Ben Rhodes (2:11)

Yeah, it's like having some extra gifts, you know, somewhere under the bed or in the garage that you just, you realize you forgot a birthday or something. You Just take them out. See, I did get you something.

Tommy Vitor (2:23)

I got you a book. My book?

Ben Rhodes (2:24)

Yeah. I got you a Fentanyl Czar. You know, have you read after the Fall?

Tommy Vitor (2:27)

Yeah.

Ben Rhodes (2:27)

Have you read? Yeah, but I mean, it is just the absurdity of these being wholly designed for American news cycles and not the world that we actually live in. Shane Baume seems to understand, too, that she can kick the shit out of Trump in her own media, in her own language, and I guess they're not speaking Spanish in the White House because then he praises her every time he talks about her. So she may be setting an example for how you deal with things.

Tommy Vitor (2:54)

Yeah, she's smart. She's fighting back. Punching back. I don't think the Justin Trudeau fly to Mar a Lago get slapped around and call the 51st state approach was as effective.

Ben Rhodes (3:04)

I did like their red state focused.

Tommy Vitor (3:07)

That was smart.

Ben Rhodes (3:08)

That was smart.

Tommy Vitor (3:09)

And they're going to tear off a bunch of, like, you know, Kentucky whiskey things that come from red states.

Ben Rhodes (3:13)

It wasn't just enjoyable to me. I actually thought that was a smart strategy. So the people are adjusting to this, but, I mean, look, the trade war will be back. I mean, I think what we've learned is that anything any other country does that he doesn't like, he's just going to threaten tariffs. And we're just going to live with that.

Tommy Vitor (3:28)

Yeah, he's got, like, one card in the deck. It is frustrating, though, because as we just discussed, Trump got nothing really substantively. Shame. Mom said she'd send some more troops to the border. They're already there. It's not going to happen.

Ben Rhodes (3:38)

They do that periodically.

Tommy Vitor (3:39)

Troops will, like, do fentanyl checks anyway. It's hard to detect. It's compact. Yeah. The Canadians named the Fentanyl czar. I think I read that, like, 70 pounds of fentanyl was seized at the northern border over three years, as opposed to 70,000 at the southern border. So it's just not really the issue up there.

Ben Rhodes (3:56)

It's literally a weight that I could carry.

Tommy Vitor (3:58)

Yeah, like a rucksack.

Ben Rhodes (3:59)

That's not exactly a national security crisis.

Tommy Vitor (4:02)

No. But Trump did decide to impose 10% tariffs on Chinese exports to the U.S. china announced some retaliatory tariffs. American coal and LNG is going to get hit with like 15% tariffs, 10% on some other stuff like crude oil and ag machinery. China will take some other things. I think that. I guess we'll see what happens there. And also, everyone in Europe is wondering whether tariffs on the EU are next. So Stay tuned.

Ben Rhodes (4:29)

It seems to be. I mean, he was threatening it. I mean, I think that the main thing we're going to watch is while American consumers of political news live in 24 hour cycles, the four year cycle is going to be one in which the entire world reorients its systems of trade and economics away from the United States. As if we're like the insane drunk in the corner of the party and nobody wants to necessarily go up and fight that person. But they definitely move to the other side of the room. And the Chinese think that they can just stand on the other side of the room and have people come to them. And they're probably right about that.

Tommy Vitor (5:01)

They're probably right.

Ben Rhodes (5:02)

Not that I've ever been that drunk guy in the room.

Tommy Vitor (5:05)

Have I been that drunk? Yes.

Ben Rhodes (5:08)

Don't remember that I have. But I've never threatened tariffs while I was drunk.

Tommy Vitor (5:12)

Maybe you start tariffing people. Okay, well we have a.

Ben Rhodes (5:15)

By the way, this is a good point to re air my theory that presidents who don't drink any alcohol are weird. Seem to be weird. You know, George Bush started a war. Joe Biden ran for reelection. You know, maybe it's okay to have a glass of wine when you're president.

Tommy Vitor (5:31)

Have a drink, get a dog. It's only gonna help you. We have a very Trump heavy show today. We're not happy about it.

Ben Rhodes (5:37)

It's not what it is, people. It is what it is.

Tommy Vitor (5:39)

Yeah, there's some really big important stuff happening in US foreign policy that is gonna impact the world that we're gonna dig into. Uh, we're going to start with Trump's attempt to use Elon Musk and the DOGE nerds to shut down the US Agency for International Development or usaid. We're going to look at the purge happening in the FBI. Nothing ominous about that, Ben. Then we'll cover Secretary of State Marco Rubio's first trip to Latin America. Any truly awful idea that emerged from his time in El Salvador. We'll also explain why Gitmo's back in the news. Will tell you about a surprising choice to lead State Departments public diplomacy efforts. And then finally, Israeli Prime Minister Bibi NETanyahu is in D.C. today. He is meeting with Trump in a few minutes. We're recording the first half of this show before that meeting happens. So we can. For timing reasons. But we'll cover whatever comes out of it after the show. Including there's some. Trump just signed an executive order going back to his old Iran strategy of maximum pressure. So great. Yeah, that'll solve it.

Ben Rhodes (6:40)

Yeah.

Tommy Vitor (6:40)

And then, Ben, you did our interview today. Who did you talk to?

Ben Rhodes (6:42)

Yeah, I talked to Yusra El Bagir, who is the Africa correspondent for Sky News. Yusra was was in Goma in the Democratic Republic of Congo recently covering the M23 advance into the DRC. So she breaks down kind of what's happening, why it's happening now. Importantly for people, what are the resources at stake? Who's buying those resources? Spoiler alert. It's some of the same Western governments that usually criticize things like what's happening in the drc, what it's like to cover such a multifaceted conflict, what happened to the Congolese state. And then also importantly, what's on the minds of the people that Yusra talked to Ngoma and kind of what is just wrong with how the Western government and philanthropic community has approached Africa? The DRC is kind of emblematic of all those things. So really interesting interview about the DRC and what's happening there, but also just about what it says about how the kind of world is working in 2025, which is a kind of late stage capitalist nightmare that we've been living.

Tommy Vitor (7:53)

I'll definitely check that out.

Ben Rhodes (7:54)

We covered a lot there. Yeah.

Tommy Vitor (7:55)

Also Yusra's sister Nima is another great journalist who's been on the show.

Ben Rhodes (7:59)

Yeah. And you know, she's Sudanese by heritage and just really extraordinary reporters. So a reminder that, you know, apart from the, you know, tech bro, multifaceted experts on X, there are actual journalists in the world who can tell you what's going on. So please follow people like Yusra and her sister and not, you know, some guy that was the 19th investor at PayPal.

Tommy Vitor (8:26)

Well said. Okay, so let's talk about USAID. We are now a couple weeks into Trump's 90 day freeze on foreign assistance. The impact of that move has now been compounded by Elon Musk's announcement that he's going to shut down the USAID or merge USAID with the State Department. Secretary of Defense, Secretary of State, Secretary General Marco Rubio, I think we're going to call him that now announced that he is the new acting administrator of USAID and that the agency is now under Rubio's purview. On Monday, a bunch of Democrats held a press conference outside of the USAID building and later tried to enter it. Elon Musk tweeted that that was an insurrection. Kind of funny.

Ben Rhodes (9:06)

Here's a clip of Jamie Raskin, the shaman.

Tommy Vitor (9:11)

Here's a clip of Connecticut Senator Chris Murphy talking about why shuttering USAID is so damaging.

Chris Murphy (9:17)

Elon Musk has been floating all sorts of awful, terrible conspiracy theories about what happens at usaid. Let's make it very clear that every single day America is safer because of what happens at usaid. USAID fights terrorist groups all across this world, making sure that we address the underlying causes for a retreat to terrorism. USAID chases China all around the world, making sure that China doesn't monopolize contracts for critical minerals and port infrastructure all around the world. It supports freedom fighters everywhere in this world up until yesterday delivering firewood, for instance, to the brave Ukrainian defenders on the Eastern front. But let's not pull any punches about why this is happening. Elon Musk makes billions of dollars based off of his business with China, and China is cheering at this action today.

Tommy Vitor (10:31)

Murphy later stormed the USAID building and took a dump on the assistant administrator's desk. That's a joke. I do like that Murphy's trying to find the why here, kind of create an enemy. I do think that's important, but, you know, we'll see. So Ben, a bunch of USAID staffers were told not to come to the office in dc. Their emails were frozen all over the world. And then Elon Musk, of course, Ben, took to Twitter to start attacking USAID as a criminal organization. I think he said it was run by radical Marxists. Trump got in on the fun. He said that USAID was run by radical lunatics. A little twist on the. On the unfair allegations. And then Elon staff, I guess, tried to storm into a secure facility and access classified information without a clearance. So it's a mess. For those unfamiliar with usaid, it's an independent agency that was first set up in 1961 under the Kennedy administration and has become a critical source of global humanitarian funding that ranges from disaster assistance to global health programs like HIV AIDS treatment or monitoring and responding to disease outbreaks like Ebola or the bird flu, like very important stuff. In 2023, USAID managed about $40 billion that was appropriated by Congress for programs in 130 countries. That is a lot of money, but less than 1% of the federal budget. And it tends to be well under the 0.7% of Gross national production target that a lot of wealthy countries use for their international assistance target. So the Post, Washington Post said the top rec of USAID funding include Ukraine, Ethiopia, Jordan, the Democratic Republic of Congo, and Somalia. And just for what it's worth, this attempt to unilaterally close or fold USAID into state is illegal because it's an independent agency, and you can't do that. Congress would have to. Senator Brian Schatz of Hawaii has announced that he's going to put a blanket hold on all of Trump's State Department nominees until this attack on USAID ends, which could take a while. So, Ben, why don't we just pause there? Like, can you just talk about, in your opinion, eight years working in the administration, what the value of USAID was, both, I don't know, in terms of the development assistance in these programs, but also the value to U.S. national security and our ability to advance U.S. interests or values abroad.

