Pod Save America – "What Will Democratic Governance Look Like?" + Lina Khan (Crooked Con)

Date: November 23, 2025
Podcast: Pod Save America (Crooked Media)
Host: Alex Wagner
Panelists: Sen. Brian Schatz (HI), Sen. Ruben Gallego (AZ), Rep. Pramila Jayapal (WA)
Special Interview: Lina Khan (former FTC Chair), interviewed by Tommy Vietor

Episode Overview

This episode, recorded live at Crooked Con, explores a pivotal question for Democrats: If the party wins back one or both chambers in 2026, what should Democratic governance look like? Host Alex Wagner leads a candid, occasionally profane, and always sharp discussion with Senators Brian Schatz and Ruben Gallego and Congresswoman Pramila Jayapal. Later, Tommy Vietor welcomes former FTC Chair Lina Khan for an incisive conversation on battling corporate power and building a pro-consumer agenda. The episode is rich with strategic debate, realpolitik, and warnings about the threats to democracy and economic justice.

Main Themes & Purpose

• Democratic Path Forward: What should Democrats do with a congressional majority, and how best to sell a vision to a skeptical, exhausted America?
• Immediate and Structural Policy Priorities: Tackling affordability and cost-of-living, healthcare, childcare, structural democratic reforms, and the courts.
• Strategic Governance: The need for messaging discipline, sequencing policy wins, and navigating Senate/Hill dynamics and the filibuster.
• Democracy Under Threat: Responding to openly anti-democratic maneuvers from the Trump White House and GOP.
• Corporate Power & Consumer Protection: Lina Khan’s section explores lessons from the FTC and how Democrats can and should fight concentrated economic power and protect working people.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. The Senate and House: Prospects and Importance

• Optimism after Democratic Victories: Panelists cite recent electoral wins as fuel for broader ambitions in 2026 (04:17, 05:29, 07:40).

• Why the Senate Matters:

  • “The courts. The courts, and more broadly, to constrain Trump. ... The best infrastructure of democracy.” — Sen. Schatz (11:16)
  • Warning of high-stakes Supreme Court appointments if Democrats lose the Senate.

• Why the House Matters:

  • “It is rigged for billionaires...80% of people can’t put food on the table, can’t get health insurance...” — Rep. Jayapal (13:43)

• Autocracy & Illegitimacy Warnings: Discussion of Republican Speaker Johnson refusing to seat elected members, and the real danger Democrats may not be ceded power even if victorious (06:49, 07:40).

2. Policy Priorities: What to Do First?

• Cost of Living as Priority #1:
  • Schatz, Gallego, and Jayapal align on addressing affordability (healthcare, childcare, housing) as the top issue.
  • “Everything’s too expensive and people are furious about it. That’s what we need to focus on.” — Sen. Schatz (32:32)
• Healthcare and ACA Subsidies:
  • ACA tax credit extension as the “business in front of us.” (14:38)
  • “I know people personally who are facing a $1,000, $1,200, $1,400 monthly increase. They just literally can’t do that.” — Sen. Schatz (14:38)
• Minimum Wage:
  • “We should pass a minimum wage increase to 20 bucks an hour...and peg it to inflation.” — Sen. Gallego (22:20)
  • Rep. Jayapal notes Washington's leadership on minimum wage and its positive consequences (23:27).
• Universal Programs:
  • Importance of universal childcare and support for working- and middle-class families, not just the poorest (35:15, 35:43).
• Don’t Overcomplicate:
  • “We tried to accomplish so much that it’s like cooking – a lot of ingredients are good, not all of them go in the same dish.” — Sen. Schatz (32:32)

3. Structural Reform: The Filibuster Debate (27:24–34:34)

• Unanimous Panel Agreement: Filibuster is a key barrier; needs abolishment to deliver on anything meaningful.
  • “It’s all bullshit to begin with...we screw ourselves.” — Sen. Gallego (27:41)
  • “We have to just wake up and realize that they’ve already gotten rid of it for the things they want...” — Rep. Jayapal (30:01)
  • Priority must be on what benefits the people, not Senate process or norms.
• Democratic Cohesion Challenges: Cautions against legislative overreach or process-first approaches that fail to yield tangible results (32:32, 39:13).

