← Pod Save America
Pod Save America
Trump's Gaza Ceasefire Takes Hold
01:23:25
President Trump travels to Israel and Egypt to celebrate the return of the hostages and the end of military operations in Gaza. Tommy and Lovett react to the ceasefire, discuss what's next for Gaza, Israel, and Benjamin Netanyahu, and debate how much credit Trump deserves for brokering this peace deal. Then they turn to ICE's latest violence against immigrants and protesters, a new attack on constitutionally protected free speech at The Pentagon, and the latest from the ongoing government shutdown. Then, Leah Greenberg, Co-Executive Director of Indivisible, discusses this weekend's upcoming No Kings protests and Republicans' attempt to paint them as a "hate America" rally.
Loading summary
Transcript199 lines
- [00:00]
Jon Favreau
Today's presenting sponsor is simply Safe Home Security. Every now and again we all get lulled into a false sense of security. There were times years ago when we thought, hey, looks like Susan Collins might vote her conscience and everything will be fine. She's certainly acting like she's going to make the right choice, but look at how that turned out. It's kind of like traditional home security systems, but you didn't know where that was going. You think they're going to do the right thing, but they're just giving you false hope. And that's where SimpliSafe comes in. Lovett, I believe you installed SimpliSafe right around when it was still assumed that Susan Collins might do the right thing.
- [00:31]
John Lovett
Yeah, that was a heady days or salad days back when we thought there was a chance. Yep, I installed the SimpliSafe system. Really easy to do. You can customize it, make it work for your home. Once you install it, it's really reliable. Customer support is great, the technology is great, the app is great. Highly recommend it.
- [00:44]
Jon Favreau
SimpliSafe smart cameras detect threats while they're still outside your home and alert real security agents. This is the game changer. The agents take action while the intruder is still outside. They confront the intruder, letting them know they're being watched on camera and the police are on their way. Even sounding a loud siren and triggering a spotlight if needed. This is how you stop a crime before it starts. That's real security. Other systems have cameras that let you talk to intruders, but they require you to see the alert yourself. SimpliSafe's monitoring agents have your back and talk to intruders even if they aren't there. There are no long term contracts or hidden fees you can cancel anytime. Named Best Home security systems by U.S. news & World Report for five years running 60 day money back guarantee. So you can try it and see the difference for yourself. Right now our listeners can save 50% on a SimpliSafe home security system at simplisafe.com crooked that's simplisafe.com crook. There's no safe like SimpliSafe.
- [01:34]
Ad Sponsor / Mazda Announcer
Mazda Once you discover the Mazda CX90 plug in hybrid Mazda it doesn't take long to get it. With three rows, a luxurious interior and the ability to go all electric, it's flexible enough for nearly any journey. It will have you saying Mazda the Mazda CX90 plug in hybrid it's made to move you.
- [01:54]
John Lovett
Every Mazda SUV offers you an elevated driving experience and refined performance. Discover it at your local Mazda Dealer today.
- [02:25]
Dan Pfeiffer
Welcome to Pod Save America and Tommy Vitor.
- [02:27]
John Lovett
I'm John Levitt. Thank you.
- [02:28]
Dan Pfeiffer
Favreau is off today. On today's show, it's a huge moment for the world as the Israeli hostages come home and a ceasefire begins in Gaza. We'll explain how this deal happened and what comes next. Then we got some new court rulings on Trump's invasion of America's cities, a crackdown on free speech at the Pentagon and of course we are still stuck in a government shutdown. But there are some key dates coming up that might force action. Finally, Levitt catches up with Leah Greenberg from Indivisible, one of the organizations helping to organize the no Kings Day protest this weekend and, and not unrelatedly, one of the groups being targeted by the Trump administration as a domestic terror front. It's getting to be a long list, huh? Wild, long list of domestic Indivisible, like.
- [03:06]
John Lovett
The most like good hearted and sort of civic minded organization that you could imagine.
- [03:11]
Dan Pfeiffer
Yeah, Just encouraging people to care about what's happening and get involved. But let's start with the latest from the Middle East. We are recording this on Monday afternoon at about 3:30 Pacific Time. Overnight all 20 of the living Israeli hostages came home. And as did the remains of four of the deceased Israeli hostages, nearly 2,000 Palestinian prisoners were released by Israel. That breaks down to about 1700 people who were picked up in Gaza since October 7th and held there without charges. And about 250 others who were serving prison sentences, including for violent attacks on Israeli citizens. Trump arrived in Israel on Monday to a hero's welcome. He gave a speech at the Knesset. It was a mix of a justifiable celebration and then the usual hyperbole and bullshit. Let's listen to an excerpt.
- [03:53]
John Lovett
Do you think we settled eight wars in eight months? I'm now including this one, by the.
- [04:00]
Ad Sponsor / Mazda Announcer
Way, if that's okay.
- [04:01]
John Lovett
They may say, well, that was quick because yesterday I was saying seven, but now I can say eight.
- [04:06]
Ad Sponsor / Mazda Announcer
The hostages are back. The forces of chaos, terror and ruin.
- [04:11]
John Lovett
That have plagued the region for decades now stand weakened, isolated and totally defeated.
- [04:18]
Ad Sponsor / Mazda Announcer
And because of us, the enemies of.
- [04:20]
John Lovett
All civilization are in retreat.
- [04:24]
Ad Sponsor / Mazda Announcer
This is the historic dawn of a new Middle east.
- [04:29]
Dan Pfeiffer
Understated.
- [04:30]
John Lovett
There's a point, there's a point where he said that we've been waiting 3,000 years.
- [04:33]
Dan Pfeiffer
3,000.
- [04:33]
John Lovett
3,000 years.
- [04:35]
Dan Pfeiffer
That's a long wait.
- [04:35]
John Lovett
That's a long time. It's pretty amazing to solve a conflict before at least one of the major religions involved was created.
- [04:45]
Dan Pfeiffer
He's good. He's that good. So after that appearance. Love it. Trump flew to Egypt. There was a big summit there on the Middle east peace, featuring a bunch of world leaders minus the leadership of Israel and Hamas. Let's pause here. How are you feeling about all this?
- [04:58]
John Lovett
So it is just an unalloyed good to see hostages returned to their families. Cannot imagine what it is like for those families to have their. Have their child or their sister or brother, family member kidnapped, hidden away, not sure if they're alive or dead, not sure if even if they are alive, they will remain. So that is a kind of torture. That is an unimaginable circumstance. So that is a beautiful thing to see. Also reports today that aid is surging into Gaza, that humanitarian aid is able to flow much more than before to help people, many who are living under famine conditions. That is also welcome and incredibly important. That sort of was my reaction to it. And then you start to see the immediate kind of old debate. Not old debate, but the kind of beneath the very good news, sort of the contours of how hard this is going to be moving forward. The acrimony about those that view what happened in Gaza as a genocide, while those somehow claiming that because Israel was willing to end the conflict at the return of the hostages, that means its conduct in the war was justified when it was not. The fact that Gaza is leveled and Trump is signing a document with a bunch of leaders that I don't. Have we seen it yet?
- [06:34]
Dan Pfeiffer
No.
- [06:35]
John Lovett
Claiming that they're all gonna take part in the rebuilding, even as we have no idea what they're even agreeing to. You just beneath the surface of what is a very, very good moment is the reality that Trump can kind of do his bombastic celebrations around, but this remains a really difficult and intractable situation. And it's just so unserious, the way he talks about it. It makes you terrified for what could happen.
- [07:04]
Dan Pfeiffer
Yeah. It's unequivocally a good day. I'm glad the hostages are home. I'm glad that there's a ceasefire. I hope it all holds, like, period, full stop. Right. I think a question a lot of listeners are asking is, like, how much credit do we think Trump deserves or doesn't? I would argue, like, people might not like to hear this, but I think he deserves a lot of credit for getting this deal done. Because Trump clearly put real pressure on Netanyahu to say yes to the deal, while at the same time, the Egyptians, the Qataris and the Turks pressured Hamas to say yes and make some real concessions that I think we can get into in a minute. But like, the broader backstory, if listeners remember, like, Trump laid out this 20 point peace deal, he let Netanyahu kind of like massage and shape the deal before it was public to make it more advantageous to the Israeli side. But ultimately, what Trump did, that I think was really important in that moment was he forced Netanyahu to say yes. And I think that happened in part because Trump has a lot of leverage, because he's a popular Republican leader and Netanyahu needs him. Needs him. But also because the Israelis had just fired a bunch of airstrikes into Doha, the capital of Qatar, which pissed off a lot of people and Netanyahu didn't want to piss him off again. So Trump pockets this yes from Netanyahu. Then a few days later, Hamas responds to the plan with kind of like a yes, but they're like, yes, we do a hostage release, yes, we would transfer governance to some technocrats, but we're going to ignore the rest of your whole proposal, especially the parts like we have to disarm and no longer exist, etc. And this is the moment where I think Trump, like, was really pretty smart. He, like, he just took that yes from Hamas and he ran with it. He didn't call Netanyahu, he didn't coordinate a messaging. He didn't let Netanyahu, like, shape it in the public. He just said, yeah, this is great, this is historic. This is world peace. And if anyone asks, like, what about the other stuff that you put forward that Hamas has to do that they ignored, he was like, it's phase one, you know, like, we'll get to that later. And that allowed all the parties to get into more detailed talks where I think then surprisingly, Hamas gave this big concession where they said the IDF can remain in parts of Gaza. There's some reports that they might control half of the Gaza Strip. And what the Wall Street Journal says is like, Qatar and Turkey said to Hamas, like, it's now or never. You agree to this or we no longer going to give you diplomatic cover. We're kicking your political office out of the country. And the Egyptians were like, and on top of that, we're not going to lobby for you to be part of the future governance of the Gaza Strip. And so they said yes, and they agreed to it. And everyone else just like, punted on all the other stuff about Hamas disarming and having to de. Radicalize, etc. And also Trump, like, he let Steve Witkoff and Jared Kushner meet with Hamas directly, usually that's done through intermediaries. That doesn't happen. And that, I think, got them over the hump of feeling like, okay, Hamas, that is, if they give up the hostages, as sick as it sounds, that's their leverage in this deal. Right. And they needed Trump's assurance that he would force the Israelis to go through with the rest of the deal. So I do. Like, I really think he played a critical role here.
