Jon Lovett (4:09)

Pride today to watch President Trump put Zelensky in his place.

Jon Favreau (4:15)

Instead of showing gratitude, he interrupted and berated his hosts.

Jon Lovett (4:18)

Am I embarrassed about Trump?

Jon Favreau (4:20)

I have never been more proud of the President.

Jon Lovett (4:22)

I was very proud of J.D.

Tommy Vietor (4:24)

Vance.

Jon Favreau (4:25)

It's going to be Putin and President Trump and the people on our side that will end up making this decision for the future of Ukraine. Look, this is one of the great.

Jon Lovett (4:34)

Moments in the history of American diplomacy.

Jon Favreau (4:37)

Jesus, these fucking that start and end with Stephen Miller.

Tommy Vietor (4:40)

I think we know it's swelled during that meeting.

Jon Favreau (4:42)

Stephen Miller, relax.

Jon Lovett (4:44)

These Real Housewives fucking Luann wasn't grateful enough for the invitation.

Tommy Vietor (4:50)

Also, Donald Trump didn't give Ukraine really any aid. And JD Vance voted against the supplemental spending bill for Ukraine aid. So who are we thanking exactly?

Jon Favreau (4:58)

I love Tommy Tuberville there. I'm assuming that was him who said, yeah, it's gonna be Trump, Putin and everyone on our side deciding. It's like, what? What are we? Our side, Tommy, now that you've had more time to process what happened on Friday. Do you have any other thoughts on the fallout and whether things have gotten better or worse since then?

Tommy Vietor (5:16)

Yeah. So I think the. In terms of Zelenskyy's efforts to get more support from the US or get some sort of security deal, you just mentioned a way where it got worse in the near term, because it sounds like they're freezing an additional. They're freezing some more money that could be transferred over to Ukraine in terms of weapons stockpiles. But the bigger picture problem that. That Zelenskyy has is that Trump and J.D. vance just want a deal, and they don't care about the substance of the deal. They don't care if the Russians end up occupying 20% of Ukrainian territory or. Or if Ukraine is told that they can't have a real armed forces going forward. So they're just kind of a sitting duck sitting there. Like, Trump just wants a win in the Western press. Now, from Europe's perspective, I think maybe the meeting was clarifying, and maybe that could help Zelenskyy, because, you know, now there's all these reports that France and the UK are trying to pull together a European peacekeeping group that will give Zelenskyy a security guarantee after there is a peace deal, and that's what he really wants. So I think, like, the challenge going that into that meeting now that I've thought about is the US Media tends to forget that all these foreign leaders who come in have their own political considerations. And for Zelensky, like, that meeting going really badly and getting in a fight was not good. But a worse outcome for him would have been getting bullied into taking a ceasefire deal that leaves them vulnerable going forward when Putin decides to break a ceasefire agreement that he cuts just to kind of make Trump happy. And so it's a bit of a mixed bag. I don't know. The hopeful version is maybe the Europeans will get their shit together finally and give Ukraine what they love it.

Jon Favreau (6:50)

What was your take on the meeting? There's been a lot of speculation that Trump and Vance plan to ambush Zelensky. Maggie Haberman and other journalists who cover the White House are reporting that the Trump people are saying it was spontaneous. What do you think?

Jon Lovett (7:04)

I have no idea. Like, part of this is just, like, none of this makes sense. Right? Like, none of the. None of, like, what they're saying aligns with what they're actually doing. Right. Like, I'm trying to, like, separate. The meeting is disgusting, right? Like, this is disgusting. This is a Guy flying from a war torn country. He basically saved his country in part by like sheer force of personality and personal bravery. He flies across the world to United States, our ally up until three months ago. Now he's trying to grovel for his country's life to sign a mineral deal. That, that also doesn't make any sense. That doesn't include any security guarantees. He's agreeing to do it because he's just trying to get through another day with Donald Trump. And J.D. vance, he's sitting there, he's getting questions about why he's not wearing a fucking suit.

Jon Favreau (7:45)

Marjorie Taylor Greene's boyfriend.

Tommy Vietor (7:47)

You see, Trump apparently said to the press, oh, this guy dressed up today. Yeah, just talking shit.

Jon Favreau (7:51)

That was before. That was before the meeting.

Jon Lovett (7:53)

And so like, he's an awaking nightmare. Like, the question I have is, okay, let's say all this played out behind the scenes, right? Like, not in front of the cameras. Like, take away the aesthetics of it. It's like, you know, in the morning, Marco Rubio thought signing this mineral deal and ostensibly becoming more entwined with Ukraine was a good idea. By the afternoon, it's no longer a good idea. And everything Trump is doing is making sense. There's all these sort of like post hoc rationalizations for Donald Trump. Like even in the days that have followed, like, you go, like, try to read about this meeting and it's people saying, is Trump abandoning the World War II order for spheres of influence? Like, no, he's just a careening asshole. And there's this whole intellectual framework, like, evolving around him to justify what he's saying. Like, even Vance, in the meeting, he says, we tried the pathway of Joe Biden of thumping our chest and pretending that the President of the United States words matter more than the President of the United States actions. And so therefore we're capitulating completely in our actions.

Jon Favreau (8:50)

Right.

Jon Lovett (8:50)

Like, why does what follows from there a kind of diplomacy in which the aggressor is ignored? Right? Like, let's say they do want peace, they do want to deal at all costs. Wouldn't that involve putting pressure on Vladimir Putin as well? Where is that? Like, you can't really make any sense around this because it's a bunch of people acting emotionally, trying to rationalize Donald Trump's various, like, ego driven, grievance driven, assumption driven foreign policy. And so like, we end up, like having these serious conversations about these, like, fundamentally despicable and on serious people. That was my reaction.

Jon Favreau (9:20)

Yeah. Like, I don't think it was an ambush or planned. I think what was planned is Both Trump and J.D. vance don't like or respect Zelensky that much because as Tommy said, they just wanted to get a deal. And I think they are just annoyed at the whole situation that they have to like go through all the motions here and they have to deal with him and treat him like he's an ally. Right. Or that, like he's an equal partner or even a partner at all. Like, I don't know if you. I'm sure you guys did this. I'm sure you did this, Tommy. Like, I went back to the transcript and read it like so many times to see where it went off the rails because it all like it was going fine and then it was at.

Tommy Vietor (9:57)

Times a little bit chummy, even little.

Jon Favreau (9:58)

Yes.

Jon Lovett (9:59)

They're joking about their disagreements.

Jon Favreau (10:01)

And it starts, the bad part, starts with the reporter asking Trump if he's too aligned with Putin, which is obviously a trigger for him. Right? Like that's, that's just going to set Trump off and like that couldn't be preplanned. Right. And then Trump says, oh, you see the hatred he's got for Putin, pointing to Zelensky. It's very tough for me to make a deal with that kind of hate. He's got tremendous hatred. So, like we start the meeting by Trump scolding the guy. Keep in mind, scolding the guy that he had just called a dictator twice over the past couple weeks. We're like complaining about Zelensky not saying thank you. And Trump has called this guy a dictator twice. So then he scolds him while he's sitting right there in the Oval Office for having too much hatred to do the deal. But then even Trump sort of like, you know, he's like, I just want to get a deal. I'm aligned with Europe. I just want to get something done. I got something. And the whole thing probably would have gone away then if fucking JD Vance didn't jump in after Trump finished his answer.

Tommy Vietor (10:51)

He was the chief arsonist.

Jon Favreau (10:52)

No one asked J.D. vance for a follow up answer on that. J.D. vance just jumped in after Trump went and did this whole thing where you said, where he also just gets the whole timeline wrong. He's like, Putin invaded Ukraine after Joe Biden, like just tried to talk tough and didn't engage in diplomacy. So Zelensky's like, well, that's not the timeline. Like, Zelensky's basically like, yeah, well, he's been trying to invade the country and he's been like at war with us since 2014. And then he also throws in, by the way, during the first answer. And God bless, now President Trump will stop him.

Tommy Vietor (11:22)

Right.

Jon Favreau (11:22)

Which was also nice.

Tommy Vietor (11:24)

I'd say, look, I respect Maggie's reporting, but there were at times where I felt like the headline was like, this wasn't an ambush. And then the substance of the story didn't back that up. For example, Lindsey Graham is running around telling everyone that he told Zelensky not to take Trump's bait. Well, if this wasn't a setup, then why would he be baited in the first place? And maybe that's an overly literal meeting, but like Trump's position is, you have to come into the Oval Office, you have to bow to my will. You cannot disagree with me even about points of fact. And that's just not tenable for the leader of a country fighting for its existence. And so, like, ambush. Not an ambush. It was designed for domestic political consumption. Like, J.D. vance's speech was his chance to finally talk in a big boy meeting and lead the headlines 41 days into the administration where Elon had been ahead of him every other day. And then Trump at the end says, well, I think it was good for the American people to hear all that. And this will make for good tv. And if you want to make this all a private discussion about the substance, don't have the fucking pool spray in there for 45 minutes.

Jon Lovett (12:23)

Yeah, there's one moment where Zelensky calls him J.D. and then J.D. calls him Mr. President. And so you feel like it's quite personal. But none of this should be personal, Right? It's not just about Trump calling him a dictator. The United States sided with Putin a week earlier at the U.N. like, these are supposed to be. It's all like vans and even Rubio. You go, look, we'll talk about Rubio more in a minute. But these guys are all like, the end of America's namby pamby. Soft, emotional foreign policy is over. We're doing hard nosed decisions based on pure rationality. And it's like, if that's the case, a fit of peak in a meeting shouldn't matter. It shouldn't matter at all. It's all. They are allowing this to be 100% personality driven.

