Tommy Vietor (2:55)

Ben, this morning I saw a bunch of coverage of Jeff Bezos kind of buying the Met Gala. And then I read a story about the family that owns Samsung paying an 8 billion dollar inheritance tax bill. And I thought, we could do that.

Ben Rhodes (3:09)

Maybe the Koreans know something we don't.

Tommy Vietor (3:10)

It would be cool to do that.

Ben Rhodes (3:11)

We can actually collect money from these people so they don't buy all your cultural institutions. Not that I. I don't know. Not that the Met Gala is always my jam, but. No, there's something kind of gross about it.

Tommy Vietor (3:22)

Yeah, you know, it's a little late stage capitalism. You know, whatever.

Ben Rhodes (3:25)

It's very like collapsing Roman Empire vibes.

Tommy Vietor (3:28)

Caligula.

Ben Rhodes (3:29)

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Tommy Vietor (3:30)

Anyway, but yeah, it did make me think, like, oh, yeah, we remember all that ranting and raving about the death tax and how it'll hurt farmers and all this bullshit. Now it's just protecting billionaires who pay.

Ben Rhodes (3:40)

Well. He didn't get invited to any of the good parties in high school, so now he has to buy the biggest party in the world for his wife.

Tommy Vietor (3:45)

Honestly, not a bad strategy. It's fun. I'll see. Buy your way to space. You can do whatever you want these days.

Ben Rhodes (3:49)

I'd like. I just want to note because there's a lot of. My algorithm has trained me for Nick's Twitter and absolutely pasted the Sixers yesterday. Getting revenge for you, Celtics, just. But there's a huge divide because Ben Stiller, Nick Superfan, went to the Met Gala. He's getting dragged pretty hard.

Tommy Vietor (4:08)

Why?

Ben Rhodes (4:10)

I give him a pass. He's always there. I'm not mad. Ben Stiller. I will note that Timmy Chalamet went to the game.

Tommy Vietor (4:16)

Oh, I see. Instead of going to the game.

Ben Rhodes (4:17)

Yeah.

Tommy Vietor (4:18)

Did you also. I also love when Ben Stiller tweeted. Well, we got that done, clearly, about the Knicks, and people thought it was about the Correspondence center assassination.

Ben Rhodes (4:27)

This is really fun. So I have a Nick's text read with my best friends from high school, and it's the funniest thread because it's literally like, we know we're watching the game, so we'll just be like, og Got it.

Tommy Vietor (4:37)

No context.

Ben Rhodes (4:38)

Ben Stiller literally tweets like, he's on our thread. Have no idea what he's talking about. It's just like, we got it. Oh, we almost had it. And then these MAGA people are like, I can't believe you. Can't believe you said we almost got Trump.

Tommy Vietor (4:49)

Like, you nerds just not everything is politics.

Ben Rhodes (4:52)

Even for us, right?

Tommy Vietor (4:53)

Even for us.

Ben Rhodes (4:54)

Even us. We like sports.

Tommy Vietor (4:55)

Even these nerds agree. We got a great show today. We're going to cover all the latest from Iran, from Trump's plan to guide ships through the street of Hormuz, and why the administration is insisting that the US And Iran literally firing at each other. They sank a bunch of boats. Apparently that's not a ceasefire violation. Interesting. Then we'll talk about some newly leaked intelligence about the impact of the US And Israeli bombing campaign on Iran's nuclear infrastructure, or lack thereof, and whether there's any semblance of a plan or an end game for negotiations. We'll dig into the politics back home, some polling data from the Post over the weekend, and then we'll tell you guys what we've heard from people on the ground in Iran. We'll also cover how this is impacting Trump's upcoming trip to China, the latest from Lebanon and the truly hellish situation on the ground for people in Gaza, and the lack of any reconstruction efforts. That we're going to do an update on the war between Russia and Ukraine, the political situation in Russia, and then we'll have a little fun at the end at the expense of a US Ambassador. Ben hasn't seen any of this.

Ben Rhodes (5:50)

I don't know what this is. I. Michael has a sense of humor that usually lands.

Tommy Vietor (5:54)

This will be fun.

Ben Rhodes (5:54)

Trusting Michael.

Tommy Vietor (5:56)

Trust, trust the plan. And then you'll hear my interview with Congressman Jason Crow from Colorado, who you know well, Ben, we talk about Iran efforts by Congress to force an authorization of the war. His grilling of Pete Hegseth last week, he took an interesting tackle focused on this one really shady staffer at the Pentagon and made some interesting news. Then we talk about Trump's plan to move troops out of Germany because the chancellor of Germany hurt Trump's feelings.

Ben Rhodes (6:21)

Can I just say, because we kick around Democrats as they need to be kicked around a fair amount on not just this show, but I notice Ken Martin, Jason Crowe's great dude and gets it and is taking on Trump on the war in the right ways, is leading the dccc, the Congressional Campaign Committee, candidate recruitment. Anyway, every now and then we need to point out that there's some good Democrats.

Tommy Vietor (6:45)

Yeah, there's some great Democrats out there. It's easier to be mean than nice. But you're right. It's good.

Ben Rhodes (6:50)

Well, unfortunately, the Democratic Party gives us a lot of reasons.

Tommy Vietor (6:52)

A lot of reasons to be mean. And by the way, Ben is actually doing today's episode Topless to help us get more views on the Pod save the World YouTube page. Thank you for your service. Ben, you're looking great. You've been working out. That's probably a joke, but you're gonna have to subscribe to find out. But please subscribe to Pod Save the world on YouTube to ensure you don't miss any pop tops. Any bonus episodes we do there about breaking news. Also, you help us display Spence out of the YouTube algorithm, and fast.

Ben Rhodes (7:16)

You may need to come up with someone other than Ben Shapiro, because I noticed the Daily Wire numbers are tanking. Tanking. Tough, tough, tough. Turns out, just being dyed in the wool. And Netanyahu supporters not.

Tommy Vietor (7:25)

Yeah, it turns out being just pro war neocon propaganda isn't as profitable as saying Emmanuel Macron's wife has a dick. Apparently, that's how you kill it in media these days.

Ben Rhodes (7:35)

Maybe we'll get there.

Tommy Vietor (7:36)

We have Candace over here.

Ben Rhodes (7:38)

Get subs.

Tommy Vietor (7:39)

We got Pablo Tor winning a Pulitzer for sports reporting and just telling you that. I don't know, we land somewhere in the middle. No, Pablo's the best. Adam. Pod Save America a while back.

Ben Rhodes (7:47)

Also Pulitzer Prize winner.

Tommy Vietor (7:48)

Yeah, Pulitzer Prize winner. If you like the work Crooked Media is doing, by the way, please consider becoming a paid subscriber@crooked.com friends. You get ad free episodes of this show. Ad free episodes of Pod Safe America. You get great bonus content from Pod Safe America. You get Dan Pfeiffer diving deep to polling. And it's really the single best thing you can do to help us grow as a progressive independent media company. Also, subscribers get early access and discounted tickets to Crooked Con and other crooked con perks. TBD. Maybe more topless Ben at CrookedCon. Oh, possible it's the first time you're hearing about this, but there is a. There's a movement.

Ben Rhodes (8:19)

Me and Hasan Piker will go topless together. We'll see you as a better body. Yeah, it's probably not me.

Tommy Vietor (8:24)

I think I know who it is. Not you. Hasan. Crooked Con. You know that Jordan and our team works out at Hasan's house in West Hollywood.

Ben Rhodes (8:31)

Oh, really?

Tommy Vietor (8:32)

Crushing burpees and stuff? Yeah, socialist burpees. It's pretty cool. Crooked con happening November 5th through 7th in DC. Go to crookedcon.com for more info. Should we talk about Iran?

Ben Rhodes (8:44)

I think we should. I think we should, because somebody has to, you know, wade into the cesspool of lies this morass emanates from our government.

Tommy Vietor (8:52)

Yeah, straight of bullshit. So the big news this week is this Pentagon plan to quote, unquote, guide ships through the Strait of Hormuz. Not escort and defend guide. It's called Project Freedom, I guess to your freedom. The freedom to get shot at.

Ben Rhodes (9:05)

Epic Fury.

Tommy Vietor (9:06)

It's still ongoing. It's paused.

Ben Rhodes (9:07)

Trump was so happy about that name.

Tommy Vietor (9:09)

Yeah, he did really love that name, Project Freedom. Again, Hegseth says this is a distinct mission from Epic Fury. It's not a naval escort mission. He and Trump also insist that Iran firing at US Navy ships in the Strait of Hormuz, firing at targets in the UAE and Oman, at a South Korean ship, the list goes on. Is not a breach of the ceasefire. And CENTCOM also says that US Helicopters sinking six Iranian boats, also not a breach of the ceasefire. I guess that probably tells you everything you need to know.

Ben Rhodes (9:37)

They're giving the Iranians, I guess, the same treatment they give the Israelis, which they can bomb Gaza and Lebanon with impunity and still say there's a cease pass.

Tommy Vietor (9:44)

It also probably tells you that Trump does not want to go back to war. Anyway, here is Hegseth talking about this new mission on Tuesday morning in a press event.

Pete Hegseth (9:52)

This operation is separate and distinct from from Operation Epic Fury. Project Freedom is defensive in nature, focused in scope, and temporary in duration, with one mission, protecting innocent commercial shipping from Iranian aggression. American forces won't need to enter Iranian waters or airspace. It's not necessary. We're not looking for a fight. But Iran also cannot be allowed to block innocent countries and their goods from an international waterway. Iran is the clear aggressor. As a direct gift from the United States to the world, we have established a powerful red, white, and blue dome over the Strait. Once again, America is using its strength to lift up others. Iran is trying to subjugate the world to our partners, allies, and the rest of the world. This is a temporary mission for us. As I've said before, the world needs this waterway a lot more than we do. We're stabilizing the situation so commerce can flow again. But we expect the world to step up at the appropriate time, and soon we will hand responsibility back to you.

Tommy Vietor (11:06)

Giving the world a devil?

Ben Rhodes (11:07)

Is it like world B Free? Remember that basketball player? He talks about the world like it's a guy. Like some guy named World Step up.

Tommy Vietor (11:14)

Something about the way he talks just annoys the shit out of everything. It's his cat in a hat. War, crime, beat, poetry, not. It just drives me nuts. So CENTCOM says Project Freedom will involve guided missile destroyers, over 100 land and sea aircraft and 15,000 service members. They're also like very clearly eager to hand this mess off to other countries soon, Ben. So I imagine they'll be cutting and running.

Ben Rhodes (11:35)

Sure. There are a lot of takers.

