shot. And it comes with great risk. It comes with great risk politically. It comes with great risk substantively, because Trump may fire these people and federal workers are getting fucked everywhere by this administration. And will a court probably reinstate them at some point, three weeks down the line? Probably, maybe, but. So there is risk here. And I understand that. And I understand that it's not a obvious, clear case, but I just think fighting and possibly losing is better than not fighting at all.
- [61:05]
Jon Favreau
Yeah, I come down on like, let's do it. But I really think making the message bigger and the fight bigger is gonna be key here. And by that, I don't mean throw everything in that Trump has done badly as part of the message, but I mean to your point about. And Faz makes this point as well, like, make it about something bigger, like affordability, cost. Right. And then like, tell a whole story about how since January, Trump has been getting as rich as fuck and making sure all of his friends and family and allies are getting rich as fuck while everyone else is getting screwed. And he is. He's doing the screwing. He's slapped a fucking tariff on all of us, on everything we purchase, and everything's prices are up and we're losing jobs, and now premiums are going to go up because he's not helping with the ACA stuff. And now people are going to lose their health care coverage and set up what the world would look like if Democrats were in charge, which I thought was a very compelling point from Faz, is that it's not just Trump is bad. But if we're going to draw attention to this and if we're going to take this risk, make sure that when people hear Democrats talking, they know what a Democratic run Washington would look like. And then it sets up the midterm fight.
- [62:20]
Dan Pfeiffer
And I think the important point you're making here is don't confuse the tactics with the message. Here are the things we're asking for is not the message. The message is what Donald Trump is doing wrong and what we would do differently. And then you have a set of things that you're gonna bring up in the meeting that might possibly be Points of agreement at one point to get the government open again. Those are two separate things. And don't confuse them.
- [62:40]
Jon Favreau
Yeah. All right, two things before we get to Tommy's conversation with Jon Ossoff. First up, escalator gate. As you may have heard, Trump's appearance at the UN General assembly this week led to an international incident that could mean the end of the United Nations. It all started when the President and First lady attempted a routine ascent of an escalator that inexplicably froze as they were about to step onto the bottom stair. This catastrophe forced the first couple to improvise, or in Trump's case, stand still for a few seconds, looking confused, before putting one foot in front of the other to climb the stairs to the top. Trump later complained about the escalator's temporary malfunction during his speech. And the un, after launching an internal investigation, said that the escalator likely froze because Trump's own videographer accidentally hit the stop button. Likely fucking story. UN we are not buying that. Unfortunately for you, MAGA media is on the case and they know exactly what you did.
- [63:43]
Dan Pfeiffer
Well, there better be accountability for those people. And I will personally say, see to it, Jesse.
- [63:48]
Jon Favreau
And you know, the President being frozen.
- [63:50]
Dan Pfeiffer
There in one place makes him vulnerable. And thankfully, the first lady and the President had their hands on the rails.
- [63:57]
Senator Jon Ossoff
Why are we paying for a building.
- [63:59]
Dan Pfeiffer
That'S just trying to injure the First Lady?
- [64:01]
Senator Jon Ossoff
What we need to do is either.
- [64:03]
Dan Pfeiffer
Leave the UN or we need to bomb it.
- [64:11]
Jon Favreau
There's a few more great tweets. Mike Flynn. It's time to turn the current UN Into a hotel. Representative Tim Burchett. Burchett. Burt.
- [64:19]
Dan Pfeiffer
Who cares? We're not even gonna try to care that we know his house name is house.
- [64:22]
Jon Favreau
Defund the U.N. wilt Chamberlain, who's, you know, he's one of his Article 3 project Right Wingers.
- [64:30]
Dan Pfeiffer
His name is Wilt Chamberlain.
- [64:31]
Jon Favreau
Will. No. Wilt.
- [64:33]
Dan Pfeiffer
I was like, wilt Chamberlain's tweeting about the escalator from the grave.
- [64:37]
Jon Favreau
Yeah, he's nuts. Believe me. Very different. Remarkably dangerous. Trump should demolish the UN Building and put fragments of the rubble on the Resolute desk, seize the property, turn it into a new Trump hotel. And then Trump himself has said that the Secret Service are investigating and has called this triple sabotage because of the teleprompter. And I guess there was a third thing that happened.
- [65:02]
Dan Pfeiffer
The audio. I think there's something about the audio.
- [65:04]
Jon Favreau
The audio. Triple sabotage.
- [65:06]
Dan Pfeiffer
I know this. Cause I watched the Caroline Levitt interview on Just Jesse Waters, where she cited Katie Pavlich of Town hall, who told her about the audio.
- [65:14]
Jon Favreau
There's so many, so many things wrong with this. Do you want to take a cut?
- [65:20]
Dan Pfeiffer
Yeah, I just have a lot of thoughts that are not really coherent. One, It's a flight of stairs. It's just one flight of stairs. And if one flight of stairs is such a threat to our elderly out of shape president, maybe we should have some more discussions about the gerontocracy. 1, 2. Caroline Levitt says on Jesse Waters that she will personally hold those responsible accountable. I don't know, like, press secretary is a cool job. Like, C.J. craig made it look cool. Like, you're very famous. You can end up. Many of them end up on TV afterwards, but you don't have the authority to hold anyone accountable.
- [65:59]
Jon Favreau
I mean, talk about petty dictatorship. It's like, oh, no, His Majesty had to stand still for a couple seconds. And in his fragile physical and mental state, we must not ever let him be inconvenienced for just a few seconds. Also, the d. It's so dangerous. He was just, he was like a sitting duck. He was just. This is what they're all saying. And I'm like, so he can't stand still in public anymore. He's gotta keep moving.
- [66:28]
Dan Pfeiffer
That's inside a fully secure look.
- [66:31]
Jon Favreau
Yeah, we're gonna put him in a fucking hermetically sealed bubble. Should he be in a fucking popemobile from now on?