Jon Favreau (13:13)

I liked that. I liked David Sanger's piece on this, which is he's basically arguing that the overall goal here is that Trump wants to normalize relations with Russia and Ukraine is standing in the way of that, Zelensky standing in the way of that. So with that larger context, any meeting wasn't like it could have gone better in terms of the theatrics of it, but like it was always going to be Trump being like, this guy is an impediment to normalization with Russia, which is what I want.

Tommy Vietor (13:38)

And it's like, why do we want to normalize things with Russia so much? It's like a, it's a, a, it's a broken economy. It's like a wartime economy. Now they just make artillery shells that they use to kill Ukrainians. But one sort of under discussed, bizarre part of Trump's rant because, you know, you also have to think about the original impeachment and how Zelensky was involved, right? Because Trump called Zelensky and was trying to held up military to Ukraine in order to get dirt on Joe Biden. But an under discussed, sort of part of when Trump gets really mad is he starts ranting about the Mueller investigation and he says, Putin went through a hell of a lot with me. And then he said, and it came out of Hunter Biden's bathroom like, so none of this made sense. But he was talking about how like he and Vlad endured something terrible together. Like somehow it was bad for Putin to have been perceived by the world as having handpicked the American president like their blood brothers.

Jon Lovett (14:26)

It's actually really, really strange. It's kind of like a Stockholm syndrome. Like, this is the thing. It's like usually, like, why would the US Want to normalize relationship with Russia? And again, this is why, like, this is. None of this makes sense. And like all these sort of pathetic weasels around Trump trying to make it make sense are obviously part of the problem. It's like, no, of course not. It's a fail. Failing Petro state. Well, right. That's like been depleted. It's like America is, it's so fucking pathetic that because of Donald Trump as a figure, a singular figure, we're now becoming a vassal state of this tiny, weak country. Because, like Donald Trump has these ego driven, like psychosexual personal issues with this one dictator who in his bones, he knows is so much tougher than him. And by the way, Zelensky too, right? Like, part of this resentment is that J.D. vance and Donald Trump know that like Zelensky is a stronger and tougher man than they are. And you can just feel the seething kind of like weakness of these two human beings in front of this actual leader.

Jon Favreau (15:22)

He also, when he gets mad, when Trump gets mad, he just has like conspiracy Tourette's and he just like goes through the. That's where. That's where that came from. Like where he just went down the road of, like, Putin. Russiagate. Hunter, laptop, bathroom video. Yeah, he was just. He doesn't know at that point.

Jon Lovett (15:39)

Yeah, he always got to the. What's the. What do you always call the FBI? People that were sleeping together.

Tommy Vietor (15:44)

Struck.

Jon Favreau (15:44)

Struck. And. Yeah, the lovers.

Jon Lovett (15:46)

He almost got to the lovers.

Jon Favreau (15:47)

Hunter Page and the lovers. Yeah. Adam. I'm surprised he didn't mention Adam Schiff.

Tommy Vietor (15:51)

And sir, do you know it was on Hunter's laptop. There's a lot of photos that you probably don't want to see.

Jon Lovett (15:55)

There were a few incursions on there, but I don't think it had anything to do with what we're talking about.

Jon Favreau (15:59)

Five more seconds. He would have gone there. He would have gone there. Pod Save America is brought to you by Zebiotics Pre Alcohol. Tommy Zebiotics.

Tommy Vietor (16:15)

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Jon Favreau (16:16)

I mean, don't drink without it. What more can we say to people on this one?

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Jon Favreau (16:23)

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Tommy Vietor (17:52)

Legitimate Ukrainian state that we have a relationship with.

Jon Favreau (17:55)

And I don't know why we can't.

Tommy Vietor (17:56)

Begin to openly say we will support.

Jon Favreau (17:58)

Them as long as they are willing.

Tommy Vietor (17:59)

To fight, even if it's an insurgency.

Jon Favreau (18:02)

Thoughts on Rubio?

Tommy Vietor (18:04)

I've noticed this in all of the photos of Rubio in the context of these U.S. russia talks. Like, there were a bunch of photos that came out of Saudi Arabia where there's like, like Rubio, Mike Waltz, Steve Witkoff are all there and there's like Sergey Lavrov and the Russian delegation. Rubio just has this thousand yard stare in all of them. And it like, I don't want to, you know, put him on the, on the psychiatrist couch, but I do think, like, you can tell he knows this is wrong because I do think it's fair to say, okay, after three years of the Biden policy, we got to a place where it was a permanent stalemate, kind of. And a stalemate is not a strategy. So let's now re emphasize diplomacy and try to end the war. But Rubio knows Zelenskyy's not a dictator and Putin is. He knows who started the war and who didn't. He knows that Zelenskyy can't hold an election right now because a huge chunk of the country is living under Russian occupation. Another big chunk has been displaced. Another big chunk is that the front line's fighting. Like, how are they gonna have people vote in free and fair elections in this context? And so he just looks like a guy who sold out all his beliefs to get the Secretary of State job and now is like living with the consequences and by the way, has no real power.

Jon Favreau (19:08)

Well, and that's what he, that's what he looks like in all these pictures. He does sound like he's trying to sell this new Marco Rubio and how he thinks. I think we have a clip of him. What he says now, what specifically do you want to see President Zelensky apologize for? Well, apologize for turning this thing into.

Jon Lovett (19:24)

The fiasco for him that it became.

Jon Favreau (19:26)

Is he found every opportunity to try to Ukraine splain on every issue. Maybe Zelensky doesn't want a peace deal. He says he does, but Maybe he doesn't Ukraine splain.

Jon Lovett (19:35)

The Ukraine split like, again, it's like, it's so emotional, right? Like, oh, he should have been more, he should have shown better manners. Like this fucking Emily Post bullshit. I went back and looked at Rubio's, the Senate confirmation speech that he gave and he says the post war global order is not just obsolete, is now a weapon being used against us. Right? And like, this is him again, like, trying to find a way to make sense of his involvement, Right? And like, I do think that, like, there is a critique of the way in which the Biden administration, like, didn't want to lose, but didn't want to win in a bunch of different ways all around the world. And by the way, like for decades about like an America that's just slowly watching China grow more and more powerful as we welcome them into the economic order, which are things that he talks about, right? But like the other side of that is meant to be a stronger us, right? Like a more like, like a more full throated, less morally relativistic defense of our values, of our principles. Right? Like some kind of a strategy. But, but then you, like, you look at what's happening, it's like we're capitulating to Russia and they're like, well, actually it's because, you know, we, we're not going to worry about what's happening over there. We're gonna worry about what's happening in our own backyard, okay? But we're also basically threatening Canada with invasion, threatening Panama with invasion, throwing tariffs on our neighbors. Like, there's no logic to any of this. And Rubio, because he is just the fucking world's biggest weasel, he's just trying to figure out what he can say day to day just to just say, get him into a, I guess a bet.

Jon Favreau (21:01)

So I kind of think that there might be a logic to it. Can I give you my.

Jon Lovett (21:06)

Sure.

Jon Favreau (21:06)

Like, I think that Trump, and look, I don't think this is like he has. Trump has planned out everything and has been really thinking deep about this and writing it in his memoirs. You know, I think he respects rich, powerful, ruthless leaders. And it seems like he wants to carve up the world with Putin and Xi. And maybe you got your Kim Jong Un's in there or your bbs, anyone with nuclear weapons, right? He knows that if you have nuclear weapons, then you're pretty powerful. And he knows they're bad guys. He knows they treat their people horribly. He doesn't really care about that. He likes the idea that he can Deal with a few what he views as tough leaders directly. He thinks he's a great negotiator. He doesn't like the idea of the UN and NATO and places where you have all these voices in some countries that he doesn't think should have a seat at the table, an equal seat at the table with everyone else because they're weaker than the other countries because that's too democratic. And he doesn't like democracy that much. And the idea of him, this is like when he always brags when like Xi came to Mar a Lago and you know, and then he gets to wine dynam and impress him and you know, I'm good with Putin and Kim Jong Un likes me. Like he, I think he loves a world where he can deal with a few tough bad guys. He's a good negotiator and he looks at and they do all want like client states. He sees like Putin, Putin wants Ukraine, Putin may want Eastern Europe. He sees Xi wants Taiwan and he's like, well, I better get some client states of my own. Maybe I'll go after Canada. Maybe I'll go up to Panama, Greenland. Like it feels like that's his, that's his vision of the world. I don't know, maybe I'm crazy.

Tommy Vietor (22:41)

I was trying to find this Elon Musk tweet and I was scrolling for like 25 minutes because, God, all he does is tweet. But he tweeted Zelensky wants a forever war, A never ending graft, meat grinder. This is evil. Like the way they talk about this guy. These are Zelensky's people getting killed. The Russians tried to murder him repeatedly in the early days of the war. They sent assassination teams to Zakiev to find the guy. And he survived through bravery, through really tough fighting by the Ukrainians in those early days. And it's just disgusting the way they talk about him. But to your point, John, I mean, like, I, I think there's some truth that look, between 50 and 85 million people died in the Second World War. So the United States was like, or the world came together. It was like, hey, maybe we should set up institutions to prevent this from happening again. That's why you have the UN that was designed to try to maintain global peace. That led to the creation of NATO, which was to counter Soviet expansion and you know, unchecked nationalism among some of the member states like Germany and always.

Jon Lovett (23:38)

Got to keep an eye on Germany.

Tommy Vietor (23:39)

You do. And both institutions have a lot of flaws. And we can talk about Those if you want, but there hasn't been a war between a NATO member and Russia since, and no NATO member has been invaded by another country. So it's been a pretty successful project. And I agree, it does seem like Trump wants to go back to a time where the great powers divide the world up and they bully people. And might is right. And I think the problem with that, There's a lot of problems with that logic. But what you're going to see is more militarism. You are going to see more nationalism, you're going to see more development of nuclear weapons as a deterrent, because if the US Nuclear umbrella is not going to protect us, like, guess it's time to make one of my own. And so it's gangster diplomacy. And you're already seeing Elon Musk tweeting about. He's talked about the spoils of battle when he's talking about Doge cuts. But I do think he's applying that more broadly in like, a really kind of, you know, old school, in a bad way way.

