Trump v. Musk: Choose Your Daddy

Summary

Pod Save America – "Trump v. Musk: Choose Your Daddy" (June 6, 2025)

In this riveting episode of Pod Save America, hosts Jon Favreau, Dan Pfeiffer, and Tommy Vietor dissect the explosive feud between former President Donald Trump and Elon Musk, exploring its profound implications for American politics, particularly within the Republican Party and upcoming legislative battles. Additionally, the episode delves into the newly released book "Original Sin" by Jake Tapper and Alex Thompson, which critically examines President Joe Biden's mental acuity and administrative effectiveness.

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1. The Genesis and Escalation of the Trump-Musk Feud

[00:26] Dan Pfeiffer:
The conflict ignited when Elon Musk publicly denounced Trump’s economic strategy, calling it a “massive, outrageous, pork-filled Congress spending bill.” Musk threatened to “fire all the politicians who support the bill in the 26 midterms.”

[04:17] Jake Tapper:
Trump eventually responded in an Oval Office interview, expressing disappointment in Musk’s shift and accusing him of deteriorating relations:
"Elon and I had a great relationship, but I'm very disappointed because Elon knew the inner workings of this bill better than almost anybody..."

[06:58] Dan Pfeiffer:
Elon Musk’s retaliation was swift and severe, with tweets like, “Without me, Trump would have lost the election.” This intensified the feud, leading Trump to accuse Musk of being involved in the Epstein files and calling for his impeachment.

Notable Quote:
"Without me, Trump would have lost the election." – Elon Musk ([06:58])

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2. Impact on the Republican Party and Legislative Processes

The feud has starkly illuminated the fractures within the Republican Party, dividing traditional MAGA conservatives and the tech-aligned faction represented by Musk.

[17:56] Tommy Vietor:
Musk’s aggressive stance complicates the passage of Trump’s $2.5 trillion spending bill by highlighting internal GOP rifts: "Musk is giving voice to two groups of people who voted for it in the House with deep reservations..."

Poll Insights:

• Hart Research Poll: Indicates the bill is 30 points underwater, making it one of the least popular pieces of legislation in recent history.
• Data for Progress Poll: Reveals that only about 4% of people are well-informed about the bill’s specifics.

[26:54] Dan Pfeiffer:
The bill’s unpopularity stems from its structure—tax cuts for the wealthy and corporations funded by cuts to Medicaid and other essential services: "It's a disgusting abomination... pays for that by kicking 15 million people off their health insurance."

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3. Strategies for Democrats to Counteract the Bill’s Unpopularity

Democrats are strategizing to leverage the bill’s low public support to halt its passage.

[28:29] Tommy Vietor:
Emphasizes the need for widespread awareness: "Everyone has to find the tallest mountain they can find the biggest megaphone they can find, text all the people, they can shout about it..."

[32:01] Dan Pfeiffer:
Advocates for a unified message against the bill: "We should call it a disgusting abomination, too... explain why we think it's a disgusting abomination."

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4. Trump’s Contention with Immigration Policies and Harvard’s International Students

Executive Orders Signed by Trump:

• Travel Ban Renewal: Reinstates bans on citizens from 12 countries, with partial restrictions on 7 others, citing national security concerns.
  Countries include Afghanistan, Iran, and Yemen.

• Harvard Ban: Prohibits Harvard from enrolling new international students, targeting national security and economic efficiency.

[42:53] Tommy Vietor:
Highlights the normalization of extreme immigration policies: "It's a dark and deeply depressing statement about where we've gone... people lose the ability to be outraged at things very worthy of that outrage."

Case Studies:

• Carol from Missouri: A woman from Hong Kong detained and then released after public outcry.
• Massachusetts Student: A high-achieving student from Brazil detained en route to volleyball practice, later allowed to stay.
• Bakersfield Child: A four-year-old girl from Mexico requiring life-saving care, now permitted to remain in the U.S.

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5. Insights from "Original Sin" – Evaluating President Biden's Mental Acuity

The episode features a deep dive into the book "Original Sin" by Jake Tapper and Alex Thompson, which posits significant concerns about President Biden’s cognitive abilities and leadership effectiveness.

[55:00] Alex Thompson:
Describes incidents suggesting cognitive decline: "Senator Michael Bennett from Colorado goes to the White House... Biden has some sort of neurological episode... how he handles portfolios and national security emergencies is questionable."

[73:32] Jon Favreau:
Reflects on public perception versus private concerns: "Even though Alex says at times it wasn’t clear, the relationship between Biden and his advisors suggested underlying issues with his ability to lead effectively."

[85:58] Dan Pfeiffer:
Expresses frustration with Biden’s inner circle for not addressing his capabilities: "The relationship between Biden and his advisors made it difficult to confront the reality of his declining abilities."

Notable Quote:
"I swear that it never affected any of those things that are signs of decline or aging never affected his decision making." – Biden Spokesperson ([55:43])

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6. The Republican Party’s Internal Struggles and Future of the MAGA Coalition

[19:13] Dan Pfeiffer:
Explores how the feud affects the MAGA coalition: "Trump's threats against Musk give Republicans ammunition to oppose the spending bill, deepening rifts within the party."

[24:58] Tommy Vietor:
Speculates on the future split within the party: "Tech-right voters might peel away from the MAGA coalition, targeting voters who were previously undecided or held back by party loyalty."

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7. Trump’s Continued Use of Executive Orders and Legal Maneuvering

[35:10] Dan Pfeiffer:
Trump’s orders to investigate Biden's aides and impose travel bans continue to stir controversy and legal challenges: "White House is not supposed to order the Justice Department to conduct investigations. This is unprecedented and chaotic."

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8. The Book’s Reception and Critical Feedback

[107:14] Alex Thompson:
Discusses backlash from both the right and Democrats: "Trump supporters on the right and Democrats alike have criticized Original Sin for its portrayal of Biden, leading to intense debates on political platforms."

[115:33] F:
Highlights the Democratic Party's resistance to acknowledging Biden’s issues: "Reporting is about holding up that mirror... and whether or not they look in is up to them."

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9. Closing Thoughts and Future Implications

[124:30] Jon Favreau:
Emphasizes the necessity of political engagement and accountability: "We need to stay awake and honest about the challenges the Democratic Party faces to prevent repeat political disasters."

[126:10] Dan Pfeiffer:
Reflects on the lack of effective challenge against Biden within the Democratic Party: "There was minimal discussion about potential challengers, indicating deep-seated issues within the party’s decision-making processes."

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Conclusion

In this episode, Pod Save America navigates the turbulent waters stirred by the feud between Trump and Musk, examining its disruptive effects on Republican unity and legislative endeavors. The discussion extends to the controversial insights presented in "Original Sin," questioning President Biden’s mental fitness and the Democratic Party's handling of internal dissent. The hosts advocate for heightened political awareness and proactive strategies to counteract unfavorable policies and leadership shortcomings, underscoring the critical need for informed and engaged citizenship in safeguarding democracy.

Notable Quotes Summary:

• “Without me, Trump would have lost the election.” – Elon Musk ([06:58])
• “This is the first real obstacle... shining a spotlight on the rift within the party.” – Tommy Vietor ([17:56])
• “It's a disgusting abomination... paying for that by kicking 15 million people off their health insurance.” – Dan Pfeiffer ([13:45])
• “We need to own up to that. This is our moment.” – Dan Pfeiffer ([26:46])

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This comprehensive summary encapsulates the essence of the episode, providing a clear and engaging overview for those who haven’t listened while preserving the depth and critical insights discussed by the hosts.

Transcript

[Jon Favreau]

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[Dan Pfeiffer]

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[Tommy Vietor]

From Mule packers to George Packers.

[Dan Pfeiffer]

Yeah.

[Jon Favreau]

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[Dan Pfeiffer]

You ever watch the news and think cool. Everything's on fire. What? Now we get it. That's why Crooked Media isn't just here to explain what's happening. We give you ways to actually do something about it. Real actions, real impact. We help our listeners get involved at the local level to build power. Flip Congress and take back the White House. You can be part of that work by subscribing to Friends of the Pod. The best way to support our mission of building a progressive media counterweight to the right. With your subscription, you'll unlock ad free episodes of Offline. Love it or leave it. Pod Save America and Pod Save the World. Plus exclusive shows like Polar Coaster with Dan Pfeiffer. You'll Also, get access to our Discord community, where you can connect with fellow listeners, talk politics, vent about the news, and feel a little less alone in all of it. Go to qriket.com friends to sign up. It helps us do the work and it might just help you stay sane. Welcome to Pod Save America. I'm Jon Favreau.

[Tommy Vietor]

I'm Dan Pfeiffer.

[Dan Pfeiffer]

We got a big show for you today. Later in the episode, you will hear the interview Lovett and I did at an event with Jake Tapper and Alex Thompson earlier this week about their book Original Sin. You might have heard of it, but we have so much news to cover before that. Trump signed a flurry of executive orders late Wednesday night. One that bans or restricts the citizens of 19 countries from entering the United States. One that bans all international students from attending Harvard, and one that orders an investigation into Joe Biden's former aides over potential actions to hide information regarding the former president's mental and physical health. We'll get to those executive orders, but let's start with the news. They seem designed to distract from Donald Trump's third divorce. This one from his campaign sugar daddy, his doge bag in chief, his dark MAGA brother from another mother, Elon Musk.

[Tommy Vietor]

Great job.

[Dan Pfeiffer]

So, you know, in case a lot has happened, Dan, and we're recording this Thursday afternoon. By the time you're all hearing this on Friday morning, who knows what else will have happened? But we'll just give you the quick rundown of how we got here. It all started a few days ago when Elon called Trump's economic plan a, quote, massive, outrageous, pork filled Congress spending bill. That's a, quote, disgusting abomination. He then threatened to, quote, fire all the politicians who support the bill in the 26 midterms. Trump was uncharacteristically quiet about this for about 48 hours until a reporter asked him about it in the Oval Office Thursday morning. And his response was, worth the wait.

[Jake Tapper]

Elon and I had a great relationship, but I'm very disappointed because Elon knew the inner workings of this bill better than almost anybody sitting here. And he only developed the problem when he found out that we're going to have to cut the EV mandate. And he never had a problem until right after he left. And he hasn't said bad about me personally, but I'm sure that'll be next. You saw a man who was very happy when he stood behind the Oval desk. And even with the black eye, I said, do you want a little Makeup, we'll get you. You didn't make up. But he said, no, I don't think so. Which is interesting. People leave my administration and they love us, and then at some point, they miss it so badly and some of them embrace it, and some of them actually become hostile. I don't know what it is. It's sort of Trump derangement syndrome, I guess they call it. But Elon endorsed me very strongly. He actually went up and campaigned for me. I think I would have won. Susie would say I would have won Pennsylvania easily anyway.

[Dan Pfeiffer]

So Trump. Trump correctly predicted that personal attacks would follow, as Elon has responded by unleashing a flurry of tweets. I think it's still going. I don't know. We had to record at some point, so who knows what's. What's happening now? But so far, the tweets have included, quote, without me, Trump would have lost the election. Quote, such ingratitude. And my personal favorite, which he directed towards Republican politicians. Trump has three and a half years left as president, but I will be around for 40 plus years. In response, Trump posted on Truth Social that he pushed Elon out of the White House because he was, quote, wearing thin and then threatened to terminate all of Elon's government contracts and subsidies. Not to be outdone, Elon then said, I guess this is my new personal favorite. I was gonna say, I clearly wrote that line before these tweets. All right. And then Elon said that the reason Trump hasn't released the Epstein files is because Trump is in the Epstein files. And then Elon called for his impeachment and to be replaced with JD Vance. So, Dan, it was just four months ago, it was February when Elon tweeted, I love Donald Trump as much as a straight man can love another man. Now they've broken up right in the middle of pride. And I am just wondering if you have thoughts on the state of male friendship in America. Men today don't have any close friends. This is the problem.

[Tommy Vietor]

It's a classic story. Two lonely love star people meet online. They bond quickly over shared passions like taking food and medicine away from the world's poorest people. They start spending every moment together. They become inseparable. Almost feels like their personalities merge. But John, they move too fast, too soon. And before, you know, blows up, maybe they moved in together too quickly blows up, things fall apart. Next thing you know, one of them is calling the other one a pedophile.

[Dan Pfeiffer]

And here we are, a pedophile that he says, you wouldn't have been president without me. Pedophile.

[Tommy Vietor]

I mean, by moving to impeachment, Elon Musk has moved More aggressively than 99% of House Democrats on Donald Trump. I mean, it is. It's wonderful. It is. Elon finally, after many years, has found a way to make Twitter fun again.

[Dan Pfeiffer]

Yeah, this was the best day on Twitter since he took it over. I think it's the best day in politics in 2025. That's what I've been.

[Tommy Vietor]

Oh. I mean, not even politics easily. Yeah.

[Dan Pfeiffer]

I mean, there's not a lot of great ones to choose from. But Elon also. Let's say he proposed a new political party. He said, why don't we have a new political party for the 80% of people in the middle? So I guess we're bringing back the Innovation Party.

[Tommy Vietor]

I don't think he was. That's a deep cut for those. For close readers of Axios, in 2017, you would know what that was.

[Dan Pfeiffer]

You know who you are. And he also hit Trump on tariffs. He, quote, tweeted someone saying, oh, can we admit the tariffs are stupid now? And Elon says, yeah, there'll be a recession. They're gonna cause a recession by the second quarter or by the second half of the year. Elon is just going nuts. He is just tweeting up a storm.

[Tommy Vietor]

This is. This was always the risk for Trump with the Elon partnership, and it's why Trump treads so carefully around Elon for so long, because Elon has a megaphone almost as large as Trump's, and he is very good at getting attention. And when he goes. He goes bananas. And that's where we are right now.

