Trump's Justices Turn On Him

Summary

Pod Save America: "Trump's Justices Turn On Him"

Release Date: April 22, 2025
Host/Author: Crooked Media
Episode Title: Trump's Justices Turn On Him

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1. Supreme Court Halts Alien Enemy Act Deportations

[02:24] Jon Favreau:
The episode opens with the hosts discussing a significant Supreme Court decision that blocks the Trump administration's use of the Alien Enemy Act to deport Venezuelans without due process. This ruling represents a critical confrontation between the Court and the administration over immigration policies.

[02:25] Jon Favreau:
"We're not just dealing with deportations; we're dealing with the fundamental rights of individuals being stripped away without a fair trial."

2. Senator Van Hollen's El Salvador Mission and White House Backlash

[04:00] Jon Lovett:
The conversation shifts to Maryland Senator Chris Van Hollen's recent trip to El Salvador to meet with Kilmer Abrego Garcia. The Trump White House criticized Van Hollen, alleging connections to MS-13, despite Van Hollen emphasizing his support for Garcia's rights.

[05:14] Tommy Vietor:
"Van Hollen stepped up to defend human rights, exposing the administration's overreach and misuse of power."

3. Supreme Court's Emergency Ruling and Justice Alito's Dissent

[09:51] Jon Lovett:
Hosts dissect the Supreme Court's swift 7-2 decision to temporarily block deportations under the Alien Enemy Act. Justice Alito, along with Justices Thomas and Alito, dissented, arguing the decision bypassed standard judicial procedures.

[14:49] Jon Favreau:
"This ruling shows that the Court isn't willing to blindly trust the administration's claims. They're standing up for due process."

Professor Leah Lippman from Strict Scrutiny joins the discussion to provide legal insights.

[15:41] Leah Lippman:
"The Supreme Court recognized the urgent need to intervene, preventing the administration from exploiting legal loopholes to unjustly deport individuals."

4. Reactions from MAGA and Conservative Leaders

[30:21] Tommy Vietor:
Reactions from MAGA figures like Congressman Mike Collins and Paul Ingrassia vehemently criticize the Supreme Court's decision, labeling it as ideological corruption.

[31:24] Jon Lovett:
"Paul Ingrassia's comments reflect a dangerous mindset where loyalism to the administration trumps constitutional principles."

[31:37] Jon Favreau:
Conservative commentators and radio hosts call for defiance against the Court, even suggesting extreme measures like dissolving it if deportations continue.

5. Pete Hegseth's Signal Chat Scandal and Pentagon Chaos

[52:31] Jon Lovett:
Defense Secretary Pete Hegseth is embroiled in a scandal involving the sharing of classified war plans via Signal chats. This has led to a "meltdown" within the Pentagon and calls for his resignation from both Democratic and Republican lawmakers.

[53:12] Jon Lovett:
"Hegseth's blatant disregard for protocol and security has undermined the integrity of the Department of Defense."

[54:16] Tommy Vietor:
"This isn't just a leak; it's a betrayal of national security that jeopardizes military operations and intelligence integrity."

6. Trump's Accidental War on Harvard

[63:54] Jon Favreau:
The hosts discuss an incident where the Trump administration accidentally sent aggressive demands to Harvard's Anti-Semitism Task Force, leading to threats of freezing funds and withdrawing support unless Harvard complied with unprecedented oversight requests.

[65:32] Jon Lovett:
"Sending such extreme demands without proper authorization showcases the administration's chaotic and punitive approach to dissenting institutions."

7. The Passing of Pope Francis and Interaction with JD Vance

[72:51] Jon Favreau:
The episode covers the recent passing of Pope Francis and his final interactions, including a critical meeting with JD Vance. Pope Francis's last Easter address subtly criticized political figures for their lack of empathy and called for peace in conflict zones.

[73:09] Tommy Vietor:
"Pope Francis embodied compassion and justice, attributes sorely missing in today's polarized political climate."

8. Concluding Insights and Implications

[77:25] Jon Lovett:
The hosts reflect on the broader implications of the Supreme Court's decision and the administration's actions, emphasizing the erosion of democratic principles and the rule of law.

[78:22] Jon Favreau:
"This isn't just about deportations or legislative overreach; it's about the fundamental values that hold our democracy together. The resistance we’re witnessing is crucial for upholding these values."

[80:00] Jon Lovett:
"As we navigate these tumultuous times, it's imperative to support institutions and leaders that prioritize justice and human rights over political gain."

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Notable Quotes:

• Jon Favreau [02:25]:
  "We're not just dealing with deportations; we're dealing with the fundamental rights of individuals being stripped away without a fair trial."

• Tommy Vietor [05:14]:
  "Van Hollen stepped up to defend human rights, exposing the administration's overreach and misuse of power."

• Leah Lippman [15:41]:
  "The Supreme Court recognized the urgent need to intervene, preventing the administration from exploiting legal loopholes to unjustly deport individuals."

• Jon Lovett [31:24]:
  "Paul Ingrassia's comments reflect a dangerous mindset where loyalism to the administration trumps constitutional principles."

• Tommy Vietor [54:16]:
  "This isn't just a leak; it's a betrayal of national security that jeopardizes military operations and intelligence integrity."

---

Key Takeaways:

• The Supreme Court's intervention marks a pivotal defense of due process against executive overreach in immigration enforcement.
• Conservative backlash highlights the deepening polarization and challenge to institutional checks and balances.
• The Pentagon's internal chaos under Pete Hegseth underscores vulnerabilities within military leadership and the dangers of intertwining media influence with defense operations.
• Accidental aggressive actions against prestigious institutions like Harvard reveal the administration's erratic and punitive governance style.
• The legacy of Pope Francis serves as a poignant contrast to current political climates, advocating for compassion amidst adversity.

This episode of Pod Save America provides a comprehensive analysis of the escalating tensions between the judiciary and the executive branch, the repercussions within the military, and the broader implications for democracy and human rights in the United States.

Transcript

[Jon Favreau]

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[Nicolo Magnoni]

My name is Nicolo Magnoni and for years I have been obsessed with one of Europe's greatest mysteries. Who killed God's banker?

[Jon Lovett]

The wire said Calvi found dead suicide question mark.

[Nicolo Magnoni]

What truly happened to the banker who had the Vatican, the Mafia and a secret far right branch of the Freemasons all pounding on his door? From Crooked Media and Campside Media, this is Shadow Kingdom Season 1, God's Banker. Find it work wherever you get your podcasts or get early access to the full season by joining Crooked's Friends of the Pod at crooked.com friends.

[Jon Favreau]

Welcome to Pod Save America. I'm Jon Favreau.

[Jon Lovett]

I'm Jon Levitt and Tommy Vitor.

[Jon Favreau]

On today's show, we're going to cover the Supreme Court stopping Alien Enemy act deportations for now and bring in Strict Scrutiny's Leah Lippman to tell us what it all means. We'll also talk about Pete Hegseth's second Signal Chat scandal and the mutiny against him from within the Pentagon, how the White House started its war with Harvard by mistake and the passing of Pope Francis, who held on just long enough to dunk on J.D. vance. But let's start with the biggest news from the weekend, which is that the Supreme Court has inched even closer to a full blown confrontation with the Trump administration over their use of the Alien Enemies act to deprive people of any due process before disappearing them to prison. In El Salvador, the court issued a highly unusual emergency ruling in the middle of the night that specifically ordered the administration to halt their plans to deport a group of Venezuelans, at least temporarily. Only Justices Thomas and Alito dissented. In just a bit, you're going to hear Lovett's quick interview with our pal Leah Lippman from strict scrutiny about what the ruling means and what's next. Before we get to that, the three of us haven't had a chance to talk since Maryland Senator Chris Van Hollen returned from El Salvador after his last minute surprise meeting with Kilmer Abrego Garcia, who had been transferred out of sicot to a new prison. Bukele. And the Trump White House, of course, attacked Van Hollen for meeting with Abrego Garcia. Salvadoran officials even placed two fake margaritas in front of them to make it seem like everyone's having a good time down there. When Van Hollen returned home to margaritas.

[Jon Lovett]

I'm going to open the jail. All right?

[Tommy Vitor]

Huh? Yeah. One laugh and a lot of stone faces.

[Jon Favreau]

Sorry, I don't know that song.

[Jon Lovett]

It's okay.

[Jon Favreau]

I thought we'd go with like a. Like a Wasting away in Margaritaville. No, no, no. Okay. When Van Hollen returned home, he did all the Sunday shows. Here he is patiently answering questions from Fox News anchor Shannon Bream that might have caused me to burst a blood vessel. Did you ask him if he has any association with Ms. 13? I did not ask him directly because he's answered that question repeatedly, as his lawyers have. My purpose in going there was to, number one, see if he was alive, see if he was healthy. Take his story. Do you worry, though, that you are sticking your neck out for somebody who maybe down the line is proven to be connected to Ms. 13? I want to be very clear. I'm not vouching for the man. I'm vouching for the man's rights who did pay for this trip. This was an officially cleared, you know, congressional trip, clear taxpayer dollars basis. Yes, like every other trip that. Like the trip Kristi Noem took with her fashion show before Seekat nice.

[Tommy Vitor]

Also.

[Jon Favreau]

Also two Republican congressmen.

[Tommy Vitor]

Now, we paid for Kilmar Abrego Garcia's trip, too.

[Jon Favreau]

Yeah, 50 detention, $6 million a year and lodging.