Jon Favreau (24:32)

This is how Trump operates domestically. This is how Trump has operated in business his whole life. Right? Like, it doesn't. You don't have to have some grand theory of international order to just view the world as he does, as, like, there's people I think are tough and powerful, and there's people I think are weak. And why should I give a shit about the weak people?

Jon Lovett (24:50)

I think what you were describing is, like, the end result of what happens when someone like Trump is just sort of emotionally, instinctively driven towards relationships with Russia and Putin, with. With Xi, that he, like, finds that easier and less of. Less of a headache. But, like, like, where are the iPhones from? You know, like, where are the chips from? Like, all of this is like, the idea is like, oh, you're just gonna carve up the world. There's stuff moving across those lines already, right? Like, the amount of chaos.

Jon Favreau (25:17)

Well, he's gonna be like, yeah, I can deal with shit directly. I'll keep the iPhones coming.

Jon Lovett (25:21)

Yeah, sure.

Jon Favreau (25:22)

Oh, I realize it's all bullshit, but I think he believes it. I think he has. In fact, it's a J.D. vance viewpoint. Like, I don't think it's just Trump. I actually think he now has an Elon and J.D. vance in. Like, I think he has a movement of people around him, and they're all, you know, they look to Orban, they look to Hungary, and they're like, this.

Jon Lovett (25:40)

Is the way I think they look. I think they see. I mean, just Take them at their word, like the UN World Trade Organization. Like, these are institutions that have become sclerotic. The same way they, and they don't see the benefits of, or. Or live in the kind of glib luxury of the security and stability these institutions provide while attacking what are genuine excesses and problems of working within those organizations. And rather than doing the hard, grinding work of reforming them, they want to burn them down. But we will live in the. In the dangerous kind of poor world that results when they're long gone. And Donald Trump doesn't know better, but Marco Rubio knows better because he used to know. He used to say it out loud.

Jon Favreau (26:19)

Oh, for sure.

Tommy Vietor (26:20)

One even, just even simpler explanation is Trump looks at a Russia or China and sees a kleptocracy. And there are people who think that Vladimir Putin's the richest person in the world because basically at one point along the way, he went to all the Russian oligarchs and says, now, you give me half or else you're falling out a very high window.

Jon Lovett (26:37)

But is he happy?

Tommy Vietor (26:38)

You can imagine a version of that where the state functions as just another means for Donald Trump to get paid. And we're already seeing some pieces of that.

Jon Favreau (26:48)

And again, yeah, I completely agree. And in his mind, it's like, and I deserve that because I'm the one running everything. And I got my other rich friend Putin over here, my other rich friend Xi, and they're tough guys, too. Look, how tough. How many times are you talking about how tough they are? But sometimes the way that I think the left has framed it is, oh, that Donald Trump is like a supplicant to these guys, or he's like a stooge for them. And I think Putin and Xi probably think that about Trump, but I think Trump thinks they're his buddies. They're all a bunch of tough guys standing across the globe together.

Jon Lovett (27:22)

Yeah. This is why it's like, look.

Jon Favreau (27:26)

The.

Jon Lovett (27:26)

U.S. sides with Russia at the UN against our ally. And how many people in the U.S. actually know about that? And how many people in the US Actually care about that?

Jon Favreau (27:37)

And by the way, notable that Orban and Bibi joined too, in the new club there in that vote.

Jon Lovett (27:44)

But I do think some of this is, I was thinking about this before we recorded. It's like, like the democratic legitimacy of these institutions. Right. Like were in the post World War II era came from Americans having a fear of the Soviet Union drilled into them by propaganda, but also the actual threat posed by the Soviet Union that people lived with every day and then the Cold War ends and we kind of just continue with these institutions, never really making a kind of coherent argument for them why they're important, why we're doing this, why we spend this money. Right? Like, kind of, we were resting on the kind of goodwill and legitimacy that came from generations before, and now Trump puts these things under attack. And in the same way we're told it's a trap to talk about why USAID is a good thing, we're now once again in the trap of trying to defend this order because it seems like what, what Trump and these guys are daring us to do is say, all right, fine, burn it down. We'll prove you right when everything is terrible.

Jon Favreau (28:41)

Yeah, we're just out in this, out in the streets, chanting, rules based order. Rules based order.

Tommy Vietor (28:46)

Yeah, I bet no one knows about the UN vote. I mean, look, the UN Security Council has been broken for a long time because the Russians and Chinese veto whatever they want and we veto any criticism Israel. And nothing gets done. Right. It's been that way for a decade. Plus. A UN General assembly vote is basically just kind of like a show of hands of what you believe. It's like a global roll call. And boy, did we show our hand in a new and scary way to the world. I do wonder if the Zelensky Trump meeting will break through and, I don't know, hit people differently.

Jon Lovett (29:15)

Like, I, I, they did say Slava, Ukraine at the Oscars, but for us, is that worth anything? No, nothing.

Tommy Vietor (29:22)

Bullying a man who's like, trying to rescue 19, 000 Ukrainian children who were stolen, kidnapped and taken to Russia, Like, I don't know, that's, that's pretty fucked up. That's dark stuff.

Jon Favreau (29:31)

I'm sure MAGA base thought it was awesome, right? Of course we know that. They've been saying that. I agree, Tommy. Like, I think I had some people text me who are not political junkies like us and are just like, that was so embarrassing. Awful, scary. What the fuck is happening?

Tommy Vietor (29:45)

You don't look tough. It's like a three on one fight. And it's not about sending weapons or spending more money. It's just about treating a man with decency whose country has been massacred. The casualty counts you see from the U.S. estimates are 70,000 Ukrainian soldiers killed, 100,000 wounded. The Russian casualties are double that. And so this war has been a catastrophe. I'm all for trying to end it, but we have to do it on terms that won't lead to a ceasefire that just reignites in a couple years when the Russians have had time to reconstitute their forces. And that's what Zelensky's worried about.

Jon Favreau (30:14)

Yep, that's right. All right. Turning to all the damage that Trump is doing here in America, the AP reported last week that the Social Security administration is preparing to lay off at least 7,000 people, close multiple field offices, and could get rid of up to half its workforce. Most of the agency's senior leadership is already gone. Martin O'Malley, the former Maryland governor who ran the Social Security administration under Biden, just told CNBC that with this level of cuts, quote, you're going to see the system collapse and an interruption of benefits within the next 30 to 90 days. People should start saving now. We also find out what Doge master Elon Musk thinks about the program during his latest Joe Rogan appearance last weekend. Well, I mean, the government's one big permit scheme, if you ask me.

Tommy Vietor (30:56)

Yeah, well, you can talk better than anything.

Jon Favreau (30:58)

Social Security is the biggest Ponzi scheme of all time. Seems like the task of making the 2026 campaign ads just got easier.

Jon Lovett (31:06)

It's also just like Social Security is a Ponzi scheme. It's just like late mid, like mid-90s Republican talking points is like where we're at. Like, it's actually a Ponzi scheme. The trust fund runs out in 2050. The trust fund's always running out.

Tommy Vietor (31:19)

Yeah, Elon sort of like always seems like partly aware of and on board with the Trump policy agenda. Like, no one in the White House wants him to call Social Security a Ponzi scheme because boy, does it then go. It's hard to pivot from that to fighting for a $5 trillion for the richest people in the country, which is their primary objective this year.

Jon Favreau (31:37)

I imagine they'll do whatever it takes to avoid Social Security benefit cuts because they know how unpopular it would be. But I also think they are some combo of idiots and liars all the time. So people do need to be on alert for any story about retirees who couldn't get their benefits on time because that's you lay off that many people at the Social Security administration, which I'm sure wasn't the model of efficiency before that.

Jon Lovett (32:00)

Yeah, yeah. You, those Social Security checks gets paused, you'll see a geezer insurrection that makes the fucking January 6th look like a PTA meeting.

Tommy Vietor (32:09)

Oh, remember under the Affordable Care Act, Obama used to say, if you like your plan, you can keep it. But then some plans were canceled because they didn't hit the mandatory requirements. Under the new ACA rules. And my wife's mother had a plan that got canceled and bought. I remember having that conversation with her. And she was able to get a new one. And it was fine. It was probably overall better. But that was not a small thing. That was not a blip in their feelings about the ACA or Barack Obama's standing for a little while.

Jon Favreau (32:42)

Yeah. And to that point, people aren't gonna. Even if they don't cut benefits, like, oh, we missed all the checks for Wisconsin this month.

Tommy Vietor (32:51)

Right. Oops.

Jon Favreau (32:51)

Or, sorry, everyone in Kansas, you're not getting, like, they. You do that for a month, it's mayhem.

Jon Lovett (32:57)

The. Yeah, the. Again, it's like I sound like a broken record. But, like, you know, before Social Security, the poorest people in the country were old people. And Social Security changed that forever. We live in a world that is different because Social Security lifted millions of people out of grinding poverty. And, like, you play with that for. You play with that for a week.

Jon Favreau (33:17)

And they.

Jon Lovett (33:17)

Showing people's ability to feed themselves, to take care of themselves, and they showed.

Jon Favreau (33:21)

Their gratitude by voting for Donald Trump.

Jon Lovett (33:23)

Yeah.

Jon Favreau (33:24)

At least the first time.

Tommy Vietor (33:25)

But, like, part of what you're making is just a basic government competence argument. And, you know, if suddenly a bunch of Social Security checks don't go out, that, like, shatters people's confidence in the US Government in a way that I think is really hard to recover from it. Like, again, Affordable care Act. The healthcare.gov rollout was more than just a website being broken for a while. It just fundamentally undercut people's faith in the administration to roll out and administer their health care, which is a very personal thing.

