Trump Heals Grieving Nation

Summary

Pod Save America Episode Summary: "Trump Heals Grieving Nation"

Released on January 31, 2025

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1. Introduction to Trump's Early Presidency and the DCA Plane Crash

The episode kicks off with host Jon Favreau introducing the tumultuous early days of Donald Trump's second term. A tragic incident—the collision of an American Airlines flight from Wichita with a military helicopter near Washington D.C.—claims the lives of 64 passengers and three military personnel. The event marks the first fatal commercial plane crash on American soil in 16 years, thrusting Trump into a position of immediate crisis management.

Key Discussion Points:

• Trump's Immediate Response: President Trump holds a press conference the morning after the crash, aiming to console the nation and assert the safety of air travel despite limited information about the incident.

• Blaming Diversity Initiatives: In a controversial move, Trump attributes the crash to diversity programs within the Federal Aviation Administration (FAA), criticizing Secretary Pete Buttigieg's oversight of the department. At [03:53], Ben Rhodes states:

  "We do not know what led to this crash, but we have some very strong opinions and ideas... Obama, Biden and the Democrats put policy first... He feels diversity hiring may have contributed."

Notable Quotes:

• Ben Rhodes [03:53]: “We do not know what led to this crash, but we have some very strong opinions and ideas...”
• Dan Pfeiffer [06:04]: “It is absolutely disgusting and cynical what Trump did is right. There are upwards of 70 families who are dealing with loss...”

2. Democratic Response to Trump's Actions

The hosts delve into the Democrats' strategies in reacting to Trump's missteps. They critique the party's initial silence and equivocal messaging, emphasizing the need for a more vocal and unified stance against Trump's aggressive policies and blames.

Key Discussion Points:

• Critique of Democratic Strategy: Dan Pfeiffer highlights the Democrats' frustration with their own response, noting a lack of strong opposition to Trump's cabinet nominations and policies.

• Importance of Active Communication: Jon Favreau stresses the necessity for Democrats to actively communicate their positions and rally support, rather than waiting for the perfect message. At [37:41], he remarks:

  “Just get out there and start talking. Volume and frequency are much more important than precision when it comes to messaging.”

Notable Quotes:

• Dan Pfeiffer [25:28]: “Everyone has their thing. But we cannot allow this to just become the normal way in which we do things.”
• Jon Favreau [37:25]: “If there is one lesson of the Trump era, it's that volume and frequency are much more important than precision when it comes to messaging.”

3. Trump's Executive Orders and Federal Spending Freeze

A critical focus of the episode is Trump's flurry of executive orders aimed at reshaping federal policies, including efforts to restrict diversity in hiring and enforce loyalty tests among federal employees. The discussion also covers a controversial memorandum from the Office of Management and Budget (OMB) that attempted to freeze federal spending, leading to widespread chaos and legal challenges.

Key Discussion Points:

• Spending Freeze Memo: The OMB's unfunded memorandum initiates a freeze on federal grants and loans, disrupting programs like Medicaid, Head Start, and college financial aid. This action is quickly blocked by federal judges and subsequently rescinded by the White House, albeit manipulatively.

• Implications for Federal Institutions: Dan Pfeiffer warns of the long-term dangers of Trump's administration attempting to wield control over federal spending, undermining constitutional checks and balances. At [26:20], he states:

  “The President does have the power to control all federal spending and decide who gets what money, even though it is the job of Congress, according to the Constitution, to appropriate funding.”

Notable Quotes:

• Jon Favreau [21:09]: “Find out what we need to have safe air travel and do it. It doesn't matter whose politics that fucks up, just do it.”
• Dan Pfeiffer [22:26]: “This is the full conservative project of decades now, which is to hollow out the federal government so it can do less stuff than it continues to do.”

4. Executive Orders Targeting Various Sectors

The hosts examine several of Trump's executive orders that aim to deregulate or reverse policies in education, healthcare, and immigration.

Key Discussion Points:

• Education Policies: Trump issues orders to punish schools that teach about racism and discrimination, promoting "patriotic" education. This leads to confusion and hesitancy among educational institutions fearing federal repercussions.

• Healthcare and Gender Affirming Care: An executive order bans gender-affirming care for trans children, prompting healthcare providers to suspend such services to avoid conflicts with federal directives.

• Immigration Policies: Plans to house thousands of immigrants at Guantanamo Bay and mass emails encouraging federal employees to resign or face loyalty tests highlight Trump's aggressive stance on immigration and government workforce control.

Notable Quotes:

• Jon Favreau [46:47]: “Are we really going to build a 30,000 person detention facility in Guantanamo Bay? Just for context, the Cook County Jail in Chicago is one of the largest single-site facilities in the country...”
• Dan Pfeiffer [43:24]: “The chilling effect is there. Schools and hospitals are making decisions to avoid getting on the wrong side of Trump.”

5. Senate Confirmation Hearings for Trump’s Cabinet Nominees

The episode covers the contentious confirmation hearings of three of Trump's most extreme cabinet nominees: RFK Jr. for Health and Human Services, Tulsi Gabbard for Director of National Intelligence, and Cash Patel for the FBI. These hearings are marked by aggressive questioning from Democratic senators aiming to expose the nominees' questionable qualifications and stances.

Key Discussion Points:

• RFK Jr.'s Hearings: RFK Jr. faces tough questioning over his vaccine stances and controversial statements. Democratic senators, particularly from Colorado, effectively challenge his positions, potentially swaying Republican votes against his confirmation.

• Tulsi Gabbard and Cash Patel: Both nominees are scrutinized for their past associations and lack of relevant experience. Gabbard is criticized for her perceived associations with Assad and Putin, while Patel faces backlash for his adoring support of Trump and lack of FBI experience.

Notable Quotes:

• Ben Rhodes [58:13]: “Do you agree with President Trump that every abortion is a tragedy?”
• Dan Pfeiffer [59:02]: “There are ways to score political points with the public, but to actually defeat him, you need to get a Republican to vote against him.”

6. The Federal Government's Buyout Email to Employees

Trump's administration sends a mass email to over 2 million federal employees, urging them to resign or face loyalty tests. This move resembles Elon Musk's approach at Twitter and signals an aggressive attempt to reshuffle the federal workforce according to Trump’s preferences.

Key Discussion Points:

• Nature of the Buyout: While officially presented as a buyout opportunity, experts suggest it's a tactic to encourage forcible resignations, undermining civil service protections.

• Long-Term Goals: Dan Pfeiffer connects this strategy to a broader conservative agenda to hollow out the federal government, ultimately aiming to dismantle essential programs like Social Security and Medicare.

Notable Quotes:

• Jon Favreau [54:18]: “Russ Vogt... says we want to make working in the federal government as traumatic as possible for bureaucrats.”
• Dan Pfeiffer [55:57]: “This is the full conservative project of decades now, which is to hollow out the federal government so it can do less stuff than it continues to do.”

7. Concluding Thoughts and Outlook

The hosts express deep concern over the trajectory of Trump's presidency, emphasizing the potential constitutional crises and the erosion of democratic institutions. They highlight the challenges Democrats face in mounting an effective opposition while grappling with internal frustrations and external threats.

Key Discussion Points:

• Constitutional Crisis Risks: Jon Favreau warns of potential confrontations between Trump and the Supreme Court, especially if the President disregards judicial decisions.

• Democratic Strategy Moving Forward: Emphasizing the importance of maintaining active communication and unified messaging, the hosts advocate for Democrats to intensify their opposition through consistent and volume-driven campaigning.

Notable Quotes:

• Jon Favreau [57:06]: “That is part of the reason that they walked back the spending freeze because it caused the kind of uproar around the country that they know is unpopular.”
• Dan Pfeiffer [59:21]: “This is a running joke for nearly a decade among us about being sent to Guantanamo... It is going to be deeply damaging to our reputation around the world.”

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Conclusion

In this episode, Pod Save America provides a comprehensive analysis of the early actions of Trump's second term, highlighting the administration's aggressive policy shifts, controversial cabinet nominations, and attempts to undermine federal institutions. The hosts critically assess both Trump's maneuvers and the Democratic response, advocating for a more robust and unified opposition to protect democratic norms and institutions.

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Note: Timestamps refer to the podcast's transcript and are approximate.

Transcript

[Jon Favreau]

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[Dan Pfeiffer]

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[Jon Favreau]

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[Tommy Vietor]

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[Dan Pfeiffer]

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[Ben Rhodes]

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[Jon Favreau]

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[Dan Pfeiffer]

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[Jon Favreau]

Welcome to Pod Save America. I'm Jon Favreau.

