Why is JD Vance so Annoying?

Summary

Pod Save America Episode Summary

Episode Title: Why is JD Vance so Annoying?
Date: September 1, 2025
Hosts: Jon Favreau, Jon Lovett, Dan Pfeiffer, Tommy Vietor

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1. Main Theme & Purpose

This landmark 1,000th episode, recorded for a special Labor Day mailbag, features the Pod Save America hosts answering listener questions on everything from political polling, midterms, and the state of democratic institutions, to progressive media strategy and fantasy football. The eponymous topic, “Why is JD Vance so Annoying?”, receives a deep dive, exploring his persona, political evolution, and future threat potential. The tone is lively, irreverent, and candid, blending humor with earnest reflections on contemporary U.S. politics.

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2. Key Discussion Points & Insights

A. Reflections on 1,000 Episodes & Community Impact

[02:10-05:48]

• Appreciation for Listeners: The hosts share heartfelt thanks to their audience, recounting stories of listeners who ran for office or became political organizers inspired by the podcast.
• Vote Save America Initiatives: Promotion of opportunities for listeners to run for office or get involved locally, especially in North Carolina, Texas, and Arizona.
• Quote:

  “The absolute best part of doing this for the last eight and a half years has been all of you… especially seeing how many of you chose not to just listen to us while we whine about politics every week, but actually get involved yourselves, which is the entire reason we started doing this.” – Jon Favreau [02:48]

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B. Looking Ahead to 2026 Midterms & Polling

[05:48-13:01]

• Polling Skepticism: Dan discusses which indicators matter for midterms, emphasizing the generic ballot, Trump’s approval rating, and economic/inflation perceptions.
• Low Stakes of Early Polls: Urging caution against overreacting to early polling or doomer optimism.
• Election Legitimacy & Trump: Examination of Trump/Republican willingness to accept results, with detailed breakdown of election certification procedures, legal guardrails, and systemic friction points.
• Quotes:

  “There’s no single moment where an election is recognized or not recognized by Trump or Republicans.” – Jon Lovett [09:42] “Trump can’t cancel the midterms. That’s not a thing that can happen because elections are run by states.” – Dan Pfeiffer [10:46]

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C. Meme Warfare and Progressive Media

[14:10-16:00]

• Newsom’s Trump Impression: Hosts debate the merits and risks of going on the “meme offensive,” with Tommy urging focus on independent media engagement rather than mimicry.
• Strategic Media Outreach: Praise for Gavin Newsom’s engagement with YouTubers, TikTokers, and podcasts as a model for progressive media.

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D. Why Is JD Vance So Annoying?

[18:29-22:46]

• Persona Breakdown: The hosts analyze Vance’s “annoying” qualities—lack of humor, performative (and real) grievance, political shapeshifting, and smugness.
• Comparison to Other Figures: Draw comparisons to Mitt Romney and, notably, Barack Obama—framing Vance as a “mirror image” who “burns the bridge behind him.”
• Authenticity vs. Phoniness: Consensus that Vance’s chameleon-like journey and palpable anger make him uniquely grating.
• Quotes:

  “He’s got no sense of humor. Like, none. Literally.” – Tommy Vietor [18:39] “He is a shapeshifter. He’s been performing different people his whole life.” – Jon Lovett [21:12] “The difference between the two of them is, what Barack Obama took from his experience was, ‘How do I help all the people who came up like I did?’ and J.D. Vance is, ‘How do I screw over all the people who came behind me?’ Like, he just burns the bridge behind him.” – Dan Pfeiffer [22:46]

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E. Foreign Policy & Other Hot Topics

[24:06-26:29]

• Foreign Policy Worries: Climate change and China are highlighted as overlooked issues, with concern about Trump’s unpredictable posture toward China and odd silence on the topic.
• U.S. Military Posture: Brief discussion about potential U.S. action in Venezuela and the trend toward labeling cartels as terrorist organizations.

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F. Guest Choices, Platforming, and Platform Dynamics

[26:29-28:37]

• Controversial Guests: Discuss willingness to invite figures like Trump, JD Vance, Tucker Carlson—emphasizing the decision depends on the guest’s existing influence and the value in accountability.
• Quote:

  "If someone already has a huge platform, they are already platformed. ... The goal here is to have a conversation where you can hold them accountable for some stuff." – Dan Pfeiffer [27:36]

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G. Working in Government Under a Hostile Administration

[28:42-31:20]

• Career Dilemmas: Advice to a listener considering a federal role under an administration they disagree with: consider joining to ‘push from the inside’ or at least bear witness, but know your red lines.
• Quotes:

  “Being inside and being a good person inside... it’s not about whether you take the job or not. Someone will be in the job. Should it be you or someone else?” – Jon Lovett [30:11]

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H. Progressive Media Ecosystem & Crooked Con

[33:05-35:05]

• Building Progressive Media: Calls for more events, better partnerships, and an energized ecosystem—leading to the humorous announcement of “Crooked Con.”
• Inside Joke:

  “Less finger pointing among Democrats. Less finger pointing. More ... something else entirely.” – Jon Lovett [34:11]

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I. Lighter Segments & Rapid-Fire Q&A

[37:27-55:07]

• Fantasy Football: Dan reveals himself as a ‘fantasy football lunatic’ and connects strategic thinking in fantasy leagues to political campaigns.
• Cookout Dilemmas: Playful debate over hypothetical Labor Day food choices with typical banter.
• Stranded with Political Foes: If trapped in an undersea habitat, most would rather endure Marjorie Taylor Greene than Don Jr. or Stephen Miller.
• Past or Future Portal: Philosophical musings on whether they'd rather change the past or see the future.

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J. Reflections on Change & The Show’s Evolution

[43:09-48:33]

• Hosts’ Growth: Increasing comfort with being themselves and favoring authenticity over obsessing about audience reaction.
• Shifting Media Landscape: Recognition that modern media is politics, and building platforms is essential.
• Quote:

  “It’s taken me a while... but I think more about, what do I want to say about this, and less about, ‘How is this going to land?’” – Jon Favreau [44:40] “This is politics now, right? Politics and media are the same, and it’s information warfare.” – Dan Pfeiffer [46:30]

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K. AI in Media & Podcasting’s Future

[48:33-51:32]

• AI Threat?: Joking and genuine concern about AI replacing human political commentary, but confidence that authenticity, creativity, and newness will keep real voices relevant—at least for now.

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3. Memorable Quotes & Moments

• On JD Vance:

  “He is a shapeshifter. He’s been performing different people his whole life. And you just feel in everything he does the space between whatever he was, which is now nothing, and what he is now.” – Jon Lovett [21:12] “What Barack Obama took from his experience was, ‘How do I help all the people who came up like I did?’ And J.D. Vance is how do I screw over all the people who came behind me? He just burns the bridge.” – Dan Pfeiffer [22:46]

• On Election Security:

  “Trump can’t cancel the midterms. That’s not a thing that can happen because elections are run by states…” – Dan Pfeiffer [10:46]

• On Progress in Podcasting & Political Commentary:

  “It’s taken me a while, and I’ve not gotten there yet. But I think more about what do I want to say about this and less about how is this going to land…” – Jon Favreau [44:40]

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4. Key Timestamps & Segments

• 02:10-05:48 — Reflections on 1,000 episodes, community engagement stories
• 05:48-13:01 — Midterms, polling, legitimacy, and threats to elections
• 14:10-16:00 — Democrats, memes, and alternative media strategy
• 18:29-22:46 — Why is JD Vance so annoying? (Deep dive)
• 24:06-26:29 — Foreign policy priorities; Venezuela and China
• 26:29-28:37 — Platforming controversial figures
• 28:42-31:20 — Listener career question: should I work in government under a hostile administration?
• 33:05-35:05 — Progressive media ecosystem and “Crooked Con”
• 37:27-41:09 — Fantasy football banter
• 41:09-43:09 — Light-hearted Labor Day and cookout questions
• 43:09-48:33 — How the show and the hosts have evolved
• 48:33-52:09 — AI and the future of news and podcasts

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5. Tone & Approach

The episode maintains the Pod Save America signature: witty, self-aware, collaborative, and a blend of laugh-out-loud banter with sincere, data-informed political analysis. The hosts are especially reflective given the milestone episode, openly discussing their own media roles and the current challenges facing democracy.

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6. Conclusion

Key Takeaways:

• JD Vance’s “annoying” factor is a combination of calculated grievance, evident rage, inauthenticity, and strategic alignment with right-wing grievance politics.
• The 2026 midterms are important, but the systems are more robust than cynicism suggests—caution and vigilance matter more than doom.
• Building progressive institutions—both electoral and media—remains urgent in the face of a changing landscape.
• The show’s ethos has evolved: it now places a premium on honesty, relatability, and the unique value of human connection in politics and media.

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For further details, Q&A, and extended banter, see the episode’s designated timestamps above.

Transcript

[A]

Pod Save America is brought to you by Strawberry Me. The clock is ticking. The days are rolling by turning into weeks, months, years. We spend nearly a third of our waking hours at work. But the unfortunate truth is that for many of us, that's time languishing away in a job we've outgrown or one we never wanted in the first place. But we stick with it.

[B]

What are you trying to say, John?

[A]

Something I got to tell you.

[B]

You say things like, I've already put years into this place. If the next move is even worse.

[A]

Not possible.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Really?

