What Really Happens During a Presidential Transition

Summary

Pod Save America: What Really Happens During a Presidential Transition

Release Date: December 24, 2024
Hosts: Alyssa Mastromonaco, Dan Pfeiffer
Producer: Caroline Rustin
Podcast: Pod Save America by Crooked Media

---

Introduction to Presidential Transitions

In this episode of Pod Save America, hosts Alyssa Mastromonaco and Dan Pfeiffer, seasoned veterans of the Obama administration's transition process, delve into the intricacies of presidential transitions. Moderated by producer Caroline Rustin, the conversation provides an insider’s perspective on what typically occurs during these critical periods and contrasts it with the unprecedented nature of the recent Trump transition.

Personal Experiences with Obama’s Transition

Dan Pfeiffer opens the discussion by sharing his role as the communications director during the Obama transition. He details the responsibilities involved in rolling out cabinet nominees and managing public communications:

“I was in charge of sort of the messaging, the transition, which really counted, to both helping coordinate how we responded to reporter questions about what the president elect was gonna do, and mostly rolling out all of his nominees.”
(05:16)

Alyssa Mastromonaco adds her experiences, highlighting the logistical challenges and the close-knit nature of the Obama transition team:

“We held ourselves to a high standard. We really don't understand how few resources there are on a transition committee.”
(06:43)

They recount anecdotes that emphasize the hands-on and often improvised nature of the transition work, such as coordinating travel for nominees and handling unexpected situations with limited resources.

Challenges Faced During Transitions

The hosts discuss the intense pressure and rapid pace that accompany presidential transitions, especially when they coincide with national crises. Dan reflects on the immediate aftermath of the Obama election:

“After the election, you're like, meet your new colleagues. It’s so demoralizing.”
(09:03)

Alyssa echoes the sentiment, describing the emotional and operational strain of transitioning from a campaign to governing without a break:

“Every single one wants a job. But meanwhile we're like, well, do we even have jobs yet?”
(17:12)

Comparing Obama and Trump Transitions

A significant portion of the episode contrasts the traditional, structured transition process experienced by Obama with the chaotic and opaque approach taken by Trump. Dan Pfeiffer is critical of the Trump administration’s handling of the transition:

“They are rolling out nominees, they're doing it differently. They're definitely not vetting their nominees in advance.”
(26:04)

Alyssa adds to the critique by pointing out the unorthodox and questionable aspects of Trump’s candidate selections:

“He’s picking Matt Gaetz, Tulsi Gabbard. Like, his picks are fucking bananas.”
(26:07)

They discuss the lack of adherence to the Presidential Transition Act of 1963 under Trump, highlighting how bypassing established protocols like vetted nominations and structured briefings can jeopardize national security and effective governance.

Operational Differences and Ethical Considerations

The conversation delves into the procedural differences imposed by the Trump transition, particularly the use of private funding over taxpayer funds:

“Trump is funding his transition through private, mostly secret money. And so they can do lots of things we could not do.”
(08:33)

Dan emphasizes the importance of transparency and accountability, contrasting it with the Trump administration’s tendency to circumvent ethics requirements:

“If Trump is going to blow up on his own, we don't want to give him something easy to blame like the Biden staff being petty or not.”
(30:57)

Unusual Practices and Public Perception

Alyssa and Dan discuss unusual practices within the Trump transition, including bizarre job application questions for cabinet positions:

“One section asks applicants to pick three or more attitudes that suit them. As such, 'I require excessive admiration,' or 'I don't have that much interest in having a sexual experience with another person.'”
(29:26)

They express disbelief and concern over these non-standard practices, underscoring the departure from conventional vetting processes expected in presidential transitions.

Conclusion: Navigating Transitions Responsibly

In wrapping up, the hosts advocate for a responsible and transparent transition process, emphasizing that openness not only facilitates effective governance but also minimizes the incoming administration’s vulnerabilities:

“The risk you run by being the person who doesn't offer a productive transition is that if something bad happens, it can blow back on you.”
(30:40)

Dan concludes with a strategic outlook, urging the current administration to uphold the integrity of the transition process to prevent easy scapegoating:

“The Biden administration is doing what they can to do the transition the right way. And I think they should absolutely do that. That's the right thing to do from just a general, like, point of government's public service. But politically, in the end, it's also the right thing to do.”
(30:57)

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Key Takeaways

• Structured vs. Chaotic Transitions: The Obama transition was methodical and adhered to established protocols, whereas the Trump transition has been marked by improvisation and lack of transparency.
• Vetting and Ethics: Proper vetting of nominees and adherence to ethics are crucial for a smooth transition, areas where the Trump administration has faced criticism.
• Impact on Governance: A responsible transition ensures continuity and prepares the incoming administration to handle immediate and long-term challenges effectively.
• Public Confidence: Transparent and well-managed transitions bolster public trust in the democratic process and the capabilities of the new administration.