[Tommy Vitor]

So shut up. So shut up.

[Jon Favreau]

It was really hard to watch the whole interview. Chris Van Hollen, patience of a saint there.

[Tommy Vitor]

He's doing a good job.

[Jon Favreau]

You guys have reactions to the meeting and the aftermath? The Trump folks seem to think this is a winning issue for them and that people will believe that the story is about Democrats trying to bring an MS.13 foreign terrorist back home.

[Tommy Vitor]

I think Van Hollen did a good job of making it about bigger principles. Like, he did exactly what I want Democrats to do in this moment, which is he stepped up. He flew down to El Salvador. He took personal political risk knowing Bukele would try to humiliate him, which he did with. It wasn't even. Was even a good margarita stunt. It was like a cherry or something.

[Jon Favreau]

No one's drinking margaritas with cherries.

[Tommy Vitor]

What are you doing, dude?

[Jon Lovett]

Yeah, it was. Was in a water glass. Was strange.

[Tommy Vitor]

It was foolish. And then he knew, obviously, that Republicans would attack him as, like, a fan of gang members. And sure enough, the White House photoshopped a photo of Van Holland with, like, gang tattoos all over his face and stuff. So it's just childish nonsense, but Van Hollen used what little leverage he had as US Senator to get the only results we've seen outside of a courtroom, which was to get access to Abrego Garcia. And I also think, you know, he's someone who's shown a lot of courage on a bunch of issues lately on Gaza, a whole bunch of other. A host of other things. And I think that's what we want from someone like him in a safe seat like Maryland to do, like, put your neck out there.

[Jon Favreau]

You guys have any thoughts on, like, why Bukele allowed the visit last minute? These are all educated guesses because we don't know for sure.

[Tommy Vitor]

But there was a not at all veiled threat that not allowing that access was a violation of international law and could lead to cuts to future U.S. assistance.

[Jon Lovett]

Right, except it would have to be cuts to future U.S. assistance under a different regime. I was surprised that he got the meeting because it's like he's bending to pressure. Van Hollen was staying to try to get the meeting, but it all feels very like. I think even the margaritas point to Trump and Bukele are doing this on the fly and figuring out what they're doing on the fly. What is the message? The putting, like, Two, Margaret. Like, it's so fucking stupid. But the whole point of Seekot is that it's a fucking hellhole that you brag about. The reason Kristi Noem and these Congress members of Congress took tourist photos in front of these prisoners is to send a message about how fucking terrible it is. So what exactly is the point of the margaritas? It's not terrible. He's actually on a vacation down there. I thought that's the opposite.

[Tommy Vitor]

He's just a troll. Like, that's the point. He likes to troll the left. He's on Twitter all the time. He's super online. So he's saying, oh, you're calling me a despot and a dictator and that we're torturing this man. Here he is having a margarita.

[Jon Favreau]

Yeah, he has risen kind of. He made some jokes and here he is enjoying a margarita.

[Tommy Vitor]

His Twitter bio used to say, world's coolest dictator. He just loves to be a troll. Like this.

[Jon Lovett]

Right. So then the meeting is a troll showing that he's fine. That's why the margaritas are there. You know what, it doesn't need to make sense.

[Jon Favreau]

Yeah. You can't think about it too much.

[Jon Lovett]

Well, that's my point. Like why?

[Jon Favreau]

It's like all of right wing politics right now.

[Jon Lovett]

Right. It's just, they're just, it's just fascist jazz. And they were just, they thought, well, let's give him the meeting. We'll make it, we'll make a joke out of it. We'll show that he's fine. We'll turn it to our advantage.

[Jon Favreau]

Yeah, that's bukele. And then I think the Trump White House is just like, they're going all in on the message. Democrats love Ms. 13. No other facts can penetrate this message. The idea that we just want people to have due process, that the Trump administration already admitted in court multiple times that they made an error. They haven't given any justification for why we're jailing people in a foreign prison perhaps for the rest of their lives. None of that matters at all.

[Jon Lovett]

Also, they can't. I mean, we'll get to it, but they also just have to either did like kind of quickly glide over or outright ignore the fact that these aren't just Democrats expressing these concerns. It's Reagan appointees. It's three Trump appointees to the Supreme Court. Yeah.

[Tommy Vitor]

And also just I want to point out that another story that was, I think broke late last week. So Trump invoking the Alien Enemies act requires him to claim that trend. Aragua is invading the US at the behest of the Maduro regime in Venezuela. Most legal experts believe, like that kind of linkage is necessary for Alien Enemies act declaration. Both the New York Times and the Washington Post reported that the National Intelligence Council, which is like the, the board that brings together the consensus opinion of the 18 component intelligence agencies, have determined that the Venezuelan government does not. They're not directing trend, they're not directing an invasion of the United States. So that undercuts Trump's public statements and the already shaky legal basis for the entire Alien Enemies act invocation.

[Jon Favreau]

Yeah. And a reminder, the Supreme Court has not ruled on the constitutionality of Trump invoking the Alien Enemies Act. So that could come back to bite them in the ass. And again, there's no legal justification and nothing in the Alien Enemies act that says you're not just able to deport people under the Alien Enemies act, you're able to send them to a foreign prison and pay a foreign country to jail them. There's no justification for that anywhere.

[Jon Lovett]

As a judge in the appeals court noted, Nazis were treated better under the Alien Enemies Act. But just your question on the politics, because we right now Democrats are supposed to be doing some kind of Cost of Living Week or something to that effect. It's Cost of Living Action Week.

[Jon Favreau]

Cost of living action.

[Jon Lovett]

No cost action. Cost of. We're doing, we're taking on. I'm not sure what it is.

[Tommy Vitor]

I don't think it's the COLA plan.

[Jon Lovett]

Now, dear listener, you won't know this existed because you didn't get the briefing on all the news that you get when you work on Pots Save America, because it's not going to break through because this is what the news is. And I was thinking about our conversation with Sarah McBride and the way in which Democrats have kind of allowed themselves or boxed themselves in on immigration over the years to the point where you're not supposed to be talking about due process, but also you're not supposed to be talking about border security. Right. Like, all of these were sort of unacceptable as the balance of what we were allowed to discuss got smaller and smaller. And there's this sort of consultant driven, poll driven, best sentence message testing idea that what you really need to be doing is figuring out the message that works with the broadest group of people. But also you should be using that message all the time. So you need to be trying to win everybody over a little bit all the time. Which in an environment like this means, for the most part, winning nobody over all the time. You have an issue like this, a lot of people may not be following it closely. It probably isn't the most important issue for the vast majority of people that voted in the presidential election. Maybe more people who voted in a midterm might care about this, but there are millions of people that are highly engaged that do care about this a lot. And if you're just being cynical, if you're just being crass, you can spend every day talking about the economy in the hopes of persuading everybody a little bit, inch by inch, until the midterms, I guess, even though we have no idea what the contours of that debate will look like two years from now, and I'm sure in October of next year, we'll be talking about the economy constantly, though, who knows what the main debate will be about? But right now, this is the most important way we can respond to the Trump administration. And there are millions of people who want to believe Democrats are credible agents on their behalf. And you have an opportunity to build that credibility with people that are desperate for people to show some, Some. Some leadership to. To show that they understand and really mean it when they say Trump is a threat to democracy. And so, yes, I get that there. You know, you guys talked about it Friday, Newsom saying it's a distraction, and there are people who think we should only be focused on tariffs in the economy. But right now, you can build a lot of trust with a group of people that will be your most important messengers a year from now. And just on cynical terms, I think that that's worth it.

[Jon Favreau]

Well, I mean, this is not a politically unpopular but courageous and morally right thing to do. It's also politically popular. Like, all the polling that's coming out so far is very clear that most people think we should not send people to a foreign prison without a trial. It's just, it's been. I have not seen a single poll yet that has argued otherwise. There are some polls that people are saying, oh, well, Trump's, you know, overall favorability on immigration is still the strongest issue. Yes. When you just scratch one inch beneath that surface, all the polling says otherwise.

[Jon Lovett]

Yeah, I think that's true.

[Jon Favreau]

But look, but I'm saying, I'm saying that's important because that's why these consultants, the consultant brain, is especially dumb on this one. It's like trying to figure out why Bukele put the margaritas on the table.

[Jon Lovett]

Yeah. I think, like, the fair, the more generous argument is to say, sure, sure, but over time, you're creating the impression that you're soft. I'm not. I don't agree. Over time, if Democrats pick this fight, what is your memory of this fight? It is not Democrats fighting for border security or fighting to to to lower costs, Democrats fighting for a more generous immigration system and fighting for an undocumented or illegal immigrant who applied for asylum, what have you. I don't agree with that argument, but we're making making this salient for people and I think that is still worth doing because I think years of trying to build a little bit of credibility with everyone all the time has left us with a lack of credibility with just about everyone.

[Jon Favreau]

So apparently the list of Ms.13 trend Aragua enthusiasts has grown to now include John Roberts, Brett Kavanaugh, Amy Coney Barrett, Neil Gorsuch, who joined the liberal justices in a late night emergency ruling over the weekend that blocked the deportation of a group of Venezuelans in North Texas under the Alien Enemies Act. The court ruled so quickly that the lower courts hadn't yet ruled, the Justice Department hadn't yet responded to the challenge, and Sam Alito hadn't yet finished his dissent, which very rare that the court releases an opinion without the dissent if the dissent is still being written.