Jon Lovett (33:49)

Social Security field offices are not the driver of our national debt or deficit. These are tiny, tiny costs that provide basic services. It's all fake. It's all bullshit.

Jon Favreau (34:00)

We're gonna take a quick break, but one announcement before we do that. The first State of the Union address of Trump's second term.

Jon Lovett (34:06)

No, it's technically an address to a.

Jon Favreau (34:08)

Joint session of Congress, but whatever. It's tonight at 9pM Eastern.

Jon Lovett (34:14)

Things have grammar and stuff.

Jon Favreau (34:16)

6Pm Pacific. One hour before that at 8 Eastern. 5 Pacific. The three of us and Dan. Dan is back here again this week.

Jon Lovett (34:23)

We make Dan fly down all the time.

Jon Favreau (34:24)

We'll be live streaming a preview of the speech on the pod save America YouTube channel. We'll be talking about what we can expect from Trump and how Democrats should respond and talking to Democratic members who are there. We'll also be taking questions from Friends of the POD subscribers. It's going to be fun. It's going to be a great time. Then at 9 Eastern 6 Pacific, head over to the friends of the Pod Discord for subscriber only live chat where you can process this freak show in real time with people who get it. No deranged Facebook uncles. I don't know how we can promise that. No screaming into the void. Just a space to vent. Fact check. Remind each other that reality still matters. Wow.

Jon Lovett (34:56)

I know that's a lot to promise. It's gonna be some jokes about the speech.

Jon Favreau (34:59)

I did not write that you can tell to ask us questions during the live stream and for access to the Discord. Sign up for Friendsofthepod now@qriket.com friends it's the best way to support Crooked in everything we do POD Save America is brought to you by Lumen did you know that when your metabolism is working properly, you'll feel the benefits in literally every aspect of your life? Lumen is a valuable tool that can give you insights to create a healthy metabolism for your body. Lumen is the world's first handheld metabolic coach. It's a device that measures your metabolism through your breath, and on the app, it lets you know if you're burning fat or carbs and gives you tailored guidance to improve your nutrition, workout, sleep, and even stress management. All you have to do is breathe into your lumen first thing in the morning and you'll know what's going on with your metabolism whether you're burning mostly fats or carbs. Then Lumen gives you a personalized nutrition plan for that day based on your measurements. You can also breathe into it before and after workouts and meals so you know exactly what's going on in your body in real time. And Lumen will give you tips to keep you on top of your health game. Yeah, it's all the craze here at Crooked the Lumens.

Tommy Vietor (36:07)

Yeah, people are using it in the morning, at night, before workouts, after workouts to kind of do a little A B testing.

Jon Favreau (36:13)

Get yourself a personalized nutrition plan for the day. It's great because your metabolism is at the center of everything your body does. Optimal metabolic health translates to a bunch of benefits, including easier weight management, improved energy levels, better fitness results, better sleep, and more. Lumen gives you recommendations to improve your metabolic health. Take the next step to improving your health. Go to Lumen me crooked to get 20 off your lumen. That's L U M E n Me crooked for 20% off your purchase thank you, Lumen, for sponsoring this episode. So, same weekend, Elon called Social Security a Ponzi scheme. Trump announced a safer place to invest our tax dollars. Crypto. He posted that in order to, quote, make sure the US Is the crypto capital of the world, he's creating a crypto strategic reserve that would stockpile five cryptocurrencies. Xrp, Solano, Cardano, Bitcoin, and Ethereum. Don't even know what half those things are. Tommy, care to explain what this is all about?

Tommy Vietor (37:14)

So the, the initial tweet said the reserve would include xrp, Sol, and Ada. That's Ripple, Solana, and Cardano. And then he, quote, tweeted himself saying, of course it'll also include Bitcoin and Ethereum, and that will matter in a second. So this idea has been on, like, the top of the crypto bitcoin maximalist wish list for a long. Because if you own a lot of cryptocurrency early and then the US Government pumps a lot of money into it, your bitcoin is going to go up in price. The main elected official pushing this idea has been Cynthia Loomis, a senator from Wyoming, who I'm sure everyone here at.

Jon Favreau (37:46)

This table is very well aware of.

Tommy Vietor (37:48)

Cynthia Loomis, she introduced the Boosting Innovation, Technology Competitiveness through Optimized Investment nationwide, or Bitcoin. Bitcoin.

Jon Favreau (37:59)

I was trying to. I was trying to follow you, as you're saying. I'm like, oh, get it, get it.

Tommy Vietor (38:02)

Okay, so you put out the Bitcoin act, the NAMBLA act, as Levocald. At a conference in 2024 where Trump also spoke. Her bill is basically. She frames it as a way to bring down the debt, which makes no sense. But the gist of it is the US government buys a million bitcoins, which is about 5% of total supply of bitcoins, over a set period of time, using existing treasury funds. They say it will be paid for by these existing treasury funds because it's like accounting gimmicks to make it sound like it's cost free. But the money is fungible. So for spending US Government money on Bitcoin, you're not spending it on something else. So obviously it's not free.

Jon Lovett (38:33)

Well, it's only. It's only. And also, it's only fungible if you consider it like a stable asset, like the fucking dollar.

Tommy Vietor (38:38)

Right?

Jon Lovett (38:38)

But it's not. It's a. It's a. It's highly, highly volatile. It's buying stock. It's buying stocks.

Tommy Vietor (38:43)

Yeah. So the Reason I'm talking about this Loomis bill though is because there's no details of whatever Trump's plan is beyond these tweets. Except that the Loomis plan was just bitcoin, while Trump's plan included those other cryptocurrencies like Ripple and Cardano, which are why a lot of bitcoin advocates actually don't like what Trump rolled out. Because those other currencies are like jokes like no one uses Ripple, no one uses Cardano. Solana is like a platform through which you, you make other stuff off it, like meme coins. It's the idea that like, if you are a bitcoin maximalist and you believe that bitcoin is the new gold, okay, I guess you could argue for diversifying like our holdings of stuff, but like not for this other shit coins that no one ever uses. So the only argument for how those other currencies get into the mix here is because special interest lobbying and corruption and surprise, surprise, Trump had dinner with the CEO of Ripple in early January. He's now surrounded by these Silicon Valley guys with vested financial interests, like David Sacks, the Aizar. So crypto this, he tweets this out. Crypto prices spiked on Sunday about 10%. Now they're crashing down as we're recording this and I guess there's like a big White House crypto meeting on Friday. But like there's a good chance that this tweet was all it was and it was just a chance to pump and dump. If you're previously holding these shares because a bunch of crypto news sites reported on someone making a 50 times levered bet on Bitcoin and Ethereum on Saturday, only to cash it out for a $6.8 million profit on Sunday. So must be nice. What do you think, guys? Clean out Ford, Knox, Fill it with thumb drafts?

Jon Favreau (40:22)

Well, I was going to say, what are we, what are we stockpiling?

Jon Lovett (40:25)

Well, this is the thing that's so fucking stupid.

Jon Favreau (40:27)

It's not gold, it's not a. Like, what are we. It's not a. By the way, we're going to run out.

Jon Lovett (40:31)

Like, yeah, we have a strategic reserve.

Jon Favreau (40:34)

We're going to run out of the oil, we're going to run out of the fake money.

Jon Lovett (40:36)

Yeah, look, what if the government ran out of crypto? What happens? What happens? Nothing. Nothing happens.

Jon Favreau (40:42)

We have stockpile some grass.

Jon Lovett (40:43)

Yeah, it's the. Like, it's so outrageous on its face. Also, I know it's. I know it's almost quaint. Now, now, something that should probably take an act of fucking Congress.

Tommy Vietor (40:53)

I think it would require one. Yeah.

Jon Lovett (40:54)

And then, and, and like the, the even just the announcing of the specific currencies. Again, like if there was an actual serious, like a strategic crypto reserve is the dumbest fucking thing I've ever heard of. You know, it's not strategic, it's not a reserve. It's just a bank account that would be owning, that we just put, put US Dollars into. I guess hoping that. And then some of. One of the other rationales you'll hear is like, well, it will benefit taxpayers because taxpayers would then own a share of, of, of cryptocurrency as it rises. And like, you know, I like hate to be a small c conservative here. There's a great way for taxpayers to benefit from cryptocurrency if they'd like. They can buy cryptocurrency with their own fucking dollars.

Tommy Vietor (41:29)

Yeah, exactly.

Jon Favreau (41:30)

Take the money and treasury that you're going to put in the, in the reserve and hand out some tax cuts. I don't know.

Jon Lovett (41:35)

No, I don't want a sovereign wealth fund.

Jon Favreau (41:37)

I don't want any of those certificate.

Jon Lovett (41:38)

Yeah, yeah, give everybody a gift card. Buy what a crypto you want.

Tommy Vietor (41:42)

There's also no guarantee that, that bitcoin price will rise. Like if it was guaranteed to rise, then like the way markets work is it would already be priced at that level. Right. Because that's how guarantees work. I mean, so none of this makes sense. You could come along, create a new cryptocurrency that, that displaces bitcoin. All of our holdings go to zero. Also the, the U.S. government holding a ton of cryptocurrency or bitcoin is completely antithetical to like the libertarian anti government roots of these cryptocurrencies.

Jon Favreau (42:08)

Yeah, I thought the whole reason we're doing crypto and the blockchain is because we don't, we don't trust central governments and banks around the world and we want like, what was that whole thing?