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Notable Quotes

• Dan Pfeiffer:
  “Between us, we host, like, five podcasts. How many podcasts did Barack Obama host when he was 47? Zero.”
  (03:01)

• Alyssa Mastromonaco:
  “It is wild. I had to read it many times because I'm like, this can't be true, but it is.”
  (29:30)

• Dan Pfeiffer:
  “If Trump is going to blow up on his own, we don't want to give him something easy to blame like the Biden staff being petty or not.”
  (30:57)

---

This comprehensive discussion sheds light on the complexities of presidential transitions, emphasizing the importance of preparation, transparency, and ethical practices to ensure effective governance and uphold democratic integrity.

Transcript

[Unknown Speaker (Ad Read)]

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[Dan Pfeiffer]

Hey everyone, we're out for the holiday break. What you're about to hear is an episode from one of our Friends of the Pod subscriber shows. Subscribers get shows like this ad free Pod, Save America and much more. Subscribing to Friends of the POD is the best way to directly support Crooked Media as we build a counterweight to the right wing media machine. Right now is your last Chance to get 25% off new annual subscriptions. Just head to crooked.com friends or subscribe directly through the Pod Save America feed on Apple Podcasts. So enjoy this episode and please consider signing up Foreign.

[Alyssa Mastromonaco]

Welcome Back to Inside 2024. I'm Alyssa Mastromonico.

[Dan Pfeiffer]

And I'm Dan Pfeiffer.

[Alyssa Mastromonaco]

Buddy, is it still inside 2024? What are we gonna call it in 2025?

[Dan Pfeiffer]

Are we allowed inside again?

[Alyssa Mastromonaco]

Maybe it's just outside.

[Dan Pfeiffer]

Yes, outside the country. 2025.

[Alyssa Mastromonaco]

Outside the country 2025. Wait. Before we get started, I have to. I have to give you a little fun fact.

[Dan Pfeiffer]

Oh, please.

[Alyssa Mastromonaco]

Do you realize as we sit here and record today, we are older than Barack Obama was when he became president.

[Dan Pfeiffer]

Well, gee, thanks, Alyssa. That's great. That's exactly what I needed during the holiday season. Yes, I'm well aware of that.

[Alyssa Mastromonaco]

At least we're the same age. I'm doing it to myself, too.

[Dan Pfeiffer]

Do you know what?

[Alyssa Mastromonaco]

What?

[Dan Pfeiffer]

Between us, we host, like, five podcasts. How many podcasts did Barack Obama host when he was 47? Zero.

[Alyssa Mastromonaco]

None. Okay, so we're thriving.

[Dan Pfeiffer]

So he's ahead of us in some ways, and we're ahead of him in other ways. It's fine.

[Alyssa Mastromonaco]

Well, but it's December. We're winding down for the holidays, in theory, and it's time to rest and recharge. But alas, we are knee deep in a presidential transition period, straight out of the upside down world. So, Dan, we're two old vets of the process. Caroline wrote that we both served on the transition committee in the Obama years, so we have some valuable insight to impart on this very abnormal moment. So today, we're talking about just that. Also here to moderate this conversation, definitely not an old vet of anything, is producer Caroline Rustin.

[Dan Pfeiffer]

Did she write that, too?

[Alyssa Mastromonaco]

No, I wrote that.

[Caroline Rustin]

Okay, I didn't see that you wrote that. I mean, I've been here six years. I'm like an old vet.

[Alyssa Mastromonaco]

When I tinker with the outline, I tinker with the outline.

[Caroline Rustin]

Also, I just want to point out that Obama post, being a president, gone into podcasting, so he kind of is following in your footsteps.

[Alyssa Mastromonaco]

You can shut up now.

[Dan Pfeiffer]

That's exactly how he sees it, too.

[Caroline Rustin]

No, I mean, he did. So you were both part of the Obama transition committee. What is that mean? What were your roles? What did you do? Tell me all about it.

[Dan Pfeiffer]

I was the communications director for the transition, which meant that during the campaign itself, I had sort of a second, like, half job, which was to begin thinking about how we staffed the transition, what kind of resources we would have, how we would think about communicating with the public after we won, which was a terrible job. I hated even spending. I was so superstitious. I hate spending any moments thinking about what would happen if Barack Obama would win when he had not yet won. And once the election was over and Obama became the president elect, I went to Washington a couple days after the election and was in charge of sort of the messaging, the transition, which really counted, to both helping coordinate how we responded to reporter questions about what the president elect was gonna do, and mostly rolling out all of his nominees. The cabinet secretaries, the new White House staff, the people who are gonna serve on the Federal Reserve board, that sort of stuff. Like how we rolled them out, what kind of press events we did, what we said about them, how we responded to attacks on them. And so it was sort of just like a. It was sort of just very. It was very similar to my communications director job on the campaign, but focused on what the administration would look like when he actually took office in two months.