[Dan Pfeiffer]

He goes bananas. He certainly is today's pod Save America, brought to you by ketamine. That's neither here nor there.

[Tommy Vietor]

That's neither. Neither here nor there. That refers to nothing.

[Dan Pfeiffer]

That's just an ad break, if anyone was wondering.

[Tommy Vietor]

That's in reference to a New York Times story. That's for the lawyers out there.

[Dan Pfeiffer]

I think we all know the New York Times story, which I want to get to at some point, because I have a question for you. Before we get into the current implications of all of this, let's go back to Elon deciding to come out against the bill. Why do you think he turned on the bill and ultimately Trump? Was it because, as the White House and Mike Johnson and other Republicans are suggesting that the bill would eliminate tax credits for electric vehicles like Tesla's? Was it out of a genuine concern for the deficit and debt like Elon? Says was it something else.

[Tommy Vietor]

Trying to make sense of Elon Musk's brain. It's quite a challenging mission you've given me.

[Dan Pfeiffer]

Please use the code crooked for 20% off your first order.

[Tommy Vietor]

What's the website?

[Dan Pfeiffer]

X.com what?

[Tommy Vietor]

I do not believe it was because of the electric vehicle tax credits. Trump ran against the electric vehicle tax credits the entire campaign. He I know this because Elon Musk tweeted it out today. But Elon Musk was standing next to Donald Trump when Donald Trump was praising Elon Musk's integrity by pointing out that he was supporting Trump despite the fact that Trump opposed the electric vehicle tax cuts. And Elon had never asked him to change his position on it. So that I do not think that's the reason. I think the Republicans probably made a mistake by suggesting that right off the bat that probably inflamed Elon Moore to suggest that he could not. I'm not saying his concerns about the deficit are well founded or necessarily legitimate. I don't know what his real concerns are here. The Republicans made a mistake by trying to suggest that pure picayune greed was what was driving Elon's opposition as opposed to, you could have just said we disagree here and that's it. And they did not do that. And they made this situation much worse.

[Dan Pfeiffer]

I think that, you know, and Elon has been tweeting videos of himself and retweeting other people tweeting videos of him talking about the debt and the deficit and what a problem was for a long time. And I think that when Elon took over Doge, you know, he wanted to. He thought he was going to cut all the spending. He thought he was going to make government more efficient or whatever. And he knows that Doge has been seen now as basically a failure, that the cuts were far less than what he said he could cut. And so I think it kind of built from sort of feeling embarrassed or shamed about Doge to now being pissed about the bill. And I also think it results from just Elon, still to this day, having served in government and supposedly being a very smart person, has no fucking idea what actually are the drivers of debt and deficit. And he genuinely thought that fucking feeding USAID into the wood chipper and which is, you know, has killed a bunch of kids in Africa that like somehow that's going to bring down the deficit and debt. And he doesn't realize that the biggest driver in our debt is the defense budget, entitlements. And the fact that at least in this bill Donald Trump and the Republicans want a couple trillion dollars in tax cuts, mostly for extremely rich people like Elon Musk.

[Tommy Vietor]

Yeah.

[Dan Pfeiffer]

So I think it's like a basic lack of understanding about what causes the debt and deficit. But then also he seems to care about the debt and deficit.

[Tommy Vietor]

Neither Trump nor Elon know what's in this bill or what it does or how it works.

[Dan Pfeiffer]

Nope.

[Tommy Vietor]

That they are like talking past each other. I mean, maybe he cares about the deficits, maybe he doesn't. But if he were to truly care about them and truly understand how they worked, he would probably suggest giving back his tax cut. Right, right. Or cutting the defense budget, which funds most of his companies. Right. He's not doing that.

[Dan Pfeiffer]

He calls it like a pork filled bill. There's no pork in the bill.

[Tommy Vietor]

There's a lot of dumb shit in the bill. But this is not. This is not the bill. It's not because Republicans did not put pork in the bills. Cause you cannot put those sorts of things in this type of budget reconciliation bill. This is not the appropriations bills that have the bridge to nowhere, to another deep cut from a long time ago or the sort of classic pork barrel projects that are used as earmarks to buy off members. That's not what's in this bill. That's not why this bill is the deficit. As is this deficit, because it's a giant tax cut and a huge boost in the budgets for the Defense Department and Homeland Security to do mass deportation.

[Dan Pfeiffer]

Elon is correct that the bill is a disgusting abomination. As he said, the reason it's a disgusting abomination is because it spends a trillion dollars to give tax cuts for people making over a million dollars and then pays for that by kicking 15 million people off their health insurance. So that's why it's a disgusting abomination. So he was half right on that one. I also think there was like a slow build in all of the stories that came out as Musk was leaving the White House after he left the White House about the Cabinet being pissed at Musk and him not getting along with anyone in Trump world. And I have to say I went back. This is total conspiracy theory for me. But this is where we air them out, Right? Just in public.

[Tommy Vietor]

Yes, that's how it works these days.

[Dan Pfeiffer]

That's how it works now.

[Tommy Vietor]

We'll get to some of that later on.

[Dan Pfeiffer]

But yes, when you go to the. When you reread the New York Times story about Elon's alleged drug use while he was in the White House or while he was, at least on the campaign, traveling with Trump early on. It talks about how he's campaigning with Trump. And the New York Times got a picture of his pill bottle that has, like 20 random pills in it and Adderall and a bunch of other stuff. And there's the Ketamine stuff. And it's, like, sourced to people familiar. But the way that it's written, I'm like, who would have given that to the New York Times? Including a picture of the pillbox that he travels with? And I'm like, I don't know. He was with all the Trump people during the campaign, so maybe he suspects, at least, who knows if it was or not. Maybe he suspects that it was White House people who fucked him on that story.

[Tommy Vietor]

Can I try a different theory here? Maybe that's right. I appreciate you delving, getting out at the Red String for this.

[Dan Pfeiffer]

Thank you.

[Alex Thompson]

Thank you.

[Tommy Vietor]

But you think J.D. vance is the one who gave us the New York Times?

[Dan Pfeiffer]

Oh, interesting.

[Tommy Vietor]

Well, no, maybe not, because he's trying to depose Trump for J.D. vance.

[Dan Pfeiffer]

Yeah.

[Tommy Vietor]

So maybe Stephen Miller.

[Dan Pfeiffer]

Stephen Miller. Yeah. That's awkward.

[Tommy Vietor]

Awkward dinner conversation in Miller household. Now that.

[Dan Pfeiffer]

Wow. Yeah. For those who don't know when Elon left the White House, reports are that Katie Miller, Stephen Miller's wife, who was working for Elon or working as part of the Doge effort, was gonna leave also to work for Elon post White House.

[Tommy Vietor]

I wonder if she drafted some of these tweets.

[Dan Pfeiffer]

And then someone noticed that Elon unfollowed Stephen Miller after the fight broke out today.

[Tommy Vietor]

He also unfollowed Charlie Kirk. This is a. I know this is not really where you spend your valuable time, but this is a classic reality star move. It also happens in sports a lot, too, where there's like an entire beat of people who are like, the receiver just unfollowed the quarterback. What does that mean? Here's my theory of what happened there. I think Elon Musk has convinced himself he is some sort of fiscal austerity guy. Like, he's. He has come to. He's come to self identify as that way because of Doge. And he probably thinks this bill is stupid because, you know, he. It is. It's incredibly stupid. So he calls it an abomination. Just. First he expresses some concern with it in an interview. He gets some positive feedback for that. Then he calls it an abomination. He gets a lot of engagement over that. Now all of a sudden, he has attention again because Elon really had stepped. He had been the one of the main characters in world drama for about a year straight. Then he stepped back. He was getting less attention, his tweets were getting less traction. He was just kind of tweeting about new Tesla features and SpaceX launches and not in the. He wasn't the main character. And now this was a chance to be the main character. Trump's talking about the Oval Office and he's in and he's like getting that dopamine rush of post.

[Dan Pfeiffer]

I was gonna say that. You know so well, a lot of people are talking about the ketamine, but.

[Tommy Vietor]

Really it's the dopamine.

[Dan Pfeiffer]

It's the dopamine that's. People are. People are just discounting all the dopamine. That's coming from Elon. Just firing off these tweets and getting all the response, and he's all juiced up. I think that's probably right. I think that's probably right. How do you think to get to something that really matters as opposed to just the fun reality show drama? How do you think this could impact whether Trump's bill actually passes Congress?

[Tommy Vietor]

I think it makes the difficult task of getting this bill through the Senate and then back through the House even more difficult because Musk is giving voice to two groups of people who voted for it in the House with deep reservations, and some senators in these two groups who have reservations about voting for it. Now, those groups are the far right, drown the government in the bathtub MAGA Freedom Caucus types who thinks that it didn't go far enough in terms of cuts to Medicaid, snap, et cetera. Then you have these sort of more traditional Republicans who are kind of like Paul Ryan Republicans in the closet who have concerns substantively and politically, about voting for a bill that adds $2.5 trillion to the debt at a time of high interest rates, where it becomes incredibly and prohibitively expensive to pay down that debt. And so there was a group. So a lot of those people are in the Senate. And so he just is giving them cover to oppose this bill in some way, shape or form. Does it mean it won't pass? I don't know. I don't know that yet. But it's a lot harder than it was before. This. This is the first real obstacle that's been put in the way other than just caucus dynamics. Right. This is someone who is driving, sort of shining a spotlight on the rift within the party and forcing it further apart.

[Dan Pfeiffer]

And how do you think the breakup could impact the future of the MAGA coalition? Because there's a lot of. A lot of people trying to figure out whose side they're on today. In fact, we have the Five on in our office like we always do. You know, we love to watch the Five on Fox and see what they're doing. And here's how Jesse Waters tried to navigate this today.

[Alex Thompson]

But sometimes guys fight.

[Tommy Vietor]

Guys sometimes will punch you in the.

[Alex Thompson]

Face and the next night you're having.

[Tommy Vietor]

A beer, sleep with your girlfriend and.

[Alex Thompson]

You patch things up.

[Dan Pfeiffer]

Really? Not your wife, your girlfriend.

[Jon Favreau]

Who are your friends?

[Dan Pfeiffer]

No one slept with my girlfriend. Let's put it that way. Lot to unpack there, Dan.

[Tommy Vietor]

Yeah.

[Dan Pfeiffer]

What's going on with Jesse? What's going on with Jesse? Is he that.

[Tommy Vietor]

I'm not going to touch that one. I don't really want to know how that all played itself out.

[Dan Pfeiffer]

I think is Jesse saying that you could punch him in the face and then he'll have a beer with you the next night. So you think that's what he said?

[Tommy Vietor]

I think in the end of this, he's suggesting he's the one who slept with someone's girlfriend and then they have your presence the next day.

[Dan Pfeiffer]

Yeah, yeah. And then Greg Gutfeld was kind of quiet after that.

[Tommy Vietor]

But anyway, anyway, we are too deep into the Five right now. I think that where this creates tension in the Republican Party is in the always uncomfortable marriage between the maga. Right. And the tech. Right. Right. The Peter Thiel, David Sachs all in guys, VC bros who came to support Trump in this election for a whole host of reasons. Some cultural, a lot economic, and they bought a lot of Trump's bullshit about. When Trump went on the all in podcast and he promised that we were gonna do these things to keep the high skilled workers here in the country. And he was, we're gonna staple a visa to diplomas. And that's not what this is. Right. And this tension has been manifest in the Elon Musk, Steve Bannon feud since the day after the election.

[Dan Pfeiffer]

Steve Bannon, you say?

[Tommy Vietor]

Yeah. What? Does Steve Bannon have anything interesting to say today?

[Dan Pfeiffer]

Well, yeah. So as this fight was escalating very quickly over the course of Thursday and Trump said, I'm gonna terminate the contracts. And then we get the Epstein accusation, then we get the call for Trump's impeachment, the joke was, okay, the only thing left here that hasn't happened yet is Trump trying to deport Elon Musk. And sure enough, Steve Bannon on his show calls for Elon Musk's deportation. An investigation into Elon Musk, how he became a citizen of the United States. What his immigration process was suggests deporting him and then calls for Donald Trump to nationalize Starlink and SpaceX. So he just, he went. Steve Bannon fucking that's it. He went there.

[Tommy Vietor]

In the course of three hours. We went from a mild dispute around the financial implications of a budget bill to accusations of pedophilia, deportation and impeachment.

[Dan Pfeiffer]

To your point about the tech right, Derek Thompson tweeted the tech right got suckered by the most obvious con man in political history, defended him while he raised tariffs, slash science and scared away foreign talent. And now the administration's gonna wreck SpaceX for spite while Bannon calls for Musk's deportation. Well done. I think Eric nailed it.

[Tommy Vietor]

Great job people.

[Dan Pfeiffer]

That is what, that is exactly what happened with the tech right. They just, they're total, total con men. And I don't think Donald Trump got like conned by them cuz he just, he got what he wanted. Although I will say so. Trump had an event at the White House after Elon called for his impeachment and said that he was in the Epstein files. And Trump got a shouted question about Elon at the end of the event and just did not take the bait, but seemed angry the whole time he was at the event.

[Jon Favreau]

Let's.

[Tommy Vietor]

We'll revisit this Tomorrow after Trump's 12 Diet Cokes and got got his ketamine.

[Jon Favreau]

And he's gotten his phone.

[Tommy Vietor]

Yeah, he's gotten his phone back. Because one thing we know about Trump over the years is he prefers his fights in the tweets, not in the streets. And so I could see him launching tonight on True Social.

[Dan Pfeiffer]

Yeah, there's going to be a C cot threat at some point.

