Eamon Mohildeen (2:43)

That'd be great. Yeah. Actually, when I saw the news I was very excited. You know, I think, you know, cross collaboration. Crooked Media is breaking new grounds and doing incredible things now for a couple years. I think there's so much cinematic energy between the two organizations. And you know, honestly the way the media landscape is changing now, people are getting information and news and content and conversations in so many different places. So the more platforms you're on and the more places you are seen, the better it is for everyone. So I can't think of a better partnership than Crooked Media and Ms. Now.

Ben Rhodes (3:17)

Yeah, you got to show up everywhere and we may have to get you here for a podcast man.

Eamon Mohildeen (3:22)

Anytime. Anytime.

Ben Rhodes (3:23)

Got a couple of pictures, a couple pictures for you. Well, look, we've got a great show lined up today. We're going to cover the news out of the Munich security conference where I saw firsthand the kind of post European freakout from the Greenland dust up. We'll talk about. I really want to unpack with you Israel's escalation in the west bank, the latest on negotiations with Iran, Trump's attempt to collapse the Cuban government via oil embargo, but really kind of starving the population there. And then just briefly, some succession news out of North Korea. And I don't know, Eamon, if you saw a piece about the downfall of Twitter troll and leader of the Trump Kennedy Center, Rick Grenell. So hopefully we can get to that.

Eamon Mohildeen (4:03)

Chief construction officer is what he's been.

Ben Rhodes (4:06)

He was going to be Secretary of State, now he's running a construction.

Eamon Mohildeen (4:09)

He ran intelligence agencies for America and now he's in charge of construction projects.

Ben Rhodes (4:13)

It just shows you what happens if you suck up the Trump. It doesn't usually work out, but let's start in Munich. So I'm just going to give a little rundown here where the security conference took place over Valentine's Day, but no love lost between the US and. And there's really nothing more romantic, amen, I have to say, than being in a windowless series of rooms with a bunch of technocrats and government officials talking about the collapse of the rules based order. I will say that there were a couple of speeches that kind of shadowed everything. One was J.D. vance's from last year, which people were still talking about, where he went there, defended kind of right wing nationalism, told the Germans to accept the far right AfD and then Trump's usually grotesque and long winded scolding and self adulating threats about Greenland at Davos. Although, you know, he did say he wasn't going to invade it. Now, this year at the conference, the role of proxy for the Trump administration was played by Secretary Marco Rubio, who offered a more subtle version of the JD Vance message, although he slipped in plenty of nationalist imperialist dog whistles. After listing the crimes. In his view of the post World War II international order, including trade and investing in welfare states and other good things like dealing with climate change, he got down to business. So I want to play a clip from this Rubio speech for us to respond to.

Marco Rubio (5:37)

The United States of America will once again take on the task of renewal and restoration. And while we are prepared, if necessary, to do this alone, it is our preference and it is our hope to do this together with you. We are part of one civilization, Western civilization. We are bound to one another by the deepest bonds that nations could share, forged by centuries of shared history, Christian faith, culture, heritage, language, ancestry. And so this is why we Americans may sometimes come off as a little direct and urgent in our council. This is why President Trump demands seriousness and reciprocity from our friends here in Europe. The reason why, my friends, is because we care deeply, we care deeply about your future and ours. We in America have no interest in being polite and orderly caretakers of the West's managed decline.

Ben Rhodes (6:41)

All right, so I wrote something up on subsec about this, but I was there and one of the strange things I noticed was, on the one hand, the Europeans in private and sometimes in public are furious, alarmed, freaked out about the US and what Trump's doing. On the other hand, there was a lot of thank you for kicking us in the ass, and we were going to spend a little more on defense, and it's all because of you. And they gave Rubio standing ovation. It felt like a kind of abusive relationship. You know, they've been kind of, you know, well, abused, and they're now they're like kind of thanking us for kicking them in the ass. But I mean, what did you think of Rubio's speech and the kind of the vibes coming out of Munich?

Eamon Mohildeen (7:22)

I mean, the first thing that comes to my mind is instead of him saying that, you know, us Americans can be a little direct and urgent at times, it's perhaps that us Americans can be a little bit arrogant. And you clearly see that when you are talking about American foreign policy in so many parts of the world, like what you just described in Munich. Because if you look at so many of these issues, case by case, if you look at how America is dealing with Ukraine, if you look at how Donald Trump is talking about Greenland, if you look at how Donald Trump is praising people like Viktor Orban, the authoritarian leader who has rolled back democracy in Hungary, that is not about shared values. That is not about heritage and culture. That is about autocracy, and that is about America telling the Europeans what we want them to do. And you wrote about that a little bit in your substack. Right. You kind of highlighted about the perspective of America. When you kind of look back at where America's viewpoints were about Ukraine during the Biden administration and where they are now and how much young Germans that you spoke to were saying that, look, the United States and by extension Europe are expecting to be in direct conflict with Russia within five years. You know, and I think for me, that was jarring that Europeans see themselves now as the front lines of this Russian expansionist or potential war. And the Americans are lecturing them arrogantly about, you know, we're going to take over Greenland, we're going to take over other parts of what we need in terms of global powers, whether it's Cuba, Venezuela or elsewhere.

Ben Rhodes (8:50)

Well, yeah, and actually, Eamonn Rubio went on to Hungary to endorse Viktor Orban. I'm glad you brought up Ukraine, because there's the rhetoric, but then the substance and the substance there is pretty grim. And Zelensky showed up. He tried to talk about new packages of support for Europe ahead of the fourth anniversary of the war, but really they're dealing with relentless attacks on their power grid. Russia and Ukraine met on Tuesday in Switzerland for more talks, but we don't really see an end to the war in sight. I didn't hear anything in Munich that was optimistic at all about either the battlefield or the talks. There's a feeling that the US Isn't obviously providing the same kind of assistance the Biden administration did. And as you said, I was really struck, Eamonn, that when you're in Europe, there are these Russian sabotage operations happening. I mean, in Poland, the whole shopping mall was burned down by Russian agents. And, yeah, I met with some, some Germans who were, you know, literally thinking that, that they're already in an asymmetric war with cyber attacks and sabotage. I mean, you've, you've been following Ukraine. Where do you see this going? I mean, do you, do, do you have any hope for an end to the war in 2026? I mean, how are you thinking about Ukraine these days?