[Alyssa Mastromonaco]

So I actually, I was on the transition. The transition for us was split between Chicago and Washington, D.C. and so Barack Obama, then President Elect Obama and Michelle and the girls, they were staying in Chicago until the holidays because girls were still in school. So I was split between Chicago and D.C. and I, with Pfeiffer worked on. This is actually. Here's one of our funniest transition stories. So, like Pfeiffer said, we did a lot of the coordination around the cabinet secretary rollouts. They did not happen on Twitter as they do this time around. We actually had events where everyone would fly in and stand with the President for the most part and be announced. And he would have met with them and he'd come out and be like, I just met with my economic team and here's who they are. But one time, things move so fast and furious on the transition that one of my deputies, Lizzie, called Steven Chu, who was gonna be Secretary of Energy, to coordinate his travel. And when she called him, he goes, I guess I got the job. So we had. It is. It is fast and furious, but yes. So I oversaw everything that the President elect was doing, both in D.C. chicago when he traveled, and then also Pfeiffer and I were both, even though they're separate entities. There was the inaugural committee and we both had a lot of visibility into that because you can't have an inauguration that's off message or poorly organized.

[Caroline Rustin]

I mean, I feel like you can now.

[Dan Pfeiffer]

I mean, yeah, we thought. There's a lot of things we thought you couldn't do that you. Absolutely.

[Alyssa Mastromonaco]

We held ourselves to a high standard.

[Caroline Rustin]

You know, I love that the way we used to announce cabinet picks was like a debutante ball and not just like on Twitter.

[Alyssa Mastromonaco]

I mean, people really don't understand how few resources there are on a transition committee. Like, Pfeiffer was in D.C. so I'm not sure if he saw the same level of it, but where I was. Because President Obama was there most of the time. We had Secretary Clinton, then Senator Clinton was coming to see President Obama and he's like, can we get her some juice or something? And it required going to Bed Bath and Beyond to buy a pitcher and then go to the Whole Foods to buy the apple juice. And then one of us had to take the pitcher home at night and wash it. And when he heard it was Peter Orszag's birthday, who was gonna be our director of omb, he's like, we should make him a ca. Which meant one of us made him a cake. So those were very different Times. When John McCain was coming to see President Obama after the election, he flew out to Chicago. There was no car service to pick him up. There was a nice guy named Ted Chiodo who picked him up. McDonald's on the way so he could eat. It's rough and tumble. It is not a fancy. It is not. The taxpayers are getting their money's worth through that process.

[Caroline Rustin]

Wow, that's. That's kind of sad.

[Dan Pfeiffer]

Well, that's an important difference, right. Is that we. You. There is taxpayer money allocated for transitions. We use that money. And so essentially, we all became government employees the day after the election. And therefore, we had a whole bunch of rules we had to follow, like what you could spend money on what you can't spend money on. And Trump is not doing that. He is funding his transition through private, mostly secret money. And so they can do lots of things we could not do. And we had. They have. We had to follow a bunch of rules that they don't have to follow. Including ethics requirements. Yes.

[Caroline Rustin]

All right.

[Dan Pfeiffer]

It's basically you. In exchange for the taxpayer funds, you follow government rules. If you don't take the taxpayer funds, you don't have to follow those rules.

[Caroline Rustin]

Work smarter, not harder.

[Dan Pfeiffer]

I mean, if we could have announced those cabinet picks on Twitter, we probably should have.

[Alyssa Mastromonaco]

Would have been so much easier.

[Caroline Rustin]

So you're talking about how previously, before even winning the election, you are already prepping, even though you feel like it's bad juju. Okay, you won. What is happening the next day?

[Dan Pfeiffer]

It is hell on earth.

[Alyssa Mastromonaco]

Horrible.

[Dan Pfeiffer]

Horrible. Howard Wolfson, who worked for Hillary Clinton, described presidential campaigns as a pie eating contest where the prize is more pie. And that's exactly what it is. Right. Whereas you. We won. We had a victory celebration late into the night, and then several of us, myself and Alyssa included, had to come to the office at like 8, 9am the morning after the election to meet with our new boss, Rahm Emanuel.

[Alyssa Mastromonaco]

It was like. It was like 7:38am yeah, it was just.

[Dan Pfeiffer]

And then you're just like, you're working for the people who were going to work on the transition. You went like. And. Which includes basically the sort of the senior Staff of the campaign, you went right to work on your new job. There was no break.

[Caroline Rustin]

And I'd never been back in life to the worst.

