Elon Musk’s Quest For Global Domination

Summary

Pod Save the World: Elon Musk’s Quest For Global Domination

Episode Release Date: January 8, 2025 | Hosts: Tommy Vietor & Ben Rhodes

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Introduction

After an extended holiday break, co-hosts Tommy Vietor and Ben Rhodes dive into a whirlwind of global developments, with a particular focus on Elon Musk's increasing involvement in international politics. The episode navigates through significant leadership changes, geopolitical tensions, and the profound impacts of influential figures on the global stage.

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Leadership Changes in Canada

The episode opens with a major political shift in Canada as Prime Minister Justin Trudeau announces his resignation from both the leadership of the Liberal Party and his role as Prime Minister. Trudeau stated:

"This country deserves a real choice in the next election... And it has become clear to me if I'm having to fight internal battles, I cannot be the best option in that election." [04:44]

Tommy and Ben dissect the implications of Trudeau's departure, highlighting internal party conflicts and declining public support. With Trudeau's disapproval rating soaring at 74% and his party garnering only 16% voter intention, the stage is set for Pierre Poilievre of the Conservative Party to potentially take the helm. Ben Rhodes reflects on Trudeau's legacy, acknowledging his contributions to climate policy and international relations while critiquing his disconnect from pressing domestic issues like the cost of living and affordable housing.

Impact of Donald Trump on Canadian Politics

The discussion shifts to the influence of U.S. President Donald Trump on Canadian politics. Trudeau's inability to effectively counter Trump's threats, such as imposing 25% tariffs on Canadian goods, is seen as a contributing factor to his resignation. The hosts ponder whether Trump's aggressive rhetoric exacerbated internal divisions within the Liberal Party, ultimately forcing Trudeau to step down at a precarious moment for Canada.

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Leadership Crisis in South Korea

Transitioning to Asia, the hosts delve into the ongoing political instability in South Korea. Following President Yoon Suk Yul's impeachment after a failed attempt to declare martial law, the country finds itself with a third acting president in just three weeks. The Constitutional Court’s inability to fill its remaining three seats has stalled critical decisions regarding the removal of Yoon and his successor.

Ben Rhodes emphasizes the fragility of South Korea's democracy in this turbulent period:

"This is a volatile part of the world... It's not good for the United States to have one of its anchor allies in Asia admired in this kind of complete chaos." [18:14]

The episode highlights the potential for external provocations, such as threats from North Korea, exacerbated by the leadership vacuum and internal chaos. The situation in South Korea serves as a cautionary tale about the resilience of democracies and the ever-present risks of backsliding into authoritarianism.

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Donald Trump’s Foreign Policy Blitz: Greenland and the Panama Canal

A significant portion of the episode analyzes President Trump's recent aggressive statements regarding Greenland and the Panama Canal. Trump declared:

"The ownership and control of Greenland is an absolute necessity for the United States of America." [26:42]

He further asserted the imperative control over the Panama Canal, citing national security and economic interests. Ben Rhodes provides a critical examination of these claims, suggesting that Trump's rhetoric is more about political posturing and appealing to nationalist sentiments rather than a coherent policy strategy. The hosts discuss the historical context of U.S. involvement in these regions and the unrealistic nature of Trump's demands, emphasizing the potential diplomatic fallout with Denmark and Panama.

"This is a classic bully behavior... He's picking fights with Denmark and Panama and Canada." [28:29]

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Elon Musk’s Political Interference

Elon Musk emerges as a central figure in the hosts' analysis of global political manipulation. Musk's endorsements and public attacks on political figures across multiple countries raise alarms about his intentions and the broader implications for democracy.

• Germany: Musk has publicly criticized Chancellor Olaf Scholz and endorsed the far-right Alternative for Germany (AfD) party, which is considered extremist by German intelligence agencies.

• United Kingdom: Musk has shown support for Nigel Farage’s Reform Party, even suggesting substantial financial contributions, while simultaneously criticizing Labour Party leader Keir Starmer.

• Canada: His comments on Conservative leader Pierre Poilievre, particularly regarding Poilievre's stance on Iran, indicate a pattern of undermining moderate conservative leadership in favor of more extreme right-wing elements.

Ben Rhodes interprets Musk's actions as part of a broader quest for global influence:

"He thinks that disruption helps him in some way... they have the money to do this." [46:02]

The hosts express concern over Musk's ability to sway elections and support extremist parties, highlighting the dangers of unchecked influence by wealthy individuals in political systems not designed to handle such interference.

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Biden Administration’s Foreign Policy Actions

The conversation shifts to President Joe Biden's efforts to navigate complex international crises, particularly in Sudan, Syria, and at Guantanamo Bay.

• Sudan: Secretary of State Tony Blinken declared that the Rapid Support Forces (RSF) in Sudan have committed genocide, underscoring the severity of the civil war. However, the administration faces criticism for not adequately pressuring the UAE, a key arms supplier to the RSF.

  "RSF and allied militias have systematically murdered men and boys... and deliberately targeted women and girls." [59:07]

• Syria: The Biden administration issued a general license exemption allowing limited transactions to support essential services amid ongoing conflict. Ben Rhodes critiques this as a "half measure" that neither fully addresses the sanctions nor facilitates substantial investment and reconstruction.

  "It's a classic Washington half measure... better than nothing." [71:37]

• Guantanamo Bay: A notable achievement is the reduction of detainees at Guantanamo, with the Pentagon transferring 11 prisoners to Oman, bringing the total down to 15. The hosts commend Biden for making progress on this longstanding issue, despite Congressional roadblocks.

  "Good for Biden for starting to move to get these guys out." [75:09]

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Current Conflicts: Gaza and Middle East Tensions

The episode touches on the ongoing conflict in Gaza, highlighting the humanitarian crisis with reports of infants dying from the cold due to inadequate shelter. Trump’s involvement is noted, as he threatens further instability in the Middle East unless specific demands are met.

"All hell will break loose in the Middle East if there's not a ceasefire and a hostage release deal." [64:47]

Ben Rhodes interprets Trump’s statements as aimed at regional players like Qatar and Egypt to accelerate peace talks, although skepticism remains regarding the efficacy and sincerity of these threats.

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Conclusion

Tommy Vietor and Ben Rhodes wrap up the episode by emphasizing the interconnectedness of these global issues and the significant influence wielded by figures like Elon Musk and Donald Trump. The discussion underscores the fragility of democratic institutions under external pressures and the urgent need for robust safeguards against undue influence in international politics.

"This is not a victory. This is going to have consequences." [07:20]

The episode serves as a sobering examination of current geopolitical dynamics, urging listeners to recognize the profound impacts of individual actions on the global stage.

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Notable Quotes:

1. Justin Trudeau on Resignation:

   "This country deserves a real choice in the next election..." [04:44]

2. Ben Rhodes on South Korean Crisis:

   "This is a volatile part of the world... It's not good for the United States to have one of its anchor allies in Asia admired in this kind of complete chaos." [18:14]

3. Elon Musk on Greenland:

   "We need Greenland for national security purposes... We need it for national security." [26:42]

4. Ben Rhodes on Musk's Global Influence:

   "He thinks that disruption helps him in some way... they have the money to do this." [46:02]

5. Tony Blinken on Sudan Genocide:

   "RSF and allied militias have systematically murdered men and boys... and deliberately targeted women and girls." [59:07]

6. Ben Rhodes on Guantanamo Bay:

   "Good for Biden for starting to move to get these guys out." [75:09]

7. Biden Administration on Fairness and Pressure:

   "It's a classic Washington half measure... better than nothing." [71:37]

8. Conclusion by Ben Rhodes:

   "This is not a victory. This is going to have consequences." [07:20]

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Final Thoughts

"Elon Musk’s Quest For Global Domination" offers a comprehensive analysis of how individual actors can shape international relations and domestic politics. The hosts' insightful commentary sheds light on the complexities of maintaining democratic integrity in an era of unprecedented influence by technologically savvy and wealthy individuals.

Transcript

[Tommy Vitor]

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[Ben Rhodes]

I'm Ben Rhodes.

[Tommy Vitor]

Happy holidays.

[Ben Rhodes]

Happy New Year.

[Tommy Vitor]

Man, that was a long break, huh?

[Ben Rhodes]

It's a long break.

[Tommy Vitor]

It's nice. I think this was on like Wednesdays or something.

[Ben Rhodes]

I haven't gone this long without podcasting in many years.

[Tommy Vitor]

Yeah, me either. It was really nice. We had a great time with the family. By the end, I needed to get out of the house and my wife needed me to get out of the house. I think Hannah was like, please leave.

[Ben Rhodes]

We had like a lot of activities and you have kids in the holidays. There's like ice skating and there's parties and there's, you know, just stuff. So I was pretty. One of those breaks where I was more exhausted at the end than recharged.

[Tommy Vitor]

But it was same, same. We also had a couple kind of rolling colds and flu. It's a little harder to do activities.

[Ben Rhodes]

With the eight month olds.

[Tommy Vitor]

But it was very fun to have my daughter learn about Santa for the first time.

[Ben Rhodes]

Had some Santa issues this year.

[Tommy Vitor]

Oh no.

[Ben Rhodes]

I mean, basically they're pretending to believe in Santa, I think, you know, so there. But there are a lot of. Because they're pretending they know how to ask questions that you, you know, going to be uncomfortable answering. You know, well, why is Santa's. This present's from Santa. Why does it say was made by this toy company in Minnesota or something? You know? Yeah, they just start with, you see.

[Tommy Vitor]

Lizzy's in the exact opposite phase. She's two. So we're like at the airport, she sees a Santa doll in a random like bookstore and she's like, Santa? I'm like, yes, that is Santa. Also, no, you cannot buy the Corona water bottle that's next to it. She also really wanted.

[Ben Rhodes]

Don't need that.

[Tommy Vitor]

But a lot of things happened, Ben. It was very, very hard to figure out what to put in the show today, things. We're not going to talk about the horrific ISIS attack in New Orleans.

[Ben Rhodes]

Yes.

[Tommy Vitor]

Or the other lunatic who loaded up a cyber truck with a bunch of explosive material and parked it in front of a Trump Hotel.