Eamon Mohildeen (10:05)

Look, I mean, there's so many layers to it, right? And I think you kind of have to take a step back and look at it from a few different angles. Right. If you look at it from the perspective of an American vantage point, the idea that you would let a country like Ukraine, even if by the worst description it can be considered a fragile democracy or a budding democracy, the idea that you would rather see a country and its territorial integrity completely broken up and set a new precedent in which a country like Russia can take sovereign territory by force and what that means for other countries around the world, I think is extremely dangerous. So I think from an American, you know, just from an American perspective, that's not the type of precedent that you want to set. And look, there's other examples that we can talk about in the Middle East. China is watching this closely. A lot of countries are watching what the United States does. Because if the United States is willing to wake up and say, you know what, Russia can take that territory by force, we tried to stop it, we couldn't stop it, then you're really setting a dangerous precedent for what happens next in a series of domino effects in Europe. From a European perspective, I think that what you were describing, this idea that Donald Trump is kicking us in the ass to kind of wake us up and take our security, it's so humiliating, right? It's so humiliating that the Europeans are being kicked in the ass by the Americans to wake up and realize that they have to take care of their own territory, not just, by the way, from Russia right now, but watching Donald Trump talk about taking over Greenland and being, you know, hell bent on taking over Greenland really puts Europe at large in a very interesting position. Because let's say, hypothetically, the US does take control of Greenland, and they do so for the articulated reason that it's good for American national security. In potentially confronting Russia or potentially confronting China. Where does that put Europe? Where does that put Europe? It puts Europe in the middle of this unbelievable fight, crossfight that's going to potentially happen between the United States and Russia. And the Europeans are just sitting there ducks with no say whatsoever. And you can kind of attribute that to Europe over the last several years, just conceding more ground to the Americans, letting the Americans run all over them in a series of issues, whether it's foreign policy in the Middle east, whether it's things in Central Asia, whether it is what we see now in Ukraine and elsewhere in Europe, that's the end result of always acquiescing to the United States and specifically with somebody like Donald Trump who doesn't give a damn about European alliances or transatlantic relations, only cares about enriching his pockets and his family's pockets and putting America on this path of, I would argue, just complete and sheer corruption on a scale that we've never seen before. But putting America on a, on a path of totalitarian, totalitarianism and authoritarianism, that I think is extremely dangerous.

Ben Rhodes (12:55)

Yeah, I mean, it's actually, you know, you mentioned the precedent set by kind of validating the annexation of big chunks of Ukraine. I mean, maybe that's a precedent for Greenland annexation by the US and look, one more thing. Well, I'd also say, by the way, the defense spending thing that everybody was crowing about is it's going to take years for Europe to do that. If they do, it's not going to be relevant to Ukraine. But speaking kind of the future. One more thing from Munich I wanted to get to, which is that there were as many as eight potential 2028 Democrats, people who might run for president. 2028 who were at the conference. There was a lot of buzz about this. The Europeans were very curious about these people because they don't know all them particularly well. So we had Alexandria Ocasio Cortez of New York, OB we had Governors Gavin Newsom and Gretchen Whitmer, Senators Ruben Gallego and Mark Kelly, who is now dipping his toe in the water, Chris Murphy of Connecticut, Alyssa Slotkin of Michigan and former Commerce Secretary Gina Raimondo. I will say that all the buzz in Munich was about aoc.

Eamon Mohildeen (13:51)

Yeah.

Ben Rhodes (13:52)

Because she had not been on the world stage this way. She spoke about what you mentioned, which is the danger of authoritarianism. She also had some missteps. I want to play a clip that has kind of both the strength and the thing that people are picking on her about from aoc. So let's hear that clip.

Ad Voice (14:09)

I think one of the connections and relationships that is under discussed, particularly in the security space, is the fact that I believe we're seeing an economy across economy around the world, including in the United States, that extreme levels of income inequality lead to social instability and drives, in a sense, in authoritarianism, right wing populism and very dangerous domestic internal politics. And that is a direct outcome of not just income inequality, but the failure of democracies over decades to deliver.

Eamon Mohildeen (14:47)

Would and should the US Actually commit.

Ad Voice (14:50)

US troops to defend Taiwan if China were to move? You know, I think that this is such a, you know, I think that this is a, this Is of course a very long standing policy of the United States.

Ben Rhodes (15:16)

So look, we're not picking here on asc. But I want to say first of all that, you know, the Europeans are pretty, you know, when they talk to me, disappointed in Democrats. Where are you guys? What's the plan? In a way, we're like the Europeans and I'm the Democrat here, you're the journalist. But we haven't figured out a way to stand up to Trump either. I will say there was a lot of excitement about aoc. She's just as popular with young Europeans as she is with young Americans. And just from my perspective, I thought her presentation on authoritarianism was really strong. Yeah, she flubbed the Taiwan question. But look, the benefit for her is to just get some reps right. She's out there. She's not been in a conference like this. You're not gonna nail every answer. She, she does need to bone up on Taiwan. But like, I'm glad she was there. What, what did you think of aoc? And, and what did you think of kind of the, the way in which the Democrats seem to be groping for not just the person for 2028, but some a message that can resonate on the world stage?

Eamon Mohildeen (16:14)

