Dan Pfeiffer (5:02)

I think other than the renaming various things on various maps, we should take all of it pretty seriously, even if the order seems more symbolic or so legally dubious that even this Supreme Court is likely to strike it down, because it all sends a message to the Project 2025 goons who be running this government about what they should do. Right. The order on investigating the investigations to understand the weaponization of government, that's kind of a fake thing, but that is a signal to Kash Patel and the people who work from the people in Pam Bondi's DOJ that we want to investigate these people. Right. Even if the order doesn't mean that much, it sends a dangerous signal to dangerous people. And so we should take it quite seriously. Having to choose amongst this list of terrible things as the thing that's most terrible is pretty hard. But for me, the stuff I'm most concerned about is all the climate stuff. It is pulling out of Paris. It is getting rid of electric vehicle incentives, in part because on climate, it's the one thing we don't have time to waste. Right. We're already behind schedule and trying to get where we need to get to keep the planet alive. And wasting another four years on Donald Trump is deeply dangerous. And it's time. We can't get back on some of these other things. If we can survive these four years, you can go back and you can undo the worst policy does. You can issue new executive orders, you can pass new laws on climate. We're never going to get those years back. And I think that comes at a great cost.

Jon Favreau (6:31)

Yeah, I think the climate stuff is pretty horrible. I think probably the most bullshitty executive order is the one on price relief bringing down inflation. Because the idea that the Biden administration had levers within the federal government to lower prices and didn't pull them. Even if you think that they don't really care, at least they care about staying in power. You think just. Just would have been. Just would have been more popular to have lower prices. So you think they would have done that. But that's probably because there are no levers in the federal government to break down prices that Joe Biden hadn't already tried over the last four years. So that is clearly window dressing and just sort of bullshit. Let's talk about the January 6 pardon, which, while promised by Trump during the campaign, I think it's fair to say were not expected to be this broad. Pardons and commutations, even for people convicted of brutally assaulting police officers, and for the leaders of the Proud Boys and the Oath Keepers, which are two far right paramilitary groups. Those two leaders had been found guilty of seditious conspiracy as recently as January 12th. Vice President J.D. vance said, while defending potential pardons for nonviolent offenders, quote, if you committed violence on that day, obviously you shouldn't be pardoned. J.D. vance, if you committed violence on that day, obviously you shouldn't be pardoned. Not so obvious to J.D. vance's boss, who, according to reporting from notice, decided to extend the pardon to even the most violent criminals because of the blowback to Vance's interview from Trump's base. According to Axios, Trump said, fuck it, release them all. Trump did an interview with Sean Hannity on Wednesday night where he talked about his reasoning. Number of reasons. Number one, they were in there for three and a half years, a long time, and in many solitary confinement, treated like nobody's ever been treated. It's treated so badly. They knew the election was rigged and they were protesting the vote and that you should be allowed to protest a vote. You should be allowed to, you know, the day, when the day comes, you.

Dan Pfeiffer (8:37)

Shouldn'T be able to invade the Capitol.

Jon Favreau (8:39)

Ready? Most of the people were absolutely innocent, okay? But forgetting all about that, it would be very, very cumbersome to go and look, you know how many people are talking about? 1500 people. Almost all of them are, should not have been. This should not have happened. They were very minor incidents, okay? You know, they get built up by that. A couple of fake guys that are on CNN all the time, nobody watches. They were very minor incidents. I'm so angry about this. I want to talk about Michael Fanone for a minute. He's a D.C. police officer. He was beaten within an inch of his life on January 6th. Wasn't even on duty that day. Responded to radio calls for assistance. After he got there, the rioters dragged him down the steps, sprayed chemicals in his face, beat him with pipes, tased him repeatedly in the back of the neck and said they were going to kill him with his own gun while he said, please, I have kids. He suffered burns, a concussion, traumatic brain injury and a heart attack. He had to retire, he testified at the January 6th trial. He's gotten threats, his family's gotten threats. He said that as recently as a month ago, his 76 year old mother was outside gardening and someone threw human feces on her Trump supporter because of her son. The man who tased Michael Fanon is Daniel Rodriguez from California. He saw Trump call for protest on January 6, got on a big group chat, told everyone to bring knives and bear spray to Washington where he said he would, quote, hang Congress. And after he tased Michael Fanone until he lost consciousness, he wrote on the group chat, quote, tased the fuck out of the blue. And after he Pleaded guilty to assaulting an officer with a dangerous weapon. He walked out of the courtroom, he screamed. Trump won. He was sentenced just about a year ago. And now he is free. No shorter sentence, free. And now Michael Fanon is trying to get a protective order because the rioters who were pardoned are now threatening to go after the people who, who sent them to prison. I don't know what to do with that, Dan.

Dan Pfeiffer (10:57)

I mean, it is so deeply dangerous. And the way Trump talked about it is just, it's pure gaslighting, right? None of what he's saying is true. Nothing that he describes happened the way it happened. These are not peaceful protesters. It's an entirely made up reality to justify this pardon. And it's all belied by video evidence, testimony from the people who were there, testimony from some of his allies and former aides. And he has created this false reality. And I think the scariest thing about it is he clearly believes it. A lot of things Donald Trump says that he obviously doesn't believe. He has convinced himself about what happened on January 6, that it is something that was not violent in the way it was, and that the violence that did happen was justified because it was on his behalf. And it is quite, quite scary.

Jon Favreau (11:54)

And look, for all the Republicans and other people who think, oh, we're going to re litigate January 6th again, and we're looking back, this is actually about the future, why this is so dangerous, because now Donald Trump has pardoned all of these right wing extremists who were armed, who committed violence, who are not apologetic at all, who are not, you know, maintaining their innocence. Either they know they're guilty, they've said they're guilty, they're not apologetic, and now they're out of prison. And other right wing extremists who might want to cause violence now know that if you commit violence in Donald Trump's name, then he's going to, he's got your back. And so why wouldn't they commit violence again? Now they're all talking about revenge, revenge against the people who testified, against the prosecutors, against the judges who put them in prison. And so like when the proud boys come to your community and start marching or menacing people or whatever the hell they do, what are the police gonna do? Knowing that when last time a police officer was beaten within an inch of his life, that the perpetrator was just released, are the police going to protect us? Who's going to protect people? Because it's Donald Trump's. Whether or not Donald Trump thinks it's his private army. They think they're Donald Trump's private army. That's what they think.

Dan Pfeiffer (13:17)

What does it say about the politics of the Trump coalition that they believed that it would be a huge political problem to not pardon right wing militia groups? I mean, that's where it is. That would be a political problem. And I think these pardons are the fullest expression of that famous quote from Frank Woolhoit that went viral a few years ago. Conservatism consists of exactly one proposition. To win, there must be in groups whom the law protects but does not bind, alongside out groups who the law binds but does not protect.

Jon Favreau (13:48)

Yes.

Dan Pfeiffer (13:48)

If you support Donald Trump, you have the full protection of the law. If you do not support Donald Trump, if you oppose him, then the law will be turned against you. That is the message of Donald Trump on the first day of his presidency.

Jon Favreau (14:01)

Meanwhile, even before he sits down with Hannity, Trump allies were having trouble defending these pardons. Let's listen to some Republicans. What about those who assaulted police officers and then were pardoned by the President?

Dan Pfeiffer (14:14)

I haven't seen any. I haven't, I haven't gone into the detail.

Faz Shakir (14:17)

What do you think of President Trump's.

Jon Favreau (14:18)

Pardons for violent offenders? I'm grateful that President Trump is President of the United States.

Dan Pfeiffer (14:23)

I certainly don't want to pardon any violent actors, but there was real miscarriage of justice here, so I'm totally supportive of it.

Jon Favreau (14:31)

Are you comfortable with that?

Dan Pfeiffer (14:32)

I haven't seen the details, but supposed.

Jon Favreau (14:34)

To get 12 years, you got less than one. Are you okay with that? It's not my place. It's the President's own decision and he made a decision. Again, it's not ideal, but I'm not overly concerned about it either. I think that the gift is that it's all behind us now. We can stop talking to it. Pathetic. Pathetic. I think those Republicans. I think every elected Republican should be asked that question. Who refuse to answer it should be asked that question every single day. That any reporter can get in their face and put a microphone there. The ones who are walking through Congress. I mean, I just, at least, at least answer the question. At least have the courage to say, yeah, I support the pardons of the violent criminals who beat the shit out of police officers and almost killed them. Yeah, I support it. At least say that instead of just running away. I mean, do you think that Republicans will pay a political price for defending this? Is this something that, like, you know, is going to, is going to haunt some of these members when they're up for reelection in two years.