[B]

Down in the mines here. Yeah. I can't afford to take a wrong step. And isn't everybody miserable at work?

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[C]

Bring it on.

[A]

Welcome to Pod Save America. I'm Jon Favreau.

[B]

I'm Jon Lovitt.

[C]

I'm Dan Pfeiffer. Tom.

[D]

Tommy Vitor.

[A]

Happy Labor Day, everyone.

[D]

Thank you.

[A]

To mark the occasion, we thought we'd pre record an episode where we take some of your questions, especially because we have now hit the 1000th episode on.

[C]

This exact day of Bot Save America.

[A]

We did it. We saved America. Saved. Pack it up and go home.

[D]

Months of conversation about whether or not this was really the thousandth. There's zero chance it is.

[B]

But no. And well, also, by the way, doesn't a thousand episodes feel like somehow. Like too many, but also not enough? Like it feels like we've done more but also, how can we have done that many?

[A]

We got to keep podcasting until this thing.

[D]

Too many takes.

[A]

Got to keep going. You know, on a slightly serious note, the absolute best part of doing this for the last eight and a half years has been all of you. Not you, three people listening to you.

[C]

Thank you, Jon.

[A]

You're cool, too.

[B]

You gestured forward, but it was towards the people.

[A]

Yeah, it was the people who are out there. But, like, getting to hear from a lot of you, getting to meet a lot of you, knowing that a lot of you get to meet each other through the show, and especially seeing how many of you chose not to just listen to us while we whine about politics every week, but actually get involved yourselves, which is the entire reason we started doing this. So thank you.

[D]

Yeah. And so some folks send in some great stories that were inspiring and we hope we could tell them and maybe that will inspire even more of you to give it a shot, run for office, maybe get involved. Isabelle told us she started with the pot as a 13 year old when her dad would play it in the car on the way to school. Sorry about the.

[B]

Yeah, sorry.

[C]

She's 13 in America.

[D]

I think I've been working on limiting my F bumps. Doing my best. Isabelle, Isabelle's dad.

[B]

You too, trad wife.

[C]

Over here.

[B]

Isabelle just churning his butter. Gosh darn this. Trump political science.

[D]

Isabelle's in college. That does make me feel old. Becky said she'd never met another Democrat before she started volunteering as a poll worker. Now she has a community. Jess M. Went back to school as a single mom of twins to teach history and government and says she plans to run for office in 2028.

[A]

That's cool.

[D]

Bidco, real name, we're told, ran for city council and lost. Ran again and won and is still door knocking for other candidates. And then jk, which is the most likely to be a fake name in all of these, ran for city council, came up two votes short, won a seat for the county board, and now really enjoys working with the person that beat them the first time.

[A]

No way. That's a great story.

[D]

How about that?

[A]

Look at that.

[B]

Look at that. Hello.

[D]

Bringing people together.

[B]

So we appreciate everybody that is already signed up to run. But for everybody else, we are recruiting people through Vote Save America to run for local office in North Carolina, Texas and Arizona. And for everybody else, we have a lot of big races coming up. We have the redistricting in California. We have an incredibly exciting, inspiring candidate in New York running against mom Donnie. We've got. There's statewide races in Pennsylvania. In Georgia, there's a Virginia governor's races in Michigan, governor's race, Dan's primary and Chris Coons.

[A]

Yeah, nice.

[C]

I'm not. I'm sorry. No giving up my residency.

[A]

Someone did ask him one of the questions. Who's going to run Dan's campaign? So we got a couple of those.

[C]

Okay. Maybe I can move back.

[D]

I'm not a details guy. You know what I mean?

[B]

I want to be on the message calls like Axe.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

I want to just think big thoughts and let other people deal with it.

[D]

Do a narrative.

[A]

Who's chewing in the background? Oh, love it.

[B]

Yeah. Look, if there's anybody that should say, I can't, I'm sorry, I'm not on the call. I dropped a donut into my phone, it would be me.

[A]

But I will send a lot of thoughts via email to your younger staff afterwards.

[C]

Who forgets about they call a mute when they order a breakfast sandwich.

[B]

Yeah, I'll fill that role. So again, if you want to sign up to run in Arizona, North Carolina or Texas, go to votesave America.com run or just go to votes save America.com because there's a lot of ways you can help, even in these upcoming elections.

[A]

All right, let's get to some questions. There were a few questions about the midterms, so let's start there. Katie R. Asks Dan, with 2026 coming, I'm nervous about getting sucked into over optimistic interpretations of the polling.

[B]

But.

[A]

But I'm also not willing to go cold turkey. What indicators, polling or not, should I be watching? Okay, KDR is actually me.

[C]

It's like they're all fake questions. I would begin with just the simple premise that we are way far away from the 2026 elections. What the polls tell us right now says is not very connected to what will actually happen. But as we get closer, I think there are three things to watch. One is the polling question called the generic ballot where they just ask people are going to vote for a Democrat or Republican. Or right now, even though it doesn't matter, Democrats have in the average about a three point lead in the generic ballot. When we had our huge victory in 2018, the last most credible polls from like the Wall Street Journal, ABC had the Democratic advantage at seven points. But most people estimate that given how narrow the House is, three would be theoretically enough to overcome Republican redistricting. But it would be quite close but still too early to worry about that. The second thing to track is Trump's approval. Now, as Biden showed in 2022, the direct connection between a president's approval and midterm performance is not what it used to be because we're so polarized, there's so much negative partisanship. But Trump, really, the only way Republicans can do very well in these midterms is if a bunch of the people who vote only in presidential elections who voted for Trump are first time Trump voters turn out in the midterms. And I do think Trump's approval rating is somewhat connected to that measure. And then the third thing is how people feel about the economy and inflation in particular. So those are the sort of measures that I think will tell us the most as we get closer. But there's no need to panic about it yet or get too excited yet. We have a lot of time to go.

[D]

So we're not panicking about the Democratic Party's favorability being the worst it's been since at least 1990, according to Gallup.

[C]

Well, at this almost exact point in 2013, the Republican Party approval rating was worse than Democrats right now.

[D]

Okay, I like that.

[C]

Then they won the Senate and picked up house seats in 2014.

[D]

Right.

[A]

I haven't asked you this yet, but.

[C]

Let'S do it right here, live.

[A]

Yeah, that's what I was thinking. How are you feeling about the reliability of polling right now? Do you feel the same as you did in 24? Do you feel different in any way? I feel they feel the polls I've seen especially over the last couple of weeks, feel swingier to me and that like the range of Trump approval has seemed quite large.

[D]

Yeah, it's been a little bit.

[C]

So I feel better about the midterm polls because the problem with polling has been getting less engaged people to participate. And so when you get to a likely voter filter for a midterm election, you're just going to be, you're going to be more accurate. If it is true that we continue to accurate, more accurately poll higher and people with higher political engagement, which is why the polls were accurate in 2018, pretty accurate in 2022, the big question will be what happens in 2028? Because in 2024 the polls were right. But they, but I mean, not to get super polar coast nerdy here, but I know you appreciate this, but they were primarily right because pollsters used a statistical trick by waiting by the 2020 election results that is probably less reliable. Presumably Trump was not on the ballot in 2028. And then the question is, how do you get people that would solve a lot of pollsters problems if he ran Again, so big win for G. Eliot Morris, I guess. I don't know. But so it hard to know. It may be really hard to get. We may have a 2016 like problem in the polling in 2028 unless we can figure out some other tactics to solve that problem.

[A]

Two very similar questions about the midterms that I'm combining. Tyler says all of my hope for the future is riding on a Democrat midterm sweep. What are the chances that the midterms will actually happen? And if they do, can we trust them? And evil gamer asks what reason does Trump or Republicans have to recognize the results in 26? Anyone like to field that?

[B]

So we are like we've talked about this in the show. Like there's no single moment where an election is recognized or not recognized by Trump or Republicans. We are in some way, to some extent protected by the fact that elections are run in this incredibly disaggregated way. That will continue to be the case. That doesn't mean there won't be intimidation. That doesn't mean we won't be having to worry about everything from people claiming the votes are rigged, people trying to shut down counts, ICE agents outside of polling places. But Trump isn't responsible for deciding who is or is not in Congress. And we shouldn't give him power that he hasn't tried to take. What does that look like? We don't know. But we're not in control of all those pieces. We have to keep an eye on it. But our job is to put ourselves in a position to win while worrying a lot about what it looks like to run an election, even just, you know, 16 months from now.

[C]

Did you know the Constitution gives full power on who the members of the House is to the House itself?

[B]

Oh, I mean, yeah.

[D]

The issue is that if they don't seat them so Speaker Johnson not to seat the Congress.

