← Pod Save the World
Pod Save the World
Call of Duty: Dumbass Group Chat
01:40:18
Tommy and Ben discuss the fallout from Trump's national security team accidentally sending top secret war plans to a journalist, Turkey's backsliding democracy as a result of Erdoğan arresting his top political opponent, and Bibi Netanyahu's continuing efforts to remove internal critics while Israel gears up for potential annexation of Gaza. They also discuss a violent settler attack on the Oscar winning co-director of No Other Land, Russia's maximalist terms for the new maritime ceasefire with Ukraine, the conflicts in Sudan and Congo, and the Trump administration's latest immigration moves, including revoking temporary protected status for over 500,000 people. Then, Tommy is joined by Jeremy Shapiro, Research Director at the European Council of Foreign Relations, for a tour of Europe, including Turkey's political unrest, Romania's fraught election, and the latest with Hungarian strongman Viktor Orbán.
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- [00:00]
Tommy Vitor
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- [01:21]
Ben Rhodes
Big tech dominating our headlines.
- [01:22]
Tommy Vitor
Another win for Donald Trump Inflation report. These are short audio reports 5 minutes or less that bring you the latest headlines with context 24 hours a day. Stay on top of the latest news from around the world. Get it on your smartphone. Subscribe to Bloomberg News now on Apple Podcasts, Spotify or anywhere else you listen. Welcome back to Pod Save the world. I'm Tod Evitor.
- [01:57]
Jeremy Shapiro
I'm Ben Rhodes.
- [01:58]
Tommy Vitor
Good to see you my friend. You look like you're in a. A nice but new location.
- [02:02]
Jeremy Shapiro
I'm in a non secure undisclosed location on spring break. Getting a little skiing.
- [02:09]
Tommy Vitor
It's not a skiff. Yeah, doing a little.
- [02:11]
Jeremy Shapiro
Oh yeah. Everything's been on signal out here from the mountain. I could. I could launch airstrikes against the Houthis from the gondola.
- [02:19]
Tommy Vitor
Apparently you could. Apparently that's not how they do things over at the White House. But we will. We're going to get into all of this, as Ben is alluding, the first topic today is going to be the national security group chat heard round the world and what it means for the Houthi rebels and operational security in the United States and I don't know, just the clown show of people running our government. We will talk about Turkey, President Erdogan's democratic backsliding and crackdown on the opposition when I cover all the news about the various people Israeli Prime Minister Bibi Netanyahu is trying to fire in Israel. We'll talk about fighting in Gaza, the latest on peace talks between Russia and Ukraine, conflicts in Sudan and Congo, some immigration news and a speed round of updates. And Ben, a lot of this conversation today will be guided by one man, a man named Steve Witkoff. He did hour and a half long interview with Tucker Carlson where he talked about a whole range of stuff. So throughout the interview we're going to be clipping from that because it was, it was illuminating. It was troubling, but illuminating.
- [03:22]
Jeremy Shapiro
Well, you mean Secretary Witkoff, the boss of Deputy Assistant Secretary of State Marco Rubio. So let's be very, very clear about that.
- [03:30]
Tommy Vitor
Let's be clear about his status in the world. You're also going to hear my conversation with Jeremy Shapiro, who is the research director at the European Council on Foreign Relations. And we basically just hopped around all of Europe, Ben. We talked about the opposition in Turkey and what he makes of them. The latest about Romania's elections. We talked about your boy Viktor Orban, Germany's major investment in its defense industry, Europe's efforts to wean itself off of American weapons, and what he makes of Italian Prime Minister Giorgio Maloney. So very fun conversation. We covered a lot of ground pretty quickly.
- [04:03]
Jeremy Shapiro
We could have a POD Save Europe, Tommy. Just saying.
- [04:06]
Tommy Vitor
I think we could. And by the way, if you want more about UK politics, do not miss our conversation with Pod Save the UK host and comedian Nish Kumar. We recorded this last Friday. We dug into all things British politics, talked about the King's playlist, his comedy tour and whether jokes are allowed in the Trump era. So it's exclusively on YouTube. And for those wondering like, hey, why are you dickheads only putting stuff on YouTube? It's because you may have seen that Republicans are killing Democrats on YouTube in particular. And that is very bad and consequential because Most people use YouTube as a search engine and when they're looking for things, if there's some massive right wing page and you know, the, all the crooked media accounts are small and less likely to get surfaced by the algorithm that's going to harm everybody. So we're trying to build up our YouTube. So please subscribe. It would really mean a lot to us. We're going to try to put out interesting, exclusive stuff for you, make it worth your while. But YouTube's free, so, you know, you don't have to.
- [05:07]
Jeremy Shapiro
I know. And the more you subscribe on YouTube, the more incentivized we will be to do extra content there.
- [05:14]
Tommy Vitor
That's right. That's right. It makes it seem exciting and fun if people are actually watching. So check out the niche conversation that guy is. I, like, did multiple spit, takes some really hard jokes. You don't know when you're on this show that are worth your time. Okay. Speaking of fun, Ben, we have to cover a lot of dark shit on this show, so today we're starting with the fun stuff. On Monday, the Atlantic's Editor in chief, Jeffrey Goldberg, someone we know very well and is just him being involved in the story, is so perfect and hilarious. But Jeff dropped this blockbuster story on us. Somehow, Mike Waltz, Trump's national security adviser, looped Jeffrey Goldberg in on a group chat on Signal. For those who don't know, Signal is an encrypted communications app that is widely used by government people, reporters, activists, you know, anyone who's concerned about security because it's open source and it's largely viewed as being the most secure. The group that Jeff got added to was called Houthi PC Small group, the Houthis. Even the name is so funny. The Houthis are referring to the Houthi rebels, an extremist group based in Yemen that the US has been bombing for years because they were firing missiles and drones at ships in the Red Sea. PC stands for Principles Committee, which is a meeting hosted by the National Security Advisor that includes the literally, the top national security officials in the US Government. The head of the FBI, for example, the Secretary of Defense, the National Security Advisor, the Secretary of State. And small group is what you call a White House situation room meeting when the subject is sensitive and you want to limit the number of people involved and disinvite some people that you find annoying. So Jeff gets looped onto this group chat, and all of a sudden he's just seeing messages From Mike Waltz, J.D. vance, Assistant Deputy Assistant Secretary Marco Rubio, actual Secretary of State Steve Witkoff, Secretary of Defense Pete Hegseth. Some undercover CIA officer is on this thread, and they are literally talking about whether or not the should bomb the Houthi rebels in Yemen. They're making a policy decision. Here's Jeff Goldberg describing for Jen Psaki what was discussed on this group chat. This, because this comes after they made the policy decision and they were talking about execution of this bombing raid, the specific time of a future attack, specific.
- [07:28]
Jeremy Shapiro
Targets, including human targets meant to be.
- [07:33]
Tommy Vitor
Killed in that attack, weapons systems, even weather reports, you know, that the government is.
- [07:41]
Jeremy Shapiro
I don't know why Hexap was sharing it with everybody.
- [07:43]
Tommy Vitor
I mean the precise detail and then.
- [07:47]
Ben Rhodes
A long section on sequencing.
- [07:50]
Tommy Vitor
This is going to happen, then that is going to happen. After that happens, this happens, then that.
- [07:54]
Ben Rhodes
Happens, and then we go and find.
- [07:56]
Tommy Vitor
Out if it worked.
- [07:57]
Ben Rhodes
I mean, you know, he can say.
- [08:00]
Tommy Vitor
That it wasn't a war plan, but it was a, it was a minute by minute accounting of what was about to happen. Sounds pretty classified to me, Ben, for what it's worth, and it's not worth much. Here's Pete Hegseth denying the allegations and blaming it all on Jeff Goldberg during a brief press availability in Hawaii.
- [08:24]
Jeremy Shapiro
So I. You're talking about a deceitful and highly discredited so called journalist who's made a profession of peddling hoaxes time and time again to include the, I don't know, the hoaxes of Russia, Russia, Russia or the fine people on both sides hoax, or suckers and losers hoax. So this is the guy that pedals in garbage. This is what he does. I've heard, I've heard I was characterized. Nobody was texting war plans. And that's all I have to say about that.
- [08:57]
Tommy Vitor
Thank you. He like literally is speaking an alternate right wing language. So Ben Trump's top intelligence officials also parroted a lot of these lines are played dumb at a congressional hearing today. Several reporters have since pointed out after Jeff Story posted that Steve Witkoff was in Moscow as he was receiving many of these signal messages. So Ben, we should just say for the record, PC meetings are always in the White House situation room because they're almost always highly classified. You can join remotely, but only via secure government video technology. There was clearly classified information discussed on this chain. Like any prospective military action is like de facto classified and pretending otherwise is nonsense. And Witkoff yucking it up from Moscow is like jaw toppingly stupid. The knives are now out for Mike Waltz, A person close to the White House told Politico, quote, everyone in the White House can agree on one thing. Mike Waltz is a fucking idiot. Ben, your reaction to this disaster?
- [09:55]
Jeremy Shapiro
I mean it's such a wide ranging disaster, it's hard to find one entry point. I was in probably hundreds of PCs and small groups and just to give people a sense of how tight the security is. When I was traveling, I remember one time, for instance, I was traveling in Oregon. I was on a family vacation and I had to join a PC. I had to drive an hour and a half to an FBI field office to be escorted in a room with a secure video connection into the situation room. And I didn't think twice about that. I mean, like, the idea that I'd just be on my phone is nuts.
- [10:32]
Tommy Vitor
Crazy.
- [10:32]
Jeremy Shapiro
So the first point is that this is not normal. Like, this is not something that anybody else has ever done. This is fucking insane. That's the first point. The second point is, you know, just adding Jeff Goldberg is one of the dumbest fucking things I've ever heard of in my life. And Mike Waltz should be fired. I mean, if there's not accountability for. Because what if the added, you know, if he's just like, searching GS, what if he added, you know, like, I don't know, it could be anybody, right? Like, he doesn't know who he added. This happened to be.
- [11:02]
Tommy Vitor
That guy wasn't an H name. If he added an actual Houthi, like.