Tommy Vietor (11:36)

Yeah, yeah, a lot of. So Ben, look, I'm genuinely confused by the end game here for Trump. Like there's no chance this half ass plan to like quote unquote guide ships is going to get traffic through the strait back to pre war levels. I guess we can hand it off to other countries like you, you said, but like no one has our naval capacity. So I guess, you know, maybe everybody just ends up paying a toll or the strait remains, remains partially closed and it just crushes the global economy. I don't know. So like I'm trying to be charitable here. I'm trying to genuinely understand the strategy for the strait. Before we get into the nuclear stuff, do you have any like sense of what they're doing?

Ben Rhodes (12:11)

I think that the fact that we're sitting here two months into this war and a war that was started again to change the regime and the nuclear program and usher in freedom in Iran has led to Project Freedom to be a GPS service for ships that are already stuck in Hormuz. It just shows you the catastrophic error. Again, there are a number of things that jumped out to me they are worried about the absence of legal bases. So the reason I think that they're going to these great lengths to call it a Project Freedom and say it's distinct from Epic Fury is because under the War Powers act, which they have ignored, that's the act that says Congress must authorize a war. You can kind of get a 60 day period where you're allowed to engage in military action before you really get in trouble.

Tommy Vietor (13:08)

You know, if you're responding to an imminent threat, which Jason Crowe kept correcting me on, because there was no imminent

Ben Rhodes (13:14)

threat, because there's no imminent threat, but because there, he said when he was on the Hill that there, there it was over because of the ceasefire. So they have to make this seem different. It's interesting that he seems to care about that. That just shows you that the, the, he doesn't care about Democrats. That shows you that even Republicans are feeling humiliated, as they should by the absence of any congressional authorization. The second thing is, I cannot possibly overstate how insulting their tone towards the rest of the world is. You've done a very good job week after week at detailing these massive shortages that are crippling the economies of countries around the world, leading to severe shortages, making life hell for like probably untold millions of people around the world. And so for him to kind of marmoly say, you know, like some trader who just did a line of coke in the bathroom before he wanders out to the floor, you know, well, you guys, you know, we, we don't need this as bad as you do. And you better come in here like, like, what is that for? Like, who, who is that for? Like, who is the audience for that? Because if it's the quote unquote friends and allies he's talking about, they have no friends anymore. They lost them. And that's not going to make them want to step up, you know.

Tommy Vietor (14:30)

Right.

Ben Rhodes (14:31)

And then the last thing is they just fundamentally, because they did such piss poor planning about this whole thing and didn't even anticipate that they closed the Strait of Hormuz. They don't, they don't even understand that the problem is not that there's a lack of guidance for the ships, it's that their minds in the Strait of Hormuz, that the Iranians are firing at tankers, that, that there's a fear factor that no amount of guidance is going to solve. And similarly, if the United States Navy, which is the strongest in the world, can't reopen the Strait, which it has not, no matter what they say, they don't control the strait. If they control the strait, all the ships would get out. It's not like some pickup team of other countries can do it either. So it's just this kind of weird mix of defense and offensive political messaging with no strategy attached to it.

Tommy Vietor (15:18)

Yeah, and there are, there's 20, nearly 23,000 sailors on 1500 or more vessels that are just trapped in the Gulf, like trying to get out. I mean that, that is, that's what's at stake right now. And Rubio also did a briefing at the White House today. They did this full court press. There was this bizarre event this morning where Trump was bringing back like the National Fitness Award. Remember that thing we did as kids?

Ben Rhodes (15:40)

Noah Syndergaard, ex Met Pitcher was there. It was always sad to see. It's always sad when the athletes you like turn out to be maga.

Tommy Vietor (15:47)

Some shredded MAGA guy. Yeah, he was there. But Trump's like talking about like blowing up Iranians in front of all these children. So there was that. Then Hegseth and Cain did their briefing. And then Rubio went to the White House briefing room today and was just like a pig in shit, like, so happy to be there, so excited about what he thinks is his future job. But anyway, Rubio said the blockade is costing Iran $500 million a day. And Trump did this interview with his staffer Hugh Hewitt on his radio show earlier this week about, like, oil and gas infrastructure in Iran and said, and they say that in two weeks, you know, when they talk about time in two weeks, they're going to have a natural explosion of their oil that's going to make it impossible for them to really recover from. So Trump seems to think that if the blockade goes on, it will permanently blow up the Iranian oil and gas infrastructure, and maybe that's his plan to bring them to the table. But again, the Iranians are, like, they're not even willing to negotiate about nuclear issues right now. They're. Their offer is a ceasefire from the US And Israel. So also in Lebanon, they want sanctions relief, they want other financial benefits, and then they're willing to talk about the nuclear issues once the war is basically over. And then Trump won't even specify what a, a ceasefire violation would look like. And, like, I don't know if you watch the Kane and Hegseth briefing, but the reporters in that room are such a joke. They were literally asking about whether Iran is using, like, mind carrying dolphins to attack ships or like, kamikaze dolphins. So that's where we're at in terms of the reporting on this.

Ben Rhodes (17:15)

Yeah. I think, first of all, they have no plan. And they. Because when you go to war not knowing why you're going to war, other than the Bibi Netanyahu convince you to do it, you don't even really know what you're trying to get in the negotiation. And then they're trying to spin their way out of this, but the reality doesn't allow them to spin it. My only observation, I add to this, and it's. It deals with the military. You know, we always have to do a lot. You know, this is kind of throat clearing about how great the military is. And it is like, the people in it, you know, a lot of them are wonderful people. Dan Cain has been really disappointing to me. I mean, I, I texted you, I watched that. He's not as bad as Hexath. So you're watching and you're like, oh, this guy seems better than Hegseth, but he's gilding the lily.

Tommy Vietor (17:58)

You know, he's more factual in nature,

Ben Rhodes (18:00)

but, yeah, it's more Factual in nature, there's some tether to the truth. But he gives you kind of a blizzard of very tactical details that add up to no strategy. But by standing there next to Hegseth and trying to make the military operation seem, like, remarkably competent, he's kind of putting, you know, he's putting lipstick on this pig. And what worries me is that Trump, you know, look, it's always hard to play the game of what does Trump actually believe? Because everything out of his mouth about this war is a lie or a half truth or. But I do think that they're briefing him like, the blockade's going great. Great, sir. You know.

Tommy Vietor (18:40)

Yeah, I do, too.

Ben Rhodes (18:42)

This blockade is. Never in the history of blockades has there been a blockade like this blockade. And Iran is losing $500 million a day, sir. And the. The oil, you know, things will blow up in two weeks, which I think they said that two weeks ago, by the way.

Tommy Vietor (18:54)

That's what I think, quite literally.

Ben Rhodes (18:56)

And I think that they're doing a grave disservice to the country in the world if they're doing that. And I don't know that for a fact, but it seems like that because Trump, like, just likes to be told how well everything's going, and then he goes out and he repeats it in a dumber version and he amps it up. But I can kind of feel that happening here. And look, just because you can, like, position ships somewhere doesn't mean you have a good strategy, doesn't mean that what you're doing is working. And good military advice is going to the President, United States, and saying, this is not working. We cannot solve this problem militarily, like. And that does. I worry that's not happening.

Tommy Vietor (19:33)

Yeah. I mean, the Pentagon press corps is like, do you have suicide bomber dolphins swimming around the Strait of Hormones? What are we doing here? Okay, Ben. As has become our tradition, immediately after we wrapped the show, Donald Trump sent a tweet that actually, I don't know the implications of this one.

Ben Rhodes (19:49)

Well, the wars ended, like, several times right after we.

Tommy Vietor (19:51)

Yeah, we've had a million ceasefires. Everything's better. So here's what he truthed on Truth Social, based on the request of Pakistan and other countries, the tremendous military success that we've had, tremendous campaign against our country of Iran, and additionally the fact that great progress has been made toward a complete and final agreement with representatives of Iran. We've mutually agreed that while the blockade will remain in full force and effect, Project Freedom, the movement of ships through the Strait of Horus will be paused for a short period of time to see whether or not the agreement can be finalized and signed from President Donald J. Trump. I have no clue what that means.

Ben Rhodes (20:30)

I mean, it means we won, Tommy.

Tommy Vietor (20:32)

I think it sort of means maybe that this whole plan wasn't working for all the reasons we just discussed and were skeptical of. And now they're going to pretend that they're close to signing some sort of real agreement to reopen the Street.

Ben Rhodes (20:46)

Yeah, I mean, not to be cynical.

Tommy Vietor (20:49)

Yeah, I'm coming from a cynical perspective.

Ben Rhodes (20:50)

But perhaps Project Freedom did not succeed in lowering the oil prices as he might have wanted. And so now we're trying a different tack because all he really cares about is the markets.

Tommy Vietor (21:02)

Yeah, but he's seeming to suggest that they're close to a final agreement. To a final agreement. But as we discussed, I mean, the Iranian position was like full ceasefire in Iran and Lebanon.

Ben Rhodes (21:14)

There's an agreement for him to have that involves sanctions relief, Iran, you know, getting a lot in return for little. And so at some point one of these will be true.

Tommy Vietor (21:25)

Right.

Ben Rhodes (21:25)

And there'll be a deal in which the IRGC is still in charge of Iran and they get a bunch of money from either sanctions relief or tolling the straight or unfrozen assets in return for some pretty cosmetic nuclear concessions or maybe some medium sized ones like the jcpoa. And maybe this will be the time, or maybe this is just another effort to try to lower gas prices, but I don't know. Tommy, would you put Project Freedom up there with Operation Overlord, the Normandy invasion?

Tommy Vietor (21:58)

Yeah, it's up there.

Ben Rhodes (21:59)

It's just a remarkable success for Secretary Hegseth and one of the greatest blockades of the Department of War, one of the greatest 24 hour GPS navigation operations ever launched.

Tommy Vietor (22:09)

Here's your map. Operation Freedom. Okay, well, we wanted to hop on and just tell you guys that this true social post was sent. The story of this war is Trump just kicking the can down the road for every 24 hour news cycle and market moving events just to kind of keep the stock market on sides.

Ben Rhodes (22:27)

Yeah, I wonder what trades we'll learn took place right before.

Tommy Vietor (22:29)

Yeah, I'm sure Don Jr. Has a bunch of futures at bay, but okay, we're gonna go back to the regular show and we're gonna talk about the big picture issues, the nuclear stuff, the things that really matter. But another truth social post, diplomacy by social media going great.

Ben Rhodes (22:42)

Well, I just, I just glad our freedom has been defended like this.