[Dan Pfeiffer]

I'm Dan Pfeiffer.

[Jon Favreau]

On today's show, three of Donald Trump's most extreme cabinet nominees were peppered with questions at their confirmation hearings. This week. We'll talk about the nuttiest moments and whether any of it will matter in the end. We'll also get into the nationwide chaos caused by Trump's spending freeze, which the White House backed away from after a judge blocked the order. But even as Trump cut bait on that dangerous and terrible idea, he moved ahead with many more, including forcing every federal employee to resign or face loyalty tests and preparing to house thousands of immigrants at Guantanamo Bay. What a wonderful country. But first, we shouldn't have to talk about the plane crash in D.C. on this show because there are usually isn't an immediate political angle to a mid air collision that hasn't yet been investigated. But half the voters decided to make Donald Trump president again. So here we are. The American Airlines flight from Wichita was about to land at DCA when it collided with an army helicopter on a training mission, killing all 64 people on the plane and three in the helicopter. Trump held a press conference the next morning before anyone had any real information about what actually happened. So of course, being president, he took the opportunity to console the nation and reassure the public that air travel is safe. Let's listen.

[Ben Rhodes]

We do not know what led to this crash, but we have some very strong opinions and ideas and I think we'll probably state those opinions now. I put safety first. Obama, Biden and the Democrats put policy first. Their policy was horrible and their politics was even worse. They put a big push to put diversity into the FAA's program. And I assume maybe this is the reason. The faa, which is overseen by Secretary Pete Buttigieg, a real winner. That guy's a real winner. Do you know how badly everything's run since he's run the Department of Transportation? He's a disaster on dei.

[Jon Favreau]

And the claims that you've made, are you saying this crash was somehow caused and the result of diversity hiring? And what evidence have you seen to support these claims?

[Ben Rhodes]

It just could have been. That's why I'm trying to figure out.

[Jon Favreau]

How you can come to the conclusion.

[Ben Rhodes]

Right now that diversity had something to.

[Dan Pfeiffer]

Do with this crash.

[Ben Rhodes]

Because I have common sense, okay? And unfortunately, a lot of people don't.

[Jon Favreau]

Later in the day, he did a press event where he signed a memo to the FAA blaming the crash again on diversity programs under Obama and Biden and ordering the administrator to roll them back. So Trump has been president for two weeks, signed a record number of executive orders, fired a record number of federal workers, and is blaming his own FAA on the first fatal commercial plane crash on American soil in 16 years because the FAA says on its website that they want to make sure that people of different backgrounds have equal opportunity to get hired, including people with disabilities. Language that was there during Trump's entire first term. Term. I mean, it seems like Trump got what he wanted, which was to, you know, pick a fight about whether the plane crash was caused by diversity. And so he got. He got what he wanted because that is what everyone has had to talk about all day, arguing about whether the plane crash that has yet to be investigated, the investigation has just started. Was caused by diversity. Dan, your thoughts?

[Dan Pfeiffer]

We have to begin with just pointing out and saying out loud just how absolutely disgusting and cynical what Trump did is right. There are upwards of 70 families who are dealing with loss, who are trying to find out what happened. There are communities across this country and the world who have lost community members because of this. It is a traumatic thing for the entire nation to deal with when we have a plane crash like this. And instead of consoling people, instead of trying to comfort people, what Trump did is he, as he does with every tragedy, is immediately try to exploit it for his own gain. And I know we're going to have. This is going to happen all the time over the next four years, but I do think we have to continue to call it out when he does it, even if it is only maybe for our benefit. But we cannot, like there is something dangerous about allowing this to just become the normal way in which we do things. Just reading some rote pablum that your speechwriters wrote for you that you clearly did not care about before launching into this absurd, unfounded attack. That is not sufficient. Right. And which should be called out for. And I do think we. You say he got the debate because we are all talking about it. We, as a select group of people of which we are part of the rest of the country, did tune in for this. Right. The plane crash is something that people gets people who do not pay attention to the news to pay attention to news. It is when historically CNN's ratings go way up, it's during a plane crash, because people, they fly, they think about flying. It is a big deal. And so people who saw Trump do that today, I'm not convinced that this is some giant political winner for him to see him doing that hours after the plane crash. And so, like, yes, there will be a big debate about Di. And we can talk about how Democrats should talk about the plane crash and that going forward, but in the moment, what he did was repellent. And I think a lot of people will find it that way.

[Jon Favreau]

Sarah Longwell had done some focus groups last year early on, and she was talking to some voters in the focus group who said that they didn't like Trump, but they were going to vote for Trump. And I think there's this guy who said, you know, I'm just going to close my eyes for the next four years, not watch them on TV and just enjoy the Trump policies. And the reason that has never been a real option is because every president faces crises and disasters. And I started thinking about this when the fires hit LA a couple of weeks ago, before he was president. And as people are still fleeing from their homes, as we were all figuring out who should evacuate where and we were trying to get alerts, Donald Trump immediately kicked off this whole thing, blaming Gavin Newsom for the fires, talking about fucking water in Northern California, all that bullshit. And I thought to myself, like, this is, this is gonna be the next four years. And even in the best case scenario that any of us can imagine with the Trump presidency, right, he does a bunch of corruption still pretty bad, but we all make it. We survive a second term, like there are still gonna be crises, there are gonna be disasters, there's gonna be tragedies. And when the country tunes in, we're not gonna be able to get good information from him. He's going to pick fights with people he doesn't like and his political enemies and blame people and divide people and make people angrier. And he is going to compound every single fucking tragedy that this country faces. And God forbid, when there is a crisis that depends on all of us getting good information like there was last time he was president during the fucking pandemic, we're not gonna know what to do because we don't have. The media has been splintered, Balkanized, like no one knows where to go for good information. We can't trust our President, we can't trust the government. Cuz there's a bunch of fucking bozos that are running the government now. And you know, like last night when this first broke, I was like terrified, as you all know, very nervous flyer. It's like worst nightmare, you know. And I saw on Twitter immediately, some people on the left were like, oh, this is Trump's fault because he gutted the Aviation Safety Committee last week. And also that maybe the freeze affected this and that thing. And I thought to myself, look, maybe some of this could be true, maybe it's not. But like, I wouldn't want to say this right now, like the plane just crashed. Let's just like have a fucking Moment, let's not be like him and not because, like, we should be nice, you know, like, let's. If we want to present people with an alternative and with a real choice, then that requires not acting like Trump when a disaster happens and like immediately just throwing around accusations without knowing all the facts. And also, by the way, like, let's give the country and each other a moment to collectively grieve and mourn and also, like, find out, you know, reliable information. And so I was like, ugh, it's just like, it's so annoying. But whatever. It's like random accounts on Twitter, who the fuck cares? And then wake up today, Thursday, and the fucking President, United States is out there. The first thing he does is blame diversity. Doesn't even know who the air traffic controllers were, what caused the plane, whether it was the air traffic controllers fault, whether it was the FAA's fault, whether it was the pilot's fault, the helicopter, or whether it was no one's fault. Because sometimes tragedies just fucking happen. Fires just fucking happen. Sometimes just things happen. And like, it's just. It is, it's gonna be a long four years, man.

[Dan Pfeiffer]

It is. Two thoughts on this. One, obviously Trump, without any evidence as reporters, I think, did a very good job of calling out, blaming this on diversity. Like, it's obviously a lie that this is dei's fault. Like, Trump doesn't know that. No one knows that. And that's not how the world works. But it's also the most true thing that Trump and Republicans ever say, because it's what they truly believe is that what makes America weaker is diversity.

[Jon Favreau]

Right?

[Dan Pfeiffer]

That everything that is different from what they view as inherent American culture, white, male, Christian culture, makes us weaker. Right? It is like probably the most true thing. And I think this was Charlie Kirk who tweeted this. I would say I apologize, but I don't if it was someone else, but was. If you want to go back to the 50s, you have to get rid of the 60s or you have to undo the 60s. And that is what this is all about. This is the idea that, that like in their mind, they truly believe that any effort that seeks to add diverse points of view, diverse backgrounds to an institution, which means that it is less white, less male, is therefore a weaker institution. Like that is what they truly believe.

[Jon Favreau]

Well, I mean, what they are saying now is the new thing now is if you are a woman or a black American or Latino or, or Asian or gay or anything but a white man and you have a job that is a senior Position, whether it's in government or media or politics or anything else you got there because of diversity efforts, because of dei, there is no way you could have earned that job. It's. They start with, you got the job because of dei, and then you have to somehow prove that you didn't get the job because of dei, but that you got it because of merit.

