Trump's Crackdown on Dissent

Summary

Pod Save America: Trump's Crackdown on Dissent
Release Date: March 11, 2025

In this episode of Pod Save America, hosted by Jon Favreau, Jon Lovett, and Tommy Vietor, the discussion centers on former President Donald Trump's recent actions aimed at suppressing dissent and the broader implications for American democracy. The hosts delve into specific incidents, internal conflicts within Trump's administration, economic policies, and the Democratic Party's strategies in response to these developments. A significant highlight is an in-depth conversation with Senator Bernie Sanders, who provides his perspective on the current political climate.

---

1. Trump's Crackdown on Dissent

The episode begins by addressing the Trump administration's intensified efforts to stifle opposition, particularly within academic and legal institutions. A notable case discussed is the detention of Mahmoud Khalil, a lawful permanent resident and Columbia University graduate involved in pro-Gaza protests.

• Jon Favreau [03:55]:
  "Trump is bragging about the arrest and said that it's part of his promise to find and deport any student protesters who he believes have engaged in what he's calling, quote, pro terrorist, anti-Semitic, anti-American activity."

The hosts criticize the administration's move to cancel $400 million in grants and contracts to Columbia University, threatening its operational budget and academic freedom.

• Tommy Vietor [06:13]:
  "Isn't this a violation of the First Amendment? Yes, Ann. Yes, it is."

2. Executive Orders Targeting Public Service and Law Firms

Trump's executive actions extend beyond immigration, targeting the Public Service Loan Forgiveness Program and the law firm Perkins Coie, known for its Democratic ties.

• Jon Favreau [04:03]:
  "Trump also signed an executive order... to exclude anyone at any group that provides or supports gender-affirming care for minors, helps undocumented immigrants, or runs DEI programs."

• Jon Lovett [04:53]:
  "We have a lot of law firms that we're going to be going after. They were very, very dishonest."

These measures are seen as punitive actions against organizations and individuals opposing Trump's policies, raising significant concerns about overreach and the erosion of legal protections.

3. Internal Struggles within Trump's Administration

The discussion shifts to internal conflicts, notably involving Elon Musk, Marco Rubio, and Sean Duffy during a Cabinet meeting.

• Tommy Vietor [28:00]:
  "Elon accused Marco Rubio of not firing enough people... and Sean Duffy of trying to fire air traffic controllers."

• Jon Favreau [29:44]:
  "Trump announced that cabinet secretaries, not Elon, decide who gets hired and fired at their agencies."

These confrontations highlight tensions within the administration and Musk's volatile influence.

4. Economic Policies and Market Reactions

Trump's economic strategies, particularly the trade war involving tariffs against Canada and Mexico, are scrutinized for their destabilizing effects on the U.S. economy.

• Jon Lovett [20:43]:
  "Trump and his team have now called this a transition, an adjustment, a disturbance."

• Tommy Vietor [23:33]:
  "Trump did his tax cut first. So that juices the market, it juices the economy. Then he started going with the tariffs."

The hosts argue that Trump's inconsistent policies have led to market volatility and economic uncertainty, undermining investor confidence.

5. Democrat Strategy and Party Internal Debates

Turning to the Democratic response, the hosts examine the party's struggle with internal debates over strategies to counteract Trump's initiatives, particularly focusing on the proposed continuing resolution to avoid a government shutdown.

• Jon Lovett [46:01]:
  "Donald Trump is treating every dollar Congress has ever appropriated as money he can decide whether to spend or not."

• Tommy Vietor [46:37]:
  "If you want to cut spending, we will write a bill, otherwise we shouldn't exist anymore."

The discussion underscores the challenges Democrats face in presenting a unified front and effectively countering Trump's legislative maneuvers.

6. Conversation with Bernie Sanders

A pivotal segment features an extensive conversation with Senator Bernie Sanders, who articulates his concerns about the current trajectory of American politics under Trump's influence.

• Bernie Sanders [63:56]:
  "This is what the oligarchy is about... a government of the billionaires."

Sanders emphasizes the convergence of vast wealth and media control as threats to democratic institutions and the rule of law.

• Bernie Sanders [68:10]:
  "We can do it when people are mobilized and are prepared to stand up and fight back."

He advocates for grassroots activism and strategic mobilization to defeat policies that favor billionaires at the expense of working-class Americans.

• Bernie Sanders [68:37]:
  "In the short term, it means a solid defeat of this outrageous reconciliation bill, which would provide $1.1 trillion in tax breaks to the 1% and massive cuts to Medicaid, nutrition, and education programs."

Sanders also reflects on the importance of sustaining the progressive movement and countering authoritarian tendencies within the administration.

• Bernie Sanders [74:42]:
  "You can't let Trump and his friends turn this country into an oligarchy... They're not going to allow him to give tax breaks to billionaires and cut the programs that working class people need."

Conclusion

The episode concludes with the hosts reiterating the urgency of mobilization and solidarity in the face of Trump's aggressive policies. They emphasize the importance of strategic activism and maintaining democratic checks and balances to safeguard American freedoms.

• Jon Favreau [73:24]:
  "Do you think about it? Do you think about a successor?"

• Bernie Sanders [74:57]:
  "When people stand up and fight back... that's why we're here."

Overall, the episode serves as a comprehensive analysis of Trump's administration's measures to consolidate power, the resulting political and economic upheaval, and the imperative for democratic resilience and proactive engagement from citizens and political leaders alike.

---

Notable Quotes with Timestamps:

• Jon Favreau [03:55]:
  "Trump is bragging about the arrest... pro terrorist, anti-Semitic, anti-American activity."

• Tommy Vietor [06:13]:
  "Isn't this a violation of the First Amendment? Yes, Ann. Yes, it is."

• Jon Lovett [04:53]:
  "We have a lot of law firms that we're going to be going after. They were very, very dishonest."

• Tommy Vietor [28:00]:
  "Elon accused Marco Rubio of not firing enough people... and Sean Duffy of trying to fire air traffic controllers."

• Bernie Sanders [63:56]:
  "This is what the oligarchy is about... a government of the billionaires."

• Bernie Sanders [68:37]:
  "A solid defeat of this outrageous reconciliation bill... tax breaks to the 1% and massive cuts to Medicaid, nutrition, and education programs."

• Bernie Sanders [74:42]:
  "You can't let Trump and his friends turn this country into an oligarchy... give tax breaks to billionaires and cut the programs that working class people need."

This detailed summary captures the essence of the episode, highlighting key discussions, insights, and critical exchanges that underscore the current political tensions and the urgent need for democratic engagement.

Transcript

[Jon Lovett]

Today's presenting sponsor is Simplisafe Home Security. The clocks are springing forward. Hell yeah.

[Tommy Vitor]

Damn right.

[Jon Lovett]

And the country backward for sure. But let's talk about something that doesn't have to keep you up at night. Home Security SimpliSafe offers 24. 7 professional monitoring to give you peace of mind no matter the time of day. Isetup is simply safe, incredibly easy to do, works right out of the box, very easy to set up and once you do, completely reliable. Great app. Highly recommend it. We simplisafe Millions of Americans enjoy greater security and peace of mind every time they arm their system when heading out each morning or when locking up each night. Traditional security systems only take action after someone has already broken in that's too late. Simply saves active guard. Outdoor protection can help prevent break ins before they happen. If someone's lurking around or acting suspiciously, those agents see and talk to them in real time, activating spotlights and even contacting the police. All before they have a chance to get inside your home. No long term contracts, cancellation fees. Monitoring plans start affordably at around $1 per day, 60 day satisfaction guarantee or your money back. Visit simply safe.com crooked to claim 50 off a new system with a professional monitoring plan and get your first month free. That's simply safe.com crooked. There's no safe like Simplisafe.

[Tommy Vitor]

The last thing you want to hear when you need your auto insurance most is a robot with countless irrelevant menu options. Which is why with USAA auto insurance, you'll get great service that is easy and reliable, all at the touch of a button. Get a quote today. Restrictions apply.

[Jon Favreau]

Welcome to Pod Save America. I'm Jon Favreau.

[Jon Lovett]

I'm Jon Levitt.

[Tommy Vitor]

And Tommy Vitor.

[Jon Favreau]

On today's show, Donald Trump may plunge the country into a recession, but seems oddly okay with it, which seems like a problem for all of us that we'll talk about. We'll also get into the throwdown between Elon Musk and Trump's cabinet during a meeting where Elon reportedly fought with Marco Rubio over not firing enough people and Sean Duffy over Musk's attempt to fire air traffic controllers excited to fly this week. Then we'll cover Democrats debate over the party's shutdown strategy and basically everything else. And speaking of Democrats, Lovett will regale us with tales from his weekend trip to Michigan, where he caught up with Bernie Sanders on his Fight Oligarchy tour.

[Jon Lovett]

Hell yeah, I did. Look at you feeling the burn.

[Jon Favreau]

Quick little trip to Michigan One day.

[Jon Lovett]

One day.

[Jon Favreau]

But first we try not to alarm you all on the show unless it's necessary, but there are a few stories out there about the Trump regime cracking down on dissent and opposition that make you wonder how we'd react if this was happening in another country. So over the weekend, ICE agents with the federal government detained a legal permanent resident in New York, took him away from his very pregnant wife, threw him in a detention center in Louisiana, all despite the fact that they have not charged him with a crime. His name is Mahmoud Khalil and he's a Columbia graduate who's been the leader of the university's pro Gaza protests. Trump is bragging about the arrest and said that it's part of his promise to find and deport any student protesters who he believes have engaged in what he's calling, quote, pro terrorist, anti Semitic, anti American activity. The Trump administration also cited antisemitism as the reason they're canceling $400 million in grants and contracts to Columbia University. As a note, more than a quarter of the school's operating budget comes from federal grants. So this is gonna have a real impact on faculty, on students, on tuition costs, all the rest.

[Jon Lovett]

They could spend a little bit of that fucking endowment on.

[Tommy Vitor]

Way to get that.

[Jon Lovett]

I don't agree with what I was saying, you know, Anyway, continue.

[Jon Favreau]

Okay. Hope they don't come after Williams.

[Jon Lovett]

Listen, first they came for Columbia and I did not speak out for. I went to a small liberal arts college in northwestern Massachusetts that few people have heard of.

[Jon Favreau]

Trump also signed an executive order on Friday that orders the government's Public Service Loan Forgiveness Program. You get help with your student loans if you go into a career in public service. It's been around forever to exclude anyone at any group that provides or supports gender affirming, care for minors, helps undocumented immigrants, or runs DEI programs. On Thursday, he signed an executive order canceling all federal contracts, security clearances, and even access to federal buildings from Perkins Coie, a law firm that does a lot of work for Democrats. The courthouses are federal buildings, and so which is where they would practice law.