- [09:58]
John Lovett
So this is the part that I. The original Trump plan required Hamas to disarm, seek exile outside of Gaza, not be part of governance. Is that still what is expected? Do we know what the outcome is going to be for members of Hamas? Are they allowed to remain in Gaza? Do they have to simply not be part of the government? They have to declare they're no longer part of Hamas? Like, do we have any sense of what happens?
- [10:24]
Dan Pfeiffer
I think that's all to be negotiated now. And I think you're right. Like, that's why steel is so big. It's an enormous moment. It's like the entire everyone. Israel, like, exhaled for the first time in two years. Right. But there's so much work ahead. To your point, though, about, like, how much more there is to do. Like, it really is a mixed bag for the people of Gaza and the Palestinians because, like, hopefully the ceasefire holds. I mean, it's been two years of fighting. I assume it will, but, like, this is a generational reconstruction project. And you mentioned all these leaders who got together today who assigned some deal that we haven't really seen yet that says they'll fund it, but it's going to require a lot of focus, a.
- [11:00]
John Lovett
Lot of money, a lot of governance. Right. Like. Like, we don't know what it's going to look like for, like, what is good. What. What does Israel's security look like on the border of Gaza now? How big of a, like, buffer zone are they gonna. They gonna demand and keep? Like, how much are they gonna require in terms of, like, visibility into what becomes of Gaza? Who is going to oversee it? It's supposed to be Tony Blair last week. I don't know if it's still gonna be Tony Blair next week. Trump is gonna lead the Board of Peace still, I assume. And then it's, you know, it's like, who is contributing this money? Who is overseeing this rebuilding? The place has been level. You know, there's been, like, an effort to say, like, oh, you know, you know, Joe Biden was in a different position than Trump, you know, that this is not because Joe Biden failed to put pressure on Netanyahu in a way that Trump did. I don't know about that, but Netanyahu was sending the IDF into parts of Gaza, taking it, leaving it, retaking it, leaving it more level than it was before. They have razed all of Gaza to the ground. By the end, this seemed to be a conflict in which Netanyahu is just having the military kind of move up and down this kind of leveled place while claiming that they are fighting this brutal war because it is the only way to secure the release of the hostages, while at the same time claiming that Hamas doesn't care whether their own civilians live or die. So now Gaza is completely destroyed. There are still millions of people there who have no place to go. It needs to be rebuilt, rebuilt from the ground up. We have no. Like, if there is some security threat that Israel views as taking place inside of the, of the Strip, are they going to send more, More military back in? Like, we just have no place in perpetuity. Like, it's just a. Like the, the next phase is so tenuous.
- [12:53]
Dan Pfeiffer
Yeah. And so. Right, exactly. Like, it's, It's a huge relief for Israelis. I think it's much more a mixed bag for the people in Gaza and for Palestinians more broadly. Because, look, this is like the biggest ceasefire that's been brokered because of just the scope and duration of the fighting since October 7th. But it's one of, like, a half dozen ceasefires that have been brokered in Gaza between Israel and Hamas in the last 20 years or so. Right. So these things get broken and it's this generational reconstruction project. You're right. Like, Gaza is unlivable. Something like 70 to 90% of the structures are destroyed. There's no plumbing, there's no water, there's no food for, like, there's no way to sustain life there without aid. And I think there has to be an effort by the international community to make sure that what's happened, like, a year from now, that is not just nicer tents across the Gaza Strip, that there's actually a process put in place to, like, begin to rebuild for people. And it's also. This is what's frustrating me a little bit, is it keeps being called a peace deal. It's nothing close to a comprehensive peace deal that would lead to a Palestinian state that's not even being discussed. It's. It does nothing to stop settlement construction in Gaza. Like, obviously, like, those are big. Those are big, more challenging tasks that wasn't, you know, that not everyone was seeking to solve through this ceasefire agreement. But Trump is like, it's a new ton for Middle East.
- [14:14]
John Lovett
Well, that. So what was it a few months ago that Mahmoud Abbas is denied entry in the United States? He's not denied a right to come to the United nations because he's a security threat. Now he's in Egypt meeting with Trump and shaking his hand. So like that, like, it's like part of what makes this also kind of confusing is it's so much based around Trump's ego and his specific relationships and the job people are doing to kind of make Trump feel like he's on their side or to make them feel like they're on Trump's side. Like, I guess, you know, Abbas had posted something about, about the, the, the, the threat on Trump's life during the campaign. And now, now all of a sudden they're kind of shaking hands and he's trying to like lift him back up. To what end? I don't know.
- [14:57]
Dan Pfeiffer
Yeah, that relationship is very odd. I think there's a real question of kind of Netanyahu's future and what happens with him. I mean. Well, on this Biden question, I think it's worth talking about. Like I talked to a couple of people on Biden's team about this over the years. Like the, the kind of outlines of this plan. I don't think it was special. It wasn't some like perfect 20 point plan that was like the right jigsaw puzzle that picked the lock. I think it was Trump using his leverage in a way that Joe Biden wouldn't. That kind of changed things. Now the politics are different. Like, Trump let Steve Wyckoff and Jared Kushner talk directly to Hamas. Imagine if a Democrat did that, right? The entire Republican Party would light itself on fire and probably prosecute that person. But like Trump, no one will say anything about it. Like, we don't want to re litigate all the Biden of it all. But like the times Biden pressured Netanyahu, it was usually about like humanitarian access and aid getting into the Gaza Strip. It was not about real pressure to end the war. I wish he'd done that. But I think what the Biden people would say is, well, you know, Biden knew that Netanyahu wanted Trump to win the election. And in this case, you know, Netanyahu knew that if he pissed off Trump, he would lose not only support from all the Democrats who are already gone, but also from Republicans if Trump turned on him. So he felt pressure in a way he didn't. Now. I don't I don't know that I agree with that. Like, I think Biden had way more leverage. He just never really used it. But that would be the argument from them.
- [16:21]
John Lovett
Well, yeah, and there's some truth to that. There's also, I do think time matters, right? It's now. It's been two years of brutal conflict, and you have, like, just the. Again, Gaza being leveled. You have hostages, families, the families of hostages protesting outside of Benjamin Netanyahu's home. The only other than a few, like, rescues, which I'm glad took place. There was a big hostage exchange In November of 2023, very early in the conflict. There was another one in January of this year. Why? During a, During a ceasefire, During a negotiation, Right? Like, this was always gonna require a negotiation. Could Joe Biden have gotten to this point sooner? I have no idea. But, like, the, the we are in part we are in, the mess we're in with Trump domestically is because we're constantly being told how Joe Biden was not responsible and was constantly overtaken by. By events like, does Trump have more room to maneuver? Absolutely. Why? Why is Donald Trump able to maneuver more than a Democrat? Right? Why is Joe Biden's leadership so fragile and brittle that he doesn't have the space to take chances and push Bibi or, or send emissaries to meet with Hamas in a way that Trump does? How does he have the flexibility that a Democrat doesn't? And, like, why. Don't answer that. Rather than say how much easier of a job Trump had. Why? You know, I don't believe the job of being president is. Is easy.
- [17:39]
Dan Pfeiffer
Right.
- [17:40]
John Lovett
But Joe Biden certainly doesn't possible.
- [17:43]
Dan Pfeiffer
Yeah, No, I think you're right. Like, look, it's been two years, right? Both sides were exhausted by two years of war. But I also think Biden missed a big opportunity when the Israelis killed Yaga Sinwar, the Mastermind of the October 7th attacks. That was about a year ago. You know, that could have been a good window to try to push to end the war. Trump also missed an opportunity, right? I mean, he brokered that ceasefire in January. The Israelis and Palestinians were supposed to negotiate phase two of that ceasefire, which would lead to a permanent end of the war. During the first ceasefire that they had brokered, and they just never did it, never engaged.
- [18:14]
John Lovett
And part of this also is Netanyahu. We know his political interest required the war to continue. That might explain why it had gone on for as long as it did. But it doesn't allow for the war to go on forever.
- [18:28]
Dan Pfeiffer
Right? Right, Right.
- [18:29]
John Lovett
At some point, it's foreign. Save America. Brought to you by Helix. I love Helix mattresses. I have a Helix mattress. I have a Dawn luxe, super comfortable. Talk about the data I saw from my wearable device. My wearable device is my eyelids and they're telling me I'm sleeping like a baby. You know, with the world being what it is, sometimes it's hard to fall asleep. Sometimes you wake up in the middle of the night. You gotta have a comfortable bed. Make sure the bed is good. Cause the rest you can't really control, but you can control the bed. And I love my dunglock super comfortable. I really like at the end of the day, knowing that I have like just a, like a really nice experience waiting for us at the end of the day. Helix knows there's no better way to test out a new mattress than by sleeping on it in your own home. That's why they offer a 100 day trial and a 10 to 15 year warranty to try out your new Helix mattress. Everybody's unique and everybody sleeps differently. That's why Helix has several different mattress models to choose from. Each designed for specific sleep positions and feel preferences. So how will you know which Helix mattress works best for you and your body? Take the Helix Sleep quiz and you'll find the perfect mattress in under two minutes. As I said, I was matched with the Dawn Luxe because it's firm but plush and it's really great. Your personalized mattress is shipped straight to your door free of charge. So go to helixsleep.com crooked for 27% off sitewide. This offer is exclusive for Pod Save America listeners. That's helixsleep.com Crooked for 27% off sitewide. Make sure you enter our show name at checkout so they know we sent you. Helixsleep.com Crooked Mazda Once you discovered the.
- [20:02]
Ad Sponsor / Mazda Announcer
Mazda CX5 Mazda, it doesn't take long to get it. With standard all wheel drive, a premium interior and advanced safety features, it's an SUV that gives you more at every turn. It will have you saying Mazda. The Mazda CX5. It's made to move you.
- [20:19]
John Lovett
Every Mazda SUV offers you an elevated driving experience and refined performance. Discover it at your local Mazda dealer today.
- [20:32]
Dan Pfeiffer
The issue of Netanyahu's political problems was front and center today. Presumably, now that the fighting is over, the pressure could start rising again on him. On his corruption trials, on his leadership and the push for elections. Though, Trump had a helpful idea for how to handle those corruption charges. Let's listen, Mr. President.
- [20:52]
John Lovett
Why don't you give him a pardon? Give him a pardon. I happen to like this gentleman right.