Tommy Vietor (22:46)

Yeah. Thank you, sir. Pod Save the world is brought to you by Acorns. There are a million reasons why people talk themselves out of investing. It can feel like they don't have enough money to do it. They don't know enough information. Maybe they don't know how. But so many it can feel complicated. It can feel complicated, but so many of us only focus on where our money is today. Acorns is the financial wellness app that cares about where your money is going tomorrow. Acorns is a smart way to give your money a chance to grow. Acorns is easy. You can sign up in minutes and start automatically investing your spare money. Even if all you've got is spare change. Acorns grows with you whether you're just starting out or you're thinking about settling down. Acorns supports your big and small goals across every life stage. The Acorns potential screen shows you the power of compounding and how your money could grow over time. Plus, you can quickly adjust how much you're investing every day, week or month to make sure you're building towards your goals. Acorns is all in one. No more finance apps cluttering up your phone. With Acorns, you can invest, save and give your money a chance to grow in one trusted place. Sign up now and Acorns will boost your new account with a $5 bonus. Investment join the over 14 million all time customers who have already saved and invested over $27 billion with Acorns. Head to acorns.com world or download the Acorns app to get started. Paid non client endorsement compensation provides incentive to positively promote acorns. Tier 2 compensation provided potential subjects to various factors such as a customer's accounts, age and investment settings. Does not include Acorns fees. Results do not predict or represent the performance of any Acorns portfolio investment Results will vary. Investing involves risk. Acorns Advisors LLC and SEC registered investment advisor. View important disclosures@acorns.com World Pod Save the World is brought to you by Aura Frames. Aura Frames is a great way to mix things up from the standard Mother's Day playbook. Look, flowers are nice. I don't Other things are nice. Doing something nice is great, but an Aura Frame is a great gift. It always die or a frame lasts forever. There you go. Aurora Frames will never ever break. I don't know if I can say that legally, but it's a really great gift. I got my mom one. It was a huge hit. If you got a new pet, if you have a new baby, if you've been on a trip. You can update the pictures all the time. It's just a really cool idea. You get free unlimited storage. You can add as many photos as videos as you want. Preload photos before it ships. You can keep adding them from anywhere, anytime. You can personalize your gift with a message before it arrives. There's a gift box included. Every frame comes packaged in a premium gift box with no price tag. You can share your photos and videos effortlessly. You can download the free Aura app or text photos straight to your frame. It was rated number one in the App Store on Christmas Day in 2025, so it's a top rated app. Make Mother's Day special with Aura Frames named number one by Wirecutter. You can save on the gifts moms love by visiting auraframes.com for a limited time. Listeners can get $25 off their bestselling Carver Mat frame with the Code world. That's a frames.com promo. Code world. Support the show by mentioning us at checkout. Terms and conditions apply.

Donald Trump (25:35)

Foreign.

Tommy Vietor (25:40)

So again, while the Pentagon is playing Persian golf, tour guide Trump is trying to spin this mess to the public. Here's a super cut of some of his attempts over the last couple of days and we'll watch the the spin evolve a bit.

Donald Trump (25:51)

I did something that was, I don't know, foolish, brave. But it was smart. I would do it again, but I thought the numbers would be much worse. I thought the stock market would go down much, much more. I thought the oil prices would go up much more. I said, but we have no choice. Whether it does or doesn't. I have to do what's right. We can't let them have a nuclear weapon. We hit all new highs. And I said we have to take care of business because we can't let that happen. So we did a little detour and it's working out very nicely. Our country is booming now despite the fact that we're in a, I call it a mini war. Did a poll on the war with Iran and They said only 32% of the people like it. Well, I don't like it and I don't like war at all. It's a golden age for America. You know, we hit an all time high stock market today. Despite that, we're in a little skirmish. Military. I call it a skirmish because Iran has no chance.

Tommy Vietor (26:43)

So to summarize, it's a mini war or a skirmish. The polls are fake but the stock market is up, so who cares? So more importantly, Ben, there was a report from Reuters on the impact of Epic fury. The most recent round of fighting on Iran's nuclear program. Reuters reported that US Intelligence believes that the time Iran would need to build a nuclear weapon has not changed since last summer, when analysts determined that the previous strikes, Operation Midnight Hammer, had set them back, basically pushed the timeline back to a year. So in other words, like, the latest round of fighting has not set Iran's nuclear timeline back any further. Before the war in June, US Intelligence said Iran was three to six months away from having enough highly enriched uranium to build a nuke. After the 12 day war, they said it was nine to 12 months away. Now they're still about a year away. So it's not clear that this has done anything on the nuclear front. Of course, we've taken out the US And Israel, have taken out a lot of conventional military capacity, killed a lot of Iran's leaders, but that's not what this was supposed to be about. So, I mean, Ben, again, we're not having nuclear talks that we know of the US And Iran, but the stated positions remain very far apart. Again, earlier this week, Trump talked to neocon fanboy Hugh Hewitt. He told him he wanted all of Iran's highly enriched uranium out of the country. Country. Iran refuses to do that. Trump has said repeatedly that Iran can't do any nuclear enrichment. Iran repeatedly has asserted its right to enrich. Trump wants to cap their missile program. He wants to end their support for proxies. Seems unlikely that the IRGC is going to be down with that. So again, I'm trying to figure out an end game, a path forward, some like common ground in these talks. But I'm just, I'm struggling to see it.

Ben Rhodes (28:17)

I think that the, the fundamental problem here is we had this debate back in 2015 when the Iran nuclear deal went into effect. And having looked at the problem for years and having gotten the same presentation or a version of it that Netanyahu gave Trump to bomb Iran, when we looked at that, and we also looked at what was possible at the negotiating table, you know, what became very clear is, number one, you cannot destroy a nuclear program by bombing it. You just can't. They know how to do this. They know how to do the nuclear fuel cycle. They have uranium, they have the capacity to build centrifuges that can enrich that uranium. They have the capacity to stockpile it. You can bomb buildings where that takes place, but, you know, they can move it around, they can go underground. They've got lots of different scientists. You cannot bomb that out of existence. You could invade the country and fully occupy it and hunt down every last scientist and, you know, piece of the program. But we're obviously not going to do that either. So therefore, you can only resolve this issue diplomatically. If you resolve it diplomatically, there is absolutely no way that the Iranian government will ever agree that they do not have the capacity to enrich uranium, that they're going to abandon that in perpetuity. They're just not going to do that. Like we'd like that to happen. They're not going to do that. And so therefore, all you can do is negotiate some restrictions on their program where they're shipping the nuclear material that they produce out of the country, they're operating less centrifuges, and there are inspections. That's the Iran nuclear deal. That's the jcpoa. The only thing available to Trump as an off ramp to this war, potentially, because I don't know if the Iranians are even in the mood to do it, is basically the deal that Obama had that he tore up and agreeing to that would reveal the absolute fucking insanity of not just Trump, but the entire Iran war industrial complex, all the Lindsey Grahams, obviously, the Israelis, obviously the hack shit posters online who work at think tanks that had no purpose for existing other than to cheerlead for a war with Iran. Those people cannot admit that they were wrong. And the only way out of this war is for them to, if not admit that they're wrong, tacitly admit they're wrong by essentially trying to pursue a version of what Obama's nuclear deal was. I mean, honestly, I think that's where it is. And Trump, they try all these other metrics, like we blew up some of their conventional military, we killed these leaders. And everybody can see with their own eyes that the IRGC took our best punch and is still standing, that they control the Strait of Hormuz, and that they actually have more enriched uranium in a stockpile than they had the day Trump pulled out of that nuclear deal. And what was this all for? Not just this war, this whole last decade, what was it for? The insanity of it is just apparent. And Trump doesn't understand these things. But I think the core point here is absent something like that this war, literally there's, accomplished precisely nothing and at unbelievable cost.

Tommy Vietor (31:41)

Yeah. According to US Intelligence, it's just nothing different.

Ben Rhodes (31:44)

It's just shit. Because the ballistic missiles, they'll rebuild the

Tommy Vietor (31:48)

ballistic missiles, they'll find a way to do it. They'll produce the ballistic missiles or new drone technology.

Ben Rhodes (31:51)

So this is completely insane that this happens.

Tommy Vietor (31:55)

And by the way, that event with the kids. Trump talked about the power of nuclear weapons. He talked about killing Iranians. He did his whole riff about, like trans athletes. And then he said to them, barack Hussein Obama, have you heard of him? Again, to a bunch of kids. Do you think that set of remarks is going to wind up in your forthcoming book about great speeches?

Ben Rhodes (32:13)

I will say, having spent four years writing a book to try to tell the history of the United States through 15 consequential speeches, that's got to make it in there, including speeches I don't agree with. You know, the Vice President, Confederacy's in there, Reagan's in there. The degree to which the bar has lowered here in Trump. I will say to people, though, book is out three weeks from today. Okay, so now we're in that sweet preorder window.

Tommy Vietor (32:37)

Buy that sucker.

Ben Rhodes (32:38)

If you are planning to buy the book, buying it now helps a lot because if you get some pre orders, they ship more books at the bookstores and it all works out better.

Tommy Vietor (32:47)

Get them on that list. Where do they go? Just go to the Amazon.

Ben Rhodes (32:50)

Hit the list. But the reason that's.

Tommy Vietor (32:52)

Wait, wait. Give them a way to buy it.

Ben Rhodes (32:54)

I mean, you can go to Amazon, you go to Bookshop. Oh, I refine my plug. Always say the battle for American identity. And actually don't go to Amazon. Go to bookshop because of the Met Gala. Go to Bookshop that supports independent bookstores. And then I'm hitting the road. I'll be on a book tour. I'm going to be going to like, I don't know, 15 places. So we'll make that available. I will have to say to the San Francisco World, OS2 in particular, though, because tickets are on sale now. I'll be at City Arts and lectures on June 9th with Jelani Cobb. I'm excited about that event. I know we got some San Francisco

Tommy Vietor (33:26)

listeners, got a lot of SF listeners. Great city. Okay, so the politics of this are becoming quite clear. I mean, it's a political disaster for Trump. Washington Post had a poll out over the weekend. Some numbers for you, Ben. You tell me if these are good. Overall approval rating for Trump is 37%. Approval of handling of Iran is 33%. 66%. Disapprove approval on inflation is 27%. Obviously that's getting worse every day because of oil and gas prices. Cost of living, 23% approval, 61% think going to war with Iran was a mistake. 65% aren't confident that will prevent Iran from getting a nuke. 22% think that Trump's actions against Iran are consistent with his promises in the 2024 election. So, I mean, look, all these numbers suggest that they want to run screaming from this thing. I think it was the Wall Street Journal reported that Trump keeps like kind of toggling between wanting to severely punish Iran for not doing what he said, but also worrying about getting pulled deeper into the conflict. I think anyone who's gotten in one of these regime change wars over the last couple decades could have told him that military action was not going to drive political change in Iran. But here we are. Good luck getting yourself out of this one, big guy.