[Tommy Vitor]

That's a good point.

[Jon Favreau]

Last month, Trump signed a similar order canceling security clearances for anyone at the law firm of Covington and Burlington because they did some work with Jack Smith. Here's Trump talking about this decision with Fox News's Maria Bartiromo on Sunday morning.

[Jon Lovett]

We have a lot of law firms that we're going to be going after.

[Jon Favreau]

Because they were very dishonest people.

[Jon Lovett]

They were very, very dishonest.

[Jon Favreau]

I could go point after point after point.

[Jon Lovett]

And it was so bad for our country. And we have a lot of law firms that we're going after.

[Jon Favreau]

Cool. Very cool. Let's start with the Columbia situation. And I should note that right before we recorded, a judge has temporarily blocked Khalil's deportation until there's an actual hearing, which I believe is scheduled for Wednesday, at least the first of maybe a couple. How big of a deal is this?

[Tommy Vitor]

I think. I think individually, all these stories are a huge deal. And collectively, it's like it's an assault on free speech like we haven't seen in a very long time. That should worry everybody, starting with Columbia. I mean, sometimes when Trump does something that's so far over the line, conservatives react honestly for about 24 hours, you notice this. That happened in this case. Ann Coulter tweeted, there's almost no one I don't want to deport, but unless they've committed a crime, Isn't this a violation of the First Amendment? Yes, Ann. Yes, it is. And I think with free speech issues, it just. In the abstract, we should be agnostic about the topic, the people involved, whether you agree or disagree with what they said, whether you find it offensive or not, if a lawful permanent resident can be rounded up by ICE agents or the Department of Homeland Security, thrown into jail without charges, without even being charged with or accused of a crime, that should worry everybody.

[Jon Lovett]

Yeah. So it's a small detail, but they didn't have to send this person to Louisiana.

[Jon Favreau]

No.

[Jon Lovett]

There's detention facilities. There's ways of processing him in New York, New Jersey. So this is like.

[Jon Favreau]

And originally they did have him in New York and New Jersey, and then they transferred him to Louisiana.

[Jon Lovett]

So it's meant to be punitive. He's a lawful permanent resident for very good reason. Lawful permanent residents are protected by the First Amendment the same way we're all protected by the First Amendment. There are ways in which the government can revoke somebody's immigration status, but it's not as punishment for speech you don't like. And by the way, it's not even as punishment for speech you don't like. That may be associated with protests in which some people broke the rules or broke the law or what have you. You charge somebody with a crime, Right. If he broke the law, you charged that person with whatever that crime is. That due process then may ultimately re. Result in somebody losing immigra status. Something that happens all the time if you get fraud when you apply. Right. There's lots of ways immigration status can be revoked but no, you can't just say, oh, this person is participating in protests. And it's very Orwellian. Orwellian language. And I, I like, I, I never say Orwellian because it's been such a cliche and just overused phrase. But like to say it was for protests aligned to terrorist organizations. Deeply strange.

[Jon Favreau]

One of the ways that you can revoke a green card, and by the way, like you said, the State Department cannot just revoke a green card on its own. It has to go through a hearing. There has to be an immigration judge involved. One of the ways you can revoke a green card is if someone is a member of a terrorist organization or an extremist organization or has provided support. Right. Is a threat to the United States because they're providing support to a terrorist organization. So clearly the White House wants to say that anyone who participated in these protests is Hamas or providing support to Hamas. But again, no crime has been charged and no evidence has been provided that this person provided any kind of material support to Hamas or was part of Hamas or anything like that.

[Tommy Vitor]

I think most terrorism prosecutions are providing material support. So if they had any evidence of that, they would charge this kid with a crime.

[Jon Favreau]

Exactly, exactly. And by the way, the way this happened is he was coming home and outside his apartment, there were four plainclothes agents and they identified themselves to him and his wife. They asked who he was, and then they said, you're coming with us. The his wife, who's eight months pregnant, ran to get his green card because they said, oh, we're taking away your student visa. And she's like, well, he's not a student visa holder, he's a green card holder. And then the ICE agent is on the phone with someone, is like, oh, we're taking him in anyway.

[Tommy Vitor]

Yeah, they're doing this on the fly.

[Jon Favreau]

Yeah.

[Tommy Vitor]

I will say I made the general point about free speech. I also think in this specific instance, like as someone who's talked publicly about Gaza and Israel and the two state solution for a very long time, there is a long term sustained effort to police speech on this specific topic, especially to define criticism of Israel as anti Semitic or activism that protests Israel, like the BDS movement as anti Semitic. And so Trump is building off of not just those efforts to punish protesters, but now they're going to use this as a pretext to punish universities. And just to do a little bit of what about ism? Naftali Bennett, the former Prime Minister of Israel, was giving a speech at Harvard Business School. The moderator Made a point about how, hey, if you disrupt this, you're going to get kicked out. And he goes, I think we'll give them a pager, referring to the Hamas operation that blew up thousands of Hezbollah operatives. Just imagine if a pro Palestinian. I don't like that speech. I don't like that speech very much, but it's clearly a joke. Imagine if a pro Palestinian protester said, if you protest, we'll come after you with our hang gliders or we'll put a bomb on your bus. Like, now, is that kind of comment going to get you deported? Is that material support for Hamas? How are we. How are we thinking about this?

[Jon Favreau]

Well, imagine if an Israeli citizen was here and has a green card, is a legal permanent resident, and said, you know, I hope Netanyahu finishes the job. I hope they kill everyone in Gaza, and then that person is just deported or detained in the middle of the night, sent to Louisiana, and we just don't hear from them. We don't know. And now imagine there's over 13 million legal residents in America of all nationalities, from all backgrounds. And so if you play this out, then you imagine ICE just going up to legal residents, because now they all know who they are, where they are. Right. You go up to a legal resident and you say, it depends on what their background is. Oh, you're Ukrainian. Oh, you must be with some, you know, the Nazi group in Ukraine that Elon Musk is always talking about. Or, oh, you're a Latino. You must be with Trende Jaguar or whatever, one of the cartels, Trende Agua, that they've now labeled terrorist organizations. And now we have legal permanent residents in this country who've done everything right, who are applying for citizenship, just like, you know, you're supposed to do. And now we're just going to detain them.

[Jon Lovett]

Yeah.

[Jon Favreau]

And send them away.

[Jon Lovett]

And allow me to put on my Jew hat for a moment. I'm literally. I actually. This is an accent. I'm actually wearing a deli hat. So it is. I'm actually wearing a.

[Jon Favreau]

Literally.

[Jon Lovett]

I literally wearing a Jew hat today. The antidepressant.

[Tommy Vitor]

I condemn that speech.

[Jon Lovett]

Yeah, condemn it all you want, but. And you know, look, you know, Tommy's point. If let's say that this person had a bunch of anti Semitic comments. Protected. Anti Semitism is protected speech. I don't like it. I don't like a lot of what I heard at some of these protests that I do think go from anti Zionism into pure anti Semitism on the regular, but like to See, the Anti Defamation League put out a comment with this sort of, to be sure at the end, about everyone deserving due process. But ultimately coming down on the side of what the Trump administration is doing is so fucking stupid. The idea that, like, oh, yeah, like, you know, be a kind of a patron to what Trump's doing. Be like a, a good Jew who supports the regime that'll protect us in the end. The thing that, like, protects Jewish people from antisemitism is the culture of freedom, a legal order that protects freedom, including the freedom of green card holders, not just citizens, but non citizens in this country. That protection is ultimately what makes Jews safe in America. The idea that going down a road in which people think it is defensible for the Trump administration to come knocking on somebody's door who has not been accused of a crime, to revoke their immigration status for speech and protests you don't like is so. It's obviously morally reprehensible, but it is so fucking stupid in the long term that makes every Jewish person in America less safe. Think about the road we're going on. It's like there are posters in the schools. They say, first they came for the socialists. What do they think comes after that? And then they were cool. Like, it's so stupid. It's so, like, it's so obvious and like we, we like. I just. There's all these people that have pretended to care about history and to learn from history and think about history, and it's happening right in front of our faces, and they're too either cynical or naive to realize that they're the people not doing the right thing in the moment when they're supposed to.

[Jon Favreau]

I would also say that this is why, right? I would guess this is why the Trump administration singled this man out and started with this conflict. Because Donald Trump doesn't actually give a fuck about Gaza or the conflict. It's just another thing he's dealing with. But they know that tensions are so high around this that they can get a ridiculous fucking reaction like that from the adl, and then they will limit the protest, the breadth of the protest in this country about what they're doing, and then they can go to the next step. Right? That's why they're like, well, this is sort of a lightning rod. And the way we know that is the White House. Not only did Donald Trump brag about it on Truth Social, the White House official White House account tweeted Shalom Mahmoud and is bragging about it, which is also, you know, to chill other speech from anyone who opposes the administration on any issue.

[Tommy Vitor]

I enjoy the irony of this all happening. Right. As we're learning that the White House has been holding direct talks with Hamas about getting hostages out of Gaza, which I support, by the way. I think it's the right thing to do. I think it's ridiculous we have to go through Qatar or some other carve out of conversations with the group holding an American citizens.

[Jon Favreau]

But I don't know, maybe the people engaging in the direct talk should be deported.

[Tommy Vitor]

I mean, if Joe Biden did this, Lindsey Graham would have filed articles of impeachment on the spot.

[Jon Favreau]

That's right. So what do you think the whole crusade against the law firms is about, huh?

[Tommy Vitor]

I think it should have a chilling effect on these law firms. I mean, they want these lawyers to not want to take cases where they sue the Trump administration or oppose them in any way. And then in some instances, it's just an act of vengeance. Like going after Jack Smith.

[Jon Lovett]

Yeah. I think the worst case scenario for the Trump administration is this gets shot down pretty quickly while costing Perkins Coie a bunch of money. Having to hire another law firm to represent all this is expensive. All then this makes life more difficult. He's just punishing his enemies, and he doesn't need it to go further than this for it to have been effective. And the further it goes, the more fun he's having.

[Jon Favreau]

But I think that the point that Tommy just raised is like, it's going beyond the intent is to go beyond punishing his enemies, because if other firms that are not his enemies end up taking a case that is suing the government, then Trump can go after them, or the other thing can happen is, so there's a big law firm, right? And they take a case suing the government. And the big law firm also has other clients that are big corporate clients that have business before the government. And now they're like, do I really want to take that case that's suing the government? Because the Trump administration might come after us, or I might lose this corporate client because now our firm is lightning around as well. That's what a lot of these lawyers are. At least that's what they were telling the Wall Street Journal, but they were saying it quietly because now they're all afraid to speak.