Actually, I think there, you know, I'm glad that you picked examples from AOC for two reasons. And I actually think two of AOC's most strongest sound bites or comments were not the ones that you played. And those were, those were good for, for the reasons that you outlined. But there's two other important ones. One, she talks about the rules based order not working for everyone. A couple of weeks ago, you know, Mark Carney, the Prime Minister of Canada, spoke at Davos and he talked the rules based order is done and that it's, you know, right versus might. And right now what we thought is the international rules based order of the last several decades since World War II has collapsed or was on the verge of collapsing. And a lot of people took issue with that because it was only when Canada or European countries became in the crosshairs, America and Russia or powerful countries around the world when it came to the issue of trade, did he then speak up. But nobody was talking about the collapse of the rules based order from any of these Western world leaders over the last two years when we were watching the genocide in Gaza. So what AOC did was actually smart. And I think that's part of the reason why young people in Europe, like young people here in the United States, are drawn to her. She speaks with a little bit of moral clarity. And the issue of Taiwan is a political issue and perhaps there is some moral issue to it, but it's certainly a national security issue issue. And so as you said, she needs to kind of flush out that idea and see how the Taiwan issue fits into a moral foreign policy in which you could have had a very strong international rules based order, because she could have said, look, if we would have upheld international rules and norms and order, we would have been able to have a much stronger alliance to say to China, you cannot overtake Taiwan with military force. But because the rules based order has been eroded and destroyed for a variety of reasons, that idea of like the only way to defend other territory right now is purely by America committing troops. And I think that's why that answer landed flat. The second part of the soundbite that you played, which was good, I think it was really important, but another sound bite that she talked about that was so important, which I think is why young people are drawn to her, is that she said the United States has effectively enabled the genocide in Gaza for the past two years without any restrictions on weapons to Israel. And again, it's a moral litmus test. And that's why when young people who are consuming news and are much more plugged into the world in a globalized way are listening and watching what is happening coming out of places like Sudan and Gaza and Congo, they're questioning what is happening at the highest levels of government. And when she talked about that, when she made that point and that connection between the United States foreign policy and the genocide in Gaza, and I think that's why she has such an appeal and such a buzz. Could you potentially get a presidential candidate who is going to run on the major Democratic Party ticket and speak with such moral clarity and authoritative, you know, nuance on some of these issues, I think is why she has such an appeal. And I got to say, you know, I've watched Gavin Newsom and I think he's done an amazing job on so many issues and he is a no doubt a contender and he has such a smart appeal in the way that he is speaking to Donald Trump and, and communicating in an effective way. But he also hasn't effectively communicated on a lot of issues regarding the Middle east and certainly not when it comes to Israel or APAC or dark money in, in the United States. And you know, I don't know if he thinks that there's an added value in speaking to Ben Shapiro or other conservatives, but that's a whole other ball game, you know, but But I'm just giving you like, I know there was buzz up around the two of them, but I think that's what I kind of walked away from having listened to AOC at the Munich Security Conference.

Ben Rhodes (19:51)

Yeah, they were definitely the two people that the Europeans were interested in. And in a strange way, I mean, it's super early, but they feel like the two most interesting people to be watching. Now you're right about Gaza. And I mean to me it's not just Gaza. As important as the issue is, and we're about to talk about Gaza in the west bank, it's also, that is the litmus test to me as to whether you have any morality in your foreign policy.

Eamon Mohildeen (20:16)

Correct.

Ben Rhodes (20:16)

You can't, you can't carve out a genocide.

Eamon Mohildeen (20:18)

Right.

Ben Rhodes (20:18)

You know, 100%. You can't say we're for rules based order, but we will arm a government committing genocide over here.

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Ben Rhodes (22:50)

Okay Eamon, let's turn to the occupied west bank where Netanyahu's far right coalition government has moved to expand and solidify Israeli control and really squeeze the West Bank. And let's be clear, the goal here is not subtle. We had the Finance Minister Smotrich, who's usually the ID of this right wing government, say about these recent steps, we are deepening our roots in all parts of the land of Israel and he sees west bank as part of Israel and we are bearing the idea of a Palestinian state. So this is not subtle. I want to go through these moves and then ask you about them and they may sound a little bureaucratic. And the press are often described as administrative, even though they're really about annexation of other people's land. And cumulatively they're just destroying what is ever left of the idea of the Palestinian state. So first, to give people some context, the Oslo Accords divided the West bank into three areas. Area A, which is 18% of the west bank that's under the control of the PA, the Palestinian Authority. Area B, that's 22% of the West bank, that's joint control. The PA in Israel. Area C, that's 60% of the west bank that's under Israeli control. So first of all, people, a lot of people don't know this. Israel controls most of the West Bank. People like to talk about the weak, feckless Palestinian Authority. Well, one of the reasons they're weak and feckless is they don't even control the territory that they're supposed to, but now that changes. In the last couple weeks, the Israeli government has made a series of announcements to make it easier for Israelis to purchase land from Palestinians to expand Israeli enforcement, including the power to demolish Palestinian buildings, which they regularly do into areas A and B. So the Palestinian controlled areas, for violations involving, to quote the Wall Street Journal, water related offenses, damaged archaeological sites and environmental hazards. So basically pretext for them to just go in and demolish Palestinian structures made Israel the sole authority for planning permission near important religious sites, of which there are many. And for the first time since 1967, Israel will begin to designate large portions of Area C as state land. And the goal is 15% of Area C in the next few years unless the current Palestinian owners can prove their ownership. And as the Israeli Organization piece now notes, that process requires landowners to prove ownership in ways that are really almost impossible for Palestinians to do so. Look, Eamon, what do you make of these steps and what's been going on in the west bank recently? Something that doesn't get as much attention as it should.

Eamon Mohildeen (25:15)