- [11:04]
Jeremy Shapiro
A Houthi in there. I mean, you know, the thing is, like, Jeff is like a very, like inside the, you know, beltway guy. He was going to be very cautious about this. And they're attacking him. He didn't do anything other than receive their signal texts. Like. So that's the second point is like the dumb fuckery of adding Jeff Goldberg to it. Then the. The fact that. And we can get into Tom, we should get into kind of what we learned about the various characters and the role they're playing. I think that's a separate conversation. The fact.
- [11:34]
Tommy Vitor
Especially J.D. vance.
- [11:35]
Jeremy Shapiro
Yeah, exactly. But the fact that. That Pete Hegseth texted these war plans and Jeff was very specific. He had. These are what are called. So for people who wanted to come to Pots of the World for jargon strike packages, right. This would only be on high side. Email would never be on. Unclassified email. It'd be on. You had to be on a special computer to read it. And it would have things like what time we're going to hit, what military we're going to use to hit from this aircraft carrier or these cruise missiles or these planes, what targets we're hitting. It's a war plan. Whatever the fuck Pete Hegses says, it lays it all out. Why he needed to text that on signal is insane to me. I mean, just send the thing on high side email. And by the way, even if you're going to be dumb enough to be on signal, just say, like I sent the information on high side. If he actually put any of this information in the signal chat, to me, what that suggests is a degree of reckless incompetence. And that's, that's, I think why I have to keep repeating this is reckless incompetence. But even worse for Hegseth, I think it was probably him like showing off for his buddies, like, hey man, look at the strike package. Like, this is the time we're going to hit the Houthis. I also have questions. Was he drunk? I'm actually serious about this. What do we know about how did this information get on his phone? Did you think about this, Tommy? If it was on a high side email, did he have someone move it to unclassified email so he could cut and paste it? Did he take a picture of it and send it to his buddies? There are all kinds of questions about the Hegseth role in this.
- [13:07]
Tommy Vitor
Yeah, it's really interesting. As long as we're doing jargon, I wondered if they were talking about a con op, which is a military term for concept of operations, that it's like kind of like a high level planning document that outlines how a military mission is going to be executed. And again, like you said, like this is something very classified that you would get from the Joint Staff. It does sound like John Ratcliffe today at the hearing was saying that when he got to the CIA, you know, for the first day of the job, he had a signal installed on his unclassified computer. And just so folks know, I mean, when Ben and I were in the White House, we had three computers. We had an unclassified computer, and then there was a computer on the military's network, which was basically a secret level, and then there was a top secret computer. Now I have no idea what the tech and the infrastructure looks like these days. And I know that the CIA even back then had its own kind of internal mail system. So I guess you can imagine a scenario where like top leaders at the Pentagon have some kind of unclass system that has signal on it. But again, to your point, like, clearly they were transferring stuff from the classified side to this unclassified system and then sending it on signal, which is a massive. No, no. And it was, it was very funny. But do you notice how Hexath kept saying in the chat itself things like, we are currently clean on opsec, meaning operational security, as these techs are just rolling into Jeff Goldberg's laptop and into Steve Witkoff's phone over in Moscow, it's like, what are you talking about, Pete?
- [14:36]
Jeremy Shapiro
Well, that's the thing, is the US taxpayer pays a lot of money to make sure that we have encrypted communication systems. So you don't need to use signal. The only reason you signal is so that you can, like, go out and be out of the office. It's purely, you know, these are guys that just don't want to actually be at fucking work to do their jobs. To your point about, I mean, moving from the hegseth of it all, if Steve Witkoff was on this text thread from Moscow, that's mind blowing to me because.
- [15:07]
Tommy Vitor
Mind blowing.
- [15:08]
Jeremy Shapiro
If you traveled even back in the relatively peaceful Obama years to a place like Russia or China, you weren't even supposed to bring your phone. Like, we had to leave our phones on Air Force One in China. Like, because it was just. They could hack anything.
- [15:23]
Tommy Vitor
We had to leave them on the plane in France.
- [15:25]
Jeremy Shapiro
Yeah, they'd give you burner phones. Like, this is, this is like. So if Steve Wykoff carried this phone around Russia with him and was on this thread, it doesn't matter the signal encryption, they're in his phone anyway. They can see what's on his phone. They have cameras everywhere. Like, the idea that this was not compromised in Moscow is hard for me to believe. And we know that the Russians are allied with Iran. Like, it's far fetched. But they could have chosen to alert the Houthis to this. Right. In ways that could have endangered the operation, endangered our U.S. troops. I don't, you know, they clearly didn't do that. But I mean, these are the, like, the fact that this didn't run through Steve Wyckoff's head. Maybe I shouldn't be on a sensitive text thread about a military operation while I'm in Moscow. These people are so reckless and incompetent.
- [16:19]
Tommy Vitor
And by the way, like, again, you don't need DIY encryption. Like, even when we were in the, in the government, which is like more than a decade ago, the senior military leadership would join secure video conferences with the President of the United States from their airplanes. We have amazing technology. We have secure comms. You don't have to use your phone in a signal chat. And Ben, it's like the other thing that was interesting was JD Vance's view on all this, where he both suggested that Trump didn't really understand what he was doing. But also JD's opposition to bombing the Houthis was all framed as being mad at Europe, which was just bizarre to me. But I wonder what you made of that piece of it.
- [17:01]
Jeremy Shapiro
Yeah. So we learned a few things. So JD Vance trash talks Europe and says we're only doing this to help the Europeans, which I don't remember the Europeans like asking us to bomb the Houthis. It's the Israelis that actually have like been going after the Houthis. So his, you know, he tries to play smart guy like JD Vance on this signal thread. Sounds like he's auditioning for like a guest role on the all in podcast or something. You know, he doesn't know what he's talking about, but any opportunity this guy gets to take a whack at Europe, he takes. That jumped out to me. Marco Rubio absent. Like we don't really hear from that guy on the text thread. Stephen Miller.
- [17:38]
Tommy Vitor
No big ideas.
- [17:38]
Jeremy Shapiro
Stephen Miller is the domestic, he's the domestic policy guy. We never had the domestic policy person in a conversation about military strikes. He got the last word. He's, he comes in SM and he's like, you know, I heard the President say he wants you X, Y and Z. Why is the domestic policy advisor in this conversation to begin with? And then another thing that jumped out to me, Tommy, is that where was the chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff or the CENTCOM commander, the senior military advisors, the actual military officers, they were totally absent from this conversation. So everything about this, the Trump people, like this is reassuring. This is like, these are smart people wrestling with hard things. I wasn't reassured by that.
- [18:21]
Tommy Vitor
No, these are morons who, some of them, a couple months ago were literal drunk Fox News weekend anchors. Yeah, you know, you and I were laughing about how we look. We've been in meetings and in conversations like this where you kind of roll your eyes at a bunch of kind of DC suits giving each other high fives and taking credit for really daring, brave US military operations overseas. And it's like, hey, congrats, guy in the meeting. You wrote a memo about it. These guys were even worse. They were fucking sending emojis to each other. These are grown ass men sending emojis to each other. It does seem like this is really penetrated unlike most other scandals, Ben. I mean, Trump finally tweeted, Michael Waltz has learned a lesson and he's a good man. He, he kind of got Waltz's back today at this White House event, but he's really, he's focusing his rage on Jeffrey Goldberg and just attacking the media. It is also just worth reminding Folks, Ben. That last week the New York Times reported that Elon Musk was planning to go over to the Pentagon to get briefed on the Pentagon's plan for war with China. Now they kind of. I think they walk that back after this report came out. But why do you need to brief the Doge guy, the government efficiency guy, on the war plan with China? That makes no sense in any context. You're not going to doze your way through, like war with Xi Jinping. But it is even crazier when you understand all of Elon Musk's conflicts with China. Like he's trying to sell Teslas to Chinese consumers. Half of Tesla's produced in the last couple of years were made in China. His factory in China was financed with loans from Chinese banks. Republican members of Congress have even called out Musk's ties with China and demanded briefings. So, like, everything about that was weird and kind of outside of regular order. And then we learned about this group chat.
- [20:08]
Jeremy Shapiro
Well, yeah, to connect the dots here. And I hope people keep pounding on this, they should want to see the full text thread. They should demand accountability. And part of the reason why is it's not an isolated incident. It's how these people are dealing with the most sensitive responsibilities of government. If they had a group chat about this, I'm sure they have 20 other group chats. I'm sure there's like a Canada invasion plan, signal threat or whatever. The thing is. And the idea that they would brief Elon Musk on anything related to China of, again, it's part of a pattern of them bypassing any protocols that exist for a reason. These aren't just like namby pamby norms things. The idea is that, like, there's very sensitive information that if China and Russia get access to that information, they will use it to like really screw. I was. I've been using a lot of profanity, so I'm trying to find another word, but let's just say to screw the United States and Elon Musk has these massive conflicts of interest, given his scale of his business interests in China, given the scale of his business interests with the Pentagon. Right. And so giving this, you know, pretty much private citizen access to anything at the Pentagon is insane. But it's the same mentality that would lead you to dismantle the US Government, that would lead you to have a signal group thread. The connective tissue here is that these people don't give a shit about Americans or American interests or American security. They're just in it to either have a good time to enrich themselves, to aggrandize themselves. That's the common thread between all these things.
- [21:45]
Tommy Vitor
It was rather reckless. I heard the original group chat name was Houthis in the blown ship. No, can, can, can some. Some tomatoes or not me. One other weird administration thing, Ben. So the, the second lady, Usha Vance, is apparently going to Greenland. She initially announced this trip in one of the more uncomfortable and awkward Instagram videos I've ever seen. And I'm not trying to be mean to her. It was just a tough. I guess now J.D. vance. Yeah, the vibe. I guess now J.D. vance is tagging along. He released his own video where he said there was just so much excitement about her visit that he had to come does not quite seem credible. In fact, people in Greenland were not thrilled about her trip because, you know, Trump keeps threatening to invade them. I think Mike Waltz is going to Greenland in, in the coming days too. So fire up your signal app. Also, just unrelated, last week Trump revoked the security clearances from a bunch of former Biden officials and assorted enemies includes Joe Biden, Kamala Harris, Tony Blinken, Jake Sullivan, I think actually everyone in the Biden family. So that's, you know, petty and stupid. It is just like it's worth noting that, you know, these Mike Waltz or anyone on the national security team might want to talk to Jake Sullivan or Tony Blinken about something they had worked on over the last four years and now they can't in a classified setting because they stripped away their security clearance. So it seems like a bit of a cell phone here.