[Dan Pfeiffer]

I mean, that's Kamala Harris, the DEI vice president.

[Jon Favreau]

Right.

[Dan Pfeiffer]

And the second thing here, and this goes a little bit to the politics of this, is there was this surreal thing of me sitting on my couch in my house in the middle of the day, watching Donald Trump in the briefing room stage, managing a press conference with a bunch of fucking dolts. Right? We were. I was like, back into 2020. And that is the stuff that people don't like about Trump, right? When they are tuning in and he is acting like a clown, when he is clearly unable to meet the moment when he has background noise to low gas prices and cheaper milk, he's fine. When he is in your face when you want information and he is making about himself, that is what causes people to take a step back, to not like about it. And that is what that was today.

[Jon Favreau]

Yeah. And he's got luminaries like Pete Hegseth and JD Vance and Sean Duffy, former Real World contestant who's now the Transportation Secretary. You know, all parroting the exact same line. It's like, all taken. They all have to take turns going up to the podium and just parroting exactly what Trump said. And, you know, idiots like Sean Duffy and Pete Hegseth, they probably believe it, too. J.D. vance, like he knows better. Like he knows better, and he's just. But he has signed up for it, and he's just gonna fucking parrot the line, the Trump line, and just be the. Be the guy that Trump calls up and says, yeah, no, go ahead, say what I just said.

[Dan Pfeiffer]

I mean, it was a press conference of two reality stars, one cable host and a former CNN pundit, all together to lead our government.

[Lovett]

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[Tommy Vietor]

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[Jon Favreau]

So I wanted to ask you about the the Democratic response. Pete Buttigieg, for example, he posted a tweet calling Trump's comments despicable, which they were, and pointing out that there were zero fatal airline crashes in the four years that he was secretary. And then saying, quote, president Trump now oversees the military and the faa. One of his first acts was to fire and suspend some of the key personnel who helped keep our skies safe. Time for the President to show actual leadership and explain what he will do to prevent this from happening again. And of course I mentioned there were, you know, pieces circulating among Trump critics about the gutted aviation Safety committee. And also how the head of the FAA resigned last week. And this was after, you know, this couple months ago, Elon Musk went after him on Twitter and said he should resign because the FAA sort of demanded some kind of safety fix to a Space X rocket. And Elon was very pissed about that. He thought it was. He thought it was regulatory overreach and said that he threatened he was going to sue the faa. So, you know, that guy's out, so there's no FAA administrator. How do you think Democrats should handle all of this?

[Dan Pfeiffer]

I think Pete handled it exactly right, which is we do. Trump wants a big fight about dei. That's the fight he wants to have. We don't have to take the bait on that. Right. We don't have to get down. We don't have to fight on his chosen territory every time. We just have to always remind ourselves that Trump is in charge of everything. He owns it all. And in this plane crash, he's the person responsible for the FAA whose air traffic controllers were giving direction to the airplane. He was in charge of the military whose helicopter was involved in the accident. He's in charge of the National Transportation Safety Board, which is investigating it. And as to the end of this investigation, if they find out that there were insufficient number of air traffic controllers, as is very possible that the few air traffic controllers we have were deployed incorrectly, Donald Trump's the person for fixing that problem. Like, he ran promising to fix all of our problems. He put us in a golden age.

[Jon Favreau]

He.

[Dan Pfeiffer]

And he did not do that. And we should hold him accountable for that. I'm not saying that voters are going to blame him on his ninth or 10th day for a plane crash that happens on his watch. I don't think they hold presidents responsible for crashing planes, but they do hold presidents accountable for how they address the crisis itself and how they solve the problems that led to that crisis. Right. The voters did not blame George W. Bush for the hurricane hitting New Orleans. They blamed them for the fact that we weren't prepared for it and how poorly responded to it and the way that he is responsible. We have to hold him accountable for what happens from this point forward.

[Jon Favreau]

Also, I think it is useful to our point that we've been making, which is, like, Democrats don't want to just defend institutions, but want to be the part. We should be the party of reform, like, have the investigation. And whatever reforms need to be made to the faa, they should be made, and we should push for them. And if there are reforms that should have been made under the Biden and Obama administrations. Then, like, let's find that out, you know, and look, every single. This was, by the way, a former FAA official sent this message to David Shepherdson at Reuters, who covers aviation for Reuters. And just so people know, he said, every single air traffic controller candidate goes under the same rigorous testing. Very few applicants even make it to the training stage because the process is so difficult. And those diversity initiatives that Trump mentioned don't even apply to air traffic controller hiring. So that's a former FAA official. So that's just complete bullshit from Trump. And then, you know, Juliette Kayam in the Atlantic, she's a former DHS official. You know, she pointed out that in 2023, FAA identified 19 serious Runway incursions, which is the most in almost a decade. So there's. This is not like completely out of the blue. There have been, there was a series of close calls over the last couple years that alarmed a lot of, you know, air safety experts. And the causes have been varied. It's either air traffic control staffing shortages, which, by the way, the New York Times reports there was one air traffic controller at DCA the night of the crash when there should have been 2. Pilot inexperience, demand for air travel, outdated technology. And of course, knowing all of this and knowing that DCA is already a very crowded airport. And there's also like, military flights and training flights like the one that took place the night of the crash, that happened. The FAA actually added flights to Reagan last year over the objections of a lot of local lawmakers.

[Dan Pfeiffer]

And why did they do that, John?

[Jon Favreau]

Why do you do.

[Dan Pfeiffer]

Well, Congress did it and why do they do it? Because they want to land at DCA instead of tell us when they come in for work.

[Jon Favreau]

But again, it's like, and you know what? So just find out what we need to have safe fucking air travel and do it. And it doesn't matter like whose politics that fucks up, just do it. But I will say that in just two weeks, the Trump administration is, you know, we're going to talk about the freezing all spending. We're going to cut government. Elon Musk is telling people to quit and to take buyouts. And if you, there's, there is waste in government, there is efficiencies to be had, there's an abuse, there's fraud. All that stuff is good, right? We should all clean up government. We should make it more efficient. But they are gutting government and want to gut government so badly that it's going to get to the Point where basic government functions that all of us depend on, like air safety, like the faa, like air traffic control, are going to be in jeopardy because these fucking people don't think we need government. They think that government is there for them to get rich and for them to, like, you know, do favors for their friends and punish their enemies. And they don't see a real use for government in helping protect the American people.

[Dan Pfeiffer]

I mean, we're going to get to the freeze and the hiring thing in a second. But just on this point, there is a shortage of air traffic controllers. You know what's going to make it harder to get more air traffic controllers? Cutting federal spending.

[Jon Favreau]

Yep.

[Dan Pfeiffer]

Making it higher to hire people and then just shitting on the federal government so much that no one wants to work there.

[Jon Favreau]

Yes.

[Dan Pfeiffer]

How are you going to get enough people, qualified people who can do the job in the pipeline? Because as this FAA official pointed out, it's hard to become an air traffic controller. You need people of certain training and qualifications, and so you need a very big funnel to get them in. And you're not going to get enough people. Qualified people do the job. If you are making it, you don't have the money to recruit them, you know, the money to pay them. And you make working the federal government seem like it sucks.

[Jon Favreau]

Especially if a lot of people who are training to be air traffic controllers, who are in school to be air traffic controllers, and the ones who aren't white men, what are they going to. Why are they going to want to be in the federal government when now, anytime that they, you know, if they get the job of air traffic controller, that Donald Trump and his administration, or potentially future Republican administrations are going to call them DEI hires. And if something goes wrong, they're going to get blamed because they're a DEI hiring. So what the fuck are we doing? So let's talk about the freeze. The other big news this week was the completely out of the blue Trump administration memo announcing a freeze on all government grants and loans. The memo followed executive orders last week calling for the government to stop spending money on WOKE projects not really defined well. And it immediately plunged nearly every function of the federal government into complete chaos. Democratic and Republican officials all over the country were fielding panicked calls from people in their states who were worried about not being able to access funding for Medicaid. The Medicaid portal was briefly shut down. Head Start classes, free school lunches, college financial aid, medical research, and a lot of other programs at the White House said were not part of the freeze, but somehow were still temporarily interrupted. A bunch of nonprofit groups immediately challenged the memo and a federal judge agreed to put it on hold for six days. The White House then rescinded the memo after the judge agreed to put it on hold so they could comply with the judge's order. But then White House Press Secretary Caroline Levitt tweeted that they weren't actually backing down and that the rescinded memo was only intended to avoid confusion with the judge's order. Then a second federal judge considering a lawsuit brought by the Democratic attorneys general said of Levitt's post, quote, I can't cross examine the tweet. Not yet, but not yet. But said but said he he may need to grant a longer term restraining order because Levitt is making, quote, a distinction without a difference. We later learned from reporting in the New York Times and the Washington Post that the White House Office of Management and Budget put out the memo without getting approval from senior officials like White House Chief of Staff Susie Wiles or even Deputy Chief of Staff Stephen Miller. And they were all pretty about the fallout. The entire episode gave Democrats a chance to show the fight that they'd been lacking over the last two weeks. And let me tell you, Dan, they were pretty happy with themselves. Let's listen to Chuck Schumer.