- [66:36]
Dan Pfeiffer
Yeah, like, obviously he's had two assassination attempts against him, but there are probably few places safer on the planet than the United nations during the United Nations General assembly with almost every world leader on the planet there. So.
- [66:48]
Jon Favreau
But again, yeah, again, safety or not, like standing at the bottom of a stairwell is not more dangerous than not standing at the stairwell.
- [66:57]
Dan Pfeiffer
Yeah, I mean, it's not like you're moving so fast up the E escalator. I mean, it's just, it's like there's something like, you could really write a paper about the incentives of MAGA media in this moment where like, Donald Trump obviously was embarrassed and very upset to walk this flight of stairs. So he complained. So then everyone has to one up each other about what has to happen. So first it's like, are they sabotaging? We will hold the individual person accountable. And like seven minutes later, we are two.
- [67:26]
Jon Favreau
We're bombing the un, we're bombing the.
- [67:28]
Dan Pfeiffer
Unit, we're seizing the un. We're going to put the rubble on Donald Trump's desk. It's just like, like, I'M sure someone right now is tweeting about nuking the U.N. it's just. It.
- [67:39]
Jon Favreau
Well, it's also an every and everything is pretextual, right? Which is like none of them like the un. They've all hated the UN for a long time. So.
- [67:45]
Dan Pfeiffer
Because of the faulty escalators, that's always been the main critique.
- [67:50]
Jon Favreau
Like, if it. If it happened at a fucking wrestling match, you know, or ultimate fight, UFC match, you don't think anyone's going to be complaining about that? No one's going to be like, oh, Dana White, we're going to fucking bomb the ufc. You know, like, that's not happening.
- [68:04]
Dan Pfeiffer
I mean, look, you and I lived in dc. We took the Metro home sometimes early in our career and wait till you get to the bottom of the Dupont Circle Metro.
- [68:13]
Jon Favreau
Yeah, that's.
- [68:14]
Dan Pfeiffer
And that escalator was broken 90% of the time. And that is like a. It's a mile up.
- [68:18]
Jon Favreau
I would hold someone accountable for that for sure. For sure. I'd pull a Caroline Levitt. Also, we're never going to hear about this again because they need an excuse to be aggrieved every single day, every hour of every day. Right? They just need. And then now that they got the. The Dallas Ice thing, and then tomorrow it'll be something else and they can go back after Antifa and the Democrats, whatever else, the escalator thing will just fade into memory. That would. We just. They just needed something to get them through the rest of the day to feel like they are victims and aggrieved.
- [68:52]
Dan Pfeiffer
Wait till Jim Jordan opens the Sept. 23 commission report in Congress to investigate what happened here.
- [69:01]
Jon Favreau
Lastly, in a right wing media crossover episode for the ages, podcaster and White House spouse Katie Miller appeared on Jesse Waters Fox News show, and the result was pure magic.
- [69:15]
Dan Pfeiffer
You are married to Stephen Miller, so.
- [69:17]
Tommy Vietor
You are the envy of all women.
- [69:19]
Dan Pfeiffer
What is that like the sexual matador, right?
- [69:22]
Jon Favreau
What is it like being married to.
- [69:24]
Tommy Vietor
Such a sexual matador?
- [69:25]
Jon Favreau
He is an incredibly inspiring man who gets me going in the morning with his speeches, being like, let's start the day.
- [69:32]
Senator Jon Ossoff
I am going to defeat the left and we are going to win.
- [69:36]
Jon Favreau
So I want to know which part of the Miller's domestic life you relate to the most.
- [69:44]
Dan Pfeiffer
Well, John, Holly's going to kill me for saying this, but a lot of times I'll just pull up a recent message box and I'll read it to.
- [69:50]
Senator Jon Ossoff
Her.
- [69:53]
Dan Pfeiffer
So I get what's going on here.
- [70:01]
Jon Favreau
You know what Emily wants when she wakes up in the morning. On the weekday, she wants me to hand her. Her venti latte from Starbucks that you.
- [70:09]
Dan Pfeiffer
Have woken up hours earlier to bring to her. Yes, yes.
- [70:12]
Jon Favreau
I'm sorry. It's a London fog. It's a London fog. And sometimes I say, good morning. And she goes, could you bring the coffee up? And I say, sure. And she does not ask me to recite a speech or to talk about how I'm going to defeat the right that day. Like, she does ask me, she does plead with me not to get in Twitter fights with high ranking Trump officials.
- [70:36]
Dan Pfeiffer
I mean, my wife finds your fights with high ranking Twitter officials to be uncomfortable. Like, as if I could be collateral damage when they come out. Like, I could just be in the studio with you when they storm.
- [70:48]
Jon Favreau
But Katie Miller. Katie Miller, that kind of shit, that gets her going. That gets her going.
- [70:52]
Dan Pfeiffer
I mean, I don't want to spend a lot of time pressing this, but let's not even get into it, really. It's a lot. But their mornings are different than ours. Like, we're really just trying to get the kid. We're trying. Like, we're waking up, too.
- [71:04]
Jon Favreau
What do they. Do the kids have to listen to the speech, too? I hope not.
- [71:08]
Dan Pfeiffer
It depends on which it's. Yeah.
- [71:09]
Jon Favreau
Anyway. But whatever floats your boat, Miller.
- [71:11]
Dan Pfeiffer
Yeah, we don't kink shame here.
- [71:13]
Jon Favreau
We don't. We should say sexual matador, too. That. That was. That was an inside joke because Jesse Waters had previously called Stephen Miller a sexual matador as a joke to him. You've got to know all the Jesse Water sayings and inside jokes. And if you're an avid Fox viewer, like I am, like you.
- [71:36]
Dan Pfeiffer
Yeah. I did not know it, so it was out of context for me.
- [71:39]
Jon Favreau
Yeah. So that one did not get me as much as the. This is what gets me going in the morning. Anyway. I don't know. It's been a long week, Dan.