You know, it's something that has been going on for years. I think now it's been, it's now official state policy and it's overt and the world can see it. But the reality of it is Israel has been annexing and expanding illegal Jewish substit settlements since 1967 in defiance of international law. And again, you know, I don't want to sound, you know, repetitive here, but there are a few ways to look at it. The Israeli government has always been, particularly this right wing government, the most extreme in Israel's history, has always been hell bent on annexing the West Bank. Yeah, it's in the party platform of the Likud Charter that there will only be Jewish sovereignty from the river to the sea. That is not new. Israeli politicians, Benjamin Netanyahu, Ben gvir, Smotrich, they've all talked openly about how Israel will incorporate all of the West Bank. And as we saw previously with the Trump administration overtaking the Golan Heights. So the idea of territorial acquisition for Israel is nothing new. The way they do it over the years and the decades has changed. Sometimes they pay lip service to Western diplomacy and they say, we're going to go along with the Oslo process or the peace process, we're going to do the Quartet, we're going to do whatever that. We can keep the international community believing that we're committed to a two state solution, but in reality we determine what happens on the ground and what happens on the Ground is that we can build settlements, we can build roads, we can create apartheid like systems. We control the lives of the millions of Palestinians who live in the west bank, in East Jerusalem, and of course, the Gaza Strip. So what you're seeing now is the kind of the veil has been lifted and now the state is now embarking on this annexation process, and they're kind of doing it piecemeal just to see to what extent the international community is going to speak up or try to do something about it. And they realize that Donald Trump is spread thin. In fact, Donald Trump, who is openly against annexation, has said, look, we've got so much going on right now, we don't have time to think about the West Bank. And that is exactly what the Israelis wanted to hear. They wanted to hear an American president say, because they don't care about whether he likes annexation or not. They just wanted to hear him say, I've got so much on my plate right now, I can't even deal about the West Bank. Because then in their minds, they're like, this is the perfect time. Let's go ahead and start this process of annexing the west bank and making Israel completely sovereign, take over the complete territory of the west bank and making it part of Israeli sovereignty. And look, I think as somebody who believes in a one democratic state that incorporates all of the Palestinians and Jews that live from the river to the sea and have equal rights and the ability to vote, I'm not against, and I know this sounds kind of controversial, I'm not against it. Israel's annexing the West Bank. I'm against the idea that Israel's annexing the west bank, but preserving this apartheid system that exists, which again, is what human rights organizations around the world have described is in place in the West Bank. And so you have this system that's in place there. Palestinians don't have equal rights. Their homes are demolished, their land is confiscated, they're arbitrarily arrested. I can go on and on and on. And there's another system of hierarchy that allows Jewish citizens of the State of Israel to build and develop and grow and flourish. And because of that, we have what we have right now, which is Israel controls the entire territory from the river to the sea in a hierarchical structure based on religion and ethnicity. And that's why we have the system that we have. And the international community, by the way, completely asleep at the wheel. Completely asleep at the wheel. Condemnation statements from the UN Secretary General. But other than that, nothing. Maybe a statement here or there, Israel doesn't care about statements. And as we were just talking about in the case of Europe and you know, the rules based order, nobody, nobody's going to step in and stop Israel from doing what it is doing right now.

Ben Rhodes (29:08)

Yeah, I mean you're describing the dynamic exactly. And again, it connects to the Ukraine and Greenland point. I mean now is the era of no rules and now is the era of annexation. Now's the time to grab while the grabbing is good. You know.

Eamon Mohildeen (29:21)

Exactly.

Ben Rhodes (29:22)

And, and you know, you mentioned some of these responses. I mean, Trump says I'm against annexation. We have enough things to think about now. I mean that's not exactly coming down hard. That's not like you know, conditioning assistance to Israel or using real leverage.

Eamon Mohildeen (29:36)

The uncle is the President of the United States that he has to have many portfolio. Not like you only know you, you don't just, you're not in charge of like two or three things at a time. You, you actually do have to deal with all the world's crises.

Ben Rhodes (29:46)

Yeah. Including one where, you know, you presumably have a lot of, of leverage on Israel. The, the UN Secretary General condemned the decision. But I mean the, the Israelis just flattened the UN facility in East Jerusalem for unra. It literally. People should look at this online. It's completely destroyed the UN headquarters there. That tells you how much sway the UN has there. The Arab states released a statement, you know, saying Israel's accelerating attempts at illegal annexation and the displacement of the Palestinian people. But okay, that's another set of words. So it does feel like there's not really any pushback to these. The Israelis are pushing and testing. Now, presumably the body that would take up this kind of challenge is the un. But Trump meanwhile is seeking to replace that with the Board of Peace, which is having its inaugural meeting on Thursday, right in time for Ramadan. I want to bring in Gaza here too, because in Gaza we've seen just, I'd say violations of the ceasefire from Israel repeatedly. But it's not even really a ceasefire if you're just allowed to periodically bomb Gaza and kill hundreds of people. Now Hamas also said that they're not going to disarm in these circumstances. Netanyahu said over the weekend that Israel would refuse to move to the next phase of ceaseire without that disarmament. Netanyahu's cabinet secretary has said on Monday that the Trump administration has asked for a 60 day grace period for Hamas to disarm. And if they fail to do so, then he says, quote, the IDF will have to complete the mission. Not sure what the mission is other than kind of the complete further destruction of Gaza. So it doesn't feel like the, the whole, you know, peace plan is going well. We have this meeting of the Board of Peace. I want to just throw one more thing into this mix. Amen. Which is there's one man who's very excited about what's happening over there, and that's Lindsey Graham. He made another trip to Israel. He seems to go there more than South Carolina. He's very excited about all the wars that could be upcoming. I want to play a clip here from Lindsey Graham. The wars of the future are being planned here in Israel because if you're not one step ahead of the enemy, you suffer. The most clever, creative military forces on the planet are here in Israel because they have to be to survive. So what we're looking at is that Israel is advancing down the road of new weaponry far beyond us. And it would be nice to have a process where we could be partners. So the wars of the future being planned in Israel.

Eamon Mohildeen (32:29)

There'S nothing like a US Senator going overseas to take a jab at America's own military. There's nothing, there's nothing that sounds more America first than going to Israel and say, hey, these guys really are doing such a great job with their military equipment. I wish we could learn from them. Let's try to partner up with them. I mean, it's just like I don't the optics of it, right? I mean, it used to be a time that when you're a senator, a Republican senator from South Carolina or from elsewhere, that you would talk about the strength of the American military and how America's military is a force for good or what have you. Not go to Israel and say we got to learn from them. These guys are such amazing warriors. Not like ours back home in the.

Ben Rhodes (33:07)

U.S. yeah, I mean, he just could barely contain his excitement. I mean, you've covered Gaza just as well as any journalist over the last 15 years. I mean, when you look at this board of Peace meeting, what do you expect out of that? Where do you see this ceasefire process going in the next few weeks?