[Dan Pfeiffer]

People are aroused. I haven't seen people so aroused in.

[Ben Rhodes]

A very, very, very long time.

[Jon Favreau]

Dan, I wanna know when's the last time you can remember being this aroused by a rescinded OMB memo?

[Dan Pfeiffer]

Look, Jon, everyone has their thing. And I would say that OMB memos have never been my thing. But I am also not even.

[Jon Favreau]

Don't kink shame people.

[Dan Pfeiffer]

Now, I'm not kink shaming anyone, especially the Senate Minority Leader, right? So live your life, Chuck Schumer. Whatever floats your boat.

[Jon Favreau]

Wow. Wow. On the process point about how the White House rushed this decision and generally stepped on a rake, what happened to the whole this is a professional White House now Susie Wiles is running it like Seal Team 6. You know what happened? I thought we were. I thought this was the Trump White House that was finally figuring it all out.

[Dan Pfeiffer]

RIP to all of those beat sweetener pieces written by all those White House reporters about how what an amazing job Susie Wiles would do now she'd make all the trains run on time. Look, to be fair here, it is true that this version of the Trump White House is better run than the first version, but that doesn't mean it's well run. The fact that some minion in the Office of Management and Budget which currently does not have a director can put out a memo that vaguely shuts down trillions of dollars of federal funding in a moment without running it by anyone, is one of the most evocative examples of incompetence I've ever seen in my life. And then the fact that they put this memo out, it's not even like this was a bad idea. This was like a well executed bad idea. The memo was so vague, no one had any idea what it meant. It really shut the spigot off and caused mass chaos across the country. One memo written by, once again, an OMB nerd, which is what we always call them when we work with them. A nerd. Like a nerd deep in the ombre, sends out this memo, shuts down Medicaid funding, housing vouchers, everything, total disaster. Then the White House, instead of just being like, throw the OMB mini under the bus, all defends this. Stephen Miller, who did not sign off on it, went on CNN to defend it and they defended it up until the moment a judge took it away and Trump got upset about the bad press coverage and they rescinded the memo.

[Jon Favreau]

Not only Stephen Miller, who like works on the White House, but Republican politicians all over the country defended the man.

[Dan Pfeiffer]

Speaking through the House.

[Jon Favreau]

Glenn Youngkin, Governor of Virginia, was like, this is misinformation spread by the media and partizans and all these Democrats are, this is hysteria and blah, blah, blah. And then the, and then the White House is like, yeah, we take it back actually. But I do think that it is revealing about like the argument that Stephen Miller was making and Russ Vogt, who is going to run the Office of Management and Budget, the man who authored Project 2025. They believe that the President does have the power to control all federal spending and decide who gets what money, even though it is the job of Congress, according to the Constitution, to appropriate funding. And Donald Trump and Donald Trump's White House now believe that they have the power of the purse, not Congress, in contradiction to the Constitution, and that they get to just not spend money that they don't agree with that Congress has appropriated. So I do think that they are gearing up to eventually challenge the. This is, it's known as the Impoundment act, which just makes clear, because it was clear in the Constitution before that, but makes clear that presidents may be able to delay spending certain money or they can maybe not spend extra money if they have achieved the goals of the law with the, with the money that they already spent, but they are not allowed Presidents are not allowed to just not spend money because it doesn't comport with their political positions. If Congress has passed a law appropriating it. And Stephen Miller and Russ Vogt don't think that's. They just. They think that the President is king and gets to do whatever he wants with his power. And so it's going to go. They're going to eventually challenge this and it's going to go to the Supreme Court.

[Dan Pfeiffer]

I mean, that's fine. They work for the king. So maybe that's less surprising.

[Jon Favreau]

Right?

[Dan Pfeiffer]

The person who should. Who is more surprising, alarming than this is Mike Johnson, the Speaker of the House. The power of the purse is their singular power. It is the greatest check and balance they have over the functioning of the executive branches. How they control, dictate policy, have influence on what happens. And Trump is like, no. And he's like, okay, more please, sir. It's just absolutely embarrassing.

[Jon Favreau]

They have all decided, except for, I don't know, maybe three Republican senators, at most four. And I haven't seen anything from any House members that Donald Trump, because he was elected, he can do whatever he wants. And that their role is just to cheer him on and go on tv, I guess, on all their favorite regime media channels and talk about how wonderful Dear Leader is. I don't. Why do these people want their jobs? Just go make money somewhere. You probably make more money in the private sector. What are you doing? You're not making any decisions on your own. You're just there to, like, fluff Donald Trump.

[Dan Pfeiffer]

I mean, that's a. It's an image or painting.

[Jon Favreau]

Yes, it's, you know, Chuck Schumer.

[Dan Pfeiffer]

Jason, your head. Chuck Schumer going. Yeah, yeah, Chuck Schumer's got you going.

[Jon Favreau]

Unfortunately, unfortunately.

[Jason]

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[Jon Favreau]

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[Tommy Vietor]

This podcast is supported by Comedy Central's Emmy Award winning series the Daily Show. Jon Stewart and the Daily show news team are kicking off 2025 with brand new episodes covering a brand new administration and a not quite brand new president. While it may feel like we've all been here before, it's never been covered like this, with Jon Stewart behind the desk kicking off every week. Comedy Central's the Daily show new weeknights at 11 on Comedy Central and streaming next day on Paramount.

[Jon Favreau]

Plus so let's start with the Democrats. Now that we're back on Chuck Schumer's arousal, the Times had a story on Wednesday about how Democratic governors got on a call with Schumer to push him and the Democratic caucus to do more to oppose Trump and his Cabinet nominees. More about them in a minute because, you know, things like the spending freeze are pummeling the states, but the governors themselves can't really take action to stop it. Presumably the details of the call were leaked, presumably by the governors or their staff to the New York Times reporter Reid Epstein. What do you make of this piece? The blame shifting and just zooming out, sort of like the Democratic response in general. And you know, it does appear like the party has found its footing on their response to the to the OMB spending freeze.

[Dan Pfeiffer]

I mean, basically, I think Reid Epstein got a window into a lot of the conversations that are happening in the Democratic Party right now. There has been, particularly in the at least the first week of the Trump presidency, a tremendous amount of frustration at how elected Democrats more generally, but congressional Democrats in particular have acted. I have ranted, I believe, on this podcast and in multiple other forums on the Internet about Democrats voting for Trump nominees. Like to what end like what? Like, what do you think the upside of that is? Why would you, why would you want to put your name, like, do you really want to be. Have endorsed Sean Duffy? Like, is that really what you want?

[Jon Favreau]

And just like, is that an ad you're going to run in your race about your bipartisan credentials? I did support. I did support Sean Duffy.

[Dan Pfeiffer]

No one or Scott or the hedge fund, the billionaire hedge fund manager who's going to help implement the Trump tariffs. Like, is that just, like, what's the upside? Right. What's the argument for it? And just this, like, some of it is unfair in the sense that there's nothing Chuck Schumer and the Senate Democrats could do to stop any of these appointments from happening. No Senate Democrat voted for Pete Hegseth. Right? No Democrat's been the 50th vote for one of these people. Like, that has not happened. They've just voted. I don't understand the votes, but they've been in places where there were enough Republicans that put him over the top, so it didn't really matter. I mean, they have very limited legislative authority to stop stuff. But there is this, just this frustration that there's just been too much silence and too much equivocation from Democrats in their messaging where it's like, we just can't figure out, like, the right way to talk about Trump. Because before it seemed easy to us because we felt like we had all the political high ground because even if we lost the presidency in 2016, we had the majority of voters were anti Trump. Now the polarity of voters pick Trump and we're just like, everything is on one hand we disagree with Trump. On the other hand, we also agree the borders should be secure. Right. It's just there's all this equivocation in the response that federal funding freeze, Democrats did better, right? They got louder, they spoke more strongly. They spoke with one voice. Now, I don't think we should break our arm patting ourselves on the back over it, but I think you should get credit. It was better than it had been today. And I think if there's a lesson to take from, is that the things that Democrats were saying about the federal funding freeze was not our typical pay on to institutions. That sort of sounds like something on the cutting room floor from Hamilton, but instead we just talked about how people were getting hurt.

