When Life Gives You Don Lemon

Summary

Pod Save America: “When Life Gives You Don Lemon”

Date: March 29, 2026
Host: Alex Wagner (guest hosting for Pod Save America)
Guest: Don Lemon

---

Episode Overview

In this charged and timely episode, Alex Wagner guest-hosts Pod Save America for an in-depth, deeply candid conversation with journalist Don Lemon. The focus: Lemon’s ongoing legal battles after being charged by the Trump administration for his journalistic work at an ICE protest, the broader implications of the administration’s attack on the free press, and the evolving landscape of journalism as both Lemon and Wagner move from mainstream to independent media. The episode is a powerful exploration of free speech, race, accountability, and the fight for truth as democratic norms are under siege.

---

Key Themes and Discussion Points

1. The Assault on Press Freedom in the Trump Era

• Targeting of Journalists:
  • Don Lemon discusses being federally charged after covering an ICE protest at a Minnesota church. The conversation frames Lemon’s prosecution as emblematic of the administration's broader attack on the free press and the First Amendment.
• Authoritarian Overreach:
  • Alex Wagner [04:12]:
    “In the normal times, the full frontal assault on the press... where our president is, is effectively trashing the Constitution... using the full force of the government against any critics... That would be the headline story. And yet it's not.”
• Free Speech Absolutism’s Hypocrisy:
  • Lemon [09:14]:
    “The folks who... love to talk about free speech absolutism... They're not anywhere... It was never about free speech.”
• Chilling Effect on Media:
  • Lemon and Wagner describe how attacks on journalists create widespread fear and self-censorship among reporters.

2. Details of Lemon’s Arrest and Legal Ordeal

• Background of Minnesota Incident:
  • Lemon explains he went to Minnesota for journalism, not activism, and was charged under the 1871 Ku Klux Klan Act—a law historically used to protect Black Americans from white supremacist violence, now deployed against a Black journalist.
  • Don Lemon [16:03]:
    "Look at the people who were arrested. They're Black journalists. Is it a deliberate play? Yes, of course it is. Everything is calculated with this administration."
• Weaponization of Civil Rights Law:
  • Wagner and Lemon [18:12-20:07]:
    They critique the administration’s use of the Klan Act, calling it "malicious, evil, and racist." Wagner explores how this tactic whitewashes history and attempts to render civil rights protections meaningless.
• Personal Toll and Systemic Racism:
  • Lemon describes the symbolic significance of his arrest and the broader message it sends to journalists and people of color.

3. The Broader Political Strategy: Dividing America

• Reverse Racism Rhetoric:
  • Lemon sharply critiques the notion, describing it as a “trick for power and for political expedience.”
  • Don Lemon [21:15]:
    “It’s a trick for power and for political expedience. They’re tricking people into being aggrieved... making people feel that if those people are gaining, you must be losing.”
• Dividing Communities:
  • The conversation references Heather McGhee’s “The Sum of Us” to illustrate how racist politics can lead to policies that damage all communities.
• Cultural Weaponization:
  • Lemon connects political grievance to white Christian nationalism and the continued legacy of systemic racism.

4. Lemon’s Arrest: “When Life Gives You Lemons…”

• Racist White House Response:
  • Wagner [28:40]:
    Highlights the White House tweet: “When life gives you lemons” with a chain emoji, taunting Lemon post-arrest.
  • Lemon [29:19]:
    “Not surprised. ...I only think that that made them look bad. ...Even conservatives saying, okay, guys, this is way too far.”
• Legal Fight:
  • Lemon’s lawyers are demanding discovery of the grand jury evidence, suspecting unusual political pressure and misconduct.
  • Lemon [31:47]:
    “If there’s something in there, then that’s going to be problematic, really, for the government... But still, I still think that at the end of the day, it's gonna be—I’m gonna, you know, end up on top.”

5. The Risk of Independence and Being “Unafraid”

• Loss of Institutional Protection:
  • Wagner and Lemon compare moving from corporate platforms (CNN, MSNBC) to independent media.
  • Lemon reflects on the unique vulnerabilities and responsibilities of independent journalists.
• Safety Concerns:
  • Lemon shares harrowing details:
    Don Lemon [36:44]:
    “Before that, there were people who were parked outside of our home in New York City and would follow us... that was a little bit unnerving.”
• Why He Fights:
  • Despite fear and frustration, Lemon is unwavering:
    Don Lemon [39:51]:
    “They're not going to silence me. I’m not going to be afraid. No matter the outcome of this... I have a First Amendment right…”

6. The Evolution of Media and Journalism

• Authenticity vs. Imitation in New Media:
  • Lemon and Wagner discuss the difficulty for legacy media (like CNN, MSNBC, CBS) to “retrofit” authenticity in podcast-imitating formats.
• Lemon’s Philosophy:
  • Don Lemon [45:24]:
    “Journalists...are like doctors and lawyers—do no harm. And the way to do no harm to the public is to fight to have them educated, to be informed and to stand up to power.”
• Field Reporting & Realism:
  • Lemon explains his commitment to man-on-the-street, in-person reporting, critiquing the disconnect between studio-based journalism and real-life America.

7. The Future of News: Successes, Failures, and Hope

• Mainstream Media in Crisis:
  • Wagner and Lemon discuss CNN’s and CBS's struggles, the “center” myth in American news, and the perils of chasing the far-right audience.
  • Don Lemon [63:05]:
    “You don’t try to move or change a network ideologically, a news network ideologically, because that’s not what journalism is.”
• Rise of Alt-News Personalities:
  • The hosts note the popularity of MAGA-aligned “news” personalities, drawing a firm line between propaganda and fact-based journalism.
  • Don Lemon [66:49]:
    “I don’t look at those people as journalists. I look at them as influencers and streamers. …We’re coming from a more factual, informative, truthful place...”
• Community & Connection in New Media:
  • Lemon believes audience loyalty is built on authenticity, vulnerability, and community rather than sanitized presentation.
• Personal Triumph and Public Role:
  • Wagner posits that Lemon’s ordeal has elevated him as a symbol and a leader in the fight for a free, truthful press.

8. Personal Reflection, Advocacy—and Maybe the Presidency?

• On Being “in His Prime”:
  • Lemon corrects the public record on his infamous “prime” controversy and highlights his successful, late-career reinvention.
• Will Lemon Run for Office?
  • Lemon [75:00]:
    “Could it happen? Yeah, it could happen if the opportunity presented itself...I think I could be President of the United States. I could definitely run this country better than Donald Trump.”
• Mission for Journalists:
  • A final exhortation:
    Don Lemon [77:30]:
    “Go out, journalists. Be bold, be tenacious. Talk to people. Be unafraid. Unbothered and unafraid.”

---

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• “If they're coming for me, this independent person, they're coming for you. But they've already neutered the corporate media.” — Don Lemon [06:36]
• “Donald Trump is not a mature person. He doesn’t believe in the First Amendment and in the Constitution because if he did, then he would not be so critical of the press and he wouldn’t try to make us have state run media.” — Don Lemon [10:36]
• “There is no such thing as reverse racism. Reverse racism would be equality. It’s racism. Racism is racism. No matter if you’re doing it against an Asian person, a Black person, White person, or whatever it is.” — Don Lemon [20:22]
• “They did it because they want you to be afraid and because they want to embarrass you. I was neither embarrassed nor was I afraid.” — Don Lemon [36:54]
• “If you see me as successful, I’m too close to it, I don’t know what success and what isn’t in this whole streaming thing.” — Don Lemon [50:46]
• “I think news organizations need to own what they are. Don’t try to be podcasters... if you want podcasters, hire some podcasters.” — Don Lemon [56:48]
• “Some things are objectively bad. And much of what the MAGA administration... is doing is objectively bad for not only people, but for the country and for democracy... People want that reflected, the real world reflected on the news.” — Don Lemon [63:36]
• “I think I could be President of the United States. I could definitely run this country better than Donald Trump.” — Don Lemon [75:00]

---

Timestamps for Important Segments

• [03:30-12:10] Don Lemon’s career and the scope of the press freedom crisis
• [12:10-20:22] Details of Lemon’s arrest, use of the Klan Act, and the racial politics of prosecution
• [20:22-24:34] “Reverse racism” rhetoric and how white grievance politics operate in modern America
• [28:40-31:19] The White House “When life gives you lemons” tweet and public reaction
• [31:20-33:24] Legal challenges, abnormality of the prosecution, expectations for court
• [43:14-44:27] Transition from establishment media to independent journalism
• [45:24-50:48] Responsibilities of journalists, importance of fighting for truth, Lemon’s philosophy
• [55:23-58:10] Legacy media attempting to imitate podcast authenticity, why the attempt often fails
• [61:22-64:51] Discussion of legacy media’s ratings crisis and ideological drift
• [64:51-68:59] The rise of right-wing influencers and the boundaries between journalism and streaming
• [69:39-76:15] Reflection on career, age, and the possibility of Lemon running for office
• [77:30-end] Final exhortation to journalists and Lemon’s message to supporters

---

Summary

This episode offers both a unique, personal look at Don Lemon as he faces unprecedented legal and political attacks, and a sharp, systemic critique of American democracy under siege. With frank, incisive dialogue, Wagner and Lemon lay bare the stakes of this moment for journalism, truth, and racial justice. They also provide inspiration for journalists and concerned citizens to remain bold, connected, and unafraid.

