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A
Pod Save the World is brought to you by three Day Blinds. Why waste a Saturday walking around a blind store when three Day Blinds brings the showroom to you? Spend your Saturday doing literally anything else with your family, with your friends. Go to a different store. Not blinds shopping because there's a better way to buy blinds, shades, shutters and drapery. It's called three Day Blinds. They are the leading manufacturer of high quality custom window treatments in the United States. And right now if you use our URL three day blinds.com world they are running a buy one get one 50% off deal. You can shop for almost anything from home. Why not shop for blinds at home too? Three Day Blinds has local, professionally trained design consultants who have an average of 10 or more years of experience that provide expert guidance on the right blinds for you in the comfort of your home. Just set up an appointment. You'll get a free no obligation quote the same day. Three Day Blinds is great. We actually used it for our office here at Crooked Media. They did all the rooms. The office I sit in all day and it does a great job. Nothing's broken for like five years. They work perfectly every time and highly recommend them. With three Day Blinds you choose from thousands of options that fit any budget or style. Plus from light filtering and blackout blinds to motorization and smart blinds that work with Alexa, three Day Blinds is a real upgrade to your home, not just a replacement. 3 Day Blinds has been in business for over 45 years. They've helped over 2 million people get the window treatments of their dreams. So they are a brand you can trust right now. Get quality window treatments that fit your budget with three day blinds. Head to three day blinds.com world for their buy one get one 50% off deal on custom blinds, shades, shutters and drapery for a free no charge, no obligation consultation. Just head to threedayblinds.com world one last time. That's buy one get one 50% off when you head to the number 3D a Y blinds.com world.
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A
Welcome back to Pod Save the World I'm Tommy Vitor.
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C
I'm Ben Rhodes.
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A
Patriots going to the Super Bowl, Ben. My New England Patriots, you know, congratulations.
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C
And I have a lot of listener.
- [02:38]
A
Just skip forward, hit the 30 second skip button for like six times. Right now if you don't want football ban, I get to do this. My Patriots are going to Super Bowl.
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C
I admire you going to Denver and sitting outside in the cold.
- [02:49]
A
Yeah, it was cold.
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C
You guys got some string of luck too.
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A
Oh, are you kidding me?
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C
I mean, Jared Stidham breaks the championship. This kind of guy. Nobody's heard of that. I love the pregame hype. Like, no, he's really good. Watch out. Watch out for Stidham.
- [03:03]
A
Well, the Patriots drafted him and then.
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C
Second quarter, the guy's like throwing a two handed pass behind himself. That basically looks like I was in.
- [03:09]
A
The bathroom line for that moment. I was in the bathroom. Me and Andy, John's brother. Yeah. I went to Denver over the weekend to go to the game. So as we're walking in, we went to this tailgate first and, and like we were dressed up in every piece of warm thing I owned. But I was with a group of Boston folks. So some funny, like everyone was so nice in Denver. Denver fans are like the nicest people ever by the way. But some guy comes up to our group with a sign that said Dunkin Donuts sucks and he started chirping us.
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C
That's good.
- [03:35]
A
So yeah, it led to this like hilarious kind of back and forth. So I of course slap on my fake Boston accent and I'm like, you Starbucks drinking latte, liberal, whatever. Denver elitist. I got a laugh. So I was like, you probably voted for Kamala. And then some kid earnestly looks next to me, he goes, wait, you voted for Kamala? I think you guys are pretty much aligned politically.
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C
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
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A
So funny. Actually, yes, I really, I support her.
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C
Entire building bridges in the parking lot. The last thing I'd say about this is I watched a lot of that and I've never watched a football game. And I know someone says weather where I just had no confidence in one team's capacity to ever score ever. Like the entire second half. Every time they got the ball, they could have gotten the ball in like the five yard line. And I've been like, there's no way these guys can punch it in.
- [04:20]
A
No one could run. Like, look, we sucked in the first half too. Like the opposite. Not moving the first half. But the second half, it was a white out blizzard. It was honestly, the football game was terrible. The Experience of being in Mile High with, like, Whiteout, Blizzard with everyone, just like that. Amped was like, one of the cooler things I've ever been a part of. And the people were like, next to us. But the kid next to us was from Colorado. We start talking, we end up talking about how I'm in politics and tell you that. The two or three questions he asked me, the first was, what do you really think about what happened with Israel and Gaza? And I'm like, oh, God, I don't like where this is coming. Then he throws some conspiracy theories at me. Then he asked me if I know who Nick Fuentes was.
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C
Oh. And I was like, ooh, you had a griper.
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A
I don't think he was a griper, but he's like, I see a lot of his clips. Like, this is not good. This is not good. This kid.
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C
So they look at you doing some research.
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A
Yeah. Doing some field work also, Ben. So our listeners probably know that our producer, Michael, he has this, like, sort of his first goal is to make a great show, but his second goal is to try to get us canceled and kicked off.
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C
Almost did last week. Maybe he did, actually.
- [05:22]
A
He bought us these blue aviators, and he asked me earlier today if I was willing to do some prop work and wear them after we got a case of the sillies last week. Talking about Emmanuel Macron's speech, which was controversial in the comments of the post.
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C
I know. Look, we will do some mea culpas today. There are a couple of things we're talking about.
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A
More carney today.
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C
But I don't know, man. If you put on blue aviators at Davos, like, I can't really apologize for that.
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A
I don't apologize for having a sincere laugh that was that hard. And if you're offended by it, and if you want people that only do high dudgeon, this might not be.
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C
Especially. Wait, wait. When I'm on the side, I'm agreeing with Macron. Like, I had nothing substantive against him. I hope his eye healed.
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A
Yeah, me too.
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C
But come on. But actually, because people can laugh at us.
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A
Yeah.
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C
Like, laugh at me right now.
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A
It was very funny. I think you look good.
- [06:18]
C
Maybe this is. Maybe this will be my new look.
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A
I think it's really good. What are we gonna talk about today? We're gonna try to explain how and why Trump climbed down from his threat to invade Greenland. Remember the one that felt imminent last week?
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C
For now.
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A
For now. For now. It's a very good, important caveat. We'll explain how Trump also managed to insult every veteran and service member in NATO after the whole Greenland thing. We're also going to talk about how Canadian Prime Minister Mark Carney, his great speech at Davos that we didn't talk about last week, which was an oversight. We're going to talk about this week, his pushback on Trump and how he's trying to create kind of a new international order for, I don't know, for lack of a better term. We'll touch on a new trade agreement between the EU and India as an example of that. Then we're going to talk about the military purge in China and all these rumors over the weekend that there was a coup attempt.
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C
This is pretty interesting, actually.
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A
Very exciting Twitter moment. The latest from Gaza and Jared Kushner's absurd Gaza reconstruction. PowerPoint at Davos. Like a evil McKinsey lay down. We'll talk about Iran and why there's still a risk that Trump might order airstrikes on Iran even though the protests have been crushed. Talk about some new details about life at the FBI under Kash Patel. And then we are going to rage about a real estate conference in Saudi Arabia. And then, Ben, you're gonna hear my interview with Kenneth R. Rosen, the author of the book Polar Submarine Spies and the Struggle for Power. And in a Melting Arctic, we talk about Greenland, why the US Would even want more access to the Arctic, what the deal is up there, what the Russians are doing. So stick around for that.
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C
That's going to be a fun one. I have one plug. I know I did one last week, but I have a second one. I dangled this last week, but I did start a substack.
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A
Tommy, how's it going?
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C
I just started yesterday, so I don't know how it's going.
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A
Is it fun?
- [07:52]
C
I think it's fun. I like the ability that I can communicate directly to people. I really do. Actually, as a writer, it's like, wow, I can just write something and a bunch of people will read it.
- [08:00]
A
So you also, like, you're the fastest writer I've ever met.
- [08:03]
C
Well, this is the thing is, I paint. I resisted doing this for. I don't know why, but, like, you know, I write for these New York Times pieces and occasionally for some other places. And it's like a painstaking process. It's good. Like, I like the rigor of it, but I kind of want a place where I can just be like, hey, I've got 500 words to share on this or that. It's notes on the stories we tell because we're living through a fucking crazy story. But I'm just gonna. I'm gonna, you know, if I got thoughts about what we talk about on this show, if we've got things I'm reading, if I go on these trips, things I pick up on my travels, I want to just be able to share that directly. So I. I hope some of you will smash that free subscribe button.
- [08:40]
A
Damn right.
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C
I'm not charging.
- [08:41]
A
Subscribe to ban on subset free content, guys. Yeah, no, that. That's a great offer. And by the way, you just. We do this show once a week as a podcast.
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C
That's the thing.
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A
Thank you for listening. Please subscribe to POD Save the World as a podcast if you're listening as a podcast. We also do a lot of additional YouTube content that doesn't go on the podcast feed. So subscribe to Pod Save the World on YouTube if you want more. Or if you want to watch us put on reflective blue aviators like my. My face turned a shade of red that you usually don't see in human beings. As we are laughing about the Macron.
- [09:13]
C
Devos, I'm just gonna. I'm just gonna say one more time to defend us, because, again, like, well, we're willing to admit fault in other areas, but when you have to engage this kind of heavy material constantly, you need to laugh sometimes. Like. Like it light, actually. I encourage people, you know, so laugh. I take the comments. We read the comments. We take them seriously, but, you know.
- [09:33]
A
But not that seriously. Subscribe to Pod Save the world on YouTube. And also, if you want to really help Crooked Media out, become a friend of the pod, go to crooked.com friends. You can be a subscriber. You can help us build a progressive, independent media company, because we need more of them. So. All right, Ben, let's start with this massive climb down by Donald Trump on Greenland, at least for now. So last week, as we recorded, Trump was en route to the World Economic Forum in Davos, which, by the way, if I have to read another fucking article about how Davos is back and Davos was the big winner, I'm going to lose my mind.
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C
Yeah. Who is that for real? Mark of the Times for the people who go to Davos. Sponsored you just. The people who go to Davos love to be reassured that they're not engaged in a ridiculous narcissistic exercise. And that's one way, because they know so relevant.
- [10:18]
A
They know deep down that they are at the same time. So at that time, it felt like Trump was willing to risk a War with NATO to get Greenland. This is our interpretation, not based on something. This is like his comments, what he was saying. He did post a photo of himself generated by AI of himself planting a US flag in the Greenland territory that said established 2026. He threatened tariffs on our closest allies. But then in his speech, Trump took the threat of US Military force off the table and then later announced that he had negotiated the, quote, framework of a future deal for Greenland that was of, quote, infinite, end quote, duration then. So he also said he wouldn't be imposing tariffs on our allies over the years. So the question is, what did we get? Like, what was in this deal and what convinced him to change course, at least for now? Let's start with what he got. So the walk back was announced right after Trump's meeting with the sycophantic NATO military chief, Mark Ruta. Doesn't really make sense that they thrash this out there because Ruta can't negotiate away Denmark's territory in any event. But whatever the deal that was announced, and that is very much an air quotes deal, it allows the US to put more US Military bases in Greenland, including infrastructure for the Golden Dome missile defense project, which again, we could have done anyway under a diplomatic agreement from 1951. There's one little sweetener which might be that Denmark could give the US Sovereignty over the plots of land that the bases are physically on, which, like, okay, I don't know that I'm thrilled about that. The deal might also include greater NATO presence in the Arctic and then limits on Russia and China's access to Greenland. And all we had to give up was our standing in the world and relationships with our closest allies. That was the only downside. It was all upside, except for the part where everyone thinks we're crazy. So, Ben, the question is, what happened? My theory is that it was a combination of stock market dipping, bad polling, Republicans that Trump normally respects telling him this is nuts. And then I think also quite importantly, there was a real sense that we were starting to build last week, that Europe might enact a real cost finally in stand together and do something. I've also been told by like one close Trump watcher that is as frustrating as he seems. Ruta is actually pretty good at managing Trump, so maybe he deserves some more credit than we give him. But, like, what do you think? What do you think happened here?