[Jon Favreau]

Right?

[Dan Pfeiffer]

This program in my district can't get money. These people can't pay their rent. This Head Start program is closed, and parents don't ever take their kids because of this. It's Just very simple, granular, real world impacts on real humans. And I think there is a lesson in that going forward that with more of that and less of the stem winders about democracy.

[Jon Favreau]

And just, I think a good lesson too is like just say what you feel, just go to the mic, get to your favorite platform, all the platforms, whatever, and just say how you feel about this. And there was plenty of things I heard Democrats say over the last couple days about it that were cheesy or made me cringe. I'm not gonna criticize any of it because it is more important to get out there and talk quickly and show some emotion, show some anger over this on behalf of the people that you represent. Not just anger at Trump, but anger on behalf of people who are getting screwed by Trump. I think that's an important distinction. And just do it. And sometimes it's gonna hit, sometimes it's not. Sometimes you're gonna say things that resonate, sometimes you're gonna say things that make people cringe. It's okay, like this is going to be, it's going to long four years. But I think just getting out there and talking and doing, you always say, like everything everywhere, all at once, like that is better than sitting and waiting and thinking about how's this going to poll and what should I say? And we need a caucus meeting first and we need to just, just go out there, go out there and talk.

[Dan Pfeiffer]

This is, this is a really important point because I think one thing that held Democrats back is we, we're waiting for the message. We don't know what it is. We haven't analyzed all of the results yet. We haven't done a bunch of exit polls or focus groups with first time Trump voters or whatever else. And it's just, and people are, we're flummoxed.

[Jon Favreau]

We're all gonna fucking die waiting for the catalyst results.

[Dan Pfeiffer]

I mean, they're supposed to come in like six weeks, so I hope not. But it's just the election shook Democrats to their core. Like what we thought worked, did not work in any way, shape or form and blew up in our face. And so they're waiting for the right thing to say. But if there is one lesson of the Trump era is that volume and frequency is much more important than precision when it comes to messaging. You just get out there and start talking.

[Jon Favreau]

That, by the way, because that's the game he's playing.

[Dan Pfeiffer]

It is just, just talk all the time. Because if you're talking all the time, it increases the number of chances that someone will Actually hear what you're saying. And if you happen to fuck up and say the wrong thing, if you're out there five minutes later, you're gonna pay less of a price for it. This is one of the things that really hurt Kamala Harris was she was out there so much less than Trump. So when she did make a mistake like she did on the View, it haunted her in ways. Trump was out there saying crazy shit on a podcast three times a day. But because he was doing it, there was always a new thing coming after it. There was less political consequences for doing it.

[Jon Favreau]

Same problem with Biden over the last four years.

[Dan Pfeiffer]

I mean, let's not like, if you.

[Jon Favreau]

Speak every six months, like, yeah, right, right. But yeah, no, it is a volume game. And just someone added this up. But apparently, like, in Trump's first term, in his first week, he was in front of the press or in front of cameras speaking for like four hours the first week. Biden in his first week was a little less, maybe like three hours or something. The first week of Trump's second term, it was like eight hours he was in front of camera. I mean, even, like, he did that fucking awful press conference about the plane crash this morning, Thursday morning, and he did, like, another press avail as he was signing the more executive orders blaming Biden and Obama for the plane crash later in the day. And he was taking more questions for.

[Dan Pfeiffer]

Even as nuts as Trump was in 2017, that he was still abiding sort of by a what is now an anachronistic model of political communications where you try to stage manage stuff.

[Jon Favreau]

Right?

[Dan Pfeiffer]

We're going to have, like, this is the story of the day. If we do X, we can't do Y later because it'll ruin our headlines about our eos. It's like, nope, just do it all. It's always happening. It's never ending. There is no news cycle. And Democrats could learn some lessons that, like, we obviously have a huge megaphone disparity here, like, we don't have. We have a very small handful of politicians who can get real attention. It's great if we can all speak with one voice, because that will help about one thing, but that's not gonna happen every time. So just get out there. Yep.

[Jon Favreau]

Yeah. So the spending freeze fiasco has done little to slow Trump down. Keeps signing orders and memos targeting immigrants, government workers, trans kids, educators, parents, just about everyone. In the past few days, he's issued the following. Executive orders that will deny federal funding for schools that teach kids about racism and discrimination. Penalize schools that don't teach content that is patriotic enough. I guess Trump gets to define what that means. An executive order that will deport international students who protested the war in Gaza, will revoke their visas, ban gender affirming care for trans children, and send tens of thousands of undocumented immigrants to detention facilities at Guantanamo Bay. The White House also sent a mass email offering more than 2 million federal employees a buyout if they just reply to the email and write the word resign. We're gonna talk about the email in a second. But on the executive orders, which one of these seems real? Which of them seem like bullshit?

[Dan Pfeiffer]

Most of them are bullshit in the traditional sense of the President having the authority to implement what he said he is going to do. Right. Across the board, just not just what you mentioned here, across the board, most of these executive orders, they're not even really executive orders. They're really presidential memorandums. They're just. They're missives, right? They are press releases with signatures. He doesn't have the authority to do the things he's saying. There's no legal precedent for him from somewhere very clearly in violation of the Constitution. I mean, will hopefully be struck down, but who knows? But they're just there. There is not a ton of actual legal power in it. But I think that really undersells the danger here. Right. So let's take the example of the ones in education trying to deal with, you know, quote, unquote, critical race theory or forcing patriotic education. The federal government has almost no role in what local schools teach. Even if they were to use federal funding to try to put those, put policies in place, that's very limited. 90% of school funding comes from state and local communities. Even in the states where they have actually passed laws putting some of this stuff into place, studies have shown that they've had very little impact on, in many cases, or have not been as impactful as the conservative legislators would think, because teachers still. There's not someone in the school telling teachers what to do. But there is a chilling effect of these sternly worded but very vague missives declaring that things are now illegal or not allowed or if you do them, there will be retribution. Right. Like, for example, Michigan State University this week canceled their Lunar New Year celebration because they thought it, according to reporting from this in the Lansing Journal, that it might violate DEI policy. Anti DEI policies.

[Chris Murphy]

Right.

[Dan Pfeiffer]

And it's because they're confused. They don't know, here's this thing. We have no idea what it actually means. Are we going to get ourselves in trouble. Are we going to face political blowback? Could there be a big fight over this? Could there be retribution from the government? And even if you. I'm sure that if the general counsel of the university looked at it and was like, obviously we would win this fight. You don't want the fight, you can't afford the fight financially time wise. And so you're going to see people making a lot of decisions to avoid getting on the wrong side of Trump on some of these things. And I think about here in California, like up where I live, the public schools, every fall do Ruby Bridges Day to celebrate Ruby Bridges and to teach about segregation and desegregating the schools. And everyone, if you can, is to walk to school that day like Ruby Bridges did. Like, I don't think this would happen here, but you could see in another part of the country people wondering whether that was too woke to have right? Is Black History Month gonna be too woke? Are people gonna trim some of that stuff back because they're worried about violating, angering a federal government? Even the federal government has no statutory authority to enforce these policies on you.

[Jon Favreau]

Yeah. And just another example that just popped up that I think is even more consequential, which is the EO on banning gender affirming care for children. Again, that is not something that you can do by executive order. I'm fairly certain, though I do not have a legal degree, but a children's hospital and healthcare provider in Richmond just said that they have suspended all gender affirming care for those under 19 years old because they feel like they have gotten very specific guidance on this from the state. I assume that means that a lot of these Republican governors who, like Trump, like Glenn Youngkin in Virginia, probably see the federal EO match it with a state eo. Now, what's ultimately gonna happen with gender affirming care for children, it's a case at the Supreme Court right now, so it's gonna be decided there. I don't have a lot of hope about how that's gonna turn out. Also Congress, with the Republican Congress, I'm sure they're gonna try to include. There's been some reporting that they might include, like a Hyde, like, amendment in the budget bill that sort of, you know, threatens to cut off all federal aid to hospitals and healthcare providers that provide gender affirming care like they currently do for hospitals that provide abortions. That's the Hyde amendment. So I don't think that, like, I don't think that's the last word here, but you're right. That the chilling effect is there's going to be schools and hospitals and organizations all across the country in red states and in maybe and in some blue states or red areas of blue states that just take these seriously because it's a fucking executive order from the federal government on Guantanamo. Are we really going to build a 30,000 person detention facility in Guantanamo Bay? Just for context, the Cook County Jail in Chicago is one of the largest single site facilities in the country and it has an average daily population of 9,000. We're going to build a 30,000 person detention facility that who's going to run? And we're just going to send. We're just going to send undocumented immigrants. Don't know where, where they're from, where they came from. We're just going to put them in a detention center for what, indefinitely? Like what the fuck that we would.