[C]

So but here, here's how this would work. The. Here are the. Here are the so the big question was are they going to Trump going to cancel the midterms? You're naive for thinking they're going to happen. Trump can't cancel the midterms. That's not a thing that can happen because elections are run by states where the sort of the choke points are where they could really play with the elections other than all the things you mentioned that happened before the votes. Is election certification right. Where you have secretaries of state in Republican states who refuse to see to certify certain elections. Now the good news there is that most states have pretty prescriptive recount laws. And so you would go, so if it's within this margin, you have to recount it. And if, if it stays within that margin, then we're going to do a hand recount all that. And when you get to the end of that, as we saw in 2020, the courts will almost certainly side that the election has to be certified because you followed all the procedures. The second point is the House seats the members who are elected. And in a case where the election is not certified, as happened with Al Franken in the Norm Coleman race in 2008, you can go a long time without anyone. You have to wait. They cannot be seated to election certified, but election certified, the House could theoretically prevent seating someone if there was, they were, could come up with some sort of case that like this, there's fraud or it was stolen or all of that. Now that's part of it's already been certified. Although the good news here is that the Supreme Court has actually weighed in on this because the Democrats refused to seat Adam Clayton Powell many, many decades ago because they believe that he had, that his election was corrupt. And the Senate and the Supreme Court ruled in that case that, that the House's power in the Constitution was specifically around eligibility issues. So if you are 25 years old, citizen for 7 years, resident of the district or whatever that is, then you have to be seated. So the Supreme Court would have to undo, I think it's called Pal v. Morgan or something like that to do that. So there are places they can do mischief, but there are guardrails around that now. Guardrails have done us a lot of good recently.

[B]

But so I just think it requires, like it requires. It's not just some, it's not just Trump from on high. Yes, it would require a great deal of coordination and, and by the way, unanimity among Republicans and they're very narrow majority. You just like, you start to look at it like not saying it's not possible, but like it's not gonna be canceled.

[D]

I sure see a path of Trump, you know, beating the drum that this was illegitimate and votes were stolen. And I don't wanna be a doomer, but like it's very plausible.

[C]

I think the more that, I think you hit on the most important point, which is the, the, the more urgent dangers are the ones that happened before the votes were cast. It's suppression. I mean, Gavin Newsom brought this up when we interviewed him on Pont SA America about he thinks he's gonna send ICE agents to stay outside of polling places.

[A]

I would just say this, which is, I worry about everything that we're talking about and literally everything, everything all the time. But I worry less only because, say, we knew that this is gonna be the outcome that Trump fucks with it. Republicans. How's that gonna change our behavior now and through the midterm? It's not. I don't know what else we could do between now and the midterms to. To head off that possibility. So we might as well go forward and try to win the election first and then deal with the trouble when.

[C]

We get to it. It's like too big to rig, is the plan.

[B]

Right. That's all. I mean, like, I don't wanna be Pollyannaish and like, we could look back on this and be like, yeah, they did the worst possible version. Absolutely. But we can't have people so cynical that they think the results aren't gonna matter and that we can't overcome even if they put people outside of polling places.

[A]

Yeah. Because that does have an effect. If you're like, well, they're not gonna have the election anyway, so I might as well not get involved.

[D]

Self suppress.

[A]

Right. Dan and I talked about this on Friday's pod, but would love to hear what Tommy and Levitt think. Boop to you. Asks, should more Democrats take Newsom's lead and go on the meme offensive?

[D]

Tommy, is that like giving a boop to a doggy?

[B]

You think?

[A]

Oh, yeah.

[D]

On the nose.

[A]

I don't know. Whatever.

[D]

I don't think.

[B]

No.

[D]

I don't think every Democrat should do a Trump impression, which is what Gavin Newsom is doing. I think there's a more important thing that Gavin Newsom is doing that is less covered, which is a broader strategic focus on independent media and progressive media. And I think what Gavin is doing is he's doing tons of interviews with independent media. He's been on POD Save America a bunch. He's talking to Brian Tyler Cohen. He's talking a bunch of YouTubers and TikTokers. And that's what Trump did. That was really smart. He talked to the so called Manosphere podcast, He talked to conservative podcasts. He talked to the comedy audiences all the time. And he built a relationship with those audiences and he also helped those shows build their own presence and subscriber base. That is really smart. And so I think the Trump impression stuff is like getting him a lot of attention. Like, I don't know, what do you guys think in six months is Gavin Newsom doing a Trump impression? I kind of. I'm a Little bit skeptical. I think like it's, it's utility is getting attention and when that utility goes away, you probably slow down or stop doing it.

[A]

But that'd be my guess.

[D]

The strategic focus of building up independent and progressive media is really smart and long term and enduring and it's something every single Democrat needs to do.

[B]

So there's a podcast called the Diary of a CEO. He does a lot of these really long form interviews. It's incredibly popular on YouTube and, and he did this interview with a pioneer and I was interested in. I clicked on it and then I looked. Two months ago, Gavin Newsom sat down for a two hour interview with this guy. I didn't know that. It wasn't something that came across my feed but that reached a huge audience of people. That's apolitical and like whether the memes continue or not, like he's thinking about how to be the Democrats sucking up all the attention like that to me is the plan. It seems like it's working.

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[A]

Texas Hold' Em do any of you have a coherent theory of why JD Vance is so singularly annoying? The more I watch of him, the less I'm able to put my finger on it.

[D]

I don't know if it's a coherent theory. I mean I got a couple reasons. Like one, he's got no sense of humor. Like none literally.

[C]

Jokes are like Marco.

[D]

Well remember in 2012 when like Mitt Romney was such a stiff that it was like a political problem for him and his team tried to put out like all this background. It's like he's a prankster. He's a scamp.

[A]

He's a scally wag.

[C]

Remember that? And it was just like scallywag Mitt.

[D]

It was such obviously bullshit. Cuz then Mitt Romney would do interviews and be like I love humor. It's like just no one talks like that. And the Same is with J.D. vance. Like J.D. vance is a very angry, constantly aggrieved, whiny dude. Doesn't matter if it's like A podcast interview or a speech to all of Europe. He's just angry and aggrieved. And then second, like, the guy is a shapeshifter politically, in terms of his own identity. He's had several different names. He's changed his religion recently. He's evolved his political worldview entirely. So, like, I don't know. I think that phoniness and authenticity is what reads.

[C]

Do you think he's legitimately aggrieved or performatively aggrieved?

[D]

I think he's legitimately angry.

[B]

Little prick.

[A]

I've come to believe that as well. I, like, I've thought about this a lot because this question, I wanted to pick it because I'm like, yes, I feel the same way. Like, I'm so enraged with him all the time, but I don't know why. Like, he has a rationale that everything they do is justified because the left hates America and is ungrateful to him and his ancestors, who are the rightful heirs to this country. And he's fucking smug.

[D]

Who was he demanding offer gratitude yesterday?

[C]

We were watching an interview.

[A]

Yeah, he was demanding, oh, well, he's done it to Mamdani. He's done it to, obviously, the landscape. There is someone else that I.

[D]

You and I were watching. We were all watching JD Vance at.

[C]

Our office and getting, like, mad about something.

[D]

I think it was Mamdani, but.

[A]

And the fucking smugness, too. Like, when he. Because the fight that I got in with him over Kilmar Brego Garcia was. He was like, you know, I commented on the fact that, like, they made a mistake and whatever else. And he was like, obviously you haven't read the court document on this, and blah, blah, blah. Like, he's like a big. And then it's like when you read the court document, which his tweet complaining about it is now evidence in the case because the court document said the opposite of what. So he wasn't just wrong. He was like, ugh, you obviously haven't read it yet. Blah, blah, blah. It's like, you didn't read it, you fucking moron. But he's so confidently smug that it's real. And the thing. The difference with Trump is, like, Trump's tone is almost like, I know I'm full of shit, but at least I'm gonna have some fun with it. And it's back to your original point. Like, there is no humor. There's no having fun with anything. There is just, like, just dire, smug grievance.

[B]

Yeah, there's something. I feel like I agree with that. Like, I always see him and I feel like there's two parts of it. One is he is a shapeshifter. He's been performing different people his whole life. And you just feel in everything he does the space between whatever he was, which is now nothing, and what he is now. You see that when he's in the donut shop. You see that. Like that. There's just quiet when he's not putting on a show. It's so quiet and so stuck and awkward and strange. And I think there's rage in him about all of that. You can feel it from him. But the other part of it is he made it. He made it. He made it out of Ohio. He made it to the heights of liberal elite culture. Then he switched sides and made it to the very top of right wing culture and he's still fucking furious. It's not working. Like, it doesn't. He's not happy. He seems angry all the time. Like he's not getting the meaning from it. He hopes. And like, who could be responsible for that? It's not him. It's not Trump. He's doing everything he's supposed to do. It's us, it's the liberals. It's the left.

[D]

Text from Michael o'. Neill. Incoming. He made it out of Ohio.

[B]

Out of.

[A]

And my wife.

[B]

Well, he made it out of a tough part of Ohio.

[D]

You know, he.

[B]

He had like a rough go of it. I mean, I, I didn't watch the movie, but the trailer with him close looked rough. She was in that moo moo. It seemed like it was tough. I don't know what actually happened in his childhood, but I think a lot of that's really. I don't know.

[A]

I will all this to say though, I still think he is a very dangerous. Not just dangerous for what he can do governing wise, but in 2028, I do not underestimate him as a very strong candidate. Even though he does not have the char clearly that Donald Trump has or a lot of other politicians.

[C]

He is a incredibly dangerous human being. He is someone who's very interesting to think of in comparison to Barack Obama because on paper there's the similar background of JD Vance is vice president of states now because of the way he told his own story, similar to how Barack Obama did both in Dreams of My Father and the speech. And they both come from what are really, really hard backgrounds. Obama sent him a single mother, father leaves on food stamps. Like J.D. vance's story is told in a movie trailer. But the difference between the two of them is what Barack Obama took from his experience was like, how do I help all the people who came up like I did? And J.D. vance is how do I screw over all the people who came behind me? Like, he just burns the bridge behind him. And it is like, it's very malicious. It's like, shame of where he came from as opposed to understanding his true story and how that should inform his values.