[Jon Lovett]

I think they got to see how it plays out. Right. Cause Perkins Coey hired Williams O'Connelly, which is a bipartisan firm that has some Trump people in it. And some of this is like, does our law firm have a guy that can Call a guy to say, leave us alone. You know what I mean? There's, like, sort of like, relationship thing. There's a relationship thing here. So some of this, I think it's like. It is. Yeah. I think we just have to see how it plays out.

[Tommy Vitor]

Like, there were reports early on that the Trump people were telling big firms, do not hire people out of the Biden doj, especially the Jack Smith team. So this is sort of part of a longer process of just trying to, like, keep really good lawyers from opposing them in any way.

[Jon Favreau]

And again, we just talked about people being detained. So you get, you know, the Trump administration comes after you for whatever, a defamation case of this or that they're trying to. Whatever they do, and you try to find a good lawyer. And now some of these big firms are like, do I want to take this case on? I don't know. I mean, that's. That's the effect of this.

[Tommy Vitor]

Yeah.

[Jon Favreau]

And good for Williams and Connolly for jumping in to defend Perkins Coie, because a lot of these law firms should, like, band together and make a public statement. And there had been some. The Journal reported that there had been some attempt to do that, and they haven't wanted to do that yet because they were a little nervous.

[Jon Lovett]

Yeah. I can't believe these lawyers are looking out for their own interests against these other law firms that they compete with on a daily basis on behalf of the sleaziest corporations on planet Earth.

[Tommy Vitor]

I do worry about this politically. I mean, on its face, it seems like such a brazen First Amendment violation, but I don't know. Historically speaking, this country has not always been sympathetic to protesters. I always think about how after Kent State, 58% of the country blamed the students, 11% of the country blamed the National Guard troops who shot them. The sentiment was, they got what they deserve. So I do worry that, I don't know, maybe the Trump people think that going after a bunch of Gaza protesters will be good politics for them and that they might know something we don't. It makes me very nervous.

[Jon Favreau]

Me, too. And I do think whether it's the law firms, whether it's what they're doing to some of these Gaza protesters, everyone just has to be aware that this is going on and that the more people who speak up and the more people who stand in solidarity with the people who are targeted, whether you disagree with them or not, whether you're like them or not, whether you think that you like, the harder it's gonna be for the Trump administration to pull this off. They win if they start doing this and picking out people left tonight and then everyone else is like, well, I'm not gonna say anything. There was this whole New York Times story over the weekend too about like, how all these people who spoke out in the first term against Trump are quiet now and a lot of them went on background. A lot of people wouldn't say anything. Yeah, it's the wrong way to handle this. Yes.

[Jon Lovett]

Well, it's also just like, take a step back. Why do they think it's such good politics to chill free speech and go against protests? Like, why do they think it's such good politics to go against foreign aid? Why do they think it's such a good politics to pull these just like completely, like these moves are just like completely inathoment to what America's supposed to represent. It's because they don't believe that there's enough people that are going to make the argument successfully to the country and that people will go with their kind of base, gut animal instincts on issue after issue. They're counting on that.

[Tommy Vitor]

I think they also think that they can make it about the specifics of the case or what someone said or did versus the principal. And we have to focus on the principal.

[Jon Favreau]

Yes, exactly.

[Jon Lovett]

Pod Save America is brought to you by Helix. Tell your audience about your experience with Helix mattresses. Don't mind if I do. I have a Dawn Lux. It's a super comfortable mattress. Look, maybe it's because Donald Trump is president, maybe it's because I'm just getting old, but man, nothing makes me happier than having a dinner that's over by like 6:30 and knowing that I can watch 1 hour, 2 hour, 3 hours, 4. 4 hours of fucking excellent content from the comfort of my Helix bed. It's a dream.

[Tommy Vitor]

It is a great so comfortable.

[Jon Lovett]

Scrolling on my computer, watching a screen, watching another screen. All because of Helix. So how will you know which Helix mattress works best for you and your body? Take the Helix Sleep Quiz. Find your perfect mattress in under two minutes. As I said, I landed on the Dawnlux when I took the Helix Sleep quiz because it's firm, because I'm a side sleeper, stomach sleeper, back sleeper. The helix lineup offers 20 unique mattresses. The award winning luxe and ultra premium elite collections. Helix plus, which is a mattress for big and tall sleepers. Helix Kids, a mattress for growing bodies endorsed by child sleep experts. Helix knows there's no better way to test out a new mattress than by sleeping on it in your own home. That's why they offer a 100 night trial and a 10 to 15 year warranty to try out your new Helix mattress. Plus your personalized mattress is shipped straight to your door free of charge. Go to helixsleep.com crooked for 20% off site wide. That's helixsleep.com crooked for twenty percent off site wide. Helixsleep.com crooked auto insurance can all seem.

[Bernie Sanders]

The same until it comes time to use it.

[Tommy Vitor]

So don't get stuck paying more for less to USAA Auto Insurance and you could start saving money in no time. Get a quote today restrictions apply.

[Jon Lovett]

USA.

[Jon Favreau]

During that Maria Bartiromo interview, Trump also got lots of questions on the economy, especially about his on again, off again trade war. Let's listen. Are you expecting a recession this year?

[Jon Lovett]

I hate to predict things like that. There is a period of transition because what we're doing is very big.

[Jon Favreau]

We're bringing wealth back to America.

[Jon Lovett]

That's a big thing. And there are always periods of it takes a little time. It takes a little time.

[Jon Favreau]

You said, look, we're going to have a disruption, but we're okay with that. Is that what you meant?

[Jon Lovett]

The stock market going down was the disruption.

[Bernie Sanders]

What other disruption were you alluding to?

[Jon Lovett]

Look, what I have to do is build a strong country. You can't really watch the stock market. If you look at China, they have 100 year perspective. We have a quarter, we go by quarters.

[Bernie Sanders]

That's true.

[Jon Lovett]

And you can't go by that.

[Jon Favreau]

You have to do what's right. Guess someone's out of the prediction business. So on Friday's show, we talked about how Trump backed down for now on most of the tariffs against Canada and Mexico, though he's apparently sticking with tariffs on foreign steel and aluminum. That said are set to go into effect on Wednesday. China's retaliatory tariffs on American agricultural products have now gone into effect. The Canadians are also hitting us with some retaliatory tariffs and their new prime minister, Mark Carney said in a speech Sunday that America wants to, quote, destroy our way of life. And reaching for a hockey metaphor said, quote, we didn't ask for this fight, but Canadians are always ready when someone else drops the gloves.

[Tommy Vitor]

He found it. He found it wasn't reaching. You got that one. What's icing when you shoot it from your zone all the way into the other zone without someone touching it after two lines or something like that.

[Jon Favreau]

Something.

[Jon Lovett]

Yeah. Thank you.

[Tommy Vitor]

It's a very boring penalty.

[Jon Favreau]

The market seemed less enthused by this trade war and continued a three week sell off on Monday amid Fears of the recession that Trump has refused to rule out. What do you think, guys? So Trump and his team have now called this a transition, an adjustment, a disturbance. And Scott Besant called it a detox.

[Jon Lovett]

A detox was the one I really liked.

[Jon Favreau]

It's also funny, by the way, that.

[Jon Lovett]

I just love, you know, just we need like a few months of just sort of clean economic recession to kind of just get a lot of these, these growth toxins out of our body.

[Jon Favreau]

Dry, dry 2025. Yeah, yeah, it's a, just, it's, it doesn't seem great.

[Tommy Vitor]

Correction, icing is when you shoot it from your side of the center line all the way past the opposing team's goal line.

[Jon Lovett]

Icing and offsides have never made sense to me. And offside can. I know it's a different story to get.

[Tommy Vitor]

But you got to get them the puck before they cross. Anyway, my buddy Dan Nathan is a very smart finance guy, made this point to me in 2017. Trump did his tax cut first. So that juices the market, it juices the economy. Then he started going with the tariffs. Now they've got it all back ass word. He started the trade war. He's tanking the markets, weakening the economy, he's weakening his political standing and then he's going to try to ramp through this massive tax cut that no one actually thinks will be paid for. It feels like a mistake.

[Jon Favreau]

I thought Trump was supposed to be especially sensitive to stock market fluctuations. Oh, he is like what do we think happened here?

[Jon Lovett]

I'm a little, honestly like, my, my like late night worry is that like he's so now heavy on fucking cryptocurrency that like the more unstable the American economy gets, the more he's sort of hedged against.

[Tommy Vitor]

That's not what's like bitcoin is like basically correlated with the NASDAQ and the market. Like it's tanking right now.

[Jon Lovett]

Yes. I'm just trying to explain why he seems to be a little less worried about the markets these days. I think he's full of shit. I think he's still worried about it.

[Tommy Vitor]

And he's just like very mad that his in house interviewer is not asking him the right questions.

[Jon Favreau]

I think it's very funny that on the same day that he does the Bar Romo interview, Howard Lutnicks on the Sunday shows and said this country would absolutely not have a recession. Absolutely not.

[Jon Lovett]

Well, that's right. The only thing you can say you're, you know, if you say that you're sort of in Confidence game.

[Jon Favreau]

Yeah, somewhat. One person close to the administration talked to Politico for quite a while about all this, and they said he has to acknowledge there's going to be some pain. He can't say everything's perfect. If he said everything's perfect, people would think he lost his mind.

[Jon Lovett]

The other part of this, too, is I talked about this with Bernie just a little bit, but when the Bush people did their tax cuts, they were smart enough to understand that politically you finance it with deficits and then you use those deficits to later claim you need to cut spending. It was called starving the beast. They understood that, like going out there and saying, we're going to cut taxes for the richest people in America, but in a deficit neutral way, which means cutting a bunch of services also just makes your job that much harder. So, like, they're not even. Yeah, they're not like. Like they're not. They're not politically or like, economically doing the things that you think they would do if their goal was ultimately to, like, get the economy hot so that they can kind of have better politics to pull all the other shenanigans they're trying to pull.

[Tommy Vitor]

Hot ass, hot ass economy.

[Jon Favreau]

It's also possible that they don't know what the fuck they're doing.

[Tommy Vitor]

Yeah.

[Jon Favreau]

Because it's not just the tariffs themselves that is causing the markets and businesses to start freaking out a little bit. It's the uncertainty around the tariffs. Like, he. He threatens tariffs on the.

[Tommy Vitor]

Get off again.

[Jon Favreau]

Imposes tariffs. Yeah, right. And then he takes them back. Clearly. Like, he backed away from them on Friday, Thursday, whenever. It was. Because he, you know, saw the reaction was like, all right, I'm going to back off. But it didn't really calm things because everyone's like, well, who the fuck knows what's going to happen, right?

[Tommy Vitor]

Like salmon, Diane, the economy.

[Jon Lovett]

Ross and Will, they are wonderful.

[Jon Favreau]

Sim and Diane.

[Jon Lovett]

Oh, man. Are semiconductors America's lobster.