[Dan Pfeiffer]

Hold migrants in one of the most notorious prisons in the world. Right. Something that has been at Guantanamo Bay has been a recruiting tool for terrorists for 20 years now, and I assume would be run by the military because Guantanamo is a military base. So you would have a military run prison camp for migrants who came to America. I know Tom Holman said this is the worst of the worst.

[Jon Favreau]

Which, which by the way, you know, they've been saying that we thought it was going to be bullshit. It is bullshit. I think the, the rate for how many undocumented immigrants have been rounded up and deported with criminal records versus undocumented immigrants who the only law they broke was illegally crossing in the first place is like, like Joe Biden had a higher percentage of deportations that were actually immigrants with criminal records than Trump has in his first week already. So it's just the whole thing was bullshit. They're not just going after undocumented immigrants with criminal records. They're going after every undocumented immigrant that they find.

[Dan Pfeiffer]

I mean, this is something that Tommy and Ben can talk about much better than I could, at least is. It's not like the US reputation's doing fucking great right now with Donald Trump as our president. Both what is our role and what has happened in Gaza has been deeply damaging to our reputation around the world. But the idea that we're going to house migrants in a prison camp is one of the. Like I said, a notorious prison camp is gonna be deeply, deeply damaging to our reputation around the world also.

[Jon Favreau]

This just like happened this week in a speech that Donald Trump gave and no one paid a lot of attention to it. But after he finished his whole Anti immigrant thing. He was like, and then there's some people and maybe they didn't come here illegally, but they're just, you know, criminals in this country, America, there's criminals and they're here and they're really bad criminals. And you know what? I think we're gonna get approval to just deport them. We're gonna, we're gonna send them to some other foreign countries. And I'm like, you're gonna send American citizens who are convicted of crimes to do. You're gonna deport them to foreign countries? Like, are we gonna send. Now we're gonna, like, when is the line that he's gonna start trying to send Americans to Guantanamo Bay? American citizens to Guantanamo Bay. Like, what.

[Dan Pfeiffer]

Are there any particular American citizens that you were been worried about over in recent years of being sent to Guantanamo Bay?

[Jon Favreau]

I mean.

[Dan Pfeiffer]

I mean the thing is it has been a running joke for nearly a decade among about us about being sent to Guantanamo, about, you know, various people who have been a Trump opponent being sent to Guantanamo. And they're building now this would be interesting. Like you would think, like you're gonna need money to build a lot of money to build the largest prison under American control at a military base. I presume you'd probably have to appropriate money for that. Maybe they can find it in the couch cushions the way they found money for the wall. But there'd be a, there will likely be a big congressional debate about this.

[Jon Favreau]

Be a big congressional debate. The courts will have a role as well. And look, I think that the, the scary moment here is what happens when the Supreme Court, if the Supreme Court, you know, hands down a decision that Trump is opposed to and what Trump does and you know, so far they, you know, the White House complied with the federal judge that blocked their spending freeze. And you know, I guess it was kind of a fuck up in OMB anyway, so whatever, they were fine with it. But you know, it's a very conservative court and a lot of times they give Trump exactly what he wants, but they hand down a decision that he opposes and then he says, eh, not going to listen to the court. You know, JD Vance was on a fucking podcast a couple years ago that told said, oh, my advice for Trump in a second term would be to fire everyone in the federal government and replace them with all your people. And when John Roberts tells you you can't do it, you say, yeah, you and what army JD Vance is on, on the record saying that. So like what happens that that's the real constitutional crisis. That's when. That's when people start going to Guantanamo. So that's something to watch for that coming attraction. Stan Cool.

[Dan Pfeiffer]

Cool.

[Jon Favreau]

Okay, we're going to take a quick break, but two things before we do that. We all know the news is exceptionally shitty right now, but we really hope you find this show and all the shows we make here at Crooked helpful in sorting the facts from the bullshit and maybe just staying a bit more sane. The best way to support our work is to subscribe to Friends of the pod. You'll directly support our growth as an independent media company. You'll get ad free episodes of POD Save America and POD Save the World, access to our wonderful Discord community and exclusive shows, all while supporting our mission. If you're listening on Apple Podcasts, just open the app tap subscribe from the POD Save America or POD Save the World feed and start your seven day free trial. Also, in an ongoing effort to help folks who have been devastated by the fires here in Los Angeles, we just launched Friend of Los Angeles Merch in the crooked store with 100% of the proceeds going to vote Save America's Action wildfire relief Fund. You can show off your LA pride while supporting organizations like the LA Regional Food bank, the Los Angeles Fire Department foundation and Latino Community Foundation. You can shop [e-mail] store or you can donate directly to the fund at votesave america.com relief.

[Lovett]

This podcast is sponsored by Squarespace. Squarespace is the all in one website platform for entrepreneurs to stand out and succeed online. Whether you're just starting out or managing a growing brand, Squarespace makes it easy to create a beautiful website, engage with your audience and sell anything from from products to content to time. All in one place. All on your terms. Introducing Design Intelligence from Squarespace Combining two decades of industry leading design expertise with cutting edge AI technology to unlock your strongest creative potential, Design Intelligence empowers anyone to build a beautiful, more personal website tailored to their unique needs and craft a bespoke digital identity to use across one's entire online presence. Squarespace Payments is the easiest way to manage your payments in one place. With Squarespace, onboarding is fast and simple. Get started in just a few clicks and start receiving payments right away. Plus give your customers more ways to pay with popular payment methods like Klarna, ACH Direct Debit, Apple Pay, afterpay and Clearpay. Took me three tries to get that connect major social and multimedia accounts to your website with a few clicks and its icons, direct links or embedded feeds. Build visitor trust while updating content only where you need it. Extend your brand's footprint. Sellers can also sync their product catalog directly with Instagram, Facebook, YouTube and Google to reach more customers and reduce the steps. For a purchase, head to squarespace.com for a free trial and when you're ready to Launch, go to squarespace.com crooked to save 10% off your first purchase of a website or domain. That's squarespace.com crooked this podcast is supported.

[Tommy Vietor]

By Comedy Central's Emmy Award winning series the Daily Show. Jon Stewart and the Daily show news team are kicking off 2025 with brand new episodes covering a brand new administration and a not quite brand new president. While it may feel like we've all been here before, it's never been covered like this with Jon Stewart behind the desk kicking off every week, Comedy Central's the Daily show new weeknights at 11 on Comedy Central and streaming next day on Paramount. Plus.

[Jon Favreau]

Let'S start with the buyout. The email had the subject line fork in the road, which was exactly what the email that Elon Musk sent to Twitter employees had said, fork in the road, right after he took over the company. Do you have a sense of whether this move is serious, whether the federal government is authorized to spend money on a buyout for federal employees who decide not to come back to the federal government to work?

[Dan Pfeiffer]

I have no idea whether they are technically authorized to do it, but I imagine this is quite serious. This is, as you point out, this is exactly what Elon Musk did at Twitter. He has installed some of his closest allies, people who helped him with all of the layoffs at Twitter, at the Office of Personnel Management, which is an obscure but incredibly powerful agency which staffs the government, I imagine that there probably is some sort of authority that allows you to, because these people are choosing by doing this, they were not firing them, right? This is a way to get around civil service protections, right? You are not firing them. You are giving them the opportunity to leave. Now. Judd Legum, in his newsletter of popular information, has pointed out he's read the actual missive that the OPM posted on their website and it's not actually a buyout. A buyout is you take the money for the next nine months and you stop working tomorrow. What they are saying is basically you leave in September and your job duties will change, but you're not free of working. You might still work. There's a lot of gray area into what would happen. You'd be free of some in person responsibilities. But it is incorrect. In Jud's view and he makes a very compelling case. This is a buyout. It's actually just a way to get people to forcible resignation or encourage resignation.