[Dan Pfeiffer]

Yeah, it's truly a terrible morning. And it just pure chaos.

[Alyssa Mastromonaco]

But the other thing that's really hard about it is that, like, for example, Pfeiffer and I had worked together at that point, side by side for two full years and now there are just all these new people flooding in. And as Pfeiffer will attest, I don't like you until I like you. So that was a very hard time for me.

[Dan Pfeiffer]

Yeah, it is. That's an important point, which is as like some of us on the campaign would dip in and out of the transition because we were going to take jobs in the transition if we won. But separate from the campaign, there was an entire operation run by other people, staffed by people we don't know working out of an office in D.C. who are putting together binders of staff names and cabinet secretaries and doing research on them and thinking about what executive orders you would do in the first hundred days, just like an entire policy brain trust that we never spoke with, never saw. And then the day after the election, you're like, meet your new colleagues.

[Alyssa Mastromonaco]

And I was like, no.

[Dan Pfeiffer]

Yeah. Alyssa was like, no.

[Caroline Rustin]

I think what you guys are talking about is something I actually didn't know existed, which is the Presidential Transition act of 1963, which requires GSA to provide office based administrative support to the President elect. So looking at like the Biden administration right now, like, when does the new president elect start to get looped in? Like, how does that whole like literal transition process start? And like, how does that work? When is Trump getting clued in to.

[Dan Pfeiffer]

What'S going on after they become the nominee? If they.

[Caroline Rustin]

Oh, wow.

[Dan Pfeiffer]

So after you become the nominee, you are officially the nominee, which happens after the convention. Then you now get access to this government transition funding which most people Biden, Trump last time the we did, they take it, they take advantage of it. So they open an office that is run by the General Services Administration, which is sort of the government administrative arm. And you hire a bunch of staff, they get a bunch of volunteer policy people, they all start working. And then periodically during the campaign, the candidate and hopefully President elect will get briefed on, here's the names we're thinking about if you win, because you're going to have to move quickly. And so they kind of will be like, yes, yes, no, no, ask me about this again if we win sort of stuff. And then same for some Staff like us who would be like, these are the things you have to be thinking about. We're going to have to hire these people to work on the transition. Are you okay with these people? How should we staff it? How many jobs should we hold open for people who are currently on the campaign to work on the transition until January 20th on Inauguration Day?

[Caroline Rustin]

Are nominees being told that the Syrian regime is on the brink? Like top national security information when they're the nominee?

[Dan Pfeiffer]

Yes. You start getting classified briefing. You can start getting classified briefings as the nominee from the CIA bas essentially, correct me if I'm wrong here, but it's like a dumbed down version of the presidential db.

[Alyssa Mastromonaco]

Yeah. So what happens? And I learned this more. I sort of was clued into this more in 2012 when as Deputy chief of staff, I actually ran the internal sort of transition process. So we were sitting in the White House, but I still had to reach out to the Romney team onboard them. There's a small handful of people around. So there were small number of people around Mitt Romney who were submitted for security clearance so that they could be with Mitt Romney if and when he received any of these briefings. And you just get them all briefed up. So it's the nominee. Plus I'd say a small handful of people who all have access to a sort of maybe slightly diluted presidential daily brief. But, you know, when we were the nominee and headed into the financial crisis, the Bush team was actually really good about looping in Obama and McCain on everything that they were thinking and talking about in the days leading up to the election around the financial crisis in.

[Caroline Rustin]

2009, the Obama administration was coming into a huge recession. And I know we talked a little bit, you were just talking about how the outgoing administration has to loop in the incoming administration. But when something like a huge economic crisis is happening, what does that look like? I imagine you need to hit the ground running. What are the things you're doing day one when you're the nominee on something like that? Are the Bush folks like, nice to you?

[Alyssa Mastromonaco]

Extremely. Extremely. The Bush. I don't think that we could have been any luckier in our transition than how the Bush folks handled it. And they had told me in some of my transition meetings that in some ways it was kind of informed by how they came into office in 2000, which was different and a little contentious and maybe not the jolliest of transitions after the Supreme Court decided the election. But I found, and I'll let Pfeiffer speak to the financial crisis because to just show how sort of organized or whatever space the Obama campaign was, the economy was not my bag and so I did not pick it up. I had to watch the movie too big to fail to totally understand the financial crisis. So Pfeiffer would have a better, a better sense of that.