[Ben Rhodes]

Yeah. As you and I talked about, we'll probably be circling back to these stories because they have some common threads.

[Tommy Vitor]

Yeah. We need to circle back to those. Obviously, the rise of ISIS is scary. The common thread of these guys being veterans and this rise of extremism and these private militia groups that feel sort of ascendant after Trump's reelection.

[Ben Rhodes]

Yeah. I mean, my only comment on this would be the ISIS thing doesn't feel foreign directed. It feels like this guy was inspired. But if that had happened in the. Obama. Obama gave a address because. I know. Because I had to write it. He gave an address to the nation in primetime over the San Bernardino attack shooting, if you remember.

[Tommy Vitor]

Terrifying.

[Ben Rhodes]

Which did not. Was not as destructive as this one. It just shows how much terrorism no longer. You know, I don't know. So many other crazy things have happened that that doesn't seem quite as alarming to people. I don't know.

[Tommy Vitor]

Yeah. A lot of other risks out there. Well, we got a great show for you today. We are gonna talk about a major leadership change in Canada. This ongoing saga in South Korea.

[Ben Rhodes]

Nuts.

[Tommy Vitor]

Where impeachment turned into arrest attempts. It's one of the most shocking leadership crisis I've seen in a long time. We're also going to do a long Trump section because he was spouting off over the break, talking about Greenland, talking about the Panama Canal. We got Elon Musk kind of banging about in a whole bunch of different countries, foreign affairs. We're going to get into that. And we'll also talk about some major steps Biden took on Sudan, some steps he took on Syria, Guantanamo Bay, and then close it out with some fun stuff. So heavy show. I'm excited to talk it through with you. Let's start. Want to start with Canada?

[Ben Rhodes]

Yeah.

[Tommy Vitor]

Our guy, Justin Trudeau.

[Ben Rhodes]

So not the 51st state yet.

[Tommy Vitor]

Not the 51st state yet, I do think is the operative term. Just kidding. Canadian friends. On Monday, Justin Trudeau announced he's stepping down as Prime Minister of Canada in the leader of the Liberal Party. So this ends Trudeau's nine years as prime minister and 12 years leading the Liberal Party. And it throws Canada into this period of uncertainty. Right. As our new president, Donald Trump is coming into office, promising to slap Trudeau 25% tariffs on them. Here's a clip from Trudeau's speech announcing his decision on Monday. I intend to resign as party leader as prime minister after the party selects its next leader through a robust nationwide competitive process. Last night, I asked the president of the Liberal Party to begin that process. This country deserves a real choice in the next election. And it has become clear to me.

[Ben Rhodes]

That if I'm having to fight internal.

[Tommy Vitor]

Battles, I cannot be the best option in that election. He delivered that speech outdoors in Canada in January.

[Ben Rhodes]

Yes, I was thinking about that a lot, actually, as I watched it in.

[Tommy Vitor]

French and English, which is always impressive when you watch these speeches, but kind.

[Ben Rhodes]

Of annoying when it's like zero degrees.

[Tommy Vitor]

But. Yeah, yeah. So Trudeau also said in his remarks that he's pro Rogan Parliament, which effectively ends the current session of Parliament without dissolving it and forcing new elections. It's basically a way for the Liberal Party to get its shit together, pick a new leader. It's sort of a leadership and priority reset, and then go back into session on March 24th ahead of, we assume, elections this year. They're supposed to happen in October, but will probably get moved up. The new Liberal Party leader will be chosen by members of the Liberal Party. That person becomes the prime minister. As we discussed before the break, though, like, the writing was on the wall for Trudeau for a while, his polling was in the gutter. One poll had his disapproval rating at 74% and only 16% of voters saying they're going to vote for the Liberal Party. And then in mid December, Trudeau's Deputy Prime Minister, Christopher Freeland, one of his closest allies, or for a decade, basically resigned while also criticizing his economic stewardship of the country. Then Jagmeet Singh, the head of the leftist New Democratic Party, announced that he was going to bring a no confidence vote against Trudeau's government in January. So Trudeau was getting ahead of the Conservative Party leader. Pierre Poliev is now best positioned to be the next Prime Minister of Canada. Although, you know, we'll see. But, Ben, let's just pause there. I mean, any thoughts from you, first of all, just on Trudeau's life and legacy here. And then more specifically, I'm wondering what role you think Trump played in forcing this move now because obviously, like, his time in office had to end eventually. But Polly have. And Freeland pointed to the Trump tariffs as a factor in either calling for him to go or her decision to resign from the Cabinet.

[Ben Rhodes]

Yeah, I mean, I'll start with a negative, but then I want to pour one out for Justin Trudeau with some Positive look. I mean, he clearly is facing the headwinds that everybody's facing. And we'll talk about featuring throughout this podcast. It's not good for incumbents. More than that, though, clearly he's lost touch. Right. He's been there for almost a decade, and you get a sense when a leader has just kind of lost the thread. And he's clearly kind of not been connected with the issues that Canadians are pissed off about. No surprise. That's cost of living, that's affordable housing. And his maneuvers to address issues have increasingly not only missed the mark, they seem to just not be what people are looking for.

[Tommy Vitor]

And antagonize his coalition.

[Ben Rhodes]

Antagonize his own coalition. So it was time for him to step aside. I will say we're living in an age where people are just dunking on the libs. And so Trudeau's gonna get dunked on a bunch. Join the club. Let's remember the Liberal Party was dead and buried. Came in third place in the election before Justin Trudeau. This guy came not out of nowhere because he's a Trudeau, he's a son of. But, you know, he's a young guy who came in, took over the party, got elected. And look, he did a lot of good things over the course of the decade. You know, he definitely elevated Canada's profile globally, did a lot of good things for climate. I mean, the carbon tax was one thing he was unpopular for, but I mean, he's really moved Canada, which is a fossil fuel producing country, in the direction of being a good actor on climate. There was some good economic years there. Obviously, he was welcoming to refugees during the refugee crisis and at a very important time, foreign policy. Not big defense spenders, but they've been out there on the right issues. Right. And standing up for democracy. We've talked about him willing to do things the United States wasn't willing to do and calling out Modi for the kinds of things he was doing inside of Canadian affairs, strong support of Ukraine. So stepping back and I full disclosure, not only we had Tudor on the pod, his chief of staff for his entire tenure. Katie Telford's a good friend of mine and poor enough for Katie. She did a great job. But, you know, they can feel good about this. Full stop now. What? You know, nine years. Nine years. It's just a long time. I think that Trump had something to do with it in the sense that Trudeau was very vulnerable. He was going to limp into the next election. Yeah, it didn't make any sense to me. That he was going to run again. It seemed like he wanted to host the next G7 in Canada and get through that. But, you know, he was teetering. And then Trump came in and I think was kind of the final straw because Freeland said in that letter resigning, I just disagree with how you're approaching the Trump threat.

[Tommy Vitor]

Yeah, he was offering basically, I think it was a two month tax holiday to give Canadians some economic relief. And she was like, no, we need that money to prepare to harden the border and pay for all these things Trump's going to demand out of us or else he's going to slap tariffs on Canada.

[Ben Rhodes]

Yeah. And so, you know, you could say Trump helped accelerate this and bring it about. I will say for Trudeau, can you imagine Barack Obama, Donald Trump and Joe Biden and then Donald Trump again?

[Tommy Vitor]

Like, come on, man, just give me.

[Ben Rhodes]

One leader to deal with. Right. And so, you know, it'll be interesting who comes next. You know, Freeland, leading candidate, Melanie Jolie, the Foreign Minister. It's a.

[Tommy Vitor]

Mark Carney, the foreign head of the.

[Ben Rhodes]

Bank of Canada, a climate hawk, too. But look, that may not be the best. That may be a bit of a poison chalice, right, for them.

[Tommy Vitor]

Yeah, yeah.

[Ben Rhodes]

Because the conservatives are up 25 points. Pierre Poliev is, is really right wing. And I thought Stephen Harper, who was the guy before Trudeau, was pretty right wing.

[Tommy Vitor]

This guy, he's like a friendly right winger.

[Ben Rhodes]

This guy's kind of Tea Party ish, MAGA type guy in Canada. Remember those trucks that were parked in Ottawa? This guy was kind of on board.

[Tommy Vitor]

With that, defender of them.

[Ben Rhodes]

So, okay, good luck with that. Canada. You can get on the MAGA train with the rest of us. By the way, none of these people are gonna save you from Trump. No, he's gonna do the tariffs. He's gonna talk shit to you. Anyway, so this idea that, yeah, Trudeau may have been handling it wrong, but I don't think there's the right answer. So I hope for the sake of the Liberal Party that they pick a good leader and they mount a strong showing because you don't want right wing dominance of that country. But I also don't think that there's some magic solution to Trump for them.

[Tommy Vitor]

No, I don't either. I mean, I think to the extent Trudeau made a mistake, it's the one that every leader makes. He probably hung on a little too long.

[Ben Rhodes]

Yeah.

[Tommy Vitor]

You got to wonder, if he'd gotten out six months ago, would that have given the Liberal Party a chance to kind of get its feet under it faster and, you know, be prepared for this election maybe. It certainly would have prevented this scenario where there's just kind of a leadership vacuum right as Trump is coming in and they're not going to know how to deal with them. It's worth noting that, you know, Krista Freeland, deputy Prime Minister, finance Minister, was singled out by Jared Kushner in Kushner's book. He disliked her for being kind of like a hard edged negotiator in the USMCA talk. So credit to her.

[Ben Rhodes]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Tommy Vitor]

But, yeah. In a press conference Tuesday, Trump said he was considering using economic force to make Canada the 51st state of the United States. The good news is he rejected the question of whether he'd use military force to make Canada a U.S. state.

[Ben Rhodes]

So I will say to the Jared Kushner thing, one of Trudeau's accomplishments is the USMCA trade agreement where they basically, I mean, tricked Trump into thinking he got a big win by basically just rolling over NAFTA and the tpp. So that was pretty savvy with Christopher Freeland and Trudeau and Katie and they, they, they, you know, this time around, though, I don't think they're gonna be able to do that. And so it's, it's gonna be rough. It's gonna be rough ride, I think.