Don Lemon emerges not only as a protagonist in the national fight for free speech but as a resilient advocate for truth—and, maybe, a future candidate for public office.

Transcript

[Alex Wagner]

The country feels like it's falling apart right before our eyes and the people inside it are being silenced. So we're going to East 26th street and Nicollet Avenue, which is where Alex Preddy was executed by ICE and Border Patrol. That is not a headline. That is a human life and it is all happening right now. Do you worry about your own safety being involved in all this?

[Vrbo Representative]

Yes, but it doesn't really feel like there's another option, you know?

[Activist or Protester]

And of course they use a 5 year old child as bait. And of course they're doing all these horrible bad things because they don't know what they're doing. They've been told that they're going to get rid of the worst of the worst, then they have absolute immunity. And they've been told that nothing they do will they ever be held accountable for.

[Alex Wagner]

On my show, Runaway country, we go where the headlines hit home, from communities under threat to the people fighting to be heard. New episodes of Runaway country drop every Thursday. Subscribe wherever you get your podcasts or watch on YouTube.

[Vrbo Representative]

At Vrbo, we understand that even the best of plans sometimes need a little support. So we plan for the plot twists. Every booking is automatically backed by our VRBO Care guarantee, giving you confidence from the very start. Whenever you need help, it's ready before your stay through the moments in between and after your trip. Because a great trip starts with peace of mind and maybe a good playlist. But we've got the peace of mind part covered.

[Alex Wagner]

Welcome to Pod Save America. I am Alex Wagner. This week I sat down with journalist and newfound target of the Trump administration, Don Lemon, to talk about the federal charges the Department of Justice brought against him after covering an ICE protest at a Minnesota church. We talked about what those attacks on the free press mean for this political moment and how his move from mainstream journalism at a major network to to independent journalism on his own platform has changed how he does the news, a move I am also a little bit familiar with. As always, the best way to support crooked media is by subscribing to Friends of the pod, our subscription community where you will receive more pods like Dan Pfeiffer's Polar Coaster. Our growing roster of newsletters like Pod Save America, open tabs and ad free episodes of Pod Save America. You should also check out my podcast, Runaway Country. This week I spoke to Stephanie Villarreal, whose husband has been detained despite the fact that he is a DACA recipient. And I also got into it with the Bulwarks. Jonathan V. Last it is a good, good Good episode. You can subscribe wherever you get your podcasts. Thank you in advance. So let's get into it. Here is Don Lemon. I gotta say, I am so excited to talk to Don Lemon. I just read the name Don Lemon in the headlines and follow the national news about Don Lemon. But here we have the man in the flesh. Well, not quite in the flesh, but on the Internet. In the Internet flesh. It's great to see you, man.

[Don Lemon]

It's good to see you as well. Can I say something? And unsolicited by Alex Wagner. I think that you're one of the best reporters in the business and I loved your work on the circus. I just think that when. I don't know if you remember, we did an interview a while back when you were on the circus and it was just. I loved sitting down and talking to you guys. But I mean, just, you know, and I love your work on Ms. Now. And look, I get you. I see you. I get you. Because as they say, the networks give it and the networks take it away.

[Alex Wagner]

Sure do.

[Don Lemon]

Don't you just keep moving, reinventing yourself like a pro and a survivor.

[Alex Wagner]

So can't knock the hustle. Thank you, my friend. That means a lot coming from you.

[Don Lemon]

Yeah.

[Alex Wagner]

Who. You know, I mean, we're, we're going to get to all that, actually. I'm thrilled. I'm excited to talk about our new. Our new tomorrow's, our new realities. So these great adventures we find ourselves in. Yours involving more court time, I would say, than mine. But I look forward to the day when I am unjustly charged with something. We're going to get to that in a minute. I mean, I will say just big picture, Don, like in, in these, you know, in the normal times, the full frontal assault on the press, the authoritarianism that is so clearly on display where our president is, is effectively trashing the Constitution. He's using the full force of the government against any critics, whether they are in the media or otherwise. He's trying to arrest people who don't agree with him or stand in his way. That would be the headline story. And yet it's not. I mean, there's so much incoming. I wonder, as you look out on the landscape and you do this awesome reporting out there in the world, what do you think is the biggest story of right now? What do you. Is the most important thing that's happening in all this swirl?

[Don Lemon]

Well, that is a very good question, because I think all of it is. No, it really is good. I think a lot of it's Related. I think the First Amendment, the freedom of the press and the war go together. Especially if you look at what's happening over at the Pentagon. You look at what's happening with the Department of Defense, excuse me, Department of War, where they are restricting reporters, making them sign agreements that they can, you know, we don't do that. That's one of the reasons that we're in Iran, right, Is because they have state run media and people don't have freedoms and they shoot protesters and whatever. And we're doing similar things here. So I think that altogether the war and the assault on the press, because they don't want people reporting accuracy and what's really happening with the war. You hear Pete Hegseth at almost every update that he gives about the war that he says, and this is how you should be reporting it. And then that has seeped into Donald Trump saying the very same thing. You never know that if you listen to the fake news, right? And so I believe his advisors are only giving him the information that makes the war look positive. So when he looks at the news, the press, which is supposed to be free, and he sees somewhat of a more balanced picture of what's actually happening, it doesn't compute with him because he's like, what is going on? This is not what my advisors are telling me. We're doing great. Look at how much we bond. So I think those are the two things and I am surprised that it is not one of the leading stories every day. The assault on the press and my arrest, it's way bigger than me. Because if they're coming for me, this independent person, they're coming for you. But they've already neutered the, the corporate media. So I'm surprised that it's not out there. I'm not, I'm surprised that it's not a bigger headline because it affects everyone. The press, whether you're in streaming, whether you're print, whether you're a broadcast journalist, whether you're magazines, even publishing. And so if they can tell you what you can write, what you can't write, where you can report, how you can report it, then what's the purpose of the First Amendment? Freedom of the press, then what is

[Alex Wagner]

also just challenges the basic idea of shared reality and facts, right? I mean, if you no longer have, if you refuse to recognize a truth that's inconvenient, then what does the truth matter ever? I mean, it's just information that's weaponized for personal or partisan gain. And that's not a world I mean, that makes that living in a world, to say nothing of living in a democracy, pretty complicated. I wonder if, you know, like, you mentioned, both the direct targeting of you, which is, I totally agree, bigger than you. It's meant to send a chill down the spine of any journalist to, like, the FCC chair coming out and threatening to revoke broadcasting licenses if the coverage of the Iran war is not deemed satisfactory by this administration. Are you at all surprised by how far Trump is taking it?

[Don Lemon]

I am surprised at how far we have allowed him to take it. Because, you know, the folks who are on, you know, on the Republican side, the more conservative side, love to talk about free speech absolutism. And this is. We're about free speech. And, you know, we can't cancel everybody and we want to say the R word. Right. Comedians should be given a wide berth to be able to do whatever they want and be funny or whatever. And then they get upset when a comedian, you know, makes fun of someone, you know, in their, you know, that's in their tribe, so to speak. So I. I am surprised.

[Alex Wagner]

Where are those people now? Where, like, where are the free speech absolutists now?

[Don Lemon]

They're not anywhere. I mean.

[Alex Wagner]

Cause it was never about free speech. It was. Right. It was.

[Don Lemon]

So I'm surprised at how far he has been able to. How far we have allowed him to be able to. To do it. And look, this is the. If you really believe in the Constitution, Alex, if you really believe in the Bill of Rights and you really believe in freedom of speech, if you're a mature person, you understand the importance of the press, and whether you agree with them or not, the reason that this country has been able to. We've been able to get as far as we have with this experiment is in large part because of the First Amendment. People write things about me all the time that I don't like, but I would fight for their ability and their right to be able to say it. Like, there was a profile of me that came out in the New York Times. Overall, positive, everything in there. Did I like, did I think there were some things that were out of context? It got some things, sure. But overall, I was like, okay, it's fine and it's out there. Enjoy it. And I didn't even think twice about it. For me, it was like, oh, that's great. I got a big thing in the New York Times or whatever. Do you like some of that?

[Alex Wagner]

I thought it was a great piece, actually.

[Don Lemon]

Yeah, I thought it was great. And I don't like it when they're too effusive, like if they're doing a glowing profile on me, it doesn't really mean anything. I think that they were, that they were critical on some things. I was like, great, that's good because it makes you think so. Donald Trump is not a mature person. He doesn't believe in the First Amendment and in the Constitution because if he did, then he would not be so critical of the press and he wouldn't try to make us have state run media.

[Alex Wagner]

Well, it's. The essential notion of a presidency is you want to be aware of all sides of a debate, even if you don't agree with it. And that notion of a team of rivals extends to every part of the democracy. Right. We're a two party democracy. We're gonna be a push and pull. It's never gonna be perfect. But it's not about annihilating one side and declaring victory. You've had just this extraordinary year and it's only March. My God.

[Don Lemon]

I thought you were gonna say it's only gonna get worse.

[Alex Wagner]

But no, I mean it could, it probably will for all. Especially you, Don. No, I'm kidding. Let's talk about what happened in Minnesota in January. You went out there, I went out there after you. But it was, I remember thinking like, oh boy, everybody who went out to Minnesota after seeing what happened to you, every journalist I think was way more cautious, way more concerned about where they were, how they were doing. Not because you had done something necessarily wrong, but because of what the administration did. So let's talk about. You were live streaming a protest inside a church. And I. So what were you hoping to cover and sort of. How did that all come about?

