Trump’s Wartime Messaging Disaster (feat. Jen Psaki)

Summary

Pod Save America — “Trump’s Wartime Messaging Disaster”

Guest: Jen Psaki
Host: Dan Pfeiffer (with contributions from the PSA team)
Date: March 22, 2026

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Episode Overview

This engaging and revealing episode features a deep-dive conversation between Dan Pfeiffer and former White House Press Secretary Jen Psaki. They analyze the Trump administration’s disastrous handling of messaging around the war with Iran, the political and economic fallout, and the ripple effects for Democrats heading into the midterms. Jen Psaki shares unique perspectives from her experience as both a government communicator and a member of the media, while Dan probes for lessons on messaging, policy, and the evolving landscape of Democratic primary politics. Memorable moments include sharp critiques, insider anecdotes, and frank reflections on the future of Democratic messaging.

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Main Discussion Segments & Timestamps

1. Initial Reactions to Trump’s War with Iran

[02:38–08:51]

• Jen Psaki’s Emotional Response:
  “I woke up and was scared because it is always scary when the country you're living in goes to war.” (Jen Psaki, 04:19)
• Concerns About Trump’s Judgment:
  Psaki shares her fears about Trump’s lack of impulse control, planning, or expert consultation:
  “He’s not a planner, he’s not a policy wonk or expert. He doesn’t listen to anyone around him…” (04:19)
• The Domino Effect of War:
  They both discuss how quickly the situation escalated, with the U.S. deeper into conflict and potential for ground troops looming:
  “We seem to be further away from extricating ourselves than we were three weeks ago.” (Dan Pfeiffer, 05:20)

Notable Quote

“This is a war that no one has any idea what it’s about. Right. It feels like it’s about his ego. It’s about his feelings.”
(Jen Psaki, 07:02)

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2. Political and Economic Fallout

[08:51–12:24]

• Impact on Key States and Voters:
  Analysis of political ramifications in military-heavy states like Texas and Georgia.
• Rising Gas Prices:
  “It was like anywhere between like $0.88 and over a dollar more per gallon... there is no way to change that... unless the Strait of Hormuz is reopened.” (Jen Psaki, 08:53)
• Disconnect with Trump’s Voters:
  Most didn’t vote for a war—Psaki and Dan marvel at the MAGA coalition’s reflexive support despite earlier anti-war postures.
• Divide Within MAGA & GOP:
  The contradiction between prominent voices decrying the war vs. overwhelming base support.

Notable Quote

“What is winning here? How do we win? I mean, it’s a big freaking question that they have not answered.”
(Jen Psaki, 06:25)

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3. MAGA Dynamics & The Future of the GOP

[12:24–17:50]

• Nature of the MAGA Base:
  Loyalty to Trump supersedes coherent ideology.
• What Comes After Trump?:
  Speculation on whether post-Trump GOP will revert to ‘normal’ or remain personality cult–driven.
• JD Vance as Case Study:
  His awkward, silent role as VP—caught between loyalty to Trump and his own skeptical supporters.

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4. Trump’s Messaging Failures: Inside the Communication Breakdown

[22:36–33:38]

• Compilation of Trump Admin Messaging Gaffes ([23:16–23:59]):
  Multiple inconsistent explanations (preempting Iran, defending Israel, “excursion,” “freedom of the Iranian people”).
• Psaki’s Assessment:
  “First of all, I have no idea what the message is. Nobody knows what the message is…” (24:19)
• Policy vs. Comms Failure:
  “If you can’t explain why you did it, it’s possible you didn’t know why you were doing it.” (Dan Pfeiffer, 22:36)
• Lack of Planning and Consistency:
  “It looks like a frigging disaster, right? If you’re China or Russia, you just sit back and watch this craziness unfold.”
• Failure to Build a Case for War:
  “There’s no messaging strategy that helps, that sells a war, a protracted war in the Middle East that leads to huge spikes in gas prices.” (Dan Pfeiffer, 30:04)

Memorable Moment

“A sheet of talking points is not a magic document. It’s based on the justification for why you’re doing something right... and if that doesn’t exist, it’s really hard to write good talking points.”
(Jen Psaki, 24:23)

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5. Media, Access, and Trump’s Unorthodox Style

[37:45–47:12]

• Trump’s Cell Phone Access with Reporters:
  Chaos for comms staff, breaking all previous protocol. “What sort of agita would it give you if reporters were just calling Barack Obama or Joe Biden on their cell phones...?” (Dan Pfeiffer, 37:45)
• Concerns about Journalistic Independence:
  “Sometimes people, reporters, journalists talk to a president and then they feel, like, giddy about it… and there’s no way that doesn’t shade how they report things or talk about them, even if it’s not conscious.” (Jen Psaki, 41:21)
• Access ≠ Information:
  Reporters can brag about talking to Trump but rarely get honest or coherent explanations.

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6. Broader Impacts: How the World and Markets Perceive U.S. Instability

[47:13–50:55]

• Seriousness of Presidential Words:
  Recollection of how past administrations obsessed over every public statement due to market and diplomatic impact.
• Contrast with Trump’s Carelessness:
  “When you’re talking about a war, what you say matters. And if you’re just talking out of your ass... you’re going to have a domestic political and an international public diplomacy disaster.” (Dan Pfeiffer, 48:54)

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7. Midterms, Democratic Primaries, and Lessons for the Party

[55:38–73:49]

New Fault Lines in Primary Politics

• Democratic Identity in Flux:
  Races in Maine, Michigan, Texas reveal anti-establishment mood, generational tension, and resentment of “Washington insiders.”
• The Graham Platner Example:
  A scandal-ridden outsider leading despite old-school political logic.
  “Maybe scandal matters a lot less than it did back in the day. Maybe Trump has muted that a bit for people.” (Jen Psaki, 57:03)

The “Fuck Trump” Message & Political Communication

• Breakthrough Ad:
  Juliana Stratton’s direct “Fuck Trump. Vote Juliana” ad, featuring unfiltered language and endorsements from major Illinois Democrats.
  “I’m Juliana Stratton and I’m proud to have lived my whole life on the south side of Chicago. I’m not scared of a wannabe dictator… I’ll abolish ICE and hold Trump accountable for the crimes he’s committed. Just like they said—fuck Trump.” (63:47)
• Effectiveness and Risks of Bold Messaging:
  “That is the true belief of most Democratic primary voters, is fuck Trump. And they’re mad that not enough Democrats will say it…” (Dan Pfeiffer, 65:19)
• Short vs. Long-Term Costs:
  Agreement that bold, anti-Trump messaging can win primaries, but possible risks in general elections and on party brand.

Future Paths: Hopeful Messaging Still Matters

• “Is fuck Trump enough? Or are people gonna want to feel… part of a more positive movement?”
• “The best Democratic candidate in 2028 is going to be someone who seems both tough enough... but also is appealing to something bigger and better. The idea that we as a country are better than what we have had...” (Dan Pfeiffer, 72:28)

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Notable Quotes & Moments

• On Messaging Chaos:
  “I would give them a F minus on that.” (Jen Psaki, 27:13)
• On Divisions Within MAGA:
  “It is MAGA is another way of saying Trump. What Trump is for, they are for. And that is that we have to accept.” (Dan Pfeiffer, 12:24)
• On Media Giddiness:
  “He calls me and teases me about my interviews... and there’s no way that doesn’t shade how they report things or talk about them, even if it’s not conscious.” (Jen Psaki, 41:18)
• On Need for Positive Messaging:
  “You have to consciously do both. Right. Where there’s a vision for the future and also something that you’re excited to do with your neighbor.” (Jen Psaki, 71:37)

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Conclusion: Lessons & Takeaways

Jen Psaki and Dan Pfeiffer don’t hold back in diagnosing the Trump administration’s communications—“the worst messaging of things they’ve done in this term” (Jen Psaki, 27:19)—and its dangerous disregard for coherence or public trust. They extend their critique to the political eco-system, warning both media and Democratic operatives of reflexively adopting old strategies or underestimating “fuck Trump” anger. Yet, the conversation ends with hope: 2028’s winning Democrat must blend righteous indignation with optimism and a credible vision for a country weary of division.

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For listeners and activists alike, this episode delivers a masterclass in messaging, the perils of unmoored policy, and the challenges (and opportunities) facing a party and a country at a crossroads.