4. Messaging, Sequencing & Internal Dynamics (36:09–47:25)

• Lessons from the Past:
  • Criticism of prioritizing infrastructure over more immediately felt benefits (44:22-45:11).
  • Pelosi’s legacy is praised, but recognition that lasting change was blocked in the Senate.
• Avoiding Policy "Soup":
  • “No new programs, nothing that has to go through the Administrative Procedures Act— all self executing, all right away. You feel it.” — Sen. Schatz (39:13)
• On Not Starting with Democracy Reform:
  • “All this democracy reform stuff is not your lead argument...the sequencing very much matters.” — Sen. Schatz (46:17)
  • Rep. Jayapal stresses that voting rights/gerrymandering must be a “very quick” part of the early agenda.

5. Should Democrats "Fight Dirty" to Save Democracy? (61:21–68:14)

• Retaliatory Gerrymandering on the Table: If Republicans rig the game, Democrats may have no choice but to respond in kind.
  • “We just have to gerrymander back, right? We just have to fight back in the ways that they are fighting us.” — Sen. Schatz (62:36)
• Escalation Logic:
  • “If they continue to be assholes, then we have to match them, right? It’s just that simple until we win.” — Sen. Gallego (67:18)

6. Audience Q&A/Policy Thoughts

• Working with the White House: Bar is exceedingly low given the Trump administration’s anti-regulatory, anti-consumer posture: housing, antitrust briefly considered as possible areas of bipartisan action, but optimism is scant (56:20–60:40).
• Affirmation of “Proposition Party”: Jayapal calls for hopeful, concrete plans— not just “opposition” and warnings.

Lina Khan Interview Highlights (70:15–98:17)

1. Transition to NYC & Lessons from the FTC

• Uncovering Dormant Government Power: Emphasizes using all available legal authorities to benefit the public— a lesson from discovering underused FTC powers.
• Corporate Accountability as Populism:
  • “Unchecked corporate power really undermines people in their day to day lives...There is a burgeoning populist movement on both sides in the Republican side and the Democratic side.” — Lina Khan (73:58)
  • Bipartisan popularity of anti-monopoly actions; grassroots public loves action against non-competes, mega-mergers.

2. What Should Democrats Stand For?

• Pro-Consumer Populism:
  • “You could literally be airdropped into any zip code and there would be a story to tell about how corporate power is making life worse.” — Lina Khan (78:46)
  • Need for Democrats to call out exactly who is driving up costs— not just “affordability” as an abstract.
• Too Much Complexity: Democrats have lost touch by becoming “insular” and “over-indexing for the views of a narrow class of experts and pundits.” Policy needs to be more visceral, less technocratic (78:46, 81:47).

3. Regulatory Rollback Under Trump

• Killing "Click-to-Cancel," Direct File, and Non-Competes: Trump administration reversing pro-consumer regulations (82:24–85:12).
  • “The tax prep companies like Intuit and H&R Block have donated a lot of money to the administration. ...Now everyone’s going to be stuck having to pay TurboTax again.” — Lina Khan (85:12)

4. AI and Monopoly

• AI as Potential for Extreme Concentration: Khan warns of the “central planning” now in the hands of a few tech executives, likening the risks to those of monopolistic railroads before...
• Government Abdication:
  • “What we’ve seen from this administration is basically total amnesty, more or less, for AI. ...They’re making weekly pilgrimages to the White House.” (86:24)
  • Need for more aggressive government intervention.

5. Price Discrimination & Surveillance Pricing

• Corporate Power is Getting Dystopian:
  • “Surveillance pricing...companies were clearly talking about basically charging people just below people’s pain point.” (95:19)
  • Examples include ride-share companies basing pricing on your phone’s battery level.

6. Pushback to “Don’t Be Mean to Corporations” (97:29)

• Moral Clarity: “What we were doing at the FTC... was enforcing the law. ...The idea that our response should be, okay, maybe we should be a little more corrupt too, is frankly mindboggling to me.”