[Tommy Vietor]

There is. I mean not to get into the nerdy communications of this, but Elon Musk is tweeting his on a platform where everyone is with millions of people and his millions of followers and Trump is on his weird picayune platform that has very, very small number of people actually on it. And so he's only communicating by posting on this weird platform. Then other people screenshotting his truths and then putting them on Twitter. If he really wants to get this going, he's got to get back on Twitter is what I would say.

[Dan Pfeiffer]

Yeah, I will say that the part of the MAGA coalition this time around, which is we shorthand it. Is it the tech right. The Silicon Valley folks, the all in types. It's also when we looked at the Catalyst data, Trump did gain ground with college men not just non college men. And usually in the Trump era, college educated voters have, have not been moving towards Trump. In fact, they've been moving towards the Democrats. And I do wonder, and I don't just think it's this fight at all, but I think as the Trump administration goes on, some of these college men who voted for Trump in 2024 and maybe hadn't voted for him in 2020 or 2016, maybe because they thought Elon Musk and other business types put their stamp of approval on Donald Trump. I could see them starting to peel away from the MAGA coalition as time goes on.

[Tommy Vietor]

Yeah, I mean these are most likely economically centered voters and so it's less his fight with Trump. Although I think increasing the deficit by trillions of dollars does not help with these voters.

[Dan Pfeiffer]

Right.

[Tommy Vietor]

I think putting in place tariffs that lead to a recession does not help with these voters. And they are probably these are profile is more likely voters. These are the sort of voters who sat out 2016 or voted third party in 2016 or maybe voted for Trump who then voted for Democrat in 2018 and stuck with Biden. And so they are Target voters for 2026 for sure.

[Dan Pfeiffer]

Yeah. All that said, the bill's problems on the right go way beyond Elon Musk. And as you just pointed out, with some of the people pissed about the deficits and the trillions that it's adding to the deficits, the Republicans who care about the deficit aren't happy. Republicans who care that Medicaid cuts could cost them their jobs in 2026, they aren't happy. Even Marjorie Taylor Greene is unhappy, saying she didn't know everything that was in the bill when she voted for it. She's very upset at a provision, we talked about this on offline, a provision that would prevent states and local governments from regulating AI on on their own for the next, most of the next decade. So she's, she's pissed about that. Here's a sampling of some of the Republican complaints.

[Alex Thompson]

But now they want me to vote for $5 trillion worth of increase in a debt ceiling.

[Jake Tapper]

And I'm just not for that.

[Alex Thompson]

That's not conservative.

[Dan Pfeiffer]

Here's a lesson for us all. No matter what political party holds office and is in charge, we should all watch carefully the bills that we pass.

[Tommy Vietor]

The President and Senate leadership has to understand that we're serious. They all say, oh, we can pressure these guys.

[Dan Pfeiffer]

No, you can't. This is immoral, what us old farts are doing to our young people. This is grotesque what we're doing. We need to own up to that. This is our moment. I can't accept this scenario. I can't accept it. So I won't vote for it unless.

[Tommy Vietor]

We are serious about fixing it.

[Dan Pfeiffer]

This is our moment. Old farts. What do you think about that messaging slam dunk we're getting from a Republican?

[Tommy Vietor]

This bill is just going to be a huge political gift to the Republicans. I mean like just to, I mean, I'm obviously kidding there, but let me just put in perspective how unpopular this bill is. So Hart Research Democratic research firm, did a poll for a bunch of groups including center for American Progress, Protect our Career Families that were billionaires. And they tested the bill and less than a third of voters support it. And then they went through and they did a messaging exercise where they did a generic description of the bill. Democratic arguments for the bill, back and forth between Democratic arguments, Republican arguments for the bill. When they finished that the bill is nearly 30 points underwater. To help you understand how unpopular that is. The Trump tax cut in 2017, which was thought to be one of the most unpopular pieces of legislation in history, was about 14 points underwater when it passed in 2017. And the Affordable Care act, which is in lore, this incredibly polarizing bill that cost the Democrats 60 plus seats in 2010. That bill in the Kaiser foundation tracking poll was six points above water when it passed in March of 2010. And so this is by far the least. No one is asking for this. And there's no benefit coming because people aren't getting, other than the exceptions around overtime and tips, no one's getting new tax cuts. They're just keeping the tax cuts they've had for four years. And so you're not even gonna get this boost of like all of a sudden you'll get your check in the mail with your new tax cut or your paycheck's gonna look larger. That's not what's gonna happen. It's just status quo for everyone other than people are gonna lose their healthcare and their food assistance.

[Dan Pfeiffer]

And so far the biggest challenge for those of us who oppose this bill has been that not enough people have heard about it and people aren't paying attention. Data for Progress did a poll also and also found that the bill is very, very unpopular, but then found out that I think it was like 4% of people had heard a lot about it. It was like very, it was a very small number of people had heard a lot about it.

[Tommy Vietor]

I think 14 total respondents in their open ended thing knew the bill had.

[Dan Pfeiffer]

Medicaid cuts, 14 total respondents?

[Tommy Vietor]

Yeah.

[Dan Pfeiffer]

Oh, my God. Okay. So that's the other consequence of this being the basis for the biggest breakup of the decade, is that now people are going to like, well, how did this whole thing start? And then maybe they'll look into the bill. On that note, how do you think Democrats should take advantage of all this to. To kill the bill?

[Tommy Vietor]

It is to. Like you've pointed out, the fundamental issue with the bill is that it's incredibly unpopular, but not enough people know about it or paying attention to it. So everyone has to find the tallest mountain they can find the biggest megaphone they can find, text all the people, they can shout about it, yell about it, talk about it in simple, easy to understand terms, that it's essentially a tax cut for the very wealthy and corporations, paid for by taking food and healthcare away from millions and millions of Americans, and on top of that, still adds trillions of dollars to the deficit. Everyone has to know about it. When people know about it, they're going to be against it. I think there, we have two tasks here. There is a chance that we can create enough political pressure that they have to change what this bill looks like to take some of those cuts away. It's something we'll have to pass because if they don't pass something, we will default on our debt and everyone's taxes will go up. So they'll have to pass something. But the potential to change the nature of what that is by making it as politically painful as possible. Elon Musk is helping us do that. He's not making the arguments that we would be making. He's not out there defending Medicaid, but as you say, he's drawing attention to it and putting a spotlight on it. And we can then come in, follow in, in the breach and make our arguments.

[Dan Pfeiffer]

Yeah, and I saw, you know, some people are concerned because as you point out, he's not making the same arguments that we are. And obviously it is adding trillions to the deficit. He's correct about that. But the reason that I think we oppose the bill, and probably most, I think if you ask people to choose between what they hate most, Medicaid cuts and tax cuts for the rich or, or adding to the deficit, I think they would choose the Medicaid cuts and the tax cuts for the rich, for sure. But, you know, Elon Musk called the bill a disgusting abomination. We should call it a disgusting abomination, too. And we can explain why we think it's a disgusting abomination, which is maybe partly what Elon thinks, but also the fact that it's gonna kick 15 million people off their health care to pay for a trillion dollars in tax cuts for millionaires and billionaires.

[Tommy Vietor]

I know we, I agree with you that the Medicaid cuts are by. Are much more effective. All the testing shows that as an argument. We have this hesitancy as Democrats because we've been burned by austerity politics in the past to talk about the deficits, but we should talk about the deficits. There are times when it makes sense to go in a deficit, like after a financial crisis to save the economy, to give people money to stay alive during COVID Those times make sense to go into deficit to give tax cuts to rich people at a time of incredibly high interest rates where the debt you're raking up costs so much more is insane. And it's gonna bother a lot of people. And we should not shy away from that argument.

[Dan Pfeiffer]

Yeah.

[Tommy Vietor]

At all. And I think we should make it.

[Dan Pfeiffer]

And I just think you don't have to complicate the simple here. Everyone hates the bill, right? Republicans hate it. Elon Musk hates it. This person hates it. You know, we have plenty of quotes now to play from all kinds of Republicans about how they hate the bill. We could talk about the Medicaid cuts. We can talk about the ACA cuts. There's just creating a lot of chaos around the bill about how it's intensely disliked because if the casual news consumer, if all they hear, oh, this is a bill that most people don't like. That's all. And then you'll get enough pressure on some of these Republicans to, you know, like, then they have a very thin margin. They can lose three votes in the Senate and a couple more votes in the House when it goes back to the House. So it's, you know, like you said, they probably, they need to pass something or else taxes go up. Do you see? Trump was on Truth Social Wednesday night, I think, talking about we should eliminate the debt ceiling altogether. You know, that's a play that's coming. He's going to try to figure out.

[Tommy Vietor]

How to get rid of the debt ceiling personally, over time.

[Dan Pfeiffer]

I know, because he was like, I agree with Elizabeth Warren on this. So we'll have him minting the coin. Minting the gold coin.

[Tommy Vietor]

Well, I mean, there is a legislative abolition of the debt ceiling and then there is simply minting the gold coin or somewhat just not even enforcing it, which is what Trump is obviously gonna try to do. If somehow we pass the. We run out of money before they can get this discussing abomination passed.

[Dan Pfeiffer]

Yeah, well, kill the bill. That's the rallying cry. Elon started it. You know, people like him can get credit for good ideas once in a while. Kill the bill. Kill the bill. That's what we gotta. That's what we gotta do now. Foreign.

[Jon Favreau]

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[Tommy Vietor]

Yes.

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[Dan Pfeiffer]

We won't have a drink without it.

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[Dan Pfeiffer]

This Supreme Court term asks a question.

[Alex Thompson]

What if the highest court in the.

[Dan Pfeiffer]

Land had the overall vibe of a contentious Real Housewives reunion, but also with the power to destroy democracy?

[Alex Thompson]

Yes, that is exactly where we are.

[Dan Pfeiffer]

The Supreme Court is setting fire to decades of precedent, handing presidents near dictatorial powers. And now the conservative justices are turning on each other. It's chaotic, it's dangerous, and yet, yes, it is kind of hard to follow without a legal degree that's where strict scrutiny comes in. We're legal scholars who make sense of the court's biggest decisions with clarity, context, and a healthy dose of raised eyebrows.

[Alex Thompson]

Because if the Supreme Court's gonna act.

[Dan Pfeiffer]

Like a Bravo cast, someone needs to read them. And the Constitution. New episodes drop every Monday. Follow strict scrutiny wherever you get your podcasts or on YouTube. Okay, let's get to the executive orders. Trump would rather be making headlines right now, but are still quite awful. The first one, titled Very understated, Reviewing certain presidential actions, opens an investigation to determine, quote, whether certain individuals conspired to deceive the public about Biden's mental state and unconstitutionally exercise the authorities and responsibilities of the president. Essentially, the claim here is that Biden didn't have command of what was happening in the White House and that his staffers basically ran the country via auto pen. In a statement, Biden responded, let me be clear. I made the decisions during my presidency. I made the decisions about the pardons, executive orders, legislation, and proclamations. Any suggestion that I didn't is ridiculous and false. That didn't stop Trump from elaborating on the conspiracy theory in the Oval on Thursday.

[Jake Tapper]

Well, I don't think Biden would know whether or not he signed it.

[Alex Thompson]

I'm asking if you've uncovered.

[Jake Tapper]

No, but I've uncovered, you know, the human mind. I was in a debate with the human mind, and I didn't think he knew what the hell he was doing. So, you know, it's just one of those things, one of those problems. We can't. We can't ever allow that to happen to our country, the danger our country was in. But I know some of the people that use that auto pen, and those are not the people that had the same ideology as Joe Biden. These were radical left lunatics that used that, and they didn't get elected. He didn't get elected either, actually. Thank you very much, everybody.

[Dan Pfeiffer]

Speaking of mental decline, Dan, what'd you think about. What do you think about this?

[Tommy Vietor]

I mean, Trump sounds like an unhinged crackpot talking about this.

[Dan Pfeiffer]

Yeah, he does.

[Tommy Vietor]

I mean, it makes no sense to most people. This is like, you have to be deep into, like, MAGA fanfic to know what he's talking about. I don't want to gloss over the fact that everyone's just treating as normal that the President of the United States ordered a criminal investigation into his political opponent.

[Dan Pfeiffer]

Yeah.

[Tommy Vietor]

And I pratt with a memo and directed the White House counsel to work with the Attorney General on it.

[Dan Pfeiffer]

Not how things are Supposed to work?

[Tommy Vietor]

No, no, definitely not.

[Dan Pfeiffer]

White House is not supposed to order the Justice Department to conduct investigations. No, that's not supposed to.

[Tommy Vietor]

And even like, I know the frog in the pot is a very tired metaphor after 10 years of Trump, but the way everyone just covered this is if he was just signing executive order to, like, review procurement processes. The Department of Defense are like, Donald Trump signed an order today as if like an unprecedented insane thing just happened. Just like normal news.

[Dan Pfeiffer]

What happens here? And. And do you think this is a. Who is this a problem for?

[Tommy Vietor]

Huh? Who is this a problem for? Probably the people around Joe Biden. Not. Because there is anything real here. Like, this is absurd. Even if you read all the reporting, you read Jake Tapper and Alex Thompson's book, which you guys are gonna talk about later in this podcast, there is no allegation that Joe Biden is, like, purely a puppet of a bunch of woke staffers. Just like auto penning whatever they want while he dozes. Like, that's not. There are real legitimate.

[Dan Pfeiffer]

Jake and Alex say that, like in the first couple pages. They're like those who expect this reporting to reveal someone who was like, in serious, you know, I forget the word they used. Just like a purely senile president who didn't know, had any idea what he was doing, you're going to be disappointed.