[Tommy Vitor]

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[Ben Rhodes]

Idiot.

[Tommy Vitor]

The other story that is just truly remarkable. It's got to update everybody on what's happening in South Korea. So just a quick backstory. Back in December, we covered South Korean President Yoon Suk Yul's decision to declare martial law that was quickly voted down by Parliament soon after he was impeached. Two weeks after Yoon's impeachment, the acting president who took his place was impeached because the acting president refused to name more judges to South Korea's Constitutional Court. And that matters because that court will ultimately rule on whether to remove Yoon from office. They'll also rule on whether to remove the impeached acting president, by the way. But there's time for that. Yes, but there's supposed to be nine members on the court. It's only six now, so the opposition doesn't want to have to be a unanimous vote. So now South Korea has a new New acting president. I think it's their third in three weeks. But somehow the story gets crazier. So the investigators from South Korea's Corruption Investigations Office for high ranking officials or CIO office, they summoned union for questioning about whether or not he actually tried to stage a couple. Yoon refused. So the CIO got a warrant to detain him for questioning. But Yoon's lawyers argue that the CIO doesn't have the authority to investigate him or question him in any way. And so when the CIO sent a bunch of its members, its agents, investigators to Yoon's house to try to interview him or bring him in for questioning, Yoon's security guards physically blocked them. I think they made one of those.

[Ben Rhodes]

They made a human chain.

[Tommy Vitor]

They made human chain, those look, Hands Around America things. They also, I think they set up a bunch of buses as barricades. They put barbed wire on Yoon's home. I mean, it's crazy. I imagine though, like an analogy for listeners thinking, like, what are you talking about? Imagine like Bob Mueller rounded up a bunch of cops during the Mueller probe and trying to like go to the White House.

[Ben Rhodes]

Well, I mean, we could find out when Casp Patel shows up at crooked.

[Tommy Vitor]

And we chain of crooked staffers. That'd be nice if they do that for us. So eventually the CIO office, the investigators gave up and they just stopped trying to bring him in for questioning. By the way, in the background of all of this, Ben, South Korea had this horrific plane crash over the holiday. I think it was December 29th. 179 people on this Jeju Airlines flight were killed. Investigators don't know what happened. They're still trying to figure it out. So the second acting president is now charged with kind of handling this crisis internally for the country. So Ben, just stepping back, you see a lot of people, experts quoted in stories about Yoon's insane behavior the last month or so saying, actually it'll be okay. We have faith in South Korea's democracy and its institutions will hold and they'll work things out. But it's pretty precarious. And I do think it shows the way that someone like Yoon, who is shameless, like strident and willing to do and say anything to stay in power, can exploit gaps in their system that is supposed to hold him accountable. You know, he's basically exploiting this period of time between the national assembly voting to impeach and the court deciding whether he's removed to create mass chaos. And it feels a little familiar to us.

[Ben Rhodes]

I guess it's completely insane. This story I mean, this will be a theme of this entire podcast, but probably the next four years.

[Tommy Vitor]

Four years they've been 28.

[Ben Rhodes]

Because this guy, first of all, to your point about his psychology, I don't think he's left this residence since, like, the coup attempt. So talk about TV show. Not to make light of it, but just what is he doing? He's like the man in the high Castle, like, walking around with, like, the presidential detail just, you know, doing human chains to prevent him.

[Tommy Vitor]

Did you know he moved the residents from the Blue House to the Defense Ministry?

[Ben Rhodes]

Yeah, yeah.

[Tommy Vitor]

Which actually is very unpopular because it's more like in downtown Seoul and pissed everybody off because now traffic's worse.

[Ben Rhodes]

Yeah, well, imagine a guy just in the middle of the biggest city in the country, just holed up, and look, at some point, the die will be cast. I mean, I don't think this guy has enough support to mount some extra constitutional challenge, but who knows? He's kind of. He's holding out in the hopes that this judicial process can get slowed down. They're impeaching acting presidents now. These are not the strongest leaders I've noticed.

[Tommy Vitor]

The opposition is impeaching everyone they can get their hands on.

[Ben Rhodes]

So it is a crisis that has its own momentum of just generating more crisis. And something is going to have to kind of be the turning point, and it's probably gonna have to be the resolution of this guy's status, like, he's gonna get arrested, and we are all gonna move on and have an election. Until they do that, they're in this precarious position full stop. I think the bigger challenge here is that this is a volatile part of the world. I mean, if you're Kim Jong Un and you're looking at this, you're thinking, is now the time I start kind of poking the bear here with some provocative actions. I got Trump coming in. We're one Trump press conference away from Trump musing that maybe Kim Jong Un should take over South Korea as he's a strong leader. These are things that we have to start entertaining our head that this could actually, the chaos continues like this, present some kind of opportunity for at least a provocation from Kim Jong Un. It's certainly not good for the United States to have one of its anchor allies in Asia admired in this kind of complete chaos. So she.

[Tommy Vitor]

Tony Blinken was just there, and he had to do a press conference, I think, with the foreign minister. Yeah, he kept getting asked about this. I mean, the news out of it was that Tony said a thousand North Korean troops have been killed in Ukraine, which is pretty eye popping number. And also that the Russians were giving the North Koreans a bunch of technology, including I think, you know, military training equipment, including space and satellite technology, I think as we sort of predicted on this show. But Tony's kind of like has to account for why the US made this big bet on Yoon and this rapprochement between South Korea and Japan. What they thought was like a legacy issue.

[Ben Rhodes]

I'm sure that then when this trip was planned in the summer, it was like a legacy, like victory lap. And yeah, this is a mess. I mean, there's no other way to put it. And South Korea has been pretty resilient. They resisted the coup attempt, but they don't seem to have a clear process for handling this phase of things. Or at least it's like the U.S. it's like you said, you assume that someone's gonna abide by the norms. So like, you assume this guy's gonna present himself to the prosecutor's office or be arrested when people show up to arrest him. And once one guy doesn't abide by the norms, you're in like unchartered territory.

[Tommy Vitor]

That's exactly right. And I read that it could take six months for the court to make a decision on whether to remove Yoon. That creates a lot of space for trouble between now and then. And South Korean politics are extremely polarized and conservatives are rallying around Yoon in this moment because they hate the opposition and they like that he's fighting. And to your point about the kind of institutions not working perfectly, the CIO was established in 2021 following the impeachment of President park, who was removed in 2017 after a bunch of corruption and abuse of power charges. And so clearly they didn't work out all the kinks here.

[Ben Rhodes]

No, no.

[Tommy Vitor]

And again, like, we always talk about South Korea as this like economic miracle as compared to North Korea because. Because, you know, the armistice happens in 1953, ends the fighting, but not the war. And fast forward. And North Korea is this like backwards place where, you know, you can't see it from space. And South Korea is this unbelievably vibrant economy. But the, but that, that story is kind of incomplete. The truth is that from 1953 to 1987, South Korea went through this series of kind of military coups and dictatorships and authoritarian governments. And as recently as 1980, there were uprisings put down by violent force by the Korean military, where hundreds, if not thousands of people were killed. Like, depending on which account you Believe. And by the way, I think the US trained those South Korean troops. Of course, we did approve them being sent in to put down this protest. So there's just a very recent history of a martial law declaration ending very, very badly for South Korea. That's got to be terrifying.

[Ben Rhodes]

Yeah. I mean, this is a post Cold War, end of cold war kind of democracy story. And you can't, you know, we have to expand our imaginations in this period of history, you know, that these things aren't all settled. Right. Like democracies don't always stay democracies. Wars aren't always prevented. This is. You know, what's so interesting to me, Tommy, is that you've got this vibrant economy in this incredibly, almost like superpower pop culture. Right. With K pop and television. And yet they're politics. Politics is an absolute dumpster fire right now. I'm in a glass house here, so I'm not suggesting they're the only ones, but this is going to be a glass dumpster. Yeah. It's going to be hard to get out of. And Japan does not exactly have stable politics either. So this is not the best time for US Allies right now in Europe or Asia. We'll get to Europe next.

[Tommy Vitor]

Yeah. And look, I don't fault the Biden administration for trying to push this rapprochement between South Korea and Japan, but you do need to wonder the degree to which it might have contributed to the polarization and the anger and just the kind of zero sum nature of the party.

[Ben Rhodes]

Honestly. I mean, I wasn't inside those discussions now, obviously. But one of the reasons we pushed those rapprochements and we got meetings between the Japanese and South Koreans in the US but one of the things that the South Korean League, both South Korean presidents that we dealt with, the Obama administration, would tell us is I can only go so far without inviting like a real backlash here, you know, so that's not the precise cause of this. I mean, there's all kinds of overreach that this guy had, but it does show that particularly in democracies. You know, one thing we've all learned is you can't overly personalize these policies around one person, you know, because if that one person isn't bringing everybody else along, it's not going to be durable. I mean, that's certainly what's happened to a lot of things I worked on in government for sure.

[Tommy Vitor]

Yeah. One day you're singing American Pie at the state dinner, and the next day.

[Ben Rhodes]

You'Re barricaded around your, your house. You know.

[Tommy Vitor]

Yeah. Well, the good news is, Ben, Donald Trump's going to take charge and everything we fixed. So he did, he popped off a bunch over the break. He did a press conference today that really veered into crazy talk. So we're going to talk about those proposals seriously and cover them because I actually, I think they're, I think they're serious proposals.

[Ben Rhodes]

I think they're, they're not musings.

[Tommy Vitor]

So I guess we should. We also just assumed the presidency before being sworn in.

[Ben Rhodes]

Yeah.

[Tommy Vitor]

So that part complicates things. So let's start with the Greenland piece of this Ben. So on December 22, Trump announced his pick to be ambassador to Denmark. It was a truth social post, of course, and in that post he said, quote, for purposes of national security and freedom throughout the world, the United States of America feels that the ownership and control of Greenland is an absolute necessity, end quote. Folks probably remember Trump floated this idea back in 2019 as well. Greenland is currently an autonomous territory within the Kingdom of Denmark, but it primarily self governs except on matters of defense and foreign policy. Greenland's Prime Minister Muta Egul, did not take kindly to Trump's post, responding by saying that the country is, quote, not for sale. And if anything, Trump seemed to add more fuel to the fire in the political movement for Greenland's full independence. The prime minister signal in a New year's address that 2025 could be a year to remove, quote, the shackles of colonialism. But, you know, not helping matter. Don Jr. Visited Greenland today. He went with Charlie Kirk, the right wing fascist TPUSA guy, and this other dipshit from the transition team to shoot video for his podcast. Of course.