[A]

Ben Rhodes and I have been talking about this a lot because it does feel like when we were talking about that Claremont speech and we talked about it on offline, too, that he is the almost mirror image of Obama, the story. Cause they both have these stories, but they both went, like, very different ways.

[B]

And they don't worship an awesome God in the blue stadium. That's the problem.

[A]

Yeah, right. And fuck Little League.

[C]

Yeah. Yeah.

[A]

All right. This is from over under Tommy. What do you think is the top foreign policy issue that we should be paying more attention to, talking more about?

[D]

I mean, I think it's an obvious one, but it's climate change. Climate change, sure. I think China.

[A]

It's.

[D]

It's weird because Trump ran on being tough on China. It was like the centerpiece of his populist pitch, and now it's just absent from the conversation. And it's sort of weird to me, like. And then I think as president, he's been soft on China. Like, he recently agreed to let Nvidia sell these, like, pretty high powered AI chips to the Chinese. Very weird. He's been soft on Taiwan. The tariffs have been all over the place. And then Trump made this announcement the other day where he's said we would allow 600,000 Chinese students into the United States to study. And it's actually inflamed the right wing and it's just hard to understand. And so Ben and I are going to. Rhodes and I are going to dig into this deeper on POD Save the World next week. But I do think, like, given the stakes involved, it's odd that there's not more conversation about it.

[A]

Can I ask you what's going on in Venezuela? Are we going to war with Venezuela?

[B]

What is happening?

[C]

Are we attacking them?

[D]

They're sending a bunch of naval ships and assets down to the region for, like, counter cartel something to interdict boats? No. Well, there's been a steady kind of effort to name drug cartels and gangs as terrorist organizations and to officially designate them and to sort of like, socialize. This idea of going to war with cartels with or without the approval of the countries involved where the cartels are actually working, like Mexico, for example. And now we're setting naval assets down to the region like that. It feels like they are kind of trying to merge the war on drugs and the war on terror and like the immigration here. Yeah.

[C]

Do you think they have read the book or seen the movie Clear and Present Danger?

[D]

Probably not.

[C]

Or the movie Sicario Day of the Saldado, which this is exact plot of?

[D]

I've not seen that, Dan.

[B]

I think about the movie Clear and Present Danger all the time. It's one of movies that are part of a canon of political thrillers where the end result is someone tells the truth publicly to solve the problem. And if you imagine now a deep stater going for Congress and saying actually President Trump did this in a corrupt way, the credits don't roll. You know, the problem isn't solved.

[A]

It's so funny. We've a thousand episodes. I feel like we've had this conversation.

[C]

We did in fact. And I remember because the last time I said it's also the plot of Lioness Season Special operations Lioness Season two. And you guys said what the hell is that? And so I left that out here. It was actually the last time we did a mailbag, to be clear.

[A]

Oh my gosh. Wow.

[B]

Long time ago. Hey. Hey. Is a good enough point to hear it again.

[A]

Who is the most controversial guest that you would low key have on the show?

[B]

You can't low key have a guest. You can't ironically have a guest. But yeah, who would we want?

[A]

Yeah. No, I didn't.

[B]

I know, I know. I'm just quoting. I know. I'm just thinking about it.

[C]

Isn't the question doesn't it come down to would you have Trump on the show?

[A]

Yeah, of course. For sure. Yeah.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

J.D.

[D]

Vance.

[A]

Sure. Yeah. Joe Biden.

[D]

He won't come on. Hunter. I think Tucker Carlson be interesting.

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

I think this gets.

[A]

Did you ask him about his new 911 truther documentary that he's.

[D]

No, I'm unaware of that.

[C]

But you would ask him if he was on.

[D]

Well, I'll be honest for the listeners. Like I reached out to him when he was talking about his opposition to the US bombing Iran and asked if he would come on. He declined but he was polite about it. But I think he occupies an interesting space where he's clearly maga, has some very extreme views that I find abhorrent but also doesn't always toe the party line in a way that is interesting and I think makes him powerful in.

[B]

That space and Then there's the creeping anti Semitism that he's more and more flagrantly putting on display. That's part of it, too. Yeah.

[D]

I don't know.

[C]

It gets to the bigger question, which we get a lot depending on we have guests, is like, why are you platforming these people? And I think one of the points I think we've tried to make to people is if someone already has a huge platform, they are platforms. They are already platforms. Right. And so the goal here is to have a conversation where you can hold them accountable for some stuff. You can ask hard questions, you can engage in a conversation on. Like, at least you put Tucker across in like an area. Yeah.

[D]

My goal with Tucker would have been to talk about why going to war with Iran is a bad idea and why Republicans and Democrats both agree that Donald Trump shouldn't get sucked into this conflict.

[A]

Yeah. Someone who's influential. You can't stop the influence. So just by not having them on different shows.

[B]

Yeah, we've tried that. We've tried that.

[A]

Do you remember, remember Twitter?

[B]

Twitter and Trump and everyone got upset. Bernie Sanders talked to Joe Rogan and it's like, well, that didn't work, did it?

[A]

You guys have any controversial guests you'd have on? Mine would be Matt Iglesias. Kidding.

[B]

I just don't even think about it that way anymore. I just think that that's not a way to think of whoever would be interesting to talk to.

[A]

Biggest Dickus asks. Didn't make that up. Serious question I'd really like to hear the crooked people's opinion on. I'm a government side civil defense attorney and I'm being softly recruited to be a civil assistant U.S. attorney in a major metropolitan city. I'm here, so it's fair to say I don't share the politics of the administration here being our discord. This is a job I've really always wanted, but the realities of the moment make me want to run away. Is there any value or realistic need for people like me who care are ethical, et cetera, in joining the federal government at this time or presuming that eventually we're back in control? Would I just be setting myself up to be purged and then hit the market with a scarlet letter on me? I thought this was interesting.

[D]

Can I ask a question that someone else can answer? The substance. Do you think you end up with the discord name Biggest Dickus because you join to, like, talk about Call of duty when you're 13 and then your interests evolve over time?

[B]

Right, right.

[A]

I had thought about why.

[D]

And all of a sudden you just have the name Biggest Dickus and you don't even realize.

[C]

You remember, you remember messaging important communications advice to someone named Yum Peach Ice Cream.

[A]

Yes, that was our friend Bill Burton.

[C]

On AOL messenger, the of our times.

[A]

Yes. Yes, I thought about this one. I think I would not have said go in to the administration in the first term. I think in this term you do it. And I think you try to be a reasonable voice. You try to push things in the right direction and failing that, at least be there to document what's going on and to hopefully tell people. I kind of think that's the situation we're in right now.

[C]

Go in and take copious notes.

[A]

Yeah, I mean, I do like.

[B]

And that's, yeah. Like that specific role. Right. Would be. You'd have a pretty, there's like a, there's a pretty big kind of like yes or no question around whether or not you should be there when you are sort of handed a case. You're like, oh, this is about trumped up charges against Kilmar, Abrego Garcia. I'm out. But until then, being inside and being a good person inside, like, it's not about whether you take the job or not. Someone will be in the job. Should it be you or should it be somebody else?

[D]

Right.

[A]

And by the way, the people who quit because they didn't want to bring the case against Abrego, Garcia and Tennessee, that was a signal to everyone else and to future judges and future courtrooms that like, yeah, this is a fucked up case.

[D]

Yeah, I just, I guess I don't know how much discretion you have in these jobs, really. I defaulted to where you were. Like, I think take the job, see if you can improve it from within. The person who is going to take it if you don't, will probably be worse. But yeah, at some point you're going to get asked to prosecute the dude through a hoagie and you know, then it's nut cutting time and you walk out.

[A]

Yeah, I don't, I don't think you, like, you stay there forever.

[B]

Right.

[A]

I mean, I'm thinking about all the CDC folks that just got pushed out, right. And they were like, look, didn't agree with them. Wanted to try to make it work. Tried my hardest to like, you know, do the Maha agenda with as much integrity as we could have and to make it as best as possible. And it just didn't work.

[D]

You know, Can I just read for everyone a quick Maha headline?

[A]

Yes, please.

[D]

I just Want everyone to know how healthy we are making this nation. I'm vamping because this Twitter is slowly, slowly loading. New York Times headline, Pediatric brain Cancer group to lose federal funding. A network dedicated to early phase trials of treatments for children with brain cancer will be phased out. Thank you very much to RFK Jr, the HHS team, and everyone at the Maha World. Making us healthier by, you know, throwing kids out of a trial for pediatric brain tumors.

[C]

Can I give you another MAHA headline from today? Also from the New York Times, the Dr. Osrun center for Medicare and Medicaid Services today is launching a pilot program where they will now require prior authorization for medical procedures. Because normally in Medicare, you do not need that. They just grant it. And they've hired AI companies who are going to use AI to decide which are needed and which aren't.

[D]

AI death panels and the AI death robot death panels.

[A]

That's what we're.

[C]

And the AI companies make money based on the savings they get Medicare, so they're financially incentivized to deny care to seniors on Medicare.

[A]

Pilot program in six states. Hope it's Palantir swing states. I notice Arizona's on that. On that. On that list. So how do we not make a.

[D]

Thing out of AI death panels? I feel like.