Eamon Mohildeen (33:25)

So I think I'll start with where I think the ceasefire is. This so called ceasefire, because I totally agree with you. I don't think it's a ceasefire. Israel has been acting with impunity, has violated it every step of the way, has not even implemented it, let alone violated. When it comes to the issue of Gaza, you don't have to take my word for it. You just have to listen to Israeli security and intelligence officials who are very clear that there is no way to destroy the idea of Hamas inside of Gaza. You, Israelis, security officials, are openly talking about how they've destroyed the entire upper echelon of Hamas's rank and command structure, if you will, or command and control structure, if you will. They've killed all the senior leaders, political leaders, military leaders, Muhammad, you name it, they've killed them. And yet the organization has persisted in its ability to retain whatever control of Gaza exists. It still has battalions of fighters on the ground. American intelligence has assessed that Hamas, in the span of two years of going through this genocide, has managed to recruit and fill its ranks with the same number of people that Israel has allegedly killed over the course of those two years. So as a net whole, the organization maybe has suffered in its capabilities and has been degraded, no doubt about that, but has not been destroyed. And the idea that has given birth to Hamas is still very much planted in Gaza. And it's not an idea, is something that is going to be uprooted with bombs and drones and surveillance. And, and what we've seen over the past two years, again, that's, that is literally the assessment of both American intelligence officials as well as Israeli intelligence officials. What Netanyahu is doing is he knows very well that there is an attempt to try and stabilize the situation in Gaza. And what I mean by stabilize is to try to contain Israel from resuming full scale a full blown war. And you know, he's got people in his right wing government that are agitating to resettle, to repopulate Gaza with Jewish settlers and to make Gaza part of Greater Israel. They've openly talked about, even, even during the ceasefire, they've openly talked about the need to expel or force Palestinians out of Gaza into Egypt so that they can retake control of that land. And we've obviously heard Jared Kushner's amazing condo resort plan at Davos, at Davos earlier this year. And you know, technology corridors and parks and amazing, you know, they just basically want to take a genocide and the, the ruins of a genocide and just completely whitewash it with tourism, parks and, and surf clubs and who knows what else they have in store for Gaza. Look, this, these are, these are deranged ideas. Deranged ideas. And as you said, the Board of Peace is the least of those deranged ideas. And I know a lot of people who've been talking to me unofficially about it. Nobody takes the Board of Peace seriously. People are indulging Donald Trump very much like the president of FIFA Gave him a trophy, calling him, you know, the FIFA Peace Prize. Right. The Board of Peace is no different. These are world leaders who are preoccupied with governing their countries, trying to deal with all kinds of issues domestically and internationally, and they have to deal with a narcissistic American president who just wants to constantly make himself king of the world. And so instead of standing up to him and confronting him, much to our detriment, as American citizens who would like to see the world also stand up to an American president, they have to kind of go along with it because they have to take care of their constituents. And in some cases, these countries just don't want to be in an open, direct confrontation with the United States, rhetorically or even economically. Right. I mean, some of the policies that, that these countries are embarking on just to go along with the US Is to avoid tariffs and to avoid confrontation and try to placate a president who's like, extremely narcissistic. So again, do I think that the Board of Peace is going to deliver on anything? I personally don't. I don't know anyone who's purely optimistic about it other than Jared Kushner. But again, I think he's selling a real estate plan. I don't think he's genuinely selling any kind of just mechanism for the Palestinian people or security for Israeli people.

Ben Rhodes (37:37)

Yeah, well, you know, one thing, and I constantly point this out too, one sign that we're moving different stage would be if they actually let international journalists into Gaza to see what happened there. And that still has not happened.

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Eamon Mohildeen (40:40)

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Ben Rhodes (40:56)

Let's talk about the latest in Iran, which is, you know, you and I talk to people in the region. That's what everybody is very worried about right now and focused on that. There's this ongoing threat of US Military action. There's a lot of US Military assets in the region. And there have been these indirect nuclear negotiations between the US and the Iranian government, which have been mediated by Oman. On Tuesday, there were talks in Switzerland. They ended after what Oman's foreign minister called good progress, but we don't really know what that means. The Iranian foreign minister said that both sides had agreed to, quote, a set of guiding principles and told State TV that this round of talks were more constructive and the progress was made. You know, kind of buzzwords of diplomacy without any details. This round of negotiations came after a visit to the White House by Benjamin Netanyahu last week. At that meeting, Trump and Netanyahu apparently agreed to ramp up the economic pressure, as if there's anything more you can do to sanction the Iranians. But they talked about targeting oil sales to China, which would be, you know, would involve sanctions on the Chinese, which would be further strain on the global economy. I will say also that nobody's talking about the protesters anymore who, you know, clearly there were thousands of people killed. That was the basis under which Trump said he was going to take military action. But now we're just talking about nuclear issues and ballistic missiles. I know we're reading tea leaves here, Eamon, but what is your read on the kind of, of state of play with Iran? What are you hearing from the region about, you know, people's concerns or maybe hopes for what's happening?

Eamon Mohildeen (42:33)

Yeah, I mean, listen, I definitely want to answer that, but I was going to actually ask you because, you know, Riza Pahlavi was speaking at the Munich Security Conference, and actually, I was going to ask you about that in terms of, I don't know if you had a chance to hear him talk, but I'm curious to get your thoughts about how he's kind of been elevated on the global stage now. Right, all of a sudden. And look, he's always had his followers, the monarchists always supported him, and they've always kind of thought of him as a legitimate replacement to the regime. I don't think a lot of people in the Iranian diaspora or even in the Iranian opposition necessarily took him seriously. But in the last couple of weeks, and certainly in the last couple of months, there has been this kind of concerted push to elevate him by Western leaders. And so how was he received at the Munich Security Conference? What did he say? Because I think there's been criticism that he's being put in these platforms. He's not being really tested with the questions that he's being asked. He's not giving a very clear vision about what he wants to do. Because the way that I kind of look at Iran, and I can talk about this in a second, is it's kind of about the 3ds, right? Like the day of a potential collapse of a regime, the day after, and then the decade after. What happens in those three periods of time, the day that the regime is gone, the day after the regime is gone, and then the decade after. And I have my reservations about how it will look like, but what was your take from listening to Shah Riza speak at.