[Dan Pfeiffer]

Yeah, I mean Alyssa's right. The Bush people took real pride in having a real transition. And she's right. Bush's transition was not great for a couple reasons, but mainly he didn't get to start doing the transition for 37 days after the election because of the recount in Florida. And then there are some reports, some of which have turned out to be apocryphal, about some tension between the Clinton folks and the Bush folks after the election. But Bush did take real pride and they were very helpful. Everything we asked for, they were very helpful. Everyone whose job we were about to take spent plenty of time with us, meeting with us and talking about how to do the job so we could hit the ground running. But it was especially important because we were existing in the middle of this financial crisis. And it's important to understand that George Bush was basically had been a lame duck president for about a year and a half at that point. Fully lame duck. He, his approval rating was sub 30. He didn't really have the juice to get anything done because he was such a political albatross around the Republican nominee's campaign. He basically had disappeared. So not dissimilar for how Biden had been sort of absent throughout this whole campaign because him being in public was not seen by the nominee as helpful. So Obama sort of had to become president for all intents and purposes on day one as President elect because Bush wanted to pass a bunch of legislation to respond to the financial crisis and he could not do it on his own. He didn't have the juice to do it. So Obama had to take a real role in lobbying members of both parties to vote for bills. He had to begin writing legislation so that he could submit, he could release his economic stimulus bill before he even took office. And so we were, that was one of the hardware transition was we were having to do a normal transition to prepare for all the normal things you would do and hire all the right people and have your first week of events and be president at the same time during an absolute crisis with no margin of error. Because of who? Because of the history making nature of Obama's election, because of his relative Washington inexperience. Like if you one fuck up and it could damage his Presidency for a year.

[Alyssa Mastromonaco]

You can describe the transition most succinctly, I think, as just when the chickens come home to roost, like just across the board.

[Dan Pfeiffer]

You're so much more stressed because you're. By the time we built, the campaign was incredibly stressful. But we've been on it for two years and it's what we did. Like we were campaign people, we knew how to do it. And now you have a totally different job. The stakes are much higher. You're navigating different, like a different culture, a different set of objectives with a bunch of people you've never met before. Like we had the most closely knit campaign. There was maybe 10 to 12 people who had worked together for two years. We loved each other, we made all decisions together. We trusted Obama, Obama trusted us. And all of a sudden you have all these new people, which we needed them, right? They had experience, we didn't have them, but it was hard. I remember my first day of the transition. I walk in, I've been the communication director on the campaign. I'd been there on day one with Alyssa and Favs and Tommy and we had just won this presidential election. I walk in the transition and my name's not on the list, can't even get in the building. And all these people I who, whose names I only knew because they worked for, people who ran against Barack Obama in the primary, just buzzing through with their IDs as I'm standing there waiting for someone to come get me, like the kid. It's just so demoralizing.

[Alyssa Mastromonaco]

When I say the chickens come home to roost, it's everything. It is like Pfeiffer and I were the heads of our departments on the campaign, which meant that, you know, for me I probably had 100 and some full time employees. I had 500 part time employees. Every single one wants a job. But meanwhile we're like, well, do we even have jobs yet? Because like, there's a lot of faith, you know, you're like, oh, I'm just gonna start on the transition. But you haven't been given your job in the White House yet. And so you're a little bit on, you know, pins and needles. And to Pfeiffer's point, you know, we had this thing on the campaign called the block schedule, which is like the bible. It's everything Barack Obama's gonna do. And I was in the transition office and this woman who I'm gonna say her name, cuz I love her today, but at the time I almost had a stroke. Mona Sutphen who was deputy chief of staff for policy, goes rolling through with the block schedule, and it's all marked up with her handwriting, and she's like, rom wanted me to take a whack at the first hundred days. I was like, 100 days of what? That is my job. Can't give me my schedule back. It was. And the thing is, the thing that was so hard for me is that Pfeiffer and I were not in the same office. So I couldn't go in his office, close the door, and be like, buddy, you're not gonna believe what happened. I had to, like, secretly call him from the bathroom. In the Chicago transition, does anyone give.

[Caroline Rustin]

You a tour or do you just kind of, like, waltz? Then you just walked out.

[Alyssa Mastromonaco]

You waltz in. It's like. Make no mistake, it's sort of prison. Like. Like, think about the DMV. That's kind of what it's like.

[Caroline Rustin]

So in 2020, when Biden was President elect, Trump and his administration famously stonewalled the transition. What does that even mean? What. What are the stakes for stonewalling an incoming presidency? And what, literally are they doing to stop the transfer of information?

[Alyssa Mastromonaco]

You know, historically, vetting is part of the transition. It is. You know, you need your papers, you need to submit them. They need to be vetted by the FBI and other people. You're learning. I mean, the one thing that Biden had a leg up on is that he and several of his closest advisors had been in the White House for eight years as vice president. So a lot of the things that we kind of suffered from or would have suffered from in 2008 and 9 had we not been given the access that we got, weren't as catastrophic for him, but they still. They still just slow everything down. In a world where you still only have, what, like, 60 days, buddy, like, ish. To transition, give or take.