- [71:46]
Dan Pfeiffer
Yeah.
- [71:47]
Jon Favreau
All right. When we come back, you'll hear Tommy's conversation with Senator Jon Ossoff, who's pushing back on Trump's corruption and gearing up to defend his seat in the Senate. One quick thing before we get to that. We've talked a lot about freedom of speech in this episode and others, and the importance of independent media in a world where a lot of corporate media, a lot of the people who run corporate media are just bowing down to Trump or capitulating. And if you want to support independent media, may we suggest crooked media? Because, you know, you're listening to us now. We have some great content, and if you want ad free episodes and and you want all the great stuff that's behind the paywall, like Dan's Polar Coaster show and Terminally Online, which is very fun. All kinds of other great stuff. And again, ad free episodes of Pod Save America. Pod Save the World. Love it or leave it offline. Join us Become a subscriber at Crooked Media. You can head to qriket.com friends and subscribe on the platform that makes the most sense for you. So come join us. We're building something fun over here. Foreign.
- [72:55]
Dan Pfeiffer
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- [73:56]
Tommy Vietor
I'm very excited to welcome Senator Jon Ossoff from Georgia to LA to our studio here. It's great to see you.
- [74:02]
Senator Jon Ossoff
Great to be here. Thank you for having me.
- [74:03]
Tommy Vietor
Thank you. You know, slow news year, it's good to have you in studio. Okay, so let's just get into it. So, earlier this week, MSNBC reported that the Justice Department is planning to indict former FBI Director Jim Comey for allegedly lying to Congress. This announcement came a couple days after Trump fired the U.S. attorney for the Eastern District of Virginia and installed his own personal attorney, someone named Lindsey Halligan, who I believe ABC News reported was presented with a memo recommending she declined to bring charges. But it sounds like she's going to pursue them anyway. She has no prosecutorial experience, so kind of tells you everything you need to know. I think what's your reaction to these reports and what they tell us about rule of law in this country?
- [74:45]
Senator Jon Ossoff
Well, that the rule of law is hanging by a thread in the United States right now. We have public enemies lists, DOJ drawing up orders to US Attorneys to investigate political targets. Makes me think of. There's a. An expression, I think, attributed to, like, a Stalinist official in the ussr, which was something like, bring me the man and I'll find you the crime.
- [75:11]
Jon Favreau
Right.
- [75:11]
Tommy Vietor
Yeah.
- [75:12]
Senator Jon Ossoff
It is such a perversion of justice. And it's also just another piece of proof that the thing about Trump is that every accusation that he makes is actually like a deep confession of his true intent. And he is weaponizing the Department of Justice and the entire federal government as a political instrument. This effort to crush the opposition, destroy the pillars of authority that might oppose or criticize him, stifle dissent, make examples of his enemies and adversaries using the force of law is so deeply UN American, and I think one of the most significant threats to the basic fabric of our republic in well over a century.
- [76:08]
Tommy Vietor
In other legal news, Trump accused United nations employees of sabotaging his UN Visit because someone briefly turned off an escalator. His surrogates are suggesting this was a grave assault on the president, first lady, and Trump himself tweeted, the people that did it should be arrested, end quote. To the best of your knowledge, is it a crime to turn off an escalator?
- [76:28]
Senator Jon Ossoff
It's like, I'm sure that all the folks in Georgia who are, you know, losing access to labor and delivery services or maybe to an ICU because of these Medicaid cuts or whose groceries have gone up 8% in a year will be relieved that the president's investigating escalator failures in New York City.
- [76:47]
Tommy Vietor
Would you consider passing a law to make escalator sabotage a felony?
- [76:51]
Senator Jon Ossoff
I'll have to give that some consideration.
- [76:52]
Tommy Vietor
Okay, we can double back on this one. So we appear to be close to a government shutdown. On Thursday, Trump's Office of Management and Budget sent a memo to agencies telling them to identify programs and projects and activities that can be permanently eliminated in the event of a shutdown, as opposed to just a temporary furlough. In other words, they're sort of signaling that they think the shutdown could expedite the DOGE efforts that we've all talked about so much. Do you think that we're going to shut down the government, and do you think that's the right thing to do.
- [77:21]
Senator Jon Ossoff
As of our taping this? I think it's too soon. To tell, but it doesn't bode well that the president is refusing even to meet with opposition leaders in Congress. I do think this is a big mistake from OMB and the White House and. And Russ Vote. You know, the mass firings and the Doge effort were hugely destructive and hugely unpopular. I mean, there's a reason that they kicked Elon to the curb, at least publicly. You know, like in Georgia, a quarter of CDC employees have been pushed out or they've tried to push him out. The American public doesn't like mass firings. You know, and I know that it sparks joy in Trump's West Wing to fire hundreds of thousands of. Of public servants. But if. If what they plan to do is to refuse to talk, in refusing to talk, force a shutdown and then sort of rampage, the public's gonna turn pretty quickly against that. So I think it's seriously overplaying his hand for the budget director.
- [78:28]
Tommy Vietor
So, I mean, this shutdown talk kind of brings me to bigger anxiety. I hear from Democrats, which is they feel like Trump poses this existential threat to the fabric of our country, but that the current leaders, the Democratic Party, are not necessarily meeting the moment the criticism is. Like, they aren't using the leadership, isn't using the little power they have to block enough stuff that Trump is doing. They feel like leadership is terrible at communicating and that Trump is running circles around us in terms of messaging. What would you say to those Democrats who are anxious and who frankly, want to see younger senators, the next generation of. Of elected officials like yourself, in leadership roles?