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C
Yeah, I think first of all, you know, Trump wants Greenland. He wanted it before and he still wants it. So I think the first point I'd make is that sometimes you Go through these mini dramas with Trump, and everybody likes to feel like they're resolved. I don't think this is resolved. The idea that at some point in the next three years, he's not going to say, you know what? I actually do want Greenland.
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A
I think not even our first Greenland.
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C
This is coming back. But I think what he does is he pushes and pushes and pushes until he feels resistance, right? And he felt a lot of resistance in the ramp up to Davos and kind of worked against himself by building the drama around this event where everybody was coming together. Because what happened is, number one, the market's tanked. Right? I mean, I think this really matters. Like, you lose 2% of the stock market because people are afraid of a war over Greenland. We've seen this kind of discipline. Trump before. It happened after Liberation Day with the tariffs, by the way, which is a good analogy for what I was saying, because then he backed off, but he came back to tariffs, you know, in the same way, I think he'll come back to Greenland. I also think that the Europeans more than usual, put up a united front and saying no in saying that they're in not bowing to the tariff threat, not rushing to cut a deal, but just saying, like, no, we reject these tariffs. We reject what you're saying. We reject you taking Greenland. And so he couldn't divide and conquer, which is what he usually likes to do. There was no. Nobody in Europe was. Maybe Viktor Orban, but nobody credible in Europe was, like, creating the perception that there was a division about this.
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A
Even, like, far right party leaders were denouncing him. Like, louder than most of the centrists.
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C
Louder than most. Right. Because they're a nationalist. So I think he pushed and felt resistance and pulled back, which, again, is a lesson, right? If you show, if he feels limits, like, he can pull back. And look, I do think the poll did, like, under 10% in the U.S. some of the Republicans are like, do we want to go into this midterm cycle with, like, a Greenland war? You know, which is actually, again, why this feels like a second half of the Trump term move anyway. Know when there's no midterms, no nothing, right? It's just JD's future, pure legacy building. It's just JD's future that's getting torched. So, you know, I think we learned some lessons, right? He listens to markets, he listens to resistance. There is some political gravity. This deal is complete and utter bullshit. So one of the reasons I had the same reaction that you did to the media coverage that was so credulous of like Davos matters. And Trump got a win. Art of the deal is that he got bases that we already have. You know, I mean, literally, you can't overstate what bullshit this is. You know, we as a NATO ally and we've been a privileged NATO ally in Greenland could build a base wherever or, you know, the Danes aren't going to like take our base away in the next 50 years or however long they want to put on it. So the idea that, you know, he got the win of like the base we have is now permanent or we will be part of any potential exploration of mineral rights, which we could have been anyway with an ally, you know, it's just absurd. And again, I think an important people thing for people to take away from. This is no, this wasn't art of the deal where he threatened something and then get something. He threatened something. We paid an enormous cost. Like NATO is not the same as it was. Us standing is not the same as it was. The dollar is plummeting.
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A
You know, gold is surging more than gold is surging.
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C
So we're going to take an economic hit here. So we took on all this water to get a face saving agreement that is no different than the status quo as a NATO ally. I mean, it's just ridiculous.
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A
Yeah, it is ridiculous. Well, in, in the interview I dig more into like sort of the actual value of Greenland or the Arctic. So if you want more detail, check that out. Ben, it probably didn't help that in the middle of this fight, Trump profoundly offended basically every single military in NATO. So this happened during an interview with Maria Bartiromo on Fox Business. Let's watch the segment in question here.
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D
No, I think, but I've always said will they be there if we ever needed them? And that's really the ultimate test. And I'm not sure of that. I know that we would have been there or we would be there, but will they be there? And let's hope that that never happens. We've never needed them. We have never really asked anything of them. You know, they'll say they sent some troops to Afghanistan or this or that, and they did. They stayed a little back, a little off the front lines. But we've been very good to Europe and to many other countries. And you know, now under my administration that began because we had a very successful first term that began then. But it has to be a two way street.
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A
So for the record, the only time NATO has invoked Article 5 of its charter was to come to the defense of the US after 9, 11. And to give you some numbers, just to quantify the human cost for NATO countries of the war in Afghanistan, I'll put some together for you here. So 3,500 troops died total. 2,456 of them were Americans. 457 British soldiers died, 2,000 were wounded. Canada deployed over 40,000 people for 12 years and lost 165 troops. 44 Danish soldiers died, which is the most per capita other than America. Poland lost 44 soldiers. France lost 90. So, I mean, he's just so wrong there and offensively wrong. And the comments enraged veterans, they enraged lawmakers and citizens in like every NATO country. And so we're just going to play you some examples from the UK to give you a sense of the tenor and tone of the pushback. So this supercut is Prime Minister Keir Starmer, Tory leader Kemi Badenoch, and then finally right wing reform UK leader Nigel Farage.
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C
Listen, I consider President Trump's remarks to be insulting and frankly appalling. I think those comments are absolutely appalling. They are untrue and he should absolutely.
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A
Not have said that.
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C
This is not something that we should even be questioning.
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A
But there was one thing that he did say that I have to take issue with. He said, NATO have never given us anything back.
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E
And I will object to that politely.
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A
We proportionately spent the same money as America. We lost the same number of lives as America pro rata. And the same applies actually to Denmark and other countries too. So it's not quite fair. Of course, the, like anti globalist Nigel Farage is a Davos.
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C
Yeah.
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A
Surprised that wasn't a fucking cameo. So the royals threw some punches too. Prince Harry released a statement and then most importantly, according to the sun newspaper, King Charles let Trump know he was pissed via some sort of backchannel. And then, Ben, I think the coup de grace was this message from multi platinum recording artist Rod Stewart. Let's watch. I'm calling on you, Prime Minister Starmer.
- [19:16]
C
And Farage, please make the draft dodger Trump.
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E
Apologize, please.
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A
I love Rod Stewart.
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C
I love Rod Stewart. I do. I love Maggie Mae classics. You wear it well.
- [19:32]
A
It's very funny. So he didn't serve in the military, so I'm not sure what, like, inspired him to do that, but good for him. Good on him. So Trump walked those comments back over the weekend on Truth Social, he posted, the great and very brave soldiers of the UK will always be with the United States of America and Afghanistan. 457 died, many were badly injured and they were among the greatest of all warriors. It's a bond too strong to ever be broken. Blah, blah, blah. So, Ben, two thoughts on this. King Charles and Queen Camila are expected to come to the US as part of the 250th anniversary celebrations. I wonder if they threatened to cancel that trip. And that's what Trump got. Got Trump to move. So second, on some level, I think it's nice to see that, like, insulting fallen veterans is bad politics for Trump. But it's also kind of even more depressing when you think back to our primaries and Trump insulting John McCain for being a POW and that seemingly helping him in the Republican Party, not hurting him. But what'd you make of this controversy and the fact that he kind of, this is one of many walk backs in recent days?
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C
Well, I think first of all, you do wonder where he gets his information because, you know, he said like, they, they stayed back. Someone must have told him that. It's not like Trump was like, you know, in the Afghan war, you know, and it's not true. Like, they weren't like, yeah, like some of the NATO allies were like, in some of the hairiest places, you know. And so he's living in this kind of fictionalized universe. And look on Afghanistan, for instance, I remember it's not just the troops lost, although that's obviously the most acute thing. It's the money spent, it's the bandwidth of their foreign policy spent on something that they had very little interest in. I mean, I remember when I was in the White House, I had this job and you were there for some of it. And then Caitlin Hayden, our friend who came after you, I remember where we would talk to the communications people in NATO allied capitals about how to message to their publics about the Afghan war. And we had been attacked on 9, 11. So as fatigued as the American public was with Afghanistan, which was a lot by, you know, the time of even the surge in 2009, 2010, if you're a European country, you're like, what the fuck are we doing in this place? We weren't attacked. Like, we're not really threatened. They weren't like necessarily plotting attacks on Denmark. It was entirely out of commitment to NATO and the alliance that these countries stayed in Afghanistan for 10, 15 years, lost people, spent billions of dollars. So it's just complete nonsense. And every other military operation, NATO has been like, that is the United States most powerful force. Yes, but everyone is always contributing, whether it's Kosovo or Libya or even, you know, something in the Aegean Sea or whatever the thing it is. But more than that, I just think we need to take on this mentality. There has always been this kind of, you know, Trump has this kind of. Old Trump's the kind of guy that would go to like, you know, the French event and be like, we bailed you out of the two big ones. And we, you know, dude, at Davos.
- [22:22]
A
He said, without us right now, you'd all be speaking German and a little Japanese perhaps. And look like my friend Alistair Campbell was in the room and said the whole place was after that. He's like, fuck you.
- [22:30]
C
Fuck you, dude. And because here's the thing that we have to acknowledge as like the empire since World War II, right? It's not like we don't get something out of having all these bases in these countries. You know, like, we, well, you know, we protect Germany. Well, the United States likes to have military bases in all these places. It's what allows our military to operate globally. It kind of underpins our global capitalist economy. Ramstein is where our troops in Germany are brought for medical treatment. Like, you know, how many Americans would have died if we had to fly them all the way home and didn't have a state of the art military? So, like, let's just put aside this notion that we're just all given no take from the reality of these alliances. It's not true. You know, and I think you're right on the climb downs. They're pushing back like Starmer never would have done that six months ago. And I do think that they're finally learning the same lesson that again, people are starting to learn in this country, we. Which is if you want Trump to stop doing something you don't like, don't kiss his ass, stand up to him. And you know what? He tends to back down.
- [23:28]
A
Absolutely. He will absolutely back down. We've seen it repeatedly in the last few weeks. Speaking of which, one of the most fascinating subplots of this whole dust up and the Trump attacks on NATO has been the response from Canadian Prime Minister Mark Carney. So again last week, I think we screwed up by not giving Carney's Davos speech more time and kind of whiffed a bit on the substance of it. So we're going to fix that today. And by the way, that was not intentional. It just, that's what happens sometimes when there's big speeches on the day that we actually record the show. But we pulled together some notable lines from Carney's speech into this supercut.
- [23:58]
F
Let's watch it seems that every day we're reminded that we live in an era of great power rivalry. That the rules based order is fading, that the strong can do what they can and the weak must suffer what they must. And faced with this logic, there is a strong tendency for countries to go along, to get along, to accommodate, to avoid trouble, to hope that compliance will buy safety.
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G
Well, it won't.