[Don Lemon]

Well, as you know, this, this is still going on. So what I will say, to the

[Alex Wagner]

degree they can talk about it. Sorry.

[Don Lemon]

So, yes, so what I will say is that I went there. There's no conspiracy, which is what I'm. There's no conspiring. A protesters, a protester, a journalist is a journalist. I didn't like. I didn't even know where the they were going to go. I didn't know until, you know, we got there and we're like, oh, this is where we are. But I went there with the intention to do journalism and that's what I did. And so as Steve Schmidt said about, what's his name, John Miller, who you know, now works for CNN and worked for the NYPD for a long time and worked with national law enforcement for a long time and was a journalist and he said, when John Miller went into the cave with Osama bin Laden, he did not become a terrorist. He was reporting on someone who was a terrorist. And that. And, and he also knew that he was going into a cave. And they didn't. I don't. I don't think they had to tell, you know, authorities or whatever, But I'm just saying, just because I was in a church with protesters does not make me a protester. And so, and if just because you don't, you. You may disagree with questioning people, it doesn't make me less of a journalist that you disagree with my questions. That's kind of what the whole thing is about. So that was my intention, and I wasn't even going to go there. I just happened to be going to Chicago to host the Martin Luther King Day Breakfast for the Reverend Jesse Jackson's Rainbow PUSH Coalition. And I was talking to my husband. He goes, you know, maybe you should just take a stop. And I said, yeah, maybe I should go there and just go. I was only there for like six hours. Seven, not even that long. Maybe six, maybe seven hours. It was extended because the flights were late, you know, snowy and all that, but that was it. I didn't even know the people who were part of the protest. They had been on my show like a Thursday before, but I had never. Didn't know them personally, had never met them in person, very little communication with them besides coming on the show.

[Alex Wagner]

Even if you did know them and even if people were offended by your questions, that doesn't make you any less of a journalist. Do you know what I mean? I just. In defense of that, I know plenty of people that I interview, and that still makes it journalism. That does not disqualify it from being journalism. And I will note in that live stream, you recognize that there are two sides here. And at one point you're like, maybe they could get together and talk and figure this whole thing out. I mean, it was like the idea that this was somehow that you were inciting some sort of offensive or wounding engagement that caused suffering and harm is like, I don't know. Just as a layperson that watched the journalism that you did, it all seems quite cocked up. And I don't know the degree that you can tell me about this, but we can always cut it out in post if you can't. Like, the case that's being brought against you is like. I mean, ironic is not the right word to use. I think it's, like, designed to be offensive and it is deeply reflective of. Of A Department of justice that likes to use race in a pernicious and damaging way. They are charging you with a law from 1871 called the Ku Klux Klan Act. And that historically, is a law that's been used to. To protect against white supremacist violence. Now it's being used against you, a person of color, alleging you were part of a conspiracy to intimidate churchgoers. As one of the country's most prominent black journalists, do you think that this is. This is a. This is a sort of deliberate play here?

[Don Lemon]

Yeah. Look at the people who were arrested. They're black journalists. Is it a deliberate play? Yes, of course it is. I mean, everything is calculated with this administration and anyone who is writing or prosecuting this, I feel that they should be embarrassed, especially if they are any sort of person of color or a woman or minority who's used to being, you know, discriminated against. Did I think about that? Absolutely, I thought about that. That's just the symbolism of it. And especially considering the history of this country. One of the biggest stains on this country is slavery. And then from slavery, Jim Crow, and everything is not, you know, just because something is black doesn't mean the other is white. Everything is not equal in this country. There were people who are part of a culture or a part of an ethnicity in this country that have not been treated fairly for the. The. For longer than this. The majority of the time that they. That they are, we have been in this country. And so, yeah, I think it's designed that way. Yeah. And it is. It is pernicious. But I also believe that there is a reason that it happened to me is to show, I believe, the hypocrisy of this and the pernicious nature of it will be illuminated because it's me. And so, at the end of the day, I do believe that I'll come out on the right side of this. And when that happens, I think people will ultimately realize, and I think there are gonna be a lot of people who are embarrassed. And, you know, so I did. I thought about that as I was sitting in a holding cell about people just because they don't like what you're saying or reporting or who you are, that they can take your freedom away. That's huge.

[Pod Save America Host or Announcer]

Huge.

[Don Lemon]

And I do think that the people who are doing it should suffer some consequences. I think that they, you know, there is a malicious intent nature of what they're doing. It's malevolent. It's malicious, it's evil.

[Alex Wagner]

I would stake it Take it once and Racist.

[Don Lemon]

And it's racist. Let me get that. And it is racist. Yes.

[Alex Wagner]

I was. I was gonna say. I think this is.

[Don Lemon]

That's the first part I should have said.

[Alex Wagner]

This is a really. It's part of a suite of actions from this administration, assisted by the Supreme

[Erin Ryan]

Court,

[Alex Wagner]

to first of all, whitewash America's racist history and the legacy of slavery by saying that all of the civil rights protections that we have in place are effectively reverse racism against white people. And to weaponize the legacy of King. To weaponize things like Ku Klux Klan act against people of color and therefore render the idea of disparity and institutional racism sort of moot. Right? Like, everyone's. No one's a racist. Everyone's a racist. White people are being discriminated against. And therefore any protections that exist in our society should be done away with because it's all kind of meaningless. I mean, I think that's the kind of natural endpoint, is to effectively turn back the clock, like, and get rid of all the gains made on race and in civil rights in the last, I'd say, 100 years. Like, I really think. And using you as a kind of example of, like, oh, yeah, see, like, this is. We need to protect the country. White, white church congregants need to be protected from the black menace. Like, don't you talk to. Don't at us about the Klan and, like, all that black people suffer. Look what's happening to white people with these black people storming their churches. Do you know what I mean? I feel like it's a way I do. Of making a white people feel better about the history they have in the United States of America, but also rendering that history, the real history of America, less potent, less. Less malignant. And that's fucked up.

[Don Lemon]

Well, the first thing I'll say is. I'll let you say that. I'll let you say that because I think it's a very cogent and articulate argument and logical, I believe. Not that I'm correcting you. There's no such. Well, there is such a thing as reverse racism. Reverse racism would be equality. It's racism. Racism is. Racism is racism. No matter if you're doing it against an Asian person, a black person, white person, or whatever it is. So, you know, when people say, well, white people are the victims of reverse racism, like, really, what is. What does that actually mean? And if you actually think about it as you're talking about black people in America, if you say something is reversed, that means that there Is racism, for the most part, which is sort of what the definition of what racism is, is against black people in America. And so I think that they should be keen. You understand what I'm saying? They should be keenly aware.

[Alex Wagner]

Yes. It's an acknowledgement inherent in it is, is, is, is discrimination against people of color.

[Don Lemon]

But it's a trick. It's a trick for power and for political expedience. And so what they're doing is tricking people into being aggrieved. That if you are not doing well, let's just say that you live in a coal mining community or you live in some community that is suffering, rather than realizing that you need to be retrained. You got to do. You know, these things happen. You know, department stores used to be a big thing. Now people are buying online, you know what I'm saying? Or coal used to be a big thing, and now it's all about technology. And unless they start making cell phones out of coal, then, you know, it's gonna diminish. And so, or. And if you're not doing as well as you think you should, because. And you see minorities and women who are gaining agency in society, they have really good jobs, they have positions of power. Somehow as a white person, especially a white man, that person must be taking something away from you.

[Alex Wagner]

Yeah.

[Don Lemon]

And not that you are maybe not qualified for the position. Maybe you don't have enough get up and go, as they say, you're not motivated enough, you're not ambitious enough. And maybe it's just that, again, you're just not as qualified for the position as the other person. And so I think that's a trick to make you vote for them. Donald Trump is very good, and especially this maga, very good at making people feel aggrieved and that. Agreed. That and fear are great motivators. It makes people sit in front of the television all day and watch Fox News and go, yeah, that's right. Reverse. They're discriminating against white people. And if you ask them, really, if you think that white people are being discriminated against, ask them, would you change positions? Would you be a black man in this society? Would you be a black gay man in this society? Would you be a woman or a black woman in this society? Most of them will go, well, hell no. Because I mean, quite frankly, white people and white males, I think have it pretty good. Pretty good, yeah.

[Alex Wagner]

I'm going to say a lot of white male Trump supporters not that interested in being people of color, to say nothing of the power grid.

[Don Lemon]

But just, yeah, but that doesn't mean that there aren't poor white Americans, that white Americans aren't struggling. I'm talking, I'm generalizing overall.

[Alex Wagner]

Right. Well, I think that's part of it too, is that it's the zero sum race game. And all of this, I will just say is explored so brilliantly by my friend Heather McGee in her book the Sum of Us, which is like the idea of if someone else is doing better, that means you're doing worse. And in fact, the example she uses is during segregation, in lieu of having black kids and white kids swim at the swimming pool together, some communities shut down the pool entirely. And that's basically what we're doing to our society. Rather than saying like we're, we're better together, there's some for all. We're like, let's just shut the whole thing down so that we don't have to deal with each other.