- [79:08]
Senator Jon Ossoff
Yeah, I mean, first of all, I would say I get all that, and I completely understand the apprehension, the fear that people feel right now, the frustration. I also think, just to level with folks, there is no magic button that senators aren't pushing. They would have pushed it on day one. And we do have to wield the powers that we have as the minority in the opposition to limit the damage and try to contain this out of control executive. But as I look ahead to the midterm elections and think about the generational obligation that we have to win, right? Like, I think that we as citizens right now have an obligation to deliver a landslide victory in these midterms that is as profound as any moral obligation any group of citizens has had throughout our country's history. We have to win these elections. And there are. There are two things that worry me because, like, we have the wind in our sails. I'm holding rallies across Georgia that I barely promote, that thousands of people are coming to you all Remember, you know, I ran in the first big U.S. house race after Trump was elected the first time. Then those double header, double overtime Senate runoffs for the Senate majority in 2021. So, like, I have run the most dramatic moments of the Trump era.
- [80:37]
Tommy Vietor
No pressure in those races.
- [80:39]
Senator Jon Ossoff
And I've never seen opposition energy and determination like I'm seeing right now. And even all of the angst that's directed at the Democratic Party is actually a good sign in that it shows the passion that people feel to oppose this and to right the ship. What worries me is that we're a little too in our own heads.
- [81:03]
Tommy Vietor
In what sense?
- [81:04]
Senator Jon Ossoff
In the sense that a loss of faith, a loss of confidence in our ability as citizens to use the rights we have as citizens to shape this country's future. Because we're doom scrolling in the fetal position, Right? Or waiting for some charismatic savior to ride in as a national figure who will fix all this. Like, we have a president who is completely out of control, a crook engaged in unprecedented, brazen personal corruption, who is passing one of the most unpopular agendas in American history. The public is turning against him. The opposition is motivated. We can win and we have to win, but we don't have the luxury of despair or, or self pity or kind of wallowing in doubt. So I just want folks to focus on what we can control. And yes, you know, we in Congress have obligations to rise to this moment and all of us have obligations to work like hell to win these midterm elections and to restore some checks and balances to Washington.
- [82:10]
Tommy Vietor
All right, I'll take that as a pump up speech. I'll stop doom scrolling for that. That works for me.
- [82:14]
Senator Jon Ossoff
Just cut the doom scrolling in half.
- [82:17]
Tommy Vietor
Yeah, that's honestly a good note. You mentioned the corruption of this whole thing. I think it's the most undercovered story of the administration is the, the corruption that's happening in plain sight. I mean, some of it's not in plain sight. We heard about Tom Homan getting the border czar getting a kava bag with like 50 grand in it.
- [82:34]
Senator Jon Ossoff
Who among us, you know, it's like.
- [82:37]
Tommy Vietor
Done one of these. Apparently he was going to get 50 grand in exchange for government contracts. Then every time Trump goes on a foreign trip, Don Jr. Or Eric follows behind, right? And they announce a billion dollar real estate deal. We got a golf course in Vietnam, we got a tower in Dubai, whatever. And then for me, it's like the crypto is the main event. There was this big New York Times story the other day. Yeah, that alleged Basically, a quid pro quo between the Trump Organization, the Trump family and the United Arab Emirates in which this Emirati linked investment company put $2 billion into Trump's crypto company. And then shortly after, the administration agreed to sell the Emiratis very advanced AI chips, like a huge national security consideration was at play. How do you think we can get people to notice and care about this stuff? Because I feel like when I try to tell people in my life who are not, who are just kind of like normie voters, they're like, oh, you know, all politicians are corrupt. They all do this kind of thing. They throw some Hunter Biden line at me, and then what can Congress do about it if we actually win the midterms?
- [83:40]
Senator Jon Ossoff
So a few thoughts on the corruption. First of all, I think we have to absolutely hammer away at it and make sure that the public sees it and understands it, because it is, it is like the most shocking, brazen, and overt abuse of power in presidential history. By degrees of magnitude. We're talking about billions of dollars, a lot of it through cryptocurrency vehicles, directly to the First Family. And he's got his personal envoy. Right, like his, his, his, his sort of roving diplomat, Steve Wikoff.
- [84:16]
Tommy Vietor
Yeah.
- [84:17]
Senator Jon Ossoff
Who, by the way, the wars that they promised to end are still raging. Whose son is doing business with the Trump boys in this World Liberty Financial vehicle that foreign sovereign wealth funds are pouring billions of dollars into. You know, there is good reason to believe that they are shaping American grand strategy around the personal financial interests of the First Family. And the hypocrisy is stunning. Like, one of the things I said at a rally a few months ago is like, Hunter Biden should have been more ambitious. This is an insane level of corruption and self enrichment. But I think there's a deeper story here about corruption in American politics, which is something the Democratic Party needs to focus on, which is that Trump, in my view, is a symptom of the deeper corruption in our politics. Like, how is it that we have a demagogue who promises to tear it all down, elected twice to the presidency? It's in part because much of the American public has lost faith in our political system.
- [85:34]
Tommy Vietor
Totally agree.
- [85:35]
Senator Jon Ossoff
And with just cause. Since Citizens United, this political system has been corruption on steroids. And that is a big part of why policy doesn't serve ordinary people. So as Trump poses this sort of radical threat to the rule of law and the Constitution, things that we have to protect, we can't just become mere guardians of the status quo. We have to be about change and reform. And money in politics is like the root of all of this. We have to focus on that. You know, the vast sums of corporate and billionaire money in our political system, with or without Trump, are why ordinary people are so ill served by elected officials and by Congress. We need to take up that mantle and run with it. And if we don't solve this problem, even once we put Trump back in the box in the midterms, and once he's gone, the country will still be in deep trouble.
- [86:37]
Tommy Vietor
So look, I totally agree with you. I worked for Barack Obama in the Senate in 2006 and there was this big scandal for the old heads out there. You might remember Jack Abramoff, who is this sketchy lobbyist who has given people boxes at football games and stuff. It was a deep corrupt scandal. And so Democrats ran hard on a reform agenda in the 2006 midterms and did incredibly well. And Barack Obama was kind of out front of that. And so I totally agree with you. I've seen both the necessity of it.
- [87:07]
Jon Favreau
Right.