Dan Pfeiffer (15:38)

It will haunt them more if the reporters and others in politics are aggressive about continuing to ask the question. And we don't just give up after six days. These capital reporters, many of whom also had their lives in danger on January 6, are going to see these members every single day. Are they going to keep asking about this or are they going to switch to their opinion on whether it's one bill or two bills or whatever else? Like, if they drive this, then it has a greater chance of staying in the public consciousness. The pardons are very unpopular. Right. Large majorities oppose them. Even a significant number of Trump's most ardent supporters don't think they're a great idea. And I think we should, Democrats should scream from the rooftops about this as much as we possibly can, because most voters are not going to know this happened or they're not going to understand exactly who he pardoned and what those people did and what the consequences of that are. But I do want to sort of level set expectations on the politics of this in the short term at least. And this gets to what I think is one of the analytical errors that I made in 2024 when talking about this election is we have to sort of understand the difference between the popularity of an issue and how big a priority is for voters. These partners were always unpopular. Every voter people said they did not like them. They do not like it when Donald Trump talks about January 6th. But in the end, for most of the voters who were persuaded, well, this did not drive their vote choice because they cared so much about costs in immigration to a slightly lesser extent that they're willing to put up with a whole bunch of shit that Donald Trump was willing to do that they did not like if he was going to lower the cost. So the political price of this is going to come if and when prices don't come down, as Donald Trump says, or the border's not become more secure, or America continues to feel more chaotic in the short term. Is this gonna move things a lot? Probably not. But that doesn't mean we shouldn't keep talking about it. Cause it's incredibly important.

Jon Favreau (17:21)

Yeah, I get why it didn't move vote. First of all, how many people knew that he was promising pardons like this? How many people knew exactly what these people did? And it's a prospective promise during a campaign. And it's not something that you're experiencing while you're going to the voting booth. Now he's done the pardons. Now we should be telling the stories of what happened. Because I think this goes like, okay, what if prices do come down, but there's still paramilitary groups roaming our communities? Right. Like, probably we should say something about that. Probably we should let people know what's happening, and we will get into the Democratic discussion about how Democrats are responding. But I completely understand that the driving force behind Trump's victory and probably the central challenge that has destabilized American politics has to do with people's living standards and yawning economic inequality in this country is. And so I completely understand that. But sometimes I think you just have to talk about one thing, and then you have to talk about the other thing. You have to be able to talk about both, especially this far out from an election, because I think this is the time, if any time to seed the ground and make sure that people know what has happened and what the stories are.

Dan Pfeiffer (18:45)

Yeah, I think maybe the way to think about this is. And one of the strategic errors of the first Trump term was there was, like, this belief, this intuition among so many Democrats that we were just, like, one thing away from people abandoning Trump. They could just learn this one singular piece of information about him, then they would walk away. And we spent a lot of time screaming about all of those things. And the way to think about it now, because he just did this on the furthest distance possible from the midterms, when he will actually have to be be held accountable nationally for his political misdeeds, is we actually tell a story about Trump. Right. And not just about Trump, about the Republican Party in the Trump era is probably the way to think about it. And this needs to be a piece of that story. It's not just that we're just like, he pardoned these people. They're bad. Look at all the terrible things. Look what it means that that's gonna move things. It's just like, over time, right? We're not trying to move his numbers today. We're not trying to move his numbers tomorrow. We're trying to make a case against him that is going to bear fruit for us when voters actually vote Virginia and New Jersey in November, and then nationally in the House and Senate elections next year.

Jon Favreau (19:53)

One way to think about this that I've been thinking about is our kids. In a couple years, your kids probably even sooner, are going to know the details of these stories of what happened, or they're going to learn about it in school at some point, God willing. Who knows? If the curriculum hasn't been changed by Donald Trump's administration, by the regime, they're gonna Learn about this. And they're gonna be like, okay, so these people beat up these cops. This cop had a heart attack, he was threatened. And then Donald Trump let them out of prison. And then they said that they wanted revenge and that they were gonna go buy guns. And so what did everyone say? What did everyone do? And you know, we're gonna say, oh, well, the Republicans pretended that it, it wasn't happening. The pretend. The Republicans tried to avoid the. What did the Democrats do? Well, the Democrats complained about it, but then they said that's certainly not lowering the price of eggs. And like, I'm not, of course, I'm only half joking because I will say a lot of statements from Democrats about the pardons that included the price of eggs in the statement about the pardons. I'm like, no, no guys, that's not, that's not the time to do that now. I'd like. And I feel bad cause we have suggested that, you know what I'm like, no costs are it. Right? Like standard of living. That is the central challenge. That is the challenge that most voters are dealing with. Democrats have to talk about it. We have to reckon with it. It's going to drive vote choice. That doesn't mean combining it with everything awkwardly.

Dan Pfeiffer (21:29)

Yeah, I think there is a difference between the story you're trying to tell in the words you use every single day. Right? Like you don't like the log line here is that Donald Trump failed to lower prices because he in part because he did all of these other things instead of that. That's not what you say. Right. It is reading the stage directions out loud. You can scream about the, the pardons as we should. Understanding in the back of your head that the longer game here is, is going to be around prices. Like, you don't have to jam it all into one tweet or one skeet or one statement. You can just scream about this and then over the course of time you are making a case about all of the things he did that people don't like, which are going to have much more political weight when he undoubtedly fails on the promises he made that they care the most about.

Jon Favreau (22:24)

You can even do a multi part skeet.

Dan Pfeiffer (22:26)

Do not thread this. It doesn't have to be a thread. It can just be. Just, just make a point.

Jon Favreau (22:32)

Reading the stage directions is just such a good description of what so many Democrats have been doing this week and maybe the last several years, the last decade. Like just stop reading the stage directions, please. It does tell me something about how Republicans view the Politics of this. Mike Johnson gets asked about it and says, we're not looking back, we're looking forward. And then three hours later, Mike Johnson announces that they're going to investigate the January 6th investigation that Congress undertook. And the reason why we now know, because of reporting from cnn, is that Donald Trump asked Mike Johnson to go investigate the January 6th committee. And Johnson was like, it's a little looking backwards, I don't know. But of course, Johnson has to do whatever Donald Trump says because they are all doing whatever Donald Trump says. There is no Republican left that is trying to actively oppose him. We had a few Republicans who said they don't agree with the pardons. Good for them. Lisa Murkowski, Tom Tillis, some others. But no one is making it. None of the Republicans are making a big deal out of it.

Dan Pfeiffer (23:38)

Yeah, I mean, in their minds. And they're not incorrect on their short term. Politics is if you're on the wrong side of Trump, you're out of the Republican Party.

Jon Favreau (23:45)

Right. What do you think about the one excuse you hear from some of them as well? Joe Biden did all the pardons. So Joe Biden pardoned his family and he did those prospective pardons for Fauci and Cheney. And so if he's doing pardons and Trump's doing pardons, all the pardons are bad.

Dan Pfeiffer (24:01)

I don't love Joe Biden's pardons, particularly the one while I'm very sympathetic on the Hunter one. The ones for the rest of his family six minutes before he left office I think are much harder to defend.

Jon Favreau (24:11)

That's a good move. Yeah.

Dan Pfeiffer (24:12)

But if you think that Donald Trump did all of these pardons in this way because Joe Biden did some pardons the day that, earlier that day, then you were too fucking stupid to be in politics.

Jon Favreau (24:22)

Well, then you didn't. Then you were like in fucking a coma for the last year because he talked about it every day on the fucking campus.

Dan Pfeiffer (24:29)

Yeah, of course he was going to do this. Now, Biden made probably slightly leavened the political pain that could come from this because a lot of the coverage is the Biden pardons and the Trump pardons. Look at how presidents are now breaking norms left and right. He, he gave the press an opportunity to do its favorite thing, which is default to the pox on both your House's narrative and that both sides are.

Jon Favreau (24:55)

Doing it once again. Joe Biden, in his last move in the White House nailed the messaging and communication, you know, but because he's very heels at that.