Ben Rhodes (12:40)

Yeah, I mean, we talked about this a bit last week, so I don't want to cover exactly the same ground. The short version is usaid. Those countries point to what their priorities are. They overlap significantly with American national security interests. You know, they're in Ukraine, buttressing the Ukrainian state. They're in Somalia as part of the counter Al Shabaab strategy, a terrorist organization that had aspirations to strike in the United States. You know, they've been in Iraq and Syria as part of the counter ISIS mission. If you don't want Ebola to come to the United States, I do not. You know, you need USAID personnel on the ground helping create clinics and supporting healthcare workers to stop epidemics before they get here. All these things are true in the way that Chris Murphy framed them, are absolutely true. And if we withdraw from that business, we will be more endangered by terrorists and by disease. We will certainly basically allow China to kind of run the international finance and development aspects of the world order. They've been building that, preparing for this moment for some time, with a parallel, an alternative set of institutions, including the Belt Road Initiative, which we've talked about a bit, which is entirely a development focused initiative of bringing Chinese infrastructure, infrastructure and kind of tying the world into supply chains that run to Beijing. So on its face, it's stupid because it disadvantages the United States in not being in those places and not addressing those issues. I think more profoundly, though, I've been thinking about this, Tommy, it almost depresses me that we have to give the kind of speeches that Chris Murphy gave or that I've said on this podcast in other places about why you should care. We should care because we should care. We should care because we should give a shit that this is the institution that helps end famines or that goes to places where there's a genocide, there's something wrong with our country that we even think that we have to kind of go tell people, here's why this helps fight terrorism. I mean, I get why we should. We have to become the kind of country that wouldn't necessarily even need to kind of make these kind of bank shot arguments, but that is also in our national interest because the rest of the world is looking at us and saying those people clearly don't give a shit. And everything we've ever said that we were taught as kids about America standing for certain things in the world. The whole moral high ground that America tries to claim in every single dispute in the world with a Russia or China goes out the door. When you've got a bunch of fucking gamer incel 20 year old doge dudes like marauding through the headquarters of the USAID in the Ronald Reagan Federal building in Washington D.C. the rest of the world looks at us and thinks this has now become a country of elon obsessed kids who didn't have friends in high school and are going to just take it out on the rest of the world. And that to me there's something more fundamental. You kind of COVID what's happening on the surface of Trump. What does it mean about us as a country that this is just something that is happening in this country. And I think the rest of the world is gonna look at that and they're gonna draw their own conclusions. And their own conclusions are not gonna be like, yes, doge intern, go stick it to the people that save lives around the world.

Tommy Vitor (16:06)

I know, I'm torn here too. Look, the half of my brain is the guy who does this show on Tuesday and who's read the long ProPublica piece about USAID cuts in Sudan and development workers who are having to decide whether to do what they were told by the US government and let babies die or lose their jobs and keep treating those babies for as long as they can. And I think that is profound and important and the kind of story that will actually move people. And the other half of my brain, does pot save America on Monday? And reads a bunch of polling and knows it. Americans think Dan Pfeiffer's in your ear. Yeah, Dan Pfeiffer's screaming at me. It's 2009 all over again and you and I are trying to get some comment in a speech and, and knows that Americans don't want to send money overseas for programs or any little incidents of waste or fraud or abuse is going to get lifted up and amplified. Right. Like Republicans are already out there trying to suggest that, you know, USAID money went to either their two kind of frames are either USAID is responsible for Covid existing or. Or that it just spawns like, you know, trans operas in, you know, various countries or whatever thing they think is sort of frivolous sounding. And I'm like, I mean, that's a literal. That's like an actual.

Ben Rhodes (17:16)

Is that a thing?

Tommy Vitor (17:16)

Yeah, I'm pretty sure.

Ben Rhodes (17:17)

I can't wait for that. Yeah.

Tommy Vitor (17:19)

The White House press secretary read it out and like, I don't know what the truth is, and it's so frustrating. And I think this, this stuff matters. But I also, like, I also remember the day after the Haiti earthquake, they sent. In 2011, they sent me over to USAID to kind of try to help manage things. And it took 10 hours and we couldn't get emails sent up for me and I had to come out. So I know there's bureaucracy and things don't always work perfectly and it can be a mess, but it's still important. You know, it's like a baby. Don't throw the baby with the bathwater situation. And figuring out how to fight this politically is hard.

Ben Rhodes (17:48)

I know. I mean, and look, let me try to square this circle, cuz, you know, you guys, I'm sure, are right on pots of America, that if I were to ask for the first rally at the first government agency shut down by Elon Musk and Donald Trump, you'd probably send people to the Consumer Financial Protection Bureau because that hits people's pocketbooks. Right. But I think you can do both at the same time because I do think you can offer people a values proposition that goes above the trans operas and the Hamas condoms or whatever.

Tommy Vitor (18:22)

Yeah, that's just made up, right?

Ben Rhodes (18:23)

Yeah, yeah. To the point that it's interesting. We've all kind of gone back and boned up on our UCID. This was started in 1961, so I got it wrong.

Tommy Vitor (18:32)

It was a DEI musical in Ireland. Okay. There was some other thing confusing it with. But like, you know, this. I'm sorry, there was. Apparently it was a trans opera in Columbia. Anyway, we have no idea if this is real, but this is what the Republicans are gonna say.

Ben Rhodes (18:44)

USAID does, but they want, they want a small debate and maybe we should have a bigger debate. You know, they want the debate to be about very small things like these programs. And we somehow think we win these debates when we prove that they're lying about the programs, when there should be a bigger point about like, what is this country and what does it stand for? It's interesting to me that USAID was founded in 61. That was the height of the Kennedy.

Tommy Vitor (19:06)

Height of the Cold War.

Ben Rhodes (19:07)

Yeah, that was John F. Kennedy. Ask not what your country can do for you, ask what you can do for your country. We need to be in all these places. He started the Peace Corps, and people were really proud to be American at that time. They felt better about being America when we were creating USAID than I think people feel about America today. That is being destroyed. Right. And so I think there's a way to try to go above the. Certainly the DEI opera or musical or whatever it is, but even above. And again, I think Chris Murphy's been the best Democrat since the Trump election. And I've said. Because I've said all the same shit he did. To even go above that and just be like, what kind of country are we? You really want to be a country that doesn't care if there's a famine somewhere and does nothing about it? And you know what? The short term answer may be yes, but I think we have to change, you know?

Tommy Vitor (20:01)

Yeah. If you don't make the argument, you don't convince anyone. Well, can I play for you a counterpoint then? Marco Rubio did a press conference where he actually blamed the aid groups for the confusion. Let's listen to that.

Ben Rhodes (20:11)

I issued a blanket waiver that said, if this is life savings programs, okay, if it's providing food or medicine or anything that is saving lives and is immediate and urgent, you're not included in the freeze. I don't know how much more clear we can be than that. And I would say if some organization is receiving funds from the United States and does not know how to apply a waiver, then I have real questions about the competence of that organization. Or I wonder whether they're deliberately sabotaging it for purposes of making a political point.

Tommy Vitor (20:40)

Take that nurse providing ARVs to a child with HIV in Sudan. First of all, Marco showed you.

Ben Rhodes (20:50)

Yeah, he's lying. They did freeze life. I mean, landmines we talked about, Right.

Tommy Vitor (20:56)

They freeze this aid, then they walked it back, then they changed it again. They've created mass confusion.

Ben Rhodes (21:00)

And also, he doesn't even know. He probably had no idea that this was happening with the usaid. He probably found out he was in charge of USAID in a press release. I mean, that guy could not be further out of the loop.

Tommy Vitor (21:10)

I know, I know.

Ben Rhodes (21:12)

So it wouldn't surprise me if we're on this podcast, if you're just talking about Marco losing his security detail or something. I mean, there is to focus on what people's grievances have been with usaid. It's often been that there's some waste there because USAID does a lot of business with contractors. And so there's like a delta between the amount of money that is allocated and the amount of money that reaches people.

Tommy Vitor (21:38)

And there's overhead, too.

Ben Rhodes (21:39)

Yeah, and there's overhead. And Samantha Power spent a lot of time trying to kind of narrow that gap. That would be a worthy way of looking at this. There's also, it is a weird structure in the sense that you had the State Department, then USAID created its independent agency, then Republicans and mainly George Bush created pepfar, put it in the State created the Millennium Challenge Accounts, which is this kind of separate entity that administers grants to countries. But look, just part of what is happening here is Trump is trying to capture. You want to talk about Marxism? He's trying to capture the means of production for the government. He's trying to capture all the money that the government controls so that it kind of is answerable only to him and not to Congress. That's what this is really about, the consolidation of power. And that's, I think, what we have to keep our eye on.