- [21:01]
Ad Sponsor / Mazda Announcer
Over here, and it just seems to.
- [21:02]
John Lovett
Make so much sense. Cigars and champagne. Who the hell cares about that?
- [21:09]
Dan Pfeiffer
So cigars and champagne. That's a reference to Case 1000, which is one of the several corruption cases against Netanyahu. In that case, he and his wife are accused of taking, like, hundreds of thousands of dollars worth of cigars and champagne from, you know, donors, et cetera, friends, in exchange for political favors. So love it. Like, the conventional wisdom shared by yours truly as well, was that Netanyahu wouldn't take this deal because he would lose the right flank of his governing coalition. They would then pull out of the government. And for Netanyahu, that would mean losing power and also the risk of prosecution. But he did take the deal, which leads you to wonder why. And about his political standing. I noticed Netanyahu was booed when Steve Witkoff mentioned his name during his speech at Hostages Square over the weekend. But then, as we heard a minute ago, Trump was like, give the guy a pardon, and he all but endorsed him. Do we think, like, Israel can finally get rid of this guy? How are we feeling?
- [22:07]
John Lovett
You know, the. We have to see what. Like, this is a. Just a. Like, as you said, this a moment of, like, a profound relief, right? Like, kind of the end of. Of hopefully the end of this war. Part of the reason Netanyahu felt political pressure to prolong the war is that once the war was over, the attention would then turn not just to his corruption, but to his abject failure to protect Israel from the worst act of violence in its history. And the fact that he had his attention focused elsewhere, the fact that even, you know, internal documents from Hamas make clear that the division and internal conflict over his effort to take over the judiciary had made Israel look weak to its enemies. That's real. That is real. And that will start. That will once again come to the fore. But the bigger, I think, issue here, and this will be part of what we talk about in terms of Israel's place in American domestic politics, too. Israel, the damage to Israel's standing in the world will remain. I hope this ends. I really do. I hope the ceasefire holds. I hope we're at the beginning of something new. I really do. But it does not end the moral stain of how Israel conducted this war. Even if you view Hamas as being responsible for it, which I do. Even if you believe Hamas could have ended the war sooner, they prolonged it. I believe that absolutely. The fact that Israel was justified in conducting this war, in defending itself. And the fact that it had an achievable goal of releasing the hostages is not like a. A logic force field that, that allows you to. To ignore the brutality of how they conducted it and the collective punishment they inflicted. And that stain will continue. And I. Getting rid of Benjamin Netanyahu will be part of how you move past that, but it won't be enough because Israel will be held responsible for what it did. And, like, how Israel moves forward, I don't know. But part of it will be past Benjamin Netanyahu and the politics he represented.
- [24:11]
Dan Pfeiffer
Yeah, I think that's exactly right. I mean, the accountability question is really two parts. It's like Netanyahu has never taken any accountability for October 7th. He has demanded from others, he has fired others. He is. But he's like, deferred on his own. He said, oh, after the war, that's when we'll figure it out. Well, it's after the war, buddy. Like, let's. Let's see if you're going to investigate yourself. But also you have to ask, like, if a. If a country and a leader can get away with killing 67,000 more people in a conflict like this, periodically starving an entire population, committing war crime after a war crime of being accused of genocide by countless scholars, like, what does it say if they just get away with it? Like, what is left of, like, international laws and institutions that are supposed to prevent this kind of stuff or achieve some measure of justice if someone like BB Netanyahu faces no accountability, maybe is reelected, gets a pardon because the president, United States, stands before the Knesset. And basically Trump's argument there is, like, so perfectly Trump. It's like, you got yours, right? You got your security. In exchange, he got some cigars and some bribes. Like, what's the big deal, by the way?
- [25:19]
John Lovett
He just got his beak wet. He just got his beak wet. Yeah. And the ugliness of just like, it's like, I'm here, I'm in a good mood. Like, Benjamin Nanju's been on my side. I've been on his side. You gotta let these kinds of things go. We're just doing business here. Just a guy doing business. And by the way, like, he's not been convicted. He's not. You know, in the United States, the pardon power is different. He can be. You can pardon someone preemptively. Now, that is an attack on the rule of law. But it's something that's happened here. It would be unprecedented for an Israeli president to Pardon a prime minister before he's even been convicted of a crime?
- [25:58]
Dan Pfeiffer
Yeah, it would be disgusting. So, okay.
- [26:01]
John Lovett
And also that.
- [26:02]
Dan Pfeiffer
So let's look. Look, internally, we don't make this all about American politics, obviously. It's just an enormous moment in the world. But I'm curious, like, we've seen this huge shift in US Support from Israel over the last two years, especially within the Democratic Party. Does Gaza. Does a ceasefire in Gaza change that? Is this inexorable? Are there too many broader structural challenges, like the need for a Palestinian state sort of standing in the way?
- [26:27]
John Lovett
You know, it's not. It mirrors what we were just talking about. The way Israel conducted this war has done so much damage to its standing amongst American Jews. Among the American left. You see it in the way in which anti Semitism and anti Zionism have a blurry line between them in a way that is, like, very disconcerting for Jewish people, especially Jewish people who are appalled by what Israel has done in this war. At the same time, you see groups like the Anti Defamation League use anti Semitism, like cudgel against people with. With legitimate criticism. And all of that has turned, what was an issue that was pretty broadly felt, which is support for Israel's right to exist now kind of in question. And I don't know what happens from here, but I do think it starts with American Jews being able to hold two ideas in their mind at the same time, which is that Israel absolutely has a right to defend itself, but it does not have a right to commit atrocities. And that an Israel that does not protect human rights of Palestinians is an Israel that is not safe, an Israel that is an Israel that is a pariah. And so that if you believe in Israel's right to exist, if you want to have a safe and prosperous Israel, you have to advocate against its conduct of the war and in going forward, a different kind of leadership in that country. And so that's where I'm at on this. But I do think, like, a lot will depend, I think, on what happens in Israel and also what happens with any plan to rebuild Gaza.
- [27:54]
Dan Pfeiffer
Yeah, I mean, there's a lot of talk about Israel's political problems in the US as. As purely partisan, but I think it's more generational. You know, I think it's like people under 40, they've only seen Bibi Netanyahu running the country, and they've seen him, his corruption, his racism, the. The fighting in Gaza, the lack of accountability, and they wonder, why does the US have to funnel arms to this country? Why am I paying to bomb a kid in the Gaza Strip? Like, there is a, an older generation of Americans that was raised at a different time, in a different era, a different generation of leadership in Israel that views Israel very differently. It's like when you'd always hear Joe Biden talk about Golda Meir and this like, you know, beacon of democracy and hope in the Middle east and this, you know, like the story of this like mighty little country, right, like fighting off its opponents. But I think younger people like just see it very differently. And I think, you know, you mentioned it earlier, like the tactic like the ADL and other groups have taken to try to silence debate I think has been really damaging.
- [29:01]
John Lovett
I do too. And by the way, like, if it's alienated me, like, I'm sorry, but I'm, I'm like, I gotta be in the place where you're gonna want like. I feel like I am extremely critical of Israel. I am extremely critical of people that are knee jerk anti Israel and whose. And who do not see enough of a distinction between anti Zionism and anti Semitism. I have like pretty clear in believing Israel has a right to defend itself. I hold Hamas responsible. And then it like I see the way in which they go after Mamdani in a completely bad faith way and how when he goes and meets with Jews, it's not the right Jews for the adl. I see a lot of shit like that. I find it very, I just think it's counterproductive because it turns people who have legitim it, it, it makes opponents of people who have real and valid questions about Israel. And you want those people, right? Including by the way, a lot of Jews. A lot of Jews, especially younger Jews who do not understand how their parents feel about it, do not understand this. And you go, there is a lot of talking past each other, right? Because they go to the story of like Israel founded, you know, and that, that it is a, a bastion of Jewish safety in the aftermath of, of the Holocaust. It is a place where Jews expelled by Arab countries came to find safety. But that is an old story. It's an old story. And an, an old story about Israel's founding because of the Holocaust is not gonna help us any more than an old story about how Israel is some colonialist project is gonna help us. Like where do we, what. How does conduct itself now? How does it defend itself in a way that, that upholds a basic defense of human rights. Now like that, that to me is, is, is, is what matters.
- [30:45]
Dan Pfeiffer
Yeah. And just like Doing this broad brush thing. We're telling everyone that like all anti Zionism is anti Semitism is wrong, or like passing BDS laws across the country that essentially make speech illegal. Like, why is it that people like you and I can be more critical of the US Government than the Israeli government in, in certain settings? And like, by the way, it's not just you and me. Like, it was. Charlie Kirk and Megyn Kelly had nearly an identical conversation about their frustration with, with being screamed at or called anti Semitic if they didn't agree with, you know, 100% of like Netanyahu's line. And I just think like, that's such a bad way to do politics. You're just going to turn people off.
- [31:24]
John Lovett
Yeah, and, but, and by the same token, like, there is a lot of like kind of, I hear it all the time. It's a very easy thing now to be like, oh, you know, it's because they're in the pocket of apec. Apec, often described as kind of foreign involvement in the US when it's funded by American Jews, becomes about like Jewish money. And like they're, they're like, clearly that is a, that is a thread of anti Semitism that exists on the right as well that I think is really dangerous. And at the same time, like the, because being anti Israel became almost like a shibboleth in certain parts of the left, it became so kind of almost casual for people to be chanting things like from the river to the sea and other kind of expressions that while those who say them might claim are not violent or don't speak to violence, it is kind of a, like a kind of abstracted idea that just that if you were to follow to its conclusion, would require what all Israelis to leave a massive terrible and violent conflict, whatever it might be. But it's like Israelis are there, the Palestinians are there, they all deserve dignity, peace and human rights. And like everything after that, you know, I don't know.
- [32:32]
Dan Pfeiffer
Yeah, it feels like the two state solution is very far off. And for all the concern, you know, you and I might have about criticism of Israel veering into anti Semitism or tropes, then you also have Donald Trump speaking for the Knesset, giving Miriam Adelson a shout out, talking about how she's worth $60 billion and how she was the one who got him to move the embassy or to think about the Golan Heights. And you're just like, my God, this is like, we're on another planet right now.