- [24:35]
F
We are in the midst of a rupture, not a transition. Over the past two decades, a series of crises in finance, health, energy and geopolitics have laid bare the risks of extreme global integration. But more recently, great powers have begun using economic integration as weapons, tariffs as leverage, financial infrastructure as coercion, supply chains as vulnerabilities to be exploited. You cannot live within the lie of mutual benefit through integration when integration becomes the source, source of your subordination. We understand that this rupture calls for more than adaptation. It calls for honesty about the world as it is. We are taking the sign out of the window. We know the old order is not coming back. We shouldn't mourn it. Nostalgia is not a strategy.
- [25:29]
A
So those stark comments were why, I think aside from the Trump Greenland bullshit, like, Carney's speech was the biggest news out of Davos. Not surprisingly, Trump didn't love it. Like last week, we played some of his rejoinder, his reaction in real time to, to Carney last week when he said, quote, canada lives because of the United States. And he seemed to threaten Mark Carney and the Canadians. But then after those remarks, Trump rescinded Carney's invitation to be on the Board of Peace.
- [25:51]
C
Oh, gosh.
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A
Pathetic.
- [25:53]
C
Poor Mark Carney.
- [25:54]
A
Carney didn't want to be on the Board of Peace. Then a few days later, he's not.
- [25:57]
C
Going to get to hang out. Lukashenko.
- [25:58]
A
Oh, I know, yeah. What, what real country is on the Board of Peace? That's a joke. A few days later, Trump starts raging about a trade deal that Canada had previously announced with China. So that deal was announced during Carney's visit to Beijing, where he met with Chinese President Xi Jinping. In practice, the deal means Canada will cut its 100% tariffs on Chinese electric vehicles. They're going to allow 49,000 of these low cost Chinese EVs into Canada per year. China drops tariffs on Canadian products like canola oil and lobsters and peas and crabs. The details get a little wonky, but Canada's goal is to increase exports to China by 50% by 2030. So right now, about 75% of Canadian exports go to the U.S. china is their second biggest market, but it still only represents 5% of their exports. So this is clearly an attempt to not only grow that number, but also just hedge against reliance on the U.S. trump later posted that if that deal goes through, he's going to slap a 100% tariff on all Canadian goods and products coming to the US So I wonder why Carney is looking elsewhere. Right. And talking about the order being over. So, Ben, stepping back a bit. This is not Carney's first fight with Trump. We've covered this a bunch. Like he basically got elected running against Trump, the elbows up slogan. But it is fascinating to watch him continue to have political courage to push back on this guy when Canada has more skin in the game than anyone else. I think my kind of fear for him is that, number one, like in the short term, Trump can still inflict a lot of economic pain on Canada through tariffs. And then two, like, his diagnosis of the problem in that speech is spot on and commendably honest. But the solution is basically like more coordination between kind of so called middle powers, which is easier said than done. So I don't know, what did you make of the speech and his kind of general approach?
- [27:47]
C
Yeah, no, first of all, remind me a couple about this is I actually like, I liked Carney's speech. I kind of went off. I was triggered by it not because of Mark Carney as much as because of he was doing something that I didn't see any of the other Europeans doing. And so I apologize to our Canadian listeners because the thing that set me off was, yeah, the world order's done. The liberal order's over. Like, of course it is. I actually think Mark Carney's been at the leading edge of calling that out. This speech builds, as you say, on what he's done. And I did not give him enough credit for that. And I'd like to see the Europeans catch up to them. And they are. And I'll get to that in a second, I think, look, the reason, there's a number of reasons why this speech has rippled out and resonated and every nerd has been talking about it for a week. You know, one is, even though we've been talking about this for a year or two now in this podcast, that the liberal international order is over. But it matters when a prime minister of an important country says it.
- [28:42]
A
Right?
- [28:42]
C
It matters when he's taking huge risk in saying matters. That he said it kind of in the belly of the beast in Davos. And that leads to the second point, Mark Carney is in another world, like Mr. Liberal Order, right? This guy was the head of the bank of England and the bank of Canada. He was like a climate finance guy, right? He's the kind of guy that you would have seen on a panel discussion at Davos about sustainable energy transitions and the rules based order every year. And so this is a guy, this is not some bomb thrower, even someone like me who's been a critic of the liberal order coming in and saying it. It matters that a guy who's like from that world is telling his colleagues this is over, you know, and that's why it's important. Not cuz he's the first guy who said it, but because of who he is, where he said it and kind of where he came from. Now in terms of what comes next, because that's the big question, like this is ending, something is ending. We're entering a new era that's going to take some time to sort out. He did diagnose it. There are big powers. The US is using all the leverage of the dollar and tariffs and sanctions to extract whatever it wants or to remove leaders. The Chinese are the ones using the supply chains. I think that's who he's referencing. The Russians just invade Ukraine. So that's a bit different. But look, I think what comes next is what we've also been warning about in this podcast, which is other countries moving very fast to begin to make arrangements to de risk themselves from the United States and to build coalitions to build trade agreements, to build supply chains that exclude us so that they are not as susceptible to the leverage of our tariffs or sanctions, whatever it is. The trade agreement that Carney did with the Chinese is like a first step in that direction. The trade agreement that the EU signed with the Indians today is a huge. This is exactly what the new order is. It's basically middle powers and big powers like India, the eu, the Canadians, the Brazilians, the Turks. These are countries with a lot. The Gulf Arabs are kind of free agents, they like to play all over the place. Basically everybody who is not the United States, China and Russia is going to be designing trade relationships and geopolitical relationships and security relationships that are not overly reliant on any one power, including the United States, which is an entirely new thing that is happening in the world. And so that again, I think, you know, and if I'm Canadian, this is actually, this is exactly the right guy at this time, you know, and like, you might take some hits, you might take some tariff hits. But you're going to be much healthier in the long term and even the medium term by not being perpetually at the risk of some nutcase in the United States, you know, saying, we're going to put 100% tariffs on you and.
- [31:28]
A
When you look tough, you get more political space to do it. Which I think is Kier Starmer's problem. I mean, Yeah, I mean, so this trade deal, it covers a lot of people. This EU India trade deal covers a lot of people. Like Ursula von der Leyen called it the mother of all trade deals and said it created a free trade zone of 2 billion people. The actual economic impact is a lot smaller than that. I mean, the EU, India is the EU's ninth biggest trading partner, but it will also help India manage the 50% tariff that Trump slapped on them. So, like, we're kind of driving these, these forces together. I also noticed, Ben, that, that Keir Starmer is going to China this week, which is interesting because he, it's the first visit by a British PM since 2018. He's trying to ink some, some trade or business deals that will spur economic growth back home. But, you know, like, I think Emmanuel Macron, French President Emmanuel Macron was just in China. Friedrich Meerz from Germany is going in February. Like, it would be myopic, myopic to suggest that was because of the United States. But I just, I continue to have whiplash because Trump ran on getting tough on China, but in practice has appeased the Chinese government and then driven our allies closer to China in the form of these trade deals. You know, similarly, like, it's, it's funny, like there was sort of this nationalist anti globalist sentiment that is ironically being cured by Donald Trump, like driving all these unlikely partners together.
- [32:49]
C
Yeah. And I think that there are other pieces of this that are kind of beginning to come into place. So one of the interesting things I noticed in that EU India trade deal, and look, in Europe is like India's biggest exporter. So they like, they are de risking from the US sanctions, like you said, and you know, from Russia. And obviously they don't want to, like, you know, they have rivalry with China. EVs are a part of a big part of it. Right. Like, just as in the China Canada deal. And there's another area where these countries, just because Donald Trump doesn't believe in climate change and withdrew from the Paris Agreement and is canceling all of the Inflation Reduction act green energy credits doesn't mean the other countries are going to stop making EVs or stop developing.
- [33:34]
A
And the Chinese ones are apparently great.
- [33:37]
C
Yeah. So they're all making these deals and they're doing clean energy transition and they're building clean energy supply chains. And I think part of what is so frustrating about the United States right now is the kind of people that their takeaway from Davos is. The biggest winner was Donald Trump because he got a Greenland framework of a potential deal. The stuff he's doing is gonna really fucking hurt us in the medium and long term. We're gonna lose out on all these trade deals that are being made without us. We're gonna be totally absent from the EV market. Cause he hates EVs. We're not transitioning to clean energy, which is what everybody's going to be using in 20 years. Like the cost of the Trump presidency is just going to build over time.
- [34:18]
A
Yeah.
- [34:19]
C
And that's a hard political case to make in a country that has an attention span that lasts about an hour these days. But. But it's part of what you're seeing in these tectonic plates and moving around.
- [34:28]
A
Yeah. Also, I mean, I saw that Britain, Germany, Denmark and a bunch of other European countries signed a major clean energy pact earlier this week. Now, this was first announced in 2023 after the Russian invasion of Ukraine. But it basically calls for a massive increase in wind energy, which Trump hates. Which Trump hates. And, you know, for dumb reasons, he thinks it creates cancer somehow and then but like it'll link their power grids, their production capacity for all these countries. And as you said, this is happening as Trump is killing off wind energy. The other kind of interesting zig as the world zags example that I just wanted to quickly mention was I saw that Spain announced that they are granting legal status to hundreds of thousands of undocumented migrants in Spain. So you have to have no criminal record and you have to have been in the country last year and then I think stick around for about five months. But this is sort of the left, left or left wing government there has realized that they have a severe labor shortage. It's only being filled by migrant workers. And it's better to make them legal, get them paying taxes, get them into the system, than just have like undocumented people everywhere. It's a very rational approach. We will see if it leads to, you know, some right wing backlash like it has in other places.
- [35:35]
C
It might. But this speaks to again, like Trump is dismantling the sources of our own competitiveness, which include immigration.
- [35:40]
A
Right.
- [35:40]
C
I will take this opportunity, Tommy, to just say one thing. About what's on a lot of our American. Well, a lot of people's minds, which is ice, because this is the other thing I realized when I was in government that we thought a lot about our foreign policy in terms of how it made people around the world think of us. And clearly what Trump did on Greenland made a lot of Europeans and people everywhere think these guys are fucking scary. But the number one thing people watch is what's happening in the United States. And I can tell you, I can guarantee you that what is happening in Minneapolis and the fucking lies about it.
- [36:12]
A
It'S leading the news everywhere, is leading.
- [36:14]
C
The news around the world and is fundamentally and permanently changing, I mean, building on what has already happened, changing the view of the United States around the world and make people not want to come here.
- [36:25]
A
You're a high skill foreign worker. Why would you ever want to come here?
- [36:27]
C
It's gonna hurt tourism, it's gonna hurt foreign students, it's gonna hurt high skilled workers coming here. It's to hurt everything, you know, and so the totality of the Trump presidency, the costs are beginning to become apparent in this country and around the world.