Tommy Vitor (22:26)

Yeah, and I wanted to take this idea seriously, too, whether a USAID should be merged with State or part of State. And there's probably some people thinking, well, why doesn't that make more sense? Why wouldn't that be more efficient? Development assistance is key to our diplomacy. Coordinating better might entail being under the same roof. You could probably save some money. And the counter argument to this pitch to sort of merge USAID and State is that it's just easier said than done. And there's actually a precedent of this kind of merger that we can look at that did not go well, which was the merger of an agency called the U.S. information Agency, or USIA, into the State Department in 1999. So USIA, and you have a lot of expertise with this, Ben, you should talk about your global engagement. USIA was the leading public diplomacy element in the US Government throughout the Cold War. They promoted kind of the US Values and economic system, and it was apparently quite effective. And the advocates for the merger of USIA into the State Department said it would save money, improve coordination, make the agency more effective. But years later, I mean, I read this report from the Heritage foundation, which supports merging USAID into State, who said that this merger of USIA into the State Department was a disaster. And the reason was you have this agency that does public diplomacy that gets Picked apart. It gets put into different components of the State Department and it's never prioritized. You got like kind of orphan elements all over State that includes. And then you have State Department leaders picking whether to fund public diplomacy or the stuff they actually care about and know how to do. And obviously they're going to choose, you know, the thing that they're used to working on the, you know, funding for the ambassador versus public diplomacy. Monday it downgraded the leadership of public diplomacy. It, it took away a clear agency's purpose and kind of made it jammed it into the State Department and its culture, which is risk averse and slow and secretive and basically, long story short, hobbled this public diplomacy effort right before 911 when we really could have used it. So it's just, it's not as simple as it looks on like a McKinsey org chart.

Ben Rhodes (24:38)

That's exactly right. You summarized the USAIA piece perfectly, which is public diplomacy. And I tried on this for eight years, but it's just vastly deprioritized at State. You don't get ahead in your career by becoming a public diplomacy officer at State Department. There's always going to be a crisis or a government to government relationship that is going to command the attention of the Secretary of State and the senior leadership of the State Department more than some public diplomacy program. So you basically kind of created a stepchild that was never prioritized and therefore never did as well as anybody wanted. And every now and then great programs emerged or really innovative people emerged. But nobody would argue that the mission of public diplomacy was improved by that consolidation. And the same is true on usaid. You know, that's a different skill set. The ability to administer a foreign assistance program to surge resources into a conflict zone, to surge health resources into an epidemic zone. That's different than an ambassador going in to negotiate a bilateral relationship or learning.

Tommy Vitor (25:46)

Five languages to serve in Jordan.

Ben Rhodes (25:49)

Yeah, exactly. And there's another piece of it which is probably a harder political sell, but it's what I would always hear from the USAID people. When the State Department shows up, everybody thinks, well, they're just showing up because there's some political interest behind what they're advocating. Whereas USAID is supposed to be these people that show up with a different mission.

Tommy Vitor (26:10)

That's the brand we slap on stuff.

Ben Rhodes (26:12)

Yeah, we're here to give you food, we're here to end the famine. And yes, that accrues to the America's benefit in all the ways we talked about. But it was meant to be seen as a, you know, if a usaid. I don't know if we can say vaccines anymore now that RFK Jr. Is on the path to confirmation. But USAID did a lot of polio vaccination around the world, which has saved untold lives and been good for us too. Cause it's better to knock out these diseases if a State Department officer shows up to vaccinate you. It's different than like a healthcare worker with a box that has USAID on it, you know, and none of this really matters to the Doge gang, but. But it will transform how people interact with the US Government in lots of places.

Tommy Vitor (26:53)

Yeah, they don't care about this history. They don't care about the context.

Ben Rhodes (26:55)

They just.

Tommy Vitor (26:55)

I don't know. We're just AI in it all.

Ben Rhodes (26:57)

Yeah.

Tommy Vitor (27:06)

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Jon Stewart (28:36)

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Tommy Vitor (29:07)

But USAID is the only agency getting gutted here, Ben. There's lots of attorneys at doj, at the Department of Justice who worked on prosecutions at Trump who are being forced out. And last week, eight top executives at the FBI were fired. And then over the weekend, the FBI director told the acting FBI director told staff that the Trump administration is looking for the names of every single agent who worked on the January six investigations. And apparently thousands of FBI staffers were sent some sort of questionnaire or survey about their involvement in those investigations, despite the fact that those agents don't get to choose what they work on. They're just assigned things. All of this is happening before Trump's FBI director nominee, Cash Patel, has been confirmed. And on Tuesday, a group of nine FBI agents asked a federal judge to block these data collection efforts. But we'll see if that works. It's hard to read this stuff and not feel like we're kind of sliding it to the worst case autocratic police state nightmare.

Ben Rhodes (30:03)

Yeah, I mean, we're two weeks in here. And again, what are the most fundamental kind of, if you strip government down to its essence, what is the fundamental power of government? It's the monopoly on violence. That's the US Military that's now led by Pete Hegseth. It's a monopoly on justice. And that's the FBI and the DOJ about to be led by Kash Patel and Pam Bondi. And that's spending money. And we see, you know, that's Elon Musk Musk controlling all the payment system. So this is a part of a very tried and true autocratic playbook to seize and capture the most powerful organs of the state and use them for your own purposes. And it's not that unusual for a new president, for instance, to appoint new U.S. attorneys. But they're now FBI. These are cops. And, and it's not just that they're firing those people for things that those people probably didn't get to choose what case they're assigned to. It's a message that they're sending. If you want to get ahead in your career, you have to be fully with the program. So it's a deterrent effect, it's a messaging effect, as well as what it's done. And my question for you, Tommy, is this is what they do before Cash Patel gets ahead. Can you imagine what do you think is coming when. When our guy Cash is in there?

Tommy Vitor (31:22)

It's a little worrisome.

Ben Rhodes (31:24)

Yeah. May connect to our El Salvador conversation.

Tommy Vitor (31:27)

Yeah. I mean, boy, imagine if some FBI agent is listening in on a bad actor and picks up some information about a bribe being given to a Trump administration person. Do you think they're gonna pursue that?

Ben Rhodes (31:38)

That's exactly the point about this deterrent effect, right?

Tommy Vitor (31:40)

Not at all.

Ben Rhodes (31:40)

Yeah. If you fired everybody who was involved in any Trump investigation, you're saying if. If Elon Musk is like, robbing a bank, literally, you probably are not gonna be the guy to go arrest him because, you know that's the end of your career.

Tommy Vitor (31:55)

You'll get doged. Good stuff.

Ben Rhodes (31:57)

Just for the lawyers. Like, he's not currently robbing a bank. That's a hypothetical.

Tommy Vitor (32:01)

Yeah. Hypothetically, if he were to rob a bank via the new treasury account access.

Ben Rhodes (32:06)

He has, maybe he doesn't need to rob a bank.

Tommy Vitor (32:09)

Fucking Treasury.

Ben Rhodes (32:09)

Venmo, he could mint that trillion dollar coin.

Tommy Vitor (32:12)

Okay, so in other parts of the government, Rubio took his first overseas trip. He went to Panama, El Salvador, Costa Rica, Guatemala, and the Dominican Republic. Rubio's focus so far seems to be on immigration and then belligerent Woodrow Wilson era imperialism. The first stop was Panama. There, Rubio repeated Trump's attacks about the Panama Canal. Rubio's comments, he was demanding quite immediate changes to push back on Chinese, quote, influence control over the Panama Canal. That was covered as a threat by most Western media outlets, correctly, in my view. But Panamanian President Jose Raul Molino just kind of brushed them off, saying he didn't view Rubio's comments as a threat and downplayed the concern about the U. S. Taking back control of the Panama Canal through some sort of coercion. I asked one of our smart Latin America expert friends about the kind of disparity between this obviously being a threat and the president brushing it off. And this person told me, when Molino surrenders, he wants it to look like it wasn't at the point of a gun. So everyone's doing their politics here, but for those who care about the facts, Ben, the Chinese do not control the Panama Canal. It's administrated by a Panamanian entity called the Panama Canal Authority. But there's two ports at each end of the canal that are run by a Hong Kong based company called CK Hutchinson Holdings. And Rubio says Trump is worried that those ports could block the flow of ships through the Panama Canal if the Chinese went hard in a trade war. So that's the their stated thinking here. Then Rubio went to El Salvador to meet with the self described world's coolest dictator and bitcoin enthusiast, Naib Kale. Their meeting focused on immigration. As we discussed last week, I think the El Salvador has been floated as a destination for Trump to send migrants that he deports from the U.S. especially Venezuelans. But shit got weird when Bukele pitched a plan for the US to outsource part of our own prison system and send prisoners from the U.S. including American citizens, to El Salvador to be held in their mega prison industrial complex. Rubio called this offer, quote, an act of extraordinary friendship. And he said that, quote, no country has ever made an offer, a friendship such as this. Maybe there's a reason for that. Marco. Ben, I'd love to hear any thoughts you have on this Panama trip or any other part of Rubio's mission. You're overseas, but I do think we should spend some time on this El Salvador prison offer because it is nuts, but kick us off.

Ben Rhodes (34:39)

Yeah, I want to start with Panama because I saw the same thing, which is that the Rubio didn't say much in Panama himself. And it was like some State Department spokesperson, I think the State Department spokesperson who called him Little Marco maybe or something. Oh, really? I don't know. Some State Department spokesman issued the kind of threatening language and it reminded me I actually have interacted with Marco Rubio a number of times. And most of those interactions took place after I negotiated the cube opening that Marco Rubio absolutely hated. Right. And I remember going to meet with him the first time and having and thinking it would be this horrible meeting and he was going to yell at me or something. And we had a very pleasant conversation for a very long time. It was almost like an hour or something. And he was a personable guy. He asked questions, he made clear he didn't agree, but we were trying to find things that we could work together on. And then he goes out and absolutely blasts us. And actually he called me to give me a heads up when Trump did his first policy changes, which I thought was very nice. I mean, I was out of government And I actually.