[Ben Rhodes]

By the way, the guy from the transition team is headed personnel. Yeah, the Sergio Gore is kind of random, right? Why is that guy there?

[Tommy Vitor]

I don't know why that guy. I think they all just like him. Like he was like a normie, I think, like Rubio guy maybe. And he just kind of got his way into the club. So like on a policy level, Ben, wanting to have ownership of Greenland is not crazy. I think thanks to climate change, the Arctic sea routes are opening up. Greenland is also melting and there's all these valuable natural resources, minerals, metals, etc. It hosts a US base, but talking about it like Trump does is crazy. Here's a clip from Trump's press conference Today, Tuesday the 7th.

[Ben Rhodes]

Can you assure the world that as you try to get control of these areas, you are not going to use military or economic coercion?

[Tommy Vitor]

No.

[Ben Rhodes]

Can you Tell us a little bit about what your plan is. Are you going to negotiate a new treaty? Are you going to ask the Canadians.

[Tommy Vitor]

To hold the vote?

[Ben Rhodes]

What.

[Tommy Vitor]

What is the strategy?

[Ben Rhodes]

I can't assure you. You're talking about Panama and Greenland. No, I can't assure you on either of those two. But I can say this. We need them for economic security. The Panama Canal is vital to our country. It's being operated by China.

[Tommy Vitor]

China.

[Ben Rhodes]

And we gave the Panama Canal to Panama. We didn't give it to China. Well, we need Greenland for national security purposes. I've been told that for a long time, long before I even ran. I mean, people have been talking about it for a long time. You have approximately 45,000 people there. People really don't even know if Denmark has any legal right to it, but if they do, they should give it up because we need it for national security. That's for the free world. I'm talking about protecting the free world. You look at. You don't even need binoculars. You look outside, you have China ships all over the place. You have Russian ships all over the place. We're not letting that happen. Whose binoculars is he talking about? Where would one be Sarah Palin? Where would one be using the binoculars?

[Tommy Vitor]

I'm not sure.

[Ben Rhodes]

From Greenland or from the United States.

[Tommy Vitor]

Iceland, maybe.

[Ben Rhodes]

I don't know the questioner about Google Earth.

[Tommy Vitor]

The questioner there is David Sanger from the New York Times. We know very well. You could tell. David asks this question, he gets the hard no. Like, the newsiest answer. Like, no, I will not rule out invading fucking Greenland and Panama. And you can tell it just doesn't register because that, that.

[Ben Rhodes]

That. That never happens. Like, people are usually careful.

[Tommy Vitor]

Oh, my God. Yeah, it's just wild. So we'll get to the Panama portion of this in a minute. I mean, again, he's probably blustering about a military invasion. I do not think he's kidding about wanting to control Greenland at all.

[Ben Rhodes]

I think this is going to be a relentless focus, and I'd say a couple of broad things that actually are gonna apply to Panama, too. But then on Greenland. First of all, this is a classic case of Trump won't ever stand up to a guy like Putin, but he'll push around 50,000 people in Greenland or Panama. Classic bully behavior, right?

[Tommy Vitor]

Denmark.

[Ben Rhodes]

Yeah, he's picking fights with Denmark and Panama and Canada. He would never actually pick a real fight with Russia or China. But then, secondly, I actually am really worried about this. I mean, I literally spent a lot of time thinking about this because he's, what, 78 years old? I mean, if you apply the logic of any aging narcissistic autocrat in all of human history, they all believe they need territorial conquest to be remembered a certain way.

[Tommy Vitor]

Right?

[Ben Rhodes]

To be on Mount Rushmore. He's a great leader. He's looking at Putin. He saw Putin take Crimea. Putin got a big boost in the polls. That kind of thing matters to Trump. I take this profoundly seriously. I believe him that he wants to get Greenland while he's president. I truly believe he wants to do that. And the same thing is true with Panama. And by the way, it is like if the US Suddenly Snapped its fingers and control Greenland tomorrow, there are tons of natural resources and strategic reasons why that would be beneficial. And I don't know what exactly his play is, because it's not really for sale. It's not like a real estate property that Denmark owns that they can sell to us. I think what he might want to do is to dangle a bunch of money in front of those 50,000 people and be like, hey, well, you can be part of the United States and we'll pour some money into you. We'll. He's probably trying to buy. I don't know what Don Jr. Is doing over there. What he might be doing is in addition to drugs.

[Tommy Vitor]

Just kidding.

[Ben Rhodes]

What he might be doing is. Yeah, no, just kidding. No libel happened here. Tylenol is what I meant exactly. We all take drugs like that on vacation. But find the person in Greenland who says, yeah, we wanna be with the Americans. And then suddenly you have a basis for a dispute and you say, well, look, these people would rather be American. And so we can all laugh at this. Cause it is kind of funny. But I also think that we'll be talking about this a lot in the coming weeks.

[Tommy Vitor]

You know, it, like, sounded ridiculous in 2019. Now I think it's not at all. And I think Bloomberg tried to take the idea seriously, too. And I think they came to the same conclusion you did about how the process might work. Like, you'd kind of want or need Greenland to gain independence first and then decide to sell itself to the U.S. yeah, they weren't thinking about the invasion option. I mean, they also. They also tried to estimate the cost of Greenland. They noted that its GDP in 2021 was roughly $3.2 billion. And then it gets about 600 million a year from Denmark annually. So I don't know how you value a country.

[Ben Rhodes]

But here's the thing. Every time he talks about it, he says It's a national security issue. I think that means he wants to put money in the defense budget. So the defense budget's a trillion dollars?

[Tommy Vitor]

Yeah, it's easy.

[Ben Rhodes]

That is chump change. What, x of the GDP of Greenland or the $550 million subsidy they get from Denmark? So there's a lot of money that he could play with here.

[Tommy Vitor]

But how do we do this valuation? Are we doing a PE ratio? Are we doing a multiple on EBITDA or square footage? You know, Greenland should call themselves a tech company. They get like a 20x multiple.

[Ben Rhodes]

I mean, the other thing is like Trump, we've seen him bust norms and get away with it, right? You guys had a great episode on January 6th yesterday. Why wouldn't he do the same thing internationally? Like, why wouldn't he roll up the US Navy to wherever it can actually land in Greenland and just say it's art? I mean, this is a man who literally sent a mob to the capitol and then got elected president. So you think he's worried about the norms against invading Greenland? I don't think so.

[Tommy Vitor]

No. I don't either. I think we should lease it though. Just in case they release new arc bomb.

[Ben Rhodes]

Well, yeah, it's like the electric cars, you know, like you gotta wait for the battery to get better. So two year lease.

[Tommy Vitor]

Yeah, that's right. Man, this is bad.

[Ben Rhodes]

Foreign.

[Tommy Vitor]

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[Ben Rhodes]

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[Tommy Vitor]

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[Ben Rhodes]

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[Tommy Vitor]

So just speaking of this, you know, places we might invade. Listeners also probably remember Trump being very angry about the Panama Canal back in the day. He says now the US Is being ripped off by Panama and that Panama is charging US Commercial and naval vessels exorbitant fees for traffic for going through the canal. Trump said if the rates are not lowered, quote, we will demand that the Panama Canal be returned to the US in full, quickly and without question. So some quick history and background on the Panama Canal. It was built between 1904 and 1914. The US completed the project. It was started by the French. It spans 50 miles through like, you know, mountainous terrain. It required workers working in brutal conditions or rampant mosquito borne diseases like yellow fever and malaria. Tens of thousands of workers died over the entirety of the French and American construction effort, mostly workers from the Caribbean. The US controlled the canal until Jimmy Carter signed two treaties in 1977 that handed over control of the canal to the Panamanians while also guaranteeing US Access to it. Panama took sole control of the Panama Canal in 1999. So for context, 14,000 ships go through the Panama Canal per year, including 40% of all U.S. container traffic. We make up 75% of the canal's total traffic. So there is some truth to the idea that rates have gone up. That is because there was an extreme drought that dried up the lake that allowed that, you know, has the water that goes into the canal and allows it to function. Thank you, Climate Change. I'm not aware of any evidence that the US Is being charged more money than other countries. I don't know if you are, but Ben, my theory for why Trump is obsessed with the Panama Canal is that he remembers when this was a huge political issue, right? Yes, it was before the Big Macs, the kind of heart of his brain and the Diet Cokes. Reagan used to attack Jimmy Carter on this all the time. The mantra was, we built it, we paid for it, and we're gonna keep it. If you read any Rick Perlstein book, I was gonna.

[Ben Rhodes]

You stole my take.

[Tommy Vitor]

We read the same shit. Okay. No. So, like, anyway, Carter. He called it Carter.

[Ben Rhodes]

We called it Keep Going.

[Tommy Vitor]

It folded into, I think, Cold War hysteria about Russian influence or Soviet influence in Latin America. But again, I see the strategic value of Greenland. I don't get being mad about the canal.

[Ben Rhodes]

I think you're exactly right. And we did not coordinate these takes before, and people just. We actually totally agree on this one. I was thinking about Reagan Land, the Rick Perlstein book. Unfortunately, I was consuming Rick Perlstein's Twitter fights with Mark Andreessen over the holidays, which is kind of crazy.

[Tommy Vitor]

What did Perlstein say that Andreessen said at a dinner party? Something about OxyContin.

[Ben Rhodes]

Something about people from basically poor white people who read Hillbilly should. Like, he's glad there's oxy and video games. And video games to distract them from being so pathetic.

[Tommy Vitor]

Yeah, that's a shitty thing to say.

[Ben Rhodes]

It was a shitty thing to say.

[Tommy Vitor]

Andreessen denies it. We should.