Jon Lovett (42:17)

And also, also if the US government suddenly has massive holdings of bitcoins, that's stuck because if the US announces that we're selling off our bitcoins, suddenly the price of bitcoins will fucking plummet. Some of these currencies that Trump is talking about buying, if the US has any meaningful stake in it, we own a huge share of the global supply of these, of these coins. You know, like with these Trump meme coins. Right. All these people that put money it, they can only get that money out if Somebody's willing to buy it at that price. Now, Trump makes money on the transaction fees, and if you want, you could probably, you know, show your crypto wallet to Trump and say, look, I'm on all your fucking coins, you know, just to get a great deal out of it. But, like, so what this is, is like this first. It's like so many. There's like, so many. It's like a Russian nesting doll of corruption. Trump made this. Trump has these allies who are in the crypto business. He's doing a huge favor for them. Trump himself is making a ton of money off of crypto. Right. And so he wants to have crypto succeed. And on top of all of that, you have this now, this. This legitimated scheme where foreign leaders and governments and anybody who wants a government contract can basically put money virtually directly into Donald Trump's pocket. It's untraceable, but you can still show him. You can prove it to him.

Jon Favreau (43:31)

Do you think after Trump and Elon and the Doge boys go to Fort Knox to check out the gold, they'll check out the. It feels like the Doge should kind of check out the crypto reserve, if that ever gets off the ground.

Jon Lovett (43:43)

The.

Tommy Vietor (43:44)

The Fort Knox.

Jon Favreau (43:44)

That's a good place for Doge.

Tommy Vietor (43:45)

I don't know where this came from.

Jon Lovett (43:46)

Well, now I'm starting to understand where it's coming from, because basically they're trying to equate having a holding, like a reserve of crypto to having a reserve of gold, and they're trying to make the argument that gold is somehow just as insecure or dangerous or a risky asset to hold as these digital mining bucks.

Jon Favreau (44:04)

Yeah, don't. Don't trust anything except that which makes us money.

Tommy Vietor (44:08)

To your point, like, a strategic oil reserve makes sense, because you're going to need to use oil like gold. You can make a similar argument resource. You could make the argument with, with crypto that you could make with gold. Like, look, in a pinch, we can't eat gold.

Jon Lovett (44:19)

Right.

Tommy Vietor (44:19)

It's only as value, because for thousands of years, it has that value. But Bitcoin's been around for, like, 15 years. It could just disappear and no one would know.

Jon Lovett (44:25)

Yeah, like, I don't care about the gold at Fort Knox, but I look like the. It's not like you have oil because in an emergency, if suddenly oil supplies are cut off by our adversaries or there's a pressure or whatever, you need oil to have the economy function other than a strategic helium reserve, because it's fun to Use at parties. But like, there's lots of. But like you have a reserve of something that you need in an emergency.

Tommy Vietor (44:46)

Right. And it doesn't. Crypto is not what you need. Also, long term cryptocurrency will undercut the use of the dollar as the world's reserve currency, which, long story short, gives us a ton of power and influence. And on the corruption part, I mean, I had this really smart reporter on, named Zeke fox on the February 26 episode of Pod Save the World. And I called him today, just like, check back in on this. There's this guy named Justin sun who is a. You heard of him?

Jon Lovett (45:09)

Yeah.

Tommy Vietor (45:09)

Chinese crypto entrepreneur. He bought $75 million worth of Trump's World Liberty financial tokens. This is a certain crypto asset where the Trump family gets 75% of the profits from that coin. So there's a. Right off the top, he just gets a rip of 75%. The SEC just paused its case against Justin Sun. They're investigating him for basically fraud.

Jon Lovett (45:32)

Yeah, if you go to.

Jon Favreau (45:33)

If you go to the world, woken up one day and decided they didn't have a case.

Jon Lovett (45:37)

If you go to the World Liberty website, it's just Donald Trump on the front. He is. He is called their chief crypto advocate. His sons are ambassadors in other fake roles. By the way, the SEC also paused a lawsuit against Binance. It stopped an enforcement action against Coinbase. They are stopping the SEC's crackdown that was led by Gary Gensler under the Biden administration. So basically, they are removing any breaks, they're removing any guardrails, any transparency. They're going to make this, make it basically impossible to detect fraud, to detect corruption. Like. That is the plan. That is the plan.

Jon Favreau (46:11)

Just, you know, they're just bringing more efficiency to government.

Tommy Vietor (46:13)

Oh, did you see Eric Trump tweeted by the Dip on Tuesday and this announcement happened Sunday. I wonder if he was in a position to know something about the bitcoin price.

Jon Favreau (46:22)

Can we talk about Doge, please?

Tommy Vietor (46:24)

I'd love to hear about Doge.

Jon Favreau (46:25)

They're not batting a thousand these days. The Times has a truly humiliating story about Doge taking credit for saving $53 million, supposedly by ending a Coast Guard contract that lapsed 20 years ago and was only ever worth $144,000.

Jon Lovett (46:42)

Yeah, cry me a river.

Jon Favreau (46:44)

Tons of examples like that Justin Timberlake song for genre.

Tommy Vietor (46:49)

Okay.

Jon Lovett (46:53)

Go on.

Jon Favreau (46:53)

There's a lot of examples like that. They're just all over the place, some of them. They're correcting their mistakes, but they Keep mistaking millions for billions. They're saying billions when they're actually cutting millions. It's a mess.

Tommy Vietor (47:03)

Yeah. They claim to have saved $8 billion on a DEI program for ICE when in fact it was an $8 million program.

Jon Favreau (47:09)

Yes. So this is what's happening there. We also got word that Trump fired one of the last remaining career officials at usaid, Nicholas Enrich, who just wrote a series of memos to sound the alarm that despite Marco Rubio's promise to unfreeze all life saving humanitarian assistance, the agency was, quote, never actually given the opportunity to implement life saving humanitarian assistance. Thanks to DOGE canceling contracts, blocking payment systems, and just putting a bunch of obstacles in the way of, of getting the money out the door. Enrich projected another 166,000 deaths per year from malaria, another 200,000 children per year paralyzed with polio, more than 28,000 new cases of deadly diseases like Ebola and Marburg each year, and another million children per year who won't be treated for severe acute malnutrition, which often kills them. So on this last point, I saw this CNN story over the weekend about this company in Georgia. What they do is they make this peanut paste and they give this peanut full of vitamins and nutrients and they basically give this little packet to a child who's suffering from severe acute malnutrition and they can survive. It's this miracle thing. USAID has been handing it out for years and years and years. The company that produces this had like enough peanut paste for 400,000 kids to save. 400,000 kids ready to go right on it. They said, like from the American people, usaid all in these packets ready to go. The United States government had already purchased them. $10 million we already paid for this. And was informed by Doge that the contract was canceled. And the guy's like, I have all this peanut paste now that's just gonna go to waste. I can't send it anywhere cause it's got USAID all over it. They told me not to do it and that's it. So now all these kids aren't gonna get the life saving nutrition. So I see this thing, I get really annoyed. I tweet about it and I was like, I tweet about Elon doing this with not even saving us money, just like not sending this stuff out. We already paid for it.

Jon Lovett (49:14)

It's Saturday night.

Jon Favreau (49:15)

It's Saturday night. Yeah, it was right before I saw you on Saturday night. And I was on the way, I tweeted and then I got home and I'm in bed. And I was like, oh, oh.

Tommy Vietor (49:25)

He responded, my phone wasn't blowing up that night. I was home alone.

Jon Favreau (49:28)

You were home alone? You were home alone. And so Elon responded, and he called me Dollar Store John Favreau and said, I'm an imbecilic propagandist who lies to score cheap political points. And then he said that. Said, I will investigate this.

Tommy Vietor (49:45)

So he's got you dead to rights. He's not gonna do it anyway.

Jon Lovett (49:48)

He's still figuring out the comment card thing.

Jon Favreau (49:51)

He's like, and we'll fix it if so. And so then the next. So I decide, you know, it's late at night, had a few drinks. I'm not gonna reply now. So I just went to bed. Good. That was smart, right? Woke up in the morning. He has replied again. And he was like, the contract has been reinstated. It was already reinstated last week. They should get the payment soon. And he's like. And then he lists the company. I'm like, what company is that? It's another peanut paste company in Rhode island that. He had also canceled the contract to it. And so I wrote back to him, like. Like, actually, that's great. But the company was in Georgia. It was cnn. It was this company. And then. And then later Sunday night, MJ Lee at cnn, who broke the original story about the Georgia company was like, I just got a call from the guy in the Georgia company, and he said it was. The contract was reinstated just minutes ago. So then. So this morning, Elon was like. He replies to me again. And he was like, like. So. Just so you know, it wasn't because of the legacy media or. Or Kmart favs.

Jon Lovett (50:52)

He got upgraded.

Jon Favreau (50:53)

He upgraded me.

Tommy Vietor (50:53)

Is Kmart better than Dollar Store?

Jon Lovett (50:55)

Yeah.

Jon Favreau (50:55)

Yeah. Well, I had said that I would at least want to be Target John Favre when I reply to him, because I thought I would, you know, so.

Jon Lovett (51:00)

Now it's like a will there, won't I thing with these.

Jon Favreau (51:02)

I was trying to be constructive.

Jon Lovett (51:03)

Sounds basically vaguely for T. How do.

Tommy Vietor (51:04)

You tweet this much from a K hole?

Jon Favreau (51:06)

I know. Yeah, exactly. And. And he was like, it wasn't that. It was just. We just needed a brief pause and no one has died yet. And what I said in the Oval about Ebola protection was right. That it was. It is turned back on, and it just takes a while for the money to go through all the systems and blah, blah, blah. Meanwhile, as he's tweeting this, I'm looking at this guy from USAID who just left and right in a memo like, no, Rubio gave all these waivers to the life saving assistance and none of them could be implemented.

Jon Lovett (51:33)

Yeah, no one has died. Is like not the defense you like, if you're out there being like, I wanna reassure everyone, no one has yet died.

Tommy Vietor (51:42)

As far as I know.

Jon Lovett (51:42)

As far as I know. You know, like, first of all, great. First of all, great posting, by the way. Great posting.