[Tommy Vitor]

Were you guys surprised these geezers work so late?

[Jon Favreau]

I assume they're alerted, but then their clerks do most of the work.

[Jon Lovett]

Yeah, I think it was the question.

[Jon Favreau]

For our strict spree.

[Tommy Vitor]

Yeah.

[Jon Lovett]

Yeah. We talked about why, what it meant that Alito's hadn't yet dotted his T's and crossed his I's when it went out with Leah.

[Jon Favreau]

Well, the important point here is that the government claimed or tried to claim that it didn't have any imminent plans to deport the immigrants. And the court's ruling, when it came as fast as it came, showed that clearly they do not believe them. At least seven justices did not were not willing to trust the government and take their word for it. Wild stuff and also a bit complicated. So love it. Talk to Leah about this ruling and Judge Boasberg's contempt finding. Here's the interview with Leah.

[Jon Lovett]

Joining us now, professor of law at the University of Michigan, co host of Strict Scrutiny, Zingerman's deli aficionado and the author of the upcoming book Lawless how the Supreme Court Runs on Conservative Grievance, Fringe Theories and Bad Vibes. Available for pre order now out May 13th. Leah Lippman, welcome back.

[Leah Lippman]

Thanks for having me.

[Jon Lovett]

I want to just say, Leah, that I am at an advantage because I've already read the book so you know everything.

[Leah Lippman]

Why even have me on?

[Jon Lovett]

I have been prepared. Well, you know, it's a book can do many things, but it can't keep up with the daily news cycle. But it does prepare you for this moment. So I really do urge everyone listening to this to pause this podcast and put in a pre order. Let's get this thing on the bestseller list. That's, that's, that's one thing we can do to fight back against the, you know, the free it will make Sam.

[Leah Lippman]

Alito very mad if it will bestseller will.

[Jon Lovett]

And he keeps up with his Google alerts.

[Leah Lippman]

Oh yeah, he hate reads the Internet.

[Jon Lovett]

So a lot of developments over the last few days. There was an extraordinary ruling by Judge Harvey Wilkinson in the Abrego Garcia case on Thursday. On Friday, an appeals court paused Judge James Boasberg's plan to begin contempt proceedings against the Trump administration over their failure to turn around deportation flights to El Salvador. And then On Saturday, in a 7:2 ruling, the Supreme Court temporarily blocked the deportations of any Venezuelans held in Northern Texas under the Alien Enemies Act. Judge Samuel Alito issued a pissy little dissent to which Justice Clarence Thomas joined. Let's take each piece of this. First of all, what is the status of the Boasberg contempt proceedings?

[Leah Lippman]

That is on hold because the two to one D.C. circuit panel, two Trump appointees in the majority, paused the contempt order, which basically prevents Judge Boasberg from moving forward. And he had asked the government to submit declarations or to purge their contempt by bringing back everyone from the El Salvador Doran prison that the government had wrongfully sent there. So that is just on hold until further action by the D.C. circuit.

[Jon Lovett]

That is that like there are so many strange and extraordinary things happening how on the list of obviously it's not high on our list because of what else is happening. But this is a strange order, right, Because Boasberg didn't hold anybody in contempt. He was just beginning the process to try to gather information.

[Leah Lippman]

It is, as we say, on strict scrutiny, just total fuck shit, right? Like you are not ordinarily supposed to be able to appeal a rule ruling that does nothing that is not final. That leaves additional things to be determined. And Judge Boasberg, as you note, didn't hold anyone in contempt. And he held out the possibility that he would never hold anyone in contempt so long as the government returned people from El Salvador. So I don't know what the F. The D.C. circuit panel thought that they were pausing, but obviously the prospect of holding the Trump administration accountable under the law was just too galling for them to note. And they had to take a pause over that one.

[Jon Lovett]

So, as as you've noted on strict, Trump has a lot of power here. First of all, Boasberg might. One way in the past a judge might try to enforce contempt is by referring it to the Department of Justice. That's run by a Trump stooge. Boasberg can actually appoint a prosecutor himself. Right. But even then, the president would have pardon power. So could shut it down at any moment. This. Look, we're a far. We're far from here, but it is a question that I had. When Trump pardoned Joe Arpaio, the contempt was concluded. Right. If, if the administration takes no steps to right this wrong of these deportations that Judge Boasberg ordered stopped before they had even reached El Salvador and Trump pardons anyone connected to it, the crime would be ongoing. It would be a pardon of a bank robber while they're inside of the vault. So presumably contempt would just begin again because the president among, though the pardon power is incredible. Can't pardon people in the future.

[Leah Lippman]

That's true. Although the president can issue a preemptive pardon, you know, here before any criminal prosecution would begin. And it's possible, and I think even likely, that in the event the president did that, I don't really see the federal courts then trying to go back and say, well, even though he basically pardoned the offense up until this date, that offense has continued. And I think there would be difficult questions about whether it is indeed a new offense. And my guess is the federal court would probably stand down in that situation.

[Jon Lovett]

So let's talk about what the courts are willing to do. Is there a reason to have some tiny kernel of relief, if not hope, that seven members of the court, including three justices appointed by President Trump, stepped in to halt deportations under the Alien Enemies Act?

[Leah Lippman]

Short answer. Yes. You know, I think at minimum, it evinces a sense that the seven justices in the majority aren't willing to take the Trump administration at their word. Because, of course, the Trump administration was saying, well, we're giving these guys, like, reasonable time and reasonable notice to file their challenges, when obviously they weren't. And the administration has basically been thumbing their nose at the Supreme Court's directive and Judge Sinis order to bring back Mr. Abrego Garcia. And so I think the Supreme Court looked at all of that and realized, look, the prospect of the government shunting these people off to El Salvador and then never bringing them back is so real and the harm is so profound, we need to order a halt until we figure out what is going on and whether the administration is indeed providing the individuals with the notice that we said was required in our previous decision.

[Jon Lovett]

So you're reading into what would have driven the order, but the order doesn't. It's. It's not detailed. We actually, we got more information in Alito's dissent than we got in the order. But is there any other way to read this than as the seven justices looking at their previous ruling requiring reasonable time and being concerned that it's not being followed?

[Leah Lippman]

No one is. That's basically the point in Justice Alito's dissent. He says, you know, we should assume that the Trump administration is going to comply with our previous order directing them to provide reasonable time and notice. And he faults the seven justices who halted the deportations for not doing so. And I just want to kind of pause on the irony that the Supreme Court basically did in this case what they faulted Judge Boasberg for doing previously, namely halt, on a wholesale basis a bunch of deportations rather than requiring every individual to challenge their deportation themselves. And I think that underscores what we were talking about, which is the Supreme Court realized the error of their ways, that there actually needs to be this wholesale pause, because if there isn't, the government is just shuttling people around between jurisdictions, trying to find some court somewhere that will allow them to expel these people without due process.

[Jon Lovett]

So Alito writes this short but very mad dissent, and reading it, I don't. It's very. It's very technical, actually. But it seems to be, if you step back, what he's saying is nothing extraordinary is happening to require this extraordinary response.

[Leah Lippman]

Yeah. So he basically faults the court for not adhering to their normal process. And the things he points out the court did were one, to grant this pause in deportations before waiting to hear the government's response is one thing. Second is the Supreme Court acted by halting the deportations before waiting for the US Court of Appeals, the intermediary court, between the trial court, and the Supreme Court to act on the request to halt the deportations. And so those are two kind of abnormal procedural moves the seven justices made that Justice Alito says, what reason is there to do that? But the reality is, of course, we're not dealing with ordinary circumstances. So.

[Jon Lovett]

Right.

[Leah Lippman]

Like, you need to adapt in those circumstances, where, again, it looks like the administration is trying to evade any prospect of judicial review by just quickly expelling individuals without any prospect of judicial oversight.

[Jon Lovett]

He sort of plays dumb, like, why would we do this? Why would we do this. But seven of his colleagues have decided it was urgent. And, and there's two aspects of it that I was wanted to hear your take on. One is they put out the order before Alito had written his dissent. They thought this was such an emergency that they put out the statement freezing the deportations without the attached dissent. And I'm have you seen that ever before of the dissent coming later?

[Leah Lippman]

That has happened before. It happens in some courts of appeals, and it does sometimes happen in the Supreme Court. It's exceptionally unus. And honestly, a part of me read into this the idea that not only do the seven justices think that the Trump administration might be acting in bad faith, maybe they think Sam Alito is, too, because if he sat on his dissent and just didn't release it until it was too late, until after the administration had expelled the many individuals to El Salvador, then they would be facing the situation once again where they're trying to order the administration to return people from El Salvador. And so a part of me wondered if that is what was happening and maybe that's why he's so mad. Although he's usually mad.

[Jon Lovett]

There is. He is usually mad. There was another part of this, too, which you also talked about on the most recent episode of Strict, which is there's a kind of jurisdictional issue that happens with members of the Supreme Court for a case like this. And in this case, it would have gone to Alito alone first. And in that case, normally Alito would have had the chance to rule or refer it to the full court. But it seems like maybe that didn't happen here.

[Leah Lippman]

Yeah. So there's an odd wording in the order, which just noted there's an application that is pending before the court. The usual wording is the application was presented to Justice Alito and referred by him to the court. That's not what the order said. And so that, too, lends itself to some speculation of was Sam Alito just sitting on this application, not referring it to all of the members of the court, again in order to buy the administration time? And we don't know whether that did indeed happen. I just like to note to any member of the Supreme Court that I am on signal if you want to accidentally add me to your group chat and let me know what's going on. But that, too, is a possibility that the seven justices were just concerned he was trying to run out the clock.