[Ben Rhodes]

And he denies it. That's why there's a Twitter fight. It's actually kind of entertaining. But there is a. If people want to get more background, it's actually really worth reading the Pan Canal section of that Reagan Land book because it's kind of the origin of this kind of uber right wing, fuck the world jingoism, you know, jingoism. Reagan really did use it. He was flown around the country in a. A private jet making these speeches about how awful this was, a betrayal of everything. And that was clearly a time when Donald Trump was formative. Right. He was soaking in. And I think basically what probably happened here is, yes, China has more and more influence in Latin America generally, not just Panama, everywhere. Right? Trump gets one briefing about how the Chinese have some interest somewhere in the cause. They're not running the Panama Canal. He's lying about that. But they have economic presence in Panama. He's like, fuck it, give it back to us. And this is just red meat for right wingers. So I don't think that there's some military play here. I think I take Greenland more seriously. I actually think this is a much dumber play for him too, because the Chinese do have more and more influence in Latin America. And this is the kind of thing that is a gift to the Chinese. They go to Panama, they go to all these other countries, say, look at the Americans, they're reverting back to their imperial Cold War assholeish selves. We're just trying to make deals down here. We're building new ports. So I think the Trump years are gonna be a massive boon to Chinese influence in Latin America, because Latin America hates this shit. The Panamanians, it's in their land, it's their canal. Not just because of the treaty. It's an absurd proposition. The United States would somehow be running a piece of a waterway in Panama in 2024 based in Cuba. Exactly. I thought the same thing. Right. So I don't know, like he, I could see some dumb thing where he like puts sanctions or tariffs on Panama, but to what end? Like, what is he. I don't even get what he's asking for. Like, do we really want to operate the Panama Canal again with the US military, like just to, you know, usher some help out like Mersk or something? Do we want to collect fees on the Maersk shipping containers? He's not even saying what he wants there. So I think this is kind of just weird right wing red meat. But I don't know. He'll do something, I assume.

[Tommy Vitor]

Right. And it's also worth noting that Reagan won the election. He became president for eight years. No, I know he didn't take back the canal.

[Ben Rhodes]

We may just be the libs who just point out that these things are more immoral and unethical while like Trump vacuums up the canal in Greenland and gets his fucking face in Matt Rushmore.

[Tommy Vitor]

Yeah, but I think Reagan ultimately decided that, you know, okay, he was a big cold warrior. He was worried about Nicaragua and El Salvador and you know, Soviet influence in other places. And he thought maybe I shouldn't actually rip off the Panamanians and try to make them an ally.

[Ben Rhodes]

And that was part of what. Yeah, that was absolutely Reagan's calculus. That was certainly Carter's calculus. And again, Cold War thinking. This is dumb because the Chinese are going to get much more influence not just in Panama, but across that region because of this.

[Tommy Vitor]

I was reading about the Panama Canal just to go deep on this. Apparently when the French. It really is that. I mean, it's a, it's an incredible engineering accomplishment done on the backs of, you know, massacring tens of thousands of people through a lot through mosquito borne diseases, but also just unbelievable working conditions. These guys are like literally dynamiting mountains. The dynamite would Go off too early, it would blow them up, there would be landslides, etc. When the French were working on the Panama Canal, they gave up. Eventually all these people were getting sick, so they set up field hospitals and the patients in the field hospitals were lying in bed. And what would happen is like these like army ants or something would crawl up the bedpost and crawl all over them. It just drove them insane. Right. So what the French did, truly. So what they did though, was they put the four corners of the beds in little water cups, which prevented the ants from crawling up, but created the perfect grounds for mosquitoes to lay their eggs, which drastically exacerbated the disease issue. The yellow fever and the malaria, etc. One of the innovations that the US had was actually, I think, figuring out that these were mosquito borne diseases, figuring out, you know, mitigation efforts, putting up screens in like the, you know, the lowest paid workers homes, like putting oil in standing water, etc to try to defeat the diseases. But yeah, nasty stuff.

[Ben Rhodes]

Yeah. Well, now we, now we want it back, I guess.

[Tommy Vitor]

Let's get that back. You know, Woodrow Wilson, I think as the one who pressed the button in the Oval Office that set off the dynamite that detonated the dike that was holding back the water and like finally flooded the canal.

[Ben Rhodes]

That's a cool thing to do. Have you seen the Panama Canal?

[Tommy Vitor]

No.

[Ben Rhodes]

It's pretty extraordinary. Like we went there was a Summit of the Americas down there and there are these huge locks, right? These huge things that, you know, open and close and the ships go through. It's pretty cool.

[Tommy Vitor]

It is.

[Ben Rhodes]

So maybe Trump just wants to press the button and he just like loves big hardware. Close the locks.

[Tommy Vitor]

Just let him open the thing. All right, Ben, we've talked about a bunch of ways the world kind of feels unsteady at the moment. One reason why is a guy named Elon Musk. So Elon, he's taken his global interference project global. We talked about this a bit on Pod Save America yesterday, but I think you and I could really geek out and dig in. But let's focus on Germany, the uk, Canada, anywhere else you want. In Germany, Elon has been attacking Chancellor Olaf Scholz, the Social Democrat. He's endorsed the far right AfD party both on Twitter and then in an op ed, he wrote for this conservative online newspaper owned by Axel Springer, the same company that owns politico in the U.S. remember, though, all of these other political parties in Germany refuse to work with the AfD because they are so extreme. German intelligence considers parts of the AFD an extremist group. And some of the leaders, they just keep accidentally using banned Nazi era slogans at political rallies. Just like you hate when that happens, when a Nazi slogan just kind of slips out as you're campaigning in Thuringia. In the uk, Musk has shown support for the right wing Reform Party. He met with reform leader Nigel Farage at Mar A Lago. Farage said Elon floated donating up to $100 million to the reform Party. Hilariously, though, Elon then said Farage, quote, doesn't have what it takes to lead reform because Farage isn't a fan of this violent right wing thug named Tommy Robinson, who we can get into or not, depending on where this goes. Elon has been attacking Prime Minister Keir Starmer and the Labour Party, most recently dredging up this horrible story from over a decade ago, about 1400 or more kids, young girls who were sexually abused in what came to be called the grooming gang scandal. It is a truly awful story. The local police failed to protect these kids on every level, in part because they were worried about singling out Pakistani men in a way that could be perceived as racist. But Elon has decided to really pick up and demagogue this, ignoring the fact that the Tory Party was of course running the government during this period. But Trump is saying, like Elon Starmer is to blame, he deserves to be in prison, etc. And then finally in Canada, back in December, Elon tweeted about Pierre Poliev, the Conservative Party leader. He said, quote, seems great. In response to a tweet from some Canadian professor about Poliev. That was a clip of him advocating for bombing Iran or supporting an Israeli military strike on Iran. I thought MAGA was anti war now, but I guess not for Elon. So, Ben, heads of state in France, Germany, Norway and the uk, they've all responded to Elon Musk in some way in the press. Here's a clip of Keir Starmer responding to Elon's attacks at a press conference that was supposed to be about fixing Britain's National Health Service.

[Ben Rhodes]

On the question of Elon Musk, look, I think most people are more interested.

[Tommy Vitor]

In what's going to happen to the nhs, frankly, than what's happening on Twitter. Those that are spreading lies and misinformation.

[Ben Rhodes]

As far and as wide as possible, they're not interested in victims, they're interested in themselves.

[Tommy Vitor]

So, Ben, I think the question here we should try to answer is why? Why do you think Elon is doing this?

[Ben Rhodes]

I honestly think that Elon has gotten. There's an ego answer and then a practical answer and the ego answer. He's gotten this taste of world power and domination. And I think he's got a personality type. Everything that you see about the guy that is kind of this boundless ego and ambition, and he feels clearly like he bought and won an election year. I'm sure that in his head, Elon Musk thinks he made the difference for Trump, and maybe he did, actually certainly.

[Tommy Vitor]

Bought his place in the administration.

[Ben Rhodes]

And then he's looking at the world and he's seeing one thing that people have to understand, particularly our American listeners, is that there's not a lot of money in politics in these places. Like, Nobody's ever spent $100 million on a British election. Not even close to it, right? Germany, France. And if he can find ways, if you have unlimited $100 million to him is like 100 bucks to you and me, right? If he can find ways to just plow money into places, he's like, well, I can become the global oligarch, not just the American oligarch, if I can start picking winners. Now, what he's picking is consistently the far right. I mean, the AfD in Germany, the National Front in France, whatever nutcase, the Reform Party, or even the nuttier guy in the uk, the right wing guy in Canada. So this is really dangerous. I mean, I think, like Greenland. We have to take this seriously because Elon Musk has the money to do this. Now what countries need to do is prevent it. It's illegal in the UK, for instance, for a foreigner to just donate $100 million to political party. What's not illegal, though, is you spend $100 million. You know, you set up a media outlet, you set up some ngo, and it's all to promote the Reform Party. But what these countries need to do if they're serious about this, is to fortify their own electoral systems so that they're not like us, so that there's not the Supreme Court.

[Tommy Vitor]

Just like we're a cautionary tale.

[Ben Rhodes]

Yeah, don't become us. The Supreme Court under Citizens United allowed for unlimited money and unlimited dark money. But what he's showing us is this ambition to fuck around everywhere, this clear far right preference, right? This guy clearly has far right tendencies. Those are the only parties he's supporting. If I were to find a practical reason. You and I have talked about this offline a bit, Tommy. He seems to want to be disrupting everything. And I think he believes that it will serve his economic Interests, whether that's his investments that he's going to make into crypto, whether that's the kind of state like power of Starlink and Tesla and SpaceX. He clearly thinks disruption helps him in some way. I'm not inside of his businesses or what his ambitions are for crypto. I mean, if you like crypto and you see that as a place you're going to put more and more money, you kind of want governments to fail because then people don't rely on government currencies and they go to places like crypto, so that could enter into it. But I take this, the Los Angeles Tommy is man. Elon Musk is simultaneously what people used to admire about the United States, like an immigrant entrepreneur who comes in as well. But this has got to make. People must fucking hate us. By the end of the Trump term. I don't know how people are gonna feel about the United States in most of these places, because the arrogance of just going and messing around in their politics and with no regard even to the history in Germany. You're talking about the AfD, you're talking about people with neo Nazi roots. Just because it kind of entertains you online is really grotesque.