Jon Favreau (51:48)

My New Year's resolution really coming in.

Tommy Vietor (51:50)

Remember when you and I were like.

Jon Lovett (51:52)

When he said his resolution was to post more and we like scoffed because, like, why, what's the point? Paid for itself.

Tommy Vietor (51:58)

I mean, good for you. Also, I've been pivoting to TikTok because I'm just trying to reach people where they're at. I'm doing a late mid-40s TikTok. I'm back to serious.

Jon Lovett (52:07)

Don't let anyone tell you it's not going great.

Tommy Vietor (52:09)

It's going great. It's going great.

Jon Favreau (52:11)

43 is the year of vertical video. But like, I know, I know. I was trying to be nice.

Jon Lovett (52:18)

Wow. I thought we were in the same generation, but the Gen X were over here. But like we go back to Elon in the cabinet meeting where he was, where he spoke to the Cabinet before anyone else got a chance to speak and he said, you know, I'm really support, you know, I'm here to support you, but the reason we're doing this is because we're in an emergency and we have to cut. If we want to hit my goal of 1point x trillion dollars of cuts, we've got to cut $4 billion a day. That's the only way to do it. You got to cut $4 billion a day. And all of this is just exposing how that is stupid at every level. First of all, actually, you don't have to cut $4 billion a day. You don't have to scramble through the agencies finding little bits to cut every day. If you have a goal for a giant budget cut you want to make, you can propose it through Congress and you can do it. And, and by the way, go even one step further. Let's say you don't want to do it that way. You just said you, you have all these cabinet secretaries. Go to the cabinet secretaries and say, I need this, I need a proposal for this many cuts by this date. And I know it's going to be hard and I'm going to be driving you guys every day and I'm going to be meeting with you, but you tell me what we can cut. But no one fucking adult tech bro cannot oversee these cuts across every layer of our government. It's going to lead to kids dying.

Jon Favreau (53:33)

Well, and this. You know, I had a friend ask me reading about all this, and he was like, well, but he's like, no, isn't it possible that there is a lot of waste that we can get rid of there and that we also want to send out life saving assistance? Like, why isn't both right? And I'm like, here's. If they wanted to do that, they could have audited usaid. They could have used their, the authority that they have to trim where they could. And they could have then sent Congress a list, which they control, a list of cuts, a list of layoffs that they wanted to do. They could have done all that if the whole thing was about efficiency. I mean, Pete Hegseth, remember when he got to the Defense Department was like, I want to cut the workforce by 8% at the department, so send me ideas for this by whatever. I'm not saying that Pete's egg says, strategic. I love pizza.

Jon Lovett (54:19)

Why can't he fire the body of a leader?

Jon Favreau (54:20)

Like, I saw that and I was like, well, if you want to cut your agency, that's one way to do it. Just like put out a goal. What they have done, this is not what they were doing at USAID.

Tommy Vietor (54:29)

Just, would you say 200,000 more kids getting polio? Yeah, I mean, look, we eradicated smallpox off the face of the earth. Like, the next goal was to eradicate polio. And I think it was only found in Afghanistan and Pakistan. The fact that it's now going to resurge because of these cuts, like, Jesus Christ, what a hit to humanity. On the USA ad money generally, I do think people are going to die. There are going to be refugee camps in Sudan where they're going to run out of food. Babies are going to die. There's going to be people. We've been giving AIDS medicines under the PEPFAR program that'll be gone in months. Now there's going to be. I personally think that that is cruel and morally wrong and damaging to our standing in the world in the long term as a nation. But let's say your view on this is the United States can't feed every starving person anywhere, everywhere, and we can't be the world's policeman. Then you say to them, okay, what about programs that help people that we actively harmed as a nation? Right. Early on in this process, we talked about the freeze on foreign aid, stopping programs that Clean up unexploded bombs that the United States dropped on Vietnam and Laos and Cambodia. If we don't clean those up, little kids pick them up, their arms get blown off, they get killed, they're going to die. The New York Times recently had a story about a Doge cut. That cut off funding to a program that provides the most meager amount of support to people who are severely disabled because of Agent Orange. Because the United States dropped Agent Orange on their villages during the Vietnam War. And then people who lived there had kids with these severe disabilities. Now we're cutting off loans to these people. Like, that's the reality of what's happening.

Jon Favreau (56:01)

It's like, you know what? We are the richest country on earth in the history of the earth, and we are not. Elon Musk is worth $400 billion. Okay? This is not like, hey, middle class family in Ohio, we're gonna. We gotta raise your taxes to help feed starving people in some other country. Like, we have billionaires running all over this country and we're talking about 25 cent fucking peanut packets and malaria nets and HIV medication, which is now pretty cheap now that we've had it for, like, what are we talking about right now? We can't fucking afford this.

Jon Lovett (56:36)

And by the way, the end result of this is not reducing the deficit by whatever trillion dollar goal Elon has set. They want to take that money, they want to put 100 billion of it into a crypto reserve and they want to take the rest and they want to divvy it out to Elon Musk and all these people through a gigantic tax cut for the rich. And by the way, all the cuts Elon was making would never, even if he were to hit his goals, which he can't, because he's doing this in such a chaotic and terrible way, even if he did, it would be obliterated by the cost of the tax cuts, which is why they have to go even further and look to cut Medicaid or look to cut Social Security or whatever they're gonna do to try to pay for these giant tax cuts. So none of this results in any kind of tangible benefit for actual American citizens. Right? Like, and by the way, none of this was part of like, this was not the core of their campaign. They campaigned to lower the cost of goods. We are getting a dismantling of the federal government.

Tommy Vietor (57:29)

Foreign.

Jon Favreau (57:34)

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Jon Favreau (59:34)

Trump said late Monday, which is when we're recording this, that a 25% tariff on all Mexican and Canadian goods and an additional 10% tariff on all Chinese goods will go into effect on Tuesday. He backed off these tariffs tariffs at the last minute once before, so who knows if he'll do it again. Who knows why he changed his mind, but either way, stock market had the worst day of the year on Monday and a lot of shit is about to get very expensive. Unless of course you're listening to this Tuesday morning and he backed off last minute again. According to Bloomberg, for example, car prices alone would increase by $12,000 if the tariffs go through at the levels Trump is promising this Comes at. The Federal Reserve bank of Atlanta's estimate now predicts the economy to shrink by 2.8% this quarter. And a wave of new polling from CBS Marist CNN shows that people think that Trump is not doing enough to focus on the economy and inflation. His approval rating keeps dropping, but the weakest spot is economy and inflation, which is ironic because those used to be his strongest issues. It sure seems like a lot of flashing red lights for the Trump administration that they're just ignoring. Do you think they don't know, don't care? Do you think they think it's just temporary? What do you guys.

Tommy Vietor (60:43)

I mean, this is what they want to do. That's just theory of the case. This is economic vision, as you throw up all these tariffs and somehow that will ultimately rebuild domestic manufacturing or our ability to produce goods, but just feels very unlikely. And, you know, we're going to put in place these tariffs on Canada and Mexico, and they're going to retaliate. Like, the Canadians have talked about 25% tariffs on $30 billion worth of goods, of U.S. products, and then that might expand to 85 billion more. And they're talking about ag products, consumer goods, liquor. I think they're targeting Republican districts. So, like, bourbon appliances. And in Mexico has not been public about their retaliations, but they're preparing them. And so you made the point, like, the auto sectors are so entwined between the US And Canada and Mexico, and I don't know how that's going to work. Mexico and Canada account for 70% of U.S. crude oil imports, so gas prices could go up. And also we're talking about trade agreements that, like, Jared Kushner negotiated. The USMCA was the updated NAFTA that Trump. Trump was one of the things Trump talked about as a primary accomplishment in the first term.

Jon Lovett (61:46)

Yeah. And there was a. When he was first talking about the terrorists a couple weeks ago, he said, I look at these deals, and I'm like, who negotiated these deals? You did. These are your deals. These are your deals.

Jon Favreau (61:54)

He wants to squeeze our allies. He wants to squeeze them and get a better deal out of them and just keep squeezing them and squeezing them until they become the 51st, 52nd, 53rd, 54th state. I really think that this is part of it.

Jon Lovett (62:06)

I'm sure that's right. Yeah.

Jon Favreau (62:07)

He wants an economic war against Canada to just beat them into submission. And he's stupid because, like you said, it's gonna hurt us.

Tommy Vietor (62:15)

Well, also, so far, it's backfiring. I mean, his ostensible political Allies are the Conservative parties up there. This guy, Pierre Poliev, and he still might be the next Canadian Prime Minister. But Justin Trudeau's polling was, like, rock bottom. He stepped back. They did this thing where they. It's called pro roguing Parliament, where basically the Liberal Party's now gonna figure out its new leader, and that person will then become the prime minister when they go back into session in, like, a couple weeks. And the Liberal Party's polling numbers, because of Trump's attacks have gone way back up.

Jon Favreau (62:45)

Yeah, like, they're.

Tommy Vietor (62:46)

He is rallying support, and you're seeing Canadians booing the national anthem and all this sort of Canadian nationalism, and it's just. It's not working.

Jon Favreau (62:54)

He might. He might be. You know, Trump might lead to a resurgence of the center left all over the world. Except. Except here, I guess that'd be cool.