[Dan Pfeiffer]

I mean, here's 75. Here's where it matters, right? In a normal transition, immediately after the election, the president elect and the incumbent president signed a memorandum of understanding. And then teams go into all the individual agencies, and they look at the org chart, they look at the policy that's happening, they understand the budget, so they can begin to make decisions about staffing and policy happening on day one. This is most important on national security because there are a whole set of things happening, intelligence operations happening that are ongoing and adult. Just. They don't stop on January 20th because a new president's coming in. You have to know what is happening and be able to jump in on Day one. And to know what ongoing threats to the country are that you have to be prepared for. And none of that stuff got to happen for the Biden Trump transition because Trump was trying to steal the election up through January 6th. And probably, as Alyssa points out, if there was ever any incoming administration that could best navigate that, it was the Biden administration because of his experience. And he was coming back only four years after leaving. So government had changed, but not so much that it was impossible to fathom. So they were able to come back. Everything was further complicated by Covid at that time. The fact that people weren't going to be in work, that all the senior staff meetings in the White among the transition, the White House were happening in like from home. Right. Or people in the same building, but not in the same room. So they had a very complicated. Even if Trump had not been an insurrectionist asshole, they would have been a very complicated transition. So he made it much harder.

[Caroline Rustin]

So is Biden and his team just not getting information during that time?

[Dan Pfeiffer]

Basically none.

[Caroline Rustin]

You know, I want to ask this question earlier, but I saw that Trump was at the reopening of Notre Dame in Paris and had a meeting with Macron, the president of France and the Ukrainian President Zelensky. Is that normal for an incoming president to be meeting with other world leaders? And is Biden ever clued in on what they're talking about because they had a closed door meeting.

[Alyssa Mastromonaco]

I don't know what mechanism would inform Biden of what I'm sure all of.

[Dan Pfeiffer]

The, all the surveillance equipment.

[Alyssa Mastromonaco]

Well, the Chinese may have.

[Dan Pfeiffer]

The Chinese may.

[Caroline Rustin]

They're always with us.

[Alyssa Mastromonaco]

They might have given a little parting gift like here's a summary of the extra, the off label conversation that they had. But no, in general, Caroline, most of the foreign relations leader to leader contact is pretty ceremonial, I guess, during the transition and by design because nominees and presidents elect aren't supposed to be conducting foreign policy until they're president. So when you come into office, almost every foreign leader on the planet calls up and wants to talk to you. And then you, with the help of 30 members of the National Security Council, figure out which order you reply to those calls in and how you set them, because you don't wanna offend people. And there's a lot of considerations that go into the order in which you return the calls.

[Caroline Rustin]

Who is Obama's first call?

[Dan Pfeiffer]

Uk. It's gotta be the British.

[Alyssa Mastromonaco]

Yeah, it's gotta be the. I would imagine it was the uk.

[Caroline Rustin]

Our former mommies.

[Alyssa Mastromonaco]

Yes, but thanks, Caroline, but it should for the most part, it is usually kept to that, you know, phone call. Look forward to working with, you see on the backside, you know, onward.

[Dan Pfeiffer]

This has been just such a unique situation because Trump was having some of these conversations during the campaign.

[Alyssa Mastromonaco]

Yeah.

[Dan Pfeiffer]

But like Obama did. And like, if we're being fair, Obama did go meet with world leaders as the candidate. We went on a foreign trip. We sat down with all these world leaders.

[Alyssa Mastromonaco]

As a U.S. senator.

[Dan Pfeiffer]

As a U.S. senator. Yes.

[Alyssa Mastromonaco]

As a U.S. senators, yes.

[Dan Pfeiffer]

And the potential next president, United States. But Trump, because he was a recent former president, was talking to people like Netanyahu during the campaign. And so this, like, I know it is unusual that he is doing this. It is probably low on the list of outrages of the Trump transition so far, but it is definitely unusual. It's not super weird that he went to Notre Dame and saw Macron there. Like, that's not. It's not.

[Caroline Rustin]

But the closed door meeting that happened after is.

[Dan Pfeiffer]

It kind of depends on what's said. But it's like, to what end? Right. Like, what is the worst thing?

[Alyssa Mastromonaco]

He's also been president before, so I think that's maybe a little bit different.

[Dan Pfeiffer]

Like, it wouldn't be unusual if Trump was not. It's not unusual for a former president to travel to another country and meet with a sitting world leader. Like, that is not, I would say.

[Caroline Rustin]

That'S like kind of the perk of being the President elect. It's like, you know what, I'm going to go to Greece and meet with the princess. So looking now at President elect and his transitional team, it is helmed by Linda McMahon. I, by the way, I've been really loving looking at her old videos of getting like body slammed.