Ben Rhodes (34:36)

He can't get out of it because you can't change prices. You can change how people are feeling and what they're seeing. I think the other thing from all these clips that stands out to me is that there's a convergence of the extent to which he's out of touch that I think is important. And you're seeing some people on the maga, right, pick up on this, including people like Tucker Carlson, which is that he now is pivoting to the stock market. You know, well, you know, the war's. We had to do this detour. It used to be an excursion, now it's a detour. But the stock market's at an all time high. I think actually that is the precisely wrong message because people are beginning to get, you know, wise to the fact that the stock market is completely fucking juiced by an AI bubble.

Tommy Vietor (35:21)

Oh, yeah.

Ben Rhodes (35:22)

And so basically Trump is up there boasting about the fact that, that a very small number of people are making a bunch of money on an AI bubble, creating technologies that are going to come for your jobs while he's fighting a war that does nothing for you and makes your gas prices higher. And it's going to start to affect things like fertilizer and all these other things that people really depend upon in this country. And so in a way, the war itself, you know, it's pulled back the curtain that the emperor has no clothes, he has no idea what he's doing, he's broken his promises, he never probably believe them in the first place. But also even his way to spin himself out of it is compounding the error. Because telling people that they shouldn't be upset about high gas prices or a war or the affordability is a myth.

Tommy Vietor (36:10)

Yeah, made up a hoax for Democrats.

Ben Rhodes (36:13)

If your only play is to point to the stock market, that would only make me more pissed.

Tommy Vietor (36:19)

Oh, absolutely. Especially you barely own stocks. I mean, most rich People and sucks. Speaking of, we've also been trying to figure out what's going on in Iran Ban. I mean, our, our producers have been trying really hard to get in touch with people on the ground. Obviously that's very hard. There's an Internet blackout, there's all these threats in the regime. But just to give you a sense of what kind of conditions people are living under. So one contact we did get in touch with through an intermediary received this text afterward. This is verbatim. Dear Citizen, following a review of actions carried out in cyberspace and pursuant to articles of the Islamic Penal Code and your act of approving and publishing criminal content in cyberspace is currently under investigation by the cyber police. Obviously that person didn't want to talk further. We were finally able to connect with another civilian in Iran, a teacher. We decided not to play the audio of that message because we just didn't want to create any risk for this person. We wanted to share some of what was said. They said their ability to teach has been severely disrupted by the ongoing blackout on Internet access. They said even with the expensive VPN services, Internet access is limited and unstable and that people have to spend a large part of their income just to stay connected. There's a type of government provided Internet, often referred to the national restricted Internet, that gives you some basic access, but it comes with control and monitoring and all sorts of restrictions. And because of that, people don't feel comfortable using it. And overall, just getting online is no longer simple. It's expensive, it's unstable, and it comes with a bunch of trade offs between access, quality and privacy. Privacy. And then they said on terms of fear of the government, quote, we do not have freedom, we do not have freedom of expression. Even basic forms of dissent can lead to serious, serious consequences. People could be detained or face severe accusations. In my own experience, I have received threatening messages simply for liking a few posts on Instagram. It's not normal that a simple action like liking a post on Instagram can lead to intimidation and make you feel like your own safety could be at risk. So Trump occasionally now will mention the protesters killed earlier this year. He did some weird thing today where he said that 40,000 people were killed by five snipers, which doesn't make a lot of sense, but it's worth noting that he's almost exclusively made their lives worse and deepen the repression that they face from the regime.

Ben Rhodes (38:25)

Yeah, and I talked to someone I know here, a friend of mine whose family's Iranian, and they were describing the Securitus way they have to get news. They can't really be in touch. They hear secondhand. Somebody hears from somebody, hears from somebody. They're okay, but it's just hellish. I'm just going to say something to kind of introduce a new idea here, Tommy, which is

Donald Trump (38:50)

in.

Ben Rhodes (38:51)

The regime has nothing to do with the irgc, the Iranian regime, and how repressive they are. We have a deeply fucked up foreign policy because of how routinely we ignore the human cost of all the things that we do around the world. And this war is case in point. The girls school we bombed in the first day is case in point. The other thing I would say, though, is that, you know, somebody asked me recently, well, what do you regret about the Iran deal? You know, and usually that's like, they want me to say, like, this sunset clauses should have been 12 years instead of 10 or something. I actually regret when I. When I think. And if I were to make a recommendation for what Trump should do, not that he'd listen to me. Let's lift the sanctions on Iran. And I know whatever intern listens to this podcast over. Yeah, maybe not everything. Not the sanctions on the IRGC or whatever, but, like, is this helping them? We've been sanctioning the shit out of this country for 20 years. That teacher's life is far more miserable because of it, and she's getting repressed more because of our sanctions. Our sanctions empower the Iranian Revolutionary Guard Corps. Do not listen any longer to these hawks who tell you that the way that you care about human rights is by sanctioning countries and cutting off basic goods and collapsing currencies. You know what if you lift.

Tommy Vietor (40:15)

It worked in Cuba.

Ben Rhodes (40:16)

Yeah. If you lifted sanctions, like, and, you know, try to get something. Try to get the nuclear program. Do bigger sanctions relief.

Tommy Vietor (40:24)

Yeah, yeah.

Ben Rhodes (40:25)

Because I'm seriously trying to.

Tommy Vietor (40:26)

So incremental and limited.

Ben Rhodes (40:27)

Because you know what? That teacher and all these people in Iran might still be dealing with an intolerable amount of repression, but their lives would be better. And if we think that sanctioning this country or sanctioning this regime is somehow changing it, it has entrenched the worst people in Iran deeper in power. And so this is a bigger conversation we can have going forward. But one idea for Democrats looking for new ideas is. And by the way, because sanctions are hurting people, they're also going to shoot us in the face because the Chinese are going around the world saying, this is why you got to get off the dollar as the world's reserve currency. And so what are we doing here? We're acting against human interest and we're acting against America's long term interests by pursuing these insane sanctions policies on Iran, on Cuba and all these countries that things just get worse in those countries.

Tommy Vietor (41:15)

Yeah. By the way, Trump's going to China next week on the May 14th and 15th. Think Iran's foreign minister is there this week to get ahead of that visit. Listeners probably remember that this China trip was supposed to happen in late March, early April, but Trump delayed it to deal with the Iran war. I'm sure this conversation you were just talking about, about how the Chinese can help Iran and other countries get around US Sanctions is front and center in that conversation. But despite the delay, I mean, Trump was like, oh look, we have to delay this trip because then the war will be over and then we could focus on the real things. Like no, the, the Iran war has totally overtaken the trip. Trump kind of tried to low key it today. Talk about how nice China has been to him during the war, how they haven't challenged us. But Treasury Secretary Scott Besson had a slightly different take earlier this week on I think he was on Fox News or Fox Business. Let's watch. Let's see if you know China. Let's, let's see them step up with some diplomacy and get the Iranians to open the street.

Ben Rhodes (42:13)

Said that twice.

Tommy Vietor (42:14)

Now, do you expect Beijing and President Xi to do something with regard to Iran? Again, all I always say is Iran is the largest state sponsor of terrorism and China has been buying 90% of their energy. So they are funding the largest state sponsor of terrorism. That's quite a broadside in advance of Trump's trip. Not quite on message there, Scotty.

Ben Rhodes (42:36)

So first of all, Trump says we control the straits, right? So why does China have to open it?

Tommy Vietor (42:42)

I don't know.

Ben Rhodes (42:43)

I mean, first of all, there's a cognitive dissonance and second of all, these guys talk like it's, I don't know, 1992 or something like China did. You think China gives two shits what Scott Bessant says? Like he can order around Xi Jinping. I mean, we're just living in there's a reality in the world and then there's like the Trump reality. And increasingly people aren't even trying to kind of play along with it like they were at the beginning when they were a little afraid of tariffs and things like that. Look, Trump is intimidated by Xi Jinping. You can tell. You know, he's always doesn't want to piss him off. He's afraid he got his ass handed to him in a trade war and now he's created a huge problem for the Chinese and everybody else because they have supply lines and energy needs that run into Iran. But just hectoring them, I mean, if they were doing smart diplomacy, it's kind of like what I say just so we can be constructive here. Look, a smart diplomatic effort would be like, look, we fucked up. Let's try to solve this problem comprehensively. You work on the Iranians to kind of open up the strait. We will lift some of these sanctions so that you can buy the oil more easily. And in return, though, you got to get this stockpile of the nuclear material out and you got to convince them to have the IE in. This is what diplomacy would be like and they're incapable of doing.

Tommy Vietor (44:02)

But instead, what's happening is the Wall Street Journal reported that China's Commerce Ministry told companies just not to comply with U.S. sanctions over the purchase of Iranian oil. They're actively telling their companies to ignore us. There have been reports that China may be selling Iran weapons or other dual use materials.

Ben Rhodes (44:16)

I'm sure they are.

Tommy Vietor (44:17)

And like, in the, like, Aldi Baez, who's an Iran expert who we've talked to on the show a bunch of times, said he's seeing people affiliated with the IRGC saying that Iran has been way too shy about aligning itself with China and Russia. So that's, you know, likely to come. Remember, the Chinese facilitated this opening between Iran and Saudi Arabia in 2023. They're also getting very active with Pakistan on the diplomatic efforts to try to end this war currently. So the Chinese are like, attempting to fill the void in some way. And it's just again, like, if this war wasn't happening, I'm sure the agenda would be trade deal, Taiwan, artificial intelligence, like all these big things.

Ben Rhodes (44:54)

Yeah.

Tommy Vietor (44:55)

Instead it's just going to be.

Ben Rhodes (44:56)

Yeah. And the Chinese, by the way, you know, they see us like confirming all the arguments they've been making around the world forever, that the Americans are reckless, that they can't be trusted, that they overuse sanctions, that they're militaristic. Like Trump is proving every Chinese argument that has been made in two months. And so they're going to reap a lot of geopolitical gains from this. Although they also have, like, economic concerns about, you know, the potential global recession that this war could bring about. Interestingly, they have a stockpile of oil that they can ride out for, I think, something like six months or maybe nine months. They do have LNG issues. And so the Qatar cutoff of LNG because that gas field is shut down because the Iranians bombed it is a problem for them, but it's a problem with the solution, which is in the long term, they're going to want to pull Qatar and some of those Gulf states into their orbit. And I would be shocked if that's not. One of the consequences of this war is that the Gulf states that usually looked in the direction of the US Are going to be much more open to look. The Chinese deal is reliable. The terms are, you know, Beijing favored, but we know what the terms are.