[Tommy Vietor]

So this is complete and total bullshit. It is going to be. If this investigation actually moves forward, if the FBI is going to start interviewing people, the people around Joe Biden, some of whom have already been called to Congress to testify in the congressional version of this investigation, will probably incur significant legal expenses and be exposed to risk. Not because of what, of this ridiculous conspiracy. They're just. Once you are being interviewed by law enforcement, especially law enforcement with malicious political intent, any sort of thing can happen from that. It was the investigation into Benghazi through the congressional investigations that led to Hillary Clinton's emails. Once they start digging, they can make your life very challenging if that's what they want to do. Even if you never did anything wrong.

[Dan Pfeiffer]

Yeah. And let's be honest about what they're looking for here. Like, if he doesn't like executive orders that Joe Biden signed with an auto pen, Donald Trump can overturn those orders, as he's been doing for the last couple months that he's been president. All that he cares about is the pardons. So he cares that Joe Biden pardoned a bunch of people or gave preemptive pardons to a bunch of people that Donald Trump would like to Investigate and potentially jail. That's, that's the only, that's what they really care about here. There's also like the drama around it and they can take revenge on, on Biden and they can, you know, have a bunch of headlines and give chum to the right wing media about oh, we're finally, you know, investigating the Bidens and the COVID up and all that. But really he just wants the pardons to go away.

[Tommy Vietor]

Then how you would ever possibly do that? The auto pen. There's no, I don't know that Joe Biden. There's no evidence that Joe Biden auto penned those pardons. I would be shocked if he did. But even if he had, that has been, the auto pen is been treated by the courts as a legally recognized way of executing laws and executive orders and things like pardons. So, and even what it would mean.

[Dan Pfeiffer]

The first time he threw out this allegation, you know, people dug up video after video, picture after picture of Joe Biden signing legislation himself. I realize it was probably just the body double, but, you know, at least that's out there and that's going to be tough for courts to figure out if it was the body double or the real Joe Biden.

[Tommy Vietor]

Did you see that Elon Musk also suggested that there was a Trump body double?

[Dan Pfeiffer]

Yes. Yeah, yeah. No, that's why someone should look into that too. You know, maybe who was signing his legislation.

[Tommy Vietor]

I want to hear from these 2028 Democratic candidates about what their plan for that is if they win.

[Dan Pfeiffer]

So Trump or the Trump body double or the auto pen also signed two more orders, both touching on immigration. One is a revival of his notorious first term travel ban. This one's going to take effect on June 9 and ban citizens of 12 countries from entering the US supposedly in the name of fighting terrorism. Those countries are Afghanistan, Myanmar, Chad, Republic of the Congo, Equatorial Guinea, Eritrea, Haiti, Iran, Libya, Somalia, Sudan and Yemen. It also partially restricts travel from seven other countries, including Cuba and Venezuela. We knew at some point this would be coming because Trump signed an order on Inauguration Day directing relevant departments to identify countries where they could implement such a band. So obviously there was a lot of other news today to cover besides the travel ban, but I would say fairly muted response considering that last time he tried a travel ban when he first came into office in 2017, people flooded the airports and he had to pull back also because it was poorly written from a legal perspective and the courts kind of threw it out. And then eventually they got to the point where it could pass muster. At least with the Supreme Court. What do you think's going on there with the response?

[Tommy Vietor]

I think it is a sort of a dark and deeply depressing statement about where we've gone after the last seven years now, eight years now. I think about myself, I headed directly to the San Francisco airport after that was signed and protested with thousands of other people there. And what has happened, I think, is Trump's, you know, bigoted, jingoistic, nationalistic politics has become normalized in a way. Like in 2017, it was possible to imagine that the president. United States. The president of the United States would ban travel to people from Muslim countries because they were Muslim. Like, that was the context for it. And people reacted to that with outrage and fervor. And just that sort of. That is. It's not that it is acceptable. I'm not saying people accept. They don't. I'm not saying people like this. But we are no longer shocked by these sorts of things. Right. When you're living in a world where the president is sending people without due process to a torture prison in El Salvador, these things do not seem as shocking as they were before. And that is ultimately, that is Trump winning. That's how authoritarians take power, is that people lose the ability to be outraged at things very worthy of that outrage.

[Dan Pfeiffer]

Yeah. And substantively, you could argue that the travel ban has been overtaken by much more extreme immigration and deportation policies, like you just mentioned with ccot. Also, like, they suspended all refugees, the refugee resettlement program in this country, except for the Afrikaner farmers and a host of other immigration actions that seem far more extreme even than the travel ban, even though the travel ban is horrific. So the other order he signed is one that bans Harvard from being able to enroll new international students. Last month, Trump tried to revoke Harvard certification in the government's student and exchange visitor program, which a judge blocked, while the court case proceeds. This time, Trump's arguing that he has a national security justification under the Immigration and Nationality Act. So it was the State Department and DHS last time that tried to block the international students that's currently going through courts that the. The judge temporarily blocked. Now, I think this is a legal sort of effort to say, well, this is a presidential power now, and this is a national security thing. And so courts should not intervene because it's the president's power. It's Article two. This is like their theory, the unitary executive theory. And so it's obviously almost certainly going to court. What do you think? Is it just that they're just gonna keep fighting Harvard here.

[Tommy Vietor]

Yeah. I think there's two things happening here. The first is, I think Trump just likes fighting with Harvard. I think he thinks it's good politics to fight with the most elite of elite institutions. I think, in his mind, creates this anti establishment, anti elite populist Persona.

[Dan Pfeiffer]

It's like elites. And he gets to attack elites and foreigners in one.

[Tommy Vietor]

Yes, Harvard is the easiest one to pick on. They're hard to pick on. The sense that they have resources and so they're not scared like some of the other universities, but they are, I think, the easiest to demonize. This is the most famous school. It's the most elite school. So I think that this is part of that larger conservative project. I don't know whether Trump thinks about it that way, but the people behind him certainly do. People writing these orders and finding these authorities do.

[Dan Pfeiffer]

Yeah, certainly. Yeah. For Trump, it's hard to tell. There is some evidence that they at least feel the need to sort of paint this action as not as extreme as it is. And Trump saying, like, oh, you know, Chinese students are still welcome in our institutions. It's just, we're gonna, we're gonna just look at their social media accounts and international students can still come to all to these schools and to Harvard, and we wanna work with Harvard to fix this. But Harvard is not, you know, there's probably some bad ones, and Harvard's not giving us a list of the bad ones or letting us check. Otherwise, we're happy to have international students. And I can't tell why he's doing that. But, you know, it may suggest that they know that it's not quite popular to just say, we're going to have a ban on all international students and a ban on all Chinese students everywhere in America, and we're going to try to destroy the nation's most elite institution, one of the best universities in the world. Right. So maybe there's a hint that they know that that's not super popular.

[Tommy Vietor]

I think there's a tension at the heron of all Trump things, which is that he likes to beat up on elite institutions. But what he really wants, more anything else, is be accepted by those elite institutions.

[Dan Pfeiffer]

Yeah. And if he can't be accepted by them, then he at least wants to be feared.

[Tommy Vietor]

Yeah.

[Dan Pfeiffer]

So obviously more bad news on immigration there, but there's been some slivers of good news out there on some of these deportations and immigration. So Judge James Boasberg, who Trump famously does not like, he ruled that using the Alien Enemies act, to deport over 100 Venezuelan men to El Salvador's mega prison was unlawful and that the administration has to provide habeas relief to them. Of course, the Supreme Court unanimously believes that as well. So we'll see if he actually follows. But then there's a couple cases that we have talked about last episode and prior to that that we should update you on. The Missouri woman from Hong Kong named Carol who we spoke about last episode. She's lived 20 years in a very rural Trumpy area of Missouri. I think it was like 80% Trump. And they, she was arrested, she was, you know, she has three kids, she's thrown in detention, she has been released. And this followed just an uproar from the town. All these people who said they voted for Trump, they, they marched and they, and they pushed their local officials on this. And so they have. She's not completely out of the woods yet, her lawyer says, but she is currently released and they think that they, they feel good about getting her to stay in the United States. The Massachusetts high school honor student who came here from Brazil when he was five and was detained on his way to volleyball practice, thrown in a detention center, shackled, he has been released from ICE detention as well. And I can't remember if I talked about this in the show, but the four year old girl from Bakersfield here in California or living in Bakersfield, she's from Mexico. Her parents brought her here. It was legal. She has legal status. She was able to come here because she needed life saving care that she couldn't get in Mexico. And she got that care and it's keeping her alive. And if they deported her back to Mexico, which is what they wanted to do, doctors said that she very well probably would have died. And she is now being allowed, she's getting an exception to stay here. All three of those cases that I mentioned, the decisions followed just a public outcry both in the communities where these people have lived for a long time and also just nationally, people calling attention to it. And so as bleak as things are, I do think raising awareness of these cases, when we hear about them, it's not just doing it to yell about it. I think it really does have like political pressure, does have an effect. And you know, we, so we should keep it up.

[Tommy Vietor]

Yeah. Our forces have power.

[Dan Pfeiffer]

Yeah. All right. When we come back, you're going to hear the conversation Lovett and I had with Jake Tapper and Alex Thompson about original sin, all the Biden discourse. Two things before we do that, in case you missed it Lovett sat down this week for a YouTube exclusive with new York Attorney General Tish James, who the Trump administration is now going after because she went after Trump. They talked about weaponizing the justice system, the New York City mayor's race, and a lot more. You can check out the full conversation on our YouTube page, YouTube.com/podsave America while you're there. Please subscribe. It's a huge help to us. Takes less than a second to hit the subscribe button. Also, if you're not subscribed to our Friends of the Pod community, you're missing out on new episodes from our subscription only shows. On the latest inside 2025, Alyssa Master Monaco sits down with economist assistance Cecilia Rouse to unpack big topics like the national debt, tariffs and the long term impact of today's economic policies. And on a new polar coaster, Dan broke down rising approval ratings for Trump and surprising new polling that shows Pete Buttigieg ahead of Kamala Harris and an early look at the 2028 Democratic field. Dan, you also took questions, right?

[Tommy Vietor]

I did. I took lots of questions. Great questions from our Discord listeners who are our subscribers, the Friends of the Pod.

[Dan Pfeiffer]

There you go. Join the conversation and get access to these episodes and much more by [e-mail] friends or or on Apple Podcasts.

[Jon Favreau]

This is an ad by BetterHelp. There's a lot of stigma around mental health to this day. It's gotten better, but it still could get even better. There are a lot of people that think therapy is a sign of weakness. It's a sign of strength.

[Dan Pfeiffer]

That's right.

[Jon Favreau]

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[Dan Pfeiffer]

All right.

[Jon Favreau]

Hey everybody.

[Dan Pfeiffer]

Here we are, the first four names on the Biden family Christmas card list. How you guys doing? Congrats on number one.

[Alex Thompson]

Thank you so much.

[Dan Pfeiffer]

New York Times. Look at that. Pretty good. All right, so the book has now been out long enough that we get to ask you about the reaction to the book because I don't know if you've noticed, but it's been quite intense, including from the subject of the book president former president Joe Biden, who just.

[Alex Thompson]

In case you didn't know, said that he could beat us up.

[Dan Pfeiffer]

Well, that was my first question cuz I looked at that clip and he was like, they didn't mention you guys.

[Alex Thompson]

The reporter didn't mention us or the book.

[Dan Pfeiffer]

They didn't mention you guys or the book. They just asked about the discussion about his mental capabilities. And Biden responded, you can see that I'm Mentally incompetent, I can't walk, and I could beat the hell out of both of them.

[Jon Favreau]

I saw that live and I immediately texted you. I said, I think Biden just said he could beat you up.

[Alex Thompson]

I first heard it from you.

[Jon Favreau]

I was, I think you're the both of them because you're not referenced. You're not referenced in any way.

[F]

It was unclear if it was simultaneously or one after the other.

[Jon Favreau]

I think it's like the one gorilla versus 100 men kind of situation.

[Dan Pfeiffer]

Did you guys take that to be you? I don't know who else it could have been, but I took it to.

[Alex Thompson]

Bs Yes, I took it to BS.

[Dan Pfeiffer]

Other Bidens have also weighed in on the book. His children, Hunter and Ashley, one of his granddaughters, Naomi. But there's one official response from a Biden spokesperson that's in almost every single story about the book. They haven't changed it. We continue to await anything that shows where Joe Biden had to make a presidential decision or where national security was threatened or where he was unable to do his job. In fact, the evidence points to the opposite. He was a very effective president. What do you guys think of that response?

[Alex Thompson]

Well, so that was the response that they gave before the book was released.

[Jon Favreau]

Yep.

[Alex Thompson]

And I said at the time, okay, wait until you read it and you'll get an an. You'll have to change that statement. But they have not. And the truth of the matter is that the book has any number of moments where one can wonder if whatever issues he was having did actually affect his ability to do the presidency in the way that we would want. And there was actually an essay about this in Slate today about one of the anecdotes that I found most disturbing, which was Senator Michael Bennett from Colorado goes to the White House in June 2024 before the debate. And it's an immigration event. And Biden has a very unsettling kind of moment where he seems to have some sort of neurological episode in front of the cameras. Very quick, but he's like talking and nobody can understand what he's saying. And it's not that thing he does.

[F]

When he whispers to make a point.

[Alex Thompson]

Do you know what I'm saying? If you couldn't hear that, that thing he does when he whispers to make a point.

[F]

Watch me.