Ben Rhodes (43:52)

Yeah, yeah, no, it was fascinating because first of all, inside the security conference and all the side events, look, really, the focus was on Ukraine and European defense spending and these issues, you know, Greenland. But outside, there were like, you know, Republicans, tens and tens, if not hundreds of thousands of people there to see Reza Pahlavi speak. He was kind of. He was on the world stage. He was meeting with leaders. He met with Zelensky, who, I mean, he's trying to kind of obviously be on the right side of Trump. We've seen Pahlavi with Netanyahu. So first of all, the read in the rooms that I was in was that that this guy can't really be. Nobody could really explain the scenario by which he's going to somehow become a leader inside of Iran. Literally nobody I talked to seemed to think there was a practical way in which the U.S. bombs Iran. And I should say what Pahlavi was saying was militarily intervene. So kind of a strange situation where you have somebody asking the US to bomb his country. That's where he's putting all of his cards. We need intervention. And then he basically was promising, then you'll have a good regime. And he was saying, not only is that right for the protesters, not only is that delivering democracy, but he was saying, I will be your strategic partner. Oil will be available. And actually, a lot of people were speculating, well, maybe Trump's real interest in Iran is the oil, which is actually not something that's discussed a lot publicly, but that it's not the nuclear issue and it's not the Human rights concerns, it's that, like Venezuela, Iran could be a source of oil for the United States or taking that away from China, that's the biggest buyer of that oil. So that was kind of the mood music, I think there was also another interesting dynamic, Eamon, where he has gotten a lot of support in the diaspora. But a lot of people I talked to were like, I don't know that that's the same as in the country. And yet people in the country absolutely want change. They're sick of this regime. They want Khamenei gone. Like, he's old, he's been around forever. But there was a sense that there's this growing gap that's maybe not particularly healthy between the diaspora that is kind of going along with the Pahlavi play and people inside the country. So that was kind of the read I got.

Eamon Mohildeen (46:23)

Yeah. And listen, I think that's exactly what this issue is. And we can be mature and hold two separate ideas. The people of Iran want this regime gone. And the people of Iran deserve to have their aspirations heard and fulfilled. And they should determine their own future. They are entitled to self determination, free from autocracy, theocracy, like any other grouping of people in the world. Nobody that has spoken about this issue has offered a clear and concise plan as to what the day after the collapse of a regime looks like. And you know, I covered the Iraq war. I remember a lot of Iraqi opposition figures who wanted American military intervention to destroy Saddam Hussein and his regime and to get rid of the Ba' Athist regime in Iraq. And so what I, as a journalist learned covering the Iraq war was that for America and American military might, it's probably pretty easy to destroy a regime. It's probably pretty easy to kill the senior leadership of the Iranian regime. And in fact, Israel demonstrated that they were able to do that in July relatively easily, I would say. But it did not destroy the regime. And so any American military involvement to try to topple this regime cannot just be about killing senior figures who run ministries or run governments or run various security apparatuses or religious organizations and institutions. You're talking about a regime that has been entrenched in Iranian society for almost 47 years. You're talking about a country of 90 million people that has a regime structure that probably includes about 20 million people. Even if you say 10 million of them or 15 million of them are just servants of the state and, or civil servants of the state are not, not hardcore loyalists, what happens to the 2 million or 3 million loyalists of the regime, once the regime is collapsed, and then they are now inside this country and are not allowed to be a part of a political process or not allowed to be a part of any kind of process in which a leader is imposed on them and they now reject that leader. That's exactly what we saw happen in Iraq. Now, are you telling me that the Iraqi people.

Ben Rhodes (48:39)

And they're heavily armed. And they're heavily armed? Yeah.

Eamon Mohildeen (48:41)

Yeah, they were heavily armed. Paul Bremer in the cpa, of course, at the time, dissolved. The entire state, dissolved Baathists. And so you had. You woke up one day and all the people who were working in this state picked up arms and started fighting the Americans. So unless you're willing to put American troops on the ground inside of Iran to preserve the integrity of the state, there are a lot of questions as to whether or not the state will fracture along ethnic lines and you'll have separatist movements in various parts of the country. We're already hearing some troubling language coming out from various parts, parts of the Iranian diaspora that speak to this ethnic division. And, you know, it's. It's important, whoever emerges as a potential leader, for the Iranian people, to emphasize territorial integrity, to emphasize a cohesive country that incorporates Iran's diversity. But I think people who are just saying, like, oh, let's get rid of the regime and plant a new opposition leader who's going to be a transitional leader, but offer no plan and offer no system and offer no insight and not be tested and not even talk about what kind of infrastructure that leader has currently inside Iran, I think that's very troubling, and I think it puts a lot of the countries in the region on edge. Because if you thought the Iraq war and the refugee crisis that it created across the region for countries like Jordan, for countries like Turkey, for countries in Europe, for countries in the Gulf, if you thought that was a problem, imagine a country of 90 million people, including Iranians, spilling over all across the area and having porous borders with Afghanistan or Pakistan or elsewhere. And see then what kind of crises may emerge in terms of national transnational security issues, whether it's in Europe or in the Gulf.

Ben Rhodes (50:30)

Yeah, I mean, this came up, and you don't see it discussed much, but, you know, four times the size of Syria. And if you have an implosion in Iran, you could have refugee, millions of refugees into Europe, into Afghanistan. Right. The best case scenario I can. You know, clearly these talks are playing for time. You get a deal. I mean, you know, Khamenei 7 is 87 years old. He's sick. There's a sense that if he's dies or you know, that's going to happen relatively soon, that there you could see this evolution of the the evolution of the regime in a different direction. Okay, we're going to take a quick break. But first, subscribers are loving the new content that we're dropping for Friends of the Pod Pod Save America Only Friends. A new episode dropped Thursday with Alex Wagner and Aaron Ryan. Open Tabs, a behind the scenes newsletter from Pod Save America editor Reed Churlin. Subscribers also get, of course, ad free content to Pod Save the World exclusive Q&As with me and Tommy and additional bonus content like one of my favorite shows on the Crooked Verse, Polar Coaster with Dan Pfeiffer. New episodes are dropping this Thursday. Subscribing supports independent progressive media as well, as you hear us say it allows us to really grow what we do here at Crooked. It gives you access to a great community of fellow Crooked listeners across the country and around the world. So Please subscribe to Friendsofthepod.com friends I will say I also have a new book coming out. I've talked about this. On May 26, all we the Battle for American A History in 15 Speeches. Please check that out. Pre orders are available now wherever you pre order books and you can check out my substack. We'll link to both in the show Notes.