Transcript

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[Jon Favreau]

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[Dan Pfeiffer]

That's genius. Welcome to Pod Save America. I'm Dan Pfeiffer. You're about to hear my conversation with my good friend Jen Psaki, former White House press Secretary for Joe Biden and host of Ms. Now's the Briefing with Jen Psaki. Jen is one of those folks I could talk to for hours about anything, but this week I invited her on because I wanted to talk to her, one former White House com staffer to another, about how the Trump administration is trying to sell its war in Iran to the American people and how the media has covered it. We also talked a bit about the midterms, including how important Democratic primaries in Maine, Michigan and elsewhere are shaping the future of the party. Hope you enjoy it. And if you do, I hope you will consider subscribing to Friends of the Pod. If you friends of the Pod subscribers get our new extra episode of Pod Save America called Pod Save America. Only Friends. Other subscriber only shows like my show Polar Coaster. Access to all of our excellent substack newsletters like Pod Save America. Open tabs ad free episodes of all of your favorite Crooked pods and you get to feel good about supporting independent pro democracy media. So head to crooked.com friends and subscribe. And while you're feeling good about supporting independent media, hope you will consider subscribing to messagebox, my newsletter that gives you in depth political analysis to cut through the BS and helps you understand what you can do to defeat MAGA in this election and beyond. I have a special deal for Crooked fans. Go to crooked.com yeswedan for 20% off of your subscription. Here's my conversation with Jen Psaki. Jen Psaki, welcome back to podsave America.

[Jen Psaki]

It's great to be here.

[Dan Pfeiffer]

How are you?

[Jen Psaki]

I mean, the world is a shitstorm, but otherwise I'm good.

[Dan Pfeiffer]

Okay, we'll Take that. That's a. A caveat. Good. In Donald Trump's America, there are always. I could talk to you anytime. And unfortunately, because we live on other sides of the country, we only get to talk to each other on podcasts mostly or when you guys are doing

[Jen Psaki]

sold out events, then those two.

[Dan Pfeiffer]

Yes, yes, please emphasize. Or sold out for everyone to know. There's always a good time to talk to Jen Psaki, but this is a particularly good time given what's happening in the world. And before you were a cable news star and a White House press secretary, you also very specifically worked at the State Department as a spokesperson. And people may not know this, at the outset of the Obama administration, you were the person in charge of economic messenger during the financial crisis. We're now in the middle of a war and a emerging global economic crisis because of said war. And so you have a lot of expertise to bring to this. And I want to have a conversation here that takes a little bit of a step back and looks at, of course, what's happening in the world, but also like your perspective on how Trump is selling this war. But before we get to that, what's just your reaction to. What was your reaction when you woke up that Saturday morning to discover that we had gone to war with Iran? Both your reaction is that a person, an American and a member of the media would have to cover said war.

[Jen Psaki]

First of all, just as a sidebar, I didn't even do this for you, but I have in my coffee is in an economic report to the President mug from 2009, a relic I got from the economic team at the time, just to prove.

[Dan Pfeiffer]

Yes. That you were there.

[Jen Psaki]

I think like so many Americans, I woke up and was scared because it is always scary when the country you're living in goes to war. And it is not a decision, as you know well, and I know well, that any president makes lightly to use military force, even if it's for a smaller engagement than this is. But I think I felt fear because Donald Trump has no impulse control. He's not a planner, he's not a policy wonk or expert. He doesn't listen to anyone around him. And so the concern I had once I had some coffee and digested a bit, was how are we gonna unwind from this? I mean, even initially, even in that first day, because the military strikes and the military action and we have the best military in the world, bar none. That is true. You know, it's very difficult to dig out of what the impact of that is. And that was evident very quickly. I mean, within days, this seems, we're

[Dan Pfeiffer]

now three weeks into the war. Things are seem to be getting worse, not better. They are expanding, not contracting. We seem to be further away from extricating ourselves than we were three weeks ago. And as we sit here recording this on Friday morning, there is reporting that the White House is getting closer to, to using ground troops talking. There were some White House aides quoted on background saying how ground troops have been used in every war. Why wouldn't they be used here? That it's not that big a deal. Just help us understand both the substantive and political impact of putting ground troops either in Iran proper or in the islands like Kharg island in the middle of the Strait of Hormuz.

[Jen Psaki]

Well, it's a very slippery slope. And so even as we've seen the buildup of troops sending more even to the Middle east over the past couple of weeks, I think there was something like 50,000. Plus there was another announcement a couple of days ago about a couple more thousand. It is a slippery slope where it becomes kind of clear that in most scenarios of war or troops on the ground, as they say, that's where it was headed. And I think that is alarming on so many levels because that is something that is very difficult to dig out of. Once you have people on the ground, you have the military and the commander in chief and others are going to want to do what they feel is winning. And that is, again, a question we don't know the answer to. What is winning here? How do we win? I mean, it's a big freaking question that they have not answered. Also, we have a different view of that than Israel, which is a huge, massive, separate but important issue on the political front. I mean, I think we have, there have already been lives lost, you and I both know very well. And I think we've both heard Barack Obama say this many times. I heard Joe Biden say this many times. The most difficult phone call, the most difficult letter any commander in chief writes or should write. And I don't know how Trump feels, and I know he's, like, devoid of human feeling and emotion in a lot of ways, is to the family of somebody who died, even in a moment of, you know, a member of the military, even when they are defending the country, even when they are doing something that is of great honor and great sacrifice, and certainly they all are. But this is a war that no one has any idea what it's about. Right. It feels like it's about his ego. It's about his feelings. And so if you're these families whose 18 year olds, 20 year olds or 30 year olds or your husband is going, that impacts not just that family, but impacts communities, impacts states. It makes people question the worth of this. And then there is of course the issue that is beyond the impact on the military. And I think about the military impact in a lot of ways, like states, I mean, just to be super political and I know we'll get there.

[Dan Pfeiffer]

Yeah, of course.

[Jen Psaki]

And talked about this. Texas has the largest number of veterans in the country. Right. It also has, I think maybe the most or almost the most number of military bases in the country. It also has one of the most interesting Senate races in the country. Now, a lot of those people probably voted Republican and probably voted for John Cornyn and maybe most of them will again. But if some of them are like, what is this about? This feels a little Iraq war. Like this feels, I mean, that's, you know, also Georgia, huge military presence. Right. I mean these are, this is, it can flow into that. And then there's of course the gas prices issue and impact of the longevity of a war like this. We've already seen it. I think I'm just gonna go economic nerd. But I'll have the data in front of me.

[Dan Pfeiffer]

You have the mug to prove it, so go for it.

[Jen Psaki]

I have the mug. I love data. I mean, I think as of last night, it really depends on the part of the country. But it was like anywhere between like $0.88 and over a dollar more per gallon. Right. And gas. And there is no way to change that. You remember Amos Hochstein? We, we had him on, like talked to him last night. It was a full nerd. I was embracing. I just like wanted to keep it going. But he, there's no way. And we've seen military analysts and others say this, there's no way to end the kind of dysfunction or the disturbance in the global oil markets unless the Strait of Hormuz is reopened. Right. And that is either going to require a negotiation or military action. So if you go back to the political front, we're already at 88 cents or a dollar, whatever it may be, it could be larger. And if Israel keeps striking places and they keep striking back in the Middle East. And so there are other, like what happened in Qatar, there are other oil fields off market, could be even higher. And that is a massive political problem for Trump and for Republicans running for office.

[Dan Pfeiffer]

Yeah, it's obviously no one voted for Donald Trump for the goal of going to War with Iran. In fact, people probably voted for the. If they voted on war at all, they voted for the opposite of that, don't you think?

[Jen Psaki]

I mean one of the most fun while interesting to watch is like the complete division in the MAGA baseland of over this. Right?

[Dan Pfeiffer]

Yeah. The thing is really, that part is really interesting because you have the high profile people like Megan Kelly and Tucker Carlson and Sean Ryan who's the very prominent podcaster, the former Navy SEAL who he put out Instagram TikTok post about just running through the quotes of all the people who said this would not happen, J.D. vance, Stephen Miller, et cetera. But at the same time you have the, you know, 85 to 90% of self identified MAGA voters are okay with approve of the war with Iran. And that is like a very interesting divide which I'm sort of curious what you make of that divide and whether that's sustainable or.

[Jen Psaki]

I don't know that it's sustainable. But I think it's probably just pure loyalty to Trump and his continued hold on a still a huge percentage of his of the MAGA base. What do you think?

[Dan Pfeiffer]

Yeah, so I think, I think there are a couple things going on here. I think one there, these are hardcore Trump voters. They're going to be for whatever Trump is for. Right. And there's a. And they're look, I. We should also where we have hardcore voters on our side, right? Like if you look, we have. This is not the same thing. It's not this. I want to stipulate this before I get destroyed for saying it's not the same thing. But that we had people who like a hardcore supportive number of Democrats refused to acknowledge that Joe Biden was too old. Right? Like that like we had that too. Right. Despite that like they're like we have like they're just. There are people like we're for our team, whoever our team is right now. I think there is a much greater set of hypocrisy in what's happening on the Republican side here. Yes, but like the thing that from like a purely political perspective and I'm gonna get us to the messaging around this in a minute, but from a purely political perspective in terms of like winning races, right? Taking the majority, winning the electoral college. We do not care that much that 85% of self identified MAGA Republicans are with Trump.