[A]

I know, I know. It's like, what are we doing Democrats?

[B]

The AI death panels are distraction. From what?

[A]

From the pediatric counselors. From what? From what? The tariffs. All right, friendly cabbager merchant. What does Crooked see as the next steps for a strong progressive media ecosystem? A convention or policy event similar to what MAGA has. Media partnerships consolidation. Question mark. Boy, do we have an event for you guys. It's called Crooked Con.

[B]

It's called Crooked Con.

[D]

I hope Crooked Con is much like tpusa where there's alleged fingering in the lobby. There's fist fights between MAGA influencers.

[B]

I'm sorry, I've just heard. This is the first I'm hearing a supposed fingering.

[A]

Oh, my God.

[D]

Dude, you got to read about Will Summer. You might have been on vacation when this came out. Will Summer at the Bulwark did a long report on a huge Twitter fight between some MAGA influencer types that revolved around an alleged incident.

[C]

Alleged?

[B]

That's right.

[D]

Consensual usa. Oh, yeah, very much.

[B]

Yeah.

[D]

She's in a public space.

[A]

Consensual. But, like, you know, people might have been married and there's all these likes, like, oh, apparently a lot of shit goes down at TP USA of a sexual nature.

[D]

Yeah. So Crooked Con is Going to be like that.

[A]

Crookedcon.com. get your tickets.

[B]

Meet the love of your life.

[A]

See you in the lobby.

[B]

Meet the love of your life or meet the love of your weekend. Huh?

[C]

Did you guys read that directly for the marketing team's pitch or.

[A]

I think that works.

[D]

That's pretty good.

[A]

Anyone else want to pitch crooked? I mean, I think that was the best pitch for it, but. Oh, yeah, we're going to have a good time.

[B]

Less pointing fingers among Democrats.

[A]

Less finger pointing.

[B]

Less finger pointing.

[A]

More the circular firing squad. Something else entirely.

[B]

I'm triggered. Oh, boy.

[C]

What was that, Tommy about?

[B]

I'm sorry. Oh, sorry. Get back to your butter churning.

[A]

This is my bad.

[B]

I understand you have a new sourdough. If you're starting, got a new starter.

[A]

Oh, boy.

[C]

Well, I guess he technically did not use profanity there.

[B]

That's right. That's true.

[A]

That is true. We're excited about CricketCon. It's filling up fast.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

We're gonna pod save America the night before on Still Care About It. Jesus. We're gonna pod save America the night before. November 6th, live show. We haven't done a live show in a while.

[B]

I know.

[A]

And then on Friday the 7th, we're just gonna. We're gonna have all these panels. They're not robot death panels. They're just. We're gonna have people, really smart, great people could do it.

[C]

Death panel. Some of the brightest minds in the party.

[A]

Some of the brightest minds in the party.

[C]

Politicians.

[B]

Yeah. Some overlap in that Venn diagram.

[A]

Hopefully more as we go along. We're gonna have some good conversations and, you know, we hope to see you all there. Cricketcon.com foreign.

[B]

Is brought to you by HIMSS. HIMSS can't solve snoring or blanket stealing, but when it comes to performance, Tommy, they've got you covered rock solid. Take control of ED with personalized treatments made with proven ingredients prescribed by licensed providers 100% online. Through HIMS, you can access personalized prescription treatment options for ED like hard mints and sex RS. Plus what? Climax Control. If prescribed, HIMSs offers access to ED treatment options ranging from Hardman's to trusted generics that cost 95% less than brand names. You shouldn't have to go out of your way to feel like yourself. HIMSS brings expert care straight to you with 100% online access to personalized treatments that put your goals first or goal Single goal. Seems to be pretty simple. One of the goals is pretty simple, you know?

[A]

Yep.

[B]

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[E]

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[A]

Do any of you guys play fantasy football? Are you excited for football in general this year? Are the Pats back?

[C]

Do you want to start with the Pats, Tommy?

[D]

I don't know if we're back, but we're better. I mean, Drake may look good, Mike vrabel's good. Josh McDaniels is back picking up Stefon Diggs, Trevian Anderson. Yeah, we got some, we got some good players.

[C]

So I play fantasy football. This is, I am a. I play a lot of fantasy football. It's something, it's really a.

[A]

How are you in multiple leagues?

[C]

I'm in multiple leagues.

[D]

That's hard to keep track of, Dan.

[C]

Well, I'm in two main leagues. I have a dynasty league on top of that.

[A]

Okay.

[C]

And now I now play best ball fantasy football, which is you. Basically you pick your, you draft your team at the beginning of the year. You play in like large field tournaments and then you don't have to do anything. It just takes the best scores. You have to manage it.

[A]

That is so much to keep track of.

[C]

Well, the best ball thing, once you do it, it's done.

[A]

I wasn't too big and I was like I could barely fucking pay attention.

[C]

I think more people in politics should do fancy football or I'm not going to urge people to do gambling. But I do think there is like a real lesson in understanding that it's applicable to political strategy. There's understanding value and understanding ceiling versus floor outcomes, because that's what you're always trying to pick. You're trying to find someone who has the best possible outcome and you're willing to take on additional risks to do that. And the Democratic Party lives in a world of high floor, low ceiling in all of our decision making. But yeah, I am a fantasy football lunatic. I really picked it up during the pandemic and haven't let it go.

[A]

You know, I moved out here in 2014 and that was like the last year I paid attention to sports in any way because my head started getting like so into politics. And every year I'm always like, I think I want to get like, it's because baseball's really. There's just like so many fucking baseball games. But football is like really fun every Sunday to watch football. And every year I'm like, I'll either do fantasy football or something that like makes me pay attention to football. Now that I have fucking two kids, it's like, I don't know how I'm going.

[C]

So I was a Washington Commanders fan, so. Which you couldn't even use the name of my team for like a decade in public discourse, so it's like very hard to follow them.

[A]

So we might be heading back to it though.

[C]

Yes, according to Trump.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

But so fantasy was like the way in which I stayed very involved in football. And also living on the west coast. Football is great because it's over. It's over at 8:30. Yeah. Starts at 10:00am, which is awesome. And then if you have small children on the London game, which starts at 6am Yep. Is like a real gift.

[D]

Bet the London. You know, this conversation made me think of something that pissed me off about J.D. vance. I remember what it was.

[C]

So J.D.

[D]

Mance did an interview yesterday with this guy on Fox named Will Kane is basically a set of veneers who was given a show and they were talking about like they were talking about Ohio State versus Texas, I think. And clearly he had been prepped that this was going to come right? Because like Will Kane's like, I got my orange tie and you're a Buckeyes guy. JD and JD's like, I'm told that the Buckeyes are an 11 point dog and Will Kane who came from sports media was like, no, that's like, not even close to the line.

[A]

He couldn't even pretend to be nice to him. But like, it was funny because it was a rare moment where Kane's like, what are you talking about? Well, you.

[C]

If you understand anything about gambling lines or football, it would be fucking absurd for the defending national championship dog at home. Like, it's impossible.

[A]

It's crazy.

[D]

It's crazy. So, like, again, total Phony was beclowned on Fox News by a clown.

[C]

Literally the first beclowning ever done by a often be clowned person. Will Kane.

[A]

Yes. To our earlier conversation. Immediately blamed someone. Nameless on. Yeah, blame someone. I don't know. Someone sent me a link with the line. Someone sent me that line. Did they?

[B]

Did they?

[D]

I think you had a prep document.

[A]

Glad that you're getting good information all the time. You want to talk about the pats at all? Did we talk about the patsy? Sorry.

[B]

I think it's done.

[A]

Which part?

[B]

This part of the show.

[D]

The longest you've ever been silent on podcasts.

[A]

Monica. Not Monica asks. Labor Day special. Since it's Labor Day, you are attending a holiday cookout and must choose between a paper plate with two hot dogs, a scoop of potato salad, and a wedge of watermelon or a paper plate with a cheeseburger, bean salad, and two chocolate chip cookies. There is a condiment table with standard toppings, but between you and. It is someone who wants to critique your recent Twitter posts, so you may have to do without. You have arrived late and the only remaining beverage to pair with your food is Lacroix Limoncello. Which plate are you taking?

[C]

Why is this question hurt my head?

[A]

Why is the.

[D]

Why is it paper versus normal play? Why is that so highlighted?

[B]

Because I'm sure this person thinks you don't need a straw with your coffee. So I think it's for me.

[A]

Oh, I missed the paper play part.

[B]

Here's what I do. I take the cheeseburger in one hand. I take the two cookies. I just throw the bean salad out. Now I'm mobile.

[D]

And the limoncello.

[B]

Yeah, I don't want the limoncello.

[C]

This the whole thrust of the question they want. They're trying to figure out whether you want a hot dog, hamburger, bean salad, whatever, and whether you're willing to go. Whether you love condiments so much and you engage in an awkward conversation about your Twitter feed to get them.

[A]

Yeah, I just took it as like, which plate? You can't have any condiments. Which plate? Do you pick? Oh, to me, it's easy. I just pick the hot dogs.

[C]

Yeah, I would pick the hot dogs.

[A]

Bean salad is not that. And I like watermelon. And bean salad is not that great. What is it? At least I don't think so. It's like there's. There's some mayonnaise and beans. Let me tell you, that's.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And I like potato salad and I like hot dogs.

[C]

Okay, that's great.