[Alex Thompson]

Nobody's saying yes anyway. It's not that these mics aren't, aren't Biden level mics, but he's having some moment. It's like some weird thing. And Senator Bennett leaves the White House and thinks to himself, this is why our immigration policy is such a mess, because the Commander in Chief can't manage the portfolio. He can't handle it. He can't tell people what to do because he's not able to be engaged the way that whether or not you like his policies, and I imagine this crowd doesn't, Trump or Obama or other presidents have been able to. And in fact, the Department of Homeland Security Secretary Alejandro Mayorkas was waiting at the very beginning of the Biden presidency for the order to do more border enforcement, which would be a Biden esque way to do the job or an Obama esque way to do the job. And the order never came. So there are in the book, moments of people wondering if he's not able to do the job.

[Dan Pfeiffer]

I want to step back and talk about how you guys went about writing this book. Just for people who don't know how a book like this comes together, could you talk a bit about your reporting process, the sourcing, verifying anecdotes and recollections, the fact checking and all that? Alex?

[F]

Yeah, I mean, if anyone's like, well, now you tell us. I don't blame them for feeling that way. But the truth is that this book came about almost every single interview of the over 200 was done after November 5th. The origins of it actually are. I was on Jake's show the day before the election. He said, I think Kamala Harris might lose. And I've been thinking about this book where we examine how the Democratic Party allowed Trump to come back. Would you be interested? And like, Jake and I were friendly, but we weren't like, let's write a book friendly. And so I was like, buy me.

[Jon Favreau]

Dinner first, kind of.

[F]

Yeah, yeah, exactly. And so I was like, sure, sure, okay, whatever. And then didn't think it was gonna go anywhere. And then sure enough, Jake sends me a draft of a book proposal the night of November 6th. And we turned in and we did all those interviews. Finally, people that we had been cold calling, sliding into their DMs for like four years that never wanted to talk. Or if they did talk, they weren't exactly candid. Because I think there was this. And we can talk more about this. This gripping fear that saying anything would ultimately help Donald Trump and not change Joe Biden's mind. Now that was over, and people were willing to finally confide, you know, small episodes that they had seen that troubled them, that they sort of dismissed as perhaps one offs and were willing to sort of take us behind the scenes. Now, many of those people are still anonymous every single time. We always try to get people on the record. Sometimes people do, sometimes people don't. But that's why we interviewed over 200 people. Because when they're anonymous you need more corroboration.

[Alex Thompson]

Yeah. And just because this is the writer's block and this is Los Angeles where even bus drivers have screenplays. I'll give you just the idea of some of the writer stuff we did. For me, just as a writer, this is my seventh book and structure is like the most important thing for me. I'm sure everybody here knows that. George R.R. martin from the Game of Thrones books says that there are gardeners and there are architects, and I'm definitely an architect. You need to build the house and then you fill in the rooms. And so we started with the structure. Like here are what I think the chapter should be. Alex and I went back and forth and figured that out here are all the people we want to interview. And then we would just write chapters and you know, when they were done, they weren't done, but we would just like fill in the rooms and then go back. And the biggest disagreement we had, this is a very, a very gratifying, pleasant professional relationship. But the biggest disagreement we had was Google Docs Docs versus Word.

[Dan Pfeiffer]

And you, let me guess, you are the word guy.

[Alex Thompson]

Yes, I'm the word guy.

[Tommy Vietor]

Absolutely.

[Dan Pfeiffer]

Listen, we wrote the as a word guy.

[Jon Favreau]

I'm a Google Doc guy.

[F]

Oh, thank, thank God. Listen, we had to write the entire book in one word document that we emailed back and forth. It wasn't even by chapters. And then I'm like, Jake's doing smoke.

[Jon Favreau]

Signals, sending his horse and buggy out with the latest edition.

[F]

And as the millennial, I'm like, honestly, my command s buttons don't even work anymore. So I was frantically trying to save the document. Cause it doesn't autosave like.

[Jon Favreau]

Started.

[Alex Thompson]

We started with Google Docs.

[Dan Pfeiffer]

Okay.

[Alex Thompson]

I'm like, I'm not against Google Docs.

[Jon Favreau]

Some people are saying that maybe you were saying you were okay with Google Docs, but maybe behind the scenes weren't as capable with Google Docs that there's some evidence that maybe you'd lost a step with Google Docs.

[F]

True, it's true.

[Alex Thompson]

You can't point to any evidence.

[F]

This is a cover up.

[Alex Thompson]

So, but I will say this so once. So we, you know, we had a list of 200 plus people that we wanted to interview and we, we, we interviewed almost every single person. Google Docs stops at 100. Right. So we had. So at the next time, we had. So we had two different lists of Google Docs. This is too much in the Google Docs, Weeds.

[F]

But he couldn't handle the second Google Doc.

[Alex Thompson]

The fact that there was a second Google Anyway.

[Jon Favreau]

Yeah, the second Google Doc. So the book there is. You were talking about this, that before the election, before Joe Biden steps aside, there's this incredible fear. Right. And this is not a kind of mercenary or kind of political. It's a genuine concern for the country that if you have concerns about Joe Biden's age and you go public with those concerns that might hurt him, he's not stepping aside. You've done nothing to make our situation better. You've made Donald Trump's situation better. What is the logic after the election for people to still be afraid to speak honestly about this? Including in the book, you make reference to people who were publicly defending Biden, I believe, to this day, while talking to you behind the scenes.

[Alex Thompson]

Yeah.

[Jon Favreau]

And you could tell us who they are.

[Alex Thompson]

Well, you definitely know who they are, but you don't know who they are. So I think that there is still a tremendous amount of fear about the anger of the Biden campaign. I mean, it is odd to be attacked by Joe Biden, Hunter Biden, Ashley Biden, Naomi Biden. I guess there's a wife and maybe like six grandkids that we're waiting for before we get the whole crew, the whole set. But, I mean, it's not pleasant. And then the Democratic Party is. It's not like everybody. I mean, I think that the book has changed the conversation where people just now accept that what we're saying is true. I mean, you guys were there last year, but a lot of people were very reluctant to acknowledge this. I think the book has changed the conversation, but it's not as though the 2028 candidates are like, are running out there holding the book up and saying, like, we need to deal with this as a party. I mean, people are still in denial about it.

[Dan Pfeiffer]

Yeah. I mean, you guys use, obviously, the word cover up in the title. Provocative. Intentionally, I'm sure. What I have always tried to figure out is, and I know you guys have said that some of the people you talk to, some of the people in that inner circle genuinely believe he's fine. Or they. Or at least you leave open the fact that. So is it a coverup if they are genuinely thinking everyone else is crazy? We're around him all the time. We think he's fine, even if we all see Something different.

[F]

It's a great question. And the reason why we use cover up is because, listen, everyone knew Joe Biden was old. Everyone saw it, the polling displayed it. But even with people recognizing he was old, the Joe Biden we saw on the debate stage was still very shocking to tens of millions of people. And the reason it was shocking and I think the book really shows this, is that debate. Biden, for lack of a better term, that was not the first or even close to the first time he had acted that way behind the scenes. And there were active, even if they would not acknowledge it to themselves, by their very actions they were trying to hide and conceal Joe Biden from acting like that in public, from members of their own cabinet, from members of the Democratic Party, from members of Congress. And those efforts became increasingly frantic the six to eight months before the debate. Now your other question of, well, if they don't know, they're covering it up, they're not cognizant. Is it a cover up? By very virtue. One quick example. If you saw Joe Biden and Jill Biden on the View just like two weeks ago, she's doing what she has been doing for the last year and a half, which is she sort of helps him out. When he's like struggling, she'll jump in and like sort of complete his sentences. I'm sure she'll say he's fine, he's great. But by her very actions, she is showing that she recognizes that he needs her to pick up the, she is trying to pick up his slack.

[Alex Thompson]

I think actually that the statement that they've given suggests that they know he couldn't do the job 24 7. They don't dispute. I mean, we, what we have in the book. I don't know how many people have actually read the book, but what we have in the book is these aren't like our conclusions based on, like, what, you know, our view watching TV. This is based on, you know, more than 200 interviews with Cabinet officials, members of Congress, fundraisers, donors, you know, people who saw him up close, who told us their stories. So when cabinet secretaries tell us that by the end of the Biden presidency he could not be relied upon for that proverbial 2am phone call in the middle of the night with a national security emergency. I mean, that's a big deal. That means he can't do the job of president. That's what it means. I mean, that's what the job is. I'm old enough to remember when Hillary was running ads against Obama in Texas Saying that he couldn't be relied upon to do that because he was so inexperienced. I'm sure that's seared into your brain. And John, you probably wrote those words for Hillary.

[Jon Favreau]

It's a good ad, is a good ad.

[Dan Pfeiffer]

Love it.

[Alex Thompson]

Love it.

[Dan Pfeiffer]

Mark Penn, we're just writing it together.

[Jon Favreau]

He's a good ad. Good ads don't always work. Every losing campaign isn't wrong about everything.

[Alex Thompson]

But he couldn't be counted on. He couldn't be counted on for that. And their answer, like they don't say in their statement, you know, it's not true that he lost his train of thought in uncomfortable ways. It's not true that he didn't recall the name of his national security advisor. It's not true that he couldn't be relied upon for the 2am phone call, they say, and his decisions were fine. And you can't point to any evidence as to otherwise. And I mean, yeah, I can, but that's not even the point. You're kind of granting the whole premise of the book.

[Tommy Vietor]

Yeah.

[Jon Favreau]

It sort of, it does sort of raise the question, well, what does it mean to be up to the job? Right. And what do we require of this person and this sort of unique role that they play? Because I can see how you could say both statements are true. You have this image of what a president does, and it's in the room making a decision. Seven people around a table, they're presenting options. Maybe they disagree, maybe they don't. And you say go or you say yes, you say no. And even in the book, you acknowledge that when Joe Biden is in control of the schedule, when it's at his time at his choosing, he can do that task. Right. But the Bennett example is something else, which is a harder to measure thing. That part of the job of being president is over time, taking in information from a bunch of different people, synthesizing it, moving a debate forward. That's never a decision. Right. That he can no longer have that capacity in part because of his declining ability to communicate while still meeting that kind of decision making in a meeting threshold. And by the way, I believe people in his, maybe it's Jake Sullivan or Tony Blinken have said that they did have the 2am moment with him and they did feel like he was up to doing that.

[Dan Pfeiffer]

Yeah.

[F]

And I think your point of like, what is the job of a president? Is a good one. And so let's say we have senior officials that say that if the job is making decisions and communicating, he was clearly not able to do the latter for most of the four years, and it got worse. But also, what's sort of striking about their argument is they are saying, yes, he was. He could no longer communicate. Yes, he would ramble and stumble on meetings. Yes, his schedule was often limited from 10 to 4. His energy would be bad. When he got tired, he became unfocused. But we swear that it never affected any. All those things that are signs of decline or aging never affected his decision making, which, I mean, they don't know.

[Dan Pfeiffer]

Yeah.

[Alex Thompson]

So let me just point to some decisions that he made that we wonder about. Okay. First of all, there's the immigration that Senator Bennett wonders about. And I think that is a fair argument to make, because that is about managing. I mean, Barack Obama was, you know, he pushed for immigration reform, but he also, you know, kept a strict border and deported a lot of people. He got a lot of flack for that. As you recall, he also got reelected. So, I mean.

[Dan Pfeiffer]

But I do think on that one, the part. I mean, we could tell a whole conversation about the immigration stance of the Democratic Party and how it evolved over the years. But I do think, like, the die was cast in the 2020 primary when every candidate was like, yeah, we'll decriminalize border crossing. Except for Biden. Except for Biden. But the. Well, look, how much was Biden involved and how much. Not, like, where's the staff? Although the.

[Alex Thompson]

That's the point. That's what we're saying.

[Dan Pfeiffer]

But I'm saying is what's surprising about the immigration thing is the closest aides around him are, like, pretty moderate Democrats. Right. It's not like a bunch of.

[Alex Thompson]

I don't know about Ron Klain, though.

[Dan Pfeiffer]

The.

[Alex Thompson]

Ron Klain, the White House chief of staff for the first couple of years, became this. Even though his roots were in, like, neo, you know, new. New conservative Democrats like Al Gore.

[Dan Pfeiffer]

Yeah.

[Alex Thompson]

He became a hero to the progressives. He did. And I think there's an argument to be made that. That he steered the ship of state to the left.

[Dan Pfeiffer]

Yeah.

[Alex Thompson]

But beyond that, I don't know how aware President Biden was that there were criticisms from people like Larry Summers or Jason Furman that they were putting too much money into the economy and it was gonna be inflationary. I don't know. And now that's ne. I'm not proving it, but I just don't know. I don't know. We have no reporting that suggests that the decisions he made about Afghanistan in 2021 were enrooted in anything other than his Fierce determinative belief that he was right about Afghanistan and that Obama and the generals were wrong. Yes. Okay. But I don't know what information he was capable of absorbing and synthesizing, as you say, and on and on.

[Jon Favreau]

Well, I also part of this though is what I realized, and I realized in stark relief when reading the book as well is, oh, in the same way that I think people around Biden who do not to this day believe they were part of a cover up, one piece of evidence being they thought he was going to win the debate, they put him out there, but that over time, being around someone, your baseline moves. My baseline moves. Right. Because let's say we disagree. And actually I do think Biden's decision making was up to snuff and I don't believe his actual capacity to make governing decisions was impacted. Part of the job of president is persuading people to come along. If you are unable to persuade people to the correctness of your views to build a coalition either in Congress or amongst the public, you're weaker. You can't get things done, you can't achieve the goals you're trying to achieve. And even Democrats who were making this argument that I was among them for a time, that no, you can't, you may have questions about his ability to communicate, but these right wing fear mongering about dementia and that he's not doing the job, that's unfair. He's able to do the job of president, but I was accepting less from a president. I didn't realize the cost of having the bully pulpit basically empty.