[Jon Favreau]

Here's the thing is, Lovett and I would have gone with Ross and Rachel because we're millennials.

[Tommy Vitor]

I went with both.

[Jon Lovett]

But he's Gen X.

[Jon Favreau]

He's Gen X.

[Jon Lovett]

It's fun.

[Tommy Vitor]

He's Gen X.

[Jon Favreau]

He and Dan will be talking about Sam and Diane.

[Jon Lovett]

He still thinks of Frasier as a.

[Tommy Vitor]

Spinoff catch and strays. Poor Dan getting a shout out here.

[Jon Favreau]

Yeah, look, Dan's like a real Gen X.

[Jon Lovett]

Look, here's the thing. Like, this show. This show is about a cross generational commerce conversation between Tommy and Dan as like, kind of our elders who we grew up like, by the way, what's crazy is like we grew up like learning from them.

[Jon Favreau]

Yeah.

[Jon Lovett]

And now we sit at this table, really.

[Tommy Vitor]

Six foot guy talks with his five, four buddy, his five, ten friend.

[Jon Lovett]

Wow.

[Jon Favreau]

Wow. Also, I just want to point out.

[Tommy Vitor]

That Trump has single handedly resuscitated the Liberal Party in Canada. I'm trying to move us on.

[Jon Favreau]

Oh, yeah.

[Tommy Vitor]

And we're reigniting nationalism all through North America. Claudia Shane, bomb down. Mexico has an 85% approval rating. I mean, can you tell us about that?

[Jon Favreau]

What's with this new guy? I know this is Mark Carney, Save the world.

[Tommy Vitor]

But former bank of Canada had kind of came out of nowhere. He wasn't in politics like Trudeau, basically the hero.

[Jon Favreau]

Is he the hero we've been looking for?

[Tommy Vitor]

I don't know, he could just be another neolib. But like, Trudeau was head of the party for 11 years. He was prime minister for nine years. He stepped down. When was that? January. So they do an intra party process. 150,000 people decide the next head of the party. So then you become the de facto prime minister. And so the election is supposed to be in October, but everyone figured they would call a snap election because the Conservatives, this guy Pierre Poliev, who's sort of like the Trump of Canada, was up 20 points. And then fucking Trump put in place all these tariffs and they're booing the national anthem and hockey games. And now the Liberal Party is back and it's like not really clear how it's all going to shake out.

[Jon Favreau]

Imagine if, if Biden could have called a snap election during brat summer. We had a couple of those. The, the other depends on the poll. Wasn't there. There was like one week where they were ahead maybe.

[Jon Lovett]

Or was it just the vibes? Or was it just the vibes?

[Tommy Vitor]

Yeah. Election at our convention.

[Jon Lovett]

The, the other part of this too is it's like even take Trump on his own terms. Like, okay, somebody out there was thinking about where they're gonna put a factory to make some kind of a widget. And it's like, originally I was gonna embark on a 10 year project to build a factory abroad, but now that there were tariffs on Canada for 36 hours, I think I'm gonna put it in Ohio. Makes no fucking sense.

[Jon Favreau]

No one can plan anything. The funding cuts. Right. Like there's a lot of businesses that have federal contracts. They get funding from the government. Right. And so you have that, you have the tariffs. No one can plan anything. Of course there's uncertainty.

[Tommy Vitor]

One of his recent Demands was he was telling leaders in Mexico and Canada that, that they have to send factories to the US like, what political leader can make that choice to shut down a bunch of jobs in your own country?

[Jon Lovett]

Yeah.

[Jon Favreau]

Trump also retruthed a piece by Charlie Kirk over the weekend titled Shut up about egg prices. So that's where we are now, huh? Shut up about egg prices.

[Jon Lovett]

That was the kind of, in the liberal commentary that was a bit of an argument made on the left for quite some months.

[Jon Favreau]

I know.

[Jon Lovett]

Before the election.

[Jon Favreau]

I know.

[Jon Lovett]

Shut the fuck up about the egg prices. And we' Right, look, look how well.

[Jon Favreau]

That, look, look where that got us.

[Jon Lovett]

And now here we are, like debating the finer parts of immigration status.

[Jon Favreau]

And then we were like, if Joe Biden did that, like, yeah, no, that. The problem is we're, we're shut up about now.

[Jon Lovett]

The yolk's on us.

[Jon Favreau]

You know what? We're just going to leave it there. That's it. That's a perfect segue.

[Tommy Vitor]

Beautiful button on that one.

[Jon Favreau]

Trump's other big economic policy destroying the federal government, also hitting some speed bumps. We talked about Trump reigning in Elon on Friday's show, but that was before we got all the juicy details about the Cabinet meeting. Where it all. Maggie Haberman and Jonathan Swan report that Elon accused Marco Rubio of not firing enough people at the State Department and insinuated he's good on TV but not much else. Marco got mad, said Elon was lying, and then went back and forth until Trump had to jump in and defend Marco. Elon also fought with Real World Road Rule star turned Transportation Secretary Sean Duffy.

[Jon Lovett]

Who, by the way, is the hero in this piece.

[Tommy Vitor]

Yeah.

[Jon Favreau]

Yes. The hero who accused Doge of trying to fire air traffic controllers. And then Elon's like, that's a lie. We did not try to give me the names. And he's like, I can't give you the names because I prevented you from firing them, idiot. He didn't say it, but he should have. Should have. This all ended with Trump announcing that cabinet secretaries, not Elon, decide who gets hired and fired at their agencies. And then they all tried to make up and pretend they're best pals on social media. Now, I initially thought Elon would be asked about all this when he sat down for a Fox Business interview with Larry Kudlow on Monday. My original segue into this was, and here's what he said when asked about it today, but there is no question it was just a 15 minute tongue bath from Larry Kudlow.

[Jon Lovett]

I don't like tongue bath. It was a tongue bath, but it's an uncomfortable phrase.

[Jon Favreau]

We should feel uncomfortable.

[Jon Lovett]

I don't like it.

[Jon Favreau]

Try watching the interview.

[Jon Lovett]

But the cat gives a kitten, right?

[Jon Favreau]

Anyway, here's how it sounded. I mean, frankly, I can't believe I'm here doing this.

[Tommy Vitor]

It's kind of bizarre. You know how to read an income.

[Jon Lovett]

Statement and you know how to read a balance sheet.

[Bernie Sanders]

You've had some business experience.

[Tommy Vitor]

I'm kidding. But you know about this stuff.

[Bernie Sanders]

I mean, what do you.

[Jon Lovett]

How are you running your other businesses?

[Jon Favreau]

With great difficulty. Yeah.

[Jon Lovett]

I mean, producers are yelling at me to get out. I don't want to end this interview.

[Bernie Sanders]

Because too much fun.

[Jon Lovett]

That question.

[Tommy Vitor]

How are you running your businesses on a day when the Tesla Stock is down 15% and Twitter had like a multi hour outage? Is actually very funny.

[Jon Favreau]

Eli did seem a little down during the interview. Did not seem like he's on the.

[Jon Lovett]

Wrong, wrong curve of whatever's going on inside of that fucking body.

[Jon Favreau]

I know it's a long way from the chainsaw and the legalized comedy and all that kind of stuff. He was very subdued.

[Jon Lovett]

He also was like, what happened to the guy that had become meme? You know, looking very become meme, Elon?

[Jon Favreau]

Well, he did try a little bit of memeification at the beginning because little, little Internet jokes because he was like. And you know, your businesses have, have been, have been targeted. There were, there were shots fired at Tesla dealerships. And all of a sudden Elon just interrupts and he goes, shots fired, but not that, like, get it like on the Internet. Shots fired.

[Jon Lovett]

I missed that because pundit took a Austin sandwich off of his desk. That's why I missed the first few seconds.

[Jon Favreau]

How fun was that New York Times story? We deserve every word of that.

[Jon Lovett]

I love, first of all, I love that story. Everybody should take a moment and go, for Maggie.

[Jon Favreau]

Good for John.

[Jon Lovett]

Good for Maggie. Good for John. So there's just one point I wanted to make about this, which was excellent. It was written in a really strange way because there's lots of what seem like direct quotes from the piece, but they're not in quotes. It's like, it's not written like a New York Times story. It's written like a book. And it made me think two things. One, mm, could there be? Could there be? And two, are these people already recording each other?

[Tommy Vitor]

I hope so.

[Jon Lovett]

And like, if I, if I was somebody in that room reading that story, I would be very paranoid about how that story was written, basically. As if somebody was in the room, transcribing it without any reference to a recording or who the. There's no. Like, some sources say Duffy said this, and some sources Monkey must say that. It is a narrative as if they were in the room. And I just love that for them and for us.

[Tommy Vitor]

And so it was a Cabinet meeting, but then there's a whole bunch of people who sit in this sort of outer ring around the Cabinet table. So I don't know if that's staff from the agency. Like, does the Secretary of Defense get one staffer or is it all White House staff?

[Jon Favreau]

No, it's White House staff.

[Tommy Vitor]

All White House staff.

[Jon Favreau]

Yeah, it's the leak. It's usually like senior staff and then. And then the staff around the table.

[Tommy Vitor]

I think I just wanted to briefly remark upon how Marco Rubio continuing to be, like, the saddest, smallest man in government because he desperately wanted to be president. It's not sure. Not clear why he doesn't have, like, big ideas he's trying to put forward, but he wanted to be president. Now he has like the. The big time cabinet job.

[Jon Lovett]

Right?

[Tommy Vitor]

It's like, top three.

[Jon Lovett]

Absolutely.

[Tommy Vitor]

Treasury, Defense. And he's. Yet he's still getting kicked around by Elon Musk and then even his own team. Remember a couple months ago, we learned that his spokeswoman had talked shit about him on Twitter and he had to hire her anyway. Then there was a story over the weekend, CNN reported that the undersecretary for Public Diplomacy deleted a bunch of tweets where he called Marco Rubio a low IQ individual and accused him of going to gay phone parties. You guys see this?

[Jon Favreau]

I sure did.

[Tommy Vitor]

This guy still works at the State Department.

[Jon Lovett]

There was a moment. People just need to understand. There was a. There was this brief frenzy on the Internet that Marco Rubio had attended gay.

[Tommy Vitor]

Sex parties, which is just not true.

[Jon Favreau]

Foam parties.

[Jon Lovett]

Foam parties.

[Jon Favreau]

Well, there's a picture of him with foam around him and some other. And some men. Now, apparently there was just a regular foam party and they just tried to insinuate foam parties are disgusting. Yeah, they are disgusting.

[Tommy Vitor]

That foam is so dirty.

[Jon Favreau]

No one needs to be at a foam party.

[Jon Lovett]

Look, this is an episode about freedom and not judging, not yucking other people's yum, whether it be a foam party or an anti Israel protest, regardless whether.