[Tommy Vitor]

Yeah. I mean the. We've talked a lot about the AfD. I mean, I think it's worth noting, like Tommy Robinson, this, this kind of online pot stirring extremist in the uk, like he was too extreme for Nigel Farage. I think Farage left the UKIP party because they were obsessed with Tommy Robbins.

[Ben Rhodes]

Who's a comparison. It'd be like that. Who's that Andy Semite who went to Mar a Lago and had like. Nick Fuentes.

[Tommy Vitor]

Nick Fuentes.

[Ben Rhodes]

It's like that level of trolley fucking goon, right? Yes.

[Tommy Vitor]

If Nick Fuentes was mixed with a soccer hooligan.

[Ben Rhodes]

Yeah.

[Tommy Vitor]

Who was really violent and gotten lots of fights and had gone to jail a bunch of times. I think for there was some domestic abuse. I think there was a big mortgage fraud thing.

[Ben Rhodes]

Andrew Tate, Nick Fuentes.

[Tommy Vitor]

Yeah.

[Ben Rhodes]

And. Yeah, yeah.

[Tommy Vitor]

And the irony about Tommy Robinson, I think, like sensibly, Elon says he likes him because he's standing up to the grooming gangs and like fighting the woke forces that allowed them to fester. Tommy Robinson went to one of the trials of these grooming gangs, filmed it in contravention of British rules that are supposed to keep the jury from getting tarnished or learning about things that are happening. And also rules they have set up to protect the identity of victims and was live streaming it. And they arrested him for that. And his actions that day almost got the case overturned. So he almost helped get these guys off for their horrific abuse of children because of his actions. So, like, the idea that he is some noble, you know, protector of young kids is, like, completely backwards.

[Ben Rhodes]

Yeah, I mean, I, I think one thing, you know, I was ruminating on this over the break too, with friend and lawyer of the pod, Mike Gottlieb. You know, you look at Elon right now, and I think part of what is probably weighing on people, you know, certainly pots of the world listeners, is like, they're winning. Like, they're winning. Like they, they're these fucking ketamine taking crypto bro assholes, right, who like, live in a world with no values and no guardrails and no behavioral constraints. Like, we have to acknowledge that they're winning. They run the United States of America as of, you know, a couple weeks from now. And right now, you see, even the media doesn't know how to process it, you know, like, so it's, you know, it's like, what is Elon? You know, there's a kind of a. Because people kind of worship wealth and celebrity in this country. It's. It's viewed as interesting and not dangerous that Elon is doing all this. Nobody's pointing out that, you know, if Barack Obama or Joe Biden or George W. Bush, by the way, had like the richest person in the world hanging out with them with huge government responsibilities, with huge conflicts of interest and huge ambitions to meddle in the politics of other countries on behalf of far right parties, the world would have imploded. And now it's like, how interesting is this, right? I acknowledge that they're winning. I acknowledge that they just won. I acknowledge that more people want them to be in charge than want Democrats to be in charge. That does not make it right. And that does not mean that they're gonna win in the end, whenever the end is right. And we have to remind ourselves of that. These people wanna create a sense of inevitability, that they have so much money and so much power that it's just gonna be their world. And I don't think we have to accept that. And that's why I think it's good. You know, if I was Schultz and not that Schultz is gonna be around for that long, and Macron and Starmer and all, they better protect themselves while they can.

[Tommy Vitor]

Yeah, Yeah. I wanna talk about the response. I was thinking about the theories of Y2. It's like, maybe he's just a genuinely unstable Guy who does like drugs and spends too much time on Twitter and is easily swayed by a right wing agitprop. Maybe he is kind of a fascist and just has like a genuine like for these people. Maybe he's softening up leaders that Trump doesn't like on Trump's behalf in some way. Maybe there's a business interest. I know Tesla's got a manufacturing plant in Germany. I don't know if that's relevant. Misinformation on Twitter played this, a big role in those far right riots in the UK last summer when Elon was tweeting things like civil war is inevitable. That led to a government crackdown on misinformation on social media, which I imagine, you know, hits him in his pocket because of, you know, the financials of X. Regardless, I'm with you. Like, these leaders need to figure out a way to respond. I think Starmer was good in his press conference the other day on the facts of this case, but the problem for him is Elon doesn't care about the facts and he's going to move on to the next thing and just keep demagoguing them. Olaf Schultz said something like, you don't feed the trolls. And I just think that is so wrong mentality.

[Ben Rhodes]

Yeah, it's not going to go away. It's like Resistance 1.0, thinking all, you know, like, like, we got to, you know, what you need to do is get. I mean, what I'd be doing is fortifying the barriers to foreign money and politics because that's a practical thing you can do. But you, you're more like in this, you know, whatever verse. I mean, I think you raised a really important question, Tommy. Like, is Elon Musk in, like the conductor of the social media, like Netherworld, or has he had his own brain broken by it? Yeah, and I don't know. That's a scary question because I don't know the answer to it.

[Tommy Vitor]

I think it's a really important question. And judging by the people he constantly interacts with, I think it like, leans the ladder.

[Ben Rhodes]

Yeah.

[Tommy Vitor]

Like, he could tweak the algorithm behind the scenes, but he's like responding to just weirdos.

[Ben Rhodes]

Yeah. I mean, this is a guy like, you know, cat turd takes like, seem to really land with him.

[Tommy Vitor]

You know, someone pointed out, I was reading an article that pointed out that he was fighting with a parody account for the cat that lives outside number 10 about free speech in the UK. It's like, what is happening here? But I was texting with a friend who's got, like, high up connections at Labor. And, like, I kind of think what Keir Starboard needs is some burly drunk guy from Liverpool on the street shouting something like, fuck off, billionaire Elon Twat. And have that go viral and be the framing around everything to do with his meddling in UK politics. Like, you gotta fight nationalism with nationalism.

[Ben Rhodes]

You need some new. Yeah, you need some new tactics and new approaches here, like, beyond. Just don't feed the trolls. I mean, and the reality is this is not gonna go away. It's like the Greenland thing. Like, these guys, these tech bros have a taste for. They've always thought they could run things better than the politicians. Right. And now I think a guy like Elon thinks that the opening is there for him to actually try to run the world. And the Marc Andreessens of the world and the David Sackses, these guys, they made an investment.

[Tommy Vitor]

They're VCs.

[Ben Rhodes]

Yeah. And they think they know better than they want to return how to run things. And, you know they're going to try to run countries.

[Tommy Vitor]

Last thing, that's kind of fun. Ben, on the Trump stuff. So he. They named a Fox News host named Tammy Bruce to be the State Department spokesman. Did you see that she has all these tweets.

[Ben Rhodes]

Yeah.

[Tommy Vitor]

Attacking Marco. She called him Little Marco seven times. She referred to him as, quote, a kid waving frantically in the back of the room trying to prove relevance. She called him a tool of the establishment and an inexperienced senator who has never run a thing in his life.

[Ben Rhodes]

If you want proof that Marco Rubio. I was talking to somebody who, like, is in one of these places where they kind of like Marco Rubio's foreign policy more than Trump's. So they're like, well, don't you think Rubio. I'm like, this guy from day one. Trump is going to set out. Not only will Rubio not have any influence, but they're going to humiliate him. I mean, you know, Trump doesn't forget this stuff. Like, Trump didn't forget the 2016 election. So he's basically going to humiliate this guy. And this selection proves it.

[Tommy Vitor]

The new spokeswoman for the State Department in 2016 said she, quote, had to mute Marco. I think that tells you all you need to know about how she'll approach the job. Okay, we're going to take a quick break, but before we do, it has been four years since the insurrection, and we're still examining the reach and the limits of presidential power. This week on strict scrutiny, Leah, Melissa and Kate are breaking down what presidential power actually looks like, why it matters, and these sometimes very unexpected ways we keep power in check. Tune into this timely episode now only on the strict scrutiny feed Positive World is brought to you by Helix. I love my Helix mattress. Actually, my mom is coming to visit tomorrow. She's going to sleep on our Helix mattress. Every time she does, she says, that's the most comfortable bed ever. I love that bed. I say, you know what, mom, thank you to Helix. She says, okay. The helix lineup offers 20 unique mattresses including award winning luxe and ultra premium elite collections. Helix plus a mattress designed for big and tall sleepers. Helix Kids mattresses designed for growing bodies, endorsed by child sleep experts. So how will you know which Helix mattress works best for you and your body? Take the Helix Sleep Quiz and find your perfect mattress in under two minutes. I took the Helix Sleep Quiz. It was so long ago. I have no clue what I got, but I wanted. I need something firm. I'm a stomach sleeper and they have me covered. Yeah, probably the Dawn Lux. That's what I got. It's probably Don Lux too if you don't want to take my word for it. Helix has been awarded the number one mattress picked by GQ and Wired magazine. It is even recommended by multiple leading chiropractors and doctors of sleep medicine as a go to solution for improving your sleep. Get yourself a Helix mattress. You will sleep better, you will be more comfortable. It will be the best upgrade you make. Because you know what, these Helix mattresses, they're going to last forever. Not literally. You know what I'm saying? They're going to last a very long time. It's money well spent. Go to helixsleep.comworld for 25% off site wide and two free dream pillows with mattress purchase. That's helixsleep.comworld for25% off site wide and two free Dream Pillows with mattress purchase. Helixsleep.comworld what's your new Year's resolution?

[Ben Rhodes]

To improve your relationships, find a better job. We often make these commitments without first exploring a deeper question. How do I define a life well lived? Hidden Brain will do just that with our new January series, Wellness 2.0. Start the new year on a strong foot. Listen and subscribe to Hidden Brain wherever you get your podcasts Foreign.