- [36:41]
A
Yep. Pod world is brought to you by factor. We all want to eat a little better, but it's really hard to do when you have no time and you have no energy. When you get home from work and you look at the takeout options and some of them taste good, but none of them are healthy. What factor does is they don't have you meal prep. You don't have to follow recipes. It just removes the entire problem. Two minutes. Real food, great food, healthy food, and it's done. Factor is already made by chefs, designed by dietitians and delivered to your door. You heat it for two minutes and eat. They got lean proteins and colorful veggies, whole food ingredients, healthy fats, the stuff you'd make if you had the time. No refined sugars, no artificial sweeteners, no refined seed oils. They got a hundred rotating meals every week. It's high protein. There's calorie, smart, Mediterranean, GLP1 support and ready to eat salads. 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Head to factor meals.com PSTW50OFF and use the code PSTW50OFF to get 50% off your first factor box plus free breakfast for one year offer only valid for new Factor customers with a code and qualifying auto renewing subscription purchase. Make healthier eating easy with Factor POD Save the World is brought to you by the International Rescue Committee. The headlines, as you guys know, can be overwhelming. There's just so much going on it can feel hopeless. You can feel like what in the world can I actually do to make a difference? How can I help? What can I do for people living in places like Gaza and Sudan who are suffering so much and it just feels like nothing is getting better for these folks? One way you can help, one way you can make a difference is a gift to the International Rescue Committee. Albert Einstein actually helped found the organization that became the International Rescue Committee. Ingenuity, fortitude and optimism remain at the heart of their work. The IRC responds within 72 hours after an emergency strikes. Donations help the IRC provide families with emergency supplies in the aftermath of a crisis and the resources they need to recover and rebuild their lives. For example, in Sudan there has been a horrific civil war for two years now. Longer actually. It's led to the largest and fastest growing displacement crisis in the world today and the largest humanitarian Crisis ever recorded. 1 in 10 people in humanitarian need globally are in Sudan. There's an estimated 3.4 million children under the age of five that are high risk of epidemic diseases and through their health facilities and mobile health clinics, the IRC provides medicine, medical equipment and malnutrition treatment among other life saving support in Sudan to people who otherwise would just have nothing. And when you make a tax deductible gift to the irc, you are contributing to one of the best rated charities in the world. For more than 90 years the IRC has been providing effective and efficient humanitarian aid to millions of families caught in a crisis worldwide. The irc, the International Rescue Committee, they really do the Lord's work. It is more important than ever. Given that Trump and his ked mean adult idiot coder friend Elon decided to destroy USAID I've proudly given to the IRC for years. I proudly will do so again. Incredible organization. If you're thinking about giving to a charity, please consider them as part of your donation. Donate today by visiting rescue.orgrebuild that's rescue.orgrebuild. All right, let's turn to China because there was some big news and some rampant speculation about China over the past couple weeks. So let's, let's, let's do the speculation first. So the speculative part was there was like a tweet, I think, that went viral over the weekend that said there was a coup attempt in Beijing. The gist of the story was that a bunch of top military leaders had planned to take out Chinese President Xi Jinping when he was staying at some hotel, but she got tipped off and foiled the coup hours in advance. And like, fun story, fun tweet, probably totally baseless, probably bullshit and made up. Or at least there is no, like actual reported evidence yet in China. Experts will tell you that there are often rumors like this in the run up to major party meetings, like the National People's Congress meeting that's happening in March. So that's probably what happened there. But the military purge piece of this was very real and very significant. So the latest victims are Zhang Yoshia, Chinese top military leader, and then Lu Jun Li, who's another general, a very senior general on China's Central Military Commission, or cmc. CMC oversees the entire Chinese military. Both these guys are now under investigation. And so the charges, as best we can understand them from like official announcements and then articles in state run media, are corruption, hurting combat readiness, and then undermining Xi Jinping in some way. And then the Wall Street Journal reported that, that Zhang is accused of leaking nuclear secrets to the United States, which I don't think anyone else has matched that reporting. It feels unlikely. I'm. Look, it would be. I'd be very impressed if the US Military or CIA had sources like that, but I don't think we do. But what makes this all so stunning? I mean, either way, he's getting prosecuted. And Zhang in particular was seen as a made guy. He is 75 years old, he's a princeling, meaning that like Xi Jinping, his father fought in the Chinese Civil War. Zhang and Xi have been friends since they were kids. Xi has promoted Zhang several times, like first to the CMC in 2012 and then to the Politburo in 2017, which means he was one of like two dozen of the most powerful people in the entire country. He has actual Combat experience from China's 1979 war with Vietnam. So the question everyone's asking is like, what is happening here? Like, how do we interpret this? And so the, the theories I've seen in the press, Ben, and from like analysts are one, maybe these guys are really were corrupt and they just decided to finally crack down on them. These, these two generals are apparently close, so the cases seem linked. The second theory I've seen is that Xi is angry about a lack of progress and either rooting out corruption at the PLA or, or in a lack of progress in preparing the Chinese military to take Taiwan seems possible. The third is just like a show of force by Xi ahead of a major party meeting. And that this is just the latest iteration of this broader military purge that has been described as the largest since Chairman Mao. And again, what's crazy about this, Ben, is that the CMC, this committee that's made up of six top military leaders that's supposed to oversee the 2 million strong plaque, now only has two members. And one of them is she. It's like she and some other random guy. Imagine disagreeing with him at the, at the meetings.
- [43:26]
C
Not a good idea.
- [43:27]
A
And then the fourth possibility, which is probably the most likely, is that no one knows the reasons. It's not been disclosed. And we'll never find out because nothing leaks at this level because everyone that senior in China knows that if you leak to the media, you will die. So, Ben, I know the nerd group chats were popping off over the weekend about all this. What do you think's going on? What do you think it tells us though, about Xi Jinping's power and leadership?
- [43:50]
C
Yeah, I mean, I'm on some nerd group chats and they were blowing up and I thought, is this about the game or, you know, is this about. No, there was like just, just people really excited about this.
- [44:00]
A
Their Super Bowl.
- [44:00]
C
Yeah, yeah, it's their Super Bowl. Look, I'd say a few things, and first of all, Xi Jinping, unsentimental guy you mentioned, he's known this guy for a while. I think we've learned that Xi Jinping cares about one person above all. First of all, people should know that he has kind of used the veneer of anti corruption investigations and purges to also purge his enemies and to consolidate power. This has been a pattern with him since he became the party leader in 2012, 2013. Periodically, he kind of cleans house in different places. And so it's always under the veneer of corruption. But you know, and I Should add, often the people are corrupt, but that's because like most of the Chinese. Yeah, yeah. Most of the Chinese leadership is made up of people that, let's just say they live a little better than government servant salary in a Communist party would suggest. So it's not hard to find corruption if you go looking for it. There's usually a. So I believe that even if there's some corruption involved here, there must be a political agenda behind it. I, I highly doubt that there was a coup plan that seems fanciful. I don't think that the PLA would be in a position to do that. So then I think what this is about at core, like whatever the internal dynamic was with the personalities is you have the Communist Party and the People's Liberation army is like fundamental to their strength, but, you know, has a, I don't want to say independence, but it's an institution that the party leadership occasionally eyes warily because, you know, military by definition has kind of their own power base. And this is Xi Jinping, which he's been doing for some time now, but really laying down the marker that there is absolutely no differentiation between me and the play. Like I am, I am the commander in chief and the, the people in those jobs are going to do whatever the fuck I want and whatever I say. And I just. That's the message to the party congress. That's the message to the world. This really is now like a one man ruling system more than is the kind of collective decision making of the Communist Party and the different, various factions within it. That was the case kind of when we were in government. So what does that mean? And actually, let me just add before we. And like they are more obviously repressive and more dictatorial. You know, we had purges here. We've been doing a lot of purging here in the US and we lie about our purges too. Like, you know, Pete Hexess said he had to fire the chairman of the Joint Chiefs and all these people because he wanted a warrior class. Well, no, it's because they were black and women and because they weren't magnet. You know, so beware of the high horse that you're on about this stuff. But I think the biggest question to me coming out of this is Taiwan and we don't know. I mean, part of what we keep seeing in China, I was saying to you before, like, we've seen them disappear, Foreign Minister, We've seen them disappear. Hu Jintao, who used to be president, country. Is this about Taiwan? Is this because Xi Jinping wants to move faster on Taiwan. Is this because he didn't like the plans he was getting on it? Like, like that's the thing that matters to the rest of the world is is she setting up to kind of have a more compliant, aggressive military in place that will do that?
- [47:05]
A
Yeah.
- [47:05]
C
And that just the fact that that could be the case is, Is worse.
- [47:10]
A
Unnerving.
- [47:10]
C
Is unnerving.
- [47:11]
A
Yeah. I mean, you can kind of like look at it one way and see like, okay, another example of this being Xi just having absolute authority over the country. But you squint at it another way and you're like, is this guy getting paranoid and kind of tyrannical and this is going to. He's getting older and badly for him. And then I do kind of. Look, I don't know. I don't know shit about the PLA and how it actually works because no one really does outside of it. But you know, you have to wonder what it means for Chinese military readiness to just fire all of the most senior, most experienced people. And also, I mean, I've always heard from analysts that this kind of younger crop of Chinese military leaders is even more anti United States than their, their bosses. They're not liberals, so it doesn't seem to bode well for us. Anyone?
- [47:54]
C
No. And part of what's so worrisome about it too is that again, the world wasn't perfect when we were in government. And I'm not even saying this to give us credit, I'm saying the world we inherited. You had military to military ties between the United States and China. You had some checks and balances in their system because it was a collective decision making system. Similarly, you had those contacts with the Russians and now you've got these three big superpowers who are becoming more aggressive, more top down, more hierarchical in all their decision making and less in communication with each other. And it's just that dynamic of Russia, China and the U.S. that worries me. We don't really know what's going on there unless it's absolutely crazy scenarios. True. And we recruited the head of the Chinese military. I don't buy that for a second. I don't buy it either, but that's what worries me. There's a lot of geopolitical tension, not a lot of understanding of what's going on inside each other's systems and not a lot of contact among them.
- [48:49]
A
Yeah, And China's making a lot of nukes, so that's.
- [48:52]
C
Yeah, they're hurrying that one up.
- [48:54]
A
Yeah, they're moving on. That One. All right, a couple of updates from Gaza, Ben. So the first is that the remains of the last Israeli hostage, a guy named Ron Gavili, has been returned. That is obviously good news and it should lead to the reopening of Gaza's Rafah crossing into Egypt. On Sunday, Netanyahu's office said that crossing would only be for pedestrians, but a path into Egypt would allow Gazans to get medical care outside of Gaza and for displaced Palestinians to return home. So that is incremental progress. But as we've discussed previously, like the situation on the ground in Gaza for anyone living there is incredibly dire. Just again, to quickly summarize, there is no ceasefire. For example, just last week there was an Israeli airstrike that killed three journalists in Gaza, including one guy who worked for CBS News as a cameraman. The Gaza Health Ministry says that Israeli forces have killed 486 Palestinians since the ceasefire went into effect. The international stabilization force that is supposed to keep the peace in Gaza still doesn't exist. No country has formally announced it will commit troops. Hamas hasn't even started disarming. And Israel occupies over half of the Gaza Strip. And there was a report, see this story that they just keep moving the so called yellow line that kind of demarcates Israel's line of occupation further and further into Gaza. So they just start taking more and more territory. So that kind of grim reality is why there were reports that Jared Kushner's PowerPoint presentation about the future of Gaza was being mocked everywhere you went by attendees at Davos, like at the bars afterwards, people were talking about how ridiculous it was. So we decided to pull together for you guys a super cut of some of Jared's speech. Let's watch.