- [87:07]
Tommy Vietor
I agree that money is kind of the original sin for a lot of our political problems, but also the political upside of it. I guess the question is, what does that reform agenda look like? Is it no PAC money, no lobbyist money? Are we talking about stock trading for members of Congress? Like, how are you thinking about what that.
- [87:22]
Senator Jon Ossoff
Yeah, all of these things and more. I mean, I have been championing legislation to ban members of Congress from trading stock. My campaigns have not taken contributions from corporate PACs or from federal lobbyists. I've introduced a bill to ban corporate PACs. You know, the, the American people understand that the system really is rigged, but Trump is not unrigging it. He's re rigging it for himself and his, his personal financial interest and his family's financial interest. So, you know, we have to be about change and recognize that the public's complaints are legit. This isn't working for people and we have better solutions.
- [88:10]
Tommy Vietor
And it's so hard, right, because some of this is like a, it feels like a financial arms race, you know, like we need to make sure we're raising as much as they are. Now every candidate has a super pac. We're spending billions in presidential elections. And I think there's a concern, you see, with redistricting too, right? Like Trump's doing this mid year redistricting in Texas. So Democrats are fighting fire with fire in California. I think that's the right thing to do. But I do worry it kind of muddies up our efforts at being the Reform Party.
- [88:40]
Senator Jon Ossoff
Yeah, I hear that concern. I mean, I think that what we have to acknowledge is that the corruption is bipartisan. Right. The whole Congress is captured by big money, and people want to hear that. We recognize that because it's true. Right. And so.
- [89:01]
Tommy Vietor
And obvious.
- [89:02]
Senator Jon Ossoff
And obvious. And, you know, like, you take something like, okay, taxes on the ultra rich, it's like, it's almost like an 8020 issue in public opinion. Right. But everyone knows that the reason that it never happens is because of the financial power and therefore the political power of super wealthy people, regardless of who's in charge.
- [89:33]
Tommy Vietor
Right.
- [89:34]
Senator Jon Ossoff
So, you know, we're, we're, we have to focus on. Not exclusively, but we have to make sure people are aware of that. Donald Trump, his administration are engaged in some of the most brazen and overt corruption. It's happening, like, in the world right now.
- [89:50]
Jon Favreau
Right.
- [89:50]
Senator Jon Ossoff
I mean, they're operating like, like some of the most shameless foreign leaders who mix state business with family wealth and personal business. But we also have to get at the underlying corruption in American politics.
- [90:03]
Tommy Vietor
Yeah, it's like autocrats and their princelings and their oligarchs.
- [90:08]
Jon Favreau
It's all.
- [90:09]
Tommy Vietor
It's just a mess. Switching gears a little bit, I just want to talk about freedom of speech in this country. At this moment, listeners have probably followed the saga of Jimmy Kimmel. Kimmel was pulled off the air after he made a joke about Trump's reaction to the assassination of Charlie Kirk. Then earlier this week, Kimmel was put back on the air. That enraged Trump. Trump called the show an illegal campaign contribution and suggested he'd once again be suing abc, noting, quote, last time I went after them, they gave me $16 million. This one sounds even more lucrative, end quote. How concerned are you or at all about the FCC's actions in this case? And then just sort of like the totality of the threats to free speech we've seen since January of this year.
- [90:50]
Senator Jon Ossoff
Yeah, we should all be extremely concerned by this. I mean, you got the President standing on Air Force One, threatening to take news broadcasters off the air because he thinks their coverage is too negative. Right. This is, that's like, this is North Korea. I mean, it is so beyond the pale. And, you know, before I was a candidate for any office, I ran a business that produced investigative journalism for international news media. We held power to account. We exposed war crimes, human rights abuses, undercover investigations of official corruption. Once you chill and stifle and destroy the free press, that is how authoritarianism really entrenches And I think that their agenda is very clear and extremely dangerous. And actually, I gotta give, at least I know the bar is very low. But there were a couple of Republican elected officials who spoke out on it, for sure. We have to reach out to folks on the other side and try to make sure this does not become a partisan issue. And again, the public is with us.
- [92:02]
Jon Favreau
Right.
- [92:02]
Senator Jon Ossoff
I mean, getting back to reasons for us to feel optimistic about our prospects to win next year. Just like the country is against defunding hospitals and nursing homes to cut taxes for the rich, the American people are against official censorship. And this is a deep betrayal of some of what they proclaim to their followers, animated their campaign. Right. The sort of railing against the excesses of Cancel Culture. And you've seen among some of their supporters that they're shaken by this betrayal of those supposed principles.
- [92:33]
Tommy Vietor
Yeah, I agree. And also, look, I think people also have to understand the context of that kind of a threat to free speech or news gathering or investigative journalism like you are working on, when that's coming from the US government. That is terrifying because it's also, there's like spyware for hire everywhere these days. There's groups like the NSO group that are buying this, you know, hacking software, like Pegasus.
- [92:57]
Senator Jon Ossoff
Yeah, I just opened a contract with them.
- [92:59]
Tommy Vietor
Did they really? With the NSO group?
- [93:00]
Senator Jon Ossoff
Yeah.
- [93:00]
Tommy Vietor
Oh, that's great.
- [93:01]
Senator Jon Ossoff
I think it's, it's the successor. It's like Paragon, I think it's called.
- [93:03]
Tommy Vietor
Oh, yes. Oh, good. Yeah. So I mean, I'm just saying that these journalists are under threat from every direction financially, from rogue states, from spyware for hire, and now from the ftc. It's like, it's pretty scary stuff.
- [93:15]
Senator Jon Ossoff
I think the other piece of this, that, that it's like more complicated but potentially equally dangerous is the use of official power to bully tech companies into how they run the algorithm that delivers content to people. Right. Like threatening to take NBC off the air because you think that their coverage is too negative is obviously like a brazen, unconstitutional, un American attempt at a sort of classic form of censorship. But you know, if they go to Meta or they go to Musk or this group of allies who may now be running Tick Tock and they say, turn the dial, turn the dial. You know, that is a more subtle. But in this world that we're living in, potentially more powerful way for them to control the information that gets to the public.