[Tommy Vitor]

We talked about the Trump administration. Let's talk about the Biden administration, starting with Sudan. Ben earlier today Tuesday, Secretary of State Tony Blinken released a statement on the civil war in Sudan which has been raging since April of 2023. Blinken said that one of the main paramilitary forces in the conflict, the RSF or Rapid Support Forces, had committed genocide. So a big determination. The statement says in part, quote, the RSF and allied militias have systematically murdered men and boys, even infants, on an ethnic basis and deliberately targeted women and girls from certain ethnic groups for rape and other forms of brutal sexual violence. Those same militias have targeted fleeing civilians, murdering innocent people escaping conflict, and prevented remaining civilians from accessing life saving supplies. So very clear cut statement there. Tens of thousands of people have been killed in Sudan in the civil war. Millions have been displaced in the course of the two years of this conflict. So, Ben, just reading this, a couple thoughts. I mean, obviously first we should talk about it, but this genocide declaration is going to infuriate anyone who wants to see Biden do something to stop the killing in Gaza or put any pressure on the Israelis to stop bombing. Right. Second, it was notable. Look, I'm glad they did this. It was notable though that this statement didn't put any real pressure on the UAE for funneling arms to the rsf. I can't remember if we talked about it on the show. There was that weird letter from the White house from Brett McGurk to Congress saying, quote, despite reports we have received suggesting the contrary has occurred to date, the UAE has informed the administration that it is not now transferring any weapons to the RSF and will not do so going forward. Sure. Seems to just. That all seems to absolve them.

[Ben Rhodes]

Yeah, and it's complete fueling itself. It's complete bullshit. I mean, the New York Times has a tremendous investigation where they used all kinds of sources, including overhead imagery and things. And actually even some of the, the companies that are sanctioned by the Biden administration have these connections to the way the UAE transits things across Africa. So to do this while running interference with Emiratis. I'm sorry, I mean, I'm glad they called this out, but ultimately, if this is a genocide, then presumably the people that are supporting the genocide should be held accountable. Now, I know that Gaza Echo is probably not good for the Biden administration either. Right? So I know, I guess, like, this is useful in spotlighting the horrific nature of the rsf. We should also point out that they are the kind of legacy of the Jandawid who were also found to be committing a genocide in Darfur way back when. These are some of the same characters, you know, and it may put additional pressure on the RSF internationally and that's good. But ultimately, you know, if you don't go after the people and the sources of support for the rsf. It's not going to be as impactful.

[Tommy Vitor]

Yeah. I was talking to an expert that we used to work with about Sudan before the break who was telling me that, like, the key to ending this war. It sounds like both sides know that this has gotten to a really bad place and there's not going to be a clear cut military victory. But you have to stop the UAE from arming the rsf. But associated with that, you have to stop this flow of gold from Sudan into the uae, because Sudan is, I believe, the fifth largest producer of gold in the world, and apparently nearly all of it flows through the UAE or the Russians. And now Sudan's doing all of its banking at Emirati banks. You have this weird scenario where they're like, there's RSF controlled gold mines and they're flowing all that gold into the uae, but also the government is doing its banking in the uae. So they're sort of like, funding both sides of this thing.

[Ben Rhodes]

Yeah.

[Tommy Vitor]

There's complicating things even more. The Saudis have an interest in Sudan. They get most of their meat and wheat from Sudan, so they want a compliant regime. The Egyptians have these deep military ties with Sudan. I think the current military leader of Sudan, like, went to military academy with General Sisi. And also the Egyptians want to make sure that the Nile is not messed with in any way because it flows through Sudan up into Egypt. So, long story short, it's this massive proxy war. And I think the challenge for the Biden team is Tom Perriello is trying his best to conduct some diplomacy, but he needs to be able to elevate this and get these regional actors to move, like the Saudis and the UAE and Egypt. And I think those actors probably know those countries, probably know that there were higher priorities.

[Ben Rhodes]

Yeah, yeah. Constantly. Especially with the uae. There are other US Foreign policy interests that are higher. The only thing I'd say here is I just don't understand the uae. They have so much money, they can weather the hit of a couple gold mines or whatever. The thing is, that is their interest here. So this is the deal that I would like to see. I'm not hopeful that Donald Trump's gonna prioritize.

[Tommy Vitor]

I'm with you.

[Ben Rhodes]

I'd like to see Donald Trump call NBZ and say, let's cut this guy off. And, you know, like, if you want to get credit for something, let's try to get credit for this.

[Tommy Vitor]

Make another part of the Abraham Accords or something like, sir, this could be a historic thing. You know, you solved this genocide problem that Joe Biden couldn't like, whatever it.

[Ben Rhodes]

Takes, whatever it takes to just stop this killing.

[Tommy Vitor]

Although this person I was talking to made the point to me that Trump will probably want something for it. You know what I mean? He'll demand gold or something.

[Ben Rhodes]

Yeah, yeah.

[Tommy Vitor]

Anyway, back to Gaza, Ben. So things in Gaza remain horrible. Over 100 Palestinians were reportedly killed in airstrikes over the weekend. The Washington Post had this absolutely gutting report on how at least seven infants have died in Gaza by freezing to death due to the cold. Trump keeps threatening that all hell will break loose in the Middle east if there's not a ceasefire and a hostage release deal. He keeps saying that all hell will break loose. I don't know what that means.

[Ben Rhodes]

I mean, it kind of already broke loose on October 7th.

[Tommy Vitor]

Yeah, hell has been loose. There's the reports that Hamas maybe has agreed to release these 34 hostages as part of a follow on ceasefire deal. But then there's other reporting. I think it was in the Times that said that Israel says they need more information from Hamas about which hostages are alive and how they'd get out. So it is all just unbelievably depressing and tragic and infuriating. And depending on what Trump means by all hell will break loose could get a lot worse.

[Ben Rhodes]

Yeah, but I, I don't. First of all, it just seems less and less likely that there is going to be like a big ceasefire for hostages deal. But there may be something, right? It may not be all the hostages and it may not be a permanent ceasefire. So there may be something that is more incremental. I don't know what he means though, because does he mean the US will get involved directly, militarily? Because Israel can't really unleash any more hell than is life in Gaza right now. So it does seem like. I think what I take from his message may be more to the other regional players because Qatar and Egypt and I want this done by the time I get in and you guys have to deliver it for me. So I think he's probably just trying to brush back those countries. But ultimately, as we've seen, it's really just two voices here. It's Netanyahu and Hamas and we frankly don't even know what Hamas kind of command structure is for this anymore.

[Tommy Vitor]

I think it's like Sinwar's brother, do.

[Ben Rhodes]

They know where all the hostages are? Are like there's some questions there. We'll see. But I mean, I See, that threat is more just like at everybody else to get their shit together. But I think they've been trying. That doesn't mean you can get it done.

[Tommy Vitor]

It's excruciating. I do think they are. The Biden team has tried to broker a deal. It is very hard to read some of these quotes by these sort of exit interviews by various senior officials where there's still this line that only Hamas is the hold up for these hostage talks. When like the hostage families don't believe that, Israelis don't believe that families are.

[Ben Rhodes]

The last ones to believe it. So you're kind of gaslighting the hostage families who are like they've been briefed by people. You had the former Minister of Defense of Israel saying this. I mean, so I do think if something happens, the people that have incentive to deliver for Trump the most are these regional actors, Qatar, Egypt and other. So if it happens, watch it happen on like January 20th, like Carter hostage style. Cuz they wanna humiliate Biden.

[Tommy Vitor]

Right.

[Ben Rhodes]

And by the way, Hamas probably wants to humiliate Biden too. Right. And so I think if a deal gets done, my guess would be it happens literally like right before or maybe even on inauguration day. But that doesn't fix Gaza. Like it's still just as big a mess. The best that'd be great to get the hostages home and hopefully get some aid in. But if Trump thinks that this is going to go away as a quote unquote problem, it's not.

[Tommy Vitor]

I think it'll go away insofar as he will ignore it and activists will not listen to activists who talk about the humanitarian situation.

[Ben Rhodes]

Yeah. And media attention.

[Tommy Vitor]

And there will be long term media.

[Ben Rhodes]

Attention will drift on Ukraine.

[Tommy Vitor]

It will lead to extremism and a massive cost down the road that we will all pay for in some way, shape or form.

[Ben Rhodes]

We will all pay for this. We will all. This is not, I mean we'll come back to this obviously, but this is not, this is not a victory. This is going to have consequences or not catastrophic, moral and others.

[Tommy Vitor]

The big, the other big sort of opportunity or crisis, depending how you look at it, that Trump is inheriting is Syria. I think it's more of an opportunity than a crisis, frankly. So the administration issued this week what's known as a general license exemption that will allow some transactions with the new government in Syria for six months in order to allow the sale and supply of natural gas, petroleum, electricity and other energy. Because they've been obviously suffering from constant blackouts and other massive infrastructure needs. The Treasury Department said that this general license will also apply to other essential services like water and sanitation. So it's basically like a, a partial time limited sanctions waiver. It's not a removal of US Sanctions. It's not a lifting of the designation of HTS as a terrorist organization. It's just kind of a half measure that is trying to help a little bit in the near term, but mostly punting the decision to Trump. So that's one big policy update when it comes to sort of US Policy towards Syria. The other thing that I think is worth noting is this interview you flagged, Ben, which was with this close aide and former chief for Bashar Al Assad. He talks through some of the details of those last days. The best part, if you're just an Assad hater like we are, is that Assad went to Moscow, Putin made him wait two days before giving him a one hour meeting and then sent him back. And then as you know, Assad's back in Syria watching city after city fall. Putin wouldn't take his calls and would just unavailable would not also guarantee to provide support to the Iranian military if they came in to save their regime's ass. So with friends like these.

[Ben Rhodes]

Well, it was really nice to read that thread and actually you can see the whole interview if you speak Arabic and picture Assad sitting there trying to get Putin on the phone. The moment when Assad realized it was all over that. I would have liked a GoPro in the room. That would be good to see. I will say the general license is a classic Washington half measure. I've been involved in general licenses in the past because the problem with it is you're keeping the sanctions in place. You're just saying we are going to provide a license for anybody to do these things related to these. We did this on Cuba because we couldn't get Congress to lift the embargo. We did these licenses for certain things. The problem with that is that nobody will invest in Syria.

[Tommy Vitor]

The businesses.