[Tommy Vitor]

Or not he was at a phone party. Then he gets attacked in this meeting in front of the entire cabinet by Elon. Accuse him not doing anything. And then Monday morning, he has to send out the tweets like I'm a good boy, and I did what I'm told, and I canceled 83% of the programs at USAID. But the remaining 18% get transferred to State, which. That math does not add up.

[Jon Favreau]

I think that our Secretary of State is the result of an elaborate prank that the whole Trump MAGA world has been playing on him. Like, we're gonna make him Secretary of State. We're gonna make him think he's. He's got a big job now, and then we're gonna put all the people who hate him as his staff, and then we're gonna sic Elon Musk on him.

[Jon Lovett]

We're gonna make him prom king, and he's gonna walk out on that stage. Pig's blood.

[Jon Favreau]

I feel like we are not even at the beginning of the humiliation of.

[Jon Lovett]

Marco Rubio, you know, people made this point. I don't. Somebody on social media was making this point. And I'm sorry to whoever it was that both J.D. vance and Marco Rubio have, like, fundamentally changed their worldview to fit with Donald Trump. But J.D. vance does it in such a convincing way, and Marco Rubio just can't. And he can't, because you can just see it in his eyes. The person in there that doesn't agree. He can't kill that part of himself. And I don't know if that speaks well of him or poorly of him, but I'm loving every second of it.

[Jon Favreau]

My view on this is that. And I've changed my view over time. I think JD Vance believes it. I think JD Vance has, like. Is entirely bought in. And he's got all the authoritarian tendencies. He loves Orban and Hungary and all the rest of it. Like, he is. He's. He's part of the project.

[Jon Lovett]

I do think that there. Yeah. With Vance, like, there's this sort of great salesman quality that he has. Like, he. He always has this tone in. In interviews. Like, I don't understand how anyone could be so stupid as not to understand why we are. Right. And he was doing it about why the mineral deal in Ukraine weighed more. He got in trouble.

[Tommy Vitor]

Crazy.

[Jon Lovett]

He got in trouble. Of course it's crazy. He had trouble for saying. For insulting French and British troops. But the point he was making, he was making with such a kind of strident, like, arrogance.

[Jon Favreau]

You can tell he used to be an establishment cuck because he's very scoldy.

[Jon Lovett]

Yeah, yeah.

[Tommy Vitor]

No. The need for rare earth minerals has prevented conflicts in the Congo for decades now. There's never been a war in the Congo because of rare Earths that we mine there.

[Jon Lovett]

Yeah, but I always just, I think he's a salesman at heart selling. And I think he, like any great salesman, he sells himself first. And so I do think he like starts to really adapt these views. I do.

[Tommy Vitor]

There's this clip of Rubio from 2016 going around. We should just insert it, right?

[Jon Favreau]

Yes. He's running for president, so no matter what, he won't be a dictator unless our republic completely crumbles, which I don't anticipate it will.

[Jon Lovett]

And if you listen to the way.

[Jon Favreau]

He describes himself and what he's going.

[Jon Lovett]

To do, he's going to single handedly do this and do that without regard for whether it's legal or not.

[Jon Favreau]

No matter what happens in this election for years to come, there are many people on the right, in the media and voters at large that are going to be having to explain and justify how they fell into the, this trap of supporting Donald Trump because this is not going to end well one way or the other.

[Tommy Vitor]

How great was that? Everyone? Also, I just wanted, I don't know that people realize Tesla's stock is down 50% 5 0% in the last three months by the dip. And it's because Elon's like, he's a master at manipulating the stock market. It is all smoke and mirrors. It is not revenue. It's him trying to convince investors that he's going to sell the next fleet of robo taxis and autonomous robots and stuff.

[Jon Lovett]

And I'll just, and I'll just say this, that I don't let cybertrucks in. I just don't let them in.

[Jon Favreau]

Into where?

[Jon Lovett]

Into my lane. I'm not kind to the cybertrucks on the road. I'm not. I don't break any rules.

[Tommy Vitor]

You used to own one.

[Jon Lovett]

Well, I had a, I had a Tesla. You own a cybertruck?

[Jon Favreau]

Yeah.

[Jon Lovett]

Yes, of course. I did, of course, have a cybertruck.

[Jon Favreau]

Until Tommy and I, you know, put graffiti on it. Right.

[Jon Lovett]

Well, it couldn't fit in our compact spaces, so I had to get rid of my cybertruck. We have. We. You guys understand that? John, Tommy and I, we park in these three tiny fucking spaces and every morning someone comes in is like, hey, hey, too close. Too fucking close. You're like, I thought I parked. No, you got to park a little bit further because I couldn't get out of the car.

[Jon Favreau]

Tommy leveled an accusation once and I actually, when I went out to get coffee, I had to take, I took a picture just to prove that I had Actually parked far, far away from the line.

[Tommy Vitor]

You digging in and doing a.

[Jon Lovett]

Well, actually, I just want to, I just want to say that we've been together longer than the Beatles.

[Jon Favreau]

Maybe one, one serious discussion in this section.

[Jon Lovett]

Before we go.

[Jon Favreau]

One question. So Jeff Stein and Dan diamond had a good piece in the Washington Post. Not as gossipy as Maggie and Jonathan's, but a good piece.

[Tommy Vitor]

Good reporter.

[Jon Lovett]

It was good.

[Jon Favreau]

They made the case that Trump actually does appear to be susceptible to political pressure on things like tariffs and Doge cuts. Walked back the tariffs now a couple times. He has now reined in Elon a little bit. What do you guys think? Do you, do you think that this is him feeling some political pressure? Do you think it's something else?

[Jon Lovett]

No, I think he does. I think he actually does. I think he's hearing it. I don't think he faces political pressure in that he cares about blowback in like the mainstream press. I think he hears it from the congressional Republicans. And I think behind closed doors there are more honest conversations with Mike Johnson, with John Thune about what they're hearing and where it's like, hey man, they're like kind of the kind of thing that's like, hey man, they're with you, but you gotta give them this or you gotta slow down on this or I'm getting a lot of shit about this, whatever it may be. Because I think actually where the political pressure is right now, like really does boil down to whatever happens. Yes, with the CR that's coming, but ultimately with reconciliation and whether or not they can get a, all Republican bill through the House and if the economy's going down, if there's a, a bunch of blowback around Medicaid cuts, all of.

[Jon Favreau]

A sudden planes are going down.

[Jon Lovett]

Planes are, planes are continue to touch, which they're never supposed to do. They're bumping. Then all of a sudden they're not able to count to a majority in the House and his whole agenda is in jeopardy.

[Tommy Vitor]

Yeah, I mean, we're tariffing Canada, one of our closest allies, over a completely made up fentanyl trafficking problem. Someone at the White House has to just be like, what are we doing here? Because as you pointed out, I mean, he does need the political capital to get these things, this tax cut through Congress and it just doesn't look good right now.

[Jon Favreau]

He also, he likes being liked. That's like his big, he's important and he is, I think, more self aware than he lets on. And he knows, right. The stock market's been terrible. Right. Like he's not. He watches the tv and so he knows what's going on. And I think he does not want to be hated.

[Tommy Vitor]

Yeah, the deal is like, we'll give you money, you give us a tax cut for all his donors. They can't be happy right now.

[Jon Favreau]

Okay, we're gonna take a quick break, but two announcements before we do that. We got a new podcast from Crooked that we think you'll love. It's called Shadow God's Banker. I'm gonna set the scene. It's the summer of 1982, and the Vatican's top money man was found dead. He was at the center of a prolific money laundering scheme that put him in the crosshairs of the Sicilian Mafia, a secret far right chapter of the Freemasons, and the Catholic Church, 40 years after his death was ruled a suicide. Shadow Kingdom host Niccolo Minoni got a tip that there was more to the story. Check out the trailer for Shadow God's Banker right now, wherever you get your podcasts and subscribe for episodes starting March 17. Better yet, join our friends of the Pod community to binge all the episodes that same [e-mail] friends or on the Shadow Kingdom Apple podcast feed. Also, Merch Store news. Oh, we got some new products here. Trump has blamed DEI for everything from wildfires to plane crashes to inflation. And the Crooked Store has new merch to help you embody Trump's new favorite boogeyman with a DEI hire shirt from the Crooked Store.

[Jon Lovett]

Hell yeah.

[Jon Favreau]

Nice.

[Jon Lovett]

Hell yeah.

[Jon Favreau]

Head to crooked.comstore to pick up yours today.

[Jon Lovett]

Isn't it crazy that Shadow Kingdom is about 1982 and you and I were babies and Tommy was in high school?

[Tommy Vitor]

You go get kicked out of another rally. Pots of America is brought to you by Aura Frames. Love it. Who do you think has the most aura here at Crooked Media?

[Jon Lovett]

Oh, wow. Who's throwing off a ton of Riz? I gotta say, I think it's Dan Pfeiffer.

[Tommy Vitor]

Damn right, Dan Pfeiffer. Riz Machine Rizz. We all know someone who loves taking photos. Hard pivot here. But all of those photos are just wasting away on their phone or on the cloud. Start putting them to good use with the unique, stylish digital picture frame from Aura Frames. You put all your rizzed out friend photos in your aura frame. It was named the number one digital picture frame by Wirecutter and for good reason. It's so easy to set up and they have different frame options. You can share photos or videos from any device and they'll instantly appear on the frame wherever it is in the world. No memory card required. You can add unlimited photos and videos and invite as many people as you want to a frame. There are absolutely no hidden fees or subscriptions. You can upload videos up to 30 seconds long and your favorite live iPhone photos will play right on the frame. The embedded speaker can play audio on demand. Aura frames are great gifts for parents, grandparents, anybody who wants to see your photo, see what's going on with your kid's life or just, you know, if you have sort of a. A wannabe professional photographer in your life who's always taken new pics, it's a great way to display them.

[Jon Lovett]

Yeah. Real Annie Leibowitz.

[Tommy Vitor]

Yeah, Little Billy Leibitz. The best part is it comes with unlimited storage. All you need is the free Aura app and a WI fi connection. You can upload as many photos and videos as you want year round, even a maple Thorpe. Right now, you can save on a perfect gift that keeps on giving. By visiting auraframes.com for a limited time, listeners can get $20 off their best selling Carver Mat frame with Code Crooked. That's a U R A frames.com promo code CROOKED. Don't forget to mention that Pod Save America sent you to show your support for the show. Terms and conditions apply. Your old or broken phone can let you down. But at Verizon, trade in any old.

[Jon Favreau]

Phone from our top brands and get iPhone 16 Pro with Apple Intelligence with a new line on my plan and iPad and Apple Watch Series 10.

[Tommy Vitor]

After all, you don't want your old phone to die on you when you're lost.