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Eamon Mohildeen (52:26)

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Eamon Mohildeen (54:03)

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Ben Rhodes (54:39)

Look, we have a depressing theme here because now we're on Cuba and the theme is places that are on the verge of collapse here in Latin America. We should note this is kind of clearly where post the Maduro ouster, Trump and Rocco Rubio focused on Cuba and really have cracked down on. It's already a decades long embargo on Cuba, briefly interrupted by me in the Obama years for a couple of years when we normalize things and open things up a bit. But Cubans are suffering immensely and I just want to spotlight how much Cubans are suffering from this kind of blockade that has now spread very much to cutting off any oil getting in. Gas and fuel supplies have been cut off. That's causing long blackouts. That's leading to fuel shortages. Havana's airport is out of jet fuel. There's a recent op ed from two friends of mine, Emily Mandrala and Maria Jose Espinoza and El Pais, that was published today. They kind of go through this humanitarian crisis. They analyze satellite imagery and they found for instance, that light levels the ability of electricity fell by 50% in January. Right. So people don't have electricity. That has impacts on hospitals, that has impacts on people's ability to have basic needs met. You've had this kind of collapse in Cuba's gdp. You've had Cubans protesting, but as in Iran, like the government still has the guns, right? And so you're Seeing more and more people criticizing this international community. The UN Human rights chief Volko Chirk has criticized the sanctions and asked the countries not hold back oil deliveries to Cuba in line with Trump's demands. Mexico is providing some humanitarian aid. Claudia Scheinbaum's been outspoken about this. Pedro Sanchez in Spain, I saw is gonna start to provide some assistance. But really, it feels like we're reaching some kind of breaking point now. Trump was asked about this on Air Force One Yester. Here's what he had to say.

Eamon Mohildeen (56:32)

We're warning Cuba to make a deal.

Ben Rhodes (56:34)

What does that deal look like?

Eamon Mohildeen (56:36)

What do you want them to do?

Donald Trump (56:37)

Cuba is right now a failed nation. They don't even have jet fuel to get for airplanes to take off. They're clogging up their Runway. We're talking to Cuba right now. I have Marco Rubio talking to Cuba right now. And they should absolutely make a deal because it's a humanity. It's really a humanitarian threat. And we have a lot of great Cuban Americans, and they're going to be very happy when they're going to be able to go back and say hello to their relatives and do things that they should have been allowed to do for a long time.

Ben Rhodes (57:06)

If a deal isn't made, would you consider an operation like the one in Venezuela?

Donald Trump (57:11)

I don't want to answer that. Why would I answer that if I was. It wouldn't be a very tough operation, as you can figure, but I don't think that'll be necessary.

Ben Rhodes (57:21)

All right, Eamon, you know, eerily like Iran, right? I mean, there's not really a government. I mean, you can't just move a government from Miami down to Cuba. The place implodes. We're going to have refugees into the United States. We could have kind of a Haiti 90 miles from Florida. What do you make of where this Cuba thing is going? And why do you think it's not getting more attention?

Eamon Mohildeen (57:42)

You know, I mean, can I just say really quickly two things. One, Donald Trump suddenly caring about Cuban Americans being able to go say hi to their relatives is like the. Just the absurdity of. Well, he's. By the way, that's exactly what. That's exactly what President Obama did. President Obama made it possible for Cuban Americans to go down and say hello to their relatives and actually try to cooperate.

Ben Rhodes (58:01)

And they did. And they did. It drives me. You're. You're hitting my buttons, man, because it drives me fucking nuts because those things were happening.

Eamon Mohildeen (58:08)

And he's making it sound like he's doing it for humanitarian Purposes, right. He's like, oh, we want them to be able to go down there and say hi to their relatives, because it's a mess. Well, a, There's a similarity between the mess that you're seeing in Cuba and the mess that you're seeing in Iran, because all you have to do is listen to Scott Bass, the, The Treasury Secretary, who basically said, look, we collapsed the Iranian currency, which led to the protests, taken to the streets. And now you're seeing the same playbook in Cuba, which is we are the ones who are making the economic conditions so miserable for the people in Cuba that they're going to go out to the streets to protest. And what's going to happen is they're going to get gunned down and killed because of a policy that we're trying to implement by collapsing their economies. So let's just be very clear about that and speak very clearly about what the United States is doing in Cuba and Iran is implode these countries economically, make the people suffer. They go out to the streets to demand a better country. They get gunned down, and we abandon them, as we are now currently doing in Iran. We'll see if, whether the president, when he said, you know, we're locked and loaded, or we're ready to help, we'll see what that actually means. And we'll see what that happens, what that means actually in Cuba. But the idea that the United States. And for me, look, the administration has tried to, to portray Cuba as a threat to America, right? As a national security threat. That's a joke. Let's just be very clear about that. Cuba is not a threat to the United States of America. This is just something that Marco Rubio is personally obsessed with. Marco Rubio wants to deliver the collapse of Cuba to, to the United States. And by the way, again, I love that Donald Trump says Castro. Is it like we're talking to Castro? He doesn't even know that the president of Cuba is no longer Castro. It's not even his brother. So, like, here he is. Is kind of just clueless. Absolutely clueless. A president who's running a country that is clueless. But you have Marco Rubio, who's hell bent on regime change in Cuba, just the same way that you have the Israeli Prime Minister, Benjamin Netanyahu, hell bent on regime change in Iran. And, and that's what scares me the most, is that these people are just out this. You know, they're doing this for either personal gripes or for whatever ideological reasons, but it's clear that Cuba is not a threat to the United States of America. It will be if it collapses. And as you said, thousands, if not tens of thousands of refugees stream across into the United States. And again, Donald Trump doesn't give a damn about Cubans migrants, doesn't care about Venezuelans. He revoked their tps, their temporary protective status in the United States. He's done that for Haitians. He's done. He's deporting people back to the Middle East. He's deporting Iranians back to the regime in Iran. He doesn't care about these people. Give me a break.

Ben Rhodes (60:37)

Yeah, I mean. All right, I'm going to just, just say one thing about this, because this drives me nuts. Because first of all, you're right about the national security threat. There is none from Cuba.

Eamon Mohildeen (60:47)

None.

Ben Rhodes (60:47)

They can't even identify it. And that's what's interesting about these talks, because with Iran, you at least know they could be talking about nuclear weapons or ballistic missiles. Cuba has nothing to trade away in talks. There's no threat. They don't support drug. They're actually very anti drug trafficking. So what you're trying to negotiate, I guess, is regime change, which is, you know, how does a regime negotiate its own collapse? Maybe they can come up with something and like release some political prisoners. I don't know what. But it's not gonna be enough for Marco Rubio. Cause he wants regime change. And the thing I'm just gonna like, complain about here, Eamon, is that like, you know, in the Obama years, we get all this scrutiny about, you know, what are you doing on the human rights questions? And we did a lot, by the way. We got a lot of political prisoners out. We got Internet into that country. But you know what? But you get this focus on the treatment of dissidents in Cuba. That's important. But starving millions of people is worse for human rights than even dozens of dissidents being imprisoned. Why is that not a human rights problem? Why is US Policy being basically collective punishment of Cubans? Largely Afro Cubans, I should note. Why is that not an issue?