[Don Lemon]

Well, just so happens I leaned out of the screen for a little bit because I wanted to pick this up. I did this very similar to what you just said. I wrote about this and during George Floyd in the, remember the, the summer of unrest. This is the fire of what I say to my friends about racism and what I tell meaning mostly my white friends about racism. And it debuted at number one in the New York Times and it was really great.

[Alex Wagner]

Of course it did.

[Don Lemon]

Because, well, I just think there was a right time for it. But there's also explanations in there about what you just said and how they are able to co opt people almost in a cult like way to believing that if those people, things would be better if we just stopped talking about racism, if we just sort of ignored about slavery, if these people could just pick themselves up by their bootstraps. Have you ever tried to pick yourself up with bootstraps? And especially if you don't have any boots, how you do it, get into some real boots and try to lift yourself up and see if you can do it. But I'm just, you know, I know it's a, it's a term, but that's, it's not a real thing. And you know, so I think we need to like really sit down and talk about and come to an understanding about what this country really is, which is, I don't think that we are going to do it as long as there is a Trump administration in place. As long as MAGA and Christian nationalism are front and center in this country.

[Alex Wagner]

Well, yeah, religious nationalism, yeah, I would say white Christian nationalism is the strain of it, right?

[Don Lemon]

Evangelicals.

[Pod Save America Host or Announcer]

Pod Save America is brought to you by Zebiotics. Got to tell you about this game changing product I use before a night out with drinks. You know what I'm gonna say? You don't have to tell me anything about Zebiots. It's called pre alcohol.

[Co-host or Announcer]

It's the greatest invention since the automobile.

[Pod Save America Host or Announcer]

I steam engine. Went out, had a few drinks last night. How'd it go? Look at you.

[Don Lemon]

On a.

[Co-host or Announcer]

On a school night.

[Pod Save America Host or Announcer]

I know, I know. I had dinner with a mutual friend of ours just to catch up. And three drinks. Pre alcohol first woke up feeling completely fine.

[Co-host or Announcer]

See that?

[Pod Save America Host or Announcer]

Completely fine.

[Co-host or Announcer]

Without Zebiotics, that would not be the case.

[Pod Save America Host or Announcer]

Would not be the case.

[Co-host or Announcer]

You would still be in bed.

[Pod Save America Host or Announcer]

Zebiotics Pre alcohol probiotic drink is the world's first genetically engineered probiotic. It was invented by PhD scientists to tackle rough mornings after drinking. Here's how it works. When you drink, alcohol gets converted into a toxic byproduct in the gut. It's a buildup of this byproduct, not dehydration, that's to blame for rough days after drinking. Pre alcohol produces an enzyme to break this byproduct product down. Just remember to make pre alcohol your first drink of the night. Drink responsibly and you'll feel your best tomorrow. March is a marathon of social events from the slopes to the bracket watch parties. Tommy Pre alcohol is the tool you need to fully enjoy the end of winter. Go to zebiotics.com crooked to learn more and get 15% off your first order when you use Crooked at checkout. Zebiotics is back with 100% money back guarantee. So if you're unsatisfied for any reason, they'll refund your money, no questions asked. Remember to head to zbiotics.com crooked and use the code CROOKED at checkout for 15% off.

[Co-host or Announcer]

Positive America is brought to you by Mint Mobile. I don't know about you, but I feel like keeping my money where I can see it. Unfortunately, traditional big wireless carriers also seem to like keeping your money too. If you're fed up with crazy high wireless bills, bogus fees and free perks that actually cost more in the long run than Switch to Mint Mobile. Stop overpaying for wireless just because that's how it's always been. Mint exists purely to fix that. Mint Mobile is here to rescue you with premium wireless plans starting at 15 bucks a month. All plans come with high speed data and unlimited talk and text delivered on the nation's largest 5G network. Bring your own phone and your own phone number. Activate with ESIM in minutes and start saving immediately. No long term contracts, no hassle. Ditch overpriced wireless and get three months of premium wireless service from Mint Mobile for 15 bucks a month. 15 bucks a month? It is very cheap. It's a lot less than you see advertised for the big wireless carriers.

[Pod Save America Host or Announcer]

That's why our pal Nina switched to Mint Mobile. Won't stop talking about how great it is.

[Co-host or Announcer]

If you like your money, Mint Mobile is for you. Shop [e-mail] Crooked that's mint mobile.com Crooked Upfront payments of $45 for three months. Five gigabyte plan required equivalent to $15 a month. New customer offer for first three months only. Then full price plan options available. Taxes and fees, extra cement Mobile for details.

[Alex Wagner]

It is worth. It's worth talking about. Like after your arrest, the White House tweeted out, when life gives you lemons with a chain emoji, like the White House cheering on the arrest of a journalist, a black journalist with slavery chains. I mean, did you first of all, ever, you know, you've been in the crosshairs of this administration before, right? Like, you know what it's like to be a journalist at cnn, to have a big platform. But did you. What did that moment mean to you when that tweet went out?

[Don Lemon]

If you really want to. I'm not surprised. And look, I'm a big boy. And what. I just kind of shook my head, Alex. Like, you know, but I only think that that made them look bad. I think that. I do believe, I thought that they, that was sort of a test to see how that went over. And I don't think it played well in the public. And I think that they, after that, they quickly realized it and they, you know, they tried to squash it. They didn't go as far as they could have with it. And I do think that they underestimated where the public sentiment would be in this particular thing. Even conservatives saying, okay, guys, this is way too far. Because what happens if they're a Democratic administration and they start doing this to us? Then we're in trouble. So, you know, I looked at it and I was like, okay, whatever. I'm not surprised. You know, is it disgusting and racist and inhumane and bigoted and all of the things. Absolutely. But I'm not gonna, I don't sit there and dwell on it because I have great legal counsel and all of the things that they have done will pay off in court.

[Alex Wagner]

Can I talk about that.

[Don Lemon]

That's where I intend to fight this.

[Alex Wagner]

Yeah, yeah. Because I know that your lawyers. And again, if you can't talk about this, just let me know. But your lawyers want to see the facts that the government presented to the grand jury in order to get the indictment, because they're saying we don't really trust whatever facts the government gave to the grand jury. Like they have a history of. What is it? Your lawyers are pointing to what they call a small but growing body of case law involving the government engaging in highly unusual conduct simultaneous to political pressure to bring charges and misstatements of the law at the highest levels of government. I mean, they see this persecution effectively, and they.

[Don Lemon]

They.

[Alex Wagner]

They want to see what the government case is for all of this, because they look at what's happening to you. I know. James Comey is another person cited as an example of this government, this highly unusual government contact.

[Don Lemon]

Letitia. James Tish.

[Alex Wagner]

James, I mean, can you talk more about that or how optimistic you are that you're gonna get more insight into the justification the federal government is using to charge you criminally?

[Don Lemon]

Well, I don't know what's going to happen in that ruling because this is all public knowledge. This has all been in the public legally, so I can talk about it. So that's what my attorneys filed, and they believe that that will be illuminating. And obviously, if they file that, they believe that there's something in there that may show the abnormalities. Is that right? Abnormalities. Abnormalities are the anomalies or whatever in their, you know, prosecution of me. This went to three. It went to a magistrate judge, and usually after the magistrate judge, you're just like, okay, well, that's it. That wouldn't do it. Then they went to someone else. And I think that either three. And then he went to someone else. I think it was like three different tries or two or three different tries. And they. Everyone said, no, we're not doing this. And then they took it to a grand jury and, you know, and they say you can indict a ham sandwich with a grand jury or whatever.

[Alex Wagner]

You're talking about the government running up various flag poles.

[Don Lemon]

Yeah, run it. Yeah, various flag poles. Until they found something. And I wasn't surprised. I knew that they would try to do it because they just couldn't be embarrassed. So right now I feel that they're just prolonging their embarrassment. So, you know, we'll see how the judge rules. And if there's something in there, then I think that's going to be problematic, really, for the government. And if there's nothing in there, if the judge or if it is deemed that there's nothing in there, that it wasn't abnormal, then so be it. But still, I still think that at the end of the day, it's gonna be. I'm gonna, you know, end up on top. I'm gonna end up the winner in this.

[Alex Wagner]

I think maybe you already have, Don, in a way that's.

[Don Lemon]

I've heard that. Why do you say that?

[Alex Wagner]

I just feel like, first of all, I mean, I know it's been difficult, and I want to kind of talk a little bit about the arrest part, but it is brought to the fore in such a concrete way. The way this administration is going after people, the inherent racism of its mane. It's given you an extraordinary plot. People are really paying attention to what's happened to you, what's happening to you. And I'm not just saying that from, like, a business level, but I just mean, you know, your voice is essential right now. Your struggle is. I'm not gonna say universal, but it's much bigger than you. I mean, and it. And it's really crystallizes the essence of this administration, which is all of its fascistic impulses. It's the authoritarianism that is, you know, the order of the day. I mean, in that way, it has been a victory for people who've had a hard time really pinpointing the malignant nature of what's happening right now, although, of course, you're still facing trial. So let's talk a little bit about what's happened to you in this sort of inter. First of all, were you freaked out by the fact that you're an independent journalist and there is some safety being part. As someone who used to work at msnbc, now Ms. Now there is some safety. There's a whole bunch of lawyers that work for.

[Don Lemon]

They just say, we'll take. The lawyers will take care of this. And you just go, okay. You show up for whatever it is.