Tommy Vietor (46:06)

Yeah.

Ben Rhodes (46:06)

Whereas the Americans, we have no idea what the fuck they're going to do day to day.

Tommy Vietor (46:09)

Right, Exactly. So the other front in this, in this war is in Lebanon, and that fighting is just raging between the Israelis and Hezbollah. The Lebanese health ministry said 17 people have been killed since Sunday and over 2,600 since the conflict started. Hezbollah said it carried out over a dozen attacks on Israeli soldiers on Monday. And Ben, I don't know about you, I, I'm on, on social media, seeing more and more videos of these FPV drone attacks by Hezbollah on like Israeli tanks and stuff. They're basically taking all the technology we saw in Ukraine with like fiber optic drones that can evade electronic warfare defenses and using those in southern Lebanon. It's a pretty devastating effect. The, the New York Times did like a, a pretty big deep dive on satellite imagery from southern Lebanon. They found, quote, widespread demolitions have flattened expanses of at least two dozen towns and villages near the border with damage to government offices as well as civilian infrastructure, including schools, hospitals and mosques. Israel's Defense Minister, Israel Katz, explicitly said this pattern of destruction is following the Gaza models, basically. And Trump is pushing for talks and ceasefire plans, but neither side seems particularly interested at this point. So not a ton to say new about Lebanon right now, except for it's like incredibly grim and just kind of steady state. Like, I don't know, they're calling it a ceasefire, but it's just an ongoing.

Ben Rhodes (47:27)

It's insane that they call it a ceasefire and it's insane that Western outlets like, you know, talk about fragile ceasefires and things like this. The other thing that. Did you see Smotrich, you know, the finance minister.

Tommy Vietor (47:39)

Yes.

Ben Rhodes (47:39)

Say that, you know, he promised his son that he wouldn't destroy all of Lebanon so that his son and his generation could. I mean, this is really psycho stuff. And, and look, we, when I remember they started carpet bombing southern Lebanon. If you posted like, which I did, you know they're going to do the Gaza model in Lebanon. People would be like, oh, you Israel hater. Like, how dare you, you know, and, and now they, the Israeli government says we're going to do in southern Lebanon what we did in Gaza, make it uninhabitable. Because what they're doing, just so people understand is they're literally making it. They're not just destroying these villages, they're so comprehensively destroying, you know, the, the, the farmland, the olive trees that there'll be nothing to move back to. That's what we mean by Gaza model. It's not just that they're leveling every building. It's that it's, there's gonna be nowhere for those people to go back.

Tommy Vietor (48:33)

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That's squarespace.com world Speaking of Gaza, we should touch base on all things Gaza because, you know, last October everybody celebrated the ceasefire deal brokered by the administration. But unfortunately it's really been a ceasefire in name only for people who live in Gaza and life in Gaza is hell on earth. So some numbers for you guys. The Palestinian Health Ministry says that since the ceasefire between Israel and Hamas, 823 people have been killed and 2,300 have been wounded. Four Israeli soldiers have been killed since the ceasefire began. Only 250 of the promised 600 trucks of aid per day are getting into Gaza. Partly that was the result of the one of the two crossing crossings being closed for a long time due to the Iran war. The UN Office for the Coordination of Humanitarian affairs estimates that rodents are swarming 80% of the camps for displaced people, and the World Health Organization reports that there have been over 110,000 cases of disease or infestation due to external parasites. Ben I was texting with Faroz Sidwa earlier this week. He was for listeners. He was this heroic doctor who came on the show after he had volunteered in Gaza during the conflict. And he said that like the the society and the health infrastructure in Gaza is just so thoroughly destroyed that rat attacks on infants are now a major source of morbidity. So kids are getting sick and dying because they're getting attacked by rats. Just imagine your baby getting attacked by rats. The only power comes from generators, there's no grid left and the reconstruction cost is estimated at 70 billion and a third of that is needed upfront in the first year and a half just to do basic infrastructure and essential services. So basically, the long story short is the place is in this nightmarish limbo. Hamas is not disarmed. They refuse to disarm until Israel withdraws and Trump promises them a Palestinian state. Israel is occupying pretty much, you know, half the Gaza Strip. It refuses to let in items that are essential for reconstruction. All the people trapped by the Trump administration, this, like, group of, you know, experts and technocrats sitting on their ass. Yeah, they're sitting in Egypt at a resort doing nothing. Some of them want to be doing more, but there's just no funding. There's no way to do anything. The civil police force that they kept talking about, none of them have been trained. And it's just. It was so obvious then at the time, and even clearer now that Trump and Jared Kushner and Steve Witkoff, they only gave a shit about getting the Israeli hostages out. And once that happened, they were like, you know, job's done. They don't care about people in Gaza. And, you know, the Israelis and Hamas both seem kind of fine with the status quo because it keeps them in charge for Israel, it deals with their kind of security concerns, and the Palestinian people just suffer immensely in the meantime. So that's the latest. I mean, it just sort of couldn't really be worse.

Ben Rhodes (53:37)

Yeah, I think. I mean, a couple of things I point out here. First of all, the ceasefire violations that tend to get highlighted are the attacks, the bombing of Gaza and the killing of civilians with violence. But another piece of this is that Israel has just fundamentally refused to let in the aid that it promised to do under the terms of the ceasefire. And so the reason the conditions are so squalid, the reason that life continues to just be just hell on earth for civilians, there is, at least in part, in large part, that, look, if Israel wanted to let assistance in, you wouldn't have infants getting attacked by rats, you wouldn't have people suffering malnutrition, you wouldn't have preventable deaths. Like, this is a genocidal policy that is continuing. And just because they're not bombing at the same pace that they were before, it doesn't mean that they're just not squeezing and squeezing and squeezing with complete disregard to the loss of civilian life. And the second thing, like I'd say, is when you look back, there's just something ghoulish about the celebration of that agreement. And we were calibrated at the time, but this is like the Worst case scenario in a lot of ways. I mean, I guess it could be worse. They could just start bombing indiscriminately at the pace that they were before. But nothing, not a finger is being lifted to help these people.

Tommy Vietor (55:06)

And there's still drone strikes.

Ben Rhodes (55:08)

Yeah. I'm sure that if you're a Palestinian, all you hear is the buzzing of drones overhead. The fear that. That engenders in children is unimaginable to me. And. And it just shows you that Trump and Netanyahu, they wanted the hostages out and they kind of just wanted it to be downgraded. On every assignment, editor's desk, around the world, like, the media, it's off the television screens. A little less social media attention on it, and we can all move on.

Tommy Vietor (55:35)

We'll pretend we both pull together. This border peace, Gaza reconstruction effort. In fact, nothing will come of that. But Jared Kushner will get to hit up the Saudis on the margins for his investment funds. And Steve Witkoff can talk to the Pakistanis about buying hotels in New York and the crypto deal he made with the Trump family. Crypto business. Right. The president of Indonesia, as we talked about last week, can ask for Eric or Don Junior's cell phone number to figure out the golf course deal back home that he's using to grease Trump. Right. It's just like it's grift on the side.

Ben Rhodes (56:06)

Yeah. And that's the last thing I was going to say is, like, the Jared Kushner presentation at Davos that we spent some time on with this kind of Jetsons Dubai data centers. Yeah, data centers and high rises. How about tents and commercial real estate? And it was grotesque at the time, but again, to be constructive, why let him make that presentation at Dala? Like, stop humoring these people. There's a kind of deference. Jared's here. We have to sit attentively while he gives us the Jetsons version of Gaza. Like, it's time for people to start saying no to these people, to start calling bullshit on these people, to stop. I mean, if you're the Saudis or Emirates or whomever is, like, invested in Jared, how you feel about that investment now with the war in Iran fucking up your economy? Like, you don't need to pay this guy. Like, there's not a requirement that you pay him. Like, I know that, you know, you're doing it to get Trump off your back, but is it working?

Tommy Vietor (57:04)

No. No, it's not. And it is not working diplomatically either. I mean, the next topic for us is Russia And Ukraine, another conflict Trump said he's going to solve in 24 hours. That Jared Kushner and Wyckoff are on the case. They've gotten literally nothing done. So later this week then, the Russians are going to hold their annual Victory Day commemoration that celebrates the defeat of Nazi Germany in World War II. It usually entails this huge military parade of tanks and other weapons, but this year Putin is not going to be displaying, deploying kind of major military hardware. It could be because, you know, drone strikes could reach that hardware and hit the parade. It could be because I think Zelensky was speculating that the Russian military just doesn't have enough kit to show off this year, so they're not going to try. Putin proposed a ceasefire for the day of the parade itself. That's obviously a bit cynical and self serving. In response, Zelensky proposed a long term ceasefire and like a lasting peace deal. Don't hold your breath on that getting done. But the casualty estimates are just staggering. So there's a CSIS report from January from like five months ago that estimated Russia had 1.2 million casualties from the start of the war through the end of 2025. Ukraine's casualty estimate was about half of that, but again, that was five months ago. And every week advances in drone technology make life at the front lines more deadly and hellish. So I'm sure the numbers have increased. Ukraine has been able to hit target targets deeper into Russia than ever before. And there's been some really interesting reporting about dissent in Russia and security issues in Russia itself. So in mid April, there was this blogger named Victoria Banya. She posted this 8 minute, 18 minute Instagram video outlining a bunch of concerns and anger problems in Russia itself. And she directed it at Putin and it went super viral. So the Guardian said it got 26 million views in four days, which is surprising since Instagram is technically banned in Russia, as is criticism of Putin, really. But Banya, she complained about flooding, oil pollution along the Black Sea, this massive cull of livestock in Siberia, which really angered people. Internet restrictions and the government was forced to respond in a real way because she was seen as actually a defender of Putin. Then there was this fascinating report in the Financial Times about how Putin is increasingly paranoid and worried about getting killed or assassinated. They say he's spending more time in bunkers underground. Security around him is tighter. People aren't allowed to have phones or Internet connected devices near him. Some of his staff had security systems installed in their own homes, which that sucks. The piece also said Putin is almost entirely focused on the war and foreign affairs and just kind of lets domestic stuff languish. So, Ben, I think, you know, we wanted to raise this because it's been a while. I don't, I personally like feel guilty. Every week we don't talk about Ukraine more because the stakes are just as high, the death toll is just as horrific. But over time there's always just like a new nightmare that we're covering, like Gaza or Iran. But also there's kind of like an undertone in these reports that maybe Putin is losing his grip on Russian society. The polling is going down, we're sitting in L. A. I have no idea how strong or weak Putin's grip on power is, but I don't know, maybe it's wishcasting, but maybe there is a sense that the Russian economy can't just sustain this level of fighting casualties for this long. But I don't know. What do you make of these reports?