[Jon Favreau]

Well, there's also video uncovered of Russ VOGT Again, Project 2025 guy who's going to be the OMB director who basically said we want to make working in the federal government as traumatic as possible for bureaucrats that we want to get rid of. So this is, and clearly that's what they've been trying to do the last couple of weeks is to try to make it so miserable for people that they just leave on their own.

[Dan Pfeiffer]

And I think it is just the reason why we should take this very seriously, regardless of what they're the specific powers they may have is this is the full conservative project of decades now, which is to hollow out the federal government so it can do less stuff then on the things it continues to do. It does them less well, which makes the public more dissatisfied with government, which causes them to elect more anti government politicians who then hollow out the government some more. Rinse, repeat. And the end goal of this is not just though that the government's doing less in health care and education is what these hardcore conservatives who are not just Trump types, these are Paul Ryan people, is they are going after Social Security and Medicare. What they do not want is the federal government to be giving people health care and retirement security. And those are sacrosanct programs. Trump voters love them. The only way you ever get to be able to take those down is, is to reduce people's faith in government to such an extent that they're unwilling to trust it with their health care and their retirement security. And so this is, this is what this project is.

[Jon Favreau]

Yeah. Yep. And Social Security and Medicare probably come at the end, you know.

[Dan Pfeiffer]

Yeah, that's the last thing you get. You, you make it so that everything else is hated. They can do nothing else. Well, that people are willing to say put my retirement in the stock market. Right. Or privatize my Medicare to insurance companies.

[Jon Favreau]

And by the way, I think this is part of the reason that they walked back the spending freeze because it caused the kind of uproar around the country that they know is unpopular and they want to cut government and cut all those programs and benefits in a much sneakier, quieter way than what happened with like an all out spending freeze that freaked everybody out. So it is, it's something to watch. Speaking of way too much going on at once, three of Trump's most extreme cabinet picks had Senate confirmation hearings on Thursday Alone. Health and Human services secretary nominee RFK Jr. In front of the health committee, DNI nominee Tulsi Gabbard in front of the Intelligence Committee, and FBI nominee Cash Patel in front of the Judiciary Committee. Let's start with Kennedy. This was actually his second hearing. The Finance Committee got its turn on Wednesday, and both days were contentious and fairly terrifying. Here's a sampling of some of the Q and A for RFK Jr you.

[Ben Rhodes]

Made some great accusations.

[Chris Murphy]

Pedophilia to the administer to the administration of vaccines.

[Ben Rhodes]

No, it wasn't pedophilia.

[Chris Murphy]

So it was a perfect metaphor.

[Ben Rhodes]

Well, if you have 1 in 36 kids who has neurological injuries and if that is, you know, linked, that's something we should study.

[Chris Murphy]

Is it a perfect metaphor?

[Ben Rhodes]

It's not a perfect metaphor, but there's no metaphor that's perfect. But I am pro vaccine. Vaccines do not cause autism. Do you agree with that? As I said, I'm not going to go into HHS with any preordained. I asked you a simple question, Bobby. Senator, I agree with President Trump that every abortion is a tragedy, that we can't be a moral authority in this country.

[Jon Favreau]

Right. So.

[Ben Rhodes]

But that isn't what you said back.

[Dan Pfeiffer]

In New Hampshire in 2023.

[Ben Rhodes]

My question is exactly when did you decide to sell out your life's work and values to get this position? Senator, I agree with President Trump that every abortion is a tragedy. Show me a single statement I made about science that is erroneous.

[Dan Pfeiffer]

How much time do you have?

[Jon Favreau]

One.

[Dan Pfeiffer]

Yeah.

[Jon Favreau]

So basically these two days boil down to Democrats trying to paint Kennedy as anti vax and also unqualified, which he is. Kennedy's trying to say, no, not anti vax. I never was. I'm being misconstrued. Who do you think came out on top? And are we getting a. We're getting a vaccines optional HHS secretary.

[Dan Pfeiffer]

That seems like, I mean, if we just got a Fox Weekend host as our Secretary of Defense and everything's on the table here. I don't know. I don't know what's going to happen here. I think there was one. Yes. Democrats focus a lot on the vaccines. That is the MO that is RFKJR's Achilles heel politically, with the public. Like that is the part of him that they are most skeptical of that they do not like. But I thought some of the smartest questioning came from Michael Bennett in the first day in the Finance Committee. Michael Bennett, the senator from Colorado, he did this the right way. He did a lightning round basically with RFK Jr. Murray asked him, he read him quotes and he read them in context and said, did you say this or did you not say this? And it was some of the things we've heard about vaccines, about various conspiracy theories. But the last one he asked was, do you believe that basically, do you believe a pro abortion excess comment of his? And the reason why that was smart is that's how you defeat RFK Jr is you have to get some. The only way to actually defeat him. There are ways to score political points with the public, but to actually defeat him, you need to get a Republican, you need to get four Republicans to vote against him. And one area of concern, and this is a weird thing to say, Mike Pence's political organization is running ads attacking RF, trying to get Republicans to oppose RFK Jr because he has been in favor of abortion access prior to becoming Trump's buddy here. So, like, that's a way that, that is a smart way to do it. Was he getting confirmed? Probably, but I thought that was, that at least showed a savvy way to try to actually get some Republican votes or make it more uncomfortable for Republicans to do it with their constituents, which is going to matter more than making him uncomfortable, than just getting more Democrats who are already opposed and riled up.

[Jon Favreau]

Well, I thought some bad news on that front was he basically said that he would look at the safety of mifepristone, the abortion pill. And so that's on the table. And then after the hearings, the Susan B. Anthony group, which is an anti abortion group, said that they now favor RFK Jr. Because they think he's gonna help them pull mifepristone off the market and ban the abortion pill. So that is pretty, pretty frightening.

[Dan Pfeiffer]

Yeah, it's not good if he gets confirmed. I was just trying to find a bright spot for Democrats trying to keep him from getting confirmed.

[Jon Favreau]

My only bright spot, we'll see what happens is Bill Cassidy, the senator from Louisiana, Republican senator from Louisiana, who's a doctor and who voted to impeach Trump. Add some really tough questioning about RFK jr's anti vaccine stances and positions and what he said and basically ended the hearing, leaving it up in the air whether or not he was going to vote for him.

[Dan Pfeiffer]

I mean, he's, he's theoretically potentially the fourth because we know there's three possibles and Murkowski, Collins and McConnell. Although not that I have any evidence that particularly McConnell.

[Jon Favreau]

I know this thing is like. But also you could see Cassidy be a no. But then like, maybe McConnell doesn't vote no on this one. Right. So it's like. It's tough to figure out. It's not like those are automatic nos at all, you know, so. But I guess Cassidy would be the hope there. We're not going to subject you to separate sections on Tulsi Gabbard and Cash Patel. Reminder here, if you need them. Gabbard is an Assad and Putin sympathizer with no intelligence experience. And Patel is a Trump adoring hatchet man with no FBI experience. Both hearings were pretty tense. Let's take a listen.

[Ben Rhodes]

Scabbard.

[Jon Favreau]

A simple yes or no question.

[Ben Rhodes]

Do you still think Edward Snowden is brave?

[Jon Favreau]

Mr. Vice Chairman, Edward Snowden broke the law. I do not agree with or support with all of the information and intelligence that he released, nor the way in which he did it.

[Dan Pfeiffer]

My understanding is that the performers on.

[Ben Rhodes]

This J6 choir were the rioters who were in prison. I'm not aware of that, sir. I didn't have anything to do with the recording.

[Jon Favreau]

You.

[Dan Pfeiffer]

You weren't aware of who made the recording?

[Ben Rhodes]

No. Senator, your boss has said that General Milley, who served us with great distinction, I happen to have great admiration for. Should be tried for treason. Do you agree with that, Senator, Everybody's entitled to their opinion. Who put away The Unabomber? The FBI. Who put away Timothy McVeigh and his. His Stalin's stomach for blood break? Agents at the FBI who helped investigate Jussie Smollett. What?

[Jon Favreau]

How did he get in there?

[Ben Rhodes]

Self aggrandizement set back the fight for minority rights for years. I think that was local authorities. It was the FBI to open an investigation, wasn't it?

[Dan Pfeiffer]

That was.

[Jon Favreau]

I hadn't heard that.

[Dan Pfeiffer]

That was quite the turn that I was not expecting.

[Jon Favreau]

Yeah.

[Dan Pfeiffer]

What was the point he was trying to make even up until that point?