Tommy Vitor (35:50)

That is very nice.

Ben Rhodes (35:52)

Surprisingly nice. I thought it was so nice that I said to him, hey, you know, like, if you ever need me, you know, obviously I have relationships in Cuba. If you ever. If there's. We need to send a message. Just, you know, I was just trying to think of something to say. Cause he'd had this gesture and then that appeared in like a Free Beacon or Breitbart story a couple hours later. The reason I'm telling these stories, Ben Rhodes offers to. And it was making fun of me and stuff. The reason I'm telling these stories is I would guess that Marco Rubio was not tough with the president of Panama. I would guess that he was very solicitous, very nice that that meeting was very calm. And then they go out and then have like some press officer issue the threat. This is the Marco Rubio that I would anticipate. I do not think that guy is tough in the room. I think he's super tough when his plane takes off. And, you know, that tells you all you need to know about just how much these guys are going to stand up to dictators and stuff like that.

Tommy Vitor (36:46)

Or Trump.

Ben Rhodes (36:46)

Yeah. And then the El Salvador thing. We've covered Bukele. These prisons are, you know, human rights organizations have reported mass kind of indiscriminate detentions. There's been allegations of torture and disappearances. He's basically set up this kind of gulag system to deal with security challenges, but also to kind of consolidate power. And the idea, I mean, again, only in 2025 has the world changed to the point that it's a positive to meet with a dictator and to then celebrate as a gesture of magnanimity that the dictator will offer to imprison Americans in their so crazy destitute prisons. I mean, it's so crazy that this is like a normal thing that would happen in 2025. But you know, Marco Rubio used to criticize dictators. I guess not if they are the world's coolest of them.

Tommy Vitor (37:41)

Yeah. Earlier today I said, and if they.

Ben Rhodes (37:43)

Speak at cpac, Right.

Tommy Vitor (37:45)

If you're a bitcoin dictator with a backwards hat. Earlier today I talked to the guy named Noah Bullock, who is the El Salvador executive director of a human rights organization called Christosol. Noah, by the way, was my next door neighbor from when I was 1 until maybe 4 years old. His older sister was my best friend as a kid.

Ben Rhodes (38:03)

No way.

Tommy Vitor (38:03)

Their father was the Episcopal minister at our church. And then he got like reassigned and they moved to New York. So I never saw them again, but it was like my literally best friend. And this guy we're talking from El Salvador. It's crazy. Smallest of small world things, but he was just. He was telling me. I mean, I'd read about it, but hearing him describe the scale of the mass incarceration operations in El Salvador really is unbelievable. I mean, I think roughly 2% of the total population of the country is currently in jail. A lot of them were imprisoned after Bukele declared what he called a state of exception, which meant he suspended a whole lot of constitutional rights. So in practice, what you have, as you mentioned, is the mass roundup of young men. Their show, arrest for the cameras, and they're thrown in jail without being charged for anything. Maybe sometimes years at a time. When they are charged, it's almost always for association with a group, not for an actual crime. You're just associated with a gang in some way. You have no access to defense attorneys. And it seems like what they think might come next is mass trials of hundreds, if not a thousand, two thousand people at a time. So on top of that, as you mentioned, there's systematic torture in these prisons. People are being. No one's talking about rehabilitation. You are in jail for life. So, like, big picture, Bukele is propping up this authoritarian state and, like, cult of personality built on the back of this mass incarceration effort. And he keeps arresting more and more people, like setting another target of another 10,000 or 20,000 and 30,000 without letting anyone out. So now he has to find a way to fund it. So the IMF is telling him, you have to make all these cuts. So he's cutting teachers, he's cutting hospital workers while expanding the military, but running to the US and saying, hey, for some cash, I'll take some of your prisoners. And just the idea of, like, sending American citizens, I don't care what they did, into a transnational gulag to prop up this bitcoin fucking dictator is insane. And I was asking him, I was like, well, isn't there, like, horrific violence within these prisons among the population? And he said, actually, the only silver lining of this is there's relatively little violence, but the reason is that they starve them. So people are too tired to harm each other. It is like, this could not be more fucked up.

Ben Rhodes (40:21)

I mean, again, the rest of the world, you know, we may think that this is, you know, Jewel Boyd, part of the Trump show, but the rest of the world is going to see America subsidizing and backing this kind of prison system. And look, I just think it's also a warning. Trump likes that system. Right. And we talked about the Lake and Riley bill, which a lot of Democrats voted for, in which there's no due process. And that's what you described that Bukele does, rolling people up by association. That's kind of how Trump talks about anyone who's an immigrant in this country. And so you can see a slippery slope here to people suddenly losing due process, to people suddenly finding them on planes, to prisons like that, people who are undocumented and not Salvadorian, who did nothing wrong, finding their way into one of Bukele's prisons, an American who maybe did do something wrong, but we didn't used to deport our own criminals to other countries finding their way there. So you have to see this both as the kind of scary thing that it is, but also even scarier as, like, indicative of the kind of system that Trump likes, you know, and for a Rubio, who again came in onto the scene as one of these kind of McCain light human rights, you know, defending hawks, what a comedown. His first trip to, you know, as Secretary of State, he's going to like El Salvador and praising, you know, gulags.

Tommy Vitor (41:51)

And a lot of the rejoinder you hear to criticisms of Bukele is that, well, he's the most popular leader in Latin America. And that is true. But you have to talk about the context through which that popularity arises, which is he controls all the media, he dominates social media. They've rounded up 86,000 people arbitrarily. And everyone knows you could be next. There's political prisoners. I mean, this is a lot like Putin's Russia. And so you'll see, you know, Bukele will have 80% approval in these polls, but 65% of the population is afraid to talk about politics. And those things are, those things are connected because no one, there's no other political party, like everyone is afraid to express an opinion that could lead to reprisal from the government.

Ben Rhodes (42:34)

And let's see where that popularity is in like five and 10 years, right? When a lot of people who've been put in prison wrongly have not been released. When the corruption sets in and the economy, people start to see the grift in it. There's a bit of a sugar high to rolling up every gang member, 10x innocent people, and it just seems like crime is down and thinking, well, my brother or sister or cousin who got arrested, although surely they'll be out soon because there must have been Some kind of mistake? Well, they're not getting out. And so I would expect that that popularity is not durable, but we'll see.

Tommy Vitor (43:09)

Yeah. And again, we're not trying to discount the importance of security. I mean, if your neighborhood went from filled with gangs in the streets, people getting shot, to relatively safe, I'm sure you're genuinely grateful and happy about that. The question is, how did that come about? Was it because Bukele cut a bunch of deals with these gangs to kind of hide what they're doing? Because there's a lot of allegations that that's what happened. And to your point, I mean, how this wears over 5, 10, 15 years when he's just locking more and more people up is a big question. We're going to take a quick break, Ben, but there's a lot of rage bait out there in the news right now. You might have noticed. Spent two overwhelm us, enrage us. So today we're going to focus on something a little more positive, which is the work being done to fight back. This month Vote Save America is making donations as part of their anxiety relief program to black led organizations and candidates of color helping us gain ground at the state and local level. Candidates like Janelle Bynum, Oregon's first Black congressmember who won her district by less than 12,000 votes in 2024 and is in a must win race that could determine whether Democrats can win back the House. Set up a recurring donation at any amount that feels right to you and Vote Save America will use it to build Progressive Power in 2025 and beyond. Go to votesaveamerica.com donate to donate now paid for by votesave america votesaveamerica.com not authorized by any candidate or candidates committee. Also if you're looking for like guidance for how to talk about this stuff, check out Dan Pfeiffer's message box. It's got great tight tips and summaries of what's going on in the world, what actually matters, how to think about it. I love message block. I read it every day or every day that it's out crooked.com yeswedan. You get a 30 day free trial, Ben.

Ben Rhodes (44:45)

All right. Yes, we Dan. Tommy. I have one plug here.

Tommy Vitor (44:48)

How's Oregon by the way?

Ben Rhodes (44:49)

Fantastic. Great crowds. Some worldos were there. People heard about it on the show so that was great. This week, continuing my strange tour, I'm going to your neck of the woods where you talk to some smack kids at Harvard.

Tommy Vitor (45:05)

Oh nice. What? What is it? Kennedy School.

Ben Rhodes (45:09)

This isn't just Kennedy School. This is, you know, it's for. It's at the psy auditorium at Harvard on Thursday afternoon. And then I'm doing. I am doing some stuff with some Kennedy School people too.

Tommy Vitor (45:20)

Cool.

Ben Rhodes (45:21)

And seeing. Catching up with some friends. So I'll be in Boston if anyone wants to come out there.

Tommy Vitor (45:25)

Well, you did pick the perfect time to go to Boston, which is February 6th.

Ben Rhodes (45:29)

Yeah. Yeah. I was thinking about getting I love to run on the river there. And I was kind of thinking that I probably will not. Let's actually look at this. This is some live podcasting.

Tommy Vitor (45:41)

My mom might go to this.

Ben Rhodes (45:42)

We'll see what the Boston weather is looking like. You know, it's only low in the 18 degrees.

Tommy Vitor (45:49)

18. That's.

Ben Rhodes (45:50)

That's not Los Angeles. Yeah, that's cool.

Tommy Vitor (45:52)

Are you doing like a Q and A or are you gonna give a speech?

Ben Rhodes (45:54)

Both. I'm gonna talk a little bit, answer some questions, hang out.