- [50:30]
H
It was just over 100 days ago that we got the final deal done. And everyone was celebrating and joyous about the hostages coming home and the end to this long war that nobody thought was possible. And Steve and I were panicking, saying what do we do next? You know, how do you implement peace? And as you guys know, peace is a different deal than a business deal because you're changing a mindset. So let's see if these things work. They never usually work good. So quickly I'll go through this two year war, 90,000 confidence. There's over 60 million tons of rubble there and tens of thousands of fatalities. Huge, huge effort with the help of the, of the un. We've worked very, very well with them. This is why you need a new organization like the Board of Peace to work with the UN A lot of what President Trump spoke about that he's doing in America, we want to bring the same mindset, the same approach to a place like Gaza. In the beginning, we were toying with the idea of saying, let's build a free zone and then we have a Hamas zone. And then we said, you know what, let's just plan for catastrophic success. We Hamas signed a deal demilitarily. That is what we are going to enforce. People ask us what our plan B is. We do not have a plan B. New Gaza. It could be a hope, it could be a destination, have a lot of industry and really be a place that, that the people there can thrive, have great employment. Once this starts going, we think there should be 100% full employment and opportunity for everybody there. What the Board of Peace will have the ability to do if we're sexful with Gaza is really show how do you do peace implementation. Which is something that when we got this deal done, we didn't really, really find too much expertise or know how on how to do it. There'll be amazing investment opportunities. I know it's a little risky to be investing in a place like this, but we need you to come. Take faith, invest in the people, try to be a part of it. Let's focus on the positive stories and let's just calm down, turn a new chapter.
- [52:12]
A
Okay, so Ben, what I struggle with here is like I, yeah, look, Jared does not have an easy job, right. And I, and I get that like hard stuff sometimes requires kind of naive sounding optimism, right. But like my takeaway from watching the full PowerPoint was feeling like they're really skipping over basic, basic stuff like there are thousands of tons of unexploded bombs in that rubble. I don't really think that plan has a realistic plan or timeframe to get rid of all of it. I saw one official, a Gazan official, quoted as saying that in Gaza City alone, 150,000 meters of pipes and 85% of the water wells were destroyed in the fighting, which is leading to a public health nightmare because there's no sewage, what's the plan for addressing that problem in the short term, right, as all these people are getting sick, but also in the long term for rebuilding it. If Israel says that every pipe is a dual use product, which I understand why they do that, because Hamas made rockets out of pipes, but you got to get pipes in there to have a sewer system and then you've got hundreds of thousands of people living in tents and freezing to death, right? Like there's stories all the time about infants, toddlers, children, like, freezing to death in these tents. What is the plan to help them now? Like, why are we looking at the fucking George Jetson AI created like PowerPoint of this idiot, like ridiculous futuristic metropolis when the reality is, like people are dying in tents now and they can't get tent poles into Gaza because the Israelis say they could have a military use.
- [53:43]
C
The fact that that wasn't surprising that that happened at Davos doesn't eliminate how utterly disgusting an encapsulation of our times that presentation was. First of all, why is that guy there? He has no capacity to do any of this. He's only there because he's the son in law of the President. Right. There's no other qualification he has to do any of this. And I mean, this guy was owned, like when I was coming up, like a pink newspaper that his dad bought for him in New York called the New York observer, that had a circulation in the tens of thousands because you could get invited to good parties if you owned it. And now he's at Davos talking about building Abu Dhabi in the Gaza Strip. Right. Second thing is none of the oil.
- [54:32]
A
And gas revenue to pay for it.
- [54:33]
C
Yeah. And all these, you know, wealthy people and powerful people have to sit around and act like this is something that might happen in the physical universe, even though it's literally like fantasy camp for this guy, you know. The second thing is it's just so disgusting. Just bears. There is probably no more absolutely devastated place on earth than Gaza right to this day. You mentioned the ceasefire not being a real ceasefire. We still don't know what happened there. There are no international journalists. They're still not allowed in. Like this ceasefire, quote, unquote, was months ago. And you still, like a CNN reporter, New York Times reporter, or whoever it is, can't just go there and interview people and see what's going on.
- [55:22]
G
Right.
- [55:23]
C
They're still covering up the crime scene. Like the war crime scene is still behind yellow tape. A yellow, literally a yellow line that they're creating and pushing further into Gaza for Israeli control. And yet we're pretending like they're going to start construction on like skyscrapers and have 100% employment. There's no stabilization force, there's no way to clean the rubble, there's no way to count the dead. We don't even know what the death toll was in Gaza. And we're skipping ahead to this so he can get like a nice moment at Davos for himself and talk about the board of peace. And that leads to, like, the last thing. If you were to take that seriously, the only way that happens, anything remotely like that, that will never happen. For people who didn't have YouTube, it's a slide of, like, literally, it looks like Dubai or Abu Dhabi, which took, by the way, decades to build. But you would essentially have to clear all the Palestinians out, Right?
- [56:16]
A
Yep. There's an ethnic.
- [56:17]
C
You'd have to ethnically cleanse all of Gaza. And in the past, Kushner has talked about whether you go to the Negev Desert or maybe they'll go to Somaliland that Israel just recognized and probably as part of Israel, also pushing them out of the West Bank. And as Netanyahu said today in his speech that he reiterated his determination to control everything from the river to the sea. And he used that terminology. Right? And he said, including Gaza. So you'd basically be making all of that land Israel's, but maybe you'd carve out Gaza and some handshake deal between, you know, Jared Kushner and Donald Trump. And then what, you're going to build some skyscrapers? I mean, it's just an insane, inhumane plan. But just the fact that world leaders, I mean, the fact that that is possible as a presentation and that people, you know, have to sit and watch a slide that has border peace on the top of it, there's something so dystopian.
- [57:14]
A
Well, you know, him being like, we don't have a plan B. Well, actually, I think that's part of the problem, because when your plan A is ludicrous, not having a plan B is real problem. So, look, we're a pretty well known Kushner dislikers, but I want you to know that it's not just us that shares the skepticism of this proposal. I want to play a clip for you, Ben. This is from comedian and podcaster Tim Dillon, who is, like, conservative leaning. I think he supported Trump during the election, but is a touch less bullish on the Trump administration these days. This clip caught my eye.
- [57:43]
E
Jared Kushner, friend of the show, is working on the redevelopment of Gaza, and we wish him well and we wish him luck, because, by the way, this isn't easy to do. It is very hard to go kill a bunch of people and their families and then get them really excited to work in your hotels. This is not easy, I'm telling you, it's not an easy thing to do. It's hard to motivate your employees in a normal situation. Imagine if you'd killed all of their mothers it's bad. It is tough. I've worked these low level tourism jobs. It's tough. It's tough. You got to be like, we have a brand here. When the guest comes in, we focus on the guest experience. You know, they come in from the moment they step out of their car to the moment their head hits the pillow. We focus on the guest experience. You know, Now I know some of you are still mad about that thing we did with. To your family or whatever. You know, we get it. Hey, you know, a lot of us feel sorry about that, too. We all feel sorry about it. But we got to move on from that. Let's not. Let's. Let's leave that in 2025. Leave that energy in 2025. Miss me with that energy.
- [59:05]
A
I just, like, it's so nice to hear someone just call out, what bullshit. How stupid.
- [59:09]
C
It is.
- [59:09]
A
So crazy.
- [59:10]
C
I'm sorry. Like. Cause we hate. We don't. We're no fans of Jared Kushner. But. But actually, what is interesting about Jared Kushner, Steven Miller, is a malevolent fascist motherfucker, okay? Jared is just lives in another fucking planet, right?
- [59:26]
A
And is so arrogant.
- [59:27]
C
He's so arrogant. But here's the. The. The point. Cause he, you know, he makes the right point, which is we're not even. I'm not going to demean this plan by saying. Pointing out the security risk, which is like, yeah, like, these people on the right, don't forget, you know, they're still mad about, like, Hunter Biden's laptop not getting coverage. Imagine if all of your family was killed, right? And then you're suddenly supposed to accept Jared Kushner running your life, right? That Israeli. That's fucking bonkers, right? But the thing that this connects to the thing we were saying before about pushback. Jared gets his ass kissed everywhere he goes. You know, he believes that nobody believed peace is possible until you. Jared Kushner delivered it. Because that's what he's told by sycophants like the people that go to the premiere of the Milani documentary, but also by people like this 60 Minutes interview that he got. There was one gigantic blowjob after that thing, and that's a mistake, because it makes him believe he can do things like this. The reason you have to start telling these Trump people the truth to their face in the media is because if you don't, they're going to believe the smoke you blow up their ass.
- [60:34]
A
The dumb fucking PowerPoint. It's. It's a joke. It should be treated as a joke. And I don't want to be told that I'm not hopeful or I'm like, basically there. He's like, let, let's not, you know, everyone tone down the criticism. No, fudge off. You're playing a stupid, you're not qualified. Like, we're going to say as much. And it doesn't mean we don't want it to be successful. We do. Before we take a break, Ben, I want to tell you two fun updates. So, first of all, Crooked Media's newest book, hated by all the Right People, Tucker Carlson and the Unraveling of the Conservative Mind is out now. It's by one of our favorite journalists, Jason Sangerly, New York Times magazine writer, great person. He gives this fascinating, informative look at Tucker's political evolution and how that rise traces the rise of the MAGA movement and the fact that one political party in this country has lost its mind. He's getting amazing reviews from the Washington Post, the New York Times. He was on the New Yorkers podcast this week. If you want to hear more, I interviewed him for Pod Save America. You will love this book. Check it out. Go to crooked.combooks to buy your copy of Hated by All the right People. I promise you you'll read this thing in like two or three days. It is that good. Also, I mentioned earlier that the best thing you could do to help out Crooked Media as a company is to become a subscriber. Also, if you want more Pod Save America, we got a new show for you. So a few weeks back, we launched a new Pod Save America newsletter. This Thursday, we're launching something we're calling Pod Save America Only Friends, which is a new bi weekly show featuring a rotating cast of our hosts. We're going to dig deeper into the news of the day. We're going to test out some new takes. We're going to talk about things that didn't make it onto the Tuesday or the Friday Pod Save America. It's basically another shot at I hope.
- [62:03]
C
You guys are going to be wearing your clothes.
- [62:06]
A
What do you mean nude?
- [62:06]
C
I mean basically nude.
- [62:08]
A
Oh, only, only France.
- [62:10]
C
Well, get the pun.