- [23:04]
Jeremy Shapiro
Yeah. That there's clearly things that they don't know. You know, conversations that went on with Ukrainians or conversations went on the Middle East. You'd want to maybe call your predecessor and have that conversation. They clearly not interested in that. This visit to Greenland is. There's no reason on earth for Usha Vance and I guess JD Vance to attend a dog sledding race in Greenland. You know, it's like your first thing.
- [23:28]
Tommy Vitor
Like this is your inaugural.
- [23:29]
Jeremy Shapiro
Yeah. You're running advance on the Greenland invasion. And this is backfiring like Greenland, which has had some anti Denmark attitudes, some independence movements. They seem to be pretty united in the fact that they don't want, you know, ushavants coming there to advance the takeover of their country via dog sledding tourism. Right. And so this, this is kind of stuff that like people are again, imagine what this looks like from outside the United States. We look completely out of control. It's a combination of amateur hour and scary fascistic behavior, and that's not a particularly heartening combination.
- [24:19]
Tommy Vitor
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- [28:24]
Jeremy Shapiro
I think the challenge is that Turkey is pretty far down the authoritarian road.
- [28:28]
Tommy Vitor
Right.
- [28:29]
Jeremy Shapiro
Like, Erdogan's been going in this direction for over a decade now, and he's kind of allowed the semblance of an occasional election, while he's kind of taken over all the other institutions and intimidated and sometimes detained opponents. What this shows me, though, that's been clear, is that I think if there was a free and fair election in Turkey, he would lose, and he'd probably lose by a lot. And I know he won the last one, but, I mean, I don't trust that result. This guy. Clearly, if you cannot allow for any public airing of dissent, if you're so afraid of your political opponent that you're going back and making Istanbul University revoke his degree from 30 years ago. So he's disqualified from running against you. That is not someone who's confident that they'd actually win a free and fair election. And so I do think it is useful that what people are showing us in the streets in Turkey is just that Erdogan wants the perception that he's this beloved strongman, and he's not. And so, at a minimum, it's accomplished that. Now, in terms of whether it takes hold, the question is, can they perpetuate this movement? Can it sustain? Can people stay in the streets? Does Erdogan have to make some kind of concession here in releasing the Istanbul mayor? Are there other institutions inside Turkey that kind of start to break in the direction of the opposition? Those things are probably unlikely, but I still think it's important that it's just kind of registered, because this is not the first protest movement we see in Turkey that the Turkish people are not on board with where Erdogan's going. And it's a message for us, too, by the way, like, let's not wait until it's too late to have our own protest movement. Let's get ourselves out in the streets, like, right now, in terms of the region. What's complicated about it is at this moment, Erdogan holds all these cards. He's a key player in Syria because the group that he backed took over Syria. He's a key player in the Russia Ukraine talks because he's been this kind of guy who can shuttle back and forth between the Russians and the Ukrainians. The Europeans desperately need Erdogan for a variety of reasons. There are millions of Syrian migrants in Turkey that he could kind of let go into Europe in this kind of gross way. Turkey's this buffer between more migration into Europe and not if there's a European security initiative, the Europeans will want Turkey to be a part of it because they have actually a pretty capable military. So part of what I'm also worried about is that you're not going to see any external Trump and Musk. They love Arabs.
- [31:00]
Tommy Vitor
It was nothing.
- [31:01]
Jeremy Shapiro
Nothing coming from the US and the Europeans are probably scared to antagonize him, too, and so he'll probably weather this. But we're all seeing before our eyes that the emperor has no clothes here.
- [31:13]
Tommy Vitor
Yeah. Now, Ben, I do have some good news for you. As I mentioned at the top, Steve Wyckoff did this long interview with Tucker Carlson. It came out three days ago, so Sunday, which means, obviously, they recorded it, you know, a few days before. Now in this interview, Though Wyckoff says that Donald Trump recently called President Erdogan and it all sounds pretty hopeful. So here's a clip of Witkoff talking about that call.
- [31:37]
Steve Witkoff
The president had a great conversation with Erdogan a couple of days ago. Really transformational, I would describe it. There's some good coming. There's some. Just a lot of good, positive news coming out of Turkey right now as a result of that conversation. So I think you'll see that in the reporting in the coming days.
- [31:55]
Tommy Vitor
So maybe the good positive news was a brutal crackdown on all protesters.
- [32:01]
Jeremy Shapiro
We gave this guy his due on the Gaza cease fire, which probably did.
- [32:05]
Tommy Vitor
We had some walking back to do.
- [32:06]
Jeremy Shapiro
Well, no, I mean, you know, probably had more to do with the fact that Bibi wanted to humiliate Biden and give Trump this win, and now he's resumed his war. Right. But this guy is literally was on the golf course in Florida like five months ago, and now he somehow thinks. I mean, the one thing I'd say about Eric, I was in, you know, bilateral means of that guy. Very savvy guy. There's a reason he's kind of navigated the last 30 years of geopolitics. The idea that Steve Witkoff, some Florida real estate developer who joined the geopolitical fray like, three months ago, has taken the measure of Erdogan and Putin and is moving these people around like chess pieces. It's so embarrassing and laughable and, you know, just. He's got to boast to it, to Tucker Carlson about it.
- [32:59]
Tommy Vitor
Yeah, it's. I leave, like, I don't even know that he's boasting. I just think he's. Well, they're all boasting. They're all just spouting the line for Trump and saying what Trump wants to hear, but is so unbelievably credulous. There are times where he kind of says things that normal foreign policy thinkers aren't allowed to say. I mean, Tucker Carlson loses his mind. You'll hear some of that. But there's. The credulousness is incredible. And, you know, Jake Sullivan got a lot of shit for putting in writing right before October 7th that, you know, the Middle east had never been quieter. Steve Witkoff saying, you're about to hear some great news out of Turkey because the president's amazing call right before the place explodes in this brutal crackdown is. Is right up there.
- [33:39]
Jeremy Shapiro
And I think what happens, because, you know, Erdogan used to do this with Obama, too. Like, I'm sure he says, oh, President Trump you're so great. This is just transformational leadership. And, and, oh, by the way, President Trump, your envoy, Steve Woodkoff is the greatest envoy of all. And these people just believe it. They're so narcissistic that if Putin or Erdogan, like, just drop a little flattery, and they're like, this is the greatest call. I'm sure everyone could have said, like, this is the greatest phone call in the history of phone calls. And they believe that that's true. It's pretty embarrassing.
- [34:09]
Tommy Vitor
Okay, let's move over to Israel, because last week we talked about Israeli Prime Minister Bibi Netanyahu's attempt to fire Ronan Barr, the head of the Shin Bet, which is Israel's domestic intelligence service. On Friday, the Israeli Supreme Court issued an injunction and blocked him. They ordered a hearing on the situation in the coming weeks. So, as we talked about, Bar has led the shin bet since 2021. If he is forced out, he would be the first Shin Bet leader in Israel's history to get fired. It has been widely reported that the Shin Bet is investigating ties between Netanyahu's aides and Qatar, the country. There is in the coverage, Ben, that there's a suggestion that the wrongdoing could range from illegal lobbying or taking payments to possibly even being paid spies for the Qatari government. It's kind of hard to suss it out, but, like, there's a lot of reading between the lines happening in the coverage. Netanyahu's office denies that Ronan Barr's firing is connected to that investigation into his aides. But everyone should doubt that Netanyahu was also now trying to fire Israel's Attorney General. She had been trying to slow, if not outright prevent Ronan Barr from getting fired. Now, the good news here is that Netanyahu's cabinet may have unanimously voted against her in a no confidence vote. The actual process to remove the Attorney General is far more onerous and will take some time. But these moves together have once again led to massive protests across Israel. I've heard reports of up to 100,000 people on the streets, which is enormous given Israel's total population. And there's warnings from the Chief justice of Israel's Supreme Court that there would be a constitutional crisis of sorts if Netanyahu ignores the Supreme Court. They don't have a constitution, but you go what I mean. So Netanyahu's coalition, unfortunately got stronger last week when this right wing lunatic we've talked about many times, Tamar Ben GVIR and his Jewish Power Party, rejoined the government coalition. He had quit back in January after the ceasefire. And when the ceasefire ended, he got back in. So, Ben, you know, there's obvious parallels when we talk about this stuff between the political situation in Israel and what we're now experiencing here in the US I do have to say the notable difference so far is Israelis, to their great credit, are back out in the streets and protesting and doing it weekly, even. And we are not yet. And that seems like a real problem.
- [36:29]
Jeremy Shapiro
It is a real problem. I mean, 100,000 Israelis is comparable to. I don't know. I'm not good at math, but, like, well over 10 million Americans, you know, and it's pretty obvious what's happening here. I mean, the notion that they, at a minimum, Netanyahu and his kind of cohort facilitated payments to Hamas as part of this strategy of keeping them in power and keeping the Palestinian leadership divided and having Hamas as a boogeyman, that is so well documented, you know, and these guys will do.
- [37:02]
Tommy Vitor
And there's a question of whether that policy emerged from these Qataris and was sort of, like, given to the Israeli side or whether, you know, it certainly sounds like that policy came from Netanyahu's political aides and not the security establishment. And it's.