- [32:56]
John Lovett
By the way, also says to her, like, I don't know if she likes Israel or America more. Right. Which, by the way, like, like the, and I know it's like, well, you know, he, he's because, because Donald Trump is on the right and, and kind of seen as like an ally of Netanyahu. He can make jokes that are basically about dual loyalty, which is like, I don't care what he means or what he thinks. I don't care. Like, like, that is a, that's fucked up.
- [33:19]
Dan Pfeiffer
Yeah, it's really bad. Okay, well, good healthy Gaza section from. For sure. We are going to take a turn, though, because Trump, he's over there playing peacemaker in the Middle east, but back at home, he is pressing ahead with sending troops into our cities and having ICE unleash violence on immigrants and protesters. On Saturday, the Court of Appeals for the 7th Circuit ruled that National Guard troops could remain federalized in Illinois. But they maintain for now a lower courts ruling that blocks the troops from being deployed to Chicago streets. But if Trump's plan was to inflame tensions, here, he is succeeding. The Times had a great look at how things have escalated just in the past month to the point where agents in tactical gear are firing tear gas and projectiles at reporters and, and peaceful protesters, including, notoriously, a pastor. A federal judge imposed new temporary rules on force last week, but it's not clear that they are taking hold. On Friday morning, an employee of the Chicago TV station WGN woman who is a US Citizen who is not part of the news department, was tackled and pinned to the ground by masked Border Patrol agents during a terrifying neighborhood raid that was caught on video. But this might not all be enough for Trump, as J.D. vance suggested to NBC's Kristen Welker on.
- [34:22]
Ad Sponsor / Mazda Announcer
Sunday, seriously considering invoking the Insurrection Act.
- [34:28]
John Lovett
Well, the president's looking at all of his options. The problem here is not the Insurrection act or whether we actually invoke it or not. The problem is the fact that the entire media in this country, cheered on by a few far left lunatics, have made it okay to tee off on American law enforcement.
- [34:44]
Dan Pfeiffer
So the media is the problem. Love it. Not the troops in the streets.
- [34:51]
John Lovett
There is a point that he's making that I do. There is this strange thing that seems to happen where Trump does some kind of escalation. He is just sending troops into Portland or Chicago. He's trying to defy court orders by kind of getting around the order, by getting troops from California to Chicago and Texas to Portland, whatever he's trying to do. Meanwhile, you've got mass ICE agents on the streets, they are backed up by members of the military. This, like, unprecedented effort against the wishes of state and local leaders. And then all of a sudden, the question is, but. But is he gonna do the Insurrection Act? What about the Insurrection Act? Is he gonna do the next one? What about the next one? As if, like, that's the most important question. Like, Vance isn't wrong about that. That isn't the most important question. Whether or not he invokes the Insurrection act to send troops into American cities or continues to have American troops on our streets protecting ice. Like, both are very bad. Both are very dangerous. Why are they wearing masks? Why are they there at the. You know, all of these are the more important questions, I think.
- [35:51]
Dan Pfeiffer
Whether or not he does the Insurrection Acts. A pretty damn big escalation, though, right? I mean, it's something you have, like, members of the US Military, active members, conducting law enforcement, like, imprisoning people, zip. Tying American citizens, throw them in jail. Like, that'd be. It is a. It is an escalation. And he's like, oh, well, the media's at fault.
- [36:07]
John Lovett
I think it is an escalation. Of course it's an escalation. I think it's very dangerous. Do I think, like, members like you have ice, which is increasingly a collection of people that are kind of ideologically committed to the Trump project.
- [36:19]
Dan Pfeiffer
No doubt they're scary. It's a bunch of 3 percenters and oath keepers getting recruited and extreme people.
- [36:24]
John Lovett
And, you know, the US Military is a much more diverse group of people who did not sign up to be part of Donald Trump's, you know, urban police squad, which is what they would be. I'm not saying it's not a really serious escalation. I do think it's that. What I'm getting at is more this idea that, like, oh, boy. But the next thing Trump does, boy, that's going to be crazy, right? He's already doing crazy shit. Like, there's plenty of bad happening that he. That J.D. vance can be questioned about. And, like, what we've seen over and over again is Trump loves spitballing about the next thing. He loves being asked about, like, are you going to suspend habeas corpus? He didn't even know what it was. He was like, probably. Who's he? You know, like, so it's like, yeah, that's like, I, like, I'm not. I, like, come away with this. We're constantly asking Trump administration officials to spitball on how much worse they're willing to be, and the answer is always Worse. Yes. They might do it well.
- [37:13]
Dan Pfeiffer
So the vibes in Portland are a little different. We got protesters. They're wearing costumes. They're wearing animal suits. There was a naked bike ride. Where do you land on the antics in Portland? Does protesting naked defuse the idea that there's a violent antifa army? Does it make us look absurd and fringy? Something in between?
- [37:31]
John Lovett
I don't think Portland's gonna do well in the battleground states. I don't really care. Like naked people on bikes in port. Let port. You know what? Keep Portland weird, you know, and if it's gonna be, let it do a thing. Videos of naked people on bikes, everything that points out how ridiculous it is to claim Portland as a city at war, I believe. Was it Chicago marathon this weekend? I think it was like the Chicago marathon. You know, it's like, this is. We're not a conflict zone.
- [37:55]
Dan Pfeiffer
Yeah, no.
- [37:56]
John Lovett
And so I like, have at it. Be weird. Be as. As. As long as you're peaceful. Be as weird and freaky as you want to be.
- [38:02]
Dan Pfeiffer
Yeah, I think I'm there too. I think if I had my choice between, like, dressing in a silly costume weird or a fringe, like nudity bike ride weird, I'd go with the costume because I think Republicans would like nothing more than to spin the naked people on bikes as going for your children or like, whatever the worst version of it is. And, you know, look, we don't always have to think like them. I'm not scolding anyone for protesting. If you're going to protest, more power to you. Credit to you for putting your body out there. Get in front of some ICE agents. But I don't want to see your dong either. So that's where I am.
- [38:37]
John Lovett
Yeah, I guess. Here's the thing. It's like the march of the Pete Buttigiegs will have to take place elsewhere. Portland is going to do it its way. Yeah, I like. I hear you, but like, like, it's.
- [38:47]
Dan Pfeiffer
It is. What is. I'm just saying, like, all things being equal, if I could choose one, I, you know, I choose the Yoshi costume.
- [38:52]
John Lovett
Yeah, for sure.
- [38:54]
Dan Pfeiffer
Let's just hear, though, how later on the show you're going to hear from Leah about the no Kings protests and all the organizing going into them. But here's how. Republicans are already talking about the no Kings protests.
- [39:05]
John Lovett
They have a hate America rally that's scheduled for October 18th on the National Mall.
- [39:10]
Dan Pfeiffer
It's all the pro Hamas wing and.
- [39:12]
John Lovett
The, you know, the. The antifa people. They're all Coming out the terrorist wing.
- [39:17]
Dan Pfeiffer
Of their party, which is set to hold as leader Scalise just commented on a Hate America rally, no King's protest.
- [39:25]
John Lovett
Maria, really frustrating.
- [39:27]
Dan Pfeiffer
I mean, this is part of Antifa paid protesters.
- [39:29]
John Lovett
It begs the question, who's funding it?
- [39:31]
Dan Pfeiffer
Is it Hamas? Antifa. Are we hating America?
- [39:34]
John Lovett
Super. It's a super group. Yeah. I was at the first no King. You were at the no King protest last time. And it was so inspiring. It really was. It was so moving. It was a lot of people with American flags. A lot of people out there with their dogs and their kids and their signs. A lot of people who Mike Johnson doesn't care about. Mike Johnson doesn't care about the concerns of people that don't think exactly the way that he does. He doesn't care that millions of people are genuinely afraid for their country, also heartbroken by what they've seen in their country. Like, genuinely upset. Not because they hate America, because they love America, right? And they're upset about it and they know better.
- [40:13]
Dan Pfeiffer
It's like January six was a day of love now, right, that we're spinning that terrorist attack against the Capitol as okay now, but like a bunch of people getting together in West Hollywood, holding signs with strollers, listening to speeches like, give me a fudgeing break. It's so insulting.
- [40:28]
John Lovett
It's also like, just the way they define these terms down, like terrorism, pro Hamas, like terrorism. What are you talking about? What are you talking about?
- [40:37]
Dan Pfeiffer
And it's both ridiculous, but also it should trouble everyone because right now we're like, terrorists are people you kill.
- [40:45]
Jon Favreau
Right?
- [40:45]
Dan Pfeiffer
Terrorists are organizations that need to be disrupted and dismantled and taken down by law enforcement or the US Intelligence community or what have you, right? And so, like, that is the kind of slippery slope with that kind of language to Stephen Miller's dreams that worries me.
- [41:01]
John Lovett
Yeah, we're far down it because it's not just what they're describing, how they're describing this protest. I talked about this with Leah a bit, but, you know, they're on Indivisible, which was founded after Trump to just organize people at the local level. Little chapters of people getting together to figure out how to do their duty is on a list of people to a list of organizations to be investigated. You have Kristi Noem at this Antifa roundtable last week saying that Antifa is just as dangerous as Hamas and MS.13 and Trende Aragua, right? As they're blowing up boats without any criminal charges or any. Any other other evidence than what they're just Sort of, kind of reassuring us. They know about the people on these boats. Yeah, lawlessly, yeah.
- [41:42]
Dan Pfeiffer
That's the thing in Venezuela, right? They're saying, okay, if you're part of a drug cartel now, you're a terrorist, which means we can now kill you for suspected drug smuggling. Like that's the path.
- [41:53]
John Lovett
And you are an unlawful combatant from a non state actor terrorist group of a cartel. He's like, we can kill you from above and then use the footage to make a snuff film that we put on social media because we are murdering. Because you're killing us with drugs. As if like they're, I don't know, like, like forcing us to take them at gunpoint.
- [42:13]
Dan Pfeiffer
Yeah, it's really bad. And remember the first boat they hit was traveling off the coast of Venezuela, saw a plane above it or something, turned around to go back, then it was struck. And then whatever, the drone or the airplane or whatever did a second pass and hit the boat again to kill all the people who survived. And there were so many people on that boat that most experts you talk to think there's no way that it was just drug smugglers, that there's probably also some people, some migrants who were trying to, you know, go to another location from Venezuela on that boat, who were just innocent victims. So deeply, deeply messed up stuff.