- [62:11]
A
You know what? I don't know why it took me that long to get it. Yeah, the name makes no sense except that it was a fun pun. It tells you nothing about what the show is. Tells you nothing about what you're going to hear. It doesn't tell you about anything. Only friends. You got to be a subscriber to get it. Go to crooked.com friends subscribe, become a Friend of the Pod. Help us out here and you get a new subscription show that may or may not involve full frontal. Positive the world is brought to you by Quint. A new year, Colder days this is the moment your winter wardrobe really has to deliver. If you're craving a winter reset, start with pieces truly made to last season after season. Quince brings together premium materials, thoughtful design and enduring quality so you stay warm, look sharp, and feel your best all season long. Quince is everything you need. Men's Mongolian cashmere sweaters, wool coats, leather and suede outerwear that actually holds up to daily wear and still looks good. Their outerwear is especially impressive. Think down jackets, wool coats, and Italian leather outerwear that keeps you warm when it's actually cold. Each piece is made from premium materials by trusted factories that meet rigorous standards for craftsmanship and ethical production. By cutting out middlemen and traditional markups, Quint delivers the same quality as luxury brands at a fraction of the price. The result is classic styles. You'll love that hold up year after year. I got a ton of quint stuff. I got workout shirts. I have basics. I also bought several quint items to give as gifts for Christmas. Oh, a couple Mongolian sweaters for my mom. For Hannah. I got the Mongolian cashmere sweater for me. Nice. There you go. They look great. Super high quality and affordable. Refresh your winter wardrobe with quints. Go to quince.comworld for free shipping on your order and 365 day returns. Now available in Canada too. That's Q-U-I-N C E.comWorld free shipping and 365 day returns. Quince.comWorld Pod Save the World is brought to you by Hims. Ed is more common than you think. Simpler to treat than ever. The through hims, you can connect online with a licensed provider to access personalized treatment options discreetly and on your terms. John When I do these ad reads, I like to think about what story came before this and laugh a little bit. You know, some sort of horrible death and destruction followed by boner time. Trump trying to just get bigger land probably the Golden Dome. Through hims, you can access personalized prescription treatment options for ed if prescribed. HIMS offers access to ED treatment options ranging from from personalized products to trusted generics that cost 95% less than brand names if prescribed. You shouldn't have to go out of your way to feel like yourself. HIMSS brings expert care straight to you with 100% online access to personalized treatments that put your goals first. This isn't one size fits all. Care that forgets you in the waiting room with your health and goals. But first with real medical providers making sure you get what you need to get results. An erection. Yes, that's right. That's the subtext. Think of him as your digital front door that gets you back to your old self with simple 100% online access to trusted treatments for ED and more, all in one place. To get simple online access to personalized affordable care for ED, hair loss, weight loss and more, visit hims.comworld that's hims.comworld for your free online visit himss.comworld featured products include compounded drug products which the FDA does not approve or verify for safety, effectiveness or quality. Prescription required. See website for details, restrictions and important safety information. Actual price will depend on product and subscription plan. One thing we're still closely watching is Iran. So as listeners know, like, there were these massive protests in Iran started with these merchants who were mad about inflation and the economy. And it spread to the entire country. And there were calls for the for regime change. And then Trump was encouraging the protesters. He told protesters he'd rescue them if the regime cracked down. Then even after that crackdown, he encouraged them to take over Iran's institutions. And then the regime cracked down and massacred thousands of thousands of people. And Trump did nothing. And so we're learning more and more about how that crackdown occurred. The New York Times is really worth reading. Big report on it that was out earlier this week.
- [66:04]
C
Chilling.
- [66:05]
A
Yeah, really chilling. Lots of videos, lots of first person testimonial. Really worth your time. But some key dates are basically they have, they've reported that on January 9, the Supreme Leader told his National Security Council to crush the protest by any means necessary, and that security forces were told to shoot and kill with no mercy, and that by January 12, the whole thing was crushed. But again, the videos that are awful, like, horrifying beyond words. The official death toll from the government is 3,117. Human rights groups say it's thousands of thousands more. And then you have countless people like, hurt or blinded. So highly recommend reading the Times piece. But one of the reasons Trump didn't order a military strike on Iran was despite promising to intervene, he didn't have the military assets in place to do so. Now he does. On Monday, Trump told Axios that he now has a, quote, big armada next to Iran, bigger than Venezuela, end quote. This is a reference to the arrival in the Middle east of the USS Abraham Lincoln, which is an aircraft carrier that is being escorted by three warships that fire Tomahawk missiles. The US also sent a bunch of F15s to the Middle east, and they sent more Patriot and Thaad missile systems to the region that could be used to defend our bases there or defend Israel. So at the same time, though, you've got Trump saying, iran wants to talk. Iran wants to make a deal. I want to make a deal. Kind of like, same old, taking both sides. So the question bed is like, what is he going to do? Is he going to order airstrikes now that the protests are crushed? Like, listeners might be wondering, why on earth would he do that? And I don't know. I think the answer is Trump only cares about his legacy and being seen as a historic figure. And I'm sure Lindsey Graham is saying to him, look, you topple Maduro and then you topple the Supreme Leader in the Iranian regime. You are like the most historic president to ever.
- [67:43]
C
You're Reagan plus or something.
- [67:44]
A
You're Reagan plus. But, like, I don't know, what do you think's gonna happen? What are you watching for?
- [67:48]
C
So we. We should just say, clearly, what happened is horrific. Clearly the regime crushed peaceful protest and continues to kill protesters and harm protesters, and it's fucking terrible. And people should feel a sense of deep solidarity with Iranians who are risking everything. I mean, when you see that kind of crackdown, it also speaks to the courage of the people that are protesting. I would look for three potential things, right? You know, one is he puts them there to show force, and he kind of claims that they backed down, they canceled executions, like you said last time. Maybe there's some, you know, diplomatic process around the nuclear deal or whatever, like a new nuclear deal. The second scenario is the one I think I'm starting to take pretty seriously, which is actually a Venezuela scenario, which is this armada starts to blockade, Right? Because I think Trump, if he thinks something worked for him, he likes to do it again. And what would that look like? Well, you kind of blockade Iran. You try to cut off its ability to sell oil, maybe you start to seize tankers like we saw in Venezuela. And then maybe what he's talking about with a deal is he's going to try to decapitate the regime, he's going to try to kill the Supreme Leader in some kind of strike, or maybe kill a whole bunch of Iranian leaders in targeted airstrikes as probably a lot of Israeli intelligence on where those people are and try to find the Delsey Rodriguez inside. Maybe you don't think you're going to fly in the Shah or his son to take over. Maybe Trump's going to try to find somebody from within that system that will be his strongman, that he can say, I got rid of the regime, but really he's still dealing with the regime. I'm not. That sounds a lot easier than it is. The Iranian regime is a lot. An even bigger and more intense regime than the Venezuelan one. But I think that this might be something that he has in mind, because he thinks it worked from Venezuela, by the way. We still don't know that it worked from Venezuela. We'll see how that goes. And then the third thing is he goes there, he bombs some stuff. He kind of does it in a very calibrated way, though. So it's kind of messaging to the Iranians, like, hey, I gotta do this to save face. Don't hit us back too hard, because we're just gonna get out of here. And then everybody moves on with their lives. The Iranian regime's still there. Trump's look like a big, tough guy, and that's it. Which is, by the way, what happened in the 12 Day War. So the new scenario is the decapitation one is kind of a Maduro, like operation. And I would take that seriously as a possibility. And again, I think that's a terrible idea. Not because I don't have solidarity with the Iranian protesters. I do. But I'm just asking you to look at our track record. I don't trust Donald Trump to govern this country. I certainly wouldn't.
- [70:31]
A
Yeah, put Marco Rubio in charge of another country. Yeah. Look, and the risk here is like, you put all these military assets into the region, people start, the pressure builds to do something with them. Kind of like what happened in Venezuela. I guess we'll find out. Two more things. So folks here know that we're not big fans of FBI Director Kash Patel. He's not qualified to do the job. He's a liar. He's more interested in social media and kind of like fucking around and doing his job. And so Ben and I eagerly read this big New York Times Magazine piece on Cash's first year in charge at the FBI. It was mostly kind of like a sobering, frightening look at the various absurdities and ways that abuses happening under his watch are weakening the FBI and the politicization of the entire organization. But there are also some hilarious details about what a loser he is. So here's one, Ben. Back in May, Cash was scheduled to attend a secret conference of the Five Eyes. It was happening in London.
- [71:22]
C
Oh, God.
- [71:23]
A
The Five Eyes. It's an intelligence alliance between the us, the uk, Canada, Australia, New Zealand. Apparently, the trouble started when Cash seemed to misunderstand that this was a work event and not a vacation. And so instead of boring meetings, he wanted activities like he wanted to go to a Premier League soccer game, he wanted to go jet skiing, and he wanted a helicopter tour. And according to this source, quote, his staff only cared about three things. What his meals were, what his workouts would be, and what his entertainment would be. Be. End quote. There's also a little power struggle over a private photo taken of some of these intel officials with the King of England, because some of them are undercover, they're undisclosed. And Cash wanted to post the photo on social media because he's a teenager. And then we learned more detail about the ways that Cash helped bungle the manhunt for Charlie Kirk's killer for those first few days. So apparently there was like an agency coordination call as the manhunt was ongoing. Usually it's like experts laying down facts and they're trying to figure out how best to pursue the case. But here is how it was described in the piece. Patel and Bodgino started talking about their Twitter strategy, and Cash is like, I'm going to tweet this, Salt Lake. You tweet that, Dan, you come in with this, then I'll come back with this. They're literally scripting out their social media, not talking about how we're going to respond or resources or the situation. He's screaming that he wants to put stuff out, but it's not even vetted yet. It's not even accurate. Remember, he was putting out disinformation about the case, claiming they caught somebody when they hadn't. And then last thing, Ben, there was a Vanity Fair piece on Cash's girlfriend, who's this, like, wannabe country music star. And it was mostly boring, but the funniest part about it was I didn't realize that she's got this kind of like, salt of the earth, camo wearing country singer Persona. But her dad was an executive at Gillette and she lived in the UK for a while and even went to a school, Swiss boarding school, that was described as posh. Yeah, so fitting.
- [73:13]
C
Yeah, really drinking beer and eating chicken wings.
- [73:16]
A
Yeah, exactly Right. Any takeaways about our guy Cash?
- [73:19]
C
Yeah, I think first of all, the stuff at Premier League was great in wanting all these events because there are these different permutations of Trump officials. There are the complete dyed in the wool. Joseph Goebbels fascists like Stephen Miller who want to impose like a white supremacist fantasy. There are the grifters like Jared and Steve Witkoff, and people getting rich on World Liberty financial and crypto schemes.
- [73:45]
A
What's the nickname for Bevino? One. Third Reich.
- [73:48]
C
Yeah. Yeah. There you go. And then there's just people that are, like, living fantasy camp, you know, like Cash. He goes to Quantico to do stuff with the agents. He wants to wear gear, like, everywhere.
- [74:02]
A
He goes, the windbreaker.
- [74:03]
C
But the substantive thing that jumped out to me from this piece that should be alarming to Americans and again, speaks to the fact that a lot of the damage of the Trump administration is going to show up in the medium term and the long term, and they'll try to pass the buck for it, is they're dismantling the FBI's capabilities in all these other spaces. And there are a lot of these agents who are getting fired, who are quoting this story, who are like, nobody's working on, you know, cyber anymore. Nobody's working on cartels anymore.
- [74:26]
A
20% of the workforce is doing immigration enforcement.
- [74:29]
C
They're doing immigration enforcement. You got FBI agents and they're counting arrests that are, like, actually made by other agencies.
- [74:34]
A
Yeah. They just happen to be there on the scene.