Tommy Vitor (45:57)

That'll be fun. Go, go see Ben. Bring him Boston things. Beans, chowder, Chowder and then psychedelics.

Ben Rhodes (46:07)

Yeah, anytime.

Tommy Vitor (46:09)

Bring your an edgy Irish cousin.

Ben Rhodes (46:12)

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Tommy Vitor (46:12)

What is more Boston?

Ben Rhodes (46:13)

Yeah. Your guy from Charlestown or something from the town?

Tommy Vitor (46:16)

Beat up the New York Mets fan.

Ben Rhodes (46:18)

We'll go knock off the Fenway park. This is for 86. How you like that map?

Tommy Vitor (46:22)

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Jon Stewart (47:48)

This podcast is supported by Comedy Central's Emmy award winning series the Daily Show. Jon Stewart and the Daily show news team are kicking off 2025 with brand new episodes covering a brand new administration and a not quite brand new president. While it may feel like we've all been here before, it's never been covered like this. With Jon Stewart behind the desk kicking off every week. Comedy Central's the Daily show new tonight at 11 on Comedy Central and streaming next day on Paramount.

Tommy Vitor (48:19)

Then speaking of transnational gulags, Gitmo's back in the news.

Ben Rhodes (48:24)

The OG transaction.

Tommy Vitor (48:25)

OG maybe that was Australia. OG transnational Trump wants to deport 30,000 migrants to Gitmo. Why not? On Tuesday, the White House press secretary confirmed that the first deportation flights carrying about a dozen people to Gitmo to Cuba was on its way. Usually when we talk about Gitmo, we talk about the detention of post 911 prisoners, terrorism suspects, many who are tortured, many who are wrongly detained. But Gitmo has also been used to temporarily detain asylum seekers picked up at sea, including during the Biden administration. And there's a darker history there of Caribbean migrants from Haiti and Cuba being held at gitmo in the 1990s. This idea is nuts logistically. I mean, for a million reasons, it's nuts. The New York Times, you know, had a long report on this proposal and the logistics. There's 15 prisoners currently at the Guantanamo Bay prison. They're being held in two buildings with about 275 cells. There's not like a ton of infrastructure, existing infrastructure available to house people. Pete Hegseth, the secretary of defense, suggested you could put tents up on the golf course to house another 6,000 deportees. There's a Marine general quoted in this Time story who said, in the 90s, at its peak, the camp held 25,000 migrants, mostly Cubans. I think there's just people outside in tents. But getting people to Gitmo requires very expensive military flights. And they have to ship in all the clothing, all the food, water. I mean, it's like it's going to be unbelievably expensive, logistically stupid. And obviously Gitmo is a moral stain on the history of our country. Which. Which explains why Trump probably likes the idea.

Ben Rhodes (50:06)

Yeah, the doge Bros. Could go down there to find some waste because it's far more per prisoner to keep him open. What I find interesting about this, because you pointed out the absurdity of it. So just to add another point, for all the self flagellation that we've been doing as Democrats about, we became too oppositional just to Trump. And what do we stand for? They're absolutely driven by things that people like you and I were upset about. You know, like, in other words, liberals didn't like Gitmo because America tortured people there and it became a symbol of all the excesses of the war on terror. And it's like, because we didn't like it, we're gonna put 30,000 people there.

Tommy Vitor (50:50)

Exactly.

Ben Rhodes (50:51)

You know, this is what is so strange to me is that they're the ones obsessed with us, you know, and like, we have no power.

Tommy Vitor (50:59)

You won, guys.

Ben Rhodes (51:00)

You guys won't.

Tommy Vitor (51:01)

I'm a loser.

Ben Rhodes (51:02)

Yeah, we're total losers here.

Tommy Vitor (51:03)

This is all I got is a little podcast.

Ben Rhodes (51:04)

We got a podcast and it's like, we're gonna put 30,000 people in Gitmo to own these libs. You know, they will never reach the end of owning us. You know, it serves no purpose. It's expensive. It's horrible for a reputation in the world. It's absurd that there even is this, like, prison in Cuba that we control. And. And yet, precisely because it's maximally offensive, that's the only reason to do it. There's not any other reason to do it. And there's something so dark and strange about that. And yet it is kind of the beating heart of maga. It's just to kind of stick it to us.

Tommy Vitor (51:45)

Own the libs and inflict pain and cruelty and suffering on random people, on.

Ben Rhodes (51:51)

Vulnerable people, and all the better if they're. If they're not white people of color.

Tommy Vitor (51:54)

Yeah. A few more things, Ben, before we get to the kind of Netanyahu section.

Ben Rhodes (51:58)

Of this, by the way, can you imagine, And I'm going to say this in a comic way, but it's like tragicomic. Imagine being one of these detainees and Gitmo.

Tommy Vitor (52:07)

I was thinking about that too. The 15 guys who've been there for 20 years who were like, what is happening?

Ben Rhodes (52:12)

All of a sudden there's 30,000 people.

Tommy Vitor (52:13)

Happened to the fucking golf course. Who is it? Who's there? Like, ksm. The worst people.

Ben Rhodes (52:21)

Maybe it'll become like some horrible terrorist army. I don't.

Tommy Vitor (52:24)

Well, I mean, yeah, there are security questions. I mean, if you're just creating A giant camp with, as Trump says, the worst of the worst trend. Aragua gang members like seems unsafe. Anyway, one to watch. A couple more things, Ben. Over the weekend, the Trump administration took some airstrikes into Somalia that they said target an ISIS leader. Trump even posted a video of one of the airstrikes on Truth Social, I believe so it's good to see that we are ending the forever wars. Also, the State Department named a new undersecretary for Public diplomacy and Public affairs. This is the role that is the leader on America's public diplomacy abroad out of state. And it was given to a right wing journalist named Darren Beatty. Now it's really, it's hard to overstate how extreme and ill suited this guy is to this job. In 2018, Beatty was fired from the first Trump administration for speaking at a conference tied to white nationalists. Back we cared about those kinds of things. Now we sponsor them through State, a website he founded, concocted the theory that January6 was an FBI led inside job. And he tweets things like the following, quote, competent white men must be in charge if you want things to work. Unfortunately, our entire national ideology is predicated on coddling the feelings of women and minorities and demoralizing competent white men. So congrats on your new team. Marco Rubio.

Ben Rhodes (53:53)

Yeah, these guys really don't like women. There's kind of a through line there across the board and just, it's just a complete prizing of ideology over any other possible qualification. And also to your point, to continue the Rubio theme, like he's clearly not choosing any of his own people. It's like he's just some guy there flies around and they stack the State Department with white nationalists and they got USCID and they write the press release after the Panama trip. You know, just feels like he's not exactly connected to what is happening in that building.

Tommy Vitor (54:34)

No. And I wonder who is. And by the way, it seems like Tulsi Gabbard's gonna get confirmed as dni. She passed out of the Intel Committee, got support from some key Republicans. So there's just no boundaries. I mean, I kind of thought maybe RFK Jr. Was going to be too much of a lib who supported abortion rights. And that might stop him. Nope.

Ben Rhodes (54:52)

No. Not to be like a deep state simp, but like this guy, all these poor foreign service officers and civil servants who will be supervised by this guy. So imagine being a woman coming to work for this guy. That's happening across the U.S. government.

Tommy Vitor (55:09)

Yeah. Or a person of color. Or Marco Rubio. Yeah, getting told by this dude that he's just being cuddled.

Ben Rhodes (55:17)

He's in the way of white excellence.

Tommy Vitor (55:19)

You know, demoralizing honkies. Anyway, so lastly today, it's on Tuesday, February 4th. Prime Minister Bibi Netanyahu is in town. The Israeli Prime Minister. We missed him so much here. Ben and I just paused the recording of the show to watch a couple clips from the little pool spray they did in the Oval Office. They're sitting in two chairs in front of the fireplace. Bibi's got a what can only be described as a gigantic shit eating grin on his face. Ben. Yes. Trump whined about how he'll never get a Nobel Peace Prize. Netanyahu was asked whether Trump, Trump or Biden deserves credit for the hostage release and ceasefire deal. You'll be shocked to hear he gave all the credit to Trump. Mr. Trump said he's glad Mr. Trump is here. And then we wanted to play for you this rant from Trump about essentially ethnically cleansing Gaza and why Gazans would ever want to return home. Here it is.

Chris Murphy (56:18)

Would Palestinians have the right to return.

Tommy Vitor (56:20)

To Gaza if they left while the rebuilding was happening?

Donald Trump (56:23)

It would be my hope that we could do something really nice, really good where they wouldn't want to return. Why would they want to return? The place has been hell. It's been one of the meanest, one of the meanest, toughest places on earth. And right now it's, I've seen every picture from every angle better than if I were there. And nobody can live there. There. You can't live there. So if we can build them through massive amounts of money supplied by other people, very rich nations, and they're willing to supply it, if we can build something for them in one of the countries, and it could be Jordan and it could be Egypt, it could be other countries and you could build four or five or six areas. It doesn't have to be one area, but you take certain areas and you build really good quality housing, like a beautiful town, like someplace where they can live and not die. Because Gaza is a guarantee that they're going to end up dying. The same thing is going to happen again. It's happened over and over again and it's going to happen again, as sure as you're standing there, Peter. So I hope that we could do something where they wouldn't want to go back. Who would want to go back? They've experienced nothing but death and destruction.

Tommy Vitor (57:42)

So, Ben, it does seem like no one's kidding around about this plan to Ethnic cleanse Gaza, I mean, no.