Jon Lovett (63:00)

Yeah. Well, here we've already been sort of beaten to a bloody pulpit. The. Yeah. I was thinking about just sort of Trump as this negotiator. Right. And it's kind of an old saw at this point that he'd be richer today if he had just taken his inheritance and put it in the S and P. Right. Because he's just not a very good businessman. And you kind of see in how he is president why he was such a bad businessman, which is he just. He can't think long term, he can't think strategically. And so, like, very short term, you look at, like, tariffs, and you say, all right, your goal was to build up domestic manufacturing, and you want. Tariffs are one lever in doing that, right? Well, some of the things you're tariffing, it would take a decade to build a steel plant. Right? Take a decade to improve our capacity in whatever it might be, refining oil, whatever. Putting on the tariff doesn't result in that at all. We're actually completely dependent on Canada and Mexico for a lot of parts, a lot of supplies, a lot of materials. All of this is. So it's just not. It's a strategic. It's just a guy who had an idea about what makes an economy. Okay. You put on the tariffs, the manufacturing comes back, and maybe there's some deep, some like, very raw sense in which that's on some level, true. But in the meantime, there's just a decade of pain, of economic stagnation. And then the question is, if that does come right, like, you know, we're gonna talk about the Democrats, and I believe that's how you pronounce it. But what happens when we move from things could get really bad to. Things are really bad and right. Like, how does that change Trump and then how does that change how the American people feel about our response?

Jon Favreau (64:34)

Well, Democrats are continuing to workshop their response strategy in public, as we like to do.

Jon Lovett (64:41)

Great.

Jon Favreau (64:41)

One spicy take on this came last week from the raging Cajun himself, James Carville, who wrote in a New York Times op ed, quote, with no clear leader to voice our opposition and no control in any branch of government, it's time for Democrats to embark on the most daring political maneuver in the history of our party. Roll over and play dead. Allow the Republicans to crumble beneath their own weight and make the American people miss us. Unsurprisingly, actual elected Democrats have thoughts on this. Here's Bernie Sanders on Meet the Press this Sunday. The problem is the Democrats have been playing dead for too many years. I don't think you play dead. I think you stand up for the working, working class in this country and make the point. 13 of the people that he nominated to head agencies are billionaires. Their greed is uncontrollable. We've got to fight back. That's what these trips to Wisconsin and Michigan will be about. Just right down the middle for Bernie Sanders.

Jon Lovett (65:35)

Yeah, she's sort of like, oh, what a question. Should Democrats fight or give up? Bernie, what do you think your take.

Jon Favreau (65:45)

What do you guys think about Carville's prescription?

Jon Lovett (65:47)

So, first of all, so when I was reading it, I sort of, like, asked myself a question before I got to the answer. And the question was, does a strategic retreat mean we help them fund the government, or does strategic retreat mean we don't help them fund the government?

Tommy Vietor (66:03)

That's a good question.

Jon Lovett (66:04)

And then you kind of get to it. He says, like, actually we should hang back for a while. It's not totally clear, but kind of come in at the last minute when they've already shown themselves to be terrible and failures and chaotic, and then come into the last second and say what we stand for and help reopen the government, for example. And sort of it gets, I think the problem here, which is, I think when you talk about, like, should the Democrats fight or should they retreat in an abstraction, like, I don't really know how you, like, act on this. Right. Like, he's doing terrible things. Should Chris Murphy not go to the floor and talk about them?

Tommy Vietor (66:32)

Yeah.

Jon Lovett (66:32)

Like, should be like, like, I have no, I have no comment on the dismantling of NATO today. Like, that's just not how it works.

Tommy Vietor (66:37)

So I don't tape your mouth and.

Jon Favreau (66:39)

I don't think that's what James meant.

Jon Lovett (66:40)

No, of course. And so like, what I took it to mean is like kind of sensationalistic way of saying Democrats have to be strategic. But like, all in all, where I land after reading it, it's like, I don't, I don't know what we get by hanging back. It's not like we get credits later when we speak more forcefully for the Times. We were quiet earlier on.

Jon Favreau (66:57)

Yeah.

Tommy Vietor (66:57)

I just think, like, Trump is the most relentless messenger in the history of politics and I think we can't let him talk in a vacuum or else, like, he's going to pin every failure on Democrats and some not insignificant part of the electorate will think that egg prices are high because of Gaza protesters at Barnard. You know what I mean?

Jon Lovett (67:14)

And so, and that's not true.

Tommy Vietor (67:15)

And that as far as I know, that is not true.

Jon Lovett (67:17)

It's the Jews, and I do think just the Jews.

Tommy Vietor (67:20)

I think you're right. Love it, like it's smarter to talk about these fights around a specific thing like the budget. But I do think we have an opportunity there to drive a message that's really strong, which is that Donald Trump is allowing this unelected, unwell billionaire to break the US Government so that you could pretend it's going to save enough money to pay for a $5 trillion tax cut for the richest people in the country. I think that's a good story. We have a good villain in Elon Musk, but we're not going to win this fight with like op EDS and, you know, MSNBC hits gonna be a volume game on social media platforms and local press. But I do think, like part of.

Jon Lovett (67:56)

This, like, has been seeing us on Chris Hayes lately, I guess, and the points we're making there.

Tommy Vietor (68:01)

But like, I do think we have to have, like, like we have to have a motivation, we have to have a story with an enemy and we have to have an alternative.

Jon Favreau (68:07)

Yes.

Tommy Vietor (68:08)

You know what I mean?

Jon Favreau (68:08)

That's what, let's get to that the altern. There is a long tradition in politics and I think this is both parties do this, which is like when you know your opposition is fucking up, you just stand back and if you put out an alternative, then the opposition, you know, then the other party is just going to start taking shots at your alternative and then people aren't going to like your alternative and blah, blah, blah, and why don't, why don't you just stand back? And I get the reasoning behind that. But I also think that we are at a moment now where people are so cynical about politics, tired, beat down, and unimpressed with the Democratic Party. To say it nicely, like, we have, the party has one of the worst approval ratings it's had ever. And I think it is incumbent upon Democrats right now more than ever to, like, offer a vision, offer an alternative, say what we would do differently. I don't think we need to, like, you know, have a blizzard of policy plans out there at all. But I think we need to, as we critique Trump, like, lay out how we would govern differently, how we treat people differently, what our vision of the country looks like, what our vision of the world looks like. Like, I don't know. I mean, look, we've tried. Well, we're not Trump and we're not MAGA a couple times now. It didn't work in 2016. It barely worked in 2020. It didn't work in 2024. It might work in 2026 because it's a midterm electorate. But, like, we gotta think about 2028 here. And we also gotta think about just expanding the map in general, because we're never gonna win this, like, going the way we are. We're not gonna control the Senate with the states we have. The Electoral College could shift, and we're gonna need to, like, pick up more states. And, like, we're just gonna have to compete in tough places, which means you're going to have to give people an alternative.

Jon Lovett (69:45)

Yeah, I mean, Trump, like, before the election, Trump went to New York and said, I'm gonna win New York. And obviously that was ridiculous, but you had a Republican politician saying, I can foresee a day where we win in this state. Right. And, like, it's similar, honestly, to, like, the kind of managed decline globally. It's like, there's sort of like, a managed decline to the Democratic brand. Like, oh, we just. We'll. We can't win in a state like Wyoming. We can't win in a state like Nebraska, even though in those states, minimum wage bills, union bills, marijuana bills, abortion bills, they pass. Right. And so that tells you that there's this big delta between what people actually want in their lives and the Democratic brand. And we won't make that brand better. We won't fix it by being silent. Now, what I do think is also true is we won't fix it by just being kind of, like, whiners on the sidelines. And I think that's the point he makes that did resonate with me, which is, like, Democrats are powerless. It sucks. We're telling the truth. About Trump, he's fucking terrible. But we've been saying it for years. And by the way, the part of the problem is we were warning for years about how bad it could get. It is now as bad as it could get yet. And it's no longer a warning. But it sounds like what people have heard before. That is not our fault. That is a collective problem with our democracy, a weakness Donald Trump exposes. But it is the reality of like, and which is why I think where you get to is like, we just need to offer an alternative. We need to, we need to offer something that isn't about Trump. And like, I am even open to some of the more kind of like, kooky ideas of like, of, of people saying this is what our cabinet would be doing right now. Right. Like, I'm like, shadow cabinet. I'm not against you.

Tommy Vietor (71:10)

You're.

Jon Lovett (71:11)

I'm not against it. I'm not against the shadow cabinet.

Tommy Vietor (71:13)

Join the Labor Party. So spelling it with an ou.

Jon Favreau (71:15)

I'm.

Jon Lovett (71:15)

I'm up for Trump. Yeah, sure, sure, sure.

Jon Favreau (71:19)

I do think like it is. I agree that we shouldn't over promise and pick fights that give people the impression that we have power we don't have. Right. Because that is, that is a, that is a problem too, is you're like, we're going to fight, fight, fight, fight, fight. We're going to stop, we're going to stop them. And then it's like, obviously we knew we couldn't stop them because we don't have the votes for X or Y. Right. Like, so I agree that's. It's important not to over promise. But, but I still think, like, you need to fight when you can and just be honest about what power we have and what power we don't.

Tommy Vietor (71:44)

The Trump people are gonna break some parts of the government and people are gonna get hurt. And they have to understand why that happened.

Jon Favreau (71:49)

Yes.

Tommy Vietor (71:50)

So we've talked about the Doge stuff, but there's another thing that's gonna happen. So in 2020, Congress passed a bunch of tax credits to make Affordable Care act plans more affordable. Those were extended through 2025. Those are gonna expire, and if they are not reauthorized, you're gonna see a bunch of middle class people see, like serious premiums increases. We need to explain to them as Democrats why their premiums are going up. Otherwise it might just happen in a vacuum and people are going to think, oh, actually government health care sucks.

Jon Lovett (72:18)

It's Trump. Trump will say Obamacare sucks.

Tommy Vietor (72:20)

Yeah. Or Obamacare sucks. No, we have to explain that because the Democrats in Congress passed these enhanced tax credits for the Affordable Care Act. We need a better name from them. By the way, in Democrat.

Jon Favreau (72:30)

And the Republican Party expanded premium support.

Tommy Vietor (72:32)

Thank you. That's even worse. And Republicans let them last.