[A]

That's me. I don't know anyone else.

[B]

And I think if somebody criticizes, I think the best thing to do. If somebody talks to you about something you don't feel like talking to them about, just agree with them more than they ever expected. It was a stupid post right here.

[A]

I'm out.

[B]

You're right.

[A]

I totally hear you.

[B]

It was stupider than even your saying.

[C]

Man, do I regret that. Moving on.

[A]

Have never gotten in a fight with someone in person over my tweets.

[D]

Yeah, this is not likely happened.

[A]

Yeah, I know that could surprise a lot of you. Handypants, you guys have been doing the podcast.

[C]

Sent this in directly from TPUSA conference.

[D]

Confirmed the Crooked Kong.

[A]

Handypants, you guys have been doing the podcast for a good while now. Thousand episodes. Looking back at those first few years, how have each of you changed as podcast hosts? Who would like to begin? See, there's a lot of growth.

[D]

Yeah, I changed this show. That's what happened here.

[B]

You know, I don't know. Like, it's like, I think like, we. Over the years, I mean, part of it is like, did we change? Did the environment change? But, like, I do think one thing, like, it got worse. I think during the pandemic, like we said from the beginning, you know, we had, like, a slogan, right? We want to entertain, inform. We want to inspire action. And, like, informing people and talking about what people do to get involved, like, that's a little bit more objective than what's subjective, which is just being entertaining. And I think there were times where we got so concerned about the mission that we didn't focus enough on, like, what we were really in, which is this crazy attention war. And I think sometimes we felt like, oh, people would message us like, you guys gotta talk about climate change. It's so important. And so then we would try to force it in or try to prove we were doing what we were meant to do as, like, good members of the resistance, which led to, I think, a worse product. And I think we've gotten more comfortable just. Just feeling like it's very important that people coming Come back because it's like a fun conversation, and that's not, like, a nice thing. It's like a necessary thing. I think that's one thing we've done differently over the years.

[A]

It's taken me a while, and I've not gotten there yet. But I think more about what do I want to say about this, and less about how is this going to land, necessarily. Because I think if you're constantly like, oh, this take will get me in trouble, or someone's going to be mad about this and whatever else, then it just makes you. It makes the conversation tighter and also just harder to have, and you just start feeling like, if I have a platform to say this stuff, I might as well say what I. It's not to not be thoughtful about what you believe, but, like, I just try to say what I believe, you know?

[C]

Like, I love doing this podcast. I'm very grateful to you guys for starting this company so I can do this podcast. Like, I love talking about politics, love talking about smart, entertaining people who are my friends. I would say that for a very long time, I, like, had a real identity crisis about being a podcaster. It's just. It's like, in my life, like, I always was, like, a political operative. Like, that's what I was from the second I left college, and just what I always was. And then all of a sudden, I was a podcaster. And I will say that when I left the White House, Barack Obama, as he would do, had some life advice for me. And I told him that I was, like, negotiating with CNN about doing, like, a cable deal. And it's like, Axe was doing that. Jay Kearney had just finished one. Like, a bunch of his people were doing it. He's like, that's a good thing to do right away. Keep your profile. It's like, but I just don't want to look up in 10 years and still see you on cable TV all the time. Like, that's not what you want. And so, like, that haunted me.

[B]

I was like, boy, don't worry about that. That whole economy is gonna fall apart.

[C]

And so that, like, has always haunted me about, like. Like, we're immediate people, and it's. But it's this conflict between.

[A]

And then he went and, yeah, yeah.

[B]

Yeah, he's doing a podcast.

[A]

Anyway, check him out with Bruce Princeton.

[C]

Well, I can't turn on Netflix without hearing his voice talking about some migrating manatees.

[B]

But these manatees make the cars right here in America.

[C]

But, like, there was this moment, like, it took a while. It really has been probably since the last couple years. We're just like, this is politics now, right? Politics and media are the same, and it's information warfare. And even though I would, like, say those things and write those things, it took a while to adjust in my head that the way I will contribute to politics going forward is not being on conference calls, like, going through pulling data for candidates like you used to do, or, like, working on messaging or pitching reports or other things. It's like having a platform and using it and thinking about ways in which you can grow the platform and other people can grow the platforms and stuff like that. It's understanding that media is politics now.

[A]

Yeah, yeah.

[D]

You want to clear a room, tell people you're in podcasting.

[A]

You know what I mean?

[C]

Can I tell you the hardest thing about just, like, going about life is when you're, like, at the playground with your kids or you're at a birthday party with your kids, and, like, so what do you do?

[D]

Yeah, no, it's hard. I never engage on that.

[C]

Well, in an Uber, on the way home from a trip recently, I told the guy I was a consultant, and usually that just, like, ends the whole thing. And he's like, what are your consultant in? And I was like, pr. He's like, you mean, like, marketing? And then he. I then had an hour conversation where I just had to pretend I was in marketing because his wife was in marketing.

[A]

He's like, you know how many Uber drivers? I've just said podcasting? And then it's by the end of the Uber, they're like, oh, pod, save America.

[C]

I can't do that. I would not be in sales.

[D]

The reaction to this had changed a lot over time. Like in 2017, when I was like, hannah, can we please move from San Francisco to Los Angeles so that I could do a podcasting company with my friends. It was like, that was a challenging conversation. You know, there are people in my life who are like, you have a plan B, right? There's a lot of that.

[A]

It's so happy now.

[D]

It's far more mainstream. She's dirty, hairy, threat of my wife.

[B]

Pretty happy now.

[D]

It's like a very different thing. It's like, what? Like, it was a much more niche thing. I think it's more widespread. I think you're right, Dan, though, that, like, the kind of media piece of politics is so much more important now. It's much more central. It's like. I think the way I would think about it is, like, we all spent so much time shaping the Words. And now the clear challenge is getting the words to the people. And, like, being a part of the last mile is, like, interesting and fun.

[A]

Yeah. Schumer fan69 if in the near future someone can go to ChatGPT and ask it for a political podcast to catch up on the day's news, are you worried you will be replaced?

[D]

Kinda. I mean, there'll probably be an older, like, some generation that wants real people to do their news, so then there's gonna be folks who just could care less, is what I think.

[C]

I've been working on a. On the side, an AI podcasting company.

[A]

Are they gonna let you be part of.

[D]

Dan?

[C]

Yeah, I'm starting out in charge. How that ends, I don't know.

[B]

But yeah, it's called. Great point, Dan. I'm like, I go back and forth about. I feel like I. We get. We get bogged down because it's like an abstraction, right? Like, it's a. It's a tool that can do a lot of different things. And so, like, was the hammer good for, like. It's like, it's a very. It's a very broad question. And I feel like sometimes it's like, do I think, like, technology that can imitate real people to confuse people into thinking they're real is good? I don't do. Am I as worried about that as I am all these other implications? No, because on some level, like, it would just be doing an impression of the things that already existed. Right. And people ultimately are seeking something out that feels new. So it's like, am I worried about something that's kind of a mirror of what people have already done? Like, not as much, but maybe not as much as I should be. I don't know.

[A]

I'm worried about AI a lot as anyone can listen to offline knows. But. But on this point, I do think there's a limit to. AI is limited by its inability to be creative. For now. For now. But, like, if AI is always going to be scraping the Internet or the entire world for information, and that's what's like. There's just something. And I notice it when you just to try it out. Like when you ask it to write or you ask it to do stuff like that, it's just not. I know it's going to get a lot better. I can imagine it being extremely proficient and accurate and all these kind of things, but there's just an added. Like, the humor, I think, is not as good as it could. As sharp as it could be. It's just. It's I don't know if it'll ever completely replace human creativity in terms of just like being a newsreader. Yeah, no, I think that's a. Yeah.

[B]

It'S like, it's hard to. It's like hard to wrap your mind around because it's like the technology is improving and it's like, okay, what can it improve? Like, what does it look like when it's maximally.

[A]

Right.

[B]

Yeah, that's what I'm. And what are the limits that are like, endemic to the technology? And one of the problems, one of the, like, limits of it is like, it is of the past. It's. It has to be of the past. And we're not. We're. We're making new things.

[A]

Totally. That's.

[B]

And like, that is a protection. Like, that is something that, like, I think, like, it's. It traps you in the moment. I did its scraping and that can never change.

[A]

Right. No matter how good it gets.

[B]

Right.

[C]

It can change. I mean, we, we all. We're all shapture the past and we have the capacity to take what's in the past and use its project new things forward.

[D]

That's sort of where I am too. It's like. I think that's what creativity is. It's like kind of taking information that art exists in your brain and like connecting different strands that might. Thematically, people might not think of otherwise.

[A]

Yeah, I think what it's missing though is human, is individual human experience. Right. Like, it can't ever.

[D]

That's the thing, potentially. Unless. Till it reads all the memoirs in the world.

[B]

Well, but, but I. But then, like, okay, it's also when it does, when, like, you see a photo or when they, like someone makes a video or a fake photo. Wow, that looks really real. It only has a function in a world where people expect most things to be real. Right. What is it doing an impression of? Of real things. Right. And in a world where there are fewer of those real things, it starts to have less meaning and have less utility because it has to do the trick. Like, it has to do the function of replacing someone. Those people need to exist to be replaced.