[Alex Wagner]

And that's exactly. And you didn't have that. Right. Like, you do have incredible representation. But were you. Were you scared initially

[Don Lemon]

about, like, before

[Alex Wagner]

or after or just, like, as it's happening? You're like, oh, they're gonna. I mean, like, this. This. They charge you while you're in Beverly Hills, I think, right? And, like, well, maybe you knew this was coming because Trump was telegraphing all of it. But, like, when it first happens, are you like, oh, God, like, I gotta. I'm on my own here? No,

[Don Lemon]

Alex, I am as Dr. King says, I'm not fearing any man. I don't fear that kind of thing. I am lucky and fortunate enough to have some agency and the ability to be able to fight this. And there are people who cannot. There are people who cannot pick up the phone and call Abby Lowell and say, will you represent me? And so I. For those people, that's where out of this process, I've learned more and become appreciative of the folks who are able to do this, like myself. And there's a greater understanding of what people. Some people cannot do this because I know it's a very expensive process. It's a very taxing process. And so people are all the time, even by this government. Maybe they don't have the resources to be able to do it, but I'm very fortunate. It somewhat. It's really. I mean, that doesn't mean that I, you know, I can afford to go the distance with the government, but we'll see. Was I angry? Was I scared? No, I wasn't afraid. I was. The only time I was a little bit startled when they grabbed me in the elevator because I thought I was being mugged.

[Alex Wagner]

This is when they first are charging you, when they.

[Don Lemon]

When they. When they finally did now, before that, they were saying that they were going to do it.

[Alex Wagner]

Yeah.

[Don Lemon]

And I'll let you. I'll give you something that nobody else knows, is that before that, there were people who were parked outside of our home in New York City and would follow us when we got into the car. And I have never said that to anyone, and I don't know who they were, but usually people don't follow me. You know, a group of cars don't follow me when I'm going to eat dinner with my friends or when I call an Uber or whatever. And so that was a little bit unnerving. And like, the nerve. Like the nerve. Even if you. If you have. If you have not gotten permission from a judge or a court to be able to detain me, then you shouldn't be able to follow me. You know what I'm saying? You should not be able to follow me around. So that was a little, you know, innocent until proven guilty, and then once that happens, okay, let's do it. So it was some. There was. There was frustration in that. And when I said it was a little startling, but there was some frustration in that this would. This was all so unnecessary because the reason I wasn't afraid is because I have people who are in the business and they're saying. They said to me, we're hearing your name a lot. You know, they're speaking, you know, from folks who are in power. So maybe it's time for you to get a war room and maybe you should reach out for some representation. And I did that. So I felt like, okay, if this does happen, then I, you know, I'll be taken care of to the extent that I can be taken care of. But it was also unnecessary. It was a waste of resources, a waste of tax dollars. Because the first thing my attorney did was send them a letter saying, if you are serious about this, then let us know. Let's get this process started. He will self report and turn himself in. Nothing. Instead, whatever, 20, 25, whatever, people show up and it's like, why? If you had just called me and said, I would say, okay, I'm jumping in a taxi. Give me the address. I'm going to come down. But it's a waste of tax dollars. They did it because they want you to be afraid and because they want to embarrass you. I was neither embarrassed nor was I afraid. And on the other side, I realized, once I come out of this, I have a story to tell and I have a platform. Whether people are on my side or not, whether I have public support or not, I'm gonna fight this to the end and I'm gonna do it in a courtroom, and I'm gonna stand up to you, and I'm not gonna be afraid, and I'm not gonna stop doing what I do because I am a citizen of this country. And I have a first amendment right, not only for freedom of speech, but for freedom of the press. And if there's anyone who is deserving of all the rights and privileges that go along with this right, if there's anyone, there is someone who. Whose ancestors came here involuntarily.

[Alex Wagner]

Yeah.

[Don Lemon]

And who has faced discrimination and racism and whose ancestors were. Came over in chains. And so I believe it's me. I believe it's people like me. And for those people, that's why I'm standing up. They're not going to silence me. I'm not going to be afraid. No matter the outcome of this. No matter. I'm still going to be here, still doing my thing.

[Alex Wagner]

Foreign.

[Blinds.com Advertiser]

Is brought to you by blinds.com. if you've ever thought about upgrading your window treatments but didn't want the hassle, blinds.com is here to change the game. They're the only company that lets you shop custom blinds and shades online, that backs it up with professional in home measure and installation [e-mail] you can skip the stress and get expert design advice through their convenient virtual consultations on your schedule. They're on a mission to make custom window treatments easy and affordable for everyone. Get the same quality and service you would at other high end stores, but at a fraction of the price and samples are sent directly to your door, fast and free. Compare colors, textures, materials right from the comfort of home to help make the perfect selection. Blinds.com carries everything from bamboo shades to shutters, outdoor shades for your patio, and more. All blinds.com orders are backed by their 100% satisfaction guarantee. If you're not happy, they'll make it right. Blinds.com has been around for 29 years and has covered over 25 million windows, making them the number one online retailer of custom window treatments. Right now, blinds.com is giving our listeners an exclusive $50 off when you spend 500 or more. Just use code cricut at check limited time Offer rules and restrictions apply. See blinds.com for details.

[Alex Wagner]

The country feels like it's falling apart right before our eyes and the people inside it are being silenced. So we're going to East 26th street and Nicollet Avenue, which is where Alex Preddy was executed by ICE and Border Patrol. That is not a headline, that is a human life and it is all happening, happening right now. Do you worry about your own safety being involved in all this?

[Vrbo Representative]

Yes, but it doesn't really feel like there's another option, you know?

[Activist or Protester]

And of course they use a 5 year old child as bait. And of course they're doing all these horrible bad things because they don't know what they're doing. They've been told that they're going to get rid of the worst of the worst, then they have absolute immunity and they've been told that nothing they do will they ever be held accountable for.

[Alex Wagner]

On my show, Runaway country, we go where the headlines hit home from communities under threat to the people fighting to be heard. New episodes of Runaway country drop every Thursday. Subscribe wherever you get your podcasts or watch on YouTube.

[Grammarly Advertiser]

Work moves fast. Every email report and proposal counts. That's where Grammarly comes in. It's your one place to think, write and finish. Grammarly's AI agents help you find natural phrasing, fine tune tone and confidently write wherever you work. It's the premier writing tool that 93% of users trust to get more work done in a world of generic AI. Don't sound like everyone else. With Grammarly, you never will. Download Grammarly for [e-mail]

[Alex Wagner]

it was never in question whether Don Lemon was a shrinking violet. Right. Like, that's never been your brand. Right. But I kind of wonder, you know, you and I have both made the move from establishment media to independent media. Right? Me from ms, now, you from cnn. We won't go into the circumstances of those departures.

[Don Lemon]

You're still there, though. You still have a big boss.

[Alex Wagner]

Yes, I go and hang out with my buds on set sometimes, but, you know, I'm not working. That's not my home anymore. And CNN isn't your home. And you have built a new home for yourself, and an extraordinary one at that. I wonder, you know, how that transition has changed your approach to journalism. And, like, the way, first of all, let's just say right up front, it is a hustle. Right? Like, it is full on. We're both working real hard. You're working harder than I am. But, like, do you think that, that, you know, being out there, being, you know, who you are in this new media landscape changed you and made you more tenacious and especially in moments like, you know, when the Trump administration's coming after you.

[Don Lemon]

Yes. Yes. Now, I always felt, you know, I've always been tenacious.

[Alex Wagner]

Yes.

[Don Lemon]

But I also think, and I don't want to. I don't want people to think that I'm criticizing. I'm not. But I think there needs to be more people like me. And even if you are afraid, you need to fight through that fear and stand up for the press. Stand up. As a journalist, I believe that the folks who are in the White House press corps need to stand up more. They need to do what Richard Engel did with Benjamin Netanyahu the other day. Day when they killed, you know, his mic, when they muted his mic. They need to continue to ask the question even as Caroline Levitt is calling on another reporter. Wait a minute. This is ser. Right. They need to continue to ask the question when Donald Trump is being rude. And when Donald Trump calls someone a piggy, everyone in that press corps on the plane should. Should say something.

[Alex Wagner]

Yeah.

[Don Lemon]

And if the. And not. Not ask the next question, they would say, my colleague, who you call a piggy, which is, you know, the President of the United States. I'm surprised, sir, that this actually came out of your mouth. My question is her question. So I have. So I believe that people should be more tenacious. I believe that journalists, and I've always believed this. Maybe I'm naive. They're like doctors and lawyers do no harm. And the way to do no harm to the public is to fight for. Fight to have them educated, to be informed and to stand up to power. And that's what we're supposed to do. So I think every journalist in this time should be doing that and even the journalists who are in corporate media. And I know you're worried about, you know, you gotta pay for your kids, private school, you gotta do all these things. I get it. But I think if more people stood up to the corporation, to the conglomerates, to the powers that be, to the gatekeepers, I think we would be in a better place right now. And especially the people, even more so than the journalists who are sitting at the desks or out in the field who are in war zones, even more so the people who are assigning them to these positions, who are putting them on the anchor desks, who are deciding who gets to be on what program, they should be standing up to the powers that be as well. Because that's what journalism we're supposed to do without fear of favor. We're supposed to do it. We're supposed to hold power to account. Otherwise, then you get a dictatorship and authoritarianism. So I've been surprised by, and especially my exit from cnn. I was surprised by how many people lacked the courage to be able to say the right things and do the right thing and how many people were just, just wanted to survive. And if you're a journalist, you can't just wanna survive. You have to want to protect the Constitution. And you work for the American people, not for the government and actually really not for the company. You work for the American people.