Dan Pfeiffer (25:02)

There is a, there is it. But I don't love Joe Biden's pardons. There is a fundamental difference, morally, legally, in every other sense between proactively pardoning your family and pardoning 1600 people who assaulted the Capitol, some of whom committed violence against police officers or members of right wing paramilitary organizations because they were on your side. Like, those are not the same thing. They can both not be awesome, but one is a lot less awesome than the other.

Jon Favreau (25:33)

Yeah, I mean, I could be wrong, but I don't think Anthony Fauci tased anyone until they had a heart attack.

Dan Pfeiffer (25:38)

We'll find out soon.

Jon Favreau (25:47)

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Dan Pfeiffer (27:34)

Jon Stewart and the Daily show news.

Jon Favreau (27:35)

Team are kicking off 2025 with brand new episodes covering a brand new administration and a not quite brand new president.

Faz Shakir (27:42)

While it may feel like we've all.

Jon Favreau (27:43)

Been here before, it's never been covered like this. With Jon Stewart behind the desk kicking off every week, Comedy Central's the Daily show new weeknights at 11 on Comedy Central and streaming next day on Paramount. Plus, let's talk about the immigration moves. We could do a whole show about this. I imagine we'll probably end up doing that at some point. We'll talk about this a lot. Just to start, what do you make of the move so far in immigration and what did you make of that directive to prosecutors to go after any official who tries to stop the deportations?

Dan Pfeiffer (28:15)

Well, let's start with the directive, which is, could not be more ironic in the sense that it is exactly what Donald Trump has been running against in his mind for the last four years. Right. It is weaponization of law enforcement, apparatus of the government to scare people into adhering to your policy agenda. Right. That is like if you are someone who, in a, in a city, in a blue city or somewhere else, or law enforcement, local law enforcement, and you have every reason to be afraid that this Department of Justice will prosecute you. And even if ultimately you will be found innocent or the, or you won't end up being indicted, you're going to have to spend your own money and your own resources to defend yourself legally against this. This going to upend your life, it's going to potentially ruin your reputation. And so he is trying to remove all obstacles to anyone who will stand up against him.

Jon Favreau (29:06)

I think the other thing that has stood out to me about all of the immigration moves is Donald Trump's first term. He basically cut legal immigration, legal immigration by more than he reduced illegal immigration. So again, much like the cost of living and prices, a lot of people voted for Donald Trump thinking there's a situation at the border, they need to control the border. You know, there's been an influx of immigrants coming into our cities that we can't care for. This is a problem. Can we get this under control? And what Donald Trump is saying is, actually, I wanna, I wanna go after legal immigration, birthright citizenship, not just for people who've just crossed the border and had a child here. No, this is people who are here on student visas, H1B visas, people who are here legally. Now he's suspending the refugee program. Refugees, refugees, who we take into this country are the most vetted people of any immigrant. When we take refugees. And suspended the refugee program, suspended asylum. People like Steve Bannon and that wing of the party, they want to cut legal immigration. Stephen Miller wants to cut legal immigration. They don't want the H1B visas, that whole fight we talked about. So it is hard to look at his immigration moves as moves that are about national security, people's safety, anything like that order in the immigration system. And more about the Trump administration deciding that they want to define who is an American and who is not.

Dan Pfeiffer (30:40)

Yeah. The national security threat in the minds of Donald Trump and Steve Bannon and Stephen Miller is a diverse, pluralistic society. That's what they're trying to stop. And that anyone who represents change or diversity is a threat. And that applies to immigration. It applies to their policies on DEI programs and all of it. And that is exactly what they're doing. And I think the scary thing here is a lot of this is warmed over policy from the last time, but they are just implementing it faster, more aggressively, and seemingly with more precision than before. They now know how to pull the levers of government in a way they absolutely did not. It was just a clusterfuck the first time around. They didn't even know what they're doing. If you remember the Muslim ban, they had to rewrite it like, five times to get it through. They made huge errors that delayed implementation. And now for what we can tell, they're not going to make as many of those errors. They have real people in charge of things. The entire government is on board with Trump's immigration plans. And before, there was a wing of the government that was for it, and part of his White House staff was resisting it. Right? Including his. Yep, including some of his closest aides. And in this case, everyone. Everyone is moving forward to do it. And that's where it's the most scary.

Jon Favreau (31:53)

All right. This is what counts as lighter fare. When I got to the mini.

Dan Pfeiffer (31:57)

How fun.

Jon Favreau (31:59)

A mini drama erupted on Wednesday when Elon Musk went on the attack against a $500 billion AI initiative that Trump had announced the day before in the Roosevelt room with the SoftBank CEO, billionaire Trump donor Larry Ellison, and Elon Frenemy, Sam Altman of OpenAI. Elon responded on X, quote, they don't have the money. And then Sam and Elon got in a bit of a slap fight online. What's going on here? Why, why, why is Elon Musk mad about the artificial intelligence initiative announced by his pal Donald Trump and all those other billionaires? I thought he loves AI.

Dan Pfeiffer (32:32)

He does. He, he, he does love AI, I think, but he hates Sam Altman more than he loves AI. Right. Elon was on the board.

Jon Favreau (32:40)

He also loves his. He loves his AI.

Dan Pfeiffer (32:41)

Yes, yes. Which we're going to get to right this. In the big tech world, in this club of billionaires, it is like, it's all about money, but it's there. There is a high school cafeteria element to this, and it's a little.

Jon Favreau (32:53)

It's a little dick swinging contest. That's what it is.

Dan Pfeiffer (32:59)

All the people at the outcast table in the high school cafeteria now are fighting over being at the cool kids table.

Jon Favreau (33:04)

Um, yeah, just keep in mind, Donald Trump is the cool kid.

Dan Pfeiffer (33:08)

Yeah. What a fucking world we're in. But Sam Elon and Sam Altman founded OpenAI together. That Elon left it in dispute about its direction. Elon then started a competing AI model, Grok, which is part of Twitter. He does not like the people involved. He did not, I imagine, did not like being on that stage because he, Twitter does not have the money to be or X does not have the money to participate in such an endeavor like OpenAI and the others do. And so he just did what he always did, which is say what was the top of his mind without really thinking about it.

Jon Favreau (33:44)

It's also watching Sam Altman, who in 2021 was tweeting, thank you, Reid Hoffman, for everything you've done to help defeat Donald Trump. And we're so lucky he's not in the White House anymore. We've defeated Donald Trump. This is great. He was like our. He was resistance pilled at one point. He was tweeting polls in 2017, like, what should we call him? Dangerous Donald? Like, this is Sam Altman. And then just yesterday or the day or this week, he posted on X. Wow. You know, I think I was wrong about Donald Trump. And now that I met him in person, I'm really excited about what he's gonna do for the country. Give me a fucking break, man.

Dan Pfeiffer (34:22)

I mean, I met Sam Altman in 2017 at a series of meetings about trying to bring together political folks and tech folks on how to defeat Donald Trump and fight back against MAGA extremism. And now he's on stage just giving him billions of dollars now that he's.

Jon Favreau (34:38)

Free of your brainwashing, Dan, your liberal propaganda that you were spouting at him. Now, thank God he got to meet Mr. Trump so he could see firsthand how great he is. So is Elon, like, now the most powerful person in government? And I say in government because he's going to get a. He's got a White House email and he's apparently getting a West Wing office. He was originally going to be in the eeob, Old Executive Office Building. That's the one next to the West Wing, because there's not a lot of. Not a ton of West Wing offices. But Elon was not going to have that. Now he's in the West Wing with his buddies. He pushed Vivek Ramaswamy out of Doge. Vivek's now running for governor because apparently Elon didn't like his weird thread about Saved by the Bell and, you know, we need to have more screeches and fewer Zachs and all that kind of stuff, which, you know, point to Elon on that.

Dan Pfeiffer (35:28)

Yeah, just. That was an understanding of the plot of Stay by the Bell.

Jon Favreau (35:33)

Correct? Correct. But so, like, is Elon the most powerful person right now? Steve Bannon was taking shots at him for this OpenAI thing, the fight with Sam Altman. He was like, Donald Trump needs to sit him down. I can't believe that he's just out there and he's been brought into government. Now he's criticizing the president, you know, because Bannon hates him. But what do you think of this whole thing?

Dan Pfeiffer (35:52)

Yeah, I think he is the most powerful person in government by far and one of the most powerful people in the world because Donald Trump has limited leverage over him compared to everyone else. Anyone else can kick out of government. He can support a primary challenge against him. He can use his Twitter account or his Truth Social account to trash their reputation and send a mob of people after him. Elon has more money than Trump. He doesn't need Trump per se. And he also has a very vicious, aggressive, very large online mob of people who support him. And so Donald, you can see it. Donald Trump treads lightly around Elon and away. He does not tread lightly around anyone else we've ever seen.