- [37:16]
Jeremy Shapiro
Yes. I can't. I mean, I don't know, and I'll get to this in a second. But, you know, I don't know for sure, but, like, I can't imagine, like, the IDF or Shin Bet being like, hey, we've got a good idea, you know, and let's, like, fund Hamas. But wouldn't you like to know? I mean, that's my key point here is like, wouldn't if you were Israeli, or, by the way, a U.S. taxpayer that just keeps shoveling billions of dollars in bombs at Israel. Wouldn't you like to know whether or not this was a scheme thrust upon the Israelis by, you know, somebody else, or whether there were a couple of bad apples or whether the prime minister himself had approved this. Like, this is exactly what you would want to investigate. And it's very clear that Netanyahu, I mean, kind of a tell that he doesn't want this person to keep investigating in a system in which the Shin Bet, even more so than the FBI in the United States, is supposed to be this kind of sacrosanct independent security service. And now what we're seeing is the kind of copycat of Trump, like, Bibi wants his own Kash Patel in charge of the shinbank. That's what's happening here, and everybody can see it. And let me just say, like, all the enablers of Netanyahu in this country, in the United States, all the AIPAC crowd are. They're a part of this. You know, like, call this out. Why are we running interference with this fucking guy? The Israelis are in the streets in huge numbers, and yet, you know, people, like, watch what they say about this in the United States. Why is this not a bigger story in the United States? This is a huge deal.
- [38:49]
Tommy Vitor
I know.
- [38:49]
Jeremy Shapiro
And it barely registers. People, you know.
- [38:52]
Tommy Vitor
Well, at the exact moment when the Trump administration is telling kids at Columbia University what they can and cannot say about the Israeli government or Israeli government policies, you've got Israelis saying far more harsh things about Netanyahu and this anti government crackdown that's happening than anyone here ever will.
- [39:08]
Jeremy Shapiro
We're talking about some kid at Columbia, you know, chanting a slogan you don't like, and it's too friendly to Hamas, and so we're going to deport that person. We're talking about Israeli leaders potentially funneling millions of dollars to Hamas. You know, like, isn't that more of a.
- [39:23]
Tommy Vitor
Seems worse.
- [39:24]
Jeremy Shapiro
Isn't that more. Providing support is what's worse in terms of supporting Hamas, like, facilitating all this money getting to them, or like chanting a slogan at the Columbia University quad, like, what planet are we on?
- [39:37]
Tommy Vitor
Yeah, it's crazy. So we mentioned that. Unfortunately, the war in Gaza has restarted. Israelis started bombing again. The Gaza Health Ministry now says that more than 50,000 thousand Palestinians have been killed since the war started, 700 of them since the end of the ceasefire. A third of those, they say were children. That's just another horrifying statistic. Israel's Defense Minister, Israel Katz, says pretty overtly they're ramping the war back up. Here's a quote. I have instructed the IDF to seize additional areas in Gaza while evacuating the population and to expand the security zones around Gaza for the protection of Israeli communities and IDF soldiers. The more Hamas persists in its refusal to release the hostages, the more territory it will lose, which will be annexed to Israel. Several news outlets giving away the game there, you know. Yeah. A bunch of news outlets reported the IDF is considering a huge ground operation, an offensive into Gaza with the goal of fully occupying the Gaza Strip and establishing military rule there. Ominously, Israel is also setting up an agency to supervise the, quote, voluntary departure of Gazans from the Gaza Strip, which is a move that echoes Trump's plan to ethnically cleanse Gaza. But again, Ben, our buddy Steve Wyckoff had to weigh in. Two quotes we want to play for you guys. The first is this one of Steve talking about Hamas.
- [40:48]
Steve Witkoff
What they want is unacceptable. What's acceptable to us is they need to demilitarize. Then maybe they could stay there a little bit. Right. Be involved politically. But they can't be involved. We can't have a terrorist organization running, running Gaza because that won't be acceptable to Israel. Then we'll just have the same exact experiences every, every 5, 10, 15 years. We're gonna have an October 27th. Yes, October 7th. Pardon me. So that's what Hamas wants. That's not possible.
- [41:17]
Tommy Vitor
So we'll get to the second clip in a couple minutes. But that clip to me was kind of the duality of Wycuff Ben because he's like, I don't think it's unreasonable to suggest that Hamas might play some role in the future governance of Gaza, but you sure as hell better believe that Netanyahu is never going to let that happen. Is probably furious that Wyckov would let that slip. It was just interesting to hear him say it.
- [41:37]
Jeremy Shapiro
Yeah. And I don't really get their. What's missing here is a theory of, because you're right, you could listen and be like, okay, that's reasonable. Like, Hamas needs to abandon its kind of military wing, demilitarize, and then be a part of some political structure in Gaza. But there's no vision for how any of that happens. There's not a horizon for Palestinian reconciliation with the Palestinian Authority or the generation of new Palestinian leadership. There's certainly no discussion of when Gaza will be self governing again. There's no discussion obviously of a Palestinian state. And so there are these kind of demands made in interviews with Tucker Carlson or wherever. And then all that we see in practice is Israel bombing Gaza again. They're killing journalists and children, and we send more weapons and we send more weapons. And then the defense minister is literally talking about annexation of parts of Gaza. And so it's hard for me to take seriously that Wyckoff is like, trying to solve some problem. It just feels like a different flavor of talking. While Israel's creating facts on the ground that look increasingly like a plan for annexation and ethnic cleansing. I mean that. And you say that people get bent out of shape. It's like they're saying that, you know, like the Israeli minister of defense said the word annexation.
- [42:58]
Tommy Vitor
It's clear as day. And just to add to what you said, I mean, we also wanted to play for you a quote of Steve Wyckoff talking about Gaza reconstruction that I think gets at the utter absurdity of whatever plan they might have or I guess just a lack of plan. Here is more from Steve Wyckoff on Tucker Carlson.
- [43:15]
Steve Witkoff
We're going to attempt to, you know, to ascertain different development plans for Gaza. Could involve the word two state. Could not involve the word.
- [43:26]
Tommy Vitor
What about that?
- [43:26]
Steve Witkoff
You don't hear that anymore.
- [43:27]
Tommy Vitor
I mean, for my whole life the stated aspiration was a Palestinian state.
- [43:33]
Steve Witkoff
But man, I haven't in the past five or six, 10 years heard anybody.
- [43:39]
Tommy Vitor
In authority even mention it.
- [43:42]
Steve Witkoff
Because when you use those words, it's like a flashpoint, right? So I use the word. I could be attacked for it. To me it's just a word, right? What two state to me means is how do we have a better living prescription for Palestinians who are living in Gaza? Let's get to that place. But it's not just about housing. Maybe it's about AI coming there. Maybe it's about hyperscale data centers being seeded into that area because we need to have that and these people can now take advantage and we can create jobs for them there. Maybe it's about blockchain and robotics coming there. Maybe it's about pharmaceutical manufacturing coming there.
- [44:25]
Tommy Vitor
So interesting that we're walking away completely from the two state solution while also suggesting, Ben, that Gaza's power grid, which even pre October 7th was sometimes only able to supply, you know, two to four hours worth of electricity to residents per day, is primed and ready for AI and blockchain is it. That's what we're talking about here. That's, that's our plan.
- [44:46]
Jeremy Shapiro
I don't even know what to say about that. And I'd heard it before, but doesn't he sound like someone having a conversation with Trump on the golf course? You know, like first of all, is two state one, like you keep saying it like the word two state, you know, that's like such a Trumpian formulation. Like I'm going to say the word two state, which might be two words or hyphenated at least. But anyway, put that aside.
- [45:09]
Tommy Vitor
Yeah. Hyphenated.
- [45:10]
Jeremy Shapiro
Yeah. I don't, this is like a version of Trump saying about like we're going to depopulate and create a Riviera and now we're going to bring all the things that they like that they don't fully understand. You know, AI blockchain, data centers, pharmaceuticals, making a cameo appearance. Like these things are going to come.
- [45:31]
Tommy Vitor
It sounds like a bullshit tech company's earnings call. It's like I'm just going to sprinkle in some buzzwords for a fucking algorithm that make stock prices go up.
- [45:40]
Jeremy Shapiro
It sounds like an Aussie media pitch, you know, like, like, you know, we're sorry, that's still too inside. But like, no, that's good. You've got a PowerPoint, you know, where like the first deck is, the first slide is like Gaza rubble and the second is like a data center. And I like, these are human beings. And the other thing that actually is truly notable about this though is that he doesn't even mention the west bank because like actually I think that's probably just going to be annexed, you know, gradually by Israel. You know, like the heart of the two state solution is actually in the west bank, you know, so I don't know, man. I do not leave that with a great deal of confidence that there's going to be a flowering of data centers in the, you know, independent Palestinian state of Gaza anytime soon.
- [46:27]
Tommy Vitor
We are going to blockchain our way to peace. Just two other quick things on this. It's worth noting that there have been some flare ups between Israel and Lebanon that the BBC describes as the worst violence between the two countries since the ceasefire in Lebanon came into effect last November. So that's troubling and something we're watching. And then also there was a horrible incident yesterday in the west bank that we wanted to highlight, which was Hamdan Bilal, who is the Palestinian co director of the Oscar winning documentary no Other Land. He was attacked by violent Israeli settlers. We were able to connect with a witness, a woman named Jenna who was there as a volunteer for the center for Jewish Nonviolence. She and some other volunteers received a call from Bilal saying he was being attacked. And here's how she described what happened next.
- [47:12]
Jenna
We drove to Hamdan's house. Already there, there was a ton of police and soldier cars, army vehicles, so we thought we had seen soldiers on the top of the hill where Hamdan lives. So we started, three of us got out of the car and started walking towards the house. In reality, it turns out that it was actually the settlers who were attacking. One of them came towards us. He was masked. He started screaming at us. I was screaming in English at him, you know, don't do this. He shoved me pretty hard and then he punched my friend in the stomach and in the neck. And so we tried to run back to the car. They were hitting us with with sticks. I was basically safed because of a sunscreen aerosol can in my back. Took the brunt force. Very, very dented. But still Works. Thank you, banana boat. And as we were getting to the car, they were throwing stones, broke the windows, slash the tire. The driver was honking the horn to get the army's attention. And they eventually showed up and the settlers ran back to continue the attack on Hamdan and the other two Palestinians houses. We were telling the soldiers, like, they attacked us. They attacked us, like, help us. Go get them. And the soldiers stood there and did nothing. We told them that there's families in these houses, they needed to go protect them. They just stood there and did nothing.