- [42:46]
John Lovett
And we don't kill drug smugglers. That's a criminal enterprise. You have to arrest people, interdict the boat. You can capture the boat. Yeah. You know where it is. You have it on video.
- [43:04]
Jon Favreau
Pod Save America is brought to you by PDS Debt. Debt from credit cards isn't an accident. It's a system built to keep Americans down. The banks profit, the creditors win and families lose. Every call, every fee, every high interest trap is another reminder that the game is rigged. But there's another side to the story. PDS debt has already helped hundreds of thousands fight back. Cutting debt, ending the calls and putting money back where it belongs in Americans pockets, not the banks. Whether you're struggling with credit cards, personal loans or medical bills, PDS debt has custom options to help you get out of debt. They go beyond the numbers to understand your unique financial situation and craft a personalized plan designed just for you. There's no minimum credit score required. They're here to help you save more, pay off your debt faster and start putting money back where it belongs in your pocket. PDS debt is A plus rated by the Better Business Bureau, boasts thousands of five star reviews on Google and holds a five star rating on trustpilot.
- [43:55]
John Lovett
Why?
- [43:56]
Jon Favreau
Because PDS has helped hundreds of thousands of people get out of debt. PDS debt has helped so many people climb out of debt. You know, if you're, if you're looking to ease some of your financial burden, you know, you can give PDS debt a try. It just helps sort of relieve a lot of financial stress that people are facing right now with all this credit debt piling up. It's your money. It's your future. Don't let the system decide for you. You're 30 seconds away from being debt free. Get your free assessment and find the best option for you right now@pdsdebt.com crooked that's pdsdebt.com crooked pdsdebt.com crooked.
- [44:31]
Ad Sponsor / Mazda Announcer
Mazda Once you discover the Mazda CX5 Mazda, it doesn't take long to get it. With standard all wheel drive, a premium interior and advanced safety features, it's an SUV that gives you more at every turn. It will have you saying Mazda the Mazda CX5. It's made to move you.
- [44:50]
John Lovett
Every Mazda SUV offers you an elevated driving experience and refined performance. Discover it at your local Mazda dealer today.
- [45:03]
Dan Pfeiffer
Speaking of attacks on constitutionally protected speech, let's talk about their new rules for reporters covering the Pentagon. So the Pentagon first announced this policy in a memo release on September 18th. That memo demanded that Pentagon reporters agree to submit their coverage to the government for approval before publishing it, including reports about unclassified information. Those who did not sign risked losing their press credentials. That did not fly with basically anyone in the press corps. So the Pentagon released a revised version of this memo on October 6th that dropped the language about submitting their coverage to the government in advance, but replaced it with a threat to take away press credentials from Pentagon reporters who quote, solicit information that has not been approved for release, which is what we usually call reporting. Love it. It feels like this couldn't be a more obvious first amendment violation. No.
- [45:55]
John Lovett
Yeah. I mean, look, Pete Eggseth hates, hates. He's, he's paranoid about people leaking to the press. He's been on a kind of a warpath about this from the beginning. There's all kinds of reports internally of him worried about who's leaking against him. He kicked out outlets from their offices to be replaced by people like Newsmax and oan. They also like kind of changed where reporters allowed to walk in the Pentagon so they couldn't go to in as many places as if like these reporters were some kind of security threat. As if this hadn't been just sort of policy for A really long time. And like a good thing, like just a good thing that, hey, like this is the Pentagon, the home of the most powerful military on earth. But guess what? Here journalists can walk around and ask people questions like that's special about us. That's a beautiful and good thing about us that they don't appreciate. And so now they're releasing this. Obviously the New York Times, the Washington Post, other outlets you would expect said no, but so did Newsmax. That they didn't want to sign it. I don't. That was, that was today, earlier today. They're refusing to sign it because this is an old line. Journalism is everything that's unauthorized. What's authorized is pr. Right? That's what pr. PR is publishing the stuff they want you to say. Everything else is journalism and they're not going to sign a document. And by the way, you can take away people's press passes, you can tell them they can't go to the briefing, not even holding the briefings anymore anyway. It's not gonna stop these people from doing journalism. They're just gonna do it from their fucking phones.
- [47:17]
Dan Pfeiffer
Exactly, exactly. Yeah, I think they have until October 14th, the reporters do. To agree to this policy. So we'll see what happens after that. When this, when this comes out.
- [47:25]
John Lovett
Yeah, this is the. So this is coming out tomorrow when you're hearing this, It's Tuesday. That till the end of the day today.
- [47:30]
Dan Pfeiffer
Yes, exactly. So yeah, it just criminalizes, it just tries to penalize basic news gathering. And I think this is a long term mistake because there is this anti war kind of isolationist part of the MAGA movement. They don't want America in foreign wars. They don't want us to nation build. They don't want the Pentagon to waste money. They don't want service members getting killed in Iraq or Afghanistan. Right. Faraway places. And my argument to all those people would be like, okay, so you want a strong Pentagon press corps like you. This building is spending a trillion dollars a year. They need more oversight, they need more scrutiny or else we're going to see more waste, fraud and abuse. And then like I personally, like when I was on the NSC press team, like I had a lot of arguments with reporters about publishing classified stuff that ranged from like sitting down with the New York Times and learning that they had a quarter of a million State department cables from WikiLeaks and just being like, okay, like guess we're. Or like one off conversations where, you know, you're like, can you please be less specific about how we got that information and just say like reliable intelligence instead of like intercepted communications or something like that. But when I look back on that, I really think the balance of concern was overly tilted towards national security over and over and over again. And that over classification is still a massive problem that has not been tackled at all. And what these new restrictions will do, like you said, like reporters, they're not going to stop reporting because they can't walk around the halls. But like in totality it slowly chips away at their media access and their ability to do their job and their relationships in the building. And it's like you said, replacing like real outlets with fake right wing ones. And it's just like right now Pete Hegseth, who was technically a member of the media until like six months ago, is just mocking them on Twitter. Have you seen this? He's doing like hand emoji waving at them. And like the real threat to national security is what this guy's putting in his signal chats. It's not NBC News.
- [49:28]
John Lovett
Well also it's like you, he, he in one of these things said the Pentagon doesn't belong to the press, it belongs to the people. And I know that Pete Hegseth doesn't understand that the press is meant to be our representative and getting information, but by the way, he needs to be able to tell the story of what's happening at the Pentagon. He'll continue to do interviews and that starts by building trust with major news outlets that have the resources still to do journalism about what happens in our foreign policy and what happens in our military. There's we're. Every week it seems like JD Van sits down for another interview with a major outlet like NBC or abc and then he gets a question he doesn't like, he's like, why does this even fucking exist?
- [50:13]
Dan Pfeiffer
You don't matter.
- [50:14]
John Lovett
Yeah, he's like, you're here, you're here. Have you're doing it because like, like it or not, like you don't you see value in under being part in talking to these people. And like Pete can be like waving goodbye like, oh, what a tough guy. You don't need NBC. Like okay, like you're just doing, you're just doing damage to your ability to lead a department that presumably at some point would like to inform the American people about what it's doing. Not just the people that are watching Oan but everybody.
- [50:37]
Dan Pfeiffer
Yeah, it's just so childish and petty. Speaking of which, by the time you're listening to this, the government will have been shut down for Two weeks celebrating its two week birthday. And as is the case with most two week olds, all we're getting is screaming and lots of shit to clean up. Democrats still aren't signing onto the House funding bill. Republicans still aren't negotiating with Democrats on healthcare premiums. And Mike Johnson won't even bring the House back into session. Instead, they're trying to extort leverage by firing people. On Friday, Grim reaper Russ Vote announced the layoffs of 4,000 federal workers, mostly at treasury and HHS. And J.D. vance made this promise during his tour of the Sunday shows. Let's watch.
- [51:13]
John Lovett
The longer this goes on, the deeper.
- [51:15]
Dan Pfeiffer
The cuts are going to be.
- [51:15]
John Lovett
And Maria, to be clear, some of.
- [51:17]
Dan Pfeiffer
These cuts are going to be painful.
- [51:20]
John Lovett
This is not a situation that we relish. This is not something that we're looking forward to.
- [51:24]
Dan Pfeiffer
But the Democrats are, have dealt us a pretty difficult set of cards. Do you think that the firings are really putting leverage on the Democrats more than just the whole government?
- [51:33]
John Lovett
I don't. Especially when they like kind of giddily talk about how they're going after Democratic programs and basically explicitly saying it's leverage. The bulwark actually covered one set of cuts that is eliminating our government's capacity to do mental health programs and substance abuse treatment programs. Right. They're getting, and which is sort of ironic as we were just talking about, because they're claiming in order to protect America from drugs, they can kill narco terrorists from the sky. But they're eliminating the programs that have helped reduce opioid deaths, which actually happened from 2023 to 2024, which actually a great, I mean, still too many, but a good thing. But now they're decimating the programs that actually help people who are addicted to those drugs. But we only know that because reporters are piecing it together because this is so ham fisted and haphazard and they're not really interested in telling us what they're doing. No, everything that they're doing is only underscoring that while this is a fight over health care, this is an administration that is lawless and doing kind of an authoritarian takeover. It should only make people more resolved to continue holding the line on health care at the very least.
- [52:41]
Dan Pfeiffer
Yeah. And the next big inflection point is Wednesday when troops will start missing their paychecks. But Trump announced Saturday that the Pentagon is going to be moving funds around to make sure that there's no gaps in pay. So like, part of me hears this and I'm like, okay, it's really bad that Trump is Doing this without Congress being involved. The other part of me is like, okay, well, it's good, I guess, that service members are getting paid. But also Trump is kind of giving up what seemed like what they thought was their biggest point of leverage against Democrats. But I don't know. Where do you come down?
- [53:10]
John Lovett
I don't know. This seems to me more in the kind of like, like quotidian way in which administrations during shutdowns and outside of them kind of like blur the lines and kind of move money around semi legally, like Trump in the way that, like, you know, there was a Congress passed a law that said after a shutdown, people have to get paid what they missed. The law is crystal clear. And so the.
- [53:38]
Dan Pfeiffer
Signed in 2019.