[Jon Lovett]

On the other side of the conservative legal spectrum, you have Judge Harvey Wilkinson, who wrote a beautiful and extraordinary ruling around these deportations and I'm wondering what, you know, it's been a few days since it came out. Is there any part of it that has stuck out with you, any impression that it's left?

[Leah Lippman]

I think it was an incredibly powerful writing. I especially appreciated his call to other judges and to the executive branch to insist that the executive branch abide by the law. And I thought that was especially pointed because many of the Supreme Court's actions to date have looked like attempts to avoid confrontations with the Trump administration and to avoid really holding their feet to the fire and them accountable to the law. Maybe out of concern that they just wouldn't abide by the court's order. But that's an unsustainable state of affairs. You can't just give the administration the green light and not do anything because you think they will disobey a court order. You're in effect like allowing them to violate the law if that's what you do. And so I really appreciated Judge Wilkinson coming down hard on that point and really writing, I think, for the Republican appointees on the Supreme Court.

[Jon Lovett]

Leo Littman, thank you so much. We'll be right back.

[Leah Lippman]

Thank you.

[Jon Favreau]

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[Tommy Vitor]

Or melt them in acid, it sounds like.

[Jon Lovett]

Yeah, well, yeah, just the the head of the Federalist posted after that missive, when we're done deporting illegals, it's time to start deporting rogue judges.

[Tommy Vitor]

Huh?

[Jon Favreau]

Cool, cool, cool.

[Tommy Vitor]

Also, if you're using the word parasitical, you're just trying too hard, in my opinion.

[Jon Favreau]

It's like you're like a. The White House lays on no homeland Security. It's not like you got to get some attention there.

[Jon Lovett]

It is this an intellectual treaty. It was like intellectualists, right? It was just this sort of like, treatise about why seven justices, including the three Donald Trump appointed, are not just wrong, but they have to be captured by liberal ideology. Must be evil because there's no other way to make sense of why they would do this.

[Tommy Vitor]

Disagree?

[Jon Lovett]

Yeah, like the, it's interesting. Like just these people that you've picked out, a lot of them have sounded like these are the fringe that are now in more either in the government or just louder voices that reflect a bigger part of the base. These are people that have talked this way and thought this way for a long time. But for the first time, there's a genuine possibility that the president, that the people that work for the president might actually listen to these cranks, these sort of authoritarian right wing fucking cranks. And it is really, really scary.

[Tommy Vitor]

I also think it's important to note that before this ruling, Trump was planning to openly defy the Supreme Court by deporting these men without giving them due process. That was ordered by the Supreme Court. And they were given a piece of paper in English only, told to sign it, and then loaded on buses. And thank God the Supreme Court was working weekends this week, or else these men would almost certainly be in El Salvador right now. Now, God bless the aclu, by the way, for these lawyers like, you know, sprinting through courtrooms and filing emergency injunctions and doing everything they can to protect these people.

[Jon Favreau]

I understand why there's been so much focus on Abrego Garcia, because that is the one case where the government admitted in court multiple times that it was an error. But when you really dig into a lot of these folks who are getting deported under Alien Enemies act to El Salvador, you know, the administration's putting out, like, here are. Here are six people and all of the most horrible things they've ever done that we're sending there. It's like, okay, fine, there was like 200 something that are that have been sent there. And you know, the New York Times did a story on this about the, what led to the late night ruling and sort of the scramble by the aclu. And they said one of the men last named Prieto said, quote, there had been no order for his deportation and that his immigration documents were in order. He said, I have American children. They brought me here and I'm innocent. They arrested me without any warrant for nothing. For nothing. They brought me here. And then, you know, they mentioned this story Tommy told about the guy who was forced to sign, you know, another.

[Tommy Vitor]

Guy who had tps, that ice broke into his house and was about to deport him. They held him for a couple months.

[Jon Favreau]

We've talked about Andriy, the Venezuelan makeup artist. We've talked. And there's just so many stories like that that it's. And some of these people have even less of a connection than, you know, Garcia was alleged to have and, you know, by some random cop somewhere.

[Jon Lovett]

The other sort of line of reasoning from some of these far right people is, well, if we can't. If we can't deport people, well, we don't have a country anymore.

[Tommy Vitor]

Right?

[Jon Lovett]

And first of all, Donald Trump can deport people, has his will. He's allowed to deport a lot, tens.

[Jon Favreau]

Of thousands every month so far.

[Jon Lovett]

Ah. But the other part of this is, why is he deporting people to a foreign gulag?

[Jon Favreau]

They never wanted no one, no one on Fox, none of these people will grapple with the fucking gulag part of this. None of them will defend it. They act like, well, we just dropped them off in El Salvador and suddenly they ended up in the jail there, which is just not what happened. We're paying them to house them.

[Jon Lovett]

And that's what makes. I think. And I talked about this a bit with Leah Lee, like, sort of the. The legal aspects of it. But it is extraordinary that the Supreme Court has done this because they're basically acknowledging the urgency of it, the doing it in the middle of the night, the doing it before Alito could finish his own dissent. They are acknowledging that by the logic of the Supreme Court, which Wilkinson talked about in his ruling last week, that if they deport someone in error to this prison, they can't get them back. And the Supreme Court, which already said people have a right to a certain amount of time to respond, is clearly saying here, this is so urgent, this is so dangerous, we gotta shut this all down right now until we've had more time to examine what the Trump administration is doing. And we can't take what the Trump administration says at face value. We cannot believe them when they say that, oh, there aren't gonna be any flights this weekend which was. Or they're not aware of any flights this weekend, that the lawyers that are speaking to the court on behalf of the Trump administration either are not telling the truth or don't have all the facts themselves.

[Tommy Vitor]

What's confusing about this is, politically speaking, there seems to be a much easier, much smarter path for Donald Trump, which is to say that the border's locked down, take the win there, and then slowly, methodically deport people. I mean, the proximate reason why they are deporting Venezuela and so El Salvador, because Venezuela won't take back Venezuelans. Right. So, but that doesn't mean that it has to happen tomorrow or the next day. And I assume that they're shredding the Constitution because this is Stephen Millard's passion project. Donald Trump cares a lot about it, too. There's an element of their base that loves it, but I do. And there's probably a deterrent effect for others who might come here if they see the United States being just unbelievably cruel to everyone, no matter what. But politically speaking, I do think there is some risk that people are going to say, why are you doing this? Why are you so focused on this stuff? Why are we not allowing people a day in court? Like, that doesn't seem that hard. Like JD Vance's Twitter op ed screed about how sometimes it's inconvenient to allow for due process or it costs too much or it takes too many resources. Like, I don't think anyone believes that.

[Jon Favreau]

Well, it's true that there is a large backlog of immigration cases because we don't have enough immigration judges. And our system has been broken for a long time. There's a way to fix that, which is pass legislation that funds more immigration judges. Oh, by the way, that was the legislation that Joe Biden, Democrats in Congress and a bunch of conservative Republicans tried to pass. And then Donald Trump killed it because he wanted the issue. Right. So that tells you a lot about if they're really interested in actually solving the backlog of immigration cases. Well, even though also there's way to. There's plenty of ways to expedite deportations if you need to. If there is a public safety threat, you can. Like, there's a million different ways to deport people. They've done it before. Joe Biden's done it. They're doing it now since they became president. Barack Obama did it. George W. Bush did it. It's complete bullshit. This whole, like, if we cannot throw people in the Gulag, we don't have a country anymore.

[Jon Lovett]

Right. If we can't, we're not gonna deport millions of people 100 at a time on an airplane to a foreign jail even. All of this is still a sideshow. There are millions and Millions of people in this country who are undocumented. They came here to work. They came here to work because we built a system of second class citizenship for people who can get to this country. They can be employed. There are people that have wanted to do things like E Verify, which would require employers to make sure someone is a citizen before they are hired. There are lots of stuff I don't. I think these, I think undocumented people, I think we should have a path to citizenship. I'm not saying that these are good ideas. There are lots of steps you could take to address undocumented immigrants. They have chosen to target people who have received temporary protected status, asylum seekers. Right. Like they are choosing this because first of all, I think they like the politics better. And second of all, it doesn't make a lot of their biggest wealthiest donors angry when it cracks down on the people that work for agribusiness, when it cracks down on the people that work for construction companies. When it cracks down on the people that make our economy go.

[Jon Favreau]

Yeah. So like you said, this is not just about Abreco Garcia. It's not just about other immigrants who came here illegally. So far, more than a thousand foreign students have had their visas canceled, including many who aren't political activists haven't even publicly shared their political views. We're also seeing more horror stories about the government throwing people behind bars for doing nothing wrong. We learned on Friday that Jose Hermosillo, an American citizen from New Mexico, was arrested by Border Patrol while on a walk during a visit to Arizona and was then detained in an ICE facility for 10 days. Ten days, until his family was able to prove his citizenship and get him out. We also learned that in mid March, two teenage girls from Germany were detained at the Honolulu Airport after saying that they hadn't booked accommodations for their entire five week stay in Hawaii. They were held overnight in what they said were appalling conditions and then deported to Tokyo. DHS says they were kicked out because they said they told CPB agents that they planned to work while traveling, which they didn't have the right visa for. But the students say that when they were pressed on this, they simply told the agents that they sometimes do freelance jobs online for customers back in Germany. Feels like this probably isn't helping the huge drop off in tourism to the. To the U.S. yeah, I mean, in.