- [48:42]
Tommy Vitor
Shout out to Jenna in the center for Jewish Nonviolence for literally putting their bodies on the line in the wake of this horrific violence. And she's frankly describing something that happens far too often, which is that the IDF soldiers who are in the west bank are more there to protect violent settlers than any of the residents there, including any peaceful protesters who often get brutalized. So the good news is that Hamdul was released Tuesday after being held overnight at a military base. The Guardian reported that he had bruises on his face, blood on his clothes, but thank God was alive. And there's initial. Someone initially tweeted that he'd been lynched. And it was not clear if this person was speaking kind of metaphorically or. Or literally. Is very scary for a minute. But, you know, Ben, we've focused so much on Gaza over the last, you know, year and a half, two years. But this incident is just a reminder that settler violence is a huge and growing problem. And like you said a minute ago, it feels like the plan for the west bank is Israeli annexation.
- [49:41]
Jeremy Shapiro
Yeah. And it's a constant. So what happens is settlers just attack Palestinians, and then the IDF comes and arrests the Palestinians, you know, and the settlers have impunity. And that. That is what is happening right now in Israel, in the west bank, and has been for years. And. And in this particular case, you know, he wins an Academy Award. That's why they're attacking him. You know, it's because they know that for a variety of reasons, like, Americans will not speak up in defense of this person. And, like, our silence is a permission slip for them to do what they did. And the last thing I'd say is, Tommy, every now and then, like, something like this will happen. And I'm sure you and I have talked about this before on the podcast, but, like, we have people in our lives, you know, why are you hard on Israel? And we get emails from people. I just want. How do you defend this? Like. Like, I want to ask all of those People. How do you defend a group of settlers? This guy did nothing. He made a movie that went in academy ward. He was in his house and some people showed up and beat the shit out of him. And then the authorities came and arrested him. How do you defend that? This has nothing to do with Hamas. This isn't Gaza. October 7th. How do you defend that? Like I'm at a loss for words to understand. I just don't understand the mentality of people that can see that and think it's okay.
- [51:05]
Tommy Vitor
Yeah. And it's, it's maybe not state sponsored, but it's state supported, state enabled. You know these IDF's. Yeah, yeah, for sure. I mean these IDF soldiers, they're, they're solely there to protect the settlers. And you've got people like Itmar Ben gvir, who is now a part of the government again, who is helping arm these violent settlers. So it's. It, it's very scary stuff. Ben Pod Save the World is brought to you by three Day Blinds. We are going to have some three day blinds installed in our office. I can't wait. Cannot wait. In fact. You guys don't know that blinds is going to unlock. It's the key to fixing the entire office setup. Because currently I can't face a certain direction because the westward sun is blinding at a certain hour and I cannot look at my friends and coworkers and see them. You guys don't know this. I just. Terrible blind. I spend all day, I just look at the back of Tommy's head. Yeah, I just, I just hear John breathing right into the back of my head all day long. We need three day blinds. If your space has a similar problem and you need blinds, there's a better way to buy blinds, shades, shutters and drapery. It's called three day Blinds. They're a leading manufacturer of high quality custom window treatments in the US and right now, if you use my URL, which is three day blinds.com world, they are running a buy one, get one 50% off deal. We can shop for almost anything at home. Why not shop for blinds at home too? Three Day Blinds has local, professionally trained design consultants who average 10 or more years of experience that provide expert guidance on the blinds that are right for you in the comfort of your own home. You just set up an appointment and you get a free no obligation quote the same day. If you're not very handy or just lazy, I might be a combo. DIY projects they can be fun, but installing blinds sounds like it absolutely sucks. The Expert team at 3 Day Blinds handles all the heavy lifting they'll design, measure, install so you can sit back, relax and leave it to the pros. Right now, get quality window treatments that fit your budget with 3 day blinds. Head to threedayblinds.com world for their buy one get one 50% off deal on custom blinds, shades, shutters and drapery for free. No charge, no obligation consultation. Just head to three day blinds.com world one last time. That's buy one get one 50% off when you head to the number 3D a Y blinds.com world. Welcome, ladies and gentlemen to Mario's Bistro.
- [53:32]
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- [54:01]
Tommy Vitor
Okay, we are going to switch gears entirely though and talk about Russia because on Tuesday, Russia and Ukraine agreed to stop fighting in the Black Sea and also agreed to continue trying to work out details for a ceasefire between the two sides on energy infrastructure. Remember, Trump had announced this, I think last week. This all happened during these US Mediated talks that are going on in Saudi Arabia. Now it's worth pointing out Russia is demanding even more concessions before they'll agree to even this very limited ceasefire in the Black Sea. Specifically, they want to restore their agricultural banks access to the international payment system and they want to get the west to lift restrictions on, quote, trade, finance, operations. Basically, they're demanding that the US Walk back even more sanctions, even more penalties that were imposed on Russia after the full scale invasion in 2022. Now, not surprisingly, the White House okayed this additional giveaway to the Russians in their statement about these talks. And again, a ceasefire deal that is just focused on the Black Sea is already tilted toward the Russians because that's the one place where the Ukrainians, because of these interesting like boat drones they created, have been able to cause a lot of damage and really target the Russian Navy in an impactful way and kind of shut down whole areas of operations that their, their shipping. But again, we want to play like one last clip of our boy Steve Wyckoff talking with Tucker Carlson this time about Putin and U.S. relations with Russia.
- [55:31]
Steve Witkoff
Here's Steve again, President Putin had commissioned a beautiful portrait of President Trump from the leading Russian artist and actually gave it to me and asked me to take it home to President Trump, which I brought home and delivered to him. It's been reported in the paper. But it was such a gracious moment. And told me a story, Tucker, about how when the President was shot, he went to his local church and met with his priest and prayed for the President, not because he was the President of the United, he could become the President of the United States, but because he had a friendship with him and he was praying for his friend. Someone I was talking to someone in the administration, they said, well, you know, you got to watch it because he's an ex KGB guy. So I said, okay, what's the inference? Well, he's an ex KGB guy. He could be looking to manipulate you. He's a super smart guy. Okay. You don't want to give him the credit for it. That's okay. I give him the credit.
- [56:26]
Tommy Vitor
They must hate you for saying stuff like that.
- [56:28]
Steve Witkoff
But, but he is.
- [56:30]
Tommy Vitor
I know. I mean, I'm very aware.
- [56:32]
Steve Witkoff
So I think the largest issue in that conflict are these so called four regions. Donbass, Crimea, you know the name Lugansk. And there's, there, there's two others.
- [56:47]
Tommy Vitor
First of all, I'm used to Tucker Carlson's laugh, but it's still just, it's so jarring. It's like he's being chased around by Jack Nicholson in the Shining. It's like so hysterical. But you hear that and it's so credulous. And he's clearly being manipulated. Then mocks the people warning him about being manipulated. And like, of course Zelensky is apoplectic about these peace talks. And Witkoff, you know, having this major role in these things, even like Putin's.
- [57:15]
Jeremy Shapiro
Friends would not be as credulous of Putin as Steve Witkoff. Like, oh, he had a painting of Trump done. He lit a candle in the church.
- [57:25]
Tommy Vitor
Like you how many mics in that painting believe that?
- [57:28]
Jeremy Shapiro
Like, it's amazing. Steve Wyckoff is walking around and like, he's probably like, like wait till, wait till someone sends him one of those like Nigerian prince emails. And like he's going to give away his fortune. Like, this is the guy in charge of the ending the war. Like, like there's nobody on earth as credulous of Putin as that. You know, like Xi Jinping doesn't trust Putin, like, like in that way. And the fact that, and then Tucker, by the way, coming in with like the four provinces, those are part of Ukraine. Right. And like Tucker's jumping in. He knows them. Like he's got the. I mean these guys are a little too familiar with the Russian narrative for you to be comfortable about it. They're not disputed provinces.
- [58:14]
Tommy Vitor
They're not familiar enough to name the fucking territory that he's trying to negotiate away from the Ukrainians.
- [58:21]
Jeremy Shapiro
I love that the envoy doesn't know it, but the kind of Russia, you know, the super pro Russian talk show host is like, I'll jump in there, it's Luhansky or whatever, you know. But these are not disputed provinces. These are parts of Ukraine that Russia invaded and is trying to annex. And they're talking about them like, and these guys keep.
- [58:38]
Tommy Vitor
No, Ben, I'm glad you said. Because these guys, these were the MAGA types. Keep talking about Tucker in particular. Keep talking about how they're. Oh, there were referendum in these Russian speaking eastern provinces. First of all, a lot of people in these areas speak both Russian and Ukrainian. But to the extent that there were referendums, they were done under occupation, under duress. There is literal visual evidence of ballot boxes where the results were not to the liking of the Russian side that were lit on fire and burned. This is very well established and like, I'm fine with, you know, if Tucker is like, big point is like, okay, we should hear the Russian perspective, understand their threats. You know, like where you sit is where you stand. That's part of diplomacy.
- [59:22]
Ben Rhodes
Sure.
- [59:22]
Tommy Vitor
But you don't have to be fucking credulous. You have to believe everything they say.
- [59:26]
Jeremy Shapiro
They're not even talking about NATO enlargement anymore. They're now they're fully inhabiting the Russian narrative about provinces and put, you know, can. I'm going to make a Gen X reference. Like the painting, like, if all goes to shit for Trump, it's going to be like Vince Vaughn walking out at wedding crashers. Like the painting was a gift, Todd. Like I'm keeping the. Like Trump's last possession painting was a gift, Vlad. Yeah, yeah. The last possession that he will carry out of the White House is that painting that Vladimir Putin gifted him.
- [59:52]
Tommy Vitor
I'm sure he will. I mean like the Moscow Times reported the Kremlin's purposely slow walking the talks. Thank you for reporting it out, but no shit again, Putin's aims are pretty maximalist. Like he won't even agree to a 30 day cease fire, which remember, is what Trump actually wanted. Not these limited cease fires. But the Russian position is that to get there would require a halt to Western military aid to Ukraine and to their country's mobilization efforts of their own troops, which is just nonstarters. But again, there's just no pressure applied to the Russian side.
- [60:20]
Jeremy Shapiro
None. Zero.