- [53:39]
John Lovett
2019 by Donald Trump. Yeah. Uh, and the OMB puts out. OMB under Russ vote puts out a memo saying. Actually, the law doesn't say that. Because if you read this clause a certain way, Congress has to actually say to pay people back. Which doesn't really make sense because the whole purpose of the law is to make sure people are paid back after a shutdown. If Congress has to also say it, then you don't need the law that was passed specifically to do this. It makes absolutely no sense. But they're putting out the draft memo. Why? To intimidate people, to make people think they might not get back pay. To kind of make the shutdown more painful, to make Democrats feel like they're responsible for more pain. And so like the kind of moving money around to pay troops. Fine. Trying to kind of lawlessly figure out ways to hurt people. That is exactly why it was necessary to kind of draw the line on this shutdown.
- [54:26]
Dan Pfeiffer
And Republicans keep saying, you know, whatever things we agree to with Democrats, we'll just use the rescissions process to claw back money anyway. So it's like, I don't know what we're supposed to trust from these guys. There's also like a bigger point, which is I, I feel this in my life. I hear it from others. I feel like doing this show, this shutdown is just not commanding people's attention the way previous ones have. And I've kind of. I thought about why that might be. Like, part of it is because the, the drama around whether the government will shut down is a big deal. And then once it's shut down, it's kind of like every day is just the same terrible shit. But also, maybe it's because Trump is just kind of like causing chaos in so many other ways. I guess today he just wants to be talking about whatever's happening in the Middle east, and that's for once, kind of good news. But it is notable that, like, I'm sure it's impacting a lot of people. I don't mean to minimize that in any way. I'm sure there's, like, government workers listening or like, screw you, I'm not getting a paycheck. I'm scared. I'm not dismissing that at all. But in terms of just like, the broader media conversation, I just don't know that many people are noticing.
- [55:28]
John Lovett
Yeah, it doesn't feel like what it would have. It feels like it's less of a, like, concentrating event than it was in the past. Like, in previous shutdowns, it was like, that was all the news was shutdown day, whatever. Like, everything was focused on that. I do think part of this is just like Trump is a chaos agent. There's a lot of shit happening. You've got mass ICE agents on the streets, like, causing chaos. You've got troop deployments. You have what's happening in the Middle East. You have just the, he's charging his political enemies. You look at the list of things and like, yes, it's, it's not getting as much attention as it used to be. I, I, I wonder the same thing because I do feel it like, which is like, this used to be a bigger deal. I mean, it is true that over the years, they've kind of chipped it. They've, like, they've passed laws to make shutdowns less impactful. Right. Like to allow certain checks to go out to, like, provide capacity. So, like, it has, because it is a, it's a smaller share of the government than what it used to be. I mean, last, you know, shut down in the 90s. That's where, that's where shit went down. I mean, that, like, that, that said, changed the course of history that went on in 1998.
- [56:30]
Dan Pfeiffer
Yes, that's well said. But to add list. I do remember that. I do remember that. Yeah, add to your list of things that are kind of just not making news that Trump is doing. On Friday, he threatened a 100% tariff on Chinese imports and then gave himself like A, till November 1 to enforce it and then seemingly walked it back. So, yeah, this is where it's like, constant.
- [56:51]
John Lovett
It's constant. You never know. You never know. Like, what was the precipitating incident to cause him to say this, to walk it back. It causes the stock market to do a dip and then recover. You wonder who's making Money on that. Who's aware he's going to do that? Who's aware that he's going to undo it? Like, there's just like a. Like he's just a. Like the amount. Like he's a chaos agent in the markets. Yeah. And now it's like, once again, you know, he sees the. Who knows, right? He threatens this thing. He sees the market, he realizes it goes too far. He walks it back. Who knows? And some of it, by the way, like you look at the, like Trump in. In this sort of summit that he's called together, and you see all these leaders talking. There was one moment caught where he's talking to one of these leaders, and that leader brings up meeting with Eric.
- [57:37]
Dan Pfeiffer
Oh, Indonesia, right?
- [57:39]
John Lovett
Yeah, Right. Indonesia's leader brings up that he's gonna meet with Eric and Don, who are.
- [57:43]
Dan Pfeiffer
Not involved at all in anything government related. They don't touch anything government related. There's no reason that they would need to meet with the head of a foreign state. But, yeah, Trump's telling them to go talk to Don.
- [57:53]
John Lovett
Right. And then. And then you have leaders kind of going up there and saying, God, we got to get this fucking guy the Nobel Peace Prize. He made a joke at Norway's expense, which I thought, like, he handled it fine. Like. Like it's better than bombing Norway over this.
- [58:04]
Dan Pfeiffer
Yeah.
- [58:05]
John Lovett
But like, it's just also personal. So you just never fucking know.
- [58:08]
Dan Pfeiffer
Yeah. Everybody he trotted up to the microphone was like, give this man the Nobel Peace Prize. Even net guy was like, I'm going to give you Israel's greatest prize. It's never gone to a non Israeli citizen. And then you'll get. That other one is like, okay, we get it. Okay. One last thing before we get to Lovett's conversation with Leah Greenberg. If you flew on a plane over the holiday weekend, you may have seen a video of Kristi Noem, the Secretary of Homeland Security, playing at TSA checkpoints, blaming travel delays on Democrats. Let's watch.
- [58:34]
John Lovett
It is TSA's top priority to make.
- [58:36]
Ad Sponsor / Mazda Announcer
Sure that you have the most pleasant.
- [58:37]
John Lovett
And efficient airport experience as possible while we keep you safe.
- [58:41]
Ad Sponsor / Mazda Announcer
However, Democrats in Congress refuse to fund.
- [58:44]
John Lovett
The federal government, and because of this, many of our operations are impacted and most of our TSA employees are working without pay.
- [58:52]
Ad Sponsor / Mazda Announcer
We will continue to do all that.
- [58:54]
John Lovett
We can to avoid delays that will impact your travel. And our hope is that Democrats will.
- [58:59]
Ad Sponsor / Mazda Announcer
Soon recognize the importance of opening the.
- [59:01]
Dan Pfeiffer
Government airports in Seattle, Portland, Cleveland, and other places. Said they're not going to air that video because it obviously violates the Hatch act, which prohibits the use of federal assets for political purposes. Meanwhile, a separate, far more fun gnome video is making the rounds as well. Let's watch that one.
- [59:18]
Ad Sponsor / Mazda Announcer
Our government agents are working without pay. Luckily, my boys at ICE don't mind. They're in it for the love of the game. And how did I find them? By running ads like this.
- [59:29]
John Lovett
Do you need a job now?
- [59:31]
Dan Pfeiffer
Yeah.
- [59:31]
John Lovett
Are you a big tough guy? Yeah.
- [59:34]
Dan Pfeiffer
Tough enough for the army or police?
- [59:36]
Ad Sponsor / Mazda Announcer
No, but.
- [59:37]
John Lovett
Do you take supplements? Compliments that you bought at a gas station?
- [59:40]
Ad Sponsor / Mazda Announcer
Daily. Do you like to use zip ties because people in your life don't trust you with keys?
- [59:46]
Dan Pfeiffer
You know it.
- [59:47]
John Lovett
Then buckle up and slap on some Oakley's big boy. Welcome to I.C.E. i like the Tina Fey Tina. Somehow the accent runs from North Dakota to Alaska. One kind of loose mountain accent.
- [60:00]
Dan Pfeiffer
Yeah, it was basically roll long O's Sarah Palin with a hat on. But I loved it. I didn't see that. You flew over the weekend. I flew over the weekend. I didn't see that ad. Did you?
- [60:09]
John Lovett
I didn't see it, no. But I doubt they would play it in Minneapolis. I feel like Minneapolis, such a bastion.
- [60:14]
Dan Pfeiffer
Yeah, I flew out of Burbank, which a couple days earlier had had no air traffic controllers on duty.
- [60:20]
John Lovett
Yeah. In the evening. In the evening. In the evening. Yeah. I talked about it. Love it or leave it. For a brief flickering moment, LAX was the best airport in Los Angeles.
- [60:26]
Dan Pfeiffer
It was only those four hours. Yeah. Hannah texted me, was like, have you seen these reports? Is this true?
- [60:31]
John Lovett
Are we really gonna do this? My flight was delayed getting back here today, but only because a pilot called in sync. So I can't really blame no for that. Yeah, it's so, like, it is such a. Like, it's a small thing. Doesn't really matter. Do I think that, like, you're going to really get people on the line at the airport? Just saying, like, you know what? I am going to change my party registration. Democrats are a bunch of assholes. You know? Like, I'm not really that worried about it, but it's. There's such a. Like, there was a. There was a. Like a. A meme going around that said, hey, like, I have a theory. Everybody's 12. And it's like, why are people eating only red meat and French fries? Because they're 12. Like, oh, there's crime. We should put the army on it. You're 12, you know, and it's like, oh, like, you're mad at the Democrats and you're Head of the Homeland Security. You can make a video and show it to everybody and you're going to. You're really mad. You're going to express it and like, you're 12. You're supposed to be a fudgeing adult.
- [61:18]
Dan Pfeiffer
Yeah. It's one of those things where it's like, it is. We're, we're from the before times, before Trump. It is a shocking violation of the law for people who had to, like, worry about the Hatch act and try not to violate it and, like, actually be concerned about these kind of things. To see that video, it just like, makes you realize that every, you know, it's just absurd.
- [61:37]
John Lovett
I know.
- [61:38]
Dan Pfeiffer
I'm kind of of the view that propaganda works in aggregate in the long term and that, like, videos like this and that all the other ways that government officials are just blaming Democrats, through government channels and official communications, through emails and letters to workforces. Like, I worry it adds up.
- [61:55]
John Lovett
I do, too. I do too. Jokes aside. But it's. There's something about, like, Mike Johnson saying it's a hate America reality or Kristi Noem feeling like, you know what? I'm gonna make a video where I blame the Democrats and I'm gonna play it at all the airports. Right. Like, there. It's. I didn't realize how important, like, forbearance was. Right. Like, we talk about the way in which Republicans are shameless all the time and how powerful shame was as a way of preventing terrible politics. But. But there was also just this idea that, you know what? Like, I may be mad, I may be angry, I might fight Democrats, annoying, I may wanna beat them, but I'm just going to, like, I can be a little bit reserved and I cannot say everything and go all the way because we're sharing a country and I'm. There'll be a Democrat in this job one day, and presumably I would rather them not attack Republicans on the screens while you're waiting to go through the airport. That said, when you're waiting on line at the airport and you see the person responsible for the line, I don't think it's always helpful.