[Tommy Vitor]

2023, international visitors spent roughly $225 billion in the U.S. so if a big chunk of that goes away, that's going to be not a tiny hit to gdp. And it's going to. It will have the potential to decimate specific communities that are tourism destinations. And like, we're already seeing this with Canada because this precipitated immigration questions. This was about Trump threatening to annex the country. Canadian car Trips to the US are down 32% last month compared to March 2024. Air travel is down 13% year over year, and airline bookings are down 70%. And so if you sort of like, extrapolate that out, if people around the world are just like, I can't go to the United States, they're going to fuck with me or treat me horribly or, you know, God knows, like Goldman Sachs said, there's a worst case scenario where the US could lose $90 billion in revenue this year from a decrease in tourism and people just choosing not to buy American stuff.

[Jon Favreau]

I also, I saw a couple people pointing out that we're supposed to have an Olympics here.

[Jon Lovett]

Yeah.

[Jon Favreau]

In a couple years. We're supposed to have the World cup here.

[Tommy Vitor]

World cup.

[Jon Favreau]

And other countries are issuing travel warnings to the United States, like our allies or former allies.

[Tommy Vitor]

And the soccer, the World cup, it's supposed to be Pan North American Games. So if we're still fighting with the Canadians and fighting with the Mexicans, it's not going to be good.

[Jon Lovett]

Be like when Carter didn't let the Americans go to Russia, you know?

[Jon Favreau]

Yeah. Multiple US Citizens now have gotten these random emails, letters from ice, from the cpb, saying, you have to leave the country now. And maybe they were in error, maybe they weren't. Another U.S. citizen was detained in Miami for a while. Four students at case Western Reserve were told their visas were revoked and that they needed to leave. And then they had to go to court. And the government was like, oh, maybe we screwed up. We're not sure. The judge was, like, so angry. He was like, this is Kafkaesque. I can't believe it. He's like, the government's telling me they don't even know if these people are here legally or not. You can't even tell me this. The government counsel. But you just arrested them. And the other thing that I think what's happening here is these agents, whether they're ICE agents or CPB agents, like, they're starting to. They're lying. And I'm not. I don't want to impugn all of them. Right. But, like, the Hermosillo, the guy who was detained in Arizona, like, he was arrested in Tucson, the agent says he was actually in Nogales, which is an hour south of Tucson. And that's where they picked him up. So we know he was lying about that. So the rest of the lie, which is like, oh, he told them he was here unlawfully and that's why they detained him, which is now what fucking DHS is saying.

[Tommy Vitor]

Trisha McLaughlin, the spokeswoman for the Department of Homeland Security, tweeted that this 19 year old American citizen walked up to a border patrol agent and said, hey, I entered illegally from Mexico. That he offered up this information. And she tweets this thinking that this is a credible story in any way, doesn't think to maybe fact check it.

[Jon Favreau]

That happens all the time. You get caught by a federal agent, you're like, I'm here illegally. I came from Mexico.

[Jon Lovett]

It's like the fact throughout all of this, right, we've been saying this could come for U.S. citizens, right? And the fact that the government is willing not just to do this without due process, not just to repair it when a judge orders it, but that the spokesperson for the Department of Homeland Security is actively lying about this case is here it is. This is an American citizen who was picked up. They are clearly lying. She is just passing along this fucking lie. And what if he had been on a plane to El Salvador?

[Tommy Vitor]

The kid, kid was in jail for 10 days before they sorted things out. The government couldn't call the government to figure out if he was a citizen for 10 days.

[Jon Lovett]

This is where it's like the kind of intellectualizing that like JD Vance and others are doing to defend this behavior. It's just so. It's so ridiculous and so just so false on its face. Like let's say every single sentence about what you're trying to do is true. Why wouldn't you want to fix mistakes? Why would you want to lie about Americans? Why wouldn't you want to get it right even on your own fucking terms? Why wouldn't you want to get it right?

[Jon Favreau]

Because they want. I think it was like what Tommy was saying. I think they just want to scare the shit out of people, you know.

[Tommy Vitor]

And I also think they have a 1 million deportee quota that Stephen Miller is pushing them to meet over the course of the year.

[Jon Favreau]

Minnesota. Look, last week there's a guy from Indonesia who's here on a student visa working at a hospital in Minnesota. His student visa was revoked four days before his arrest, but he wasn't told, he wasn't notified that the visa was revoked. And so then they just arrested him because he overstayed the visa for four days after not telling him they Asked why he doesn't understand. He has an eight month old daughter, American wife, citizen doesn't understand, has been here since 2015, came legally and they say, oh, he's a threat to public safety. So then they looked into his background. In 2022, he pled to a misdemeanor for spray painting graffiti on a bridge. And then the big one, he was charged with unlawful assembly over a protest around George Floyd's murder that was later dismissed. Not violent, not nothing, no property destruction, no nothing. Just showing up there. And so I do think that on student visa stuff they're starting with the Gaza stuff, but they're just going after and they're doing this with like AI too. They're looking through anyone who's here on a student visa if you've ever had any run ins with the law that aren't political, or if you've ever shown up at any kind of political protest anywhere. That's how they're targeting people now, not January 6th, right? Yeah, of course. Pod Save America is brought to you by Rocket Money Tariffs are trending. What does that actually mean for your wallet?

[Jon Lovett]

Oh man, they are trending.

[Jon Favreau]

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[Nicolo Magnoni]

My name is Niccolo Moinoni, and for years I have been obsessed with one of Europe's greatest mysteries. Who killed God's banker?

[Jon Lovett]

The wire said Calvi found dead, suicide question mark.

[Nicolo Magnoni]

What truly happened to the banker who had the Vatican, the mafia, and a secret far right branch of the Freemasons all pounding on his door? From Crooked Media and Campside Media, this is Shadow Kingdom Season 1, God's Banker. Find it wherever you get your podcasts or get early access to the full season by joining Crooked's Friends of the [e-mail] friends.

[Jon Favreau]

One sign that the deportation stories are starting to break through in a way that the White House can't be too happy about is that they're losing. Joe Rogan. Here he is talking about it on his show.

[Joe Rogan]

The problem with things that are going in a radical direction and then, then there's an over correction. So the over correction is lack of due process. The overcorrection is like, round them all up, ship them to jail. Like, that's like some things that you say when you're not thinking things through. Like, what do you do about all the criminals? Take them all. Fucking send them to El Salvador.

[Jon Lovett]

Yeah.

[Joe Rogan]

What about due process? No, fuck that. Well, here's the problem with fuck that. What if you are an enemy of, let's not say any current president. Let's pretend we got a new president, totally new guy in 2028. And this is a common practice now of just rounding up gang members with no due process and shipping them to El Salvador. You're a gang member? No, I'm not. Prove it. What, I got to go to court? No, no due process.

[Jon Favreau]

Joe Rogan making a lot of sense.

[Jon Lovett]

Yeah. It's also like to back to where we started. Like, do you want to do, like this is breaking through for people? Do you want to be seen as fighting, as having a genuine moral conviction during this moment, or do you want to be out there saying it's a distraction and that we really need to be talking about the cost of living? There are people watching to see what people stand for right now.

[Tommy Vitor]

Yeah, I think Rogan weighing in on this really is meaningful. I mean, it also just reflects the reality that there are, like, we hear the Maga den ender crazies that you read out. Like, they get quoted, they get picked up in the media. But most normies are like, of course I believe in due process. Of course you should have a day in court. The idea of, like hurting an innocent person, you can empathize with that easily and it's offensive to you. So, like, it's great to hear Rogan talking about this to his audience. I hope he keeps doing it. I also think it reflects the reality that Trump is good as an opposition leader, but he fucking sucks at governing.

[Jon Favreau]

Yeah. And to your point, there's also this like, well, the Trump White House thinks they're winning the issue because they love talking about this. One reason they might be talking about it so much is because they're worried that the narrative is gonna get away from them and that they're gonna lose the argument. And that's why they have to lie about everything and talk about it nonstop. And that's why, like, Stephen Miller is screaming. Which, by the way, did you hear the strict scrutiny. Hosts call him Pee Wee German. Amazing German.

[Jon Lovett]

Well, one of the reason they want to be talking about this is the markets are tanking. People are angry about the tariffs. The cost of living is going up, not down. His approval on the economy is as low as it's ever been since he's been president last term, this term. So they have a real big problem on their hands.

[Jon Favreau]

But I also think, I think that they are genuinely. There is a concern that they're going to lose the narrative here. And right before we recorded, I don't know if you guys saw that Trump posted about the court and the 7:2 decision. And it was a very uncharacteristic Trump truth. Cuz he was like, I have great respect for the court, but even the Supreme Court I have great respect for are now saying that I can't deport Venezuelans or anyone back to their country, even if they're violent. And I don't like that and blah, blah, blah. But he's like, at least Alito understood.