Eamon Mohildeen (61:57)

Afro Cubans don't have a strong political constituency in the United States.

Ben Rhodes (62:01)

Yeah, they don't. And the constituency that is is harder line and supports Rubio. And I get it, like the Cuban government has been. They've mismanaged things. They have outdated economic models. They repress people. It's also the case that if you put a total embargo on a country, they can't change. You know, you're fossilizing it. And there's A reason they drive old cars from the 50s because they can't get parts for any new cars. Right. And it's same thing true with politics. If you can't get exposed to different ideas and different people, like how are you going to evolve? But anyway, I could talk about Cuba all day just on our tour of repressive regimes. This one I just want to kind of give a quick update. South Korea's intelligence service has said that girl dad, Kim Jong Un is selecting his 13 year old daughter Kim Jui as his heir. Which, you know, I guess is the most progressive thing we've seen out of North Korea in a while. But I don't have a lot of hope for change. She's been showing up at events with Kim, you know, that means she shows up and looks at things with him, which seems she's being groomed to be a successor. The Telegraph breathlessly reported that this could spark a power struggle though between the 13 year old and her 38 year old aunt, Kim Yo Jong, who had previously been thought of as a potential kind of power behind the throne, if not successor, who the paper claims is scheming for the position herself. So we'll see the soap opera that is the succession in North Korea. I mean this matters by the way, just because Kim does not look like he's in perfect health aiming I don't know what you think here, but anyway.

Eamon Mohildeen (63:33)

Well, unless they've managed to like smuggle an Ozempic into the country, I don't think his and I again, you know, just the optics of it just does not look like he's in in healthy shape, you know.

Ben Rhodes (63:45)

No.

Eamon Mohildeen (63:46)

In fact, he's playing one on one with Dennis Rodman that we don't know about and is like slimming down.

Ben Rhodes (63:51)

He's one of the few leaders you still see smoking in public at events.

Eamon Mohildeen (63:54)

Right, Exactly.

Ben Rhodes (63:55)

I want to end on one positive note here because we've had a dark thing and we're going to pour one out for Rick Grinnell, Twitter troll, previously ambassador to Germany in the first Trump term, Acting Director of National Intelligence, supporter of the big lie after the 2020 election, called, quote, one of the most nasty, dishonest people I've ever encountered by friend of the pod, Susan Rice, who got to know him in the UN context. Look, I don't want to go through Grinnell's bio here, but there have been a number of stories recently that say that he's clearly fallen out of circles. He overplayed his hand. He offended Susie Wiles, the White House chief of staff. She seems to hate his guts. One embarrassing example that came out recently, I think was in the Daily Mail. Grinnell thought he arranged for the Serbian president to meet Trump in Florida. But Susie Wiles blocked the meeting, which left Grinnell looking like an idiot. He can't even seem to do his corruption right. He was working on that half a billion dollar real estate deal in Serbia with Jared Kushner that's now been called off. Kushner's pulled out of it. So it's not going well for Rick, other than the Trump Kennedy center renovation here. Eamon, my question to you. Did you ever cross paths with Grinnell, and are you feeling sorry?

Eamon Mohildeen (65:11)

Not personally, but we've exchanged messages on. I think he. He attacked me on. On Twitter, as you would expect, when it was related to Gaza and Israel coverage, of course. Look, Rick Renell is a joke of an official on every level. I know people who have had to deal with him. I have never heard anyone in the spaces that I have interacted with, both at the United nations, in global diplomacy, who have had to say any nice things about Rick Grenell. He is a laughingstock. And he's. To some extent, he. This is kind of like a perfect end to his career with the Trump administration. This was a man who was kind of like trying to boast about potentially being a vice presidential candidate and then was parked at the Kennedy center, and then the Kennedy center wasn't selling tickets, nobody wanted to attend anything. Big acts were canceling, and Rick Grenell was just, like, sitting there in the Kennedy center all by. So much so that they were like, you know what? Let's just renovate the Kennedy center to make it look like the Kennedy center is closed for renovations. When in reality, we all know that the reason why the Kennedy center is closed is because it was once a source of national pride and now it is a source of humiliation when people look at it and be like, we can't believe that this institution of the performing arts that beared the name of one of America's great presidents, or certainly one of its most progressive presidents, has to now share that with the Trump family. And Rick Grenell, the most despised person within this administration, even according to Susie Wiles, who in that article says, you know, I mean, you know, we don't hate each other, but, you know, we don't necessarily get along more or less. And Rick Grinnell has now been basically reduced to a construction project manager. He's general. He's the general contractor overseeing the renovations at the Kennedy Center. Nobody wants to deal with him.

Ben Rhodes (67:06)

Well, you know, he is a deep, long standing patron of the arts, so maybe, you know, he'll carry out his passions there. But it's not always nice to see that there is, you know, accountability that circles back to some of these people. Look, Eamon, I want to thank you so much for walking through all this, for co hosting today again. People can watch you on ms, where you host the weekend Primetime which airs Saturdays and Sundays at 6 Eastern. Also, maybe some of the content from Crooked will make its way on Ms. Now.

Eamon Mohildeen (67:37)

Absolutely.

Ben Rhodes (67:38)

Is there anything else you're up to anywhere else people can follow you that we should be looking for?

Eamon Mohildeen (67:43)

Listen, I'm very active on social media, so on Instagram, Aminem, I post a lot of stuff. I do a lot of commentary there. We have a lot of clips of the show. I write for our digital column. I have an op ed that I write for Ms. Now so you can read monthly columns there and everywhere else. You know, try to be as everywhere as possible these days.

Ben Rhodes (68:03)

Yeah, no show up everywhere. Well, look, thank you for showing up here. We really appreciate it and we will see you all next week time and we'll be back. Thanks very much.

Eamon Mohildeen (68:12)

Absolutely. Thanks, Ben.

Ben Rhodes (68:13)

See ya.

Ad Host (68:18)

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