[F]

Yeah, I mean it was, I mean, ever since television was invented, communication is just an essential part of the job. And you could say like, that's not fair or that doesn't, shouldn't matter, but it just does.

[Dan Pfeiffer]

Yeah. And the bar was lowered like gradually because I remember when he gave the State of the Union in February of 2023. And I remember watching that State of the Union without looking at Twitter and at the reaction. I'm just like, how do I think he's doing? And I was like, he got past, he got through it, he's okay. And then I turned to the coverage or at least social media, and everyone was like, that was amazing. He's great. And I'm like, he was good. He didn't have any stumbles and he was quick on his feet to joust with the Republicans, but it wasn't great. And then you think to yourself, and you guys talk about this in the book a lot, that there's the Biden Ness, right. Which is Joe Biden forever, when he was much younger, was still long winded, gives very long answers, tell stories, very gaffe prone. And so as he gets older, and especially as he gets into this term as president, you're like, is that just Joe Biden being the typical Joe Biden who tells really long stories, stumbles gaffes that he's been doing forever, or is it something else? And I do think that was. It was legitimately difficult to figure that out for a while.

[Alex Thompson]

So I'm from Philadelphia, so Joe Biden has been on my TV since I was 3. Because Delaware is such a small state, they don't have a media market. They rely on ours.

[Jon Favreau]

A lot of toll booths, but no media market.

[Alex Thompson]

Yeah. And so the very first I was a cartoonist in college, and the very first cartoon I did for the Daily Dartmouth was making fun of Joe Biden for his plagiarism scandal. So this is somebody.

[Jon Favreau]

I've had it out for him forever.

[Alex Thompson]

No, it's just.

[F]

This is actually new information to me.

[Alex Thompson]

When I worked for Salon.com, i interviewed, or I was part of a briefing that he did in 2001. So I've been aware of this guy for a long, long time. And the Bidenists, and this is in the book. And it's an important part of. Not to let anybody off the hook, but it's an important part of why for some people, it was difficult to understand what was going on with him is that he's always been long winded. He's always told long, pointless stories. He's always been a blowhard and he's always been gaffe prone. And in fact, it's really remarkable the degree to which his vice presidential staff reinvented him as the cool, avuncular uncle with the aviators and the ice cream and the Camaro. This crowd looks like they're at least my age. And so, like, you know, like there was a time when he was just kind of known as a blowhard senator. In fact, not to bring up another uncomfortable moment from the Obama campaign, but here I go.

[Jon Favreau]

Jake's memory. If only there was somebody we could harness it to generate some sort of renewable energy.

[Dan Pfeiffer]

I was gonna say, you can buy.

[Alex Thompson]

Original sin Profile of Barack Obama in Rolling stone magazine in 2007 or 2008. And there is a moment where Barack Obama is sitting at a hearing and the chairman of the committee, unnamed, is speaking and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. And Barack Obama writes on a piece of paper and hands it to Gibbs Robert Gibbs. Shoot me now.

[Dan Pfeiffer]

I remember that.

[Alex Thompson]

Who's the chairman and what's the committee? Joe Biden, Senate Foreign Relations.

[Dan Pfeiffer]

Well, and look, that was, that had been my impression of Joe Biden until he was vice President and we all worked together.

[Alex Thompson]

He was a great vice president and I was recreated.

[Dan Pfeiffer]

Yeah, I do think there was part of him that was like he wanted to, he did want to show some discipline as vice president. He had ascended to this role and he's just, I mean, for all the blowhard in the stories, he was also like such a good human being and he was like very grounded. And I think the relationship, and we could talk about where it ended up, but the relationship between he and Obama, which started as, okay, this is a partnership, it makes sense to you. They became really, really close by the end of those four years. And then I think beyond that, we all know what happened.

[Alex Thompson]

Yeah, no, but my point is just that that Bidenness, in the book, we have aides who are like, well, is he just telling a story like he always does or is this something else? Is he just being completely inappropriate because he's 79 or has he always been completely inappropriate? We have one European leader sitting down having a meeting with Biden during his presidency and Biden just blah, blah, blah, and like completely misses the brief, does not talk about what he's supposed to. And this leader says something, but he's always been a bit like that. Right. I mean, you know, so it was not necessarily. People didn't notice it at first.

[F]

Well, and this is, I mean, in some like, this story is very familiar, I think, to basically everybody who has an aging relative.

[Dan Pfeiffer]

Right.

[F]

And you know, is the relative doing X because there's something off or just because they're just being themselves and they're just older? You know, but in this case, it happened on the largest stage with like potential consequences for all of us. And that's also, I mean, we're poking fun at him a little bit. But you know, that's why we frame the book as a tragedy. Because he is a good, I mean by all, like, he is a good man and a well intentioned one. And he was undone by both power, his own ego and his own, like, you know, I think in some ways a virtue of never giving up that became sort of a tragic. Vice.

[Dan Pfeiffer]

Foreign.

[Jon Favreau]

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Oh, God. What kind of whitefish was it?

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[F]

Yeah, I mean, you Remember during the 2019, 2020 Democratic primary when Joe Biden was like, I'm gonna be able to negotiate with Mitch McConnell, there were little guffaws from the base of the party. And Joe Biden passed an infrastructure bill with I think 19 Senate Republicans. Don't quote me on that. And then did an event in early 2023 with Mitch McConnell in Kentucky. And Mitch McConnell called the infrastructure bill a legislative miracle. So you could also imagine how Joe Biden and the people in his inner circle who had felt underestimated, who had listened to the people laughing at them, were saying, but that also created this insularity where eventually they would not listen to outside critics, even well intentioned ones.

[Alex Thompson]

So America loves an underdog. And Joe Biden has been an underdog throughout his life. And one of the qualities that the American people love about him, admire about him, is his ability to get up off the ground after fate or God or whatever has thrown something horrible at him. Whether it's a debilitating stutter or that horrible car accident that took the life of his wife and daughter and sent his two sons to the hospital in 1972, or his brain aneurysms in 1988. And on and on and on. And what makes this a tragedy is that it's that quality that makes it so he can't see when it is actually time to give up. Because he has been so determined to fight and achieve and do good things for the country. He's not. I mean, members of his family might be, but he's not trying to enrich himself as President of the United States. And then the other tragedy about this story is that he defined his presidency as a battle for the soul of America, to save America from Trump and Trumpism. And because of those decisions he made to run for reelection and to hide what was happening to him, he delivered the country back into the hands of Donald Trump.

[Dan Pfeiffer]

Yeah. And look, this is why, reading your book and just having experienced the last couple years, I have anger towards Joe Biden. I think I have more anger, especially after reading your book, towards the close group of advisors that kept most of the other White House staff, campaign staff, pollsters, everyone else at bay, and no one thought to themselves, can this guy really do it? Is this a good idea? I thought one of the most shocking revelations in the book for me was you talk to some people who worked for Biden back in 2020. And you write that ahead of the Democratic national convention in 2020, Biden did a series of zooms to produce a campaign video of him talking to voters. And one Democrat you talked to said, who's working with the Biden campaign? It was like a different person. This was like watching grandpa who shouldn't be driving. I didn't think he could be president. This was when some top Democrats entered an angry phase. I became disillusioned with the entire apparatus because what I was seeing on this video in 2020, that means people working for him every day. See this. Did anyone else tell you that they had concerns as far back as 2020?

[Alex Thompson]

A small handful of people who had known him for a long time. One said that the first time that they noticed any sort of deterioration came after his son Beau's tragic death of brain cancer in May 2015. And this person, this top aide said it was like watching water poured on sand. What happened to Biden's psyche? And then there were people that popped in on him in 2017, 2018, before he ran, who said it seemed as though he'd aged 10 years in one or two. And then in the her report, when Robert her does his special counsel report on Biden's mishandling of classified information, one of the things that one of the reasons they conclude that they can't prosecute Biden successfully, even though they conclude he did break the law with the classified information, was not just the interview they did with Biden in October 2023 that the audio of which was released a few weeks ago, but because of the audio, the tapes that they had of Biden talking to his ghostwriter in 2017, 2018, where it sounds like debate Biden, or for wanting of want of a better term, non functioning Biden, where he is not clear on dates or he's not clear on situations, and he loses his train of thought in a major way. And Alex had great reporting in the book that suggested that aides said would privately acknowledge that while Covid was one of the worst things to happen to the United States, it was one of the best things to happen to Joe Biden's presidential campaign in 2020 because he could run from his basement.

[Dan Pfeiffer]

I still, I also can't believe that there was no real discussion or debate among Biden and even his broader circle of advisors, senior staff about running for reelection in 2024, particularly because he talks about himself in the 2020 campaign now, famously, as I'm nothing more than a bridge to this generation of new leaders behind me, he also says in 2020, I'm just a transitional candidate, so he doesn't take a one term pledge, but makes it seem like he may only serve one term. And then I remember thinking to myself, like, is he going to run for reelection? It doesn't seem like. And then we did well in the midterms and I was like, oh, I wonder if they're going to have a debate about this. But it sounds like there was no real meeting, discussion, anything.

[F]

Yeah. And what's sort of shocking is one of the most consequential political decisions perhaps in American history is how little process there actually was. And basically what happened was Joe Biden, who, you know, we were. Someone close to him said he is nothing if not for this. And this is the guy that had been thinking about being president as soon as he was constitutionally eligible to be president. And that was in 1977. And he basically, he wanted to run for re election. The first lady wanted him to run for reelection. Someone equated Joe Biden like a long term advisor. There was this metaphor, he's like a shark. He just has to keep swimming or he'll die.

[Jon Favreau]

Men need therapy. And if you're a man here, you're not in therapy, do a favor for your wife.

[Dan Pfeiffer]

Or husband.

[Jon Favreau]

Or husband. Thanks, Jake. Gay splain to me during fucking Pride.

[Alex Thompson]

Somebody needed to gay splain. I'm sorry, I was right here.

[Jon Favreau]

Sorry I interrupted you, Alice.

[F]

But yeah, I mean, basically like Jose was going to run. Jill and Hunter were completely on board. And, you know, and we can get into Hunter stuff later if you want to. But, you know, Hunter had obviously spiraled and I think saw in his dad's presidency, in the fight against Trump, sort of a chance to redeem himself and also a way, if we're being honest, to stay out of prison. And I think basically the family decided. And when anybody in the inner circle was like, are we going to talk about this? Are we going to have a real discussion, debate. Word came down from Mike Donilon said, president's decided it's over. And in fairness, even those that had concerns, none of them ever got in Joe Biden's face. You could say that's part because of their own cowardice or also because of the culture that Biden and the family in particular had created where decisions, dissent or questioning was immediately suspected as disloyalty.

[Alex Thompson]

Barack Obama went by the White House in spring, summer 2023, to kind of kick the tires and see if this was a good idea. And at that point, their relationship Was strained enough because as Obama would put it, when people would say to him, is Biden really gonna run for reelection? You should talk to him. And he would say, like, you know, he. He's still pissed at me for backing Hillary in 2016. So their relationship was at the point where Obama didn't feel like he could say, hey, you should think twice about this.

[Dan Pfeiffer]

The Hillary thing too.

[Alex Thompson]

It's not true.

[Dan Pfeiffer]

Well, the timeline on this is also. I think it's confusing for people because the way the story is told, it's like the beginning of the 2016 race. And it's Hillary and Bernie and Joe Biden, and Obama's like, and I pick Hillary. And that's not what happened at all. What happened was Joe Beau dies and Joe Biden is mourning his son. Bernie Sanders and Hillary Clinton enter the race. They have six, seven months of campaigning. They have organizations in Iowa.

[F]

Ten months.

[Dan Pfeiffer]

Ten months. Okay. Ten months of campaigning.

[Alex Thompson]

They're getting the book. Just so you know, he's not lecturing us. He wants to make sure, you know.

[Dan Pfeiffer]

Well, because it just gets confusing about, like, what? And so Joe Biden contemplates in the fall, a late entry into the race after Hillary and Bernie had already been campaigning against each other forever and have these big organizations in Iowa and then goes to Obama and is like, can I jump into the race this late? And Obama's like, well, if you jump into the race this late, a probably it's going to help Bernie Sanders win because Hillary and Biden would split the vote of, like, non progressives. And also was genuinely concerned. You guys write this in the book. Genuinely concerned about him because he was still grieving his son.

[Alex Thompson]

But that, you know, it became in Biden's brain. And look, we write about this in the book. This, the Biden mythology. And all politicians have their own mythology. But part of. By 2019, 2020, it had changed into a theology where there was just this faith and it's a small cult of people who believed in it. But like all religions, skeptics were not allowed. And this belief. And part of this mythology or theology is Barack didn't back me in 2016, which is also one of the reasons why, although Alex and I differ on why did Biden endorse Kamala so quickly, my version is the more charitable one, which is he's proud of the fact that he picked Kamala Harris to be his vice president, not so much for Kamala Harris, but because of what she represents. And he doesn't wanna do to her what he thinks Obama did to him, which, as you note, is not really accurate. It's revisionist history. But that's how he thinks of it.

[F]

And I think that what Jake said is true. I just also think that Biden, as he is fuming is like, you're gonna kick me out. You get Kamala, you're not gonna be able to get the open process that you guys want, that Obama wants, that Pelosi wants. I get to choose who it is. And also I'm gonna show what it means to really be loyal to my vice president.

[Alex Thompson]

This is one of the few areas of disagreement. There's word versus Google Docs. This is what motivates him. And we've learned in. In our San Francisco leg of the tour, he thinks that the Rock is a good movie. That's another. These are.

[Dan Pfeiffer]

Oh, I'm with Alex.

[Jon Favreau]

What kind of.