[Jon Lovett]

Well, that's what he's. Look, they're fucking all hyper. All the people that are around Donald Trump are like, super online and reading all the same stuff. We're talking about. What Trump has been doing is saying, Pam, we gotta figure out what the law is, gotta follow the law. I have great respect for the Supreme Court while they kind of play this sort of, this game of breaking kind of breaking directly, breaking the orders. I do think you kind of get back to this sort of like the Pope died and there's this apocryphal. Maybe it's apocryphal Stalin quote of like, oh, how many divisions does the Pope have? And you see a lot. You see Joe Rogan, but you also see a lot of, I think, respected conservative people talking about the importance of following the Supreme Court. I think the Wilkinson opinion matters. I think the intellectual conversation on the right does still impossibly matter. I remember when Kennedy, senator from Louisiana, was doing a hearing, he said, the one rule is, you got to tell me you're not going to break a court order. You got to follow court orders. Right. That's what Schumer has been banking on. And I don't know, but it does feel like they, at least in the White House, are not completely sure that they will get away with outright breaking right now a Supreme Court order.

[Jon Favreau]

Yeah, which is why I think you have Stephen Miller just like lying about the decision. Although you did have J.D. vance said many times before he became vice president, he did the whole Andrew Jackson quote. You know, the supreme justice, the Chief justice has made it. His has made his ruling, now let him enforce it. So that's where he is. Other big news from the weekend, the Times reported on Sunday night that a second Signal Group chat has hit the Pentagon.

[Jon Lovett]

Whoa, Jesus.

[Tommy Vitor]

So I did a video on this yesterday. Elijah recommended that as the title and we decided not to. I like that you read it out.

[Jon Favreau]

You know, Defense Secretary Pete Hegseth reportedly shared those same Houthi war plans in a chat called Defense Team Huddle, made up of 13 people, including Hegseth's Fox News producer wife and his brother, who's now one of his advisors. A couple hours after the Signal story posted, newly resigned Pentagon spokesman John Ulliot published a Politico piece describing, quote, a full blown meltdown inside the Pentagon, which he called the month from hell, before citing rumors of more bombshell stories to come. Jesus, what's left? And predicting that Hegseth will be out soon.

[Jon Lovett]

Literal bombshell stories.

[Jon Favreau]

Yeah, right. He did make sure to say of Hegseth, I value his friendship and we accomplished a lot together.

[Jon Lovett]

Well, tell me about the friendships you don't value.

[Jon Favreau]

I know it's a little confusing. Predictably, Democratic lawmakers are back to calling on Hegseth to resign, and so is at least one Republican member of Congress, Don Bacon of Nebraska, who happens to be a former Air Force general. He said that if the Signal report is true, it's, quote, totally unacceptable. And that Hegseth is, quote, acting like he's above the law. And that shows an amateur person. Today, NPR reported that the White House has already Begun the search for his replacement. But Caroline Levitt quickly shut that down as fake news. Still, the work of the nation must go on. And both Hegseth and his boss, Donald Trump, were at the White House Easter Egg roll on Monday, where they both commented on the situation as a jazz combo played in the background.

[Jon Lovett]

Pete's doing a great job. Everybody's happy with him. We have the highest recruitment numbers I.

[Jon Favreau]

Think they've had in 28 years.

[Jon Lovett]

No, he's doing a great job.

[Jon Favreau]

It's just fake news.

[Jon Lovett]

They just bring up, you know what a big surprise that a bunch of.

[Tommy Vitor]

A few leakers get fired and suddenly.

[Jon Lovett]

A bunch of hit pieces come out from the same media that peddled the Russia hoax. And as they peddle those lies, no.

[Tommy Vitor]

One ever calls them on it. See, this is what the media does.

[Jon Lovett]

They take anonymous sources from disgruntled former employees, and then they try to slash and burn people and ruin their reputations. Not going to work with me.

[Jon Favreau]

Anonymous sources like the guy who was your spokesman until he quit and published an op ed about own name.

[Tommy Vitor]

There's nothing better than, like, statements of grave national importance made next to a giant bunny. Can you see several?

[Jon Lovett]

Today there was several. Today Trump issued his statement about the death of Pope Francis standing next to the fucking Easter Bunny.

[Jon Favreau]

Real hero of Easter.

[Jon Lovett]

It's. We're. And, like, these are the people that are saying. It's just like, it's not important. But these are the people saying that we need to trust them on these, On. On. On random deportations. But they can't figure out a way to get Donald Trump to speak to the cameras about the death of the Pope. Probably the one time Trump will ever get to talk about the death of the Pope as president without the Easter Bunny standing next to him. That is fucking insane.

[Tommy Vitor]

Well, he's so good.

[Jon Favreau]

He is. He's going to the funeral with Melania, and he is looking forward to being there. Exclamation.

[Tommy Vitor]

He made the food.

[Jon Lovett]

He just wants the food.

[Tommy Vitor]

Some good pasta.

[Jon Favreau]

Tommy, anything new and interesting in terms of the details that Hegseth shared here in both. I thought the op ed from Politico was wild, but why don't you.

[Tommy Vitor]

I mean, it sounds like it was just. He was sharing the same basic information, like the F18s are going to bomb this target at this time.

[Jon Lovett]

It's a classic to share the same joke in multiple group chats. Yeah, that is the same. The same information.

[Jon Favreau]

Yeah.

[Tommy Vitor]

I mean, the difference here is the first signal. Signal gate group chat was started by Mike Waltz A national security advisor. And that was a group of people with whom one would should discuss whether or not to bomb Yemen. This was a group started by Hegseth himself, and it was created on his personal phone, which is a very, very big no, no. I mean, I think, like, there's probably a half dozen intel agencies that have tried to, you know, break that phone. A few probably have succeeded. And he's just sharing classified information on it.

[Jon Lovett]

Do you think he's. Do you think he uses a really great password manager on his private phone? Pete Hag said, you think, you think Pegs P Hexag has got state of the art. He was a Fox News anchor three months ago weekend.

[Jon Favreau]

Can we talk about the. Can we talk about the. The chaos in the Pentagon that this guy wrote about, who used to be spokesman? Like it sounds. They're trying to brush it off as like, a few anonymous sources, but it seems like there's like a mutiny going on in there.

[Tommy Vitor]

Well, what's weird about this is he. They've already purged, like the Biden era professional people.

[Jon Favreau]

Right.

[Leah Lippman]

Right.

[Tommy Vitor]

CQ Brown, the chairman of the Joint Chiefs out. Lisa Franchetti, who is the director of the Navy out. And they're slowly starting to replace them. But the people we're talking about Hegseth firing here, or they're getting pushed out in this leak investigation or whatever, are like his guys, like Dan Caldwell, the dude who was his senior advisor. He was his friend of over a decade. They worked together at that nonprofit. He was the point of contact on that original Mike Waltz signal gate, being like, if you, If, If I can't be around to talk about, you know, this issue. Dan is my proxy. And now they're forcing these guys out. So Hegseth is missing now. No longer has his senior advisor, his chief of staff, his deputy chief of staff, and I think there's some other officials that get pushed out. So it just sounds like it's chaos over there. I mean, the spokesman says it's chaos.

[Jon Favreau]

And it is the Defense Department. He's running the US Military.

[Jon Lovett]

Well, it's almost as if when people noted before that he'd run two tiny nonprofits poorly. Poorly. Couldn't do it. Had a bunch of public intoxication, chaos, missing money, all kinds of problems. And running these groups when people say assault allegations, he wasn't up for the job of running the biggest bureaucracy in the federal government. There might have been some fucking truth to it and that now you can spin your way to it, you can bully a bunch of Republican senators into going along with this. But now he has the job and it's a real job and he can't do it.

[Tommy Vitor]

And, you know, shit could go down. Like, we don't know what's happening behind the scenes. We don't know what debates are, you know, might scare us if we were aware of them. But you had CQ Brown, the Chairman of Joint Chief got pushed out. The new guy, Dan Cain, was just confirmed like the other day raising Cain. And he had been retired for like a year. So he's like kind of getting back up to speed. And also there is this battle in Republican foreign policy between the more isolationist wing of the MAGA world and the more traditional neocon hawkish types. You're seeing it really play out in this debate over the Iran nuclear talks that are happening, that Steve Witkoff, the actual Secretary of State, not. Make a wish Secretary of State Marco Rubio. So I mean, it's just interesting. Like that's kind of the backdrop is these guys are still figuring out what they believe and what they're going to do. And now the Pentagon was just purged.

[Jon Favreau]

And it does feel like we're once again in a situation where maybe if this didn't break in the news and was all over the place that Donald Trump might like, quietly get rid of him. But of course, you gotta dig in. Everyone starts now, who knows? Because, like, there was a room, you know, the NPR had that one source that said they're looking for someone new and then everyone fake news it to death, you know, but.

[Jon Lovett]

But the problem with a bunch of liars is we can't take it seriously. Nobody knows. And by the way, he should be.

[Jon Favreau]

Out by the time we are done recording this.

[Jon Lovett]

Donald Trump has said. I am sticking with. Donald Trump has said about people he fired within days, if not hours. I'm not firing this person. So we will see. But this Donald Trump does not like this is this, is this reflects very poorly on him. It looks fucking bad. He's getting nothing for it.

[Tommy Vitor]

Terrible press.

[Jon Favreau]

I mean, well, what he's got. Yeah. What he needs is if he's going to replace him, he's got to find someone else who can get confirmed who will be absolutely loyal to Donald Trump over the Constitution, the military and anyone else. Yeah.

[Tommy Vitor]

You mean that clip of Hexef was so unconvincing. He's like shouting at a C SPAN camera. He's pointing to his own children, kind of like using them as a shield media in that moment. And he just had the look and the feel of A man who is in so far over his head and he does not know how to get out of it.