[Jon Lovett]

Perfect. Perfect.

[Tommy Vitor]

Or for your broken phone to glitch at the worst possible time.

[Jon Lovett]

Hey, can I get your number?

[Bernie Sanders]

Oh.

[Tommy Vitor]

Trade in your old phone for a brand new iPhone 16 Pro, iPad and Apple Watch.

[Jon Favreau]

Visit verizon.com today. Additional terms apply.

[Tommy Vitor]

Service plan required for apple watch and iPad.

[Jon Favreau]

All right, let's talk about what Americans really care about. Whether the looming government shutdown can be averted. On Saturday, Speaker Mike Johnson put out the text of the continuing resolution he's going to bring to a vote Tuesday night. It turns out it's not exactly a clean continuing resolution as promised. It increases spending on things like defense and border enforcement, while cutting spending by greater amounts in other areas, including zeroing out a lot of healthcare programs in states. Trump is whipping support for this one. He wrote on Truth Social. All Republicans should vote in parentheses, please. Exclamation point. Yes, next week. So far, we've only got one Republican hard No. From Thomas Massie. If that holds, this thing will pass the House. Big if. Then it will go to the Senate, where the funding bill can't pass without support from at least seven Democratic senators and probably eight since Rand Paul. Seems like a no. Democratic leaders say this is a power grab by the White House and a, quote, slush fund for Trump and Musk. What do you think they mean by that?

[Jon Lovett]

Well, there's no control. Like he's. Donald Trump is treating every dollar Congress has ever appropriated as money he can decide whether to spend or not. Republicans have acted as though putting into the law controls on what Trump does to protect Congress's authority under the Constitution is, like, so unacceptable. So, yeah, I mean, if Donald Trump believes he can just cut or spend however he sees fit, then we're no longer appropriating money for the administrative branch. We're appropriating money for Donald Trump to spend.

[Jon Favreau]

So our pal Alyssa Slotkin, the fairly moderate new Democratic senator from Michigan, said on Sunday that she's withholding her vote to fund the government until Congress gets, quote, assurances that the administration will actually follow the law and spending the money. So it's not a slush fund. That seems to me like Senate Democrats might actually be willing to vote down this funding bill, though. Then they asked Mark Kelly and he was sort of saying what Slotkin said, but then he was like, but shutdowns are bad. We don't like shutdowns. And the CR isn't great, but shutdowns are bad, too. Tommy, what do you think is this. Can you see a possible compromise here? Is this a good idea to go forward and withhold votes? Bad idea.

[Tommy Vitor]

I mean, I think love is point is the important one, like Congress's position sort of has to be, if you want to cut spending, we will write a bill, otherwise we shouldn't exist anymore.

[Jon Favreau]

Right.

[Tommy Vitor]

So I don't like. I also think, I think Democrats should approach this with some confidence because Trump does not want a shutdown. Right now. The economy is very shaky. People are wondering what he's doing. Like, people like voters know Republicans control everything. I don't like shutdown politics are complicated. It's especially complicated when you have Elon Musk controlling the most powerful piece of social media with X and the ability to blame Democrats. So it'll get rocky, but I don't know, like, I would demand something at the very least. And I think saying, yeah, you have to follow the law and actually appropriate money where we say is pretty important.

[Jon Favreau]

Yeah, I mean, I won't. I Feel like a talked about this on too many episodes. But you know, Dan has made the point like, know what you're asking for. Ask for something. If you're going to go through this and like make it specific, make it under, you know, and look, will they, if you get it, are they going to abide by it? Who the fuck knows. But if we're, if we're going by what they're going to abide or not abide by, then we might as well just give up. You're right. Then there's, then there's no Congress. We might.

[Jon Lovett]

Right. If we're, we're afraid of the politics, of what happens when Donald Trump doesn't follow the law. We've lost already. We're fair if we're afraid of the politics, if Donald Trump does follow the law. Well, that's ordinary politics we've done a million times. And then if they need our votes to pass something, then you should get something for your votes. Yeah, right. Like they're just going to do what they would have done if they had a 60 seat majority. Well, that doesn't make sense.

[Tommy Vitor]

Yeah, don't be scared about the midterms now, for God's sake.

[Jon Favreau]

No, that I would not do something. So of course government funding isn't the only thing Democrats are arguing about. Excellent Wall Street Journal headline here. Democrats are busy fighting over what to fight over on their list, whether it was good or bad to interrupt Trump in his joint address and whether we should be blowing up members phones in town halls to get them to fight the Doge cuts. Tim Walls was also out there this weekend saying that the Harris campaign played it too safe during the campaign and should have done more town halls where they got tough questions for good measure. We also had a bunch of stories over the weekend about Democrats starting to swear more, talk more about sports and podcast more, which of course we love.

[Tommy Vitor]

How about football? You like?

[Jon Favreau]

How are you guys feeling about the party's very public therapy session slash nervous breakdown?

[Tommy Vitor]

Par for the course, huh?

[Jon Lovett]

You know, it's sort of like, hey everybody, just stop, just go.

[Jon Favreau]

Do remember that from forgetting Sarah Marshall. Do less.

[Tommy Vitor]

Don't burden yourself.

[Jon Lovett]

I guess I'd like a little bit more, a little less discussion of the strategy types that are available to us and a little bit more of if you think this is what we should do, why don't you do that? And if you think there's something else we should do, you do that and then we'll just take a look at it. You know, let's just Throw, let's just throw some spaghetti against the wall, you.

[Jon Favreau]

Know, and if that spaghetti looks like a years old trend on TikTok, the choose your fighter thing, I didn't love that.

[Jon Lovett]

I didn't love that. But it's like, I don't think Democrats have paid too great a price for Al Green going meh. And like, I don't, you know, but I, but. And like, I don't think the color coordination was particularly effective.

[Jon Favreau]

Yep.

[Tommy Vitor]

Look, most protests aren't popular in the moment, so you can disagree with Al Green's tactic, but at least he had a focused message that was about Medicaid cuts. I like that better than like holding a silly, like kind of cutesy sign. I think that was always destined to look silly. I think you're. If you look at the Senate, Cory Booker, Brian Schatz, Chris Murphy, there's a lot of people just like putting shots on goal, making a lot of content, putting stuff on TikTok, putting up videos. I think that's the right way to go. Tim Wallace is right. They did play too safe. I mean, I remember when he was named as vice president, everyone was really excited to hear him do a bunch of interviews and then he was bottled up for half the campaign. And that was obviously a mistake.

[Jon Lovett]

Yeah. The being afraid of taking on some of the more controversial, like policy issues that the Trump campaign was making big under the assumption that, under the hope that you ignore that you push that down, you campaign in your most effective, on your most effective messages. That was like a smarter, safer thing to do. Like, it turns out that didn't work. Was that the wrong decision at the time? I don't know. But like right now, like there's a, I feel like in that piece, like there's a lot of like abstraction and like, I don't, sometimes I don't know what is fighting voting against the cr, is fighting voting for it. But being angry. Like, like sometimes, like very confused and. But only. But focusing on reconciliation. Like what? Like, I don't often know how to apply the abstraction. But like the core point, one of the core points made in the piece is there are some more moderates that are basically saying our constituents that we need our moderate constituency to think of us as even killed fighters who will work with Trump sometimes and oppose him where he's wrong. While there's the, well, I'm just like trying to make the most generous version of it. And then. But the left says Trump is threatening the Republic. We need to fight these people at every turn. And by the way that will bring out the people we need when they see us becoming champions for them and the working class. And that means. That means giving no quarter and. And trying to stop every one of these Doge cuts, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera. And, like, I think probably that may make sense in Tom Suozzi's district, but not make sense for others and not make sense for the party as a whole. I don't know.

[Jon Favreau]

I think there's been. It's odd to say this, as three founders of a media company here, there's been a bit too much focus on, like, what mediums and formats to communicate and get the message out. And, like, I get it. You know, it's a. It's a crazy media environment right now, and you can't do just television anymore and put out a press release. Right. We've talked about that a million times. But, like, there should be a little more focus on just be yourself. You know, do what's comfortable to you in your own skin. And then the fact that you have to do it on a new medium, Right. Like, you have to be on TikTok or you have to do a podcast. Like, that shouldn't change your style, your message, who you are. Like, I feel like there's a lot of trying to fit themselves in, like, boxes that they don't really belong in just because either their younger staff or consultants or anyone else is telling them, like, this is what's cool. This is what you got to do. Like, you just. Just be yourself.

[Tommy Vitor]

Box is a vertical video. Yeah. You don't have to do, like, a trending meme. That's silly. Just talk. But I do think it's good to get out there. I mean, apparently. Apparently House members were mad. They were told not to applaud at the State of the Union. And if that's the case, that was bad advice because, like, every president ever who delivers the State of the Union creates a trap for you if you do that by, you know, introducing some really emotional story where clearly everyone should be applauding. And if you're sitting on your hands, you look bad. But I don't. It doesn't matter.

[Jon Lovett]

Like, but that's. I think this is where, like, we're like, do we applaud or not applaud? Like, why is that even.

[Tommy Vitor]

It's just a silly thing the media focuses on.

[Jon Lovett]

No, I know, but what I'm getting, there's, like. It's like all of this feels like it's trying to make up for some deeper problem, which is about, like, what do we stand for? Why don't people believe us? How do we. Like, there's a kind of bigger problem inside of, like, Democratic politics that we all, on some level, know and we're sort of grappling with. And, like, in the short term, like, no one's going to solve it. It's going to take a lot of time.

[Jon Favreau]

Well, and again, elections will come, and you need to strategize around an election and figure out what the best measures are for, like, the next. For at least this year. Just do your politics. Like, you're not going to look at the reaction or you're not going to read advice. You're just doing it based on what you think and believe and how you feel about things. Just, like, try that for. Just try it for a little bit.

[Jon Lovett]

Yeah. Yeah, sure.

[Jon Favreau]

It'll work for some people, and some people it won't work for. And then, you know, see you later, get another job.

[Tommy Vitor]

Politics like, no one is watching.

[Jon Lovett]

Yeah.

[Jon Favreau]

Yes.

[Jon Lovett]

Yeah. It's like, no one's watching.

[Jon Favreau]

Politics like no one is watching.

[Jon Lovett]

Yeah. Posts like, you've never been here. No one is. Yeah, no one is. Here's the thing. For most people, nobody is. You know, you go to that.

[Jon Favreau]

Like, if a podcast. Podcast dropped on a feed and no one heard it, did it really.

[Jon Lovett]

Did it really make three guys say anything? Did those three white guys say anything? Yes. My answer is yes.

[Tommy Vitor]

That was a draft version, the title.