[Alex Wagner]

I feel like it's like your essence is in full flower. Like you are destined for this. Like you're out there. You're like you're out there. I mean, you're out there.

[Don Lemon]

Do you think I'm nuts, though? Because am I naive?

[Alex Wagner]

What the moment demands, I mean, but the other thing, the thing that I think people, you know, if you, if you are a lemon head, you know this. But like, one of the things that really does set you apart is you're out there talking to people on the streets.

[Don Lemon]

You're like moving around all the time after this. I'm going.

[Alex Wagner]

Which is, why do you. First of all, as someone who loves field reporting, I think it's like the essence of journalism and we've completely lost it in, in mainstream institutional media. Why did you decide to do that? Why was that important to you?

[Don Lemon]

Because I noticed that there was a disconnect between what I was hearing you Know, on sort of the mainstream. I hate that term mainstream media, but that, that's what it is between what I was hearing and I also know when I, when I did what the reason that I became an independent journalist is because, you know, I could have done something else or not done anything at all. But the reason I took the path that I'm taking is because I wanted to be closer to the ground. I wanted to be out there with people. And during the 2024 election, when I started just going out doing man on the street interviews, which I think are really important because most interviews are, man, if you go to breaking news and you're talking to people that were there for the breaking news, that's man on the street. Right? And that's journalism. And when I started talking to people during the 2024 election, I started hearing a lot of Trump. I like Trump. And from demographics that I didn't expect to hear it from. And it was eye opening and illuminating to the response that I got. Well, to hear it, considering what you were, you know, sometimes what you hear on the news and then the response that I was getting from different news organizations, like some of the liberal folks and even. And people who are liberals. Why are you doing this? Are you curating these things? I'm like, no, I'm just. This is just. I'm doing it. And then on the right. Come on our show. Oh. Or oh, this wasn't the answer that Don Lemon wanted. How this guy owned him. And I'm like, no, that was the exact answer that I wanted. Whatever their answer is, yeah, that's the answer that I want. Because I want. And guess what? If I was embarrassed by it, dumbass, I wouldn't put it on the Internet. I wouldn't put it out on my channel if I was. Or on my social media if I was embarrassed by it and if I had any sort of fear or was embarrassed by what people are going to say to me, people who may not like me. I know that there are people out there who don't like me. I get it every once in a while, most of the people, you know, I like you or whatever. And there are some people like, eh, So I actually go out and I do, you know, an IRL in real life live. I do man on the street live. And not everybody is in love with me. And I put that out there too, because that's real. That is real. And that's what being transparent is about. And so really, it's not about me personally. And I'm not embarrassed by it. Okay, fine. So, you know, that's why I did it. Yeah, that's why. And I think that maybe, I guess that's why I'm successful. If you see me that way, I'm too close to it. I don't know what success and what isn't in this whole streaming thing.

[Alex Wagner]

Well, what I've noticed is, first of all, in the new media landscape, when you break out on your own, so much of it is actually about your personal resonance with the audience. And there is a much more intimate relationship between your audience. People watch you in new media than there is, I think, in broadcast. Would you agree with that or. I don't know. I mean, do you feel like it's the same?

[Don Lemon]

Do I think more people watch me in new media?

[Alex Wagner]

Well, do they? Do you? I feel like they have a more. It's a closer relationship. Oh, yeah. I mean, like, I bet. I'm sure Lemonheads as a concept existed while you were at cnn, but now it's like a bonafide, like, subscription tier. People wear the sweatshirts like it's a thing. And that seems to be, to me, at least, unique in, like, new media. That they want that connection. They want that sort of tribal kinship with the people that they follow on YouTube or substack or whatever.

[Don Lemon]

More than anything, I think, is that they want authenticity.

[Alex Wagner]

Yeah.

[Don Lemon]

And they want people they trust. And if I just happened to be a familiar face and someone who had been out there and in their living rooms long enough for them to know me and to. And I gained trust from that whole CNN experience. But also I think that that came from me as well, as you say, as you're saying, being tenacious and then just being myself.

[Alex Wagner]

Yeah.

[Don Lemon]

In front of the camera. The same person that I am in my everyday life. And I think that that resonated with people, didn't necessarily resonate with management all the time, but if they were smart, they would lean into it. And even some of the things that were like, oh, my God, I can't believe you said that they should. I believe that journalism organizations should lean in and have a conversation about them and say, but this is what you do. But they're afraid, oh, my God, we can't do this. What are the advertisers? The audience. So I think that it's authenticity is what people want. And they want people they trust, and they also want to feel connected. When I first started doing this, it was a different thing that I was going to do. And then I realized it's like, you know, what I'm doing is very similar to kind of what I was doing at cnn. No interaction with my audience. It feels canned. And I'm just gonna sit in my living room and do a show every day called Live at Five where I just talk to the people and do the stories they want and sort of give my point of view. And it worked because that's what people want. And so now, as you were saying, it's a thing because people feel that they know me and they can trust me and that they are actually a part of something. So what I did was build a community rather than a channel or a program. And I think people were looking and are looking for community in this moment, but they're also looking for people who are flawed, for people who are outspoken, for people who are not perfect, for people who are tenacious enough to stand up to authority, even if it's from the highest office in the land, or stand up to someone on the street or be vulnerable enough to let someone criticize them live or taped. And so it's. For me, it's just. That's what it's about. And it's not really about me, because if it was about me, I wouldn't invite people into my life and I wouldn't invite the criticism that I get just for being so transparent.

[Alex Wagner]

Well, you may not think it's about you, but people who watch you want it to be about you. I mean, I think they want. Don't they want to be lemonheads?

[Don Lemon]

I think they want those things, but then I'm the one who's giving them those things. So. Yes, yes. But I don't think it's just about me. But maybe I'm. I don't know.

[Alex Wagner]

I don't think your ambition is just to make it about you, but I think that it's you because it's you. People are attracted to it. They want it. Even the people that are paying to insult you online are paying to insult you online. You know what I mean? Cause I know you made note of this, and I think it was a Times piece. Like, if you're making a nasty comment, you're paying to make that nasty comment. So bring it on. I mean, that's me paraphrasing you.

[Don Lemon]

Yeah, it's true.

[Alex Wagner]

I know you addressed this on your show on Wednesday. But I do wanna ask, because we're talking about the sort of what broadcast is trying to mimic, and there's been a lot of reporting on this, how they're trying to capture some of the authenticity and roughness of this sort of podcast universe. And CNN is trying to emulate the style of a podcast using Jake Tapper. And I know Fox News has a sort of similar model with Will Caine. What do you think when you saw that? What did you think of it?

[Don Lemon]

Well, I talked about it. I always, you know, I have to say, I just have to be real. Like, I can't be fake about it.

[Alex Wagner]

I know that's why they're lemon heads.

[Don Lemon]

But the initial thing that I said, I thought it was a compliment to my colleagues who I think are the best in the business, the best journalists in the world. And so I was saying that they don't need tricks. People trust Jake Tapper because it's Jake Tapper and he's credible. People trust Anderson Cooper because he's Anderson Cooper and he's an iconic journalist and he's built his name and his brand on being out there in war zones and dodging bullets and moderating debates and holding people accountable. 60 minutes like that is, you know, that's some high level shit. And so I, you know, they can do what they want to do, but I don't think that they should be trying to make their anchors into podcasters because their anchors are anchors and they're in this elevated, vaunted position because of that. And I think they need to own that and should not diminish the, not only the anchors, but those three red letters that mean so much to people around the world. And so it's not a. I'm not, you know, disparaging them. I'm saying, maybe this ain't it.

[Alex Wagner]

I'm gonna just take it one step further.

[Don Lemon]

And they shouldn't be trying to be me if they want to. If they want podcasters, Alex, hire some podcasters.

[Alex Wagner]

Well, Ms. Now is putting Runaway country and Pod Save America and Crooked Media on msnbc, which is another way to sort of retrofit it. But if you're talking about authenticity, you can't retrofit authenticity. It has naturally spring forth from both the person and the place. Like, you naturally, authentically have come to the position that you're at and you speak the way that you do and you are who you are not because someone was like, don, let's try it in your living room. And why don't you wear these glasses with this picture in the background? You just are doing you. And that's what, that's what works. And I mean, I, you know, the other piece of it is the tech part, which is it's going to be really hard to convince a 25 year old to get a cable subscription. Like there's just a fundamental fucking reality about who's consuming podcasts and what they'll pay for and what they won't and what they culturally and socially normally go or gravitate towards and linear cable and broadcast in general. I'm not saying this is a good thing for the news industry, because I do think there's some utility to having newsrooms and authentic anchors with lots of experience, but the trend lines are not in that direction.