[Jon Favreau]

I guess that the FBI is great, man. Sure, sure. I don't know. So Kash Patel has just decided, like the old Kash Patel is just gone. He's gone. I don't know what you're talking about. I don't know this guy. I didn't go on this podcast with all these white nationalist racists with, you know, Nazi sympathizing views. Didn't do any of that. Never heard of that person. Jan Six Choir. I don't know what you're talking about. He also. He broke with Trump on the January Six pardons for the violent offenders, the people who were there for. He's. I just disagree with that. And he was very much like, you know, no retribution, not going to be looking backwards. So that's Cash Patel. I guess he's. I guess he's getting through.

[Dan Pfeiffer]

It seems. It seems that way. He, I mean all the reporting has been. He has really assuaged a lot of the very obvious concerns about him with.

[Jon Favreau]

Republicans now by just lying and just pretending or just saying like. Yeah, that was just. I was just saying some crazy on podcast, which I guess, I guess if, if we're ever confirmed we can say that too, huh?

[Dan Pfeiffer]

Where there's not a chance that either of us are ever seeking.

[Jon Favreau]

Let me just play. Let me just play something you responded to from John Lovett.

[Dan Pfeiffer]

Oh, no, not the pundi's 2018.

[Jon Favreau]

No, just be like, I don't know any of those people. I don't know. The San Francisco live show sounds like my voice. Not my voice.

[Dan Pfeiffer]

People mix our voices up all the time. So they just say, that was Tommy.

[Jon Favreau]

Yeah. So Cash Patel, FBI. Great.

[Dan Pfeiffer]

Seems like that's happening. I mean the fact that one of like whenever you're doing the list of people who are possible no votes, Thom Tillis would be on that list because he is a senator who has to run for reelection, has had moments of sanity in his brief career. But he introduced Cash Patel, so it seems like we're not going to get him.

[Jon Favreau]

And then I guess Tulsi Gabbard then is the one who's in most jeopardy. Yeah, because she wasn't mean enough to Edward Snowden.

[Dan Pfeiffer]

Actually, John, you know what the most fucked up thing is, is the person in the most jeopardy may actually be his nominee for Secretary of Labor. Because she wants endorsed the pro act.

[Jon Favreau]

Oh God.

[Dan Pfeiffer]

She was the, the person who picked Secretary of Labor.

[Jon Favreau]

Yeah, she's actually, she's actually not even like okay enough for Trump. Like, she's actually a decent, like, like any Republican president who nominated her Democrats would be like, wow, that's pretty cool.

[Dan Pfeiffer]

On one specific issue, right?

[Jon Favreau]

Well, no, just she's for, she's. She's pretty pro labor as the next labor.

[Dan Pfeiffer]

Yes. So there are a lot of Democrats who didn't endorse the pro act, so.

[Jon Favreau]

Right, yeah, exactly. Exactly.

[Dan Pfeiffer]

So she's in the most danger. It was, I'm not entirely sure the strategy of focusing most of our ire on Tulsi Gabbard on the Edward Snowden trader thing.

[Jon Favreau]

I don't, I don't get that either. I don't get that either.

[Dan Pfeiffer]

I mean, I understand why that is.

[Jon Favreau]

Plenty of targets there for Tulsi Gabbard.

[Dan Pfeiffer]

I mean, obviously it's the Intel Committee. This is like they are very closely aligned with the intel community and who obviously have very strong feelings about what Edward Snowden did to them. But it's just from a public perspective or even trying to peel off Republicans, it seems like. I'd be curious to know what the reasoning was because there were smart people who were making that case and I was surprised by it.

[Jon Favreau]

Yeah. So. Well, and those are all the most controversial picks. I think Pam Bondi is also getting three, which is fucking.

[Dan Pfeiffer]

She did. She made it through committee on party line vote.

[Jon Favreau]

Wonderful. Wonderful. Well, we'll see. We'll see if we'll see if we.

[Dan Pfeiffer]

Can take down the pro labor labor secretary.

[Jon Favreau]

One last thing before we go. So right before this recording, I interviewed Chris Murphy, Senator Chris Murphy from Connecticut for Offline, which will be out this Sunday. It's a great interview. He wanted to talk about big tech and regulation. He's been talking a lot about social media and loneliness and all the topics we love discussing on Offline. But because I had him for the interview at the top, I asked him all about these last two weeks and how they were responding and how Democrats were responding. He's someone who has not been afraid to be out there being very forceful sounding the alarm. And so I asked him about all that and I thought his answers were interesting enough that wanted to play it here on Pod Save America as a preview of of Sunday's Offline episode. So you'll be hearing that right now. Do you think some of the reticence about speaking up has to do with the fact that some of your colleagues are just personally afraid? Like, do you sense any fear among your either your Democratic colleagues or even the Republican colleagues?

[Chris Murphy]

Listen, that is not a conversation that we have out loud. But I don't know how what has happened in the last week doesn't have an impact. I haven't shared this yet, but it is just true. My office has received phone calls and threats that are different than anything we had received prior to the pardoning of the January 6th protesters. We have had to have very different conversations internally about how we protect me, my family and my staff. I assume other offices are getting those calls. I assume those calls are reaching other Democratic activists who speak up online all around the country. And whether or not that reaches the level of consciousness, I don't know. But when your family is threatened with harm, of course it may at the very least subconsciously depression your interest in fighting as hard as you can. And you know, given the fact that Elon Musk can, can sort of rouse those people with one or two or three tweets. It probably also has to do with why there hasn't been a concentrated effort to take him on personally, because folks don't want to end up, as I have been and many others on the receiving end of sort of his social media storms, because what comes with that is an implicit threat of violence.

[Jon Favreau]

Those threats do not seem to have slowed you down. How are you personally sort of handling that?

[Chris Murphy]

Well, I just, you know, feel like I have a unique responsibility. I mean, I'm one of 47 Democratic senators. I. I'm going to take some precautions to make sure that me and my family and my staff are protected. But if I mute my voice, then all is lost. And, yes, I don't completely understand why everybody isn't fighting as hard as some of us have been. So I feel like my role right now is to model a kind of vigorous, organic, authentic anger at what is happening, to hopefully inspire, inspire others to join.

[Jon Favreau]

Good for Chris Murphy, huh?

[Dan Pfeiffer]

Yeah, Chris Murphy's great.

[Jon Favreau]

First of all, terrifying that that's happening, that he's getting those threats and that other people are, and that then people are scared now of speaking out. But I'm glad he's out there and I'm glad he's not backing down. So. All right, that is our show for today, everyone. Have a great weekend because the news is so wonderful. And we'll be back in your feeds with a new show on Tuesday.

[Dan Pfeiffer]

Bye.

[Jon Favreau]

If you want to listen to Pod Save America ad free or get access to our subscriber discord and exclusive podcasts, consider joining our Friends of the pod [e-mail] friends or subscribe on Apple Podcasts directly from the Pod Save America feed. Also, be sure to follow Pod Save America on TikTok, Instagram, Twitter and YouTube for full episodes, bonus content and more. And before you hit that next button, you can help boost this episode by leaving us a review and by showing sharing it with friends and family. Pod Save America is a crooked media production. Our producers are David Toledo and Saul Rubin. Our associate producer is Farah Safari. Reed Cherlin is our executive editor and Adrienne Hill is our executive producer. The show is mixed and edited by Andrew Chadwick. Jordan Kanter is our sound engineer with audio support from Kyle Seglin and Charlotte Landis. Madelyn Herringer is our head of news and programming. Matt De Groat is our head of production. Naomi Single as our executive assistant. Thanks to our digital team. Elijah Cohn, Hayley Jones, Phoebe Bradford, Joseph Dutra, Ben Hefcoat, Mia Kelman, Molly Lobel, Kiril Pelaviev and David Toles. Our production staff is proudly unionized with the Writers Guild of America East. Ladies and gentlemen, we are now boarding Group A. Please have your boarding passes ready to scan. If your phone is cracked old or was chewed up by your Chihuahua travel companion, please refrain from holding up the line and instead simply go to Verizon and trade in any phone in any condition from one of their top brands for the new Samsung Galaxy S25 plus with Galaxy AI on Unlimited ultimate and a watch or tap also on them. Service plan required for watch or Tap. Trade in and additional terms apply. See verizon.com for details. Make your winter even sweeter with the joyfully chill sensation of my Mochi ice cream. My Mochi is deliciously creamy premium ice.

[Dan Pfeiffer]

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[Jon Favreau]

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[Dan Pfeiffer]

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[Jon Favreau]

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[Dan Pfeiffer]

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