[Jen Psaki]

Right?

[Dan Pfeiffer]

Like that is not the issue now if we all of a sudden we wanna start competing in North Dakota with we gotta get that number to like 65. But in terms of winning Even winning in Texas, Alaska, Iowa, Ohio, that is a sustainable number. What we care about are independents who voted for Trump and Republicans who do not identify as maga. Because I think we've all, in the sort of political conversation post 2024, convinced ourselves that MAGA is a movement based on a set of views. Right. That it is, you know, anti immigration, it is anti trade. We believed it was America first. Nationalism, smaller government, those sorts of things. It is not those things. No, it is. MAGA is another way of saying Trump. What Trump is for, they are for. And that is that we have to accept. When you accept that reality, you start then realizing two things. One, those people are not leaving Donald Trump anytime soon, if ever, and that the party could look very differently after Trump. Now, I am not arguing that all of a sudden our friends at the Bulwark are gonna be like the Bulwark Republicanism or Mitt Romney Republicanism is coming back. I don't think that, but that it is a very open question about the Republican Party looks like going forward. Because once Donald Trump is sort of out of politics, per se. So that's sort of my take on it.

[Jen Psaki]

Totally. I mean, that is such an interesting way of laying it out. I mean, we. We are. It's not. It. Republicans in Pennsylvania are not 8, not 85% mad. Right. And so states that we need to compete, Democrats need to compete in. In 2026 and then 2028, it's not that majority base. I mean, just. I know we'll talk about the electoral politics of this, but on the MAGA side, I mean, one of the most interesting characters to me in all of this is JD Vance and how he has navigated this. And you may remember, I've. I've been trying to think about kind of normalcy and what a vice president would do. Now it. I mean, Joe Biden, when Barack Obama was president, kind of came to the table with more foreign policy experience, and he was more for engagement in a lot of ways, military action at a lot of times than Obama necessarily was. So he would have probably been more front and center. Not that we would have done this at all. But it feels. I mean, J.D. vance has been so silent, right? And when he has spoken, it's almost like he's speaking in the third person about a war that his government is. That the government he is the vice president for is waging. And that, to me, goes to what you say. It's like in his mind, he's got to be loyal to Trump, but he also knows there's like a part of the base that's sort of his. His people too. Right. Who aren't for this. It's so awkward, but I think that's what's going through his mind.

[Dan Pfeiffer]

The JD Vance thing is interesting because this. This doesn't make a lot of sense because Joe Biden actually ran for president, became president. But for almost the entirety of the eight years of the Obama administration, no one thought Joe Biden was running for president. And he was not doing a single thing to prepare himself for running for president. He wasn't forming a pac. He wasn't going to early states. It honestly wasn't until late, early 2015 when we were in a meeting in the Situation Room and the then vice president pulled me aside and told me that he was thinking of running for president and he wanted that. He had definitely. He had not fully ruled it out yet, and he wanted to sit down and talk about it. And that was the first. Like, I almost fell out of my chair. I was. Because I was surprised by. But why that matters. And then you had Cheney for eight years, who was never running president. So we haven't had a presidential candidate in waiting in the vice president's office since Al Gore.

[Jen Psaki]

Political calculations at all times. Yeah.

[Dan Pfeiffer]

That and having to balance that loyalty to the president with their future political ambitions. And so we're seeing that with J. Vance. I think he's handling this incredibly poorly. And it just shows a very simplistic view of politics. Like, just imagine the world where J.D. vance is running in the Republican primary. Right. So Donald Trump serves his full term, doesn't go to prison. J.D. vance is running. There is going. Other people will run. Right. And that one of those. The most likely candidate who was not JD Vance is someone who is running against Trump either from the right or the left or maybe both. And so J.D. vance wins by being the Trump candidate, not by splitting the difference between the Trump candidate and the non Trump candidate.

[Jen Psaki]

Yeah.

[Dan Pfeiffer]

Because if he's something different than Trump, he's never gonna be the purest version of something different than Trump. And so the worst thing that can happen to him is being seen as so disloyal by Trump that Trump does not back him because he needs Trump to back him to win.

[Jen Psaki]

Yeah. Yes. And right now I feel like reading a couple of these stories, just given how many stories you and I have pitched between us, probably thousands. Where it's like a source close to JD Vance says in a meeting he expressed concerns about the impacts of the war. Right. And then it's like Then they're on the record saying he support, you know, he's here to support whatever they're saying.

[Dan Pfeiffer]

It's probably the same person.

[Jen Psaki]

He's the same person. Let me tell you something on background. Let me tell you something on the record. The thing I was gonna say about electoral politics, not that elected officials in Washington are the determinant of what the politics in the country are, but one interesting thing I think that's interesting to watch in D.C. is whenever this supplemental package actually comes together, right? Cause there's been a range of reporting this week on it being $200 billion. Maybe it'll be exactly that. Who knows? Without any specifics around it. Now Mike Johnson is like, yeah, that sounds good, whatever he said, which is so predictable. But there are a number of Republicans kind of telling Democratic senators on background basically saying, like, I, I don't, I'm not for that. Now we'll see what actually happens. Lisa Murkowski was a little, you know, publicly, we'll see what actually happens. But, you know, it could fail. Like a supplemental funding vote could fail. And that would be a pretty significant loss for Trump if that happens.

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[Dan Pfeiffer]

Let's come back to supplemental funding, because I do want to get to Trump's messaging on the war, because I think that that is the precursor to the larger political conversation about how it's going. And it also, I think the messaging is also a proxy for the entirely messed up policy process that brought us to this. Because if you can't explain why you did it, it's possible you didn't know why you were doing it. But let's take a listen to some of the varying Trump administration explanations for what we're doing in Iran. Our objective is to defend the American people by eliminating imminent threats from the Iranian regime.

[Peter Doocy]

We knew that there was going to

[Dan Pfeiffer]

be an Israeli action. We knew that that would precipitate an attack against American forces, and we knew that if we didn't preemptively go after them before they launched those attacks, we

[Peter Doocy]

would suffer higher casualties.

[Jen Psaki]

Israel forced your hand to launch these strikes against Iran?

[Dan Pfeiffer]

No, I might have forced their hand. You see, we were having negotiations with these lunatics, and it was my opinion that they were going to attack first. If we didn't do it first, they would have done it to Israel. We did an excursion. You know what an excursion is? We had to take a little trip. You just said it is a little excursion, and you said it is a war. So which one is it? Well, it's both. I think. That was your. Your old sparring partner, Peter Doocy at the end asking that question.

[Jen Psaki]

I have to say, he's had a couple of good moments of asking real legit questions which make Trump mad, because they're real legit questions. So there's.

[Dan Pfeiffer]

But as a communications professional who's worked on not, but worked on, like, high national security issues. What's your. What's your sort of take on what's been happening here?

[Jen Psaki]

I mean, first of all, I have no idea what the message is. Nobody knows what the message is, in part because the message, as you know. Well, it's not magical. A sheet of talking points is not a magic document. It's based on the justification for why you're doing something right and what you want to achieve through it. And if that doesn't exist, it's really hard to write good talking points. Now, there are still things that, aside, like the continued use of excursion, that

[Dan Pfeiffer]

you're like, he means incursion. He means. He means incursion. But I keep say excursion.

[Jen Psaki]

And so it sounds like he's talking about, like a sale, you know, like a little boat sale or something. You know, I think what's clear, what it's made me think a little bit about is during the Iran negotiations, Ben Rhodes used to lead these kind of twice weekly civics calls, so calls that you're in the sit room for that, where you would talk about what was happening with the negotiations and what the messaging was going to be. Right. What were the parameters of what you could say publicly? How were we all explaining from the Defense Department, the State Department, the White House, CIA, not that they say a lot, what we were saying, because you want to be singing off the same song sheet, not just for. Because it's better, but also for members of Congress as you're trying to get them to do things for our allies and partners, even for our adversaries. I mean, this looks like a frigging disaster, right? If you're China or Russia, you're like, well, they. I'm just gonna sit back here and watch this craziness unfold. So there's certainly that. It also, I mean, you know, we both worked in a White House where there was a lot of memo writing. Right. And a lot of red teaming, as we called it, which is a good process in government, though, where you're sitting in a meeting and we did that. But there were people who were national security leaders who were doing that at a much more highly consequential level than us. Right. Mapping out what would the impact be of military action in Iran. Well, it's entirely predictable. Any national security expert will say that it would have impacted the Strait of Hormuz, that it could have led to the conversation about troops on the ground, that it's really difficult to actually get any of this nuclear material out. Point being, that process happens before you even are developing. Right. The public talking points and in the process of making a decision and because that didn't happen and. And it seems like Trump, I don't know the facts here, woke up on like a Friday and was like, let's do this. It looks disjointed and confusing. And meanwhile, people are like, I don't know what the hell is happening, but my gas is a dollar more a gallon. Right. Or it's $20 more to fill it up. So, yeah, I would give them a F minus on that.