Jon Favreau (36:30)

Yeah. Wonder how long it'll last. So, more from the Hannity interview. They talked about a lot of other stuff besides January 6th. I think it's safe to say that both men were really feeling it. They were really happy to be together. Let's listen.

Dan Pfeiffer (36:44)

After four long years, President Donald Trump.

Jon Favreau (36:47)

Is back where he belongs.

Dan Pfeiffer (36:48)

He is in the Oval Office.

Jon Favreau (36:50)

Joe Biden has very bad advisors. Somebody Somebody advised Joe Biden to give pardons to everybody but him. They wanted to take care of the economy. Yeah, but sure they wanted to. I don't care. This guy went around giving everybody pardons. And you know, the funny thing, maybe the sad thing is he didn't give himself a pardon. And if you look at it, it all had to do with him. And I heard Schiff went to him and just begged him for a pardon. Because Schiff is a crook, I will say that. So I don't know if you watched the whole interview, but that clip, he has like a sort of menacing tone, but is a little vague on investigating Biden or Schiff. But at one point, you know, Hannity asks him about just sort of, you know, vengeance in general and retribution and all that, and he gets really angry and really dark and is like, I went through hell these last four years and, you know, maybe people need to go through that. Like it was I, you know, we are on a watch what he does, not just what he says kind of, kind of path here, but I hear something like that. I left that interview thinking, oh, man, he really wants to do these investigations.

Dan Pfeiffer (38:07)

Yeah, 100%. I mean, he implicit is doing a lot of work here. But he threatened Biden repeatedly. Right. See? Seems weird, seems unfortunate he didn't pardon himself.

Jon Favreau (38:19)

Like says it's funny, kind of sad. Yeah, maybe it's sad, maybe it's funny.

Dan Pfeiffer (38:23)

And I mean, there is this. You and I, based on a series of misbegotten professional decisions, are forced to watch all of the Trump Hannity interviews over the last near decade. And there was always this moment where he sees Trump about to light himself on fire and he tries to use, like, gentle parroting techniques to shift the interview onto safer territory. And so you hear him in that clip being like, I want to get to the economy. Seriously, the economy, high prices. And Trump's like, I don't care. I want to talk about prosecuting my opponents.

Jon Favreau (38:52)

Yeah, yeah, that's what we got. There was also, by the way, a very long discourse about the fires in LA and smelt and turning the valve on in Northern California so that the water flows down to Los Angeles. It is, that's like, for the, that's the old days, we would have played that. But if you, if you want to laugh or maybe you'll cry, you know, go take a listen to that and we'll probably hear it again when he goes to Los Angeles on Friday.

Dan Pfeiffer (39:20)

I'll tell you when we cry, which is when he conditions a fire aid to California based on sending the water to LA. When the water doesn't go to LA.

Jon Favreau (39:30)

Water doesn't go to LA, doesn't go to LA, doesn'T know what he's talking about. The smell. He just, he sees that the fish, they're trying to save the fish. And the fish. How are you even saving the fish? Because don't fish need water?

Dan Pfeiffer (39:43)

I mean, like, it's obviously absurd, but when you say something like that, like, you see why people believe them. It's like, well, your fish do need water.

Jon Favreau (39:51)

Yeah, it does make sense that there'd be a valve in Northern California. It's just a button.

Dan Pfeiffer (39:58)

Elon just pushed one button and the water goes.

Jon Favreau (40:00)

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Dan Pfeiffer (41:28)

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Jon Favreau (41:33)

Could start saving money in no time. Get a quote today. Restrictions apply. Donald Trump has done a lot of public appearances since the inauguration he's speaking all we hear Donald Trump, multiple times a day. Is that strategy? Is that just what he wants? Cuz he wants to be, you know, the country's host for the next four years. Like what? Or is it, is there any risk to that for him? I guess there's no risk to anything because he's fucking. He's immune, he's president, he's. That's it, he wins, he's not running for.

Dan Pfeiffer (42:06)

He doesn't have to run again and he's immune for prosecution. So yeah, there's very little risk.

Jon Favreau (42:10)

Yeah. Tough to keep asking what the political damage for Trump is. I guess just so everyone knows, a weakened Trump, a trumpet back at lower 40%, 30%, whatever, that bodes poorly for the midterms for Republicans. And I think probably if it keeps up for four years, the same is true for 2028. But long way to go until we get there. So go ahead.

Dan Pfeiffer (42:32)

Is it a strategy? No. In the sense that Donald Trump has always wanted to be this way. He wants to be the center of attention at all times, right? In tabloids, putting his name on everything, hosting a reality show. But it does also happen to be. And this is why he's president for the second time in three elections is that sort of approach is also the way you should communicate in this media age is you have to be omnipresent. You have to be everywhere all at once. You have to do everything, never stop talking. You can't abide by this philosophy that even some that a lot of Democrats will abide by, which is the news of the day is the eos. So once I've done the eos, I should stop talking until tomorrow and then we'll have another news of the day. That's not how the world works anymore. It's just, it's nonstop, always talking, always be there, command as much attention as you possibly can. And that means that the people who don't pay a lot of attention have a greater chance of hearing you if you're always talking. But it also means, this is very key for Trump, that if you're always talking, if you say something wrong, if you make a mistake, it hurts a lot less. And so this is the approach, right? It is exhausting. It hurts my brain. It makes doing this podcast thoroughly like being on a hamster wheel of terribleness at all times. But that's how everyone should communicate in this day and age. They should over communicate, should be out there all the time. And that was not the approach that Joe Biden used for sure. Certainly not the approach that Kamala Harris used, although she did exponentially more than Joe Biden. But we have to sort of adopt not the messaging, not the behavior, but the conceptual understanding of messaging that Trump is employing here.

Jon Favreau (44:16)

Trump didn't said so much shit this week. It was easy to forget that he also is trying to get a cabinet confirmed. So far, the only one who's gotten through the Senate who's officially confirmed is Secretary of State Marco Rubio, who, by the way, has planned a trip to Panama. Dan. So I guess that canal thing is no joke. That's gonna be his first trip as Secretary of State. Marco's going to Panama. Think he's excited about that. There's gonna be a moment on that trip where Marco Rubio thinks of himself. Like, how the fuck did I get here? On one hand, I'm Secretary of State, on the other, it's for Donald Trump and he sent me on a mission to take back the Panama Canal.

Dan Pfeiffer (44:57)

I mean, we are, the world is on fire in multiple places right now. And the top priority, the first thing new Secretary State is going to do is to go to try to take back a canal for reasons that are entirely made up. Made up as we went through all.

Jon Favreau (45:12)

This podcast two days ago, because Donald Trump is stuck in the 80s and no one wants to tell him otherwise. So that's Marco. DOD nominee Pete Hegseth made it out of the Armed Services Committee on a party line vote on Monday. But on Tuesday, the committee got a sweep statement from his former sister in law detailing abusive and scary behavior toward the woman's sister, Hagseth's former wife, including that she once hid in a closet to get away from him, and then she had to develop an escape plan. Fox News reported that Mitch McConnell, Lisa Murkowski and Susan Collins may all be planning to vote against Hegseth, in which case JD Vance would have to cast the tie breaking vote, possibly in a Friday evening vote. No word on whether Pam Bondi or Cash Patel will have any trouble getting confirmed now that Trump has basically shut down the Justice Department's largest ever investigation into right wing domestic terrorism. That's the January 6th rioters. And also suggested that he wants the government to investigate his opponents. RFK Jr. Is apparently telling Republican senators that he's changed his mind on the polio vaccine and others and that he's not trying to limit access to inoculations. So there's, there's some good news for your day, some good news for your Friday. Go into the weekend with that. But apparently he'll continue to make money from his involvement in a lawsuit against Merck over the HPV vaccine, which he would now be overseeing. So that's lovely. He's gonna get a piece for him, too. You know, everyone's got their piece. Meanwhile, one nominee who may actually be in trouble. Tulsi Gabbard. One Republican senator just told Semaphore, quote, there are very serious concerns by enough members to put her nomination in jeopardy. What do you think, Dan? Is the Senate gonna reject any of these yahoos?