[Alex Thompson]

Thank you.

[Jon Favreau]

What kind of a feat. Opinion is that? The Rock is not a good movie.

[Alex Thompson]

Man.

[F]

The people are with me, Jake.

[Jon Favreau]

What a ridiculous statement.

[F]

But I will say. And you guys saw this, that resentment toward Obama and all the recording.

[Dan Pfeiffer]

We got some of that too.

[F]

Well, you remember in 2019, Biden would not appear on Pod Save America. I think every Democrat running for president appeared on Pod Save America. Every Democrat appeared on the Axe Files with former Obama adviser David Axelrod. Joe Biden didn't. And I mean, I think he did in the general election.

[Jon Favreau]

Yeah, we got him. Well, whenever Joe Biden comes on Pod Save America, he does win one on one.

[Alex Thompson]

There is one. Biden aides said to us that when he's talking about the elites, he's talking about Obama.

[Dan Pfeiffer]

Yeah. Which is. It's sad. And I don't like not just Obama.

[Alex Thompson]

He's probably talking about us too. But I'm just saying, like, Obama is definitely in his brain when he's thinking that.

[Dan Pfeiffer]

Here's the other thing I've always wondered too. So he decides he's gonna run again. And I think a lot of people are like, well, why? Why didn't the Democratic Party do something? Why didn't someone get involved? Did you guys in your reporting hear anything about other potential candidates in 2024? Like, were some of them getting ready? Were they thinking about it? Because honestly, like, they are as responsible. Like someone would have had to run against him. And we would always. Because people like our. Our staff was like, why is Joe Biden the one? And other people. And I'd be like, look, someone's gotta run against him. You know, And Dean Philips, you guys interviewed Dean Phillips.

[F]

Like MSNBC would Not even have Dean Phillips on you guys like did a tough, like, good interview with him.

[Dan Pfeiffer]

Yeah. And was not. And look, and we were during that interview, I was like, well, I get why someone is running against Joe Biden. It didn't seem like he had. And he did it in fairness to Dean Phillips. He was like, look, no one else would do it.

[Alex Thompson]

He tried to get Whitmer, Pritzker, Newsom, Bashir. He tried to get them to run. Some of them wouldn't even take his call. Bill Daley, Obama's former chief of staff, former Clinton Commerce Secretary, he tried to get people to run. Nobody would do it. You know, there isn't a very long proud history of people challenging incumbent presidents and defeating them in primaries. Usually what happens is Ted Kennedy being the one exception. Usually you go off into disgrace. People still, though, were mad at Ted Kennedy for not centuries. For decades. Well, it felt like centuries blaming him for weakening Jimmy Carter. So Ronald. I mean, it's stupid as revisionist, but there were candidates that were up until the end of 2023 watching to see if Joe Biden was actually gonna go through with this. And there were maybe five or six that could have on a dime put a campaign together. I think Newsom, Harris, Whitmer, Buttigieg, maybe Pritzker. Am I forgetting anything?

[Dan Pfeiffer]

Yeah.

[Alex Thompson]

And Klobuchar, they could have, but nobody was going to do it against him.

[F]

Yeah, there was sort of a just in case primary like going on. I mean, you had Pritzker and Newsom like cutting checks for like the, the Charleston, South Carolina mayoral race in 2023. I'm sure it was completely just good intentioned out of the kindness of their hearts to get involved in those races. And yeah, they like there was quietly, everyone was pushing and it got to the point, point actually in early 2024 where Biden campaign chair Jenna Malley Dillon actually starts calling some of the governors and be like. And feels like they're sort of subtly trying to undermine Biden.

[Alex Thompson]

She hears that Governor Healy of Massachusetts is talking up Whitmer.

[Jon Favreau]

Yeah.

[Alex Thompson]

And she. And o' Malley Dillon gets mad about it. I will say though, something that is very specific to where we are as a country right now is first of all, there is very little incentive for courage built into our politics. People are all about the base and all about not rocking the boat. Second of all, parties are so weak right now. This is a smart crowd. So I'm not gonna ask, can you name who was DNC chair during the Biden presidency? Jaime Harrison. But I had to beat you to it. But this was not somebody who was brought in because he was gonna be able to tell Joe Biden some hard truths.

[Jon Favreau]

Well, there's a Mara Healey. I think there's a way to get from that to some of the larger lessons that we should take forward from this, other than to probably not nominate Joe Biden in 2028, which I think we're all settled pretty good on.

[F]

He's gonna resent Bah. Save America even more now.

[Alex Thompson]

Yeah, you joke about that. They still to this day, Biden and his top aides say that he could have won, could have beaten Trump, and he could serve as president until January 2029.

[Jon Favreau]

I just think that's sad.

[Alex Thompson]

And they still argue that point.

[Jon Favreau]

But I think this gets at what I was gonna point out from the book, which is you have this. There's a moment with Maura Haley where she's walking out of the, I guess the White House, and she says to Rasheti, I'd love to see the polling. And he's like, I know polling, and I believe it's directly to you as a quote, where she says, there's no chessboard, to paraphrase. There's no one pulling the strings behind the scenes. There was just one old man and his enablers who refused to do the right thing. It's basically what she says. And that was sort of my. As I'm reading the book, I was like, oh, my God. Everyone was feeling the same way. Everyone had these questions. If you saw Joe Biden once at his worst, you thought, is this a strange aberrance? Am I seeing something that no one else is seeing? I'm being reassured. And it's not just people that are seeing him at town halls. It's governors, it's senators. There was nobody making some. There was no grand decision being made. There was no DNC making machinations. It was just a bunch of people kind of fuddling along, making the best decisions they thought they needed to make each day, leading us to this kind of cataclysm.

[F]

And the reason why they began increasingly shielding him from governors is to make people say, oh, it was just a one off. It must have just been sort of a bad day, bad hour. And they were gaslighting. Not just like the public and reporters, but they were gaslighting their own members and leaders of the Democratic Party, members of their own cabinet.

[Alex Thompson]

Yeah. And one of the things we learned in this. We learned so much while researching this book. But one of the things we learned is they weren't just hiding biden from the world. They were hiding the world from Biden. And when we talk to his pollsters, they are, in my view, some of the most moving and alarming sections of the book have to do with these three pollsters. Most pollsters don't work in the White House. Pollsters always work outside of the White House. And the campaign had somebody that did data, but then there were also these three pollsters, three of the best in the space.

[Dan Pfeiffer]

Great pollsters.

[Alex Thompson]

Yeah. Jeff Guerin and Molly Murphy and Jeffrey Pollock. And they had data, and they couldn't ever bring it to the president, which is crazy. But they would bring it to Donilon and Richetti, and then Donilon and Richetti would put it through the Donilon and Rachetti Izer and present it to Joe Biden.

[Jon Favreau]

It's a landslide bus.

[Dan Pfeiffer]

Well, they also then they told the New Yorker that they genuinely believe that polling is broken now, and so polling doesn't matter, even though they had polling that was telling them bad things.

[Alex Thompson]

And when David Plouffe came in after Biden had dropped out and he saw the actual polling and saw that not only were they gonna lose all of the battleground states and by a lot, but they were on track to lose Minnesota and Colorado and Virginia and New Mexico, I think, was on the bubble, and New Hampshire, and it would have been a bloodbath. And whatever you think of Kamala Harris, she at least brought the party to treading water. And so it was a bad night, but it wasn't just a complete wipeout.

[F]

Like, yeah, the Trump campaign believes, like, they would have a 57, potentially a 57 seat majority in the Senate if it had not been for Kamala Harris.

[Dan Pfeiffer]

Top two.

[Alex Thompson]

It's 53 right now, just for people who are normal.

[Jon Favreau]

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[Dan Pfeiffer]

Since the book, you guys have taken a lot of shit from both the right and Democrats. Biden supporters on the right.

[Alex Thompson]

Read the tweets, baby.

[Dan Pfeiffer]

Well, I'm confused about this because they have accused the Trump media folks have accused you guys of being part of the COVID up that you write about.

[F]

Actually, it's mostly Jay.

[Dan Pfeiffer]

It is mostly Jay.

[Alex Thompson]

It's just me.

[Dan Pfeiffer]

But like most a most of the information in the book you found out after the election. B before the election. Like people who spent time around Biden either wouldn't talk to reporters or wouldn't tell reporters the truth. So what is the. What were you guys? What was the media? Not just you two, but like the media I mean, Alex Yu won an award at the Correspondence center. And even you said, like, this is a story we all miss. And I thought that was. I was like, I don't know that you guys necessarily missed the story because there wasn't a story to get if the people who could tell the story refused to tell it.

[F]

I think so a few different points on that. I think there is a difference between while a lot of right wing media was right to be skeptical of Biden's abilities, there's a big difference between showing on a loop, him stumbling up the stairs of Air Force One and doing behind the scenes reporting. I also said I thought we missed a lot of the story in part because Jake and I had just done this book. And I was like, holy shit. There was a lot that I didn't know. Now, that being said, I do think, in particular for reporting and reporters, a hinge moment is after Robert Herr's report in early 2024 in which he basically decides not to prosecute Joe Biden because he says the jury would not convict such an old man with a bad memory. And if you look at the coverage, I think the White House comms team, props to them, they did a very good job. But I think if you look at the coverage, it was not skeptical enough. And I think that's if I think, you know, I think the fairest critique is really those like four or five months before the debate when, after the special counsel report. I think that's when I think like you can really, I think objectively argue the media did not do a good enough job.

[Dan Pfeiffer]

Yeah. What about you? I mean, I had to watch Megyn Kelly yell at you for a while on that show. I was like, what?

[Jon Favreau]

I think you actually didn't have to.

[Alex Thompson]

I think that the conservative media we discovered while we were reporting this, was right to be skeptical of his acuity from the beginning, from 2019, because our reporting suggested that it was an issue as far back as 2015. And so when I get new information, I changed my mind, which is not, I think, a difficult thing for mature adults to do. I have no problem acknowledging that the skepticism in 2019, 2020, about his acuity was correct. I thought he was aging. I didn't see acuity issues at that time. I was mistaken. The tone and tenor of some of the criticism, I think is rooted in the fact that a lot of these same people said that when Obama took office, he was a secret Muslim, that the New Black Panthers were going to take over the country, that Hillary was going to die. In 2016, that the election was stolen in 2020, and on and on and on.

[Dan Pfeiffer]

I mean, the current president just a couple days ago shared a post that said, actually, Biden was executed in 2020, and it was a body double the entire time.

[Jon Favreau]

By the way, we should have paid more for that body double.

[F]

Thank you.

[Jon Favreau]

Can we not get up if we're going to replace the guy? This guy, we got a used body double.

[Alex Thompson]

Do you have anything in Orion Reynolds?

[Jon Favreau]

Yeah, something. Get something new off the lot here.

[Alex Thompson]

So I think that they are, and they were right about this. Now, again, as Alex says, there's a difference between broken clock. You know, there's a difference between calling him an applesauce head and laughing at him and saying he needs a sippy cup and showing these clips on a loop and doing investigative reporting. But that said, because of what you mentioned, it took a lot to do investigative reporting on this. And even if you go back and read some of the pieces that really were shocking at the time, Peter Baker wrote one in 2023 about how much rest they built into his schedule in terms of trips. Alex's incredible scoops about Biden's schedule, the Wall Street Journal reporters Siobhan Hughes and Annie Linsky. Like, even if you go back and read those incredibly important stories that were very difficult and brought a lot of criticism to the reporters, they're nothing compared to what we found out after the election was over. And people felt like, okay, I don't have to worry about helping to elect Trump. He already won, so now I can unburden myself.

[Jon Favreau]

And also, just also add to that the American people had made up their decision on Joe Biden's age. They had decided he was too old to seek reelection.

[Alex Thompson]

They decided that in 2022.

[Jon Favreau]

But so to the idea that this is something that wasn't in front of people, that wasn't a big subject of discussion. It was one of the most important debates. We were talking about it on Pot Save America all the time. How does he address this liability? He's failing to address it. In the weeks after the debate, it was shocking, not just the performance in the debate, but that the obvious solution is him going out there over and over again was not one they were taking advantage of. And it's really chilling to read in the book that that's not a demand being made just from people on the outside. Chuck Schumer's asking that different senators are.

[Alex Thompson]

Asking, and Schumer concludes that he's not doing it because he can't.

[Jon Favreau]

Now, I'm Sorry to do this and cuz I do think we have some audio that I think is important to play and I think it is an indictment of you personally, Jake. Speaking of.

[Alex Thompson]

I know what this is.

[Jon Favreau]

Speaking of Chuck Schumer, I did listen to part of the book in the car. I did some on the text, but some. I'm excited for this in the car. Can we just play a little bit of the audio version of Original Sin?

[Alex Thompson]

I'm urging you not to run. Do you think Kamala can win? Biden asked. I don't know if she can win, Schumer said. I just know that you cannot. Biden said that he needed a week. They stood on their way out. Biden put his hands on Schumer's shoulders. You have bigger balls than anyone I've ever met. Biden told him.

[Dan Pfeiffer]

You did a voice.

[Jon Favreau]

What the fuck was that?

[Dan Pfeiffer]

Wow, I screwed up. I should have listened to the audio.

[Jon Favreau]

I don't even know how it's possible that your impression of Chuck Schumer is anti Semitic. You're a Jewish man, you're from Philadelphia.

[Alex Thompson]

I will tell you, wherever I go on this book tour, people come and they say, I'm listening to the book on tape. And I love your impression. That is the God's honest truth.

[F]

This is actually the first time I have heard that.

[Dan Pfeiffer]

Yeah, me too.

[Alex Thompson]

And I thought it was good.