- [62:47]
Dan Pfeiffer
It's a really good point. I know.
- [62:49]
John Lovett
Like when Eric Garcetti used to welcome me at LAX to be like, we got to get rid of, like, truly the worst responsible for this airport. We got big problems.
- [62:56]
Dan Pfeiffer
Yeah. I have the same exact thought about. No one's like, ma', am, you don't want to be seen in this setting. This is not good for anybody. Okay, in a second, we're get to Lovett's interview with Leah Greenberg. But before we do, we want to tell you about some big news. Crooked Media Reads is releasing our next book on January 27, 2026. It's called hated by all the Right People, Tucker Carlson and the Unraveling of the Conservative Mind. It's by an incredible journalist named Jason Zengerly. You know him from New York Times Magazine, lots of other places. Just one of the best in the business. The title comes from Tucker himself. When he visited Hungary in 2021, he praised Viktor Orban for being hated by all the right people. And Jason wanted to write this book about Tucker because, you know, the key to understanding the Trump age is understanding how we as a society stopped seeking truth and started seeking outrage. And Tucker's path from, you know, one of the best magazine writers or or long form writers in the business to what he is today kind of traces that path. So it's an excellent book. I've read it. You will all love it. And you can pre order your copy of Hated by All the right people@crooked.com books also California voters, on November 4th you'll vote on Prop 50 is a ballot measure to stop Trump from power grabbing extra seats in the U.S. house and hanging it onto a federal trifecta.
- [64:14]
John Lovett
You're heard power grabbing as a I.
- [64:16]
Dan Pfeiffer
Haven'T either verb like that until I read it. The best way to make sure Prop 50 passes is to vote yes on November 4th and to make sure everyone you know knows about it. So Vote Save America is hosting an event on Wednesday, October 15th at 8pm we'll get you up to speed on how to take action. You don't have to live in California to join. All you need to do is go to Vote Save America.com Prop 50 this is paid for by Vote Save America votesave America.com not authorized by any candidate or candidates committee.
- [64:44]
John Lovett
Also not paid for by any candidate or candidates committee. I have a limited series that is on the Love it or leave it feed in today's attention economy. The only thing worse than being hated is being boring. That is true in politics but that is because it was true in reality tv. That is the world reality TV built. I love reality tv. It is my escape. It is also clear to me that you can't understand politics in this moment if you do not understand how to win at housewives in this series. Love it or Leave it presents Bravo America. I am sitting down with icons of reality tv. I had an amazing conversation with Dorinda Medley with Parvati Shallow who is one of the greats of Survivor. I talked to Olivia Plath, who was on welcome to Plathville about what it was like to escape a Christian fundamentalist community. I talked to Dr. Terry Debro about practicing medicine and being a parent to LGBT kids on television. It has been so fun to do these interviews. I found them fascinating, interesting and surprising. A lot of stories that haven't been told before. So please check it out. It's going to be coming out every Tuesday for the next eight weeks. You can listen to it as a podcast. It's also on the Love it or leave it YouTube where we love for you to subscribe. So check it out.
- [65:54]
Jon Favreau
All right.
- [65:54]
Dan Pfeiffer
When we come back, you'll hear Lovett's conversation with Leah Greenberg from Indivisible about the no Kings protests.
- [66:08]
John Lovett
Pod Save America is brought to you by Bombas. Fall is here. Kids are back in school, vacations are over, and it's officially the start of cozy season. Which means time to slide into some Bombas. You know Bombas, the most comfortable socks and slippers out there, made from premium materials that actually make sense for this time of year. Think merino wool. It keeps you warm when it's chilly, but cool when it's hot. Supima cotton that's softer, stronger and more breathable than regular cotton and even Ragwool thick, durable, classic cozy sock you'll want all fall. And it's not just socks. Bombas designed slippers that make it hard to leave the house. From Sherpa lined Sunday slippers to packing friendly gripper slippers and even waterproof Eva Friday slides. I have a pair of Friday slides. I use them all the time. They're my go to best part. For every item you buy, Bombus donates one to someone experiencing homelessness. Over 150 million items have been donated thanks to customers and with their happiness guarantee, if you're not 100% into what you get, they'll make it right. No risk, all reward. Plus they're available through international shipping to over 200 countries. I have Bombas socks. I wear them all the time. They're so comfortable. They're great. They're really great quality. They have great designs. I really like the vintage ones that I have. I also like the slides. They're just my go to socks. They're just great.
- [67:10]
Jon Favreau
They're super comfortable socks.
- [67:11]
John Lovett
Head over to bombas.com crooked and use code crooked for 20% off your first purchase. That's B O M B A S.com crooked code crooked at checkout when's the last time you got something that was fast, reliable and affordable. Like almost never, right? Well, US Cellular home Internet is breaking that streak. You get fast speeds, a rock solid connection and a super sweet price, just 39.99amonth. When you bundle it with a wireless plan, that means you can stream, scroll, shop and binge without lag or crazy bills. It's not magic, just really good Internet. Check out US Cellular Home Internet Today built for US terms apply. Visit uscellular.com for details. Joining us now, she's the co executive director of Indivisible, one of the organizations behind this weekend's no Kings protest. Leah Greenberg. Welcome to the pod.
- [68:00]
Ad Sponsor / Mazda Announcer
Great to be here.
- [68:02]
John Lovett
So the last no Kings Protest was on June 14th. It was time to counter Trump's military parade. Several million people turned out. It was genuinely surprising just how much enthusiasm there was. Maybe that is a poor reflection on me. I don't know how surprised you are by the turnout. But what led to the second no Kings protests? Like, what is this organized around? Why this weekend?
- [68:25]
Ad Sponsor / Mazda Announcer
Well, one of the things that we, we heard and we felt from the first no Kings protest was, you know, people needed to be part of a movement. People, people came out in the numbers that we saw because there is growing understanding in this country that something extraordinarily dangerous and threatening is happening. And there is a need for broad, popular, mass defiance of that. And so over the summer, as we have seen, these repeated escalations, right, the passage of the one big beautiful bill that rips health care away from so many people, the attacks on D.C. on Chicago, on Portland, the ways in which this administration is escalating attacks on the First Amendment, across civil society. We've been feeling collectively that it's time to bring together again everybody across the country who will take that stand against authoritarianism, against corruption, against attacks on our neighbors. And so it was an understanding that we had a moment that we could collectively build on, and we had a frame that we could collectively build on and that it was going to be important to continue to foster that sense of mass popular opposition and defiance as the administration tries to consolidate control.
- [69:31]
John Lovett
So you've been getting a lot of free press. Mike Johnson called it a Hate America rally. Why do you hate America?
- [69:42]
Ad Sponsor / Mazda Announcer
I mean, look, this is honestly, it's ridiculous and it's sinister in equal parts. I think it's notable that he called it a Hate America rally because he can't bear to say out loud the name of the actual rally, which is no Kings, which is about the most American sentiment in the entire in the world. Personally, as somebody who led the crowd in the Pledge of allegiance of about 100,000 people in Philadelphia at our last rally, it was a little bit of a surprise to hear that. But I think we can also be really clear about what's happening. Right. Which is that one, they are flailing, they are panicking, they don't have a message on why they are shutting down the government to stop people from getting health care. So they're just trying to grab for anything they can. And two, they're trying to legitimate and set up for the broad attack on civil society that Donald Trump and Stephen Miller have very clearly signaled that they are going to wage.
- [70:31]
John Lovett
Yeah. So speaking of that, we've seen this effort to tie a whole bunch of peaceful, progressive organizations to a nefarious organization they're calling Antifa, claiming that all these disparate groups are connected and inciting terrorism and violence. That is obviously chilling. And then it turns out Indivisible is specifically named as one of the groups potentially being investigated. What was your reaction to that? And are there any signs that this is anything beyond just something in a document somewhere inside the White House or the Justice Department?
- [71:17]
Ad Sponsor / Mazda Announcer
Well, look, I think we have to understand it first in the context of the authoritarian playbook, which is that across a bunch of different fronts in society, they push as hard as they can and they claim powers that they don't have. And they see whether people allow them to do it, allow them to get away with it, whether they fold in advance. And we saw that in how they interact with businesses. We see that in how they're interacting with higher education and law firms. We're seeing that now in how they're interacting with civil society. And so I was not surprised as they started to escalate. I have not been surprised that they are targeting a bunch of the entities that they perceive as mobilizing their political opposition. And it's also really clear that this is a moment when collectively we have to stay rooted in who we are, what we value, what we stand for, and say we are simply exercising our First Amendment rights. There is a First Amendment right to protest this government and the harm it is doing to regular Americans. And, you know, whether or not they're going to try to assert powers that they don't have to wage this unconstitutional crackdown, somebody's got to stand firm and say, we're here and we are. We're going to exercise our rights. And the best way to push back against this kind of unlawful, unconstitutional overreach is more free speech.
- [72:29]
John Lovett
So, yes, I hear that. But they could try to hurt organizations with process. Right. Indivisible is an incredible organization that popped up in response to Donald Trump, and it has mobilized people and it has engaged people entirely peaceful in every way humanly possible. But that wouldn't stop them from trying to put the government on organizations they don't like. And I am genuinely curious. I think that two things can be true. One, you have to be defiant of something like this and not allow it to change what you're doing, while at the same time, organizations on the left need to be ready and buttoned up and figure out how they're going to be prepared for anything that may come. And I just want to understand how you're preparing.
- [73:11]
Ad Sponsor / Mazda Announcer
Absolutely. Well, I mean, the short version is we take these threats seriously. We prepare in advance. We think about what we need to do, both to make sure that we're 1000% intensively clear on our own values, on our commitment to peaceful protest and nonviolence, that we train and support people all over the country for something like no Kings intensively to make sure that they are capable, capable of holding peaceful, joyful events everywhere, and that we're preparing our own organizations in the event of some kind of unlawful or unconstitutional effort to shut down peaceful protest and organized opposition. So we take it seriously. But we also understand that part of the purpose of this cycle of threats is to throw you off your game. It's to distract you. It's to make you back down in advance and not do things that you previously would have done out of the fear of oppression. And so a big part of what we are trying to collectively do, both as an organization and as we call for and move forward with the no Kings protest, is break that cycle of anticipatory obedience, is say, we have these powers, we have these rights. We are going to continue to assert them. And if you want to stop us, you are going to have to show that you are prepared to do unconstitutional things, and then we will continue to push back.