Dan Pfeiffer (46:47)

Maybe Tulsi Gabbard, Maybe. I wouldn't bet on it. But it does seem possible there was some reporting she wouldn't get out of committee. And they're most mad at her, as it turns out, for suggesting a pardon for Edward Snowden, which seems to be low on the list of reasons why she should not have this job.

Jon Favreau (47:03)

Wow. I think they're also. She's not as right wing on sort of surveillance issues, and I think they're a little. Some of them are a little worried about that.

Dan Pfeiffer (47:15)

Worried that she's gonna over or under surveil.

Jon Favreau (47:17)

Under surveil. Oh, you can't be under surveilling in the Trump administration.

Dan Pfeiffer (47:23)

Yeah, you gotta be surveilling. You gotta be over surveilling the right people.

Jon Favreau (47:26)

Yeah, exactly. Very against surveillance on their people. Very pro surveillance on everyone else. And then, of course, she met with Assad a couple times, and they're a little concerned about that. So we'll see about Tulsi. It is wild that Hegseth they can't get one more Republican to take, because if they have three, they can't get one more Republican to take down Hegseth.

Dan Pfeiffer (47:47)

But just the drama is whether he's gonna pass easily or JD Vance is going to have to remind America he exists and show up to break the tie.

Jon Favreau (47:57)

Yeah, that's what we're going with. So it looks like Trump's gonna get his Cabinet, and it seems like John Thune is gonna keep the Senate in session, basically until all of the nominees are confirmed. So that's what we're looking at there. Unsurprisingly, Trump's opponents have not been getting a ton of airtime this week. One moment that did break through, though, was this one from the prayer service at the National Cathedral on Tuesday.

Faz Shakir (48:20)

In the name of our God, I ask you to have mercy upon the.

Dan Pfeiffer (48:26)

People in our country who are scared.

Faz Shakir (48:30)

Now, there are gay, lesbian, and transgender children in Democratic, Republican, and independent families, some who fear for their lives. And the people, the people who pick our crops and clean our office buildings, who labor in poultry farms and meat packing plants, who wash the dishes after.

Jon Favreau (48:57)

We eat in restaurants and. And work the night shifts in hospitals. They may not be citizens or have.

Faz Shakir (49:04)

The proper documentation, but the vast majority.

Jon Favreau (49:08)

Of immigrants are not criminals.

Faz Shakir (49:12)

They pay taxes and are good neighbors.

Jon Favreau (49:15)

That, of course, was Bishop Marion Buddy. She is the head bishop in Washington, D.C. of the Episcopal Church. Trump and the rest of the Republicans spent the rest of the week attacking her for what she said, not just disagreeing, saying that it was despicable. One Republican congressman, I don't know if it was a joke or not, said that she should be on the deportation list. Trump has demanded an apology from her. They've called her a liar. Mike Johnson, very religious man, he posted about her that she was. It was despicable. White House called her despicable. What did you make of that moment at the prayer service?

Dan Pfeiffer (49:55)

It was incredibly powerful. Not just what she said, but the fact that she said it to Trump's face, particularly in an environment where so many of Trump's longtime opponents are bending over backwards to kiss his ass in the most debasing way possible. And so to have someone who actually is not willing just to say it, but to say it to his face in a moment when people are listening was powerful and courageous.

Jon Favreau (50:21)

I also think it is a model for other leaders to talk about Trump because she. Look, they're all saying she sowed division. And I've just looked at what Mike Johnson actually said. Her hateful, radical ideology, that's what she uses, an opportunity to push that. And then anyone who listens to the clip, like, go listen to the clip. Go listen to the whole thing. She could not have been more respectful of Donald Trump and Republicans. She could not have been more willing to extend a hand and to try to just. She's just trying to lodge her complaint in the most respectful way possible. And I do think there is additional power in criticizing Trump and criticizing what he's doing in a way where she didn't really care in that moment if Donald Trump was gonna get mad at her. But what she was thinking about is how is this message, how is what I'm saying and this criticism gonna land even with people who may not agree with me? And that's not to say that she was being, like, super political and thinking of message strategy like we do, but she's. She's clergy, and she thinks about it from a human perspective, and she spoke in a way that normal humans would speak to each other. When you're trying to convince someone who may not agree with you in a respectful way, in a way that shows grace. And I think it's something. And even in her interviews afterwards, she had so, you know, all these reporters, all these partners kept setting her up to, like, take another shot at Donald Trump or really attack. And she wouldn't do it, you know, because she's like, this is. She said, I think on a. Rachel Maddow interviewed her, and she said, look, I just, I wanted to say it this way because I think this is a moment to try to, like, bring the country together. And I don't think this is a moment to further inflame divisions. But these voices weren't being heard, and I needed to say something, and I just, I thought that was great.

Dan Pfeiffer (52:24)

It was very. You hit on that, I think is like, the instructive part of this for Democrats is the core of her remarks, is that she believes that despite this election, despite whom we just elected, that this is a country of people who care about each other, who want to come together and want to do the right thing, particularly for America's most vulnerable.

Jon Favreau (52:48)

People, that we take care of each other.

Dan Pfeiffer (52:51)

We take care of each other.

Jon Favreau (52:52)

We've all been strangers here at one.

Dan Pfeiffer (52:54)

Point, and we don't want to try to make ourselves be a lesser version of Trump, sort of a paler shade of orange, if you will. What we want to do is we want to speak to what. To the opposite of Trump. And that's what she did. Right. And I think. And I do. It didn't come to fruition in this election, but I have continued to believe, ever since Trump first came down that escalator and won that election, that the antidote to that in the long term in politics is to get back to speaking to hope and optimism and unity and the idea that we care about each other.

Jon Favreau (53:26)

Yeah, decency. What else have you seen? What are your overall thoughts on how Democrats have responded to this week?

Dan Pfeiffer (53:36)

Man, that's a loaded question.

Jon Favreau (53:40)

I've been here trying to answer it all week here. I'm getting asked it all the time on all these.

Dan Pfeiffer (53:45)

That is your personal choice, my friend.

Jon Favreau (53:49)

You're wise to keep your head underwater there.

Dan Pfeiffer (53:52)

Look, I think, to be fair to Democrats, it is impossible to ask them in a moment when we're in which we are thoroughly leaderless, to have the fully formed response to Trump in the first 72 hours of his presidency. What I worry about in some of the responses to date is that we are unwilling to truly reckon with this election. Right. We can tell ourselves a story that the election was closer than sort of the narrative. And that is true in one sense, but it's also true, and more importantly, that we have bled massively with the most core parts of our coalition, right? Latino voters, black voters, young people, and that that is an ongoing trend. Right. If you look at the Latino numbers, it's massive over the last. Over the last four years. And it just feels like we're do the same. People are doing the same things they were doing six months ago, as opposed to really, really rethinking how we communicate, how we speak, right? Not our message. Like, how do we actually. What are the words that come out of our mouth? How do we sound different? What are we going to do that's different than before? And I see that, I see that a little bit in the way the DNC race is playing out, is that people really, we want the easy way out. What we want to do is kind of get lucky, right? And that we're going to survive this period. And then Trump's going to be unpopular. It's kind of an election. Maybe we can win it. Kind of like we won 2020, but that doesn't solve our bigger problem. And I don't even want to depress people. But take a look at what the 2032 electoral map's going to look like. And once you do that, you're going to realize that we have massive work to do to reconfigure our coalition, and we have to be willing to ask really hard questions. And I'm not convinced that enough people in the party are willing to ask those questions right now.

Jon Favreau (55:43)

And when you say the 2032 electoral map, you mean that some of the blue states could lose electoral votes because of the new census by then? Because blue states are losing people to red states. I'm still, you know, like you, I'm still giving people time to sort of get their sea legs in the new. And look, we had to wait to see how extreme he would be in the first week, whether he'd actually follow through. I mean, I, you know, on this very podcast, on our Tuesday show, I think I was saying, oh, we've tried resistance politics. We should try normal politics. And here's the price of a, like, I did the whole thing, and then, you know, he goes and pardons these violent offenders and all the other shit. And you're like, you just, you know, you've got to adapt to and react to him in some ways, right? Like, that is just part of dealing with Donald Trump. He does something and we often have to react, we try not to overreact. But like that's, he's the president, he commands a lot of power right now. Right. And so I, you know, a lot of Democrats are just fine in their sea legs, I get that. But I have not seen anything this week. Right. Like I don't, you know, I saw Chris Murphy on the floor talking about the pardons and I think he was very passionate. He's someone who, who talks like a human. AOC is out there, she's talking like a human. I just don't see a lot else from Democrats right now. People who are just, you know, putting all the polling down for a second, put the stage directions down. Just tell us how you feel. It's the first week, right. You don't have to think about what polls. Well, right now it's the first week. Tell us how you feel about this.