[Dan Pfeiffer]

Yes. It doesn't go low enough to do it.

[Jen Psaki]

I don't even. It's like, probably their worst messaging, I think, of things they've done in this term, but that's just my.

[Dan Pfeiffer]

For sure. For, like, with. I think, without a question, it's their. It's their worst message because they don't actually have a message. And it's just a rotating series of rationales that are often in conflict with each other. Right. It's.

[Jen Psaki]

Yeah.

[Dan Pfeiffer]

Rubio saying the imminent threat was not. First it's Trump saying there was an Iran was going to attack us. There's imminent threat. Then Rubio says the imminent threat is actually Israel attacking Iran and then Iran retaliating against us. Then there's Trump saying, no, no, we made Israel do it. In the first several hours after the attack, Trump said the purpose was for the freedom of the Iranian people. Then he said it wasn't Iran, it wasn't regime change. Then it could last two weeks, it could last 30 days, it could last longer. It's just, there's no story. And I think there was a lot to criticize in their communications here, in their messaging here. This is ultimately a policy problem. Well, yeah, I guess that's sort of the question. Right? This is the thing you and I would say all the time is, you know, unemployment would be at 10% or the healthcare.gov website would not be working. People will come and say, well, why aren't we get, you know, you know, what's the press strategy? What's the messaging? And you'd be like, it's not a. It's not a messaging problem. It's not a comms problem. It's a policy problem. This one, I think, is actually both.

[Jen Psaki]

Yeah, that's true. And I used to have a mug that said nacp, Not a comms problem. Because this is.

[Dan Pfeiffer]

You had a lot of mugs. You really express yourselves through ceramic wear.

[Jen Psaki]

Yes, that is true. And not to, like, take any blame off of Steven Chung here, who is delightful, but what are you working with here. Right. If you're him, it's like, okay, why are we in this war? You know, what are the basic questions? Right. Because as you all know and I know, you sit in a meeting about policy, a policy decision is being made and you're sitting there saying, okay, how are we going to explain this? And you're pressure testing the things. Right. Why are we in this war? Well, because there's an imminent threat. Based on what? Also the intel community is about to contradict us. So like how, you know, there's like, that doesn't even work as a comms thing. Right. Okay, we're going to go get the nuclear material. Well, how? Well, it's really difficult to get the nuclear material. So that's not great. So point is, it's like their messaging is terrible and obviously they should throw themselves in front of him every time he says the word excursion. But. Yes, but it's if and I cannot. I doubt they're pressure testing things in the same way we would have or other people who are running competent communications operations would have. But they have very little to work with here because of all the reasons.

[Dan Pfeiffer]

Yeah. I mean, there is like, there's no messaging strategy that helps, that sells a war, a protracted war in the Middle east that leads to huge spikes in gas prices. Like, there is not the place where I think you. That it is fair to be critical. And I will also say it's not the communications department's job to come up with the reasons why you go to war. It's the people. We're supposed to have that reason before we go to war. That's not our thing. You can figure retroactively.

[Jen Psaki]

Exactly.

[Dan Pfeiffer]

But where I think they did make a fundamental mistake that is making their problems much worse than they otherwise would be and they would be pretty bad under even the best of circumstances is that they spent no time before the war trying to explain why we would go to war.

[Jen Psaki]

Yes.

[Dan Pfeiffer]

Like Trump gave the longest State of the Union in history and spent like two minutes on Iran also.

[Jen Psaki]

That's true. And it was like what, a week before. I mean, not even.

[Dan Pfeiffer]

It was four days before. I think it was the Tuesday. And then we went to war that Friday night, Saturday morning.

[Jen Psaki]

Terrible State of the Union. I don't even remember hardly anything in it. Also, he did a speech which the networks gave him time for. I would just note that I don't even remember what it was about. A primetime address. And he didn't choose to do that for this. That is, that is all true. Now, what's also true. Now I feel like I'm, like, defending Stephen Chung, which is a weird place.

[Dan Pfeiffer]

No, no, no, no, no. Don't, don't. Let's stipulate you're not defending Steven Chung.

[Jen Psaki]

Is. It felt so. And we don't know. And there's, you know, reporting on this. I guess there'll be more reporting. But as much as, as Trump has clearly kind of wanted to do something like this, we also don't know if, like, he literally made the decision two days in advance. Right. You know what I mean? It's like. And his communications team was like, okay, like, here we are. So that is possible, too. I don't know.

[Dan Pfeiffer]

Yeah, it's very. Because when you see in the polling. Right. The polling is all very bad for this war, but how bad it is really depends on how the question is asked. Like, there was a poll out this morning which asked the question, in terms of whether you approve of the war to take out the Ayatollah and stop their nuclear ambitions. That poll's much better than, do you support the war with Iran? And so it's all bullshit, because Trump told us a few months ago that he obliterated. Not even a few months ago, he told us, like, two weeks before the war that he had so obliterated their nuclear capacity that we would have to bomb the dust.

[Jen Psaki]

Right.

[Dan Pfeiffer]

The leftover dust. But if you. There was a. There was a way, like, if you want to take the country to war, you have to do. You have to have a reason to do it. You have to do an immense planning process for what happens after the first bombs drop, which they did not do here. They absolutely did not do. They seem flummoxed by everything that's happening. But you also have to go to the country and go to the world and build a case for it. And they did not even try. That may have failed. It probably would have failed under all scenarios, but they didn't try. And one of the reasons why I think they didn't try is, is the people around Trump who wanted to do this knew that if you talked about it, everyone would say, don't do this. And so they really tried to make the biggest, most dangerous, most consequential decision a president makes on the cheap.

[Jen Psaki]

Yeah. Without putting any of the work in to tell the story now, I mean, it also is why this is, I think, the most unpopular first couple of weeks of a war ever. Is it?

[Dan Pfeiffer]

Yes. Ever.

[Jen Psaki]

Yeah.

[Dan Pfeiffer]

There was no polling at the outset of the Vietnam War, but I suspect this would be Even more popular than that.

[Jen Psaki]

Right. And the interesting thing, as you will know very well about, since you do the Polar coaster as a listener about the freezing of that poll, right. Is like, are people gonna care in two months that the Ayatollah is dead and his son, who's more hardline than he is in younger actually, if they pay attention, they'd be like, I don't know that that's better. Right? And they're not really paying attention. They're paying whatever more for gas. And they've lost servicemen and women from their community. They care that the Ayatollah is dead. And then it's like, we're not ending their nuclear program because they still have know how to do it and we can't actually. I mean, David Sanger wrote a very nerdy but well done story about the difficulty. Don't worry, I'm not going to spend a lot of time here and I'm not an expert on this, but I found it interesting of like they, the Iranians know they've probably divided it up into many, many canisters, right? All of those canisters, like you could. Even if our military had to go in on the ground or the Israelis or whatever it is and get those canisters, they could drop, they could implode. Anyway, point is, it's really difficult and we don't even know where all.

[Dan Pfeiffer]

And you'll never know if you got it all.

[Jen Psaki]

You'll never know if you got it all. Exactly. Exactly.

[Dan Pfeiffer]

The whole thing's a disaster.

[Erin Ryan]

Foreign.

[Tommy Vietor]

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[Alyssa Mastromonaco]

Quick question. Are you politically engaged and spiritually exhausted

[Erin Ryan]

if you said yes to both? Welcome home. I'm Erin Ryan.

[Alyssa Mastromonaco]

And I'm Alyssa Mastromonaco.

[Erin Ryan]

And we're the hosts of Hysteria, the podcast for women who care about democracy, culture, and not losing their minds in the process.

[Alyssa Mastromonaco]

We break down the news, call out the nonsense, and spotlight the women actually fighting back on Capitol Hill, in classrooms and everywhere. The stakes are high.

[Erin Ryan]

It's sharp, honest analysis featuring women's voices with humor and zero handholding.

[Alyssa Mastromonaco]

Listen to Hysteria wherever you get your podcasts and watch full episodes on YouTube.

[Dan Pfeiffer]

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[Jen Psaki]

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[Jen Psaki]

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[Dan Pfeiffer]

One interesting thing I'm curious. Your take on as a communications staffer and a member of the media now is one of the ways in which Trump has been communicating about the war is not through your typical, you know, national televised press conference, although he has them. One of those, or an address to the nation, is that he is basically just doing one. But he's not calling anyone. He's just picking up random calls from reporters. Tommy tried to call him on the show last week because his number is so available that Tommy was able to get it. Your colleague, Stephanie Rule, I think, spoke to me either last night or this morning and had a 15 minute interview with him. Just first, let's start from your perspective as a comm Sephard. What sort of agita would it give you if reporters were just calling Barack Obama or Joe Biden on their cell phones, like at all times? He was just picking up the call and you're discovering he took the call by the tweet.