- [74:22]
John Lovett
So let's talk about what that looks like, because we've seen millions of people come out at the previous protests. I hope we see the same this weekend. I'll be out there. I think a lot of people at Crooked are gonna be out there. We're all gonna be. It was the first time. It was an incredibly inspiring day because you saw all these people showing up for no Kings that was aligning with a bunch of unions that were coming out and that had been protesting with immigration Groups that had come out or protesting. It was entirely peaceful, patriotic. It was a beautiful thing to see. There's two big, big reasons big corporations, colleges, law firms, media organizations capitulate to Trump. One, they give him power he couldn't take. Right. They are afraid of him and they bend. The other is that they're not afraid of the opposition, that they don't view the vast number of Americans who don't want to live in a autocracy as any kind of political problem they have to worry about. We've seen signs that that can change. There was a lot of pressure on Disney over Kimmel, but for the most part, they haven't been wrong that Trump is a bigger political problem than those that don't like Trump. In terms of consumers and their reaction, how do you make sure or how do you, how do you transform this incredible enthusiasm that you have helped reveal and show, make clear that that exists around no Kings? How do we turn that into actual political actions, turn that enthusiasm into specific pressure points and changes?
- [75:51]
Ad Sponsor / Mazda Announcer
Yeah, absolutely. And. Well, one of the things that we, we think about a lot at Indivisible is, you know, we've moved into a stage of authoritarian consolidation and power moves differently as an authoritarian starts to take more power. And you have to think not only about your formal political representation, right? Your member of Congress, your senators, et cetera, but the other places in your life where you have some leverage, you have some ability to weigh in, your faith institution, if you have one, your higher education institution, if you are a student or an alumni, your workplace, your professional association, the places where you actually, your role as a consumer, the places where you have some power over institutions that are making decisions about whether they're going to enable and go along with Trump or whether they're going to push back. And so after the first no Kings, we trained about 250,000 people in strategic non cooperation and how to kind of campaign and target and apply pressure to some of those pillars of society, those institutions that are not your formal elected officials, but that are in fact shaping how power unfolds in this moment. And so we're seeing some of that come to fruition, right? There is more organized campaigning getting up and running every day as it relates to higher education, bringing together students, bringing together alumni, people pushing back on this effort to get a bunch of institutions to sign a compact with the Trump administration. So we're seeing some of that. I think the Kimmel incident was a really important moment for people in demonstrating our collective power as consumers. And we're definitely Looking at how do we continue to apply that and support it. Things like pushing on the target boycott, and also figuring out additional ways to use our leverage. And I think we also just have to ask people to collectively figure out how do they push back within their own sphere of influence. Right. Who are you? Are you as. Are you a consumer? Are you an alumni? Are you a member of an institution locally that has some power to push back? What are they doing? What could they be doing? You actually have to figure out how to work that leverage.
- [77:49]
John Lovett
Yeah, it's interesting. There's like a. There's a vicious circle that certainly Democratic leaders, they just don't have a lot of trust either. Morally. Right. They're not viewed as sort of morally courageous leaders. It's the truth. And they're not seen as sort of strategic masterminds. And so they have neither kind of strategic or kind of moral trust. And so people look around, they don't see people doing things. A lot of the times you've helped prove a big exception. And they look up and they don't really trust what they're hearing from above. Right. But you kind of. You can imagine a. Like a virtuous circle where an organization that produces something like no Kings can direct people into a specific action. People heard about friends and others and people online canceling Disney plus. Suddenly there's something that was happening organically. And I guess I'm. My question is, how do we then. How do we. How do we get that next step? Right. Like, how do you. This is our second no Kings protest. I'm very excited about it. How do we then turn this into a pool? What's the political action? We get this big group of people to take next?
- [78:52]
Ad Sponsor / Mazda Announcer
Yeah, well, first of all, I wouldn't. I wouldn't overlook the value of continuing to push Democrats to stand up and to push back. Right. Because fundamentally, we've been on this journey with the Democratic Party over the course of the last nine months where we are trying to move people into a resistance posture. And it has been. It has been a work in progress. And also they are, in fact, currently, you know, really actually going out on a limb to push back on millions of people losing their health care, seeing healthcare prices rise, holding. Holding their leverage as it relates to the shutdown. That's actually huge progress. And, you know, and I think when you get back to that question of how do you move institutions from being afraid, more afraid of Trump than they are of potential consequences for enabling Trump, a big part of that is, is there an opposition party that seems like it's actually willing to use its leverage in the future if it regains power to investigate, to enact consequences for people who went along with this regime of lawbreaking, unconstitutional actions. And we've seen a few of those moments where Democrats really start to say, and there's going to be consequences, but we need to have more. Because part of how we got here in the first place is frankly, senior level, senior level MAGA folks did not experience consequences in 2020 after they literally tried to overthrow the government. And so they have correctly concluded that the modern iteration of the Democratic Party is not one that's going to have consequences this next time. We have to fix that perception problem.
- [80:21]
John Lovett
Yeah. And to your point, right, why, why did we end up in. Why were Democratic leaders willing to go hard for a shutdown? They did it in part because they felt pressure from their voters who said, hey, I need to see a fight from you. And to their credit, right, there are a lot of people that were critical, I think, of, of making the fight about health care. There's some people that thought there shouldn't be a shutdown there, some people that thought the fight needed to be over the entirety of the authoritarian takeover, but they focused on this issue and it does seem to have Republicans on their heels.
- [80:55]
Ad Sponsor / Mazda Announcer
That's right. And you know, look, politics is the art of the possible. And the ability of the Democratic coalition to successfully align around one issue is. It's a step forward. Is it exactly how, you know, if I were in charge of all messaging of everyone, would maybe I would do something differently? It doesn't. They were actually collectively able to get together around health care. And I think what we've seen over the last couple of weeks is that that was a good gamble. It is breaking through in a way that, in a way that a lot of people were really skeptical of.
- [81:25]
John Lovett
You have helped put together with a bunch of organizations what is going to be a ton of people, patriotic people who love this country and don't want to see what's happening to it continue, who are peaceful, who are going to show up with kids and with dogs and with signs. And then you have Republicans like Trump and Mike Johnson and all these other people claiming it's some sort of hate America, antifa radical riot. There may be places where random people decide to, you know, throw a trash can, set something on fire. Right. Like they're gonna try to use those examples. Or there may be other people that show up to try to turn protests into something chaotic and dangerous. Right. How do we Respond to that. How do we make sure like that, how do we make. Make sure that everyone understands that the no Kings protest is a peaceful action by people wanting to make their voices heard.
- [82:18]
Ad Sponsor / Mazda Announcer
Well, first, I think we do everything that we can to ensure that they are peaceful actions. Right. And that is training tens of thousands of people in safety and de escalation and making sure folks have safety plans in place wherever they are to, to support peaceful and joyful events. So that's the first piece. The second, I think is pre messaging this exact playbook. Right. It's really clear as Republicans go on the offense against millions of Americans coming out to express their First Amendment rights, that what they are trying to do is create the permission structure for a broad crackdown on civil society. We can see that coming and we should be saying that right now. Right. That they are collectively trying to put the wheels in motion to support this Stephen Miller vengeful quest to go after anybody who opposes. So I think we can tell people that story in advance in a way that helps them understand it if and when Republicans put that plan into action. And then finally, I think we all have to just collectively understand that we're in a moment where there are risks on all sides. And the way that we talk about, the way that we talk about that in this country, a lot of times it's about kind of like, should I speak out, should I do something right now? What we don't talk enough about is the long term risk of living under a consolidating authoritarian regime where we are poorer, we are less safe, our kids are more likely to be killed by gun violence, we're all more likely to die of communicable diseases because there's no public health infrastructure. Risks to all of us are going up all of the time. And we have to think about it in terms of what is the path, what is the collective action that we can take that puts us on a different path for this country, and that is actions like no Kings and that is actions like coming out this weekend.
- [83:58]
John Lovett
Leah Greenberg, thank you so much for your time. Everybody get out there this weekend. We will see you out there.
- [84:05]
Ad Sponsor / Mazda Announcer
It's gonna be fun.
- [84:06]
John Lovett
I'm gonna bring a dog or a sign. It's probably gonna be a dog, if I'm being honest.
- [84:14]
Dan Pfeiffer
That's our show for today. Thanks, Aaliyah Greenberg for coming on. Jon and Dan will be back with a new show on Friday.
- [84:22]
Jon Favreau
If you want to listen to Pod Saving Mercury ad free and get access to exclusive podcasts, go to crooked.com friends to subscribe on Supercast, Substack, YouTube or Apple Podcasts. Also, please consider leaving us a review that helps boost this episode and everything we do here at Crooked Pod Save America is a crooked media production. Our producers are David Toledo, Emma Ilick Frank and Saul Rubin. Our associate producer is Farah Safari. Austin Fisher is our senior producer. Reed Churlin is our Executive editor. Adrian Hill is our head of news and politics. The show is mixed and edited by Andrew Chadwick. Jordan Kanter is our sound engineer with audio support from Kyle Seglin and Charlotte Landis. Matt de Groat is our head of production. Naomi Sengel is our executive assistant. Thanks to our digital team, Elijah Cohn, Hayley Jones, Ben Hefcote, Mia Kelman, Carol Pelaviev, David Toles and Ryan Young, our production staff is proudly unionized with the Writers Guild of America East.
- [85:24]
Ad Sponsor / Mazda Announcer
Mazda Once you discover the Mazda CX5 Mazda, it doesn't take long to get it. With standard all wheel drive, a premium interior and advanced safety features, it's an SUV that gives you more at every turn. It will have you saying Mazda. The Mazda CX5. It's made to move you.
- [85:43]
John Lovett
Every Mazda SUV offers you an elevated driving experience and refined performance. Discover it at your local Mazda dealer today. When's the last time you got something that was fast, reliable and affordable? Like almost never, right? Well, US Cellular Home Internet is breaking that streak. You get fast speeds, a rock solid connection and a super sweet price. Just $39.99 a month when you bundle it with a wireless plan. That means you can stream, scroll, shop and binge without lag or crazy bills. It's not magic, just really good Internet. Check out US Cellular Home Internet today. Built for US terms apply. Visit uscellular.com for details.