- [60:21]
Tommy Vitor
None. All right, Ben, Two conflicts. There's two major conflicts in Africa that we've talked about a lot that we wanted to touch on again today. The first is the civil war in Sudan. That war is coming up on its two year anniversary of the fighting between the Sudanese armed forces and its former ally, this militia group called the rsf. So the results of this war have been utterly catastrophic. Tens of thousands of people have been killed. 12 million people have been displaced. An estimated 30 million people need food assistance. And of course, all of this is happening as Elon Musk and Deputy Assistant Assistant Deputy of State Rubio destroy usaid. United nations is trying to kind of fill the gap here. And they are not even able to raise 50% of their assistance goals. So there is a massive need and even less resources to, to deal with it. But there was a pretty big military and symbolic breakthrough in the war last week when the Sudanese armed forces captured the presidential palace in Khartoum. There's not like a look, good guys, bad guys is a reductive way to talk about this. The Sudanese armed forces were part of a coup that toppled a democratically elected group of peaceful protesters. Like, they're not good guys. But in this case, I think they're better than the RSF and hopefully the, the s. The staff. The Sudanese armed forces will be able to drive the RSF troops out of the capital so people can go home and the government can try to resume function to some extent, restore basic services, maybe create some sort of technocratic government that can get people like power, water, food, aid, et cetera. But even if they capture all of Khartoum, that doesn't do much for people in the Darfur region because, you know, many of the same Islamist rebel groups that conducted the genocide in Darfur in the early 2000s are now part of the RSF. And they are once again doing evil, killing civilians, using rape as a tool of war, laying siege to entire cities full of like a million plus displaced people. So again, USAID has been decimated. There's not even nearly enough food and medical support. But Ben, what are you watching in this conflict after this kind of turning point in, in Khartoum?
- [62:23]
Jeremy Shapiro
It just does feel like this is decisively shifted. It makes you wonder what was the point of all this? You know, what was the point of this civil war? Why would did the governments like the UAE back the RSF for two years to. For what purpose? You know, and so I wanted to watch whether there's any continued foreign assistance flowing into the RSF from places like the UAE or whether they just kind of go back to being a pariah. And I think that will probably happen. To your point, I assume that the military will consolidate control over Khartoum. Watch what happens in Darfur, though, because these guys, the rsf, they were the John Dewey before they were the rsf. They could go back there, kind of take it out on the people there. But the main thing to watch is what happens if there's no usaid, because this would be a place where the USAID would be not only on the ground, but it'd be a force multiplier, bringing in other assistance. And so I think we have to watch how much philanthropies can get basic needs met, how much the Europeans and other governments can come in. And I worry that that's not going to happen and that you're going to have a lingering humanitarian crisis.
- [63:29]
Tommy Vitor
Yeah, me too. It is really, really bad and really dark. The USAID piece is horrific. I did. I noticed that Marco Rubio, in his, I think, confirmation hearing, talked about the need to pressure the UAE to stop funneling arms to the rsf. Though I think he just recently went to the uae. That topic was not part of his public readout. Maybe it came up privately, but he was far more focused on the uae, you know, pumping money into the US Economy or whatever Trump wanted him to talk about. So yet I'm not sure we're getting the leadership we need there. And then the second conflict that we've been wanted to talk about was in the Congo. So the quick backstory is, in recent months, the M23 rebel group, with explicit support from the Rwandan military, has invaded big parts of the Democratic Republic of Congo. This fighting is believed to have killed at least 7,000 people and displaced more than 7 million people. And then last week, the M23's troops attacked even further west, into a city called Walikale that is both a mining hub and also an important strategic location because it's got a road there that connects four provinces in eastern Congo. Officials in Rwanda and Congo met in Qatar last week. They talked about a possible ceasefire, but an M23 leader poured cold water on it and said basically they would refuse to honor any agreement that's cut without them. Now, this gets weirder when you learn about this, this offer from the President of Congo, Felix Cesake, who is clearly concerned that Things are gonna get worse, not better. So he offered the Trump administration a deal that would allow the US access to Congo's estimated $24 trillion worth of mineral resources in exchange for some sort of military support to expel the M23. Then there's also reports that a soulless private mercenary named Erik Prince, who once ran an organization called Blackwater, this private militia group has been in talks with the officials in Congo about providing security for their mining operations and for to the government, especially the government's tax collectors who are trying to get money from these miners. It's just hard to think of a setup more rifed for abuse and human rights violations than Erik Prince in the Congo. But I don't know. What are you watching? When it comes to this M23 assault into the DRC, I think we just.
- [65:49]
Jeremy Shapiro
Learned a few things. One is that, you know, rwanda and the M23 always deny that they're focused on minerals. They always claim some need to create a buffer or secure Tutsis or their ethnic group. But everything they're doing suggests that they're trying to seize minerals in eastern Congo that are of immense value. That's clear. And so I'd watch whether they just push further, whether in this kind of new world order where everybody's Trump's going to grab minerals in Greenland, they just feel like it's legitimized for them to do that and how much human cost goes along with that. And then I would really, really watch this, Erik. Princeton, and if not them, some iteration of the Wagner group, because the Congolese army cannot stand up to M23. There's tons of money down there. If you're at Princeton, you can get a stake of the mineral resources for providing security. The Russians have been deep in the DRC themselves, and so I think this could kind of become a playground for the worst kinds of people in the world, these private mercenaries. And I would watch that very closely because this feels like it could get a lot worse. And kind of all the worst people in the world could descend on this place, which has happened to the Congolese before.
- [67:05]
Tommy Vitor
No, look, I read that Wall Street Journal story about Erik Prince making this pitch to do whatever in the Congo, and it sent a shiver down my spine. These private mercenaries trying to extract rare earth minerals, cobalt, Congo. Jesus Christ. It's like a bad horror movie. There was a great piece in Foreign affairs about this conflict and kind of the history there. It's just worth pointing out, Ben, the Western response so far has been pretty pathetic. Like there was subjoined statements between the US and Europe. Obviously, that's not worth anything. The UN Security Council called for a ceasefire and withdrawal of M23 troops, but they're not doing anything about it. The US has put some sanctions in place. The EU is reviewing a joint minerals extraction deal it has with Rwanda, but apparently Luxembourg is blocking any EU sanctions on Rwanda because they want to develop some sort of financial center in Rwanda. And interestingly, I mean, I think, as you were saying, initially, this conflict was viewed as having more parochial origins. Like, there was some talk that Rwandan President Paul Kagame was mad about getting cut out of a deal to create some sort of regional road and rail infrastructure. But as M23 has taken more territory, people are taking a harder look at some of his past statements, especially a speech he gave in 2023 where he suggested that Rwanda's pre colonial borders include parts of the Congo and also Uganda and Burundi. So there's real concern that this is more of like a Vladimir Putin, let's return, you know, the Rwandan imperial empire more than something else. Yeah, greater Rwanda, exactly feels that way. Yeah, it feels pretty scary. So, quick immigration update. Over the weekend, Venezuela agreed to begin accepting deportation flights from the US With Venezuelan President Nicolas Maduro saying it was an opportunity to, quote, rescue and free migrants from prisons in the US that original Patriot deal I think we talked about on the show had been worked out by a friend of the pod, Rick Grenell, back in January before falling apart after Trump revoked Chevron's oil license in Venezuela. Also on Monday, Ben Trump announced that the US is going to place 25 tariffs on any country that buys Venezuelan oil or gas. And late last week, the Department of Homeland Security announced it would revoke temporary protected status for over 500, 000 immigrants from Cuba, Haiti, Nicaragua and Venezuela. So that means now hundreds of thousands of people who are all here legally can either deport themselves or ICE or even the IRS has been reported some places will try to find them and deport them by this April 24 deadline, which is less than a month from now. So this is just unbelievably grim stuff, Ben, because, you know, Haiti, as we've covered, is experiencing gang violence at levels that you would normally only see in an active war zone. And Trump is at the same time actively trying to destroy what's left of Venezuela's economy with more sanctions, while telling people who are here legally that their options are go home to a dictator that you have fled or worse, end up in a gulag down in El Salvador. It is the most unbelievably cruel thing.
- [70:12]
Jeremy Shapiro
You can imagine to hundreds of thousands of people. You know, this is not a small number of people that, like the US Is. You get to be in a gulag, you get to go back to war zone, or you get to get hunted down by ice. I mean, this is having a horrific human cost to populations that are not, you know, these are here legally tps, like, they didn't storm the border. Like, these are people that have a legal status. The only thing I want to add to this, Tommy, is that Marco Rubio, assistant trash collector at the State Department, is now the Secretary of State who has presided over the canceling of all USAID democracy, funding for Cuba, the termination of Radio Marti, the mass deportation and prohibition on Cubans entering the United States. Some friend of the Cuban people this guy turned out to be, you know, who's been posing as a champion. I mean, it's comical. It's absolutely comical. Hello, South Florida hardliners. Here is your hero. Here's your God, Marco Rubio, throwing your people out of the country, terminating any lifeline to them. Like, what a joke. You know, give me, like, it boggles anybody who follows, and I know this is kind of niche, but anybody who's followed the cube issue for. For decades, this. This is unbelievable that this guy's literally implementing the worst nightmare for himself, like, two years ago as Secretary of State.
- [71:45]
Tommy Vitor
This guy's a walking Greek tragedy. It is just so fitting that the cost for him to ascend to the heights of government power that he thinks he deserve is to literally overturn everything he's ever believed in and actively harm the things he's worked on over the course of his career. And.
- [72:02]
Jeremy Shapiro
And he could have been invited into the group chat if just by being an Atlantic reporter, he didn't need to, you know, sell his soul like this.