[Jen Psaki]

I mean, a whole host of agita, like not being sleep at night. I mean, it is. There's also this larger, like, is access what should be applauded when access is

[Dan Pfeiffer]

like, well, yeah, I want to ask you about that too.

[Jen Psaki]

Whatever, we'll get there. I have, you know. But it is tons of agita for a range of reasons. First of all, I mean, every president knows they should know. Trump is a little unique. Everything there is to know. Right. It doesn't mean about, like how they're thinking about policies and the status of things and many things that are secret. It's not their job to know entirely. Although they should always be reading and stuff. What's been reported, right. What's out there. Like the difference between what is known about what happened in a private meeting and what isn't known. So, you know, it's like they should know that, but they don't always. Cause they're running the country. Right. So there are things like that. But yeah, it would give me a great deal of agita, I think. They don't seem to, though. They're kind of. I mean, just watching Caroline Levitt communicate about this sometimes feels like, I mean, she. It's like. And now whatever it was a week and a half ago, she left on the table that there might be a draft. Can you imagine when you were the comms director or the senior advisor, if somebody out there on a Sunday show had done that, you would have lost your freaking mind.

[Dan Pfeiffer]

You know, I would have marched, I would have taken. I would have met them at their house, put them in a car and driven them directly back to the Sunday show to refute it.

[Jen Psaki]

Right, Exactly. I don't even know what you would have done, but like, it is. Those type of things happen because they're just. It's just like they just want to please Daddy, you know, it's a crazy way to run a White House.

[Dan Pfeiffer]

On the question of access right there. I was one of the people who was pretty critical of Biden, particularly in the last couple years, for not doing enough communicating, not talking to enough people. I've been of the view that Democrats, that in this media age, politicians need to be communicating all the time. That approach has benefited Trump in a lot of ways. It helped get him here. So there's two questions on this level thing. One is, as a member of the media, what do you make of just the fact that we. Is it like, is it a.

[Jon Favreau]

Put it.

[Dan Pfeiffer]

Put the specifics of Trump aside, but, like, is it a good thing that people can just call the president at all times and then, like, what do you see as the limits of this as a communication strategy?

[Jen Psaki]

On its face, I don't think it's a bad thing necessarily. I mean, it's like, I'm like. I mean, I think that anybody running for president in 2028, all 117 of them, right, they're gonna have to do a ton of interviews. Right. And they should. And they should talk to everybody.

[Dan Pfeiffer]

All of them on your show and our show.

[Jen Psaki]

Right?

[Dan Pfeiffer]

Of course, most of them should be

[Jen Psaki]

there whatever else they want to do, but.

[Dan Pfeiffer]

I agree, but primarily your show and our show. Primarily your show and our. Correct, correct.

[Jen Psaki]

Sorry. No bulwark. I'm just kidding.

[Dan Pfeiffer]

They can do the bulwark just after us.

[Jen Psaki]

Right? Fair, fair. Make them fifth. So I agree with that. And people have to be out there. And whenever somebody's even coming on our show, I'm sure for you guys, and they're like, litigating, like, we can't do 10 minutes. We can only do six. You're like, okay, you know, just wait till you have to do, like, a round robin of 12 interviews when you're, like, on the road or whatever it may be. So I think that's a good thing. I think the thing that is challenging or concerning and it's hard to even monitor this really, is sometimes people, Reporters, journalists talk to a president and then they feel, like, giddy about it, right? They feel like, oh, I. Well, I can call Donald Trump and, like, I can talk to him, and, like, he has. Gives me all this access and, you know, he calls me and teases me about my interviews or whatever it may be. And there's no way that doesn't shade how they report things or talk about them, even if it's not conscious. Now, there are many people who don't do that, right? So it's. But it's like, it's a very hard thing to. To monitor. I feel like I was reading this interview with. Or saw it. I don't remember. It's all running together with Jeffrey Goldberg, right, That I think he did with Ben Smith, where he talked about how after he reported on Signal Gate, Trump was like, you won this one. Why don't you come see me more? Right. And, like, Jeff Goldberg doesn't give a shit about that. Right. He's not going to, like, change his reporting because Trump is like, come see me. I don't know that that's true for everybody. And, and even if it's not conscious, and I think that is the thing that's a little tricky.

[Dan Pfeiffer]

Yeah, look, I mean, every president does the access thing. When we were, I mean, we did

[Jen Psaki]

work for a while, the records and

[Dan Pfeiffer]

like, yeah, we would bring in columnists off the record all the time to meet with Obama, you'd bring in people. You know, you do all the record stuff, too. But one of the ways, you just, like, you hope it shapes coverage and it's not just like grifting in terms of shaping coverage. Like, the idea of the off the record conversation is to have or the background conversation. And we can dispute the journalistic ethics of participating in these things, but the argument for it from our side was you want people to understand why the President is doing certain things in ways in which he can't. If he were to just, you're never going to ask him those questions, interview, but if he explains the strategy or his general approach to politics, policy, et cetera, you're at least interpreting the things you see him saying and doing through the framework of what we're doing. Like David Plouffe and I, when we were in the White House, we used to do a. I think it was a weekly meeting, you know, deep background meeting with the White House press that we would try to try and explain so people would like, I want you to understand how we see the world. So when you see what we're saying, you understand from our perspective. Yeah, you can think it's stupid or wrong or bad or whatever else, but at least you understand what our thought process is. I think the hard part with the Trump cell phone thing, and this is unique to Trump, is, and you hinted at this, but there is this confusing access with information, which if the President talks to you, but he doesn't tell

[Jen Psaki]

you anything and he lies, right?

[Dan Pfeiffer]

Yes.

[Jen Psaki]

Yeah.

[Dan Pfeiffer]

It's like, what is the value? Yeah, it's like what? Yeah, that's exactly right. It is certainly true, and I believe this, that people should take what the President says seriously, even Trump. And Trump gets away with saying a lot of things because a lot of people in the press don't take him seriously. Like, I was yelling about this with John yesterday, but Trump said that he believed that Iran was about to strike the United States and that they were Gonna have a nuclear weapon within a short period of time. That is a lie.

[Jen Psaki]

Yeah.

[Dan Pfeiffer]

That is not borne out by any of the intelligence. His own DNI and CIA director would not say that under oath yesterday. And we just sort of like, ah, Trump says things, you know, and so there is like, I won't even take it seriously, but it's like, there is something that's, like, uncomfortable with the breathless, like, selfie videos reporters are taking, which is like, I just got off the phone with Trump, and here's what we told me. And it's like, well, what's the context for that? Like, what does that contradict? Like, it contradicts what he said before, what he's gonna say after. Like what? Like, I don't know the right answer. I'm not a reporter. It's not for me to decide. But there is just something uncomfortable with, like, I both want people that reporters to take what he says seriously and hold him to account for those things, but also not treat his every utterance as, like, this huge exclusive get when he's just vomiting words into your phone. You know, it's like, it's very hard.

[Jen Psaki]

It is very hard. And I think. And, you know, there have been moments of headlines where you're like, what the fuck? You know, I mean, it's like, we're about, I mean, things Trump has said, but things as the administration has said that just are not true. That, like, there isn't enough testing of right and pushing of right. And maybe that is easy for me to say, but it's like, I don't. I mean, this wasn't, I guess, Trump driven, but I remember when Tom Homan went in, right, and was like the new czar or whatever in. In many. In Minnesota. And you're like, people are like, this is a. A leaf, new leaf turned, you know, and you're like, is it like, this is the guy? I mean, it's kind of. Yeah. Anyway, that's kind of a random example. But yes, to your point, it's a little. There's something that's uncomfortable about it, even though I think Democrats who are running and the next Democratic president should do a lot more engaging with the press. Right? And I don't mean coming into the press briefing room and doing that like they can, but, like, I mean, doing a range of other things. And it should be constant. It should be like, daily or almost daily. And. And that's true. But, yeah, there's something that's uncomfortable about the selfie videos after a call where it's like, And Trump says there was an imminent threat. And you're like, but there wasn't, you know, so it's like, I don't know.

[Dan Pfeiffer]

It's hard.

[Jen Psaki]

Yeah.

[Dan Pfeiffer]

The, the other thing about this is I remember in, I actually think I was coming to see you in the White House after the election in 2016.

[Jen Psaki]

Oh, God.