- [74:35]
C
Yeah. And so this. This. This domestic police and intelligence force that is supposed to stop terrorist attacks, fight cartels, disrupt cyber attacks, all these things is basically becoming this, like, extension of Trump and Casper's personal interests, like ICE and cbp, basically. You are not. You are less safe because of that. And I think it's very useful that this is being cataloged, because when you know, whether it's cartel violence, terrorist violence, cybercrime, like, you'll know that one of the reasons why that stuff is gonna start getting worse is cause, like, literally, he's taken the cops off the beach.
- [75:12]
A
Yeah. Cause Cash had to take the PJ to Nashville to see his girlfriend sing it.
- [75:17]
C
There's a SWAT team in Nashville that all they do is follow her around.
- [75:19]
A
It's crazy.
- [75:20]
C
Yeah.
- [75:20]
A
It's absolutely insane. Finally, Ben, a couple times a day, I think you and I both, like. You're scrolling through Twitter, you see something, and you basically just want to, like, throw your phone into the ocean and then maybe run after it and stay down there. Here's one example. I saw an image promoting. You and I both shared this with each other the. The upcoming Riyadh Real Estate Future Forum. This is an event where, according to their PR materials, quote, thought leaders from across the globe gather to tackle pressing challenges, uncover emerging trends, and redefine business models that will shape the industry's next chapter. Here are some of the speakers in the lineup. Hillary Clinton is doing a talk that will frame, quote, real estate and infrastructure as downstream expressions of governance credibility and sustained global alignment. I have no idea what any of that gibberish means. Tucker Carlson will talk about how, quote, how media platforms influence public understanding at moments of political, economic and social transition. I guess he is an expert on how media platforms can spread disinformation and rip our country apart from. And then their additional speakers include Bill Clinton, Tony Blair, Boris Johnson, Piers Morgan, Richard Branson, John Kerry, and then like.
- [76:25]
C
Everybody, I think David Cameron's making an appearance. Oh, good.
- [76:27]
A
David Cameron and then like 100 Deloitte executives for some reason. So the conference is happening as Riyadh is finally allowing foreign developers to apply for projects in Saudi Arabia. Like, okay, great, but let's be real, like, that's not what this is. And it's also, it's worth noting that as long as we're talking about real estate, the Financial Times just reported that the idiotic 110 mile long single building megacity project called the line that we've been pillorying on this show for years now has been, quote, radically scaled back. Who could have seen that coming? We did. But Ben, like the takeaway, it's a.
- [77:00]
C
Data center now, I think.
- [77:01]
A
Oh really?
- [77:02]
C
I think I saw a report that it's going to be a data center. Yeah, yeah. The line's going to be a data center. Yeah, perfect.
- [77:10]
A
Here's my takeaway.
- [77:11]
C
Maybe it's the data center that wrote the AI TO is going to be those speeches.
- [77:15]
A
Yeah, that's good. That's. That's the. Or Elizia wrote the marketing materials.
- [77:18]
C
Certainly the marketing. That. That sounded like a very first draft of ChatGPT.
- [77:21]
A
It sure did. Here's the thing. I, Boris Johnson, Piers Morgan, like, I have no God bless you. Whatever they do, they do it. Hillary Clinton, Bill Clinton, Secretary Kerry, Tony Blair, Richard Branson, of all people, you. Do you really need this fucking money? Is this money worth the reputational hit to you? Because like, you are rich. You. You don't need to Buddy up to MBS. I realize we lost this fight. 2018 was a long time ago. Nobody's talking about Jamal Khashoggi anymore. But like, it's gross and it's embarrassing for you and it makes the government look bad. It makes the Democratic party look bad. And you don't need to do this. You don't need to go to this event.
- [77:58]
C
I think you're absolutely right. And look, I'll try to kind of even meet halfway where some other people might be in the sense that like, I get it. We live in the world as it is. Titled my first book, Mark Carney. Like dropping the phrase, right? No, well, it's just my realism says, yeah, Saudi Arabia, we're gonna be dealing with them. I get it. The 2018 moment's gone. I also get that ex officials give paid speeches and get paid to do it. Still. You don't need to go Bill and Hillary Clinton or John Kerry, the guy dismembered a job. Well, there's that, but there's also just the Democratic parties. We all, every postmortem of the election, the last several elections is like, we're seen as like too close to the global elites and we're out of touch with the working class. And you're really gonna sit here just like Clintons and post about the need to stand up for the working class or need for middle class economics or we're against authoritarianism. We're against authoritarianism. We stand up for democracy. Hillary had a post. It's a good year to fight for democracy. I remember on years. And then you're going to be on a poster for the Saudi Real Estate Development conference with Boris Johnson. I mean, that doesn't just impact your reputation, it impacts the entire Democratic Party's reputation. It really does. And you don't need that money. Like, how is your life going to be materially different without that particular speaking fee? And by the way, I'm not saying don't do any of it either. Like, I get it.
- [79:39]
A
Do whatever. Just don't do a fucking Saudi conference. I'm sorry. It was disgusting when there was a comedy festival there. Yeah, this is gross too.
- [79:45]
C
Someone vet sings and just says, you know, we don't need to do that one. You know, like that, that's fine. We can do the, you know, whatever the other one is. You go, I. It just you got to be able to some things draw a line.
- [79:56]
A
That's all I'm asking. Depressing Ben. Okay.
- [80:00]
C
And by the way, but this is another one last thing. What are they getting out of? Like, do you really think any of the people attending. It's so funny to me, the people that because they pay these fees, because they like that they come to Riyadh. Is anybody in that audience going to come out smarter about real estate because of anything that any of those politicians say?
- [80:16]
A
Yeah.
- [80:17]
C
And I'm not hitting the politicians on that. It's just like they're going to go mail in these speeches. It's so funny to me that people go to these things and listen to stuff.
- [80:24]
A
You know, Tony Blair's like, you got to use vinyl siding.
- [80:26]
C
Yeah. Yeah.
- [80:27]
A
Under the semblance, that's how you repel heat.
- [80:29]
C
You're really going to learn something. Sheetrock is Boris. Let's we'll stop picking on the Americans. Is Boris Johnson really going to tell you something that is useful for your real estate?
- [80:38]
A
I'm talking about brass pipes. Why they're the way. It's ridiculous. It's a. It's a joke. It's a boondoggle. It's stupid.
- [80:44]
C
Everybody knows.
- [80:45]
A
Everyone knows it. Okay, that's it for the news portion of the show, but stick around for my interview with Ken Thorzen, the author of the book Polar Submarine Spies and the Struggle for Power in a Melting Arctic. We talk about Greenland, the Arctic, why the United States might actually want to have more access there. So really good conversation. Listen up. Positive the world is brought to you by Rocket Money. What is the most ridiculous subscription or hidden fee you discovered you were paying for? Hannah and I signed up to some international streaming service to watch one episode of one show, then forgot about the show. This is during the pandemic. And then forgot about the subscription. And I forgot about it for like four years. I subscribed to. I got like a Nintendo Wii, like two places I live to go and like you have to subscribe to something to get more games or whatever. I don't know what the hell it was, but I couldn't figure out until Rocket Money. I couldn't figure out how to even cancel the subscription. Like I was trying to get the emails, but like then you need a code for something. Rocket it is outrageous how hard they make it to cancel stuff. Rocket Money is a personal finance app that helps find and cancel your unwanted subscriptions, monitors your spending, and helps lower your bills so you can grow your savings. Rocket Money allows you to track subscriptions and cancel them within the app with just a few taps, saving you time and helping you avoid charges. You can even categorize automatic transactions across your accounts and customize categories with tags to help shed light on your spending patterns, set budgets and goals, get personalized insights and regular reports on your spending habits. You can even receive real time alerts for large transactions, upcoming bills, refunds, and low balances. The Rocket Money app can even consolidate your checking, savings, loans and investment accounts into a single dashboard to give you a clear picture of your finances. Let rocket money help you reach your financial goals faster. Join@RocketMoney.com World that's RocketMoney.com World RocketMoney.com World Pod Save the World is brought to you by Simplisafe. When it comes to home security, you want to feel like you picked the system that actually keeps trouble away, not one that just tells you something bad has already happened. That's why you need Simplisafe home security. It's not just another alarm. It's designed to help stop crime before it starts. SimpliSafe uses AI powered cameras outside your home to spot real threats and instantly alert live agents. And this is what makes it different from the rest. These agents actually take action while the intruder is still outside. They talk to them through the camera. They let them know they're being watched and the police are on the way. And if needed, they can blast a siren and light them up with a spotlight. Other systems might give you a camera and a notification, but they need you to see the alert and handle it. Simplisafe's monitoring agents have your back even when you're busy, asleep or on a plane. They're protecting over 5 million Americans and have been named best home security systems by U.S. news World Report for five years in a row. As you guys know, John Levitt set up a Simplisafe all by himself. He said it was incredibly easy to do, gave him peace of mind when he was away or when he was home, frankly. You can turn it on and off from your phone. The app is really great. The technology is both, you know, advanced but also easy to do yourself. And right now you can get 50% off any new system this month only. It's a great time to upgrade to security that actually helps stop crime before it starts. Go to SimpliSafe.com CrookedWorld that's simply safe.com CrookedWorld there's no safe like Simplisafe. Foreign I'm excited to be joined by Kenneth R. Rosen, the author of the book Polar Submarines, Spies in the Struggle for Power in a Melting Arctic, which came out earlier this month. As a foreign correspondent, he's reported from all over the world. Places like Iraq, Syria, Ukraine. And for this book, he traveled all over the Arctic via, among other modes of transportation, a 12 seater plane, a Norwegian icebreaker, a US Coast Guard cutter. Sounds like a hell of an adventure reporting out this book. Kenneth, great to meet you.
- [84:28]
G
Yeah, thanks for having me, man. It's great to be here.
- [84:30]
A
Thank you for doing the show coming in all the way from Massachusetts, which is also a bit snowy at the moment. But enough about that. So earlier on the show, Ben and I, my co host, dug into Trump's like, framework for a future deal with respect to Greenland, whatever that means. I'm wondering if you can kind of help us break through the bullshit and outlined for listeners why one, like a rational person, might see value in the Arctic and in Greenland and what the strategic importance of those places are for the US or other great powers.
- [85:02]
G
Right now, I think Greenland is a stand in for the importance of the circumpolar north writ large and the lack of American visibility in that region. So with respect to Greenland specifically, I feel as though the Trump administration hasn't focused enough on Central Europe and Indochina. And what we'll probably see out of Greenland's framework, quote unquote, that he struck up with the Secretary General NATO, will be similar to how he ramped up taxes and tariffs on China, only to bring it back down to a negotiated deal to the same rate that it was before he was president and claim a victory. So we already have a lot of access to Greenland's minerals, which is a primary function of their location in the high north and the melting Arctic, providing for access to rare earth minerals and oil and natural gas, and among other things, a lot that would go to benefiting our national defense industries and also our so called push for renewable energy sources. But when it comes down to it, the framework seems to me to be something that'll eventually end up being akin to what we already have, which is an agreement to lease a military base in the north of the country and carte blanche to be able to mine and explore and get extractive industries into the country, Greenland, wherever we want. So whether or not it's a real win, I don't believe it will be. I think it'll be more of the same that we see now, just packaged and presented differently.