[Dan Pfeiffer]

Also. You did a Biden too. I didn't use some mark the Biden.

[Alex Thompson]

I was holding back because I didn't want it to be full anti Semitic.

[Jon Favreau]

Yeah, that's right.

[Dan Pfeiffer]

You went half.

[Alex Thompson]

Just slightly Unbelievable. I'm Jewish in case people know he's Jewish and very proud of it. And if you have a problem with that, you can leave.

[Dan Pfeiffer]

Okay, I'll do a last question that's based on the criticism that you guys have gotten from a lot of Democrats. This is criticism we get whenever we talk about it, which is why is this still relevant now? And leave the guy alone. Leave the past in the past and let's focus on the current president, who at least half the country would argue is more unfit than Joe Biden, albeit for different reasons. What do you guys say to that?

[F]

I mean, I would say this is part of the reason why the Democratic Party is in the situation it's in. I mean, anytime there was any coverage about age, whether or not I brought it up or Jake brought it up, it was what about Trump? And reporting is about holding up a mirror. And the Democratic Party can either look in the mirror and recognize this is part of the Reason they lost that while they rightly mock Republicans for trashing Trump in private and then going out there and saying he's the most ethical, bestest president in American history, they were doing the exact same thing when they were trotting out, being like, biden is sharp, he's running circles around us. He is so engaged, you wouldn't even believe it. All you had to do is be in the meetings and it just wasn't true. So I guess, you know, Democrats, if they want, I have no idea if the Democratic Party, if the voters are actually going to engage with the content of this book. But reporting is just about trying to hold up that mirror in front of people and whether or not they look in is up to them.

[Alex Thompson]

So I have two points on this. First of all, it just happened. The debate wasn't even a year ago. It was June of last year. I mean, it just happened. When were you supposed to write books?

[Jon Favreau]

Yeah. By the way, also, I learned here tonight that you did the book proposal on November 6th. You are sick.

[Alex Thompson]

Yeah.

[Jon Favreau]

You're a sick man.

[Alex Thompson]

I have problems. The other point I would make, it's true, I'm very driven. I agree.

[Dan Pfeiffer]

He cares too much. That's his biggest weakness.

[Alex Thompson]

That's my. Oh, this. Okay, quick, Obama aside. Oh, no, this is my. No, this is a good Obama story. This is one of my favorite Obama stories. It's one of the first debates in 2020, in 27, 2007 or 2008. And it's like Hillary, John Edwards and Obama, and they're asked, what is your biggest fault? And Obama goes first. And it's like, well, I'm really messy of a messy desk. It's a real problem. And then John Edwards is like, I care so much about people, voices, the voices. I really, really. It's a problem. I really care about the American. And then Hillary's like, I work so hard. I work so hard for the American people. And then Obama's like, wait a second, I didn't think we were giving answers like that. I thought we were supposed to really answer the question. The best Obama moment ever.

[Dan Pfeiffer]

And then he would tell that story on the stump for like the next couple weeks. It was like a great laugh line on the stump.

[Alex Thompson]

The other thing I would say in response to the why aren't you covering Trump? I cover Trump every day for two hours still, even on the road, but beyond that. So I don't know how many of you have gone to New York to see Goodnight and good luck if you haven't yet. It's great. If you haven't yet, CNN is actually gonna show it on Saturday night on cnn. And you should see it. Cause it's really good. They're doing a live broadcast of the play. But at the very end of the whole play takes place in 1954. It's Murrow and McCarthy and all that. At the very end, there is, like, the one thing that's not said in 1954 is there's this montage of video clips of television news. And there's like the moon landing and JFK getting assassinated and all these things. And at the end of this montage, it's maybe, I don't even know, five, ten minutes, something like that. It goes like that. But at the end of it, you see Republicans lying about the 2020 election on cable. And then you see Democrats lying about Biden's acuity on cable. And I asked Clooney for an interview I did. When we did the New Yorker, excerpt of the book, just to give, like, a little special something for the New Yorker. I asked Clooney to weigh in. Why did you put that in? Obviously, George Clooney played a role in all of this when he wrote his op ed calling for Biden to drop out. And he said, it's important that we call that out to the people vouching for Biden because we have to speak truth to power, no matter who's in power. And I said, well, what do you tell people who say, what about Trump? He said, how do you think we got Trump?

[Dan Pfeiffer]

Yeah, yeah. I mean, look, from a perspective of, you know, a couple Democrats who want Democrats to win again, like, you can't. You cannot tell people that what they are seeing and what they are hearing isn't true. And it wasn't just over the last four years. It was a Biden thing with the age. Look, it was also about inflation and costs. And, you know, someone would say, well, gas prices are high. And then someone say, oh, well, you just took that picture in front of a gas station where the prices are always high. And it's like, I get that. That can be frustrating. Like, I've been on the other side of it. I've worked in the White House and yelled at reporters, maybe you guys. But at some point, the voters get to decide. And you have to listen to the voters. Because if you do not listen to the voters, you cannot get the votes you need to take power. It seems very simple, but it is something that we have, at least some parts of the party have forgotten.

[F]

I mean, I think it's a lesson of this book that there's an old expression that Washington is often the last to get the news. And the Democratic Party, and very much including and especially the Biden White House, did not want to respect or listen to their own voters. And I think you could also argue that the Democratic Party has not listened or totally respected their voters in the last three presidential primaries. And some of the argument has been, well, we don't want a divisive primary because Hillary was hurt by Bernie. You guys know, probably the most divisive Democratic primary in recent American history was your guys' and Obama entered with 60 Democratic Senate seats. Like divisive primaries allow for debate and for voters to decide who the strongest candidate is. They're not inherently bad.

[Alex Thompson]

I would argue that the last time the Democratic Party on the presidential level listened to its voters was 2008.

[Dan Pfeiffer]

What about 2020?

[Alex Thompson]

I don't know. In 2020, the party. So just to remind folks, Buttigieg won Iowa. Bernie won New Hampshire, Bernie won Nevada, Joe Biden won South Carolina. And then there was this uprising of Obama and the party influencers to get everybody out of the race except for Joe Biden so that they could beat Bernie because they were terrified Bernie was gonna be the nominee, and they did that. I'm not here to advocate for Bernie Sanders, but. And obviously it worked out the way the Democrats wanted it to work out. But the last time Democrats actually, in 2012, doesn't really count because it's an incumbent. But the last time there was an open process and the Democrats said, okay, go, you know, Obama, Hillary, Edwards, whoever, Biden, Chris Dodd, whatever, like. And the voters did a pretty good job.

[Jon Favreau]

Well, the voters also. I mean, look. Yes, but voters chose Joe Biden in that primary in 2020. I think there's some truth in what you're saying, but I will also say there was another moment when I feel like what we saw was a kind of the voters having their say in a way, and a kind of moment where you saw how the Democratic Party is very different than the Republican Party, which is after that debate. Because I do think there's a part of this story that is. I think, even though it did not end the way we had all hoped is inspiring, which is, in the wake of that debate, what you saw is people willing to tell the truth about what they saw and the importance of making a change. You have leading Democrats going to Joe Biden, asking him to step aside. You have these incredible moments which you report on in the book of members of Congress trying to Speak directly to Joe Biden about this. Not liking what they're hearing, not accepting no for an answer. You have people on the outside talking about this. You have a real and genuine moment of a group of people coming together and saying, hey, for the good of the country, this guy has to step aside because Trump is an existential threat. And it may not have ended in Kamala being president, but it did, I think, speak to. To me, like, the values you're trying to say. We didn't evince before when Joe. But when people were getting behind Joe.

[Dan Pfeiffer]

Biden, we've been waiting to leave out.

[F]

There, I would say they get half credit. I mean, I think your point is well taken, that if. If Donald Trump had had. If Donald Trump had had, like, showed serious signs of decline or whatever, that. And had that similar debate. I. I grant the point that a lot of Republican lawmakers would not have the courage to finally speak out and say something.

[Dan Pfeiffer]

I mean, he tried to steal an election and, you know, stage an insurrection in the Capitol. And they're like, all right, let's go.

[Jon Favreau]

24 hours of courage. In the wake of it, all I'm saying is, I think what I take away from it is there was a. We were. There was no one in charge. There was no one making the decision. We were kind of sleepwalking towards decision disaster. And then after that debate, we woke up, and the question is now how do we make sure we stay awake and are honest about challenges the Democratic Party faces?

[F]

Granted, I was just gonna add, though, I don't think you get, like, points for courage when you only do it because you now believe you might lose.

[Jon Favreau]

Oh. Oh, Alex. I thought we were gonna lose for months.

[Dan Pfeiffer]

Then we just. We just knew it. After the debate.

[Alex Thompson]

I think that Alex and I have a slightly less positive review of Democrats. And I'll just tell you why. Can anybody here guess how many Democratic governors called for Biden to drop out of the race after the debate? 1. Governor Healey of Massachusetts. How many Democratic senators? 1. Senator Welsh of Vermont. I mean, it wasn't an outpouring of courage. It was a lot of behind the scenes maneuvering because people didn't want to come across as jerks. The House members were braver.

[Jon Favreau]

Yeah.

[Alex Thompson]

And. And they're, you know, they're the lowest on the totem pole in Washington.

[Dan Pfeiffer]

We thought we were going insane. We were like, what. What is happening? What did. Did we miss something?

[Jon Favreau]

Well, the thing that was, what was so surprising, right, because we're talking about it and we're getting A lot of blowback online, but privately hearing from a lot of people being like, thank you guys for saying, glad you guys are out there saying this. We need people out there saying this.

[Alex Thompson]

And then the other thing I would say is that the argument is about whether or not he should be the nominee. But the truth of the matter is our reporting suggests that he could not be an effective president 24 7, which is what the job requires. And there's only one member of, there's only one elected Democratic official that I know of, and that's Congresswoman Marie Glusenkamp Perez in Washington State who actually said he shouldn't be the nominee. And to be honest, he probably shouldn't be president either.

[Dan Pfeiffer]

And although you said too, in the book, this also shocked me that out of the 200 plus people you guys talked to, there were very few who actually thought he could serve out a second term. Which that means that that would include senior White House staff, campaign staff, who told you that they did not think you could serve.

[F]

Yeah, they were like, the plan was to get to November 5th and figure it out later. I mean, we had one longtime Biden aide that, I mean, like, that was, I mean, if, you know, the right wing sometimes refers to, you know, the Trump derangement syndrome, mocking Democrats that I think actually very sincerely are opposed to Trump's agenda. But if you continue the metaphor, the biggest symptom is publicly telling everyone that Joe Biden could be president for another four years. And it just. And the people knew that he could not do the job he was running for. But there was such fear of Trump that they said, let's go. And longtime Biden people basically felt that eventually, if he had won, there would have eventually been some sort of constitutional crisis because clearly the people around him were not willing to cede power.

[Alex Thompson]

So we always say that almost all the interviews of the more than 200 we did for the book were after the election. We have to put in the stupid. Almost because of this one interview that Alex did with somebody and tell them what they told you.

[F]

I mean, they were honest. It was longtime Biden aide. And they said all he had to do was win and then only had to show proof of life every once in a while.

[Jon Favreau]

I feel like we've. I want to end on a light moment from the book. Let's let. Which is, it's a small.

[Dan Pfeiffer]

Do you have another clip?

[Jon Favreau]

No, this is a small moment, but.

[Alex Thompson]

We didn't even play my Obama, which is really good.

[F]

Yeah, that is true. His Obama is good. Not because I've listened, but because he does it all the time.

[Jon Favreau]

Save it for the sequel. But the.

[Alex Thompson]

Return of Hunter.

[Dan Pfeiffer]

You can do the voiceover for the second volume of Promised Land for Obama when he does.

[Jon Favreau]

But so the debate happens. And how does it come to be that Doug Emhoff is watching the debate with Rob Reiner? And then the debate ends. Rob Reiner, furious, starts berating Doug Emhoff.

[Dan Pfeiffer]

Poor Doug.

[Alex Thompson]

Well, I think it was more that he was. That Rob Reiner, who is a very excitable fella, was just screaming and he seemed to be yelling at Emhoff and he said, we're gonna lose our fucking democracy because of you. And Emhoff thought because of me, because of sweet Doug.

[Jon Favreau]

We can all agree that Doug is not to blame. Well, okay. That has to be it.

[Alex Thompson]

That's it.

[Jon Favreau]

That's it.

[Dan Pfeiffer]

Doug M. Hoff.

[Jon Favreau]

Now.

[Dan Pfeiffer]

Jake, Alex, thank you so much. Go buy original scent. That's our show for today. Woof. Long one. Love it. And Tommy and I will be back with a new show on Monday. If you want to listen to Pod Save America ad free or get access to our subscriber discord and exclusive podcasts, consider joining our Friends of the pod [e-mail] friends or subscribe on Apple Podcasts directly from the Pod Save America feed. Also, be sure to follow Pod Save America on TikTok, Instagram, Twitter and YouTube for full episodes, bonus content and more. And before you hit that next button, you can help boost this episode by leaving us a review and by sharing it with friends and family. Pod Save America is a crooked media production. Our producers are are David Toledo and Saul Rubin. Our associate producer is Farah Safari. Reid Churlin is our executive editor and Adrian Hill is our executive producer. The show is mixed and edited by Andrew Chadwick. Jordan Kanter is our sound engineer with audio support from Kyle Seglin and Charlotte Landis. Madelyn Herringer is our head of news and programming. Matt de Groat is our head of production. Naomi Sengel is our executive assistant. Thanks to our digital team, Elijah Cohn, Haley Jones, Ben Hethcote, Mia Kelman, Molly Lobel, Kiril Pelaviev and David Toles. Our production staff is proudly unionized with the Writers Guild of America East.