[Dan Pfeiffer]

And, and I was in town. I think I came in to see you in my old office. And then I went in to see Obama. And as I was walking in, like, Susan Rice, who was national Security advisor at the time, and a bunch of the national security people had just walked out. Obama had just done a call with a world leader. And they're all, you know, all the goons are in there briefing them. They got these, all these experts. And he said to me as I walked in, he's like, well, we're about to find out if all of the prep, you know, and the policy really matters as much as these guys say it is. And, and Trump navigated. He got very lucky in his first term and was able to like, half ass a bunch of things. And nothing bad happened until the pandemic. Then something horrendous happened. But from a foreign policy perspective, it was kind of a quiet time. But here is the example. This is the chickens coming home. The roost of a president who doesn't pay any attention to policy, isn't interested in it, doesn't think seriously about these things, and is surrounded by people who don't think seriously about these things. You end up here. And that applies communications wise, too, which is when you're just talking about the economy or immigration, maybe you can just fly by the seat of your pants, say what you want here and there, but when you're talking about a war, what you say matters. And if you're just talking out of your ass every time someone calls you on the phone, you're going to have like a domestic political and an international public diplomacy disaster. That's kind of what we see here.

[Jen Psaki]

Yeah. I mean, because it's, it's not just him kind of saying weird stuff about the Texas Senate primary. Right, Right. It's like, you know, it's, it's him throwing things out there about, like, it may be over tomorrow, it may be months. Right. It may, you know, it's like. And people kind of pay attention out there to what he says. Now, some of it, I'm not a markets expert, maybe some of it's baked into the markets, I don't even know. But, like, it's still for people who are Trying to understand, like, where this is going and why and what the impact is going to be, whether it's an. At an ally or. Or an adversary or a senator or a person with a child in the military. It's like you have no idea. And it's real. And it's. It's not like fun and games, obviously.

[Dan Pfeiffer]

I just remember how much time we spent thinking about the things that we said. Not just Barack Obama, but the White House press secretary, anyone on tv, anyone who spoke on behalf of the president anywhere in the government, how those words would be interpreted by not just the American people. And that matters a lot, obviously, but the markets. There are times during the financial crisis where things that people said could send the market reeling, how it would be viewed by other governments around the world, both friend and foe. And then Tommy and I were talking about this the other day, but just as we were engaged in the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan, one of the things we were thinking about a lot was how the rest of the Muslim world was seeing what the United States was doing in terms of what that would mean for people being radicalized against the US how we were combating the recruiting efforts from Al Qaeda and ISIS and the rest, and thinking about those things. And they're thinking about none of those things, as far as I can tell. Like, it's just sort of wild to take it so unseriously.

[Jen Psaki]

I mean. Exactly. And you think about. And I remember when I was at the State Department as the spokesperson there, you think about how people in foreign capitals. Right. And foreign.

[Dan Pfeiffer]

Every single day. Yes.

[Jen Psaki]

They read those transcripts because they see it as indications of where the United States is. And sometimes it's. I mean, currently, it's like a lot of people are looking for other partners, looking for other kind of global leaders or global superpowers to be partners with economically or otherwise. I know the Pete Hegseth management of all of this. I mean, it's like, is he playing Colin Jost? Is Colin Jost playing him? I don't even know it is, but there are moments certainly where anyone who's worked in a White House wants to just scream and yell about the press. Right. But his strategy of berating reporters for asking very valid questions about war also is. I think people are watching that around the world. Right. This is the Secretary of Defense, right? It is. You know, so it's not just. It's certainly Trump, but it's also the. Some of the people around him who are contributing to the lack of seriousness through which, you know, we're the war is being portrayed or how the US government is handling it is being portrayed, of course.

[Jon Favreau]

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[Dan Pfeiffer]

Love.

[Jon Favreau]

What the heck?

[Tommy Vietor]

I love Wild Grain. We, we got a big box from the company there and we had a bunch of family in town over. I think it's Thanksgiving and then again at Christmas. And we had in the freezer like baked croissants and loaf of bread and like this, you know, chocolate, whatever. And it was like, it was so good. And you just turn on the oven, you preheat it, like whatever, 350. You throw it in there and it's like a fun thing to do with the little kids. And then it comes out and it tastes delicious. It's like, it's like your house is a bakery. You pull these little delicious morsels apart and you eat them. I don't know. It's fun to do. It tastes great. Give it a shot.

[Jon Favreau]

Great. And do they have crescent rolls or is it just the croissants?

[Tommy Vietor]

You know, I'll never forget being at a diner in Boston when I was younger and someone I was with ordered like the croissant. It said it right? And she goes, the croissant?

[Jon Favreau]

Yeah.

[Tommy Vietor]

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[Jon Favreau]

That's right.

[Tommy Vietor]

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[Jon Favreau]

Okay. He took four years of French. All right.

[Tommy Vietor]

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[Jon Favreau]

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[Alyssa Mastromonaco]

Quick question. Are you politically engaged and spiritually exhausted

[Erin Ryan]

if you said yes to both? Welcome home. I'm Erin Ryan.

[Alyssa Mastromonaco]

And I'm Alyssa Mastromonaco.

[Erin Ryan]

And we're the hosts of Hysteria, the podcast for women who care about democracy, culture, and not losing their minds in the process.

[Alyssa Mastromonaco]

We break down the news, call out the nonsense, and spotlight the women actually fighting back on Capitol Hill, in classrooms and everywhere. The stakes are high.

[Erin Ryan]

It's sharp, honest analysis featuring women's voices with humor and zero hand holding.

[Alyssa Mastromonaco]

Listen to Hysteria wherever you get your podcasts and watch full episodes on YouTube.

[Dan Pfeiffer]

Reggie, I just sold my car online.

[Jen Psaki]

Let's go, grandpa.

[Tommy Vietor]

Wait, you did?

[Dan Pfeiffer]

Yep, On Carvana. Just put in the license plate, answered a few questions, got an offer in minutes. Easier than setting up that new digital picture frame. You don't say. Yeah, they're even picking it up tomorrow. Talk about fast. Wow. Way to go. So about that picture frame. Ah, forget about it. Until Carvana makes one, I'm not interested.

[Jen Psaki]

Car selling made easy on Carvana. Pick up these mantly.

[Dan Pfeiffer]

Let's pivot to domestic politics for a second. Another reason why you are an excellent guest for the show is even before you went to work for Barack Obama, you were at the DCCC when the Democrats took the house in 2006. You've worked on a lot of campaigns in your life, sort of in the initial. This is even before Democrats were probably favored to take the House before the war. Depending on how this goes or how long it stands, that's obviously going to probably not be great for Trump and the Republicans. But right now, as we look at the main conversation about the midterms has been about the primaries, Democratic primaries, with the amount of attention that was spent on both in Texas and nationally, I'm sure on your network and our network as well, on the Texas primary between James Talarico and Jasmine Crockett. Honestly, we have spent so much time talking about the main primary. There's a fascinating Michigan primary coming up this in a couple months. There's another primary in Massachusetts, another one in Minnesota. As you sort of look at, you know, we Democrats currently are a party a little bit adrift in terms of like what we stand for. The these primaries are supposed to be, I think a way of trying to figure that out. What, what do you see sort of as the major dividing lines in the party that's sort of manifesting itself in the primaries here. And it could be that the primaries are each individually different but. Curious your take on it.

[Jen Psaki]

Yeah, they do feel a little bit individually different to me at least. I mean, Maine, I know we've spent a lot of time talking about Maine. I know you guys have too. And it is. What is fascinating to me about that race is that in many ways Graham Platner has like defied political gravity. Right. From what you and I maybe have lived through or known through, doing many campaigns over the course of years, which is like if you have a big scandal that comes comes out that's old, that people didn't know about, it's going to change the perception of voters of you. Right, right. What does that tell you? Well, maybe scandal matters a lot less than it did back in the age, the day. Maybe Trump has muted that a bit for people. Right. Also people are looking for and it's so hard to describe this, I guess somebody they feel they identify with as being like them. Now is it like, oh, he's like me because I also had a Nazi tattoo I covered up. No, I'm not saying that, but just made mistakes. Imperfect. Doesn't feel like a politician. I think that doesn't feel like a politician is a big factor to state the obvious. Doesn't feel like Washington. This is a big, I live in Washington or Virginia. But like it feels like a very anti establishment, anti Washington trend that may be universal across a lot of these races. I mean, even if you look in the polling in Michigan and we haven't seen the primary outcome yet. Right. Graham Platner, I don't know without knowing what his political affiliation is. If you don't listen to like every position he has. Right. You might not know if he's a Democrat or Republican. Probably same with Talarico. And they're both very progressive on a range of issues. Right. So that may be a unifying thing. Somebody who can kind of break through and is an effective communicator. All this stuff sounds very obvious as I say it out loud. But like traditional old school politicians who have risen up through elected office feel less like this is their year to state perhaps the obvious. What do you think?

[Dan Pfeiffer]

Yeah, so I think there it's that the focus on Texas was interesting because I think it's the least relevant of all of the divides. Because I sort of see that. I see there are sort of three divides that are sort of dominating the party. One is center and left. Right. Like every primary has in some way a opportunity to litigate, you know, an ideologue. You're going to have a more liberal candidate, a more moderate candidate. And. And Talarico and Crockett were basically had the exact same positions.