- [86:34]
A
Yeah. So obviously, I mean, I think everyone listening to this show thinks climate change is bad. It's an ecological disaster. I don't want to live underwater. Neither do you. But as the world heats up and the polar ice caps melt, what are the economic and military opportunities for the United States, for the Russians, for the Chinese that has everybody scrambling to get more access to the Arctic.
- [86:55]
G
Well, isn't it interesting to see so many nation states virtually agreeing that climate change exists by virtue of going after access to the north? Right. So for all President Trump's bellicose rhetoric about climate change not being real, there's an admission there underneath it all to say, well, something's happening up north and we're going to go after it. But with the Arctic region warming four to five times faster than the rest of the world, we're seeing more and more maritime activity in the north that comes in the form of both commercial and cruise passageways, passages that are, that are going through the Northwest Passage and also the Northeast Passage. And that's the most concerning part for the US Is the way that Russia has teamed up with China in order to open up what China's called a polar Silk Road. Right. So they're having more and more liquid natural gas shipments and more and more access to an area that otherwise would have been ice bound for most of the year. It would also potentially, the way Russia's selling it, shorten the, the current commercial vessel traffic through the Suez canal instead further 14 to 10 days over the top of Russia. So it would be a boon to industries in the maritime sphere. But we're also seeing the effects of climate change displacing indigenous communities. And those indigenous communities have historically protected and offered access to natural resources in our own backyard in Alaska. So while it's displacing people, we're also seeing nations rush up there in the hopes of perhaps claiming stake to long ice bound resources and opportunities for expansion.
- [88:32]
A
Yeah. So, you know, I think Trump is right when he says Russia's been getting, been pretty busy in the Arctic. They've been reviving and modernizing old bases. I believe Russia has big nuclear powered icebreakers.
- [88:47]
G
Quick quiz. How many does the US have?
- [88:50]
A
0.
- [88:51]
G
1. And it's often under repair in Seattle. And China has already turned out about 12 northward or 12 in the last several years. And it's not that Russia's now making its stance in the Arctic. It's always been an Arctic nation. I mean, it's the largest Arctic stakeholder by virtue of geography and the fact that 60% of its country is underlain by permafrost. So it's a, it's a big deal for climate change for the Russians. For the Russian Federation, it's something of an existential threat to both their national security and to their production of liquid natural gas and oil and their bastion defense in the north. Their Russian, the Russian nuclear fleet is based in the Arctic. So Russia's been there for a long time. And then the most, the two most recent national security frameworks for the state's national security strategies have said that China is a pacing threat, but fail to mention the notion that Russia's been there a Long time. And there's no catching up to them. We have to just work with them and understand that they are there and we are nowhere near being there.
- [89:55]
A
Well, yeah, so, I mean, yes, they're way ahead. What is the truth about China's presence? Because, you know, they call themselves a near Arctic state. Trump worries a lot about Chinese presence in the Arctic. But then I saw, I think, a former head of NATO say he hadn't seen a Chinese naval ship in the Arctic for a decade. So it's like, what the hell does it mean to be near Arctic? How much should we be concerned about what China's doing?
- [90:18]
G
So I don't know about the Arctic writ large. I mean, there are Chinese vessels off the coast of Alaska frequently conducting naval exercises with the Russian military and the Russian naval fleet, which is more concerning because, like you noted, they're just not in Greenland, they're not around Greenland. They have paired up with Russia to open up this north, northern sea, northeastern sea route. But you have to also recognize, as I'm sure you do, that Russia doesn't want to welcome in a hostile nation into its backyard as well. So while it's relying on them, China, to fund some of the development along the coastline in the hopes of having infrastructure for this proposed sea route, they also don't want to give away too much of what is their sovereign territory. So they're not a threat in the way that Trump and the White House have, have messaged it, as they are a threat in other parts, primarily in the Arctic Ocean to the north of Russia, and then also off our maritime borders with Russia off Alaska.
- [91:21]
A
Got it. A big theme in the book is you talk about how far behind the US Military is in the Arctic. I mean, there's challenges with infrastructure, there's lack of training for, you know, cold weather warfare, the general lack of focus on the region. At the Pentagon, it does seem like, you know, we're now more interested in bombing Venezuela and maybe Iran. Stay tuned. I guess, like, what do we need to do? What does the US need to do to catch up in the Arctic or to be prepared for sort of like cold weather, whatever. And what's at stake, do you think, if we do not.
- [91:50]
G
I think in order to prepare the US to be more of an Arctic nation as it was during the Cold War, we have to work more regularly with our partners who are Arctic nations who do have military units stationed in the high North. Regularly. We have the 11th Airborne Division, but. But they are often relegated to, I guess, now potentially going to Minnesota and Minneapolis and helping ICE detain illegal aliens. So there's no real American fighting force that is solely focused on Arctic warfare and cold weather warfare. And when we do send troops over to train with our partners in NATO who have Arctic territory, we're, it's often very quick and very short. And then those same soldiers are deployed to the Pacific or the Middle east and they lose all of that knowledge of how to operate in the North. I think what's at stake is, is our, is not only the transatlantic partnership by virtue of these training exercises and shared knowledge exercises with our partners who are better at it, but just a sense of identity in the North. We had prided ourselves on being an Arctic nation because of Alaska, because, because we built the Trans Alaska pipeline, because we were able to have that petroleum reserves that would benefit us in the case of a global catastrophe. Now we're just sort of puttering around without the resources and the abilities, the infrastructure to operate up there. We don't even have a deep water port in the Arctic. The one that's being built in Nome is not going to be done for 10 years. So I don't think we're ever going to catch up. I think we have to really rely on these partners who have helped us in the past. And there's some great stories in the book that highlight how much we've leaned on them, our partners, to get stuff done in the Arctic to move forward in a more productive way.
- [93:40]
A
Who's good up there? Who should we lean on?
- [93:42]
G
Like the Finland Norway man. I mean Norway, we also, we have the Americans, us, we them have most of our NATO listening posts that are giving us intelligence on what Russia is currently doing. Both on the Kola Peninsula we, where the Russian nuclear fleet is stationed, but also deeper into the country. All that infrastructure is based in Northern Norway. We also position Reaper drones and military units in the north of Norway continuously. But we also are threatening the sovereignty of another NATO member and denigrating and degrading that relationship. So the Norwegians are phenomenal. I embedded with the Swedish armed forces. They were phenomenal and they all had a coolness about the way they operated in the North, a real comfort level. But then when I embedded with the Americans both in Alaska and in the Arctic Ocean, it just seemed that they were beaten down and weathered, literally and figuratively.
- [94:37]
A
That's not good. You sort of mentioned this at the top. I'm curious what your conversations were like with people who actually live in the Arctic, particularly indigenous folks who make up about 10% of the population. I Mean, what do they make of this, like, kind of all of a sudden being seen as, you know, a pawn of this battle between superpowers and Trump yelling about, you know, Greenland and whatever.
- [94:59]
G
I mean, it's, it's demeaning, it's demoralizing. Especially when their focus had many of their separate communities. And we're talking about indigenous groups that run the gamut of Inuit to Inupiaq. All them in between have been looking for independence and a connection to the government to facilitate their needs, to maintain their sustenance lifestyles, subsistence lifestyles that have been degraded by climate change and also the incursion of industry. So when you have a president who's talking about taking a sovereign nation and that Nation had since 2008, sought to reach self determination and independence from the Kingdom of Denmark, that sidelines the whole discussion and their whole journey toward the same democracy that the US has purported to want for other countries around the world. And that's the most demeaning part. They've, they've now been cast aside almost a second time, both when they were colonized and now again when they're forced to almost be recolonized.
- [96:06]
A
Yeah, it's, it's horrible. I mean, final question for you. I mean, you spent years on this book. You were all over the Arctic, you know, traveling to incredibly difficult to reach places. I imagine it was grueling, but at times really cool. Was there like a moment or an experience or a thing? You witnessed a beluga whale that stepped up and said hi that you kind of remember that you could tell us about?
- [96:29]
G
I think the most daunting and impressing thing that I experienced was when I was embedded with the Norwegian Coast Guard and they asked me if I wanted to do a fisheries inspection. And the Arctic Ocean is in a calm ocean. It was cold and it was windy. And we boarded a small, little 10 foot, 15 foot vessel in order to reach the, the, the trawler that we were going to go inspect. And we pull away from the icebreaker headed toward the trawler, and both ships disappear because the waves came so high. And we sunk to the bottom of the wave crest and couldn't see anything. And we pull up to the trawler and all the crew, the three of us or the four of us and me included, looked at each other like, all right, we're jumping onto the pilot's ladder. And I was like, okay, I've never done that. And one after another, jump off the front of the boat and hop onto a ladder. And as they do that. The small boat pulls away in reverse so that if you fall, you don't crack your head open on the small boat, but you go into the water and hopefully they could save you that way. So it came up to my turn and you know, the whole book was laid out in front of me. I had many other trips ahead of me. I had all these other interviews lined up and I said, well, you know, I got two kids at home and if I don't make this, it's not that the book doesn't come out. I'll just look like an idiot in front of the Norwegian Coast Guard. It only solidify this notion about Americans being incapable in the Arctic. But I stuck the landing and I crawled up the ladder and made it onto the ship and I felt like the rest of the book would, would come together in the same way just through sheer grit and will.
- [98:09]
A
My God, I think we've all seen those viral tiktoks of, you know, the North Sea or whatever and you know, 60 foot waves and hurricane like conditions. Absolutely not. I would have thrown up so many times. Were you, were you puking off the side?
- [98:22]
G
I puked on a boat off the coast of Greenland during a really bad storm. But that was the only time it was. I was in a berth and the birth was maybe nine feet long and I'm about six and a half feet tall and I just remember toe head, toes head being jerked back around in this little birth and it was. It's a real humbling experience though. I mean, when you travel and you experience these other, these other places and the way people live there, you come back to your, you know, comfortable lifestyle and realize that you have it really, really good.
- [98:55]
A
Amen to that. That is good perspective and it also helped birth an incredible book. Polar Submarine Spies in the Struggle for Power in a Melting Arctic. Buy it right now. Kenneth R. Rosen, thank you for joining the show.
- [99:06]
G
Thanks, man.
- [99:09]
A
All right, thanks again to Kenneth Rosen for joining the show and talk to you guys next week. Pod Save the World is a crooked media production. Our senior producer is Alona Minkowski. Our producer is Michael Goldsmith. Our associate producer is Anisha Banerjee. We get production support from Saul Rubin. Our executive producers are me, Tommy Vitor and Ben Rhodes. The show is engineered, mixed and edited by Jordan Kanter. Audio support by Kyle Seglin and Charlotte Landis. Thank you to our digital team. Ben Hefcoat, Mia, Kelman Williams, Liam Jones, David Toles and Ryan Young. Matt de Groat is our head of production. Adrian Hill is our senior Vice President of News and Politics. If you want to listen to Pod Save the World ad free and get access to exclusive podcasts, go to crooked.com friends to subscribe on Supercast, Substack, YouTube or Apple Podcasts. Don't forget to follow us at Crooked Media on Instagram, Tick Tock and Twitter for more original content, host takeovers and other community events. Please subscribe to Pod Save the world on YouTube for access to full episodes, bonus content, content and much more. And if you're opinionated like us, leave a review Our production staff is proudly unionized by the Writers Guild of America East.
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B
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