Dan Pfeiffer (57:19)

I think there's obviously a messaging problem, but even take, take the Chris Murphy example, right? Great speech. He lived on the floor of the Senate.

Jon Favreau (57:27)

Yeah, right, yeah, like, right.

Dan Pfeiffer (57:30)

You know, you saw that?

Jon Favreau (57:32)

Yeah. Because I, I've now made a, a Twitter list of Democratic politicians just so I could see what they're all talking about. And that was the only one that caught my eye in that long list.

Dan Pfeiffer (57:42)

And part of it is, is hard, other than the example of aoc, who did a lot of her stuff on Instagram live, which is the right place to do a lot of this is there's just not people who have the capacity to be heard.

Jon Favreau (57:54)

Yeah, right.

Dan Pfeiffer (57:55)

That is a challenge.

Jon Favreau (57:57)

But part of it is you. Well, this is a, you know, this is a bigger topic about attention and how to command attention in this age. But sometimes one way to get heard and have the capacity to get heard is to say something worth hearing, you know, and I don't think that anyone said anything worth hearing yet or not. A lot of people, the bishop sure did. Now look, she was in a, she's a bishop, she's not political. Donald Trump was sitting right there. So obviously that's why the whole thing went viral. But like, I don't know, I think we gotta start throwing some stuff against the wall, see what sticks in terms of getting the message out. Right. Not in terms of message itself, but like people, it's what you said about Trump, you gotta over communicate. Right. There's the press release, the Senate floor speech, the five minute cable hit. Not sufficient. Not sufficient right now. One last thing on Democratic strategy here on Wednesday night. Someone we know, Tom Vitor was a guest of my pal Jesse Waters on Fox News. Let's listen to how he did.

Dan Pfeiffer (58:57)

How many genders are there, Tommy? How many genders are there, Tommy? The honest answer, Jesse.

Jon Favreau (59:02)

I don't care.

Dan Pfeiffer (59:03)

I'm a Libertarian.

Jon Favreau (59:04)

I don't care.

Dan Pfeiffer (59:05)

Be what you want to be. You can be what you want to be, Jesse. Live your truth. Well, I'm not a Democrat.

Jon Favreau (59:10)

And that we know.

Dan Pfeiffer (59:11)

I have.

Jon Favreau (59:11)

I haven't seen this enemies list. Can you show me this list?

Dan Pfeiffer (59:13)

Read Kash Patel's book, the new FBI director. You should check it out.

Jon Favreau (59:16)

It's not a long book. I haven't seen the list.

Dan Pfeiffer (59:19)

I know there was FBI agents on the ground on January 6th and then they destroyed evidence in the committee. And then everybody gets preemptive pardons.

Jon Favreau (59:28)

What's that all about? Just doing kind of the greatest hits of conspiracy.

Dan Pfeiffer (59:30)

Are we gonna do lab leaks now?

Jon Favreau (59:32)

Where do we wanna go next? How'd our boy do?

Dan Pfeiffer (59:36)

He did great. He did great. He hung in there.

Jon Favreau (59:38)

Our Libertarian co host.

Dan Pfeiffer (59:42)

I have a. I really appreciate from Tommy because I have a. One of my theories I'm noodling on for the future of our party is we have to become more libertarian.

Jon Favreau (59:51)

Okay. Yeah.

Dan Pfeiffer (59:53)

Free speech, legalize marijuana.

Jon Favreau (59:56)

I thought Tommy did great.

Dan Pfeiffer (59:58)

He was very quick on the draw. He was very quick on the draw.

Jon Favreau (60:00)

It's also, it's also so. I mean I did this, I did Jesse Waters during the convention when we were the height of brat summer. We were riding high.

Dan Pfeiffer (60:09)

He was Jesse Water seemed a little scared about his future. We saw you. Now he is.

Jon Favreau (60:15)

Yeah. He was like, well, nowhere. Well, Tommy was like, why don't you just, you just want to let this go? Donald Trump won. He's like, I'm not letting it go. Tommy Vitor, tell me that, that question about how many genders, that was the first question to Tommy.

Dan Pfeiffer (60:27)

Yes.

Jon Favreau (60:28)

No, it wasn't like hey, hello, could you comment on the pardons or anything? Tommy, tell us about the genders. Still worth. And you know, I still think it's worth going on. It was worth going on to hear Tommy bring up the conspiracies. Give Jesse some shit. Like I think, I think it's good.

Dan Pfeiffer (60:45)

This is. I mean I have been a long time opponent of Democrats other than the most talented of Democrats, which I would include Tommy and going on Fox News. But now like this is the thing we have to do. We have to be everywhere and you have to be in uncomfortable spaces so you'll get more attention. Like if Tommy had just gone on pick your MSNBC show It wouldn't have gotten any currency outside of the people who happened to be watching at that moment. And because he didn't expect it.

Jon Favreau (61:14)

For example, we're not talking about Lovett's star turn on Chris Hayes. Last night. He did Chris Hayes at the same time.

Dan Pfeiffer (61:20)

He did. I'm learning this right now.

Jon Favreau (61:22)

And I did the night before with Tim Miller. Yeah, get.

Dan Pfeiffer (61:25)

You and Tim Miller were on Chris Hayes at the exact same time?

Jon Favreau (61:28)

Yeah, it was basically just. Yeah, we were just hanging out. Just hanging out. Cool. I mean, if we had a good time yelling about everything, if I didn't.

Dan Pfeiffer (61:34)

Know that, then I got to tell you, can't wait till your wife finds out you did that.

Jon Favreau (61:39)

She definitely doesn't know. She doesn't even know. She texted me. She was like, are you coming home? And I was like, no, no, I'm doing this pod and I got the view. No, I said, I think you're right. Like, you gotta. It gets more attention that way. And I think Tommy did great. So let's keep it up. All right, that's all we got for news. When we come back, you'll all hear Dan's interview with DNC chair candidate Faz Shakir. But one quick thing before we get to Faz Dan, I hear we have a special offer for our listeners for message box, your substack newsletter, is that right?

Dan Pfeiffer (62:13)

Well, John, great toss.

Jon Favreau (62:17)

Speaking of reading the stage directions, right here, it says Dan crosstalk. So that's what we're doing now. We're doing the crosstalk Prepare.

Dan Pfeiffer (62:24)

Sometimes it says banter TK Well, John, I do have a special offer, but before I get to that, I just want to say I've been writing this newsletter for 4 and a half years now, which is very alarming. But almost all of that's been during the Biden administration. So I spent a bunch of time over the holidays trying to think about what I want to do differently now that Donald Trump is back in our lives and how I want to think about with four years of fighting Trump ahead of us. And so kind of come up with three things that I'm really going to try to focus on. The first is continue to analyze what happened this election, exploring how we can rebuild our coalition. It's not pleasant to look back at that election, but we have to learn the lessons from it. The second is strategizing about how we can continue to combat the right wing media machine. We got our asses absolutely kicked in the last election. We're at a huge media disadvantage. So how do we fix that as Democrats, how do we communicate better? What platforms do we use? What platforms do we need to build? And the last thing is, I want to identify for my readers specific ways we can all fight back against what Trump and his minions are trying to do. Right? And that includes where to volunteer, where to donate, which campaign matters most, and how to talk to the persuadable voters in your life about what's happening in politics, what Trump's doing, how to do that, the most effective way possible. So this is of interest to you. I have a special offer, and it cringes me to say this in so.

Jon Favreau (63:43)

Many ways, but fun watching your face do this right.

Dan Pfeiffer (63:47)

I know the special offer is if you go to the most embarrassing website possible, crooked.comyeswedan and sign up for MessageBox, you will get your first month free. So that is crooked.com yeswedan end of pitch. I have to go take a shower now, everyone.

Jon Favreau (64:04)

When there is a Dan Pfeiffer message box, it is the first thing I read when I wake up at the ungodly hour that I wake up because I'm like, I'm not going to start my day with anything else, but I got to read the message box first. I do it every single time it comes out. It is a fantastic. And I talk to Dan all the time. So you would think that there's not a ton I could learn from it, but I always do. So everyone should go subscribe.