[Jon Lovett]

It seems like a bad dream. It seems like a bad dream. You're at the Easter egg Roll, there's a bunny next to you. Donald Trump is next to you. You're being asked about these terrible mistakes that you made. I will the one.

[Jon Favreau]

And you got your spokesman out there being like, oh, there's, there's so much worse stories are going to drop this week.

[Jon Lovett]

And I say that as a friend. That's very Real Housewives, by the way. As a friend, Pete, I'm telling you, you' piece of shit. But the, the other. Yeah, the one, the other side of it is that the more, the more Pete Hegseth is under siege, the more loyal he'll have to be to Donald Trump. Right.

[Jon Favreau]

Which Donald Trump loves my boss mentality.

[Jon Lovett]

So there is that aspect of it of like, can he hold on, get to the other side of a news cycle and still be there at Trump's, at Trump's largess.

[Tommy Vitor]

But just for, just to be crystal clear, if any uniform member of the military did what Hegseth did with signal, they would be fired if not court martialed, any normal administration would fire him on the spot and refer to DOJ for prosecution. And the fact that we're even talking about this, like, there's also reports that, that, that Pete Hegseth was bringing his wife to his meetings with like the NATO counterpart. Like, these are, these are defense minister to defense minister talks.

[Jon Favreau]

You need a Fox News producer there at all times to get some good content.

[Jon Lovett]

We're just in our Wednesday Pod Save America meeting and then. And you're like, oh, Hannah's gonna sit in to take to be here.

[Jon Favreau]

Well, I mean, well, we're not discussing classified info, but I'm saying even without.

[Tommy Vitor]

That would be like if Hannah panelists like bomb Poland. Yeah, we'd have a real problem.

[Jon Favreau]

Pod Save America is brought to you by ZipRecruiter. According to a recent ZipRecruiter survey, 76% of employers plan to expand headcount for 2025.

[Tommy Vitor]

Want to redo that survey after this in the markets, bud.

[Jon Favreau]

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[Nicolo Magnoni]

My name is Niccolo Minoni, and for years I have been obsessed with one of Europe's greatest mysteries. Who killed God's Banker?

[Jon Lovett]

The Wire said Calvi found dead suicide question mark.

[Nicolo Magnoni]

What truly happened to the banker who had the Vatican, the Mafia, and a secret far right branch of the Freemasons all pounding on his door? From Crooked Media and Campside Media, this is Shadow Kingdom Season 1, God's Banker. Find it wherever you get your podcasts or get early access to the full season by joining Crooked's friends of the [e-mail] friends.

[Jon Favreau]

Speaking of chaos, in the category of serious news, that's also funny, the Times reported on Friday that Trump's war on Harvard started by accident. The original letter demanding concessions received by the university a week before apparently was sent without proper authorization at the White House. At the time, Harvard was engaged in what it thought were productive talks with administration lawyers from the White House's Anti Semitism Task force, which is how they're laundering their attacks on academic freedom and free speech. Harvard was expecting a letter from the task force with some details about their concerns. What they got instead was the nuclear option. An email from one of the task force lawyers making a whole host of crazy demands, including federal oversight of admissions and hirings. That is fucking nuts. Eradication of all diversity efforts and the disbanding of pro Palestinian groups. Some of the anonymous leakers who talked to the Times said the guy who sent the letter did so prematurely. Others said he'd meant to send it around internally for review. Hate when that happens. Anyway, it caused Harvard to publicly reject the demands the following Monday. As we discussed last week, the administration then froze more than $2 billion in funds, threatened Harvard's tax exempt status, and threatened to shut down its ability to enroll any foreign students whatsoever. The Wall Street Journal reports that, of course, doubling down again, the administration is now planning to pull another $1 billion in research funding. So administration admits they sent Abrego Garcia to El Salvador in error, but then they refuse to correct the mistake. And then they dig in even further. They accidentally sent a crazy letter to Harvard, then they refused to correct the mistake, and they dig in even further. You guys notice a pattern here?

[Jon Lovett]

So what is strange about this is it took a few days for us to find out that the administration is claiming this is a mistake. But if it was an actual mistake, they would have known instantly. And yet they spent a week freezing the funds, then adding this new threat to tax exempt status. So they went forward as if it wasn't a mistake. Fine. The problem with the claim that this is somehow a mistake, it would imply that these demands are materially different than the demands they put on Columbia when they're really not. Right?

[Jon Favreau]

That, like the federal oversight of admissions.

[Jon Lovett]

And hirings, the set of that Columbia. I don't know exactly what Columbia ended up conceding to, but those were part of the demands on Columbia up to and including a new provost to oversee a specific department. Right. Like the demands that Columbia agreed to, which is why it was so pathetic that Columbia caved basically in the same way this does made Trump dean. They're different. They're different. But like, I think it's a. I think you could. I think it's hard to claim that these are so much more extreme than what Colombia had already agreed to.

[Jon Favreau]

I thought that they were much. I thought they were much worse, but.

[Jon Lovett]

I think some of them are worse. Some of them aren't the same. They treated them differently. But like, I think Donald Trump basically demanding a private university hire a specific fucking administrative official is crazy, right? Demanding that Columbia take greater control over student groups is crazy. Like, these are. Maybe these demands are different, but this is exactly the plan, including them then threatening the funding after. So like, all right, maybe this was sent an error, maybe it was sent too quickly. But like, I partly wonder if this is clean up because the blowback was so Much worse than they expected. And all the other schools jumped in behind Harvard after Harvard.

[Tommy Vitor]

But it does sound like the sourcing on the story is the administration sent a letter in error, and then someone from the administration called Harvard to be like, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait. Delete that, delete that, delete that.

[Jon Favreau]

Yeah, yeah.

[Tommy Vitor]

So it's confusing. I mean, we should be clear that, you know, the grant money that's getting cut off to Harvard, it's not going to like caviar for the kids. It's mostly like research for medical cancer research, Alzheimer's research, like cutting edge scientific research. It's a contract that benefits all of us.

[Jon Lovett]

Well, and it's a contract. It's a government contract.

[Jon Favreau]

The government pays our best institutions to help do medical research, scientific research to benefit the country. That's the whole deal. Anyone else notice that one of the lawyers that Harvard hired to deal with this is Robert Herr?

[Tommy Vitor]

Sure did.

[Jon Favreau]

Coming back for the new season, do we?

[Jon Lovett]

Hey, hey, Robert. Her. Listen, you know, there's a lot of things were said last year. 2024 was an interesting time. And, you know, we can look back on it. I don't think we should look back. I think we just move forward.

[Tommy Vitor]

Robert, her getting hired by them is interesting. Clearly like a, you know, very conservative lawyer. Well thought of, you know, worked at DOJ for a long time, though, as a choice to make Donald Trump happy is an odd one because he did not prosecute Joe Biden.

[Jon Favreau]

Right. Yeah, we remember. He was. He wasn't a hero on the other side either.

[Tommy Vitor]

No, they hated him, too.

[Jon Favreau]

Yeah, well, whatever.

[Tommy Vitor]

He called him old cool, but didn't.

[Jon Lovett]

Prosecute him, which we found at the time to be ridiculous.

[Tommy Vitor]

There's so much about this in Jake Tapper's book that I can't talk about yet because there's still an embargo, but conversation for a month from now.

[Jon Favreau]

Yeah, exactly. All right, before we go, we're recording this on Easter Monday, less than a day after the passing of Pope Francis, Francis took a visit from JD Vance on Sunday morning. Talk about your last day. And apparently that was enough to put the ailing pontiff over the edge. After allowing himself to be photographed shaking Vance's hand, the Holy Father then blessed the crowd of tens of thousands in St. Peter's Square and had one of his deputies read what would be his final Easter address in which he implicitly blasted Vance and Trump, decrying, quote, how much contempt is stirred up at times towards the vulnerable, the marginalized and migrants, and saying, quote, I appeal to all Those in positions of political responsibility in our world not to yield to the logic of fear. He also reiterated calls for a ceasefire in Gaza and a return of all the hostages and for an end to the war in Ukraine. A day earlier, Vance had a longer meeting with the Pope's number two cardinal, and the Holy See's readout of that meeting mentioned, quote, an exchange of opinions on, quote, migrants, refugees and prisoners. That topic was not in J.D. vance's readout of the meeting. The Pope, in the past had called Trump's immigration policies, quote, a disgrace and not Christian legend. What did you guys think about the Vance interaction?

[Tommy Vitor]

We're all going to make the same joke because we deserve this, but there's got to be a little piece of him who thinks, could I kill him?

[Jon Favreau]

Right.

[Tommy Vitor]

Like, that would cross my mind.

[Jon Lovett]

I think any time spent with J.D. vance does kill the vibe. My mother went on, it was. We didn't call it this, but it was not to their faces. But it was a farewell tour to visit some of her oldest relatives before they died. And we had a great Uncle Jerry. And just before he died, my mother brought him a blueberry muffin, and he ate the whole thing. And he'd never been so happy. He was dead in 48 hours.

[Tommy Vitor]

Jesus Christ. Poor friend.

[Jon Favreau]

I will say I loved this pope. First Jesuit Pope. I remember when Benedict stepped down and Francis was picked, and I was like, a Jesuit from South America.

[Tommy Vitor]

I know.