[Alyssa Mastromonaco]

Nothing like a half Nelson. Just scream, I'm ready to serve.

[Caroline Rustin]

What should the Trump administration and their transition team be focusing on right now?

[Dan Pfeiffer]

I'm not convinced that they're not. They're doing a lot of the same things we were doing. They are rolling out nominees, they're doing it differently. They're definitely not vetting their nominees in advance. That's something we spent a lot of time doing to make sure that we knew all of the problems before you put them out. And even when you do a great job of that, you will miss some. They're basically picking people almost at random for some of these jobs, shooting them.

[Alyssa Mastromonaco]

Out of T shirt guns.

[Dan Pfeiffer]

And they don't really seem to care about qualifications because they think they're gonna be able to get everyone through the Senate. And they very well may be right. But there's definitely an operation that's happening that's thinking and drafting according to all the reporting executive orders they're going to issue on day one. What they're working with the speaker of the House and the incoming Majority Leader of the Senate about what their legislative strategy is going to be. Are they going to do Texas first, border first, both at the same time? And so they're kind of doing those same things. They'll seem to be doing it super competently or super responsibly, but it's not like they are doing the things that you're supposed to be doing. Just the outcomes seem quite dangerous and poorly thought out.

[Caroline Rustin]

Yeah, it's really interesting watching it. From the difference from 2016, I feel like this time it's feeling much more like politics as usual. It just seems more formal and they have their shit together. Even though it's a small band aid on chaos that's underneath.

[Dan Pfeiffer]

I think it's. I see. I kind of dispute that because last time he really did pick people who we hated but were theoretically qualified for their jobs for the most part. Right. Like he got H.R. mcMaster to be the National Security Advisor, Rex Tillerson. Like, I'm not picking this, the CEO of Exxon to do something, but that's a serious. That's a person with serious credentials. Right. This time he's picking Matt Gaetz, Tulsi Gap. Like, his picks are fucking bananas. But what I think has happened is everyone's perspective eight years later about how you do things has changed. I remember right after the election, I was in D.C. and I went and saw Obama and Trump had just won. And we were talking and he said that he had just met with his national security team. I think he had done a call to a world leader or something. And he said, I guess we're going to find out if all this prep work and briefing really matters or not. And it clearly does, right? It clearly does. But because of the dumb fuckery that was so much of Trump's first term, but just some of the formal ways in which we do it. If Obama in 2008 had just started announcing Cabinet secretaries via email, which is how you would do it back then, people would think that was insane. And some of it is fine that it's changed, but our expectations for what is acceptable conduct from Donald Trump have been so lowered because we're comparing it to Trump of 16, not the previous 44 presidents.

[Caroline Rustin]

This is a great time for me to ask this question that I've been dying to talk to you both about rfk. I don't know if you guys saw this story. It was reported that there is a job application process that is asking some batshit questions. Let me give you one example. This is per the independent. One section asks applicants to pick three or more attitudes that suit them. As such, quote, I require excessive admiration, or I quote, I don't have that much interest in having a sexual experience with another person. Another was, I believe in many things. Others don't, like having a sixth sense, clairvoyance and telepathy. And as an adolescent, I had bizarre fantasies or preoccupations. Is this normal? Are these the job applications to work for the administration?

[Alyssa Mastromonaco]

It is so wild. I had to read it many times because I'm like, this can't be true, but it is.

[Dan Pfeiffer]

I have no recollection of what our job application was.

[Alyssa Mastromonaco]

No, we didn't, because these are for the Cabinet.

[Dan Pfeiffer]

Oh, these are people who are going to be in the Cabinet?

[Alyssa Mastromonaco]

Yes, these are his applications. But I still don't think Kathleen Sebelius was digging into these kinds of thought starters.

[Dan Pfeiffer]

Yeah, it's bananas.

[Caroline Rustin]

Okay, so that's not normal. What is a typical question you are asked.

[Dan Pfeiffer]

No, no, Caroline, that's not normal.

[Caroline Rustin]

Well, I don't know. Okay? I've never worked for the company.

[Dan Pfeiffer]

It's fair to ask.

[Alyssa Mastromonaco]

We don't even know if there were questionnaires when we were in the office.

[Caroline Rustin]

They just kind of bet you we just got vetted.

[Alyssa Mastromonaco]

You know, I mean, I think people submit resumes.

[Dan Pfeiffer]

Submit resumes for. They're like. They're open position. There was a website with open positions and people submitted resumes, or you just submitted your resumes and then people sort of sorted those resumes. Yeah, two positions.

[Caroline Rustin]

Okay, here's my last question for you guys before we wrap up. And this is honestly something I've been thinking throughout. Is there a petty part of you deep down inside that wishes the Biden administration was just like, fuck you, I'm not telling you anything. I'm going to stonewall this. Like doing exactly what Trump did to Biden back in 2020.