[Ben Rhodes]

Yeah, because they still see a sanction and they're like, well, why the fuck would we invest here if in six months this could go back to being sanctioned? They're still technically sanctioned. You're just saying I can do this stuff. So what this will allow is you saw some shipments from Qatar and Turkey who seem to be the closest governments to hts, allowing for electricity and fuel and stuff like that to get in. So it'll be good to kind of meet immediate needs around things like energy. But it's not going to allow for Investment and reconstruction essentially to go forward. That requires lifting the sanctions and punting that to Trump. I mean, I don't know why you wouldn't. Again, I know HGS is flawed. There's some bad characters associated with it. There's some tensions happening within the opposition. My whole approach has always been lift the sanctions, try to get the best bet to get people in their to stabilize the situation, start to rebuild. And if you start to see creepy behavior, everything can go in place tomorrow. You can just take the existing sanctions and just reactivate them. So I would rather lift them. But this is better than nothing.

[Tommy Vitor]

Yeah, it's better than nothing. I mean, I think the reason you wouldn't lift them is political risk.

[Ben Rhodes]

Political risk and I guess leverage. They would probably argue that you need to incentivize good behavior by HDS over time, but I don't know, like they're never gonna be perfect. What government in the world doesn't do things we don't like? I mean, you have to allow for flaws in this government. It's better than Assad and I'd like to see better than Assad work out rather than it be another civil war because they can't fucking do anything cuz they are sanctioned.

[Tommy Vitor]

And I've seen some people argue that this outcome, the brittleness of the Syrian military and regime generally is, you know, an indication that sanctions worked. I'm not really sure that's at all true. I think it harmed the Syrian people while Assad set up a massive drug production captagon operation.

[Ben Rhodes]

Yeah, someone who's there when the sanctions were put in place so I would have an interest in me like, oh, look at what we did. Worked. No, it had nothing to do with that. Like he was making the rest of the country suffered and he's making money on some weird amphetamine trades.

[Tommy Vitor]

Yeah, Billions of dollars off capticon. Finally. Ben, there's one thing I think Biden does deserve a lot of credit for, which is the Pentagon announced, I think this was Monday, Medal of Freedom to Ralph Lauren. Yeah, funny. The Pentagon gave that award. They announced that they moved 11 Yemeni prisoners to Oman this week. From Gitmo to Oman, which now brings down the total number of those detained at Gitmo to 15. It's this. I know. It's the smallest the Gitmo population has ever been. It's down from 40 detainees at the start of the Biden administration. This deal itself has been years in the making. It sounds like though, per usual, Congress stepped in to block it. I guess they had A plane on the Runway in like 2023. And Congress fucked it up and kept these guys in detention. Look, this is an imperfect solution. Oman had 28 detainees, took in 28 detainees years ago. I think they expelled them last year. People were understandably upset about that. But I think like the war in Afghanistan, Gitmo is a mess that Biden inherited. I'm just going to give him credit for doing everything he can to close it down. Because it is a stain on our justice system, our military, our intelligence community. It's a colossal waste of money. Stain on us in the Obama administration for fucking up the politics and not getting this thing closed. Obviously Congress is the reason for that. They passed laws that made it impossible to transfer people to the US or the military justice system was a disaster and we weren't allowed to use Article 3 courts to prosecute prisoners. There's a whole backstory. I know, I know. But good for Biden for starting to move to get these guys out.

[Ben Rhodes]

Good for Biden. The absurdity of there being 15 people in this prison that we spend like hundreds of millions of dollars, like half a billion, you know, just, just to stick it to Barack Obama. Like, like Barack Obama hasn't even been president in eight years. I can't think of another reason that Lindsey Graham and all these goons, these aging terrorists down there are not. I mean it was always absurd that we couldn't move them to a supermax president of the United States. Cuz what, they're gonna bust out like Khalid Sheikh Mohammed's gonna like run through the wall like the thing or something. This is about politics and it's about sticking it to Obama. Obama said he closed it. It's so stupid that we're still doing this eight years later. But it's good. The lower that number gets, the more absurd this whole proposition is in the first place that we sold. We're spending half a billion dollars just to keep a prison open in Cuba to make some point which I've even lost track of what the point is we're making.

[Tommy Vitor]

I don't know what the point is either. I mean, I think the challenge is that you have a handful of actual terrorists who did bad things and are.

[Ben Rhodes]

Ability to Chick Mammon.

[Tommy Vitor]

Yeah, you're KSM there. And we can't prosecute these guys because a lot of them were tortured because the military commission system is a flawed disaster and we can't use Article 3 courts. But then there were a bunch of guys there.

[Ben Rhodes]

Why can't we use Article 3? That's what's so stupid.

[Tommy Vitor]

I don't know.

[Ben Rhodes]

Well, in part because you can't torture.

[Tommy Vitor]

Them to the U.S. well, but look.

[Ben Rhodes]

This is one of those things where I was thinking about this recently. Cuz it is true. Like people always yell at me about how we didn't close the gimmon. I'm like, Congress basically passed a law in the first year of the Obama administration saying you couldn't transfer. This is one where I like admire Trump. You know, maybe that's not. Admire is the wrong word.

[Tommy Vitor]

You love that guy.

[Ben Rhodes]

No, Obama should just said fuck you. I'm gonna put these people on a plane and move them. We were being super normie about it. By normie, I don't mean normal. I mean like norms. Lovers. Right, Normal lovers. And it's like, you know, like you. It's stupid that we have a prison down there. We got plenty of prisons in the US or in other US territories and like we're just going to move these people. Like, like it's crazy how much time has been put in by Democratic lawyers and the Obama and Biden administration to negotiate these transfer deals to places like Oman when we should just fucking put these people on a plane to anywhere other than Guantanamo.

[Tommy Vitor]

I know. And a lot. I mean, four of the current members this Carol Rosenberg has done. Amazing. Amazing. Always reporting.

[Ben Rhodes]

Terrific reporter for.

[Tommy Vitor]

For decades and is like the Gimmo queen of the.

[Ben Rhodes]

And Seltzer. Oh, I. No, I shouldn't say that anymore.

[Tommy Vitor]

Insults are pictures down. Yeah, yeah.

[Ben Rhodes]

But I meant it in the same. She's got that thing where she just owns us in a way that Ann Seltzer like owned Iowa polling. Like she owns Gatemobi. Like, like Charlie Savage used to own the. Like legal.

[Tommy Vitor]

Yep, yep. But she pointed out that, you know, there's now 800 troops and civilian contractors at Gitmo. 53 guards and other staff members for every detainee.

[Ben Rhodes]

Just. It's so.

[Tommy Vitor]

It's absurd. And a lot of these guys who had been held there. Not this current. Not. Not who's left now? But a lot of people that have been held there, like didn't do anything, had been cleared for transfer, just couldn't figure out a place to send them. It is just such a stain on the country. So good for Joe Biden for.

[Ben Rhodes]

Yeah.

[Tommy Vitor]

Moving again.

[Ben Rhodes]

There you go.

[Tommy Vitor]

Well, we just went for an hour 15. We had no guests today because we knew we had a lot of. So maybe we just hit it and there.

[Ben Rhodes]

Yeah, no, it's good. Good God.

[Tommy Vitor]

See, Marine Le Pen's dad died.

[Ben Rhodes]

He was alive.

[Tommy Vitor]

Rest in peace.

[Ben Rhodes]

Yeah, talk about a, you know, bad guy.

[Tommy Vitor]

Like bad, bad guy.

[Ben Rhodes]

Your roots in like the, you know, suppression of Algerians and it's not good.

[Tommy Vitor]

Yeah, bad dude. So anyway, some good news, I guess. All right.

[Ben Rhodes]

Not for Elon Musk.

[Tommy Vitor]

Yeah, that's it. I know. Sorry, Sorry. But that's it from us today. Next week maybe we'll talk about the drumbeat for war with Iran that's happening. Yeah, we got a media.

[Ben Rhodes]

It's not going to go away.

[Tommy Vitor]

So take it to the ISIS stuff. There was, you know, the end of the year is when all the newspapers do their, like real big deep dive investigations. I think try to get Pulitzers is like Pulitzer season.

[Ben Rhodes]

Yeah.

[Tommy Vitor]

Because you got these.

[Ben Rhodes]

It's like the movies they release, the Academy Award movies.

[Tommy Vitor]

Yeah. You click the link and you look at it and it says listening time like 28 minutes. And you're like, oh, we're going deep on like the Hezbollah intel here or like all a TikTok on Ukraine, etc. Etc. So maybe we'll get into some of that.

[Ben Rhodes]

Yeah, absolutely.

[Tommy Vitor]

All right, talk to you soon.

[Ben Rhodes]

See.

[Tommy Vitor]

If you want to get ad free episodes, exclusive content and more, Consider joining our Friends of the Pod subscription [e-mail] friends. Don't forget to follow us at Crooked Media on Instagram, Tik Tok and Twitter for more original content. Host takeover and other community events. Plus find Pod Save the world on YouTube for access to full episodes, bonus content and more. If you're as opinionated as we are, consider dropping a review. Pod Save the World is a Crooked Media production. Our producer is Ilona Minkowski. Our associate producer is Michael Goldsmith. Our executive producers are me, Tommy Vitor and Ben Rhodes. The show is mixed and edited by Andrew Chadwick and engineered by Vasilis Fotopoulos. Audio support by Kyle Seglit and Charlotte Landis. Madeline Herringer is our head of news and programming. Matt De Groat is our head of production. Andy Taft is our executive assistant. Thanks to our digital team, Phoebe Bradford, William Jones, Kiril Palaviv and Molly Lobel, who upload our episodes and videos to YouTube.com podsavetheworld.

[Ben Rhodes]

Hey, friends, Ted Danson here.

[Tommy Vitor]

And I want to let you know about my new podcast. It's called Where Everybody Knows yous Name with me, Ted Danson and Woody Harrelson. Sometimes doing this podcast is a chance for me and my good bud Woody to reconnect after cheers wrapped 30 years ago. Plus, we're introducing each other to the friends we've met since, like Jane Fonda, Conan O'Brien, Eric Andre, Mary Steen, Virgin, My Wife, and Flea from the Red Hot Chili Peppers. And trust me, it's always a great hang when Woody's there, so why wait? Listen to where everybody knows your name, wherever you get your podcasts.