- [72:07]
Tommy Vitor
Yeah, but you could have gotten cc. No matter what. It's really easy to just super quick things first. Mark Carney, the Prime Minister of Canada, called for snap elections. So Canada is now going to have elections on April 28th. Clearly, Carney wants the focus to be on who can best fight the Trump administration, both the tariffs and these not at all funny jokes that are still going about making Canada 51st state. Canadians get to vote to elect members of the House of Commons in each of Canada's 343 electoral districts. Then they'll work to form a majority government. You'll need 172 seats for a majority government. Of course, the two parties can work together. For a minority government. The party will then pick its leader and that person becomes prime minister. Another election news, Ben. Retired ultimate fighting champion fighter Conor McGregor says he's going to run for president of Ireland. So that's interesting. A lot of blows to the head, a lot of allegations of non stop drug and alcohol abuse. So maybe he'll probably win. He'll break that setup. He'll probably win.
- [73:09]
Jeremy Shapiro
I My only two quick comments on these are a friend of the pod, Mike O'Deal should run for President of Ireland against Conor McGregor. Agreed, I'd work on that campaign. And then Mark Carney, I just messaged the Canadians. I know you already know this, but when Trump said he was endorsing Mark Carney, that's called trolling. He does not actually want Mark Carney to win, he wants him to lose. That's why he said that we at POD say the world are endorsing Mark Carney sincerely and hope he wins.
- [73:37]
Tommy Vitor
Yes, we absolutely are. And because Pierre Polyvar stand by our apology joke. You know Pierre Polyev? Yeah, he's what?
- [73:43]
Jeremy Shapiro
I just pronounced his name wrong and I don't even feel bad about that. Like you know he's good, he's a maga like guy, you know, give me a break.
- [73:48]
Tommy Vitor
Take that Pierre. Okay, we are long show from us. God there's a lot to cover. We could have done much more stuff but we're going to take a quick break and when we come back, you're going to hear my interview with Jeremy Shapiro from the European Council on Foreign Relations. We take a tour of the region. In Europe we talk about Turkey, Romania, Hungary, Italy, Germany. Lots of interesting stuff that's worth your time. So stick around for that.
- [74:21]
Ben Rhodes
Pod.
- [74:21]
Tommy Vitor
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- [76:46]
Jeremy Shapiro
Where am I?
- [76:49]
Tommy Vitor
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- [77:04]
Jeremy Shapiro
Pod save the world.
- [77:05]
Tommy Vitor
Said stay tuned for the segue. To the next segment, you support our show. God damn it. Tell them pod, save the world. I'm sure it's a light one. Enhance your everyday with Via welcome ladies and gentlemen to Mario's Bistro.
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- [77:49]
Tommy Vitor
Jeremy Shapiro is the Research Director at the European Council on Foreign Relations. Jeremy, thank you so much for doing the show.
- [77:54]
Ben Rhodes
Thanks for having me.
- [77:56]
Tommy Vitor
There is a lot going on in Europe, so I was very excited to talk with you, an expert on whole range of things. Ben and I talked earlier in the show about the scary crackdown and democratic backsliding in Turkey after President Erdogan arrested his chief political rival, the mayor of Istanbul. There is this massive protest movement happening as we speak, trying to force Erdogan to backtrack and undo this crackdown. But if he stays the course, I mean, what do you think this says about Turkey's future as a democracy and also as part of Europe?
- [78:30]
Ben Rhodes
Yeah, not good things. Fundamentally. Turkey has for a while been what political scientists like to call sort of a competitive authoritarian state, which means that it's governed in a pretty authoritarian way, but they do have reasonably competitive elections. This arrest sort of demonstrates that the government now is not even really willing to put up with those competitive elections, which means it's sort of floating toward a Russia like pure autocracy, which certainly isn't good for the people of Turkey. And it's not, frankly a good precedent for other countries, other democracies, frankly, including our own. But in terms of its acceptance into Europe, it's a pretty good moment for Turkey to do this because the Europeans really feel like they need Turkey's help in dealing with Russia and Ukraine, given that the United States seems to be a lot less reliable. And of course the United States under Donald Trump doesn't really seem to care about democratic backsliding in countries like Turkey. Donald Trump is talking about letting Turkey back into the F35 program, the fighter program, and Erdogan, the president of Turkey, might visit the White House next month. And I don't think any of this is really affecting that calculation.
- [79:52]
Tommy Vitor
I did not know he was going to visit. Yeah, I was reading something the other day that I believe said that Turkey has the second largest military in NATO and also has one of the most advanced defense industry sectors of any country. And I mean, I know I've read a lot recently about is it Baytar, like their drone company? But it does sound like that a lot of countries have been increasingly reliant on Turkey's defense industry. Is that right?
- [80:20]
Ben Rhodes
Yeah, to a degree. I mean, the drones that Turkey produces were very effective and important in the early part of the Ukraine war, and the provision of those to Ukraine was a big deal for the Ukrainians, and the Russians were pretty pissed off about it. As the war has evolved, it's evolved past those drones. And most of the drones are now made indigenously in Ukraine. And Russia is getting its own source of drones. But, yeah, the industry remains very important. The Turkish army is fairly battle tested in Syria and in northern Iraq and is a large army after the United States. It may be the most effective army in NATO. And so it's quite important from the European standpoint, with the Americans in question, to be able to make sure that Turkey doesn't become too close to Russia and that Turkey's support can be counted on at least a balance against Russia in places like Syria and Ukraine. And that would probably be in question if they took on Turkey's domestic democracy. Questions at the moment.
- [81:33]
Tommy Vitor
What do you think we should know about Ekrem Imamolu and the CHP party? What do they stand for? What's their political worldview?
- [81:41]
Ben Rhodes
Well, the CHP party is a longtime Turkish party. It ruled for quite some time. It's probably, you would probably consider it a sort of slightly center left party, like a social Democratic party. Imamolu has been a very interesting politician the last several years. He survived a lot of struggles with Erdogan. He's been threatened with jail many times. The first time he won the election for mayor of Istanbul, I think, was in 2016. The election was invalidated and he had to run again on completely false pretenses. And he then won by an even greater margin the second time. So he's a real survivor. He's a very impressive politician, a lot of charisma, and he's finally someone that you feel like could beat Erdogan in a presidential election. He's been able to reach out to the nationalists, to the Kurds. He's seen as sufficiently pious to appeal to some of the people in Erdogan's base. And he runs the city of Istanbul, which is a city of 16 million people and importantly, the base that Erdogan used as mayor of Istanbul back in the 1990s. To become prime minister and then president. So he's a very dangerous politician from Erdogan's standpoint.
- [83:07]
Tommy Vitor
Yeah. Okay. As I promised, I'm going to hop around the continent a bit here. So Romania has been going through it the last several months. The Romanian Constitutional Court annulled the presidential election after the first round of voting back in December. There were two candidates. There's a center right politician, then a far right independent named Colleen Georgescu, who rose from seemingly from obscurity quite quickly to win the first round. The court then decided that Russia interference in the election was so egregious that they had to annul the results of the first round and postpone the election. They've rescheduled the election for May, I believe, but it barred Georgescu from running. And I guess the similar question, which is, you know, how do you think Romania is balancing efforts to combat foreign interference in their election, specifically Russian interference, while remaining a democracy that allows free and fair elections if they're going to just bar candidates?
- [84:02]
Ben Rhodes
Yeah, not. Well, I mean, I'm a little bit loathe to agree with J.D. vance on this, or almost anything, but I think that there's a certain point here that Romania, for all of its pro Americanism and for all of its commitment to the Western camp, isn't a very mature democracy and has big problems with corruption and with democracy. And what you're seeing here, this idea that Russian interference was the cause of this rather obscure, frankly quite nutty politician getting 23% of the vote in the first round of the election is a little bit difficult to stomach. Of course, the Russians, they interfere everywhere, but they're not actually that good at it. And it's not really clear that it makes that much of a difference. The idea here was that somehow their amplification on TikTok made the difference in the election when most of Jogescu's voters were older people who probably couldn't even find TikTok on their phone.
- [85:06]
Tommy Vitor
Interesting.
- [85:07]
Ben Rhodes
So I don't exactly believe it. I think that what we're seeing here is a real challenge to democracy is this idea that people are really pissed off about the system, whatever the hell that is. They feel like there's an elite that is sort of is somewhat corrupt and is holding on to power through these elections and is rigging the system against them. And they're not totally wrong, particularly in a place like Romania. But, you know, you can see symptoms of this, elements of this, even in the United States. So. So I think people are pretty pissed off about that. That and the Romanian attempt to sort of say, well, this is the Russ, you know, we have to get our candidate in and the courts are going to take care of it for us. Can't be improving people's moods. I mean, I would note that he got 23% in the first round of the. Of the election in December, but when he was excluded from the. From the new election last week, he was polling at over 50%, which does give you some sense that maybe it's his very exclusion, it's the very way in which they're telling people that this guy, who really is a lunatic, I mean, he is not somebody you would ever want to be president. And in my view, might have been a better idea to let him run and expose that than to make him into a sort of political martyr, which is what they've done. I think there are some lessons there for everybody else. A lot of countries are struggling with this, and it's very tempting to sort of say, well, this is outside the pale. This is a foreign government interfering. We can't let these people run. We can't let these people in front of the people. If you think about it, that betrays a certain lack of confidence in democracy, which might be justified, but it's quite sad, and it's not really clear that it can persist.
- [87:09]
Tommy Vitor
Yeah. And it certainly seems like it had a bit of a political Streisand effect and helped boost him in ways that maybe running would not have.
- [87:16]
Ben Rhodes
I think that's the idea of a political Streisand effect.
- [87:19]
Tommy Vitor
Yeah. You know, well, Barbara's in politics, you know, over here as well, so maybe she would get in on this. Let's talk about my buddy, our buddy, Viktor Orban. We talk often about Hungary on the show and how the American right wing views Orban as a model for how to crush dissent, essentially, in Trump's second term. There is now some interesting reporting about how Orban seems to be cracking down even harder. You know, he feels like the kind of boot is off his neck from the Americans in particular. He's going after the LGBT community, he's going after Pride events. What are you seeing in Hungary and how do you think it's impacted by Trump's election?