[Jen Psaki]

Yeah.

[Dan Pfeiffer]

For all intents and purposes, they were both sort of down the line in terms of the, like, what they actually support. They're kind of like down the line normie Democrats in that sense. There are a couple things here and there.

[Jen Psaki]

They talk differently about how they wanted to win the electorate. Right.

[Dan Pfeiffer]

Their divide was one.

[Jen Psaki]

Yeah.

[Dan Pfeiffer]

Yes. Was a political strategy fight. Right. Is it.

[Jen Psaki]

Yeah.

[Dan Pfeiffer]

Is it fire up the base or is the middle. The second divide is generational.

[Jen Psaki]

Right.

[Dan Pfeiffer]

That is. That's not a good year to Bills. That is Seth Moulton and Ed Markey. He's just. It's like there you see that a lot in a bunch of these House races. You're seeing a ton of younger candidates taking on older candidates like that. That is obviously a central base. And then the third one is inside, outside. In the inside, outside one is one of the reasons why the main thing is interesting, which is, and it's hard, you never know what's causation, what's correlation with these things. But as far as we can tell, Platner is winning the primary and by how much is an open question. You see polls with him with a huge lead, you see polls with a narrow lead. But the gist of the polling is that Platner has an advantage. Now, we haven't seen polling since Janet Mills went on the air with an ad highlighting the Reddit posts and those sorts of things. So we'll see if that changes. But it's just very interesting that, you know, this oysterman who has went through a brutal media cycle, who is leading the incumbent governor of the state who is endorsed by the DSCC and Chuck Schumer and everyone else. Like that is just. And so is that. Is Platner winning because he is a unique political talent? Maybe. Is Platner winning because he's younger? And Janet Mills would be the oldest person elected to the Senate, I believe. You know, certainly in our party, after everything we went through with Biden, maybe. Is he winning because she's endorsed by the establishment and including Chuck Schumer. And Chuck Schumer has a -31 approval rating among Democrats right now. Maybe. So it's Hard to know what that is, but those are sort of the things happening. I mean, every race is different, right?

[Jen Psaki]

Yeah.

[Dan Pfeiffer]

Michigan has an establishment ish candidate in

[Jen Psaki]

Haley Stevens, who's endorsed, also picked by Schumer. So there's that.

[Dan Pfeiffer]

Yeah. Also picked by Schumer and the dscc. And then you have a Bernie candidate and Abdullah said. And then you have Melanie Mora, who's not an anti establishment candidate per se, but is it endorsed by Elizabeth Warren? That one's a little hard to tell. And then the other thing you raised that's interesting in these is communication styles. Right. What are Democratic voters looking for? Because a lot of these are about. We're asking ourselves these questions about who's the best person. That was what was interesting about Texas. Who's the best person to flip a red state. Who's the best person to beat Susan Collins. Who's the best person to make sure that we keep Michigan. And they're making people Democratic primary voters are projecting what they think, general election voters will think. And the communication stuff comes into play with that as well.

[Jen Psaki]

Yeah, yeah.

[Dan Pfeiffer]

And speaking of communication stuff, I want to talk a little bit about the messaging. On Friday's podcast, I talked to Juliana Strett, who's a lieutenant governor of Illinois who just became the nominee to replace Dick Durbin in the Senate.

[Jen Psaki]

Senate. There you go.

[Dan Pfeiffer]

Yes, she is going to be. She would not. When I talked to her, she was being very cautious.

[Jon Favreau]

Senator.

[Dan Pfeiffer]

Yes, yes. I kept saying, when I see you in the Senate, she kept wanting to point out to me that she saw an election and go there, which is what hurt. She's supposed to say that.

[Jen Psaki]

But of course, but we can.

[Dan Pfeiffer]

As I said to her, if she's not in the Senate, things have gone horribly, horribly wrong for the Democrats.

[Jen Psaki]

Bad, very bad. Restart from scratch.

[Dan Pfeiffer]

And that was a primary that didn't get a ton of attention. It also, like Texas didn't fit exactly into some of the categories I'm talking about because you had two younger candidates, both relatively establishment figures, although there were some ideological differences. But one interesting thing from that race is that Juliana Stratton ran what I think might end up being the most interesting ad of the cycle. I'm gonna play that ad for you right now.

[Jen Psaki]

Oh, yeah. Fuck Trump. Vote Juliana. Fuck Trump. Vote Giuliana.

[Dan Pfeiffer]

Fuck Trump. Vote Giuliana. They said it, not me.

[Jen Psaki]

I'm Juliana Stratton and I'm proud to have lived my whole life on the south side of Chicago ago. I'm not scared of a wannabe dictator. I'm running for Senate to stand up to Donald Trump. I'll abolish ICE and hold Trump accountable for the crimes he's committed. Just like they said.

[Dan Pfeiffer]

Fuck Trump.

[Jen Psaki]

Fuck Trump. Fuck Trump.

[Dan Pfeiffer]

Vote Giuliana.

[Jen Psaki]

That's why I approve this message.

[Dan Pfeiffer]

For those who are not watching on YouTube, the last fuck Trump comes from Senator Tammy Duckworth.

[Jen Psaki]

Yes.

[Dan Pfeiffer]

And the last vote, Juliana, comes from Governor J.B. pritzker, who has endorsed his lieutenant governor. What do you think of the ad?

[Jen Psaki]

I mean, I'm like, get it, girl. And I can't wait for her to be in the Senate, which she will be. But the thing is that that message in a primary, it wasn't exactly Jasmine Crocketts, who's also an incredibly talented politician, but there was, stylistically, Jasmine Crockett is like one of the most fierce call out Trump politicians.

[Dan Pfeiffer]

That's kind of her. Her aura is fuck Trump.

[Jen Psaki]

Yeah, yeah, her aura is fuck Trump. Right. And so that now there's so many factors in every race, of course, but so that won't work everywhere. The fact that it worked in an Illinois primary, maybe not surprising. I mean, they have dealt with ICE overtaking their city. They've dealt with, you know, Donald Trump targeting illinois because of J.B. pritzker. So it works there. But I don't think that works in Michigan, Texas, and I mean, you know, a bunch of other states.

[Dan Pfeiffer]

Yeah. A good friend of ours who lives in Illinois and is a big Juliana Stratton fan texted me the ad when it first came out to get a personal political experts react take on it. And I think this person was uncomfortable with the ad. Was this too far? Was it? And I think if you were of a certain era of politics where the idea that you would say fuck someone in an ad seems crazy. But my take on the ad. And it was bleeped on broadcast television. Yes, yes. But that's not where most people get their information anymore. So a lot of people saw it as just heard the Fuck Trump. And my take on that ad is that is the true belief of most Democratic primary voters is fuck Trump. And they want to. And they're mad that not enough Democrats will say it, either in their words or their actions. And it was like, and this is what Lt. Governor Stratton said to me was that it was a moment where she broke through. She was being massively outspent. People were not paying a ton of attention to the primary. So all of a sudden people saw her and she did sort of very cleverly used it to get her own message. Out because it's like, fuck Trump. Fuck Trump. Oh, also, I'm Juliana Stratton. I'm from south side of Chicago. I want to abolish ice. I'm going to do these things. And then it shows popular Governor Jamie Pritzker Popper signing or Timmy Marquis being

[Jen Psaki]

the Fuck Trump lady. Who the Fuck Trump lady?

[Dan Pfeiffer]

Yeah. Being the Fuck Trump lady helps. And in Illinois, there's no consequences for doing that, because she's going to win the general election. If Jasmine Crockett or Mallory McMorrow or Janet Mills won a primary on a Fuck Trump, maybe that would work in Maine, but on a Fuck Trump message in a purple or red state, maybe there's consequence for that. I don't know. But the lesson to me from it is you have to get your message heard, and you have to be willing to break with old ways of doing politics, get your message heard, and take some risks, because she was trailing by a lot at the time. So it's like, what do you have to lose?

[Jen Psaki]

No. Yeah. I mean, and this is going to be. Well, and it'll be very interesting to see, and we still have some time to go, but not that long before there's a presidential primary. And it's like, for people who just want to hang in there, right, and raise enough money in the first or second quarter, what do they have to do? Is it. Is it a Fuck Trump message to hang in there?

[Dan Pfeiffer]

That is the. I mean, can you imagine what the Democratic presidential primary is going to be like in that situation? Like, I was even thinking back to the 04 primary, which you worked on for John Kerry. Yeah, I know, but I just remember there was, like, this bidding war of, like, people saying Bush was the worst president ever. And people kept saying it, like, in stronger language. I think at some point, Dick Gephardt may have swore, but, like, this time, it's gonna be like, someone will say, fuck Trump. Somebody like, motherfuck Trump. Just like, motherfuck Trump and everyone he's ever been with, it's just gonna get, like, up and up and up.