[Pod Save America Host or Announcer]

Pod Save America is brought to you by Fast Growing Trees. Did you know Fast Growing Trees is America's largest and most trusted online nursery with thousands of trees and plants and over 2 million happy customers. They have all the plants your yard or home needs, including fruit trees, privacy trees, flowering trees, shrubs and houseplants. All grown with care and guaranteed to arrive healthy. Whatever you're looking for. Fast Growing Trees helps you find options that actually work for your climate, space and lifestyle. Fast Growing Trees makes it easy to get your dream yard. Just click, order, grow and get healthy, thriving plants delivered to your door. Their alive and thrive guarantee promises that your plants arrive happy and healthy. No green thumb required, just quality plants you can count on. Plus, get ongoing support from trained plant experts who can help you plan your landscape, choose the right plants and learn how to care for them every step of the way. Fast Growing trees is great because you don't know what kind of trees and shrubs your your yard knees and you don't know where the shade is and the sun and grows best, how much water, right how to keep them alive. I've killed many a plant in my day. Unintentionally, of course. Yes, unintentionally.

[Co-host or Announcer]

They had it coming.

[Pod Save America Host or Announcer]

But yes. Yeah, right. But Fast Growing Trees can actually help with that in a really effective way. I speak from experience on this, so right now they have great deals on spring planting essentials. Up to half off on select plants and listeners to our Show Get Get 20% off their first purchase when using the code Crooked at checkout. That's an additional 20% off. Better plants and better growing at fastgrowingtrees.com using the code CROOKED at checkout. Fastgrowingtrees.com code CROOKED now's the perfect time to plant. Let's grow together. Use Crooked to Save today. Offer is valid for a limited time. Terms and conditions may apply.

[Erin Ryan]

Quick question. Are you politically engaged and spiritually exhausted

[Alyssa Mastromonaco]

if you said yes to both. Welcome home. I'm Erin Ryan.

[Erin Ryan]

And I'm Alyssa Mastromonaco and we're the

[Alyssa Mastromonaco]

hosts of Hysteria, the podcast for women who care about democracy, culture and not losing their minds in the process.

[Erin Ryan]

We break down the news, call out the nonsense, and spotlight the women actually fighting back. On Capitol Hill, in classrooms and everywhere, the stakes are high.

[Alyssa Mastromonaco]

It's sharp, honest analysis featuring women's voices with humor and zero handhold.

[Erin Ryan]

Listen to Hysteria wherever you get your podcasts and watch full episodes on YouTube.

[Vrbo Representative]

The sun shining, birds are singing, and all feels right in the world.

[Grammarly Advertiser]

Until the season changes and suddenly you lose your motivation to get out of bed. In fact, one in five people experience some form of depression no matter the season or time of year.

[Vrbo Representative]

At the American Psychiatric association foundation, our our vision is to build a mentally

[Alex Wagner]

healthy nation for all because we want you to live your best life and

[Vrbo Representative]

be your best you all year round.

[Grammarly Advertiser]

Please visit mentallyhealthynation.org to learn more.

[Alex Wagner]

You know, I must ask you, because CNN is on the verge of being run by the Ellisons. And we see what's happening at cbs. We see Bari Weiss, mismanagement of cbs. A place I used to work. It has had the worst ratings they've had this century. Don Bari Weiss is shepherding the worst ratings in CBS's history this century.

[Don Lemon]

I'm not surprised.

[Alex Wagner]

Do you hear from people inside cnn? Are you worried for cnn? You talk about those three red letters that mean so much the world over.

[Don Lemon]

Yeah. And I mean, look, I loved, I loved cnn. I think CNN is obviously those three red letters. They do mean a lot, right? That there's credibility there. And again, I didn't like my exit. I thought they treated me poorly on the way out. But I'm rooting for them. And I'm rooting for them not because of the management, because it was ultimately them, but because of my colleagues who are there, who are working their asses off, who are great journalists. And I don't believe that the people in positions of power and the gatekeepers are doing them any justice. And so that's where, you know, that's sort of where my, my heart is. But I'm not surprised that CBS has its worst ratings. And I will tell you why. Because in this time that we are living in, that is so unusual when you have such aberrant behavior by the highest people who are in the highest positions in the world and the highest office of the land and where you see that there is no truth to what they're doing, where they turn an insurrection into a walk in the park, where they exonerate and pardon the people who broke into the United States capitol and smeared VCs on the wall and peed on the wall and beat up police officers when they are. I can go on with a whole litany of things. And so when you try to. Look, if you want to try to move a network to the right, when they say, look, they want to move the network to the center, first of all, where's the center?

[Alex Wagner]

Center.

[Don Lemon]

Where is this?

[Alex Wagner]

Tell me if you find it.

[Don Lemon]

Yeah, when you find the center, let me know. I just believe that there's truth to it. And sometimes the truth may be on the liberal side, and sometimes the truth may be on the conservative side. But in this particular time that we're in, if you say, I'm going to move the network to the right, people think you're going to move it to MAGA and it's going to be about disinformation and lying and racism and misogyny, because that's what this is about. This is the wrong time to try to do that, first of all. And secondly, you don't try to move or change a network ideologically, a news network ideologically, because that's not what journalism is. Look, CNN tried it. They lost their core audience. There was no payoff for them for the core audience. And kind of what they're doing now, there's no payoff for it, except if people are wondering, like, what the hell is going on. This is just like a sort of another whiplash moment for the people who are watching cnn. So I believe if, if CNN goes down the same road that CBS does, then they, you know, they're going to need a miracle to get out of it. So I, you know, I'm not surprised that they had their lower ratings because people want the truth right now. They want people to stand up to authority. They don't want false equivalents. They don't want people coming on just to lie. They don't want people who are being just booked on shows just to fight. There's nothing productive about it. People want the truth. Some things are objectively bad. And much of what the MAGA administration, Donald Trump administration is doing is objectively bad for not only people, but for the country and for democracy and people. And people want that reflected, the real world reflected on the news when they turn the news on, whether it be on broadcast, cable, or even in stream.

[Alex Wagner]

I gotta just, on that last point, I'm done. No, you're not. Because I have to ask you this. Candace Owens is always, I think, the top 10. She's always ranked in the top five on Apple News podcasts. Does that worry you? I mean, because I'm with you on. People want authenticity. But I think people have been lulled by a lot of these MAGA personalities, that they're the truth tellers, that they're the ones that actually have the readout on what's. What's up, what's real.

[Don Lemon]

But I think you're making my point because you're never going to. I'm not talking about the MAGA folks. That's. That's a cult. Those people have. The people on the right have cult like fans and viewers because it just. It's just the nature of conservatives. Maybe they felt like their voices weren't heard for so long and they actually got into these streaming places. They were pioneers. So that's one reason they're doing so well. But the people who listen to Candace Owens are. They're not gonna. I'm sorry, they're not gonna watch the CBS Evening News. They're not going to watch cnn. They're gonna watch Megyn Kelly. They're gonna watch Candace Owens. They're gonna watch Tucker Carlson. They're gonna watch people who are preaching their gospel and every. At every single turn. And if you want to be a news organization, if you want to deal with facts and as you said, shared reality. Right, we talked about that. Then you're not gonna watch those. Not because they're bad. It's just because they're truthful and balanced. If you do it right. But if you try to move it to the right, they're not even going to watch that because they don't trust that. And that's actually not where the news is going right now. They're going to watch Fox News and they're going to watch, as I said, all the other people and the Nick Fuentes of the world and all this. That's what they're going to do.

[Alex Wagner]

I'm just. It worries me, though, that they are seen as. I mean, you're saying, forget, forget it. They're part of a cult. Unless you're going to like, what is it when you get someone out of a cult? De. Escalate, you know, what's.

[Don Lemon]

Deprogram.

[Alex Wagner]

Deprogram. They need to be.

[Don Lemon]

I don't look at those people as journalism or journalists. I look at them as influencers and streamers. I'm talking about the people who do what. What I do, what Pod Save does, what the Bulwark does, what Sam Sader does. Like, people who are. Who are bringing information and have a shared sense of reality. But then they have some swag, right? Then they lean into it. They have, the editorial has teeth. You know where they're coming from, right? You don't expect to see someone calling, insulting a black woman to her face about, about a Barack Obama and a Michelle Obama tweet from the president where he depicted them as apes. And then you're going to have someone come on and go, that's not racist. And then you're just like, of course it's fucking racist. Why are you doing this? It's racist. And so, you know, I'm not talking about those folks. I'm talking about a place where that us who are doing this now are and have success in it. That we're coming from a more factual, informative, truthful place where we don't try to say, well, this is the middle and that's right and that's left. Sometimes my, my subscribers don't want to hear what I'm saying, but I tell them, look, I know you probably don't want to hear this, but here's the truth. And then at the end of the day they'll say, thank you for informing us. I may not like it, but thank you for informing us. So, so that's what's up.

[Alex Wagner]

I mean, that is an important distinction.

[Don Lemon]

I mean, look at the success. Look at Pod Saves success. Look at Brian Tyler Cohen's success. Look at, you know, it's, and these people, I don't believe that they are, they may be, some of them left leaning and that's okay, they're transparent about it, but at least they, or there's facts and a shared sense of reality. And they're not saying, well, the first lady of France is a man. Nobody's saying that on the left, outrageous shit like that. You know what I'm saying? So

[Alex Wagner]

it's not propaganda. And I think that there's an establishment, there's an established sort of baseline of truth and the pursuit of reality. I will ask you, my friend, before we let you go, two things. Hopefully you like both answering both of these questions. You are. I mean, I just, it is like there's, it's not a coincidence that I'm talking to the week this massive profile comes out about you in the New York Times. Like there's national interest in what you're doing, the fight you're fighting against, the Trump administration. You've always been in the public eye, but this feels like a different level, right? Like you're, you're in, as they say,

[Don Lemon]

this is why you're a great Reporter, I know where you're going, but you're

[Alex Wagner]

in your power, dare I say, you're in, in your prime. And I, I wonder, I'm giving you a chance, like, have, has this, what you're doing now at, you know, I'm not, I'm not trying to air out anybody's age here, but, like, this is not the normal, like, sort of metabolism, the normal career arc that we see right after you've been in the game for some decades. Like, has it changed your idea of what it means to be in one's prime and when that happens?