Ben Rhodes (57:50)

And I think we have to pause and just remember, first of all, this guy Netanyahu has been charged with war crimes by the National Criminal Court and that's how most of the world sees him. Right. And he's the first foreign visitor to the Trump White House. So Trump talks about how Gaza has been completely destroyed. Right. He's sitting next to the guy who destroyed it with help from Joe Biden in the form of weapons. And that's not normal either. It fits with what we're saying about their fixation on the libs and stuff. Usually the first foreign trip is to Canada or Mexico. The first foreign visitors, Canada, Mexico, now we threaten trade wars with them. And it's not normal for the first foreign visitor to be the Israeli Prime Minister. And that almost feels designed. It just shows how much politics have captured the Republican Party and Trump and just even how nobody's even pointing out that that's unusual.

Tommy Vitor (58:56)

Right. And also the only foreign aid that's not cut off is to Israel, into Egypt to support Israel.

Ben Rhodes (59:01)

It shows you how much American identity polit kind of captured American foreign policy because this would not. This doesn't make sense in any other way. Now let's be clear too. He's literally just sitting there making a more aggressive case for ethnically cleansing. The Palestinians we talked about, they don't want to leave Gaza. The neighboring countries don't want them to leave Gaza. They know if they leave Gaza they'll never go back. The people that want them to leave Gaza are like Ben GVIR and the most right wing elements in the Israeli coalition because they want to settle Gaza and have it be part of Israel and ethnically cleanse it. That's what's happening. I mean, that's the President of the United States with his first foreign visitor endorsing the ethnic cleansing of a people. And I mean, that's what happened.

Tommy Vitor (59:51)

Yeah, it's also worth. I always read the kind of preview stories before Netanyahu visit because there's very purposeful leaks. And there's two I wanted to talk about. The Washington Post talked about all the pressure on Netanyahu from the right wing of his coalition to not complete the ceasefire deal, to basically end it after this first phase, this first 42 days, and then resume fighting because people like Smotrich, the right wing Finance Minister, don't want the deal to go through. They don't want the Israelis to ever leave Gaza. And what that would mean in practice is that second tranche of male hostages doesn't get out and the IDF forces don't leave the Gaza Strip and things just return to how they were a few weeks ago, which would be a catastrophic action for every human being in Gaza. I mean, I think all the humanitarian aid would stop flowing into Gaza. And then during this, before Netanyahu came into the Oval, Trump did this little event with himself and his team where he signed some executive orders. One of them was reimposing maximum pressure on Iran, going back to his strategy from the first administration. And Ben, I noticed there was an article in the New York Times about new intelligence the US has about Iranian scientists exploring a faster approach to developing nuclear weapons. So it does seem like that was a bit of a pretext to get back to this maximum pressure strategy. And I don't know, maybe you pick back up the conversations about military strikes on the Iranian nuclear infrastructure. And then the Trump signed a second eo, withdrawing the US from UNRA and the UN Human Rights Council. And that UNRA withdrawal on top of the Israelis stopping cooperation with UNRA makes you wonder how any humanitarian relief is going to get into Gaza if this war starts back up. And I just, I don't know.

Ben Rhodes (61:41)

We had the, you know, head of director of UNWRA and Gaza on a couple weeks ago and he was saying that this UNRWA ban in Israel, if it's supplemented to by the US will paralyze their ability to operate. And if you think about it, the USAID cutoff has paralyzed the ability of USAID to deliver its part of the humanitarian ceasefire. So if you're basically shutting down USAID and trying to shut down unwra, you're not going to be able to get, you know, you're not going to be able to keep the humanitarian part of the, the ceasefire terms. I don't think that's gonna keep Trump up at night. That's the first thing. The second thing is, you know, which.

Tommy Vitor (62:19)

By the way, is a hell of a pretext for that ethnic cleansing operation.

Ben Rhodes (62:22)

Yeah.

Tommy Vitor (62:22)

You know, they'll be like, well, we can't get any humanitarian relief into Gaza. We gotta get everybody out.

Ben Rhodes (62:26)

Yeah.

Tommy Vitor (62:26)

And what will happen is the most vulnerable people will probably leave and a bunch of Hamas fighters will stay and there'll be this guerrilla war for God knows how long.

Ben Rhodes (62:36)

Yes, absolutely. And the other thing is the people that like to throw around charges of anti Semitism, one of their allegations essentially is don't claim that the US makes policies in the Middle east on behalf of Israel. Well, one way to reinforce that impression is to sign your Iran Policy on the eve of meeting with the Israeli Prime Minister. Good point.

Tommy Vitor (63:05)

That's a good point.

Ben Rhodes (63:06)

I mean, I think that we have an Iran policy that should be rooted in US interest, not an Iran policy that is like a housewarming gift to Bibi Netanyahu when he comes to visit. And then the last thing I'd say is part of what worries me about the Trump presidency vis a vis the Israeli right wing is if you are Smotrich or Ben gvir, you are thinking, we'll never have an opportunity to like this. We've got this guy in there for four years who doesn't give a shit about the Palestinians, doesn't give a shit about international opinion, is willing to break any international norm. So if ever there was a time to depopulate Gaza or to annex the west bank, we have to go now. And so it incentivizes them to push Netanyahu harder to break the ceasefire or to do something in Gaza or the west bank that they wouldn't do with even a Joe Biden in there. Gave them a pretty blank check. And by the way, if you're an Iranian scientist, the Trump presidency is a time where you might be like, shit, man, maybe we need a nuclear weapon. You know, like all these other countries are going to make these judgments based on the, you know, extreme nature of Trump and where that, what, what does that lead them to do? That's, that's always been a concern of mine.

Tommy Vitor (64:20)

Yeah, this is a scary one and just the beginning. And, you know, I guess we're counting on Steve Witkoff. So keep the ceasefire on track.

Ben Rhodes (64:28)

Steve Witkoff, by all accounts, seems to really support a two state solution. So I don't know, like, let's get Witkoff out front and center. I don't know.

Tommy Vitor (64:36)

That guy has some juice and Trump is disinterested and maybe he can keep this thing on track, but I'm not all that hopeful. Okay? Positive the world listeners. It is now 7:30pm Eastern. Trump just finished his press conference with Prime Minister Bibi Netanyahu. What we played for you earlier was part of what's called a pool spray. So that is when the two leaders sit down in the Oval Office. Often the press staff brings in the reporters briefly. They get some images and photos. Sometimes they shot a few questions which you guys heard Trump and Netanyahu answer. Then they had their meeting, their one on one in the Oval or wherever it was. And then they went to a different part of the White House for an official press conference. That press conference just wrapped and here is a clip that we wanted to play for you guys. And by the way, this is just Tommy Solo because Ben had to go home to pick up his kids. But we thought that this announcement that Donald Trump just made was shocking enough that we needed to do an addendum to the podcast to make sure you heard it.

Donald Trump (65:43)

The US Will take over the Gaza Strip and we will do a job with it too. Will own it. I do see a long term ownership position and I see it bringing great stability to that part of the Middle east and maybe the entire Middle East. And everybody I've spoken to, this was not a decision made lightly. Everybody I've spoken to loves the idea of the United States owning that piece of land.

Tommy Vitor (66:08)

So, yes, you just heard what you think you heard. Donald Trump says the United States is going to take over the Gaza Strip and occupy it. Trump was asked whether this was a temporary thing or long term. And he said that the US Is going to take a long term ownership position of Gaza. I guess he's viewing this as a building or an asset. Trump was asked if he would send US Troops to Gaza as part of this annexation process. And he said, quote, if it's necessary, we'll do that. We're going to take over that piece and we're going to develop it it. So for everyone keeping score at home here, Trump has now said the United States should annex Gaza, Greenland, potentially the Panama Canal. He keeps joking about Canada becoming the 51st state and a joke that I guess is sounding more serious every single day. So I guess this is America first foreign policy. This is restraint. This is Trump honoring his pledge to end wars and not get US Troops involved in conflicts overseas. That's what we're seeing here. So I don't know, I wish Ben was here because I just sort of have my jaw on the table here. I'm going to be very interested to see what the international reaction to this announcement is. You have to imagine it will not be well received in most capitals on the so called Arab Street. You can imagine a lot of right wing Israelis being angry about the idea of the US Controlling a territory that a lot of them think should be part of Israel. And then of course, I mean, it goes without saying that people in Gaza, people in the west bank, they are going to fight this idea tooth and nail. I mean, Gaza is their home. Two million people live there. Gaza is a part of what has long been envisioned as a future Palestinian state. The idea that people in Gaza just want to live there because they have no other option is bullshit. It is patronizing and dishonest and wrong. This is someone's home. This is home to millions of people. And Donald Trump just announced that the US Is going to push them all out of it and redevelop it and then own it in perpetuity. So, I don't know, it's a long ways, I guess, from this announcement to this actually happening. But this was. I don't get shocked that often by things Donald Trump says. I thought it was shocking enough for the United States President to announce a policy of ethnic cleansing of the Gaza Strip, but now I guess we're planning to occupy it. So that's why we broke back into the show, why it's just me solo and why we wanted to update you on all of this. And I'm sure we'll cover it more next week. Okay, we're going to take a quick break, but when we come back, you're going to hear Ben's interview with Yuzra El Bagir, who's a Sky News Africa correspondent. She has been in the DRC recently covering the conflict there with M23. So you'll want to hear that interview. So stick around. Pod Save the World is brought to you by Helix. You know, we love Helix mattresses here at Crooked Media. Lovett's got one, Fabro's got one, I've got one. Have one in our guest bedroom. And every single time someone stays at our house, they say, that is the most comfortable bed I've ever slept on. I love that bed. Where'd you get that bed? And I say, you know what? Helix. And the way you figure out which Helix mattress works best for you is you take the Helix Sleep quiz and you can find your perfect mattress in under two minutes. I took the Helix Sleep Quiz. I was matched with the Dawn Luxe because I wanted something that felt kind of firm. And I sleep on my stomach and it was the perfect combo for me. The helix lineup offers 20 unique mattresses, including the award winning luxe and ultra premium elite collections. Helix Plus, a mattress designed for big and tall sleepers. Helix Kids, a mattress designed for growing bodies. Endorsed by child sleep experts. Helix knows there's no better way to test out a new mattress than by sleeping on it in your own home. That's why they offer 100 night trial and a 1015 year warranty to try out your new Helix mattress. Plus, your personalized mattress is shipped straight to your door free of charge. Go to helix.comworld for 20% off site wide and two free dream pillows with mattress purchase. That's helixsleep.comworld for 20% off sitewide plus two dream pillows with the mattress purchase helixsleep.comworld this podcast is supported by Comedy.