Memorable Quotes & Key Moments

| Timestamp | Speaker | Quote | |-----------|---------|-------| | 11:16 | Sen. Schatz | “The courts. The courts, and more broadly, to constrain Trump. ...The best infrastructure of democracy.” | | 13:43 | Rep. Jayapal | “It is rigged for billionaires for the wealthiest people at the top. And 80% of people can’t put food on the table, can’t get health insurance, can’t afford their housing, can’t afford their childcare.” | | 22:20 | Sen. Gallego | “We should pass a minimum wage increase to 20 bucks an hour...and peg it to growth with inflation.” | | 27:41 | Sen. Gallego | “It’s all bullshit to begin with...we screw ourselves. ...Do you think they give a fuck about that? They don’t. And we look ineffective all the time.” (On the filibuster) | | 32:32 | Sen. Schatz | “People are interested in us delivering, not interested in what the impediment was.” | | 39:13 | Sen. Schatz | “No new programs, nothing that has to go through the Administrative Procedures Act— all self executing, all right away. You feel it.” | | 62:36 | Sen. Schatz | “We just have to gerrymander back, right? We just have to fight back in the ways that they are fighting us.” | | 73:58 | Lina Khan | “I think there’s just been a recognition that unchecked corporate power really undermines people in their day to day lives...” | | 82:24 | Lina Khan | “We’ve seen stunning levels of just backsliding at the FTC, but really across, across parts of the government that are supposed to be standing up for Americans against corporate lawbreaking.” | | 95:19 | Lina Khan | “Companies were clearly talking about basically charging people just below people’s pain point.” | | 97:29 | Lina Khan | “The idea that our response... should be okay, maybe we should be a little bit more corrupt too, is frankly mindboggling to me.” | | 67:18 | Sen. Gallego | “If they continue to be assholes, then we have to match them, right? It’s just that simple until we win. ...Then we can figure out, like, how do we get back to a normal space...” |

Notable Segment Timestamps

• [02:17] - Opening panel: Democratic optimism & Senate chances
• [05:29] - Gallego on Republican attacks on Social Security/Medicare
• [07:40] - Jayapal: Power grabs and threats to handover of the House
• [11:16] - Schatz’s 30-second pitch: "Courts, courts, courts"
• [12:55] - Gallego’s 30-second pitch: "They’re making you sicker and poorer..."
• [13:43] - Jayapal’s pitch for House: "Affordability"
• [14:38] - ACA tax credits as urgent policy fight
• [22:20] - Gallego: $20/hour minimum wage proposal
• [27:24–34:34] - Filibuster segment: unanimous agreement it must go
• [36:09] - Question: Can Democrats govern more nimbly?
• [44:22–45:11] - Critique of infrastructure as a top priority
• [46:17] - Schatz: Democracy reform is not your "lead argument"
• [61:21] - Should Dems “fight dirty” to save democracy?
• [70:15] - Lina Khan interview begins
• [78:46] - Lina Khan on pro-consumer, anti-monopoly populism
• [82:24] - Trump admin killing consumer protection rules
• [86:24] - AI monopolies and government inaction
• [95:19] - Surveillance-based price discrimination
• [97:29] - Khan: On enforcing the law vs. playing nice with industry

Tone & Language

The conversation is characteristically candid, occasionally irreverent and expletive-laden, with a persistent sense of urgency and frustration—offset by humor and resolve. Policy and politics are discussed in vivid, unvarnished language, with little patience for abstractions or process arguments.

Takeaways for Listeners

• The path forward for Democrats isn’t just about winning—it's about clear priorities (cost of living first), bold governance, ditching self-imposed structural obstacles (the filibuster), and a willingness, if necessary, to "fight dirty" to save democracy.
• Democrats must deliver visible, tangible benefits to everyday people quickly—and be ready for unity and discipline to counter both GOP maneuvering and public skepticism.
• Combatting corporate power, monopolies, and the metastasizing cost crisis is not only good policy but potent politics—issues with broad, populist appeal that cross partisan lines.
• The threat to American democracy is no longer hypothetical—it's real, and Democrats must meet it with both defense and proposition.

End of Summary.