[Jon Favreau]

Who was like, all about social justice. I'm like, is this real? Is the Church gonna make him now? Now that he's gonna be pope? Is he not gonna be like that? And he ended up being every bit the person he was when he was in South America.

[Jon Lovett]

Yeah, I'll always call him Ratzinger, but.

[Jon Favreau]

Yeah, after Ratzinger, yeah, he was a tough one. I'm just, like, very much hoping that we don't go back to that. And I don't know that anyone can fill the shoes of Pope Francis, but.

[Jon Lovett]

Still, we need a woke Pope. It's time for a woke Pope.

[Jon Favreau]

We also need one world leader, insulated from politics, who is willing to speak about compassion and empathy and justice in a way that, you know, J.D. vance's of the world and the right will probably shit on that person, but at least they can do so with some sense of moral authority.

[Tommy Vitor]

Yeah, look, I'm Episcopalian, so I'm a lazy Catholic. And I'll be honest, I don't. I don't love the Catholic Church as an institution. I don't feel like it's always been a force for good in this world, especially some of their social views. But I think, like, Benedict, Carl Ratzinger was like. He was kind of. He had that Opus DEI vibe. You know, that was when that Dan Brown book was really big.

[Jon Lovett]

He had those expensive red shoes.

[Tommy Vitor]

Right. He was, like, kind of scary guy. And then Francis came along, and a lot of what made people love him was his tone. You know, he couldn't fully moderate the church's anti LGBT views. Right. But he could be decent when he talked about them. As you mentioned, he cared about poverty, he cared about refugees, he cared about migration. He cared about climate change. He was a huge critic of all wars, including the war in Ukraine. He helped facilitate the Cuba normalization deal between the U.S. the Obama administration, and the Cuban government. So he used his office to bring about change and facilitate good works. And he was from the global south, and I think brought that perspective to the job of understanding the horrors of colonization. And when great powers act in ways that are brutal and selfish and, I don't know, it just. I think we will miss him on the global stage.

[Jon Favreau]

This guy, a guy who washed the feet of AIDS patients back when it was not a very popular thing to do.

[Jon Lovett]

Yeah. Like, there was that moment a couple weeks ago where JD Vance was talking about what the Golden Rule means and seems to have not fully understood it.

[Tommy Vitor]

No.

[Jon Lovett]

And there was again, I'm. I'm so Jewish. But there was always just something beautiful about a pope that even in an institution that, yes, does not acknowledge the rights of LGBT people, that does not allow women to be priests, that he gave voice to the beautiful parts of Christian values, like the parts that everyone ought to appreciate. And that is so absent from American politics so much of the time. There is such a vicious and cruel version of Christianity, represented to be the one true path. And then you had this pope, this undeniable Pope, Right. Moments before he dies, telling J.D. vance, in not so many words to fuck off before he dies.

[Jon Favreau]

But also, you know, the other thing he did was some people thought that he was gonna snub J.D. vance. That was the first thing. Cause J.D. vance got the number two the day before. And then. And Pope Francis was like, I will meet with him. It's the Vice President, United States. I will meet with him. I will criticize him to the people. But, like, because I show compassion to everyone, I'm also gonna meet the Vice President, which was nice.

[Jon Lovett]

Yes. And there's something that I think, like, our. You know, as we think about what it means to build a big Small D. Democratic movement. There's something beautiful in that. In that he. That what he is fighting for applies to everyone, even the people that disagree, even the people that are getting it wrong, even the people that are horrible, and that we are fighting for that here.

[Tommy Vitor]

Right?

[Jon Lovett]

We are fighting to build a democratic movement because we believe in democracy for everybody.

[Jon Favreau]

There's this some. I tweeted it so you can see it on X. But there's this beautiful video of a young kid. I don't know. He's like, five, six years old, eight years old. He had just, like, lost his father. And he was so nervous to ask Pope Francis a question. And he goes up to him, and Pope Francis was like, whispered in my ear. He whispers it in his ear. He goes and sits down. And the Pope said his father is an atheist. Even though he baptized his three children. He wants to know if his father's gonna go to heaven. And he gives this whole speech about how he's like, the God that I believe in has a father's heart. And a father's heart would never want to keep his children too far away. And it was like a really. Like. Because the Catholic Church I grew up in, you'd go to church and they'd. And, you know, like, my mother was Greek Orthodox. And they'd be like, if you are not Catholic, do not come up for Communion. Sit in the bench.

[Tommy Vitor]

I should just say Ratzinger's like, sorry, kid, he's burning.

[Jon Favreau]

No, it is. It's like that, you know, and it. Just. Being able to do that in an institution that's hard to change is laudable.

[Jon Lovett]

Remember when the Pope called gay people Fraguccinis, though? That was funny.

[Jon Favreau]

Fraguccinos.

[Jon Lovett]

Fraguccinos can't be said. Fraguccinis. I love everybody, even the Fraguccinis. And he's like, you can't say Fraguccinis. All right, I'm gonna say it one more time. Fraguccinis.

[Jon Favreau]

It was a real, real Bidenism.

[Jon Lovett]

It was awesome. It was awesome.

[Jon Favreau]

I will say next pope. You're right. We're gonna have all the speculation of who it may be. There's a lot of choices out there. There's one. Who is the. Who would be, like, the first Asian pope from the Philippines? And he spoke out a lot against Duterte.

[Tommy Vitor]

Probably doing horse race, right?

[Jon Favreau]

Yeah. And he would be like, where is.

[Jon Lovett]

He with the swing? Where's the swing, Cardinals?

[Jon Favreau]

Well, Tommy, I'm good. And so he's, like, the furthest left. I think you'd go. But then there's. The only one that really scares me is there's one from fucking Hungary who Orban likes and conservatives all like, and he thinks that they need to, like, pull back the whole church, so that would be cool. And then there's a bunch of other, like, sort of centrist, left of centers types.

[Jon Lovett]

Listen, it's all gonna come down to turnout. Conclave. Conclave. Best movie of last year.

[Jon Favreau]

I haven't seen it.

[Tommy Vitor]

I haven't seen it either. And I'm gonna watch it before this thing.

[Jon Favreau]

I'm gonna watch it.

[Tommy Vitor]

The real deal.

[Jon Favreau]

Like, Tommy's a very religious person. That's why I made him godfather to my child.

[Jon Lovett]

God and I, we're not the Hebrew fag Charlie's. I got a good Christian on that. Yeah, good religious.

[Jon Favreau]

He's got. He's got a Jewish. He's got a Jewish godmother.

[Jon Lovett]

That's true. When's the last time Tommy saw the inside of a Bible? Give me a break. Give me a break. You've been going a lot of Sunday mass. Who you seeing? They make a lot of friends at church. Give me a break.

[Tommy Vitor]

I'm glad you pivoted this. Back to you pontifex over here.

[Jon Lovett]

There's no Pope. I'm.

[Jon Favreau]

It's really beautiful. Okay, before we go, one quick housekeeping note. LGBTQ people are under attack, and this year, Pride is more than an excuse for Lovett to talk over us a lot in June.

[Tommy Vitor]

What a segue.

[Jon Favreau]

It's. It's life or death. Well, that didn't really come out as serious as it should have, so grab a join or die T shirt or sticker from the Crooked store. This design is a nod to the famous historical political cartoon, but we updated it to meet the moment and stand for LGBTQ resistance. Love it. Anything you want to add to that?

[Jon Lovett]

It's a great Zevi. Our designer did an amazing job. Listen, if you go to any government website, right now, they're trying to get the T separated from the LGB, and we got to make sure we keep the T's with the LGBTs, because otherwise they're gonna will be S out of L. You know what I mean?

[Jon Favreau]

That's a shirt.

[Jon Lovett]

Get that on a shirt.

[Jon Favreau]

And by the way, that reminds because Sarah McBride said this. Listen, if you haven't and you're like, oh, the Sunday interviews. Who knows? The Sunday interview with Sarah McBride was, like, maybe my favorite conversation I've had with a politician. And I can't remember how long both.

[Jon Lovett]

Of us were, like, really enjoying listening. I feel like there were several moments where either one of us could have cried.

[Jon Favreau]

It was seriously, I think I was just like staring at her at one point, just like, wow, this is an amazing. How do we have a politician like this? Anyway, check it out. That's our show for today. Dan and I will be back with a new show on Friday and we will be live from dc. If you want to listen to Pod Save America ad free or get access to our subscriber discord and exclusive podcasts, consider joining our Friends of the pod [e-mail] friends or subscribe on Apple Podcasts directly from the Pod Save America feed. Also, be sure to follow Pod Save America on TikTok, Instagram, Twitter, and YouTube for full episodes, bonus content, and more. And before you hit that next button, you can help boost this episode by leaving us a review and by sharing it with friends and family. Pod Save America is a crooked media production. Our producers are David Toledo and Saul Rubin. Our associate producer is Farah Safari. Reid Churlin is our executive editor and Adrian Hill is our executive producer. The show is mixed and edited by Andrew Chadwick. Jordan Kanter is our sound engineer, with audio support from Kyle Seglin and Charlotte Landis. Madeline Herringer is our head of news and programming. Matt de Groot is our head of product, Naomi Sengel is our executive assistant. Thanks to our digital team, Elijah Cohn, Hayley Jones, Ben Hethcote, Mia Kelman, Molly Lobel, Kiril Pelaviev, and David Toles, our production staff is proudly unionized with the Writers Guild of America East.