Ben Rhodes (60:09)

I think they're really interesting and we should just say, I mean for the Ukrainians, it sucks. They're just this grinding front line and this casualty levels is just beyond the immediate human toll. How that country gets out of this situation and is viable in terms of rebuilding gets harder with each passing month or year. On the Putin piece, you know, he's never as weak as the wish casting sometimes suggests.

Tommy Vietor (60:41)

Right.

Ben Rhodes (60:41)

So back in, you know, 2023 when I was like, oh, Putin's going to fall and the Ukrainians are counter offensive is going to be victory and they're going to take back Crimea, like that was serious wishcasting. But at the same time, a lot of the issues in this war are ones that are going to get worse with time for Putin. So for instance, like people from the front like going, I mean, if you look at the Soviet war like in Afghanistan, it took years for that war to start to eat away at like Russian society because guys are coming home, they're disabled, alcoholism rates are going up. Like it's, you know, ptsd. People are, you know, like the, literally the workforce is being. So if you look at Russia today, for instance, like, yes, they've been able to create a war economy that can employ people and artificially, you know, boost growth rates and they can manipulate oil prices. They benefit from the war because the price of oil goes up. So they get a little more revenue. But at the end of the day, they're spending extraordinary money on this. They're losing an extraordinary amount of people. The people that are coming out of this war and going home are probably not. Okay, so towns, small cities are starting to probably feel it takes two, three, four, five years. That's how long this war has been, by the way. The Ukrainian strategy of striking these targets deep into Russia is pretty smart because it's bringing the war home to certain places. It may actually be causing, you know, demonstrable damage.

Tommy Vietor (62:18)

And they're hitting energy infrastructure.

Ben Rhodes (62:19)

Yeah.

Tommy Vietor (62:20)

Sources of revenue.

Ben Rhodes (62:21)

And the repression. You know, like, we make a mistake sometimes of. It's like, maybe we should know because now we live in a version of authoritarianism that, like, it's a spectrum. So just because Putin's always been repressive doesn't mean it can't get worse. And it's clearly gotten worse. I mean, alone is pointing out to us repeatedly that, like, these Internet restrictions, like, that fucks up people's lives. People want to be online, people want to be in touch with their family, people want to be in touch with. So many Russians are out of the country, and they can't be in touch with their family. Businesses rely on the Internet. So I do think that they're. They're. You know, Putin is not as strong as some people project or as weak, but there, these cracks are starting to show, and it might take time, but at a certain point, the bill is going to come due for this war.

Tommy Vietor (63:05)

Yeah. And there's been some interesting reporting about Putin, like, trying to urge. Erase even Soviet history. You know, it doesn't strike me as a particularly. I mean, it's an authoritarian move. It's not the strongest move. There's also been a bunch of reporting about Russian entities, these, like, kind of fake businesses that get set up, recruiting men from Africa and telling them they can come work at some private security job and sending these Kenyan men to the front lines just to be cannon fodder. I mean, it's horrible stuff. Also, though, just back on the negotiating fronts, I mean, I think the last trilateral talks were in. In February, and I saw. I think I read somewhere that Wyckoff and Jared Kushner, they've been to Russia a bunch of times. Right. They'll meet with Putin whenever they can. I don't think they've ever been to Ukraine. And the question is, why you wouldn't go one time to meet with the people, to see the place, to understand the issues.

Ben Rhodes (63:52)

So, first of all, two things noticeably, that meeting was before the war in Iran. So another casualty of this war is that there's just no attention on Ukraine. I don't have inside information. I had to do all the caveats that we don't know for sure. They want to do real estate deals or mineral deals in Russia. That's why they're there. They don't care if a shit about the Ukrainians. They see a bonanza on the back end of this war being solved. Jared and Witkoff, I think, wanted to do deals in Russia. Why might I surmise that one, the guy that Putin started sending to the talks is the head of the sovereign wealth fund?

Tommy Vietor (64:28)

Yeah, that's a big signal.

Ben Rhodes (64:29)

He's not from the Foreign Ministry, he's from the sovereign wealth fund. Two in Alaska, he's in Miami, like

Tommy Vietor (64:34)

jet skiing with them all the time.

Ben Rhodes (64:35)

Yeah. Dicking around. Two in Alaska. Putin brought all these people from like these various. We're going to do mineral deals and all this stuff. They clearly want to skip ahead to that step. The problem is that the wars get end first and three, to your point, why would you not go to the country that's been invaded? You know, Jared and Wyckoff's interest in this, I think had nothing to do with peace and have anything to do with making a buck in Russia. And that's fucking disgusting. Yes.

Tommy Vietor (64:57)

Yes, it is. And there's a great piece, I think, in the New York Times Magazine this week about kind of the privatization of diplomacy and the way that those two are fusing profit. For example, the Pakistanis did this big crypto deal with the Trump family company, and now what do you know, they're

Ben Rhodes (65:12)

hosting the, you know, talks like you

Tommy Vietor (65:14)

and I have laughed on the show about how Trump is always shouting out, like, the Field Marshal General in Pakistan is probably like a human rights violator. And it's like, well, probably. We know what?

Ben Rhodes (65:22)

Pretty safe bet.

Tommy Vietor (65:23)

Yeah, pretty safe bet.

Ben Rhodes (65:24)

And calling him by his honorific, Field Marshal, you know, it's. Except Field Marshal.

Tommy Vietor (65:28)

Field Marshal Eisenhower, like, give me a break. Okay, so final topic. This one comes courtesy of Michael and our team. So enjoy. Ben, it's a quiz for you. Pop quiz.

Ben Rhodes (65:40)

Oh, no, this is not like a Tim Miller pop quiz.

Tommy Vietor (65:42)

No, no, no, no. First of all, who was. Do you know who our current ambassador to both Switzerland and Liechtenstein is?

Ben Rhodes (65:50)

I have no idea. But if I'm going to guess, like, is it a Kushner or Woodcoff relative?

Tommy Vietor (65:55)

Let's roll the tape.

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I'm Callista, United States Ambassador to Switzerland and Liechtenstein, and I'm delighted to celebrate national apprenticeship week. As U.S. ambassador to Switzerland and Liechtenstein, I've seen firsthand the power of apprenticeships.

Tommy Vietor (66:13)

Wow. Amazing story.

Ben Rhodes (66:15)

I just have one comment first. I know there's maybe the years or decades could go by, and Callista Gingrich would look exactly, precisely the same.

Tommy Vietor (66:24)

Brother, that face, whatever they shot into

Ben Rhodes (66:26)

that face, we will be dead, you and I. And there will be a video of her in some Republican administration in 2075 as ambassador to Luxembourg or some fancy European place looking exactly the same.

Tommy Vietor (66:42)

Yeah, she facetunes with a belt sander. By the way, that was Calista Gingrich, former ambassador to the Vatican under Trump 1.0, wife of former Speaker Newt Gingrich. So Calista is now representing our interest in Bern. Remember, she is Newt's third wife. So he met his first wife when he was a teenager. I didn't know this when she was his high school geometry teacher. It's very kind of grown esque.

Ben Rhodes (67:03)

Yeah, get Candace on that case. Was she a Rothschild?

Tommy Vietor (67:08)

We'll find out. That marriage ended in divorce after his affair with Marianne, who became his second wife. This is Newtown. Newt then had an affair with Calista for six years while he was still married, and he asked his second wife for a divorce shortly after she was diagnosed with Ms. So, again, good guy. Calista, I think, is 23 years younger than Newt, about the same age as his daughter. And again, we cannot point out enough that Newt was having this affair while constantly attacking Bill Clinton over the Lewinsky stuff. So Newt married Calista in2020, converted to her faith, Catholicism, in 2009. So, Ben, to honor her, where does

Ben Rhodes (67:47)

Catholicism stand on these personal discussions?

Tommy Vietor (67:50)

Yeah, on this. Yeah. A little quiz for you. Okay. One first question. Like Kash Patel, Calista Gingrich is a noted children's book author. In her seven book series, what animal quote travels through time to discover the pivotal moments that have shaped American history? Is it A, Ellis the elephant, B, Newt the narwhal, C, Donald the Dalmatian, D, Liberty the lynx.

Ben Rhodes (68:16)

This is. This is actually just as good as Cash the Wizard. What was A again?

Tommy Vietor (68:21)

Ellis the elephant.

Ben Rhodes (68:22)

I'm gonna go with the elephant. I'm gonna go with the elephant.

Tommy Vietor (68:25)

You nailed it.

Ben Rhodes (68:25)

Yeah.

Tommy Vietor (68:26)

You absolutely nailed it.

Ben Rhodes (68:27)

I think of all the things to choose, these are actually Republicans. Before they were Donald.

Tommy Vietor (68:32)

I'm bummed it wasn't Newt the Narwhal. So the books are apparently written in rhymes. Like, after winning the war, Washington would not become a king. He became our first president. And that's a better thing.

Ben Rhodes (68:42)

Could we please get a dramatic reading of these books by Pete Hegseth?

Tommy Vietor (68:45)

Oh, that's a good idea.

Ben Rhodes (68:46)

With a American flag.

Tommy Vietor (68:47)

It is very fitting. You're right. Question two. Newt Gingrich owed as much as $500,000 to which retailer in the mid-2000s, was it A, Vineyard Vines? B, Tiffany Co. C, Radio Shack, D, Rolex.

Ben Rhodes (69:03)

500,500. Because I, I would say Newt has a, a taste for the Vineyard Vines, but I'm gonna go Rolex.

Tommy Vietor (69:10)

Yeah. So it was B, Tiffany.

Ben Rhodes (69:13)

Tiffany. Okay. Hard to spend 500 grand.

Tommy Vietor (69:16)

Very, very hard. That's a lot.

Ben Rhodes (69:18)

That's a lot of white shirts.

Tommy Vietor (69:20)

Yeah. We got a clip of this. Apparently. I've even seen this.

Donald Trump (69:22)

Doesn't that whole thing strike you as stupid? I mean, if you. These are stores. These are stores that have a wide range of. Of things you can buy. She has girlfriends with birthdays.