Dan Pfeiffer (64:27)

I want you to know I started sending it earlier to try to abide by your sleep schedule. Because if I get beat by Playbook, I'm fucked for the day, right?

Jon Favreau (64:34)

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Restrictions apply. USAA. Joining me now is Faz Shakira, the founder of the progressive media site More Perfect Union, former national political director for the aclu, longtime advisor to Senator Bernie Sanders, and now candidate for DNC chair. Fez welcome to Pod Save America, Dan.

Faz Shakir (66:34)

Thanks for having me.

Dan Pfeiffer (66:35)

Okay, you've been in politics a long time. You've worked on campaigns, you've worked on the Hill. You've been in groups. You know a lot about how the DNC works. Why the hell do you want this job?

Faz Shakir (66:45)

We've gotten a creeping sense that maybe you feel the same way, Dan, that there's a powerlessness about the dnc. Oh, it's useless. Especially in an age in which you've seen a lot of the power drift over to super PACs and outside actors who are a little more nimble and quick. And I understand that. But let me get philosophical with you for a moment here. We are dealing in a society where you've got great wealth and income inequality, where power is residing with people who have a lot of money. And when you think about like if you just pull back and say, okay, well, what do you do in a situation where, hey, lot of power has moved to the hands of a few. What you need are people powered organizations led with integrity that say, hey, don't forget about us here. And those things have to exist as institutions. So to all the people, and I understand them, there's a lot of working class people out there who say institutions are corrupt, they're broken. They don't Work for me. I'm making the argument. Yeah, but institutions are your way out. You need to have solidarity within a structure to have some power. This is what unions are about, right? This is why you and I have built up our own media institutions, is that people need voice. And the DNC is one of two major political parties in America. You got the Republican Party, which we know what direction is going on, and the Democratic Party. I'm like, don't give up on a structure in an institution that has to work for people.

Dan Pfeiffer (68:06)

We have had your two primary opponents for this position on the show. We've talked to Ken Martin and Ben Wickler. What is something you disagree with them on? Like, you got into this race after they've been running for a long time, so there must have been something you saw that was not being addressed or something you would do differently. So I'm curious what the contrast is.

Jon Favreau (68:22)

Yeah.

Faz Shakir (68:23)

The shortcoming in my mind is that I am very pleased and happy. No surprise to you that we're not talking about being a working class party. I'm like, great. Been hot in this one for a while. But I'm glad coming out of this. We're all talking about it. And so then I'm sitting around saying, hey, okay, get me. What is the ambitious new thing that we are going to do out of the DNC that is going to turn the heads of working class people to say, oh, that's different. That's interesting. I didn't realize you guys are going to act that way. And I quite frankly, was feeling let down by the lack of ambition on that score. And, you know, I'm jumping in to challenge the notions of our constraints of thinking around what the DNC can do. If you're an apparatus with $100 million plus raise of a year and you've got, you know, 50 plus state parties, can you think outside the box of how you let people into this? The big thing that I'm trying to force everyone to think about is a grassroots DNC that says membership to our organization is not merely a contribution, it is us being in community with you. We have to be out there with striking workers, organizing workers, people fighting, you know, utility rate hikes or evictions and foreclosures. You have to be closer to grassroots people who are fighting economic justice issues and using your media apparatus to highlight those fights in which I think working class people turn to you and say, whoa, that. That I've never seen from the dnc. That's interesting. That's different. That's what I'm compelling and forcing us to think about.

Dan Pfeiffer (69:49)

So what, what is that? Is community, that big idea that you're talking. You talk a little more about that.

Faz Shakir (69:53)

So I blend it all together. That the media infrastructure being on the front lines, let's take, I mean you go case by case here, but let's say Amazon workers are going to organize to fight for a union in a North Carolina warehouse, which by the way, is going on. And does the DNC play a role in this right now? Historically, you and I know we're a partisan organization. We focus on elections. What I'm arguing that is that if you are a working class party, you associate with the working class struggles in all different fronts and utilize some degree of your email list to help build solidarity with them, use your media channels to advertise and explain what the hell it is that they're fighting for at this Amazon warehouse, why they matter to us. And ultimately when we stick our necks out for them in North Carolina and there's an election, I believe you're more likely to get some of those people to stand with the Democratic Party up and down the ballot when the time comes. So I'm seeing it more holistically that when we change the way we are projected to working class people, when we get closer to their fights rather than just our fights, I think we got a better chance to recruit them back in, particularly in this moment where people feel like Donald Trump is leading us into a world where wealth and power.

Dan Pfeiffer (71:04)

Dictate all you obviously you work for Bernie Sanders. You've talked a lot about the Democratic Party becoming more populist. This is a fairly loaded question, or one that could take this entire interview and several podcasts to talk about. So I'll try to get your short version of the answer. Is Joe Biden was, on economics, the most progressive president in a very long time. He did a lot of the things that Bernie Sanders and other populists and progressives wanted him to do. Yet we bled more with working class voters than in any election since the 80s. What is your short diagnosis for why that happened?

Faz Shakir (71:40)

I'll try to keep it short. My diagnosis is that when Joe Biden was rightly doing a lot of great populist policy, it was not matched by the political apparatus leaning into those same fights. So you take a moment where Joe Biden makes history by going to a picket line on behalf of the UAW during the midst of their strike. You do not see a UAW kind of solidarity, effort and action from the DNC saying this Is our fight. We together in this. This was Joe Biden doing his thing, not the Democratic Party standing with you. You take any of those big moments. If you have a Biden administration going after big pharma, launching a major case, going after pharmacy benefit managers, going after Amazon, a Kroger Albertsons merger, whatever the case might, might be some of these big bank junk fees that Rohit Chopra and others were fighting. You correct me if I'm wrong, Dan, it does not feel to me that the policy apparatus that was taking on these major challenges was accompanied by a political apparatus telling you, here's what we're doing and here's the friction that we are engaged in right now and why we're asking you to be part of this Democratic Party. And when the political apparatus doesn't do its part, we can't blame voters for just being like, I had no idea. And I think to this day, if I went out and talked about, hey, did you know we were fighting the Kroger Albertsons merger because we wanted to make sure grocery prices were low and you had competition. What percentage, Dan? What are we talking about? 5, 5%, 10%?

Dan Pfeiffer (73:02)

1%? If you're lucky. Yeah.

Faz Shakir (73:04)

What a sad situation that these were the biggest things that Biden was bringing about. And as you know, the business world, if I went into any, you know, K Street lobbying operation or any chamber meeting and I mentioned any of these things that you and I are just talking about, would they know? 90, 98% awareness. Right. They were very upset. Why is Mark Zuckerberg where he is? He was upset that, you know, they're taking on his Facebook monopoly. So he, he's upset and he moves away. Elon Musk. Oh, I didn't get invited to a White House meeting and Joe Biden was calling me a union buster. Yeah. These rich, rich and wealthy people were very upset at this direction. And yet the political apparatus is not leaning in to tell you this is the direction that we are choosing to fight for working class people.

Dan Pfeiffer (73:50)

One of your passions in politics has been the asymmetry in media, which is why you started More Perfect Union, a progressive, populist, pro union media apparatus. What would you do at the DNC to address the media asymmetry here? Because that was gets to the core. There was a political missing political organizing piece to what we were talking about, but a huge part of it is media. Right. We got outgunned in media. We were unable to communicate in the right way. Some of that's specific to Biden. But how would you change the DNC to address our media problems.

Faz Shakir (74:24)

Part of your job, I think in this moment is to think of yourself as editor in chief of a social media channel. Thankfully, we at More Perfect Union have about, I'd say 1.3 million YouTube subscribers. Now, Dan, I want you to guess how many does the Democrats YouTube channel, which started in 2006, how many followers does it have of More Perfect Union? What does POD say that? Probably close to a million or maybe like 800,000.

Dan Pfeiffer (74:52)

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Faz Shakir (74:53)

So, you know, respectable numbers here. What does the DNC have?

Dan Pfeiffer (74:58)

150.

Faz Shakir (74:58)

I'm guessing 76,000.

Dan Pfeiffer (75:01)

76,000.