- [94:19]
Tommy Vietor
Yeah, it's insidious. You know, you mentioned some of the Republicans saying the right thing about free speech. Someone like Ted Cruz, for example, came out and said the FCC chairman was acting like a mob boss out of Goodfellas. And like, good, good for Ted Cruz for saying that. I think if he were sitting at this table and we were kind of, you know, pointing the finger at him and what the FCC was doing, he would respond along the lines that you just did. Well, during the Biden administration, the White House was going to tech companies and telling them to censor speech around Covid or, you know, social issues, etc. Do you think that we, the Democrats or the Biden administration overreached at that point in ways that in hindsight were maybe showed less of a commitment to free speech than we should have been showing?
- [95:04]
Senator Jon Ossoff
I think probably yes, in some cases, but I think that the whataboutism is, like, pretty limited in its validity because we're talking about things that are vastly different. Right. And I think federal courts rebuked the Biden administration for some of the way that the tech companies were being talked to about information about public health that was coming out during the COVID pandemic. Right. And that was probably overreach. But it's nothing like the President saying, I'm going to take broadcasters off the air because their coverage is too negative. So, you know, we should not. Yeah, we obviously need to practice what we preach and acknowledge where there may have been mistakes. But let's not for a moment indulge the lie that these are equivalent in any way.
- [95:56]
Tommy Vietor
Yeah. You mentioned ice, buying the Pegasus, like, software, working with the NSO groups, whatever their new corporate name is. I know your office has been investigating ICE and human rights abuses in US Immigration detention facilities. Can you just talk to us about what you guys have found?
- [96:15]
Senator Jon Ossoff
Yeah, well, I've been investigating not just homeland security facilities, but federal prisons, state and local prisons, in jail since I was elected. I mean, and, you know, that has been sort of the continuity of effort for me, having left investigative journalism and entering office. The oversight muscles in Congress are so atrophied. Right. Like, most of the oversight is partisan oversight, and very little of it is just pure public interest oversight.
- [96:45]
Tommy Vietor
Can you tell the. Explain the distinction in your mind?
- [96:48]
Senator Jon Ossoff
Yeah. So most of the oversight in Congress is like one party investigating the other party's efforts, and there's a role for that in ensuring that there's accountability. Right. Like, you have to have that kind of hostile exchange in order to ensure that things are brought into the public light and debated, no matter who's in power. But what gets neglected is oversight. That's essential for principled moral reasons, human rights reasons, but for which there's no obvious political ward. You know, like there's not, there's not a lot of political upside to investigating the abuse of federal inmates.
- [97:26]
Jon Favreau
Right.
- [97:27]
Senator Jon Ossoff
And so we have this federal prison system where there's this ongoing multi decade human rights crisis that gets very little attention from Congress. You know, so I've led investigations of. Of corruption and civil rights abuses in federal prisons, of uncounted deaths in state and local prisons and jails. One investigation from two or three years ago, it was a bipartisan investigation where the ranking member on the subcommittee la was Senator Ron Johnson of Wisconsin. Not exactly a fellow traveler. No, ideologically.
- [98:01]
Tommy Vietor
Right.
- [98:02]
Senator Jon Ossoff
But, you know, I got him to work with me on an investigation into an ICE detention facility in Georgia where we found, and it was a bipartisan finding, that multiple female immigration detainees at this facility had been subjected to unnecessary, invasive, and in some cases, non consensual gynecological surgical procedures while in US. Surgical procedures.
- [98:28]
Tommy Vietor
Jesus Christ.
- [98:30]
Senator Jon Ossoff
So I say all that to say that my, my efforts to investigate human rights abuses in prisons, jails, and detention facilities is not new. This year I opened a new inquiry anticipating that there would be an even higher level of brutality by this administration in these facilities. And what we had found through July was more than 500 credible reports of human rights abuses in DHS detention facilities, including of pregnant women, children, some of whom were U.S. citizens. And the last thing I'll just say about this, because I think it just speaks to, like, the character of this administration is I released that report within like 90 minutes. The administration just issued a blanket denial and basically said, everything is fine in all of our facilities, and this is all lies.
- [99:21]
Tommy Vietor
I read their response. It literally didn't seem to engage on the substance of any of the specifics in your report.
- [99:28]
Senator Jon Ossoff
No, I mean, it's. It's just deny, deny, deny, they do not care. And I, you know, it. It really saddens me to say it, but I think that there are some folks in this administration and at this White House who relish the brutality of the system they're creating.
- [99:47]
Tommy Vietor
Yeah, clearly they do. I'm gonna jump around a little bit.
- [99:50]
Senator Jon Ossoff
Sure.
- [99:50]
Tommy Vietor
Because we're getting to the end. So, you know, speaking of gross human rights violations, a few minutes ago, right before we started recording, Trump told reporters, quote, I will not allow Israel to annex the West Bank. Nope, I won't allow it. It's not going to happen. And then speaking about the war, he said, there's been enough. It's Time to stop now. Do you believe him? Do you see any evidence that the administration is exerting pressure on the Israeli government either to stop the war in Gaza or prevent annexation in the West Bank?
- [100:20]
Senator Jon Ossoff
No, there is to date, zero pressure. And you know, the, the, the reality is that the, the slow motion annexation of the west bank has been the Likud and Netanyahu policy, ongoing now for many, many years. I mean, it is like a work in progress. So, you know, I suppose that is a, a welcome statement, but I am pretty skeptical that it'll be met with any kind of policy. One thing I do want to say about this while we're on the subject and since we've been talking about the role of the press is international media have been launching yet another push to call for access for journalists to Gaza. And I just want to lend my voice and support to that effort. I've seen personally through the work that I've helped lead and produce, how essential it is to have independent journalism in places where there's armed conflict, to hold warring parties to account, where there are serious human rights abuses, and the continued exclusion of journalists from Gaza is completely unacceptable. And I want to state unequivocally my support for that call and once again call on the Israeli government to permit journalists to access that area.