Tommy Vietor (69:33)

What is that him defending himself in 2000.

Ben Rhodes (69:36)

It's a quick swerve here. Like, the fact that this guy was held up as like some intellectual. I know has always bothered me. Like, the bar for these Republicans is so low.

Tommy Vietor (69:47)

Yeah, yeah. This is our moral leader in our

Ben Rhodes (69:50)

moral and intellectual giant.

Tommy Vietor (69:51)

So this Tiffany thing came up in his ill fated presidential campaign and 2012 for the nomination. He also got flacked for suspending his campaign to go on a Greek cruise.

Ben Rhodes (69:59)

Do you remember? He was like the front runner.

Tommy Vietor (70:01)

Yeah.

Ben Rhodes (70:01)

I mean, that was a crazy field. I was like, Romney. Rick Santorum had a moment there.

Tommy Vietor (70:07)

Thinking back, I can see why Trump mopped the fucking floor with these guys. Because he came in, he was like, I have a personality and a sense of humor and I'm not a loser like these idiots. Last question. When leaving a second wife, Marianne. Newt compared Marianne to Calista, saying, I can't handle a insert luxury consumer good right here, right now. All I want is a less expensive good. You got the formatting here. So I can't handle this luxury thing. I need a less expensive thing. Was it I can't handle a Charmin Ultra Soft right now. All I want is a Scott one ply. Was it B? I can't handle a gray Poupon right now. All I want is Frenches. Was it C. I can't handle espresso right now. All I want is instant. Was it D? I can't handle a Jaguar. All I want is a Chevrolet.

Ben Rhodes (70:51)

One of those is actually true.

Tommy Vietor (70:53)

Yep.

Ben Rhodes (70:55)

I mean, I guess I'm gonna go D. Because anyone else is like, dude,

Tommy Vietor (70:59)

you crushed this quiz. D. Yeah. Chevrolet.

Ben Rhodes (71:02)

Yeah, yeah. I mean, he wanted a Chevy.

Tommy Vietor (71:04)

That's a bad thing to say to a human being. I mean, that you're marrying.

Ben Rhodes (71:08)

I mean, Newt's been In plenty of back seats over the years. I mean like, so is Calista. Well, I

Tommy Vietor (71:18)

backseat windows up this. Yep. That was a great quiz. Thank you, Michael, for that. So what happens when you give this guy an hour of free time on a show day? All of a sudden we're doing now.

Ben Rhodes (71:30)

That was good. It was a pretty like dark, angry, you know, run. So we needed that.

Tommy Vietor (71:35)

It's important to have a little fun at the end here. Okay, we're gonna take a quick break.

Ben Rhodes (71:39)

By the way, isn't that better than the Tim Miller when he's like, you know, asking you the name of the foreign minister of Liechtenstein?

Tommy Vietor (71:44)

Yeah. Tim thinks there's people who seem to think that working foreign policy meant you worked in geography.

Ben Rhodes (71:50)

No, it's funny. The reason he does it is because George Bush like got asked the name of the head leader, Pakistan, as Musharraf and Tim thought that that was like a dumb liberal gotcha thing. But actually like, I'm not sure that was a dumb question because Pakistan ended up being like the most important country after 9, 11.

Tommy Vietor (72:07)

So yeah, look, I think ask him, but I think people running for president asking them basic civics question is a good idea. Like I think, you know, if you ask Donald Trump like how many branches of government are they? Like he would just flunk a lot of these basic questions and it would have been useful along the way. But yeah, Tim likes to just torture us when we go on the show. Yeah, he does. We're gonna take a break. We come back here and hear my conversation with Jason Crow about Iran, about his grilling of Pete Hegseth about Trump moving troops out of Germany. So stick around for that. Pod. Save the World is brought to you by SimpliSafe. Most traditional security systems on the market lock you into a long term multi year contracts with huge cancellation fees. Simplisafe is different. They earn your trust by providing 24, 7 effective professional monitoring that's actually affordable. And they do it without roping you into long term contracts. As you guys know, John Levitt sent up a Simplisafe system all by himself. All by himself. Easy to do. What a big boy. Top of the line sensors, you turn it on and off from your phone. Kept him safe, kept pundit safe, kept everyone his life safe. That's why they called simply safe Simplisafe. It's more than just a security camera. It's a lifestyle. It's a comprehensive system of sensors and indoor outdoor cameras that protect you against intruders, fires, floods, annoying people. Your system is a fully customizable system to fit your exact needs. It's fast and easy to set up on your own. No drilling is required. No waiting around for a technician to show up. The app guided installation walks you through the process. You can get your system armed in less than an hour. It was like, wait, no drilling. No drilling. That's promised drilling. SimpliSafe is backed by 247 professional monitoring agents who dispatch emergency help when you need it. Over 5 million people value and trust SimpliSafe with their home security every day. Right now, our listeners will get 50% off a new system when you sign up for professional monitoring. And your first month is free by visiting SimpliSafe CrookedWorld. That's half off. It's simplisafe.com crookedworld there's no safe like SimpliSafe.

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Tommy Vietor (75:10)

My guest today represents Colorado's 6th congressional district and he serves on the House Armed Services Committee, the House Permanent Select Committee on Intelligence, and many other august committees. Jason Crow, Great to see you again, Tommy.

Jason Crow (75:22)

Thanks for having me back.

Tommy Vietor (75:24)

So the the War Powers Resolution, the the law establishes this 60 day deadline after which a president has to stop the use of armed forces in a conflict or else get congressional approval. Trump's war with Iran hit that 60 day deadline last week, last Friday. But the Defense secretary, Pete Hegseth, he argued in a Senate hearing that because of the ceasefire, the clock stopped. The, you know, 60 days is not up and they don't need Congress to act. We should all just note that since that spin, the US And Iran have been shooting at each other in the Strait of Hormuz with the US Sinking A number of Iranian boats earlier this week with helicopters, I believe. What did you make of Hegseth's claim?

Jason Crow (76:05)

Well, can we actually just. There's an important step missing here. The 60 day clock is determined on the War Powers act, which is determined on there being imminent threat.

Tommy Vietor (76:18)

Right.

Jason Crow (76:18)

There has to be an imminent threat. And then under an imminent threat, then they have 60 days and then there's an additional 30 days to conduct the troop withdrawal beyond the 60 days, but they never showed the imminent threat.

Tommy Vietor (76:30)

Right.

Jason Crow (76:31)

So all this do about much to do about the 60 day thing. We never met the initial threshold. Right. Which requires there either be. There's only two ways a president can take our troops to war. One is if there's an imminent threat, in which case they have the 60 days, which they never showed, or there's an AUMF by Congress. Neither of those things are true. So this whole thing from the beginning has been unlawful and without authorization, but more importantly without actually the consent of the American people, which is really what this is all about.

Tommy Vietor (77:02)

So you're right about that context. I think it's important. But I guess associated with that, wouldn't this new military operation, this guide mission for boats in the Strait of Hormuz, Project Freedom, would that also require congressional authorization?

Ben Rhodes (77:17)

Yeah, it would.

Jason Crow (77:18)

Well, there are so many things going on here. One is the initial attack on Iran, which required imminent threat or a congressional AUMF of some sort of. The second is an ongoing naval blockade. I mean international law and the law of war is very, very clear. A naval blockade and stopping ships from coming in and out of ports is a very clear act of war.

Tommy Vietor (77:43)

Right.

Jason Crow (77:43)

And then you add on top of it, Hegseth's claim that somehow a ceasefire tolls this 60 days. There's zero precedent for that assertion, not to mention the fact that there actually is conflict going on right now. In the last 24 hours, there have been numerous exchanges of fire between the United States and Iranian forces or proxy forces. So the whole thing is a mess. It's convoluted. They keep on evolving and changing their definitions, their legal basis for it, which of course is just par for the course of this administration. Much like the operations going on in the Caribbean which use circular legal reasoning to justify. They always say that there isn't an armed conflict. It falls just short of an armed conflict level. But they have to use the military because it is an international armed conflict. So they want to have their cake and eat it too.

Tommy Vietor (78:33)

So what does Congress do about it? That's the big question. Here. Like, how can you guys exert some pressure on the administration to change course, to follow the law, to follow the Constitution, whatever?

Jason Crow (78:44)

Yeah, but Congress has the power. This is less the story of Donald Trump or any president for that matter. Matter. And I'm always really clear that this isn't just something that Donald Trump has abused. This has been abused by. By multiple presidents. Democrat and Republican in multiple Congresses have allowed it, Democrat and Republican. This is a 20 year problem in the making. And Congress tomorrow could fix it. We have the authority, constitutional authority, and we can walk in to the House floor. We could take a vote and take that power back tomorrow. Right. So that's what this is about. This is about Congress giving up its power and ceding its constitutional authority. But more importantly, it's constitutional duty. This is more about duty than it is about authority. It's our job, for God's sakes, to actually take these votes and to be held accountable and to appropriate the money or not appropriate the money for all of these things. Because the framers knew that presidents will take all the power they're given and use all the power they're given. That the accountability loop is in members of Congress that have to go home to their districts every weekend, every week and stand up in front of their constituents and be held accountable for it. So that's ultimately the fix, and this should be. The most bipartisan thing in America right now is Congress, because it's been abused by both sides over the years and because Americans of all stripes, Democrat, Republican and Independent, want it over. They want no part in this, and they want it to be ended.

Tommy Vietor (80:17)

The other sort of way you guys can get some accountability or oversight is through hearings. There were some hearings last week. You had this extended exchange with Pete Hegseth about a guy named Tim Parlatori, who is Pete Hegseth's private attorney. He was then appointed to a Pentagon job. You pressed Pistol Pete on Parlatori security clearance. You asked him about his foreign clients. He's still in private law practice. Can you explain why you were so focused on this one individual and what you learned in that exchange and like, how we act on it?

Jason Crow (80:47)

Yeah. My singular goal right now is to get Pete Hegseth fired. Right. He is such an extreme danger to our service members. The men and women who I love, who I've served with, who I have a deep affection that come from my district, come from districts around this country, people's sons and daughters, brothers and sisters, mothers and fathers. And he is putting these folks at such extreme risk because of his. Not just his incompetence, but his cavalier attitude and his unwillingness to actually do the right thing and to run the Department of Defense the way that it needs to be run. So I want this guy gone. Which is why I chose a very different approach than I've ever chosen before. I was speaking largely to Donald Trump into the White House when I was questioning. And I was pointing out that in Pete Hegseth, you have a man who publicly professes unfaltering loyalty to the president, kisses his ring, kisses his ass every chance he gets, and yet behind the scenes, he's hiring people who Donald Trump despises, who Donald Trump has called a lawyer who was fired from his legal team, and basically building a fiefdom with these Hegseth loyalists. And at the same time, the corruption, just the extreme corruption of Pete Hegseth putting all these people in place who are making money off of their positions very, very purposefully and intentionally so. That's what I was drawing attention to.