Jon Favreau (72:36)

Yeah. No, I mean, look, I do think that the budget fight is the fight for sure, and I get it. But I also, I'm already like, we're heading into the budget fight and I'm already feeling like the most popular testing message just coming right back up and everyone's just gonna be like, tax cuts for billionaires to cut your healthcare. And it's the right message, but I think we have to be creative in the way we talk about it. Like, we just can't sound like we have sounded like the last 20 years. So it is the right argument. You know what I'm saying? When I say the right message, that doesn't necessarily mean the right words, you know?

Jon Lovett (73:09)

I know, I know.

Jon Favreau (73:10)

Can't you feel it already?

Jon Lovett (73:11)

I know, it's. Well, it's hard, right? Because it's like part of it is like, you need to be doing two things right. You actually do need to use the messages that resonate with people because we're in a short term fight and you're trying to make the argument that resonates with people. But at the same time, we're trying to make up for what is like, ultimately like a huge credibility gap. Like, we warn the country for several elections in a row about how dangerous Donald Trump was. It was very, very clear. People did not. Not enough people believed us. Not enough people cared. Either we didn't reach them or if we did, they didn't. They didn't take it at face value. And so that, like, requires, like a deeper. You start telling a deeper story about what you believe about the world, and it's gonna challenge people's assumptions. It's not gonna be exactly what they expect to hear from you.

Jon Favreau (73:49)

Yeah. Or I mean, Tommy, you made this joke many times, which is like, Democrats have been using the line, we're gonna stop tax breaks for companies that ship jobs overseas, and we're gonna give those tax breaks to companies who create jobs in America for 20 years since that war. And so, like, is that one of the best polling testing lines? Yeah, I bet it is. And I bet when you ask people about it, they'd be like, yeah, I really like that. Like, it's not just polls people. But then work hard and play by the rules. If you say it for 20 years and it doesn't happen. And you just keep saying the same line, it's not gonna land well.

Tommy Vietor (74:21)

One thing that I think, think insulates Trump from a lot of criticism is people think, well, he's rich. He's not trying to make more money. Because somehow people have gotten it in their heads that billionaires don't always want more money. And that's how you become a billionaire. I think we need to undercut that by exposing the reality. For example, the Washington Post reported that Elon Musk and his businesses have received at least $38 billion in government contracts, loans, subsidies, and tax credits. We need to lift that up as he's slashing things through a doge or advocating for a $4.5 trillion tax cut for the richest people in the world. Like that. That's the kind of stuff, I think, where there's an enemy and it's newsworthy and it's new and it's interesting. I think we can sell that.

Jon Favreau (75:00)

Everything the tech oligarchs have done in the last 10 years does not suggest that they do not care about their wealth.

Jon Lovett (75:07)

Well, there's a. Yeah, these people cannot get enough, and it's fucking sick. But, like, I don't. I don't know. This is where I kind of come back. Like, I see what Carvel's getting at, right? Cause, like, what he's saying is, like, we kind of need to step back from the daily grind to figure out what we. What we mean and what we stand for. And I guess, like, where I land is, like, there's a lot of different Democrats that need to do a lot of different things. We need the people out there fighting every single day. Like, the days of, like, everybody driving towards one single message are probably over. There's, like, maybe a core message we're driving, but there's, like, a bunch of different access points to it. And some people, like Jasmine Crockett, are going to be better at just sort of, like, going for the fucking jugular. And some people are going to be a bit more academic, like a Pete Buttigieg, but also in a really effective way. Like, there's just, like. There's just gonna be a bunch of different ways to talk about this.

Jon Favreau (75:49)

And then you've got your Gen Xers pivoting to vertical video and TikTok.

Jon Lovett (75:53)

Right.

Tommy Vietor (75:54)

I reject that.

Jon Lovett (75:56)

And I think you're doing a great job.

Tommy Vietor (75:57)

You're the doge of this podcast with all your fucking falsehoods in this episode. Yeah, but, yeah, no, I think, like, we have to remember it's a Party. A list is not a message. Right? We have to tell a story. It's gotta be. There is like a lot of work we have to do as a party. Like there's a bit of a reboot of like, like who we. Like you say, who is Trump? What is he? People are like, I don't know, he wants to make America great again. Sounds stupid. We just make fun of it. But like boy, is that simple and effective. We don't need a slogan, but we need people to think. Like Democrats are like, they believe this, they stand for that, they fight for this. Like, we need to re stronger at.

Jon Favreau (76:28)

Home, more respected in the world and opportunity for all. And bottom up, middle out, middle class.

Jon Lovett (76:32)

Strength plus experience equals change.

Jon Favreau (76:34)

Middle out, bottom up.

Jon Lovett (76:35)

This is like, this is mega, mega, mega, mega. W stands for wrong John. But the, that's an old deep cut. But like this is like Bill Maher left. So we didn't really get into it. But it's like everybody in the, like when, when you make the argument, was.

Tommy Vietor (76:49)

It as sexually charged as it felt?

Jon Lovett (76:51)

I mean, I came but like you made like sex. Don't push me, don't push me.

Jon Favreau (76:55)

He came, he left.

Jon Lovett (76:59)

Yeah. You don't think 6090 exists? What are we doing right now, Bill? But, but like little treat for all.

Jon Favreau (77:07)

Of you who stayed through an hour 20.

Jon Lovett (77:10)

We're having a great time. We're having a great time.

Tommy Vietor (77:12)

We have to keep it dog out.

Jon Lovett (77:13)

At the beginning of, but the, the like this idea that like, you know, once you've made the argument and they don't want to push back in the argument, it's like, oh, you're going to cost Democrats elections for 20 years with this pro trans stuff. And it's like Donald Trump put a pro choice environmental lawyer at the head of the Department of Health and Human Services because he had built up so much trust and credibility with his base and he has so much power within his party that he had the space to operate, to challenge, to, to challenge orthodoxies in a bunch of different ways both before he became president and after. And like as a Democratic Party, to Tommy's point, like we need to have a core set of beliefs of values that are so clear, so that makes so much sense to people that you then have the space to kind of like take to, to challenge people on an issue they may not be agree with you yet. Right. To actually lead.

Jon Favreau (77:57)

I'm just, I'm laughing because I thought about like on the Democratic side and I was like, Kamala Harris did three events one day With Liz Cheney. And we're still hearing about how it was. That's what caused the end of the election. Election.

Jon Lovett (78:09)

But I actually honestly know she didn't.

Jon Favreau (78:11)

Even say, like, you think she was like, barnstorming with Liz Cheney and like, promising her a cabinet seat?

Jon Lovett (78:16)

Yeah, we're gonna. Yeah. Honestly, it's more like, what if Kamala Harris said, I'm gonna make Mike Pence my secretary of Health and Human Services? Could you imagine? But like, why is that so inconceivable? It's because, honestly, Kamala Harris, the most work she had to do was not just proved. She had to prove to every single group of people what she believed in. Right. She had no. She had no trust with the left. She had no trust with the center. She was starting from fucking scratch.

Jon Favreau (78:38)

Well, on the other side of it, too, just to prove I'm not a just Delus Cheney fan, you know, aoc, one of the best messengers in the party. And we couldn't even get her. We couldn't even get her a ranking member.

Tommy Vietor (78:47)

Yeah.

Jon Lovett (78:49)

When you have a talent like Connolly, when you have a once in a generation communicator like Connolly just waiting in the wings.

Tommy Vietor (78:56)

I do think that there's a lesson from the RFK thing where, look, he's a terrible person. I would not want him part of the Democratic coalition. And I don't think great on that.

Jon Favreau (79:04)

On measles, though, I don't think it.

Tommy Vietor (79:05)

Was a mistake for Kamala Harris not to like, cut a deal with him or whatever. Remember, that was kind of a narrative. But Republicans, they will let anyone into the tent, including him. And they saw Donald Trump correctly saw that RFK over through decades of misleading and, you know, sort of being emotionally manipulative to people who had been had, children with disabilities, et cetera, had built this constituency and built trust with a community that was like, pretty significant. And they saw the value of this kind of like, like wellness to anti vax to maga to Maha pipeline, and they were willing to go for it. And I just, I don't know, like, it's not a good example. It's not something I'd like to emulate. But that openness and willingness to bring people into the tent is something.

Jon Favreau (79:48)

It sounds like what you're saying is we need a, like a Joe Rogan.

Tommy Vietor (79:50)

Of the left of the right. Need a 69.

Jon Favreau (79:53)

All right, we're going to end this thing now. Thank you. That's our show for today. Reminder that we're going to be live streaming our preview of Trump's address to the joint session tonight at 8:00pm Eastern, 5:00pm Pacific. We'll have a bonus reaction show in your feed tomorrow morning. Talk to y'all then. If you want to listen to Pod Save America ad free or get access to our subscriber discord and exclusive podcasts, consider joining our Friends of the pod community@cricket.com friends or subscribe on Apple Podcasts directly from the Pod Save America feed. Also, be sure to follow Pod Save America on TikTok, Instagram, Twitter and YouTube for full episodes, bonus content and more. And before you hit that next button, you can help boost this episode by leaving us a review and by sharing it with friends and family. Pod Save America is a crooked media production. Our producers are David Toledo and Saul Rubin. Our associate producer is Farah Safari. Reed Churlin is our executive editor and Adrian Hill is our executive producer. The show is mixed and edited by Andrew Chadwick. Jordan Kanter is our sound engineer, with audience support from Kyle Seglin and Charlotte Landis. Madeline Herringer is our head of news and programming. Matt de Groat is our head of production. Naomi Sengel is our executive assistant. Thanks to our digital team, Elijah Cohn, Hayley Jones, Phoebe Bradford, Joseph Dutra, Ben Hefcoat, Mia Kelman, Molly Lobel, Kiril Pelaviev, and David Toles, our production staff is proudly unionized with the Writers Guild of America East.