[A]

Right. Right. Well, we'll see. Christy, Gnomes Injector asks. Due to a series of shocking coincidences and mishaps, you find yourself trapped in an undersea habitat stocked with food and water and little else. The seas are rough and it will be between two and three weeks until you are rescued. Oh, so two and three weeks. Okay. You are down there with one other person. It's either Stephen Miller, Don Jr. Or Marjorie Taylor Greene. Of the three, who do you hope it is? That's an easy one.

[D]

Don's got drugs.

[C]

It's not Stephen Miller.

[A]

Yeah, that's.

[C]

That's the easy one for you. Marjorie Taylor Greene.

[A]

Yeah. Marge.

[B]

Wow.

[C]

What a great way to meet your crush.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

You're doing workouts.

[A]

You know, you were gonna go, Don Jr. Well, I just want to make.

[D]

A joke about him having a bag, but I think Marjorie Taylor Greene is a more fully formed person. Surprisingly.

[B]

What's interesting is when I made up.

[A]

These questions, those two were tied for me.

[D]

Stephen Miller's like, you push him out of the Habitat.

[B]

Well, I thought it was more evenly balanced.

[A]

I pushed myself out of the Habitat.

[C]

You did, exactly. Christy Nomes, injector.

[B]

Yeah, I'm Kristi Nomes, Injector.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

Lovett did this question, and I thought.

[B]

It'D be more balanced in part because. Yeah, like, yes. But as I say it, No, I think we all, like. I would rather spend the time with Marjorie Taylor Greene because I do think she has a genuine ideology. But so does Stephen Miller. But he's so heinous. But when you maybe, like, learn something trying to kind of understand him, like.

[C]

After the time, keep in mind.

[A]

On Katie Miller's podcast, JD Vance did say if he could pick one Cabinet member to fly transatlantic with next to on a plane, he would pick Stephen Miller. Even though Stephen Miller's not in a Cabinet. That's how much he likes Stephen Miller.

[C]

He said that to Stephen Miller's wife?

[A]

Yeah, but she gave him an out with the Cabinet.

[D]

But just a perfect example of why he's the phoniest loser. That is such a lame answer. It is not what the question asked. You're kissing the ass of the person you're naming is like, you suck.

[A]

And fairness probably more powerful than most of the Cabinet, though.

[C]

So, yeah, I think the answer has to be Marjorie Taylor Greene. I mean, just imagine you could egg her on for conspiracy theories. So that archery. It's day seven here, so. Waiting for the rescue boat. Tell me about the Jewish space laser again.

[D]

Or the CrossFit classes for free.

[A]

You think you could get though good info out of Don Jr. That could be useful about his dad? Yeah, that's the only thing that's interesting.

[C]

That's interesting.

[D]

He probably has good stories.

[B]

Well, I think as many intelligence agents have figured out over the years, a little bit of flattery, a couple drinks, he eventually softens.

[A]

That's true. Okay, this is Lovett's second question. I'm with that little. I'm. I'm. I'm with that little girl is me.

[D]

Solid combo.

[A]

You can open a portal right now. You will either see yourself 20 years ago or 20 years from now. Would you rather tell your past self about the future to change our present or learn about the future so that you can shape it from this point forward? That's a really good one.

[C]

I'm definitely going in the future. I feel pretty good about where my life is now. Wait, you can either go to the past, make your present better, or you can go to the future and have bring knowledge back to the present.

[A]

And you'll go to the future.

[C]

I'll go to the future. Both because I think you can maybe help change the world, but also just like in back the future too. I would get the lottery numbers and the super bowl winners.

[A]

Austin has a thumbs up to that.

[D]

You go back in time, you either say buy Bitcoin or you go into future.

[C]

Oh, that's a good point. I did not think about that.

[D]

Run from the machines.

[B]

Yeah, tell the machines you really like them starting in 2022.

[A]

What if you go to the future, though, and it's just like an apocalyptic wasteland? That'd be bad. And you don't know how or why.

[C]

You know what, you've really caused me to question my initial answer here.

[B]

But what's interesting about this, what I like about this is this is going in the direction I thought. Cuz I did think everyone's initial response would be, well, I love the. I love my life. Yes, Trump is bad and things are bad, but this is the life that I have and where I led. I'd love to change my future.

[A]

My initial response was go to the past.

[B]

But the thing is.

[C]

What? Are you dissatisfied about your present?

[A]

No, no, I'm just kidding. It's funny because this is how broken my brain is. I didn't even think about my personal life. I just thought about the politics in the world. And I was like, we go back and we don't write that joke. Don't give those jokes.

[B]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Good to see you, Mr. Trump. You're gonna have a proud future in politics.

[A]

And tonight I'm naming Donald Trump to my cabinet.

[B]

Hey, you know what you need to do? Run the Kennedy center starting today.

[A]

Oh, that would have been so good.

[B]

But it's interesting, right? Because then you're saying, okay, I would like to have information about the future to change it. But you didn't have that about a present you currently have that you wouldn't change. And if you went back and gave yourself in the past information, it would not only give you power now, it would give you power 20 years from now. So it's. That to me is what's interesting about it.

[C]

It's interesting.

[A]

Cool. Yeah.

[C]

Buy bitcoin smart.

[A]

You going past future?

[D]

No, I'm a real butterfly effect person and I feel like anything I changed in the past might impact today. And then like, what if my kids.

[C]

You already gonna make out with your mom? Like what? Like why? That's exactly.

[A]

What are you googling?

[B]

We knew what he meant.

[D]

Got it.

[B]

Out.

[A]

He's like. I was. I was just saying, by the way, that Hannah enjoys the lifestyle now because you're a very successful media company. That's literally all I.

[B]

This episode is sponsored by BetterHelp. Who do you go to in order to solve your life's problems? The group chat over sharing with strangers.

[D]

Jesus.

[B]

You go to Jesus?

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

It can't go wrong. Can't go wrong. Speak into praying and so forth. That that helps.

[D]

I met my. My roommate's sophomore year.

[B]

Oh, your roommate sophomore year.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Okay. Also a good person to talk to. Great advice. Better Help has been helping people find solutions to their problems for over 10 years and have a 4.9 rating out of 1.7 million client session reviews. BetterHelp therapists work according to strict codes of conduct and are fully licensed in the US BetterHelp does the initial matching work for you so you can focus on your therapy goals. A short questionnaire helps identify your needs and preferences. And our 10 plus years of experience and industry leading match fulfillment rate means we typically get it right the first time. If you aren't happy with your match, switch to a different therapist at any time. From our tailored Rex. Fully online, you can pause your subscription whenever you need to and switch therapists anytime at no extra cost. With over 30,000 therapists, BetterHelp is the world's largest online therapy platform, having served over 5 million people globally. It's convenient too. You can join a session with a therapist at the click of a button, helping you fit therapy into your busy life. Plus, switch therapists at any time. Therapy can help. Look, we're therapy boys. We've talked about it. You gotta talk to somebody. And especially if you think you don't have to, that's when you absolutely do have to.

[D]

Good point.

[B]

There's a lot of people that can't get therapy and that's wrong. But if you can, you should. You just should. As the largest online therapy provider in the world, BetterHelp can provide access to mental health professionals with a diverse variety of Expertise. Find the one with BetterHelp, our listeners get 10% off their first month at betterhelp.com P S A that's BetterHelp. H-E-L-P.com PSA Big Moments or small moments.

[E]

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[A]

All right, last thing before we go. You're about to hear a special preview of our subscription show inside 2025. If you're not already a member, we really hope you'll consider signing up. Dan, Elijah only wants you to do these pitches, which I know is a signal to the three of us that we don't do them as well. And he's right and you do do them better.

[C]

It's important that I think it makes.

[A]

Me want to try harder, but especially.

[C]

Now that we're literally substack competitors. I think it's good for me to do this.

[B]

Yeah, it's good example why Democrats fail, right? Because it's not because of the words he's going to use. He's a trusted messenger. We haven't built enough credibility. So it's not like we have the magic. We said what Dan said. It wouldn't work.

[C]

So the usual pitch is you would get ad free episodes. You need to hang on the discord, which are all great things, people like that. But I think the reason to be a subscriber is the mission of this company. The company you guys started 1000 episodes ago was to build a give or take a few. Just go with the bit. The company you guys built a thousand episodes ago, give or take a few, was to build a counterweight to the right wing media ecosystem. And when that started, the idea was Fox News. And now it is much bigger and more dangerous than Fox News. And that need for a counterweight is even greater than ever was before. You can argue that we almost lost the 2020 election, lost the 2024 election because Democrats lost the ability to communicate with large swaths of the American people. The way to fix that is not to double down on the old broken media system. It is to build an alternative to build an alternative independent media ecosystem. So your $10 a month, I think it is. It goes to help do that. Helps the company develop new initiatives, develop new shows, get bigger, reach new audiences, find more talent. And so it is an investment, just like your contribution to a political campaign or a pac. This is an investment in a better, more progressive democratic future.

[B]

Can we put some fucking patriotic music on it?

[A]

That's how we do. That's why Dan does the pitches. Guys, we're now on Substack alongside YouTube, Apple Podcasts, Supercast, and all the info you need to be part of all this [e-mail] friends. Here's inside 2025.

[F]

All right, let's do a gimmick, as Bill Simmons calls it. I'm revealing myself as a Bill Simmons listener.

[C]

I mean, Bill Simmons, obviously legendary podcaster, and in many ways responsible for the creation of this podcast, but I don't think he invented the word gimmick. What?