Jon Stewart (70:26)

Central's Emmy Award winning series, the Daily Show. Jon Stewart and the Daily show news team are kicking off 2025 with brand new episodes covering a brand new administration and a not quite brand new president. While it may feel like we've all been here before, it's never been covered like this with Jon Stewart behind the desk kicking off every week. Comedy Central's the Daily show new tonight at 11 on Comedy Central and streaming next day on Paramount Plus.

Ben Rhodes (70:55)

Okay, I'm very pleased to be joined by Yusra Al Bagir, who is the Africa correspondent for Sky News and has been covering, including on the ground, the situation in the Democratic Republic of the Congo. Yusra, thanks so much for joining us.

Yusra El Bagir (71:10)

Thanks for having me, Ben.

Ben Rhodes (71:11)

I want to just start by giving people an update on where things stand and then we'll go back and talk a bit about how we got here. But what is your latest understanding of what is happening on the ground? I know there's been talk from M23 about a ceasefire, but what is your understanding of where things stand?

Yusra El Bagir (71:30)

And as it stands, bodies are being recovered. At least 900 people were killed in just those five days of fighting during the takeover of Goma, and at least 2,900 were injured. But we're expecting that number to rise. I mean, it's a bit of a cleanup operation from what I'm seeing. There's still that kind of shock of what's happened over a very short period of time. M23 are positioning themselves as a de facto governing body. They've said that they want to set up a local administration. We spoke to the general of that area when we left and he was very much putting forward this presentation of them being following ihl, though he mistakenly called it ihr, apologizing for the mess that, that we were witness to and saying, you know how it is, we're fighting for our survival. And this is, this is what happens with war, unfortunately. So there is a kind of this, I'd say, PR campaign happening, trying to make M23 look like they could govern Goma, they could replace the Congolese state. But as this is happening, reports are coming out that they're actually moving south to South Kivo now and that they're reinforcing their positions in South Kivu and that they might be kind of descending on Bukavu. The capital of South Kivo, in the similar way that they took over Goma. They're very ambitious. I would be surprised if they were stopping at Goma, though. With Goma, they now have kind of the heart of North Kivo of the eastern drc, which borders Rwanda, their backers, but also the country where they want to funnel out the resources.

Ben Rhodes (73:23)

So, you know, they've been making some gains over the last few months in the countryside. Goma was obviously a dramatic escalation. What is your sense of why this is happening now? Was it opportunistic? Was this a Decision taken by M23, by Rwanda? Why are we watching this kind of emergence of M23 again?

Yusra El Bagir (73:50)

I mean, it depends on who you ask. M23 will say they're fighting for their survival. They're fighting for the existential threat of the Congolese state supporting fdlr, which is militias born out of the same militias that carried out the Rwandan genocide against the Tutsis. Rwanda will say that they're securing their border, that they're preserving the integrity, you know, the sovereign integrity of their state. But, I mean, it really does just feel like a land grab. It feels like it's all about money at a time where the eu, by signing a memorandum of understanding with Rwanda, an agreement to use Rwandan resources for clean energy in Europe when Rwanda doesn't have any resources. So I think there was a lot of complicity from Europe around what Rwanda was doing through M23 in plain sight, this kind of consistent seizing of territory, seizing of mining territory. And just before we went to Goma, I was speaking to a close colleague who's worked in the DRC for decades. And we spoke about the significance of Goma. And the question was, you know, they've been engaging in economic war. Why would they want Goma? And, you know, he argued that Goma isn't. That they don't need Goma, and they probably won't take it because of the backlash. But arriving in Goma and speaking to, you know, senior UNESCO colonels, they made it very clear that Goma is. It's the symbolic move. It's to show that they are here to stay through Goma. They have access to the border with Rwanda, but they also have access to an international airport. They want the heart of the region. They're not going to just take the mines. They've already got the mines. But I think they do actually want to set up a de facto state.

Ben Rhodes (75:48)

And for people who don't follow this that closely, what are the resources we're talking about in terms of the mining resources, the resources that Rwanda would want to cut out, the resources that Europe wants to import.

Yusra El Bagir (75:59)

Well, we've got the three T's, tin, tantalum, tungsten, but we've also got cobalt. The European demand for the 3T supply chain really comes down to electric cars and microchips. And that's one of the things that had been driving campaigns, social media campaigns around the Congo was that our iPhones are part of this conflict supply chain, electric vehicles are involved in this conflict supply chain. That everyone is kind of turning away from the suffering and the mass displacement and the huge humanitarian repercussions of our own consumption. That's, you know, I think that was, that point had been made very early on last year. But also we saw saw lawsuits against big tech in the US be thrown out of court. And then recently we've seen those lawsuits be enlivened from France and Belgium trying to make the point that there's an issue with the supply chain, that these minerals are coming from mines where not only are they captured through war, but it's also children. Child miners have been well documented in these mines. You've got horrific conditions for artisanal miners. But also a UN Panel of Experts report said that they make M23, make $800,000 a month on taxes in mining areas. So it's this, it almost feels like a criminal syndicate. I mean, they're making money from in so many different ways around these mines. And Rubaiya is home to one of the largest cobalt mines in the world. It's just incredibly rich. So again with the EU signing this agreement with Rwanda, February 2024 came as a huge shock to mineral experts in Europe because there was no way the trade data, Rwanda's trade data, could stand up. An agreement where they're basically saying Rwanda is going to supply Europe with all these resources for their clean, sustainable future and in return giving Rwanda 750, around £750 million, we'd say €900 Million fund from their Global Gateway strategy that the EU set up as an alternative to China's Belt and Road Initiative. But I've been speaking to experts about this and one thing that sticks is even though now there's pressure, especially from Belgian members of European Parliament center right and even center right, left wing members of European Parliament for this deal to be suspended, this deal with Rwanda, the problem is there will always be buyers of conflict minerals. And I think the concern is that even if there's this pressure for the EU to suspend this deal. Rwanda could just turn to China and have those minerals sold to the Chinese. So Rwanda, I think, is in a position where they've got access, they've got a proxy force, and they've also got a sense of almost a moral justification from the genocide that they are using to say we are protecting Tutsis, whether they're Congolese or rwandan, by supporting M23.

Ben Rhodes (79:23)

And when you were in Goma and talking to people, where has the Congolese state been? The Congolese armed forces, presumably, obviously this is their territory. What happened to the security forces and the authority of the Congolese state? And what are they trying to do to deal with this growing presence of NP3?

Yusra El Bagir (79:47)

It's incredibly fractured. And I mean, we were there as senior fardc, that's the Congolese armed forces commanders fled by ferry. They were fleeing over Lake Kivu en masse in boats until M23. Then when they had enough control, banned movement over the lake. We, you know, the few military, senior military commanders that we met, one of them was kind of their head of media was just, I mean, we asked him if he could take us to the front line. And he looked at us like, even I don't want to go to the front line. I mean, M23 were closing in really quickly. And I think, think by the time we got there, everyone was, I mean, at that senior kind of top brass level, they were figuring out how they were going to extract themselves. But there was a, there were pockets of resistance. There was a group of around 350 special forces, Congolese forces who were holding it down, holding down the fort. They were fighting in Mount Goma with M23. And then they moved down and were fighting at ship street level just as we saw masses of Congolese soldiers surrender as well. And we just, just from outside our hotel, we could see them surrender at the UN peacekeeping base. And then we'd come out to the, to the roof when we could kind of pop our heads back up and see their fatigues on the, on the road. So there was kind of at the lower levels, there was mass surrender from Congolese forces in Goma. At the higher levels, there were, There was just senior commanders fleeing and then there was this group of special forces that were trying to at least put up a fight.

Ben Rhodes (81:26)

And what about the neighboring governments who've been involved in trying to keep some modicum of stability or peace in the past? I saw a war of words between President Kagame in Rwanda, President Ramaphoso in South Africa. Is it. What is the role for the Neighboring states. And. And what is the current dynamic in terms of trying to prevent this from escalating further?

Yusra El Bagir (81:55)

I mean, we've seen that Uganda and Burundi may get involved. And Burundi, it seems clear which side with the Congolese state in fighting M23, because South Kivu is on Burundi's border, on their western border, Uganda. It's interesting because I think traditionally Uganda would step in on the Congolese side. But, I mean, you just read. You read tweets by Museveni's son, who's like a complete, you know, maverick, and.

Ben Rhodes (82:29)

He'S saying he's a Don junior of Uganda.