[Alyssa Mastromonaco]

The risk you run by being the person who doesn't offer a productive transition is that if something bad happens, it can blow back on you. So I think that giving people the keys to the car is just generally the right thing to do.

[Dan Pfeiffer]

There's some petty history here, George. Famously, I think it turned out when this was truly investigated, it wasn't true. But there are all these reports that when Bush came into the White House, George W. Bush came into the White House that the Clinton people had removed W's from keywords.

[Alyssa Mastromonaco]

I always thought that was still true.

[Dan Pfeiffer]

I think there may have been one or two examples. But it turns out, I think afterwards we learned there's a lot of bullshit there. Unsurprisingly, I think the way to resist Trump is not to do something big and loud in the beginning. It's that the people who work in the government have to be very smart and quiet about how they do it and try to do what they can to protect the things that need protecting, delay the things that need to be delayed. But look, I am as petty as they come, right? I would be. So the fact that I'm going to say this runs against type, but I think Trump is going. If Trump is going to blow up on his own, we don't want to give him something easy to blame like the Biden staff being petty or not. Let's give him every opportunity to succeed and then when he fails, that's on him as opposed to like easy. Let's not give him an easy scapegoat. So I, the Biden administration is doing what they can to do the transition the right way. And I think they should absolutely do that. That's the right thing to do from just a general, like, point of government's public service. But politically, in the end, it's also the right thing to do. So because if and when, and it's more likely when than if Trump fails, Trump has no one to blame but himself.

[Alyssa Mastromonaco]

Real quick, before we wrap this segment, just want to let everybody, including listeners, know that the W's were in fact, according to ABC News, the springs under the W's were removed off of keyboards in the Eisenhower Executive Office Building, but not in the West Wing.

[Caroline Rustin]

That's okay. This, if anyone in the Biden administration is listening to this, hide all the remotes. Like that's a very innocuous, petty thing. You know what?

[Dan Pfeiffer]

Even better, switch them.

[Alyssa Mastromonaco]

Yes, you're in the wrong room.

[Dan Pfeiffer]

So you think you have a remote, but you cannot figure out why it.

[Alyssa Mastromonaco]

Doesn'T work perfectly pattingly.

[Dan Pfeiffer]

Or take the phone number. Like the little thing that says what? Like when we got into the White House, there's just a right after the inauguration, there's a post it note with your name on the door and then a post it note with your phone number on the phone. Switch all the post it notes.

[Alyssa Mastromonaco]

That's fun, too.

[Dan Pfeiffer]

No one knows how to call anyone.

[Alyssa Mastromonaco]

Co sign all of these petty measures.

[Dan Pfeiffer]

Thanks for listening, Alyssa. And I stuck around to do a Q and A from subscribers. So to hear that and much more, subscribe to Friends of the Pod Again. It's the best way to directly support Crooked Media as we build a counterweight to the right wing media machine. Go get that 25% off annual subscriptions [e-mail] friends or through Apple Podcasts. Thanks again and we'll see you all next time.

[Unknown Speaker (Ad Read)]

If you want to listen to Pod Save America ad free or get access to our subscriber discord and exclusive podcasts, consider joining our Friends of the pod [e-mail] friends or subscribe on Apple Podcasts directly from the Pod Save America feed. Also, be sure to follow Pod Save America on TikTok, Instagram, Twitter and YouTube for full episodes, bonus content and more. And before you hit that next button, you can help boost this episode by leaving us a review and by sharing it with friends and family. Pod Save America is a Crooked Media production. Our producers are David Toledo and Saul Rubin. Our associate producer is Farah Safari, Reed Churlin is our executive editor and Adrienne Hill is our executive producer. The show is mixed and edited by Andrew Chadwick. Jordan Kanter is our sound engineer with audio support from Kyle Seglin and Charlotte Landis. Writing support by Hallie Kiefer Madelyn Herringer is our head of news and programming. Matt de Groat is our head of production Andy Taft is our executive assistant. Thanks to our digital team, Elijah Cohn, Hayley Jones, Phoebe Bradford, Joseph Dutra, Ben Hefcoat, Mia Kelman, Molly Lobel, Kiril Pelaviev and David Toles.

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[Dan Pfeiffer]

Life can throw a lot your way. In the morning, you might be battling.

[Alyssa Mastromonaco]

Drop off times while your kids are battling imaginary monsters or their shoelaces. But no matter what life brings, Life Cereal puts a smile on everyone's face. With 24 grams of whole grains and.

[Dan Pfeiffer]

Unexpected sweetness in every serving, it's sure to please even the pickiest eaters.

[Alyssa Mastromonaco]

Help start your mornings with Life cereal.

[Unknown Speaker (Ad Read)]

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