Faz Shakir (75:03)

So, you know, we are obviously undershooting on just utilizing the channels to do compelling and interesting content. Well, you and I know you don't just sprinkle fairy dust on a YouTube channel and suddenly it grows. No, you have to give some compelling content. I don't know. Do you ever work in the building? You know, I work back. It was back in the day I was a DNC opposition researcher. What I do know is we're sitting on content. If you want to know what Donald Trump ever said, you know, from his first term, his campaigns video, it's there. You know, they have been recording it. It's wild that, you know, that you can't come up with compelling and interesting pieces to just tell people about. Here's what Donald Trump promised, here's what he said. You could just, that alone could do a hell of a lot of service of content. But then as I was mentioning, when you're a grassroots operation, you're getting out in the country and you're trying to tell people we're a working class organization, we care and affiliate with your economic justice fights. Why not use the channels, the videographers and, you know, our 50 state plus state parties to say, hey, we're going to get on the ground and tell this interesting and compelling economic justice story just as a service to all of us to know what's going on in the housing market or how you're getting screwed on your utility rate hike, whatever the case might be. I find that those types of pieces of content right now would do a hell of a lot to attract new audiences and that aren't just purely partisan, you know, in nature.

Dan Pfeiffer (76:33)

You know, everyone who has ever run for this job since about 2006 has talked about a 50 state strategy. We're going to organize everywhere. We're going to red states, blue states, et cetera. The challenge of that always is money. Right? Which is you is, is there's not enough Money to do everywhere. And then you ultimately feel a need to prioritize in the seven swing states or, or the states where they have the Senate races or wherever that these days are often the same states. How do you plan to address that and what's your approach to organizing all over the country?

Faz Shakir (77:05)

So when you mentioned I was at the ACLU, I faced the same thing. We had 50 state affiliates all over the board. We were fortunate that we had a great grassroots fundraising operation. I think we ended up raising 200 million plus. I think the DNC can do that this year too. So I would challenge the notions that, well, we just don't have enough money. I think it's a matter of conviction around that money. You will. There will. It does mean if you take away from somewhere, you have to add to somewhere. But if you have a conviction of saying, you know, a baseline of funding right now, you may know this, Dan, but you know, most state parties, if you're out in Idaho wherever, you probably get $12,500 a month. That's a poverty budget, right? Think about trying to run a state party in Idaho at $12,500 a month. And so one is just, you have to increase the baseline of that. And if you had a robust grassroots operation, you're not only increasing their baseline, you're also saying that the data, the donor, the lists that we're getting out of, maybe even the last election cycle, we raised a billion dollars from, you know, small dollar funds. That that list goes back over to you as well. You've now got it, but you got to know what to do with it. This is the challenge I face at the aclu. So I give you the list. Do you have the digital expertise? Do you know how to do online to offline events with volunteers?

Jon Favreau (78:17)

Probably.

Faz Shakir (78:17)

It might be challenging for a lot of other states. That's where DNC comes in to say, hey, I gotta give you some baselines. Not only am I increasing the amount to the state, I also gotta give you technical expertise from national of how to use it, the know how. And then I would just say our job. And I'll say this all delicacy and respect to the DNC universe, which I've been in, and you know a little bit about lots of councils and lots of caucuses. Man, one council and one caucus breeds another council in the caucus. What we really need is like program and mission. And so by example, what I did at ACLU is say, hey, we got one program mission for us was expand voting rights in this country. Here's a North Star. Now states pitch me on what you could do to expand voting rights. You got independent redistricting commissions. You got expansion of early vote. You're trying to get formerly incarcerated individuals to vote. Great. Get me a pitch. Explain what's going on in your state and what you need to help fund it. See, so if you set like a goal and ambition, a purpose at the top and now you've got states saying I think here, even in Idaho, I think we can do something about that. We need that. So goals and ambitions are like grassroots organizing is one in events and communities that I was mentioning before candidate recruitment across the board. Tell me what you're doing to expand and do interesting candidate recruitment. It will fund it and you know, so that I think I just feel a lack of ambition around where's program admission here?

Dan Pfeiffer (79:41)

Can you raise that money while still being less annoying in your text and emails than the Democratic Party has been in a long time?

Faz Shakir (79:48)

You know, so this, you know, one of the learnings of Bernie's email list which still to this day is very vibrant and raises a fair amount and probably outperforms a number of candidates still, I'm sure office is that and I don't know if you're on the email. So he writes very substantive long emails and asks people often not even for direct contribution. It's a petition action and a secondary ask for money. And, and it, and I, I think I, I don't want to treat people like they're dumb. I, I do think people, particularly in this age where the economy is complex, people know it's rigged, they are seeking depth. Get me an understanding. Own your leader, your job, help unpack stuff first for me. And I, I believe the emails, lists and texts don't have to be superficial and treat people like they're dumb. I think you can raise the bar and you say, hey, this is something interesting and compelling that I want you to know about and I'm asking you to fund it. I don't, I think we'd seen an increase in funding, not a drop off.

Dan Pfeiffer (80:43)

Would the DNC under your leadership accept contributions from corporate PACs and lobbyists?

Faz Shakir (80:48)

So what I'm. Yes. Well, what I'm most upset about there is that corporate power influence over the party. So I wouldn't accept money from PACs, lobbyists who are trying to say, hey, we want a seat at the table, we're going to influence this. And right now I think that that's what you got going Dan is you've got these folks who believe not that when I give you a contribution, I expect that my finance committee will now not be run by, you know, finance people that are the delegates or people who we've, we brought into the dnc, but they're outsiders, the people outside the organization, they come in, they, they make determinations. So I think if you're a working class party, in my view, you do things that stand for working class people and I would, you know, I'll do a twist on you on this one. If, if Amazon wanted to give me, I mean, I was wrestling with this in real time. If Amazon wanted to give me $50,000 for the DNC, promise you, you're marked to support Amazon workers in this country. So I'll take it. And guess what? Those, those Amazon workers who are organizing in North Carolina, they're going to get every penny of it. We're going to show, you know, if you're a working class party, this is what you are supporting. And in that way, yes, I will show my true colors. Because corporate influence will not have driven the decision making. And I think that my sense is there's a lack of transparency and people feel like corporate influence is having a large role of it because, because we don't even know where the hell the money's going. Where does all the large numbers amounts beyond the FEC filings? There's consultants who get money, but what, I don't see anything. Where is my value as a member of the Democratic Party? What are you doing in community with me? We can raise the bar on that one. We can do compelling and interesting stuff in communities all over the country.

Dan Pfeiffer (82:31)

Well, Faz, thanks so much for joining us. Good luck in your race. It's always great to talk to you.

Faz Shakir (82:35)

Thank you, Dan. Appreciate it.

Jon Favreau (82:42)

That's our show for today. I'm gonna be back in your feed on Sunday for our very first Sunday show of 2025 featuring an excellent in depth conversation with none other than Rachel Maddow about Trump's first week back in office, how we should cover his second term and how to stay sane. It was a lot of fun as always. I hope you'll check it out. Thanks to Faz Shakir for coming on the show and thanks to Jared O'Connell, Dio Gomez, Jake Getz, Jesse Carson, Dave Seidel and everyone here at SiriusXM in New York City for hosting us this week. We loved being here. We had wonderful hosts at Sirius. So thank you everyone who helped us out and talk to you all on Sunday. If you want to listen to Pod Save America ad free or get access to our subscriber discord and exclusive podcasts. Consider joining our Friends of the pod community@cricket.com friends or subscribe on Apple Podcasts directly from the Podcast Save America feed. Also, be sure to follow Pod Save America on TikTok, Instagram, Twitter, and YouTube for full episodes, bonus content, and more. And before you hit that next button, you can help boost this episode by leaving us a review and by sharing it with friends and family. Pod Save America is a crooked media production. Our producers are David Toledo and Saul Rubin. Our Associate producer is Farah Safari. Reed Churlin is our Executive Editor and Adrienne Hill is our Executive Producer. Producer. The show is mixed and edited by Andrew Chadwick. Jordan Kanter is our Sound engineer with audio support from Kyle Seglin and Charlotte Landis. Madeline Herringer is our head of news and programming. Matt De Groat is our Head of production. Naomi Sengel is our Executive assistant. Thanks to our digital team, Elijah Cohn, Haley Jones, Phoebe Bradford, Joseph Dutra, Ben Hefcoat, Mia Kelman, Molly Lobel, Kiril Pelaviev, and David Toles. Our production staff is proudly unionized with the Writers Guild of America East Auto insurance can all seem the same until it comes time to use it, so don't get stuck paying more for less coverage.

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