[Jon Lovett]

Yeah. But, like, you know, I saw the difference between, like, there was, like, this whole. I, like, I posted a picture of the Bernie rally and said, like, I thought this was inspiring because it genuinely was.

[Jon Favreau]

I saw you, quote, tweet it, and I was like, oh, he must be shadow boxing his mentions on this one.

[Jon Lovett]

You bet. I was. You bet. Not shadowboxing boxing. But there is every reply under the book in the sun to explain why it wasn't actually inspiring and actually quite bad. What? Yeah, just sort of like, why is Bernie alone? Why aren't other Democrats doing this? Bernie's too old. Why isn't he with somebody else? This isn't.

[Jon Favreau]

Sometimes I feel like we're running a political campaign with 5,000 people who, like, all have an equal say in the campaign all the time, and they're all strategists.

[Jon Lovett]

But the thing about it. Well, online. But the thing about it is, like, there was none of that feeling in the actual event.

[Jon Favreau]

Cause it's real life.

[Jon Lovett]

And in real life, what was there at that event? There were. It was. It was very diverse age, all Demographics. And there are people there that have been Bernie fans forever. There are people there that had never been to a political rally before. They were all very excited to be there. They weren't checking to find out how long they'd been a Bernie backer, if any Pete Buttigieg supporters had managed to sneak in. Right. Like, none of that exists in the real world. Right. There's nobody like, oh, you like Bernie?

[Jon Favreau]

Do I hear high hopes in the background?

[Jon Lovett]

You're like Bernie now, but you, you. You were part of the DNC coup in Iowa in 2016. Yeah.

[Tommy Vitor]

That's like people who are early into a band who scold you if you come to it later. It's like, that's not fun.

[Jon Lovett]

Right. Like, the two, like the two things can't be. The two positions can't be. Why isn't the Democratic Party embracing Bernie's message? And, oh, sure, you like Bernie now. Where were you before? It's like, well, those two things are in opposition.

[Tommy Vitor]

Some of my. Sometimes our leftist friends don't build the biggest tent, and we all should just welcome people into the Bernie club. I think there's like sort of two compet that are in my mind, like, first of all, in Congress, obstruction works. Mitch McConnell built a whole career off it. So let's just obstruct everything Trump does and try to prevent harm. And then there's the other piece of this, which is like, people are looking for something to be for and some sort of inspiration. And when I talked to Alistair Campbell for the Sunday Pod, he was Tony Blair's guy. And one thing they did before Tony Blair became Prime minister was they, like, they literally had a big contentious debate about the constitution of the Labor Party, like the, the DNA of it. They had a huge contentious fight, like, ripped it down to the studs and tried to reimagine it. And I think the Democrats were missing that process. And it probably won't come until we have a nominee ahead of the 2028 primaries because, you know, whoever is the top of the ticket kind of reshapes the party around him or herself. But I think we're missing some of that. We're missing a process to kind of like, reimagine who we are and our brand and our values and then project it outwards.

[Jon Lovett]

I also, I agree with that. I also think there's like, I'm watching the Real Housewives from the beginning, a lot of them. And honestly, everybody was right. I can't believe I waited this long. It's a dream. It's better than any drama. Severance can eat shit compared to the Real Housewives in New York.

[Jon Favreau]

But got some nodding heads over there.

[Jon Lovett]

But there was a moment during a reunion where Andy.

[Jon Favreau]

The reunion episodes are the best.

[Jon Lovett]

Incredible. Well, Andy turns to all the gals and says, would you come back for another season? And Alex said, I would love to. And Jill said, I'm not so sure. I bet Jill got more money after that. And I just. Like, there's a. There's a downside to Democrats constantly hand wringing in public about how terrified they are of looking, like they're obstinate or like worrying about how they need to show that they. That they're. Some of their constituents want them to kind of coordinate with Trump and not be so opposed to him. While opposing the bad parts is it sends a message that they're. That they're fucking, that they'll. That they'll bend, that they'll give up. And if, like, Democrats were a little bit more like, we will support bills that do the right thing and we won't. We won't go. We won't be ransomed into supporting the old cards.

[Jon Favreau]

A little closer to the ve.

[Jon Lovett]

Yes, absolutely. Like, there's a. Just like Trump is a negotiator. He's not a very good one, but he thinks about it. He cares about it. It's like, maybe like, let's think about that a little bit.

[Tommy Vitor]

But also good for Bernie for filling a space and like giving people a place to go to get excited and fired up. I think that's great.

[Jon Lovett]

In House districts that Republicans won by.

[Tommy Vitor]

Only a few votes, more Democrats should be doing that.

[Jon Lovett]

Absolutely.

[Jon Favreau]

Whether you like Bernie's politics or not, here's a guy who has not changed anything about himself and doesn't want to, doesn't care how you feel about it, is completely comfortable in his own skin, and he's going around drawing these big crowds. Just, just old traditional style. Just go do a rally and you talk to people and everyone's like, this is great. He didn't figure out, like, the TikTok trend. He didn't figure out exactly how to, like, do an explainer video, vertical video.

[Jon Lovett]

He's not like, we got to stop the oligarchy. No, Cap, Cap. That's not Bernie's move. That's not Bernie's move.

[Tommy Vitor]

Should end it there, I think.

[Jon Favreau]

How was it?

[Tommy Vitor]

Looked really fun.

[Jon Lovett]

The rally was great. Just don't feel.

[Jon Favreau]

Cap.

[Jon Lovett]

Sorry, Bernie. We sat down with Bernie after, but it was. We sat. He was. We were supposed to talk to him before the rally. We only talked to him after, which was the. After his third rally and he was pretty well cooked. So we got, we had like a quick. We had a good conversation. But I will say it was also awesome just getting to talk to a lot of people. And if you go to crooked socials on Instagram on, on X on TikTok, you can see all the conversations. And we walked to the end of what was one of the longest lines I've ever seen in politics of people trying to get in. And it was really fun. So check it out.

[Tommy Vitor]

Subscribe on TikTok. Yeah, Instagram.

[Jon Lovett]

Absolutely.

[Tommy Vitor]

X maybe take it or leave it.

[Jon Favreau]

All the platforms.

[Tommy Vitor]

Foreign is brought to you by Haya. Typical children's vitamins are basically candy in disguise, filled with two teaspoons of sugar, unhealthy chemicals and other gummy additives growing kids should never eat. That's why Haya created a superpowered chewable vitamin that kids love. Haya fills in the most common gaps in modern children's diets to provide the full body nourishment our kids need with the yummy taste they love. Formulated with the help of pediatricians and nutritional experts, Haya is pressed with a blend of 12 organic fruits and veggies, then supercharged with 15 essential vitamins and minerals including vitamin D, B12C, zinc, folate and many others to help support immune system energy, brain function, mood, concentration, teeth, bones and more. It's non gmo, vegan, dairy free, allergy free, gelatin free, nut free and everything else you can imagine. Free Haya is designed for kids two and up and sent straight to your door so parents have one less thing to worry about. There was an alt to this personal experience that you'll never hear, but Haya is great. It's an amazing vitamin. I know Charlie Favreau loves a good high vitamin. And that kid's looking tall, handsome, smart as a whip.

[Jon Lovett]

Yeah, I saw he was throwing anchors off a steamship. He's incredible. Yeah, kid's strong.

[Tommy Vitor]

He just made a supercomputer. Some sort of quantum thing.

[Jon Lovett]

Yeah, he did. He said he was talking to us about qubits.

[Tommy Vitor]

Yeah, I was like, what are you tired of battling with your kids to eat their greens? Hayano is Kids Daily Greens plus Superfood, a chocolate flavored greens powder designed specifically for kids. Packed with 55 whole food ingredients to support brain power, development and digestion. Just scoop, shake and sip with milk or any non dairy beverage for a delicious and nutritious boost your kids will actually enjoy. We've worked out a special deal with Haya for their best selling children's vitamin. Receive 50% off your first order to claim this deal you must go to hiyahealth.com crooked. This deal is not available on the regular website. Go to H I Y A H E a l t h.com Crooked to get your kids the full body nourishment they need to grow into healthy adults. The last thing you want to hear when you need your auto insurance most is a robot with countless relevant menu options. Which is why with USAA Auto insurance, you'll get great service that is easy and reliable, all at the touch of a button. Get a quote today, restrictions apply.

[Jon Favreau]

All right, enough of us yapping about it. Let's hear your conversation with the man himself. Bernie Sanders, Center.

[Jon Lovett]

Welcome back to POD Save America.

[Bernie Sanders]

Good to be with you.

[Jon Lovett]

We were just talking about this. We're in Warren, Michigan. It is not an election year. There are 10,000 people here.

[Bernie Sanders]

I'll tell you, I have, needless to say, I've done a lot of rallies and we've done rallies during the presidential campaign that were larger than this for sure. But the idea that in a non campaign coming here to Warren, Michigan, that you have 10,000 people is totally insane. And what it tells me, and we had tremendous turnouts in Kenosha. We had wonderful turnouts in a small community in Altoona, Wisconsin. And what it tells me is the American people are up in arms now. They are not going to let Trump and his friends turn this country into an oligarchy. They're not going to let him turn us into an authoritarian society. And they're not going to allow him to give tax breaks to billionaires and cut the programs that working class people need.

[Jon Lovett]

You said something yesterday in Wisconsin. You said we're no longer moving toward an oligarchy. We are living in one.

[Bernie Sanders]

Yeah.

[Jon Lovett]

Which I hadn't heard you say before.

[Bernie Sanders]

Well, look, I think the evidence is pretty clear. When you have a president get inaugurated and standing behind them, sitting behind them were the three wealthiest people in the country, Mr. Musk, Mr. Bezos, Mr. Zuckerberg, and then sitting scattered throughout the stage, 13 other billionaires who Trump nominated to head major agencies, Secretary of Treasury, et cetera, you tell me what you would call it. This is, I, I find it hard not to describe it as a government of the billionaires. And that is what Alakkaki is about.

[Jon Lovett]

There's this, you know, you made this video after like getting two weeks into Trump's term. And it was really meaningful for me, just personally because I found it very helpful to think about how to fight back. You talked about needing to define what's happening, needing to fight back in the short term, and then needing to build a progressive movement, an agenda in the long term. But there was also like a. There was a gravity in your voice and a sense that in a way that I maybe hadn't heard before. I don't know if you agree with that.