- [87:57]
Ben Rhodes
Yeah, I think that that's right. You definitely see an uptick in Orban's rhetoric and an attempt to move sort of further down the authoritarian ladder. And it's not just the American boot that's been removed. It's his sense that because he has support in Washington, he will be less constrained by Brussels, and I think a very important and frightening relationship has formed between the Trump administration and Viktor Orban's regime, in which they really can help each other with their respective problems. So the rumor in Brussels is that the Trump people called up Orban and are telling him how to vote on, for example, EU sanctions against Russia, and they wanted them, in this case, to continue. But if they have to vote on that every six months, if six months from now the Americans decide that they don't want EU sanctions to continue, they can just call their buddy Victor and he can get it done for them, regardless of what the other 26 countries think. Meanwhile, the Americans are quite helpful in protecting Orban from pushback by the European Union or by anybody else. And just the sense in Hungarian or European politics that you have support from the White House means that you can. You can be freer. So he's now calling his opponents insects, and he's really upped the rhetoric in a way which Hungarian democracy was already in trouble. I think it's in significantly more trouble now. It's a sort of familiar story across the three. They each have their particularities, but across the three countries we've talked about, we're seeing some backsliding in all of them.
- [89:48]
Tommy Vitor
Yeah. I mean, you are hearing some European leaders say, well, we got to just kick Orban out. We got to kick Hungary out of the eu. Is there any momentum there?
- [89:57]
Ben Rhodes
No, I don't think so. There's also no mechanism for that.
- [90:01]
Tommy Vitor
Right.
- [90:02]
Ben Rhodes
And it would be a real admission of defeat. One of the things that they're doing right now is they're calling for sort of decisions at 26. There are 27 members of the EU, and. And it's true that particularly on issues like Ukraine, they do have. Hungary stands out. It's an outlier, particularly on Ukraine. But on a bunch of European Union issues, and they've kind of come up with a procedure where they issue conclusions at 26, and they sort of ignore the raving lunatic in the corner of the room. And they can do that for more things than you would think, because the European Union does operate by some norms. But the. But on the key votes that require unanimity, such as the sanctions vote I mentioned earlier, they can't do that. And I think that they're, in particular, because of Trump taking power, they're losing leverage over. Over Orban rather than gaining it.
- [91:01]
Tommy Vitor
Yeah. Speaking of the impact of Trump, I mean, the Germans recently made some changes in terms of how they manage their debt. This will allow them to spend domestically to stimulate the economy, but also invest a lot in their own defense capabilities. Can you just give us like the, the quick and dirty on the. I think it's the so called debt break change and how meaningful you think it will be for NATO and European defense capabilities generally to have this reinvigorated German military.
- [91:31]
Ben Rhodes
Yeah, you know, it has the possibility to be a really big, a really big deal. The Germans are interesting. They're the country that has a tremendous amount of what they call fiscal space in Europe because they've been very German over the years, very prudent in their spending. They have a debt to GDP ratio of roughly 30, 35%, which is the American one is 90. The European Union guideline is 60 and most countries exceed it. And they have a spectacular credit rating. So basically they can borrow practically unlimited funds at very low interest rates. And they haven't taken advantage of that in recent years because they've become arguably too German. So I think the fear of American abandonment and the, and the increasing sense of threat from Russia as well as frankly fears of loss of German competitiveness because they haven't really been mobilizing much public investment in the last decade. And I just came back from living in Germany for a little over two years and it's not dissimilar from the United States, but you can feel a lot of stuff sort of falling apart. So they have finally decided they had what was called a debt break, as you mentioned, which was a constitutional provision which limited their ability to run deficits. They threw a very complicated parliamentary maneuver, mostly got rid of that debt break and pushed what appears to be about 500 billion euros, at least in the initial phase, to both defense spending and investment. And then they had to bribe the Green party with 100 billion in spending on climate change issues. This is an enormous amount of money by any standard. If they really spend it, and if they spend it wisely on infrastructure and wisely on good defense investments, it could completely change German power. But that wisely adverb is a difficult one for them to meet. They did a sort of mini one of these right after the Russian invasion where they said they were going to spend 100 billion euros. I think they by and large did spend it, but they didn't spend it very well and it didn't make much difference. So. So the issue is not over. But this is an impressive move, particularly from a leader who hasn't even taken office yet. And we should be watching it very carefully.
- [94:29]
Tommy Vitor
Yeah, it was quite impressive politics. I mean, I guess there's Also the question of where they're going to spend this money. There's been a bunch of reporting on how Europe wants to wean itself off of American weapons and weapons systems. My understanding is that, you know, I think that's a little easier said than done because you're often talking about, like, complicated interoperable systems like, you know, radar and missile defense, or systems that need constant maintenance, like the F35 that you mentioned earlier. How realistic do you think it is for Europe to wean itself off of the U.S. you know, military industrial complex?
- [95:06]
Ben Rhodes
Yeah, well, wean is the right term. I mean, there are lots of alternatives. There's a lot of possibility to build up defense industrial base in Germany and in other European countries. There are lots of other, even buyers to buy from. I think it's very important for them to make that choice. You're right that it won't be something you do overnight. It's the work of 10 years, probably, but it's certainly doable. It's just that the big thing is you have to decide to do it. And right now, the Germans are still debating amongst themselves whether this spending is to replace the Americans or to entice the Americans to stay. Because actually, in theory, both things require money. Right. Trump is saying, we need you to spend more or we're not going to defend you. And so the idea there is, well, let's spend more and then he'll stay. Or alternatively, he could be leaving and then you'd have to say, well, we need to spend money because there's nobody there. But both of those things require this type of spending program. But they dictate very different ways that you spend it. And that's, I think, the key thing to be looking at. If the Germans make concerted efforts, again, slow, gradual weaning efforts to start to reinvigorate there and the European defense industrial base and to move away from American weapons, then you'll understand that they are trying to substitute for the Americans. But if they just keep buying F35s, and frankly, if you have 500 billion to waste, there's no better way to waste it than on the F35, then we'll know that what they're trying to do basically is bribe America to keep defending them. And I think that would be a very bad idea for both sides.
- [96:58]
Tommy Vitor
Yeah. Somewhere a generation of acquisition folks at the Pentagon is nodding along with you there. Final question for you. Giorgia Meloni, the prime Minister of Italy, has been an interesting character to watch when she was elected. You know, there was all these ties about kind of being like ties to Mussolini or being a Mussolini fan. She seemed like a traditional far right populist who would demagogue migration and go along that sort of well worn path. But she's also been very pro Ukraine. She's kind of given the finger to the Trump administration or Elon Musk a couple times. She's just sort of like played an interesting, done an interesting political dance. And I wonder what you make of her and the position she's sort of taken on the world stage.
- [97:45]
Ben Rhodes
Yeah, look, I agree that she's fascinating and you know, to be honest with you, I think she is more or less a traditional populist, certainly when it comes to her immigration stance and when it comes to her anti elite message and when it comes to her basic nationalism. But I think what she is above all is a very, very impressive politician. And I think when you're prime minister of Italy, you have to balance a whole bunch of different considerations. And I think what we're seeing in Giorgio Meloni is not that someone who seemed to be a populist wasn't, but that power socializes you. And that actually, and this is maybe a lesson for the Romanians or somebody else, is that middle sized European countries can't do everything they want. They have to deal with the European Union, they have to deal with the United States, they have to deal with a population that once you're in power isn't just interested in, in whether you like Russia or not, they're interested in you delivering the goods. And liking Russia is not a way of delivering the goods economically. For that, if you're an Italian politician, you have to have a good relationship with the European Union, you have to have a good relationship with the United States. And so she has, I think, been quite deft in being able to stay true in a basic way to her populist roots, but also govern the country in a way that can conceivably deliver the goods. And that's moderated her from the standpoint of liberals in Europe and in the United States. I don't think she's exactly any different than she ever was. But I think she is finding that it's very easy to run as a populist. It's a lot harder to govern as a populist. We're seeing this everywhere across the world, right? Populists don't really have governing programs, they have opposition programs. What she has done is demonstrate how you can change from an oppositional populace to a governing populist. And that does. That's a little bit comforting, actually. Amongst all the bad news stories we've.
- [100:02]
Tommy Vitor
Been talking about, and there are a lot of them, including here domestically, a lot of bad news. Jeremy, thank you so much for just hopping around the continent with me.
- [100:11]
Ben Rhodes
This has been a trip.
- [100:13]
Tommy Vitor
Yeah, maybe next time. Yeah, we'll go to some nicer spots. Maybe we can just park in Paris with Macron. Maybe we build an international peacekeeping force on Monday.
- [100:21]
Ben Rhodes
I feel like if we'd done this from a cafe in Rome, it would have been better.
- [100:26]
Tommy Vitor
Listen, I don't know where you're located currently, but tell me when and where and I'll be there.
- [100:30]
Ben Rhodes
Excellent. Thanks for doing this. It was fun.
- [100:37]
Tommy Vitor
Thanks again to Jeremy Shapiro for doing the show and talk to you guys soon. Positive World is a Crooked Media production. Our senior producer is Alona Minkowski. Our associate producer is Michael Goldsmith. Our executive producers are me, Tommy Vitor and Ben Rhodes. Say hi, Ben.
- [100:55]
Jeremy Shapiro
Hi.
- [100:57]
Tommy Vitor
The show is mixed and edited by Andrew Chadwick. Jordan Kanner is our audio engineer. Audio support by Kyle Seglin and Charlotte Landis thanks to our digital team, Ben Hethcoat, Mia Kelman, William Jones, David toles and Molly LaBelle. Madeline Herringer is our head of news and programming. Matt de Groat is our head of production. If you want to get ad free episodes, exclusive content and more, consider joining our Friends of the Pod subscription community@crooked.com friends. Don't forget to follow us at Crooked Media on Instagram, TikTok and Twitter for more original content, host takeovers and other community events. Plus, find Pod say the Word World on YouTube for access to full episodes, bonus content and more. If you're as opinionated as we are, please consider dropping us a review. Our production staff is proudly unionized with the Writers Guild of America East. Feeling stressed? Let's talk about a simple yet powerful way to boost your mental health. Walking April 2 is national walking Day, and it's the perfect time to start a new walking routine. The American Heart association says even a brisk walk can reduce stress and improve your mood.
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Unknown Speaker
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Tommy Vitor
Or even take a conference call. On the go, learn more and get heart healthy tips and recipes straight to.
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Tommy Vitor
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