- [101:52]
Tommy Vietor
It really is amazing. It's been nearly two years, no press access. I mean, there's some incredibly brave Palestinian journalists on the ground providing vital reporting, video evidence and doing so at great risk to themselves. I mean, hundreds of journalists in Gaza have been killed throughout the conflict by Palestinian airstrikes or God knows what else. But yeah, I think it's a really important and not widely understood fact, frankly, about the war. Yeah, former Vice President Kamal Harris, she got a book out, you may have heard. It's ruffling some feathers in the Democratic Party. One piece in particular, she wrote that Joe Biden's decision to run for reelection was reckless. Do you agree with that characterization?
- [102:37]
Senator Jon Ossoff
Well, I think that events have proven it to be the wrong decision. I mean, I was not in the.
- [102:42]
Jon Favreau
Room.
- [102:45]
Senator Jon Ossoff
But I think it's clear that he wasn't up for it. And by the time the decision was made to make a change, it was very, very late in the game.
- [102:54]
Tommy Vietor
Do you think that's like a one off situational challenge? Look, I think back to that time and I felt in my, my heart that I knew Joe Biden was too old, but I kind of wondered like what value there was. I mean, after the debate it was obvious, right? And people were like, he's got to go, he's got to, you know, step down. But I think when he ran, we all thought he was going to be a bridge, you know, maybe just a four year, one term president and then hand the reins over to somebody else for a contested primary. Do you think that there was something preventing, I don't know, a more honest conversation about his prospects within Democratic Party? Because, like, the data was there, voters were telling us he was too old. Focus groups, they were telling us he was too old. We just didn't listen to the mounds and mounds of data that was out there.
- [103:47]
Senator Jon Ossoff
I think that, like the, that the most brutally honest answer to that question is, you know, when you're facing the specter of Donald Trump potentially being reelected to the presidency and you have in the sitting president the presumptive nominee, it's understandable that you're not going to be inclined to do or say things that might weaken that presumptive nominee.
- [104:14]
Tommy Vietor
Right.
- [104:14]
Senator Jon Ossoff
Against Trump.
- [104:16]
Tommy Vietor
Right.
- [104:16]
Senator Jon Ossoff
Given the threat that he posed and poses. But, you know, I think that, look, I think the other, the other piece of this, and one of the reasons that I think, you know, Democrats across the country, you mentioned, you know, they have this, and I hear this everywhere, right. Like this longing for public leadership. Right. And for folks to follow and for a clear voice and a clear rallying cry. And I say this with all due respect to the former president, and I think he achieved some pretty extraordinary things while he was in office, things that certainly helped Georgia on insulin prices and clean energy manufacturing. But we did not have a powerful voice communicating and leading for much of the latter half of that term. And that certainly contributed to the defeat in the election. But you know what, what, I think what we need that we haven't had in a long time is, you know, a deep and compelling story and vision about where the country is and where the country needs to go. And, you know, so the lack of a strong presidential voice for an extended period there took a toll, no doubt.
- [105:31]
Tommy Vietor
Yeah, definitely. Did you have a big reelection coming up? I saw outside groups are already announcing how many millions they're going to spend against you. How are you guys feeling about the state of the race? What do folks need to know and how can they, how can they help you out?
- [105:43]
Senator Jon Ossoff
Yeah, look, this will be the biggest Senate race of, of the midterms. And I, I, I, I just, I keep happening to run in these, you know, huge consequential elections, but I'm the only Democrat running for reelection in the state that Donald Trump won, so I'm their number one target. They want the, the seat. And what, you know, a couple of Republican colleagues have told me privately is they also, the GOP wants me gone. Right. For all the reasons that we've just discussed. Like, they don't want fresh voices, young, you know, young blood in the opposition.
- [106:16]
Jon Favreau
Right.
- [106:17]
Senator Jon Ossoff
That sometimes I joke to people, no disrespect to anyone out there, but, you know, it's like, I, I work in the most powerful and prestigious senior center in America. And so they have a lot of motivation to defeat me. They spent $310 million or so to try to fend me off the first time.
- [106:35]
Tommy Vietor
So much money for a second.
- [106:36]
Senator Jon Ossoff
I expect that they will spend like half a billion dollars to try to beat me this time. And so my message to folks, and I say it like, just to be very, very real, is please help. Right? Go to electjohn.com, support the campaign, do what you can. $10, $15, just. We don't have the luxury of despair right now. We cannot spend the next 15 months wringing our hands and in worry and depression. We have to win these elections. We need to win in a landslide. We need to be in a winning mindset. We need to recognize that we're facing an unpopular president doing immense damage to the country. We have the wind at our backs, and as long as we don't defeat ourselves, we're going to win. But it is going to take resources. So please support my campaign.
- [107:24]
Tommy Vietor
It's a great pitch. You don't think the Villages is a more distinguished retirement? Last question. So you have a three year old and a four month old?
- [107:34]
Senator Jon Ossoff
Yeah. So between that, that's about the same age as your kids, right?
- [107:37]
Tommy Vietor
Yeah, I've got a two year old.
- [107:38]
Jon Favreau
And one year old.
- [107:39]
Tommy Vietor
So I guess between that parenting and the reelection, you sleep sometime in 2030. Is that the goal?
- [107:46]
Senator Jon Ossoff
I. God bless my wife. I love you, Alicia. You know, it's, it is the, you know, like world's tiniest violin and everything, but it is sort of the, the toughest part, obviously, is the time away from kids because, you know, you, of course, you've got kids this age, like, it's like physically painful and, and like when they're so young, every week it's like a whole new, you know, so many new discoveries, new personalities. So. But it also motivates me, you know, to understand the stakes for the next generation. But, yeah, I mean, my wife's a practicing physician. She's an OB doctor in Georgia. And we're blessed to have These. These beautiful children and, my God, you.