[Bernie Sanders]

Look, these are the scariest times in my lifetime. That's all. I mean, I think that's objectively the truth. You know, it is not just they want to give tax breaks to billionaires and cut programs for working people. Frankly, that's happened before. But you combine that with the power of the oligarchy in general. You combine that with Mr. Musk owning Twitter and able to send out his messages to hundreds of millions of people. You combine that with the fact that people like Bezos, the second wealthiest person in the country, fired or got rid of most of his editorial staff and is going to convert him into a right wing thing. Combine that with the fact that Trump is suing major media outlets and is threatening to investigate PBS and npr. So it's not only the power of money, it's also combined with that, the movement toward authoritarianism. You know, when Trump unilaterally cuts federal funding that was passed by Congress, that is illegal, that is unconstitutional. When you have the vice president saying, well, in his judgment, the courts don't have the right to stop unconstitutional acts of the president, man, that is what's our daring is that's what the courts are. He is now trying to end what the founding fathers were pretty smart about, creating a form of government where there were checks and balances, you know, a legislative body, an executive body, and a judiciary. So he's moving aggressively in all of these areas. Yeah, there was gravity in my voice. This is a scary moment.

[Jon Lovett]

There's this strange contradiction in fighting back because on the one hand, you have the kind of brazenness of what's Trump. Trump is doing as if he won't ever have to worry about Democratic legitimacy at all, that they're not worried about being held accountable, or they're not worried about people paying attention, they're not worried about what could happen. But then we're here in a district that a Republican won by a few points. Right. These people still care about their jobs. Right. This is a place where normal politics just seems still be possible to practice. And I'm just curious how you think about that. That on the one hand, we're facing this unprecedented, brazen power grab by the richest human beings in the history of planet Earth. And on the other, we gotta knock on doors and turn people out to win by a few hundred, maybe a thousand votes in a district like this?

[Bernie Sanders]

Well, I think, and this is what I believe, maybe I'm wrong, but it is what I have always believed. And I am a politician, you know, and when people stand up and talk, when your phone line bangs off the hook, when you see rallies, if I'm the congressman from this district and I see 9,000 people coming out who really do not want tax breaks for billionaires and cuts in Medicaid, you know what? I'm gonna think twice about it. So I think what Trump and Musk hope is they can create a sense of powerlessness in people. Hey, what do you think? I got all the money, I got all the power. I own the media. I can buy elections. What do you think you can do? You can't fund me. And if people believe that we're going to lose, but if people understand that when they stand up and fight back. And that's why at the end of these remarks, I talked about the history of this country, this is not the first time, you know, I think back, well, slightly different thing. You know, In December of 41, 1941, the United States was attacked at Pearl Harbor. You know what? We have to fight a war on two fronts. Complete. The military was not prepared to do that. Yet in two years, country came together. We were able to. To lay the groundwork for victory. We can do it. We can do it when people are mobilized and are prepared to stand up and fight back.

[Jon Lovett]

So let's talk about what does success to you look like in the short term?

[Bernie Sanders]

In the short term, it means a solid defeat of this outrageous reconciliation bill, which would provide $1.1 trillion in tax breaks to the 1% and massive cuts to Medicaid, nutrition and education programs. That's the immediate. We win that. We got them on the defensive. And that's why I'm here in this district and why I was in Kenosha and Altoona earlier.

[Jon Lovett]

What is that? What does that argue for doing in the. Even before we get to that reconciliation vote? Because right now they're trying to jam through this continuing resolution just to keep the government open, to give them time to negotiate with each other, to figure out their tax cuts and Medicaid cuts.

[Bernie Sanders]

Well, I'm, I'll be back in Washington on Monday and we'll be delving into that. But there's a lot of Stuff that's flying on. So I can't give you a good answer on that one.

[Jon Lovett]

You know, I remember when the Bush tax cuts were on the table and they talked about starving the beast. Sure, you remember. But the reason they said that is they were kind of attenuating the connection between massive tax cuts for the richest people and inevitably what they would try to do next, which was privatizing Social Security, cutting health care. They understood that there was like a political risk in doing that. Can you remember a time when you have had at the exact same moment an active proposal to cut $1 trillion worth of taxes for the richest people to give people making over a million dollars an average of $70,000 just in cash money while also firing 80,000 people in the Veterans Affairs?

[Bernie Sanders]

No. This is unprecedented and it's why this is a scary moment. Look, Musk is many things, but he is extraordinarily arrogant and extraordinarily aggressive. And they're going for it. They're going for it. I mean, it's just hard to keep up with what they are doing. They're moving and that's not an accident as well. But I tell you, I think that when you propose to cut, was it 83,000 positions at the Veterans Administration.

[Tommy Vitor]

The.

[Bernie Sanders]

American people are going to say, you're not going to do that. Because no matter what your politics may be, there is respect for people who put their lives on the line to defend our country. And I've been talking to veterans all over this country and you know what? I don't think they're going to get away with that. I think the veterans community is going to stand up. I think you have seniors all over this country saying, no, I can't get a phone call now because the Social Security Administration is understaffed. Some 30,000 people a year die who have disabilities because they don't get their benefits on time. This will only make it much worse.

[Jon Lovett]

So there was a report out of the Times about basically a fight in the Cabinet Room or in a Cabinet meeting between Musk and Rubio and Duffy and Trump and all these characters because they're feeling the political consequences of the attention on long hold times for people just trying to find out what happened to their Social Security checks or veterans being laid off. Most of the 25% of the people that work at VA are veterans. So they are firing veterans who take care of veterans. I can't think of a less popular you got it decision. What, what is there, is there any hope in the pressure that you. That's taking place inside of the Trump administration. I know we want to beat these people, but in the meantime, we gotta. We gotta figure out anything we can do to stop these.

[Bernie Sanders]

No, I think I. I think not. I mean, I think the answer is going to do. Be exactly what we're doing here today, and that is rally thousands of people all over this country. Will be. Our next trip, we expect, will probably be heading west, maybe to Colorado, Nevada, Arizona, whatever, and just put pressure on these members of Congress. Now, in fairness to them, because of the corrupt campaign finance system, if some Republican today stands up and says, you know what, I am not going to cut Medicaid in my district to give tax breaks to billionaires, you know what happens the next day Musk says, guess what, fella, we're going to primary you. I got endless amounts of money. You're in trouble. These guys are scared to death. They're scared to death of Musk, but we got to have to force them to make a choice. They can be scared to death of Musk, or they could be scared to death of their own constituents. That's the choice we're going to give them.

[Jon Lovett]

So, look, I don't know if you have any interest in talking about what Democrats are doing wrong, if you cared about their outfits at the State of the Union, but we can skip it if you want.

[Bernie Sanders]

Yeah, look, Democrats will. And you want to talk about Democrats, I'll give you Chuck Schumer's number. Hakeem Jeffries, you can talk to them. I'm here doing. As you know, I'm an independent. The longest. I'm proudly. Longest standing Independent in American congressional history. I'm doing what I do. Democrats will do what they do. And that's the.

[Jon Lovett]

So we talked to a bunch of people in the line that were excited to be here. And one thing we heard was just people saying how much they believe in you. They're here because they want to do what you think is best, and they view you as like a moral leader of the movement. But they also are feeling worried and nervous that you're a little bit out here alone. And you said that you may not seek reelection.

[Bernie Sanders]

I didn't make that definitive. I am.

[Jon Lovett]

I said I didn't make it.

[Bernie Sanders]

I am 38 years of age now. I am getting old.

[Jon Lovett]

I'm not. I'm not. Listen, I think there's 20, man.

[Bernie Sanders]

I don't know.

[Jon Lovett]

There's a lot of ways to be 89. There's a lot of different versions of 89. Your sprite. Your Sprite with Rolling Stones, they're still touring, but. But do you. Do you think about it? Do you think about a successor?

[Bernie Sanders]

No, I don't want to. Look, all I will tell you is that one of the untold stories is that that when I was in the House, I helped form the Progressive Caucus, you may know that. And we had about five people at the time, grew a little bit. Today there are somewhere around 100. And there are fantastic people, many of them, dozens of them, young people. Many of them are women, people of color, great people. So, you know, that is one of the success stories that the progressive movement has had. We've elected people the likes of which when I was in the house, you know, 18 years ago, they didn't exist. So we're making some real progress. We've got to do a lot more.

[Jon Lovett]

Here's my last question for you. You want to talk about the future? Would you ever take an edible with me and sit down and just have a conversation about the future? Just get really stoned on marijuana? Really brainstorm?

[Bernie Sanders]

No, but I'm happy to talk to you. I don't need to do marijuana to talk. Okay.

[Jon Lovett]

What happened? What happened to the radical? What happened to the burning of the 60s? Let's get stoned.

[Bernie Sanders]

Are you serious?

[Jon Lovett]

Yeah.

[Bernie Sanders]

No, that's not who I am. As a matter of fact, I've done marijuana twice in my life.

[Jon Lovett]

Twice.

[Bernie Sanders]

Yeah. Didn't quite agree with me.

[Jon Lovett]

Do you want to end daylight saving time?

[Bernie Sanders]

Doesn't matter. Okay, thank you very much.

[Jon Favreau]

That's our show for today. Dan and I will be back with a new show on Friday. Talk to everybody then. If you want to listen to Pod Save America ad free or get access to our subscriber discord and exclusive podcasts, consider joining our friends of the pod [e-mail] friends or subscribe on Apple Podcasts directly from the Pod Save America feed. Also, be sure to follow Pod Save America on TikTok, Instagram, Twitter and YouTube for full episodes, bonus content, and more. And before you hit that next button, you can help boost this episode by leaving us a review and by sharing it with friends and family. Pod Save America is a crooked media production. Our producers are David Toledo and Saul Rubin. Our associate producer is Farah Safari. Reid Churlin is our executive editor and Adrienne Hill is our executive producer. The show is mixed and edited by Andrew Chadwick. Jordan Kanter is our sound engineer, with audio support from Kyle Seglin and Charlotte Landis. Madeline Herringer is our head of news and programming. Matt de Groat is our head of production Naomi Sengel as our executive assistant. Thanks to our digital team, Elijah Cohn, Hayley Jones, Ben Hethcote, Mia Kelman, Molly Lobel, Kiril Pelaviev, and David Toles, our production staff is proudly unionized with the Writers Guild of America East.

[Tommy Vitor]

Last year, Americans ate 32 billion chicken wings. Who knows just how many helpless sides.

[Jon Favreau]

Of celery were heartlessly thrown away?

[Tommy Vitor]

But this year, celery neglect can stop with you and irresistible Jif peanut butter because you can make a snack to make a difference. You can buy a jar of Jif.

[Jon Favreau]

To save the celery.

[Tommy Vitor]

So please don't let celery be decoration for wings.

[Jon Favreau]

Tap the banner to save the celery. Substance use disorder and addiction is so isolating.

[Jon Lovett]

And so, as a black woman in.

[Jon Favreau]

Recovery, hope must be loud. It grows louder when you ask for help and you're vulnerable. It is the thread that lets you know that no matter what happens, you will be okay. When we learn the power of hope, recovery is possible, find out [e-mail] brought.

[Jon Lovett]

To you by the National Council for Mental well Being, Shatterproof and the Ad Council.