[Jen Psaki]

It's crazy. I know, exactly, because there's gonna be a tier of people who could be great presidents but aren't, can't raise as much money and are gonna have to find a way to break through.

[Dan Pfeiffer]

Do you worry as we look at the primary that we. That there's this incentive which is Fuck Trump. Like, and I don't mean just like Trump is bad, but, like, a literal message of the equivalent of this is like, fuck Trump is a Great way to get attention and raise money and maybe even get some support in a Democratic primary. But. And so you have the short term incentive to do those things.

[Jen Psaki]

Yep.

[Dan Pfeiffer]

But it has, you know, potentially long term consequences both for party branding and in the general election for whoever wins the nomination.

[Jen Psaki]

Yeah, I mean it's like fuck Trump end. Right. So it's a little. And the challenge and we're all guilty of this is like you're gonna cover the Fuck Trump ad. Right. So there's a responsibility that lays everywhere to kind of COVID things and have conversations about things that go beyond that. I think I'm interested to see. And I gotta. It's like not in front of me right now. You probably are more familiar with the timeline of when we'll know this, like what the order of states is, the primary states and how people will have to campaign. Because the other thing that I think is gonna be a challenge that is kind of comes in partnership with the Fuck Trump type of ads is if there are a lot of states where it's really like a money and media driven campaign and you're not really required. I mean, you know, a lot of caucuses have been. They've done away with them for good reason. But like where are people going to really have to campaign and have those conversations? I don't know that we know the answer to that yet. So that to me is an important question too because I think that's part of what makes people stronger.

[Dan Pfeiffer]

Yep. We don't know the calendar yet and I think they have to figure it out basically by the end of this year. But it's almost certainly going to be a more expensive endeavor than it's ever been before because you're going to have larger, some larger states at the front. Yeah, Iowa will not be at the front. I think New Hampshire still will be in some role, but we don't know that for sure. But I think it's Michigan, Georgia.

[Jen Psaki]

I'm not doing a western state.

[Dan Pfeiffer]

Yeah, the Nevada. Nevada will probably be some of these. Nevada, not that expensive, smaller, at least two medium markets. But you're going to have some bigger states. Iowa, New Hampshire, South Carolina was a pretty cheap, relatively speaking in terms of like media spend, but then also now you'll spend less money on linear tv. But yeah, your point is it's going to be harder for under this new mapping. It's going to be harder for someone with little money to break out and be able to like Pete Buttigieg did in 2020. So I think that that like that will push people down that path. The other thing that I think is it's also, we just don't know how big. Like, I guess Trump will never go away. Right. He's always going to be a dominant part of the conversation. I mean, I think he will go away from the White House just before people panic and start throwing their phones into the ocean. But I think he will, I think he will be out of the way.

[Jen Psaki]

I think he'll be reelected to a third term in a landslide.

[Dan Pfeiffer]

But I do think by the time we get to the general election, 2028, Trump's going to feel a little bit like George W. Bush.

[Jen Psaki]

Yes.

[Dan Pfeiffer]

Which is.

[Jen Psaki]

Yeah.

[Dan Pfeiffer]

What's their past? Right. Are you turning the page on the past? And there'll be lots of ads of JD Vanson or whoever else hugging Donald Trump. Like we ran of John McCain and George W. Bush in 2008. But it's gonna feel old. You can kind of feel it happening right now before us. People are like, ugh, they're over it.

[Jen Psaki]

You know, I mean, and maybe this is because I got to know you best when we were working for the hopey changey guy. But like, I also think politics often happens in cycles. Right. And there's a question of is it, is fuck Trump enough? Right. Or are people gonna wanna feel, and I think I'm a believer in this, maybe as an optimist, that they're a part of a more positive movement. Like something that. Not that you can't do both, you can, but you have to consciously do both. Right. Where there's a vision for the future and also something that you're excited to do with your neighbor. And not like that's uplifting. Right. And not just like, you know, negative, downtrodden, doom scrolling.

[Dan Pfeiffer]

I believe, like, once again, we, we are, we have shared the same bias here of being people who truly learned about politics from Barack Obama.

[Jen Psaki]

Yeah.

[Dan Pfeiffer]

But I do believe to the core of my soul that the best Democratic candidate in 2028 is going to be someone who seems both tough enough to fight for people and fight against a broken system and to hold the people who exploited that system under Trump to account for their crimes, but also is appealing to something bigger and better. The idea that we as a country are better than what we have had for the last 15 years of Donald Trump at that point.

[Jon Favreau]

Right.

[Jen Psaki]

And that that's possible. I mean, the last.

[Dan Pfeiffer]

It is possible. It's not. It's a more hardened version of Obama in 08 for sure. We've been through a lot in that Time. But there is that we are, that we are better than this, like counterproductive, non never ending division in this country that we're seeing from in our politics, in our media, in social media, that there's something better than this and that we are better than this as a country and that people will want that. I do truly believe that if we survive long enough to get there as a nation. But like, and who that candidate is, great question. Does that candidate exist? I don't know. They'll have to prove themselves but I think that's where we have to get to. And you may have to say fuck, you should say fuck Trump along the way and you shouldn't hesitate to say that. But it's gotta be something bigger than that.

[Jen Psaki]

Don't edit yourself, just have more to say. I think is sort of the answer to that. You know, I think the other thing I've thought about a little bit with this, who knows this 2028 field and who will be in it and it'll

[Dan Pfeiffer]

be interesting to watch because everyone is the answer.

[Jen Psaki]

Everyone will be everyone. Your mother, all of it is. You know, actually Talarico said something about this that reminded me of this. One of the things about Obama that I think was undervalued and again, I know we're biased here, but that's that he wasn't afraid to piss some people off, including from within his own party. And not in a way that's like let's piss somebody off tomorrow but in a way that was sometimes essential because you weren't beholden to like keeping everybody happy at all times. Right. And I think Talarico said something about immigration in this regard and people can agree or disagree, but I think that's an interesting thing. You have to have a very tough skin to run for president and to be president and that is one of the things I think will be interesting to watch and see as this, as this starts happening next year.

[Dan Pfeiffer]

It's going to be, it's going to be fascinating.

[Jen Psaki]

Jen Psaki, I'm on our show first and then their show or both.

[Dan Pfeiffer]

That's that, that the, that's when we say the early states you have to win. We mean Jen show in pod Save America.

[Jen Psaki]

Correct. That's it really. You know, it was great talking to you as always.

[Dan Pfeiffer]

Great talking to you as always. Thank you for doing this and we'll talk to you again soon.

[Jen Psaki]

Good to see you.

[Dan Pfeiffer]

That's our show. Thank you to Jen Psaki for joining us. Love it. Tommy and John will be back in your feed on Tuesday. Bye everyone.

[Peter Doocy]

If you want to listen to Pod Save America ad free and get access to exclusive podcasts, go to cricket.com friends to subscribe on Supercast, Substack, YouTube or Apple Podcasts. Also, please consider leaving us a review that helps boost this episode and everything we do here at Crooked. Pod Save America is a crooked media production. Our producer is Saul Rubin. Our associate producer is Farah Safari. Austin Fisher is our Senior producer. Reed Churlin is our Executive editor. Adrienne Hill is our head of news and politics. The show is mixed and edited by Andrew Chadwick. Jordan Kanter is our Sound engineer with audio support from Kyle Seglin and Charlotte Landis. Matt de Groat is our Head of production. Naomi Sengel is our Executive assistant. Thanks to our digital team, Elijah Cohn, Hayley Jones, Ben Hefcoat, Mia Kelman, Carol Pelaviev, David Towles, and Ryan Young. Our production staff is proudly unionized with the Writers Guild of America East.

[Alyssa Mastromonaco]

Quick question. Are you politically engaged and spiritually exhausted

[Erin Ryan]

if you said yes to both? Welcome home. I'm Erin Ryan.

[Alyssa Mastromonaco]

And I'm Alyssa Master of Monaco.

[Erin Ryan]

And we're the hosts of Hysteria, the podcast for women who care about democracy, culture, and not losing their minds in the process.

[Alyssa Mastromonaco]

We break down the news, call out the nonsense, and spotlight the women actually fighting back on Capitol Hill, in classrooms and everywhere, the stakes are high.

[Erin Ryan]

It's sharp, honest analysis featuring women's voices with humor and zero hand holding.

[Alyssa Mastromonaco]

Listen to Hysteria wherever you get your podcasts and watch full episode episodes on YouTube.

[Jen Psaki]

Sometimes you just want a good story. On TikTok you'll find short dramas, emotional, fast and impossible to stop watching.

[Erin Ryan]

Download TikTok now.