Tommy Vietor (82:17)

There's also been. There's been some reporting that Hegseth is increasingly isolated, that he's paranoid about getting fired, that he brings his wife to official meetings, that his closest advisors are this little circle like Tim Parlatore, Pete Hexa's brother, this guy Ricky Beria, who is like a military aide under Biden who stayed on. He's sort of, I think, risen to much higher heights. And that Hegseth is preoccupied with stuff like the Pentagon's chaplain services and not managing the massive workforce. I mean, are you hearing similar things from contacts you talk to within the Department of Defense?

Jason Crow (82:51)

Yeah, absolutely. I'm hearing a variety of different things. One, one strand of things I'm hearing is about the culture of fear and intimidation and retribution, that if you're a senior military officer, you can't give your honest advice to the civilian leadership. You have to show loyalty. How dangerous is that? We're conducting military operations in dozens of places around the world, and our senior military officers don't feel empowered to say if there's something wrong or to dissent. I mean, that is so deeply dangerous. That kind of proves my earlier point. So I'm hearing that we're hearing rumors that, you know, this parlatore has to be hired by senior officers to get promoted, that, you know, they have to basically pay this guy, which is, you know, part of my questioning. So we need to drill down into that.

Tommy Vietor (83:39)

So if I want to go from a two star general to a three star, I have to hire this random lawyer to get a promotion.

Jason Crow (83:46)

To do what? Yeah, that's what we're hearing. And that's why I questioned Hegseth about proletarium. Those are the rumors that we're hearing from a lot of different places. And what's crazy is that that wouldn't actually surprise me if it were true. I mean, that's part and parcel to this administration. It's happening administration wide in so many different ways. This pay to play politics. And it's seeped into. Well, actually, seeping isn't the wrong word because that's passive. It's been implemented.

Tommy Vietor (84:16)

Yeah.

Jason Crow (84:16)

Injected by Tegseth and the people around

Tommy Vietor (84:20)

him to put it in terms Pete might understand. He shotgunned it. So it's down the hatch.

Jason Crow (84:25)

He would understand that.

Tommy Vietor (84:26)

He would understand that. Yeah. I bet he funneled it. The administration said the cost of Operation Epic Fury, the war with Iran, is $25 billion. I've seen news outlets estimate that it's much higher. I think CNN said 40 to 50. CBS said closer to 50 billion. What do you think? Did you buy that $25 billion number?

Ben Rhodes (84:45)

Yeah.

Jason Crow (84:45)

There's no way that's true. There's. There's no. Well, first of all, even if that's true, that's a lot of fricking money.

Tommy Vietor (84:50)

Yeah.

Jason Crow (84:51)

Right.

Ben Rhodes (84:51)

We have.

Jason Crow (84:52)

We have, you know, people losing health care by the millions. You know, I was just in a roundtable yesterday with some young folks in my district and. And it was all about health care. They're, they're like, you know, my health care has gone up. They're now paying $2,000 a month for premiums with a $6,000 deductible and a 20% copay. Right. And they're like, you can't afford that. Right. So Even if it's $25 billion, which it's not, right. It's a multiple of that two times, three times, maybe four times. It's much higher than that. That is a lot of money. Right. We have expended vast, vast amounts of our most exquisite high end munitions in our stockpiles. There's been tremendous damage done to our infrastructure throughout the Middle East. Let's not forget that a lot of these drones, a lot of these missiles actually have hit infrastructure, defense infrastructure in our bases that's going to be rebuilt. So it's cost a lot of money, and it continues to cost a lot of money. This blockade is not cheap either. So that's kind of the biggest point here. Not only is our service members at great risk, and we've lost 13 of them over 300 have been wounded. But Americans are paying tens of billions of dollars for a war that's going to end poorly yet again without achieving a strategic goal. And they're fed up with it, and they should be.

Tommy Vietor (86:05)

And, like, obviously they're trying to claim that this new guiding operation through the Straight or Hormuz is actually a separate thing with a different name. But it's obviously, you know, it's all just part and parcel of the Iran war. How would you designate the cost of that to the war effort? I mean, I think they said, like, a bunch of guided missile destroyers are going to stay in the region. Over 100 air assets, 15,000 troops. Presumably that is an enormous cost, like keeping all those individuals in theater. That would continue to add up every day. Right?

Jason Crow (86:37)

Yeah. This is a kind of smoke and mirrors budgeting tactic that they have been using where they say it's really not costing us extra. And their rationale is it goes something like this, that, hey, we have these ships anyhow, and, hey, they have to be somewhere doing something anyway. And we're paying these service members every month anyway. So let's just take all those normal, it's called O and M, funding operations and maintenance, and we'll just move that money over into this contingency operation, this planning, and we'll call it a wash. It doesn't work that way. Actually doing this comes at some cost. So instead of training, instead of being back with their families, instead of that, maintenance has to be done, instead of the modernization that has to be done, instead of all the multilateral training exercises that we would normally be doing with our allies in other places in the world, we're doing this. There's an opportunity cost to it. And our point is, tell us what that is costing and is costing extra, because like I said earlier, if you're shooting off munitions in a stockpile and if you're taking damage, that actually is a fixed capital cost. So I'm kind of done. And frankly, we did this under Iraq and Afghanistan, too, for decades. They did the same thing other administrations. I think that the O and M, and they count it as part of the contingency. So I've been battling that for a long time now. And Americans and taxpayers deserve to know what these operations are really costing and how much more it's costing. So that's what we're trying to drill down on.

Tommy Vietor (88:15)

Yeah, seems like the bare minimum information they should owe us. Finally, President Trump is planning to pull 5,000 troops out of Germany. This is in response to criticism of the War in Iran from Chancellor Mertz, the leader of Germany. What do you think the impact of that move is or will be? And are you concerned about it?

Jason Crow (88:33)

Yeah, I am concerned about it, and I'm not presumptively against troop movements. Right. A commander in chief should have flexibility to move troops around, to respond to needs, to respond to crises. That is kind of part of the authorization that a commander in chief inherently has. When it becomes our business is when the commander in chief is doing it out of an emotional meltdown or to enact some kind of retribution or vengeance on a political opponent or a foreign leader because he's upset, then it becomes my business. Right, right. Because he's abusing our military and their families that need to have some sense for how to live their life. He's using. He's using taxpayer dollars to do that. Right. So that is the important distinction. The reason why becomes important because if it becomes a reason that's not acceptable and not in a normal course of being the commander in chief, then it's Congress's job to say, okay, this is a problem and we're not going to use taxpayer dollars to do it. We're not going to mess around with our military and our military family's time and money. And we also have to make sure it's in the best interest of our national security, because there is the largest land war in Europe happening right now between Russia and Ukraine. And having a troop presence there is really important to make sure that we're sending the right message against Putin, that we are affirming our commitment to NATO. So that's why we're trying to invoke a legal provision that we actually put into the defense bill on a bipartisan basis last year that says you can't move troops beyond a threshold level unless you have met certain criteria to do so.

Tommy Vietor (90:18)

And so in this case, we're talking about Trump trying to move troops from Germany because of specific comments, but he's also threatened to punish NATO in other ways, like pull troops or even bases out of Spain because they won't participate in the war. Is he any close to actually taking those steps? Because, you know, my understanding is we don't have troops in Spain just for the hell of it. It's because, you know, that geography provides some important, you know, capability to United States military. I mean, I remember talking about basing and troops and airplanes and air assets in Spain and Italy a lot of during the Benghazi attacks and the follow up from that, because that would have been sort of the closest team to get to that site on September 11th and actually try to rescue those individuals. So just move. It's not like you can just move them around like chess pieces. You can't just move a bunch of troops from Spain to Eastern Europe and not have an impact on your ability to fight wars. But is that even being discussed with Congress or is this stuff going to happen?

Jason Crow (91:19)

Yeah, well, it's not being discussed with Congress in the way that it should. I mean, this administration is violating a bunch of laws or potentially violating a bunch of laws in the case of the troop levels, like, for example, like they, they haven't provided. There's, there's a statutory provision in the defense bill that says they have to provide what's called an X or an execution order, which is the order that starts contingency operations. They have to legally provide every X ord to the Armed Services Committee. And they have it. Right. For a year. Right. So they're violating that. But the troop movement thing is an important point. I had an exchange with one of the senior deputy defense secretaries a couple of months ago where he was trying to justify the movement of troops out of Europe. And what they said was, we're going to take troops out of Europe and we're going to move them back to the United States so that we can train more, we can actually train better. And I'm like, well, let me understand this. You're going to actually take troops away from the places where we actually have training grounds, some of the best training grounds in the world in Europe, where they actually train with our allies because they're co located with them, where we can conduct exercises and we train moving troops around Europe because movement of forces on rail lines, on highways, and learning how to do that throughout Europe is essential. You're going to take them away from there, going to move them back to the United States and then to actually train them, we're going to temporarily ship them back there and actually do the same training that they normally do. But now we're going to have to move them back to Europe and incur that additional cost. And he's like, yeah, that's our plan. So the whole thing makes no sense. It's more expensive, it's less efficient, it's actually worse training and all being footed by the American taxpayer. And the commonality to all of this, all because of Donald Trump wanting to send a message and he's pissed at NATO or certain leaders. I mean, that is the reason behind so much of what's going on.

Tommy Vietor (93:20)

Well, that seems very stupid. Well, look, Congressman Crow, thank you very much for joining the show today and trying to hold these goobers accountable. And if you learn more about whatever Tim Parlatori is doing or. Or Tagseth or anybody else, please come back and fill us in, because it's a bit of a mystery over here, and we'd love to get more information.

Jason Crow (93:35)

Yeah. Thanks for having me back.

Tommy Vietor (93:41)

Thanks again to Congressman Crowe for doing the show. And prepare our own quiz for Tim Miller next weekend.

Ben Rhodes (93:46)

Yeah. Yeah.

Tommy Vietor (93:47)

Talk to you soon. Pod Save the World is a crooked media production. Our show is produced by Alona Minkowski, Michael Goldsmith, and Anisha Bonerjee. Our team includes Matt de Groat, Ben Hethcoat, Jordan Cantor, Kenny Moffat, David Tolles, and Ryan Young. Her staff is proudly unionized with the Writers Guild of America.