Yusra El Bagir (82:32)

Yeah, yeah, exactly. Ruto. President Ruto of Kenya saying he wants to hold a summit, an extraordinary summit. Though Ruto has lost a lot of credibility with how he handled the protests in his own country. And South. You know, Kagami and Ramaphosa actually ended up having Twitter beef, which was shocking to everyone, where Kagami directly, quote, tweeted Ramaphosa after Ramaphosa called the Random Defense Forces a militia. And Kagame had a lot to say about that. So. So it's concerning. There does feel like a sense that it's spreading, but I also feel like there would be a lot of hesitation to engage multinationally and even regionally. I mean, I could see Burundi getting involved, and the proximity is enough for that. I think Uganda's too split on who to side with. But in terms of South Africa and Rwanda, I mean, I think what happened here was that there was just such outrage around South African troops being killed in a fight that isn't theirs. Like, a lot of outrage. And I think the presidency and senior ministers here were responding to a lot of hate towards Rwanda and a lot of anger towards the government. But it felt very brash. It didn't feel like a war cry. And I think that tension, though, will be hard to dispel considering how far it's gone and the words that have been shared. But. But I mean, I think regionally there's an issue. I wouldn't say cross continentally. We'll see that kind of conflict play out on the ground.

Ben Rhodes (84:14)

I mean, so as you've described this, nobody comes out looking particularly good in the sense that the Europeans are buying conflict minerals. The Rwandans are obviously backing M23. The region is trying to figure out where it stands. I want to ask you about the people. You are in Goma. These people have been through endless cycles of violence, brutal tactics. M23 is known to use rape as a weapon of war. What was the sense among the people that you spoke to about how they see things and what they want.

Yusra El Bagir (84:50)

I mean, I think the day before the takeover, even though it was imminent and they were approaching, there was a life as normal vibe where that kind of battle hardenedness or that sense of kind of they've been through this before or being jaded, felt like it was there. People were getting on with it. It was just like busy roads. There was no sense of hiding away. I think people were still just continuing their life as normal until they couldn't. Until they had to take cover for two days because of constant shelling and gunfire. There was no electricity and there was no running water. It had been switched off. And the Congolese were saying it was M23, and the M23 was saying it was the Congolese government. But I think there was definitely this rising dread underneath from when we landed in the airport. I mean, even the way people were, you know, it wasn't even just the normal hustle and bustle of an airport. There was a sense of like, everyone's just trying to get as much money as they can before things go bust. The. The days that followed, we spent. I mean, we spent most of it in our hotel, reporting from the hotel. And we were well positioned because we were very close to the border. And we were also next to the UN peacekeeping base and downtown, where the fighting was really bad. But I think mostly I was reading, you know, getting my cues off of the hotel stuff, and I think there was just this sense of decorum and dignity and care through all of that. But still heartbreak, still a real sense of uncertainty. I mean, you'd speak to one person and they'd say, we just want peace. I think most of the people we, you know, we just want peace. If it's M23, great. If it's not, it's not. But then when you speak to another person who's fed up with the Congolese government, it's corruption. You know, the state capture, the fact that Congolese, the Congolese army and, you know, aligned militias are as guilty of committing atrocities as M23. Fed up. Happy for M23 to come in and clean up shop and see what happens next. But the thing we kept hearing again and again is we just want peace. There's just an element of it being so exhausting, Just. Just completely exhausting. I mean, 2020, 2012, Goma was captured by M23. Didn't last long, and there was a peace deal that was brokered after that. But this is the fifth time since the 90s, since the genocide in Rwanda, that Goma's been captured by Rwandan backed rebels. So not necessarily M23, but Rwandan backed rebels. And twice two of those times during the Congo wars, Rwanda invaded its neighbor, invaded the drc. So this is not new to them. And these cycles keep happening, but definitely increasing in violence, increasing in just deprivation, a sense of desperation and honestly just hopelessness because they keep rebuilding and they keep making Jew and they keep finding ways through, but. But at what cost? And I think Rwanda is becoming much more brazen with its support in recent years of M23 and has the resources to do so considering its partnerships with different Western governments. And Kagame has been called the West's favorite dictator for many years now. And it's the people in the DRC who felt that on a very real level.

Ben Rhodes (88:27)

Yeah, I mean, one last question. Just listening to your talk and I'm trying to phrase this the right way. I mean, a lot of the people in Western governments and people in kind of even global philanthropy who focus on Africa and you cover Africa strangely, the same kind of people that might celebrate Kagame for advances he's made in development and forged decades long relationships with him. He's very connected in Western governments and kind of the African philanthropic community. They're like the same kind of people that also celebrate Dennis Mukwege, the Congolese doctor who won the Nobel Peace Prize for the work he's done with women affected by rape in eastern Congo. Just hearing you talk made me think about the strangeness of this reality. I mean, what needs to change about how people who think that they care about Africa have gone about, you know, spending their dollars? Because this seems like there's a lot of obviously contradiction embedded in giving awards to people that help women affected by conflict while also giving money to Kagame, who is in part behind a lot of the conflict. Does that make sense?

Yusra El Bagir (89:44)

Yeah, I mean, I think the one thing that I come up against a lot, I mean, I'm from Sudan and I feel like the thing that drives that cynical approach to Africa, to Sudan, to the drc, to other countries on the continent, is this sense that we're kind of almost predestined to violence, that that's our lot in life, that this is just the nature of our countries and of our environments. And I think that then gives, you know, it's this sense that, oh, if it's not us, you know, if it's not us, it will be the Chinese, if it's not us, it'll be the Russians. But, but I think the moral high ground manifests in that sort of regulatory necessity. You need to regulate the supply chain of minerals. You need to be involved in the development of institutions on the continent. Otherwise these awards and these sentiments of liberal values and development of Africa, they just feel very hollow. And I think this is one of the things that we often face with conflict resolution entities, with international mediation is that, you know, when war does break out, the international community will come in, will make these proclamations of, you know, we condemn the violence, we condemn the actions of one party or another while actively in deals, you know, making deals with one party or the other. I mean the EU came out with quite a strong statement condemning M23 and condemning Rwanda for its invasion, saying it must withdraw its troops from Congolese soil. At the same time condemning the Congolese army and the ftlr, also condemning the mining and saying that the UN panel of experts reports the findings of it are shocking while still carrying on with their minerals deal. So I mean when you speak to young people on the continent, there's always really a sense of that kind of rising anti Western sentiment comes from that sense of you don't let us into your countries, you know, you don't develop, you, you basically enable, fund the strong men who are ruining our lives. You create, you have a hegemony of a structure, a global structure that puts kind of the Western perspective at the forefront and yet you claim the moral high ground and that's across Africa and increasingly so obviously with the Israel Palestine conflict.

Ben Rhodes (92:26)

Yeah, well that's a really good note to end on a lot for people to think about. Think about what's in your phone, think about where it comes from and think about the people there. Yusra El Badir, the Sky News Africa correspondent. Everybody should follow your work, work on sky and also on. You're on X. I know, and other social media platforms. So thanks so much for, for joining us. I really appreciate it.

Yusra El Bagir (92:47)

Thanks Ben.

Tommy Vitor (92:52)

Thanks again to Usher for joining the show and thanks again to Noah Bullock for talking to me about all things El Salvador.

Ben Rhodes (92:59)

Your next door neighbor. Wild, Wild man hats fan I assume.

Tommy Vitor (93:03)

I think more Red Sox but yeah, when we were a little, little Patriots sucked.

Ben Rhodes (93:06)

What's your, what's your pick here? I think Eagles by. I'm going to say eagles by a touchdown.

Tommy Vitor (93:13)

I don't think I can bet against Patrick Mahomes. Yeah, I think he's probably going to take it.

Ben Rhodes (93:17)

Yeah, I know it's that kind of world that now, isn't it? Just rich get richer.

Tommy Vitor (93:25)

Well check in next week to see how wrong we were. See you bud. If you want to get ad free episodes, exclusive content and more, consider joining our Friends of the Pod subscription community@crooked.com friends. Don't forget to follow us at Crooked media on Instagram, TikTok and Twitter for more original content, host takeovers and other community events. Plus, find Pod Save the World on YouTube for access to full episodes, bonus content and more. If you're as opinionated as we are, consider dropping a review. Pod Save the World is a Crooked Media production. Our producer is Alona Minkowski. Our son Associate producer is Michael Goldsmith. Our executive producers are me, Tommy Vitor and Ben Rhodes. The show is mixed and edited by Andrew Chadwick and engineered by Vasilis Fotopoulos. Audio support by Kyle Seglin and Charlotte Landis. Madeline Herringer is our head of News and programming. Matt De Groat is our Head of production. Andy Taft is our Executive assistant. Thanks to our digital team, Phoebe Bradford, William Jones, Kirill Palaviv and Molly Lobel. Upload our episodes and videos to to YouTube.com podsavetheworld our production staff is proudly unionized with the Writers Guild of America east hey friends, Ted Danson here, and I want to let you know about my new podcast. It's called where everybody knows your name with me, Ted Danson and Woody Harrelson. Sometimes doing this podcast is a chance for me and my good bud Woody to reconnect after cheers wrapped 30 years ago. Plus, we're introducing each other to the friends we've met since, like Jane Fonda, Conan O'Brien, Eric Andre, Mary Steenburgen, my wife, and Flea from the Red Hot Chili Peppers. And trust me, it's always a great hang when Woody's there, so why wait? Listen to where everybody knows your name. Wherever you get your podcasts.

Chris Murphy (95:17)

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