[Don Lemon]

No, because I think that that whole thing about not being your prime, that was misconstrued. And the one thing that I, that if there was one thing that I could. That bothers me the most of anything is that whole thing when I said, if you go back and look at it, I said, I'm not saying that. I believe that the whole point of it was that that is how society treats women. And someone who has been treated or discriminated against should know better if you have been, especially with the way the Republican Party has treated her. They're like, we don't want her. Right. We don't want Nikki Haley to be president or whatever.

[Alex Wagner]

Oh, I think Democrats, plenty of people, like, have a hard time with women over 40.

[Don Lemon]

Yes, but so, but it wasn't that

[Alex Wagner]

women have a hard time with women over 40.

[Don Lemon]

Exactly. But that was, that's how society treats women. And you should know better. So you shouldn't be an ageist. When someone has been sexist or misogynistic towards you, you should have more knowledge than that. And I think people understood. Some people understood when she's like, you know, what was the Civil War about? It wasn't about, you know, slave. She said, wasn't, wasn't. She didn't say it was about slavery and then other things about. So when that came out, some of her ideas were just not, you know, for the prime age. But that wasn't necessarily about that. I thought that about women. I don't, I think the exact opposite. I think women are the smartest and strongest of the sexes. And every show that I had at CNN was run by a woman. And our motto was, if you want something done, hire a woman. We hired all, mostly women. I had, finally at the end, I had one. My personal producer was a man, but every single, pretty much person on the show, my lead writer, woman. And I grew up in a family of all women. So that is, that's the one thing that bothered Me is because that. People took that out of context. I could have been a better communicator about it, since that's what I do for a living. That's living. But that's not what I meant. And I told them that. I think they understood it. And you know. You know how that works. Right.

[Pod Save America Host or Announcer]

So.

[Don Lemon]

So, so what I will say is that, do. Do I think that. That I'm in my prime? Absolutely. Of course I'm not delusional. I'm not, you know, I can't run 10 miles and. And not die anymore. But, you know, running. I need more sleep. I have to think about people's names. Like, wait a minute, what's. What's that over that guy? And it's like, it's your husband. His name is Tim. Oh, yeah. Just kidding. So I'm not delusional. But yes, I do think that because of the. That I surprised myself in what I've been able to do over the past two years. Yeah.

[Alex Wagner]

Do you think you might ever run for office? Oh, boy. That was a long pause, Don.

[Don Lemon]

I hear that all the time.

[Alex Wagner]

Yeah. And then what do you think of what happens in your head when you hear it first?

[Don Lemon]

I hear, I don't wanna ruin my life. Why would I invite that sort of even more criticism or whatever? Why would I wanna ruin my life with people digging into everything about me and campaign ads, putting everything that I've ever said that's deemed controversial? But I don't even think people would care about that. So I think they would know. Right. I've never said that I was gonna grab anybody by the pussy. Right. So

[Alex Wagner]

that doesn't surprise me, Don.

[Don Lemon]

But I've never said that a woman had blood coming out of her wherever. But also, I'm not a white man, and the rules are different for me. And so just like the rules, I believe, sadly, are different for women, they're different for Hillary Clinton, for Nikki Haley, which was one of the reasons that, you know what I meant to say. They're different for Kamala Harris. They're different for Alex Wagner. And white men get away with way more than women or black people or any minority. And so I think the rules are different, but I don't know why would I invite that criticism and the people who my mentors will say, why do you want to take a pay cut? But it's not about money for me. So do I ever think about it? Yes. Could it happen? Yeah, it could happen if the opportunity presented itself. The right opportunity presented itself. Look, if I wanted to, I Know, people are gonna think I'm crazy. This is gonna be the headline, and people are gonna laugh about it. I think I could be President of the United States. I could definitely run this country better than Donald Trump.

[Alex Wagner]

Paper towel roll could. But, yes, you would see market improvement.

[Don Lemon]

As an independent, though, there would be a hard time for me to run for anything because, you know, the way the system is set up, I'd have to choose a side. And so, you know, I probably would have to become a Democrat, and. Yeah. So, you know, am I at that point now? No. And I know people are going to say Don Lemon was crazy, but. Yeah, that's. Look, why can't I think about running for office? Why can't I think about being President of the United States when. And look at what we have. When anybody. Did anybody think Barack Obama, as he says, this guy with a funny name, is from a mixed background. Did anybody ever think that he would become president, that he had that aspiration? I don't have an aspiration to become president, but I do think that I could run this country a lot better than Donald Trump. You know what else I think that I could run better than most people. And I was talking. Actually talked about to my husband about that last night. Please tell me a news organization, because I was there. I've been in the game for so long, and I'm not interested in being, you know, the anchor out front. I could come in and fix the bulk of their problems and lickety split, in no time flat.

[Alex Wagner]

Boom, boom. Wow. I feel like we're making news. The Lemonheads merch is about to get become collector's item.

[Don Lemon]

Yeah, so I'm busy with building. I'm building my own channel, and I'm building my own network, and we'll see where that goes. But if I had to, like, if they dropped me into a news organization, I could fix it up. I could clean up the place.

[Alex Wagner]

Don Lemon is ready to conquer the world, ladies and gentlemen. You heard it here first.

[Don Lemon]

I can't wait to see the headlines about the president part. Oh, my God.

[Alex Wagner]

God bless you for launching your presidential run on Pod Save America. We appreciate it.

[Don Lemon]

That would be the perfect place to run. And I forgot. I mean, look at. Also, too.

[Alex Wagner]

You're definitely running as a Democrat if that's the case, my friend.

[Don Lemon]

And I forgot about Midas. So. Yeah, I totally.

[Alex Wagner]

Well, that's why I'm saying thanks for launching it on Pod Save America.

[Don Lemon]

Yeah.

[Alex Wagner]

You know, where your bread is buttered, Don. I knew it was gonna be excellent to speak with you, but you've, as usual, exceeded my conception of what was even possible, so.

[Don Lemon]

Well, thank you. I'm sorry that there are certain things that I can't talk about legally or

[Alex Wagner]

whatever, but I think you delivered, Don. I really think you delivered.

[Don Lemon]

You think so?

[Alex Wagner]

It's big time. You definitely did.

[Don Lemon]

Yes. But go out, journalists. Be bold, be tenacious.

[Alex Wagner]

Talk to people. Be unafraid.

[Don Lemon]

Go talk to people. Be unafraid. Unbothered and unafraid.

[Alex Wagner]

Just like Don. Thank you, my friend. It's great to talk to you. It's great to have some time with you.

[Don Lemon]

Thank you. And become a subscriber of the don Lemon Show. YouTube, Twitch, Substack, Instagram, TikTok, Facebook, wherever you get your streaming Apple podcasts, Spotify and iHeartRadio, there are many opportunities like and subscribe.

[Alex Wagner]

Go. And love Don. Thanks, dude. Thanks to Don Lemon for coming on the show and breaking news. It's always a pleasure to have you. Don, Jon and Levitt will be back in your feed on Tuesday with a brand new episode. See y' all soon.

[Pod Save America Host or Announcer]

If you want to listen to Pod Save America ad free and get access to exclusive podcasts, go to cricket.com friends to subscribe on Supercast, Substack, YouTube or Apple Podcasts. Also, please consider leaving us a review that helps boost this episode and everything we do here at Crooked. Pod Save America is a crooked media production. Our producer is Saul Rubin. Our associate producer is Farah Safari. Austin Fisher is our senior producer. Reed Churlin is our executive editor. Adrienne Hill is our head, head of news and politics. The show is mixed and edited by Andrew Chadwick. Jordan Kanter is our sound engineer with audio support from Kyle Seglin and Charlotte Landis. Matt de Groat is our head of production. Naomi Sengel is our executive assistant. Thanks to our digital team, Elijah Cohn, Hayley Jones, Ben Hefcoat, Mia Kelman, Kiril Pelaviev, David Toles, and Ryan Young. Our production staff is proudly unionized with the Writers Guild of America East.

[Erin Ryan]

Quick question. Are you politically engaged and spiritually exhausted

[Alyssa Mastromonaco]

if you said yes to both? Welcome home. I'm Erin Ryan.

[Erin Ryan]

And I'm Alyssa Mastromonaco.

[Alyssa Mastromonaco]

And we're the hosts of Hysteria, the podcast for women who care about democracy, culture, and not losing their minds in the process.

[Erin Ryan]

We break down the news, call out the nonsense, and spotlight the women actually fighting back on Capitol Hill. In classrooms and everywhere, the stakes are high.

[Alyssa Mastromonaco]

It's sharp, honest analysis featuring women's voices with humor and zero hand holding.

[Erin Ryan]

Listen to Hysteria wherever you get your podcasts and watch full episodes on YouTube.