- [108:28]
Tommy Vietor
Guys are a busy house.
- [108:29]
Senator Jon Ossoff
Busy. But, you know, people ask me how I'm doing, it's like, as long as. As long as our children are healthy.
- [108:34]
Tommy Vietor
Yeah.
- [108:34]
Senator Jon Ossoff
You know, that's the most important thing.
- [108:36]
Jon Favreau
Yeah.
- [108:36]
Tommy Vietor
Do you guys. I don't know if you do screen time. Do you have a favorite show, like Ms. Rachel House Bluey?
- [108:43]
Senator Jon Ossoff
So Eva, who's the three year old, she watches a lot of ballet.
- [108:49]
Tommy Vietor
Okay.
- [108:50]
Senator Jon Ossoff
She watches a lot of Winnie the Pooh, by the way. A lot. Like, we limit the screen time, of course, but, you know, she just got into this. I don't know if I should be, like, plugging TV shows on the show, but she just started watching. I think it's like an Irish show called Puff and Rock, which is very cute. Puffin Rock, Little animals Living. So if you're looking for writing that down. Safe, nurturing, content, you know, I recommend it.
- [109:10]
Tommy Vietor
My daughter is now doing ballet.
- [109:13]
Senator Jon Ossoff
Yeah. So Ziva.
- [109:13]
Jon Favreau
Okay.
- [109:14]
Tommy Vietor
But did she do it in the, like, the tap shoes? The old school kind?
- [109:17]
Senator Jon Ossoff
She's got little, like, she's just in, like, pink socks.
- [109:19]
Tommy Vietor
Okay.
- [109:19]
Senator Jon Ossoff
Yeah.
- [109:19]
Tommy Vietor
Lizzie's got little tap shoes, and they're fun until she jumps on her brother's foot and then we got problems. Do you have a preferred duty? Are you, like, given bottles, diapers, general tidying?
- [109:29]
Senator Jon Ossoff
I do it all.
- [109:30]
Tommy Vietor
Yeah.
- [109:31]
Senator Jon Ossoff
I mean, and I really relish it. Like, my. My team, if they had their way, you know, Much love to my team, but my team, if they had their way, would have me, you know, all day, every day, every weekend. When I. When I first got to the Senate, I sat down with, like a. I mentioned that, you know, it is a body of very mature states, people. I sat down with a very, very, very senior member and sort of asked for some advice. And what this senator told me was he was like, john, I. I don't remember a single fish fry, chicken dinner, you know, county fair or whatever that. That I felt like I had to go to, but I missed. But I. But I remember every ballet recital, soccer game, birthday party that I miss. Like, don't be like me. So I have just walled off time.
- [110:23]
Tommy Vietor
Some Cat Stevens Cats in the Cradle shit right there.
- [110:25]
Jon Favreau
I've just.
- [110:26]
Senator Jon Ossoff
I have just like, walled off time. And I'm just. I don't want to have the regret of having missed their. Their childhood.
- [110:32]
Tommy Vietor
No. That's tough. Well, listen, it sounds like. Sounds like it's a good, Good life balance there. Senator Ossoff, thank you so much for doing the show, everyone. What's that website again.
- [110:41]
Senator Jon Ossoff
It's electjohn.com. hey, just one more note. Like, I know is really tough and it's bleak and okay, but it's not. It's not Jim Crow. Okay? Like, Americans have been through a lot and gotten through a lot and built a better, more beautiful, more just country. So this is our challenge. This is our moment. Let's just rise to it and win.
- [111:06]
Tommy Vietor
Yeah, I bet 1963 was pretty scary.
- [111:08]
Senator Jon Ossoff
Yeah.
- [111:09]
Tommy Vietor
You know, JFK getting shot, Jim Crow. Wise words, Senator. Thank you.
- [111:13]
Senator Jon Ossoff
Thank you.
- [111:19]
Jon Favreau
That's our show for today. Thanks to Jon Ossoff for coming by. Love it. Tommy and I will be back with a new show on Tuesday.
- [111:24]
Dan Pfeiffer
Bye, everyone.
- [111:27]
Jon Favreau
If you want to listen to Pod Save America ad free and get access to exclusive podcasts, go to cricket.com friends to subscribe on Supercast, Substack, YouTube or Apple Podcasts. Also, please consider leaving us a review that helps boost this episode and everything we do here at Crooked. Pod Save America is a crooked media production. Our producers are David Toledo, Emma Ilik Frank and Saul Rubin. Our associate producer is Farah Safari. Austin Fisher is our senior producer. Reid Churlin is our executive editor. Adrienne Hill is our head of news and politics. The show is mixed and edited by Andrew Chadwick. Jordan Kanter is our sound engineer with audio support from Kyle Seglin and Charlotte Landis. Matt de Groat is our head of production. Naomi Sengel is our executive assistant. Thanks to our digital team, Elijah Cohn, Haley Jones, Ben Hefcote, Mia Kelly, Carol Pelaviev, David Toles and Ryan Young. Our production staff is proudly unionized with the Writers Guild of America East.
- [112:29]
Senator Jon Ossoff
Rated M for mature.
- [112:31]
Jon Favreau
Who are you?
- [112:32]
Dan Pfeiffer
A wandering spirit seeking vengeance.
- [112:36]
Jon Favreau
You live. I thought we killed your whole family, but here you are, little wolf.
- [112:43]
Dan Pfeiffer
My name is atu.
- [112:46]
Jon Favreau
Every member of the Yotei six will suffer.
- [112:50]
Senator Jon Ossoff
Get lost in the hunt.
- [112:52]
Dan Pfeiffer
Forge a new path at the edge of Japan.
- [112:54]
Senator Jon Ossoff
Ghost of Yotei available October 2nd on PS5.
- [112:59]
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