[F]

I don't know, man. I was just like, what do I call this? Well, Simmons calls it a gimmick, so I'm just going to call it that. Okay, before this recording, I gave you guys a prompt. Here's the prompt. You're a political consultant, and you can magically make the campaign that you're working on have a robust presence in any of the platforms listed here. TikTok, Facebook, meta, Slash, Twitter, Substack, TV news, podcast, YouTube, and then digital and linear paid advertising. Rank those in the order you'd prefer your campaign to have a robust presence on. And then let's see how much you guys align. Dan, what's most important for you?

[A]

Before Dan goes, can I just ask why you grouped? I know Facebook and meta, obviously, but why you grouped Facebook, meta, Twitter, and Substack all together?

[F]

I don't know, man. I was looking back on this, and I was like, why did I do that?

[A]

Okay, I know I didn't.

[C]

Can I redo your gimmick just real fast? Can we redo it?

[A]

Yeah.

[F]

My thought was TikTok is just its own beast, but it should be.

[C]

TikTok is one. YouTube is another. Instagram is a third. Facebook is a fourth. Substack is a fifth. Linear advertising is a sixth. Those are your six.

[A]

Well, now I don't. Now I don't know.

[F]

Did I say podcast and you. Did I say be together?

[C]

Yeah, podcast together.

[A]

I think that's fair.

[F]

Okay.

[C]

That is because, John, as you know, most podcasts are watched on YouTube.

[A]

That's right. That's right. Wait, so what are we taking out now. Facebook met a Twitter substack. Which ones are we removing?

[B]

Twitter.

[C]

Let's just. I guess you could put Twitter in there, but just make them individual. Okay. All right, cool. Like, substack is one.

[A]

So Facebook, Instagram is one, basically.

[C]

Sure. No one, no one, no one would ever pick Facebook in 2025. It's ridiculous.

[A]

And Twitter and substance.

[C]

What's the other. What's the other option? Parchment paper. Like, what are we doing.

[F]

Dan?

[C]

What's your. What's your number one? We'll work through it.

[F]

We'll talk about how combined these things are. It'll be messy. But what's. What's your number one pick here?

[C]

YouTube. And I don't think any. There's no other. It can't. You can't pick another option. It's not even close.

[F]

John, do you align with that?

[A]

Yes, yes, I do.

[C]

Can, I guess.

[F]

It's because YouTube feeds all the other ones. You get clips. You do something on YouTube and you get clips on all the other ones, including cable news.

[A]

That's where most. That's where most people in the country are watching, getting their content right now.

[C]

Is because YouTube is TV. That's the thing that people don't recognize is that more people, most many people are now watching their YouTube. Not on their phone, not on their tablet, on their laptop, but on their actual television. In 2024, 1 billion hours of YouTube were consumed on TVs globally. And that number is going up. It's particularly going up among Gen Z. Yep.

[F]

Okay, so then what's your number two? If it's the same thing, I'm going to be upset. I hope you guys have some deviation.

[C]

No, because there are clear answers here. It's TikTok, and you shouldn't pick anything else.

[A]

John, get ready.

[C]

Oh, please say Facebook.

[A]

Well, first of all, there is a fuckload of people still on Facebook. Just not any people under 40 and under 60. Yeah, right. I was gonna say this is different now that we. This is all fucked up now that we have changed the categories. But I was gonna say Twitter substack, because I do think if you were running a campaign, there's still. There's still an influence, an influential set of people in politics and media that you're going to have to reach and you have to talk to. And it's not. I have to sit down with the New York Times or the Washington Post editorial board or anything like that. But I think you kind of need. If you're going to have a campaign presence, you're going to have the need to have some presence in the, you know, in the, in the world of journalists, influencers, sort of the traditional establishment gatekeepers.

[C]

And that's one of the reasons why we're going on substack because unlike a lot of other places where people get podcasts and content these days, Substack actually has a very robust, very successful discovery algorithm. I have benefited from this over the last as I spent the last five years building a newsletter on Substack and it is incredibly helpful. It has helped me find other newsletters that I'm very interested in. It has grown my newsletter and one of the reasons to be on substack is to help us reach new people who might be interested in our content and their algorithm helps us do that.

[F]

Where did you have TikTok ranked, John?

[A]

Three. Next one.

[F]

Okay, and then Dan, what was your three?

[C]

Instagram.

[F]

Interesting. Okay. Why Instagram?

[C]

See, I'm going to build a bottom up campaign where I'm going to reach voters first and, and then the, the elites that John is fighting with on Twitter will then see the success of my campaign and then start writing about it.

[A]

Where will they see it at when the.

[C]

In Iowa or Michigan or wherever they're coming out. Yeah. Or when I'm sending out. Yeah. I mean I'm not, we're not going to not be on Twitter. I would just rather have a robust TikTok presence to reach voters first and then we can tweet out our massive TikTok TikTok following numbers.

[A]

And you think that is it just because Instagram has a bigger user base than TikTok that you would rank Instagram? Oh no, you. Because you put TikTok before Instagram.

[C]

Yes, yes. And I would pick TikTok over Instagram.

[A]

Now why did you do that if Instagram has a bigger like bigger reach. Great question.

[C]

You're good on. Because one TikTok sets culture in a way that Instagram does not. Right. As someone who is mostly abandoned TikTok for and Instagram reels for my short term memory. But the one thing you know is that what it like whatever is cool on TikTok shows up on Instagram like three weeks later. It's just as more culturally relevant reaches more young people. It's a cultural driver of what's happening in the way Instagram is less.

[F]

So Dan, what I'm hearing from you is you are an admirer of Zoran Mamdani's campaign.

[C]

Absolutely. Absolutely. That's actually the one that is when you talk about how you build your campaign and then you get the elites last. That is an example of how that works. AOC is another example of how that works. Bernie, frankly, in 2016 is another example of how that works in a very different media environment.

[F]

All right, so, Dan, what'd you have number four?

[C]

What's left on the subject? Twitter is one combined right substack. Twitter probably.

[A]

John, Did I do ins. I would do. Did I do Instagram? Did I.

[C]

No, you haven't done Instagram.

[F]

You've not done Instagram?

[A]

Instagram. Instagram.

[C]

Well, no.

[A]

Facebook. Instagram. I did TikTok.

[F]

Yeah, TikTok was his three now.

[A]

And then Facebook Instagram is four.

[C]

Yep.

[F]

So you guys both have TV news in digital slash linear advertising, paid advertising as your five and six here?

[A]

Yeah, my. My six is tv.

[C]

I mean, like, I wouldn't even. I'd cross off the list. No, I would pick a robust early state billboard presence over dominance of TV news.

[A]

I would love to have some, like, people who are working in democratic politics right now do this because I. How much you want to bet the digital and linear paid would be further up the list than where we.

[C]

Depends are they. Depends on what? What part of the industry they work in.

[A]

Do they make money off of it? Yeah, I mean, I don't think it's just making money. Some of the people who work in politics genuinely believe that, like, digital and linear paid are sort of underestimated by, you know, the pundit class and everyone else who doesn't work in democratic politics.

[C]

I fundamentally disagree with.

[A]

Me too. Me too.

[C]

And just I think the way that. Here's what I think about is if you are 40 years old, your entire life has been about skipping ads, right? Skipping them on your dvr, just ignoring the digital ads that pop up at you on Facebook when you were a kid, just skipping right past them on Instagram stories or TikTok. And you just are culturally attuned to believe. To not believe a advertisement paid for by the people who want you to vote for the person or buy the product. And that is like. And it's also almost impossible to reach People under 40 with paid television ads because they are other than like major sporting events and award shows. They. You can't run political ads on TikTok. You can't run political ads on net. On Netflix, the two biggest platforms, people spend their most time and. Or. Or also on YouTube. People are constantly skipping that. That ad at the beginning of it. And so you have everyone under 40 doesn't either doesn't get or doesn't believe in ads. And next election is gonna be 45. Election after that is gonna be everyone under 50. It's everyone. It's just. You're just reaching a. You cannot reach young people with linear television ads. It is. You cannot find a less efficient way to spend money right now.

[A]

That's our show for today. If you like what you just heard, please consider subscribing on the platform that makes the most sense for you. Cricket.com friends to learn more. Hope everyone had a great Labor Day weekend. Dan and I will be back with a new show on Friday.

[C]

Bye everyone.

[A]

If you want to listen to Pod Save America ad free and get access to exclusive podcasts, go to qriket.com friends to subscribe on Supercast, Substack, YouTube or Apple Podcasts. Also, please consider leaving us a review that helps boost this episode and everything we do here at Cricket. Pod Save America is a crooked media production. Our producers are David Toledo, Emma Ilick Frank and Saul Rubin. Our associate producer is Farah Safari. Austin Fisher is our senior producer. Reed Cherlin is our executive editor. Adrian Hill is our head of news and politics. The show is mixed and edited by Andrew Chadwick. Jordan Kantor is our sound engineer with audio support from Kyle Seglin and Charlotte Landis. Matt de Groat is our head of production. Naomi Sengel is our executive assistant. Thanks to our digital team, Elijah Cohn, Hayley Jones, Ben Hethcoat, Mia Kelman, Carol Pelaviev, David Toles and Ryan Young. Our production staff is proudly unionized with the writers the of Guild of America East.

[B]

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